paleontology

[white matrix]

can someone say to path of titans system requirements

[night skiff]

Really? Well if you finish your book let us know! I would happily read it. Edit: never mind I forgot it was in your native language lol

[night skiff]

Maybe ask for that at #path-of-titans

[split oasis]

I’m curious but could pachys eat meat IRL? (Probably not) I could just google it

[white matrix]

They did have canines from what I know. I am very unsure on this though.

[covert lintel]

...how. just...... how

[stiff osprey]

Could they? Probably, I doubt it would kill them or something. Did they? No, not any more than a deer or cow eats meat

[stiff osprey]

(and yes I know deer and cows eat meat once every thousand years, that's what I mean)

holy crap a 2 minute slowmode

[slim ridge]

Maybe? But sharp canines are also found in plenty purely herbivorous animals so it’s not something that exactly tells us that

[pearl briar]

guess the carcharodontosaurid

[white matrix]

Dinosaur

[hushed valve]

giga

[white matrix]

But seriously me think it’s carch

[heady thunder]

Its a big charc, they all look almost identical.

[frigid coral]

Mapu?

[bitter oasis]

@white matrix Please do not post any content where animals or people are getting injured.

[sudden wind]

It's Giganotosaurus but it looks like an Acrocanthosaurus

[pearl briar]

ight answer time
Giganotosaurus

[steady citrus]

What’s your favorite dinosaur?

[heady thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-park-jurassic-gif-7496061

[light osprey]

The baby muncher himself.

[heady thunder]

AkshuallY thats not a dinosaur🤓

[light osprey]

Fair enough.

[steady citrus]

🦖🦕

[heady thunder]

Ye Rex is pretty rad.

[night skiff]

I know. The slow mode is so annoying!

[hushed valve]

I was right😎

[night skiff]

Deinocheries (hopefully that’s how you spell it) is my favorite dinosaur

https://tenor.com/view/deinocheirus-prehistoric-planet-pp-deino-duck-gif-25447955

[wary heath]

deinocheirus* its also my favorite

[cloud dagger]

Just something small, like bannykus, parvicursor or natovenator

[night skiff]

I first learned about it in the documentary Amazing Dinoworld and I have been in love ever since

[hallow spear]

POT server moment

[eager skiff]

Deinocheirus and maip macrothorax

[ancient crystal]

T. Rex and the american crow

[slim ridge]

Shunosaurus

[steady citrus]

Awesome

[tender lava]

Yutyrannus

[cinder jewel]

It has been wild to be alive in the timeframe where Deinicheirus went from "big carnivore arms" to "probably just a huge ornithomimisaur" to "ok so it is a huge ornithomimisaur, but it's also sort of a duck and a camel and it's fabulous"

[distant ice]

parasourolophus

[fossil aspen]

Acro

[heady thunder]

The best spino skeletal

[night skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-mind-blown-meme-mind-explosion-mind-explosion-meme-gif-18002878

[steady citrus]

Fantastic!

[frozen basin]

Real

[woeful falcon]

wait really? lmao

when I first saw the art and was scrolling down reading the answers people were giving I was like "what, it's an Acrocanthosaurus just look at it" until I got to yours

[trim crag]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to explain the very real facts about why leopards are stronger than any dinosaur ever

[heady thunder]

Time is relative.

Speaking of felines, is smilodon the biggest ever?

[jagged trellis]

ignoring ligers pretty sure it was a relative of smilo who takes the crown

[heady thunder]

Arent ligers infertile, so they dont count?

[woeful falcon]

They're also just, hybrids.

[jagged trellis]

thought they could do the do but still felines that don't flop over 2 seconds at existing so good enough( or just label it in a diff category)

[slim ridge]

And non-functional outside of zoo-life due to their many health-issues

[heady thunder]

Soo, then smilo is the biggest ever? Or was it those cave lion thingys?

[slim ridge]

European Cave lions weren’t that different from modern lions iirc

[woeful falcon]

Y-yes.

I was just saying that I feel like in questioning of largest felids that would naturally exclude hybrids.

[heady thunder]

Werent those maneless tho? And what about the american lion?

[slim ridge]

O yeah it would, just pointing out that ligers rlly shouldn’t count because they kinda can’t function at all naturally.

[slim ridge]

They were maneless yes, American lions I’m not sure what their estimates are

[jagged trellis]

i mean its still a feline that exists, but anyhow pretty sure it was a relative of smilodon who takes the cake for biggest natural feline

[heady thunder]

I also remember hearing about some tiger variant or subspecies idk really being very large, dont remember the name tho.

[vast narwhal]

Siberian Tigers?

[heady thunder]

No, some extinct variant, idk I cant remember it correctly.

[vast narwhal]

ngandong tigers?

[heady thunder]

I think so lemme check.

[heady thunder]

Yeah that was it, big bois, 350 kg plus maybe

[pearl briar]

heard that sumatran tiger is the smallest tiger while siberian tiger is the largest tiger

[bright veldt]

afaik Ngandong tiger might've been slightly larger than the largest tigers but if so, it wouldn't have been by much

[pearl briar]

ngandong tiger location?

[night skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/saber-tooth-tiger-walking-with-beasts-walking-with-dinosaurs-cat-intimidating-gif-25402524

[wary heath]

what hippos would probably look like if we only knew them from fossils

[stark pasture]

Do you have an image of that?

[tiny holly]

Well the cool thing is that we have modern hippos, so we can use those as a reference point for reconstructing extinct ones. The point of art like that is showing how weird modern animals would look if we treated them the same way we treat a lot of extinct animals, in particular attempting to reconstruct something when we have no good modern analogies to use. Hence the "if we only knew them from fossils"

[stark pasture]

May you send it. If not in this chat then DM plz.

[tiny holly]

He still knows what modern hippos look like though correct?? Even if he wasn't looking at actual pictures of hippos at the time as reference, if you have a vague idea on what a hippo looks like that helps a LOT in knowing how much extra tissue to put on them lmao

Even without looking at a hippo, if you've seen one before you know hippos have huge cheeks and lips so you would likely put those features on an extinct hippo you're reconstructing

[wary heath]

send the picture

[stiff osprey]

I believe it was a manatee, not a hippo. He missed the giant lip covering the front tusks that manatees have, but was otherwise correct

[stiff osprey]

Regardless, future artists who are well versed in animal anatomy would reconstruct modern animals much more closely than some people think

[little mauve]

These images also tend to follow the logic of "if we also had no idea how soft tissue worked, that a hippo was a mammal and not a reptile, etc."

[little mauve]

Agreed, I think this meme is a little counterproductive at this point

[tiny holly]

Yeah, these days we're getting pretty good at it, I think all of this would largely apply to decades past when we still had a lot to learn and were getting plenty wrong

[compact leaf]

a lot of posts like that also ignore the fact that muscle and tissue scarring is a thing

[woeful falcon]

well the thing is, images like the original posted are just making light of the tendency to shrink wrap prehistoric animals by doing the same on extant animals which we know how they actually look

[little mauve]

An issue with that though is that reptiles are much more shrinkwrapped than mammals are, so if the prehistoric animals the meme refers to are dinosaurs it becomes apples & oranges. A croc skull for example:

[woeful falcon]

well that's why it is a meme I don't think it's meant to be taken seriously, and generally artist depictions of dinosaurs that showcase shrinkwrapping aren't to such extremities either and are largely centered around the various openings in the skulls

most notably, the orbit and antorbital fenestra

[little mauve]

True True, my main point being that it's just a completely different approach reconstructing the facial anatomy of a mammal vs a reptile and with these images it seems like clade misidentification was the fictional artists first and biggest mistake

[woeful falcon]

though with every paleo meme there's crap where peeps take it too seriously or meme too hard. when you meme too hard the meme becomes real

[little mauve]

Yeah well put, I'm just memed out on some of these lol

[woeful falcon]

the meme that always grind my gears is the antithesis of this one, where dinosaurs are then overly soft-tissued into obese monstrosities or overly featherly

or in an adjacent manner, like in the case of Tyrannosaurus, the absolute largest is treated as the standard

To reference Dan's recent estimates of the larger giga for example it makes sense because we only have two. But for Tyrannosaurus where we have a good number of specimens that are fairly complete, Sue and Scotty really shouldn't be treated as the standard rex in the sense of mass

[little mauve]

Lmao that's awesome

Should be the Crystal Palace megalosaurus though imo

[light osprey]

The greatest wastebasket taxon 🫡 ✊

[wary heath]

why did they do this

[little mauve]

Buckland described it as 12 meters though iirc

The 1822 description of Megalosaurus

[neat drum]

Return to the OG dino

S. humanum

[little mauve]

Oh no....

[woeful falcon]

I was gonna joke and tell you to say the full name but I don't think you even can here lol

[neat drum]

Its a baller name, people go nuts over it

Its a damn shame it got sacked

[light osprey]

Question to… someone, do we know the ecology / climate of the Ouled Abdoun Basin?

[little mauve]

The book I have doesn't cover Ouled Abdoun specifically but has this to say about Algeria during that time

[light osprey]

So I’m guessing the climate stayed the same into the maastrichtian as well?

[little mauve]

Marine transgressions occurred, so it was repeatedly flooded by the sea. Sea levels were high during the Maastrichtian so I assume it was underwater by then. In terms of temperature and stuff it would have been broadly similar: very very hot

[light osprey]

Well the whole formation couldn’t have been underwater, seeing we have pterosaurs, and I think an abelisaurid, and lambeosaurine iirc.

[little mauve]

Marine sediments can still contain dinosaurs from washed out carcasses. The marine transgressions were just a general trend, there would have been coastlines or islands etc

[light osprey]

So the surrounding area would’ve still been arid floodplains.

[little mauve]

That's probably a safe bet

[rare parrot]

Nigel, Marven!

[pearl briar]

where can i found candeleros?

[mellow gale]

Is the eotrike really that big? That thing is a tank in game

[jagged trellis]

no, ingame its upsized, irl its a bobblehead which gave rise to the false estimates

[near timber]

can anyone tell me which skin this is

[west drum]

WWD sty

[trim crag]

iirc Smilodon populator was the heaviest but there are some estimates for cats that may be larger (meant to reply to a diff message)

iirc Homotherium, Amphimachairodus and Panthera tigris soloensis (Ngandong tiger) have weight estimates that overlap and even exceed some average weight estimates of S. populator. Also to what the other people were saying Siberian tigers did used to be very large but due to human conflict and habitat loss the most up to date estimates for them put their average weight at around 400-420 lbs, thus making Bengal tigers the largest extant tigers. American and Eurasian cave lions were also only about 10-25% larger than African lions so an average male individual of those species likely weighed anywhere from 450-600 lbs

Here's a comparison of femurs of extinct cats, from left to right:

Panthera tigris soloensis 490 mm
Panthera atrox 462 mm
Panthera spelaea 480 mm

[pearl briar]

yellow is eotrike
greenish blue is trike
art credit: @tough parcel

[trim crag]

anime... woman... 🐺😡

[pearl briar]

noo that's @tough parcel oc 😭

[trim crag]

featureless 6 ft tall silhouette that looks like my sleep paralysis demon is better than a 5 foot something anime character because the demon is more relatable (i do not talk to women)

[heady thunder]

So, S.Populator still has the largest max estimates from any cat ever I presume.

[night skiff]

Found this on Devian art and thought it was pretty cool

[heady thunder]

Its pretty cool

[pearl briar]

any idea of why we should "never underestimate hadrosaurs"?

[heady thunder]

Theyre big and lived in herds.

[modest meteor]

Hadrosaurs, at least the ones that people say not to underestimate, were quite large with powerful legs. Not to mention they tended to either be larger or rival their predators in size. I believe we even have fossil evidence of them surviving predation attempts, healing, and living to fight another day

[heady thunder]

Tho I must say that hadros these days are being overestimated a lot, a lot of the community did an 180 on them

[modest meteor]

Oh for sure, they're definitely overestimated a lot as well

This is typical of people who tend to stan a dinosaur though so I can't be surprised

[heady thunder]

If big cats today hunt and kill ungulates which sometimes can be like 5 times the size, Im sure big theropods which were tied in size or slightly smaller or larger then the local hardosaurs did too.

[slim ridge]

Depends on a lot rlly, mammalian predators like Mustelids and felines generally posses traits that allow them to do so which many other animals, and likely theropods don’t have.
Not saying theropods couldn’t do it, but given how they tended to weigh similarly or were heavier than their prey items it likely suggests that they didn’t do how cats do

Like they’re just build different to one another, so comparing theropods to big cats doesn’t rlly work

[tiny holly]

Mammals are super flexible, predators in particular. This agility gives them a huge advantage when taking on larger prey items. They don't need to use brute strength to kill their prey most of the time, they just need to be quick, clever and have the endurance for it. Even hunts which seem like they use mostly strength, eg lions grappling the back of a zebra to bring it down, are really more down to endurance. Huge generalisation here but large theropods seemed to tend more towards the brute strength aspect. Their agility wasn't to be underestimated mind you, but there's only so agile you can get when you weight multiple tonnes, and there's only so much of an advantage that can give you over big prey.

That said I think how they reproduce is something to keep in mind too. Hadrosaurs seemed to gravitate towards a decent amount of babies that grow up as fast as possible. They reach sexual maturity at an age surprisingly comparable to modern day ungulates, indicating there is a need to have a constant supply of new adults: because adults get eaten a lot. Generally speaking I think there's a lot of comparisons to draw between ungulates and hadrosaurs in terms of their role in the ecosystem, and I imagine as prey items they filled a similar role. AKA pretty common prey items that were generally the "safe" option for predators, though can and do fight back sometimes causing injury and fatality to hunters. Maybe some were exceptions but I think a lot of hadrosaurs fit this pretty well

Genuinely its pretty funny, hadrosaurs seemed to reach sexual maturity at around 2-3 years give or take. Funnily enough so do a lot of ungulates :P its a good age for prey items that get eaten a lot

[warm temple]

I still cant get over sauropod diagonal gait.
The elephant gait sauropod are already growing to me.

[heady thunder]

Wasnt it like 5-10 years to become sexually mature for Rexes? I doubt they became fully grown at 20 when they usually only lived till 30.

