The combat system does not need improvement (movement needs it first!)

[simple talon]

Dear Alkimia,
You're doing such a lovely work with this project. The overall atmosphere is already insanely awesome, far better than i would have hoped!
Until you move the character. Then, the immersion breaks. Just two single presses on the forward and backward key, and everything in me says "oh, please, Innos, no!".
Everyone talks about how the combat system needs improvement. It doesn’t. It needs a replacement of its core!
Because at the core of it all there's a deeper layer, the centerpiece of combat: movement of any kind! And the question if hero-movement is a direct, immediate (!) response to player-keypresses or not.

I highly respect your own visions, being inspired by RDR2 you wanted an epic feeling, "realistic" movement. I m sorry to say, but not just the current wave of userfeedback tells you it doesnt work - It's basically the main feedback since the first gamescom demo 2023, second demo in 24, the released demo 1.0 and 2.0. I remember that with the Nyras 2.0 demo, some people shared feedback like combat has significantly improved. It did not. Because the main paradigm did not change: there is no direct 1:1 transmission of player-keypress:character-movement.
Please, dear Alkimia, consider dropping that Paradigm, that fundamental "Dogma". Not only for the sake of some hardcore Gothic Fans, but for the sake of Gothics success on the market (which you well deserve in any case!).

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It's not just the combat system. It's the philosophy of movement itself.

Press ↑ (up arrow) several times in succession in the original - you have a Stutterstep. Without any wobbling. Without delay. Immediately. Without the feeling that the hero is ice-skating.

Press the ↓ (down arrow) button in the OG and you immediately move backwards - without turning to face the camera!

That's directness in movement, not just in the combat system, but everywhere. It gives you the feeling of being there, in that world of Gothic, standing FIRMLY on your own feet, having full control over your body, ready to sidestep/jump/run/attack/turn at the fraction of a second... exactly in the moment it has to happen.

Sadly you've already built in delays to normal movement, in the name of "realism". And this gives Nyras and the nameless Hero the feeling of being disabled and a professional ice-skater at the same time. It just doesn't work.

Please ditch all attempts to make it like RDR2, and implement what Mr Enno says at @6:30 of his video. https://youtu.be/kHXlKWX-1EM?si=FaKHAe6SFsQRqAWV&t=391

Take the core of the original combat system (and movement system!), the arcadey, fast, direct one - and then just modernize it a tiny bit with comfort, QoL Features, while adding good master combat stance animations and combos - which is something that still needs to be done right anyway.

Please, do not try to improve the current (combat) movement system!

Please take a look and play the Unreal Engine version of Gothic 1 (again) - also via controller, and then consider whether it wouldn't be worth a try to adopt this “simple”, but at least direct game control as a new default setting and build on it. Please give it a shot - this might be the best time for it, as you ll certainly take a deep dive into the movement/combat system anyway. This would be the most radically beautiful and courageous step ever. Cheering you on!❤️ Thousands of old and especially new Gothic fans will thank you!

[surreal atlas]

Personally - would say - animations are not bad. Each one taken separately is at least okeish. But as you said, the input lag is a problem. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to it, like I had with RDR2 (but I really didn't liked this game). In addition, how are they connected is also a problem.

Hitboxes are separated issue tho.

[wintry berry]

Haha saying rdr2 you didnt like without ant context, makes you look stupid.

Rdr 2 has best in slot Hunting activity of all games i played. Animals react and behaviour is at the top level unbeatable. Kcd 2 disnt even match or ant other game

Movement worked as its not melee combat game.

Horse was best in the industry nobody can match even a sightest

Hitboxes dont work in my opinion its because there are loteraly no hitboxes. These look like scripted animations.

In GR If they are determined to land. The oponent can move backwards or sideways yet the attack will reach a target by “tracking” with sort of”soft lock” implemented in the game

[surreal atlas]

There was enaugh context in my statement. We are disscussing slow movement, thats the context. I'm not even trying to compare rdr2 with 500mln USD budget with kcd2 with 40mln USD budget. There is no comparison of that.

[simple talon]

It's a real shame that you felt it necessary to say “makes you look stupid” in your comment. I don't like playing the UNO reverse card, but sorry, what you accuse me of applies to your comment... I did my best to provide sufficient “context” and to address exclusively and in detail one point of RDR2 that is relevant here: the 1:1 transmission of player input.

I am aware that I often make things sound more complicated than they are – which is probably why I received a few of those “thoughtful” smileys in response, and not even a single reaction to the longer text. But the way you read my text unfortunately shows that you have completely missed the point.

