server-plugins-read-only

[shut wharf]

we dont want free hytale

[upbeat storm]

Pay for Hytale if you want to play it please

[still mist]

same

[vague sequoia]

As an open-source activist i shame u for mentioning capitalist trash-can

[still mist]

Thats why asking, it got any drm to protect.

[vague sequoia]

Imo all software should have option for getting it for free by compiling it yourself

[green plank]

Yeap, I thought about that, but I like to implement the basic systems before the game is launched 😈

Apparently, we will have to leave the interface for future implementation :(

In any case, thank you for your reply 🙂

[stray bane]

Based on the game having a login system it is going to have some sort of DRM protection but like every other game in the world unless it is always online and has protections that disallow offline then bypassing that DRM is possible but having a login screen and some sort of authenication I am assuming they have basic DRM protection, this will most likely make it where players cant play on servers without having a valid UUID and license assigned to that UUID

Not sure if they are going to implement an offline mode into dedicated servers or just single player worlds.

[west elk]

According to the store website:

An internet connection is required to download and for periodic authentication. Offline play will be supported.

[storm junco]

i mean, i get your point, but yea

[stray bane]

IMO builtbybits is just as bad as the minecraft marketplace. Got like 10 year old kids making trash to make a penny.

[vague sequoia]

And Hytale better to cooperate with Modrinth.
Modrinth is much more modern, convinient and open-source and has plugin-support.

[full sleet]

When ptherodactyl egg?

[storm junco]

i dont support the trash, but there are some good resources on there aswell that devs put really much time into

[vague sequoia]

MC mods is The Haeven of free and open software , most mods. But bedrock has microslop

[still mist]

I mean the only games that cannot be bypassed are those that rely entirely on online authentication. I did not mean login. You need to be connected to the internet and authenticated to the Hytale servers to reach the game menu first and then you can play. Every time you start the game, this verification process is required.

Games like Among Us 3D, Outlast Trials and others use this system and they do not have this issue.

Since this game will have singleplayer, I believe they should add a requirement that an internet connection to reach the in game menu first. After the authentication is verified online, you can then select singleplayer.

[west elk]

Janurary 13th

[full sleet]

Thanks!

[vague sequoia]

Id like to suggest it to devs, is there any way to suggest them it?

[near raptor]

This is speculation, but it sounds like there is an auth system to start the game (in the launcher), that can work off of cached tokens (if you have no internet connection) but requires an internet connection now and then to refresh the tokens, and on first boot.

[west elk]

They approached Modrinth but Modtinth said they focus only on Minecraft for now

[near raptor]

So really it shsould be the other way around: Modrinth should cooporate with Hytale

[vague sequoia]

So sad..

[near raptor]

But it is understandable, putting energy into preparing for a game that is not yet released if your core is still at another game might not be worth it for now. Maybe once Hytale releases and it becomes clear how populair it is and how big of a community it will have, things come around.

[still mist]

I believe we know about "atlauncher", they got the token system which save if you have minecraft or not (1 time check). People can just bypass it by fake token.
So it should add totally online based login, which will everytime check your id.

[fringe ore]

Big oooooof

What mods yall making?

[cedar bronze]

Isn’t modrith open source? Couldn’t the we/ the community fork it and build a mod/plugin platform specifically for hytale?

[vague sequoia]

we can, easily, but then we have to host server ourselves

but ye, why not, we can make just fork of modrinth like hyrinth, and host mods & plugins there

[neon tree]

learn java and wait till next week xD

then all you got to do is wait

[cedar bronze]

I don’t think hosting it would be a huge problem, rather modifications which may be needed. I think it would be cool to build something like this as a community, so if anyone is interested, we could make it happen

[vague sequoia]

Hmm, what about just gather-up, and go for modrinth and starting Hyrinth?

[full ridge]

hey guys are there any docs about the hytale api yet?

[cedar bronze]

Sounds good

[midnight orbit]

Nah waitin

[zealous cobalt]

Hi guys ! Like a lot of people, I’m really hyped about Hytale, and the closer we get to launch, the more I feel like there’s huge potential there, especially around UGC / metaverse-style experiences.

I was wondering if, down the line, you’re planning to support mods or tools that could enable that kind of stuff?
Things like non-traditional gameplay experiences: interactive museums, persistent spaces, virtual real estate, live events, etc.

The main question I have is: would it be possible to build a mode that talks to external services (for example something like a blockchain?)

I know it’s a pretty complex topic, but honestly I’m already super motivated to start building around Hytale 😄
Thanks for all the work you’re doing, it’s really exciting to see where this is going.

[vague sequoia]

maybe reach out to some dev with this idea?

[west elk]

I don't see how any of that is not possible right at launch

[silver cloak]

mods are plugins

plugins are mods

[silver cloak]

You can do everything you mentioned

[loud raft]

does someone have a list of all the competing energy apis?

[vague sequoia]

energy api?

[silver cloak]

Energy mods

[vernal niche]

Not quite.

Mods is the umbrella term for both plugins and asset packs. Plugins are JARs, asset packs are zips or plain folders with JSON files and actual art assets.

So when someone says plugin they typically mean something that has java code, and many mods will not contain any java code at all

[vague sequoia]

there is none rn, innit?

[silver cloak]

Fair enough

[loud raft]

something that lets you transfer energy between mods/entities (i think thats the best way to describe it)

[loud raft]

i think theres a few, idk what stages each are at tho

[vague sequoia]

ye, I got it, but there is no Hytale API, there is no way someone could already make own mod

[loud raft]

would be nicer if it was native to hytale

[vague sequoia]

probably some sketches

[loud raft]

they can make guesses and build the api, and when the game releases they can refactor it for the hytale api

[marsh edge]

Well, if it's an API like the one I am working on, it could very well be just plain simple java (aka core, business code, whatever) that plugins can use

[cedar bronze]

I would also do modifications by myself if needed, but I don’t know if I can manage all that myself. So if there is someone here who would like to work together on a platform for plugins/mods for hytale, maybe we could build something together

[vague sequoia]

Unfortunetly im not a programmer, i know 0 PLs

[steep lion]

does hytale support SNI extension for TLS client hello?

that'd make setting up the reverse proxy considerably easier

[vernal niche]

It does

[steep lion]

amazing!

i have to point 2 domains for different projects to one host and I didn't want users to connect to my server with the non hytale domain

listen_port = 5520

[protocols]
[protocols."game_server"]
protocol = "quic"
target = ["10.10.0.2:5520"]
server_names = ["mydomain[.]com"]

i love how easy rust-rpxy-l4 is to configure

[fiery heron]

@steep lion do you have insite on hosting a server?

I am building one out for my friends and I am looking for information

[normal dune]

With this, it's easy to connect a network that redirects to different servers, right?

[steep lion]

i dont have any private information but we currently know

• server uses port 5520/UDP by default
• server uses QUIC protocol, TLS SNI extension supported
• you can look at some usages of their plugin API by searching BlockSpawner in this discord

[steep lion]

yes, at least until a proper hytale-specific reverse proxy is made

[normal dune]

But any developer with time and availability can create that, right?

It just needs more information about the API

[steep lion]

yea i think someone will make one eventually

[normal dune]

Since you're more familiar with these topics, do you know of any place or modding community besides that HytaleGuide for modders?

[steep lion]

not really

im just setting up things that aren't directly related to hytale

like preparing the network and hosting environment etc

[normal dune]

Can you share information via direct message or here? I'm going to set up a server network and still have some questions.

[steep lion]

you can ask here i think

[silver cloak]

when's the tech blog dropping I need itttt

[fringe ore]

What for like mods/plugins? Or more about the game

[silver cloak]

Mods / plugins yes. Server operators etc

[normal dune]

It would be more about what you're doing — I want to set up that structure too.

[steep lion]

again i can only answer things not directly related to hytale but
my set up is already at the point where it's running a dummy java quic server and on day one i can just swap the jar with the real hytale one

[fringe ore]

I would love an more in depth one as well. Going over everything

[silver cloak]

Slikey spoiled the blog but no idea when it's coming

[fringe ore]

Yahooo.. 🔥

[normal dune]

My question is exactly the one you mentioned — about the server.

[silver cloak]

hopefully this week

[fringe ore]

Sounds like something right before haha yeah

[steep lion]

whats the question anyway

[normal dune]

You set up the whole structure based on QUIC. What configurations did you make that will make it simple to just swap your JAR file with Hytale's?

[silver cloak]

Do u have to setup something special in order the .jar to run?

[steep lion]

rust-rpxy-l4 is mostly doing all the heavy work for me to route the connections, the server just needs a UDP port open (default is 5520)

for the "dummy java server" im just running a minecraft server with the github[.]com/ramidzkh/quic-connect mod that adds the QUIC protocol

so i can test if the connection is stable enough for games

[scarlet spoke]

You have to hook to the Hytale plugin system, once it executes your main entry point, you can delete your complete OS with that.
If you want more functions, you have to listen to events and use imported methods

[steep lion]

listen_port = 5520

[protocols]
[protocols."lobby"]
protocol = "quic"
target = ["0.0.0.0:5521"]
server_names = ["lobby.mydomain[.]com"]

[protocols."pvp"]
protocol = "quic"
target = ["0.0.0.0:5522"]
server_names = ["pvp.mydomain[.]com"]

if you want a network of servers its easy to configure too

[normal dune]

So you're testing directly with Minecraft?
How do you know the structure is similar?

[steep lion]

as long as it accepts the quic connection on the right port it should work

its just a matter of running a different application under the same system

[normal dune]

In this server network setup, wouldn't it be more organized and practical to develop a plugin that runs on a main server to act as the host/hub, along with other servers?

[silver cloak]

Yep

[steep lion]

yeah

[normal dune]

Just like it works in Minecraft with BungeeCord.

[silver cloak]

I still don't understand what's this for

[steep lion]

like if you want to host 2 hytale servers without assigning a different port or public ip addresses to each subdomain

[silver cloak]

uh

[steep lion]

rust-rpxy-l4 looks at which domain you connected from and redirects to the right hytale server

[silver cloak]

my little brain doesn't get what you are trying to build

[vague sequoia]

are we really initiative? I mean, we can make discord serv and search for devs willing to fork modrinth

[silver cloak]

maybe some other time I guess

[sterile robin]

someone now how works chunloading is based on player like minecraft or is in the world?

[silver cloak]

32x32 chunks

[steep lion]

hytale can transfer players to a different address
so for example, if a player presses a button named PvP in the lobby server it could take you to pvp.mydomain[.]com

[west elk]

Why can't you use different ports?

[steep lion]

to make the public facing address look nicer

[silver cloak]

lol. Such a silly detail

[summer ibex]

Would you need to include the port in your domain with this when the player connects?
IE: play.mydomain[.]com:5520, or pvp.mydomain[.]com:5521 ?

[steep lion]

it's confusing if i have to teach players like
mydomain[.]com:5520 for PvP
mydomain[.]com:5521 for survival

[normal dune]

Okay, but does Hytale have this network structure built-in? Because in Minecraft, we need a plugin to manage that.

Is that information available yet, or not?

