#Paywalled weapon perks: it's time to stop

140 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

crimson rivet
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(1/8)

It is a long post, and I have to split my message into multiple segments because of the character limit.

If you agree with the points made in this post, upvote it, share your opinion in the comment section, and discuss it with people concerned about the issue and Saber representatives. Saber Interactive is capable of changing the course when an issue gets traction, so let's bring it to Saber's attention.

Disambiguation:

  • 1 document = 3 document pieces.
  • 2 documents = 6 document pieces.
  • 3 documents = 9 document pieces.
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(2/8)

The solution

This is a long post, so I will start with the solution immediately. After that, I will clarify what the problem is.

Stage 1:

  1. Change the unlock condition for the "Lightweight Drum" perk of the new Defensive SMG as soon as possible. Replace it with a requirement to collect any number of documents for the first 4 episodes. Any objective which still remains unused should be fine. For example, "collect 1 document for the New York 1 chapter" is currently unused. Alternatively, charge 100 Challenge (Blue) coins for the perk or give it away for free.

  2. Change the unlock condition for the "Unloading Vest" of the new Defensive SMG as soon as possible. Replace it with a requirement to complete any unused mission from the first 4 episodes on Extreme difficulty. For example, "complete the New York 3 chapter on Extreme" is currently unused. Alternatively, pick an unused document-related objective for the first 4 episodes, charge 500 Credits (yellow coins) for the perk, or give it away for free.

A table with used and unused objectives related to campaign missions can be checked here. Open it in a new tab and zoom in to see the details clearly. Credit goes to Bronzebreak for compiling this list.

Stage 2:

Change the unlock condition for the following perks:

  • Classic Battle Rifle: Sound Body.
  • SMG: Plague Doctor.
  • Repeating Rifle: Electro Shot.

"Change" in this context has almost the same meaning as in the previous stage:

  • Replace it with a requirement to collect any number of documents for the first 4 episodes.
  • Replace it with a requirement to complete any unused mission from the 4 episodes on Extreme difficulty.
  • Any unused objective from the first 4 episodes should be fine.
  • Alternatively, charge from 100 to 500 Challenge (Blue) coins for the perk or give it away for free.
Imgur
Imgur

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

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(3/8)

Stage 3:

Change the unlock condition for the Special SMG's "Make Do and Mend" perk. If it is a mission-related objective, any mission in Moscow suits lore-wise, and this is the 3rd episode available for everyone. 1 document for the 2nd or 4th mission and an Extreme difficulty accomplishment for any of the first 3 missions are currently unused, but many others can be chosen, too. Giving it away for free or charging from 100 to 500 Blue Coins for it is also an option. The former option is better because players will not feel that a perk they might have unlocked ages ago is being taken away from them and locked again.

Stage 4:

Offer a one-time unconditional compensation for every single player and bundle it with an upcoming patch. 60,000 Credits (yellow coins) and 2000 Challenge (Blue) coins. Do not forget to take the buffer overflow into account in case the player has already reached the limit. The grind in this game burns the in-game coins quickly anyway.

Stage 5:

Consider adding all melee weapons to the base edition of the game, not just Aftermath.

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(4/8)

New perks gated behind a paywall

The recent "Sin City Apocalypse" update introduced a new weapon, the Defender SMG (WASP-180). It has 2 perks that are locked behind objectives related to the DLC episodes not included in the "Aftermath" edition of the game:

  • Lightweight Drum: collect 9 document pieces for Vegas 1 (A Bad Hand). Gets unlocked when the weapon's level is 6.
  • Unloading Vest: complete Phoenix 2 (Trapped in Tempe) on Extreme difficulty. Gets unlocked when the weapon's level is 14.

Owners of the base game, the GOTY edition, and the "Aftermath" edition will not be able to complete those objectives on their own unless they purchase the DLCs with those 2 episodes. Players who own every single DLC for the game but not the latest episode about Las Vegas will not be able to use the "Lightweight Drum" perk. Even though the weapon itself is not the best in the game, those perks make it stronger in its weak areas and give the DLC owners an unfair edge on those who do not happen to own those DLCs. Additionally, "Unloading Vest" is one of the best common perks one could take for this weapon simply because many other options underperform.

Previous paywalled perks

This is not the first time it has happened, though. A few other perks locked behind the Phoenix DLC were added to the game this year:

  • [Classic Battle Rifle] Sound Body: collect 9 document pieces for Phoenix 3 (Fighting for Home).
  • [SMG] Plague Doctor: collect 9 document pieces for Phoenix 1 (The Low Road).
  • [Repeating Rifle] Electro Shot: collect 9 document pieces for Phoenix 2 (Trapped in Tempe).

The Repeating Rifle gets the ability to stun Special Zombies essentially on demand, becoming one of the 2 best perks in the unique slot, and the TMP5 SMG gets to deal 30% more damage under certain conditions when the weak side of SMG weapons in this game is low damage.