[cyan obsidian]

I feel like to solve this you don’t need to redo motion capture. It just needs programming/tweaking/fine-tuning in my opinion. Same goes for AI. It will not get better if its done again from 0, that will get them to the point they are now and I don’t know how much budget they have left. Don’t you think?

[simple talon]

Seems my whole text failed miserably to get my point across, lol.

I'll try again:
I only stubbornly insisted on "don't improve the current system", because my point is that it needs a radical change at its core.

Maybe it's wiser to say "ditch the main paradigm of your system, which is input delay"...

No animation has to be thrown away! All that is working well can be preserved, but adjusted to the new, higher speed!

So yes, i agree with you, IF "tweaking" means: Getting rid of input delay and pseudo-weight-simulation completely.
If "tweaking" will just be like what happened between Nyras Demo 1.0 and 2.0, then it won't be enough though. The 'reset' has to go down to zero, not any other value.

Reverting back to the default settings of movement would already feel way more precise and direct than the current movement. This reverting back is super easy. What's time-consuming is then adjusting all the timings, especially for combat. But my argument is: That has to be done anyway! So why not build upon a rock solid direct 1:1 transmission of movement-system when improving combat timings now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unmdCJs3Im4

[knotty relic]

The problem isn't just input lag. While that's a major issue, here are the others:

Slow Animations: Movement and attack animations are too slow. Speeding them up slightly would make them look and feel much better.

Inconsistent Hit Feedback: The inconsistent animations make it hard to tell if our blow actually landed. If this feedback were consistent, combat would be much more predictable.

Hitboxes: Even with the camera locked on an enemy, you can often see a blow that should hit not being registered. It's as if the hitboxes don't cover the entire enemy model, but only a part of it. This creates a feeling of the game being unfair and unpredictable, which leads to player frustration.

Enemy AI: The AI's behavior is passive. Enemies often stand like statues, contemplating what to do, and when they do attack, it's reluctantly and sporadically, with little aggression. It's as if they aren't seriously engaged in the fight. This is a major problem, as enemies should evoke emotions and create pressure on the player to fight their best to survive. Enemies should also force the player to use different tactics based on their animation speed, movement, or behavior. For example, a group of goblins, or a portion of them, should flank the hero to disorient him and attack from multiple directions. A great video on everything I've been writing about was made by the YouTuber Mumin. He brilliantly explained all the flaws of the combat system and how to fix them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuBdZCGn55g

[cyan obsidian]

Yeah no its fine, we understand each other 🤙

[simple talon]

100% agree. Upvoted that video some months ago.

It's just that the points you mention come 'on top', that's why i tried to focus on the first one, the input-issue, because without going down to ZERO there, all further adjustments (animations, hit feedback, hitboxes, AI) are then still adjusted to a completely horribly feeling basic setting of movement.

Regarding my Unreal Engine video above:
I find it shocking that after an hour in Unreal Engine 5, you can achieve character control that feels better than what Alkimia has done. That's just really sad, haha.
But at the same time, it's giving hope that Alkimia will dare to return to the basics...

[tame pine]

I found the movement in RDR2 made the game unplayable. I really tried, for 2 hours, but it feels so bad, I just couldn't continue playing.

I hope that GR will change course in regards to this immersion-breaking movement. It's quite odd to me that they claim immersion to be an important aspect of the remake, yet they do the opposite. The more direct the controls are, the more immersive it becomes. I've done research at university about this topic. You can basically boil this down to the same issue that causes motion sickness in VR, just in a broader context. There is a disconnect between the player and the game character, since input is not translated to action immediately.

Getting rid of any delay should be the highest priority.

[knotty relic]

Alkimia wanted to emulate the best—certainly the most recognizable developers. But Rockstar has huge funds and a massive staff with industry experience.

But to get back to the main point—'The points you mentioned are "additional," which is why I tried to focus on the first one, the input lag issue'—this is a very important point, and probably the most important one right now. However, success in creating a truly good combat system that provides satisfaction and enjoyment comes from the implementation of every element, because it's a mix of all these elements that will lead to something great. Still, they should first and foremost focus on eliminating that input lag.

Although, when it comes to the hitbox problems, it seems to me that they are more related to the models of NPCs, monsters, and animals rather than the weapons. In the original Gothic, I get the impression that the hitboxes were often exaggerated for the sake of combat flow, readability, and comfort. For example, goblins in Gothic were smaller than the player's character, and the weapon animations didn't adjust to the opponent's height (but I'm not sure about this) https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxy2L_G_YGPUtBj6pmDmS7ZrnlSE-TeNdR?feature=shared. Only in such extreme cases in the original did you have a problem hitting an enemy, for example, a beetle, a bloodfly, or a harpy (if they flew too high and were right above the hero's head).

