server-plugins-read-only

[kindred crescent]

Releasing the game also prevents scope creep because now you have a game to take care of 🙂

[formal burrow]

Tebex wallet has accepted game payments for a WHILE now... In fact, I even saw them take payments for a server provider. They dont just take payments for in-game purchases. Overwolf actually fixed them up since buyout, unlike when they bloated CurseForge

[tidal fossil]

I mean, from what I understand, releasing it super ealry like this and developing it with the community in mind was always what Simon wanted and was part of the reason he split away to begin with. But I could be wrong. I don't remember where I saw that, so...

But I'm sure the cashflow doesn't hurt.

[remote garnet]

yeah, not a fan of Lombok, has given me a ton of issues

besides, there is Kotlin, which is more "chill" - you get more power to abuse its syntax with operator overloading, extension methods, and what not, which is extremely convenient (especially when used right, and not just abused)

[kindred crescent]

Imagine if they made the server in C# too 😔

(Makes sense they didn't as they started in 2015)

[neat scaffold]

Used Kotlin for Jetpack Compose and it was really nice tbf

[tidal mauve]

ill try to write a simple one over NY holidays

[sharp lake]

Over the past few weeks, we have rehired more than 30 developers who know this game inside and out, with additional returns expected in the coming days. Together, we are going back to the original vision for Hytale. We are fully independent and personally committed to funding Hytale for the next 10 years.

We're focused on building the game we always wanted to play, and one that we'd be proud for our kids to play, too. Philippe and I are personally committing funding for the next 10 years. This is our passion project, and we're here to make it last.

• Ownership: We own 100% of Hytale (repurchased from Riot Games)
• Funding: 10-year personal funding commitment; no investors or publishers

[near raptor]

The route with Riot with the new engine was driven by scripting (which gives me Bedrock flashbacks), I am happy they left that path.

[tidal mauve]

ill start with the networking side and anyone who wants to implement game features is welcome to contribute

[fathom pelican]

And in terms of the Java version. Slikey said it was gonna be Java 25 with quic protocol

[lucid agate]

Most certainly, Its not that I don't trust that they will probably put their best foot forward. when I was responding to an earlier comment, I just didn't believe they have funding for 10 years, a plan to fund for 10 years is completely different.

[remote garnet]

yeah, my personal favorite language, but I probably work more with TypeScript and C# than I do Kotlin

also JetBrains is on a serious downspiral at the moment, so that doesn't give me a ton of confidence in the future of the JVM platform - at least for my part, considering I wouldn't write Java if my life depended on it

[tidal fossil]

Ahhh, I see. Makes sense.

[lucid agate]

I've been learning Kotlin right now, working on making a few apps for the extra experience on android.

[vital fjord]

would somebody know will there be easy and quick way to launch srv via docker on launch ? like if somebody has homelab or server available at home. (not sure where to else question about servers) also is there any knowledge how java based modding will work?

[tidal mauve]

likely same as spigot/paper plugins

[fathom pelican]

Is it ? I’m so happy with my webstorm been using it for years

[vital fjord]

so download template, modify namespace and do yr stuff ?

[tidal mauve]

you'll probably be able to launch a generic docker java container and throw server files there

[tidal mauve]

never used templates for this stuff, that sounds so weak

[remote garnet]

yeah, look at what JetBrains are working on, so much nonsense that nobody really wants (or asked for?), it's crazy 😂

[viscid wren]

Yup this worked I just pre ordered it

[fathom pelican]

Oh now I get it. Standard AI shovelware slop thing. Ehhhh that’s every company now unfortunately

[vital fjord]

templates as either base project to start off or some kind of setup tool that will create basic stuff for you

[tidal mauve]

Eclipse doesnt do that

[fathom pelican]

You get Ai! I get AI, we ALL get AI. Don’t want ??? Too bad it’s in a forced update hooooray

[tidal mauve]

spigot only needs one yml file with name and class path from you, its not hard enough to justify templates imo

[lucid agate]

Last java ide that I used I think was eclipse, jetbeans/netbeans I always had trouble navigating the interface from my memory its been quite a few years.

[vital fjord]

AI in inteligj? found it at school... last time I checked it was 1 or 2 buttons to shut down

[fathom pelican]

AI is everywhere. Great if you can turn it off. At work it’s just auto turned on per policies for people haha

[vital fjord]

try disabling plugin called line autocomplete

[remote garnet]

sadly, yeah - I haven't personally had too big of problems with my JetBrains products either, but I've heard plenty complaints for people who use their products more than me (I don't do programming for a living anymore, just ocassionally when something is up at work that requires it), but I have noticed that IntelliJ sometimes freezes up

then there is the Kotlin side of things... they had Kotlin Script... or have? who knows at this point... they rather work on this AI garbage than working on the things people actually wanna use 😂

[vital fjord]

fleet might be the easiest to turn off AI

[near raptor]

I meaaaaan it's not like Microsoft (TypeScript / C# / VSCode / GitHub) isn't slapping AI into everything it sees

[fathom pelican]

I’m more talking about windows computers , outlook , and gmail, and all these third party apps that worked fine before now having an AI button forced in. Or component. Laptops with the copilot button is SO bad. You’re using up physical space for slop

[sudden dew]

intellij try not to break something every update challenge (impossible)

[neat scaffold]

I'm convinced 30% of the people in this chat actually know what they are talking about 😂

[fathom pelican]

There’s probably a good amount of younger people. You can def see who has more or less experience but that just means you have an opportunity to help others grow

[sudden dew]

im not one of them 🎋

[remote garnet]

no, it's just all over the board, but I'm not as involved with those products, hence why I don't mention it

also! just because everyone else is doing terrible stuff, doesn't mean it makes it better that JetBrains are also doing the same stuff - why can't they be the exception?

but open source stuff thrives, so perhaps we'll see Zed take a significant share of the market, if JetBrains and Microsoft keeps at it the direction they're heading now

[vital fjord]

damn the longer you code the more you see how you can do stuff diffrently

[fathom pelican]

Just think. Unless you doom scroll tik tok all day there’s literally no way to know less. You can only learn more

[tidal mauve]

Eclipse moment

[fathom pelican]

I love how Linux doesn’t even force or prompt you to install security updates hahaha

[tidal mauve]

no bs in terms, no bs telemetry, no ai

[sudden dew]

its my finals week and ive spent all day doomscrolling reels

[tidal mauve]

yes ai if you want though*

[fathom pelican]

💀

[remote garnet]

yeah, it's designed for power users, or perhaps probably even a level above power users 😛 while Windows (and macOS for that matter) is designed for the average Joe

[remote garnet]

I remember using Eclipse, was good, until I discovered IntelliJ and actually gave it a shot 😂

[vital fjord]

I am on bazzite and I feel I could give it to some people that are bit forse with pcs

[sudden dew]

not forcing you to update isnt even a power user thing. if my two options are shutdown or update and shutdown, and i press shutdown, i expect it to not update...