[steep lion]

pvp.mydomain[.]com for PvP
survival.mydomain[.]com for survival
this is much more intuitive

[west elk]

That makes a lot of sense then. Since Hytale doesn't support SRV records

[sterile robin]

you just enter in the portal

[steep lion]

but some minecraft servers have addresses that'd directly let you join a specific part of the server

[summer ibex]

Guess that answer my question lol

[silver cloak]

Nope

[summer otter]

but can't you just use the transfer packet for that to an internal port or address. And make that domain point to that. Maybe I'm oversimplifying though I know some situations where a real proxy would ba handy, and idk if we can do SNI from within hytale or if we need a proxy for it, but from how it looks we can atleast do some stuff already

[silver cloak]

That's literally what I was thinking, player.transfer ip

[steep lion]

SNI is supported

thats confirmed by Nitrado André

[steep lion]

yea i mean if you dont need a handy address it is totally fine

also note that I am not going to host multiple hytale servers anyway
it was just an example structure that many MC servers have

I'm using SNI routing only because I have 2 domains pointing to the same machine's IP address

[silver cloak]

u guys think 16gb of ram is enough for a 500x500 pre generated world? I think it's plenty

[steep lion]

myhytaledomain[.]com
someotherdomain[.]com
both point to the same machine, but i don't want players to join my hytale server with someotherdomain[.]com because im not sure how long I'd keep that one active

[summer otter]

for that you can probably use a filtering systemn, if we have access to SNI check where they logged in from and poof kick the player

or do some internal handshake using cache/cookie packets if they support that

[sterile robin]

up to me this is not mc and you have to change for sure something in your pattern XD

[steep lion]

what

[sterile robin]

depends is only for server with linux?

[silver cloak]

wdym server with linux

[summer otter]

but I do see your point KabanFriends, lets see how the server launches and move on from there

[steep lion]

reverse proxy handles that without having to like, write a plugin after the launch of the game

[sterile robin]

for sure is awefull start

[fringe ore]

Wait we cant just run a bat file like a local Minecraft paper server?

[steep lion]

you can

[fringe ore]

Oh ok thx

[silver cloak]

pretty sure it's not

70 players on a 8gb ram generating chunks lasting 2 hours is not bad (it crashed due to other reasons)

[steep lion]

there's another reason why I used a reverse proxy
my friend offers me a good hardware to run servers on, but due to their ISP limitations it cannot directly forward the ports

[summer ibex]

Is 128GB enough? 👀

[steep lion]

so I'm using a cloud VPS as the gateway where players would actually connect
then reverse proxy routes the connection to my friend's machine where the actual server is at

[summer otter]

I know but there is one problem with writing a full reverse proxy, and that is that most expect quic/http3. You can change this with a plugin likely, and maybe you did already, but it would be very easy on L7. As for L4, I know it's possible and doable but don't think anyone really spend time on this yet, outside of maybe a select few. I wanted to spend time on it but got side tracked by several other things

[summer otter]

but how would that vps connect to his computer

[steep lion]

using wireguard vpn

[fiery heron]

Kaban that is how I host my servers too.. not doxing your ip and able to run the server local

[sterile robin]

nah is fine for sure for v1 that dosent have alot of contents no plugin ecc

maby for 70 is not enought but 20 - 30 for sure

[summer otter]

👍

[steep lion]

as a bonus, reverse proxy as gateway also lets you hide the real server's ip address and maybe provide a little bit of ddos protection if the vps has that

[summer otter]

Kaban, you can intehory also host a small hytale server without plugins except for 1 on the vps

and then transfer them to the vpn assigned local address

but depends on what you want of course

[sharp lake]

500x500 chunks? or do you mean literal blocks in a tiny 16x16 chunk world lol

[steep lion]

thats basically what bungeecord and velocity are in minecraft

you could call them very very stripped down version of minecraft server

[silver cloak]

500x500 blocks

[steep lion]

but to make things like that you need the game to release

[summer otter]

not completely true as with velocity and bungee you stay connected

[west elk]

Hytale chunks are 32x32

[steep lion]

wait i kinda misread it

[fiery heron]

But you wouldn't have that on day one..

[sharp lake]

exactly

[steep lion]

you can't really transfer to the vpn's local address lol

local address is literally visible within the (virtual) local network

[summer otter]

I think within 1 hour of the release you do

[silver cloak]

@random magnet drop the tech blog please ❤️

[steep lion]

hytale's transfer packet makes the client change what address its joining

[sharp lake]

that is a very small world

[fiery heron]

True that

[summer otter]

I thought it worked differently but maybe I misinterpreted it

[west elk]

awesome ping. very helpful lol

[sharp lake]

baba yaga is a troll, just ignore them
they've already been reported and probably warned for harassment lol

[normal dune]

So I think it's better to wait for the release and develop a plugin that handles all the redirection, like Bungee does.

[cedar bronze]

Yeah, let’s try

[silver cloak]

Yep 💯

[summer otter]

aaah okay, yeah I thought it would allow for a handshake from the current server as small mini proxy and then allow for ip change

but in that case you're correct and my approach wouldn't work

[steep lion]

i do want to code a discord chat integration plugin for hytale when it releases though
i might make the code public, but it wouldn't be super customizable (lots of things would be designed for my own server)

[scarlet spoke]

You mean, Discord Channel <-> Ingame chat?

[steep lion]

yea

[scarlet spoke]

I'd suggest you to make the plugin relative lightweight and rely on API server

[normal dune]

That’s not hard to do — you just have to deal with the webhooks.

[sharp lake]

yeah a chat bridge is going to be one of my first projects too

[steep lion]

yeah in fact i can already start working on it partially

to get the discord bot side of things working

then i can just hook join/quit events etc. to that later

[scarlet spoke]

Basically fake chat event and listen to sockets or webhooks

[steep lion]

i just need something quick right after hytale comes out so that chat moderation would be easier

[silver cloak]

What do u guys use for data storage? I use Mongo

[scarlet spoke]

Depends on your setup.
I use PostgreSQL for larger application with a lot of different data and MongoDB for web-based applications with frequent requests but with less data stored

[west elk]

Poketbase has been serving me very well the last 3 years

[cedar bronze]

Postgres ❤️
But depends on the use case

[steep lion]

MariaDB for personal familiarity

[normal dune]

Develop the API for the bot and set up the integration — the rest is just waiting for Hytale’s API to come out. I’m working on that too — it’s just the network part that really bothers me.

[silver cloak]

I like Postgre too but I am used to working with json files so mongo is my go to

[scarlet spoke]

Nowadays, you probably will never hit the limits of the database engine. So you are good to go to use any of them

Except textfiles, don't do that

[fringe ore]

Its gonna be a rough week. Hopfully nothing major crashes

[sterile robin]

Quick question — do we know how crafting works in Hytale yet? I’ve seen the inventory, but I still don’t get how you actually make items 😅

[west elk]

Yeah you can choose a db based on it's tooling and features, not performance

[normal dune]

On the Hytale server side, it’s just a matter of developing a simple plugin to integrate with the bot’s data. That’s how I’m doing it — keeping the bot and the plugin independent from each other. @steep lion

[scarlet spoke]

Items require different types of workbenches. You can't craft a iron sword on a wooden workbench, you probably need an anvil.
The complete logic is still not published yet, but it requires to explore the world to get more stuff for the other workbenches

[silver cloak]

W hytale

man so many things to do. I am curious about the custom ui editor

[steep lion]

im simply excited for the fact that we have the opportunity to find new things on our own

like when you make a minecraft smp you're just gonna get players with insane efficiency farm knowledge already burned into their brain

[fringe ore]

Exactly, gonna feel like a kid again lol discovering stuff they are keeping secret

[scarlet spoke]

I need to mention, that the crafting system is kinda superior, but a lot if items, which are already part of the game, might be useless, just bcs the crafting receipts are not finished or the item which you can craft with that, doesn't exist

[sterile robin]

wait a year XD

[steep lion]

and im pretty sure that will be even more fun with multiplayer

[scarlet spoke]

Don't forget, we're talking about Hypixel, they added tons of items to their gamemodes, the crafting receipt table is basically a dictionary with 1000 sites

[fringe ore]

Yup, just exploring to see if something new pops up

[summer ibex]

Will Hytale ever support SRV records? or is that not going to be possible?
A lot of this network talk makes zero sense to me.

[steep lion]

not on release, they couldn't add support for that due to limitations

[summer ibex]

Ic ok, thanks.

[west elk]

They don't know yet. The DNS library doesn't support it and they aren't sure if it's worth implementing from scratch

[scarlet spoke]

Thanks Microsoft

[sterile robin]

and i see Crazy variety of modders here — people working on everything from core gameplay to data stuff and even minigame and hosting 😄

[scarlet spoke]

They better add simple methods to System.Net.Dns for .NET 12

[steep lion]

im going to use mydomain[.]com (root) for the statically hosted website so i'd need play.mydomain[.]com for actually connecting to the server

until the SRV support is officially added

[midnight orbit]

You don’t have to

If you don’t specify port while connecting to server, game will automatically add port

[steep lion]

well for static hosting I would use cloudflare pages soo

the root domain cannot be pointed to the server's ip

[midnight orbit]

• only if websrtver is on same machine as game server

[silver cloak]

Deadass I want to see magic (the spells and staff working)

[midnight orbit]

For sure

[silver cloak]

They havent showcased magic at all. I wonder if it works

[sterile robin]

y you can have 3 one really small just for teleport and the 2 different server so if you need more power you can switch position and take new one

[midnight orbit]

Just host webserver on same dedicated machine, that’s all

[sterile robin]

y mabi in 0.0.0 is gonna make world crash but give them some time 😉

[steep lion]

honestly valid, response time might be a concern though

[silver cloak]

CAN'T WAIT!!!

[west elk]

tbf when you're at the scale where response time for your game server website is a concern, you have outgrown your friend's home server

[midnight orbit]

Exactly xD

[steep lion]

the web server would be placed at the gateway vps

[midnight orbit]

He lagged my brain with this message about response time tbh xD

[steep lion]

i mean i could route it to the backend machine though??

[west elk]

yeah i mean at the scale where it's a concern, you won't have the port limitations anymore

[steep lion]

well the difference is barely noticeable realistically

im thinking too much about potential issues, maybe i should stop that

[midnight orbit]

I think that you’re overcomplicating these all things fr

[west elk]

microoptimizations ✨

Verschlimmbessern

[sterile robin]

couse we actually in a step of speculation

[steep lion]

its not even related to hytale lol

its just about hosting a website

[midnight orbit]

Your speculations generate more potential problems than the technology they use itself lmao

[steep lion]

"what if my server suddenly gets extremely popular in an unrealistically short amount of time and my server explodes!"

[midnight orbit]

Fr it wont

[steep lion]

thats also sad to hear though

[midnight orbit]

Sorry to be realistic xD

[sterile robin]

go on aws and get a scalable solution 😉

[midnight orbit]

But even Andre said that there’s a lot to do about optimization in server, at start you won’t handle more than 30 players at once, with full world exploring

So don’t think too much about having large popular server

Atm

[sterile robin]

we was less on first beta of minecraft XD how the world is change alot in this years

[steep lion]

but not gonna lie thinking about unrealistic issues sometimes leads to learning an entirely new technology i didn't know of so its kinda fun

[west elk]

It scratches the Factorio optimization itch

[midnight orbit]

Yes, and then everyone had plenty of time to solve the problems that he now provides himself a week before early access

[steep lion]

theres a lot of cool solutions about scalability problem and i love learning about them

[midnight orbit]

For now, after all his messages, I come to the conclusion that the guy expects traffic at the level of several hundred players, which is unrealistic at the moment and nothing will change within a few months

[steep lion]

i gotta go make a logo for my server (it does not exist yet)

[midnight orbit]

The truth is that the game will be so buggy at the beginning that it will be difficult to play solo, and what about multiplayer? Even Simon reported this.

[sterile robin]

y maybe on the finish release

[midnight orbit]

That it’s better to not have good expectations and don’t even take day off from work because they think it won’t work even good at start xD

[sterile robin]

i got expectation to make some nice mode during the time

[midnight orbit]

If you think that after a week you will create a second Hypixel or a faction server for 200 players, add to that about a year of further work, I know what I'm talking about.

[sterile robin]

and a lot of money XD

[midnight orbit]

I remember when the first server supporting 100 players appeared in my country, it was impossible to play as if there were 10,000 players on the server at the same time today. Nothing worked for six months until the community came up with concrete optimization solutions.

Spigot and bungeecord turned out to be a milestone. I still remember RAM calculators that calculated how much RAM for how many plugins and how many players. It's funny now, but back then you calculated 200MB of RAM for ONE plugin. Those were the early days Minecraft era in 2011/2012.

