server-plugins-read-only

[kindred crescent]

Remember also that 8Gb might just be what they had on hand. 2Gb might be just fine for a 4 players world

[silver bronze]

Can't really say for sure until we got access. I wonder if world generation is a big one for CPU usage because for any non-SMP servers thats a no brainer to disable

[stray pasture]

They likely can't either yet.

They are testing for a reason! 😛 - Many more tests hopefully

[kindred crescent]

They had a test with 56 players last week and it crashed because of a bug of the server and they had over 3000 npcs.
Now they did a test with 70 and it crashed after 45 minutes. That's 14 more players

The server will get optimized with time

[stray pasture]

And more unknowns! 😄 (not a bash) Just being captain obvious. 😛

[kindred crescent]

Gotta remember this game is like 2 years away from a release

[stray pasture]

2 years? 😄 Idk bout that one 😛 - Its a bit futher

[kindred crescent]

They said the engine was like 1 year from being ok for release

[sharp lake]

I think 2 years might be the number they said as the minimum for early access

[kindred crescent]

In the end, we'll have access to the server code so optimization will also come from the community

[sharp lake]

Yeah, I'm curious how that will end up going
We'll probably be able to make some really flexible tricks for scaling

[stray pasture]

Engine and Game are different. I would think the Engine has 2 more, the game is longer.

[kindred crescent]

From what Simon said, the game will never stop being worked on. It will probably receive expansions like an MMO would (Simon does love World of Warcraft ater all)

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah, I like this statement. - I was excited when I read it

[kindred crescent]

I really liked when he talked about cinematics and voice actors too 🙂

[stray pasture]

Im not much of a fan of that stuff more like just freely getting to do what I want. 😄 - But this is still good news!

[kindred crescent]

The way I see Hytale, it seems to me to be a mix of Minecraft and Skyrim. Sure it's not exactly that, but the combat and ambiance of the game really looks like the same.
Now what's cool is that I really really like Skyrim, but creating content for Skyrim is very hard. Hytale would let it be much easier and I love that.

[sharp lake]

I think voice actors is interesting, but not something I'd want tbh
I recently joined Wynncraft again for the first time in like 10 years and the voice acting was certainly an interesting addition

[kindred crescent]

Turn off the voices and use subtitles 🙂 (Not for Wynncraft but for Hytale)

[sharp lake]

Is that a thing on Wynncraft?

[silver cloak]

Wynncraft has voice acting now? WTH?

[sharp lake]

I find it more immersive when you don't have voice acting, because it's rarely a studio-grade recording/performance

[kindred crescent]

Been a while since I played Wynncraft and even then, I never went far. I'm not much of a fan of MMOs. Especially not when I can't just play solo

[kindred crescent]

But Hypixel Studios Canada IS a studio 😉

[silver cloak]

I would def use voice actors if I could

Are you guys pro or against AI voice actors?

[sharp lake]

I think conveying the voice through text styles is way more interesting

[kindred crescent]

Even if I or someone else doesn't like voice acting, the fact they want to go that way tells me they have a clear direction contrary to Minecraft that stays more "vanilla" or "general".

[sharp lake]

It is already difficult enough for voice actors to find work lol
We should not be replacing them with lifeless mimics

[silver cloak]

I agree

[kindred crescent]

AI voice actors for a mod? Sure.
AI voice actors for a studio? Common bruh

[silver cloak]

Since we are in hytale, I wouldn't be surprised if someone made speech bubbles or a zoom in dialogue type of thing

[sharp lake]

I thinking having no voice acting in Hytale would make it easier for mods to mimic the style as well

[kindred crescent]

There will probably be a dialogue system mod real quick.

[sharp lake]

Conveying the voice through text styles is way more interesting to me anyway

[silver cloak]

Def, we have proximity though, so I guess it depends on your game design. Voice acting + proximity makes it hella immersive ngl

[sharp lake]

Oh maybe that's a good point

[kindred crescent]

The way I see it, you could have either voice acting or just NPC mumbles with text

[vernal niche]

☕

[silver cloak]

Someone is going to make a speech to text plugin and have you talk in the mic to continue 💀

[sharp lake]

I like mumbles too, or the muffled dialogue some games do for it

[kindred crescent]

I remember Assassin's Creed Odyssey that let you create your own quests/stories and the characters talking would just be mute. Adding a mumbling would have been much better

[sharp lake]

LOL using player microphones to alert nearby enemies to your presence

Or cause cave collapses maybe

[silver cloak]

yeah

[kindred crescent]

Use AI to let NPCs react to what you say

[silver cloak]

I know roleplay servers are going to go crazy with this one

[sharp lake]

NPCs that give you riddles that you can answer with natural language processing would be interesting

Like getting into a dungeon requires you to answer a few questions
But you could ask for hints or give synonymous answers
With something like that, it probably wouldn't be too intensive because they're one-off tasks, you'd need a lot of players using that particular mechanic at once

[stray pasture]

A friend of mine was doing this. 😄 - Yeah it was fun!

[dusty atlas]

Plugins and mods are going to be paid or the eula says they must be free?

[silver cloak]

You can put your plugins / mods for sale yes. (or behind a subscription model [example: patreon])

As long as it follows the EULA and community guidelines

[fathom pelican]

animal crossing

[loud raft]

Does anyone know if server plugins will support kotlin?

Also i’ve not done a lot of java modding but is there a harmony equivalent for java?

[fathom pelican]

quarkus or spring boot. anyone here ?

[coarse canopy]

will hytale natively support cubic chunks?

I was thinking of doing custom terrain generation for beautiful infinite worlds at some point maybe

and I am hoping that I can combine that with custom vehicles

[kindred crescent]

The chunks are in 32x32x32 (cubic), but the files store them in columns of 10. It's something they already plan on moving from so we can get infinite height worlds.

[coarse canopy]

LEZGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

big dubs

[loud raft]

Hmm looks like mixins are the closest equivalent

[delicate quest]

do we know something about external oauth integration? such as authorizing on your website by hytale account

[devout cipher]

@late breach hytale oauth wound be dope

[wet vine]

You could probably build a simple server for this

You just need someone to log in-game on a server and type out a message right?

That would be a fun first project. To make an account verifier for hytale.

[lament steeple]

true

[delicate quest]

good point, i already have solution for web auth approval, but oauth would be great

[scarlet spoke]

Yeah, that's the only safe way currently.

User Command -> Store Hytale Name in a API Server -> Generate Token -> Show Token + Link where to verify -> User enters Token -> API Request -> Verification done

[steep lion]

I wonder if there's any reverse proxy that works with QUIC protocol

[formal burrow]

wait we can't run a hytale server then set a simple nginx reverse domain proxy to it?

[steep lion]

i dont know actually

[sharp lake]

That would be Nginx lol

nginx*.*org/en/docs/quic.html

[steep lion]

nginx seems good

another concern is would the backend servers be able to recognize the connecting players IP addresses

I remember that sort of stuff being quite annoying to deal with last time I played around with UDP proxies

[sharp lake]

Even if they can't, why would they need to?

[steep lion]

ip bans / preventing server scrapers

[sharp lake]

You can do both of those from the proxy itself

[steep lion]

maybe sure

that does mean i would need a custom system if, for example, i want my moderators to control the ip filter

but its fine

[sharp lake]

You'd need a custom system regardless if you intended the bans to work across all of your servers lol

You just read the IPs from the db, just like every other server in your network

[steep lion]

maybe i dont need to retain original ip after all

the only reason i need a reverse proxy is because the actual host (which is my friend's machine) can't port forward due to isp limitations

so i have to put a secondary machine on the cloud and use that as the gateway for players

[sharp lake]

oh

[steep lion]

if nginx can handle hytale's udp traffic well it should be all good

[sharp lake]

Idk how Nginx works in this situation, or how they have it implemented in Hytale
But it's not entirely impossible that there will be a way to recognize headers like X-Real-IP, which would give you the original

If there is, then you could just use normal IP bans

[steep lion]

that would be convenient

[rose atlas]

For like a bungeecord network?

Afaik hytale devs said that stuff is already built in

[silver cloak]

cant wait to cook

[sharp lake]

No, he's trying to get around ISP limitations

[silver cloak]

Hytale does have a transfer packet

[steep lion]

all i could find was a transfer packet and not a reverse proxy

transfer packet just makes the client connect to a different server

[rose atlas]

Could ask slikey tbh

[sharp lake]

There are like a dozen reverse proxies for QUIC
You don't need to ask anyone 🙈

[silver cloak]

Can someone tell me in mc what exactly is a reverse proxy?

[sharp lake]

It's not a Minecraft concept

[silver cloak]

I know, but an mc example if someone could give

[sharp lake]

It's literally not a Minecraft concept, you can't just give a Minecraft example lol

[silver cloak]

ah

[steep lion]

users connect to one server and the connection gets routed to many backend servers (thats just one use case)

[silver cloak]

ohhhh I see

[steep lion]

good reverse proxy softwares has more advanced features like load balancing but ive never had a server large enough to ever need a load balancer lol

[sharp lake]

Technically every time we use "proxy" when talking about Minecraft servers, they're all reverse proxies
Because the difference between a proxy and a reverse proxy is just who is in charge basically

It's just that on the open-web, we don't just say "proxy"
Because the difference actually matters a lot

[steep lion]

i dont think hytale would come with an official reverse proxy system because that'd mean the code has to be extremely flexible enough to allow handling packets without real "game server" behind it

[sharp lake]

You don't need one, and you wouldn't want one
You can use the industry-standard and fool-proof reverse proxies lol

[steep lion]

yea except you dont really get to control stuff based on the in-game context

[sharp lake]

Like what context?

[steep lion]

commands etc.

i mean server can still communicate with a general purpose reverse proxy software via various means but

[sharp lake]

Why would your commands control your load balancer and handling encryption 😭

[steep lion]

i mean redirecting connection to a specific backend server

[versed bronze]

„Afaik“ they only said the needed protocol package to transfer players between servers is implement not that it is a ready to use plug and play solution yet.

[rose atlas]

ok

[sharp lake]

Can you give an example

[steep lion]

basically what /server does in bungeecord/velocity in minecraft

[sharp lake]

You don't want your reverse proxy to handle that to begin with

That's the game's job, and the game supports exactly that natively

[silver cloak]

Why not transfer packet?

[steep lion]

i feel like transfer packets are easier to spoof by client

[sharp lake]

WHAT LOL

[steep lion]

uhh ok my example isnt great

[silver cloak]

No offence but why are you worrying about those little details? Why not focus on making a good server first. Like nobody cares about those geek stuff

[sharp lake]

How is that a concern at all for routing
You'd need game support either way because you can't just drop the connection and move them to somewhere else
That hack works in Minecraft because we tell the client we're entering a new dimension

[silver cloak]

You have no idea how many times I've seen people create orchestrations, custom systems just for their server to have ZERO players

[sharp lake]

So rather than using a hack to trick the client with a bunch of fake bs, we just tell them they're transferring directly now

[steep lion]

yea i see now

[sharp lake]

Their concern is a security concern, not "geek stuff"
But it doesn't make sense to me

[silver cloak]

idk man I just know the basics, when you overlook stuff you are cooked

I am going to jinx it but who's going to client spoof you anyway

[steep lion]

honestly i was thinking of the features of velocity/bungeecord thats not reverse proxy so it got a bit off topic

such as communication between backend servers

[blissful crane]

Hi, do we know the minimum and/or recommended server specifications (pure vanilla) to handle x players ?

[sharp lake]

We won't need Velocity for transfers at the very least
Communication between servers is probably going to be built-in
You'll be able to share databases between them no matter what, so that much is fine

[sharp lake]

We don't really have recommended server specs, but they posted some of their testing results

[rose atlas]

slikey said that bungeecord system is costing them thousands for their minecraft servers so im pretty sure they put a built-in solution to help fix this and this person is concerned about a nothing burger in the end.