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(5/8)

Locking performance-enhancing mods for weapons behind paid DLCs is a slippery slope. It is unfair to owners of the previous editions of the game, and it makes the playing field uneven for various challenges the community itself or Saber community managers will come up with in the future. If players say nothing regarding such design decisions, the trend will continue.

Imagine if the masking perks for Senjata PDW or Pistol were locked behind a paid DLC. It sounds much more serious now, doesn't it? What about the Assault Shotgun's 30-round magazine or the Assault Rifle's increased damage to highlighted targets (the "Death Mark" perk) being locked behind some DLC hypothetically released in the past? What if it was the Combat Shotgun's "Eagle Eye" META perk? What about the semi-auto mode for the Classic Battle Rifle that gives a Fixer with "Power Shot" an extra weapon with unconditional +2 penetration, explosive ammo or not?

It is already bad enough that the only ability in the game to repair a broken Virus Sample ("Make Do and Mend" for the Special SMG) is locked behind the Kamchatka episode that comes with the "Aftermath" edition of the game. There is no need to have more of such perks.

It is also worth noting that such practices will encourage the usage of custom save files where all documents are unlocked.

Of course, it is true that owners of the "Aftermath" edition get an edge on owners of the GOTY edition and the base game in other ways, too. Better melee weapons with game-changing abilities, the first-person mode that makes it possible to skip the rolling animation, perks locked behind objectives for episodes #5-8, but that's a story for another day. I do not consider it fair, either, but there was hope that it would end with the "Aftermath" edition. Not any longer.

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(6/8)

The first 4 episodes have enough objectives to choose from

It is totally not a case of the game's developers running out of objectives related to previous episodes. Look at the following spreadsheet made by Bronzebreak.

It clearly shows that no weapon perk in the game requires you to collect exactly 2 documents (6 document pieces) for any chapter (mission). Take a closer look now: no perk in the game requires you to collect exactly 1 document for New York 1 (Descent) or to complete New York 3 (Hell and High Water) on Extreme difficulty. All 4 standard episodes in the game have blank spots related to documents or Extreme difficulty: 4, 2, 5, and 3 respectively. 14 free objectives total for owners of the base game. The Aftermath episodes have 8 free objectives total (3, 1, and 4). 14 + 8 = 22 free objectives for owners of the Aftermath edition.

Add the "collect 2 documents" objective to those numbers, and they become even bigger:

  • 4 + 3 + 4 + 3 = 14 (for the first 4 episodes)
  • 3 + 3 + 3 = 9 (for the Aftermath episodes)
  • 14 + 14 = 28 (for owners of the base game)
  • 22 + 14 + 9 = 45 (for owners of the Aftermath edition)

There are at least 28 mission-related objectives to work with and even 45 with the Aftermath missions.

We are absolutely not running out of free space, and it should be possible to assign one objective to multiple perks anyway. It is also possible to charge the Credits (yellow coins) or Challenge (blue) coins for perks. It is possible to simply not lock the perks behind anything, too. The Repeating rifle has 5 free perks at the moment, only locked behind the level requirements.

Imgur
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(7/8)

Examples of unfair and fair rewards

Unfair:

  • Defensive SMG, the "Lightweight Drum" perk. It has actual gameplay effects and is only available for owners of the paid "Sin City Apocalypse Episode" DLC. Players who own every other DLC except this one are left behind.
  • Repeating Rifle, the "Electro Shot" perk. It has actual gameplay effects and is only available for owners of the paid "Valley of the Zeke Episode" DLC. Do you own the Aftermath edition? Do you own the base game and the DLC with the episode in Las Vegas but not Aftermath? Have you grabbed the GOTY edition during a giveaway a few years ago? You are left behind.
  • Special SMG, the "Make Do and Mend" perk. Despite the gun being suboptimal in many ways, that particular perk makes it worth using at least as a throwaway weapon. Do you own the base game with the new episodes in Arizona and Las Vegas but not the Aftermath edition? You are left behind.
  • The "Overman" portrait frame. Do you own the Aftermath edition but not the "Valley of the Zeke Episode" DLC? You are left behind because completing all missions of the Arizona campaign on Extreme is mandatory for that. Have you purchased the new Vegas DLC? You still won't get it. Even though this frame is a purely cosmetic accessory, it's not fair to players who have completed all previous episodes on Extreme but haven't got the Arizona episode which is not included in other previous editions.
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(8/8)

Fair:

