paleontology

[white matrix]

Nah black caimans get big

[bright veldt]

Yeah they get to the size of alligators

[white matrix]

Biggest gator was around 16 feet iirc

[bright veldt]

Jaguars also get eaten by South America’s crocodile species

[clever sable]

Largest black Caiman was 14 feet iirc

[white matrix]

On point

[clever sable]

You talking about Orinocos or American crocodiles? (Yes I know American crocodiles don't really make it into south America but they still get to central America)

[bright veldt]

They’re in South America. And either really? They get to about the same size.

[chilly knot]

Morelets have killed subadult jags

[clever sable]

Wait what is it then?

[stiff osprey]

The largest black caiman reliably recorded was 18 ft (17 with part of the tail missing)

Replied to the wrong comment, mb

[white matrix]

Holy

[clever sable]

Ain't no way

[stiff osprey]

A large yacare that happens to be black, you can see the little palpebral crest things

[chilly knot]

sounds like UF 53600

[feral arrow]

Dang so if that caiman was 12.5 feet the Jaguar being generally close in size must have been 10 feet long and seeing how jaguars typically grow up to 6 feet that's a record breaking Jaguar

[white matrix]

I mean they are the top predators

[white matrix]

Wasn’t a big caiman that’s why

[bright veldt]

Black Caiman’s are probably the top dog of the Amazonian top predators if we look at it realistically

[snow python]

How big is the largest ceratosaurus specimen?

[stiff osprey]

3.8 m is pretty big for the species overall. But it is a freak occurrence and the report was not from people who saw the attack happen

[bright veldt]

AFAIK the largest verified individual is 7m and a ton, but I think there’s an undescribed one that’s bigger?

[clever sable]

Black caimans are cool IG but uhhh, alligators better fr fr

[gray ruin]

I have been summoned

[clever sable]

I'm still not buying the 18 foot black Caiman until I see a source though

[gray ruin]

Ye, the one by Dante Fenolio who is a biologist. Seems reliable.

[light osprey]

Somehow even ecology turns into size debates

[feral arrow]

Yeah I highly doubt that caiman is more than 8 feet

[gray ruin]

Skull is large enough too with a reported premaxilla-articular length of 31 inches which is close to the premaxilla-articular length of UF 53600.

[gray ruin]

Jaguars in Mamiraua are small, and Jaguars have been known to take on large Black caimans.

[green narwhal]

Black caimans have been identified as jaguar prey specie

[bright veldt]

I’ve never heard of either species actually attacking each other, but large black caiman are in the size range to where I’m betting on them over the cat

[clever sable]

Yeah, I'm a massive crocodilian fan but jaguars do kill decently sized black Caimans

[bright veldt]

Again, Jaguar are taken by crocodiles

[clever sable]

Black caimans aren't crocodiles

[green narwhal]

There are no recorded instances of melanosuchus attacking jaguars

[gray ruin]

There are countless records of Jaguars preying on Black caimans lol. Even Medem reports that it is not uncommon for Jaguars to take on Black caimans.

[bright veldt]

Is there a source on this for later reference I can have? Doesn’t need to be anything big

[green narwhal]

Young jaguars have been killed in 3 occasions iirc by morelet's crocodiles

[gray ruin]

I have many in my server, hold on

[light osprey]

Pretty cool looking animal

[snow python]

7m c. dentisulcatus or c. nasicornis?

[clever sable]

Jaguars are the only cool big cat

[bright veldt]

C. nasicornis is the only valid species. Dentisulcatus were just older and properly mature nasicornis

[gray ruin]

Medem(1981)
Silveira et al.(2010)
Hayward et al. (2016)

[feral arrow]

I wouldn't say large at all actually every video I've seen of jaguars hunting and killing caiman the caimans were smaller or slightly larger in length than the Jaguar which grows to a average 5-6 feet

[white matrix]

Fr gator/deino supremacy

[compact leaf]

jaguar hunting style and what they take is also hugely variable by locality, there’s a population that specializes in giant anteater when most jaguar wont go anywhere near them

[bright veldt]

Jaguar are kind of built to take on bigger prey than what’s usually available

[white matrix]

Liger

[gray ruin]

Also this case where a FEMALE mamiraua Jaguar took on a 3 meter Black caiman

The carcasses of preys killed by jaguars were of species frequently found in feces. Five spectacled caimans, two black caimans, two three toed sloths and a duck were identified. The black caimans were a young and an adult, with 1.5 m and 3 meters in total length respectively.
The black caiman carcasses were found on the shore of a lake and were only five meters apart. These two prey were consumed in the same period, and signs of struggle in the grass, in the flooded area next to where the carcasses were found, rule out the hypothesis that they were consumed as carrion. From the footprints found at the site, at least three distinct jaguar individuals were identified, which used the site at the same time. Probably these footprints were from a mother with two sub-adult cubs..

[light osprey]

Hey that’s pretty cool as well, do they attempt adults as well?

[bright veldt]

Ground sloths were a large part of their diet in the Pleistocene

[green narwhal]

Jaguars mostly hunt yacaré caimans which are more abundant than black caimans. But, largest black caiman killed was 3.8m which is an asymptotic size for males

[gray ruin]

I don't care what you would say. The videos you've seen are only Jaguar predation on Yacare caiman in the Pantanal.

[compact leaf]

in most populations no, in that one I think they still mostly go for younger ones but they get more adults than anywhere else

my point is though that it’s hugely variable whether or not a jaguar will attempt to take a caiman or other prey item, some populations won’t try it and others will

[bright veldt]

AFAIK most populations aren’t caiman eaters

Instead they get things like deer, collared peccary, and capybara

I said collared peccary specifically cause from what I heard white-lipped peccaries are a menace

[light osprey]

Makes sense

[gray ruin]

Also this asymptotic Black caiman killed by a Jaguar.

[green narwhal]

the diet varies, yes

[gray ruin]

Yes, they prefer mammalian prey, but since Caimans are plentiful they have no problem taking on them ( especially in the Pantanal ).

[green narwhal]

Some prefer domestic ungulates

[light osprey]

Speculative hell creek ecology, imagine if certain populations specialised in hunting Ankylosaurids (populations of Tyrannosaurus that is)

[bright veldt]

We have that tarbosaurus diet study

[gray ruin]

R.I.P baby Black caiman

[bright veldt]

The favored prey was hadrosaurs and sauropods, but one individual tested really liked it’s ankylosaurs, and were the vast majority of its diet

[bright basalt]

this made super very upset

[little mauve]

Do you have a source on this? I've seen it repeated but the only study I know on the subject doesn't mention ankylosaurs at all

[light osprey]

Yes it’s a lovely study, but I think the novelty of Tyrannosaurus hunting those Ankylosaurus is attractive

[gray ruin]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/855501765661949972/1142461128648184041/BCPOJ.gif

[bright veldt]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031018218310538

[steady rock]

do you think marine biologist would tag marine reptiles like they do today to modern sea mammals?

[bright veldt]

Full thing’s behind a paywall so big sad

[stiff osprey]

Aw nah they graffiti'd the whale 😭

[steady rock]

its scientifical graffiti

[gray ruin]

Ain't no way cuh

[bright basalt]

sugoui!!!! kawaii!

[light osprey]

Tagging obviously yes, I don’t know about this marine graffiti

[little mauve]

Here's the full paper, it only mentions sauropods & hadrosaurs (and the deinocheirus feeding trace evidence)

[dire sky]

Marine subway surfers 💀

[compact leaf]

it might not be published but I've heard of the one that preferred ankylosaurids too, it's out there somewhere

[steady rock]

also, was Tusoteuthis a squid, cuttlefish or octopus?

[light osprey]

Do we know which material it pertained to at the very least?

[stiff osprey]

It looked sort of cuttlefish-like, but is more closely related to octopi

[little mauve]

I've heard it a lot too, just never seen the paper

[light osprey]

Curious about these Deinocheirus tracks

[compact leaf]

where’d you get that picture of me

[stiff osprey]

I am in at least four places at all times

[little mauve]

https://www.academia.edu/1900689

[light osprey]

Huh, that’s pretty neat

[light osprey]

Tyrannosaurs just eat everything in the ecosystem it seems

[little mauve]

When you're big you kinda have to

[sudden wind]

That's very unsettling given how octopod eyes are.

Vertebrate looking eyes, even though cephalopods and us have evolved eyes differently.

I wonder what would be the best reference between the open water decapods (squids) and the more closely related octopods (octopuses) for Enchoteuthis.

[snow python]

Does anyone here have a cryolophosaurus skeletal?

[sudden wind]

https://fxtwitter.com/GET_AWAY_TRIKE/status/1325322702849077248?s=19

[sudden wind]

1. squid
   2/3) octopus

[dire sky]

Do any other Dino’s have the same head crest as cryo?

[sudden wind]

No.

[dire sky]

Interesting

[clever sable]

Huh what is this?

[light osprey]

Hartman’s skeletals always look so nice

[dire sky]

So cryo is unique to its species?

[sudden wind]

Genus and specie.

[light osprey]

Early Neotheropods get pretty unique

[dire sky]

Seems a lot of it’s relatives are with dilophosaurus and dracovenator being close

[bright veldt]

Enchoteuthis isn’t really any modern group of cephalopods

[sudden wind]

I think the current consensus is that they are Octopods. Though for the eyes I think ecological backtracking would be better to use than phylogenetical backtracking when it comes to such details.

[magic jacinth]

do we know much about the eating habits of large theropods? Im sort of just wondering if they gorged themselves and then layed around for days digesting and finishing the meal or if they were more active hunters who needed to hunt almost daily. i guess it just depends what is available to them at the time? suppose its kind of hard to surmise the day to day activites of a tyrannosaur or carch of some kind

[heady thunder]

I dont think we can ever be sure of that

[sudden wind]

There are some studies about it : I don't have them.

[little mauve]

Though it would primarily vary based on availability, gorging has been inferred for large theropods

[magic jacinth]

would for sure be interesting, i know some animals are willing to gorge to the point they start slightly losing the ability to defend themselves due to how weighed down they are now, lack of agility sort of speak. some animals seem more aware of this then others.

[heady thunder]

Yeah, they could have gourged or they needed to hunt daily, but we cannot study the metabolism of them and find out if they need to eat daily, cos, theyre dead.

[magic jacinth]

most likely spent alot of down time digesting id assume after that

[bright veldt]

You typically only see actively sticking with a carcass with predators that are capable of defending it

Puma and Bear horde their kills but you don’t really see cheetahs doing that

Wolves and Hyenas don’t do either and just consume so quickly it’s all gone in a single sitting

[magic jacinth]

thats true, most animals that gorge themselves and stay near the carcass can defend it even in a rotund slower mode from all that eating lol. I just of course wonder if they were bird of prey like thinking "this is enough, i still need to be able to move properly to get on with the day" or just went full lion mode and laid about for 3 days straight after eating several hundred kilos of meat

[heady thunder]

The big theropods could probably pull it off, yet again, we cant guess that from fossils, at least I think we cant.

[magic jacinth]

yea alot of these questions are pretty specific so hard to say

[heady thunder]

Cos like, how do you find out how much calories daily did it need, how fast it burned them etc.

[magic jacinth]

i think it be safe to say large theropods ate alot either way but yea how they actually acted around food is interesting

[heady thunder]

Megatheropods which need food daily would be, scary.