[sterile robin]

10,000 players on the server, the think your are not in same server or istance thats why you can get it 100 in 3 4 chung is quite a lot for most of the game

[midnight orbit]

You're right, but I wrote it as a mental shortcut to emphasize the scale 😉

I just wanted to emphasize what the beginnings were like, obviously it will be easier now because we are getting solutions straight away from people who have worked on the servers.

[sterile robin]

y know think are more easy today , but we wanna it NOW!!

[midnight orbit]

And I’m 100% sure that optimization is their one of most important things atm

But we have to wait, don’t overthink about big scale servers

At this moment let’s just have fun about discovering all these new things

[sterile robin]

someone have to it 😉

[midnight orbit]

In Minecraft 2 heh

[sterile robin]

minecrat 1.5 we still gonna install java XD

[midnight orbit]

Isn’t client built with c++\c#? I got lost in those engine rewrites

Only server is probably Java

[sterile robin]

y server is java if i dont get it wrong

[midnight orbit]

Ya exactly

[sterile robin]

i just hate java but is probably my bad XD

[midnight orbit]

Bad memories with those Minecraft beggings

But it’s great technology for server sides

But today I wouldn't have thought that a game could be the beginning of my professional programming career ;p And probably the same with the entire Hypixel team 😁

[west elk]

And the Hytale/Hypixel team has some extensive experience with writing very performant server software in Java

[midnight orbit]

That’s right

Thanks to that, I have a good feeling, but we need to give them plenty of time to figure this out. They're now responsible not only for the server but also for the full-fledged client, which has a proprietary engine. There were some hiccups with it, including selling one project twice.

[vague sequoia]

folks, anyone wanna join Hyrinth development?
We want to make Hytale specific mod/plugin website that is forked from Modrinth

[sterile robin]

java dev are really a lot in the world, and they just wait to get a good occasion like hytale project 🙂

[midnight orbit]

That's why I'm trying to cool down the temper of that guy who's already figuring out load balancing because he wants to have a giant server or even a network of servers, he's preoccupied with something he won't have any influence on for the foreseeable future.

[vague sequoia]

Curseforge is propraitary, corporate place without plugin support, not The place for Hytale mods n plugins

[sterile robin]

sry i'more focus serch a bunch of makers to try to make some good moods

[silver cloak]

All I want is to put the minimap on the front screen

[silver bronze]

Makes modding easy + theres not really too many issues

[silver cloak]

I hope it’s a thing already

[sterile robin]

maybe you have to wait a couple of month before turn on the game XD

[midnight orbit]

It’s always a possible scenario, remember xD

[sterile robin]

i think v 0 .0 .0 is more like open unity then a real game XD if its on me

[silver cloak]

Maybe

[sterile robin]

couse its a early game access its not even a beta XD

[scarlet spoke]

UI relys on Noesis GUI elements, which can be modified

[still mist]

On 13th January Release, In game mod download is not available right? For mod players need to download Curseforge and then can join?

[scarlet spoke]

The game comes with all modding tools, built-in (except Blockbench, but's it's free to use)

[still mist]

I meant the mods which will be created by community

[scarlet spoke]

CurseForge is only a "trusted" source of mods. Doesn't mean you blindly should download any mod you find on CurseForge lol

[still mist]

In the long run, Hytale Doesn't need curseforge to download the mod afaik.

But I am saying, Is this implemented yet or its coming soon.

[scarlet spoke]

But you can also download it from Github repos, Discord servers focusing on creating advanced mods.

CurseForge only gathers all the sources together and make it more trustworthy by the community approving the mod being not harmful

So, if you find a mod on CurseForge in X months, with hundreds of reviews and downloads, you might be safe

[silver lynx]

you clearly don't know how CurseForge works. They don't gather anything, we devs upload to them. they scan for viruses. the community doesn't vote on the assets. they download them. if the content is good, they download them alot, that can be construed as a vote. some devs, the good ones at least, opensource their mods and link them to their content pages that curseforge gives them.

[upbeat storm]

I wouldn't recommend forking Modrinth

Also Rinth is trademark of Modrinth and they will defend it

[stone cedar]

idk why modrinth wouldnt try to also accomodate hytale if its popular enough

[cedar bronze]

Ah I see, you already done something like that, nice

[warm valve]

i'm more into basic server development/implementation to learn a few things and maybe then create a public server

[formal burrow]

hopefully we get the multipaper and folia devs on the hytale team

[formal burrow]

Rinth already pays mod authors very well from what I heard...

They aren't going to compete, the mod authors were barely being paid anything. No one is going to leave Modrinth or recommend another provider when they've been paying out the best

[upbeat storm]

Modrinth pays substantially less than CurseForge

People use Modrinth because it's awesome, not because of the pay

[crude meteor]

Me modding on thunderstore:
you guys are getting paid?

[stray pasture]

Don't worry, most modding is unpaid. 😄 - Minecraft is one of the few that you can actually make a career out of it.

[silver lynx]

the spigotmc guys are making money (plugins to servers), as well as the realms stores. I know both are minecraft, but what those two categories are doing isn't modding in the sense that end users download them and money is made according to a statistical share value. Meaning we can do the same with Hytale. They even alluded to this model in a blog post, they intend for us to host our stuff in much that same way that spigotmc authors do, using paywalls and the like, likely having crippled versions for free with fully enabled versions for a fee. granted someone out there is going to buy the one plugin and illegally share it. don't let that stop you, if you can sell 1000 copies of a version of your plugin for $10, do the math, even if 20k copies are illegally used. all you have to do is keep releasing updates to thwart the free users. yes, yes, that's a lot of work, the optifine guy is still doing great btw, despite him being cloned by various mods now.

[crude meteor]

Yeah I do it mostly for the love of whichever game im modding at the time but I wouldnt mind being tossed a few cents here and there lol

[silver lynx]

but definitely start with passion. my modding model for minecraft is passion + persistence and "oh my, I can make money from this?" = meaning if the money drops out I'll still be modding.

[stray pasture]

Modding at least has better potential than indie game dev at least! By a LARGE margin!

But yeah, Spigot is in my mind considered modding, even things like Warframe Build sites. - They can make money, but Minecraft has careers, software engineers getting 130K/yr is very rare. If non existant in the modding scene.

But Hytale is built off of the same concept and platform that Minecraft grew, monitization isn't frowned upon. You just need to gain the success and recongistion to pay.

Look at Vintage Story though, you don't have the same success Minecraft had and yet they are geared towards the same ideas.

[crude meteor]

Ehh idk, to me they are both very volatile. Well Im coming from a different place where I only got some donations and whatnot while modrinth paid mc moddevs so I get ya. To me this whole scene is going to be pretty new from pretty much every aspect but Im looking forward to it. Planning to do a big project (well with a lot of if’s lol) with a few peeps but we all just wanna see the game how we could expand on it.

[hazy gazelle]

question about programming in hytale: I heard stuff about custom UI being possible. but I also heard that client scripting is unsupported (eg: external loader such as melon or w/e) how is custom UI done in hytale then?

[limber mica]

Dumb question, Since mods are server side, can’t hytale host the mods and inject them directly into the paying customers servers via api and that way protect the source code ?

[stray pasture]

Data driven it sounds. The server delivers the content nessasary, we can't run anything that can be "Executed" for security reasons on the client. As long as the server can define it we are good though.

[stray pasture]

They could, but they very likely won't. (Your talking about a registry of some sort)? - You subscribe to a plugin and it automatically adds it to your server? - This can be done even outside of Hytale, but it is infrastructure that sounds unessasary

[hazy gazelle]

so what about making a custom UI with a triangle grid with snap to grid to connect dots?

[stray pasture]

Unsure how far you can take the UI. - They stated they built an ECS, if they use it for primitives you have a lot of power with the client still being responsive, otherwise I could take stabs in the dark but that is my best guess.

[silver lynx]

I'm getting $600 during the holiday season monthly from cf and $50 from mr. I have a sponsor too, where I'm nearly matching that.

same mods are are cf and mr

[stray pasture]

I have zero clue what this means. 😄

[silver lynx]

that's my monthly take for my 20+ mods for minecraft that are hosted on both platforms.

[hazy gazelle]

cause if I wanna port hexcasting to hytale I would need to make the staff-ui (which is... yknow the ONLY UI in the entire mod) (I tried 3 times to link it... no dice)

[stray pasture]

Wow that is livable! - Not great and barely functioning livable but survivable. 😄

[silver lynx]

especially in bfe with a paid off house and car, and no kiddos or wife

[stray pasture]

Oh, well I guess the link obfuscation got smart... (I got flagged doing what most do. :D)

[hazy gazelle]

I cant even post a image here of what UI I would be trying to make...

[silver lynx]

so i just tablulated my taxes, pulled 23k last year from minecraft efforts, (grossed is what I mean my pulled).

yes, i've slightly left something out of the equation but it's not hard to figure out what it is

[old moon]

Would be intersting to make a MOBA in hytale

[silver lynx]

considering the plugin they showcased on X by one of their internal testers turned it into a roguelike survival. I think that would be very doable, the MOBA that is.

[old moon]

Yeah since we have the luxury of easily adjusting the camera angle

[silver lynx]

the way it paused tho while the player chose an upgrade boggled me. making me think, the server can made to act like the compute engine for a singleplayer game.

[old moon]

Yeah it's going to be sick!

[silver lynx]

hmm, i see we can't share links on here.

the X post by Simon_Hypixel shows off the roguelike survival plugin. at the 24 second mark the server pauses while an upgrade is chosen.

meaning we could probably make a tower defense, or even a lane defense plugin

[stone cedar]

id think you can prob make most if not all kinds of games

[stray pasture]

Now lets not make assumptions here. 😄 - What if 99% of the effort was the camera? 😂

[silent quiver]

Hi guys already have a website to see the plugins created?

[wheat rose]

Any PvP servers coming on EA, or any duel servers?.

I have 0 faith in good PvP servers if the game can’t handle over 100-200 people. But maybe duels can be fun.

[sacred tulip]

I have 0 faith in good PvP servers if the game can't handle over 100-200 people

What kind of PvP has 100+ players

[boreal radish]

in a fight? rarely
in general on the server? populars ones ig

[wheat rose]

In the server ofc.

[silent quiver]

? if not exist i will create a forum to the community

[formal burrow]

most of the money I believe comes from people getting repeat buyers/long term relationships with certain owners

the people who made donutSMP actually did attempt to lend goliath to people but no one really wanted to use it, I have no idea how much DonutSMP's devs are being paid but they are the only people who can do what they do

so I suspect they are getting paid quite a bit by DrDonut

[rose atlas]

We love hytale

[young nova]

I plan to make a pvp/pve server. But day one won't be like a put together server. But I am not sure I have seen a 20v20 on pvp servers. I have seen like 10-20 people attack a base and it has like maybe 5-10 people online. But 100v100 is like that youtube scripted stuff.

[sharp lake]

Lots of examples, with even a few on Hypixel
"Mega Walls" where you have 4 quadrants and a ton of players in each one on teams
Plus they have "The Pit" which is like, an endless PvP arena thing

[boreal radish]

ooh yeah i have heard of people planning to make mega walls in hytale

and that is like 100 players (altho on hypixel it rarely gets above 60 now)

[sharp lake]

Hytale will have a bit of novelty, especially with the different combat
So it'll probably thrive for a little while

[foggy gate]

Yo I've read the blog post about modding and in short tldr does it mean that server plugins essentially are like mods that are requested from the server when joining one?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, sort of
The behaviour is handled server-side, but assets are sent to the client
And assets will be like models, textures, some UI related things probably
And some very basic scripts for things like movement prediction and all that

[foggy gate]

Interesting with the intention of not supporting client mods. I really hope all the tools for making mods and docs will be available on the release day, people already posting mods they made make me jealous

[sharp lake]

We won't have docs or full source on day 1
But they have it planned

And by day 1, we do mean early access
Full release is set at least 2 years out, emphasis on "at least"

[foggy gate]

ah dang it, that sucks

[stuck prism]

Yes I do. I guess way hard to explain. But its an every game compatible API that can be used in thousands of ways

[misty gyro]

but there will be a post AFAIK on day 1 for modding or plugins

[merry rover]

I’m prototyping a small server-side experiment around behavior-driven progression (no talent trees, coarse-grained sampling, mutations decoupled from ticks).
I’m keeping it very narrow and technical.
If anyone is interested in discussing or poking at a prototype, feel free to reply or DM.