  • Sniper Rifle: the "Headhunter" perk. Requires completing only the first 4 episodes on Extreme difficulty. It is fair because the unlock condition can be met by owners of all editions of the game.
  • Combat Shotgun, the "Eagle Eye" perk. Owners of every edition can reach the prestige rank 2 for the Hellraiser class.
  • Assault Rifle, the "Death Mark" perk. Everyone is in a position to spend 100 Challenge (blue) coins even if they don't play the game much, and it is not a huge number.
  • Classic Battle Rifle, the "Bounty Hunter" perk. Owners of all editions should be able to collect 1 document for the 2nd mission in Jerusalem (please correct me if I am wrong here and if owners of the base game cannot collect documents for some reason).
  • The "Zach, what have you done?" portrait frame. Even though it is available only for owners of the paid "Valley of the Zeke Episode" DLC, it is a purely cosmetic accessory, and its requirement is tied strictly to the objective within the bounds of that DLC.
  • The "Jackpot" portrait frame: same as above.
late moat
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bro so mad about 1 gun he wrote an entire book nerd

blazing spire
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They're released inline with new content, at one point all of the perks etc were for the base edition of the game/aftermath - there's been a trend for a while where they'll add an incentive to play the new content... how is it a problem?

The perks don't even change the game in any significant way

crimson rivet
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@blazing spire

how is it a problem?

I put a lot of effort into addressing such questions before they are asked in my post, please read all parts of it and ask questions if you have misunderstood something.

crimson rivet
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The bottom line is: paid cosmetics are fine, paid new episodes are fine since the developer has chosen not to pursue the lootbox route with randomized rewards (although this approach has drawbacks, too), but paywalled weapon perks and other gameplay-affecting features are not. The playing field becomes uneven, and owners of other editions and DLCs are left behind.

mint condor
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Just buy the dlc. They have so many free updates, cant expect everything to be free

bold pond
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I mean, this isn't even a competitive game. Most of example aren't even a strong perk to locked behind DLC. (Only electro shot is counted as "strong", but still you have hand dexterity, which can be situationally better option)

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Locking "all episodes clear" achievement, Overman, behind DLC is fair and most of on-going coop game does same thing. Ngl, I'm surprised at they don't do the same thing to skull sniper skin.

wise harness
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It's a pity that you will never get a response for writing such a long feedback with such care. I hate the developers of wwz very much since I played this game. I have played for 7000 hours and gave countless reports, but I haven't seen them in an update. They won't adopt players' ideas. I hate that no game has appeared to replace wwz for so many years, until the appearance of Killing Floor 3. The production level of Killing Floor 3 is enough to pre-order without hesitation. I only spend money on developers who are willing to listen to players' voices, instead of spending $9.99 to buy a piece of shitty, low-quality garbage DLC.

mint condor
spare tulip
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I find the document collection itself to be a less than enjoyable element and have just sent feedback to Saber. (Including the same opinion as IceBeam's assertion.)

late moat
late moat
# crimson rivet The bottom line is: paid cosmetics are fine, paid new episodes are fine since th...

The perks aren't paywalled. The game has evolved past the base game that released years ago. It is still 100% playable if you chose to never buy a single thing. It is even playable at the highest level of skill. The perks that require DLC aren't OP and aren't going to sway the game in your favor any more than other perks will. As others have already commented, you can't expect every update to be free... What you're doing is making a mountain out of a molehill.

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@spare tulip clown

crimson rivet
# mint condor Just buy the dlc. They have so many free updates, cant expect everything to be f...

This post is not about my subjective needs, you don't need to tell me to "just buy the DLC." You are also missing my points by a wide margin. Cosmetics and paid episodes have already brought them money, there is no need to lock weapon perks with gameplay effects behind a paywall in addition to that. A better solution exists. There are 28 mission-related objectives from the first 4 episodes that have never been used. It is also possible to charge yellow coins, blue coins, or give the perks away for free (the Repeating Rifle already has 5 free perks for some reason).

crimson rivet
# bold pond I mean, this isn't even a competitive game. Most of example aren't even a strong...

As I said to another player who responded here, I put a lot of effort into pre-emptively addressing such statements in my post. To answer your question, I will need to repeat the points that have already been made, which will inflate the length of my response for no good reason. Look at part 5 of my post that starts with "Locking performance-enhancing mods..." It explicitly mentions challenges organized by the community or Saber.

I mean, this isn't even a competitive game.

This is an excuse, not a reason, and quite a fallacious one. First of all, the definitions of "paywall" and "pay to win" do not specify that the game must be competitive. Secondly, Saber has already organized official challenges (they were flawed, but the point still stands). Even with no official challenges, there is a speedrunning hub for campaigns. Even if there was no speedrunning hub, the concept of an even playing field would still matter. It is unfair when players who invested more money in the game get an edge on players who invested less.

You might argue that those perks are not that significant now, but developers can start introducing bigger advantages later if players tolerate small advantages now. Imagine if the masking perks for Senjata PDW or Pistol were locked behind a paid DLC. It sounds much more serious now, doesn't it? It's already bad that the only ability to repair a broken Virus Sample in the game is locked behind the Aftermath DLC. Do you want to see more of that?