[magic jacinth]

most likely inferred from behavior or stomach contents im guessing

[tough parcel]

Big theropods were likely cold-blooded and low metabolism because they're all just big, dead lizards, aren't they? 😎

[bright veldt]

Competition also drives a lot of what the carnivore’s prey base is

[heady thunder]

Behavior is like, even harder to guess lel.

[tough parcel]

AFAIK there was a study on that, admittedly it was in the 90s, but the estimate put it as not much. You could probably sustain a T. rex on a small cow every day or smth...or was it a goat, I forgor

[sullen cairn]

Wolves aren’t any less capable of defending kills than cougars

[bright veldt]

Puma are capable of bringing down prey as large as elk, but in the ecosystems with wolves they don’t really do that, because it’s so much effort and risk for the chance to just have it stolen

[tough parcel]

@stiff osprey Please almighty paleo-father, do you recall the specific number for the metabolic rate of megatheropods? 🥺 I remember it was 2x the original estimate, but Idr the exact number

[magic jacinth]

it can be. but it can be infered from enviromental stuff and fossils, sort of like swimming marks on bottom of rivers shows certain dinos were swimming, teeth in certain prey show what it was eating, but yea its not easy to catch a break on those findings

[bright veldt]

When did I say they werent? It’s just a strategy to where they don’t have to bother with contesting for food in the first place

[little mauve]

I could see theropods being similar to komodo dragons or crocodiles with size based hierarchies at kill sites & possibly a lot of fighting and cannibalism

[tough parcel]

Nah, it'd vary between taxa duh, but I'd assume most megatheropods were actually fairly social

[sullen cairn]

Ah read that wrong then

[heady thunder]

Yeah, but like, thats an assumption, we cant know the parameters of their metabolism, how fast they burned that etc, we can only guess that. Like, if we knew those, finding this out would be easy.

[tough parcel]

I'd assume we can know metabolic rates due to some magic bone magic, like rings or smth

[stiff osprey]

I can't remember the exact number, but an 8 tonne theropod would need something like 80-120 kg of meat per day to remain healthy, as a minimum. Their stomachs could easily hold some half a ton or so, so they could likely go for at least a week without hunting after one large kill without suffering any ill effects

[light osprey]

Agreed 🤝

[little mauve]

Wiemann 2022 looked at metabolic rate in dinosaurs but not enough to calculate food demands really https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04770-6

[heady thunder]

If its an avian metabolism, doesnt it mean they need frequent food?

[magic jacinth]

heggin paywall

[little mauve]

Certain taxa yeah, dinosaurs showed a range of metabolic rates

[heady thunder]

Ok, so explain to me this, rex at the chart is very high on the endothermy part, does that mean it needs a lot of food daily or not really?

[magic jacinth]

yesh, but avian and mammal metabolism are both on the high end, so im guessing a large theropods build and ability to gorge lets it get away with not having to eat everyday while still maintaining a high level of energy.

[little mauve]

Will share in a sec sorry thought it was open

[magic jacinth]

though avians in general seem to not have the best ability to gorge themselves, penguins excluded lol.

[magic jacinth]

all good i could probably find it myself online too, appreciate it.

[heady thunder]

Yeah thats why Im asking, like the chart is cool, but I cant really, read into it much, need more info lel

[magic jacinth]

lol palaeophis just chilling by himself in the lower area

[heady thunder]

Tho triceratops being more cold blooded then its predator might have some implication on how they interacted, or maybe not idk.

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind the larger an animal is the lower it’s metabolism generally

[magic jacinth]

they are pretty close on the chart though from what i can see

[little mauve]

I think it's possible it had an impact, it's an intriguing idea

[heady thunder]

But one shows as ectothermic while the other is endo.
And Id say it might have smth to do it, cos rex on average was a lil bigger.

[little mauve]

The study suggests that apart from hadrosaurs, most ornithiscians were secondarily ectothermic

[magic jacinth]

yea , its in the ectothermic range, but just hardly is all im saying compared to something like palaeophis, trike is pushing towards the endo line real hard.

[little mauve]

For sure & they were certainly big enough to be functionally homethermic

[bright veldt]

Eh their growth is an issue with that

No animal is growing from 10 lbs to over 2 tons in 3 years on an ectothermic metabolism

[magic jacinth]

makes me wonder if that means extreme weather events on either side but specially cold would affect something like trike just a bit more then a rex lets say. maybe cold snaps were a good time for hunting.

[magic jacinth]

did trike grow that fast?

[little mauve]

That is a wrinkle in the paper, this is just looking it at it from one perspective. It's possible their metabolism slowed significantly as they aged, ending up somewhere near the borderline

[bright veldt]

Idk bout trike, but hadrosaurs like Maiasaura grew that quick

[magic jacinth]

very rapid

[little mauve]

Hadrosaurs are the most endothermic ornithiscians according to this study

[magic jacinth]

what about stegooo

isnt he a bit lower then hadrosaurs

[tough parcel]

Iirc there's some weirdness with the study (as Scan pointed out), how the fastest growing animals are somehow low metabolisms

[little mauve]

Stego was rather low. Sorry still looking for a copy of the pdf

[heady thunder]

I think its cos growth would probably slow down with age, that like happens for, all creatures I think

[sullen cairn]

Wouldn’t hadrosaurs not being secondarily ectothermic mean they retained endothermy

[magic jacinth]

Maybe those giant growth spikes in tryranosaurs during teen years had something to do with body and mass and therefore the ability to increase metabolism

[heady thunder]

Probably.

[tough parcel]

I'm not aware of any animal fluctuating their metabolic rate throughout their life (except bears and such when they hibernate), but I might be horribly, horrifically wrong

[magic jacinth]

Im just assuming that metabolism is tied to rate of growth in some way, but i have not much a real clue

[bright veldt]

Some reptiles are ectotherms but go on metabolic overdrive during the breeding season, becoming temporarily endothermic. Tegus do this.

[tough parcel]

Oh interesting

[magic jacinth]

Thats pretty interesting tbh

[bright veldt]

An important energy boost when fighting others for territory/mates, finding said resources, and protecting territory and nesting sites

[little mauve]

Fluctuating metabolic rate is a big part of aging

[astral kelp]

Nile Crocs in relation to african lions (when feeding) are kleptoparasites right

[covert lintel]

yeah some (perhaps many?) animals experience slower metabolisms as they enter old age. humans are one of 'em, if i've got my facts straight!

[tough parcel]

Ok and? Humans are CRINGE and BAD, be me, the mighty tyrannosaur 💪

[sullen cairn]

not sure if it'd be related to metabolism or not but hadrosaurs physically fall off really hard after reaching skeletal maturity

[bright veldt]

Crocodiles and lions generally steal kills from each other. It’s not a dominant interaction to one species.

[astral kelp]

yeah but kleptoparasitism is common with these two specifically the crocs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_vdCvylVXE&t=397s

[bright veldt]

I’m confused as to what you mean. Hyenas are much more active competitors to lions than crocodiles are.

[clever sable]

There are tons and tons of warm blooded reptiles, around 10,000 different species

[covert lintel]

true but unrelated

[little mauve]

Interesting point, it could be partly metabolic

[light oxide]

That and hyenas hunt most of their food, with lions doing the contesting portion.

[bright veldt]

I know what it means, I just don’t know what you’re saying

[clever sable]

Unrelated to what?

[bright veldt]

Crocodiles steal kills from anyone. Lions are just the most risky by far.

[magic jacinth]

i think the deliberate part of kleptoparasitism is singling out a certain species to steal food from, I dont believe crocs or lions care that its a croc or lion who has a body, it just happens that they steal from eachother sometimes, they dont actively seek eachother out i believe.

[covert lintel]

unrelated to the topic of animals experiencing fluctuations in their metabolisms over the course of their lives

[sullen cairn]

i doubt lions and crocodiles compete at kill sites frequently enough for kleptoparastism to be a major factor in the ecology of either

[bright veldt]

^ It happens but hyenas and lions have it way more fierce with each other in this department

[sullen cairn]

yep

[astral kelp]

multiple photos clips actually albeit its blurry

[magic jacinth]

for sure happens alot more during the great migrations where lions are more frequently near river banks feeding on the dead fellers. but I really dont think a croc cares if its a lion, leopard or hyena, if its food, its coming for it.

[light oxide]

Anyways, back onto the metabolism discussion earlier, I did remember hearing that the larger ye are, the longer ye can go without food. Is that necessarily true for the most part, or no?

[bright veldt]

Crocodiles do have to be careful with lions though. They’re the only terrestrial predator that actively can threaten them as adults.

[little mauve]

Yes that's true, particularly if you're skeletally mature

[heady thunder]

I think they are pretty chill

[magic jacinth]

crocs and lions will often end up feeding together as a temporary truce, or more of a "we both cant safely remove eachother so lets get on with it" is how i see it.

[covert lintel]

i'm not sure if it's a hard and fast rule, but generally speaking, yeah. as an extreme example, a little shrew has to eat much more often than an elephant, since the shrew has less space to store energy.

[sullen cairn]

Any interaction between a lion and a crocodile is also going to depend on the size of the crocodile and number of lions as well

[heady thunder]

Yeah, very chill. A lion would never let an hyena that close lel

[light osprey]

Finally a good video of these two

[astral kelp]

1 Male lion was surprisingly recorded scaring off two crocs off of a zebra kill

[bright veldt]

Again, it depends

[light oxide]

I honestly think it just depends on the individual crocodilian and lion.

[bright veldt]

They’re basically even. I’ve never heard of crocodiles killing adult lions but that might be because of the semi-arid environment they live in, considering both tigers and jaguars do get eaten by crocodiles themselves sometimes.

[heady thunder]

Cocaine lion vs meth croco

[magic jacinth]

tbh the lions dont want them there tho, they are essentially just dealing with it as the crocs are too big to be safely removed.

[light osprey]

These Nile Crocodiles are probably a good deal larger on average as well.

[clever sable]

Crocs have been recorded attacking them tho.....

[magic jacinth]

2 apex predators who are too evenly matched to do anything effective towards one another and too lazy to care. oh yea its sharing the corpse time

[bright veldt]

It’s probably a lot like hyena and lion interactions in that respect. No matter how violent interactions get there’s rarely death. The body count in competitive interactions is usually young and vulnerable adults.

[astral kelp]

there is a couple of cases but there rare

[light osprey]

Panthera are always getting into trouble with these darn Crocodilains

[heady thunder]

Lions do kill more hyenas, but thats to be expected when theres more hyenas and theyre the smaller species.

[clever sable]

Crocs do kill leopards though, common leopard L, leopards are jaguar ripoffs

[small geyser]

Snow leopards being the only exception iirc.

[magic jacinth]

crocs kill just about anything they can get there mouth around if they are hungry

[bright veldt]

Male lions do kill hyenas consistently, but it’s important to note that the lionesses fare much poorer against hyenas and they’re the more numerous of the two sexes.

[heady thunder]

Common leopard L, says to the most spread out big cat on the planet.

[covert lintel]

aren't those in a different genus? or am i thinking of clouded leopards?

[sullen cairn]

clouded leopards are pantherines but not panthera

[bright veldt]

Clouded leopards are a different genus, neofelis.

[astral kelp]

iirc there was this one hyena queen that got ambushed by this big famous male lion that hated hyenas with passion.

[light osprey]

Anything on this relationship between P. tigris and it’s contemporary Crocodilians?

[bright veldt]

Lions and hyenas hate each other as a rule

[tough parcel]

I can't remember the lion's real name, but do you mean "The one who breathes fire"? Or smth akin to that translation

[sullen cairn]

mugger crocodiles

[heady thunder]

Yeah I remember that one, I think he snapped her spine and left her there, tho I might be wrong.