[foggy gate]

I really hope so

[ivory rock]

In the trailer there's a part that shows a massive battle between players

[still mist]

Isn’t the game focused on pvp combat?

[stuck prism]

what if... events caused pvp combat

[icy pivot]

hey guys, dm me if you are interested in a mega walls hytale remake 😄 i will invite. currently 125+ members

[vast dune]

Hi everyone! Regarding the launch on Jan 13, 2026: will the multiplayer APIs be available on day one? Also, will they support plugins and mods right from the start? Thanks!

[west elk]

Yes! :)

[astral granite]

Hi guys, is there any OAuth available for integrating Hytale yet, or do we still need to wait? It would be useful to prepare at least a backend login for server websites.

[west elk]

No OAuth yet. But it's on their radar

[misty gyro]

Btw with the v2 world generator one of our ideas now is that we may use procedural generated maps for specific minigames to make things spicier because no round will be the same

[silver cloak]

W

[silver cloak]

Day 1 yes. We will get an unobfuscated .jar

[mellow imp]

Do we already know if a plugin like ProtocolLib will be something possible in Hytale ?

[west elk]

Why do you think it would be necessary?

[hot river]

You dont need a plugin like ProtocolLib. Hytale will support these features natively

[mellow imp]

I'm preparing a game system for a plugin / mod and it requires a Fog of War for some players, not everyone. Therefore i need a way to intercept the packets between the server and the client to make checks and run actions depending on the checks

[summer otter]

Since everything is deobfuscated it's quite straight forward and therefore won't need protocol lib

[mellow imp]

Fair enough

[summer otter]

and if packet manipulation turns out to be harder than expected then we will see tools appearing for it for sure

[mellow imp]

I hope so

[grizzled egret]

Is it already known which config file format Hytale servers will use? toml, yaml, json? And more specifically if they decided on which library they'll use

If I remember they did post something about it but cannot find it

[west elk]

Asset definitions are json so a json parser will be there by default, but you can ship any text parsing library of your preference with your plugin

[grizzled egret]

Yea, so they probably using Gson then. Reason for this question is due to in MC the default being Yaml for which Paper has adopted the configurate library of sponge

[jolly relic]

Gson is a good one

(I have a Google Mobile)

[grizzled egret]

Yeah, I absolutely adore Gson

[west elk]

I think .json is not a good option for user-facing plugin config files since it doesn't support comments

[grizzled egret]

These are more for internal usage

[blissful granite]

I'm just hoping there are good plugins for chat and /roll commands since I am wanting to start a medieval rp server.

[grizzled egret]

Just today I created a Repo for a Core plugin for my server network project

trying to get some things like Db management out of the way asap, furthermore I'd have to wait since I have absolutely no idea how the API architecture looks

For that I'd need documentation + source code diving

[wispy anchor]

We're all in the same boat, waiting for that server jar 😄

[sonic berry]

I'd take access to the ecs library before hand to get familiar with it 😅

[grizzled egret]

They reverted back to their own ECS library right? Since Flecs was for the engine rewrite in c++

[misty gyro]

True

[misty gyro]

Jop they use their old Engine

[grizzled egret]

I am really hoping Slikey is able to release server documentation soon

[misty gyro]

Personally I don’t Like database Stuff on Game Servers

[grizzled egret]

Well its basically for server network, data sync. That db will be used for stats, bans, economy etc

Already have a design concept in mind. Having a Core plugin that allows more game specific servers to hook into it. But using the same DB and the core plugin managing migrations and database access. + Core will include punishment and the more essentials like functions for moderation

[heady bronze]

I have questions in which language are plugins going to be writen?

[west elk]

Anything JVM-compatible

[heady bronze]

So it will be same as for Minecraft plugins

[west elk]

correct!

[heady bronze]

So If i get this right hytale will have there own api for plugins not something like paper or spigot.

[west elk]

Correct, Hytale will natively support plugins, so an external plugin loader will not be necessary

[steep lion]

i wonder if there will be something similar to Fabric Language Kotlin for hytale plugins

to be honest i dont understand why you need Fabric Language Kotlin when kotlin compiles to jvm bytecode

[west elk]

as I understand it, kotlin comes with a bunch of utils that are extra

[silver cloak]

Machinima blog dropping tomorrow

[grizzled egret]

Yea thats video creator tool tho

Not technical documentation which I am waiting for

[silver cloak]

Yeah 😞

[wispy anchor]

From posts, they're publicly announced that the documentation will be extremely limited on day1, with proper documentation coming 1-2months after release.

However, they are releasing the un-obfuscated server jar, so you can decompile it and see how things work

[somber widget]

When will Pterodactyl Eggs be released? Also is it not recommended to start a long term Exploration Server during Early Access? (Atleast During Orbis V1)

[silver cloak]

The community will rush to create documentation as well

[wispy anchor]

They've confirmed that your existing V1 Orbis worlds will be compatible with V2. Just that when V2 launches, new chunks will generate with V2 rather than V1. Your existing chunks remain untouched

[somber widget]

That isn't how it was listed in their World Gen Post. They said:

Once completed [Orbis V2], V2 will become the primary world generator, and you will enter the new world of Orbis. V1 will eventually stop generating chunks, but your old V1 worlds will still be accessible.

[misty gyro]

So let the FFA begin at day1 who can reverse engineer it faster / decompile and find the best APIs directly xD

[wispy anchor]

That's exactly what I've just described haha

[somber widget]

I don't think you read it. It said V1 will eventually Stop Generating Chunks and you will need to enter a new world to get new chunks from V2

Tbf, it is worded in a way where honestly both sound like the intended meaning.

We'll just have to see on if they do a 1.17 -> 1.18 approach or do a dimension/world/alternatives approach I guess. Makes the world more unique i guess if you have two orbis's

[wispy anchor]

Ah, yeah. Re-reading it, I do see it that way as well. A little confusing then!!

[swift bane]

Any devs ready for helping to create a server? (job would be paid)

[simple stirrup]

I can

[wispy anchor]

I'm planning on it, yes

[safe skiff]

Are there any javadocs for Hytale API and manuals how to create a server?

[wispy anchor]

No, not yet.

They will be releasing basic docs on day 1, but are also including an unobfuscated server.jar file so you can decompile and take a look at how things work

[boreal heart]

👍

[cedar bronze]

Anyone here who would like to join a team of people to create a survival server (including needed mods, etc.)? Shoot me a dm

[gilded quarry]

Let's do it

[misty gyro]

not right now

[static whale]

i would try

[wheat rose]

Where

[midnight orbit]

Dm

[sterile robin]

im a developer c# java javascripts dart .. im searching for a group “if is well formed is better” to develop my and other idea dm me in case

[ancient venture]

Is there a docker container to host a server on my Unraid installation?

[cedar bronze]

Not yet, but i am sure some people will dockerize the server (myself included) as soon as it is available

[silver lynx]

there must be, because BisectHosting which uses Pterodactyl game panels, which in turn use docker under the hood has Hytale ready to go on the 13th.

my guess is the big hosting companies were likely given a copy of the server to get things ready for release.

[west elk]

it's literally just a .jar

[sterile robin]

Arm is supported on first release ?

[sterile robin]

Y fore sure they drop some email

[west elk]

docker run -it --rm openjdk:25-slim /bin/sh -c "apt-get update && apt-get install -y curl && curl -L <hytale-download-cdn>/HytaleServer.jar -o HytaleServer.jar && java -jar HytaleServer.jar"

[cedar bronze]

Maybe some additional setup is required, or is there already detailed information about that?

[sterile robin]

And prob you had to add someting to Expose your port

[west elk]

true -p 5520:5520

[west elk]

Detailed server hosting guide will be released soon but for a simple server to play on, it's really not complicated 👍

[sterile robin]

And if you put your link to your machine on website add some protection spam ecc

[west elk]

Would like to look into fail2ban rules specifically for Hytale. That sounds interesting

[stray pasture]

I have fail2ban, treafik, and authelia for a full docker based setup (portable makes it look pretty)

But I wonder how Hytale will like to be in containers. It would be fantastic for instancing. Hope it plays nice.

[fringe ore]

How many MB will this jar be 👀

[lunar portal]

i dont think it will be much , game size is 8gb and server jar is probably headless , so probably around 1GB

unless you mean smth else, then i dunno

[bleak plover]

where do i get the .jar file for the server btw?

[wispy anchor]

It'll release when the game releases

[bleak plover]

make sense

yh that would not make sense

[west elk]

Minecraft's .jar is 56 MB. What makes you think that Hytale's with 20 years less content is 18x that?

maybe if the vanilla asset pack is coming from the server every time

[prime shell]

mmm yes downloading gigabytes of assets every time you join a server 🤪 that would be great design

[wispy anchor]

PTSD to gmod days lmao

[lunar portal]

just being careful with info i give, i did expect it to be about 100mb maximum (maybe they work with constricted space), also idk what they will include in there

[prime shell]

and even gmod would mostly use stock assets from the game & old source games (which is why there would be ERRORs everywhere for new players)

[wispy anchor]

Ah yes, the requirement to have HL2 source... Good ol' days

[rich solar]

Ahh !source days

[prime shell]

The requirement to legally acquire HL2 textures you mean 🏴‍☠️

[wispy anchor]

"legally" mhmhmhmhmmhm

[rich solar]

Oh yeah. Everyone knows !cc !source were legal downloads cough cough

[boreal radish]

dont you just need the game
i remember having trouble in gmod because i dont have tf2

and like legally hl2 is free like half the time

[rich solar]

Yeah you either had to own the games and had them downloaded or download content packs

[wispy anchor]

You just needed the source files iirc. You could "aquire" said files yourself without buying the game

[boreal radish]

sure but if the game is free
admittedly i still dont have tf2 but

[wispy anchor]

Longgggg time ago lmao

[prime shell]

So, who is creating the first server plugin with legal source-game textures?

[wispy anchor]

It was specifically HL2 iirc

[wispy anchor]

Does a hello world script count? lmao

[boreal radish]

sure

[prime shell]

A server filled with ERROR textures everywhere would also work

[rich solar]

Most of the servers we did were TTT so CS:source was needed

[boreal radish]

if you can write hello world you know how to do some things

i never was big into multiplayer gmod, i only joined like a server for the achievement (which i didnt need to do anyway i got the multiplayer achievements in singleplayer because gmod is a blursed game)

[static eagle]

TL;DR: Do we know if something like client-issued digital signatures will be a thing?

I'm planning to develop a system in which the clients should communicate with my server, but as client side scripting won't be a thing I will have to send my messages over the server the player is on. This would open up a whole can of worms, as this server could just act as a Man-in-the-Middle, and thus could also attack my server in the end / send forged messages towards my server. For this reason, a way of letting the clients sign a message such that a specific public key can verify the message would be helpful in this case.
Or are there any other options on how the client can safely communicate with my server / send requests to my server that a bad actor can't just forge using the player's identity?

[west elk]

I don't understand what you're trying to do, lol

[prime shell]

So your goal in short is E2EE/signing? That would all depend on your ability to execute code on the client side, ie a mod rather than a server plugin.

Your idea requires at minimum that the client can execute code to sign. If you can execute code for that, you should have the same abilities to do sth like diffie-helman to create keys for this purpose.

[west elk]

Isn't quic traffic already encrypted?

[near raptor]

QUIC sets up a TLS connection right?