[sharp lake]

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[steep lion]

my* minecraft server (not exactly mine) uses redis for backend communication but a standard system for that kind of stuff would be nice instead of leaving it up to each server developer

[sharp lake]

Ryzen 9 is vague as hell and it failed to "handle it" lol

[silver cloak]

Honestly I think that setup can def handle 500 players for minigames

[sharp lake]

We have no idea what kind of scaling issues they have

[silver cloak]

I am going to test it day 1 ye

[versed bronze]

Where this quote comes from?

[blissful crane]

hmm, okay, thanks

[rose atlas]

Didnt they confirm servers can disable unwated features? and that in return can cause performance boost?

[sharp lake]

slikey/status/2000608313977810946

[silver cloak]

yep that's confirmed. The whole game is plugins basically, you can disable whatever you don't want

[sharp lake]

Yes, but we still don't know what the bottleneck to begin with is

[silver cloak]

Dude isn't it crazy that you can just drag n drop a new plugin and BAM you have new features

[sharp lake]

That's kind of what plugins do anyway LMFAO

[silver cloak]

Yeah but like I'ven ever seen that before

[steep lion]

this seems kinda on par with minecraft servers which is pretty good i think

[sharp lake]

I think that's because you're not a developer 🙈

[silver cloak]

facts

[sharp lake]

You think that's on par with Minecraft? Are you crazy
Vanilla Minecraft cannot handle anywhere close to 60 people without TPS drops

[rose atlas]

wait, a long time ago one of their blogposts said that servers can change textures, is that still up-to-date info or now not the case?

[steep lion]

3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 player
at least this part that is

[sharp lake]

Vanilla Minecraft is so poorly performant that there probably isn't a soul out there running that software for their real server

[steep lion]

i dont know about how it scales at large number of players because my smp only ever got about 15 players at the most peak

[blissful crane]

I hope that all these purchases will enable them to optimize everything properly, because the server is still quite demanding compared to other voxel games

[silver cloak]

Yeah it can change everything, ui, textures, animations, vfx

[sharp lake]

All content is data-driven
The client doesn't have anything, so yes

[rose atlas]

i see, thanks!

[sharp lake]

20 is the default player limit and it's because it'll have a stroke on most hardware 😍

[silver cloak]

And that's day 1 btw, they will introduce optimisations later

[fleet isle]

One thing about the whole reverse proxy stuff is that if you just use transfer packets, all servers need to have a public facing IPs whereas with reverse proxy, none of your servers need a public IP, the public IP of the reverse proxy is enough

[steep lion]

that is true, but isnt minecraft kinda unique in that regards

i dont think a lot of games take that approach of like connecting everything behind one reverse proxy

[blissful crane]

what about cheating? Is there anything planned?

[rose atlas]

their EULA states server-side anticheat.

[fleet isle]

Hytale is apparently going to work like that too if you use nginx for example

not sure if Traefik supports QUIC

[blissful crane]

traefik for me is for home deployment, not for prod

[sharp lake]

Okay so with the transfer packet, you have a payload
You can send this player a transfer packet to the reverse proxy itself, and the payload can dictate the route
So you don't need to expose every back-end server, you can just re-use the proxy for the routing

[near raptor]

Hm, I hadn't considered that with a transfer packet we need to expose all boxes.

[steep lion]

ah thats exactly what i was thinking, an additional payload (which MC does NOT have 💀)

[sharp lake]

You don't need to, you can send the player a packet that connects them to the reverse proxy they're already connected to
Basically forcing a re-connection

[near raptor]

Or maybe some kind of proxy setup in front of all boxes? Not sure how that would work, but if there is an additional payload a reverse proxy could use that to route correctly

[sharp lake]

If you want to have a bunch of servers that players can jump between, but cannot connect to directly
You still use a proxy, it's just a typical reverse proxy

Not a specialized Minecraft one that abuses the client

[steep lion]

if you have a domain cant you also like do transfer to a.mydomain b.mydomain

and have nginx handle the subdomains

[sharp lake]

Yes, you could do it like that
But those are publicly exposed boxes

[fleet isle]

yes, you don't need to if you have a reverse proxy, however if you don't, you're gonna have to have a public facing IP... I don't know how many server providers will also offer you a reverse proxy if you ask for 2 or more servers

[tropic axle]

Can you send a player to any arbitrary host, or is there configuration needed such that the sending and receiving servers know about each other?

[silver bronze]

Ah networking... my worst enemy I have not thought about yet. I hope someone in the community will have a proper bungeecord-esque implementation for the Hytale transfer packets 😅

[near raptor]

Maybe, but DNS can be a bit finnicky when you have automatic spin up of boxes and shut down

[sharp lake]

I don't think I understand what you're saying here
Why would they provide a proxy for you?

[rose atlas]

I think servers with heavy modded content will need to use a FastDL CDN right?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, I think so
Idk if they've addressed that concern yet

[fleet isle]

Not the Hytale team but server providers, if you want to host a Hytale server or two but don't want to exactly fiddle with a linux server

[steep lion]

fastdl oh no
havent heard that since gmod days

[near raptor]

I am not so familiar with QUIC, but it seems like neither Traefik nor haproxy support it (or at least not a custom protocol). But maybe I am mistaken?

[rose atlas]

me spending 2 hours downloading a server's 80GB content:

[steep lion]

will hytale allow us to customize loading screens like in gmod 🤣

[sharp lake]

If you want to host a Hytale server or two, and you don't want to expose all of them to the web
You just run Nginx or whatever for routing
If you expose all of them, you can just use the transfer packet easily

[rose atlas]

i think that might be the case tbh but idk

[sharp lake]

QUIC is like HTTP/3 basically, so there are lots of proxies for it
Including Nginx

[steep lion]

gmod allows you to send custom html webpage before the client starts downloading the contents so players have something to look at (and even play music) while downloading

[near raptor]

Stupid question then as I don't fully grasp QUIC, does Hytale use HTTP/3 then, for all traffic?

[fleet isle]

yup, but I'm now talking about the people that want to do that too but don't want to run their own Linux server so they will use some other Hytale specific server provider like Nitrado

[steep lion]

HTTP/3 is just like, another thing that uses QUIC i think

[rose atlas]

i DO hoped for that awhile ago..

[steep lion]

QUIC is basically just a modern replacement for TCP, essentially

[sharp lake]

It's technically possible they don't, I think
But I don't fully grasp QUIC either

[sharp lake]

No, QUIC is a protocol built-on top of UDP

[near raptor]

Because to my understanding HTTP/3 sits on top of QUIC, which sits on top of UDP

[steep lion]

yes but like the goal of QUIC is to do the same thing as TCP and improve things
it just uses UDP as the ground layer

[sharp lake]

Yeah okay that's fair enough

[near raptor]

According to GPT, the right stack is:

HTTP/3
QUIC (which is UDP)
IP

So, lots of proxies out there support HTTP/3, but not arbitrary QUIC implementations (not HTTP/3)

It's a bit like why using Traefik for Minecraft proxying would be weird, as Traefik is primarily a HTTP proxy

[steep lion]

people decided TCP sucks so they started building a new protocol under UDP
and even the web technology is going to move over to QUIC in the future maybe

[sharp lake]

We know that Hytale works with Nginx due to a tweet
So although it could technically not be HTTP/3, it sort of seems like it might be

[near raptor]

Nginx is one layer lower I think, it can operate on the transport layer. But my networking knowledge is kinda bad at the moment, wwould have to read up on it again

[sharp lake]

garageagle

Can transfer packets still work if your servers don't all have public IPs? Seems like that would require some sort of proxy

Slikey

Yes, then you need a proxy but you don't need a bungee cord then, you can use a simple QUIC proxy such as Nginx to route your traffic.

I didn't realize they covered this exact matter, but yeah

[steep lion]

ive only used nginx for TCP, and specifically HTTP stuff which is the main reason why nginx exists
i dont know how well nginx performs when it goes out of web server things

[sharp lake]

From what I understand, it's what everyone uses basically

[steep lion]

seems promising then

[sharp lake]

Though looking at it more closely, Jeff might be right about it being a layer lower
It's possible we won't get headers or anything from HTTP3, but we don't really need them, and probably don't want the bloat of HTTP3 lol

[rose atlas]

i hope we can customize a server's loading screen 😭

[sharp lake]

It would be a little unusual because we're not moving text, we're moving actual data

[steep lion]

please do not make downloading gigabytes of contents the normal things for servers to do 😭

[rose atlas]

that might happen anyway

[sharp lake]

I'm not sure if that's much of a real concern lol
It'd be nice to show some information while the player loads in for 8 minutes with their 1900MB download though 💀

[steep lion]

custom loadscreen in gmod only exists because servers started putting tons of contents to download

[rose atlas]

their previous server listing concept allowed us to post information and screenshots about our servers before a user joins...

[fleet isle]

Gotta put a whole movie on the loading screen because of gigabytes of content

[sharp lake]

Yeah, but I'd imagine the loading screen would hide that

I suppose it could just do a spinny circle or whatever

[silver bronze]

I mean the bee movie fits in a GIF, if you can accept slightly reduced quality 😄

[rose atlas]

i wish i can post media man

[sharp lake]

I don't think it's that important whether you can change the loading screen lmao

[steep lion]

can you display html elements to players while they are in server

[fleet isle]

considering it's during the time you download stuff from the server I doubt it will be possible... but maybe when you're transfering from a server to server then maaaaaybe?

[fleet isle]

don't give the advertising companies ideas

[steep lion]

it depends on how customizable the ui would be in hytale but it'd be funny if people start building react like tech

some fancy minecraft servers actually do that in their own propriatery code

[rose atlas]

Cant wait to play.. literally only 27 days left

[silver bronze]

Yeah I have seen servers with dynamically loaded ads based on region being displayed that send you to other servers when clicked etc.

[silver cloak]

Do you think it's worth paying for 1 big server instead of owning multiple small ones?

[fleet isle]

I don't need to see Hytale + React + TypeScript running together, I've seen on the web and it can stay there

[steep lion]

if hytale allows servers to dynamically customize ui elements its inevitable someone builds react translation layer 🥴

[silver cloak]

Thankfully the ui is just a java wrapper 🙏

[silver bronze]

Bad Apple with Hytale UI elements when

[fleet isle]

3rd day after EA launches... nah, jk, idk

[silver cloak]

I will be def cooking my own ui wrapper.. html / CSS style

[sharp lake]

I hope they let us draw a singular triangle of any size 😂

[fleet isle]

if Hytale allows a webview component, it's so over... Hytale will then become another web browser

[sharp lake]

I doubt they're going to give us a web-view component

I wonder if the UIs will be 3D in any way

Like, if you can have an inventory model instead of an inventory texture
Peering into a backpack, with an animation and everything

[silver cloak]

oof that would be nice

I think thats how it is, considering the whole game is plugins

[sharp lake]

If they're not 3D, I'd imagine there will be ways to open a dedicated 3D one eventually
Otherwise you just have to put it in the game world I suppose, but it'd be simpler to avoid that

[fleet isle]

I mean, they did show a 3D player character when you open the inventory right? So it should be possible theoretically?

[sharp lake]

Yeah if they let us, that kind of thing could be reasonably hard-coded though

And since we're dealing with UIs, now it's a client thing

So we'd need a pretty mature client API
I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thing is unavailable at launch

[silver cloak]

I would probably limit myself before I get sugar rush from too much candy. Everything seems possible

what...

[fleet isle]

Best I can tell from the Creative Mode Gameplay video, it may be locked to just being able to display 3D model as a background and not as a front element

[silver cloak]

Isn't the creative mode a plugin too?

[sharp lake]

it actually might be

I wonder how the hell that works

[silver cloak]

Slikey said some features are not yet plugins but eventually will be

Machinima panel too

[rose atlas]

Simon keeps saying server sends mods to clients.

[sharp lake]

Yeah I'm genuinely curious how far they've gotten with UIs provided by plugins

[silver cloak]

Damn I wonder if the machinima section is client side or server side

[silver cloak]

Remember the code snippet for ui?

