Vague rules must be amended

[grand galleon]

[1/5]

I would like to bring attention to the following clause in the set of rules enforced on this server. At the time of writing this post, there are [8 rules](#information message), preceded by the following statement:

These rules are not exhaustive and may be subject to updates or changes based on the judgment of the server's moderators.

There is a big problem with that statement: players who volunteered to moderate this community space may interpret it as unlimited scope for decision-making. Some of them actually do.

This server's rules need reforms. I will start by proposing a set of actions meant to limit the power of moderators and prevent various arbitrary acts that violate the rights of the regular members. This is meant primarily for members of Sabers in charge of administering this Discord server, but it also acts as a set of guidelines for volunteer moderators. After that, I will describe an incident where a moderator relied on vague wording to go well beyond the scope defined by the rules in the information channel. This is something everyone should be aware of, especially the regular members of the server, since this is how your rights can be violated in the future.

[toxic tusk]

Hey! I'll get back to you in a bit, hold tight.

I do not know the answer to your question.

[grand galleon]

[2/5]

Suggested course of action

1. Reduce subjectivity in the rules as much as possible. Rely on objective definitions and reality. In cases where the rule leaves room for interpretation, strive to explain what it means with a more detailed explanation or examples of what is allowed and what is not. Absolutely no "the Earth is flat according to my point of view" type of argumentation. The Earth is not flat. Period.

2. Strive to reduce the scope of the rules. They shall not have vague wording.

3. If you are not sure that a rule will not be abused to censor those who disagree with the governing body or post something the governors dislike, consider simply not introducing it.

4. Adhere to the "Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" principle, which is a recognized legal maxim. For the members of this server, it means that no member can be persecuted for a rule that is not clearly stated. Any action, including deletion of the comments, must be based on a clearly written rule or can only be performed after amendments to the existing rules. The moderators acting as the government shall adhere to the inversion of this principle: "Everything which is not allowed is forbidden."

5. Users of the server must be informed of the amendments to the rules of the server. It can be achieved by making an announcement in the announcements channel and pinging everyone.

6. Amendments to the set of rules should take some time and be preceded by a discussion, in which every member of the server can participate and express their concerns.

7. Complete the clause "These rules are not exhaustive and may be subject to updates or changes" with the following phrase: "Moderators shall not enforce an upcoming rule until the set of existing rules is updated."

8. If the timestamp of the alleged rule violation precedes the timestamp when the rule was introduced or when the appropriate amendment to the rules took place, then it is not a rule violation.

[3/5]

9. Introduce a publicly visible moderation log. Which moderator took which action, when the action was taken, proof of the appropriate comment or action, in violations of which rule the appropriate comment or action was, and extra information about the decision that was made. This measure will be a deterrent to arbitrary decisions, and the governing body will not rely on excuses like, "Do I have to say this to every single person? I am tired of repeating myself."

10. Abuse of power in the governing body must result in consequences. Power-tripping once must result in at least a warning (if not a temporary suspension from the moderation duties). Repeated power-tripping must result in the moderator role being revoked (at least). If somebody was banned as a result of power-tripping, then the moderator(s) who took the action get a temporary mute or a temporary ban from the server. The duration of the punishment depends on the duration of the issued penalty. A wrongfully issued permanent ban can be equal to a mute/ban from the server for a year.

How vague wording enabled abuse of power

There was a discussion in the "community-help" forum initiated by me, which is now purged completely, with all comments of every single participant. I created a support ticket here, which was closed after a dispute with a volunteer. Judging from what I have observed, the way this system works is that when a ticket gets closed, the conversation that happened within the ticket becomes unavailable, so I cannot recite every single thing posted there. However, I asked why the whole topic was deleted: what rule exactly was used as a basis for the purge and why it couldn't have been just locked in case it went too off-topic.

[4/5]

I will summarize the moderator's position (paraphrased, not the exact words):

1. I do not have to follow the rules strictly. This particular clause about "not exhaustive rules" and "moderator's judgment" allows me to go beyond the scope of the explicitly written rules.

