server-plugins-read-only

[kindred crescent]

I'll try to do the chest example anyway just to get the idea across

[stray pasture]

Go for it! May help relate!

[sharp lake]

I'd expect something more like tickVelocity as opposed to Update, right?

[karmic bane]

Big enough to be worth an entirely different architecture. Something like flecs, if you don't spend too much time on other things like visualizing the entities in 3D, you can easily go to 1 to 100 million entities. In a more integrated thing like Hytale not as many but still way more

[sharp lake]

Lmfao and then we have fckin inheritance

[stray pasture]

Oh yes! Single thread 10s of thousands, multiple MANY HUNDEREDS if not close to a million or more

[fleet isle]

So it is something like I said with class that has multiple interfaces. It just instead of registering the class into a single registry, I register it into those individual component registeries based on what interfaces the class has, right?

[stray pasture]

Essentially yeah! Link them with a general "container"

[sharp lake]

Maybe a stupid question, but inheritance is just an abstraction
Why are we not doing compiler optimizations to group these things together naturally?

[stray pasture]

Inheritance is a totally different architecture here

[fleet isle]

Oh okay... I've done that a few times, not all the times, but a few times already... I just didn't know that's what it was called

[karmic bane]

Inheritance comes 💫 inherently 💫 with depencency on one another. The polymorphism breaks the theoretical linkage to ECS architecture. You could still kind of translate to one from another but good luck writing a compiler for that lmao it would require like a good semantical overview of your target goal. I guess an LLM would be more befitted to that than any deterministic algorithm

[kindred crescent]

nevermind the code example, I can't be bothered to come up with good enough code lol

[sharp lake]

I've always just called them components or modules 🙈

[near raptor]

Inheritance is limited to whatever the parent allows for, sort of.

[stray pasture]

I am making Claude do it. One sec. I will toss into a thread

[near raptor]

For example in Minecraft, I cannot add arbitrary NBT / metadata to all blocks in the world that would persist, only to blocks that hold state.

[stray pasture]

I lied I wont.

[kindred crescent]

lmfao

[sharp lake]

relatable

You gave a really good explanation earlier though

[kindred crescent]

Well basically, in OOP you would have to loop through every entity and then test if they are a container and then make them do something.
In ECS, you can just say "Take all the containers and do X, Y, Z"

[stray pasture]

LONG MESSAGE

Minecraft Container Example - Server Authoritative:

struct Position { public int X, Y, Z; }
struct Inventory { public List<ItemStack> Items; public int Size; }
struct Container { public string Title; }
struct Furnace { public float BurnTime; public float CookTime; }
struct Hopper { public float TransferCooldown; }

// SERVER ONLY - Systems
class FurnaceSystem
{
    public void Tick(World world, float dt)
    {
        foreach (var id in world.Query<Inventory, Furnace>())
        {
            var inv = world.Get<Inventory>(id);
            var furnace = world.Get<Furnace>(id);
            
            // Smelt logic here
            furnace.CookTime += dt;
            if (furnace.CookTime >= 10f)
            {
                // Transform input -> output
                furnace.CookTime = 0;
            }
            
            world.Set(id, furnace);
            world.Set(id, inv); // Sync to clients
        }
    }
}

class HopperSystem
{
    public void Tick(World world, float dt)
    {
        foreach (var id in world.Query<Inventory, Hopper, Position>())
        {
            var hopper = world.Get<Hopper>(id);
            hopper.TransferCooldown -= dt;
            
            if (hopper.TransferCooldown <= 0)
            {
                // Find container above/below and transfer items
                hopper.TransferCooldown = 0.4f;
            }
            