So you are safe from mitm attacks, but you have 0 control over the client. Nothing would stop a client from being modified and send forged messages as far as I can see it.

[frigid basalt]

A team of developer work to create a framework for mods if the server api is not enough ?

If i understand hytale is only server side mod no client mod

[rich solar]

I doubt this will be possible. Due to how they want their clients done. We will not be able to excecute code on client side.

[prime shell]

that's just your communication between client<->server, sounds like alex wants client1<->server<->client2 without the server being able to intercept & fake (a-la-E2EE)

[static eagle]

In short: I want to develop a server-wide guild system, i.e. the user can form guilds on any server that has my plugin installed and communicate / interact over multiple servers with eachother. To achieve this, communication has (in my mind) to happen via some sort of websocket / pubsub architecture, i.e. an additional server on my side.

Now: afaik hytale will not support client-side modding, such that the client can directly communicate with my API server. This means, I will have to let the server be the proxy for the client, which will enable a bad-acting server to just send forged messages to my API server (such as: player XYZ said, that he wants to delete his guild). For this reason, I would have to have some sort of guarantee, that the client has issued this message. But for this, client side scripting is required, or nah?

[cedar bronze]

Is the network protocol based on quic?

[prime shell]

oh even worse
client1<->server1<->master-server<->server2<->client2

[near raptor]

I don't see a way that would work

[west elk]

Correct, you have to trust your api consumers (Hytale servers) to be truthful, lol. Someone malicious could even edit the plugin you provide to interact with your master server

[west elk]

yes

[static eagle]

Yep, that's the situation I'm stuck at right now... And I believe there aren't any other options besides client-side scripting, or do any of you have any other ideas perhaps?

[rich solar]

Assuming this is based on hypixel mc server. Cross server communication should be do-able. The guild side and management side would be done via auth with hytale and managing the data side it in a db? That would be a workable solution I assume.

[prime shell]

authentication per command from the client, with a password entered by the user lol

you'd have to send a salt from the master-server to the game-server, where the salt also depends on the command etc
the UX flow would be ASS of course

[clear crow]

Curious. When a player joins the server. Do they download and have access to all of the .jar files when they join? Allowing them to distribute it essentially if they wanted to?

[west elk]

The way to do it would be to have servers that want to integrate with you do request an api key so you can ban them from your network if they misbehave

[near raptor]

Your master server / API can have a private key and distribute a public key, such that all requests are to be signed with that public key. The problem here is that the client has to sign off the request, not the server that the client is connected to, in order for it to be trustworthy.

But for that to work, code must be executed on the client

Or well, the client has to sign off with its private key, I have it flipped around

[static eagle]

But in that case, the server would still be able to access the users password, as commands are processed server side, or not?

[prime shell]

I'd sure friggin hope not lmao, that would be some bad design

[near raptor]

I am not sure what the client would do with .jar files, it doesn't run on Java

[rich solar]

We wouldnt be sending them jar. Just assets

[west elk]

No, the client only downlods "asset packs". Textures, models, animations, sounds, ui configs, etc

[clear crow]

I agree. I plan on making a mod and whitelisting anyone who supports it's development on my patreon, that would be a huge L.

[prime shell]

yes, but only for the 1 command
the client would have to enter something that combines their password with the request

either way it would be rather complicated and a TERRIBLE experience for the user

[clear crow]

Oh thank God. Thank you for confirming that.

[static eagle]

Meh... Sadly, that seems to be the only way of achieving my goal... Which would in return prolly take an impact on popularity of the mod and thus "widespreadness" on different servers...

sigh... client-side modding would make so many things much easier, but they have their reasons ig

[west elk]

Yeah. In Hytale, the server is the overall authority

[prime shell]

security lol
don't want clients on all servers to become bitcoin miners, or breach containment and gain root privileges

[near raptor]

If the server would send over code to be executed in a non-sandboxed environment as a jar, that's opening the door to viruses in a way Minecraft mods would be jealous of

[prime shell]

RCE as a feature 🧠

[near raptor]

Exactly

[static eagle]

nah, I'm fully on your side on that. Never ever should the server be able to send executable code (because of mentioned reasons). But client side mods the clients themselves can download... Like Minecraft in that case

But in return, cheats would be much easier again then, and probably other things the team is fond of not having to deal with otherwise. So I can understand both sides here-

[naive imp]

Start in server will be dangerous? I say this for the auto instalation of mods with possible malware

[near raptor]

User experience is also a big reason against client-side mods. If you can just connect with the same unmodified client to all servers and have a completely different (modded) experience in those servers, that is pretty amazing.

[rich solar]

Also allowing full chat/guild interaction with any server running that mod would be hell for admins to manage. As it wouldn't be players only in their server communicating.

[near raptor]

Mods don't automatically install themselves on the server

[rich solar]

Also an infected payload that infects a server wont infect a client.

[stone cedar]

good that you remind me that i should prob prepare a dockerfile and some mount folders for it

should prob also move mc/vintagestory into a docker container

[static eagle]

True that, I haven't thought about that this far. My idea for now would have been to chat with each other over a guild chat (i.e. isolated chat), and probably join each other via transfer packets - with servers being able to switch on and off features via an API my mod would provide

[prime shell]

we shall run these servers like average minecraft server admins: as root, of course

[naive imp]

Simon say yes to the respect.

The mods of a server will self-install so that you can see all the content

[rich solar]

I feel as a backend for a private RPG server would be great. As a public mod maybe not. Could be interesting tho.

[stone cedar]

i mean you do you lol.... future log4j-esque exploits will love you

[near raptor]

I don't think I fully understand your question then. If you launch a server, mods don't magically appear out of thin air and install themselves. You have to install mods yourself to the server, so you're in charge.

[west elk]

Asset packs will auto download. Not mods/plugins. That is the difference. Asset packs can't be dangerous

[rich solar]

CVE exploit warning in 2 years will say differently

[west elk]

Someone making a self-executing .png, LOL

[near raptor]

Asset packs should not be dangerous, they only contain textures, models, audio, etc.. but no code to be executed.

[near raptor]

Some Log4Shell shennanigans going on maybe

[naive imp]

Yes, on my server, but if someone creates a server and places malware on it, when I enter that server I will be in danger

[near raptor]

No

[stone cedar]

yeah nintendo thought the same when including an mp3 player in their 3ds and suddenly a single mp3 file could hack the system

[prime shell]

no, not unless the client ends up having a massive security flaw

[static eagle]

I think ima stay on that layer for now then, and probably develop such a plugin
Thanks to everyone for the discussion here!

[near raptor]

I mean that possibility is always there. Someone thought it'd be a good idea that a log message (of text sent by another player) can download and execute code on your machine. So of course we'd have to trust Hytale that you cannot specify e.g. a URL or some other payload and disguise it as an audio file or model and have it somehow be parsed and run.

[sterile robin]

No couse is sendboxed with the game can exit from the box

[naive imp]

If the mods are not downloaded and used from the server this means that a server of many mods will perform worse with bad internet than one without mods, right?

[near raptor]

Maybe on first join, as you need to download the assets, but other than that it shouldn't have much of an impact as the protocol remains the same, modded or not.

[stone cedar]

well in the case i referenced, if we transplant and apply that to assets in hytale it would mostly rely on whatever libraries/codecs hytale uses to not have bufferoverflows/underflows etc that could be exploited.

[rich solar]

Kind of. It depends on what the mods are doing. asset content shouldn't add too much strain. But animation/movement tick systems will

[near raptor]

It's a bit like having a server with 2 people on it or having a server with 20 people on it. There might be a lot more packets going back and forth to communicate on the location of all 20 players, whereas a server with noone on it doesn't. But I think that is probably neglectable.

[sterile robin]

You know if sere ver can run in arm architetture ?

[static eagle]

From what I understood, you will never ever download executable code (that's the plan at least). All code logic is fully isolated on the server side, and the server will execute code logic. You will only download cosmetical things such as textures, sounds, etc.
These files will then probably get cached for some period such that you only have to incrementally download files if you rejoin - i hope at least

[stone cedar]

this actually goes for basically any game btw. but most of the time games use established libs/codecs that well.... make it unlikely for exploits to be found that are super critical

[west elk]

It runs in the JVM so it's platform independent

[rich solar]

As long as you can run JVM you should be able to run the server

[prime shell]

Runs in Java, so as long as your SDK runs it should be fine
there may be some small caveats with native libs, but that's all unknown

[stone cedar]

does java even ship pure JREs anymore?

[prime shell]

Oracle? no, just reference specs

[rich solar]

Adoptium is what I use rn

[near raptor]

Java/Oracle ships you to the tools to build your own JRE if I am not mistaken. Noone uses these, people just download pre-built JREs that have sensible configuration.

[stone cedar]

sad that openjdk and oracle only do jdks that technically include the jre anyway

[sterile robin]

I’ve got an rasberry 16 ram i think I can run for me and a couple o friend

[prime shell]

OpenJDK masterrace

[near raptor]

Hm, not sure. Hytale might be CPU-heavy and a Raspberry Pi's CPU is kinda meh.

[rich solar]

Imma use a zimboard for a local instance myself. But public servers are going to be on my game server.

[prime shell]

storage might also be an issue, last time I messed with a Pi it only had a slow SD-card

[near raptor]

OpenJDK died ages ago

[stone cedar]

why are they still shipping builds then

[prime shell]

wut? I'm running OpenJDK 23-25 docker images as we speak

[near raptor]

I mean, the first thing on the Dockerhub of openjdk is a deprecation note

Stating you should not use it and look for alternatives

[stone cedar]

doesnt just that mean the docker images are deprecated

[sterile robin]

Is not worth give a try?

[rich solar]

This image is officially deprecated and all users are recommended to find and use suitable replacements ASAP. Some examples of other Official Image alternatives (listed in alphabetical order with no intentional or implied preference):

    amazoncorretto
    eclipse-temurin
    ibm-semeru-runtimes
    ibmjava
    sapmachine

[near raptor]

Yes they are, it literally states to look for alternatives like temurin

[prime shell]

🤔 guess I should make the switch to corretto, I've had good experiences with those as well

[stray bane]

adoptium is my fav

[rich solar]

I use corretto or adoptium. Prefer adoptium

[stone cedar]

guess ill just make my own openjdk 27 slim image then

[near raptor]

Nah, use Eclipse Temurin, it's pretty much the go-to these days

[stone cedar]

old man sticks to what they know

[rich solar]

eclipse-temurin is adoptium btw for those who dont know

[near raptor]

Indeed

[stone cedar]

so debian and openjdk will be what imma use for as long as both exist

[near raptor]

If you wanna live on the edge and don't care about security patches, be my guest :p

[rich solar]

If you are building it yourself. Not really a big deal

[stray bane]

Alpine and Adoptium is what all my java containers use.

[stone cedar]

i mean ill gladly take a link to sources that state openjdk doesnt get patches anymore (sources with some credibility at least not just a discord user saying so)

[rich solar]

I built auto scalling deployment on my bare-metal running pelican with alpine and adoptium being used for the scalers. Lol

[near raptor]

I was referring to the OpenJDK Docker image, OpenJDK itself still exists I think

[stray bane]

I made my own pelican using the wings daemon

No reason at all, just because i can

[rich solar]

Fair enough haha

[stray bane]

Shoddy work, would never use for production

[sterile robin]

Is not worth give a try ?

[stone cedar]

and as i said i will make my own images

[near raptor]

Of course it is worth a try!

[stray bane]

Always worth a try!

[near raptor]

I also have a little Raspberry Pi Kubernetes cluster at home with 4 nodes, gonna see if a Hytale server can run on it for local development purposes.

[stray bane]

If I am correct, Oracle makes the references and OpenJDK makes it into a working spec then every other company optimizes it and security patches. Could be wrong.

[near raptor]

Yes, something along those lines

[sterile robin]

Oh nice

[stray bane]

Confusing asf for no reason.