Idk the actual article, but I might give it a look

[frigid coral]

2004 is a pretty old paper

dw about it, the text was pretty small 👍

weird since afaik all known adult specimens were like 20 years old

[bright veldt]

Yeah no idk where you get tyrannosaurs maturing that fast from. It generally took 20 years for them to properly mature. Sauropods took about the same time. You’d see much faster growth rates in smaller theropods (I believe guanlong matured at around 5 years) while hadrosaurs grew extremely quickly, reaching sexual maturity in about 3 years.

[heady thunder]

That study said that Sue was like 54 years old, so if they managed to live that long, it makes sense that they matured at 20ish.

[bright veldt]

I’m pretty sure Sue was 28 when she died. You don’t really see theropods that old until you get to some carcharodontosaurs (One of the Meraxes specimens I believe was nearly 60)

[frigid coral]

eh that’s a lot bigger of a difference than 15 and 20

54 years old for sue is also a pretty absurd estimate

wdym that’s 27 years vs 18 years using that lifespan

[stiff osprey]

Rex starts to breed around ages 12-14, is fully grown around 20. That's the result of every study on its growth ever

Considering upcoming studies that suggest rex probably laid 25-60 eggs a year, that's 350-960 eggs produced in a lifetime, assuming it dies at age 28

[heady thunder]

When did I say I didnt believe you lol, I said it makes sense.

I thought you said Rexes werent sexually mature before 20, not fully grown. As the studies say, they could reproduce since 12 or 14 depending on other factors. Also, did tyranosaurs always continue to grow like crocs or did they stop at 20? Iirc they always grew

[heady thunder]

@white matrix I did say right here that I agreed and it made sense lel.

[storm heron]

Its strange for me to think of "Jane"-aged individuals breeding and laying eggs.

[tiny holly]

tbf i wouldnt be surprised if its like a lot of animals where your average individual won't actually mate for the first time until they're closer to physical maturity, be it because of the strain on the body or difficulty competing for mates etc. Would be a lot easier to figure out if we know how exactly they reproduced tho

like as an example, if we knew males physically fought each other to compete for females then that'd imply most males won't mate until they're physically mature so they're actually big enough to do that. Buuut we don't really know so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pearl briar]

ghost ping?

[white matrix]

@hybrid trout this one might be good

[hybrid trout]

Sweet nice pic xd

[full socket]

@hybrid trout

[hybrid trout]

Thanks guys

[covert lintel]

iirc the lower life expectancy for earlier humans was less because they rarely reached old age, and more because of a high infant mortality rate pushing the average lifespan wayyy down - it's only very recently that medicine has progressed to the point where most infants can be saved.

[earnest saffron]

Imagine if they changed Oviraptors name to Ovimaia

[compact leaf]

this is not the right place for that

[little mauve]

I like it but it should probably go into the art channel

[night skiff]

This man is my literal childhood! I hope he does another time traveling series. Prehistoric park season 2!

[compact leaf]

another season of prehistoric park would be the godsend we all need right now

[night skiff]

I know! I think he should do one more season before he retires

[heady thunder]

7000 seasons imo

[trim crag]

Yeah pretty much

[heady thunder]

S.fatalis was smaller tho iirc

[bright veldt]

There are some close contenders with Smilodon, mostly P. fossilis I believe, but S. populator’s still the largest solidly verified

[trim crag]

Well with cats it definitely has something to do with brute strength considering their endurance is pretty low

[night skiff]

Yes I would have infinite seasons if I could but to be realistic I think if they were to continue prehistoric park they would only do one more season

[trim crag]

Yeah S. fatalis was only like lion-tiger sized (and S. gracilis only like jaguar sized), also P. fossilis iirc was not much bigger than P. leo

[bright veldt]

S. is about the size of a large male lion or tiger, while S. gracilis is around the size of a large leopard, and is much more built like typical big cats rather than having the sloping back posture Smilodon’s typically known for

[trim crag]

a large leopard is only like 170-250 lbs

[bright veldt]

Yes

[trim crag]

I'm not sure if there's enough accurate evidence for P. fossilis size since lion fanboys love to overexaggerate the sizes of extinct lions, even P. atrox and P. spelaea which were not true lions 😹 I've seen so many people claiming that they averaged 700-900 lbs

[heady thunder]

Im guessing lion fanbois are like the TRex fanbois of the cat world

[bright veldt]

I’m talking about apparent exceptional specimens and thatve been recently recovered from the Middle East, although it’s reportedly questionable if they’re actually P. fossilis and the size is likely exaggerated

[tiny holly]

Partly though im also referring to endurance in an actual fight, like how big cats will try to latch onto the windpipe and keep holding on as long as possible until the animal suffocates. Their strength helps here for sure, but even if they dont have good running stamina theres a degree of endurance required to maintain that

[trim crag]

Yeah, tiger fans are nearly equal but at least tigers are more impressive to back up the claims, some of the stuff lion fans will say has made me have a permanent imprint of my palm in my skull from the facepalming

[heady thunder]

So then lion fans are more like the giga fans while the tiger fans are the trex fans lol

[trim crag]

Well when cats catch their prey they usually sit there for a little while latched onto the throat regaining their energy before wrestling it down again

[bright veldt]

I also think it’s likely that homotherium might’ve been convergent with hyenas in their endurance, given their body plan and being diurnal, which would otherwise put a lot of stress on a large cat hunting in the heat of the day

[chilly knot]

A. horribilis

[covert lintel]

yeah, compared to their reputation, lions are kind of wimps. like, they're still large (for their time) terrestrial pack-hunting predators, so they're not complete pushovers by any means, but they're way overhyped, yknow?

[trim crag]

Yeah I have heard that theory with some Machairodonts being more endurant than other cats

[trim crag]

Yeah they're certainly the apex predators of Africa along with Nile crocs (even though I've had hyena fanboys try saying hyenas are also apexes) but I definitely agree they're way overhyped, like have you seen that video of them catching a buffalo and as they're killing it they start fighting and the buffalo just gets up and walks away

[heady thunder]

For a great picture of lion vs buffalo Relentless enemies is a top tier documentary covering the life of prides specialised in buffalo hunting and herds of buffalo who have adapted more with the lion threat

[bright veldt]

Hyenas very much are apex predators. Their conflict with lions is likely what drove lions to become social in the first place. Also that video is often taken out of context. The background is that the pride was hunting on the border of another pride’s territory. The chase went into the rival pride’s territory and they opportunistically took the buffalo mid-hunt. The males didn’t care. Females are females and food is food. But the lionesses very much cared and when one of the lionesses from the other pride caught up and tried to share she got jumped. Then chaos.

[heady thunder]

It also shows some damn big lions, those lionesses were shredded

[white matrix]

And liger fans are indom fans

[trim crag]

While I certainly agree that hyenas did push lions to become social it definitely wasn't the sole reason, nor do I believe they are apex predators in competition with lions, they definitely are high up there but rank slightly below lions and crocs due to how easily they can be intimidated by a single lion let alone a whole pride. I would say "what about American lions or Smilodon" but those were in equal competition with grey and dire wolves, the reason other large cats like tigers, pumas or leopards arent social is because they typically stick to more forested environments (although leopards can be found in grasslands they arent in the very open ones that have 1 tree every 200 miles 😹)

[heady thunder]

The other cats are also becoming more social with time tho, like cheetah coalitions becoming so wide spread

[trim crag]

I can't say for certain but it might be likely that cheetah coalitions have existed for longer than we think, and tigers do certainly have a minor social aspect to them but it's not as prominent as lions or cheetahs

[bright veldt]

It’s the males that hyenas get easily intimidated by. Lionesses are very much under threat of hyenas and it’s much more of a back and forth without male support.

[heady thunder]

Hyenas still usually dont mess with lionesses unless they have double the numbers or more.

[bright veldt]

That doesn’t matter much when hyenas almost always have the numbers advantage anyway.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJtDEUYIcyXjXuOTYCn-CaL-OvxfTRs_-

[frigid coral]

what is that thumbnail

[woeful falcon]

That thumbnail is single handedly discrediting the video for me

[bright veldt]

It’s a monster hunter related video, but it uses real world ecology. I’ve learned a lot from these. I clipped it cause mobile for me doesn’t have linking a specific point. Regardless it also goes on to explain that male lions are rarely contested by spotted hyenas and are often their biggest cause of death. As stated though, with lionesses it’s a much more even playing field.

[stray wren]

The information provided in the video is well researched and cited, UHC takes his stuff seriously

[trim crag]

Yeah but a lion can cripple a hyena for life in a matter of seconds, plus lions often steal kills from hyenas, and there is plenty of evidence to show that lionesses are not easily intimidated by hyenas, there's this 1 video of a lioness getting mobbed by dozens of hyenas and then a few other lionesses show off and this huge swarm just runs away, lionesses certainly can be intimidated but the males will face whole clans even when alone

[woeful falcon]

It sounds almost like.....its situational and a case by case basis

[heady thunder]

In the end is a confidence game, ive seen lionesses who give to like 3 hyenas and and others who havent given up even with 6+

[trim crag]

Sorta but not entirely

[woeful falcon]

No no it sounds like it is. It sounds like when the situation is different, the outcome might be different

Who woulda thought

[tiny holly]

Anecdotal of course but honestly ive seen more clips of lions being intimidated by hyenas than vice versa. Hyenas are ballsy and play the numbers game to a pretty significant degree. Id say lions may tend to rank higher overall but not by much, and it really depends hugely on the size of the pride vs the clan

[bright veldt]

I’m sorry but this really sounds like personal opinion rather than what actually happens.

[stray wren]

hot take labeling things as "apex" this and that has skewed peoples view of ecosystems into onesided black and white conflicts and that's kinda unfortunate

[trim crag]

Yeah I've seen 5 lionesses be intimidated by 3 hyenas but it was very likely due to the fact they were eating a buffalo corpse stuck in mud and were already on edge from the mud. Also I would like to note that lionesses and male lions hold slightly different ecological niches, for example lionesses are more social, are more easily intimidated by rival predators and typically hunt smaller prey whereas male lions are less social, are very rarely intimidated by rival predators (with the exception of large crocodiles or large hyena clans) and typically target larger slower prey

[woeful falcon]

Oh man panthera its almost like you described it as a case by case basis

[bright veldt]

Of course there is some difference in niches, otherwise the 2 species wouldn’t still be competing for millions of years, but both are very much the dominant predators in their ecosystems.

[trim crag]

Well sorry if I'm coming off like that but due to the interactions I've seen I really don't believe hyenas can be considered "equal" with lions

[bright veldt]

I really feel like hyenas aren’t given enough credit here due to singly being weaker than a lioness, but in reality that really doesn’t matter in the ecosystem’s context.

[trim crag]

Hyenas get pushed off their kills by lions quite often and have individuals of any age group killed by lions much more often than hyenas kill lions

[bright veldt]

Also consider that hyenas and lionesses rarely actually kill each other in such conflicts, and the deaths you see are cubs and vulnerable adults. It’s only adult male lions that kill adult hyenas with any form of regularity.

[trim crag]

I totally agree with you, hyenas certainly are impressive in their own right and definitely don't get enough credit for their place in the ecosystem. It is often believed that Spotted hyenas are scavengers that bully lions off their kills or wait for them to finish feeding when it is in fact quite the opposite

[tiny holly]

Again though, its hugely case by case. Ive personally seen more videos of hyenas pushing lions off kills. It really depends on multiple factors here. As individuals lions are typically more powerful but from the perspective of their role in the ecosystem at large their place in the overall food web is largely comporable

[trim crag]

Yeah, I guess to revise my statement I would say the male lions are the "apexes" due to their slightly differing ecological niche from lionesses

But I do (somewhat) agree that it is based on case to case, there are no rules in nature except inevitable death

[tiny holly]

I would be pretty curious if theres a study on which species pushes the other off of kills more often. And i wonder how thatd differ from place to place too

[trim crag]

From what I understand lions typically push hyenas off of kills quite often, in some areas of Africa Spotted hyenas are known to kill 80-95% of their prey

[heady thunder]

Probably varies from place to place, lions which deal more often with hyenas are way more confident then lions who dont.

[trim crag]

Brown and Striped hyenas definitely fit the "scavenger" stereotype better than Spotted hyenas but by no means does that make them incapable hunters that rely on scavenging either, there is plenty of evidence to suggest these 2 species hunt their own prey as well

also I would like to note that African leopards aren't entirely pushovers when it comes to hyenas either, there have been a few individuals known as hyena killers that have actively killed lone hyenas (the only one I can remember in detail was unfortunately killed by a large male Nile crocodile somewhere in the Tsavo region I believe). But of course leopards are without a doubt ranked lower in the food web than spotted hyenas

[bright veldt]

The term is facultative predators, which are basically predators that have specialized towards scavenging without being completely reliant on it either. Brown Hyenas and Wolverines both fit this category.

[trim crag]

Yeah definitely, I would say wolverines fit that term much more than brown hyenas though since wolverines are more omnivorous

also aardwolves are just silly little dudes

look at those deadly sharp teeth perfect for killing termites

[trail jewel]

Anybody here knowledgeable on Paleocene shark species? I recently found this tooth at the Point A Dam in Andalusia, Alabama. Can’t find anything matching it online.

[bright veldt]

Looks to me like scaphanorhynchus?

[compact leaf]

it could be a lot of things tbh, it's almost easier to rule out what it doesn't look like

it looks like it could be a tiger or hammerhead of some kind but like I said there's a couple things it could be

[trail jewel]

Very possible, as I found a massive Scapanorhynchus from the same trip.

But idk, the original looks a bit too wide to be that. Not to mention it’s quite a concave shape, having a considerable curve shape to it that can’t really be seen in the photo. Idk if that’s just pathology or the way they’re usually found.

[compact leaf]

there's a few species that have an extreme curve like that so it's probably just the way the tooth is

[trail jewel]

Hmmmm ok. I’ll keep doing some online searches. Even without an ID, I’m beyond happy with it. That color is wild

Just came to the realization too. That larger tooth is probably some sort of sand tiger rather than Scapanorhynchus. I was under the impression Scap’s had cusps, but I guess not. New to this stuff too so I’m gonna be revising a lot of the stuff I got lol

[steady rock]

i need a list of prehestoric island creatures

[slim ridge]

nah, trust me, even if you dont care about monster hunter its worth watching, man dives a lot into modern behaviors and ecology.