            world.Set(id, hopper);
        }
    }
}```

CLIENT - Doesn't need to understand the logic:
```// Client only renders what it receives
class ContainerRenderSystem
{
    public void Render(World world)
    {
        foreach (var id in world.Query<Container, Inventory, Position>())
        {
            var container = world.Get<Container>(id);
            var inventory = world.Get<Inventory>(id);
            var pos = world.Get<Position>(id);
            
            // Draw based on data, doesn't care about Furnace/Hopper logic
            RenderContainerAt(pos, container.Title, inventory.Items);
        }
    }
}```

Now here's the magic - MODDER ADDS NEW CONTAINER:

// Modder creates: Sorting Chest (server-side mod)
struct SortingChest { public SortMode Mode; }

class SortingChestSystem
{
public void Tick(World world, float dt)
{
foreach (var id in world.Query<Inventory, SortingChest>())
{
var inv = world.Get<Inventory>(id);
var sorter = world.Get<SortingChest>(id);

        // Custom sorting logic
        inv.Items = inv.Items.OrderBy(i => i.Type).ToList();
        
        world.Set(id, inv); // Syncs to client automatically
    }
}

}

// To create one:
var entity = world.CreateEntity();
world.Add(entity, new Position { X = 10, Y = 64, Z = 20 });
world.Add(entity, new Inventory { Size = 27 });
world.Add(entity, new Container { Title = "Sorting Chest" });
world.Add(entity, new SortingChest { Mode = SortMode.Alphabetical });```

Compare to OOP:

class Chest : Container { }
class Furnace : Container { }
class Hopper : Container { }

// Modder wants auto-smelting hopper?
// Multiple inheritance? Decorator pattern? Huge refactor?
class AutoSmeltingHopper : Hopper, Furnace // ❌ Can't do this```

[karmic bane]

I would recommend reading into the Bevy game engine. It's written in Rust but uses a very good fundamental ECS structure and the learning guide explains ECS pretty well

[stray pasture]

Okay that will be my last code snippet, I hate taking all of the chat. 😛 (Code snippet timeout)

This summarizes the ECS idea and how composable systems can alot almost infinite amount of freedom (While allowing Server Authority)

[kindred crescent]

Curious to see how Hypixel will explain their ECS

[sharp lake]

Have they actually confirmed anything like ECS and components for entity processing? It would make sense given the way they use nodes and such in other places

[kindred crescent]

Yes, the server has its own custom ECS

[karmic bane]

Yeah but a custom ECS not focusing on performance (because actually making an ECS noticeably benefit from cache locality and allat is quite troublesome and very low-level) but on architectural benefits

[sharp lake]

That makes sense

Oh ECS literally stands for "entity component system"
I guess that's why I've always called it components LMFAO

[kindred crescent]

Can't wait to do this and blow everything up:

Entity e = world.queryFirst<KweebecTag>();
e.addComponent(new VolatileComponent(10000000000));

[karmic bane]

It really should be called "Entities, Components, Systems" lmao

[stray pasture]

I agree.

[fleet isle]

So if I was to write a mockup of a lobby world class and a game world class, it would be something like this to allow ECS:

public class LobbyWorld : IWorld,
                          IWorldWithCosmetics,
                          IWorldWithGameSelection {
}

public class GameWorld : IWorld,
                         IWorldWithEntityDamage,
                         IWorldWithFallDamage,
                         IWorldWithVoidDamage {
}

[kindred crescent]

No, this uses inheritance. ECS is about composition

The world itself can be an entity and you would give it the VoidDamageComponent and stuff like that

[fleet isle]

But can I not just register both worlds into all different registeries based on what interfaces they have?

[sharp lake]

Idk it looks kind of like ECS to me 💀 💀

[kindred crescent]

I'm not sure of what you mean

[sharp lake]

Idk Java syntax but I see the components there and how they're shared between classes

[kindred crescent]

Those are interfaces and it looks like C# syntax.

[midnight horizon]

I cant wait to pretend to know java on release

[kindred crescent]

To be clear, in ECS, the "World" is not the game world but an ECS-related name. It's basically the entity container.

[stray pasture]

public class LobbyWorld
  e.addComponent("World");
  e.addComponent("GameSelection");

  e.setProperty("World", cosmentics.Enabled = true);

  var worldEntity = new LobbyWorld

This would be closer

[sharp lake]

I've only ever read decompiled C# and it sucked
And the Java I've worked with was fine, but it's been a long time
If that snippet above is more like C#, I guess it makes sense why I didn't understand it 😂

[fleet isle]

When I go to register the LobbyWorld class, I would look at all the interfaces it has and add it into cosmetics registry, gameSelection registry. And for the GameWorld class, that one would be added to entityDamage registry, fallDamage registry, voidDamage registry.

Then in my main loop function, I would just go through all those registries and loop whatever is in them.

[midnight horizon]

Im not even a developer really. I write automation scripts in python, PS, YAML, JSON. But it cant be that hard... right?

[stray pasture]

Your just missing like 95% of the concepts. 😄

[sharp lake]

Scripts are definitely a couple steps removed, and they're pretty significant steps
It's moving between real languages that is mostly fine

[kindred crescent]

So now you looped the same object 2-3 times instead of once for whatever you need :/

[fleet isle]

Well isn't that the point of ECS? From what I understand OOP is the one that loops through one giant list and tries to figure out what needs to be process using if statements and switch statements

[kindred crescent]

No, in a ECS, you would have "systems" that would loop through what they need only with complex queries if necessary

[karmic bane]

struct Entity(u64); // Definition of an entity, only holds a single integer as an id

struct Position { // Component
    x: f32,
    y: f32,
};

struct Velocity { // Component
    x: f32,
    y: f32,
};

fn update_positions(query: Query<(&Position, &Velocity)>) { // System
  for (pos, vel) in &query {
    pos += vel;
  }
}

This is effectively an ECS in practice (written in Rust here cuz idk its readable)
The system finds all entities that match a certain query based on the given components. In the given system, no entity would be included that has just one of those components or none. Only entities with both of those components are found and operated on. Such a query system is quite powerful and also a reason for benefits in the performance

[stray pasture]

That update positions is the system, that is the only thing that is looped through - This is response for above

[karmic bane]

This system applies velocity on the position (not well cuz I couldn't be bothered to respect time or anything physical)

[stray pasture]

And more specifically ALL systems are looped through at the same time - ANYTHING with "update_position" is called in a loop

[fleet isle]

But systems can loop through the same entity multiple times, if needed, right?

[stray pasture]

Every update.

[karmic bane]

You could do multiple for loops but the system itself usually runs once per update cycle

I guess some ECS's have a more rigid system where u could actually configure how a system actually runs but this is the base idea

[fleet isle]

each system runs once per tick, right, but an entity could be registered in multiple of those systems that run per that one tick, right?

[karmic bane]

Yes. But it's important to note that systems operate on components, changing the data. I wouldn't recommend to think in terms of entities, just think about components and systems

[stray pasture]

One sec, I am insulting claude for an example. 😄

struct Position { public float X, Y; }
struct Velocity { public float X, Y; }
struct Health { public int Value; }
struct Attack { public int Damage; }

// Systems
class InputSystem
{
    public void Tick(World world, float dt)
    {
        var player = world.Player;
        var vel = world.Get<Velocity>(player);
        
        if (Keyboard.IsPressed(Key.W)) vel.Y = 5;
        else if (Keyboard.IsPressed(Key.S)) vel.Y = -5;
        else vel.Y = 0;
        
        if (Keyboard.IsPressed(Key.A)) vel.X = -5;
        else if (Keyboard.IsPressed(Key.D)) vel.X = 5;
        else vel.X = 0;
        
        if (Keyboard.IsPressed(Key.Space))
            world.Add(player, new Attack { Damage = 10 });
        
        world.Set(player, vel);
    }
}

class MovementSystem
{
    public void Tick(World world, float dt)
    {
        foreach (var id in world.Query<Position, Velocity>())
        {
            var pos = world.Get<Position>(id);
            var vel = world.Get<Velocity>(id);
            
            pos.X += vel.X * dt;
            pos.Y += vel.Y * dt;
            
            world.Set(id, pos);
        }
    }
}

class AttackSystem
{
    public void Tick(World world, float dt)
    {
        foreach (var id in world.Query<Attack, Position>())
        {
            var attack = world.Get<Attack>(id);
            var pos = world.Get<Position>(id);
            
            // Find enemies near player
            foreach (var enemy in world.Query<Health>())
            {
                var enemyPos = world.Get<Position>(enemy);
                if (Distance(pos, enemyPos) < 2f)
                {
                    var health = world.Get<Health>(enemy);
                    health.Value -= attack.Damage;
                    world.Set(enemy, health);
                }
            }
            
            world.Remove<Attack>(id); // Attack done
        }
    }
}

// Game Loop
while (true)
{
    float dt = 0.016f; // 60fps
    
    inputSystem.Tick(world, dt);    // Read keys
    movementSystem.Tick(world, dt); // Move everything
    attackSystem.Tick(world, dt);   // Process attacks
}```

Each system defined, ANYTHING that owns it is triggered via a single loop (There are other complicated scenarios but I don't want to dive into that.)

Own is bad wording!!! Sorry! Put me in timout

[kindred crescent]

Entities are not registered in systems but in the "world" of the ECS. The systems will use queries on the world to find the entities they need.

[fleet isle]

So you still have one giant list?

[kindred crescent]

ECS use a lot of magic in the background to make queries and all that jazz very efficient

[karmic bane]

Your question basically is, if a single entity can end up in different queries in different systems, and yes, but those queries usually define on which components they want to operate on

[kindred crescent]

Yeah basically, but as I said, it's built in a way to be very efficient

[karmic bane]

Which is why they are so complex to code yourself 😩 I hate it but I love it too

[sharp lake]

So there's not a bunch of lists?

[kindred crescent]

Depends on how it's implemented

[sharp lake]

Oh

[stray pasture]

Its all purly sequential in directly in order. - VERY Fast as finding things because it mvoes incrementally

ECS: positions[0] is right next to positions[1]. CPU loads big chunks, processes fast.
OOP: enemy[0] is far from enemy[1] in RAM. CPU keeps fetching from slow RAM.

Speed is memory mapping and caching

[kindred crescent]

Let's say for example you have a component "OnFireComponent", you can add this component to any entity you want and the queries will know whether to take it or not.

[sharp lake]

I was thinking a list for every component, which just has a bunch of references in it

[fleet isle]

this was my thinking too

[karmic bane]

In very simplistic terms, ECS wants to have a big list of everything, going like: Entity, Entity, ... next to each other (remember, entities are effectively just integers to identify) and then Component, Component, ... next to each other and then System, System, ... executed and stores next to each other

[stray pasture]

I loved reading that

[karmic bane]

Ofc for performance reasons you'd probably not implement this using an array in memory but rather a more sophisticated data structure which still respects cache locality

[stray pasture]

POINTERS!!! 🙃

[karmic bane]

oh no

[stray pasture]

You wouldn't wanna copy that to modify it would ya. 😄

[karmic bane]

I am so thankful for C++ move semantics but it's such a hustle to always write std::move or a move constructor :(

[midnight horizon]

I used to be really cool in the Gmod modding community. So I did a lot of Lua but as far as any softwaretype development 0

[stray pasture]

That is okay! - Absorb this conversation! 😄 It is a really good one!

[kindred crescent]

Very dumbed down c# code:

public class HealthComponent { /* stuff here */ }
public class OnFireComponent { /* stuff here */ }

public class TakeFireDamageSystem {
  public void Update(/*stuff here*/) {
    var entities = ECS.query<HealthComponent, OnFireComponent>();
    foreach(var entity in entities) {
      // Apply fire damage logic here
    }
  }
}

// ...

var entity = ECS.AddEntity();
entity.AddComponent<HealthComponent>();
// At this point, the TakeFireDamageSystem will not see this entity because it doesn't have the OnFireComponent.
entity.AddComponent<OnFireComponent>():
// Now, TakeFireDamageSystem will see the entity and apply the logic accordingly.

Hope that helped

[karmic bane]

yeee

[stray pasture]

Damn if only Claude could understand the word "simple"

[kindred crescent]

Yup

[stray pasture]

But this is a great model in C# - Looks exactly the same in every other language too! 😂

[kindred crescent]

We'd start losing our jobs if they were too good

[fleet isle]

*scratching head noises*

[midnight horizon]

Take code from claude and put it in gemini and ask it to explain it simply

[stray pasture]

Thats why I use Claude, makes me feel powerful

[stray pasture]

It will explain why Rome fell for a C# snippet.

[karmic bane]

There's always someone who has to maintain AI!

[stray pasture]

This is actually a really well written example. :/ I am going to sit here all annoyed...

[karmic bane]

You'll learn when doing Hytale, it just requires thinking a bit around the corner. You will get into it!

[kindred crescent]

+-------------+----------+----------+----------+
|      -      | Entity 1 | Entity 2 | Entity 3 |
+-------------+----------+----------+----------+
| Component 1 | x        | x        |          |
| Component 2 | x        |          | x        |
| Component 3 |          | x        | x        |
+-------------+----------+----------+----------+

[fleet isle]

I feel like there is an easier way to do it but I just can't find it

[kindred crescent]

Thank you

[fleet isle]

I've seen that image a lot and it makes no sense in my head

[karmic bane]

why not

[kindred crescent]

What is your programming experience? Not trying to be mean, I just want to know on what base I should explain

[midnight horizon]

Out of curiosity does anyone actually know how the coding in hytale will work? will they have a wiki on launch for all of there prebuild vars, functions, and modules?

[stray pasture]

Does entity have component? Yes? No?

[stray pasture]

No, we are all just talking about conspericies at this point

[fleet isle]

Involves a lot of inheritance I guess...

[stray pasture]

OOP!!! I call it POO - I really hate OOP. 😛 Fixes many issues has other issues made for big teams

[kindred crescent]

Ok so OOP. Do you understand composition vs inheritance?

[karmic bane]

API Documentation will be rather sparse at launch. We already have a handful of screens of actual code and people are putting effort into community documentation (which currently is mostly guesses and speculation + scraping off what little information we got)