[little mauve]

It's pretty much a hard & fast rule yeah, the classic example is an elephant & a shrew. The elephant has more inertia to its bodily functions (like maintaining homeothermy) and therefore need to replace energy (i.e. metabolize, i.e. feed) at a much slower rate. Large animals that grow fast have high metabolic rates as they're growing but at skeletal maturity it's much easier for them to maintain with a proportionately lower intake of food.

[light osprey]

And their relationship?

[bright veldt]

Muggers and Tigers have a similar relationship to lions and niles. Saltwater crocodiles overlap less with tigers so there’s not as much information, although I imagine due to the sheer size difference the tiger isn’t doing much to a large adult.

[stuck chasm]

A reminder that this channel is for users to discuss paleontological discoveries, scientific news, and depictions of prehistoric creatures in media related to paleontology. Refer to all our pinned guidelines in every channel you plan to use. Excessive discussions about extant animals are not allowed. Please direct this conversation elsewhere.

[light osprey]

Tiger is known from the early Pleistocene

[sullen cairn]

pleistocene has arrived

[heady thunder]

We dont count that here.

[bright veldt]

Here’s a segway to a prehistoric version of this interaction. Cave lions were solitary animals that were usually ousted by hyenas in competitive interactions. Modern lions being social is probably due to such pressure by hyenas.

[small geyser]

We really need a biology chat…

[magic jacinth]

wish we had a channel for extent animal biology talk.

[heady thunder]

Maybe if it was path of lions instead.

[sullen cairn]

what's the size difference between the two?

[astral kelp]

Lets talk about Panthera tigris soloensis (aka biggest tiger ever)

[light osprey]

Got for it

[clever sable]

Saltwater crocodiles are at the very least several thousand years old in terms of how long the species has been around, likely even longer, possibly millions of years

[bright veldt]

Cave Lions are on average 10% larger than lions. Idk with cave hyenas but they’re still in the same species as spotted hyenas so I don’t think it’s that crazy. I know they’re bigger than dire wolves tho.

[covert lintel]

im all for the biology chat existing, but it Has been established that this is paleo chat. i get conversations straying to modern animals by accident, it's a shame they have to be cut off, but if ya stroll into here and talk about lions and crocodiles right off the bat, well, You Knew

[astral kelp]

nvm there isn't much material

[magic jacinth]

makes sense tbh, wonder if it started with coalitions of brothers and perhaps sisters trying to find new territory, and ending up in a better position to deal with things then a solo cave lion, natural selection favoring the socialites essentially.

[light osprey]

Wikipedia tells me it’s known from the Pliocene

[light oxide]

Maybe.

[clever sable]

That's long enough ago

[heady thunder]

Well, yeah.
Theyd give the same warning if I asked about tips on how to care about my goldfish.

[bright veldt]

This also means American lions were probably solitary as well. Wasn’t as bad as dealing with the hyena horde in Eurasia but they still had dire wolves and two species of social sabertooths to deal with instead of one

[sullen cairn]

lions and tigers: cringe
lions and tigers, pleistocene: based

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/mujikcboro-seriymujik-gif-24361533

[magic jacinth]

wasnt the american lion basically a large cougar? or was that the american cheetah

[bright veldt]

The latter

[astral kelp]

Does anyone know why Panthera onca mesembrina got smaller?

[woeful falcon]

If we were getting a bio chat, we would have got it a long time ago when moderation wasn't like this. Best we can do when it comes to animals that are extant is find a paleontological context when it comes to them.

[sullen cairn]

dire wolves aren't much larger than grey wolves so I doubt they'd be a huge issue for american lions

[astral kelp]

dire wolves when they're not actually wolves:

[sullen cairn]

although isn't something about tigers being so dominant over wolves in the far east because it's so densly wooded or something like that?

[light osprey]

what are they again?

[magic jacinth]

ahh yea, kind of weird to call it a cheetah if its not in that same genus, im guessing american cheetah was not in acinonyx like modern cheetah? if you know

[covert lintel]

ngl i do want to escape to a better paleo-focused server at some point, trying to have a conversation in here is like walking on eggshells

[clever sable]

What does the fossil record for elephantine creatures in the Americas look like?

[sullen cairn]

dire wolves shouldn't be called wolves because they aren't canis mfs when they hear of a maned wolf

[bright veldt]

It was its own genus, Miracinonyx

[light osprey]

I remember now, yeah they’re close enough

[magic jacinth]

oh, so might not even be that accurate to call it a large cougar if its not in puma. i need to look into that genus of kitty cat, never heard of it.

[astral kelp]

dire wolves have a name to indicate they are no longer part of the genus canis But the researchers don’t expect their findings to completely overturn tradition, and Aenocyon dirus would likely continue to be called the dire wolf. They will just join the club of things like maned wolves that are called wolves but aren’t really

[small geyser]

It is. Not trying to be rude to anyone but some discussions here can also come off as juvenile from what I have seen.

[magic jacinth]

common names can be silly when trying to understand actual lineages

[sullen cairn]

they're in that little cougar cheetah jagaurundi tribe thing so calling them american cheetahs isn't the worst thing possible

[light osprey]

To be fair wolf is a common name,
So nobody cares

[magic jacinth]

true but felinae covers alot of kittys, from house cats all the way to cougars. quite a difference depending on genus.

[woeful falcon]

sabertooth tigers aren't tigers either, but I suppose sabertooth cat is just as in fashion and that is a bit better

[astral kelp]

Whats everyones thought of the american cheetah making the pronghorn stupidly fast today, gotta love evolution

[bright veldt]

It’s debated if that’s even true

[astral kelp]

Whats the other side to the arguement?

[covert lintel]

ngl i've heard american cheetahs may not have even been that fast

[magic jacinth]

cool reconstruction of the american cheetah

[sullen cairn]

miracinonyx may have lived more in mountanious terrain

ergo it may not have been specialized to a cheetah-adjacent ecology

[magic jacinth]

interesting, wonder if they were very adaptable like cougars themselves, youll find cougars in patagonia chasing llama relatives across the open rolling hills, or on vancouver island playing in the trees ready to drop bear on you.

[nocturne gazelle]

I didn't know America had a cheetah that's pretty cool

[small geyser]

Mauricio Antón does some fantastic work on prehistoric felids.

[magic jacinth]

its just a common name, its not in the same genus as cheetah, but of course related to all cats in felinae

[nocturne gazelle]

Oh gotcha

[sullen cairn]

next you're gonna tell me snow leopards aren't leopards

[magic jacinth]

is this one of his works? ill check him out

[bright veldt]

It was probably similar to the modern cheetah in a few ways but not entirely. Like keep in mind modern cheetahs aren’t open specialists either. That’s their preferred habitat but they do fine in forests and mountainous areas too. Miracinonyx was probably the same due to fossils being found in the Grand Canyon as the forests/swamps of Florida

[small geyser]

American cheetah was more closely related to the puma iirc.

[bright veldt]

^

[sullen cairn]

that's why we should force everyone to call snow leopards ounces for my personal conveniance

[magic jacinth]

i'm currently imaginging a cougar like relative built for higher speeds rather then climbing. but this is 99% uneducated guess based on what i know about back then lol.

[clever sable]

What is the fossil record of crocodilians in Cenozoic north America like?

[bright veldt]

I mean no ur right. Albeit pumas aren’t exactly expert climbers either. They climb cause they have to.

[heady thunder]

Pumas climb and jump very well.

[sullen cairn]

miracinoyx also has wrists better for grappling than running

[bright veldt]

They climb good but they’re not like a leopard. They’re primarily terrestrial cats.

[clever sable]

Most cats are good climbers and jumpers

[magic jacinth]

yea i wouldnt say they are built for it specifically, but they really have no issues in the trees from my experience out in BC. quite agile

[bright veldt]

Regardless, you get the idea

[magic jacinth]

i honestly imagine for most cats no matter the specie, extinct or not, smaller you are easier it is to climb lol

[bright veldt]

Eh it’s less that larger cats can’t climb and more that lions just suck at it. Like I thought tigers were too big until I saw a video of one chasing a leopard up a tree

[light oxide]

Hmm . . .

So I still have this size chart of Allosaurus, Ceratosaurus, Camptosaurus, Kentrosaurus, and Stegosaurus. Is there a way I can maybe get Saurophaganax and a human model into there? (Randomdinos was the one who came up with this size chart):

[magic jacinth]

maybe not in how hard it is to get up there but agility wise.

[light osprey]

All this has me contemplating splitting my interests between the Maastrichtian and the Pleistocene

[magic jacinth]

yea they just lose agility, but have more then enough power, just like bears. really makes you wonder if sabre cats or cave bears ever rocketed up a tree to either get prey or escape predators

[astral kelp]

Has anything surpassed Jaekelopterus in terms of "the biggest arthropod"

[sullen cairn]

Allosaurus looks to be franoy's DINO 2560 so you could probably add stego's sauro edit in using that as a scale

[bright veldt]

Jaekelopterus and Arthropleura are kinda neck and neck

[light oxide]

I see -- got an image of Stego's sauro?

. . . Why did it autocorrect Stego's to Steve's? 💀

[magic jacinth]

be crazy to see all those large athropods and shelled lads back then

didnt some nautilus like species get to the size of small cars or something

[magic jacinth]

the lorge claw lad

[astral kelp]

I wonder why howelli was so small

[sullen cairn]

because it wasn't as big

[bright veldt]

Dimetrodon be like

[nocturne gazelle]

New Pot aquatic when?

[astral kelp]

thats the question, why

[magic jacinth]

coming to snip snab ur toes

[sullen cairn]

there wasn't a selective pressure to grow big ig

[magic jacinth]

arthropods have interesting growth too

[covert lintel]

yeah sometimes the question isn't "why isn't this one big", but "why is that one big?"
contrary to popular belief, bigger is rarely better

[magic jacinth]

dont many of them continue growing at relatively similar rates even in old age? like lobsters as a example

[astral kelp]

i know a couple of mod teams are modding it in

[magic jacinth]

something like lobsters typically die from issues shedding there new shells and trying to produce enough energy for the said new shell, they dont die from old age

this could of been true for many arthropods back then. they are good at making sure their telomeres do not go corrupted.

[bright veldt]

Wrong channel

[ancient crystal]

Does anyone have a good up to date size chart for comparing eo and trike?

[magic jacinth]

Anyone else hear about Venetoraptor

Lagerpetids are weird. Reptile wanna be a dino again so bad

[sullen cairn]

eotrike with EM P 15.1, MWC 7584, and maximus

[ancient crystal]

Thank you

[sullen cairn]

mind you those three are pretty large by trike standards

this is with calicornis, hatcher, lane, and yoshi

[bright veldt]

How heavy are they anyway? Despite all of its contemporaries having a lot of coverage I’ve never seen a good GDI on triceratops

[light osprey]

Fr, I hope it stays that way, talking about mass is boring

[stiff osprey]

Trike mass is tough because there are like twenty skeletals out there with different proportions

[sullen cairn]

step 1: find reliable trike gdi
step 2: cry

this is kinda old but I think is kinda servicableish correct me if I'm wrong

[stiff osprey]

Also, even if you did, there seems to be considerable variation in head size relative to total size, which is all we have for 80% of trikes

this one is perhaps the most bobbleheaded, which would put the biggest Triceratops (albertensis) at 9.4 tonnes

more or less matches what we see with big john

[sullen cairn]

most normal lancian intraspecific size variation

[light osprey]

That is wild. Are those both mature?