[sharp lake]

That was a deprecated system, wasn't it? Like one they ditched later

[silver cloak]

High chances the creative tools are plugins

[rose atlas]

Built in afaik

[silver cloak]

Deprecated in what way? they mentioned they are moving to noesis

[sharp lake]

That would be an incredibly impressive reference plugin to look at

[silver cloak]

fr

[sharp lake]

Studio grade build tools, help UI and everything

[fleet isle]

Simon's definition of "mods" is way different than a Minecraft mod. Under his definition a Hytale Adventure Map created by community is a mod

[silver cloak]

Dude, of course and it's a plugin because the ui snippet is in JAVA, the client is in c#

I just thought about it 😭

[sharp lake]

2.8 "Mods" means modifications, plugins, scripts, maps, skins, models, and similar content users may create for the Game, which comprise users' original creative work, subject to the terms and conditions in the EULA.

[rose atlas]

So mods/plugins are a thing. Cool.

[sharp lake]

This is indeed a definition for a legal document, so it might not be the colloquial definition he intends, but it's one floating around

It's a catch-all to make sure they don't miss anything

[stray pasture]

The real definition of mods.

[steep lion]

someone had the ridiculous idea of making an hytale (partial) implementation of bukkit api 💀

in theory you could have a really abstract api that works for both minecraft and hytale but it can't do anything specific to either of the games

[sharp lake]

yeah, but who really wants that lol

[steep lion]

probably would be fun for somebody's random weekend project

[fleet isle]

someone will be dedicated enough... like those people that want to rewrite the entire server in a different programming language

[steep lion]

oh yea someone will rewrite hytale server in rust to achieve that ✨ blazingly fast ✨ performance

[karmic bane]

Rust is probably more about safety rather than speed but faster than Java probably, if done well

[cursive bramble]

rust compiles straight to machine code, so it's in the same ballpark as c++

[steep lion]

hytale server in pure assembly

[karmic bane]

Many things compile to machine code, but machine code is not all the same yk. It's arouuund the same ballpark but also not really

depending on how you look at it

[cursive bramble]

rustc literally uses llvm as a backend, do you even know what you're talking about lmao

you can compare rustc instruction output in compiler explorer with gcc or clang

[karmic bane]

Yeah clang too, but generate the same code in both languages into LLVM IR and you'll see that it very much depends on usage

[halcyon garnet]

Hi, I'm new to Discord, is the server example available yet? I'd like to host it on an Ubuntu VPS, would that work?

[steep lion]

sadly not yet

i really wish they provided at least some basic testing tools to ensure the server setup would work when it releases (especially useful for testing UDP/QUIC routing setups)

[west elk]

No, it will be available when the game comes out. Ubuntu VPS will work, you only need to set up Java

They're planning to release a selfhosting guide a short while before the release.

[halcyon garnet]

It would be great if they made the server repository available on Github, and provided an easy and simple way to install what's needed to run the server.

[karmic bane]

I mean Release is not really meant to have Servers already up and running, it wouldn't make sense to put that much effort into releasing tools just for a few days of headstart when everyone will have to explore the game on the first day anyway

[west elk]

Yes the server code will be published some time in the future.
The only thing that's really needed is Java though. pretty simple

[steep lion]

ill probably just make sure some basic ping pong connection with a quic server/client works

and hope it'll work when hytale relases

do we have information on what port it uses by default, or a preferred port though

[karmic bane]

i dont think so

[steep lion]

im hoping the server browser makes it so that players don't have to manually specify the port

[violet sorrel]

Did they already mentioned something in regard to offline mode or do you guys expect I would need multiple accounts to test stuff for more players 😅

[loud raft]

Hmm have any devs commented on serving content from CDNs?

[peak fjord]

I will make a rewrite of Hytale server in C# using unmanaged code to achieve this kind of performance in performance critical scenarios

[steep lion]

that honestly sounds just like resource packs in minecraft

with the extra functionality to directly send data to players from server (like minecraft bedrock)

[peak fjord]

Rust is good for memory safety and performance, but a mess about the plugin system etc. The learning curve is insane to make something simple

[loud raft]

With integration of harmonyx?

[peak fjord]

Dont need to use harmony 😀

Harmony is used to patch binaries, so its not needed in my case

I will allow devs to make their own plugin and loading it using native C# lib loading

[loud raft]

Hmm, guess you’ll have a way to monkey patch natively right?

Speaking of, do you know if they build the client using NativeAOT? If so that probably stops you from using harmony lol

[karmic bane]

Yes NativeAOT is used

[cursive bramble]

i'm planning to write a server implementation in rust and use wasm components for plugins

[steep lion]

minecraft community went too crazy that we already have several people planning to rewrite the server for the upcoming game that has not been released yet

[stray pasture]

I dont expect yall to have feature parity. 😄 That is not a realistic expection unless Hypixel is slow moving. 😛

[loud raft]

It’s gonna be a like that xkcd panel with 20 competing rewrites lol

[stray pasture]

Competition is always good! We get choices!!!

[loud raft]

True

Haven’t written Java since first year university lol, should probably brush it up

[stray pasture]

Nah! 😛

[formal burrow]

syncthing is an INSANE PROGRAM

ive never used it before... was toying around with Vast AI gpus, was rendering a minecraft animation with 4 gpus

[gloomy wren]

Is the january 13 release expected to have the ability of making working multiplayer servers?

[blissful crane]

yes, just a program that sync files between two pc or more

[west elk]

yes

[gloomy wren]

aight thanks

[kindred crescent]

And then many of them will realise it's actually pretty hard to do

[peak fjord]

If we can decompile the server itself, we can now packets

If we dont, wireshark will become my new best friend for few weeks 😁

[remote widget]

Hello, I've started following Hytale news again after the pre-sale began.
I saw some statements from Simon online, mainly about servers; there have been many changes since I stopped following the updates.

Could you tell me what the base language is for developing plugins and mods in Hytale? Also, has there been any statement about "unofficial" player access to the servers?

Thank you in advance.

[peak fjord]

Java

You can't mod the client, there is no plan to do that

[kindred crescent]

Language for plugins/mods: Java
Clarification: Mods are all server side. The client is not moddable. The client is in C# (compiled with Native AOT).
The game will be accessible to everybody on january 13th.

Additionally, they plan on having node scripts (like blueprints in Unreal Engine) for non-programmers. Models can be made and animated with Blockbench. Assets of the game can be modified with the Assets Editor.

[peak fjord]

Whats the .NET version used for the client side ?

[kindred crescent]

Used to be .NET Framework 4.7.2, but they moved to .NET 10 since the acquisition. They also got rid of the platform specific dependencies.

[peak fjord]

All good 😎

[west elk]

Keep in mind they're using AOT to compile it down to machine code so editing the client won't really be possible

[peak fjord]

Reverse engineering 👀

But that will be a ton of work

[wary escarp]

Does anyone know the server requirements? I want to create one when the game launches.

[sharp lake]

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[kindred crescent]

That's what he's saying, reverse engineering a native aot app will be much harder

[peak fjord]

Sure, that's why im saying that will be a ton of work 😋

[remote widget]

I understand, being developed in Java is a bit worrying, at least in relation to Brazil.
I don't have a very in-depth knowledge beyond developing plugins as a hobby in Minecraft, but Java's poor performance in relation to high memory consumption has always been a problem.

Besides, VPS or even shared servers with a reasonable amount of memory here don't usually have a very attractive price.

[peak fjord]

What is source shared in this project ?

[kindred crescent]

The server code

[wary escarp]

thank you so much

[peak fjord]

Good to hear

[peak fjord]

At the game launch or later ?

[kindred crescent]

Minecraft is made in java. Most of the modding community is using the java edition. It would be dumb to use another language

[kindred crescent]

Later. Last I heard, they said "1-2 months after launch" because of legal stuff

[sharp lake]

It's unobfuscated, so you can just decompile in the mean time

[peak fjord]

C# looks like java 👀

[peak fjord]

Perfect

[kindred crescent]

Trust me, I'd love for mods to be in C# instead of Java lol

[peak fjord]

That's my goal too

That's why i will sent weeks to make a C# server

[kindred crescent]

You won't be alone.
People that want to make a server port to C# should try to get together

[loud raft]

But way cleaner

[remote widget]

It's understandable, but with the ease of access to information nowadays, it wouldn't be so bad to seek knowledge in another language.
Especially if, in exchange for this "work," we get better performance compared to other servers.

[loud raft]

Honestly if someone gets kotlin plugins working I’ll probably use that over Java

[west elk]

Java performance isn't bad

[kindred crescent]

The server code will be open-source. The community is already planning on doing ports to C# and Rust

[sharp lake]

i think y'all are crazy lmfao
it's an early access title and the server can already handle double the number of players a vanilla minecraft server can
because all the content is server-side, you're going to be dealing with new features 24/7

they already confirmed that there are going to be nightly-style releases, and that they only plan to support the last few releases, if not exclusively the latest release

[vernal niche]

Shouldn't be an issue. A jar is a jar is a jar

[remote widget]

Não é ruim definitivamente, e está bem melhor do que já foi no passado.
Porem deve se admitir que há opções mais viaveis, e com isso fico contente em saber que a comunidade busca criar uma portabilidade do servidor para outras linguagens.

[peak fjord]

Sure, but C# can be far better in a lot of cases, without speaking about performances

[west elk]

?

[kindred crescent]

? English please

[remote widget]

It's definitely not bad, and it's much better than it used to be.
However, it must be admitted that there are more viable options, and with that I'm glad to know that the community is seeking to create a server that can be ported to other languages.

I made a mistake pressing ctrl + c

[west elk]

No, I don't think it must be admitted that there are more viable options (suggestions?). Java is an excellent choice for this project, given the extensive experience of the Hypixel team, the target audience, performance requirements, and the core goal of moddability as a first-class citizen.

also being able to rely on the JVM for all of the low-level stuff (platform compatibility, memory management, tooling, etc) is a huge plus for development velocity

[vernal niche]

It will be very interesting to see if alternative server implementations will manage to stay relevant if they give up compatibility with the Java-based plugin ecosystem.

(And if people build a shim, if that doesn't eat up all the performance benefits the alternative server would have)

[kindred crescent]

I could see big networks like Hypixel doing their own server implementation with their own custom plugins

[lament steeple]

i think it'll be possible to achieve plugin development on another language with an alternative server implantation. the real pain is being able to make the api work with it

[jolly moon]

It’s also probably the only way it was possible to ship Linux & Mac at launch, it would’ve been infinitely more difficult to make a stable build for multi platform in early access if it didn’t have Java at the core

[lament steeple]

with how many people are clowning on java (including me), you really can't forget this quality

[jolly moon]

I mean this is exactly why wrappers exist… I’m sure someone will make “go4tale” or some dumb name that wraps the hytale api for go compatibility

[vernal niche]

You really can't imagine how many game servers are Windows only

[loud raft]

Hi-C (c++ wrapper)

[lament steeple]

finally i can run a backend server on my hytale server

[jolly moon]

Java hate is so forced 😭 built in gc/mem management, strong OOP, interop with kotlin, and in 99% of situations it is as efficient as C++ if you know how to write good code and use stuff like project loom and other newer language features

[prisma agate]

Not really, the client itself is in C# not java, and the hard part of portability are the graphics/audio APIs, which java/C# don't really fix

[lament steeple]

agreed. It just becomes a meme at this point and people take it seriously

[jolly moon]

The client is fully C#?

[loud raft]

Yeh

[kindred crescent]

Relevant here, new tweet from @random magnet (1/2):

If I had to add one more thing: the modding strategy I posted has flaws. I said that explicitly, multiple times. It is incomplete, and we are continuing to iterate on it.

One concrete example is client-local scripts and client-local asset packs. I did not properly account for the amount of client customization that is possible without client modification. Through our equivalent of data packs, we can actually do quite a lot here.

Yes, this approach appears limiting. Yes, Hytale is more limited than Unreal, Unity, or true Wild West modding.