[fathom pelican]

I love my Linux setup. It’s my main gaming rig too. Steam and proton has gotten so good unless it has some kernel level anti cheat tapped on top (which means it’s live service slop I usually don’t play) everything works

[sudden dew]

best part is both options turn your pc back on after it updates anyways

[tidal mauve]

i remember when everyone started saying "bro switch to intellij its so good" and i tried and it absolutely sucked ass

[vital fjord]

question... have any of you tried jetbrains fleet ?

[near raptor]

Windows actually finallllyyy fixed this issue not long ago

[sudden dew]

but then again while trying to update my linux packages i accidentally messed up my boot. apparently dnf5 is unreliable had to use dn4 to get everything to update?? so maybe it is power user territory

[fathom pelican]

Nope but I heard it sucks. I do use webstorm and rider tho

[near raptor]

Fleet is meant to be VSCode's competitor, but it isn't really there yet

[stray pasture]

I use Fleet! I enjoy it!

[remote garnet]

Linux has gotten so much better over the recent years, and there are quite a few distros now that focus on the average Joe as well - Ubuntu has done that more or less for ages, but not really that many others (I think)

I'm not really a huge Linux-person myself, so I might not be all that accurate on the topic. I do like Linux though, and would love to daily drive it, but it just isn't feasible for me at the moment (due to both work and multiplayer games)

[fathom pelican]

It might be good. I’m an oldie tho as you get older I just appreciate stability more. Just want something that works all the time and is old and stable. Not too fancy. So long as it gets the job done I’m happy

[vital fjord]

it is good enough in my opinion

[sudden dew]

after using intellij for years i can never move back to eclipse now though. tho in my case its just because all the extensions i find necessary for mc modding just dont exist on eclipse

[stray pasture]

This is exactly my opinion. Fleet to me is just a text editor I don't use its "feature" set. 😄

[tidal mauve]

what extensions do you use?

[near raptor]

I have used IntelliJ for years and also can't really switch to something else. It sometimes surprises me to see how many issues people have with it, I have used it for years without major issues or performance problems.

[rugged zephyr]

do we know anything about the plugin api yet?

[west elk]

Nope

[sudden dew]

mcdev, the mixin squared mcdev addon, and stonecutter syntax highlighting

[rugged zephyr]

alr

[sudden dew]

stonecutter syntax highlighting i can live without. i dont need mcdev or the mixinsquared addon to write mixins but without it its so much harder and time consuming

[vital fjord]

I don't know your situation, but well you can always check protondb and areweanticheatyet

also correct me if I am wrong, but hytale should work via proton right ?

[sudden dew]

most likely yeah

[remote garnet]

yeah, already did hehe

Hytale should work on Linux, they aren't guaranteeing it, but they are gonna try to make it work, so it most likely will from day 1, even if it's Proton

[sudden dew]

dont think it even matters that much whether they ship native builds or not

[vital fjord]

it does a little

since with native builds ir runs slightly faster

[sudden dew]

well assuming they actually make it well

there's several games on steam that run worse on native than via proton

[stray pasture]

Okay after 6 hours my payment went through

I got a generated name of "Ruallake634. 😄

[sudden dew]

cant wait to download hytale off flathub

[fathom pelican]

Even if they don’t make it Linux week one ima jus proton it anyways.

[remote garnet]

shouldn't be hard to beat Minecraft performance anyway, and that's where the bar is at realistically 😂

[vital fjord]

if I heard on one youtube vid correctly they removed almost all libs that made it hard/impossible for game to run on non windows platforms

[sudden dew]

minecraft vulkan update coming soon trust

[remote garnet]

Vulkan update for Java edition?

[vital fjord]

more like minecraft bedrock modding tools

[sudden dew]

i know absolutely nothing about vulkan vs opengl, but mojang has been abstracting all opengl calls, and ive heard the new rendering pipeline being described as "vulkan coded". since they are planning vibrant visuals for java there's a chance it could happen, though when is another question

[remote garnet]

I wonder why they are focusing on this of all things, is this really what people want for Minecraft? last cool thing that was ever added to Minecraft that comes to my mind was pistons... and that is a very long time ago

[stray pasture]

I could see this happening! 😄

[vital fjord]

I think mojang/microsoft wants one thing -> money money money

[sudden dew]

well with apple being a terrible company, they cant really stay on opengl forever

[true dove]

exactly, the game has stagnated, even the mods are not as unique as they once where

[vital fjord]

damn why can't gifs be posted

[sudden dew]

u say this while Create exists

[remote garnet]

you can scratch the "I think" part from that sentence 😛

[remote garnet]

that's what happens when you kneecap your community's modders 😂

[vital fjord]

I mean better to say I think then to be wrong in case they "prove otherwise" IDK how

[gentle gulch]

wait, are you guys able to develop on hytale already?

[sudden dew]

no

[vital fjord]

I wish

[true dove]

Create and what else, a few more and that is it? Just head back to minecraft 1.12.2 modding community, pages full of unique and interesting and in some cases weird mods

[gentle gulch]

aw i see

[vital fjord]

personaly I want create, advanced rocketry thaumcraft and futurepack

[true dove]

Time to flood Create team with millions of letters to port Create to Hytale

[vital fjord]

😈

[true dove]

In fact, I wont even be surprised if some mods will be ported

[vital fjord]

anyway probably bai idea to flood

[shadow iris]

What about SVC or the Life Series mod 😭

[vital fjord]

some probably will be

[west elk]

They're planning to support directional voice chat natively

[remote garnet]

yeah, but realistically though, if you start a business, the ultimate goal of said business is to make money 😛 but often a business is started by somebody with a passion, and somewhere along the way comes somebody who knows how to monetize it properly and make it a money machine, then eventually the people of passion will be left nowhere near the decision making because it often doesn't make short term profits, and whether it makes long term profits is a big unknown (often times these money people are shareholders, whom you are obligated to by law to do your part of their best interest)

[vital fjord]

erm... warframe ?