[sullen cairn]

edmonto is but I don't think trike is
but there are similar-sized adults I'm just too lazy to find em

[storm heron]

The individual variation is wild it seems.

Wasn't the smallest mature Tyrannosaurus (I think it was "Victoria"?) around ~10 metres.

[sullen cairn]

victoria's a bit under 7t apparently

[light osprey]

Where’s she from

[storm heron]

Seems like it is among the smaller mature individuals

[sullen cairn]

11.5m and 6.8t

that's definitely below average

[storm heron]

Ah, doesn't seem too short compared to most Tyrannosaurus specimens unless I am misremembering.

[sullen cairn]

yeah that's around average in length

[storm heron]

Suprised though to see it being rather "light" compared to similar/slighty longer specimens.

[sullen cairn]

there's this skeletal which is ~10.5m standing

[storm heron]

Wonder what specimen it is based on

Also that Triceratops seems relatively small compared to the giants I usually see.

[sullen cairn]

might just be smaller specimen

[light osprey]

Every Tyrannosaurus looks thic

[lime elm]

How do yall memorize prehistoric animals name

I used to repeat it so much until I learn it 💀 I think it's a fun topic

[sullen cairn]

reading literature about them is helpful

it's easier when you actually know about it rather than just trying to memorize a name in a vacuum

[stiff osprey]

My brain just does that. I can't remember what I had for lunch two days ago but I sure remember the glupshittovenator wherevensis

[lime elm]

LOL

[sullen cairn]

why waste time with practical information when you can memorize various indeterminate tyrannosauroid teeth throughout central asia

[gray ruin]

In the Sundarban it has been reported that tigers AVOID basking spots of Saltwater crocodiles. Surprisingly, there have been no recorded cases of tigers preying on juvenile Salties either while all known recorded cases show the Salties killing or dominating Tigers.

[frosty anvil]

i personally prefer this https://alphynix.tumblr.com/post/142642168056/miracinonyx-a-feline-from-the-pleistocene-of

[frosty anvil]

iirc it was actually more like a cougar, having convergently evolved with cheetahs? unless thats outdated now

so not quite a cheetah!

[pearl briar]

why chocolate kills dog?

[heady thunder]

Best to ask in the animal chat

[frail robin]

Same. I may not remember what I had for breakfast, but in no way am I forgetting Tupandactylus Navigans

[light osprey]

Ah, my favourite vertebrate name

[snow python]

Could torvosaurus use its arms when hunting?

[marble stone]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t

[undone parcel]

autism

[wide glen]

all i remember is parapropaleoprohoplophorus\

[nimble crypt]

Microscopachycephalosaurusmol

[covert lintel]

seconded. autism does things to a guy

[night bluff]

Dinosaur names are also usually based off of some cool title making them easier to remember imo, saurophaganax - "lord of lizard eaters" or Ledumahadi - "Giant Thunderclap"

[sullen cairn]

I remember ledumahadi because it makes me think of femoral circumference scaling and then I sob uncontrollably

[frail robin]

Bambiraptor

[marble stone]

Bulbasaurus

[blissful bison]

Argentinosaurus

[nocturne gazelle]

The scientific name or common name? Because I just don't when it comes to scientific names. But the common names are second nature for many of them simply because I've been in and around dinosaur communities for close to 5 years now. You just learn and it builds up over the years.

[lime elm]

Guess the main problem is English is not my first language lol

[heady thunder]

I memorize then by crying about their balancing in dino games

[honest wave]

I remember them because I grew up with almost exclusively paleomedia, so all those weird Latin words are like a second language for me.

Also because my brain is full of autism

[heady thunder]

Yeah watching dino docs since the age of 7 helps too

[honest wave]

I think my first book I could actually read was a dinosaur book. My brain was rotted from then on

Also I will try to get the passeriformes cladogram out soon, work and moving is just kicking my ass

I know it’s been like a week or two

[light osprey]

The undertaking of all time. Can’t wait to see it

[gloomy elm]

name as many dinosaurs as you can go

[heady thunder]

1. TRex.
2. They dont matter.

[white matrix]

Very positive esca 😂

[bitter geode]

Hi

[nocturne gazelle]

That would take too long lol

[sullen cairn]

1. megalosaurus spp
   that's it everything's all megalosaurus

[heady thunder]

Megalosaurus is really unknown by the public, which is sad cos its the first dino described.

[gloomy elm]

humor me

[nocturne gazelle]

You want the short or long version? Scientific names or common names?

[heady thunder]

Dino 1 dino 2 dino 3 dino 4 dino 5 dino 6

[nocturne gazelle]

You got the sharp tooth one, the sharp claw one, the sharp horn one, the sharp tail one, the sharp toe one, the sharp armor one

[heady thunder]

Long neck one

[gloomy elm]

Short version and common names

[nocturne gazelle]

Common is the long version

[gloomy elm]

Ok do the long version and i'll tell when too stop

[lime elm]

https://www.pteros.com/ obsessed

[sullen cairn]

kid named slowmode

[gloomy elm]

Give me and website like that but for marine reptiles and dinosaurs

[lime elm]

I'm sure there's one out there, dinos are more famous than pterosaurs

[gloomy elm]

True

[elfin pulsar]

Gregory
Fredrick
Ashley
Frank

That’s it

[nocturne gazelle]

You forgot Timmy

[heady thunder]

Barney, Aladar.

[elfin pulsar]

YOSHI

[wide ivy]

Oof!

[elfin pulsar]

Oh is it really the first described dino?

[heady thunder]

Iirc yes, its either that or iguanadon, but Im sure its megalo

[clever sable]

Yup it was megalo

[compact leaf]

megalo first then iggy and then I think it was hylaeosaurus

[sullen cairn]

nobody cares about hylaeosaurus

[nocturne gazelle]

Crazy to see how megalo has changed

[wide ivy]

They don’t have the regular Utah raptor in game anymore huh?

[light osprey]

Organismus vivus (trust me it makes sense)

[sullen cairn]

han solo

[nocturne gazelle]

Huh?

[wide ivy]

I haven’t seen it in a while.

The one without the feathers and it’s a bit bigger than the mod one.

[covert lintel]

1: there was never a base-game utahraptor.
2: wrong channel, this is where we talk about bones and such

[wide ivy]

It’s not in the founders pack.

Oh.!!

[light osprey]

Silly goose

[frail robin]

Concavenator
Icthyovenator
Olorotitan
Kuru
Velociraptor
Tyrannosaurus
Yutyrannus
Daspletosaurus
Ornithomimus
Struthiomimus
Gallimimus
Yi
Acrocanthasaurus
Deltadromeus
Amargasaurus
Hypsilodon
Dryosaurus
Camptosaurus
Kentrosaurus
Megalosaurus
Pectinodon
Anchiornis
Deinocheirus
Deinonychus
Imperobator
Morosaurus
Compsognathus
Eoraptor
Megaraptor
Maip
Austrolovenator
Aerosteon
Carnotaurus
Pycnonemosaurus
Ceratosaurus
Psittacosaurus
Triceratops
Protoceratops
Kentrosaurus
Stegosaurus
Edmontosaurus
Bambiraptor
Pyroraptor
Oviraptor
Majungasaurus
Diabloceratops
Torosaurus
Torvosaurus
Allosaurus
Saurophaganax
Ankylosaurus
Anodontosaurus
Sauropelta
Proceratosaurus
Sinosauropteryx
Eotriceratops
Alioramus
Nanuqsaurus
Iguanodon
Dilophosaurus
Alamosaurus
Dreadnaughtus
Miragaia
Utharaptor
Austroraptor
Achillobator
Rajasaurus
Microraptor
Archeopteryx
Styracosaurus
Diplodocus
Apatosaurus

Honourable mention: Pigeon

[tough parcel]

Pigeon being an honorable mention
Invalid list, get out 😡

[heady thunder]

Guy really cared

[grave yacht]

Yo

[frail robin]

1. Not a guy
2. Yes

[light osprey]

I’m feeling competitive today, might just write the whole list

[frail robin]

Do it

[covert lintel]

smh you forgot Passer

[grave yacht]

Hello whats going on?

[light osprey]

Of maastrichtian dinosaurs*

[covert lintel]

discussion of bones and such

[grave yacht]

Ok

[frail robin]

No. All Dinosaurs. Even avian dinosaurs

Include all bird species, coward

[light osprey]

Yes I’m a coward, I’m picking the least diverse time period and you can’t stop me

[sullen cairn]

Me when extended period of lower diversity in wake of faunal overturn

[astral kelp]

among us

[elfin pulsar]

Bro didn’t even mention pelecanimimus

[snow python]

Accurate?

[clever sable]

What's larger, average trike or the eo we have?

[undone parcel]

bro..Shant was in the 2nd Meg novel..someone says the carcass is hadrosaurian, implying Shant therefore the rex in the 2nd meg movie is actually Zhuchentyrannus...

[sullen cairn]

tarascosaurus is 3.1m so looks like it

[light osprey]

I’ve done it

Ankylosaurus
Anodontosaurus
Antarctopelta
Brachypodosaurus
Denversaurus
Edmontonia
Glyptodontopelta
Patagopelta
Shanxia
Stegouros
Struthiosaurus
Tarchia
Tianzhenosaurus
Parkosaurus
Thescelosaurus
Adynomosaurus
Amurosaurus
Arenysaurus
Augustynolophus
Barsboldia
Blasiasaurus
Canardia
Charonosaurus
Edmontosaurus
Gilmoreosaurus
Gryposaurus
Huaxiaosaurus
Hypacrosaurus
Kamuysaurus
Kerberosaurus
Koutalisaurus
Kritosaurus
Kundurosaurus
Lapampasaurus
Mandschurosaurus
Microhadrosaurus
Morrosaurus
Nanningosaurus
Olorotitan
Orthomerus
Pararhabdodon
Pareisactus
Rhabdodon
Riabininohadros
Sahaliyania
Saurolophus
Secernosaurus
Sektensaurus
Shantungosaurus
Telmatosaurus
Thespesius
Trinisaura
Tsinataosaurus
Velafrons
Willinakaqe
Wulagasaurus
Zalmoxes
Agathaumas
Anchiceratops
Arrhinoceratops
Bravoceratops
Coahuilaceratops
Eotriceratops
Gobiceratops
Lamaceratops
Leptoceratops
Micropachycephalosaurus
Montanoceratops
Nedoceratops
Ojoceratops
Pachyrhinosaurus
Platyceratops
Polyonax
Protoceratops
Regaliceratops
Sierraceratops
Sinoceratops
Tatankaceratops
Torosaurus
Triceratops
Zhuchengceratops
Alaskacephale
Goyocephale
Pachycephalosaurus
Platytholus
Prenocephale
Spaerotholus
Tylocephale
Aeolosaurus
Alamosaurus
Ampelosaurus
Argyrosaurus
Arkharavia
Bonatitan
Camplyodoniscus
Dreadnoughtus
Gannansaurus
Gondwanatitan
Huabeisaurus
Hypselosaurus
Isisaurus
Jainosaurus
Loricosaurus
Magyarosaurus
Nemegtosaurus
Neuquensaurus
Opisthocoelicaudia
Paludititan
Quaesitosaurus
Rapetosaurus
Rocasaurus
Saltasaurus
Titanosaurus
Uberabatitan
Vahiny
Albertosaurus
Alioramus
Anserimimus
Archaeornithomimus
Betasuchus
Carnotaurus
Chenanisaurus
Deinocheirus
Dryptosaurus
Gallimimus
Indosaurus
Indosuchus
Laevisuchus
Maip
Majungasaurus
Masiakasaurus
Noasaurus
Ornithomimus
Pycnonemosaurus
Qianzhousaurus
Qiupalong
Quilmesaurus
Rahiolosaurus
Rajasaurus
Richardoestesia
Struthiomimus
Tarbosaurus
Tyrannosaurus
Acheroraptor
Adasaurus
Ajancingenia
Albertonykus
Anzu
Atrociraptor
Austroraptor
Avimimus
Banji….