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Locking "all episodes clear" achievement, Overman, behind DLC is fair and most of on-going coop game does same thing.

In Back 4 Blood, the ZWAT skins are still locked behind the first 4 acts, even though there are paid post-release acts in that game. 3 characters with strong abilities are locked behind a paywall, which is disgusting, but this will never be changed because the game stopped receiving updates; it's a story for a different day. Also, if company X engages in some unfair practice, it doesn't mean that company Y should be doing the same. Another user mentioned Killing Floor here. In Killing Floor 2, it started small, with the Zweihander sword that was thought to be an off-META gimmick until it was proved otherwise, continued with the Road Redeemer, which was essentially an upgraded Katana, and then the infamous paid weapon DLCs followed. $9.99 per weapon, and some bundles sell 2 weapons for $14.99 total. There are a couple of bundles that include more weapons, sold for less than the total price of all those weapons would be if they were sold individually. One bundle is sold for $19.99, and the other one is sold for $29.99. The price of the base game is $29.99.

I don't want to see anything like that in WWZ. It can start small, but it can snowball quickly from that point.

crimson rivet
# late moat The perks aren't paywalled. The game has evolved past the base game that release...

The perks aren't paywalled.

The 2 episode-related DLC packs are paywalled. To unlock the perks, you need to collect documents for missions bundled with those DLCs. You can only play the missions without depending on others if you purchase those DLCs. Thus, the perks are paywalled.

It is still 100% playable if you chose to never buy a single thing. It is even playable at the highest level of skill. The perks that require DLC aren't OP and aren't going to sway the game in your favor any more than other perks will.

This is quite a short-sighted point to make. An advantage, no matter how small, is still an advantage, and it can make a difference in tight situations. Even 1 extra second gained from a faster animation can turn the tides. One Bull or Infector electrocuted at the right moment while the player has no room to dodge can be a difference between a wipeout and a successfully completed portion of the mission.

As others have already commented, you can't expect every update to be free...

As I have already stated, money is already getting extracted from the new paid episodes and cosmetic DLCs. There is no need to lock weapon perks with gameplay effects behind documents for missions from paid DLCs. 28 mission-related objectives from the first 4 episodes are still unused, and everyone owns them.

What you're doing is making a mountain out of a molehill.

You are finding excuses as to why the game should have paywalled gameplay effects and leave players behind if they don't own the latest paid content. There are no reasons listed for that.

crimson rivet
# wise harness It's a pity that you will never get a response for writing such a long feedback ...

I reported bugs, problems, and typos, and have seen at least some of them fixed, so there is hope. Regarding the Killing Floor series, I have played both Killing Floor games more than any other PvE game. I can assure you that Tripwire Interactive (TWI) now is not what it once was.

They have been ignoring the feedback they don't happen to like for a long time, and if they do listen, they favor the feedback of casuals or minorities, going as far as to say that they don't balance the game around "elitists" or "CD players." John Gibson, the founder of TWI, the person who helped Alex Quick turn his mod into a standalone game and who is responsible for a great deal of programming in both KF 1 and KF 2, was kicked out of the company over a scandal related to his tweet in 2021. Alex Quick, the creator of KF Mod and the game designer of KF 1, is no longer overseeing the franchise.

The modern TWI has been ignoring DDoS attacks in KF 2 for 2.5 years despite numerous complaints on their forums. The official servers were lagging, and many community hosts had their servers shut down by their providers because they were abused in a reflection type of attack against bigger services. Noodle, also known as jwshields, a modder who came up with the most efficient solution for community servers and shared it on the official forums, received a game ban because a private mod he ran on his own server would say the n-word and other silly stuff in response to some chat commands. A game ban for some automated text messages with strong language in an 18+ game, dammit! TWI only found it out because there was a snitch in a third-party Discord server who took a screenshot of his conversation with another user and reported it to the community manager. That's how they treat their dedicated fans.

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Speaking of KF 3, don't expect anything good if you don't want to be disappointed. It's going to be a mix of Doom, Back 4 Blood, Deep Rock Galactic, and perhaps some other titles, with characters and monsters from the previous Killing Floor series. The gameplay looks completely different. TWI still doesn't listen to the playerbase. Pretty much any forum for the game shows strong backlash against the "specialist" system, and their official "Specialists Feedback Thread" on the Steam forums is mostly getting Jester reactions. A poll on the official TWI forums shows that most players are against it, but TWI is still rolling with it as if nothing happened. This is barely scratching the surface, but I won't inflate this comment any longer so that the discussion stays on-topic.

mint condor
late moat
coarse coral
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imagine having to buy dlc to get the extra content. crazy.....

bold pond
# crimson rivet As I said to another player who responded here, I put a lot of effort into pre-e...