[midnight horizon]

This makes sense in my devops brain

Its kinda like a logical version of somthing like this correct

[fleet isle]

I'm self taught... these words like ECS, OOP and other words are completely foreign to me. When I find something is not working as ideally, I try different approach. When I find something is too slow, I try something else. I don't really look online for help, I just do stuff, I don't take classes or whatever, I just go head in first and figure what I can do with it.

[kindred crescent]

To anyone that doesn't understand ECS, don't worry, it's not a simple system at first glance 🙂

[midnight horizon]

Nvm I cant post pictures

[stray pasture]

I was going to say, even experienced professionals take a while to understand it, it really is a HUGE change in thought

[karmic bane]

Entity
An entity represents a general-purpose object. In a game engine context, for example, every coarse game object is represented as an entity. Usually, it only consists of a unique id. Implementations typically use a plain integer for this.

Component
A component characterizes an entity as possessing a particular aspect, and holds the data needed to model that aspect. For example, every game object that can take damage might have a Health component associated with its entity. Implementations typically use structs, classes, or associative arrays.

System
A system is a process that acts on all entities with the desired components. For example, a physics system may query for entities having mass, velocity and position components, and iterate over the results doing physics calculations on the set of components for each entity.

The behavior of an entity can be changed at runtime by systems that add, remove or modify components. This eliminates the ambiguity problems of deep and wide inheritance hierarchies often found in object-oriented programming techniques that are difficult to understand, maintain, and extend. Common ECS approaches are highly compatible with, and are often combined with, data-oriented design techniques. Data for all instances of a component are contiguously stored together in physical memory, enabling efficient memory access for systems that operate over many entities.

Here, feast on my wikipedia excerpt

[sharp lake]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh I get it

[fleet isle]

I've done way too much Minecraft plugin coding so anytime someone says Entity, I immediately picture something like a Minecraft Zombie.

[sharp lake]

You don't iterate over the lists of components because you mix components in systems

[hidden jasper]

The screens we got are not very promising.. they used I prefix for interfaces (antipattern) like they have DefaultChunkStorageProvider, but the default interface is still called IChunkStorageProvider..

[kindred crescent]

Yeah, "Entity" in this context is basically just an ID (a number) that is used to be referenced.

[stray pasture]

I modeled my plugin architecture off of ECS. 😄

I have a plugin system that works primitively - I want to make a card game. I created many plugins (Card Game Framework this is an orchestrator of other plugins):

• Entity System
• Container System
• Effect System
• Pooling System
  etc, there are more

But how they work is the Card Game framework brings these together and defines "Card Game" - I could use these to make GTA if there are enough of them. 😛 - But I assemble what I want.

So if I want to build a card game framework I just call these systems who do that management for me. They already exist.

Not the exact same, but definitely modeled from. Also I removed a whole lot, don't expect to understand it, just know my games are built with plugins and composable. 😄

[midnight horizon]

it reminds me of my mile long custom_check in my Gmod days. You have lists of what something is and what something can be and then define it as such. or am I wrong

[kindred crescent]

First time I hear that

[stray pasture]

We have promises!!! 😄

[silver bronze]

Interesting to see, you've done a lot of Java dev I assume but are not familiar with what OOP is? 😅
Nice to see that approach works though, do you just not feel like learning more about certain topics or is it just not neccesary for you to achieve your goals?

[stray pasture]

I was in the same boat, writing code and knowing concepts contrary to belief doesn't translate. 😄 - It is nice to know concepts and helps write code but not needed

[sharp lake]

I don't know any acronyms at all so, that could be tied to their problem
OOP is object-oriented programming, which they might be familiar with

[hidden jasper]

When you have clean code, ideal state is that you have no I prefixes.. only implementations should be described, imagine you have IStorage and Storage.. can you guess how Storage works? Probably not.. and now imagine you have Storage (interface) and FileStorage (impl)

[sharp lake]

The short-hand is only used when communicating with other people, you don't actually need to know how other people talk about the topics in order to practice them

[kindred crescent]

Seems to be a thing in other languages. My experience is in C# where the prefix I is the convention

[hidden jasper]

It's C# and Java convention, but it does not mean it's not antipattern

[stray pasture]

Yeah I wish it was all the same, but some dude perfered snake case over camel, another pascal over snake.. Like NO!

[karmic bane]

Btw did you guys see the newer numbers that Simon revealed on benchmarks? They managed to uphold a server with 70 players for 45 mins on 12 GB RAM and a Ryzen 7950x

[kindred crescent]

It does however explain why I never heard about it before though 😉

[stray pasture]

🙁 I was hoping better... My estimates are still holding though!

[kindred crescent]

I just follow the language convention or wherever I'm working at lol. It's not a problem 🙂

[sharp lake]

Did he post them on Twitter?

[near raptor]

That is quite steep in resources

[silver bronze]

That's.... not really a good sign now is it? Depends on how heavy the thing they were running was

[stray pasture]

Tis true!

Now did they have 3000 NPC spawn too? - THAT would be exciting

[karmic bane]

Vanilla SMP ig (which is heavy in comparison to simple minigames)

[fleet isle]

I've started with Minecraft Plugins in Java and for many years just simply did that. And I only really moved to C# when I felt like Java was no longer enough for me where I did lots of other stuff. But it took a long time for me to understand even the basic concepts of how I should for example be structuring my C# REST APIs and one day that concept, it just clicked. So I feel pretty confident in C#, not so much in Java, especially after not touching for more than a year, maybe even two at this point.

[karmic bane]

I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.

[silver bronze]

No clue how heavy a Minecraft SMP would be when it has 70 players and also heavily depends on if those 70 players are all in a different spot or at the same place, but at least very cool that we got some official numbers

[sharp lake]

Where did this come from?

[kindred crescent]

Twitter

[karmic bane]

X, oh it was from Slikey, my bad
slikey/status/2000608313977810946

[hidden jasper]

Can we get link to the tweet?

[kindred crescent]

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[silver bronze]

Do you perceive the difference between C# and Java to be large? To me they are very similar and objectively speaking that's also pretty much true. I suppose you will be returning to Java for Hytale?

[kindred crescent]

https //x com/slikey/status/2000608313977810946

[near raptor]

We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players.
Yikes

[fleet isle]

They are similar but I'm too much attached to QoL features of C#. It's gonna be painful returning to Java

[stray pasture]

There basically the same language.. 😛 I work in C# not in Java, but besides some modern things and super unsafe stuff C# is modeled after Java

[stray pasture]

Yeah. Kotlin though!

[hidden jasper]

That's like 10x times less than minecraft?

[near raptor]

A server with 8 players? In Minecraft you need not even 1GB for that

[karmic bane]

I mean, more like 4 times less but yea

[stray pasture]

That isn't true.

Dog on him! 😂 - My favorite!

[fleet isle]

I've tried Kotlin and I gave it the best I could multiple times. But it just never worked out well. I don't like Kotlin unfortunately. I rather prefer writing in Java than in Kotlin

[silver bronze]

Hmmm, worked with an older Java version all the time or something? Not sure what you consider valuable QoL but I find Java to be chiller to write honestly even if it not my main language

[kindred crescent]

Guys, everything is done server side. Of course the servers will have to be more beefy

[silver bronze]

Kotlin is heavily overrated and that's my ultra-controversial hot take of the day I will be dropping in here and then not mentioning ever again

[stray pasture]

Oh no your good, I am just hoping we get C# support cause I wanna stay in my isolated C# bubble.

[hidden jasper]

It's not, it's just that good

[stray pasture]

I will one up you! C# is just better!

[fleet isle]

For a long time all I did were Minecraft 1.8 plugins sooo yeah, Java 8 baby!

[sharp lake]

Is it even that much beefier? When was the last time you ran a Minecraft vanilla server on 12GB of RAM with 70 people?

[stray pasture]

Considering, These are good! Its that CPU though. 😄

[silver bronze]

Well Java 25 has had some changes since then 😅

[kindred crescent]

No idea, been over 10 years since I last touched minecraft servers

But apparently it's much worse than Minecraft so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stray pasture]

Ryzen 7950 - We all got one of these! 😄 Right?

[fleet isle]

Hang on let me check with my server provider

[rich solar]

Using vanilla and no pre-gen...etc. We usually use 1-2gb per user. The last vanilla run we did was 12 people on 16gb of ram and it crashed like 3 times lol

[silver bronze]

That's 32 very fast vCPUs in hosting terms lmao

[sharp lake]

16 core 5.7GHz

[prisma agate]

Nah, I got the 9950x

[karmic bane]

My trusted ChatGPT says Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM can handle 50-80 online player in Minecraft Paper sooooo

[kindred crescent]

Guys, remember like a week ago they crashed at 56 players

[stray pasture]

Is he trusted?

[kindred crescent]

Now they crashed at 70.
They are getting better 🙂

[sharp lake]

Paper is not vanilla, and Paper murders the ticking of basically everything

[prisma agate]

But I have 5mbps upload, so no chance I am hosting a seever on it (I do have a VPS)

[karmic bane]

Which is why I rest my case hehehe Hytale >>>>>

[silver bronze]

Also again, 70 players all in their own area is impressive, 70 players in a hypixel lobby would be a joke. More context is really required to draw any conclusions

[fleet isle]

I have AMD Ryzen 7 9700x... wait a minute, 9700x? Huh... it does say 9700x

[stray pasture]

Actually with the processing on the server this does just equal Minecraft... 😂 - SO its a little better

[sharp lake]

They said they were dropping ticks with their 70 player early-access test
So if we just constrain ticking like we do in Minecraft, would probably easily push it, assuming it's entity ticks and the like

[hidden jasper]

It was Ryzen 9 7950X

[fleet isle]

I mean I could grab AMD Ryzen 9 9950x3D. It's not THAT expensive.

[stray pasture]

Wait wrong number?

Were we lied too??!!!

[karmic bane]

And remember it's Early Access. Minecraft Paper had like 10 ish years to develop from what Minecraft had

[kindred crescent]

It will probably work just fine in like 2 weeks as they fix bugs

[hidden jasper]

xcancel(dot)com/slikey/status/2000608313977810946#m

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah, I am just doggin on them cause its fun. 😄 - They are pushing out a better than Minecraft performance off the bat, its good news.

[sharp lake]

I'm kind of in the boat that 70 players is already fine for a fully ticked SMP with no compromises

[silver bronze]

Paper performance was also pretty disappointing sometimes 😄

[hidden jasper]

Yes but 16 cores on one of the most powerful CPUs..

[kindred crescent]

Who even will have servers with more than 15 players at a time

[sharp lake]

They didn't show a utilization graph or anything, it was possibly unsaturated

[stray pasture]

Hypixel?

[kindred crescent]

And Hypixel has the resources to afford beefier servers 🙂

[sharp lake]

Does Hypixel want SMPs?

[kindred crescent]

That's my point. If you have more than 15 players online at once, you have the budget for beefier systems

[silver bronze]

Wonder what is the reason it uses so much though. Is it just the world, is it entity ticking? Because depending on the type of server, either/both of these could be heavily reduced

[sharp lake]

They just said 200 players per minigame server, and that's definitely plenty

[karmic bane]

Hypixel has like a yearly cost of 100.000 USD for networking alone ggs

[silver bronze]

Also depends on what rate it scales with players

[fleet isle]

They did say the simulation takes a lot of CPU

[kindred crescent]

Well first of all, most of everything runs on the server instead of the client

[sharp lake]

That's pretty standard though

[karmic bane]

Can't wait to code mah GPU-accelerated custom-programming-language-written minimal Hytale server yeehaw

[kindred crescent]

Yeah! Look at the RAM for instance: 8Gb for 8 players, 12Gb for 70

[stray pasture]

Just wait till we got mods going!!! 😄 That number is gonna tank quick!

Optimize yalls crap! 😄

[sharp lake]

LMFAO entity simulations handled by GPU

[silver bronze]

Yeah exactly, I have two questions

1. What is everything
2. How much of it can I disable 😄

[sharp lake]

You can disable a lot, apparently

[kindred crescent]

Almost all of it

[silver bronze]

Yeah I have seen that mentioned, I'm very curious what "a lot" is exactly

[karmic bane]

https://xcancel com/utfunderscore/status/2000621738762121475#m

[kindred crescent]

Is there going to be the capabilities to disable certain vanilla features entirely or have more control over them like e.g precise control over chunk loading, disabling lighting updates, creating void worlds, disabling mob AI

Yes to all of them. You dont just disable it but you can entirely unload the capabilities from the classloader and replace them with custom solutions.

[fleet isle]

Was about to send that lol

[karmic bane]

Given that lighting updates and mob AI are mentioned, expect like 95%

[kindred crescent]

They want almost every system to be a mod/plugin. So you can turn off a lot 🙂

[silver bronze]

Ooooh that is very cool. Taking up the challenge to write a custom solution that works faster /s

[dusky plume]

Mobs with AI incoming

[sharp lake]

Based on how he's worded that, I can't imagine there's anything that couldn't be removed LOL
You could kill the networking even, and replace it with something more minimal but within spec

[kindred crescent]

They said yes to that already

[karmic bane]

Indeed I wanna make an ML-powered autonomous agent as a buddy since I don't have friends

[stray pasture]

ChatGPT is gonna be your friend!

[fleet isle]

From Slikey:

Server Hosting itself will only become available with the Early Access launch. There is some more documentation releasing before launch though to give some best practice for hosting a server yourself or as a server provider but it takes longer than expected due to performance improvements.