I would say warframe devs are ones that don't set money as first piority

[true dove]

It depends really. It highly depends on the economy. In capitalist setting the whole point is of course, as you mentioned, growth. Many games where ruined by this. In fact, just looking at steam - some random 2D games cost over 20 euros

Stellaris, has anyone looked at the full price of it? I suggest to just not

[vital fjord]

check it in diffrent currencies... then it becomes bigger

[true dove]

The worst part of it is that pricing is usually determined by graphics, not by actual in game mechanics, content, experience. Or companies put a "premium" label

[vital fjord]

it is funny that I know 1 game i would say is diffrent...

[remote garnet]

there is no rule without an exception, I don't know much about Warframe other than having played it like 2 decades ago or something 😛

but take Hytale as an example, if they can't make it make money, it won't be around for long - so ultimately their goal is to make a business out of it, but that doesn't mean they can't also make a great game while at it

I, and hopefully (most likely tbh) Hytale team, believe in the fact that a great product will automatically just bring in money, without you compromising on your product

but as soon as people who have no idea what the company really stands for or anything steps in on a shareholder side, it can quickly get more ugly - a lot of the time they prefer short term profits, which often lead to lots of bad decisions

then there are the companies like Microsoft, etc. who are "too big to fail", they just do what they do because of reasons (reasons mostly money at the end of the day), and even if people at Microsoft wanted to change things, it's so big now that it takes time and a lot of work (by (too) many people) to actually make meaningful changes

[vital fjord]

well warframe is I think one of not many games where you can get premium currency without spending any real life money and just by playing game

[remote garnet]

yeah, it's ridiculous, but then again - it's similar to dating... you don't go looking for an ugly looking person, you look for someone you find attractive, but in the end you are more likely to end up with someone you wouldn't necessarily have picked out of a crowd if you hadn't already known them

[vital fjord]

even in shop where you can buy stuff thay show you how you can get items for free without paying for them

[remote garnet]

isn't Warframe also free to play?

[vital fjord]

it is

[remote garnet]

it's not unlikely it's one of those "no rule without an exception" cases with Warframe ^^ but what we see for the most part is that big companies will pump out same old crap over and over with some adjustments here and there (Call of Duty and Battlefield for example, which are 2 of the biggest examples)

[true dove]

We are using the wrong discord tab for chatting, but #game-discussion is flooding with spam, can't read a single thing >~>

[vital fjord]

anyway I wonder will there be "offline" servers

[true dove]

Servers can't be offline, if I am not mistaken, but offline play will be there

[kindred crescent]

There won't be a cr*cked client like Minecraft

[vital fjord]

I know some people that will be rather unlikely to buy game atm and might end up getting pira ted version and getting few vir uses

and I hope I won't have to endup cleaning their pcs from viruses

[kindred crescent]

Charge them

$80 starting price

[vital fjord]

wait that's evil

[kindred crescent]

More or less depending on where you live of course

[vital fjord]

charge them and buy game for them... lol

[kindred crescent]

No, that's just the average cost of the service lol (at least where I am)

[vital fjord]

I think I fought about smthg else for moment

[remote garnet]

no actual chatting going on in there - and I guess we are by applying enough goodwill still kind of on topic 😂 the chat evolved from plugins and Java vs other performance stuff, to business aspects, to where we are now 😄

[kindred crescent]

The game isn't out, it's not like there's much use to most channels

[remote garnet]

there most definitely will, just like every other game 😛

[true dove]

Not quite, good money btw, did it once in the past. You don't even need to ask people to pay that much, many of them give sums like that without even questioning it because they don't really understand how much actual work was needed to fix the issue

[remote garnet]

this probably isn't the place to talk about that in though - for Minecraft's part, it was built in to the game afaik, not sure why - perhaps testing purposes

[vital fjord]

personally I always wondered how to monetize server and how to do it fairly...

[kindred crescent]

I meant that there won't be one where they can just go on online servers like Minecraft

It's clearly agains't the ToS

[kindred crescent]

Cosmetics, P2W stuff for single-player games, QoL stuff

[vital fjord]

about yesterday I was fixing via discord pc of somebody who has tlauncher and had 3 antivirus software probably cause that...

[kindred crescent]

I could see for instance selling the possibility for players to use their own custom avatar model

[vital fjord]

and stil ldidn't manage to finish since in bios they have virtualization disabled and wasn't able to startup windows defender

[kindred crescent]

Like, buy it for $10 and you can upload your own model which then updates the mod on the server with all the models and ties the model to your player

[vital fjord]

hm I am more of thinking how to implement payment stuff

[rich solar]

We had something like that in gmod on our server

[true dove]

me, a linux user not having to worry about viruses, because creator of linux kernel deliberately pushes viruses in kernel to increase effectiveness of the system getting rid of viruses by itself

[vital fjord]

?

[true dove]

Linux, ever heared of that? We don't need antivirus

[vital fjord]

I am on bazzite atm

[remote garnet]

there is no right answer to that really, what fairly means is very different from person to person as well

but end of the day, running a server has costs; both in actual costs for hosting, but also time spent maintaining and keeping it online (or perhaps even developing mods/plugins; or even buying them from others)

but there are quite a few questions to ask; like who do you want to keep around on your server? what is your vision/goal? these kinds of questions will likely influence what kind of ways you should monetize a server

personally I generally tend to try and design something where I could see myself being a player of my own, and not pay to win/progress

[vital fjord]

I just wonder hwat you mean kernal having viruses

[true dove]

~>
I meant that Linus Torvalds tests the kernel with various viruses, not that the kernel has viruses

[vital fjord]

aaa ok

I guess I gota find how to charge money... I mean how to let people pay for stuff

[true dove]

If kernel had viruses then 90% of world's computers wouldn't be linux

[silver bronze]

Is there any information on whether Hytale has official Tebex integration or something? Since Simon was talking about not taking a cut from servers for 2 years, that implies they have the ability to take a cut

[remote garnet]

no information on this yet, at least not official

but with the ability to install plugins on servers, nothing is stopping people from not using Tebex anyway

the only thing that can realistically ensure that Hytale takes a cut is a ToS, because then you'll technically be stealing if you try to circumvent that cut

[vital fjord]

what is Tebex ?