I'm not even asking question to you. I'm saying those text don't make sense. You've been using the words "paywall" or "pay to win" in your sentences, but it's very biased way to describe situation. Situation is much more simple, they make new contents, we buy new contents, part of DLC. Honestly, existing non-DLC-related perks are already super OP enough to complete existing difficulties, so even if they add a few many of OP perk (if they would do) it would never ever change current situation. Also, blaming devs about unfairness in UNOFFICIAL speedrunning challenge is wild logic.

merry creek
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If you enjoy this game, wouldn't you also enjoy the new maps. Why do you so desperately want those perks without the maps?

Furthermore, this would take away from the incentive to play the new episodes.

crimson rivet
# late moat You're failing to realize that wwz isn't a free to play game. The things you ar...

You're failing to realize that wwz isn't a free to play game.

You are strawmanning hard. At no point have I said that WWZ should be a free-to-play game. Please provide a direct quote where I said that if you think otherwise.

The things you are asking for are all attributes of f2p games.

Nonsense. Deep Rock Galactic only monetizes cosmetics, includes all biomes and mission types in the main game for free, and never locks weapon modifications and overclocks behind paid DLCs. That is one of the most popular PvE titles developed by a much smaller studio with less financial backing than a company as large as Saber Interactive. It is not free-to-play, either.

crimson rivet
# mint condor I didnt miss your points i just dont agree with them. Personally i see it as a l...

to get a perk for a weapon they could lock behind a dlc aswell, but instead decided to give to everyone for free

This is something that should be expected, not that you should be thankful for. No reasonable developer with any semblance of respect for its players should ever be doing that. P2W games flop because of that. Look at how much backlash Killing Floor 2, Payday 2, and the old Alliance of Valiant Arms received because of their desire to lock weapons with gameplay effects behind paid DLCs. You are apologizing disgusting anti-consumer practices.

crimson rivet
# coarse coral imagine having to buy dlc to get the extra content. crazy.....

Imagine missing my points by such a wide margin. Imagine caring about even playing field and balance in this game. Imagine advocating for an environment where no owners of the previous DLCs will be left behind. You are now officially siding with clueless Redditors that you despise so much. Wear it as a badge of honor.

crimson rivet
coarse coral
crimson rivet
coarse coral
jovial epoch
jovial epoch
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@spare tulip 🦧

twin pewter
grave swan
grave swan
# crimson rivet Imagine missing my points by such a wide margin. Imagine caring about even playi...

For a even playing field and balance there's far bigger issues than weapon perks locked behind a paywall. Content-wise, I believe nowhere does it say the perks are dlc, but don't take this at my word. I think it's reasonable to voice a concern about it if that's the case. It would be a bigger problem if that locked content was something extraordinary other "free" content doesn't already offer. But it seems saber had taken this into consideration and made the vast majority of the locked stuff pretty average to downright terrible. So I don't think it's really worth it to point out what-ifs as a problem and just focus with the sole fact that weapon perks are paywalled and possibly not even mentioned that they're part of the dlc. Personally it's no issue to me, but I can see why it could be a problem.

silent onyx
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Does fixing this increase popularity of the game?

thick coral
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prob not

thick coral
crimson rivet
# grave swan For a even playing field and balance there's far bigger issues than weapon perks...

I do agree that there are other problems in that area (console players being able to tank more hits than PC players and dealing more melee damage, for instance), but we have to start somewhere. The problems pointed out in the post belong to that domain, too, and they are easy to fix. The proposed solutions suggest either adding something or offering compensation that shouldn't be hard to get, so that the impact of complaints is minimized if something is taken away from players. If there are problems B and C aside from problem A, then problem A should still be solved, especially if the solution is not hard to implement.

fact that weapon perks are paywalled and possibly not even mentioned that they're part of the dlc

You are making a good point here. There is no shopping cart icon next to those perks, and it is enough for some people to miss the point and disregard the whole problem. Yes, you don't have to pay for those perks directly, but they are tied to mission objectives that are locked behind paid episodes. Those episodes have to be purchased separately because they are not included in any of the previous editions of the game. One could argue that you could just use a custom save file to unlock them, but console players are not in a position to do that, and there are PC players willing to earn everything themselves, even if it means grinding for a long time.