Documentation? 👀

[stray pasture]

How much cursing did they do?

All comments are ***

[kindred crescent]

?

[stray pasture]

Tis a joke.

[kindred crescent]

Oh ok

[sharp lake]

Should be easy to tack an LLM onto your server and give every entity some chain of thought 😍
Just keep it to 1.4-3B or something and you're golden

[karmic bane]

I should look into Kotlin

[sharp lake]

I've had that thought a few times so far, I'm waiting until release though

[kindred crescent]

We gonna see adventure maps with NPCs connected to ChatGPT

[karmic bane]

Yeah but LLM often break immersion. I mean I am going to stick an LLM on it but only to talk. The autonomous agent would be a befitted model thats actually smart and doesn't have to generate tokens like "{Break block in front of you}"

[sharp lake]

LOL you'd have to ship API keys with your mod that way
Just fully embed the entire language model with another library

[kindred crescent]

Could always put it on a server

[sharp lake]

It's going to be on the server regardless

[kindred crescent]

On a server online

[sharp lake]

You mean an actual dedicated model of the behaviour, not using language as a proxy?

[karmic bane]

yessir, optimizes context window and stuff

[sharp lake]

Would be a royal pain in the ass, but would actually be efficient
Relatively speaking LMFAO

[karmic bane]

Yeah it wouldn't be a small project at all but a fun one

[sharp lake]

You could probably see some really advanced behaviours depending on how you train it

[kindred crescent]

So... When are we recreating Skyrim in Hytale?

[sharp lake]

I think Enton's idea is cooler LMAO

[karmic bane]

Yeah I mean if you have to beef up the server anyway might as well put an entire industrial-grade neural network on it eh?

[sharp lake]

You'd be surprised how cheap you can run neural networks for things like what you're describing

[west elk]

Something like HarmonyAI is specifically made for LLM-powered npcs

[sharp lake]

Ideally, you wouldn't use a language model at all, and just a model
But tacking a language-model on there is really really easy so LOL

[karmic bane]

Man I miss the times where language-models where novel and actually interesting technical feats, nowadays just download a model lmao

[sharp lake]

If Enton actually throws together some training scripts and a basic NPC implementation, you could do some fun stuff with it

[sharp lake]

I remember those times too, I did some experimentation way back in the day with code generation actually
Because the limited token-set made it easier to model

I just moved onto other things and eventually we saw things like Codex

Most of my other work was tied to machine vision and speech transcription

[karmic bane]

AI has gotten really opaque in their architecture too, I mean sure transformers but there's quite alot to machine learning and LLMs just take all that name for themselves while achieving lAnGuAgE oooo

bich I learned talking before I was 1 year old, LLMs really lacking skill

[sharp lake]

They kind of do a good job though, when it comes to making sentence-like structures
Much like little humans

At least in the quality of their structure, not the meaning

[karmic bane]

I mean I don't even manage sentence-like structures even at the age of 21, I give them that, but still!!!

[near raptor]

i very good english speaker beter then chad gippity

[karmic bane]

indeed

[normal ocean]

you forgot a dot at the end.

[near raptor]

I do like it when the LLMs use characters people would never use - for example - putting a dash - everywhere to make long - sentence

[sharp lake]

They got it from somewhere, some people do that

It's just more common in particular styles, and for some god-forsaken reason the big companies think we want everything in that style

[karmic bane]

I do that :(

[near raptor]

Ah so they trained the model on you then

[sharp lake]

Dear God— maybe Enton is one of them too?

[karmic bane]

Sorry, *I - do - that

[normal ocean]

something that is less likely that AI or any machine will be good at, is power efficiency like humans, i mean i can eat a freaking bread and function all day

[vernal niche]

Enton > Psyduck

[karmic bane]

I should probably do em dashes

[karmic bane]

Is that your way of saying German > English? lmao

[near raptor]

The first versions of ChatGPT were kinda funny because when I asked it for some Java code, it would also put down the package as com.ing. No, I don't work for ING, it just randomly decided that this class now should be put in a package of a bank.

[vernal niche]

For a bunch of pokemon names at least.

Also love me some Donaudampfschifffahrt

[sharp lake]

I'm assuming you can't talk about the scaling Nitrado have achieved with Hytale yet? LOL
Slikey posted some stuff on Twitter yesterday about the internal stress tests

[near raptor]

We all need some dampfschiffahrt on the donau sometimes

[karmic bane]

Rindfleischettiketierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz is still my favourite. Just because of Rindfleisch

[daring lodge]

16 cores for 70 players

[sharp lake]

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.
Just to repost it again

[kindred crescent]

And to point at a specific sentence I love:

We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[karmic bane]

Btw @vernal niche you would be the first person to abuse your access to the server files for benchmarking, no? Do you have some secret numbers u can drop? We are wondering if the 70 player count should be worrying

[near raptor]

I am sure performance will improve quite a bit, but running the Hytale server containerized with a requirement of 3 vCore and 12GB of RAM is quite a bit

[sharp lake]

Oh wow I missed the keyword there, "anarchy"

[sharp lake]

Abusing freedoms is how you lose them 😂

[daring lodge]

i need hytales version of spark

[kindred crescent]

Any of his benchmarks would probably end up being outdated anyway as the team keeps optimizing the game

[karmic bane]

Sssssh he doesnt have to know

[sharp lake]

I would hope they're focusing on features for now, getting ready for early access

[kindred crescent]

They have different people working on different things. Optimizing the game in this case also means fixing bugs. It's also important to note that they push servers/community quite a lot so it's important.

[karmic bane]

I am optimistic by him typing so long

[vernal niche]

I can't really add much to Slikey's comments other than that, as with any of those tests, stuff was learned that will very likely shift the picture for the next time. We have also done some tests somewhat independent from the Hypixel team to find out how we can prevent a server from running out of resources when a bunch of players all fly in different directions.

[kindred crescent]

Teleport them back to the spawn right?

[near raptor]

You could consider teleporting everyone back to spawn and send them a message "no you stay here"

[daring lodge]

pregenning

[karmic bane]

lmao

[vernal niche]

/kickban

[sharp lake]

hell yeah

[near raptor]

Ahh dang too slow

Make a mod that tethers all players together with a rope, solves the issue also

[karmic bane]

Use a database.

INSERT INTO positions (player_id, x, y, z) VALUES (1, 1.0, 1.0, 1.0)

[daring lodge]

if its within a world border maybe u can pregen everything

[sharp lake]

That's my plan, but I don't think that's what their bottleneck was in the play-test

[karmic bane]

I'd assume memory more than cpu times

[sharp lake]

I don't think so actually, not for this game

[daring lodge]

are chunks really that much memory, on mc u could get away with like 100mb per player

[karmic bane]

Bigger size, more blockstates, etc.

[weary rain]

How Will work server Creation?

[west elk]

java -jar HytaleServer.jar

We will get a guide shortly before launch

[weary rain]

Simple hahahaha

[fleet isle]

Anyone know any good jre docker images?

[near raptor]

I mean the basic is Eclipse Temurin, though I have seen Bellsoft also being used a bit

They offer jre images that are quite tiny, containing only the minimals for Java. Some of them are based on Alpine or Alpaquita

[fleet isle]

Eclipse Temurin doesn't seem to have jre 25

[near raptor]

Surely it does by now? Let me check

[fleet isle]

Not on docker hub at least

[near raptor]

Huh, you are right. Java 25 was released not that long ago I guess

[west elk]

this works fine for me
docker pull eclipse-temurin:25-jre-alpine

[near raptor]

Yes, actually, seems like it does exist

[fleet isle]

huh, if I put that into the search, suddenly it exists

[near raptor]

I can't share a link, but search for "25-jre-alpine" on the Dockerhub of eclipse-temurin

It is MUSL-based, so do be aware of that in case Hytale require glibc (which is not likely)

[fleet isle]

Vulnerabilities: 3 high, 3 medium, 2 low... lovely to see :)

[near raptor]

You could also consider liberica-runtime-container:jre-25-glibc or hardened-liberica-runtime-container jre-25-glibc

Haven't used the latter myself, but it is supposed to have 0 CVEs

But temurin is already miles better than openjdk image, which is full of CVEs

[lilac stratus]

my eye is tweaking out

[west elk]

how is microsoft's distroless build with vulnerabilities?
mcr.microsoft(.)com/openjdk/jdk:25-distroless

[fleet isle]

It says that the image is officially deprecated

[near raptor]

Temurin or openjdk?

Oh, OpenJDK, I see

[fleet isle]

openjdk

comparing to a well known docker image for Minecraft itzg/docker-minecraft-server they use eclipse-temurin:21-jre

[near raptor]

Yeah, eclipse-temurin is pretty much the defacto Java image these days

21-jre is not the alpine version, but should work either way. Depends on your requirements. The alpine image comes with barely any utilities, don't think it even has curl, so if you want to debug stuff it might be hard. But if you don't care about debugging the internals of a running container, then alpine is fine (so long as you dont need glibc)

[shy crest]

I'm still waiting for the day Mojang will add /unkick

[sharp lake]

LMFAO true we should be able to force players back to us

[karmic bane]

Imagine an exploit in the transfer packets makes that possible

[near raptor]

Some Hytale4Shell stuff

[vernal niche]

Folks do you think I'll get in trouble if I change our Hytale JIRA board so that all tickets in there say they have "Hy Priority"?

[kindred crescent]

You'll get a promotion because of how active you are in creating a good working environment in the company

[sharp lake]

Humour increases morale

High morale increases productivity, you're helping with meeting release deadlines

[lilac stratus]

Keep high priority but change it to Hightale

[kindred crescent]

Hy morale you mean?

[formal burrow]

you are a host why not you self host your own jira

[lilac stratus]

it's you!

[formal burrow]

just kidding lol there isn't anything too stable ironically

[formal burrow]

yes I am the cube from the dimensions

[vernal niche]

Thinking of good names for the other priority levels.

I don't need even to change Blocker, how nice

[stray pasture]

Jira is going cloud only. 😄

[vernal niche]

We did. Then Atlassian said we can't anymore.

[tidal mauve]

Atlassian has a real reverse midas touch

man rip trello it was soo good before atlassian got their hands on it

[karmic bane]

Azure DevOps goated change my mind

[vernal niche]

fun fact, Atlassian is making losses, and has not been profitable in two decades

[near raptor]

Atlassian is sunsetting OpsGenie. This means I cannot get traumatized anymore in the middle of the night.

[tidal mauve]

one of the reasons we dont use atlassian at work is this.

[formal burrow]

like an open source jira alternative

[tidal mauve]

another one is that its made by a foreign entity but thats minute things

[formal burrow]

one that has an n8n integration so you can hook it up to anything you want

[vernal niche]

it's called JIRA Service Management now. The integration is actually an improvement based on what I'm hearing from my colleagues.

We have B2B customers who need to open on-call alerts and that was always a pain with OpsGenie.

[prisma agate]

Try 37signals products, they have a bunch of stuff for corpo management/communication that is well made and self hostable I think

[distant kindle]

Can't wait to try to optimize Hytale

[karmic bane]

Can't wait to Hytale

[tidal mauve]

Cant hytale

[wet vine]

Hey I was wondering

How is asset loading to the client supposed to work?

Will it be like Garry's mod where before entering a server you have to wait ten thousand years for all of the modded assets to load in?

Oh found it.

Yeah, like Garry's mod. This is going to be painful.

[lilac stratus]

Could you explain to those with less experience what challenge we're facing?

[royal violet]

Nah Java minecraft wait was under 2 minutes with 300 mods installed on a steam deck, any you know the Java team didn't care about the time, so I'm sure as long as you have those downloaded it'll be faster than even current minecraft.

Plus I'm used to SE1 loading with hundreds of mods, so anything under 40mins will be better.

[wet vine]

The client has to fetch the files for models, shaders and sound before loading into the game by design as shown on that video

So everytime you enter a server in hytale, it's like downloading a modpack from scratch

[shrewd hearth]

unkick is crazy

[lilac stratus]

I care less about load time and more about server scalability

[wet vine]

Well, hytale is 2 to 4 times as pixel dense

But it's still pixel art and JSON sooooo

It's probably not that bad ™

Unless you managed to put together a kitchen sink modpack with 300 mods, then you're going to suffer a lot.

I'd be very careful with sound files

Those bloat up like crazy

[royal violet]

Yeah it won't be that long, think of it this way, it's better coded than minecraft unless riot botched the code.

[west elk]

I have 450 MB of server-resourcepacks on my minecraft server ^^
and yeah over half of it is sounds/music

[royal violet]

Which riot probably did ngl.

[wet vine]

Hopefully the average hytale player has gigabit internet

[river spruce]

Slikey confirmed yesterday that they do intend for the client to cache assets for "recent usage", so once that is implemented it will indeed not be that bad

[royal violet]

It already has a massive sound design, so alot of modders may use inate sound files to use is some things, they could use code to warp the sounds aswell.

[wet vine]

If the server got a really good CDN running at 300mbs or so

It won't even be noticeable

I'm afraid of downloading a gig of assets at 1mbps

[royal violet]

Real 💀

[wet vine]

Hopefully it's good enough

[royal violet]

That's my worry too, that might actually shoot me

Hopefully it has a dedicated cash ammount, if so we can manually expand it or retract it to save or consume more hard drive space.

[wet vine]

I'd hope you could just tell it download in the background

[royal violet]

It could also dedicate that cash to servers, kinda like minecraft.

[royal violet]

Me too, they could do a pre-download system.

[wet vine]

So you can go play minigames on hypixel or whatever while you wait for it to finish downloading

[royal violet]

Lmao.

I'm absolutely gonna blow up a steam deck by getting it to natively run hytale

[wet vine]

They said it won't support Linux on release

Hopefully they don't also intentionally break proton

That would make me quite sad as I bought the thing already lmfaoooo

[west elk]

It's not like they're intentionally not supporting linux

they just have windows as their compilation target, that's all

[wet vine]