Those limits are not arbitrary. They exist because they allow modders - and us - to reach a massive audience, keep players safe, and build a UGC ecosystem that can scale. Our goal is to push UGC into a new golden age, with a model that simply hasn't existed before.

On features like shaders, LODs, cubic chunks, etc.: I love these topics. Trust me, we want to make Hytale the golden standard for block game technology. How that all looks years from now is unpredictable. We work on many things we don't talk about, and some of them may eventually materialize in one form or another.

We have very high aspirations for Hytale but for now: We will release ASAP. Take LODs and cubic chunks as an example. We are already working on chunks and voxel storage at a level more fundamental than cubic chunks. This is an order-of-operations problem. One step at a time and the next step is.

So I don't want you to fish for promises - because we wish our promises to remain special and reliable. Judge us by our actions, and hold us accountable for whether this direction is the right one.
The honest answer to most "will you add X?" questions is: we could. If you ask, "Do you want this in Hytale?"- the answer is more than likely yes.

Right now, we have a list of high-priority, foundational problems that must be solved first. While doing that, we'll continue picking up smaller community improvements where it makes sense - often while we're already performing "surgery" on adjacent systems.

For modders specifically: please work with creators who can help surface concerns clearly and constructively - people like @sly grotto or @native idol. Form a focused group, articulate real problems and real needs, and bring that feedback with a unified, constructive voice. That is how we make this better together.

[prisma agate]

Maybe it's as efficient as cpp because people write terrible OOP and RAII "modern" cpp code which destroys performance

[jolly moon]

Or just the fact that JIT/runtime compilation can outperform basically anything that isn’t hyper optimized bare metal C or assembly, and considering we aren’t trying to write a video encoder the performance from Java along with its mature dependency ecosystem (gradle/maven) is a very good choice to build a modding platform on

[prisma agate]

Eh not really, when u jit u don't get as much time to do more fancy optimizations, so it'd always be less optimized than the equivalent C code using LLVM, also not to speak of the GC slowing it a bit more, there is def a significant performance hit from C vs Java.
U can't argue it's not significant or doesn't exist, u can argue that it's a worthy tradeoff but that's debatable

Also video games are one of the most demanding industries where performance actually matters, which is why things like ECS, game engines, etc are usually written in C/cpp

[jolly moon]

Nah yeah that’s what I’m saying, sure (well written) C and ASM are going to be faster, but it doesn’t really matter because this isn’t a video encoder, it’s a game server that does not need that level of optimization, and something with the simplicity of Java, along with a more mature ecosystem than smth like rust or go are big advantages

[jolly moon]

Well for the client to run sure, but it sounds like mods are mostly if not completely server side

Which isn’t doing any graphic rendering so 🤷‍♂️

[prisma agate]

U r misunderstanding, sure we don't need ffmpeg level of optimizations and write assembly, but u can write C, and it's not really that hard and still get something between hand written assembly and java

[wet vine]

I do plan on making a modified version of the server with mixin support

[lilac stratus]

Hytale will have a built-in mod library in the client right? What kind of web tools do you think we need? My experience is in web development/minecraft plugins/etc but honestly i'm going to be heavily relying on others for mods and may need to do some of it myself with what we want to do

[wet vine]

So that will be fun :3

[halcyon grove]

java is open

[prisma agate]

Actually servers need to scale by players, servers run all the simulations, and they do so at least 20 times per second (in Minecraft, but other games sometimes do it way more often)
It can be the difference between 100 and 200 players on the server

Also not saying their decision is bad, java was probably the right choice due to familiarity in the Minecraft modding community, but it is definitely not "performant enough"

[wet vine]

A Fabric dev told me that it would be a horrible idea but I just kinda want to mixin into random stuff

[loud raft]

Do they plan on making a hytale mod loader?

[wet vine]

Obviously not

[silver cloak]

You don't need a mod loader, you will be dowloading mods just like you download mc resource packs

[wet vine]

Besides. I only know a singular fabric dev.

[silver cloak]

Mods are heavily regulated so you won't be downloading rats or anything. They are strictly HYTALE API

[wet vine]

And I wanted to mess with mixins specifically

[kindred crescent]

The client cannot be moded 🙂

[silver cloak]

you will be downloading an asset pack basically. The server holds the functionality*

[limber widget]

do we have a date of when the server software/documentation for it is going to be public so we can start working on servers or will that be the same day as launch?

[lament steeple]

mods are server side

[loud raft]

Meant a plugin loader, unless that’s planned to be supported by hytale themselves

[kindred crescent]

What do you mean by plugin loader?

[loud raft]

Something that loads plugins serverside

[jolly moon]

I mean… Minecraft is also still mostly single threaded and has been able to run pretty good… imagine a well written game engine with concurrency in Java… but yeah it’s probably due to familiarity that they chose Java.

[kindred crescent]

Well of course, the whole game is made of multiple plugins 🙂

[wet vine]

It'd be hilarious if those are hardcoded with sh**code to rival notch's

[prisma agate]

Minecraft has horrible performance, I wouldn't use it for comparison

[west elk]

We get the server.jar and documentation on launch day, but there will probably be a hosting guide a bit earlier

[limber widget]

sick. thank you

[kindred crescent]

Slikey did post some code before. If you go in the searchbar and search "from:slikey", you can go in the history to find the pictures 🙂

[jolly moon]

Another thing a lot of people overlook is the sandbox-ability of Java, I couldn’t imagine trying to write a C API that wouldn’t be trivial to accidentally leak memory addresses in, compared to Java that actually has fairly good tools to sandbox (jar in jar, Java agents etc), but I also might just not know enough about C’s “sandbox ecosystem”

[prisma agate]

Btw not true, only parts of it are plugins, most of it is hardcoded

[wet vine]

Eh. I don't think it matters much here besides just being a bytecode target

[prisma agate]

Well idk most, but that was my interpretation of Slikey message

[wet vine]

The nicest things about C# and Java is just that the bytecode output is somewhat mappable to the source code and modifiable at runtime.

Thing hytale doesn't leverage at all cuz no mixins

Which is probably why riot was moving to a more performant language like Cpp?

[kindred crescent]

correct, everything is a plugin, some ar jar's and others are just shaded in but you can compile them out.. its far from perfect atm
ultimate goal is that yes the server core is basically just a plugin loader with basic network stack, protocol, ECS and logging / profiling

Yes, they still have hardcoded stuff, but like 1-2 months after the launch? I just feel like it's useless to say "Well actually, some of it is..." when it might not be the case 3 months after the launch

Yes and no. The server is composed of around 70 modules / plugins. There are still many things in the "Core Server" which we are trying to pull out to increase modularity but it takes a bit. A lot of systems are in plugins so that you can simply disable them to save performance if you don't need those subsystems for your minigame / server usecase.

@loud raft

the modding system is the combination of
Plugin Loader
Asset System
ECS

those together allow complete composition for pretty much everything on the server

[loud raft]

That answers my question nice

[prisma agate]

On the server u don't really sandbox u trust it, plugins can just write to files and shi, same with spigot plugins in Minecraft, so no need for sandbox, on the client I'd recommend lua so it's actually fully sandboxed

[wet vine]

Thank God it's ECS

[kindred crescent]

That must be really nice to hear considering your earlier worry about notch code lol

[wet vine]

You bet!

[prisma agate]

Based on "many" I assume it's most, and I doubt it'd change much after 3 months, I feel like people are too optimistic for Hytale

[kindred crescent]

Now all that is left is for the community to grasp and understand what an ECS system is like lol

[lilac stratus]

Everyone is eager to move on from Minecraft so Hytale isn't optimistic enough imo

[wet vine]

The community when the game doesn't run at zero FPS:
[Parrot eating cracker meme]

[prisma agate]

Wdym Hytale isn't optimistic enough?

[lilac stratus]

Entity Component System (ECS):

• Entities are just IDs
• Components are data attached to entities
• Systems operate on entities with specific components
  This means:
• You can add/remove components at runtime
• You can create new systems that react to components
• You can redefine behavior by changing composition, not code
• You can build complex logic by combining simple components
  ECS is basically Lego for game logic.

[kindred crescent]

I mean, what I plan to do on Hytale's release is:

1. Try the exploration mode
2. Once I'm done, try some building (I really want to build trees!)
3. Build a parkour map
4. Build a dungeon (or multiple)

Is that reasonable 😛 ?

[lilac stratus]

🧠 A simple example
Let’s say you want to create a flying wolf.
Asset System

• Define a new wolf variant
• Add a “flying” component
• Add a “glow” component
• Add a “loot table” asset
  ECS
• A “FlyingSystem” moves entities with FlyingComponent
• A “GlowSystem” handles glow logic
• A “LootSystem” handles drops
  Plugin Loader
• Loads your systems
• Registers your assets
• Hooks into events
  You never modify the base wolf code.
  You just compose a new creature.

[jolly moon]

Wasn’t this part of the “new engine” developed by riot though? I didn’t think that was developed by the old hypixel team?

[wet vine]

Thanks gpt

[lilac stratus]

i use copilot for low-thinking stuff lol

[prisma agate]

I asked Slikey and he said java version also has ECS, although he said it's way less optimized than flecs

[kindred crescent]

They had a custom ECS in their old engine. They used FLECS in the new one because it's better than what they can reasonably come up with

[jolly moon]

Ahhh ok

[prisma agate]

Not sure what ur point is

[kindred crescent]

I feel like people are too optimistic for Hytale
I know it's not what you were going for, still thought it was a little funny comment and somewhat relevant 🙂

[prisma agate]

There is no actual game loop afaik, their main aim was very good modding at the start so there is what to do until they can get a playable game but their modding is mediocre imo but for some reason people give them the benefit of the doubt and think it's more advanced than it probably is

[jolly moon]

Someone told me they are aiming to integrate a visual scripting platform which is cool to get newer devs involved

[kindred crescent]

You seem to be the one expecting too much right now...

[prisma agate]

They said it'd be early access for a few years, it'd not take 3 months to do that

[kindred crescent]

3 months, 1 year, it's all the same

[prisma agate]

I think it's a waste of time, their direction isn't great imo

[kindred crescent]

How so?

[prisma agate]

Making a good visual programming language is a ton of effort, effort that should be spent on the actual game

[kindred crescent]

Different people can work on different things. Spending time to make a tool for non-programmers to be able to make mods is not a waste of time.

[prisma agate]

To make a good one it'd probably take at least a year of full time work by at least 1 guy, that's 3000 hours u could've spent improving other stuff

[jolly moon]

I disagree, the biggest draw to Minecraft is the fact that it is easily sandboxed, I started programming 7+ years ago because I wanted to make Minecraft plugins, scratch inspired countless developers to learn real coding back in its prime, and history has shown that making coding accessible in a fun way (to mod a game) can inspire generations of developers

[silver cloak]

modding is crucial. Creators that don't have coding knowledge need to be onboarded ASAP

[jolly moon]

I think it’s an invaluable asset to the game, and could be what sets it apart from anything else in the industry

[kindred crescent]

Making a visual node editor is not very difficult to do... Sure the nodes behind may take some time to make, but I doubt it would take a year to do.

[silver cloak]

Slikey said the first visual scripting will come in 4 months after launch

[kindred crescent]

Much faster than 1 year!

[silver cloak]

He was replying to me in the discussion thread

[wet vine]

Assuming flecs is a cpp library. Why not use java 21's foreign function API and just build a JNI wrapper around it?

[prisma agate]

Yea sure I also got into this from Minecraft, but Minecraft doesn't have a graphical scripting language, and look at it, I don't think having it is any benefit, there are plenty of ways to teach normal programming in a fun way (see boot.dev for example, basically dnd for learning to code)

[kindred crescent]

I don't know! Maybe because they already have an ECS that works. Maybe they would do it but it would take too much time and changing too much

[prisma agate]

If u want a language like scratch equivalent then it'd maybe take more, designing a programming language takes time (I Kno this because I am working on one)

[silver cloak]

Everything is third party and it's very hard to understand!