[near raptor]

You can build the JRE with a lot of parameters, I think that things like Temurin, Coretto, Liberica, etc. are created from there, and then packaged in a Docker image with some OS and tooling in it.

[prime shell]

yes, with extra confusion: OpenJDK is a unit kinda owned/operated-by Oracle... but it's not quite Oracle itself

• allows for external contributors I think

[near raptor]

Some might run Alpine, some might run on Redhat, some might have their own Debian-based OS, some contain lots of tooling, some contain not even curl.

[west elk]

Temurin, Coretto, etc are the builds of the jdk. OpenJDK is the underlying source code for all of them

[sterile robin]

Still Java sheets

[stray bane]

Then you got oracle, still supporting Java 8.

[near raptor]

Cuz companies pay good money to keep running on Java 8.

Because why spend the time and effort updating your Java, right

[stray bane]

IBM offers it for free if you have a IBM mainframe lol

That is the reason all of our computers at work uses it.

[prime shell]

gimme G1/Z

[near raptor]

It's a bit like Microsoft killing Windows 10, lots of companies panicking, and Microsoft then being the "good guy" to offer extended Windows 10 support for a small fee

[sterile robin]

For money you will doo the same, all bank sheet are in Java 8

[stray bane]

Windows 11 IOT LTSC is the same as Windows 10 basically 😉

[fringe ore]

I dont know much about security with running a server.

What things should I consider, especially if self hosting hytale?

[near raptor]

And the kind of companies / orgs to be slow to update, like banks and governments, have infinite pools of money anyways

[sterile robin]

You host your server or buy space?

[stray bane]

Containerize everything and ensure it runs completely seperate and without root where possible. Make sure you only open the needed ports and make sure you have a proper firewall configuration in place.

[fringe ore]

Thinking about going through a host, but debating doing it on private pc

[near raptor]

I think most of the Linux best-practises for security apply if you run it yourself. Don't open unnecessary ports, have your firewall be set up properly to only accept traffic on the Hytale port, disable password-based root authentication to your server and do everything via SSH keys, set up additional 2FA to log in via SSH if you desire so, keep things updated, etc.

[sterile venture]

this is kinda a longer answer that needs to be considered but generally never run your application as root, open only the ports you need

[fringe ore]

So container is best practice?

[sterile venture]

for a lot of reasons yes

[near raptor]

Containerizing also helps with portability, so generally speaking not a bad idea.

[sterile venture]

helps with scaling, security, ease of use so many nice things you get

[west elk]

Don't give any of your plugins root access to your database. If another plugin is compromised, it will read all plugin configs to find credentials

[stray bane]

Yes but it is not perfect so keep that in mind. It still has security issues but prevents alot of issues.

[rich solar]

My friend runs a small pc with pterodactyl/pelican on it to manage his game servers. And this is a crappy 16gb laptop. So that is an option lol

[fringe ore]

Looks like paying for a server is easiest lol

[fringe ore]

Awh ok ok

[stray bane]

Old computer is my server, 3700x, 32gb of ram, 1tb nvme in raid.

[sterile venture]

adding on to this, each connection to your DB should be its own table and credentials for max security. That way if plugin A is compromised, it cant access a table for another plugin since its a different auth

[fringe ore]

Yeah i have a low range older gaming pc, I was thinking of using

[stray bane]

Base OS is alpine because I hate myself then I containerize everything.

[rich solar]

Lets go! I have two old servers I took from a school. And then have a bare-metal with IONOS

[sterile venture]

yes or getting a sys admin lol. I am working on a console that allows hosting and might support hytale

[stray bane]

I used IONOS at one point but switched to reliablesite for a dedicated as it made alittle more sense. Then just went self hosting and setup a GRE tunnel.

[summer otter]

Leefy I wouldn't worry to much about the security breaches as long as you don't install random mods that are not trustworthy, and or give random access to your server

[sterile venture]

I would slightly disagree with this if you own the server hardware. Linux hardening is a skill of its own

[rich solar]

That is def a way to do it. Im going to use the IONOS as the primary system and then my local servers will be nodes for it.

[summer otter]

yes it's good practice to use containers especially to scale up

[sterile venture]

also, even hosted providers like AWS wont harden it for you

[summer otter]

but if it's a hobby project, I wouldn't worry to much about it

[sterile venture]

this isnt a good mindset to get into, cause if it ever becomes more than a hobby your redoing work at a minium

[rich solar]

If it touches the internet. Should worry about it

[stray bane]

Basically all you really need to do is

• Setup SSH security (SSH KEY)
• Update the system every once in a while
• Containerize everything
• Make daily backups to your computer
• Dont install sus mods or packages (always remember, offical sources and if it might be too good to be true)

[fringe ore]

Thats fair lol, I am technically a beginner plugin/modder even tho I have made a few technical plugins for paper and advanced behavior addons for bedrock. I rely on ai too much is all

[prime shell]

Disagree, there will be salty kids trying to attack even the smallest of servers, as they did to MC servers

[stray bane]

If it even exists then you should worry about it lol

[summer otter]

I get the critique from both of you, but you can't teach a beginner sys admin everything at once so let them have their fun and learn a bit one step at a time

[rich solar]

Printer beeps loads gun

[sterile venture]

if this is truly the case it should be local and not on a server or on the internet, until you get to the point you understand basic security

[summer otter]

and from there they can always expand

[summer otter]

with attack you mean (D)DOS? Or do you mean vulnerabilities for remote access

[fringe ore]

How would I do this?

I could ask ai, but prefer a straight answer then 10 different possible solutions

[stray bane]

Hosting it urself isnt that hard, just requires the tinkering, there is alot of discord servers out there for sysadmin support and are willing to teach people on the basics and review work.

[prime shell]

I meant access, but you know they are going to do both lol

[thorny minnow]

Will we be able to create mods/plugins from day one?

[rich solar]

Yes

[near raptor]

I once had a tiny MongoDB server that had only one document in it on a public VPS to experiment with (no production data or anything), and it still got broken into after 1 week due to me leaving it open without password protection. Noone knew about the VPS because it was just a playground for me to mess around in. But automated tooling located it and "hacked" it. So yeah, even if you get something on a shared host, expect constant automated attempts to break in.

[thorny minnow]

Is there documentation already published or no?

[rich solar]

No

[fringe ore]

Honestly, I took a cyber class once and died inside.. so many permissions and Linux stuff I had to learn. Forgot it all by now, but nah I dont thrive there lol

[summer otter]

Leefy if you're willing to learn the community here is quite helpful and I will make a hytale guide. But don't worry to much even if others disagree idc but have fun while you tinker with your mods you make and later start your own server

[stray bane]

I was using a unsecure and public facing mongodb for some development purposes for a discord bot and had to reset the database every 5 minutes because it kept getting compromised.

[prime shell]

it took a worthless empty SQL db of mine about 3 hours of being exposed to the internet with a default root password (empty, dev experimentation)
instantly cleared out, with a message to pay some BTC lol

[sterile robin]

When you install something dont do it with sudo command
If you create a db to save something dont give all permission but read and write only the table that you need

[rich solar]

We crawl the web in search of treasure! We crawl the web in search of BTC to steal!

[stray bane]

if you need some help with this just shoot me a DM and ill proofread or add information to the guide. Will make sure to format my text using AI because I suck at writting but have alot of information.

[fringe ore]

Awhhh ok!

[prime shell]

Stop probin ma ports 😠

[summer otter]

thank you that's so kind I will pick up on this offer

[stray bane]

No problem, will even provide the copy and paste commands for basic firewall setup and cron if not dockerized.

Could even do a pelican or pterodactyl guide as well.

[summer otter]

Leefy my advise is this, get your priorities straight and determine where you want to go from there and what you want and need to learn from it

[fringe ore]

Seems like ill have a ton of help and support here and the hytale mod server im also in.

Less stress on my side.

You guys are great!

[sterile robin]

Just use common sense and you will be ok

Hey! I’m trying to understand how the community is organized, are most modders here independents, or are there teams I could get in touch with?

[summer otter]

some are independent and others are in teams working on servers/mods

[sterile robin]

Is there any way to find or join a team? I read the server rules and it says we can’t advertise ourselves, but I prefer working in a group so we can share feedback and improve together.

[summer otter]

what would you like to work on

that's maybe the first question that should get answered 🙂

[west elk]

you might find some likeminded people on the hytalemodding.dev discord

[clear crow]

Theres a dev discord and I didn't know about it? F. I gotta join.

Anyone got an invite?

Nvm

[sterile robin]

Im a developer i work i c Java JavaScript dart … ive got some ideas but I wanna before see the game and see what’s really needs ,as an example one of for sure i cant do at day one couse there isn’t voice chat

[stray pasture]

You could make one! 😄

Heck even integrating something like vivox or similar

[summer otter]

if you want to see the game and the tools first I am more than willing to call with you on day one and then show it to you

[runic panther]

I have a question. I've seen that some people already have a server set up for day one. How do you do that, or do you just talk to the Hytale team directly?

[sterile robin]

Y but you can’t mix it with client api from game Soo volume ecc doesn’t work properly

[stray pasture]

Thats true. I forgot about the lack of client. 😄

Companion app!!

[sterile robin]

For sure in single play you got your server XD that’s why

[upbeat storm]

It likely won't be challenging to setup a server for Hytale

[west elk]

People are preparing their linux servers so that when the game comes out, they just have to download and run the hytale server .jar.

[runic panther]

I understand, because I'm really surprised that several content creators are mentioning that they'll be opening a server for people to join and stuff, haha, and I'm humbly waiting for the .jar file for the server, hahahaha

[runic panther]

Let's hope not, but I'm really excited to find out what it will be like.

[west elk]

We are all waiting with you :)
Launching a server on day 1 will not be difficult, especially if you already have experience in hosting Minecraft servers. It will be really similar

[sterile robin]

And for sure they got some modder with collaborations with forge

[stoic pier]

are there no client side mods for hytale

[west elk]

Correct. Everything will be done through server-side mods that will then send asset packs (textures, models, sounds, ui, block/mob/item definitions, etc) to the client. Will also work in single player

[stoic pier]

hytale gregtech

[sterile robin]

No you can change ui you cant change client and how it works

[runic panther]

I wish you luck with your projects within Hytale

[west elk]

A lot of client functionality will be configurable from the server side

[marble rapids]

Do we know how to make servers yet?

[austere sonnet]

no there will probs be docs out on release

[west elk]

We know it will use Java 25, UDP (quic), and run on port 5520 by default

[near raptor]

Have we located any kind of proxying software like haproxy for QUIC yet?

[west elk]

@steep lion reported some success with rust-rpxy-l4

[near raptor]

Yeah, having a port open is not a problem, the firewall can be configured to only permit the IP addresses of the proxy/proxies

Interesting, will check it out

[cedar bronze]

So client server communication is probably also tls encrypted I would guess

[near raptor]

Yes, QUIC uses encryption

[marble rapids]

Thanks

[scarlet spoke]

QUIC doesn't use TLS, it integrates the encryption directly into the transport layer

[fringe ore]

I havent played this, only been hearing about people wanting to port it over. Seems like a massive project

[merry rover]

I’m not a programmer myself, but I’m very interested in server-side systems and game design.
I’ve been following the technical discussions closely and I’m looking to learn and collaborate where possible.
If there’s a dev Discord focused on Hytale modding / server systems, I’d really appreciate an invite.

[west elk]

It's on the website. Everyone is welcome!

[tired scarab]

Is macos support from day 1 possible or are there any news?

[near raptor]

There will be day 1 MacOS support

[cedar bronze]

I thought TLS is directly build into quic?

[cedar bronze]

Can you maybe send me an invite via dm?