They said they would do flatpak

[royal violet]

Aye lessgo, and no they just want to start on windows ^^

[wet vine]

Which I found really weird! Like proton is just less work

[royal violet]

They may do a native layer system like proton

[wet vine]

They could've been lazy and just wrapped up wine and the windows binary on a electron launcher

[royal violet]

I've heard that's a possibility for them, something like proton but one that interprets to multiple devices.

[lament steeple]

Slikey said they are 95% sure that a possible native linux release is possible on launch

a flatpack

[wet vine]

Oh, I misunderstood it then

[royal violet]

That may be true but they also said the initial release won't include Linux or mac

I think that's said on the main site

[lament steeple]

things change. we never know. we have to wait 29 days and see

[royal violet]

True

I really hope for native launch, it'll give me a reason to fix my steam deck.

[lament steeple]

i believe that we will get a flatpack (thats kind of copium lol) but hearing a developer saying him self that there is a chance is quite nice

[royal violet]

I really hope they consider a translation layer, because if they do they can get it to natively run on anything given enough time.

[royal violet]

Damn, that's a shot in the foot.

[karmic bane]

Linux users just too demanding fr

[lament steeple]

i dont need more than a flatpack

[wet vine]

Not really.

[lament steeple]

just something to run on my laptop

[wet vine]

People are just happy to have the game work at all.

[karmic bane]

People who receive all those demands will definitely tell you, they are

[wet vine]

Then ignore them

[silver cloak]

Too much work just to sell 1000 units. Windows and Mac is a bigger market

[wet vine]

Circle's I've been in are happy to receive testing on proton

[lament steeple]

bigger than mac? i dont think so

[wet vine]

Linux native build is already too much work and a stupid idea for a mass market product like this

[lament steeple]

more of a gut feeling but i feel like more people play on linux than on mac

[wet vine]

It's like double on steam lmfao

[silver cloak]

Bro I don't know anyone in the world that plays with linux outside programmers

[lament steeple]

you dont know a lot about linux then

[royal violet]

Million of Linux users use minecraft day-to-day, even if 10% of them come over its still easier to code from Linux to windows than it is to go to mac.

[silver cloak]

I don't yeah

[wet vine]

Every steamdeck player, yeah.

[west elk]

Note that all this talk is only for the launch window of early access. Additional linux compatibility is not out of the cards when they have some more development headroom over the next few years on the way to 1.0

[karmic bane]

Does steam deck even meet Hytale requirements, I dunno

[wet vine]

I'm kinda in a weird spot because most of the stuff I care about is really niche

[silver cloak]

you can't even run hytale on steamdeck...

[royal violet]

Not only do we have the steam deck but now steam os that has been adopted into a bunch of new handheld and not a dedicated computer and vr set.

[wet vine]

So it's usually 20% to 50% Linux people and they are all programmers too lmfao

Oh well

[royal violet]

I had 14 gbs of ram on mine, I could run alot even space engineers which is more demanding.

[wet vine]

Wild take

[silver cloak]

I mean software support guys

[royal violet]

It dose

[lament steeple]

i just checked. it should pass the minimum requirements

[wet vine]

Brother, touch a steam deck

[royal violet]

Proton can run native windows games and that's integrated into steam os

And it's without the bloat of windows

[silver cloak]

Steamdeck allows you to download from the web launchers? I didn't know that

[royal violet]

I could run minecraft, and that's not on steam.

[lament steeple]

it has software support. they have mentioned that the library that prevented mac and linux builds is no longer in the game

[wet vine]

It's a computer. You can wipe it and install windows XP on it if you want

They sell a dock explicitly so you can use it like a laptop lol

[royal violet]

You can dual boot windows and steam os if you wanted.

The steam deck will be the first Linux machine to run hytale, even without native luanch.

[rugged halo]

do we have any preliminary info on setting up a development environment? looking to get a head start in converting my old MC libraries (especially since Mojang slapped an old version of Jackson into the game and now my shit's broken lmao)

[royal violet]

I garuntee the reason why the devs of hytale mention proton is because steam or steam users will make it happend for them.

[wet vine]

I'd assume it's just intelij and java 25

[lament steeple]

probs just anything that supports java 25

[wet vine]

We kinda need the interface to build against first tho

[vernal niche]

I do not recommend that dock tho. I've debugged my Linux setup on and off for several months until I found out the dock has a bug that makes it randomly break with Samsung monitors.

Now got a different usb dock and problems vanished

[wet vine]

Wtf

[rugged halo]

yeah that's what I was wondering, was praying I wouldn't have to use gradle

[vernal niche]

My reaction exactly

[wet vine]

I mean, it's just a java project

As long as you can build you should be able to hand compile that stuff with javac

[royal violet]

That's an issue you could probably get a refund for idk how long you've had it tho.

[rugged halo]

well, dependencies

[wet vine]

Does it really matter?

[tidal mauve]

can still javac it

also maven

[rugged halo]

yes, maven is what I was hoping for

[tidal mauve]

you can use whatever as long as you get a jar you want

[wet vine]

I'm going to be using my trusty Kotlin everywhere :>

[tidal mauve]

though gradle fanatics will tell you otherwise

[rugged halo]

I should probably clarify - I was wondering if there's gonna be some kind of "project setup" tool that auto generates a Gradle project and makes me want to tear my eyes out (LWJGL does this)

[royal violet]

Hopefully they meant they won't look into proton or all of that for the preliminary launch, and maybe eventually they will do a translation layer, only we can hope tho.

[rugged halo]

As long as that's not the case I'm good lmao

[lament steeple]

i think they said the server api will be using maven? im not sure so dont take my word for it

[wet vine]

You do realize you can just assemble one yourself and post it to GitHub as a template right?

[rugged halo]

assemble what myself

[wet vine]

A template

[tidal mauve]

it doesnt matter what server gonna use tbf, its just that they build the server using maven

[rugged halo]

you do realize I'm asking if I can avoid gradle

[wet vine]

Oh I see

[rugged halo]

i despise it with my whole heart 😔

[tidal mauve]

relatable

[west elk]

I feel exactly the same way about maven ^^

[rugged halo]

maven with the one single pom.xml versus gradle with its own syntax and like 18 different tiny fragments of files

[lament steeple]

same

[wet vine]

Same

[tidal mauve]

this

[rugged halo]

professionally i am a C++ developer so take that with a grain of salt

[wet vine]

And cmake, and meson too

[tidal mauve]

also this

[rugged halo]

cmake is vile

[tidal mauve]

qmake my beloved

[lament steeple]

make is better

[rugged halo]

unironically a regular makefile is easier to deal with than cmake, i feel like

[daring lodge]

clion hates my makefiles

[wet vine]

Who would've guessed that a build system to build a build system is a horrible idea

[vernal niche]

You can by the way. Nitrado repos will use maven

[rugged halo]

i have no idea what a nitrado is

sounds like a crisp

[wet vine]

Sounds like a brand of nitrate adjacent cleaning product

[vernal niche]

That is okay.

You can use maven, that's the important part

[tidal mauve]

a game hosting provider currently partnered with hytale, aka basically the only other company which has server jar and is making mods already

[lament steeple]

i have to ask because im carious. is the xbox app still maintained?

[rugged halo]

ah, okay

[vernal niche]

The Nitrado Xbox app? Yes absolutely. Do you have any issues?

[wet vine]

Interesting.

[rugged halo]

that's very helpful actually, thanks

[lament steeple]

oh no no, i just have a fond memory of downloading it and it just existing on my xbox for years ao i was wondering if its still being maintained

[vernal niche]

Fun fact, I built that

[lament steeple]

thats dope

[tidal mauve]

does nitrado support modded astroneer yet

[royal violet]

I wonder how expensive that will be?

[vernal niche]

I actually don't know. Lemme ask internally. Give me a ping if I don't get back to you

[tidal mauve]

i dont know if anyone requested it, i remember it didnt when they started offering it

[wet vine]

Is it like a app to manage a server from your Xbox?

[royal violet]

I also wonder if hytale will do native private servers, like realms.

[lament steeple]

i dont think its planned yet

[wet vine]

Actually, can you even use custom servers on Xbox? I remember having to use this weird proxy to play Minecraft bedrock with my brother in a dedicated server

[tidal mauve]

xbox doesnt want you to play online games without subscription

[lament steeple]

depends. stuff like fortnite works without live gold

[wet vine]

No like, he had the thing, but there just wasn't a box you could input a IP in

[vernal niche]

Yes. Microsoft wanted that if you buy a server for your xbox game, you should be able to "stay within the ecosystem".

Which also means you have to go through their store, soooo

[wet vine]

So you had to use a smartphone to fake a lan game

This was on a playstation 4 tho

[tidal mauve]

huh

[wet vine]

YEEEEAH

[royal violet]

I think multiple it a year out, or it probably is, hopefully we get some form of server realese type deal with it.

[wet vine]

I see, so Microsoft has a custom thing for it

That's pretty dope

[vernal niche]

ARK was the first game with private servers on Xbox, but there was a whole dance we had to do to offer that, couldn't give out save files, ... It was a lot

[wet vine]

That's really cool, hopefully Sony let's you in sometime soon

[royal violet]

Xbox will come to steam before Sony makes even a step before they allow anything like that.

[wet vine]

They did already tho

You can buy halo on steam rn

[royal violet]

I meant natively

[vernal niche]

We have a number of PlayStation/crossplay games in our portfolio. ARK, DayZ, farming sim, ..

So far sony didn't complain

[royal violet]

I also meant in the inverse of what I said, steam to Xbox, sorry I'm dead in the head rn.

[royal violet]

Huh, maybe they can change or that's why they are upping the charge of the online passes.

[wet vine]

So Minecraft is blocked for some reason?

[vernal niche]

I can't give you the reasoning for Minecraft. Maybe it's a business politics thing because Mojang belongs to Microsoft, no idea

[stray pasture]

I doubt it, why else would they partner with Nitrado?

[royal violet]

True, that's a damn good point.

[stray pasture]

That is a damn honest response. 😄

[west elk]

Because they don't have the time and infrastructure right now to do it themselves. Nobody knows what the future holds. But I can imagine a future where Nitrado/Apex would provide the infrastructure for a 1st-party hosting solution

[stray pasture]

Yeah, its not "realms" 😄 Realsm competes against Nitrado as an example (not well but it does)

They also are kind of a 1st party solution even now given their partnership being a thing. Want a Hytale server? "Nitrado" we have given early access to to provde day one experience.

[west elk]

1st party in my mind means integration into the launcher and payment services

[stray pasture]

Does it require those to be first party?

You maybe right I didnt know this 😄

[royal violet]

Even if it dose mean first party integration it's still a second party you must go through to PURCHASE a server.

If they do go this route which I hope they don't, I'll look for a free way to get a server local or not for me and my friends.

[west elk]

You will always be able to host a server yourself for free

[fleet isle]

There might be something in the Multiplayer server section like: "If you would like to have your own server, may we suggest Nitrado as a provider for your server."

[west elk]

I don't think a direct ad like this would make a good impression on the community, especially during the buggy stages of early access xD

[stray pasture]

Ahh first party would mean Hypixel themselves host it.

Second party is like Nitrado and Hypixel Studios

3rd party is anyone else.

[fleet isle]

what do I know ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stray pasture]

I think it would be fine! Instant understand of who to go to, direct communication. I never found an issue, at least its not Ark...

[royal violet]

God I hope so, or atleast like danidipp said let us host one.

[stray pasture]

Thats a given we will no matter what. 😄

[royal violet]

Good

[near raptor]

Hytale Realms :l

[west elk]

yes. self-hosting is one of their core pillars

nothing to worry about there :)

[wet vine]

why would they get into the server hosting business?

Now you are competing with microsoft, amazon and half a dozen botique players

[west elk]

Because it's a stable and recurring revenue source

[wet vine]

I'd just partner with hosting providers and make an API where hosting providers "bid" for contracts

So you can operate the thing entirely hands off on both sides

[west elk]

then they couldn't really guarantee quality

[wet vine]

I mean, is amazon ever going to go down?

[west elk]

uh yeah, last month? xD

[sharp lake]

Linux users are among the most helpful for early access products, like this one
You get more bug reports, and higher quality bug reports, and it's not by a small margin
Despite being only 1% of the typical market share, and 3% of sales in some circumstances, they end up providing more than a third of bug reports
And those bug reports are often bugs that affect all platforms

[wet vine]

fair point

[wet vine]

I do wonder how much work it is to keep hypixel up

do they run their own servers?

Mojang can provide minecraft realms because they are backed by bloody microsoft azure

[sharp lake]

They "waste" a lot on proxies, and that's something they do not like about Minecraft hosting apparently
Said it costs them a lot of money

[wet vine]

define proxies? I am not familiar with minecraft server admin

[west elk]

yeah they're colocating their hardware in established datacenters

[wet vine]

So they rent a few VPS?

[west elk]

No, they own/rent dedicated servers and rent rack space in datacenters

[sharp lake]

You can't just run the game servers
If you want to move players between multiple servers, you need to route them via a "fake server"
It's a proxy that pretends to be a Minecraft server, and forwards a bunch of information between the other servers and your client

They have many many of those, which are connected together with load balancers and other things

This kind of proxy is not cheap to run

[wet vine]

I see. Seems a bit horrifying that that is such a big cost...

[near raptor]

It is somewhat crazy that we have to rely on PaperMC to pull the entire server ecosystem, with Velocity and Paper itself

Or Bungee / Spigot, if you're still on the older stack

[wet vine]

I mean it seems a bit crazy we have to rely on Linux to keep the internet up? It's just a open source project like anyother

[sharp lake]

There are basically no big servers that solely rely on Mojang's actual server software at this point