[wanton panther]

What needs the improvement are animations of combat (having combos too) , enemies and npcs, and also playable character feeling the impact of each blow you take/give. Plus sounds should be much more impactful

[vague coral]

Everyone talks about how the combat system needs improvement. It doesn’t. It needs a replacement of its core!
Thank you for your feedback, I agree with some points, but rebuild the core of the combat system, in my personal opinion, isn't possible, because we're not in the beginning of the development.

[warm hawk]

Speed up everything then. And give us some tactical depth to each type of attack... This is just my suggestion... #1407963196144222298 message

[knotty relic]

With all due respect, Mr. T-Moor, this is just an explanation, not an excuse. If Alkimia wants their Gothic Remake to be fun to play and for players to be eager to dive into it—and thus sell well so they can work on other projects—they should make every effort to eliminate the biggest flaws of the combat system. I'm afraid that half-measures will not, in the end, provide a significant enough improvement for the combat to be good—it might be okay, average, but not good. Not very good (but I would love to be wrong).

[warm hawk]

Yes, remember that other games with BETTER combat were still butchered by critics and fans alike.

Enotria... (Coff! Coff!)

[wintry berry]

3 words. Rework from scratch . Or #BackToAlpha

The target auddience is 30+ millenials. Gothic booths at GC2025 revealed

[warm hawk]

And if you try to appeal to the younger generations... be ready. Cuz they won't like the gameplay concept to begin with. Try to satisfying everyone, you'll end up satisfying no one. See Quake Champions for example. They wanted it to appeal to the oldest fans with a crazy fast movement and skillbased combat, but they also introduced champions and abilities. The end result was that the old fans didn't like the abilities, and the youngest generations didn't like the skill investment. QC is dead now. Nobody is playing it anymore and the devs stopped patching it.

[warm hawk]

Unless you have genious game designers like Hugo Martin who made it possible the Doom franchise satisfying both audiences... good luck then.

[frank needle]

Try to satisfying everyone, you'll end up satisfying no one.
SUPER true tbh. 100% agreed.

[simple talon]

I just hope Alkimia could... at least try out how a direct input/output relation will feel🙏🏼

Maybe i m naively assuming that changing that central parameter wouldn’t increase workload beyond that which is due "to do" anyways (hitboxes, timings, combos, spacing..). That central parameter rather feels like a ideological decision, like... being part of a certain camp, rather than a gigantic 'rebuilding' problem

Anyway, it’s really insane we fans can share our feedback in general, and that we are listened to!

All the best

[frank needle]

As for the rest, I really don't think Alkimia needs to rework it from complete scratch, it needs more fluid and exciting movement and improved AI behavior during combat. I think then the combat - while it may not be perfect - is definitely better than some of the biggest mainstream hits, such as skyrim's

[knotty relic]

It's not hard to have a better combat system than the one in Skyrim, which is terrible in that regard. But right now, Skyrim still surpasses Gothic Remake in this area (and it shouldn't).

[wanton panther]

Yes, if you look at Kingdom Come Deliverance, the combat itself isnt that super exciting , its 4 directions + stab, but what makes it so satisfying is the sound effects and that the enemires just react to your slashes and so does the character you play as . I think what the guys have so far now is pretty decent, but its about just how it feels

[knotty relic]

As for the rebuild... If it's feasible, along with fixing the AI and everything else, then it's probably worth a shot. If it requires a much greater workload... Well, in that case, let's hope that polishing the animations and hitboxes will fix the combat enough so that it's not frustrating and provides at least some satisfaction. However, it would be great if it were possible to do what Sternenherz wrote about.

[wanton panther]

I think what I write above would solve some of the ways how combat feels, plus sound effects depending on what are you slashing / hitting, whether its flesh/ leather or armor

[tawny hamlet]

In my opinion, what can be done is:

• change the pace and time intervals of the animations for their fluidity, they must be responsive to the response of the keys and not tank like in RDR2. RDR is a bad idea for motion inspiration.
• Improve hitboxes, the typical basis.
• Fixing the wretched AI.
  If the studio can't handle it then ask the "top" to assign an outside studio to help, even someone outside Embarcer but with experience to help finish the game.
  G1 was finished by a large number of outsiders, it's worth a try.

[knotty relic]

Yes, but only in part, because the problem of responsiveness, hitboxes that don't cover the entire models of monsters and probably NPCs, still remains. However, the idea with the sounds is very good, and if they also added animations reacting to a blow, which wouldn't be random... Ehh, that would be nice.

[wanton panther]

Yeah I agree with your point, good news is that it can be fixed. When you add some sort of responsivness to the enemies , the overall feel (plus some beefy sounds) totally change the feeling

[knotty relic]

That's right, nothing to add, nothing to take away.