Ah nvm, found it

[vernal niche]

That phrasing is incorrect. QUIC uses TLS

[scarlet spoke]

Yeah, you're right that QUIC uses TLS 1.3
What I meant is that QUIC doesn't run over TLS as a separate layer, it embeds the TLS 1.3 handshake into the transport layer and replaces the TLS record layer

[naive imp]

I know that you still have to wait for the launch to know what can be done, if I want to put a server, what things can I start working on from now without having the game yet? Or should I wait yes or yes, the launch to know how to connect a server? (I’m 100% new, I never did this in another game)

[tired scarab]

where on the website is it? or could you send it to me? 😄

[naive imp]

Is it correct that those who say ñserver from day one” will be purely Survival servers, since it is still not known how the game modes or any other system can be worked?

[tired scarab]

Do you already own a server?
Install java on the server prob (at least java 21)
Install a database most plugins will use/support mysql/mariadb
If on linux create a dedicated user for the hytale server and permission to the hytale server folder

[near raptor]

Hytale runs on Java 25, so preparing a server with Java 25 or a Dockerfile to build an image with the Hytale server jar into would help. Also prepare for UDP, port 5520, to be opened.

[stray pasture]

And then run into the headache that just usually likes to appear. And note that its usually an obscure fix for 8 years ago on a forum that looks like its from early 2000 burning your eyes out

[near raptor]

The lack of a reverse proxy that supports QUIC will be my biggest headache

[stray pasture]

Treafik should. Its also fantastic for docker setups and auto handling via containers and labels. (Unless your me and run everything on a dmz network and route locally...)

[near raptor]

I don't think Traefik supports QUIC, nor does haproxy

[stray pasture]

Treafik 3 should. They state it ir at least did. Last i remember.

[near raptor]

QUIC or HTTP/3?

Most proxies do support HTTP/3, but that isn't QUIC, it's built on top of it

[stray pasture]

They are the same are they not? I thought quic was fundamental to http3

[near raptor]

HTTP/3 is built on top of QUIC like HTTP is built on top of TCP. But supporting HTTP doesn't mean you now support arbitrary TCP

[clear crow]

I'm curious if Hytale will support multiple computers running one server or if that's something we'll have to make.

[near raptor]

Multiple computers running one server seems extremely unlikely

I mean, you could have a network of servers spread across multiple machines, but multiple machines together running a single server is very odd

[clear crow]

I'm thinking something alone the lines of Folio and PaperMC

Along*

[near raptor]

What? Paper runs on a single machine, you cannot spread it across multiple

So does Folia

[stray pasture]

This is never standard. Distributed is not simple

[clear crow]

Kk

I'm just thinking about something with heavy requirements. More ram I guess?

[stray pasture]

What's your idea?

[clear crow]

There would be lots of NPC's. I'll just say that.

[stray pasture]

Yes, but treafik does handle UDP. Though for a reverse proxy you shouldn't require any understanding of QUIC that should be the servers job. Correct me if I am wrong.

[stray pasture]

Distributed would be fantastic. But there is a lot of marshalling and high performance data handling it has been done via mammoth and multipaper as examples.

I would say that you should rather shard instead. Distributed is for one server one world infinite players, sharding is big network many servers connected but not one world.

[west elk]

The easiest way to do scaling is to have multiple servers and use transfer packets to do load balancing

[clear crow]

Sharding, thank you. The term was on the tip of my tongue. I'm curious if that will be supported or if we'll have to build a solution.

[stray pasture]

It is by default. "Transfer Packets" - not a typical term btw but its used by everyone here.

Moving people around and having a central db is all that will require.

[clear crow]

Gotcha. I'll have to investigate that. Lots of research to be done.

[stray pasture]

Your getting into fun territory! 😄 MMO level. 😄

[summer otter]

QUIC is build on top of udp, so can't we just loadbalance using an udp filter? Although SNI may be an issue then in this easy to digest form, but even that can be fixed with a bit of development I think

[clear crow]

Yeah. Thankfully I have nothing but time.

[stray pasture]

Well my thought was using reverse proxy to handle the UDP routing and I thought the server just handled the QUIC protocol not the reverse proxy

[stray pasture]

Let me know if you help, I have some experience with that type of architecture.

[near raptor]

Eh, I am not much of a network guru, so not too familiar with UDP / QUIC. Never used them much, always did stuff on HTTP/TCP level

[clear crow]

Will do. Tyvm.

[stray pasture]

Ok. I see. Yeah woth treafik you can route UDP. But with the game server just needs to understand the protocol the reverse proxy just routes it to that server.

[near raptor]

I guess so, I have used Traefik a fair bit (for HTTP proxying), maybe UDP can do as well then.

[stray pasture]

I used it for intancing and auto routing MC servers. UDP routing. It doesnt even know what is in the packet. Doesn't open or read.

[near raptor]

My idea of a network setup was that there are public-facing servers that act as the proxies/load balancers to a larger Kubernetes cluster. I don't want to expose the nodes of the Kubernetes cluster to the outside world such that people connect directly to a node. Risk of DDoS and such.

[stray pasture]

Yep! My homelab is your setup. Without the scaling. I use traefik single point pf entry, and route based on request locally via traefik. Very easy to do. Works with HTTP/3. UDP, thus should handle hytale.

You only ever connect to one IP. Zero ports all domain and sub domains.

[near raptor]

Yes, indeed. One public-facing IP (that's all I need in terms of scale, loadbalancers can handle a lot before they start to become congested), and multiple Kubernetes nodes behind it to handle the actual heavy workload.

Well the IP is a hostname

[stray pasture]

Oh then your fine. 😄 for true scale you may offload from one entry point. You hit you one IP and then through them to another reverse proxy to remove that load if youbgave that many users.

[near raptor]

I guess the loadbalancers are not part of the cluster, so just a native installation of Traefik

[stray pasture]

Docker is great. You can scale in ratio if you ever need to.

Never done that. But it can be made 😄 i have plans for that

[near raptor]

The current (Minecraft) network I am with does have multiple loadbalancers, but mostly for geographic purposes. E.G. an oceania one, a US westcoast one, EU one, etc.

[stray pasture]

You want one balancer than auto balances to region and load? That sounds cool 😄

[near raptor]

No, I think for now I just have it in one region

Planning on just setting up a private Hytale server for experimentation, won't be open to the public right away

[clear crow]

So I'm curious, because most of my development experience is with single player games. I know Hytale will be doing a lot of the heavy lifting, but what level of network development knowledge is recommended for Hytale modding?

[stray pasture]

If you have enough for virtualization/proxmox. Heck docker or podman would be fine you could mimic that architecture on a micro scale.

[stray pasture]

Assume Minecraft if it was nice and pretty inside. Roblox maybe the second closest. (Not that simple though, but likely as powerful)

[clear crow]

I have zero experience creating for either xD

[stray pasture]

What's your exp?

[clear crow]

Single player game development in Unity, Godot and pygame.

[stray pasture]

Oh. Uh assume zero game work. Mainly modifying and interrupting. I have plenty of game dev experience as well. And if its like MC it will be much more "fun" and relaxing.

API with event interrupts though Hytale has many new cool toys.

[west elk]

The engine will be handling the network stuff so you don't have to worry about it. The API provides event handlers that you can subscribe to and use to modify whatever you need to

[clear crow]

I'm not worthy.

[stray pasture]

I wish there was a Unity with the Minecraft like development. That would be gold.

Velocity in development is insane.

[clear crow]

It would be. I thought about making Minecraft mods but I've been avoiding Java like it's gonna give me an STI for the longest time.

[west elk]

You'll learn and it will be fun. No worries! In the future, there will also be a Blueprint style visual scripting system for the lighter stuff

[clear crow]

Yeah, I've heard about that. I prefer to code, but either or works for me.

[stray pasture]

I hate java... so... im no help

STI = Software Tingle Infection.

First thing I thought about.

[clear crow]

I started with c# in 2012 on a website called 3ds Buzz. I then downloaded Unity and thought I was going to make the most hype zombie apocalypse game. I was very quickly humbled 😂

[stray pasture]

I work full time in Unity. But I just started working with TypeScript for browser based games. I made a pomodoro timer last night and now my friends keep using it.... 😂

[near raptor]

I tried game development with Unity and Godot a few times, but never really got somewhere. I am a developer, but my experience is in backend server development, and game development is vastly different.

Also, I noticed that I lack the necessary creativity, I am very good at boring backend stuff but not so much at creative game design

[clear crow]

I played around with TS during the summer. I thought it might be fun making a wow private server and using TSwow. It was not fun.

Godot for me is chefs kiss.

[west elk]

When friends acutally use the things we build, that's the best feeling 👏

[stray pasture]

I focus on Multiplayer and Tooling. Games are fun I made a few multillayer prototypes and used Steams infrastructure. But unity and C# is such a slog

[near raptor]

I like plugin development in Minecraft because the tooling is quite alright. And well, there is an actual game already, you just customize it with plugins to create gamemodes and such. But that's very different from actually making your own game.

[stray pasture]

I agree! Its all session based so many people can join the same timer session and work together 😄 I used Tauri and Capacitor for mobile and desktop. Took me 6 hours

[outer bronze]

Thank god everything* is subjective

[clear crow]

Amen to that.

[stray pasture]

Godot is great. If you want to reinvent the wheel 😄

[clear crow]

I was about to jump into monogame and make my own tools. But then Hytale was back.

[outer bronze]

Similar to learning GML (GameMaker Language). But actually somewhat better. Only that Godot has way less tools for developers writing code than any modern IDE

[outer bronze]

↑

[tepid gate]

OpenGL in C is the only true method 💪

[clear crow]

Gigachad

[tepid gate]

Nah it hurts asf

[near raptor]

lwjgl

[tepid gate]

^^ This

LWJGL + Kotlin is Awesome ngl

[clear crow]

That's what notch made Minecraft with right?

[tepid gate]

Yepp

[stray pasture]

Oh do I have a video for you. I made a game engine over Christmas break. And now never want to make one again. Monogame...

[near raptor]

Honestly I never considered trying LWJGL, which is odd as I am a Java (Kotlin) dev

[outer bronze]

Why not make games in Assembly like the gigachad who made Rollercoaster Tycoon?

[stray pasture]

Been there done that, not against.

[tepid gate]

LWJGL is very interesting. You will need to manually do some malloc-ing in a JVM language lol. It's pretty much just JNI bindings for OpenGL

[clear crow]

The experience is so worth it though. It's been a dream of mine. Even if I'm screaming at my computer for hours a day trying to figure it out.

[stray pasture]

I would say I made Unity from Temu if it was deformed during birth.

Really made me hate working in C# for work and personal... So TypeScript is Microsoft and typed and generalist like C# plus browser is cooler!

[clear crow]

Switching from python to c# again sure is a pain for the first day or so.

[stray pasture]

Not as pretty... so its C# for work and TS for personal. 😄

Dont get me started with python...

[near raptor]

Python is oof. I mean, it is nice if you are in certain areas or want quick scripting (albeit I do quick scripting with Node.js), the language I really dislike.

[stray pasture]

I dont mind JS its fairly unique in the way it operates. I just like types. But I have been using Bun and Webstorm has no idea what that is.

[tepid gate]

Using Python after programming inJava my entire life is so weird

[stray pasture]

Ooh. Python is a language that should never have gotten so far. Its so used purely because of its readability but single handedly probably in my humble so much humble opinion the worse language to exist b

[near raptor]

I just like the ease of npm as ecosystem (crazy I know). Quick to install some packages, hack together a script, done.

Python is too obsessed with backwards compatibility and dependency management and the whole venv stuff is really annoying

[sturdy imp]

It's basically training wheels for anyone trying to learn coding I suppose

[silver cloak]

need tech blog

[near raptor]

Instead of evolving the language, Python just turns everything into annotations/directives

[stray pasture]

But they never remove those training wheels.

[sturdy imp]

Yeah, the whole language is training wheels essentially.. it'll never be good for anything large scale

[stray pasture]

I will gladly talk about every language I hate and why I hate eco systems. And how if we just focused on making C with different teirs of difficulty we would have been unified and never have thr "is this the best language" talk. Because programming is about reuse and non duplication but hey let's make 2 billion packages woth 1500 eco systems for 14 languages...