[white matrix]

Hatz

[steady rock]

i said list, not just one formation

[white matrix]

I didn’t say the hateg basin I said hatze.

[ripe ruin]

Still not a list

[steady rock]

i found something for my research

i only have 3, well 2 + europasaurus, hateg and phillipines island fauana

[ripe ruin]

Tho
Paleoloxodon falconeri and cygnus falconeri
Of Sicily-malta (they were the same island at the time) are relevant

Truly the elephant genus of all time

[steady rock]

is ampleosaurus from a island?

[bright veldt]

Europe at the time was an archipelago (in fact for the majority of the Mesozoic it was) although I’d be hard pressed for it to be considered small enough to cause islandic pressures with ampelo’s large size

[compact leaf]

yeah late cretaceous europe probably had a mainland of sorts but we don’t really have deposits from it so far

[steady rock]

didnt it live with Rhabdodon priscus? i thought that was found on hateg

[bright veldt]

Rhabdodon isn’t just hateg. It’s found in other parts of Europe as well.

[paper geyser]

Shark

[night skiff]

https://maxs-blogo-saurus.com/2022/09/25/a-complete-guide-to-the-prehistoric-life-of-madagascars-maevarano-formation/ Madagascar is an island

[steady rock]

ty, is there any good size charts of it? because this is the only one i could find

[white matrix]

Anyone here ever heard a gator(irl) sound like an actual dinosaur

[bright veldt]

There is no exact scaling of ampelosaurus because all of its remains are in a very messy bonebed, which makes it hard to determine the size of any specific individual. 15 meters and 15 ton is the spitball I’ve seen float around the most

[steady rock]

any dicreosaurids that lived in a island/island chain or archipeligo?

[night skiff]

Let me check

[bright veldt]

Just checked the dicraeosaur thing. Nah.

[night skiff]

I can’t find anything but I found this size chart of extinct and non extinct megafauna if anyone is interested.

[night skiff]

Where did you find that chart?

[steady rock]

devianart

[night skiff]

Ok what makes you need lists of island creatures are you working on something?

[steady rock]

yes, well more creatures that could fit in a island chain, so like, not large ones from all around prehestoric times

[night skiff]

Found cool chart of permian creatures. Doesn’t give the size but still worth looking at.

[night skiff]

Ok cool

Here is a Cambrian chart

[novel atlas]

https://twitter.com/JuliotheArtist/status/1652680029346713604?s=20

Julio the Artist 🦕🌿 (@JuliotheArtist)

Perry the Whatter

Likes

1780

Retweets

287

Twitter · Apr 30, 2023, 2:23 PM

[rose gate]

North and South top predator

[wary heath]

estemmenoosuchus looking shrink wrapped as usual

[covert lintel]

wdym

[wary heath]

its face has too many weird bony protrusions

[covert lintel]

thats normal

[wary heath]

oh okay, whats the most recent reconstruction of desmostylus

[elfin pulsar]

The little one on the right is so cute

[zealous ravine]

As a matter of fact, despite being an island now, from what I know Madagascar was not isolated in the Cretaceous, I believe, could be wrong tho, you should probably google it yourself

[steady rock]

What

[zealous ravine]

An actual island tho you could look at would def be hateg island, and any English dinosaur for obvious reasons lol, a good chunk of Europe was just a bunch of islands during the Cretaceous

[tough parcel]

It was an island then too

From here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Late-Cretaceous-Paleogeographic-Map-showing-known-fossil-localities-clustered-by-state_fig4_355175097

[zealous ravine]

Ok so according to google I’m wrong lol, by the late Cretaceous it was an island

[zealous ravine]

Yeah figured it out mb

[stoic tinsel]

Once an island always an island

[misty oracle]

@fossil hazel

[night skiff]

Yeah that thing is weird looking

[lone wave]

[somber tartan]

How does one explain to a non intellectual that birds are literally dinosaurs but lizards snakes turtles and crocodilians aren’t

[visual basin]

show evolution graph

[west osprey]

favorite dino?

[somber tartan]

Won’t work, this guy is very very stubborn and insists that birds aren’t dinosaurs but lizards snakes turtles and crocodiles are. The argument is getting very tiring

[visual basin]

don't argue with idiots they'll always win you're just losing your time

[heady thunder]

Tell him that birds are reptiles lol, that might be fun

[somber tartan]

Now he’s saying all amphibians are descended from dinosaurs 💀💀💀💀💀

[tough parcel]

Honestly, he's probably just yanking your chain

[west osprey]

he was looking at the meteor and just thinking, "idk should i get out the way??"

[heady thunder]

Yeah gotta agree with Gualicho there, hes either extremely ignorant, or he has caught you hook, line and sinker.

[west osprey]

he shruggin :)))

[somber tartan]

“Ugh! This is exactly what I DONT need on a Monday! I JUST had my feathers preened!”

[west osprey]

LMAOOOOO Trueeee

[light osprey]

If you want you can compare the osteological differences between them. Hard to argue with bones.

[somber tartan]

Dude already blocked me 💀

[vast narwhal]

Ur both wrong clearly dinosaurs are actually aliens that hanged around for a couple million Years then glassed the planet 66 myo🙄🙄

[somber tartan]

I’m…going to find your house

[woven vortex]

Bro is dumb for thinking crocodiles are dinosaurs

[cinder jewel]

Out of what's left alive on earth, he's as close as he can be without actually naming a dinosaur

[glad carbon]

Lol, u gotta admit when you only look at crocodiles surface level you can see origin of the confusion. Only actual research would inform you otherwise.

When you see stuff like this in the media all the time you’d think they’d be at least distant cousins or somethin. 😂

[tough parcel]

They are distant cousins tho, they're both archosaurs 💀

[west drum]

They both have scales!!11 clearly they’re the same animal!!!

[glad carbon]

In the context of the argument I doubt that’s the point they were trying to make lmao

[novel atlas]

Is that the Mesozoica T.rex? Ugh. Gross.

[ancient crystal]

Is Mesozoica still a thing?

[heady thunder]

That Rex looks meaaan.

[ancient crystal]

It looks like they've done the bare mimimum to avoid getting copywrite striked by Universal

[tough parcel]

No, it's been dead for years lmao

[ancient crystal]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Was surprised to see anyone mention or recognize the game, forgot it even existed

[novel atlas]

Yeah, I remember it insulted the Isle when Deathly was still with that dev team, then it died a few months later.

[heady thunder]

A weird move.

[night skiff]

Wow that guy sounds very annoying. What an idiot. He must be like four or something to believe things like that.

[somber tartan]

He was VERY annoying, luckily he blocked be cause he refused to accept the hard proven facts

[night skiff]

He blocked because he couldn’t find a way to prove that amphibians are dinosaurs 😂😂😂😂

[somber tartan]

😂😂😂😂

[lyric quail]

K

[ocean drum]

😂😂😂😂

[deft sigil]

A reminder to please view pinned messages for appropriate paleo-chat topics. We recommend all off-topic conversations for paleo-chat be directed to DM's, the appropriate channel or another server entirely. This channel is for educational purposes; for the discussion of past and present paleontological discoveries, scientific news, and depictions of prehistoric creatures in media in relation to paleontology.

Also, please remain polite and respectful towards each other. Refer to our #rules

[clever sable]

Birds are dinosaurs but crocodilians, turtles snakes and lizards are not, crocodilians are however archosaurs and are much more closely related to dinosaurs than turtles and snakes but birds are actual dinosaurs not just relatives of dinosaurs like crocodilians

[torn sluice]

Whats a good site for accurate dino stuff

[ancient crystal]

Does anyone have a comparison between megalanias irl and in game size?

[stiff osprey]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/791492686627471360/1031007833082318908/Sauropoda.png

IRL

[ancient crystal]

Thanks someone is claiming meg is heavily undersized in game, which I'm fairly certain is false

[stray wren]

Eh the scale is like, super off in game anyway

[heady thunder]

Doesnt look like its the case for meg tbh

[torn sluice]

So I'm seeing that there was a species of rhamphorynchus that is like as tall as a human. Is that true?

[elfin pulsar]

Yeah definitely not

[stiff osprey]

No. The biggest Rhamph is like knee height

It's about as long as a human is tall, maybe that is what you meant

[torn sluice]

Nah I saw some sort of depiction that had it sitting like a thalassadromeus in a sense and it was about as tall as a person maybe upper chest/neck height

[stiff osprey]

Rhamph with that height would have a wingspan as big as Quetz's, this one is already 14 feet across

[torn sluice]

Oh does the Ramph have an abnormally large wingspan?

[stiff osprey]

It has both long wings and short legs compared to later pterosaurs, so that ends up with the one above having the same wingspan as Thalassodromeus, while being like half the height

[torn sluice]

Honestly that's quite cool. I'm guessing that means they have capabilities of very long flight times?

Due to the large wing surface area they'd probably be able to fly pretty much effortlessly

[pure grove]

Is the red all that’s found?

[stiff osprey]

Of these specimens yes, we have a much more complete skeleton but it's still under wraps in the Queensland museum

[bright veldt]

Wait since when did Rhamph get that big?

[pure grove]

Then how do we know

[stiff osprey]

the base skeletal is based on said more complete skeleton

[torn sluice]

They were talking about a size chart I found. I found some website that claimed the largest species of rhamph could be as tall as a human

[neat drum]

And a lot of that is composites too

Megalania is surprisingly fragmentary, but because we have living relatives its p easy to restore how it looks

[bright veldt]

No I'm talking about the provided skeletal with a nearly 5 meter wingspan. That's new to me.

[stiff osprey]

It's based on some very large cervical vertebrae, I don't have the paper on me but it explains where they're from and why they belong to a rhamphorhynchid, possibly Rhamphorhynchus

[sudden wind]

Maevarano Formation fauna, featuring skeletals by Justin (Kelyophis), Scott Hartman (Araripesuchus, Vintana, Adalatherium, Miadanasuchus, Vorona, Mahajangasuchus, Masiakasaurus, Simosuchus, Rahonavis, Falcatakely, Majungasaurus, Rapetosaurus) and brick (Vahiny)

[steady rock]

thank you

[sudden wind]

done by @stiff osprey iirc

[wary heath]

would it be possible to train a dinosaur to do something like you would train a bird of prey

[pearl briar]

basilo's most up-to-date length & weight?

[stiff osprey]

Theoretically yes, but it would require you to survive every time said dinosaur lashes out at you/misses the target during training

a falcon landing on somebody without the proper equipment hurts, a dromaeosaur jumping on you would hurt a lot more

[stoic tinsel]

simple fix just get a dromaeosaur that cant jump

[covert lintel]

generally speaking there are vanishingly few animals that're full-on impossible to train, so i think non-avian dinosaurs could've been trained. whether or not it'd be a good idea (and which ones could be trained for something imitating falconry), though? that's a whole 'nother can of worms

[steady rock]

any prehestoric island dwelling rhinos beside the one in the Philippines
or any island dwelling rhinos actually

[vast narwhal]

There's a island dwelling rhino still around today it lives in Indonesia

[steady rock]

javan rhino?

[vast narwhal]

Sumartan rhino but it was declared extinct in 2015 but idk if that's factual or not

[woeful falcon]

googles

Not extinct but on the brink it would seem. Could count the number

[trim crag]

yeah the Javan rhino is extinct

[twin tapir]

Javan rhino is still around, just critically endangered

[scenic drum]

Yeh I have one as a pet my uncle dejesus captured one for me and brought it to San Juan

I might just kill it tbh it eats to much.

[compact leaf]

it is still around but I think it's functionally extinct

[dusky galleon]

The Javen Rhino has a population of around 72 or so individuals living in Ujon Klong National Park in Indonesia. There were a few in Vietnam but the Vietnam War killed a lot of them and the last one there was shot a few years ago.

They were hunted for entertainment by colonists in the late 1800s, early 1900s, and by soldiers on both sides in the 70s. (The Vietnam War)

Sumatran Rhinos are also critically endangered but a few have been bred I think and they are a tiny bit more stable population wise but still critically endangered.

[meager sedge]

@scenic drum Please stay on topic in this channel, thankyou! Occasional jokes are fine, but please avoid continuous diversion of the topic.

[dusky galleon]

Here is a photo of a Javen Rhino. (I didn't take it obviously.)

[steady rock]

its bratz, not barbie, try again

anyways, what island did this live on? same as javan rhino?

[dusky galleon]

Borneo

[steady rock]

oh, boreno elephants are still alive

[dusky galleon]

I've already posted this on this channel a few days ago but I'm gonna post it again. It's a big chonky aligator.

[steady rock]

someone explain what this means

[covert lintel]

different theories on how they lived... maybe...? i think?
really weird reconstructions for both though, imo. paleoparadoxia doing somethin weird with its hind legs and ambulocetus looking all sad and skinny

[steady rock]

well, which ones are more accurate to how they lived? obligate aquatic or semi aquatic

obligate aquatic means their were restricted to the water, but are seals obligate aquatics if they can traverse on land with minor issues?

[dusky galleon]

I think maybe a more in between would be likely?

[stable sky]

i feel like pachy charge should do either more knockback or damage

[tiny holly]

god im so tired of ambulocetus in particular always getting shrinkwrapped. it's so weird, why does it happen lmao. Usually mammals don't get this treatment because we know what mammals look like and know what sort of soft tissue to expect. But for some reason SO many depictions of ambulocetus are really reptilian. I love WWB but part of we wonders if it's to blame because it's depiction was pretty awkward

I can't speak for palaeoparadoxia but at least in ambulocetus' case there currently isn't a solid conclusion on whether it could venture onto land and how much it could afaik. The study that proposed it couldn't go on land cautioned that they lacked material that could actually make their point conclusive.

[ancient crystal]

If you would excuse me I'm going to go bleach my eyes. Because that thing is just pure Nightmare

[tiny holly]

Their physical puppet was a lot better, the cgi from the show is overall quite dated. Though even the puppet still has this weird reptilian vibe

shoutout to julio lacerda's ambulo actually looking like a mammal 🙏

[trim crag]

wait so then which of them is extinct

sumatran or javan or is it another one?