They're all modified with proxies and other projects aim to optimize the game

[near raptor]

I wonder if there is even any server out there that is public that uses the Mojang server jar

[west elk]

Here is some insight into their setup and how it would compare to cloud hosting
news.ycombinator. com/item?id=23089999

[wet vine]

OOOOOH

[sharp lake]

LMFAO I assume there's at least one big one somewhere

Oh man those bandwidth costs on that post

I wonder if Hytale is going to do world caching for mini-games
A hash of the initial state or something like that, no need to fetch it again once you have already

[near raptor]

700 dedicated machines is crazy

[wet vine]

This does makes me wonder even more about the asset loading now

[sharp lake]

I can only imagine how much of the bandwidth would've been unnecessary
We know the assets will be cached, but the world changes constantly

[near raptor]

Since Hypixel will eventually launch a first-party server, they do have all the incentive to optimize the game a lot to keep their server costs down

[wet vine]

I mean if you could send a progressive diff to the client

[sacred tulip]

If my math is right that's 100 players per machine

[sharp lake]

Yeah, but if you're sending the whole thing every time you load into a world
It'll add up, that's why it'd be interesting to see if they cache it for minigames
Situations where the world starts from the same state on load every time

[wet vine]

Kinda like git... the client could send a hash of the current state of it's chunks then the server could use that to compute just what it needs to change via a history thing

bonus points iis that you also get to rollback changes to the world, say, TNT.

[near raptor]

Hm, but you also cannot rely too much on the client's machine to just cache everything, consumes disk space and RAM to keep world information that is not relevant at the moment cached

[wet vine]

The client's machine is not on your monthly bill KEKW

[sharp lake]

You don't have to cache to RAM, only disk
And cache utilization for a mostly online game would actually be a good thing
You just have to make sure the user can manage the cached assets
Sort them by what they are and where they came from

[wet vine]

I think he means wear on the disk?

[sharp lake]

Maybe even offer ways for the server to invalidate certain caches

[near raptor]

Not everyone has speedy SSDs

[sharp lake]

If you offer caching settings, it'd be up to the user

You shouldn't get rid of all the benefits because some people might be using technology from 12 years ago

[near raptor]

That would be best. My hardware can certainly cache a bit, but plenty of players are on mid-range laptops with HDDs

[sharp lake]

How big do you think the read/write would be for a minigame world? I'd be very surprised if it were so large that it would even be noticeable compared to the network latency

[near raptor]

Though the Hytale system requirements (if you're only running the client) aren't all that demanding

[sharp lake]

Something like bedwars would be like, 16 chunks
And we know it's like 30kb a chunk

And bedwars specifically would be in a void world I think
So that 30kb number is inflated by a large margin even

[near raptor]

It's not like Starfield where the game literally wouldn't function if you didn't have an SSD hah

[dawn terrace]

Some people think the minimum spec of 8gb ram is too high but I don't think it is, that's pretty equivalent to minecraft (MC says 4gb but it will struggle)

[near raptor]

I guess 8GB is a bit

[sharp lake]

It's 8GB for the system lol

[wet vine]

oly@fedora:~$ lsblk -f
NAME        FSTYPE FSVER LABEL      UUID                                 FSAVAIL FSUSE% MOUNTPOINTS
sda                                                                                     
└─sda1      btrfs        HIGHWAY 17 50342b55-c625-4f9d-b8a2-2baef74b8370  753.1G    19% /run/media/oly/HIGHWAY_17
zram0       swap   1     zram0      e7c46f9a-03f0-4540-b103-c9b395dd05b5                [SWAP]
nvme0n1                                                                                 
├─nvme0n1p1 vfat   FAT32            578C-4E1D                             579.5M     3% /boot/efi
├─nvme0n1p2 ext4   1.0              654975bc-cf19-4158-aa47-67b2692696e2    1.2G    30% /boot
├─nvme0n1p3 btrfs        fedora     98f0a785-31d4-4a3a-81e3-f7fe921cfa53  342.6G    17% /home
│                                                                                       /
└─nvme0n1p4 swap   1                eef63be5-d764-40cc-83fb-8e1b751ccb64                [SWAP]

[near raptor]

The game might "only" use 4-6GBs

[sharp lake]

Are you even able to find machines that are sold with less than 8GB of RAM, but meet the other specs?

[wet vine]

I am...

[sharp lake]

Why are you showing this

[sharp lake]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking

[wet vine]

oh i just wanted to comment that i have a hibrid system

[sharp lake]

What is hybrid about that?

[wet vine]

75% of my storage is on spinning rust

[dawn terrace]

I think there were older chromebooks that had 4gb of ram but no, most modern laptops have more

[solemn brook]

Disk (/mnt/data): 231.30 GiB / 18.42 TiB (1%) - ext4

[near raptor]

A Chromebook with only 4GB of RAM? How does it even run Chrome then? 🤣

[sharp lake]

LOL it was older Chrome

[dawn terrace]

They didn't lol they were crap machines

[near raptor]

"Your Chromebook currently has 4 tabs open, please close one to open another one"

[wet vine]

I wonder I should probably go check on the current laptop line up

I have a feeling we are back to 8-4 gbs of ram.

[near raptor]

You'd have to be quick before the RAM prices catch up with the backstock of laptops

[wet vine]

bought mine in april, am laughin

[sharp lake]

I bought 48GB of DDR5 6GHz for 100$

[dawn terrace]

I used to have a laptop with 6gb but that was like a 2014-15 hp laptop

[near raptor]

I bought my current desktop in August, dodged a bullet there

[dawn terrace]

Last year i snagged 128gb of ram for like $200 at microcenter

Way overkill but now i pretty much have a goldmine lol, i could make double that selling half the sticks

Its crazy

[near raptor]

At least you got something like a microcenter. Europe be lacking hardware stores like that, prices on components here are by default already like 20% higher

[dawn terrace]

Microcenter is basically the only one left and they're super spread out. Other stores like radioshack vanished off the face of the earth

[near raptor]

Often they take the price of a component like it is in dollars and change the symbol to euros. Which is cool and all, if the euro and the dollar would be worth the same, but generally speaking 1.20 dollar is 1 euro.

[stray pasture]

Just saw some at best buy for $1500

[dawn terrace]

😬

[sharp lake]

Americans pay a noticeable sales tax, which is not included in the listing prices

[near raptor]

Define noticable. Here the VAT is 21%

But I guess that is already included in the advertised price

[sharp lake]

I'd say 21% is noticeable lol

So if your tax is 20%, and the price is "exactly the same" as the American listing but in euros
That means they did the conversion perfectly lol

[near raptor]

I guess so hah, I never really considered that sales tax isnt yet in the price in the US

[raven sparrow]

How? I cannot download it

[near raptor]

The game isn't released yet :p

[kindred crescent]

New tweets by Slikey!

New Hytale Footage... Kind of.. Well. Nerd Video!!! I was asked to show how our Github looks like using "Gource" visualization.
Here it is.. I wonder if you can see the part where collapsed the 300 branches into a single new main branch. Enjoy 😉

GSPs have told us that it seems similar to the other block game.. Also highly depends on how much world generation and how many NPCs are active. You can tweak limits for better performance but its always a trade-off.

[hidden jasper]

Link: xcancel(dot)com/slikey/status/2000706973075955761

[stray pasture]

Space battle!

[wet vine]

Can someone explain this to me?

It seems like there's a ton of divergence across several branches

How does that merge into a single thing? Or are these files and not branches

[kindred crescent]

They are files, not branches

[hidden jasper]

If you have no conflicts, it's same as having 1 branch anyway.. but often if you have a lot of branches, they cause conflict when they are going to get merged.. imagine you merge branch A and now it modified some lines that also branch B want to modify (not merged yet), so you have to rebase B to main and merge it then..

Yes, it looks like it's files on that git animation

And that green explosion is the merge probably, all of a sudden you get a lot of more files

[summer loom]

Yeah specifically it only shows the directories/folders, if it was all files it would probably crash.

[wet vine]

scawy

I kinda want to run the linux kernal through that thing, It's a bit cold rn. A burning PC would help.

[fathom pelican]

I messed up not buying 9 packs of ram with a 50 percent off employee discount 1 year ago

Could probably buy a house now with that

[formal burrow]

i mean end of 2025-standards 4GB of RAM is the new 12GB of RAM

[summer loom]

12 whole GB of ram? I didn't realize this discord was full of millionaires

[flint aspen]

Im assuming we can't start development till Jan 13th

[sharp lake]

pretty much

[flint aspen]

FAHHHHHH

[summer loom]

I mean you could work on some stuff before, anything not requiring the API. Depends on your project though

[sharp lake]

What are you trying to make?

[flint aspen]

Yeahh what I want to do requires the API

I can get assets and stuff made but thats about it :p

[sharp lake]

But what is it 😩

[flint aspen]

🤫

[sharp lake]

Definitely malicious

We'll be keeping our eyes on you

[fathom pelican]

Zero day vulnerability exploiter confirmed

[summer loom]

Can’t wait for: “Click here for free hybucks”

[hasty thorn]

We're off to a good start 🤣

[frozen yew]

How do I get the “HYTL” badge next to my name

[stray pasture]

It is in your profile settings. Somewhere says "server tag"

[sharp lake]

INSTALL NOW FOR 150% HYBUCK MULTIPLIER AND ORES
50% MORE ORES FOR FREE, INSTANT EASY COSMETICS
VISIT CURSEFORGE DOT COM AND SEARCH 'EZ HYBUCKS' FOR MORE INFO 😍

[formal burrow]

learn to vibecode, gather some remote desktops (like rent a vps/vds), load up claude code/roocode/cursor on those VMs so you can run them autonomously with little risk

if you wanna run AI generated java code on autopilot perhaps do it in a VM

you have plenty of time to prepare: servers should likely be ran in a docker container

learn java, learn vscode/intellij, learn maven, learn to make superjars/fatjars and learn how to use third party libraries, get your battle station setup, get an openrouter (so you have access to over 500 models, it's prepaid so you don't accidently burn hundreds of dollars on openai/claude tokens)

you have plenty of prep time to get yourself ahead

[stray pasture]

What in the world are super/fat jars? 😄

[stray pasture]

This is actually legit quite good advice! - One of the few who actually state something good about AI here. 😄

[formal burrow]

they are abominations: but, when you want to connect to redis servers, mysql servers, mongodb servers, it lets you use the third party libraries and drag the jar as is in the plugins folder of the minecraft server. not entirely a good idea but good for someone starting out. You could run into legal issues distributing fat jars but, it's a hotfix for in-house solutions, the people working on DonutSMP's built-in server shardingtech could be doing this and no one would care legally. However, it makes the jars take up more storage

[stray pasture]

Hold on I think I am missing context - And maybe not comprehending what they are exactly to put the pieces together. 😄

[formal burrow]

Let's say you want to connect to a mysql server from an MC plugin, you copy and paste that MySQL dependency from Maven to use the mysql libraries to connect, and when you compile it into a fatjar, it takes the mysql jar and combines it with your jar so the person who drags and drops your jar into their plugin folder doesnt have to install any third party libraries

[stray pasture]

Oh I see it is an all in one and brings all dependencies

Now I can see where the legal issues may exist. 😄

[formal burrow]

well the best solution is to have the jar externally download the jar when it's run in the plugins folder, then for it to use it

Not many people really expected Riot, the people who messed up Hytale, to sell the game back to Simon. These dumb companies constantly sit on IPs to do nothing with it (quoting the CEO from smiling friends)

being given almost 2 months from the buyback announcement to set everything up is more than enough time

[formal burrow]

So yeah long story short: Get an openrouter account (prepaid account for using 500 different AI models, can be plugged into cursor and roocode, you wanna be able to use the dirt cheap Deepseek stuff), set up some VMs, find some dirt cheap servers like the OVH $4.20/month 8gb of ram server and the advinservers $6/month 8GB of RAM single core Ryzen 9950x. Use those VMs/remote desktops to run your vibecode workers in them automatically so you only gotta worry about the contained VM nuking itself if it does something as stupid as delete an entire home directory (which Claude and Gemini I think have reportedly done)

Find some good AI models for coding, Claude is considered one of the best. Train yourself in using Docker. Learn to use third party libraries in Java since you'll likely be using PostgreSQL/MongoDB/Redis for stuff if you wanna actually optimize. grab VSCode/Intellij/Cursor. IntelliJ and VSCode with Roocode is probably what you want

im already in the process myself of setting up some self hosted stuff, I might set up a zulip since it has the apps and an n8n integration, nocodb selfhost for airtable alternative, n8n integration, perhaps teach yourself to write a NodeJS or Python web app so you can make a REST web API that Hytale can interface with so you can create an n8n bridge. Learn to use a REST API.

One use-case would be, take all public messages in a Hytale game server chat in the past 10 minutes, plug it into deepseek AI, have it summarize and pick important messages, and log it in a Zulip or in a Discord bot so the staff have summaries of what's going on. A Hytale plugin could log the last 10 minutes of messages, send it to the n8n node, the workflow summarizes it, then reports it back.

[sharp lake]

If you never sell it, you can skip out on some fees basically
And in some ways it's considered an asset which makes them more appealing to investors
It also helps with controlling your brand technically lol

[sharp lake]

This is an absolutely massive barrier to entry, and should absolutely not be the advice given to people who have never programmed before 🙈

They should just install VS Code or something, grab an extension for basic AI code completion and transformation, and then run with that
Trying to use fully autonomous agents when you don't understand the workflow yourself is a bad idea

Java mods are extremely easy to compile, and you really don't need to be jumping through hoops to use cloud compute to help you write and compile them

It'll be unfathomably slow to work in that manner, even more so than just using a built-in chat window in VS Code

[stray pasture]

But "learning" java is to much work. Takes a few years. 😛

[sharp lake]

You don't even need to learn Java to write in Java anymore 😂
The AI knows basic syntax as long as you know the basics of programming

[stray pasture]

Oh my gawd your an AI user tooo?!