[sage lodge]

Just a payment platform targeted at game servers

[silver bronze]

Same service you likely have just used to purchase your Hytale account if you (already) have

[vital fjord]

aaa ok

[silver bronze]

You might know them by their previous name Buycraft

[vital fjord]

wait so there is possibility that each server will have in-game inbuild server store ?

[silver bronze]

We don't really know, what we do know is:

1. Hytale is already working together with Tebex as evident by the fact the account purchases go through them
2. Simon talked about taking a cut of server profit, I have no clue how they would do that without having a built-in store for servers, so it's a possibility for sure

[remote garnet]

some platform that makes it simple for people to monetize their servers afaik - don't know much about it really, but that's what I have gathered

[silver bronze]

Tebex works quite well and they have a free tier, they just take a 5% commission basically

[remote garnet]

if they go the route of requiring all monetization go through Tebex, I'm out tbf 😛

[vital fjord]

from what I see their Products & Solutions includes in-Game or WebStores

[remote garnet]

yeah, they have APIs that people can use to integrate their services

[west elk]

He didn't talk about taking a cut of general server profit, he talked about NOT taking a cut of an unspecified revenue stream of server owners/mod developers.
In 2 years, they might introduce some managed services (payment platform, server discoverability, mod distribution, etc) where they can take a cut, but all he promised is that it won't be for at least 2 years. If they introduce a managed 1st-party feature like this, we will probably also be able to just opt out of using it and implement our own payment platforms

[vital fjord]

I am tempted to make purchasable option that would not give anything and state that you don't get anything aside from supporting server

[silver bronze]

Hmmm that's a way to interpret that message yeah 😅
Didn't think of it like that but alright, that's cool. Honestly I'd use the in-game managed services if there is some sort of advantage to using that over Tebex, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was also offered through Tebex seeing they are already working together (and have been working together for the Hypixel Minecraft server too)

[remote garnet]

yeah, this is the more likely scenario tbh, taking away the ability for those with the know-how and desire to be on their own, is in my opinion at least, not a good move

but enabling people without the know-how and/or desire to be on their own to have similar possibilities without having to do it on their own, makes a lot more sense

[west elk]

Yeah I bet the main advantage it could have is that users don't have to re-input payment information which drastically lowers the bar for spending money

[remote garnet]

what I think about is that Hypixel has been under Microsoft/Mojang thumb, fighting the ToS stuff (although afaik they have their own deal with Microsoft/Mojang), with having experience with that, I believe (and hope) they will know how that feels and want to not be "that guy" to their own customers/players (being us)

[silver bronze]

Oh yeah I'd absolutely use that, shame it's not implemented from day one and existing servers would have to migrate/re-implement parts for that later, but I can understand it's very difficult for them to have that already setup during such an early access phase

[remote garnet]

it would also mean that people without technical ability could more easily start servers and monetize them for example, probably other things than servers too

there are so many things that can generate a profitable business here, I don't think they even know themselves what they are gonna end up doing, because they will first have to see some actual numbers over some time before they will know how to go forward with making money

I guess now they will have some actual numbers, seeing how many people buys the pre-purchases the game, as well as which edition people generally buy

though I'm not sure the sales of the game itself is a long term sustainable business model, so they have to make money somehow in other ways

they having background from Hypixel, they most likely will have official Hytale servers that are monetizes as well, I'd be shocked if they didn't at least

[silver bronze]

It'll be interesting to see how early access the game actually is and how many servers will actually be getting larger playerbases or if they are just developing with smaller teams of interested players. Really depends on the popularity of the game as a whole I assume

[vital fjord]

I wonder for how much stuff will custom plugins be needed like how much will be inbuild... also will there be something like authme on servers.. .for blocking account in case somebody have siblings that use the same pc

[remote garnet]

yeah, Minecraft became something quite a bit bigger than anybody expected it to become I think, now things might be a bit biased because we now know how Minecraft turned out

[remote garnet]

most likely will be very similar to Minecraft, but hopefully easier to integrate into the game in a way that uses less workarounds (like inventory UIs), just lots of commands, or random blocks that look the same as a normal block but has custom functionality attached to it

[vital fjord]

I have 1 friend who I try to convince to get hytale, but well they are waiting to see what tech mods will there be

[remote garnet]

only people this really makes sense for at this time is the people that has the money to support what they believe is a good cause (as in we get a good game and the people behind it are paid for it - win win), as well as those who are in this chat and aim to create things to customize the experience of the game to their liking - such that for example your friend takes an interest in it

[silver bronze]

What kind of tech mods?

[vital fjord]

ae2 and mekanism

and I go for create and advanced rocketry mainly

[true dove]

mekanism, create, ae2 - the holy trinity I always have

[vital fjord]

well rocketry can be skipped

[silver bronze]

Ooooh I see like that kind of tech mods that's neat

[vital fjord]

but I also want thaumcraft

and had sended some other before

[prisma agate]

Yo thaumecraft brings back so much memories, such a cool mod

[empty nest]

Hey yo

[remote garnet]

the game I've enjoyed the most of all time, is most likely Minecraft, but I hardly play it anymore, and probably haven't really played it for about a decade

what I enjoyed most about it was the ability to customize the experience by being able to change things on my own server

I eventually grew a bit disappointed by it not focusing on anything cool, just new adventure stuff - if I wanted an adventure game, I could've just gotten a game that was an adventure game, and was actually better... what I really wanted was more things that could take the thing to the next level (for example more redstone related stuff) or other cool things, such as pistons

new bosses and adventure related things can easily be added by players themselves by adding mods, if the core of the game supported it, thus the game developers don't really need to focus as much on the content of the game itself

but I guess somebody disagreed with me on that, and perhaps they were even right to, but if nothing else, that was my personal desire for the game 😛

[prisma agate]

It'll probably take a few months to create something like create/mek at a good quality tho (bad quality, probably way before)

[true dove]

I would also want origins in Hytale. In some form or another, I always like having a character with unique abilities, environment adaptations

[vital fjord]

I started to dislike mc after java inbuild chat reporting stuff

[prisma agate]

Tha'ts just MS bs u can circuvment it with mods

[vital fjord]

I know

but it still left a bad taste

[true dove]

I played minecraft for like 8 years now.