[covert lintel]

i swear i saw this one earlier at SOME point today, and i was blown away by how good it looked in comparison to most of the other ambulocetus recons i've looked at. it's still an extremely weird animal, but it actually looks like a mammal that existed, rather than some kind of furry lizard or very late-surviving stem-mammal.

[trim crag]

Given our modern view of ungulates it's always surprising to see these weird carnivorous ones lol

[woeful falcon]

Tryna find this out myself. Just skimming the internet suggests sumatran, but not as a whole, rather a couple of its subspecies may be extinct. Course, sumatran rhinos as a whole are also on the brink.

[trim crag]

Yeah as are javan

[woeful falcon]

Shame. Could count the total of them both without even thinking, a freightening thing to be happening to a lovely animal.

[bright veldt]

Sumatran rhinos are the most threatened of all rhinos. Sumatran and javan rhinos are very similar in number (under 100 individuals), but the conservation of Javan rhinos is much better enforced and are much better protected in their limited range. Sumatran rhinos meanwhile have declined by 13% every year since 2015.

[wary heath]

they were semi aquatic animals

[bright veldt]

obligate aquatic means completely aquatic

[wary heath]

whats the most accurate model of desmostylus we have today

[trim crag]

Such an important one no less, every animal serves a purpose but megafauna typically are "more" important if they're naturalized into an ecosystem

[elfin pulsar]

Hey does anyone know what kind of herbivores allosaurus lived with

Sauropods, ceratopsians, etc
As well as any pterosaurs

If you can please ping me when you respond, thanks

[sacred mason]

Stegosaurus, diplodocus, camarasaurus, apatosaurus,camptosaurus and im pretty sure dryosaurus

For pterosaurs I'm pretty sure pterodactylus was found in the same formation as allo

@elfin pulsar

[elfin pulsar]

Ty ty appreciate it

If anyone has more feel free to ping again

[glad carbon]

So cute

[tiny holly]

Lots of sauropods. So many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dinosaurs_of_the_Morrison_Formation

No ceratopsids because they didn't really exist yet. For ornithopods there was dryosaurus, camptosaurus, nanosaurus and uteodon. For thyreophorans there was the ankylosaurs gargoyleosaurus and mymoorapelta and the stegosaurs stegosaurus and "Alcovasaurus" (might be synonymous with miragaia). There's also Hesperosaurus from the morrison but i recall it being a bit older so im not sure off the top of my head if it overlapped in time with allosaurus. There was also the heterodontosaurid fruitadens. All the sauropods would take forever to list so I just suggest checking that link.

As for pterosaurs the only conclusive ones are harpactognathus, kepodactylus and mesadactylus. There are other dubious pterosaurs from assorted fragments

Worth noting that I don't know with certainty that everything listed lived in the exact same time and place as allosaurus specifically enough for them to have met, but its a good starting point and at the very least you can generally speculate that they did, or had the potential to. Morrison covers a range of different biomes and not all animals listed would have been ubiquitous in them

[pearl briar]

i found a worthy opponent
they're battle will be legendary

[dusky galleon]

This might be a bad question but why aren't there efforts to clone the Javen or Sumatran Rhinos? I know that clones released back into the environments could decrease the gene pool but it would increase the species numbers?

[glad carbon]

At that point there’s no point

[tiny holly]

Cloning just isn't good enough yet. We have cloned animals before but we're not good enough at it yet to actually guarantee the viability and health of the animal which is really important. There's sperm and eggs saved from a lot of critically endangered/recently extinct animals that could get used for cloning in the future, but it's being used very sparingly at this point because its a finite resource that you dont want to waste on a baby that'll die in 2 hours

[pearl briar]

is that like saying that we can't clone non avian dinos or what?

[tiny holly]

We don't have the material to clone them from, no. DNA degrades over time, and they're so long gone that there just simply isn't any DNA we could use. The only animals actually on the table for cloning have to be anything that's quite recently extinct, basically as old as you can get from what we can tell so far is the mammoth and even then their DNA samples aren't perfect

[covert lintel]

i'd wager it's also partially due to the fact that cloning is usually done for endangered animals when individuals not closely related to the current population have clonable material preserved - the przewalski's horse wasn't one of the ones the current population is descended from because he was part domestic horse and so wasn't considered for breeding programs during his time, the black-footed ferret didn't have any surviving descendants, etc. - so cloning would've introduced valuable new genetics. cloning animals that're still alive and contributing to the population's genes, however, doesn't add any genetic diversity, just another individual.

[pearl briar]

so jurassic park/world can't be happened in real life? (atleast i can still see dinos as birds or smth)

[tiny holly]

The only way non-avian dinosaurs could be "brought back" is if we somehow made their DNA from scratch and recreated the exact same DNA they had (which uh, not happeneing. Not in our futures at least) or through selective breeding of related extant animals to select for traits similar to that seen in non-avian dinosaurs. Which is actually something we've done to a small extent, they've just been terminated before hatching because of concerns over ethics.

[glad carbon]

Awhh!!! Darn

[pearl briar]

i see

[tiny holly]

Yeah to a certain extent I only think cloning for a lot of these cases will be worthwhile if we get good enough at tinkering with genetics to artificially create genetic diversity. Species can and do come back and thrive despite having once been on the brink but it makes their future a lot more uncertain as they just don't have what they need to adapt anymore.

[glad carbon]

Is it possible that the government does stuff like this without telling ppl.
Like cloning sht

[covert lintel]

??????
governments are really not that good at keeping things secret

[tiny holly]

Why would they do that? Genuinly, think what they would actually realistically have to gain from keeping something like that a secret. "Oh yeah actually we can return extinct animals back to life but shhhhhh"

[glad carbon]

Idk there’s gotta be some nerd wanting to do that somewhere in the government

[covert lintel]

doesn't mean they can, or would have any reason to keep it under wraps, or would be able to keep it under wraps given there'd need to be a whole team of scientists working on that

[pearl briar]

likely not
like ppl said non avian dino's dna are....
what can i say...
Dead?

[tiny holly]

Again: why. What benefit is there to that. It just doesn't make sense beyond going "well just because"

[glad carbon]

I mean think of the atomic bomb, half the ppl working on it didnt even know what they were making till it was done. Tho u are right there really is no reason

[stiff osprey]

cloning extinct animals costs more money than it gives back, so the government won't do it, secretly or otherwise

that's why everyone trying to clone things are private organizations atm

[pearl briar]

(likely) another reason why jp/jw are impossible 👆

[glad carbon]

Didn’t even know this happened

[tiny holly]

And here's the thing to keep in mind: Scientists can and do sometimes keep things largely to themselves and avoid it being public knowledge. But that's because:

1. The general public simply wouldn't understand it. There's no point making it public knowledge because the average person doesn't care and wouldn't get it. People interested can seek out the information themselves or
2. It would be dangerous for the public to know. Chemists know how to make drugs and bombs, but they don't go telling everyone because you don't really want people knowing that. Certain dangerous things can be made at home in your kitchen if you know what to get.

Knowing how to clone animals and that it is possible even with potentially long-extinct animals has no bearing on the day to day lives of the public, and presents no danger, plus its not like you could do it in your backyard.

[glad carbon]

I see. So no Jurassic park? 😔

[covert lintel]

jurassic park isn't happening one way or another on account of "DNA that old is literally not usable"

[tiny holly]

Nope. Who knows, maybe it'll be possible in the far future if humans develop beyond our understanding. But with our current technology I don't see it happening in our lifetimes

[glad carbon]

Ik this is a stupid question but I gotta ask, what makes something a dinosaur? Ik I saw something about certain sea animals not being dinosaurs but they looked like dinosaurs to me

[tiny holly]

One of the simplest ways to define it is just how they're related to other animals. Dinosaurs all belong to a group called archosaurs. This group also contains crocodilians and pterosaurs, and by extension of dinosaurs being there also contains birds.

Marine reptiles like mosasaurs, plesiosaurs and ichthyosaurs are entirely unrelated. While they are all reptiles, they're not archosaurs. Mosasaurids for example are squamates (group that contains snakes and lizards) and likely descend from monitor lizards specifically

[pearl briar]

a million years dna are (likely) dead

[covert lintel]

being in the clade dinosauria, which is defined as the most recent common ancestor of triceratops and modern birds, as well as all the descendants of that ancestor
(serpentarius' explanation is uh. probably more intuitive though )

[glad carbon]

Ahh

[pearl briar]

pterosaur is in archosaur group?
why we ain't called them dinos?
is this the same case as crocs that in archosaur but are cousin to dinos?
while birbs are dinos itself?

[covert lintel]

yeah, similar case. pterosaurs are much closer to dinosaurs than crocodilians are, but they're still not quite dinosaurs.

[glad carbon]

What’s a clade?

[tiny holly]

So Pterosaurs are archosaurs but not dinosaurs for the exact same reason that monkeys are primates, but aren't apes. Archosaur is the larger group that contains various related groups (applies to crocodilians too)

[covert lintel]

i was gonna quote wikipedia at you (i'm tired. my brain aint workin well enough to make the words myself) but it turns out googling it provides a slightly more digestible definition
anyway it's. uh . "a group of organisms believed to comprise all the evolutionary descendants of a common ancestor"

[bright veldt]

So yknow how things are typical divided into families, orders, class, phylum, etc? Clade is basically just the non-description version for when you wanna talk about any taxonomic group of critters.

[glad carbon]

Ahhhh

[tiny holly]

its a convenient term to you for any group of animals that's related. a genus of ducks is a clade, a family of lizards is a clade, all sharks make a clade. good word to just use for "all of these are related"

[pearl briar]

i have a kem-kem group question:
does spino & carcha peacefully coexist with each other or dislikes/hate (or likely fight) each other?

[covert lintel]

(unless the taxonomists decided they wanted to make a paraphyletic taxa)

[glad carbon]

Big words 😵‍💫

[heady thunder]

We probably dont have enough material to conclude, but they probably avoided eachother.

[tiny holly]

We can't go back in time and tell so we don't really know. Chances are though there was some significant niche partitioning going on and they largely avoided each other. Carchara was a terrestrial predator, spinosaurus a semi-aquatic piscivore. They likely didn't need or want to bump into each other often

[chilly knot]

There is no way to know that currently

[covert lintel]

yeah, see, that's why i decided not to go with wikipedia - the first sentence is all Monophyletic and Phylogenetics and Lineal Descendants, which is cool when you already know the terms but confusing when ya don't

[slim ridge]

Welcome to Phylogeny, it can be rather rough to filter through. Especially when invertebrates are concerned. (Trust me i would know)

[glad carbon]

Lol @covert lintel always comin in with the big words n’ I be googling mid convo every time 😂

[pearl briar]

...
lovers?/j

[chilly knot]

Believing spino is carchar prey item=based tho

[glad carbon]

Would spinos rly be that good at fighting? They don’t look super balanced and if they get ripped over it looks like they’d have trouble getting up,not like they can just roll over

[tiny holly]

I mean paleontologists can't even agree how it moved on land, though at the very least most agree it was fairly awkward and not well built for it. I imagine it would fair pretty badly against a healthy carchar most of the time. But at the same time, drop a carchar into a river and I'd wager the tables would turn, so its simply a matter of being in their element

[glad carbon]

Tru tru

[pearl briar]

spino's claw: hello🤨

[frigid coral]

not for fighting apex predators but it wouldn’t just fall over and die

[pearl briar]

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT TO MY PRECIOUS CONTROVERSIAL BOY 😡😡😡

[glad carbon]

I’d hope not. They could probably kick and stuff LOL

[bright veldt]

Given spino’s bigger that doesn’t bode well for it being outright prey.

[pearl briar]

sooo....
spino as carcha's punching bag?

[bright veldt]

It’s still huge with teeth and claws. I’m still betting on the carchar winning the fight but why try? It feels like it’s asking to get a chunk ripped out of it in the struggle.

[glad carbon]

Tbh claws specialized for catching fish wouldn’t fare too great against any other dino that isn’t directly infront procent under them, as it’s out of their range. Idk if they had a shoulder socket or not but they look like they can only move in and out.

[tiny holly]

yeah, I'd put my money on carchar surviving more often in a to-the-death fight between the two but that doesn't mean its getting away without injury. Predators really really do not like getting hurt because if you can't hunt you're dead, so they tend to avoid hunting something that can hurt them pretty badly

[pearl briar]

so...
say no to spino as carcha's bff?

[frigid coral]

mind you wounds can get infected and do major inconveniences to an animals life. from a logical standpoint cachar would win, from a realistic standpoint both animals would have nasty injuries

[stiff osprey]

i would guess their relationship to be much like tigers/lions and crocodiles, where either will attack the other if it's in a vulnerable position but avoid healthy adults (in hindsight this is kind of obvious, it's how most predators deal with most other things)

[glad carbon]

So erm… I can kill babies as a sarco and technically not be a douche cause it’s realism

[tiny holly]

babies are the easy pantry snack of nature that you grab when you're pekish. It's always realism to eat babies

[stiff osprey]

top 10 sentences ever said

[tiny holly]

It is quite amusing to me that some people complained too many babies died in prehistoric planet and it was kind of depressing. Welcome to nature unfortunately

[glad carbon]

Im surprised more babies didn’t die to be completely honest

[tough parcel]

Too many babies died, not enough multi-ton megafaunal battles

[tiny holly]

that olorotitan hatchling infested with mosquitoes shouldnt have made it smh, ruining my immersion /j

[stiff osprey]

the baby mortality was fine, but i was indeed disappointed with how few adults died. you had the one pterosaur eaten by the snowleoparaptors, a Corythoraptor, and a Pachyrhinosaurus where we didn't see any of the kill actually happen

[glad carbon]

Yo that made me itch just looking at it I had to close my eyes bruh

[covert lintel]

don't forget the completely off-screen triceratops

[tiny holly]

I was kind of surprised that we didn't see many successful hunts. I am really glad they showed unsuccessful hunts because that's common and how the majority of hunts go. But php is pretty comparable to documentaries like planet earth and those do tend to show a decent number of hunts simply because its interesting for the viewers.

[fallow plank]

With them lil nugget legs, ofc they'd be awkward on land,they ain't sturdy

[pearl briar]

you mention trike?