[light osprey]

Bonapartenykus
Borogovia
Bradycneme
Ceratonykus
Conchoraptor
Corythoraptor
Dakotaraptor
Dromaeosaurus
Elmisaurus
Elopteryx
Epichirostenotes
Erliansaurus
Euronychodon
Ganzhousaurus
Gobiraptor
Heptasteornis
Heyuannia
Hulsanpes
Imperobator
Jiangxisaurus
Kuru
Luanchuanraptor
Leptorhynchos
Mononykus
Nankangia
Nanshiungosaurus
Neimongosaurus
Nemegtomaia
Nomingia
Ojoraptorsaurus
Paronychodon
Pectinodon
Pyroraptor
Rahonavis
Rinchenia
Saurornitholestes
Shixinggia
Tamarro
Therizinosaurus
Tochisaurus
Variraptor
Velociraptor
Yulong
Zanabazar
Alamitornis
Anatalavis
Antarcticavis
Asiahesperornis
Avisaurus
Balaur
Brodavis
Canadega
Ceramornis
Cimolopteryx
Conflicto
Elbretornis
Enantiornis
Gargantuavis
Graculavus
Gurilynia
Hesperornis
Judinornis
Laornis
Lectavis
Martinavis
Neogaeornis
Palintropus
Polarornis
Potamornis
Soroavisaurus
Telmatornis
Teviornis
Tytthostonyx
Vegavis
Vorona
Yungavolucris

Finished

[woeful falcon]

Can we just consider this spam after Pronto's post

[heady thunder]

Yeah, mods, denature his proteins, thank you.

[light osprey]

Tsk tsk, they are dinosaur names, cope and seethe

[astral kelp]

bro forgot gojirasaurus

[sterile trail]

Hmm yes the "gorilla whale lizard"

[light osprey]

Left it out intentionally, did forget Antarcticavis though

[vocal breach]

It’s time to do the controversial funny

How accurate is this guy

[slow marsh]

Pretty accurate

But maxilla can be fixed

[vocal breach]

Can I see a skeletal for reference I might fix later

This is the one I had in mind when drawing it

I can see what you mean about the head tho

[slow marsh]

if u want

[slow marsh]

The skull on this skeletal reconstruction looks fine, but i'd use Dan's

[light osprey]

Hmm, the posterior end of the pre maxilla doesn’t have big caniniform teeth. I never noticed

[clever sable]

Some of the stuff in this skeletal is a little wonky

[slow marsh]

do u mean dorsal or lateral?

[clever sable]

It's most mostly the skull, like we have no evidence of that crest thing

[slow marsh]

That one crest was speculative (someone who knows more the development of this skeletal, correct me pls) but in general the skull looking fine

[woeful falcon]

Who told you that

[honest wave]

I can’t wait to drop a several gigabyte file consisting of 90% birds, 9% non-avian clades no one knows about, and 1% non-avians people care about

[compact leaf]

the crest thing came up a while back, someone broke embargo in one of serenos talks I think it was

[honest wave]

Gonna have to once again persuade people to download a file that absolutely isn’t a virus but still looks sketchy as hell because I literally cannot send it as an image file

[slow marsh]

i think they deleted the image

[woeful falcon]

Probably not ideal to talk about it then don't ya think

Should strive to contain that sort of stuff

[slow marsh]

Fr, u are right, i am sorry

[clever sable]

Time to tell everyone about this (I'm joking)

[woeful falcon]

All good homie anyway spinosaurus is an interesting weirdo

[clever sable]

@stiff osprey is the mapusaurus specimen pictured here fully grown?

[stiff osprey]

Yes

[clever sable]

Is it the largest known individual?

[stiff osprey]

Yes

[clever sable]

Hmmm, seems rather small but idk im not a professional

[tranquil quartz]

Ok probably stupid question but I saw this clip where a guy was speaking about a place where Giant Ground Sloths could possibly live in a bowl of mountains in high Peru. Is this just another idiotic claim?

[slow marsh]

It probably has longest legs than Giga, at least holotype

[compact leaf]

I’ve seen the claim and know about the guy who made it and there’s probably a lot of stuff in that bowl that we don’t know about, grounds sloths might be a bit of a stretch but if they’re anywhere left it’s there

if there is any there (and that’s still a big if) we’re probably not talking anything on the scale of megatherium or the bigger ground sloths though

[tranquil quartz]

Ok

[pearl briar]

dawg who the hell is banji 💀💀💀

[astral kelp]

when did random make a mapusaurus skeletal

[light osprey]

Ain’t no way Blud got that deep into the list

[sullen cairn]

kurupi erasure
good

[clever sable]

Wait, what are the 5 largest carcharadontosaurids now?

[woeful falcon]

points to carcharodontosaurinae them

• maybe acro I think that might be bigger than meraxes idk

[clever sable]

Hmmm

What are the mass estimates for the 5 largest? I'm not too upset to date in terms of carcharadontosauridae, the only ones I keep proper Track of are giga and acro

[tranquil quartz]

I think its Giga, Mapu and TTT or Carch for the 3 biggest and then dk bout 4th or 5th

[light osprey]

It’s all variable, these darn GDIs change every week 🗣️

[clever sable]

Not every week, more like every couple weeks

[bright veldt]

Here's the current list I have

1. Tyrannosaurus (12m, 10 tons)
   2+3. Giganotosaurus & Mapusaurus (13m, 9 tons)
2. Deinocheirus (12m, 8.5 tons)
   5 + 6. Spinosaurus (14m, 7.5 tons), Tyrannotitan (12m, 7.5 tons)
3. Carcharodontosaurus (12m, 7 tons)
4. Saurophagonax (13m, 6.5 tons)
   9, 10, + 11. Acrocanthosaurus (12m, 5.5 tons), Therizinosaurus (9m, 5.5 tons), Tarbosaurus (11m, 5.5 tons)

[tranquil quartz]

How likely is the possibility for a TTT upsize

[clever sable]

Uhm ackchually mapusaurus got downsized

[bright veldt]

Is this a new Dan Folkes one or something?

[clever sable]

Thanks, btw

[clever sable]

It's randoms

[bright veldt]

Ah ok

1. Tyrannosaurus (12m, 10 tons)
2. Giganotosaurus (13m, 9 tons)
3. Deinocheirus (12m, 8.5 tons)
   4 + 5. Spinosaurus (14m, 7.5 tons), Tyrannotitan (12m, 7.5 tons)
   6 + 7. Carcharodontosaurus & Mapusaurus (12m, 7 tons)
4. Saurophagonax (13m, 6.5 tons)
   9, 10, + 11. Acrocanthosaurus (12m, 5.5 tons), Therizinosaurus (9m, 5.5 tons), Tarbosaurus (11m, 5.5 tons)

[clever sable]

Acro is on the list! (Acro is my favorite dinosaur)

[white matrix]

I will say I believe Carch likely was closer to 8

[bright veldt]

I've heard that before but haven't seen anything to validate it

[white matrix]

Can I take to dms bc I hate this cooldown

https://x.com/beagliam/status/1696005102144721238?s=46

Beagliam (@Beagliam)

Irritator challengeri skeletal, I am still not dead but have become incredibly busy since the summer has ended. Wanted to post a quick update since it’s been a while.

Twitter · Aug 28, 2023, 3:41 AM

[slow marsh]

soon..

[storm heron]

Hmm, I could be wrong but it seems like Mapusaurus has a proportionally larger head than Giganotosaurus.

[keen forum]

carch might be in 3rd with the duck

[keen forum]

wait a min doesn't this mean the giga holotype is also this size since it and big mapu are the same size

did random just nerf big giga again

[pearl briar]

what have random done with my boy mapu...

[next moss]

poor mapu got downsized💀

[chilly knot]

[clever sable]

Shhhhhhhhh

[next moss]

[pearl briar]

bruh

[keen forum]

yep with the other being around 14 XD

[chilly knot]

I buy that

[keen forum]

sadly i agree with random the 12m one is better

[chilly knot]

based on titan and pubis

[viscid surge]

Is this fr? I had no idea irritator looked so skinny

[heady thunder]

Is that a baby irritator? Looks kinda, undeveloped.

[astral kelp]

That's a mature irritator specimen.

[quaint isle]

I really thought Irritator was bigger than that

And he's skinny as heck

[young otter]

baby spino go rawr

[short sigil]

Looks like mapu got downsized huh

[slow marsh]

^^

[short sigil]

Proportions based on giga make me wanna trust the lower estimate over the other one, if that 14m is truly based on Tyranotitan then i'll go with the animal it's closer to

[slow marsh]

Well, i have to agree with that

[keen forum]

i kinda agree yeah, why use one of the most basal creature in the family line when what might be your direct ancestor is right there in Giga

[last iron]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/5bc38840-232e-424a-9faf-a5f8e5fbe94a/scale-to-width/755

[heady thunder]

Put a tomistoma there, then we talk

[viscid surge]

Ok I’m convinced, sarco really is a ghari-

[last iron]

Downsized over the years

[gray ruin]

9~10.2 meters

[wary junco]

it's literally none of the above 😛 Sarcosuchus is a pholidosaurid, not even part of eusuchia let alone crocodylia

[light osprey]

Giving gaviala-

[wary junco]

the funny thing is, morphology isn't even a reliable way to classify the living species of crocodylia 😂 ... morphological analyses used to put Tomistoma in Crocodyloidea, but molecular studies show that they actually belong to Gavialoidea

[last iron]

Wasn’t saying it was any of those 3 animals but go off

[wary junco]

wasn't accusing you specifically of that, I'd noticed others saying it's a derived gharial / croc and thought it needed clarifying

[stiff osprey]

the skull doesn't even look anything like a gharial, people just see ''snout tip is wider than the middle'' and therefore hmmm gharial

in reality, Sarco's snout is as wide if not wider relative to body size than the average crocodile

[fallow stirrup]

Could sucho swim irl?

[sudden wind]

No it would fly over pounds of water and snatch its preys like an osprey

[light osprey]

For me the “gharial affinities” of S. imperator are mainly just its long angular, which probably pops up variously in Crocodilian taxon that I’m not familiar with.

[iron halo]

As a pound of water I can confirm

[sudden wind]

Real and true

[fallow stirrup]

I mean was it semi aquatic

[sudden wind]

Depends of your definition of semi aquatic, but I'd say the average folk would consider Suchomimus to be one.

[tranquil quartz]

Probably a Wader

[sudden wind]

I would also say that it was potentially semi aquatic.

It would also have been capable of swimming. I don't see why not.

[fallow plank]

Could deinocheirus swim? Or did it sank

[light osprey]

Not dense enough to sink I think, a swimmer I suppose

[sudden wind]

As long as you are as dense or less dense than water with your center of gravity close to the middle of your body, you can easily swim at the surface. It's once you are denser that you will need to do quite considerable efforts to stay buoyant.

Iirc, the average theropod density is estimated to be about 0.96 to 0.98 so they would be capable of floating. Though, if they were feathered and these feathers weren't really water proof, I think it may change the balance a bit.