It was adding and adding and adding and adding things, more and more, but the world remained dead, that is why I stopped liking it.

I want an alive world

[remote garnet]

they just stopped innovating, the real potential with Minecraft came with the ability to customize the experience of it

but there is nothing really quite like it, I guess the closest thing atm is Roblox (though I have no actual experience or first hand knowledge about Roblox)

[remote garnet]

I remember when they added fences 😄 iirc back in 2010 or 2011 haha

[prisma agate]

Microsoft is a corporation that turns ... into ... meme, not really the devs fault, but yea I don't trust MC due to MS

[remote garnet]

the devs are just cogs in a big machine that get told what to do most of the time

[prisma agate]

Yea, u can see April's Fools as a proof, MS doesn't care about that, they get freedom, and they churn out content like crazy

[true dove]

Tech mods only made me question even further what is actually fun for me. I found out that I seek for purpose in what I do and no mod made the world alive, no mod added any purpose to what I do and tech mods for me became just a temporary distraction before realisation that there is nowhere to put all the resources I have produced and gathered

[remote garnet]

I know Notch has said multiple times that he regrets selling Minecraft, but at the time, he felt like he couldn't live up to the community's wishes, and it was a lot of money, so I guess he thuoght "oh well, at least I can go do something else, and maybe they're better off with Microsoft behind the wheel!"

from just running small communities, I know how much impact even a few people can have on my own personal interest in a project, and how much it sometimes takes from me personally to just deal with unnecessary bs

[vital fjord]

roblox kinda had similar ptoblem if not bigger, since they just let Iif I remember correctly predators roam free on website even when they reports

[prisma agate]

Microsoft got scared bcz of the caves and cliffs backslash (which I don't mind, they had to touch very old legacy stuff like world height and world gen) so it makes sense it took them that long, but now Microsoft just forces small updates so there is no over promising

[vital fjord]

just search schlep and you will get Roblox–Schlep controversy

[remote garnet]

that's the only thing I know about Roblox aside from the fact that people supposedly "make their own" game in there, whatever that means xD

[vital fjord]

made some of my own in there, but nothing that ever took off...

[prisma agate]

Almost happened with Riot and Simon, but SImon repurchased it, but Minecraft makes Microsoft too much money and Notch only has money due to MS, so no way he's buying MC back

[true dove]

2010 and 2011 for me feels so long time ago. Sometimes I want to add BCE on each date before 2015

[remote garnet]

yeah, he made a decision he can never come back from, and I'm not sure he would even if he could, unless he could also change what has already happened - because the damage has already been done

[vital fjord]

wait what is chance simon faked early access date ? and might realease it for chrismass ?

[near raptor]

0%

[prisma agate]

-10%

[true dove]

Simon-Christmas conspiracy

[remote garnet]

haha yeah, it's 14-15 years ago by now, I was like 15 at the time 😂 probably about the same age a lot of people in here are today

[near raptor]

In their release date announcement they explained that they would've liked a release earlier, but that reacquiring the game took a bit longer making a pre-Christmas date no longer realistic

[silver cloak]

Well it's not that, generally when you make millions. You can't really work without knowing if the game will survive long term. You have to invest in things YOU can change

Imagine depending on a company that doesn't have first party software support

[true dove]

Will need to build the Simon Church with Simonism as the religion

[grim salmon]

What coding language will the plugins be in?

[stray pasture]

☕

[prisma agate]

Yes but also they have some very shady stuff in their ToS, igonring the arbitration stuff, the 2 main things:

• U don't own the game, u get a license, which they can revoke whenever for whatever reason (would've been fine if it was just a server-wide ban, and u could still play singleplayer)
• U do own your mods/user-generated content, but u give hytale an irrevocable license to do whatever they want with it (publish it, modify it, relicense it, etc)

[remote garnet]

yeah, it's not a simple problem to solve, otherwise people would've just solved it - most people don't do anything with the intention of making something bad deliberately, but because of reasons, it unfortunately is what happens sometimes - the bigger the company, the harder it can be sometimes too; too many people that has to have a say in things, which just ends up taking a lot of time and costing a lot of money, in turn generates a even higher need for money as well - so many things that factor into this

[vital fjord]

what is chance microsoft/Mojang bans hypixel after hytale release ?

[stray pasture]

I wouldn't call any of that shady. Both are standard given it is a platform

Fornite, Roblox, Minecraft.

[prisma agate]

Unlikely they'd ever abuse, but I really don't like to give them an infinite license to my content

[west elk]

0

[remote garnet]

are you talking about MC or Hytale ToS now? (seeing you mentioned Hytale, but what you describe sounds awfully familiar to MC ToS)

[remote garnet]

slim to none

[silver cloak]

jeb said he will play hytale... so none

[remote garnet]

now would be the time to do that I guess, since that's most likely the main source of income that funds Hytale atm I would guess

[vital fjord]

did he say this as signle person or as mojang the company ?

[silver cloak]

Single person

[vital fjord]

so mojang the company might do otherwise I would assume

[silver cloak]

They can't terminate hypixel because they don't break the law

[prisma agate]

Minecraft has that too? Afaik Minecraft doesn't have an irrevocable license to do whatever with my own content? especially the modify part
But that may be bcz of Spigot plugins not considered Minecraft mods

[silver cloak]

They will just get sued and pay millions in damages

[remote garnet]

there is no reason for Microsoft/Mojang to ban Hypixel, it couldn't do them or anyone else anything good - they would probably lose a ton of money doing it even, not to mention the PR shitstorm

[stray pasture]

They do, reason why they are able to make bedrock content that are Java mods

[prisma agate]

They'd get so much backslash, they wouldn't do it

[vital fjord]

I think misrosoft can aford it...

[near raptor]

A little competition for Minecraft, which has dominated in its sector, cant hurt. Maybe the release of Hytale incentives Mojang to also be a bit more daring and innovative.