[glad carbon]

LMFAO NUGGET LEGS

[covert lintel]

most animals that exhibit any parental care don't eat their own offspring unless something is Very Wrong (i.e. severe stress or malnutrition)

[coral dragon]

i love the horn and frill individual variation

[fallow plank]

Take example from the komodo,if they see their hatchling hatch they'd eat em,why? Well who asked them to put scavenger metabolism on

[chilly knot]

Believing it's a jaguar-yacare relationship

[fallow plank]

Soon those mfs are gonna evolve to have slat glands like the salt water croc,and then you know what happens? BOOM we got mosasaurs back

[pearl briar]

i have a ptsd abt mosa atm

[stiff osprey]

when the jaguar has no crushing teeth

[pearl briar]

do you guys think this is a lambeo or corytho?

[rocky drum]

https://youtu.be/xWlmzl2jCNs

[stark pasture]

Looks like theres going to be alot more fighting and hunting this season.

[elfin moss]

Remake eo n give it these horns

[heady thunder]

Yeah, hopefully theres some more dino violence in Season 2

[stark pasture]

That could come with that edited dinos mod. Perhaps +damage - turning. Would be unique.

[fallow plank]

Or maybe the devs can find some magical way to change appearances of dino genders

[stark pasture]

The colors already do the trick for the most part. No real reason to have it.

[fallow plank]

B-but...ok 😔

[ocean drum]

nah we need sexual dimorphism in pot but the issue is there's not enough material to get it right let alone add it at all.

[glad carbon]

I think they should make the babies look like actual babies first

[stark pasture]

We dont need it, people want it theres a difference.

[ocean drum]

I agree

[heady thunder]

Most babies look like babies tho? The only one I can think of which should get more "babified" is Rex

[ocean drum]

No we still NEED it

[scenic flame]

this is paleo chat

[glad carbon]

Sarcos definitely. Just make their heads a lil bigger along with their eyes. This isn’t a croc or w gator btw but still usable (caiman)

[ocean drum]

I mean we still are talking about difference between age and sex of dinosaur appearances so that kinda counts

[fallow plank]

Cool dog,where did u get it?

[heady thunder]

Maybe for the hatchling phase, but juvenile crocs arent that different proportions wise.

[glad carbon]

Lol these are actually pets, they’re called dwarf caimans and they get just big enough to where you can keep if as a pet but it won’t kill you

[fallow plank]

Interesting,caimans are gators right?

[cinder jewel]

Sorry someone already posted didn't realize

[last iron]

Dunno where to put this but official Prehistoric planet season 2 trailer dropped NVM LOL

[glad carbon]

Not exactly, no. They’re in their own family but they are still crocodilians clearly.

[fallow plank]

Oooooooh

[cinder jewel]

Did the same thing lol

[glad carbon]

Caimans commonly get smaller than their crocodile and gator “cousins” but they still pack a punch, and while dwarf caimans are pretty small they can still do some damage. Their teeth are sharp, and if ya look up some dwarf caiman feeding videos they’re lil savages lmao

This one actually looks deranged

[glad carbon]

I think their eyes should still be a lil bigger. Rex is definitely first on the list tho lmao

[heady thunder]

Even Rex doesnt start out that bad, it just gets chonky very quick.

[fallow plank]

Quick question,is it possible for pterosaurs to fly with feathers replacing their wing membrane?

[glad carbon]

It doesn’t look like a baby though, it just looks like a little copy pasted adult rex. It should be skinny jaw wise and body frame wise for later into it’s life.

[heady thunder]

Tbh its not really a baby, none of the dinos are babies, theyre juveniles, so thatd be like, a 1-2 year old Rex? Idk.

[glad carbon]

Even then they still would look skinny. Only adolescent to maybe sub adults would start getting chunky

[ocean drum]

Baby Rex should be changed it’s too chunky it’s face is wrong and it should have feathers

[stiff osprey]

Unlikely, pterosaur brains would be highly adapted to adjust their membrane during flight and wouldn't be able to work with a completely different material

[ocean drum]

Exactly

[glad carbon]

Also sarcos need more saggy skin I want fat sarcos where’s the fat reserves. Baby crocs are fat asl, like lil sausages with legs. I wanna see dat

[chilly knot]

Depends if you call alligatorids or alligatorines "gators"

[ocean drum]

I meant baby Rex not adult

[glad carbon]

Ohh ok. I think they’d have some body hair but not full blown feathers. As a baby that would be cute tho

[ocean drum]

Tbh pp’s baby Rex is really good

But the adult is too chunky because of the misplaced gastralia

[glad carbon]

Bb Rexes would look like lil scrawny raptors, and I think the adult rex rn needs a lil more body fat

[ocean drum]

No Rex is good for now

[ocean brook]

Any1 wtf is this?

[glad carbon]

Nothing is bad enough to change, I agree. I might jus go thru all tha babies n see if they look like babies or copy paste adults

[stiff osprey]

Phosphorosaurus, maybe

[ocean drum]

The chunkiest it could get would probably be the muscle mass from the last tyrant but that’s still a bit large

[ocean brook]

I thought that was a metriorhynchid until I realize this is the cretaceous

[ocean drum]

Maybe it’s a tylosaurus I mean it’s not as chunky as the mosasaurus but has a very similar body shape kinda like the actual animal

Spino=plesiosaurus confirmed

[fallow plank]

That be terrifying to see

[glad carbon]

Lol u just see its head just sticking out of the water

[heady thunder]

Looking at the baby model, its not really that bad, the head is narrower and the snout is longer, the body is still way less robust, the only problem proportions wise is the body being overly thick and the legs should be a little longer, some lips when its a baby would be nice, as for feathers theyd be cool, but theyd need a separate model which might now work well with continstent growth.

[glad carbon]

It’s pretty bad. If still looks like a mini adult instead of a child.

[ocean drum]

Exactly but it probably has proportionally longer arms than the adult

[fallow plank]

Wait a min,I think the baby rexes from the console trailer are more real looking hold on...

[glad carbon]

I will say, there’s probably limits to the changes they can make to the babies while making the growth look seamless, but still putting it out there.

[glad carbon]

Even then, while they might have to make multiple models to show the growth, i think it’d be cute. Also the bb rex steps are so heavy already they should be a lil lighter, and being a scrawny bb might help w that

[pearl briar]

yo is this (likely) trike specimen "Yoshi"?

[stiff osprey]

Horns are based on Yoshi but otherwise it's the default trike model

[ocean drum]

Yeah

[glad carbon]

Oh this is the wrong chat but the footstep sounds are kinda strange don’t you think? Like they’re booming for some reason when it’d probably only be slight thump noises. Maybe my volume is up to high. And shouldn’t it be based off of weight more than age? Why the heck to meg footsteps sound so damn deep when they’re barely bb sarco sized?

[ocean drum]

I agree also to be honest rexes steps should be quieter considering the fact that it was most likely an ambush predator

[heady thunder]

More of a balancing thing then a realism thing, the big stuff makes more noise.

[fallow plank]

Idk if it's just me but this seems more closer to what a babu rex would look like I failed my screenshot 😭

[glad carbon]

Yeah but they could make like crackling of the leaves or the dirt or snapping branches louder than have this base boosted booming

[tough parcel]

It’s still a mini adult, so no

[gleaming saddle]

hello everyone

[pearl briar]

my man is confirmed to be austroraptor

[fallow plank]

[ocean drum]

💀 it looks like a therizinosaurus on crack

[glad carbon]

also I’m tryna grow another sarco and I’ve hit that sarco puberty stage to where your footsteps are extremely base boosted and your calls sound like an adult but you still do baby damage. Been stomped out multiple times when I really shouldn’t be making much noise at all

[pearl briar]

yo lessgo rex vs quetz
1v2 👀

[ocean drum]

It’s still not a fair fight lmao

[tough parcel]

Rex stomps frfr

[fallow plank]

All it takes is one sneeze from that rex and poof

[glad carbon]

Baby Rexes really got it bad, they sound like an adolescent as a hatchling

[pearl briar]

no

[heady thunder]

If the Rex gets "intimidated" that will be goooofy

[fallow plank]

Huh- >.>

[ancient crystal]

Oh it probably will be, read the description of the episode on that episode guide they released

[pearl briar]

fair not fair whatever it's I N T E R E S T I N G F I G H T

[ocean drum]

The Rex just one shots them how is it interesting

[stiff osprey]

If the rex is not hungry, enough pestering from quetz and it may well move off

[heady thunder]

I hope they make up a good story to explain why thatd happen, its like making a lion get scared off by two jackals.

[west drum]

the Rex probably isn’t hungry, assuming it already ate. It’ll just walk off and leave the quetz to eat.

[ocean drum]

Do you know how aggressive Rex would’ve been also i don’t think it would take a sauropod down to not eat it

[pearl briar]

yeah man rex size & his 57.000 newton bite force are such a deadly combo
...
except for quetz 👀

[stiff osprey]

It didn't take a sauropod down, the Alamo has no injuries and only the rex left footprints in the sand. That carcass has been there a while

[west drum]

we don’t know how aggressive Rex was, and no.. that sauropod probably died of natural causes

[ocean drum]

I’m quite sure it would’ve been quite aggressive judging by it’s competition like anky trike Edmont and especially towards other rexes

[neat drum]

lions, who casually get driven off kills by a singular monitor lizard:

[pearl briar]

so this is like a same case as 1 lion vs 2 storks?

[west drum]

it probably wouldn’t be too aggressive towards herbivores.. other rexes, maybe. It’s only ‘true competition’ are other Rexes.

[heady thunder]

Wait, what monitor lizard? And I doubt those were actual adult lions.

[neat drum]

nile monitors are known to walk right into prides of lions, flip their tail around, and take over

the lions tend to oblige since letting the lizard eat for a moment is better than a broken jaw

[stiff osprey]

the rex does seem rather small, it's not even as long as the alamo's neck

but knowing rex ontogeny it would be very disappointing if they used an adult model on a subadult

[ocean drum]

Agreed

[neat drum]

generally big cats try to avoid being whacked by the monitor lizards they share their ranges with, even if they normally can easily kill said lizard if they try

[west drum]

https://youtube.com/shorts/3mGAGhQV86g?feature=share LMAO

[pearl briar]

maybe an average 11 meters rex (ig)?

[neat drum]

respect the tail, it hurts and is unpleasant at best

[pearl briar]

prenocephale instead of homalocephale
this is crime

[ocean drum]

Does it really matter though?

[west drum]

bro knew right away not to mess with it. I watched a video of some younger lions testing it and being whacked

[neat drum]

they have a baseball bat for a rear end, it hurts and can cause serious injury, best give the lizard its space and let it do its thing

and whats better is that lions and leopards both will hunt them, its just normally that they deem dealing with a monitor to be more work than its worth

[heady thunder]

I saw one that whacked a lioness and the lion just, stood there, ngl I was expecting a more violent response lol

[west drum]

LMAO- got stunned- imagine that but with megalania

[neat drum]

theres a vid somewhere of a young leopard pestering a nile, then yeeting into the next dimension when the lizard popped its tail

that may be it

[heady thunder]

That one didnt get hit tho.

[neat drum]

honestly prime example of why predator-prey relationships dont always go the way you'd expect, sometimes you just dont wanna get hit by the lizard thats only like one days meal

[west drum]

I have a new appreciation for lizards.

[unborn bane]

Please keep the chat on topic. This channel is for the discussion of past and present paleontological discoveries, scientific news, and depictions of prehistoric creatures in media in relation to palaeontology.

[elfin pulsar]

Thank you!

[neat drum]

ok time for an incredibly important question

if you threw a nonavian dinosaur, would it try to right itself like a bird, or would it go into "bleep blorp does not compute" mode that other reptiles go into when thrown?

[stiff osprey]

I think the latter for sauropods, the former for theropods

Basal sauropodomorphs have birdlike head stabilizing mechanisms for going after small prey, which presumably theropods also started out with. More derived sauropods lost the mechanism

Ornithischians uh... idk

[night skiff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWlmzl2jCNs

This looks amazing!

[little mauve]

Most ornithiscians had pretty basic or poor gaze stabilization, if you flipped them they'd be pretty whacked out

[trim crag]

yeah similarly with honey badgers, the overly aggressive nature is just not worth getting hurt if they're already full on food

[bright veldt]

Except that honey badgers rarely if ever actually go looking for trouble. Their abilities and attitude is mostly a myth.

[ocean drum]

the first and third ''fact'' 😂 💀 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/20-mind-blowing-facts-about-dinosaurs/ss-AA1aCvwt?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=722c9769c5864eefb31dc43fa88ebae8&ei=13#image=1

[stiff osprey]

Their abilities not so much, just that the honey badgers people think are casually strolling up to lions for a show are actually fighting for their lives against a predator they are hopeless to escape

[bright veldt]

Basically. Albeit they still get predated more frequently then people think.

[trim crag]

Yeah exactly

besides african leopards are prominent predators of smaller carnivores such as ratel and nile monitor

[ocean drum]

nah can we talk about the disrespectful nature of ant-eaters or hippo's speaking of hippo's imagine how H.Gorgops would've been

[trim crag]

Are you one of those people who thinks anteaters are vicious jaguar killers, because they aren't, in some parts of their range anteaters make up a large portion of jaguar diet

[ocean drum]

no i aint one of them but they still are just disrespectful vacuum cleaners tho

[bright veldt]

AFAIK the structure of their skulls suggest that H. gorgops were likely less aggressive than modern hippos despite their larger size

[ocean drum]

I know they wouldn't really need that aggression but still imagine one just chasing a lion

[slim ridge]

They also get eaten, a lot, it is worth the trouble

[trim crag]

From what I've seen leopards seem to be the biggest killer of honey badgers along with crocodile and python

[slim ridge]

Brown hyena also do it fairly often

[heady thunder]

Leopards are menaces, werent they also very prominent early hominid hunters?

[slim ridge]

Yup, and they still are

[arctic turtle]

Y’all lookin forward to prehistoric planet 2?

[night skiff]

Hell yeah! The new trailer looks awesome. I hope there is a crocodilian like dienosuches in the swamp episode.

[woeful falcon]

I'm not

[night skiff]

Wait…your not excited for season 2?….why?