[fallow stirrup]

So could suchomimis dive like in game?

[sudden wind]

Iirc, it would have a rather hard time to and would need to put in good efforts to keep itself underwater and not float.

[light osprey]

Yeah contrary to I think a few members of its family, it exhibits pretty typical bone density for a theropod?

[iron halo]

He just like me fr

[heady thunder]

Deep breath and dive

[light osprey]

He’s one for the seas Fr

[astral kelp]

I'm pretty sure sucho was more terrestrial

[heady thunder]

Sucho reminds me of a brown bear, but cooler cos croc head

[light osprey]

Bear inspired Spinosaurid art does go hard 🔥

[night bluff]

@astral kelp well remember suchomimus means "crocodile mimic" and I believe had fish in it's diet. So it would have to have consistent interaction with water.

[honest wave]

Names do not always reflect reality. Also, while sucho did fish, it was primarily a terrestrial or wading hunter.

[night bluff]

Understood, I was simply suggesting the likely hood of a semi-aquatic (favoring land) nature.

[last iron]

Therizinosaurus cheloniformis

[honest wave]

Depends on what you mean by semi aquatic. If you mean like how it functions in the game, then almost certainly not. It was probably more similar in hunting style to a heron mixed with a grizzly

[night bluff]

Well this now depends on I guess the solid definition of "semi-aquatic" as I do not know it. Would a polar bear be semi-aquatic?

[honest wave]

Yes

[night bluff]

Then I would say suchomimus is semi-aquatic.

[honest wave]

Suchomimus likely didn’t dive into the water though. Comparing it to a polar bear is not a reasonable analogy.

Again, it is more likely it hunted like a heron or grizzly, waiting in shallow water or by the shore to grab prey out of the water.

[night bluff]

This is fair, then to what degree is a grizzly aquatic. It can swim handily, hunts in rivers and streams etc.

I am simply confused cause I thought this was just wether or not Suchomimus was aquatic or not. If it hunted in rivers and waded in streams is that not a semi-aquatic lifestyle or am I being too literal.

[bright veldt]

There are no non-avian dinosaurs that are solidly aquatic. All of those that have been proposed to are controversial af at the very least.

Regardless of whether you think spinosaurs were properly trained aquatic or not, Suchomimus has always been the species tested that’s the most terrestrial.

It was likely a good swimmer given it primarily lived its life around water-bodies eating fish, but it wasn’t an aquatic animal.

It also doesn’t help that, while preferring fish, Suchomimus would’ve easily been the top predator on land as well.

[white matrix]

Hello

[open roost]

Any modders making their own sarcosuchus? because the official one is squishy

[jagged trellis]

wrong channel for that and official sarco hits like a brick house with high survival and cycling powers, lower end hp be darned, so eh

[bright veldt]

Servers can also modify stats. You don’t need a mod to do that.

[honest wave]

Grizzlies typically do not pursue prey in the water. At most they will charge into the water after something, but hunting fish is something they do by hooking them out of the water on the shoreline.

The currently most accepted idea for typical spinosaurid hunting methods involves standing at the water’s edge or wading in essentially the same way.

[light osprey]

all of them?

[covert lintel]

tbf i think i've seen images/videos of grizzlies hunting while standing in the water, but it's generally quite shallow water. doesn't really make 'em more semi-aquatic than herons, anyway - standing in water for a lil bit to grab a fish is barely any more semi-aquatic than just grabbing 'em from the shore.

[honest wave]

That’s what I was trying to convey. They will stand in water, but they don’t usually pursue prey while fully swimming.

[night bluff]

Just looping back to the aquatic point, properly defined. Semi-aquatic means growing equally well in or adjacent to water; also frequenting but not wholly living in water. So to sum would Sucho not fall under such parameters?

[bright veldt]

Because it has no adaptations for doing so. It’s built basically identically to other theropod groups. No dense bones or other aquatic adaptations.

[night bluff]

Does suchomimus not share that weird splitting jaw?

[bright veldt]

No spinosaur had splitting jaws. Their jaws were just a bit more stretchy and thus could swallow larger prey items than the initial space would suggest.

Although I’ll say that this isn’t really special to spinosaurs. I know a study found carnotaurus in particular having a similar ability with its skull

[night bluff]

For the betterment of my knowledge, that weird lower jaw structure is unique to spinosaurus alone or just a handful of spinosaurids?

That's interesting, that makes sense though, I can see the weird opening gullet having use everywhere.

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind that the jaws don’t literally split. They just are capable of cranial kinesis, kind of like what a pelican can do but not as extreme

[night bluff]

Yes, I was using split for lack of a better term, but is that not primarily an adaptation for helping catch their ideal prey?

[bright veldt]

No it is. Albeit cranial kinesis is not exactly unique to them. Carnotaurus had something similar, likely for swallowing larger chunks of meat at a time.

[night bluff]

Ok I also had my times backwards suchomimus is older than Spinosaurus right? So what you said prior is that Spinosaurus had shown adaptations to be semi-aquatic, whereas Suchomimus hadn't displayed such. If I understood properly.

Like suchomimus definitely didn't have that paddle tail, or webbed feet, just a big ol' theropod that just happen to like water and belong in the spinosaurid family.

[bright veldt]

Ye

[night bluff]

That makes more sense. I feel like the term Semi-aquatic still applys by webster's means, but it wouldn't have any real adaptation, arguably the jaw thing, but realistically not.

[astral kelp]

I think ceratosaurus also had something similar

[little mauve]

Holiday & Witmer 2008 and Cost et al. 2020 dispute functional cranial kinesis in non-maniraptoran theropods. It's an old idea & common in birds & squamates but most dinosaurs are missing the kinematic linkages to permit movement

Nabavizadeh & Weishampel's new book goes into it quite a bit

[clever sable]

Possibly up to 10.6 meters using the HW of the largest terminonaris specimen

[clever sable]

And idk if it would be the top predator in the water when you got a 4.3 tonne sarcosuchus

[light osprey]

I think the paper on I. challengeri concluded it would’ve?

Or the author at the very least

[bright veldt]

Suchomimus is still larger and taller.

[sage cave]

Popping in to ask for a sucho skeletal

[bright veldt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542776901442338816/1136013955312140410/scanned_material_sucho.png

[clever sable]

Suchomimus is the largest carnivore in it's environment

[sage cave]

Ur the best! Thank u

[clever sable]

Terrestrial or not

[light osprey]

This looks delicious 🤤

[clever sable]

Also using the HW-TL of terminonaris you get 10.6 meters and 5+ tonnes although since several other methods using terminonaris get ~9 meters and the 10.6 is the outlier it may not be as accurate (terminonaris is one of the closest relatives of sarcosuchus a d is the most complete pholidosaur) but generally I stick to around 9 meters and 4 tonnes because it's safer

[compact leaf]

there’s some undescribed material from elrhaz I need to take a look at again

[light osprey]

Kind of shorter than I expected, how long is this fella?

[clever sable]

You talking about the stuff from 2022? They found some sorta large gar like creature and the skull of a juvenile sarcosuchus along with a couple other things I don't remember

[compact leaf]

no there’s a brachiosaurid from there with some other miscellaneous material

[clever sable]

Hmmmm, erlhaz is getting more and more interesting

[dusky prairie]

I can’t seam to chat in ptb stat discussion anymore. Every time I try it takes me to this chat. Anyone else having this issue?

[chilly knot]

common elrhaz W but we need more eocarcharia

[compact leaf]

it was found with an indeterminate spinosaurid (probably sucho), ouranosaurus, sarco, and of course hybodus, it’s always hybodus

[clever sable]

Erlhaz is criminally underrated

[bright veldt]

Or whatever species it’s not wastebasketing in. The only proper hybodus are two species from Early Jurassic Europe

[compact leaf]

of course I just think it’s funny that ‘hybodus’ pops up all over the place

[light osprey]

Where are these Brachiosaurs coming from 🗣️

[clever sable]

Uhhhh dilo

[heady thunder]

Dumptruck

[compact leaf]

there’s an absolute mountain of undescribed brachiosaurids from all over the place

[light osprey]

Big paleo doesn’t want us to know about this ghost lineage of Brachiosaurs

[heady thunder]

I just want, a decently complete brachi man.

[bright veldt]

Giraffatitan

[compact leaf]

even including the undescribed ones they like to have huge gaps in their fossil record and then just show up in random places basically unchanged

[compact leaf]

I can’t access the paper

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/starwars-anakin-anakin-skywalker-if-it-works-attack-of-the-clones-gif-15304092

[sullen cairn]

give abstract i want more elrhaz stuff

[compact leaf]

I can’t even find that

[clever sable]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/museums/ct-ent-dispatch-sahara-paul-sereno-dinosaurs-20230106-hiynvjw4wrahjbt5jova6h476e-story.html is it this?

[compact leaf]

no it's a bit of an older paper, I want to say it's from the 80s

I mean I can find the collection number and all that but I can't access the paper, I really just want measurements

I'll keep digging and try to find it

[bright veldt]

@warped peak What 'higher estimates'. An 11 meter hadrosaur is going to be in that size range.

Hell, the 6.5 ton estimate isn't really found anywhere and is just a broad estimation based on scaling various saurolophines.

[storm heron]

I have to ask, how do Moose seem capable of diving and being submerged for quiet a while?

Afaik, they do not seem to display any particular adaptations that can explain their ability to do dive in their skeletons.

[storm heron]

Also, I wonder where the COM of this animal would be.

[steep needle]

do yall have an up to date Titanis skeletal? I haven't been keeping up with it and need to draw one for an art trade

[tiny holly]

Moose are weird, their traits make them pretty good and just generally swimming, but not really at diving and staying submerged? Their fur is a great insulator, unsurprising considering the climate they're from. This means even when it cold water they can stay quite warm. But by trapping air it's kind of just a life jacket that keeps them afloat, meaning it requires effort to submerge. Their feet are quite broad and splay out which makes them both great snowshoes and great paddles. Their general nose/muzzle anatomy is also well built for browsing on aquatic vegetation.

I will say I think there's a reason we've never seen them dive particularly deep, and they never stay underwater for long. The only thing I'm not sure about is their bone density which is usually a pretty significant skeletal feature that points to more aquatic adaptations. But considering they're basically wearing life jackets I wouldn't expect it to be that noteworthy compared to other deer?

Moose kinda go to show though how a lot of the features that make something a good swimmer are unlikely to be found in bones, what with stuff like their insulating fur and their soft flexible noses

[storm heron]

Yea, which is why I find it possible that many extinct animals that we know of, including dinosaurs, may have been spend more time in water than we think.

[keen forum]

a 10.6m sucho weighing 5tons is rather ridiculous

at like 11.5iirc it was in the 4ton range

[bright veldt]

He said sarco dude, and the 5.5 ton estimate for sucho comes from a recent study by Sereno tmk

[marble stone]

Fun fact camels are also great swimmers and have been observed swimming to islands.

[cloud dagger]

Is basilosaurus valid or is it eocetus nowadays? Still under dispute?

[bright veldt]

Never heard of that before, and upon looking it up there’s nothing to really suggest they’re the same thing either. If anything Eocetus might not be a basilosaur at all.

[storm heron]

Really? now this is news to me

[keen forum]

ah i read that as sucho my bad

[heady thunder]

A lot of things swim very well, seeing a camel in the middle of the ocean tho is pretty hilarious.

[storm heron]

Im aware, but swimming in the ocean to islands is not a something that every terrestrial animal is capable of achieving.