[stray pasture]

Except Eve Online.

[sturdy imp]

Hold up what

[stray pasture]

Eve Online uses Stackless python for there server it runs at 1hz and took 20 years

[near raptor]

Developers are good at reinventing the wheel, because the previous wheel had ugly rims and we wanted different rims.

But it's still a wheel

[stray pasture]

But let's not modify it, let's just reform an entire new one. 😄

[silver lynx]

I want rims with built-in led rgb light strips.

[stray pasture]

More specifically every entity is its own entire thread, a ship, player, etc. 20 years 100s of engineers. And full scale simulation

[tepid gate]

Yeah I think it's getting there. I use it every once in a while when I need to quickly plot something, and, admittedly, it's pretty good for that. The biggest problem I have with Python is dynamic typing; whenever I use any lib I have no idea what the functions expect because the signatures are just diabolical, and AFAIK the type annotations are only just suggestions, so there's a 50/50 chance that it will throw at runtime

[silver lynx]

I look at Python as Gen Z's version of Visual Basic.

and I like BASIC.

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah. I love not knowing my types. (TypeScript) is why i choose that.

Oh my gawd Gen Zs VB 😄 I am Gen Z 😂 I agree.

[silver lynx]

If you want to know your types look at PASCAL and ADA.

[near raptor]

The only issue I have with TypeScript is that you need like 20 config files to get it working in Node.js. But maybe I should switch to Bun

[stray pasture]

Well dont use Node. 😄

Bun does all of the transpilation internally

[tepid gate]

At least VB has a real type system 🤣

[stray pasture]

When I was your age I had to worry about my types!

[silver lynx]

but like all BASICs and Python, as well as Java, you can declare variables everywhere.

[near raptor]

Declaring a variable in Java outside a class and Java gets big mad

[stray pasture]

Delcare a var outside a c# class and you ain't compiling.

[silver lynx]

I miss being forced to have a declarations block for my variables, so easy to find them. Most of my code looks like that, i just go ahead and put the variables for methods at the top of the method, same for classes and other constructs.

[near raptor]

Well, same in Java. But Java and C# are just two lost siblings of each other.

[stray pasture]

They need the rivalry. It keeps C# from regressing.

[near raptor]

I think that Java is more fighting with its actual siblings in the JVM family.

[stray pasture]

Family is a doozy sometimes.

I cant post a gif. But I cant wait for CubePixels 3 paragraphs

[silver lynx]

I'm just glad that brainf**k and whitespace never got popular enough that someone wrote a popular app or game in them.

[dawn scaffold]

im waiting for a friend to send the message, its another topic

or yeah I will send it anyways

Hey, Im discussing the transfer packet topic with some friends. We are using Kubernetes to deploy hytale servers and scale them.

Our thoughts without a proxy:
If we send a transfer packet, eg to connect to gameserver-1 from the lobby, we need a public ip and port, so the hytale client can connet.
This means, we woud dynamically open ports in the firewall and need to expose each pod in kubernetes with its own port, right?

[silver lynx]

you could use gif2ascii and post the output in a triple backtick block

[summer otter]

correct or you make your own peer 2 peer relay station

[stray pasture]

Yeah, got it right.

Though a proxy is really only for an entry point. You don't require it for internal routing if your servers handle it

[dawn scaffold]

But then we dont need to open ports dynamically, need to expose the pods in kube... So yeah not sure how we should do it

Also we already started with some backend etc and want to do as much as possible before the release

[stray pasture]

Well if you want one entry via a IP. You only need to expose the ports that the servers require connections to. So any server transfered i beleive do require forwarded ports or it won't exist. Thats what a reverse proxy does for you

[summer otter]

exactly this, or you need to abuse the quic protocols properties which allow to transfer connnections between peers and ips. So you can setup p2p

[stray pasture]

But even that I don't think there sever is a direct connect that would be a weird bunney hop of connections. Is that like your connected to a master and that master routs your data? 😄

[summer otter]

quic using cid and sid not ip and port

well it uses ip and port for initial connection and connection changes

[dawn scaffold]

Do we already know how to distinguish from a packet in the proyx where to send it to? Like if im connected to proxy (1.2.3.4:25565) and want to forward to gameserver-1 (localhost:25566), how do we know in the proxy from the packet that we want to go to gameserver-1?

[stray pasture]

Right. But how does the user see that server if its not exposed? Data would not be allowed through.

[summer otter]

quic is build and this is also a use case for them to allow ip changes both for server and client and then resend the packets missed

[stray pasture]

Yes. Traefik, can forward UDP to containers nicely.

You just forward local ip:port

Your internal network talks like normal. But no user needs to worry about it because the proxy just forwards data to where it needs to go

[summer otter]

that's why you use a 3rd server both connect to have udp hole punched through the fireewall

and connect straight to eachother

then you build a p2p network that should still be compliant with quic

[stray pasture]

Texting proxy and architecture is surprisingly hard to convey 😄

[dawn scaffold]

How do we know which local ip:port the users wants to go? Will the packet also contain some additional info like "I want to go to gameserver-1 or sth" and in the proxy i can do lookup(gameserver-1) returns localhost:1234?

[summer otter]

you give a domain and port in the packet

or do I misunderstand
sorry

[stray pasture]

Well, that I don't know how it handles exactly. But essentially the information knows where it needs to go, the proxy just allows it to get there.

[potent parcel]

Thanks. Our question with the proxy was the following.
e.g. we have one public domain pointing to our public node ip with one open port.
One this node we have multiple kubernetes pods/services running.
Im not familiar with Traefik in detail, but i dont get it how we can proxy e.g. when a user want's to switch from lobby01 to game01 without having an additional public domain entry game01. Because the Traefic proxy needs some value to route to the right internal service/pod. But we can't send the client to an internal domain, because the connection will be established from the client and not from the proxy to the new server. Or did i missunderstood?

[arctic karma]

game servers available on 13th?

[west elk]

yes

[stray pasture]

Local IPs. You send the user say from 10.0.1.101 to 19.0.1.104 the transfer should work and the proxy understands that shift. How no idea but for me it just works. 😄

[summer otter]

you're right and for that we must hope the transfer packets accept SNI and then traefik can in theory find out to which server it was supposed to send it

[west elk]

If you tell the client to connect to a local ip, it will fail

[stray pasture]

Not if its via proxy.

[west elk]

If you send the client a transfer packet, it will disconnect and create a new connection to the address and port you provided

[summer otter]

but one downside of this "proxy" approach is that all the bandwidth of the proxy gets used up if you send a lot. Maybe its not an issue but maybe it is

[stray pasture]

If you are connected via ip to proxy anything in the server can be local.

If it sends that data direct to client you got an issue. But that just means IP:port sends to the correct container.

So still local routing as far as the proxy cares.

[dawn scaffold]

sendTransfetpacket(same proxy ip, additionalinfo=[gameserver ip, gameserver port]) sth like this i guess

[potent parcel]

Yes, but how does the hytale client reach the proxy if it use an internal ip address?
Since it uses transfer packages and the client establishs a new connection and therefore a new session.
Then u can't access the proxy with an internal address. Or do i miss something. Because its not the proxy reastablishing a new internal connection but the client from external.

[summer otter]

so keep that in mind as well we don't know how well and how much bandwidth hytale uses at worst 8Mbit/sec

[stray pasture]

Unknown. I dont know whay hytales transfer packet takes. The concept is all I can tell you, I would have to set it up my self first.

Wow that was perfect timing. 😄

[potent parcel]

Ok, then we are at the same point 🙂
Thanks anyways.

[dawn scaffold]

so based on data payload = game-1 and we have to write how exactly the packet looks like in terms of bytes so code the proxy

[stray pasture]

Yeah, as long as you understand the concept it should be fairly quick to figure out.

[west elk]

Why can't you just open up a port for every server?

[summer otter]

or a port range

[stray pasture]

It would make it as simple as IP:Port and the IP could be the same but the port tells the destination.

[arctic karma]

iptables

[west elk]

Or a dedicated ipv6 address for each server ^^

[dawn scaffold]

we had the same idea xd

[stray pasture]

If no port open you would likely need a lobby/matching service to route for you internally. Proxy likely wouldnt be able to handle that. At least not treafik due to no header info

[dawn scaffold]

yep we need more information plss

[potent parcel]

Yeah, we had the same idea also with ipv6 but it would be easier for auto scaling in my opinion to handle it with a proxy.
Additionally you have one point of entrance which you could easily monitor for example. Therefore it would also be easier to blacklist ips trying to run dos attacks if it all goes over one or multiple proxys.
(My personal opinion, but im open for other arguments :))

[stray pasture]

Ah a relay would be best. If you cant open ports, as that can read the packet data required and route to the proper server via one IP:Port.

At least via my small amount of brain process happening.

[vernal niche]

What do you need?

[dawn scaffold]

For the ClientReferral packet. We heard there is a HostAddress and a data payload which will be sendet as a bytearray.

In a QUIC proxy, we need the additional data payload to forward to game servers internally, but dont know how the packet looks like so we cannot start coding one.

[summer otter]

André it is possible right to create a small mini protocol over QUIC such that we can create a p2p scenario using backend services and client without it needing to expose any port by udp hole punching through a firewall. You only need to expose one server or port for connections that then get made by both the server and client. Bit unconventional to say the least. But since QUIC allows for ip transfers I was thinking that this should maybe work to solve many issues people are currently describing. Even if it's theoretical. If you think it can work I will make something already and test it day 0 to see if it truly works with hytale

[vernal niche]

That's probably impossible. Payloads are end-to-end encrypted, so you can't access that.

But what you CAN access is the SNI in in the initial QUIC packet

[light lance]

Wouldn't something like Tailscale's Subnet router work? Not necessarily using tailscale, but something that can setup a node inside your network that all requests are routed through before being connected to the internal resource

Or Pangolins newt client

[summer otter]

unless if you do this with a plugin or a server client made to receive this I think but that's an edge case and is more work

[stray pasture]

Yes but aren't the headers exposed? So you could work with at least the connection ID?

So in theory you could precordinate prior to sending the pack expecting the connection and routing them that way. Thats possible one way

[vernal niche]

Yes, you need the connection IDs to track which upstream this belongs to

• Initial packet: parse SNI and save connection ID
• Subsequent packets: match on connection ID

which btw means that reverse proxies can't be stateless

[summer otter]

I get it thanks André ❤️

[vernal niche]

The nice thing is that QUIC doesn't actually care about the connection tuple (ip:port src/target), so you might be able to do some funky stuff

[summer otter]

that's what I mean with p2p I will play with it

and see what I can make 😄

[normal dune]

Are you the Brazilian André? I just wanted to ask that

[vernal niche]

I've been asked this so many times since I'm on this Discord lol.

No. I'm from Germany and if you're from central Europe, André is considered a French name 😄

[normal dune]

I'm Brazilian. I thought you were Brazilian because that name is pretty common here, lol

[vernal niche]

Yeah I learned that from people DMing me in Portuguese lol

[frigid basalt]

French 💪💪💪

[normal dune]

And also because of your provider's name, "Nitrado"

[west elk]

Employer and Provider

[boreal radish]

this is not the first time ive seen this dicussion on the name Andre lul

[normal dune]

I hadn't seen that discussion before. I saw him typing again and then I got curious, lol

[clear crow]

When that server.jar releases it's gonna be like the gold rush xD

[fleet isle]

First to find zero day- I mean whaaaaaat XD

[digital spindle]

Hi, will the server.jar be released to us with our pre release copy?

[dawn scaffold]

Would be nice, I think I read here that they wont do it, but not sure tbh

Do we already know when hytale releases? like what time on the 13th?

[west elk]

Yes. With the release of Early Access

[west elk]

Yep. Countdown is on the website

[dawn scaffold]

oh