So I don't think it's really worth it to point out what-ifs as a problem

It starts small but can snowball quickly from there. Here's how events can unfold in the future:

  1. Some gimmick perks are locked behind objectives related to paid DLCs.
  2. Bro, it's neither META nor anything serious, stop complaining.
  3. More paid content gets added and more perks get locked behind the new paid DLCs, slightly stronger this time.
  4. Players still say nothing.
  5. A new paid DLC with a new episode gets released. This time, the locked perks are strong.
  6. Nothing new, bro, it has been like that for ages.
late moat
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At this point I'm going to assume you're trolling. This can't be real lmao

crimson rivet
blazing spire
frosty void
crimson rivet
# blazing spire i think its more the fact youre over exaggerating to prove a point

I am saying that this user is denying reality because he is doing exactly that, denying reality. He made sure to leave a "Jester" emoji under many of my posts but didn't take his time to read & understand the points made there (even those that have been formatted as big, bold headings), which has resulted in him trying to refute those points I have not made (this is known as the straw man fallacy) and making statements that have been pre-emptively addressed by me in the original posts. My post is serious, and I have no intention to troll. Otherwise, I wouldn't have put so much effort into the explanation and wouldn't have shared a table of objectives made by another contributor.

So who exactly is trolling here?

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Happy New Year, by the way

crimson rivet
frosty void
late moat
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Just spend the $10 bro

frosty void
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how dare a game charge money for a cosmetic even tho there 3x how many characters in the game for blue coins

crimson rivet
# late moat Just spend the $10 bro

This topic is not about me or my subjective needs, and your response has nothing to do with the points presented in my post. Stop trolling

crimson rivet
frosty void
# crimson rivet Getting tired of repeating myself because people refuse to read. Here's the deal...

it really has no difference, I’ve played this game for 2 years and haven’t noticed anything game breaking just because someone spent a few dollars on a game they enjoy, if it really is so much of a big deal to you, you don’t have to spend the money but that’s your choice, pay walls and DLCs are how a company can make money to update their game, if you’re so upset about it go make your own game, completely free, with absolutely no paid items, put all your time and effort into a game to be rewarded with no money

spice nova
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bro how u dont have 10 bucks kekw

crimson rivet
# frosty void it really has no difference, I’ve played this game for 2 years and haven’t notic...

What exactly is your point? Have you even read the original post? Do you realize that unethical decisions alienate the playerbase of the game you are playing? When players feel that the developers' decisions are disrespectful, they leave and may even give up on the developers or publishers of the game entirely. I am not making anything up or exaggerating — paywalled content is one of the most frequent complaints in negative reviews about the game, and the situation with it is only getting worse. Are you fine with a corporation alienating their playerbase and making the playing field uneven?

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How exactly will the game become worse if this happens?

  • The unlock condition for the Defensive SMG's "Lightweight Drum" perk is changed from "collect 9 document pieces for Vegas 2" to "collect 1 document for the New York 1" or just 500 Blue Coins.
  • The unlock condition for the Repeating Rifle's "Electro Shot" perk gets changed from "3 documents for Phoenix 2" to just 500 Blue Coins or any mission-related objective from the first 3 episodes.
  • The only ability to repair a Virus Sample in this game, the "Make Do and Mend" perk for the Special SMG, gets distributed for a mission-related objective from the first 4 episodes, Blue Coins, or for free.
  • Melee weapons from the Aftermath, such as the Dual Sickles, Dual Knives, Stun Baton, Tomahawk, Sword, etc., become available for owners of every edition.
crimson rivet
spice nova
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stop crying go player fortnite when this game is so ass for u

frosty void
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the sad truth is no matter what, your voice wont be heard in the large crowd

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if you wanna make a difference, either join the company OR, make ur own game :>

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and for the record, i paid 10 bucks for the dlc and its not even working so just kinda save your breath?

crimson rivet
# frosty void my point is companies dont care about you

Here's what I said in the first post I have made:

Saber Interactive is capable of changing the course when an issue gets traction, so let's bring it to Saber's attention.

I am bringing attention to the issue so that the public becomes aware of it and pushes Saber to improve the game if the company itself doesn't want to. Look at how the Helldivers 2 community pushed back against the PSN account requirement. It works.

the sad truth is no matter what, your voice wont be heard in the large crowd

And you are absolutely not helping the case, you are doing the opposite by shooting down an initiative that could change this game for the better.

frosty void
# crimson rivet Here's what I said in the first post I have made: > Saber Interactive is capabl...

im not shooting it down, im just telling you how it is, the difference between hell divers is the community being so large, this community is large sure, but this is a genre of games thats outdated, 2007-2013 was the zombie era, its simply dying off, im fine with making it better, but your argument with micro transactions is completly idiotic, they NEED money to HELP fix their game, so what if you get a bonus with a skin? if you dont want that they offer solo play.

crimson rivet
frosty void
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'gameplay effects" is just nonsensical, you get multiple options for every weapon via challenges and missions, you are upset that its hidden behind a pay wall WITH a cosmetic tag?

crimson rivet
frosty void
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your argumemt makes no valid sense and is just a cry for attention at this point.

crimson rivet
frosty void
crimson rivet
coarse coral
crimson rivet
#

The topic has got traction, so that's at least something.