[dull lodge]

In this trailer there were 2 quetzals facing against a trex but would it ever be possible for 2 quetzals to win a battle against a full grown trex?

[stiff osprey]

A battle? No, not even 10 Quetz. But they could annoy the rex enough for it to leave if the rex was not hungry

[heady thunder]

Rex could probably grab one quetz and swing it around to beat the other 9 lol.

[dull lodge]

I feel 10 quetzals could definitely injure a rex

[stiff osprey]

Injure yeah, but several of them would die in the process. That's not something irl animals are willing to risk

[cinder jewel]

Injure for sure but ten quetz added together are still like a quarter of a rex's weight. Unless one manages to brain the rex, they're not winning.

[stone plover]

the best quetz could do is try to intimidate it, they weigh barely anything compared to a rex and a blunt beak can only do so much

[vast narwhal]

Bro I can solo a quetz

[dull lodge]

I know a quetzal doesn't come close to that of a rex in weight and strength and I know it was very light for it's size but was it really that weak

[jagged trellis]

not really, moreso rex is just fat, quetz is still a animal capable of man handling fair bit of the stuff it was built for

[stray wren]

The average tyrannosaurus's skull weighs more than quetz in its entirety

[jagged trellis]

big skull and a flying animal, so a skull over 550 pounds is....alot

[stiff osprey]

Quetz is very good at hunting things human sized and smaller. meanwhile rex is very good at hunting things 10x quetz's size

quetz in the modern day would be considered one of the largest land predators, but rex is on another level

[stray wren]

the bone alone weighs at least 200lbs, factoring in the added weight of muscle it's well within the range of possibility

[pearl briar]

iirc that's like a 1 lion vs 2 storks

[pearl briar]

god of land predator

[hallow spear]

So like 10m high things? 👹

[stiff osprey]

are you suggesting quetz is 1 meter high

[nimble cargo]

When y’all said Quetz, my brain instantly went to Ark 💀

It was a pain to tame the one I have 😭

[dusky galleon]

Who would win? A person sized chicken or a chicken sized T.Rex?

[light osprey]

A person sized chicken.

[dusky galleon]

Yeah.

[pearl briar]

k-pg asteroid
ez win 🥱

[storm heron]

Wait, how does their skull structure imply being less aggressive?

[storm heron]

Im curious to see how the Quetzalcoatlus and Tyrannosaurus interaction goes. It can display some of the weirdest and somewhat unexplainable occurrences that occur in nature.

I will not be surpised if the Quetzacoatlus manage to make the Tyrannosaurus leave.

[dusky galleon]

@pearl briar No no the KFC asteroid.

[gaunt raven]

To be fair the rex might be able to kill the quetz but the risk of injury that could happen and the sheer size (even if it’s not as heavy) would probably be enough to intimidate a real life animal

Idk that’s my view and not to mention a quetz might not be able to immediately kill a rex in one go but a few well placed jabs and stuff could pose a very dangerous issue for the rex cuz of infection, and permanent damage, like for the stork vs lion example used earlier, a stork of it jabs it’s beak into a lion in the shoulder or neck area might not kill the lion at the time but it would be very dangerous in the long run for a lion because of the risk of infections and hunting problems and all sorts of stuff

[barren compass]

was there any pterosaur species that could match or beat the speed of the fastest modern birds?

[pastel tartan]

I dont think so

[ocean brook]

i need a reminder on wth silesaurus is suppose to be

[woeful falcon]

an almost dinosaur

[torn sluice]

Is the pycno in game with no horns an actual species?

[bright veldt]

I forgot the exact details, but the jaws seemed to be less suited for the territorial fighting that is known today in hippos. This implies they might've been less territorial, and this territoriality is THE leading factor for hippopotamus aggression.

[nocturne cairn]

Hornless pycno is the actual pycno. We don't have a preserved skull to assume it had any horns. Many closely related abelisaurs don't have horns, Carno is the one odd one in the group to have any

[woeful falcon]

ya. by name its not an actual species but by appearance its the most appropriate to call pycno.

[torn sluice]

Ah okau

[frail robin]

It says in the episode description that "No one can intimidate North America's top predator, T.Rex... -except for a giant winged foe"

[bright veldt]

I haven't talked about it in here, but such a thing occurring is absolutely rediculous for a multitude of reasons.

[frail robin]

Quetz trying to intimidate a T.Rex? It could surely happen. Geese have a pretty easy time scaring away animals larger than them, and a giraffe sized stork would be able to give a good scare to Rex. Although, if the Rex is smart enough to resist the Quetz's bluff, and tries to attack it, the Quetz will have to either flee or die

[bright veldt]

The issue is that it's like a vulture stealing a lion's kill. The size difference is ridiculous, and an adult rex would already have enough experience with quetz at its kills to know their games.

[woeful falcon]

I had this thought earlier but never made a comment because I was busy but in my mind if the rex was younger, less experienced and say unfamiliar with Quetzalcoatlus perhaps it might then get intimidated by one, but such a bluff might only last so long.

[frail robin]

It's really not. A vulture is smaller than a lion, while a Quetz is taller than a T.Rex. Also, the individual T.Rex could be a young adult, so it could be inexperienced. Still, a screaming Quetz opening it's wings and fake-charging at a T.Rex would give the predator a bit of a fright

[woeful falcon]

a young adult I think is enough years of hunting experience. maybe not against a full blown Triceratops but enough to have a handle on what they're doing

[bright veldt]

Lemme get the paragraph I made that summarizes why it's nonsense

[woeful falcon]

Lets say even an adult. If perhaps caught off guard it might be startled by a quetz but the size discrepancy between the two, I can only imagine it being momentary.

and lets say its response isn't attack but threat display because Tyrannosaurus aren't the swiftest animals all things considered so its response might be "I'm bigger, step off this kill is mine", I have to imagine a Quetzalcoatlus wouldn't dare that.

[bright veldt]

1. Tyrannosaurus rex is the apex predator of its ecosystem.

2. Azhdarchids in PhP are already established to be common scavengers at kill sites, even if it is not their main niche.

3. This tyrannosaurus is at a size and age where, given the last two statements, it has likely already met quetzacoatlus before and would be already familiar with them.

So, again, with the information presented above, how does a mature Rex being intimidated by a quetz make sense?

I cannot reiterate how massive the size difference is. This T. rex's head alone is heavier than the quetzalcoatlus. The quetz literally cannot do anything to it and it would know it.

[woeful falcon]

unless, of course, the Quetz's lose in this case and back down. because we do see the rex stand its ground so perhaps what's unseen is the Quetz realize quickly they're outmatch then backdown from the kill. won't know til its out

[frail robin]

Yeah, I'm hyped to see how the confrontation goes between them

I'm also hyped to see Austroraptor appear, along with Pachycephalosaurus

[elfin pulsar]

Damn people really think rex would be scared of quetz?

[light osprey]

I don’t see anything inherently wrong with the confrontation. Quetzalcoatlus is an imposing presence, regardless of its actual weight, but from what we’ve seen the Tyrannosaurus stands his ground as they would’ve probably done in life.

[rose thorn]

Tbf, it’s a very bizarre creature. The Rex may very well have grown up in an area where the 5 meter tall murder stork with a wingspan just as large as Rex is long wasn’t a common occurrence. To see that for the first time would undoubtedly be unnerving, even for an animal with no real reason to.

[white matrix]

quetz vs rex

[elfin pulsar]

Well, that’s true

[tiny holly]

I see it being more likely as a "is this really worth my time and energy" rather than "ooh aah those things are actually intimidating". Assuming the rex has already managed to eat a decent amount why waste energy guarding it from these tall angry things that can give you really painful pecks. Smaller scavengers can and do bully larger animals off of carrion for this reason. The larger predator isn't necessarily actually worried about it, it just really doesn't want to have to deal with it. It really depends on how hungry it is imo

[elfin pulsar]

Makes sense

[rose thorn]

^ especially if more Quetz show up on the scene, which I’m personally hopeful for

[tiny holly]

yeah. 1 quetz isnt much, but when the whole flock rolls up? You gotta figure whether it's really worth it

sometimes the optimal survival strat is to just be the biggest most annoying nuisance anyone has ever seen 👍

[rose thorn]

https://youtu.be/37B11Nr8e4g

[cloud dagger]

For me, i couldn’t care less of this quetz & rex ep. I’ve never liked rex, it’s overpresented in every dino media, it already made appearance in the show, there are a ton of dinos to choose from and yet it’s rex again smh 😂

[storm heron]

Even though Quetzalcoatlus co-existed in the region, the question is how often did a Tyrannosaurus have to deal with a pestering Quetz? This could play a role in whether the Tyrannosaurus is experienced in knowing how to deal with them or not.

Maybe the two animals do not cross paths often, but there is a sauropod carcass in the trailer, and that can very well attract a lot of carnivores in the region so.

[scenic flame]

I will point out, quetz is less than 1/10 the size of an average (8 ton~) rex

[pearl briar]

wait-
could it be an alamotyrannus???

[storm heron]

I have to remind myself how large Arzdarchids (I hope I spelt that right) can appear even to other theropods.

[heady thunder]

I cant wrap my head around how that flying giraffe weighs like less then the Rexes head.

[pearl briar]

gotta agree that rex solo all 🥱

[storm heron]

Its impressive how some of these giant storks can tower over one of the largest terrestrial carnivores to have ever lived, even if it weighs less.

[white matrix]

Ok so i had a debate on how big gallimimus was and they said it was 2m tall, later i did some research and found that thats its hip height

Also about the weight, ik it says it weights about 440kg but i think 500-600kg is reasonable too but im not sure

[tiny holly]

yeah thats why how tall something is is often misleading and debatable, because in a lot of animals (and in basically all theropods) height is measured to the hip. This is because the hip height isn't really going to change regardless of what the animal's natural pose is. But if you measure to the head, an animal that naturally holds itself more upright would be "taller" than one that holds itself more horizontal despite the fact they could literally both be the exact same shape and size

[white matrix]

Ok i get now

But now, what about its weight, also hot topic incoming, galli can solo achillobator

[tiny holly]

Weight wise <500kg is still pretty reasonable, while it is tall keep in mind that it is very lithe in its build. And its not like thats light anyway. That's the weight of some adult horse breeds.

It probably weighs more than achillobator and with legs like those I'm sure a kick would be nasty. But it has a lot of neck that's prime grab real estate tbf

[white matrix]

Yessir i agree

[ocean drum]

I feel like it’s experienced based tbh although if achillobator lands the raptor prey restraint than it’s kinda over for the galli simply because achillobator’s weight is pretty damn close to galli’s then again galli could turn over if achillobator jumps on it

[ocean drum]

Rex was the largest terrestrial carnivore by 0.2 tons for instance giga was 10.4 and Rex was 10.6

[pearl briar]

wait
why allo got the nickname "Lions of Jurassic" while there's torvo and sauro twice the size of them?

[storm heron]

Well a 200kg difference of size between two giant theropods (especially those that exceed ~10000kg) isn't really big (you got to consider potential variations in mass estimations, size variations on life, how heavy they get after a meal).

[ocean drum]

I know but based on the data that has been given Rex is the largest terrestrial carnivore discovered also I think Rex would get heavier after a meal because of giga’s fast metabolism

[heady thunder]

Lions arent really the biggest either, but they do dominate their habitats, allo had torvo and sauro outnumbered 10 to 1, so maybe cos of that.

[storm heron]

If you just look at the raw data/numbers, sure.

[heady thunder]

What are the weight estimates for tarbo and zycheng?

[ocean drum]

Wasn’t it like 30 to 1 or was that sauro or certato

[heady thunder]

Maybe, but its a fact that allo outnumbered both of them significantly

[storm heron]

Well a GDI found the largest described Tarbosaurus specimen (PIN 551-1) to be around ~5392kg. Though there are mature specimens smaller than that (and I think possibly larger too?). Zuchengtyrannus mass estimates will vary depending on whether you base it on Tarbosaurus or Tyrannosaurus (due to proportional differences).

[heady thunder]

Hmmm, so how does the average tarbo stack at? Like 4.5 tons?

[ocean drum]

Iirc it was 5.5

[dull lodge]

I wonder how strong the quetzal was

[simple cave]

In what way?

[pearl briar]

iirc tarbo is uhh...
~5 tonnes

[storm heron]

Hmm, I would assume the size range for Tarbosaurus would be between ~3000kg to ~5500kg (Some of the smaller specimens are comparable to Daspletosaurus and Albertosaurus in size) but that is just a pure guess (I dont think there are any mass estimates for the smaller adults).

[stiff osprey]

We have no idea which specimens of Tarbo are adults besides the holotype, because lacking histology moment

[ocean drum]

I would disagree because of dasp and albertosaurus having lighter builds than tarbo when it was closer to the body shape/build to T.rex

[pearl briar]

why allo "Different"?
is it ugly?

[heady thunder]

It was different to the megalosaurs and tyranosaurs previously described, so maybe thats why they named it that.

[ocean drum]

That’s what I was going to say

[pearl briar]

i see

[storm heron]

Really? does this include PIN 551-3, MPC-D 107/2, and ZPAL MgD 107/2?

[ocean drum]

Potentially

[pearl briar]

ahh what an interesting names sm tarbo got there/j

[heady thunder]

That third tarbo name sounds like a headache

[storm heron]

Funny you say that, the third specimen has a weird skull (either because of variation or distortion or both).

[ocean drum]

I speculate scientists give dinosaur specimens such odd names so you know for a fact that that’s the one your looking for

[heady thunder]

So, kinda like Sue with a crushed top?

[storm heron]

The specimen is the bottom one.

[heady thunder]

Heh, funny nose

[ocean drum]

Bro probably ran into a rock and bumped it’s nose

[warm temple]

I wonder how these paleo nerd people can even remember such specimen name

[west drum]

bro got bonked

[glad carbon]

Idk bruh it’s engraved in their being

[heady thunder]

They probably see it all the time while doing research, or they just keep them in notes lel

[pearl briar]

how old brachio can get?
~100 years?