[covert lintel]

why would it be eocetus? if basilosaurus as a whole was synonymous with eocetus, eocetus would be the junior synonym, and thus the genus that's no longer valid

[storm heron]

Also another great example of this is Asian Water buffalo, which is also capable of swimming extremely well and submerging itself occasionally.

[bright veldt]

Water Buffalo actually have some aquatic adaptations though. They have higher set eyes and a greater bone density.

[storm heron]

Is their bone density higher than that of Cape Buffalo?

[tranquil quartz]

In php season 1 do we know what that lizard is that was feasting on the flies on the Tarbosaur?

[bright veldt]

Generic lizard

[tranquil quartz]

Ok was just wondering if it was a described species or something

[arctic turtle]

Honest question if a modern day white rhino and a Styracosaurus went head to head who would win? Or if 2 rhinos vs a Styracosaurus who would win?

[light oxide]

Neither -- I don't think any of them would have a reason to fight unless they were competing for food . . . Which is unlikely as the rhinos would've had grass to eat while the Styracosaurus would've eaten the other plant materials that it could digest.

[arctic turtle]

Territory?

[stiff osprey]

rhinoceros
will not fight except for food

I think you're thinking of the wrong animal mate

Rhinos will fight you if you breathe weird in their direction

[gray zealot]

dont they attack things that arent even alive because they thought it moved too much

[heady thunder]

Rhinos are blind and paranoid

[light oxide]

Oh yeah -- I forgot about that part.

💀

[heady thunder]

Tho captive rhinos are very nice

[compact leaf]

rhinos don’t have particularly bad eyesight that’s a myth, but they’re very sensitive about their personal space

[keen forum]

https://tenor.com/view/i-took-that-personally-keegan-michael-key-saturday-night-live-personal-sensitive-gif-21648238

[light oxide]

Question -- were there any Kentrosaurus fossils that were found in the Morrison Formation? Or was it Miragaia?

Cause I know of at least 3 formations that were around the same period of time of the Jurassic (Kimmeridgian to Tithonian).

[rose thorn]

Neither, Alcovasaurus, Hesperosaurus, and Stegosaurus are the only stegosaurs from Morrison.

Alcova could be lumped into Mira I'm pretty sure that's just due to the nature of shared genera between lourhina and morrison

[compact leaf]

it might not be miragaia itself but it’s a pretty similar animal

[light oxide]

Huh. Noted.

So we actually only got 4 playables from the Morrison Formation. Interesting.

[rose thorn]

As of 2019, Alcova had started to be lumped into Mira

[light oxide]

?

[sullen cairn]

that's assuming they include m. longispinus as a miragaia species

[light oxide]

True

[novel atlas]

https://vxtwitter.com/theeverett1107/status/1696905567221002613?t=So0QiZUkR4hOVKePS2mT6A&s=19

[light oxide]

Eh, these Deinonychus rock better, in my opinion:

(Gabriel N. U.)

(Emily Willoughby)

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind Bakker was the first to properly argue for birds being dinosaurs at all, let alone suggesting feathered dinosaurs.

[light oxide]

Yeah I know, I was just talking about visual preferences in general.

Hence the "in my opinion" part.

[flat pond]

Meanwhile with Panoplosaurus. Note this an image of a model that I found but it’s still a beautiful model.

[light oxide]

That's a VERY good model, ngl.

[flat pond]

The guy who does these kinds of models also sells them to people either fully put together and painted or apart and you can paint them yourself

[clever sable]

Wasn't there a guy long before him but that theory got thrown away?

[sudden wind]

It is excellent

tho this artist only do their theropods lipless

[little mauve]

There have been a handful of others but Thomas Henry Huxley first suggested it in the 1870s, theory wasn't thrown away so much as sidelined. Then it was Bakker's teacher John Ostrom who described Deinonychus in 1969 and really revived the theory.

[bright veldt]

There were plenty that mentioned the idea but Bakker’s the one that stuck with it and refused to budge

[clever sable]

Ah ok

[light osprey]

Sad 😔

[heady thunder]

What a chad.

[viscid surge]

Theyre all pretty compelling apart from a, thats 100% disproved

[stiff osprey]

B is easily the most likely

[compact leaf]

they learned interdimensional travel from the brachiosaurids and hybodus

[clear lava]

Facts though

[light osprey]

I’m going with A. waiting for Sereno to cancel me

[clever sable]

How large is the ouranosaurus in this skeletal

[heady thunder]

Uhm, like 9m.

[viscid surge]

Taller than a man, and larger than the square by a considerable margin. Just from looking at it it looks like 8 or 9 metres

[bright veldt]

8 meters

[clever sable]

I was wondering more about it's weight but 8-9 meters sounds about right

[sullen cairn]

8m standing length so axial length would be a bit more

[bright veldt]

An Ouranosaurus of that size is like 2.5 tons, which is about average for a large iguanodont/hadrosaur

I believe I got that from referencing GSP’s weight estimate of Ouranosaurus and scaling up to the more updated size

[viscid surge]

More than a cow in weight

[clever sable]

Thanks

[robust sky]

like 9 meters?

its huge

[cloud dagger]

There was some text on Wikipedia that got me confused but I guess I used half of my brain when I read it lol. So it was only about B. drazindai that is now Eocetus drazindai😅

[light osprey]

He’s a little Hadrosauromorph ☺️

[tough parcel]

Real and true!

[honest wave]

god ouranosaurus is so weird, absolutely amazing animal

[light osprey]

Elrhaz try to not have unique fauna challenge (impossible)

[compact leaf]

we need more elrhaz material it’s such an interesting formation

[sullen cairn]

revolutionary early cretaceous fauana such as allosauroids abelisauroids and spinosaurids, and styracosternans and sauropods

[compact leaf]

the only two sauropods from elrhaz are also weird, it’s a random brachiosaurid and a weird little diplodocoid

[sullen cairn]

any luck with finding anything on that guy

[compact leaf]

not a bit

basically the only record we have is that it exists and it was discovered by a french paleontologist in the 70s

oh great things have gotten worse

ok false alarm it's a different formation, I though I found a reference to it but this paper isn't it, it's basically just another north african sauropod but this one is (as of 2010) referred to either turiasauria or camarasauridae which is really weird

[astral kelp]

Would the Nemegt Formation be similar to say Africa's, Okavango Delta?

[sullen cairn]

cabao?

[compact leaf]

yeah it's cabao

I found the collection number for that one too, that sauropod is known from teeth and as it stands they still appear to be classified as a camarasaurid

[sullen cairn]

poor guy

[clever sable]

Nigersaurus was doing something special because erlhaz appears to have been a hostile environment

[sullen cairn]

wait a minute cabao seems pretty late for a camarasaurid

I'm like 80% sure it got redated to aptian-albian at some point

[compact leaf]

oh yeah for a camarasaurid to be there it would be bizarre, the teeth most closely resemble jobaria or camarasaurus itself apparently

[sullen cairn]

yeah aptian-albian as of 2023

[bright veldt]

The Nemegt was a large temperate floodplain with a lot of water bodies and swamps. The Gobi desert was to the west and had various mountain ranges in the other directions.

[torn sluice]

Hello

Anyone got any rhamphorynchus facts?

[stiff osprey]

There used to be a ton of species of Rhamphorhynchus, all of which turned out to be growth stages of Rhamphorhynchus muensteri

[torn sluice]

That's intriguing. I just was wondering cause the Rhamph is one of my favorite dinos and I'm excited for it to come to game

[white matrix]

I'd like to file a complaint with evolution regarding Omnidens' existence

Why? Why was this allowed to happen?

[elfin pulsar]

Got a clear pic?

[elfin pulsar]

Dam

[white matrix]

I know Jaekelopterus is bigger but Omnidens is scarier for some reason

[nocturne gazelle]

Reminds me of an oversized bobbit worm

[nocturne gazelle]

NO way I just heard a video say that dinosaurs may have emitted fire like dragons from their nostrils.......

Oh it provided a disclaimer by saying it "hasn't yet been proven"...... but hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

This a pretty big theri though...

[white matrix]

"It hasn't been proven" I wonder why

Lemme guess, you're watching a video about the top ten dinosaurs

[nocturne gazelle]

Gonna have to activate my brain cell to figure this one out

Nah it's called "Dinosaurs of the Late Cretaceous". It's so far talked more about plants, aquatic reptiles, pterosaurs, and insects than... true dinosaurs...

[white matrix]

That checks out

[nocturne gazelle]

For reference most train cars are around 10 ft tall...

That's a 40 ft tall theri...

It just said "By the way, the fire could be cold"

Maybe they meant a cool flame? But that's certainly not what they made it sound like...

Uh... I'm also fairly certain there hasn't been a dinosaur with around 1000 teeth? Nigersaurus is the closest at around 500...

Especially not on a hadrosaur like it says?

It just said that a mosa could probably take down a ship like it did in JW Dominion while calling it "the second episode of jurassic park" 💀

[white matrix]

Imma take a wild guess and assume this is not a native English speaking channel

Also isn't 1000 teeth heading into snail territory?

[white matrix]

That doesn't even really look like a Theri

[nocturne gazelle]

It seems to be narrated by ai yea

It's hard to tell but the script could be ai generated as well but I'm not 100% sure.

Channel is based in the U.S.

[nocturne gazelle]

it looks like a fat struthi with claws almost

[woven vortex]

I hate misleading videos like these

[woeful falcon]

Sounds AI generated too if you ask me

[last iron]

That’s like average sauropod sized LOL

A Tyrannosaurus Rex’s worst nightmare

[lavish frigate]

Oh hey I watched…..approximately 3.1 seconds of that once

Then it gave me brain rot so I stopped 💀

[fallow plank]

Question, are Pliosaurs (the ones including liople,Sachi and Krono) related to turtles or smth? I could be wrong

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/obiwan-possibly-star-wars-gif-9950995

If they are together in Pantestudines, Sauropterygia would be I think the most distantly related clade from them

[snow python]

Which one is more accurate?

[fallow plank]

Second,I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest carno had osterderms

[tough parcel]

They're both the same, just differently posed. If you want a modeling ref, go for random's (first one)

Btw @fallow plank we do have evidence of feature scales on Carnotaurus, they're just randomly placed on the body

[fallow plank]

Oh

[sullen cairn]

isn't hartmans a bit oversized by bone dimensions

just checked hartman's femur is ~111.3cm
grillo and delcourt have it at ~103cm

that dorsal though

[wary panther]

Anyone know what large Tyrannosaurus Rex Specimen the Vividen is Referring to? Apparently he said it wasn't the "Brute" specimen or the "toe bone" Specimen but he said it was larger then Sue and Scotty? It could be that it isn't but I could find the name for the specimen he was talking about.

[royal mural]

Yes.

Its E.D Cope aka Copium Rex

[wary panther]

What's that?

[royal mural]

the specimen 🦍

[wary panther]

You said Copium rex, no way thats the actual specimen's name

[royal mural]

Nah thats just how he calls but E.D Cope is

[wary panther]

let me look it up

[royal mural]

You wont find much its not really known

[wary panther]

VIvden said larger then Scotty? I hope it is good

[royal mural]

From the estimates he has yes

[wary panther]

Meh, its probably going to be labeled "To fragmentary" maybe it might get a pass the way the Giga Dentary specimen did

[royal mural]

just wait till it comes out, If it is theres another present trust me :)

[wary panther]

Man I hope it is, then the 70% larger article that was done about rex might actually be taken seriously, Rex could get pretty big

I'm pretty sure Scotty was 28 when he died, he could of gained an extra couple hundred pounds if he could hit 30

Even looking at the Rex specimens there really isn't that big off a shift in mass

Anyone know if we have any fully grown Tyrannosaurus Rexes? I think the only one close was Sue and Trix but they get outweighed by Scotty, who is slighty younger

[compact leaf]

Sue and Scotty were both adults, we have a few other fully grown rexes too

[wary panther]

Stan isn't fully grown right?