[vital fjord]

I don't want t obe negative... but I feel like possibility ain't 0

[silver cloak]

Minecraft is the #1 best selling game of all time. Do you really think they care about a game selling 5 to 10m units?

[vital fjord]

yes

[prisma agate]

A ton of people play on Hypixel (especially skyblock and stuff), if they ban it, it'd just make people more fed up, and Hey look there is this new Minecraft-like game that just released, let me just play that

[stray pasture]

I mean, Hypixel is also a partnered server - I am sure they are in communication, plus that would be a nasty play by Mojang. Not even competing against Minecraft, they still own their own little domain

[remote garnet]

U do own your mods/user-generated content, but u give hytale an irrevocable license to do whatever they want with it (publish it, modify it, relicense it, etc)
it's kinda hard to not have that in the ToS, otherwise I could make mods and effectively gatekeep the game developers themselves from making certain content for their own game, because I have a mod that already does it

though it does leave the door open to outright steal my mod too, and legally at that - ultimately doesn't make it theft 😛

[near raptor]

Besides, Hytale isn't really encroaching the Bedrock ecosystem on consoles and mobile phones, which is Mojang's real money machine

[remote garnet]

even if it was, the only real ways to solve that from their side would be to have the better product or to just buy Hytale from Simon form an outrageous amount of money

[silver cloak]

Mojang has no ground to terminate hypixel

[true dove]

I don't think Simon would sell it for any price

[prisma agate]

I don't think it prevents them from adding their own content? bcz if I add a cow monster, I am not able to copyright the concept of a "cow monster", so they can add their own, as long as it isn't my actual mod or my actual textures

[silver cloak]

I would probably say it's for modders like "Aether for Minecraft".

[remote garnet]

I'm no legal expert, but if they did, I'm fairly sure they could have a legal case on their hands too 😛 because sabotaging someone else just to stop them from competing with you, is afaik illegal - and Hytale launching soon would likely be evidence enough that it was done for that reason 😂

but even without considering that side of things, Hypixel probably does generate Mojang a decent amount of money anyway

[silver cloak]

Yeah I personally bought minecraft just to play on hypixel

[prisma agate]

So? having an aether mod is not copyrighted, stealing all the mechanics and making it basically the same mod, is, so as long as it's not an exact copy, they can add it

[remote garnet]

but you could argue the case that they stole your mod, and they didn't anywhere in the ToS say that they could take your mod and make it their own - even if it's just bs, now they have to deal with this noise on top of everything else

so from a business standpoint, it's better to just make sure you're covered in as many areas as possible

[silver cloak]

Good thing : For now they are a moral company
Bad thing : Considering they have the rights to everyone's work, if leadership changes. We are cooked

Double edged knife

[true dove]

I think it is more important to look at licensing of the project (in this case a mod) and capabilities of the owner of that mod to enforce that license.

[prisma agate]

Yea and I should be able to do that, it's like the palworld/pokemon lawsuit, if it's too similar, I should be able to sue them, but then if a judge/jury decides it's different enough and I don't own that concept, then they win anyways

[remote garnet]

hypotethically speaking; Microsoft made a mod for Hytale they knew Hytale would want to make into the core game

Microsoft know it's a lost legal battle, but not before Hytale is bankrupt

problem solved!

is it a realistic scenario? probably not, but is it plausible? absolutely! perhaps not to this extent though, but legal noise costs so much time and moeny to deal with, which does often mean compromises on the product's quality because of split attention - ultimately perhaps also motivation to go forward with your visions

[prisma agate]

Yes but they won't have giant corpos making mods for them, they'd have solo devs with the exact opposite case, so they protect themselves against poor devs, and the poor devs can't do much if they steal their mods

[remote garnet]

that makes no sense for me as a business to let my players prevent me from making the content I want to make in my own game, because someone else made that content already

in some cases, some modders could also end up making something parallel to Hytale making something, and both ended up being very similar, but the mod released a little bit before the official - now you have a potential legal case on your hands

[plain canyon]

Parallel*

[remote garnet]

if I was a giant corpo that saw it as a possible way to get rid of an actual competitor, and I had no morals, I would consider that route if it meant me making more money

and we do already know that business and morals don't really go together (hence why we have laws, especially consumer protection laws)

[plain canyon]

You aren't a giant corporation.

[remote garnet]

I said literally exactly that, what point are you trying to make?

[prisma agate]

But the same issue exists between devs-to-devs, if I made a mod and u make a similar mod, then can I sue you? probably no if it's different enough and the concept isn't unique enough to copyright (if it is my own IP then yes I can sue you), so same case with Hytale, I can't sue them unless I have the IP of the content, which I don't, and if I do create my own IP, then I'd 100% not want them to add it, that'd be straight up stealing

[plain canyon]

That you don't have an LLC or a business that makes revenue.

[remote garnet]

what do you know about that anyway? 😉 either way that has nothing to do with the conversation, because I was speaking in hypotheticals

if you don't understand this, you and I have nothing further to talk about

[plain canyon]

Trust and S Corp. : )

[remote garnet]

you can if your mod's code is licensed and I stole your code, because I don't own the right to your mod, other than using it for myself, unlike Hytale

now the real question is what the real reason Hytale has it in their ToS is - doesn't really matter what we conclude in here, because it ultimately is a "trust me bro" kind of case (if anyone was around for that LTT drama around the "trust me bro" warranty) 😛

all I was arguing is potential reasons why someone might want these things in their ToS

[plain canyon]

Here I took your username, lmk if you want to buy it from me.

Nozemi

Change capitalization
Edition:
Standard
Upgrade
Created:
December 13, 2025 at 14:40

[remote garnet]

I'm good lol

[near raptor]

Reselling of accounts is forbidden.