2. I, in my sole discretion, get to decide what does not have a reason to exist and what does. I can rely on subjective reasons to do so, and I can choose the action I deem appropriate.

3. A player whose comments I deemed undesirable joined this discussion and used it as a springboard for off-topic negativity, so that's one of the reasons I purged the whole topic.

4. Too many off-topic comments piled up in that forum discussion. I deleted the whole topic instead of locking it so that people won't bring up those comments in the future and justify them to post more off-topic comments.

5. I am a simple man. I won't be explaining to you why I couldn't just have taken action against off-topic comments early or cleaned up just off-topic comments that added nothing to the discussion. I will just state that "I have already explained everything to you."

6. Why delete the whole topic? I don't think that it has a reason to exist. Everything has been said already, and it has outlived its purpose.

7. You are saying that others may have put time and effort into writing those comments. It means nothing to me. Posting stuff doesn't mean that it won't get deleted.

I appreciate that this moderator didn't try to hide behind Saber Interactive during our conversation, saying things like "we don't do anything without Saber's approval" or "this is what we are told to do by the chiefs, we are just pawns." Yes, he admitted that he censored my topic for subjective reasons, and he admitted (implicitly, though) that the presence of a user he had problems with served as a very convenient excuse to nuke the whole topic.

[5/5]

This is abuse of power, plain and simple. I have suggested that set of amendments to the rules so that such unfortunate incidents do not happen again. It will benefit the server in the long run because it is the most censored general-purpose community hub at the moment.

[faint hare]

You're a clown, bro

[rich cave]

He's pissed off cuz his post got taken down "Another paywall"

[limber dawn]

I don't want to touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, but as for the sanctions that happened in the "paywall thread" which is what is being referred to as the "moderation actions / rules that need to be amended":

You can argue about changing many things about this game, but end of the day it will be taken as suggestion and that's it. You accept that its put in the inbox of suggestions and hope for the best instead of get radical about it. 🙂

I will not reply if my comment is responded to because I love my life and pet my cats and watch my fish.

[slow torrent]

Someone should fill this post with millions of rules taken from AI

[twin steppe]

I hope one day İcebeam eat perma ban.

[grand galleon]

I will not reply if my comment is responded to because I love my life and pet my cats and watch my fish.

There is no need to be scared of me. I am not some bogeyman who will make your life a living hell just because you crossed paths with me. You don't have to reply, but I will address your comment regardless for any concerned reader.

You can argue about changing many things about this game, but end of the day it will be taken as suggestion and that's it. You accept that its put in the inbox of suggestions and hope for the best instead of get radical about it. 🙂

It substitutes the thesis in a way that the comment seems reasonable and well-intentioned, but it ignores the elephant in the room. The problem is much broader than me personally being frustrated with my topic being purged. This act is a direct result of unchecked power granted to volunteers moderating this forum. There was no good reason why that topic had to be deleted entirely, with all of its comments. The body of it was not breaking any rules. Neither were many of its comments, especially the ones with my counterarguments. It was censored for subjective reasons, and it was quite a radical act, if we were to argue who engages in radical behavior and who does not. Why is the radicality of the topic's total wipeout not questioned?

It is never good to have a system where the power of the management is completely unchecked, and it is not the first time users have had their content deleted for unexplained reasons in this community hub.

[grand galleon]

Let's imagine for a moment that I become an evil moderator of this server. I set aside my moral values and just do what I want, as if the rights and interests of other people didn't matter to me one bit.

I see [this topic about the new class](#1326397963219767346 message) and purge it. Why? I will use my subjective judgment. Spelling mistakes, poor word choice, and poor grammar indicate that it's a low-effort post. The author admitted to using AI to make his post, which to me, an evil moderator, is an aggravating factor in spamming this community with low-effort content. He has also repeatedly pinged a member of Saber, which may be taken by the pinged moderator and other members as harassment here. Don't you know that you can use the official support website if you want to push your idea so much? Don't ping the Saber staff here!