Ah but the conc Dr pts are the things that take years. Knowing what and where is the whole thing of programming. Syntax and language is easy!!! 😄

[sharp lake]

Nah I write like a normal person, but when I don't know basic syntax I've used AI to convert pseudo-code

[stray pasture]

How did my phone do that? 😄 I don't even know what that was supposed to be. 😛

Ah but the conc Dr pts are the things

[sharp lake]

When writing Lua for ComputerCraft programs, I didn't know the basics so I just wrote stuff like for i in 1..3; print i; done and it worked fine
Taught me how to iterate over a range of numbers

I wouldn't trust it to do literally anything else though 💀
Asking it to write a whole plugin is literal lunacy
Asking it to create an empty class for you is more reasonable

[stray pasture]

Ooh. 😛 - I do that 😄 Actually I have written an entire card game 😄 - I know what I want and very much all of it, I really just don't want to write it. 😄

[sharp lake]

AI just makes things that look correct enough, so it can be difficult to spot logical errors

I did try to ask Google Gemini to "clean this up a bit" when referring to a code block, and it failed spectacularly, just the other day 💀

[stray pasture]

My philosophy is "Does it work?" Yep! "Errors come up as I go" 😄 - Security is different you kinda just have to know that stuff, but otherwise it works!

[stray pasture]

Never had luck with GPT or Gemini nor Grok...

[sharp lake]

imgur*.*com/tEWfM3d
If you were curious

In summary, it didn't clean it up. It added like 40 lines of comments, and broke the functionality of the program by over-complicating and missing things

[stray pasture]

IF it didn't break it I would consider it cleaned. 😄

One thing I hate are the comments are excessively "AI" - Like it writes pretty good code! But darn those comments!

I may be on like my 400th prompt though, so you know. it is an iterative process! 😄 - Gotta learn the AI language, but I have written some apps in Rust, C++, Java, C#. Scripts, and I mean 6 hours to get a non UI pure functionality and I can get something decent!

(I didn't write, I read and think though) 😄

[sharp lake]

The original code was like this:

• Create folders
• Copy data to final directory
• Make every file executable

The updated one was:

• Create folders (but expanded to be 4 lines instead of just one)
• Uses a find command to make every folder read/write and executable (which was pointless because it's a read-only directory, and the copy command does +x by default)
• Uses another find command to make every file read/write (which was pointless because it's a read-only directory)
• Checks if a folder exists and then uses another find command to make each file in it executable (it searches a folder that doesn't matter, and misses the one that does)

[fading mist]

who could have guessed that vibe coding would lead to functionality and optimization problems

[sharp lake]

Plus the multi-line comments explaining the basic GNU utilities and how they were being used

As if nobody has ever used cp or chmod before

[sharp lake]

I was curious whether it would come up with a simpler way of doing what I was doing, hence the "clean this up a bit"
But it did not! It genuinely did the exact oppposite of my intention in every way lmfao

[stray pasture]

Yeah that is fun, I found a way to avoid a lot of the stuff. But it does require a lot more refined and smaller chunks usually once sizable requires a bit of context from your code base. Every now and again I will get some of that junk

[sharp lake]

It couldn't even handle a 5 line bash script so, and that was the latest Flash model from Google 😭

[fading mist]

i see quite a lot of similarities between asking ai to review/write code and the halting problem

[sharp lake]

What is the halting problem?

[fading mist]

you're asking to see whether an algorithm can determine whether some code will function correctly

[fading mist]

determine algorithmically whether any arbitrary program eventually stops running (by reaching a halt command)

[sharp lake]

Ah

[fading mist]

in the case of ai generating code, it could be equivalent to asking whether the code generated by the ai eventually reaches the return statement for the main method

and famously, alan turing showed that there isn't a better way than simply running the code and waiting until it stops (for completely arbitrary programs)

[stray pasture]

Of course it was Turing... 😄

[fading mist]

interestingly he wasn't the first

but his proof is probably the most famous

[stray pasture]

I took the Church-Turing thesis about what are the absolute pure basics for ANY application to function and deduced it to "Transport, Storage, and Events" - Anything can essentially be built off of these three. And welp, I am 20 plugins deep, one simple runtime and a very imaginative brain. 😄

[fading mist]

but the point is that obviously for a code to work properly it should halt at some point (possibly with some kind of user input), and the language model would need to be able to determine whether the program halts before it can determine whether the program halts in the correct way

since there isn't a way to determine whether an arbitrary program will eventually halt without running it until it halts, this to me is a heuristic way of explaining why ai is bad at writing code

[stray pasture]

Well this is where iteration is key - AI doesn't "iterate" it just spits out jumbled mess, we have to stop and test once we get so far. We don't know what we don't know.

We also naturally break into smaller pieces - We can't solve the halting problem either, yet we have a brain that forces us to create workable code due to that iterative and testing step before we grow into complexity

This is essentially how I think people should use AI. - But I have seen many just ask it to create whatever they described.

[fading mist]

the difficulty in getting ai to write code is that it doesn't have any fast way of checking whether its output actually makes sense, besides being laboriously and manually trained by skilled programmers

[stray pasture]

Yeah! I was just about to say your origional point is correct and I just accidentally re explained it.. 😛 Sorry!

But yes, although I don't think this is much different from humans, I think many just have unrealistic expectations of AI. - Though I treat AI like stack overflow and don't expect it to solve my problem, but rather translate it into code.

[sharp lake]

It's just predictive text, and I'm of the opinion that a diffusion-like approach is going to be a better path forward for language modelling
It's bad at writing code just like it's bad at writing stories
It gets too specific, and there isn't enough data at that point
Diffusion doesn't solve that, but it'd be a better fit for 'fill-in-middle' models like programming ones

[stray pasture]

Then again this should work very well given it isn't "Creating" and inflating. its conforming

[fading mist]

i have doubts about getting ai to write code in general, because code often fails completely if a small detail is overlooked (unlike language)

[sharp lake]

That's how stories fail too

Code itself is a very limited token-set compared to language though, which helps with modelling it

[fading mist]

the bible isn't always consistent with itself but it still generally succeeds in communicating its messages

[stray pasture]

Well, I would like to challenge your argument here, I think this is unrealistic to expect AI to just shovel something perfect out.

[fading mist]

the thing about code is it generally either works or it doesn't

[stray pasture]

Correct! - But from my understanding your saying AI should skip the fails humans do because its AI?

[fading mist]

my point is that an effective (and thereby consistent) code-generating ai should reliably generate functioning code

but for various reasons this is infeasible

[fathom pelican]

You know your stuff

And didn’t expect to come in here and see Turing in the chat. That was a nice surprise and read

[stray pasture]

So than a human should be held to that exact standard, which just isn't going to happen

[fading mist]

the point of having a machine do the work is that it should surpass humans in productivity

otherwise it's a waste of time and effort

[spice sluice]

the only problem I see is that the model is not trained specifically for your code base so it does not know it and just uses information you give it in prompt

[stray pasture]

Using AI is more productive, but making it build a system IT has no clue about is asking me to go build a black hole.

[fading mist]

one of my points was that training the ai would be really cumbersome, and programming styles/paradigms falls under that

[stray pasture]

I can't see a world where AI is purly more productive than a human. There would have to be a tandom amount of work being done.

I guess it would be if you ask it to create an already solved problem

[sharp lake]

I also think it's infeasible for it to reliably generate code
The longer the problem, it gets exponentially more niche
Predictive models just don't work for edge-cases, and anything overly specific is an edge-case

[stray pasture]

At this point AI is a good second brain, just like having a peer working out a problem with you. (Though it sucks a bit more than a peer, more like google) 😛

[sharp lake]

Maybe if you find a model that isn't overfitted and wordy 💀
The fine-tuning they've been doing at Google is definitely a gimmick
The last thing I want an AI to do is spam my code with a thousand comments completely unprompted

[silver bronze]

Haven't read the entire discussion but curious to see why people are planning to use AI for Hytale development. Sounds like a not too great idea to me even if you somehow finetune it on the entire server source 😅

[fathom pelican]

I don’t think the issue is AI outright replacing programmers tho.

It’s the fact that one senior with AI can now be far more productive causing companies to hire much less juniors and mid levels. This isn’t conjecture it’s already happening and will accelerate until AI plateaus

[fading mist]

with the size that datacenters and training centers have already grown to, i think we're starting to see ai reach its physical limitation

[sharp lake]

That's what I was saying too!

Last time we talked about this lol

[fading mist]

there's also quite an abundance in juniors anyway

[stray pasture]

I still don't understand this sentiment. I either use AI very much differently than everyone else and get fantastic results - Or there is just a natural hatred or pure misunderstanding of how it is used.

[fathom pelican]

And with the way boot camps and learn to code was pushed during when hiring led to more vc funding the flooded market just can’t support it anymore. AI sped it along

[fading mist]

i think people should be proficient in at least one programming language anyway, even if it's just python

[stray pasture]

This I stand by. If your using AI you should be able to talk to the talk afterward.

[fathom pelican]

Python isn’t a language , it’s just AI html for scientific nerds (I’m jk don’t flame me)

[stray pasture]

Whats funny is now I can totally see that

[fading mist]

i mean this for people who want to pursue a career in completely unrelated fields

like i study chemistry, but i still am very familiar with java and have some familiarity with c

[silver bronze]

I simply do not see how it could provide any benefits. It cannot help writing any "new" code, which basically all Hytale development will fall under. It also cannot follow any internal or external (community) standards properly as they are not yet defined. It is up to you as the (lead) developer of your project, together with the Hytale community to set those standards to ones you consider appropriate. AI will simply just go for the nearest neighbour when it comes to coding styles but it might not be the best.

How would you use it then for Hytale?

[fathom pelican]

The average person didn’t care about coding until people learned what you could make. Let’s be honest

[fading mist]

naming the npcs lmao

[sharp lake]

I'm curious about how your work looks
I've seen a lot of people write code poorly, even without the help of a machine that blindly creates code
And I can't imagine it helping too much with avoiding that part

[stray pasture]

This is not true. Nothing is new, its just different context. We are not researching new physics engines here

[stray pasture]

Well I have 17 years of programming without AI backing my understanding and comprehension, I didn't just walk into programming using AI. 😄 - But yeah I wonder how it compares now. 😛 (Google was my best friend) 😛

[fathom pelican]

Hytale source content isn’t the issue. Length and context based performance deterioration is. Nothing in hytale source is new. But it’s big and convoluted.

[sharp lake]

It can write new code, it's just that it's increasingly unreliable the further you deviate from the norm
It's going to mimic the style of other projects because there's nothing on topic

[fathom pelican]

What Shelbie said

[sharp lake]

The API is going to be new, and overfitting with other APIs is going to interfere

[stray pasture]

This bottom portion is key

[silver bronze]

Sure, you could argue things have been made before which is obviously true, but also you named it yourself already: its context that matters. And that context, especially in a greenfield project, is non-existant to an AI and has not even been properly established yet.

[fathom pelican]

I meant more at a core level. Essentially nothing is new anymore. There’s no new technology being used here as far as I know

[stray pasture]

But you can feed it to AI.

If I want to develop a system that doesn't exist "No API" etc - I need to understand what I am making to tell it what I want, I need to understand what it all means. Doesn't mean I need to type it. 😛 (Should refine, doesn't mean I need to type all of it)

[fathom pelican]

Oh well. Wherever anyone stands on this AI thing. I’ve been wanting to learn potato farming anyways

[stray pasture]

I have a great AI course for you!

[silver bronze]

I consider context to be more in-depth than just the server source code. Just how Bukkit plugin development had its own "rules" and standards people followed, Hytale will too and those will be established over time.

For example:
If you asked an AI without context to do something every second, it'd probably just make a 1 second loop. Whereas with Bukkit, you'd create a Runnable of 20 ticks etc.

Technically the AI is not wrong, but it's missing a subcontext rule. Which will always happen, unless you explicitly define these. Which could surely work, but will involve a lot of manual labour.

[sharp lake]

Technically the AI would be wrong because it'd almost certainly stall the thread LMFAO

[stray pasture]

Well there is the problem!

1. Without context, why are we talking about AI as if its magical?

[sharp lake]

I don't know if you got the see the image I posted earlier, but it botched everything

[silver bronze]

Well technically correct != a good solution 😂

[fathom pelican]

Speaking of ,I remember when I was starting. You quickly internalize you need a stop condition in loops. Truly magical the first time you make your system unresponsive. Really helped me learn.

[sharp lake]

LMAO

[stray pasture]

I think what the missing piece is generating solutions vs using it to type faster.

[silver bronze]

I prefer MonkeyType for the latter 😛

[sharp lake]

What is monkeytype?

[stray pasture]

Like I know what I want, I know how to make it, I can visualize it - But why write 500 lines when it gets generated in a few seconds and a few minutes to reveiw and modify? 😄