[plain canyon]

I was only joking

[remote garnet]

already have a name for my account ^^

[plain canyon]

I'll simply pretend to be them and create a mod that'll get a MORBILLION dollars

[remote garnet]

idk what you're getting at here lol, all I was trying to do is make an argument about potential reasons for including something like this in their ToS

all you've done so far is try to annoy me 😂

[plain canyon]

My point is I took your name and don't plan on selling it

[remote garnet]

fine with me, if you want to have my name on an account 😂

[plain canyon]

Ok

[prisma agate]

Their lawyer put it in the ToS to avoid as many lawsuits as possible (see the arbitration clause), what I am arguing for is that it should be removed, and the counter argument of "but then they can't add X content" is just false

If someone yoinks my actual code, then yes I'd have issue with that (same with EXACT texture/assets), and if Hytale does it, I'd still have an issue with that for stealing my OWN creation, if someone (or Hytale) recreates their own similar thing, then I can't do much legally, unless it was my IP, and if it was my IP, then I don't want to give Hytale rights to it

Imagine I make some fancy super heros with backstories or whatever and create a mod for that in Hytale, there is no reason for Hytale to "let's add these exact superheroes he created", that'd be infringing my IP, which is not ok

So there is no case for reasonably preventing them from adding content, the only thing it does is prevent some lawsuits in the gray area of u just added something that is very similar to what I added (like palworld/pokemon, in which case it should go to court to decide who is right/wrong), and those gray areas are very unlikely, bcz normal people usually don't have the budget to sue a company

[plain canyon]

You aren't thinking from a shareholder's point of view.

[near raptor]

Luckily Hypixel Studios isn't a publicly traded company with shareholders that only care about profits

[prisma agate]

Why would I do that? Hytale doesn't think that way either, Simon clearly didn't do this to profit

[plain canyon]

To personally finance for the next 10 years the ownership was split with Simon having vote. The other names on that LLC formation also have spent money.

Do you think they also don't want to profit?

[remote garnet]

yeah, I personally agree with you, but I'm also not a business owner - knowing what kind of crazy cases has taken place throughout history, I want to leave as little as possible up to the faith of others decisions

but end of the day, regardless of them having it in the ToS or not, it doesn't change much, because as you said, a person doesn't have the budget to sue a company anyway

and if they start to outright steal mods, it would likely be PR backlash from it, if all they did was just take someone's mod and incorporate it into the game, changing nothing

[remote garnet]

he also didn't do this to run out of money, but it's not in our interest for him (or Hytale) to run out of money either

so if we don't trust that they will do what's right, despite what's in the ToS, why are we here in the first place?

I would also not make mods for the sole purpose of making money from them, so if Hytale wanted to incorporate my mod in the main game, it would be fine by me - although if they outright took my code and assets without changing anything, while it being a compliment, it would kinda be a bummer at the same time

end of the day it's not really any easy solution when it comes to any legal stuff, there has to be compromises somewhere

[kindred crescent]

Simon has said he'd pay for mods and offer hiring the dev(s)

[hidden jasper]

They didn't do this for profit? They may not say it, but it was clearly profitable business from the start, that does not mean they are not enjoying the journey, I believe they did it also because they want players to have the game and gain respect and feel good about it.. but there's no way it wont be profitable, you would have to mismanage it very badly..

Also right from the start we know the game will cost some money, and they plan to take 20% cut from every server.. so like how in what universe this wouldn't be profitable.. the 20% cut is profitable so much, that the game could be basically free - which would be better decision, because there would be more players, since again half of Europe will have cra*ked version.

[kindred crescent]

The 20% cut is a worst case scenario. They won't take anything for the first two years

[remote garnet]

Also right from the start we know the game will cost some money, and they plan to take 20% cut from every server.. so like how in what universe this wouldn't be profitable.. the 20% cut is profitable so much, that the game could be basically free - which would be better decision, because there would be more players, since again half of Europe will have cra*ked version.
if that is the route they take, it will likely mean that the game is free, heck for good PR they might even refund anybody who bought the game, because at this point they could probably afford it (assuming it takes off to anywhere near as much as Minecraft did)

[hidden jasper]

They could do it from the start honestly, and make the game free.. because I can already see that no server in Czechia/Slovakia will support paid version, I own one czech/slovak serverlist with 1000+ minecraft servers and not single one of them is for players that have bought MC, all of them are war*z.

[remote garnet]

taking a 20% cut from me having a server isn't really all that bad either, the alternative would be Minecraft or making something of my own, which both come with their own set of drawbacks

[kindred crescent]

They might also just take 5% or even like 1%

We don't know 🙂
We also don't know what service they would offer

[plain canyon]

Cosmetics, overriding them to fit the look of the server as the FAQ stated on December 3rd.

[remote garnet]

yeah, in either case I'm not in this to make any money anyway, so to me personally it doesn't make much of a difference anyway - and in the event I were to make money even remotely close to a significant amount, I wouldn't really mind the 20% cut if worst came to worst

after all, I've been provided a platform to make money off of free of charge (well, I paid the price of the game itself), and I spent time to develop plugins/mods possibly, but I didn't make the core game itself, and also the community that comes with it - all I have to do is stand out from the other servers

if I made my own game, it would mean making those same plugins/mods, but also the game's core and everything, would certainly cost way more than 20% cut for a very long time, if I could even manage to make it profitable

[hidden jasper]

Depends on their moral compass, but it will be likely something closer to 20%, because there would be no reason not to do it.. which is still OK I guess, but the higher the number, the higher the chance that server owners come together and create it's own open-source Hytale clone, which was exactly what Hypixel did to Mojang after they enforced EULA and they lost 80% of the revenue.

[kindred crescent]

because there would be no reason not to do it.
There would be a reason not to do it: money is tight on servers' end

[remote garnet]

it depends on a lot of things; how much profit they make outside of that cut, how much money they need to make their visions a reality, how much money they want because of, well, reasons! and lastly what they can get away with without losing playerbase

it's gonna be a decision that factor in things like that to a balance that makes sense to those who make these decisions, so it can definitely vary in who wins and how much they win

but a long term healthy product, is one where your customers are happy with said product, so they get return customers, without that, you don't really have a product either

[sacred tulip]

Emphasis on revenue because 80% of revenue, just not profit, is tough

[remote garnet]

in an ideal world, they would probably like to make that cut based on profit, but in a realistic scenario, there is just no way to actually do that

whether I rent your server farm for 100x its price for example, while you rent my developer team for 100x their price, we'd effectively manufacture costs that aren't real, but appear real

possibly not good examples, just examples to make a point

not sure if this is what you were getting at though fwiw

[plain canyon]

They would not. They would calculate CM not the full revenue.