What if I were to judge the idea on its own merits? The idea itself is poorly thought-out for many reasons. This thread has attracted many low-effort comments of no substance. They mostly support the OP, but for that reason? People want a new class, but they don't know what they want exactly. They are not concerned with how resource-intensive that task is and with the fact that it can end up worse than nothing.

Since Saber's streamer let us know that this request and its popularity have been acknowledged, I conclude that this topic no longer has a reason to exist: I think that enough has been said, and it has outlived its purpose. So I delete it entirely. Why purge instead of just locking? As I said, the idea is bad, and I don't want people to use that low-effort post and low-effort comments to justify posting new low-effort stuff. Besides, if you want your idea to be noticed that badly, use the support platform, not this Discord server.

This is what the rules and accepted moderation practices would let me do here! Would you prefer it that way, or would you be saying that the moderation here needs to be kept in check if I were the one to dish out abuse? Alright, suppose you are defending the current moderators and hate me, thinking that they can do no wrong and I deserve everything that happened, but would you defend me if I was in charge of moderating this server and destroyed the content of other people just because I felt it had no reason to exist? Think about it.

This is not to say that I would moderate like that: I wouldn't. I respect freedom of speech, especially when it comes to complaints meant to shape the product into something better than it is. I know first-hand how frustrating it is when someone destroys the work you put time and effort in, so I strive not to do it to others. I have been on the receiving end of "subjective judgement" of "authorities" in video gaming communities, too, and I know how detrimental subjectivity is to enacting justice.

For example, I got banned from community-run servers in other games because some whistleblower spread the word that I was a cheater, and the admins of the server took it quite seriously, banning me without any proof. I was getting democratically removed from servers (Source Engine's "votekick" and "voteban" features) over cheating accusations, of which there was no proof. I know that the public opinion can be wrong, so I wouldn't bend to brigading attempts, saying stuff like, "uh-oh, the majority of the people think this way, so they must be right."

[grand galleon]

I thought you blocked me so that you couldn't see my posts, so why are you still replying? Since you've done this, do you mind elaborating on why you want to permanently exclude me from the community and why subjective feelings are more important to you than human rights, such as free speech?

[twin steppe]

Community Chanel show members name

and I don't even read your messages to

(Just read one messege)

You're not as smart as I thought, good thing I blocked you

[grand galleon]

As expected, posts of no substance, just personal attacks because you happen to hate me. Cry me a river

[tropic tide]

https://tenor.com/view/laugh-gif-20137505

[past hamlet]

What the hell did I even read

[slow torrent]

How about u give the feed with msg of no more than 4 lines? If u want to look at it "intellectually" as you have made clear more than once that you like to believe that "u are"
u can think of it as "masterfully synthesizing your ideas"

That way you'll get along better with everyone!

[silver garden]

https://tenor.com/view/omori-confused-kel-my-brain-hurts-math-gif-2257560751769029371

[grand galleon]

Then it is going to be a comment lacking substance, which will:

1. Cause people to ask clarifying questions along the lines of, "What do you mean by X and Y?" or "Could you explain to us why you think that way?" I will have to provide an in-depth explanation anyway, so might as well do it right from the start.

2. Give an excuse to naysayers to claim that my posts and comments are a "ragebait" kind of content, because they are short, non-committal, and do nothing but provoke a reaction from the members of the server. I have already been falsely accused of trolling and ragebaiting. However, since I clearly put effort into clarifying my position at length and demonstrate that I am 100% serious about my suggestions, the blame is on the naysayers, not me.

3. Invite even more misinterpretations of my post, which will result in even more false accusations and personal attacks.