[compact leaf]

I want to say Stan is an adult too but I can’t remember off the top of my head

[wary panther]

Wasn't the Maxium for Rex age 30? and though Scotty was at the peak of life he was still 28, I think Trix could've been 30, Forgot the age of Sue though but she was old as well.

From what I know Victoria was on the smaller end while being 6.8 tons, but I don't know if we came up with a max for her, or actual any Rex or theropod for what their Max size could've been

Hello? Anyone there?

Ah well, guess I got to wait for what the Vivden has to say about E.D Rex

[lavish frigate]

Are most not fully grown? Is it not that some were just younger full adults?

[heady thunder]

Idc much about the size unless its like, 15 tons lol, but that rex art goes HARD

[wary panther]

it sure does look good, looks as if its a massive theropod

[wary panther]

We don't have many fully grown specimens, we have young adults and few at max age ( probs die before that)

[heady thunder]

I like cos it looks bulky, but not fat.

[wary panther]

There is a difference?!!?!?

[covert lintel]

i think considering only those at their Maximum Age to be fully grown is a bit unhelpful, given that most animals are considered fully grown long before the end of their average lifespan

[heady thunder]

Yes? Like, compare a bear to a beefy tiger.

[wary panther]

I don't think anyone wants to give a estimate on a fully grown Victoria

[covert lintel]

yes. consider the difference between an average fat person, and a well-fed weightlifter.

[royal mural]

Its no less than 10 tons from every estimate ive saw

[wary panther]

Did you see 8.8 or 9.7?

[heady thunder]

Since he said no less then 10, then he didnt, lel

[next moss]

apparently scaling via femur length makes cope about 9.5t or 9.5 - 10.8t, take this with a grain of salt tho because am not sure tbh

[wary panther]

Wait he said no less then 10? Im goofy

he put 6-7 average for Rex..............

[covert lintel]

yeah i still stand by that, i just realized i may have misinterpreted the message i replied to

[wary panther]

6 ton estimate not existing anymore

[covert lintel]

proof or it didn't happen

[compact leaf]

7 or 8 tons is still a safe average for rex afaik, sue and scotty are outliers that push the max

[wary panther]

Saurian made a blog about it. 6 tons isn't an estimate, 7.5 on the other hand......

[royal mural]

cope isnt the only specimen thats gonna come

[heady thunder]

Well, ye

[wary panther]

7-8 is a good average

[covert lintel]

using a game studio as a source
(especially the one still pushing anatosaurus for e. annectens)

[wary panther]

Didn't uhhh, every rex Specimen supposed larger get debunked?

[wary panther]

My sources are real, trust?!?11

[royal mural]

Its still getting prepared i just said cope is not the only specimen thats gonna come didnt say the other one is bigger

[wary panther]

Oh, nice

[royal mural]

But maybe it is who knows

[wary panther]

Still waiting on a specimen thats not so fragmentary that we can say was larger then Scotty

[compact leaf]

are they really still pushing for that? I knew they were a few years back but I thought the whole anatosaurus thing died off

[wary panther]

Giganotosaurus gets a literal Jaw, Rex can't even get past 10.4 without side eyes 😦

[covert lintel]

dunno how hard they're pushing for it, but last i checked they were still calling it anatosaurus

[wary panther]

While the anatosaurus stuff was.... to say at the least "Cuko Cuko" 6 tons doesn't exist for a Rex anymore

[compact leaf]

I never said anything about 6 ton rex?

[wary panther]

I was talking to the other guy, but you were the only one who brough it up, mb

Now for some real mind boggling stuff, what if evolution was so quick in dinosaurus we think of them as different species

Imagine an allosaurus, you know, existing for millions of years and not going through any new adaptions

[royal mural]

then imagine what would happen to early dinosaurs being isolated from everything for over 100 million years

[covert lintel]

idk about that, but a problem with palaeontology that's not really solvable is that the way a species is usually defined (by which animals it can reproduce with (already not a perfect system (sturddlefish moment)) is completely unusable since we can't really genetically test most extinct animals, so other methods have to be used. in reality, if a. fragilis was alive today, it'd probably be at least 4 different species, possibly multiple genera.

[wary panther]

i mean humans went through a lot of evolution in the past million years we existed

Could it be that say, Allosaurus as I brought up, could of evolved to become much larger?

[light osprey]

Oh hell naw, what now?

[wary panther]

I don't have a good example really, I can't use Crocodiles since they all look a different going into their history, can't use birds because they spread out

Anyone got any good examples?

I don't want to use Tyrannosaurids because how and what Tyrannosaurs rex evolved from is unknown right now, or that we are pointing to an asian realtive that could have came to america, or maybe Dasp?

Strange that, Tyrannosaurus had a completely different build from the other known American Tyrannosaurids and had completey replaced both of them in a short million years

I got a film theory guys, I will get to the bottom of this

[covert lintel]

that's actually one of the old theories abt the whole saurophaganax situation, iirc. not sure if it holds any water in the modern day, though.
it's pretty much impossible that no evolution was happening, but not all of it may be identifiable, either bc it was very gradual, wasn't in the bones, or the fossil record is too sparse to be sure of what's going on.
there are some known instances of dinosaurs evolving in the fossil record, though - if memory serves, t. horridus (thats triceratops. forgot to specify) is found earlier in the fossil record than the slightly larger t. prorsus, so one may have evolved into the other.

[wary panther]

As long as there a changes found in the animal that can constitute as evolution, we might need to start looking at other species and trying our best to find out if they really are completely different, or simply more evolved

I could see Allosaurus being Saurophaganax at a later point in time, though that is just a really hot topic

[covert lintel]

eh, delving too far into that just results in lumping all genera together. there's a reason genera and species get to be paraphyletic

[light osprey]

I could’ve sworn Saurophaganax appears in the latest Morrison layers

[wary panther]

Your right, if we tried to find that out it would take at least hundreds of years

Now I have to look up if Allosaurus co existed with Saurophaganax in the latest Morrison layers, or maybe a group of certain allosaurus got bigger?

[royal mural]

btw what do you guys think is the Marine Megapredator coming in november?

[wary panther]

Its bout to go hard, I don't even know what it is tho, but any marine megapredator is a W

[royal mural]

From what ive heard the Meg fanboys will cry

Right One of the largest, if the things i got told are true though its nothing against that beast thats gonna come

[wary panther]

They aren't as bad as blue whale fanboys, who really think in all of earth's history that currently we would hold the largest marine Mammal

[royal mural]

Hahahah nah blue whales ez food for that beast

[wary panther]

I swear when anything gets announced for being bigger then a blue whale everyone says "Estimate is to large?!?!11" or "Too fragmentary"

[compact leaf]

people say that because that's always exactly what happens

someone announces something supposedly bigger than the blue whale and then it gets downsized

[covert lintel]

our point in history is still a point in history. if we were talking at some point in the mesozoic (which point varies depending on who you ask), we'd be alive at the same time as the then-largest land animal ever. the modern day is not immune to having unique features

[wary panther]

people after finding out how large winged creatures could actually get

[compact leaf]

what does that have to do with the blue whale or what I said?

[wary panther]

My bad

[covert lintel]

exactly. some people prioritize spectacle above all else, and then the ones who actually want to get the right sizes for these things come along and downsize 'em. par for the course

[sullen cairn]

as per wilsoni description iirc d. torosus wilsoni and horneri represent an anagenetic lineage that led to tyrannosaurini

[wary panther]

Its just when we find animals we think are the largest, humanity always get a rude awakening

[tranquil quartz]

I mean it appears after Allo and Torvo go so its pretty late that it shows up

[wary panther]

I heard about that study, it was a nice find

[tranquil quartz]

Ceratosaurus was still kicking about as well

[wary panther]

So, its could be a possibilty of what I just said?

[wary panther]

Sad that Ceratosaurus didn't get any bigger and stay a Mid-Sized theropod.

[sullen cairn]

tendaguru has a pretty big ceratosaurid

[light osprey]

What was your idea again?

[sullen cairn]

wait not tendaguru it was gokwe

[wary panther]

gokwe?

[wary panther]

My idea was that allosaurus wasn't a larger Sauro, but simply evolved to become larger in the later Jurassic

Wait no, I meant it the other way around

I mean, do we actually believe an animal wouldn't evolve for the millions of years it was around?

Torvosaurus on the other hand... Yeah I have no clue

[light osprey]

Well, morphologically you can debate it’s position as a distinct genus or temporal speciation, in simplicity it is simply a evolutionary Allosauroid probably derived from these Allosaurus populations to inhibit a niche during some environmental changes over a long period of time.

[wary panther]

Yeah, what that guy said

[light osprey]

Coolio

[wary panther]

I just made a scientific point that wasn't dumb, I am now as smart as you all!🤓

Now for a real hot take, Spinosaurus lived in mega packs that would feed on mass swarms of fish

I have no evidence for this, but trust, geese do the same thing and since Dinosaur = birds means its true, impeccable logic ( even though some dinosaur species/genus are very far from birds)

[light osprey]

It’s real and true, best Spinosaurus ecology I’ve heard yet.

[wary panther]

I have no reason to not believe Spinosaurus would hunt fish in mega packs that ruled the swamps

No one disagrees? Fine, I'll come up with another hot topic

Daktoraptor is secretly a primitive, carnivores turtle

[royal mural]

What do yall think would have happened if early dinosaurs got isolated from the mainland on a island that was bigger than great britain for over 100 million years

[wary panther]

Nothing

They would all die because of inbreeding or somethin

[royal mural]

i meant what do yall think they evolved into

[wary panther]

Mammoths tried that glitch, it got patched real quick

[royal mural]

inbreeding? wdym by that

[wary panther]

I mean, all on one continent, no new species, I could see inbreeding being their downfall

[woeful falcon]

Island gigantism or dwarfism

[wary panther]

Depends

It could start of as Gigantism, then they all slowly became smaller trying to survive

[woeful falcon]

Either way bigger than great britain is a decently fair sized land mass

[royal mural]

Bc that actually happened to southern alaska / chugach afaik not sure though cus its portrayed differently on different animations/maps

It was isolated from the mainland till the mid cretaceous i think

[woeful falcon]

Also depends on the size of the population(s)

[wary panther]

it is fairly big, but you can't have 0 species traveling their to bring diversity, we don't want the same species constantly evolving to suit its needs

[woeful falcon]

That happens all the time though, animals that live on islands aren't inbreeding themselves to death

[wary panther]

Imagine an elephant, trapped on an island, with the same vegetation for millions of years, constantly evolving probs won't survive for even 2 million years

[light osprey]

Same thing that happened in Great Britain during the Mesozoic

[royal mural]

i was trying to see if there was any fossil evidence found but none afaik from the time it was isolated (ik its hard though cus its mostly mountains and even a national park i think)

[woeful falcon]

How do you think island dwarfism happens

[wary panther]

Idk really, might be due to environmental needs?

Big becomes small and small becomes Big? I really didn't research that enough

[royal mural]

Due to the continental drift that island/archipelago went prolly through different climate zones