[jolly moon]

Wow dnd for code, it’s almost like it’s an innovation in the industry… doing something creative that no one else has done well before… it’s almost like a visual code editor for a video game is innovative and new to the industry lmao

[wet vine]

I'd be so happy if they dropped most of the JSON for just a scripting language like Lua

[kindred crescent]

A visual node editor is NOT a programming language

[wet vine]

And nuked mcfunctions from orbit

[silver cloak]

mcfunctions most complex shi on planet earth ong

[wet vine]

What is the difference?

[prisma agate]

Yea exactly, that's what I want as well

[west elk]

I disagree

[fringe ore]

What limitations are we gonna see right outta the gate? We gonna decompile server software to understand how they've done it?

[kindred crescent]

It's just a structure of a bunch of components that go together to make a result.
In fact, we will be able to make custom node components with Java.

[prisma agate]

Are there conditions and loops? Then it is

[jolly moon]

Because JNI code is actually so miserable to deal with, and I think it would generally just be easier to write a new ECS engine than to try and deal with native functions, especially with something as crucial as the entity system 💀

[wet vine]

Well, an AST is a series of connected nodes and that's step 1 to compile anything

[kindred crescent]

It's all just Java under the hood, that's what I mean

[jolly moon]

I did one in 3 months for a school course solo, if I can do it alone in 1 semester I’m sure a team of skilled devs can make something good in under a year 💀

[prisma agate]

-# ackshually u do tokenization first, but usually ppl put it inside parsing

[jolly moon]

💀💀

[prisma agate]

Not really, languages usually take at least 5 years, usually 10 to get good and usable

[vernal niche]

Didn't want to interrupt the ongoing discussion here but just posted something to #discussion that I know some of you in here were interested in.

[jolly moon]

It isn’t a going to be fully Turing completely language with a dependency ecosystem, concurrency etc 😭 it just needs to be able to interface with the hytale API

[wet vine]

I mean... If it's just a wrapper for a glorified builder pattern

[jolly moon]

That’s what I’m sayinggg lol

[fringe ore]

Ty, very interesting

[prisma agate]

It is useless if it's not Turing complete, the other stuff doesn't need to be in the language itself but rather it's standard library (or in Hytale s case, API)

[jolly moon]

8gb for 10 players 💀

[wet vine]

Also, you don't need a standard library for a visual scripting language like this

[fringe ore]

Thats recommended

[wet vine]

You're just connecting components together, if you need actual business logic go write a new component

[fringe ore]

So i mean efficency and updates should be better over time right

[kindred crescent]

Yes

[jolly moon]

Bingo

[prisma agate]

Well u do, u just call it "built-in nodes", obviously u need less stuff, but a standard library isn't such a time waster, it's usually mostly the language itself

[jolly moon]

From the sounds of it, its essentially just going to be a script generator that will transpile nodes into simple predictable functions

In which case you can build your node tree and then switch to Java and use its standard library to tweak functionality not available in nodes

At least that’s how I would imagine it would work

[wet vine]

I wanted to build that for #1441742489533943809. The idea was to be able to build logic circuits with a little IC designer table that would produce an entire redstone circuit in block. The catch is that I wanted to compile that to WASM and run it asynchronously from the world.

[prisma agate]

Scripting language was for client side stuff iirc

[wet vine]

So I would take a collection of ANDs, ORs and NOTs, simplify it to hell, then build a wasm module that does the thing and compile it.

The other guys told me it was a bit much for our scope lmfao. They are right.

Still on my list for later tho!

[peak fjord]

800go ram for 1000 players

[prisma agate]

Scaling won't be linear

[jolly moon]

That’s if it scales linearly

[peak fjord]

Sure

[prisma agate]

You'd probably run into compute issues way before

[wet vine]

Imagine if it's quadratic

[peak fjord]

But its really big compared to other game servers

[prisma agate]

Might be, if there is some for each playerA for each playerB

[peak fjord]

Or exponential 😭

A power of 2 for each 10 players 😄

[jolly moon]

Slap an AMD epyc in there and you’ll hit thermal limits before either of those issues lol

[silver bronze]

Anything you can say about what is driving RAM usage up so much? Is it simply chunk loading or is world generation itself using a lot of memory during computations? As your message sortof implies the latter, the way I read it at least

[jolly moon]

Luckily the Minecraft dev community is known for hyper optimizing anything and everything they can lol

[wet vine]

We should hijack the openAI datacenters and put them to an actually good use

[loud raft]

Wonder if someone could come up with a fivem like system to handle 1000+ players

[prisma agate]

They r mostly GPUs tho

[jolly moon]

(Also can servers do pre-generation to lower runtime RAM usage)

[vernal niche]

Just answered a similar question in the other channel. Our stress tests were focused on the worst case what players can do, which is chunk generation in multiple independent areas. It might use less without world generation, but that's not validated.

[wet vine]

We can use those to run hytale

[light lance]

My bread and butter running minecraft servers on cheap VPS's for my friends lmao

[peak fjord]

FiveM use a bucket system to split players
Instead of having 1000 players, you have 128 players per buckets and only players in the same bucket can see each others. So you save a lot of performance, because you dont sync players who are not in your bucket

[loud raft]

🤔

[jolly moon]

I mean this is what hypixel does with instancing

[unborn river]

Il y a t'il une posibilité de pre generer les chunk ?

[jolly moon]

No lobby holds more than 100 players concurrently

[unborn river]

Is there a possibility of pregenerating chunk?

[wet vine]

I have a very important question, is it fun? :3

[loud raft]

It’s different with fivem no? Everyone is technically in the same lobby but you only see 128 players

[vernal niche]

I actually do not know that. But if it isn't, I assume it will take a very short amount of time for someone to build a plugin for that.

[peak fjord]

You can setup your own player/bucket limit

[peak fjord]

We should have a server option to do that

I think 🤔

[vernal niche]

The vast majority of my play time is trying to get a server to crash, but I had a lot of fun building my lil house, exploring some caves and being scared by small lil critters in the dark (I'm a baby)

[jolly moon]

Ok now I’m confused, how would this help performance? Why place 1000 players on the same instance and use say 100 players per buckets rather than just having 10 instances that hold 100 players?

Is it saving on the overhead each instance has? I guess??

[stray pasture]

I'm confused by your confusion

[peak fjord]

You have for example 10 buckets that own 100 players
Only players in your bucket are synced. You dont sync players who are not in your bucket. So in this case, instead of syncing 1000 players, you only sync 100 players (players in the same bucket as you).

If multiple buckets are nears of each others, you sync all near buckets

[jolly moon]

The idea of how FiveM works just doesn’t sound like it would help performance

[silver bronze]

Any chance you can do a "stripped-down" benchmark André? Just trying to see what the load is of a bunch of people vibing in something like the Hypixel lobby in size. Try and see how many players the game can handle for just a chill hangout rather than full gameplay, (no chunk loading/worldgen) which could be cool for tons of things.

[peak fjord]

My first explanation was bad

[light lance]

Thats a pretty cool way of saving performance

[loud raft]

Why not?

[jolly moon]

Oh so players are moved dynamically between buckets based on their location to only render/sync other players in their region?

[loud raft]

They can scale Upto 2048 players afiak

[peak fjord]

Exact

[stray pasture]

Sounds like MMO region management.

[peak fjord]

Its almost the same principe as the chunk system. You only load chunk that you see / around you
You dont need to load 10 000 chunk forward :p

[jolly moon]

Oh I guess that’s pretty cool, but only really applicable to open world servers and not too useful for smth like mini game servers

[jagged comet]

Hi all, is there a channel for server-admin recruitment? Like a place to join up with others making early servers?

[peak fjord]

You can always use the bucket system for mini games
If you have a mini game server, you can hold 1000 players on the same server, but only sync players that is in the same mini game as you

[vernal niche]

This is an interesting scenario. I will suggest it, but will say that it takes significant effort to pull a very large amount of people together for an internal test, and we have to be pretty deliberate about the scenarios we test. On the Nitrado side we are currently focusing on the scenarios that are most realistic for our typical customer servers.

[stray pasture]

Make em chunks tiny tiny! 😄

[wet vine]

I assume you don't have client code otherwise you'd just use a swarm of bots?

[stray pasture]

Are bots testing really the same?

[jolly moon]

Ok at that point just make a new instance though 😭 all the players you are going to see are already going to be in render view so no need for it

[stray pasture]

Well, but this has other ramifications like same world state.

Or redis world sync!!

Distributed hytale server

[vernal niche]

Damn I should really have put the word ramification in my post

[stray pasture]

Ya now thinking about it. 1k players is a ramification of its own...

[wet vine]

You just want a whole bunch of clients spamming the server with random requests and sucking up different parts of world data

Seems pretty simulatable for a server lobby right?

[stray pasture]

Yeah your right!

[wet vine]

Oh? What am I missing?

[stray pasture]

Nothing as far as I am aware. I just didn't use my brain when asking that question.

Happens a lot...

[wet vine]

Thought it was sarcasm lol

[loud raft]

A bucket system be a cool endeavour for hytale 🤔

I have no distributed systems experience tho so it’s out of my skill set lol

[wet vine]

My distributed systems experience is bringing down a Minecraft server I was in 3 digits worth of times.

And getting my own database nuked

[fleet isle]

Losing data one way or another must be the first experience whenever dealing with any kind of server management

[wet vine]

Bobby drop tables is a cannon event

A rite of passage even

[sharp lake]

copy-on-write where

when i do dumb stuff i just roll it back, like

[stray pasture]

Dont worry. We make this up as we go!

[vernal niche]

There is a German joke about distributed systems that can't be translated (Verteilte Systeme sind eventuell konsistent)

[stray pasture]

YHuh.

[sharp lake]

lmfao

[stray pasture]

I never understood German humor 😉

||I cant read it, so I have no clue what it says||

[sharp lake]

i think the joke is that they're basically never consistent
but it is not one i've heard before, so it could be something else 💀

[karmic bane]

yea same

[sharp lake]

it feels similar to when someone tells you to buckle in, because it "should" prevent you from flying through the windshield

[stray pasture]

One day I will make a distributed game server and they all run lock step deterministic - One day.

[summer loom]

German. Joke?

[silver bronze]

Is that a pun on eventually and the word actually meaning maybe? 😅

[karmic bane]

Andre explain your germanness

[summer loom]

Specifically the idea of "eventual consistency" yeah

[vernal niche]

Never

[sharp lake]

My German is from books and flirting and nothing in-between 😍

[karmic bane]

Peak german response

[delicate crag]

German developer to an english one: Please use the actual password.
English developer: Wait... was I using a fake password before?

[kindred crescent]

Tweet from Slikey:

Yeah, inside of the world configuration, you simply set the pregeneration region and it will ensure that this area is generated before players can join. This should definitely reduce runtime world generation overhead.

[rose atlas]

i wonder can we customize how the world generates or no tools for that yet?

[kindred crescent]

Yes we can.

We're building Hytale with modding at its core. Most of what you see in the game can be changed, extended, or removed entirely. Blocks, Items, NPCs, World Generation, UIs, systems, and behaviours are all driven by data and code that you can influence.

Data Assets - JSON files
Drive gameplay behaviour and define core content:
Blocks, items, NPCs
World generation
Drop tables, loot, and more.

An unfinished internal editor we used as a temporary solution for world generation, creative tool brushes, NPCs and hopefully more soon.

You can see a picture of the node graph editor in the modding blogpost.

[rose atlas]

oh ok cool

[formal burrow]

swedish humor too, because you have to put their jokes together to get them

[elfin heart]

Hopefully there is proxy support. For networks to be built. Really looking forward to making a high scale server.