[slow torrent]

I read part of what you said to write this

"@angelika The rules need to be replaced with something more objective. I feel that the moderators interpret free judgment as infinite power..."
(And here you put a collection of photos of msg that look really bad without context)

And then a disclaimer, something saying that the problem isn't the moderator's intention but the lack of guidelines that makes their job difficult, or something like that so you don't seem like a spiteful crybaby like now

---

And now my response to your post, bc I had to read it to try to help you as a human being

First, Saber needs to have no relationship with moderation, for legal reasons, exhaustive rules will never be able to cover all possible problems

---

No message you write is meaningful if it has no influence on anyone, in fact, the purpose of a forum, of an incomplete answer, is to invite people to give their opinion

A single drop doesn't make an ocean, and believe me, it doesn't create new rules either

I don't agree with anything you said; I'm simply trying to help you minimize the harm you cause yourself during your experience here, because I've been in your shoes

Uff my finger hurts

[grand galleon]

A few days ago, you asked me to read [copypasta posted by another user](#💬general-off-topic-chat message) in the "general-chat" channel in an attempt to mock my "walls of text." Most likely, the post was composed by an AI. While it has a few questionable and contradictory statements, it also has a noteworthy paragraph about honesty, integrity, and trust. Read it, because the AI made good points there.

This particular post is a set of amendments to the rules and the existing practices of their application. They are meant to be done in the name of exactly those values: honesty and integrity. A transparent moderation log would do exactly what the AI said: it would "build trust, and trust is the foundation of all meaningful relationships." Countries that have the best track record on human rights adhere to these principles. If it works at this high level of human organization, it will certainly work in this community about a video game.

[grand galleon]

Honesty and integrity are qualities you didn't have back when you joined this server, and you don't have them now, either. If you were looking to argue in good faith, you would read my post and go over the points I presented in their exact form, instead of coming up with fantasies about something that never happened, like this one:

"@angelika The rules need to be replaced with something more objective. I feel that the moderators interpret free judgment as infinite power..." (And here you put a collection of photos of msg that look really bad without context)

You could have said something along the lines of, "I am against the 'Everything which is not forbidden is allowed' principle you suggest because [insert reason A] and [insert reason B]." You could have put effort into clarifying your position like I did. However, you didn't.

And now my response to your post, bc I had to read it to try to help you as a human being

I don't agree with anything you said; I'm simply trying to help you minimize the harm you cause yourself during your experience here, because I've been in your shoes

Cut this pretentious nonsense. You are simply using this post as an opportunity to insult me, which is made clear with this particular unprovoked, unwarranted ad hominem:

so you don't seem like a spiteful crybaby like now

In the territory of this Discord server, you have tried to insult me more than anyone else. At some point in the past, you refused to address my questions, saying that I don't deserve to be taken seriously. You never answer my clarifying questions, yet you never miss an opportunity to insult me.

[grand galleon]

If you have some personal issues with me, use the personal message functionality instead of derailing a serious topic with your ad hominems and other nonsense of very little informational load that simply wastes screen space.

[slow torrent]

At least nobody's going to say i don't try it

[teal tusk]

Just a quick request for mods here to ban IceBeam125 permanently. Don't engage with him at all, he is constantly trolling and harassing by sending unsolicited DMs to provoke me. I have ignored and blocked all his posts. Reading his old threads on here pretty much suggests his intention to troll, manipulate and gaslight. Man has no substance, job, life or even dignity.

[rich cave]

No mods following this post. You can take it to DM, instead of creating a fuss here. Only last week a post got nuked when it got out of control

[grand galleon]

Sciblob, is that you?

[grand galleon]

Since this user is blatantly lying in order to create a stain on my reputation, I feel like I need to clarify that there was absolutely no "harassment" in DMs. I reached out to him because the topic where I left a reply to his statements got purged, and he could no longer see that. Thus, I sent him a direct message to clear things up.