[compact leaf]

they probably lived a really long time yeah, we know they got to at least 50 but probably a lot longer

a big part of it is that big animals have slower metabolisms and typically really good dna repair to deal with cancer, long lifespan comes as a side effect of that

[stiff osprey]

safe to say giant sauropods would have lived into their 60s, at least. which puts them comparable to elephants

[rose thorn]

Don’t old wild elephants marginally keel over because they run out of teeth and just slowly starve to death? Zoo captives can live into their 70s iirc

[trim crag]

Yeah and agreeing with the message below yours they still are but are not as prominent with hominids as they are with hominins now

actually I confused those 2 terms

[heady thunder]

Well, tbf, there arent really any hominids around today, unless monkeys and apes count, then its business as usual for the leopards

[trim crag]

Hominids are all the extant great apes, what I meant to say is that they aren't as prominent of predators of humans as they used to be

[rose thorn]

Chimps slowly but surely becoming less tribal asshats towards one another and building villages:

[ocean drum]

Because of innovation

[trim crag]

Leopards are just menaces to everything, they turn the tables on pythons that ambush them, beat the life out of the seemingly invincible ratel, attack the living pincushion known as the crested porcupine and then have a 2,000 lbs Eland or giant silverback gorilla for dinner

[ocean shell]

Can anyone ID this tooth?

[woeful falcon]

If I had to guess I would say that's the tooth of an acorn

[ocean shell]

LOL

I woulda guessed that too if my professor didn’t tell me it belonged to either a croc or shark

[little mauve]

Looks like a croc crusher tooth

[short sigil]

Any nerds know of any dinos with a foot like this?

[deft sigil]

Please remain polite and respectful towards other members. Refer to our #rules

[short sigil]

it's a jab (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jab) with no malicious intent, just a joke

[bright veldt]

I’ll have to respectfully agree. Nerd is never used in an actually disrespectful manner anymore.

That aside, the flexibility of the 2nd toe is weird. Aside from that, looks like a carcharodontosaur foot to me, maybe the South American variety specifically cause Meraxes

[short sigil]

aye thank you was wondering wat that could have been

[trim crag]

do crocs actually have some flat teeth like that?

[wary junco]

definitely looks like a tooth from something durophagous, where is it from may I ask? It looks remarkably like a lot of Globidens teeth fossils, which are quite common in fossil markets, although a lot of the ones with multiple teeth are composites

[ocean shell]

Oh thank you so much!!

[ocean shell]

I’ll ask where it’s from, can’t remember the name off the top of my head. I’m in the PA area but I’m not sure if that’s where my prof got it

[wary junco]

Ah no worries, glad I could help! I owned a Globidens tooth at one point so it immediately looked familiar ahaha

[little mauve]

Globidens seems like a really safe bet, is the prof sure it was a croc or a shark? @trim crag yeah there are fossils from probably durophagous rocs with very rounded or flat teeth. That shape repeats again and again in reptiles that specialize in crushing shells (or sometimes nuts/seeds)

[trim crag]

Cool

[woeful falcon]

possible they weren't sure it was a croc or shark but is familiar with the shape in those kind of animals in particular, especially if its a shape that likes to repeat itself in a wide variety of animals.

[cinder jewel]

I'll also throw a vote towards Globidens

[little mauve]

Now tell your teach that it's a mosasaur, not a crocodile 😉

[dusky galleon]

Minty fresh giga.

I can't lie when I saw this I thought it looked like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

What sauropod could the minty Giga be eating? I'm assuming not an argent

[tough parcel]

Probably a young Candeleros giant (It's likely not meant to be the C. Giant, but I don't think any other sauropod is close to that in its formation?)

[dusky galleon]

Ty

[torn sluice]

What is the largest species of the raptor family?

[elfin pulsar]

Do you mean dromeosaurids

Raptor is basically just predatory bird, could be a lot

[torn sluice]

Well whatever their called I'm not too in tune with their genus name

[elfin pulsar]

Utahraptor

[torn sluice]

What was the largest plesiosaur?

[steep atlas]

i think sachicasaurus is one of the largest

[chilly knot]

Sachica is yes

[bright veldt]

Literally the same weight as leedsichthys

[tranquil quartz]

Is there fossil evidence for Ceratosaurus eating any sort of fish?

[little mauve]

No, it was a theory put forward by Bakker at one point but wasn't supported by direct fossil evidence

[tranquil quartz]

Ah okay just cause one of my friends said there was evidence for Ceratosaurus eating sharks.

[bright veldt]

Yeah no

[dull lodge]

Whaaatt?

[chilly knot]

Lmao

[dull lodge]

I ain’t to sure bout that

[pearl briar]

iirc sachica weight is anywhere from 14-15+ tons

[little mauve]

They are mistaken, it was an inland predator and did not interact with sharks

[sudden wind]

Leedsichthys is a huge fish but it may be smaller than a whale shark with a weight about 15 metric tonnes. Some people recently scaled the specimen to like between 11 and 14 meters long but it may change a bit as they modify their reconstruction.

https://twitter.com/FabioAleRomero/status/1577501282964742144

Fabio Alejandro (@FabioAleRomero)

I’m finally happy to have completed this famous as well one of the largest bony fishes of all time that wandered across the Late Jurassic seas, the famous filter feeder #Leedsichthys, the titan pachycormid.

Likes

604

Twitter · Oct 5, 2022, 3:29 AM

[tranquil quartz]

Thought so. Wasn’t the theory only brought forward due to it having a dense tail?

[little mauve]

No there were a few other reasons. Niche partitioning from other carnivores, finds that were presumed to be near lakebeds, large lungfish were also very common & Bakker figured it could have specialized in those to some extent. The tail was proposed as being deep, like a crocodile, but AFAIK there's nothing particularly deep about it

[tranquil quartz]

Ok, thanks for clarifying this for me👍

[little mauve]

You're welcome, I recommend the book Jurassic West by Foster for more info on the Morrison Formation (Cerato's home turf)

[somber knoll]

Did Stegosaurids live mostly through the Jurassic? That is what I know - and if it's true, how exactly did animals with such a simple survival plan possibly have gone extinct?

[light osprey]

Climate change

[jagged trellis]

if i recall the sub set of ankylosaurids were probably a factor seeing the heavier armor and predators aiming for more bulk with the cycle, food changes climate and all sort of other things were always part of it

[somber knoll]

Is adapting to different food sources that difficult, evolutionarily speaking?

I get that cases such as a clade of Theropods like Ornithomimus being herbivores are like needles in a haystack, but with the probably constant change of food sources & competition, would it be that hard to switch food sources belonging to the same diet group, E.G. supplementing meat for fishes or one kind of fruit/vegetable/lead with others having similar nutritional values?

Cuz like, purely from a survival perspective, stegosaurids are scary.

[stiff osprey]

When we're talking so far back in the fossil record, why an animal could or could not adapt to a changing environment is a completely random guess.

But stegosaurs did survive into the Cretaceous, just highly reduced in diversity

[rose thorn]

Ankylosaurs: Go extinct already

[compact leaf]

I’m not saying that stegosaurids did but it’s also worth noting that a couple groups that seem like they go extinct in the early cretaceous may have lasted a lot longer (some groups like that tend to pop up, like diplodocids), there’s a couple areas we still just don’t really have late cretaceous fossils from still like parts of europe and africa

[neat drum]

You get a bad drought and then a disease outbreak and boom, even the toughest species are felled

[trim crag]

family not genus

The genus name is what we usually know them by (such as Tyrannosaurus or Triceratops)

[white matrix]

https://youtube.com/shorts/0Nw1-n5UvPw?feature=share

Devs where you at?

[steady rock]

it dosent help that shunosaurus came first before any ankylosaurid

[neat drum]

and its club wasn't actually that big or specialized like the ankylosaurids

[steady rock]

its tail is kinda like a spiked mace

[light osprey]

Anyone have a list of the monocots that existed during the Cretaceous?

[little mauve]

Monocots started diverging in the early mid cretaceous, so primitive forms of all the modern groups likely existed somewhere in the 114-66 my range. It's hard to determine exactly which is which. Palms were common and recognizable by the end of the Cretaceous, pandans/screw pines too, we have evidence of grass in the Late Cretaceous but it wasn't common

[hasty wharf]

Im super excited about prehistoric planet, it’s one of the best dinosaur documentaries out there, and the fact that it’s still continuing puts a smile on my face, and the triceratops scene in the new trailer made me freak out cuz I wanted more trike bullfighting in documentaries… trikes usually fight Tyrannosaurs, and it becomes annoying imo, trikes fighting each other over dominance is gonna be so fun to watch!!!!

[leaden vigil]

Id be happy with any sort of natural behavior instead of just fighting to the death like from most dinosaur media. Although I felt the hunting in last season was censored in a way.

[pearl briar]

...
ankylodocus is that you???

[trim crag]

I feel like that's what made S1 so boring though, besides the Nanuq vs Pachyrhino there really was no intensity, just dinosaurs living normally, the most tense scenes that werent that scene was probably either of the mosasaur scenes or the mosquito scene lol

[leaden vigil]

I honestly didnt find it boring, I love watching animals just thrive. My issues lie in the censorship of natural behaviors. Such as during the nanuq vs pachyrhino hunt the camera angles all felt very far and they seemed afraid to show any sort of blood from anything that wasnt already dead even if its pretty minimal. Not really a huge deal it just makes me feel like im missing out on whats actually happening up close… anyway back to dino facts

[bright veldt]

That's kind of the point. I wouldn't call PhP boring in the slightest. It managed to show them as interesting and engaging without resorting to that.

But yeah I do agree on the "soft-censorship" Prehistoric Planet's doing. Walking with Dinosaurs and Walking with Beasts did not shy away from the blood and brutality when showing hunting and fighting.

[woeful falcon]

on the contrary, I think the "just dinosaurs living normally" is what makes Prehistoric Planet so good and what made the Walking With franchise as a whole as successful as it was, showing dinosaurs in a light we could never see, their day to day lives for better worse or mundane in the frame of a nature documentary as if it was something genuinely happening. It's what I loved about the original Walking With and why I loved PhP, the portrayal of them as just animals. Which they were.

That said, I also am in agreement about the "soft-censorship" as scan put it.

[frail robin]

Yeah, I mostly enjoyed PhP for the same reasons, because it's not "RAAAAH I AM GOING TO KILL. MURDER MURDER MURDER" jurrasic fight club cough cough, but it shows much more natural behaviours

[tiny holly]

At the very least with the nanuq and pachyrhino scene im not too fussed about it being shot from afar because to me its pretty clear they're trying to replicate drone/helicopter footage, which is a very very common angle for hunts in modern documentaries to be shot from. Easy to track the hunt and see it all up there.

that being said it would be nice to see the more intense aspects. I wouldn't want it to be the focus because I think paleomedia has a tendency to focus on it too much. But it would better bring the show in line with the modern documentaries its trying to replicate by showing all aspects of nature, even the sometimes gruesome ones

[somber knoll]

Wasn't there also the hunt of the Qianzhousaurus and of the Velociraptor?

I personally found the Quanzhou scene pretty tense, especially bevause it didn't really resort in a fight - you've got something fast trying to catch something fast and in a group, in a forest. The slow walk to try and not make a sound was pretty neat.

The Velociraptor scene was just exciting to me, like a grounded eagle that tried it's best without flying, lol. And it was awesome for it.

I'll agree that, especially in the raptor scene, the soft censorship was present, but on the other hand having the camera farther away conveyed the "do or die" decision of jumping off the nest very nicely - both the sheer height and confidence it must've had to do it and the feeling of hopelessness of flightless eagles being surrounded by a flock of very angry flying reptiles if they don't.

On that note, you could make the argument that the soft censorship is also a product of the cinematography - be it the attempt to recreate drone footage, or to better give off the gravity of the situation to the viewer.

Plus, both in the Rex vs Trike aftermath and Qianzhousaurus hunt, I like the approach of "Well, you see, you can easily die as a Dino too! One bite or one unfortunate trike horn to the leg is all it takes to down these guys" - an aspect that I feel often gets forgotten. These things aren't tanks relative to one another, not the ones that didn't evolve to be tanks at least.

[leaden vigil]

Im glad im not the only one who thought they seemed a little shy in the production of it, im hoping we will see some of these changes in season 2. As for the nanuq and pachyrhino distant shots, it wasn’t really the angle itself i had an issue with more the reason at some moments they would do it to intentionally shy away from specific scenes, I actually love the wide angle shots. All in all Im very excited for season 2 and I think itll be great and I could honestly go either way with the details I mentioned and I will still love it.

[slim ridge]

still uses the small shunosaurus smh

[pearl briar]

anybody knows what is leed most up-to-date weight?
got they're length from 9.2-12.5 meters

[covert lintel]

if you mean out of these images, all of these are equally up-to-date

[pearl briar]

pardon me but i'm asking abt leed most up-to-date weight

[heady thunder]

Depends on the estimate, the more conservative estimates are like 15 tons, the biggest one is 45.

[light osprey]

Basically, measuring a giant pachycormid based on fragmentary material is tricky.

[tiny holly]

its also worth noting that like most large fish it probably varied in size by a LOT, so unless you have a pretty significant sample size (hint: we dont) trying to come up with any actual average size is gonna be rough. Adult whale sharks for example can range anywhere from 8 to up to potentially 18m, which is a pretty insane size range

[neat drum]

Fish when sizes

Fish across species also can vary in weight a ton despite being the same dimensions due to how much internally is gas, fluid, or flesh

So unless we got good cross sections of the animal, gauging weight is p hard

[bright veldt]

I got 17 tons from scaling it from Bonnerichthys (which is about the same as sachica like I said)

[cloud dagger]

There was some discussion about stegos and nutrition so i’d want to add some insight. There is one long-scale research done with italian wall lizards which was introduced to two small islands. They had no competition and iirc not predators. 5 males and 5 females were introduced to both islands. After 35 years these populations showed significant changes; head shape changed, higher bite force to support eating more plant material and less animal material, new organ in their intestine to help digest plant matter and they didn’t show territorial aggressiveness anymore. So changes in diet can be done quickly, but in this case they had not much pressure and stable conditions. Herbi dinos had competition and predators so it makes things more difficult (or it can speed up the process, maybe that’s why only birds survived) Overgrazing may have led their fav plants to go extinct and if they were highly specialized to eat just that, nutritional changes may be too slow (think about koalas for example, i don’t think they can change quickly) and then above all, climate change as mentioned

[pearl briar]

so leed most up-to-date weight is anywhere from 15-45 tonnes?