[cursive granite]

a

[summer otter]

Even if there isn't one natively. I think we can use other networking tools to allow doing this as well. Maybe with some modifications like networking plugins on the software. Well we will see ultimately. I do hope it's also build into the server jar but we have to see and hope for the best

[west elk]

They natively support transfer packets so for most use cases you don't even need a proxy

[elfin heart]

Can you show me where this was mentioned I’d like to research more as I plan on buying a few dedicated servers and running docker networks so I wanna be sure before I start purchasing servers

[elfin heart]

Thanks

[sharp lake]

I wouldn't say for most use cases
If you want to do load distribution and stuff, you still want one

It's just a normal proxy like Nginx, you don't need a special hacky one like we did with Minecraft

[modest burrow]

Has the server side been tested for performance or are they expecting everyone to horizontally scale. I assume they expect everyone to horizontally scale when it requires dev ops and the community is made of Minecraft Java devs

[vernal niche]

Can nginx do QUIC?

[stray pasture]

They are testing for performance. 70 players so far!

[modest burrow]

Only 70 players?

[stray pasture]

Well it is a Voxel game written in Java. 😄

[modest burrow]

The bad performance for voxels refers to the client side, not server side as much

[stray pasture]

No it applies plenty to the server.

[modest burrow]

Sure for some things like physics

[vernal niche]

I think it's important to note that performance tests are being performed to find bottlenecks and resolve them, and that results may change with every iteration

[modest burrow]

70 players for a new made server is just bad though.

Hopefully they get a grip on it, so all these mc java devs don’t need to learn dev ops

[stray pasture]

World Gen, chunk management, simulation, voxel data propagation. It goes on. Its not simple.

[kindred crescent]

70 players in a specific use case. Here, from a Slikey tweet:

I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.

[rose atlas]

why does it have to be bad?

[summer otter]

I would be curious how the packets would work and stuff, and if we can even use a third party add-on to offload stuff when needed. Not that we should have to, but it allows for even more scaling when you can hack the protocol together. Although minecraft is not the best example but the closest one I can think of, I once did an experiment to offload certain serverside computations to other processes, and even gpus in the end. Not that it was a masive success as it was all hacked together and more a proof of concept yet it was interesting. I actually learned that increasing the tps beyond 20 had some interesting consequences on packet rendering. Which I could then use to render ui in a different way and abuse it to capture arbitrary key input. But okay this was all experimental and wouldn't be published in a real project

[modest burrow]

Because we want good servers that hold many players to minimize developer work

[kindred crescent]

The full tweet:

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[summer otter]

Yet it does show the advantages of knowing the protocol eventually even if it means hacking together your own launcher or extending one

[kindred crescent]

The game isn't even out man

[rose atlas]

we wont be able to modify the client or making new launchers for hytale.

[stray pasture]

Lol, 70 players flying at max speed generating at the same time is quite imptessive

[summer otter]

I'm not talking about client launchers

I'm now talking about the server jar

[rose atlas]

idk tbh, we have to see released docs.

[rose atlas]

i hope they give us built-in tools to pregen areas FAST.

[kindred crescent]

Already the case

[stray pasture]

I dont see why not, they could disable gen all together hand have static defined worlds

[kindred crescent]

Yeah, inside of the world configuration, you simply set the pregeneration region and it will ensure that this area is generated before players can join. This should definitely reduce runtime world generation overhead.

[rose atlas]

cool thanks for the info

[stray pasture]

But as for performance, 70 players good start for a very very early access game.

[kindred crescent]

I feel like we should consider the true early access to be in like may/june. Anything before that is like an alpha

(I say may/june because Simon said they would ideally push back the release 3-4 months to get something decent before release)

[near raptor]

In a sense, we are getting an early build to make some mods / plugins with before the true "early access" releases then :p

[kindred crescent]

Kind of

It's like "Here, you can play with it while we work on it"

[stray pasture]

Also we did some comparisons.

We're now at double the average paper enhanced MC server on just your average Hytale server... like damn!

[kindred crescent]

Nooooooo! Hytale server bad 😠

[stray pasture]

Not 1k! Need more!!!

[karmic bane]

We need 1M player civilization in Hytale!

[rose atlas]

I have a crazy idea to make Hytale's 1st ever Creative mode server where people can build anywhere and edit the world with the tools

[kindred crescent]

THAT would take quite the server lol

[loud raft]

Yeh nginx[.]org/en/docs/quic.html

[kindred crescent]

"It just works"

(No Todd Howard gif rip)

[near raptor]

fifteen times the detail! See that mountain? You can go there!

Twohundred times the bugs!

[kindred crescent]

The robot can even say your name!

[loud raft]

Like offloading chat and other minor stuff into their own services?🤔

[summer otter]

not chat in my case, it was more like entity rendering

[near raptor]

Not yet

[stray pasture]

Oh like distributed microservice architecture for games?

[summer otter]

and I did an experiment with client side shaders which I could manipulate using maps in minecraft in which I could create custom GUI, and more like this but it needed pre rendered stuff which I offloaded to a server with a gpu Woops

[sharp lake]

In case nobody answered, yes it can

[loud raft]

Ah you’re referring to the client, nvm then I was thinking you were talking about the server

[summer otter]

nope server

[vernal niche]

This reads like http3 support, not raw quic

[summer otter]

but I did client side stuff using the server side

[sharp lake]

It does both

[summer otter]

it was quite hacky though

[stray pasture]

I feel like I lost the context of the convo. 😄 something about packets and offloading entity computation?

[vernal niche]

Interesting. I'll have to read up on that

[summer otter]

yeah entity computations, but also some rendering like real rendering, but it's to advanced to explain in a quick chat. I do get the confusion though I should have stated it better

[stray pasture]

Server doesnt render, and I feel offloading computation as a service would likely be too slow.

[summer otter]

If you're interested I can share a bit of my experiments in dms, as I did rendering from the server but mainly to bypass some mminecraft restrictions

[stray pasture]

Yeah!

[summer otter]

as I found a way to send arbitrary data to a minecraft client which it can make sense of

[loud raft]

Sounds interesting

[stray pasture]

I got dis privacy settings so friend!! 😛

[sharp lake]

It's possibly only really capable of being done with UDP stream forwarding, but the end result is about the same

[vernal niche]

Question is if you can match on the SNI field

[sharp lake]

I just skimmed the source of Nginx and it does look like it supports raw QUIC, but I could be mistaken
I could try to configure it, though I'd need to find a QUIC application to work with first lol

[sharp lake]

For what it's worth, this is a quote from Twitter
And Slikey uses Nginx as an example

[vernal niche]

Ah. Well Slikey is a smart dude if I've ever seen one so he's probably right.

[sharp lake]

If it doesn't support QUIC streams, then it has all the ground-work and would just need someone to tack it on top
Though given how big and famous Nginx is, it'd probably take a long time for it to get merged
Even if someone did do it nicely

[vernal niche]

I really wanna throw a Golang project somewhere into this ecosystem and a quic load balancer could've been nice 😅

[sharp lake]

It would fit in perfectly
The server networks on Hytale are actually going to feel so elegant compared to the awful jank we've done in Minecraft 😭

It's impossible to convey how awfully janky it is to abuse world-loading and dimensions and use various protocol hacks just to get something so simple in the end

[lament steeple]

thats actually really nice

[sharp lake]

I know right, it's going to be brilliant LOL
You just use the transfer packet to send them back to your proxy, and route them according to the 4KB payload

Or you could send them directly, to entirely different networks

It's just a matter of whether all the servers are public boxes, or if they're hidden behind the proxy

[vernal niche]

I still have a redirecter on my list of things to try. I just need a long evening and a nice cup of cocoa to find out how much of the default server logic I can throw out until the transfer packet stops working

[lament steeple]

honestly im really hyped to explore the how the server jar works

probably what ill do on d1

[sharp lake]

I'm probably gonna chuck myself into the world actually
Though I'm immensely curious how creative mode works on the backend lol

[lament steeple]

fair

[still sleet]

I'm seeing a lot more technical talk than what that faq I saw on the hytale blog would allow for, is there some hidden faq I can't find or someone I need to follow on twitter for this info

[lament steeple]

check out the faq in the pinned messages on #discussion

[summer loom]

there is a hytalemodding xyz website where people are tracking a bunch of the stuff mentioned

[lament steeple]

following on twitter is a great way to get instantly updates and not wait for updates on hytalemodding or something like that

[vernal niche]

Oh I feel like I should to talk to those folks

[kindred crescent]

Follow Slikey on twitter.

[summer loom]

Want an invite to the discord?

[lament steeple]

btw its hytalemodding dot guide and not xyz

they changed it

[summer loom]

xyz still redirects

[lament steeple]

ah good to know

[strange tapir]

I can't even keep track of what we say, so glad someone is doing it

[strange tapir]

Quite a lot probably? I can keep moving the transfer packet even earlier. lol (as long as its safe to do so)

[summer loom]

Yeah it already has some of the random plugin examples Slikey posted in the discord the other day

[vernal niche]

Fun fact, when I was last playing around with that, zero messaged me because I was causing exceptions he hadn't seen yet

[summer loom]

@strange tapir Do you guys use something like Jira/Trello to track internal bug tickets? I can't imagine how much needs to be done haha

[strange tapir]

Me: *what's this crash report I'm seeing... oh its just @vernal niche messsing with stuff 😆

[strange tapir]

Yeah we use a combination of things to track work. It depends on different people and the type of problem as to how we track it.
Like sometimes we see a problem and just do it without any need to track it, and other times we have longer term work that goes into a backlog for the future

[fast jay]

I run playit.gg (100k monthly active users, mostly Minecraft). Would it be possible to get early access to docs about the Quic based network protocol so I can ensure support on early access launch day? Email is patrick <at> playit.gg.

[summer loom]

Its probably better to reach out to the support or creator email

Its on the hytale com about page

[fast jay]

Found it, thank you.

[west elk]

There will be a hosting guide some time before early access release

[vernal niche]

Alrighty folks

[sharp lake]

Transfer packets in Hytale are small data payloads (4kb) that allow players to move from one server to another while carrying information. They are not equivalent to something like BungeeCord or Velocity and are primarily intended for smaller servers.
This is pretty opinionated for what hytalemodding.guide seems to be 🙈

It's a stretch to say they are primarily intended for smaller servers
Maybe I'll end up joining their Discord lol

Visual Scripting: Replaces command blocks, fully sandboxed

It was actually confirmed that we'd get developer comments in the server source code?

[kindred crescent]

Yes. It will be shared-source

[sharp lake]

I figured they'd strip internal comments

We are releasing the server as shared source - you will have the source code with no obfuscation and all our comments in it. You can run very heavily modified versions of the server. If you really want to and you have the technical skills, you can make your own Hytale server software. I know some Rust programmers are already warming up the keyboard. You have to make sure you keep the protocol compatible with the latest version of the client though.

[west elk]

Yeah idk why they claim that transfer packets are intended for smaller servers. Slikey said that they are meant to replace proxies like Bungeecord specifically for Hypixel minigame network-like usecases

[sharp lake]

Yeah, like it's not replacing Velocity's inter server communication
It's replacing the fact that we need a dedicated server that has to stay in spec with the game and imitate a real server 24/7, just to move people around
We'll still need proxies if we want to do things besides transfer players to public servers, like load balancing and transferring to backend ones lol

Those kinds of proxies are extremely cheap to run though, and are very common
You could grab basically any QUIC proxy off the shelf and use it for your Hytale network

A single-board ARM computer like the Raspberry Pi can easily handle hundreds of web requests a second
We'd expect gaming to be more intensive, but not thousands of times more intensive lol
According to some DigiKey benchmark, the Pi5 hit 100k requests a second lol

Maybe not a safe assumption, because I'm not super well-informed on how request numbers translate into gaming
But I would assume that you're not going to be sending more requests than the client ticks, so for Hytale it would be 50 a second
And that's not even close to saturating it, even with more than 200 players, for a single-board computer lol

[normal dune]

Good evening, everyone. I haven't followed the chat much here, but how are the speculations and news about server development?