frosty void
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ps: just spend the money

crimson rivet
frosty void
frosty void
# crimson rivet I am not your "love," and this is one thing that you and other naysayers are fai...

i really do understand your point, i dont agree with your way to fix it though, i understand some people may not want to spend their money, like you evidently, i can understand that, but what else do you expect with these games? its retentive, you will be met with the same answers of, Money helps support new content, lack of money means firing coders programmers etc etc resulting in no new content.

crimson rivet
#

The problem with paywalled weapon perks is rather easy to fix, and those DLCs will be bought for other stuff anyway

frosty void
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its not like these things are going to make you instantly complete these levels

crimson rivet
#

Just one simple but noticeable example: how can you repair a broken Virus Sample without owning the Aftermath edition of the game or upgrading your base game?

hallow hound
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bro was born in 2024 and doesn't know games with DLC 😭

crimson rivet
# hallow hound bro was born in 2024 and doesn't know games with DLC 😭

You are missing my points by a wide margin, and you have also missed the comment where I mentioned Deep Rock Galactic as an example of a successful game developed by a smaller studio than Saber Interactive, with much less financial backing. GSG, the development company of this game, only sells cosmetic DLCs and never locks gameplay effects behind paywalls. This game, despite being older than WWZ, has been growing in popularity. Left 4 Dead 2, a game from 2009, has no DLCs at all, and it keeps growing in popularity. There are other examples of games that don't monetize gameplay advantages and even offered years of free content updates. You sound like you belong to the "new" generation of players, so to speak, who got used to being milked by greedy publishers like EA that don't exactly respect their customers.

hallow hound
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Wow you cherrypicked two games as examples that really helps give us a wide view of games with DLC

crimson rivet
hallow hound
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I've been playing games for the last 15 years or so and I remember when games on PC especially had gameplay DLC locked behind a paywall because it was adding completely new aspects to the game... something which saber has done with first person and entire new maps and guns etc... This has been around for years... Stop complaining. It's much better than the alternative: Fortnite-like live service with microtransactions out the wazoo

#

You're paying to support a game you love and play often... if you compare how much the average person spends on WWZ versus the average person spends on cosmetic items in Fortnite. You will see they don't even compare

crimson rivet
#

something which saber has done with first person and entire new maps and guns etc...

And I am not saying that it's good. The first-person mode being locked behind the paid Aftermath edition or upgrade is among the top complaints in the negative reviews. It was enough for some people to request a refund for WWZ and claim to never buy anything related to it again, not the Aftermath edition, not the rest of the DLCs.

This has been around for years...

This is exactly the kind of argument I am referring to. "Nothing new, bro, it has been like that for ages." Things can and should change for the better now so that there are fewer justifications like that in the future.

It's much better than the alternative: Fortnite-like live service with microtransactions out the wazoo

This game is already live-service and it has microtransactions, just in a different form.

Stop complaining.

Please quote at least 3 points from my post, tell the readers of this topic how it's going to make the game worse than it is now, and offer a better solution.

hallow hound
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this game has an estimated $10 million revenue and has been out for 5 years. I'll let you decide which category this game belongs in. It is not cheap to keep a game running and developing and adding new content

image.png
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This game could be interpreted as live-service in a different form but I'll tell you it is VASTLY cheaper than the previously iterated alternative. I don't get your point asking for things to get "better" nothing is free man they need to continue to make money so they can continue to develop the game for us. It's that simple!

frosty void
hallow hound
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Not to mention they need to be paid for their effort. 100% doesnt and shouldn't go into development. They've worked hard... They deserve a pretty penny themselves.

frosty void
late moat
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WWZ doesn't need a 100% perfectly balanced weapon and perk system provided for free since this game is not a competitive PVP shooter like COD, Apex Legends, etc. Your arguments make sense, but only if you were talking about a competitive PVP... This is a PVE with replayable story missions. It's okay to not have a completely level playing field. Buy the DLC or don't... If you like the game and support the devs you will buy it. But malding over a couple of insignificant weapon perks like you are is insane

hallow hound
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Also if the price is an issue dude I will buy you the DLC send me your steam link and I got you man. We can all play the game and support the devs together 🤝

crimson rivet
# frosty void <@349360096196820992> dont wanna say i told you so but, this all comes back to w...

This all comes back to you misunderstanding my points because you haven't read my post and supplementary comments:

  1. I am not against monetizing content in principle. What I am against is locking gameplay effects behind a paywall. Of course, the game needs money for sustained development. Need more money? Fine, sell the base game, monetize the cosmetics, and monetize the new episodes if you are not pursuing the ethically questionable lootbox route (although it's a separate discussion about the prices of the DLC, the prices of the base game, and how paid DLCs in general are not viewed positively by customers). Don't lock weapons or their upgrades in a shooter game behind a paywall, it makes the playing field uneven and is disrespectful towards the customers. It makes the game less fun to play, it leaves players behind and alienates potential buyers.