[wanton panther]

Plus some blades hitting each other sound effects and sparks when blades meet 🫶

[simple talon]

I just cant get over the fact that the default movement of a character in UE feels 100% better than what we currently got.

It feels as if reverting back to default responsivenes and speed of UE5 (not rebuilding, but deleting Alkimias parameter tweaks) would lead to a better system 100%.
I havent spent many hours in UE5, i m a beginner, but i hope you (Alkimia) understands the frustration someone gets when comparing the good basic default movement of UE achievable after 1 hour of work vs. the Gothic Remake.

[knotty relic]

Just without an excessive amount of sparks (so the image remains readable).

[wanton panther]

do you pls have any video examples how these look like ?

[wanton panther]

Yes ofc, no Forspoken over here

[simple talon]

It's not about the looks (animation), but the instanteneous feel of control in this case. The basic look after following a 10 minute UE tutorial of course is just a rough prebuild, which then has to be filled with life via character design and customized animation!

The video can be seen above

#1409352521906126889 message

[wanton panther]

let me see

[worldly plover]

Input Delay is kinda stupid. Give a noob a sword and he will move it very quickly when he sees somebody trying to hit him.

He won’t do it elegantly or in a good way that enables further moves, but he will be quick.

[knotty relic]

Since Alkimia themselves admitted that it was a mistake to be inspired by the movement from RDR2, reverting back to what you wrote, Sternenherz—"It feels as if reverting back to default responsiveness and speed of UE5 (not rebuilding, but deleting Alkimia's parameter tweaks) would lead to a better system 100%"—would not be a source of shame for them. I hope the rest of the community would see it the same way.

[vague coral]

Increase speed and reactivity is more possible, of course. Will address it to the team

[vague coral]

The problem is that changing such parameters affects other things too as I understand that. It is not like to increase mouse sensetivity in the game settings with a slider. It should be in the line with many other things. But our devs see your feedback too, Im sure they will do their best to fix and improve everything as much as possible

[vague coral]

I undestand, Im just giving more details to the topic

[warm hawk]

Have you seen this? 😅 #1408004114486526126 message

[tropic abyss]

I'm sorry, but it's not our problem that you didn't do it properly earlier, it is what it is, the combat needs to be rebuilt, not polished, if you only improve it a little, it will still be weak, keep that in mind It's just broken from the ground up, the hitboxes aren't what they should be, the character model overlaps with the monster model, and it also affects the opponents' AI.

[vague coral]

Step by step, I saw these gifs a few days ago =) There are too many topics. Will get there soon

[warm hawk]

Yeah the ammount of posts is insane.

[simple talon]

Yea it's the elefant in the room, that fat parameter Giga Gorn (devs) will be victorious against it i m sure

[wintry berry]

Is elden ring or Monster Hunter combat for “modern audience”

I dont think the combat as is satisfies old gothic fans. Because there is no bias or nostalgia towards the old gothic

I wouldnt play gothic 1/2 as archer or crossbowman if it wasnt for Dirty Swamp or New Balance mod. Same goes for GR, i will play as Mage and not anything else if they suck.

[simple talon]

Oh? Havent heard about this. My last watched interviews were the german Gamestar/RBTV gamescom streams.

Yea like i wrote in my overly long text in the beginning, it would be a courageous and beautiful step, getting rid of that pseudo-weight-paradigm

I mean not only would it demonstrate huge mental strength, but (imho) increase the gameplay fun by 100% , and Gothics success by 100%

[wintry berry]

What do you guys think of Capcom”s. Combat system used in their games? For example Onimushas or Dd2? They always just feel rright. Fun to play, has mechanical depth, feels impactful and heavy weapons feel like they have weight

[wanton panther]

The combat feels flashy , but it doesnt fit Gothic. What would help is my suggestions above

[simple talon]

I just played Windrose (Demo on Steam), and just moving around, drawing a sword and the overall responsiveness of actions made me sigh: It could be so f*ing easy.
I really hope the release version of the G1Remake is FAR more responsive than the latest Nyras Demo. Not talking about combat (i know the combat animations have been made faster), but movement and actions.

Windrose also reminded me that wind-up-animations (the tiny movements the character does before actually starting to walk or run) can happily coexist with instantenous movement (stutter stepping!). It could have been so easy.. Man, playing this "okay" Windrose Demo (it's not a AAA game, lol) really made me worry about the Remake again, because to me, there's nothing more important than snappyness of movement and actions inside the world. It's the basis of everything: Without it, exploring the world feels like being physically impaired - compared to Games which have zero artificial slowdown-mechanics.