[sharp lake]

great so far lmfao

[fathom pelican]

woah, they confirmed linux support has been added. i didnt think that would happen before release. what absolute madlads

[sharp lake]

It's been discussed a couple times, but I didn't see it posted here
Slikey did end up confirming builtin pre-generation

Yeah, inside of the world configuration, you simply set the pregeneration region and it will ensure that this area is generated before players can join. This should definitely reduce runtime world generation overhead.

[normal dune]

Okay, but what I mean is: the architecture and everything, will we actually be able to develop once it goes into pre-registration? Just to analyze and so on. Another question: is there any other place for developers?

[sharp lake]

We already reached pre-registration, and no we don't have anything to develop with

[kindred crescent]

This is the channel for developers

[normal dune]

I mean on other servers.

[kindred crescent]

To my knowledge, this is the only official Hytale discord

[loud raft]

There’s a hytale modding server, hytalemodding[.]guide should get you there

[simple junco]

Is there already any documentation on how to start building servers? I want to start working on it.

[rich solar]

Not yet

[rose atlas]

i just realized their system requirements states this:
-# A graphics card with up-to-date drivers supporting at least OpenGL 4.1 is required. Future versions of Hytale may additionally require support for Vulkan 1.3 and DirectX 12.

[sacred tulip]

I don't have a dedicated graphics card

I actually don't even have a computer right now so I guess it doesn't matter anyways

[sharp lake]

it's optional

• OS: 64-bit Windows 10 (version 1809), Windows 11
• CPU: Intel Core i5-7500 (or equivalent), AMD Ryzen 3 1200 (or equivalent)
• RAM:
  • Singleplayer, with dedicated graphics: 8 GB
  • Singleplayer, with integrated graphics: 12 GB
  • Multiplayer-only: 8 GB
• GPU:
  • Integrated:
    • Intel UHD Graphics 620
    • AMD Radeon Vega 6
  • Dedicated:
    • NVIDIA GTX 900 Series
    • AMD Radeon 400 Series
    • Intel Arc A-Series
  • Note: A graphics card with up-to-date drivers supporting at least OpenGL 4.1 is required. Future versions of Hytale may additionally require support for Vulkan 1.3 and DirectX 12.
• Storage: SATA SSD with 20 GB of free space
• Network: 2 Mbit/s connection for multiplayer (UDP/QUIC compatible).

i emboldened the word "integrated" in both places it shows up

your graphics card can be integrated, it just has to have 4.1

[stray pasture]

Cloud the magic compute machines.

[sharp lake]

downloaded the last month of slikey and simon's twitter replies so i can search them 🤣

i now have a hytale encyclopedia with tweets, blogposts, and outdated client source

[latent spindle]

Guys can shaders be server side?

[sharp lake]

You can store shaders server-side, and send them to the client lol

[naive heath]

seems like a fun way to crash peoples computers

[sharp lake]

It won't be available at release because they haven't sandboxed it yet

[latent spindle]

Why are you laughing bruh.. thats disrespectful as shi bruh..

[naive heath]

thank god

[sharp lake]

Because servers don't render the world, so shaders cannot be server-side
I answered what I thought you meant, that's why "lol"

There isn't an API for client shaders yet, and that's what we'd need

[latent spindle]

I was just doing the ishowspeed meme

[sharp lake]

what

[latent spindle]

Oh i see you unc aight aight

[sharp lake]

how old are you LOL it's a programming channel

[jaunty shoal]

Do we think hytale would be compatible with spacetimedb?

No lol

[summer loom]

Yeah in that case wouldn't you need to write completely custom server software built for it?

[sage panther]

You just need to write Java code that interacts with spacetimedb

then we use whatever interface hypixel gives us to influence the way the server behaves

just how limited that interface is, is still unknown fully

worst case scenario, we hijack the server source fully and not use the interface they provide

[sharp lake]

It's not a database program, despite the name

You can think of SpacetimeDB as both a relational database and a server combined into one. Instead of deploying a web or game server that sits in between your clients and your database, clients connect directly to the database and execute your logic inside the database itself. No more Docker, Kubernetes, VMs, microservices or extensive ops infrastructure.

SpacetimeDB has enabled us to build our massively multiplayer game, BitCraft, with a small team. Its entire backend, including all game logic, real-time player positions, and all persistent state, is implemented as a SpacetimeDB module.

[summer loom]

Ok in that case it would be really hard becaue you would need to get SpacetimeDB to be simulating a Hytale world right?

[stray pasture]

Not if it can just drop in. As long as it continues the life cycle you can ad hooks wherever for data. So not really anything for a rewrite.

[summer loom]

Based on what Shelbie posted, it seems that the hooking into the db defeats the purpose. The database itself is the memory of the server, being updated in realtime, not a copy like an external db usually is.

[sharp lake]

Instead of deploying a web or game server that sits in between your clients and your database, your clients connect directly to the database and execute your application logic inside the database itself. You can write all of your permission and authorization logic right inside your module just as you would in a normal server.

In summary there are only 4 steps to getting started with SpacetimeDB.

• Install the spacetime CLI tool.
• Start a SpacetimeDB standalone node with spacetime start.
• Write and upload a module in one of our supported module languages.
• Connect to the database with one of our client libraries.

So basically, no it won't be feasible
The Hytale client is not going to be modded, and that seems to be a pretty fundamental aspect of implementing SpicetimeDB

If we assume I'm misunderstanding, and the client-side is not an important part
Then what you need to do is basically port the server entirely to their module system, which would require a rewrite into C# or Rust

And would require a significantly different architecture/design
Much like converting Hytale into a P2P architecture

I think there's technically a way you could do both of those things by making an advanced plugin
So basically all your players would join a "singleplayer" world, which would start a custom integrated server
And that custom server would use the plugin to communicate and sync with the other clients' integrated servers

It's possible that the integrated singleplayer server is going to be more tightly tied to vanilla though
Like, the server itself is open source and we can easily swap out the networking components entirely, even without the plugin system
But for the integrated one, I assume we'd have to stick to the plugin system exclusively

[sharp lake]

If that's not a problem, and plugins can substitute entire components, then you could technically circumvent the problem and force it to work

If the goal is to get rid of dedicated server costs, I think a more traditional and inefficient forced-P2P plugin sync thing would be easier 💀

[balmy vessel]

Server only plug-ins seem like they would suck a lot or be really good

[sharp lake]

I think they're going to be excellent
We've already had incredible feats with server-only Minecraft plugins
And Minecraft is genuinely awful for that, in a thousand different ways

[kindred crescent]

Server only plugins means players don't have to download them manually unless they want to use them for single-player

[sharp lake]

Cymaera has some very interesting work with server-side only, and no resourcepacks
youtube*.*com/watch?v=uZmEYYs0ZKs&t=119s
In case any of you have never seen it before

And of course there is the Wynncraft team who have done some pretty amazing things with resourcepacks and server-side plugins

[patent quail]

The wynncraft team really are amazing

[sharp lake]

Yeah and we can only imagine how things would've gone differently if they didn't have to wait for Mojang to put literally any work into user content lmao

[silver bronze]

Also basically the entirity of Hypixel was made using server-side plugins

[sharp lake]

Wynncraft has been around for so long that it actually didn't even start with server resourcepacks
And even once those were added, you could only texture existing things
And it took Mojang years to even address that part

[silver cloak]

yes!

[sharp lake]

Items weren't data driven and you couldn't just arbitrarily apply textures based on NBT either

Minecraft has been literal cancer to work with

[silver cloak]

They only added it in like 2021 / 2022 I think

[sharp lake]

The loss of brain cells is prominent enough to get it classified as a carcinogen

[silver cloak]

But still you can't make native items / blocks. You still disguise blocks

Right now most people use noteblocks for blocks and papers for items

[sharp lake]

The fact that it wasn't added in 2015 around when they sniped Searge is fckin insane

[silver cloak]

they added npcs few snapshots ago

[sharp lake]

lmao the mannequins? genuinely so late is astounding

[silver cloak]

Yeah when hytale was announced in 2019 I was certain it would wipe minecraft because these guys had given us NOTHING

Still to this day, server software and modding is third party. There's no official help

[sharp lake]

the most recent snapshot added a /swing command
can you guess what it does? it plays an animation for the target, the swing animation
and that is it, you cannot play any other animation

[silver cloak]

😭

[sharp lake]

genuinely wtf are they even doing at this point if that's their next move

[silver cloak]

idk kill the game because they thought they will have no competition

[sharp lake]

The bar is that god damn low
That's why I think Hytale is going to be fine, even in early access

[silver cloak]

how is it possible that they have microsoft funding / millions in cash and they cna't hire 5 people to work on creator tools?

[tidal mauve]

wasnt that obvious ages ago when microaoft bought them

[silver cloak]

Yeah but that was 2014

[tidal mauve]

yep

you can still somewhat see when the direction of minecraft changed

[sharp lake]

They just don't even care, they're such jerks
It's more important to profit off child gambling and make it easy to accidentally burn money on the marketplace

[silver cloak]

Same, people have no idea what it's like working with official API instead of needing 300iq to decompile games and figure it out yourself

[tidal mauve]

id say signs were there all the way back in 2017

[sharp lake]

It's not even just decompilation
It's forcing things to work in ways they're not supposed to

[sharp lake]

They were already stalling the mod API for years by 2017 lol

Minecraft Windows 10 edition might've even been 2016

[silver cloak]

Why? you don't like retexturing symbols? then spawning a WITHER HEALTH BAR and adding that symbol there so you have a custom ui?

[tidal mauve]

i wonder how much resources they are spending maintaining that abysmal c++ port

[sharp lake]

lmfao they're churning a profit with that sht rendition of the game

[tidal mauve]

right its stuffed full of monetization aint it

[sharp lake]

yes, you should try it sometime

[tidal mauve]

nah, ill pass

[sharp lake]

maybe witness their new official server too
it's pay to win by the way

[silver cloak]

When I grow up I would like to be a minecraft marketplace content creator ❤️

[sharp lake]

they artificially slow your progress with a thousand timers are charge you to skip them, hour by hour

[silver cloak]

That dragon server is so shi I want to cry

[balmy vessel]

Just wait until you get the ambiguous command: “move”

[tidal mauve]

most of modding is decompiling the game and injecting custom logic into it tho

[silver cloak]

I laughed irl reading this

[tidal mauve]

almost any unity modding

[sharp lake]

imagine if they had the balls to add a velocity command, like idk
10 years ago

why do we have to do fckin scoreboard math to multiply motion values

[silver cloak]

We got forward backward detection systems few snapshots ago too

The game doesn't know jumping from flying or falling, it's all velocity values

It's so easy to cheat too, they have no protection at all

[sharp lake]

literally anyone could do a better job with minecraft considering the resources available
even a 3 year old baby would be able to hire help and at the very least appeal to other human beings who want to play the game

I'm actually convinced a toddler would do a better job, because they wouldn't be so god damn greedy

[silver cloak]

facts

[balmy vessel]

Good modding would have an api to work with to provide more content; you should not have to make your own api/hooks to add basic features such as items

[silver cloak]

Also that 1.9 pvp is so cancerous man

[sharp lake]

I would literally purchase Minecraft again if their CEO and CFO were replaced with 5-6 year old kids

[silver cloak]

I play games for dopamine not sit around 3 seconds for the sword to load back up

[silver cloak]

I agree with this. Mod = modification of the original material

[sharp lake]

There is a ton of irony with saying this while in an RPG server

[silver cloak]

If you as a company make MONEY from creators then at least have some dignity and build some tools

[silver cloak]

Hytale combat is not near close to that...

sorry fella I am using my shield you can't hit me now!

[patent quail]

I miss those days man, the og wynncraft was really something

[cold kite]

I will be make hypixel skyblock plugin on Hytale 💀 and I will sell it in $5m USD

[balmy vessel]

):

[silver bronze]

Will we have an official Dockerfile for the Hytale server when it releases? If not I suppose someone in the community will have made this in no time, but that'd be neccesary for using stuff like Pterodactyl

[tropic ginkgo]

I’ve been looking a bit into the approximate hardware requirements for dedicated Hytale servers. How many maximum players do you think most servers will have (at least at the beginning)? My guess is around 25–30.