[rich cave]

Bro I take no sides, that's why I told him to reach out to mods in DM

[grand galleon]

Here is the context for the "pathetic excuse" phrase:

[rich cave]

So you're gathering people against Friction

[grand galleon]

Friction wasn't the one who deleted that particular topic and whom I mentioned in this message. No, I am not "gathering people against someone," just telling the "truth," as any "honest" man with any "integrity" to them would (that's a reference to AI essays I was told to read)

[rich cave]

First of all it's a simple post about you saying there should no dlc or perks should be blocked behind that. Yes, some agreed and some doesn't agree with you and it made a whole 300 reply convo ended up accusing each other with insults and false accusation
But we all can agree that Saber doesn't care abt this game or the players no more, no one is against that. You being frustated and creating a new post calling to amend rules for mods, is also a useless post cuz they won't even see it.
You should just move on from that post instead of being obsessed with a broken game.

Saber would be laughing around in the corner that's what they'll do if they see us fighting over a game

[grand galleon]

You being frustated and creating a new post calling to amend rules for mods, is also a useless post cuz they won't even see it.

Yes, they see it. SaberAngelika has read it

[rich cave]

that's not my point

[grand galleon]

You should just move on from that post instead of being obsessed with a broken game.

If you don't have anything smart to say, don't say anything at all, because you are polluting this topic with ad hominems that have nothing to do with the body of the post.

[rich cave]

I'm on your side

[grand galleon]

As I said, keeping it simple for you: [Do you have a problem with me?] -> [Send a direct message instead of polluting the topic]

[grand galleon]

If you were on my side, you would be chasing the truth and addressing the points I made instead of attacking me personally. Stop lying to yourself

[rich cave]

I don't have a problem with you, come play this dead game with me

[rich cave]

You're telling me to chase the truth, I'm telling you to face reality

[grand galleon]

People being thick are the biggest reason why I have to explain trivial stuff in the span of hundreds of comments

[rich cave]

This is just a game made by a corporate it's a broken one actually. It doesn't deserve the attention we're giving to it

[grand galleon]

Then why are you here? Do you even believe what you are saying? Please, stop littering this topic with your bullshit

[grand galleon]

Take your own advice and reach out to me in DMs if you have a problem with me, I am not someone who'd report for your harassment even if you insult me there

[rich cave]

what's my bullshit exactly? telling you to stop obsessing with this game and move on?

go on explain it to me in your long essay mode

Why if someone tells you to get along with us, you're seeing them as hostile?

[grand galleon]

That, too, because your comments serve no other purpose than shifting attention from the problem of vague rules and abuse of power, which are objective and apply to every honest member of this server, to "me personally being obsessed with something," as if stopping to talk about the issue would make the issue disappear. What personal benefit do you extract from shouting down people who talk about important things?

[grand galleon]

Speak for yourself, no need to hide behind "we"

[rich cave]

you think you're the only victim here?

Well I was timed out for a week for talking in group search

It's my first timeout and I got a week for that

[grand galleon]

Then why exactly are you so hell-bent against my suggestion that would protect your rights as well?

[rich cave]

Do you see me fighting with friction? no
I made my apology and appealed him to remove it and he did

Later we all lived happily

unlike you being obsessed and losing peace over a game

[grand galleon]

There is one simple thing in that case: do nothing, which is the path of the least resistance. No, you have do something, and that something is shouting down someone who'd protect your rights. You are not a man of honesty and integrity

[rich cave]

"Get over it" it's not worth for your personal life

[grand galleon]

Yes, because sweeping problems under the rug and being submissive has proven to advance things so well. Get lost

[rich cave]

I did what I had to do and it benefitted for both of us

[grand galleon]

I will honestly tell you that I am getting tired of your nonsense. Send me a direct message and stop derailing a serious discussion.

Literally all chaff and no wheat

[rich cave]

I broke a rule and I did my time, what's submissive abt it?
And you think you're not submissive now to saber?

They own you now

[grand galleon]

If only you were so vocal about people who wronged you as you are about someone who does the right thing, even when that's inconvenient (quoting the AI essay I was told to read again)

[rich cave]

Thing is I know which matters are worth fighting for and which doesn't

[silver garden]

Bro if you got problem with @grand galleon then just block him and don't reply, just saying as a suggestion

[rich cave]

Fix it and you'll fix ur life

[silver garden]

Hi @grand galleon I followed this community post and you have a good point, regarding it i would like to know if you were there how could you improve it ??