  2. If they detach weapon perks from the paid DLCs with episodes, they can still sell the paid DLCs with episodes. If they make melee weapons from the Aftermath available for owners of every edition, they can still sell Aftermath for its other content.

  3. You are forgetting that the base game is sold at full-price outside of seasonal sales, which has got raised, and it happened multiple times already for some regions like India and the Philippines. No Man's Sky is a successful game that had a rough start but gained traction later, partially because of the free updates that instilled more trust in the customers. The game's sales alone funded years of development. A game doesn't absolutely need to have paid DLCs in order to survive.

#

  1. In the modern days, the content is distributed digitally far more so than 20 and even 10 years ago. There are less middlemen and logistical expenses involved in delivering a product to customers.

  2. We are talking about Saber, a rather rich company that can afford to buy whole other studios in addition to sustaining their own. It's not an indie game developer barely surviving with 2.5 people among their staff.

  3. Yes, the company will get extra money from their current monetization model. How many potential buyers have they lost, though? Negative reviews have plenty of people stating that the game isn't worth $40 and recommending to buy it during sales. That's just the base game, it costs more with the DLCs. There are complaints other things related to paywalled content, too.

#
  1. Given how much stuff is monetized already, people would like to see a better kind of support. More transparency, more bug fixes, better QA, better patch notes, and better, two-sided communication with the community. The ghost/bugged zombies is among the top complaints, and it's not fixed yet. The same goes for players dying at the beginning of the map, you'd be surprised to find out that it pisses people off to no end.
#
  1. I mentioned here (in response to another user) that I played the Killing Floor series. They have not been as popular as other PvE games. The KF community has seen plenty of cookie-cutter arguments about how developing games isn't cheap and how the company needs money for continued development. Yes, of course the extra dosh is necessary, people just underestimate how much money has been earned from the game sales and the previous DLC sales. "Lootboxes are a necessity," some people said. "Yeah, it's $10 per gun, the times are changing, and the developers are facing difficulties, it's necessary so that the company won't go bankrupt," said those people, too. Yea, here are you all thinking that you are funding the game's development so hard, only for the (now former) president show off a photo in front of their Lamborghini and state how the company's employees were buying cars and houses after a short period of work in the company, and that's just for 10% of the budget divided between all the staff. Then those company members make your favorite game worse with each update, break stuff that worked, and permanently ban some of their most dedicated players & community modders for some "bad words," LMAO.
crimson rivet
crimson rivet
frosty void
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i mean you say your for the people, the voice of the unheard, would you like us to start a presidential campaign for you?

#

after a few donations you could maybe buy the dlc, or make your own game

crimson rivet
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freedom only, USA!

late moat
crimson rivet
mint condor
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Bro keeps on writing essays instead of just buying the dlc and unlocking the perks

twin pewter
coarse coral
coarse coral
crimson rivet
mint condor
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Again, i am not i just dont agree with them

hallow hound
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Again icebeam just loves to complain

crimson rivet
silent onyx
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No one reads, the same way no one likes to receive a wall of text on their phone.

rain swift
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Fk this shit u cant bother me to read this

#

Its like my ex.

rain swift
rain swift
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You have to pay me for me to read this lmao @crimson rivet

delicate viper
crimson rivet
hallow hound
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You’ve said “if you can’t be bothered to read 🤓☝️” so many times that now I can’t be bothered to read

silent onyx
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this is the same effect of the text wall that ceases people's motivation to interact, and the meme of a boyfriend reading through a text wall and people laughing at his misfortune. you think you're adding to the conversation, but you're suffocating the conversation by adding enough things for people to not care.

crimson rivet
#

Do you even understand what you are saying? What is your point exactly?

  1. If someone is not motivated to read the original post, then why are they replying to it in the first place? Wouldn't simply not responding conserve more energy and screen space for them? What motivates them to post comments in the first place?
  2. If you are willing to comment on a post, you should familiarize yourself with its contents. This is a concept that is typically taught at school:
    • The "English as a second language" classes have "reading" exercises that require students to read an article and answer the relevant questions. There is no "too long, didn't read it, LOL" option in the array of possible answers. In case you have to write a complete answer from scratch instead of choosing the correct one and give a clearly uninformed answer, nothing good will come out of it, you will just fail that task and not get any points for it. English classes for native speakers should be even more hardcore than that.
    • To solve a mathematical problem, you must read the problem's description first. Otherwise, your solution will be incorrect.
    • To write an essay on the topic of a historical event, you must familiarize yourself with the details of that event. Otherwise, you will write nonsense which will not be accepted as a valid answer.

You choose to comment on a post — you read the post first. Why does this rather simple concept has to be explained explicitly here?