[heady thunder]

In short, yeah.

[pearl briar]

how heavy is leed specimen "Gill Basket"?
undescribed?

[heady thunder]

Idk who that specimen is, but NHMUK PV P10156 is the biggest leed iirc, and its estimates vary from 12m and 15-20 tons to 16.5m and 45 tons.

[bright veldt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542776901442338816/1103624753064980481/IMG_20230504_170810.jpg

It’s clearly mentioned here that this is the gill basket specimen, meaning 12 meters is Leeds current known largest size.

[tiny holly]

leeds always throws me off and ive had a hard time pinning down why, but i think its because it looks like a small fish thats just been scaled up. like i could picture having fish that look like that that're like 3cm and fit in a home fish tank. such a freak

[ancient crystal]

Its probably the long flowy looking dorsal fins, lots of tank fish have those or something similar

[cinder jewel]

That image is visually unsettling for me. Something about the pectoral fins being where they are make it look like a fish with no... Well neck sounds stupid but that's what my brain is stuck on.

[heady thunder]

For me Leed looks weird cos it looks like a sardine did all the steroids it could find instead of looking like a big fish like a whale shark or smth.

[rose gate]

What would it taste like? 🤔

[zenith timber]

Fish

[amber dune]

So dinosaurs more related to birds then reptiles Right?

[tight prawn]

Yes!

Closer on the evolutionary scale. Reptiles came “before”

[tough parcel]

What no, dinosaurs and birds are reptiles

[bright veldt]

Birds are dinosaurs. It’s a bit complicated with typical reptiles, because crocodiles are the closest modern relatives of dinosaurs while others like lizards and turtles are pretty distant.

Which means yes, crocodiles are closer related to the bird outside your window than they are to a Komodo dragon for example

[tight prawn]

Bird and most Dino’s (as we know) were endothermic. reptiles aren’t so if you look at it from that area they’re more closely related to each other then to squamates

[amber dune]

Like the legs under the body rule?

[hallow shell]

Courtesy of Vividsky

Dinosaurs are reptiles, birds are dinosaurs, therefore birds are reptiles

[tight prawn]

I agree crocs and bird also have very similarly constructed hearts so that also shows their closeness in relation

[bright veldt]

I guess, although that’s only if you look at modern reptiles. There were crocodiles and crocodile relatives that had the legs under their bodies and were more warm-blooded. The ancestors of crocodiles originally started out as warm-blooded but became cold-blooded over time.

[glad carbon]

Croc heart is so cool. Heard that they can control the valve thing to continue circulating blood thru their lungs to stay underwater or sum like that.

[bright veldt]

This sums it up best

[tight prawn]

I just took a vertebrate class on all this stuff it’s so interesting to be able to use my knowledge somewhere. The heart stuff was so interesting. Also how birds basically never breath in old air. They constantly have new air circling in. I wonder if any other Dino’s were like that!

[bright veldt]

Saurischian dinosaurs (theropods and sauropods) at the very least had a similar system to birds. I don’t think it’s clear if ornithischians were similar. It is known that they lost the air sacs that are known to exist in saurischians and pterosaurs.

[tight prawn]

That’s so cool! I know the ornithischians were more distantly related

[cinder jewel]

It really bums me out how much crocodilian diversity was only just recently lost. Crocs, alligators, and caimans are cool, but there were so many other ways that crocodilians existed in the past that are gone now.

[little mauve]

Agreed, I miss the notosuchians

[little mauve]

Little armored herbivore crocs, so cool

[scenic flame]

I don't think I actually made that, if I did it was prob years ago and I don't remember, idk

[covert lintel]

if birds aren't reptiles, crocodilians aren't either

[white matrix]

Birds, and modern crocs are archosaurs according to Google. So yes, they are closely related to dinosaurs, and technically are dinosaurs. Which is very cool if you ask me 🙂

[little mauve]

Archosauria translates to "ruling reptiles". Dinos, birds, & crocs are all archosaurs

[tough parcel]

That's not how it works

Only birds are dinosaurs, crocodilians are not

[white matrix]

Oh my... I am not very understaanding of all that Oof, I really apologise!

[covert lintel]

basically dinosaurs and crocodilians are both archosaurs, birds are one of many types of theropod dinosaur
this message is technically now redundant but i'm sending it anyway

[cinder jewel]

Beautiful

[little mauve]

lol!! literally back-of-the-envelope diagram

[amber dune]

Are the dinosaurs in the game from Jurassic period likw cerato is?

[bright veldt]

Most are cretaceous, although there are other Jurassic dinosaurs. Allosaurus, Stegosaurus, kentrosaurus, and Camptosaurus are all from the same time as Cerato.

[covert lintel]

generally a lot of mesozoic-focused paleo media (yes, even JP) focuses more on the cretaceous than the jurassic, and the triassic is lucky to even be acknowledged

[west drum]

there’s a Jurassic dinosaur pack :) which includes allo, cera, stego, and something else, maybe kentro?

[amber dune]

Thank you paleo chat people 😼

[light osprey]

Wow, impeccable

[white matrix]

Ahh! I understand! Thank you a lot! ^^

[amber dune]

Y’all I’m a doing a informational project about Ceratosaurus for school any facts y’all wanna share so I can add?

[jagged trellis]

That it was(and still is) awesome

[bright veldt]

It is the only known theropod with osteoderms.

[little mauve]

Although on average it has smaller vertebrae & limb bones than those of Allosaurus, its teeth were larger

[amber dune]

That’s the boney like armor it had running down its back right?

[bright veldt]

It's unlikely to function like armor specifically given their position, but yes.

[amber dune]

Ahh alright then

[little mauve]

A very close relative called Genyodectes is found from the Early Cretaceous of South America. Ceratosaurus had slightly flexible skull bones, possibly to accommodate the stresses of struggling or large prey.

[iron halo]

Wait so are crocodiles more closely related to birds than they are to other reptiles?

[zenith timber]

yes

[iron halo]

Makes sense I suppose
I never really thought about that though

[bright veldt]

A crocodile is closer related to a robin than it is to a lizard.

[amber dune]

I finished the project YALL 😼

[tender gazelle]

Letsss goooo

[light osprey]

Damn looks fancy

[tender gazelle]

He's fun and a good addition

[white matrix]

I think Rex’s Epipostorbitals technically count

[bright veldt]

Technically

[pearl briar]

no, cera (likely) didn't get bullied or have a rival with allo iirc
they're (likely) seems to uhh
what can i say?
peacefully coexist with each other?
cmiiw

[stone plover]

i might be wrong but arent there preserved carnotaurus osteoderms?

[bright veldt]

In 2020 it was discovered that the osteoderms were actually just big feature scales.

[elfin pulsar]

Big feature scales?

[amber dune]

Oh didn’t they compete?

[stone plover]

gotcha! if you dont mind me asking whats the difference between the two?

[warm temple]

Prob have different niche in the environment

[amber dune]

Between allo and cerato?

[elfin pulsar]

I think they mean feature scales and osteoderms

[amber dune]

But at some point surely they met paths or something as food migrated for them?

[elfin pulsar]

Can’t imagine anything consistently happening out of that interaction, cerato would just keep moving

[woeful falcon]

They yell at each other then move away from one another assuming one isn't desperately hungry or provoked

[little mauve]

I don't think there's any reason to assume that. They probably predated on one another at different stages of growth if/when the opportunity presented itself

[amber dune]

True I could see that I was just thinking that they might’ve had some problems with territory maybe or going atfer the same prey

[little mauve]

niche differentiation doesn't mean they didn't interact, they very likely could have been hostile to one another

[pearl briar]

Allo & Cera Probably act like modern predators do today
Ignore one another because risk of injury

[amber dune]

Yeha I guess it easy to forget they are animals at the end of the day trying to survive

[woeful falcon]

I think ignore is being used where "avoid out of risk of injury" should be

[elfin pulsar]

I thought it was a given that they would go after younger versions of each other if they could lol

[bright veldt]

afaik both species had different environmental preferences, the morrison is a massive area. From what we know, Allosaurus generally preferred more open conditions while ceratosaurus and torvosaurus preferred riverside forests. Likely for the thick cover in cerato's case, and megalosaurs in general like torvosaurus really loved tropical forests and wetlands.

[little mauve]

Well non-fully grown individuals would be the bulk of the population in either case and therefore the bulk of the interactions going on

[woeful falcon]

Also ya I had also assumed we were talking two adults because why else this is a hypothetical

[elfin pulsar]

Me too, pointless not to be

[amber dune]

So it would be unlikely for them to come in contact basically and even if they did not much would happen

[tough parcel]

Tbh the issue is Allosaurus has such a stupid range in adult sizes

[bright veldt]

Allosaurus would dominate whenever the two came into conflict, although it probably wasn't terribly onesided, because most allosaurs known, while still larger than cerato, are close enough in size for cerato to stand a chance in a contest.

[little mauve]

They're asking about the actual environment & life patterns rather than a straight matchup

[bright veldt]

This. The largest allosaurus are nearly 3x larger than cerato, but there's a lot of mature individuals that are only, like 25% to 50% larger also. Allosaurus were weird like that.

[woeful falcon]

Right but

I feel like if they meant specifically if there were predator prey relationships between the two or implication of different growth stages that would have specified. But they talk about territory and going after the same prey items

[little mauve]

Well we have Ceratosaurus & Allosaurus from the same quarries, frequently, they did apparently overlap in territory and presumably prey as well

[bright veldt]

They did overlap in territory but it probably isn't as intense as typically thought. Did they compete? Yeah, they're large predatory theropods that overlapped somewhat in territory. There would've been conflict, but it probably wasn't particularly intense given different environmental preferences.

[little mauve]

With the cycles of droughts in the Morrison I expect it could get fairly intense at times

[woeful falcon]

I find that when people ask these kinda questions there's an image of "every encounter is a fight to the death" which, sometimes it might just be a screaming match between the two and one backs down

[compact leaf]

alternatively, they scream at each other and then both get trampled by one of the 10 sauropod species in the area at any given time

[woeful falcon]

Now that's the canon outcome

[amber dune]

Wouldn’t it also depend on how aggressive they could’ve been since some animals like to resource guard and will hurt or scare off the other animals?

[bright veldt]

It often depends on the context of said competition. When intense, like in the case of lions and hyenas, fights and injuries between the species are pretty common, although death much less so. Then you have like, wolves and bears, where they do have some overlap in prey but not too much, so outside of kill theft they often benefit each other ecologically instead.

[little mauve]

Of course, but the overt shyness and caution we see in mammalian predators shouldn't be assumed to be the rule in dinosaurs either. Reptile dominant food webs, particularly in harsh environments, like the one seen in the deep Outback are more or less "are you smaller than me? OK I'm eating you"

[woeful falcon]

On that same note, dinosaurs, and archosaurs in general, are in many ways not your run of the mill reptile

[little mauve]

much closer comparison than mammals by any stretch

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind that with the only modern megafaunal reptiles we have, crocodiles, species overlap and the conflict from it really varies depending on the species, and can often depend more on individual species territoriality than actually being in competition.

[woeful falcon]

Of course but you're playing with the unknown regardless, and the reptiles of then are occupying a variety of very different ecological positions than the ones today. And in the case of allosaurus and ceratosaurus unless its an exceptionally large allosaurus its not "I'm bigger than you I'm eating you" it's "you look as big as me"

[bright veldt]

IE Salties are very territorial with each other, and often means that freshies get displaced and/or eaten wherever they overlap despite not overlapping too much in niche as adults. Cuban Crocodiles are notoriously territorial and aggressive, so they often displace American crocodiles, despite them being way larger and more likely to win physical fights. Then you have american alligators and American crocodiles, where american alligators are so generalistic they don't really care about coexisting with similar species or each other.

[woeful falcon]

If the extant archosaurs are proof of anything its that you can't be so quick to generalize them. And crocodilian behavior is also something that stands to be understood perfectly

[bright veldt]

I just think it's interesting when the details of interspecific behavior dictates how they react with other species, rather than competition or predatory/defensive pressures.

[little mauve]

I'm basically just stating that inter-predator predation (is there a better term for this? lol) was likely a stronger force in the Mesozoic than in contemporary mammal-dominant ecosystems. Agreed on all the points about generalization

[bright veldt]

The reason why hippos are so aggressive for example is their territoriality. Hippos fight viciously with each other over territory, and that often bleeds over into them willing to attack basically anything by the water. While still capable of charging and murdering on land, it is nowhere to the same extent as when they're defending their waterfront.

[little mauve]

intraguild predation, that's it

[bright veldt]

Also true. This can be seen in some mammals too. Like leopards being known for hunting other smaller carnivores.

[woeful falcon]

I suppose that boils down to, do you think two predators meeting each other is immediately going into intraguild predation

[bright veldt]

Depends on the risk tbh. Unless it's a large allo I don't see it.

[little mauve]

I think if one is larger, hungry, and has the opportunity then sure

[cinder jewel]

I know we talked about mammal and reptile predatory competition as models, but do we have any examples of bird dominated ecosystems with competing predators? Places like New Zealand? Flight probably makes it not as useful of a comparison, but it'd still be interesting

[little mauve]

Southern Ocean perhaps? Would be interesting

Most bird dominated faunas on islands are super weird though, it's a tough comparison

[amber dune]

So we’re bugs much bigger back than, compared to todays bugs?

[west drum]

yes, there are a lot of insects back then that got… huge.

[amber dune]

What made them go much smaller then, cuz I know the trees must’ve played a big part but that couldn’t been the only thing I think?

[elfin pulsar]

Lower oxygen plays a part in that

[bright veldt]

Giant insects only really existed from the Carboniferous to Early Triassic. While oxygen does play a factor, it is often overstated. The influx of giant insects in the Carboniferous was due to them being the first truly terrestrial organisms, without much vertebrate competition, so they were in a prime position to get massive when the ideal hothouse habitat came around.

[elfin pulsar]

Makes sense

[frozen kindle]

This Dino would be so cool in path of titans.

[elfin pulsar]

Idk if this is a dumb question but did the morrison formation contain any large-ish hadrosaurs