[stray pasture]

Typing Speed Website

[silver bronze]

Site to train your typing speed

[sharp lake]

Oh, I see

[fading mist]

my fastest in monkeytype expert mode 30s 100% accuracy was 124wpm

[sharp lake]

I type at 130wpm, but I'm not sure how helpful that is for coding LMFAO
It's probably more important to learn vim 💀

[fading mist]

probably not very important considering that for most projects you'll come up with code slower than you can reasonably write it

[fathom pelican]

Every time I decide I want to learn vim because of how useful it looks , then I open the cheat sheet. And decide maybe sometimes it’s better to walk away

[silver bronze]

That does make sense but to me, I have never really been in a situation where this has actually saved me time. Often there being too many errors in a response will require me to regenerate and wait again or rewrite certain parts.

I do use AI for coding though occasionally, but only when I don't care about output quality/performance 😅

[fading mist]

why use a text editor when you can use an ide

[sharp lake]

Yeah I haven't invested time into vim either
I use Zed as my IDE normally 💀

[fathom pelican]

It took me like a year to figure out how to close nano 💀

[sharp lake]

Because modern vim has language-server support, which makes it an IDE anyway
When people say learning vim, they just mean the vim-style keybinds

[summer loom]

Also coding wpm is frequently much slower than writing wpm because coding requires you to type characters like [] {} . , +_- *&% and other stuff constantly that is near the edge of the keyboard

[fading mist]

my school offered me a free license to the premium intellij features so i use intellij

[sharp lake]

I intentionally avoid paid and closed source tooling
I personally think they're a scam!

[fathom pelican]

Awww but I need people to fund my jetbrains IDEs

[fading mist]

intellij is really reliable for java so i use it to develop minecraft mods

[silver bronze]

IntelliJ community edition is free luckily but I do understand and respect your views

[sharp lake]

I hope they go under and someone open sources their entire project after decimating their company 😍

[fathom pelican]

Shelbie out here launching torpedos

[sharp lake]

I think I have IntelliJ IDEA installed but I haven't used it in a very long time
And will be actively avoiding it when Hytale drops

[silver bronze]

Do we know if Hytale recommends Gradle/Maven yet?

[fathom pelican]

Which one’s considered to be better ? I don’t really ever develop in Java

[sharp lake]

they're cancer.

[fathom pelican]

Aight, guess I won’t develop on Java

[silver bronze]

Both are a b**** to me but I prefer Gradle

[fathom pelican]

It can’t be worse than javascript dependency management and bundling….right..

[sharp lake]

LMFAO
Everything about dependency-fetching is cancer in every situation ever
Rust and NPM were fine but they cheat anyway with their centralized bs

[silver bronze]

"It can't be worse than javascript" applies to all things in this world to be fair

[sharp lake]

Anyway I hope it's gradle too 😭

[fathom pelican]

But shelbieeee, how else am I supposed to spread malware to billions of users without the centralized bs

I’ve had to update two projects this week alone from 2 vulnerabilities throughout the ecosystem. Just casual server side remote shell execution you know nothing major

[sharp lake]

Check my port 22, and try the top 5 most common passwords

I fear no RCE exploit, for I have RCE enabled already

[fathom pelican]

LMAO

[silver bronze]

Cargo is super chill to use though I must say

[sharp lake]

Yeah, it was fine
Which is like, the best a dependency manager could do

[fathom pelican]

With bars that high how can I ever succeed in life

[silver bronze]

PIP is centralised too (I think?) And its not as good so 😅

[fathom pelican]

Rust has interested me but it’s so niche. As a rule of thumb I never bother with anything that won’t make me bank. Just too old and if I’m spending time away from family and friends it has to be worth while

I haven’t found many rust jobs.

[sharp lake]

Rust can hardly be considered niche 💀

Microsoft went all in on Rust and it's already been added to the Linux kernel

[fathom pelican]

Mostly this. Least in my state. A search yields 2 results at most 💀

I know it’s popular

[sharp lake]

The US government even formally recommended Rust quite a few years ago lmao

[silver bronze]

"Niche" is a bit pessimistic, "upcoming market" is more optimistic. 😅

[fathom pelican]

Yes yes but this is all new occurrences. Adoption rate is still quite low. Anything in the tech world is like dns. Takes time to propagate. If you’re a rust dev where I’m at you’d need governmental food supplements

[sharp lake]

By new, how new do you think it is?

[fathom pelican]

Upcoming market. There’s the phrase I was looking for

[fathom pelican]

The government thing. I heard about it in the news recently. Not talking about the language.

And I know people that work at the government. It is slow. I’ll be dead by then

[sharp lake]

Rust first appeared in 2012, was added to the Linux kernel in 2020
The government thing was in 2024, and Microsoft started their mass-translation in 2024 or so as well

[fathom pelican]

But it’s all good cope anyways. I’ll never wrap my head around rust paradigms it just feels like it does everything completely different

[fathom pelican]

Yeah I know language is old. But I mean primarily adoption rate and jobs. The gov just now got in on it. Is what I meant by recent

Just 3 years ago I sat down and looked at the job market for rust

It was flat out terrible.

[sharp lake]

Amazon started using Rust for some things in 2019, and apparently Discord rewrote significant parts of their infrastructure in Rust

If you're comparing it to the popularity of JavaScript, you shouldn't be 💀

[fathom pelican]

I compare it to basically anything else

[sharp lake]

In the 2025 Stack Overflow Developer Survey, 14.8% of respondents had recently done extensive development in Rust.[191] The survey named Rust the "most admired programming language" annually from 2016 to 2025 (inclusive), as measured by the number of existing developers interested in continuing to work in the language.[192][note 7] In 2025, 29.2% of developers not currently working in Rust expressed an interest in doing so.[191]
It's topped the charts 9 years in a row apparently?

[fathom pelican]

Java eats it, python , JavaScript , even c and c++ , Ruby , still better options for employment

[stray pasture]

Rust where I am is a gamble aswell. 😄 (Also they want 20 years of experience...)

[fathom pelican]

Developers. That’s why I said niche. Stack overflow has a tab for proffesionally and rust is super tiny.

If you click on stack overflow for language most want to learn , rust is super high , then change to used proffesionally and it’s rock bottom. It’s ultimately a shiny toy in the grand scheme of things that devs love. But if I go to 5 diff corporations right now on my client list for a new implementation no one will choose rust even if I advocate for it

[silver bronze]

Well hey, you can most likely rewrite parts of Hytale in Rust for increased performance 😁

[stray pasture]

Rust for want, Java for current! 😄 Or is it Python?

[fathom pelican]

Woah. I didn’t know stack overflow 2025 was out already. Only 14 percent of devs had 1-5 years of experience 💀 I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. That is the single biggest “juniors are cooked” stat I’ve ever seen

[stray pasture]

Don't worry it has been a mid level and higher for a few years now.

[sharp lake]

What makes you think that it's super tiny? It looks like all respondents said 14.8% and only professionals said 14.5%
That's basically zero deviation, not a big drop

[fathom pelican]

I didn’t know the deviation I was based off prior years. Just looking at it now haha didn’t even know new one was out

Now I got something to do

[stray pasture]

Oooh I wonder where we are sitting now since Amazon had their fun big layoff? - Many game devs sittin out there, nearly impossible to get a job cause nobody is hiring - Don't go into the games industry yall!

[sharp lake]

It must've been some time ago bc I didn't know the new one was out either 🙈
The deviation was about 0.9% for 2024, and it's now it's a third of that

Either way, I wouldn't consider Rust to be niche at all
It's extremely popular among developers in general, and a lot of big names are using it now
There are about 50 jobs in my state for it apparently 💀
But assuming half of them are bad listings, that's still like 20 jobs

[stray pasture]

That isn't a ton. 😄

[fathom pelican]

Yup. But uh that’s what I mean. 20 jobs is awful

That’s super niche in the industry

[stray pasture]

Its like one department or just a startup - Like 50 jobs? 😄

[fathom pelican]

LOL

[stray pasture]

I thought it was 50 companies at first.

[sharp lake]

It's not like developers are born every day, most people give up
That's 12% of the development jobs in my area, 12% of the market here is Rust lol

[fathom pelican]

I want to learn the language but it won’t buy me bread

[sharp lake]

If you move here, you could buy bread with it 💀

[stray pasture]

The 100K on layoff would love to argue you. 😄

[fathom pelican]

I want to get into Java with hytale because at my workplace they use Java for backend systems

[stray pasture]

Oooh yeah, thats where money and stablility is!

Maybe not a lot of money! But bread!

[fathom pelican]

Yes well. But it’s also oracle db..

[stray pasture]

Nevermind you got bank

[sharp lake]

My workplace uses fckin Node for most systems 😭
And all of our hand-helds were running Windows 98 until last year

[stray pasture]

They gotta pay ya to be interested

[stray pasture]

First off, that is a glory of a company! - Win 98! Playin Doom at lan parties!

[fathom pelican]

That’s how it is. Were devs. We know what sucks and what’s awesome but companies don’t care. every server I’ve written at work runs on node 💀

[sharp lake]

So yeah, in case you wanted to know what my area is like, and why 12% of jobs are Rust
It's because nobody has touched anything in 30 years 😭

[stray pasture]

Python baby! Gotta get into that AI Engineer role! - Ya know? (Wild that is a real job)...

[sharp lake]

Been there done that
It sucks by the way, don't do that

[fallen geyser]

who want to play minecraft :P?

[stray pasture]

/Smite

[sharp lake]

/execute at Caroline run summon lightning_bolt

[stray pasture]

What is that like anyway?

[fathom pelican]

Helping AI goes against my beliefs. I will not create my own replacement. But then I see some of those salaries….

[silver bronze]

We play Hytale in here. Actually this is the channel where we don't play and just read/write about it

[stray pasture]

I mean if your replacement is a retirement... 😛

[sharp lake]

Well, it's a lot of math
And if you're not the math person, you're the API person
And their API implementations suck because they're all made by data scientists and not programmers

[stray pasture]

Not for me!

[fathom pelican]

I’ve been tempted lately to just rebrand as an AI automation specialist or something. Not too low level but high enough that enterprise companies still want it.

[stray pasture]

We complain about hytale here. 😄

[stray pasture]

Lol! join the build engineering club! Its fun! (You blame everyone else)

[sharp lake]

We complain about frickin Mojang in here
What a bunch of jerks

They led us on for a literal decade with their modding API promises, hired Searge and everything

And for what, they didn't even use him after poaching the community talent

They don't even listen, they're too busy milking the golden goose
And they're doing it with the code quality of a literal potted plant

[stray pasture]

I mean... I want some of that goose

[silver bronze]

I remember us being a bit harsh on Hytale performance recently but hey! An unoptimized early access has similar performance to the biggest game ever 😄

[stray pasture]

You mean the "indie game"? 😂

[kindred crescent]

is it really that bad though

[silver bronze]

Can't really judge without more context

[sharp lake]

I don't think so, but apparently they want to aim higher already so
They must think so

[kindred crescent]

Just the fact it has built-in shaders already...

[sharp lake]

Not even willing to give server spec recommendations yet

[stray pasture]

Thats client. 😄

[silver bronze]

Like a 2-3 players 1.21 SMP runs perfectly on 1GB RAM dont let the DRAM mafia convince you elsewise

[kindred crescent]

Oh you guys meant server

[stray pasture]

Wait your right though!!!!

[sharp lake]

I'm actually so excited for a proper indie with reliable funding

[stray pasture]

But Minecraft... Most reliable funding and indie!

[kindred crescent]

I wouldn't call it a blog post. It is more of a technical manual with some example data. Just wrapped up a playtest with 70 people on various hardware until we finally crashed the server.
There is a lot of context such as "minigame server" vs "exploration mode SMP". We believe that a 3 vCore + 8 GB server can sustain 6-8 players. A Ryzen 7950x with 12 GB RAM server, we were able to push 70 players but TPS degraded until the server crashed (~45 minutes).
I think we will defintiely see 200 player minigames such as Mega Walls or Super Sky Wars. While vanilla SMP is going to require some beefy hardware to push 100 players in a single SMP.
We are continuing our effort to improve stability and further add performance optimizations to get those big anarchy servers.

[sharp lake]

Terraria has been going at it for more than a decade, and they're still indie basically

[sharp lake]

I wish Minecraft were still indie
It's not like they were doing so hot before the sale, but it definitely did not help lol

[stray pasture]

Yeah I got no idea why people call it an indie game stil... 😛

[silver bronze]

Actually this does sound like CPU is the main bottleneck now doesn't it? 50% ram increase with x10 player count but x10 CPU usage

[sharp lake]

Do people still do that? It's been 10 years since they sold out lol

[kindred crescent]

Well take 70 players all flying super fast in a different direction, yeah, the CPU will need to be beefy

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah!

[silver bronze]

Yeah but then RAM usage would be significantly higher too due to loaded world. Its only 50% higher

[sharp lake]

That's actually hilarious
It's like the people who don't know what an indie music artist is

[stray pasture]

Depends on the way they store their data! Could be like vintage story!

[kindred crescent]

Maybe just keeping the world itself isn't that much, but generating it is quite a lot

[stray pasture]

Grab it in memory shovel it out to a nicely structure DB.

[silver bronze]

Unsure how vintage story does that but I can see what you might be implying

[kindred crescent]

Then again, you can optimize your server by turning off features:

Question:

Is there going to be the capabilities to disable certain vanilla features entirely or have more control over them like e.g precise control over chunk loading, disabling lighting updates, creating void worlds, disabling mob AI

Answer:

Yes to all of them. You dont just disable it but you can entirely unload the capabilities from the classloader and replace them with custom solutions.

[silver bronze]

Okay that's possible. But then what the frick is the other 8GB RAM for 😅

[kindred crescent]

Everything that runs on the server

[stray pasture]

Well it can't all go to the world. EVERYTHING is simulated. States, etc