[lament steeple]

there was a talk about this recently lemme find it

i think it really depends on the purpose of the server

[tropic ginkgo]

Now we need to see what hardware is needed to reach those 56 players. I really don't like that the server is Java, but it is what it is :/

[silver bronze]

I mean what are the other options? What would you have suggested other than Java 😅

[lament steeple]

servers with exploration in mind will have a lower limit of players while servers with maps/premade worlds will probably take less resources therefore a higher playerlimit

[tropic ginkgo]

almost anything, C#, Golang, C++, Rust

[silver bronze]

Golang, C++ and Rust would all have made modding significantly more difficult. And I don't really see a reason why having a C# server would be a huge improvement

[tropic ginkgo]

native aot

[west elk]

AOT for software that has community moddability as a core pillar?

[tropic ginkgo]

Just because the core is AOT doesn't mean the plugins have to be too. Maybe someone needs a programming course?

[silver bronze]

Yeah don't get me wrong, I heavily prefer AOT but that's not a great idea for something that is supposed to be incredibly flexible where you can modify every single part

[west elk]

moddability doesn't just mean "having an api". It means we have the ability to easily decompile, edit, and recompile

[silver bronze]

Yeah good luck using something like Reflections with AOT compilation

[west elk]

Also, targeting the JVM rather than end-user systems is huge for development velocity. A lot of things regarding platform compatibility, memory management, tooling, etc that don't have to be invented from scratch

[scarlet spoke]

Multiplayer servers usually use C++ due the performance boost. You can easily adapt sdk to it in any other programming language.

.NET 10 NativeAOT is getting very close to the cpp performance if you consider that C# still has all functionality of memory management.

[paper forge]

You would get lower peak performance using 100% AOT in this environment due to servers needing to stay online for long periods. Once you warm JIT you're going to out-perform AOT long-term, especially well-optimized JIT. You can even mitigate that start times JIT produces by caching your startup processes

[karmic bane]

I wouldn't think so, I'd have a very specific architecture in mind when building and deploying a Java project and ig there are so many options to do it

[scarlet spoke]

In the long term we probably see community-made cpp servers when it gets open sourced

[paper forge]

I think so too, unless they hit us with the hybird approach and compute is done in C#/C++ and we interact with in thru Java. Tho the memory objects would need to be addressed in a way both langs can read them, which I feel it trivial for engineers at hytale level

[karmic bane]

Idk Java memory is weird. Unless with JNI, Java low level hybrid approaches I assume would be quite messy

[paper forge]

Yeah you'd have to bypass JNI and make java hydrate your memory in a custom structure C++ can read, so we can use java GC and such. We can auto grab the memory java made from C++ to use in Java OR C++ from there. Then there's the issue of concurrency when doing things like this tho

[karmic bane]

I would be surprised if someone even had the mental motivation to go through that pain xD

[scarlet spoke]

"Ok Gemini, convert those files to cpp"

[karmic bane]

JNI accelerated libraries was a topic some time ago but as far as I remember, no or atleast not many such libraries are used because of equal pain

[silver bronze]

JNI isn't too difficult to use, I'm just not sure how useful it will actually be. Really depends on what is the bottleneck for some things, if there's one incredibly heavy thing then yes it could be useful. But it won't be too much of an optimisation compared to well written Java code

[karmic bane]

Imagine when Hytale eventually releases on Steam, first thing you read is "This game was made using AI"

[scarlet spoke]

Nah, game files won't be ai made.
Slikey already told me that he uses AI a lot to write debug-, benchmark- and utility tools which are kinda like throw-away software

[karmic bane]

Yee idk what Steam's rules on the AI classification are really but maybe that counts idk

[scarlet spoke]

Then every game is made with AI

[paper forge]

lmfao, i was thinking more in the lines of this: We can use java to make a raw memory object, floats, longs, blah blah. Then we can get this same data using structures and update that same memory objects in both langs, we can tag this memory per domain and time stamp it. That way concurrency is taken care of for newly made memory and we have custom tags to access it. Then we can tag this memory further by hot, warm, cold, etc states and mak a universal registry of the memory both lanuages can use.

[karmic bane]

I mean isn't that the current controversy? So many games appearing with the AI classification lmao

[scarlet spoke]

Yeah, so the core stays cpp but you add a hook to the core elements with small overhead. Should also work with any other programming language, as long the data types are basic

[paper forge]

Yes, we must use a concurrent memory registry all langs can access tho for concurrency. Not sure if java lets you make raw concurrent memory

[scarlet spoke]

Not using AI, even if this is only for debugging tools, is just waste of time. Ngl. Doesn't mean that the game files are made with it.

You can't fool the players at the end, they feel if something is entirely made by machines

[karmic bane]

Yeah but planning is part of making a game. It doesn't sound unsensical to me to say if one uses AI to plan out, design, benchmark, etc. a game then that game is made with AI even if not the code. I wouldn't do it or like it but I could see Steam doing that, for legal reasons alone maybe

[scarlet spoke]

Gamedesign needs to be 100% human, a story written by AI just feels so off.

[karmic bane]

True, atleast that should be the case

[paper forge]

I believe AI is a tool, when cars came out people weren't like "this is too good, ima keep walking". I think AI-Assisted is the word you're looking for. Made with AI implies the entire thing was made by AI, like a AI generated image

[silver cloak]

Chunk pregeneration confirmed 😭

[karmic bane]

Yeah ig thats just my wording, I believe Steam says AI-assisted too, I am not sure tho

[scarlet spoke]

Bruh, that entire label is just bcs for supporting human made games and blame for those, who did use AI.
We're talking about jobs, nothing else.

But that's the whole point of AI, to make our life easier

[silver cloak]

AI is alright if you run a basic model from your pc. But these guys have like 40% of the total electric emissions in a year

I think the costs are way too big for the profits

[paper forge]

I do believe a lot of games or work labeled assisted is just pure or 95% AI, that label can be bs.

[scarlet spoke]

That's just the tip of it. Remember that AI became common just 2022. Less than 4 years. In this time AI evolved so freaking fast. In the upcoming 10 years, we probably spent 50 - 70% for energy just for AI

[karmic bane]

Yea but its a technical evolution as basically anything. It's comparable to electric cars, you want to use them to be more environmentally responsible eventually, even if not now. And using them now already is important to the progression. Same with AI I guess. Technology like photonic processors and various other efforts to reduce power output are on their way

[paper forge]

I thought this until I watched a video on farming and how much corn we piss away, how much water it takes and what we use it for. I just think its a new guzzling medium everyone is buzzing about because of the media attetion of AI

[scarlet spoke]

Infrastructure is still the main problem . We got the solutions, but we humans are to slow for the modern world.
We reached a milestone where technology evolution bypassed the capabilities of humans

[silver cloak]

It doesn't even generate profit

the US gov holds em together

[paper forge]

I don't even think its this, I think its profit > stability. There's plenty of people who LOVE to tell how how bad something is for the environment, but they dont control the laws sadly

[scarlet spoke]

Telling doesn't mean you get the work done

[paper forge]

If only lmao

[paper forge]

That's another issue, the big companies are just passing around money, gov just building data centers near neighborhoods with 0 regulation. The upper half US eco would be in shambles without AI

[tidal mauve]

green laundering

[paper forge]

Government backed green laundering*

[tidal mauve]

ye theyre all in on this, these past few decades so many governments are pushing deep into corruption

remember times when governments were working for the betterment of the people? i wasnt alive back then yet

[karmic bane]

Just mind to keep politics out of here btw lmao

[tidal mauve]

righr

idk i just had it in me and let it out

[paper forge]

nah i started it a bit too my bad lol

[silver cloak]

We were fine without AI bro

[paper forge]

I use it everyday as a tool, but I feel you tho. For me, it helped a lot with my return to development and impostor syndrome from the systems I have made. Im a better developer because of it

[silver cloak]

There's no denying that AI is useful but you have to count the fact that it's bad for everyone

[karmic bane]

For simplification reasons I always tend to say that AI is not a tool for beginners but for people who know what they're doing lmao

[paper forge]

This may be harsh but I think people need to get WAY smarter now and do things AI can't do. In development that's your system level thinkers, team leads, etc. This isn't the first time automation has caused something like this but it is the first time its been so fast, and so vast. It does need to slow down, but the money is too good and we're small pawns man

[paper forge]

EXACATLY THIS LOL, I never figured out why people say AI is bad until I really read the responses because I just skip the bad stuff lol

[silver cloak]

Me when I am a silly little rage baiter

I guess its nice buying gpus 500% more

[paper forge]

I accentuated it's as bad as people say it is AT TIMES, but there are reasons for it that I'm aware of. Prompts, context, your chat flow, predefined agent prompts, tools, etc, they all matter in the outcome of your prompt. This is why no one prompt will give the same response even on the same model

[silver cloak]

Well it's okay. It will be banned eventually

[paper forge]

Even if it does this won't stop people from running local models. And a 100% ban is never going to happen, regulation maybe, ban? No. America itself has actual money invested into these companies

[karmic bane]

Generative AI may get regulated here and there but that won't affect the market reasonably I'd say

[silver cloak]

Local models is fine, but creating miles of infrastucture and ruining nature is not cool

[west elk]

Inference isn't what's expensive. The training is

[paper forge]

Yes, this depeneds how you to do this. The new datacenters being built in the US are no-where-near up to par with a real data center environment standards. There are data centers in other countries with net 0 emissions for entire operating years, water is not poisoned, temperature regulated before returning, and 100% renewable energy is used. When done right, a datacenter should only cost in environment tax in what it cost to get built

[scarlet spoke]

It's normal that we face disbelievers on the way down the technology road.
When the first cars were driving on the road, people with carriages said that they don't have power to pull loads of goods.
When electricity was commonly used in public, the inventors of the pneumatic clocks in Paris said that the system will fail to many times.

We are at the beginning of AI, not at the end or even near middle of it

[paper forge]

Yes, this is why I can use AI to HELP me build complex systems, not be the conductor. It's too good not to use for development and you're going to be behind if you don't use it.

[silver cloak]

I am not arguing about the AI philosophy. But we have been victims of the industrial revolution's polution. We know better than this

[paper forge]

Its just not our call, so you may as well try to profit or learn from it then deny the changes that WILL be made.

[silver cloak]

Thankfully I am not American so I don't have to worry about random billionaires deciding to ruin my continent

[paper forge]

Where do you live?

[scarlet spoke]

Every technology comes with it downsides.
The problem is, that if 99% of all countries will follow the no-pollution way, there is still one country who will do it and this one will out-smart everyone else in technology development

[silver cloak]

That's def not America 😭

[paper forge]

Issue is there no money in emssion control, just costs, needs to come from the top down with HEFTY fines

[scarlet spoke]

So the plan is, to make faster development which leads more to energy efficiency until we meet the break-even point where we don't need more energy for ourself.
This point is WAY far in the future. Maybe in 1000 years we got reliable fusion energy which MAY fulfill our demands
Our globally energy production already could fulfill our current needs, which will lead to more energy consumption.
Currently we invest trillions into infrastructure just for consuming more energy 😄

[loud raft]

DnSpy enjoyer

[loud raft]

I don’t see a way where you are able to do transpile patches with NativeAOT

[tidal mauve]

ilSpy supremacy

[loud raft]

😄

[fleet isle]

ilSpy mentioned!!!!!

Slikey shared a screenshot of the config for pregen on Twitter and in it, you can clearly see that X and Y is used for horizontal plane and therefore Z has to be vertical... welp, that's going to confuse my brain for a little while.

Source: xcancel(.)com/slikey/status/2001032986695811152#m

[tidal mauve]

wasnt that confirmed on some map screenshot a while ago?

[fleet isle]

I must have missed that screenshot cause this was the first time I learnt that information

[woeful finch]

Minecraft is kind of the outlier when it comes to using y for its vertical axis

[silver cloak]

LETS GOOOO!!!

[steep nova]

Hi