[rich cave]

Some people love to spread rumours abt others

[grand galleon]

Improve what? I have suggested a course of action that can be taken to solve the problem with abuse of power and arbitrary rule application in the post itself, which consists of 5 messages. To highlight the most important suggestions, though:

1. Rules that are not stated explicitly shall not be enforced. No one should receive any punishment for breaking a rule that they could not familiarize themselves with prior to posting.
2. Rules should rely on objective definitions rather than subjective judgment.
3. If the rules are to be amended, it must not happen instantly. Users of this server must be made aware of the amendments. It must be allowed to discuss them before they take place.
4. No reverse rule application. If the rule was introduced after the alleged violation, then it is not a violation.
5. Public moderation log, so that every member of the server can see whether a certain penalty was fair or not. It is a feedback mechanism and a way to keep the power in check.

[rich cave]

Told ya Icebeam is changing

It's so cute seeing how short he described himself

[slow torrent]

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse

[grand galleon]

What point are you trying to make?

[slow torrent]

Are you familiar with other servers or is this your only server?

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse, not here, not on any server, and not under the laws of any country

Why? Because people lie, that simple

[grand galleon]

Ignorance of what rules exactly? That's the whole point of my suggestion: rules that are not stated explicitly shall not be enforced

[slow torrent]

It's common sense, my friend. If we were talking normally, nobody would say anything to you

[grand galleon]

I am not denying that people can lie, including those in positions of power, which is why I suggested a public moderation log

[slow torrent]

You know that flooding is against the rules, right? No matter how well intentioned your words are, it's difficult to read other conversations when you're involved

[grand galleon]

There is no objective definition of "common sense." It is exactly the kind of vague wording that shall be avoided at all costs.

[rich cave]

I support public moderation log too

It's in real life, why not here

[grand galleon]

A long discussion contained within its own topic is not an act of flooding

[slow torrent]

Even someone completely unfamiliar with society would be able to grasp the idea of common sense, to observe how people behave in order to know what is normal, even chimpanzees are capable

[grand galleon]

Even more nonsense instead of addressing my points

[grand galleon]

In the United States, if you don't tip at a restaurant, café, or other similar places, people will look down on you. Some waiters or cooks may be so offended by it that they will chase you down the street, wondering how you could show so much disrespect by not giving them their tip.

In Norway or Sweden, tipping culture is different, and it's not uncommon for service workers to refuse tips on the grounds of "we are not poor, we get paid well."

In both countires, that's "common sense." But these are two different types of common sense with no absolute definitions

[slow torrent]

The difference is that you can and shouldn't leave a tip if you don't want to, and you can ask for state support if they try to force you to

Don't confuse rules with customs

[grand galleon]

The point is that rules must rely on objective and universal terms rather than unexplained subjective interpretstions of things

[slow torrent]

For example, here we have a custom of teasing each other in a friendly way, but there are rules against harassment

The only limits are common sense, not saying something that will truly offend your friend

And if you did happen to do it, know when to back down and change course

[grand galleon]

Rules about harassment are a topic for a whole separate discussion. There is a lot of subjectivity to it. For example, I do not see "unsolicited pings" sent to myself a form of harassment, unless they are done many times within a short window of time with a deliberate purpose to annoy me, but, apparently, pinging someone once or twice is an offense in the territory of this Discord server.

You shouldn't have to play the guessing game. It must be explicitly stated in the rules

[slow torrent]

If your argument is that the rules are open to the mods' interpretation, that may be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. As I said, a fixed set of rules is incapable of mod all the scenarios

I'll give you an example of when that has benefited you

Recently, when you wrote in general chat, since we normally use that space and you covered it all up, many of us made jokes about it, but you didn't like it and the mod saw that

and now we're all warned about not bothering you directly