[remote garnet]

Idk much about it tbf, I just know basing it on profits alone is gonna be hard

[hidden jasper]

and lastly what they can get away with without losing playerbase
Maybe this will be the most important thing, because we can only guess.. what we know is that years ago Simon sold the game to Riot for millions, and we all know Riot and what the game would look like if they finished it, and how quickly it would vanish. Also they are posting updates on a social network (x) owned by a n*zi who supports dictators and far-right movements in EU, so like so far it looks like their "moral compass" is doing 180, but I honestly hope they make decisions based on what's good for everyone, not based on what they can get away with.

[plain canyon]

You can't calculate it based on revenue because there are 3 products for prepurchase and cosmetics which we can't purchase yet.

You would need to calculate each contribution margin per product and make a decision off of that.

[plain canyon]

That's so true we shouldn't be passive, waiting for hytale like last time and demand it. Especially for unethical crap

[remote garnet]

oh you're talking about the decision on how big of a cut to take from servers? not what they base the cut off of?

[plain canyon]

Server cosmetics is subject to that cut.

[remote garnet]

yeah

that makes sense tbf, it's not sustainable to individually check what each server owner makes, you'll most likely have to derive it from numbers generated in your own system

[remote garnet]

well, lots of people post on various platforms, at the end of the day, if I was a business, I would post on the platforms that reached the biggest amount of potential players - unless the platform was proven to be tied to serious illegal activities, then I would perhaps consider to avoid it - but then again it would perhaps not be the right platform to market a game on either, at least not one that I would make 😛

[hidden jasper]

unless the platform was proven to be tied to serious illegal activities
Well twitter was bought with money from Russian oligarchs that helped Musk to liquidate and in return they wanted to boost far right propaganda, so there is that..

[remote garnet]

yeah, but none of this really conclude much about users on the platform

personally I haven't paid attention at all, but I also don't use X-Twitter

[hidden jasper]

And I'm not saying they support such things by using it, maybe they are also not aware or live in an illusion from the popular podcast "intellectuals" who thinks how Musk is genius.. and also lot of companies are using X, it's just I don't expect to have moral compass from a lot of companies.

[tired arrow]

Factions is gonna go hard on here

[remote garnet]

all I know for sure is that Musk has done something right 😛 further than that I don't know anything other than him making a clown of himself from time to time, but as do I and most other people - I don't have the best impression of him as of late, but more importantly I have no idea to what extent he deserves credit for his and his business success

[hidden jasper]

He can sure motivate people very well, so he attracted very smart people around him.. but that's not important :D this would be long discussion.. I take posting on X just as necessary evil, because of that game will gain more traction, so in the end it could be cheaper.

[remote garnet]

if I didn't personally believe the team behind Hytale had the right intentions, I wouldn't be here, and I don't really want to base my decisions on speculation either - either I trust something or I don't

would I base my future on living off of Hytale? no, most definitely not, we don't know nearly enough yet, but would I trust that it's worth paying the pre-purchase price for? yeah, I do, because I have no real reason not to at this point in time

and more importantly, I wanna have fun making my own server, mostly for myself and friends to play on

[kindred crescent]

Well, starting with rich parents helps a lot

[remote garnet]

sure, being born smarter than the average person can also help a lot

being born with a desire to make money more than a desire to be moral can also help a lot

many things do in fact help a lot tbf, but everything comes at a cost of something else

[hidden jasper]

Same applies for me, I already bought the game and I have server hardware ready (bought on black friday).. I'm happy to explore server API and can't wait since I start writing plugins, which could be advantage against other servers, because most server I know are just downloading and configuring plugins, rarely I see something original.

Although I want most of my plugins to be open source

[remote garnet]

Linux is probably a good example to use, Linus Torvalds no doubts made something really good, but him alone wouldn't be enough to make Linux what it is today - but he did provide a solid foundation for people to build on top of

but how much he can take credit for what Linux is today, idk, but from my impression, he doesn't really take that much credit for it either - he just wants to develop his own kernels for it 😂

[remote garnet]

yeah, I was actually wanting to make a Minecraft server, then Hytale happened, then Hytale didn't happen, now Hytale is happening again 😂

my idea was to make plugins and stuff that made everything feel more consistent than the average server that just downloaded all kinds of random plugins and barely had a functional website

the idea wasn't really to make a big business out of it, but if that happened, then it happened, the only goal was to have fun with it

[hidden jasper]

I had MC server from 2012 to 2024.. once with 500 online players, I also thought I was done after that I heard Hytale is cancelled, because I had plan on making Hytale server, since I'm no longer interested in MC

[remote garnet]

yeah, I used to run a Minecraft server with a friend, think it was from like 2011/2012 to like 2015/2016, we peaked at around 60 players online and had 20+ players online at all times iirc, so it was by no means a big server, but it was big enough to have potential to make some money at least - if not enough to live off of, at least enough to get some extra pocket change 😛

we never monetized it though, we didn't really think much of it at the time, nor did we have the know-how to get it done even if we wanted to, and I didn't really think to look into it either

[silver cloak]

I fell to my knees when I saw the unfortunate news

[remote garnet]

I kinda saw it not going anywhere when they decided to do a complete engine rewrite tbh, and when they did it the second time, I completely gave up, some time later, we get the news that it's now cancelled 😅

[silver cloak]

I wonder what dummy decided to rework the engine

[remote garnet]

they had the hype, but lost the hype due to taking way too long, and effectively killed the game

[silver cloak]

Like it seems very complex with java already. Why rework it and make it work cross platform?

[hidden jasper]

I monetized server in the early days, so I made some money to start my life after 18 (like to pay a few months of rent :D), but after that I didn't try to monetize it again and I paid it out of pocket for a 6 years and then closed it since it was draining when it took me a day to investigate and fix some dupes.. and it was no longer worth it because I have demanding job

[silver cloak]

It was designed for failure. Tried to fly too close to the sun

[remote garnet]

they possibly have more experienced developers, and most definitely bigger budget and bigger team, and perhaps their devs have more experience in other areas than C#/Java, so it made more sense

and with them being a bigger company and more budget, they perhaps wanted to make something more "up to par" with their other games

but then imo, they failed to realize that Minecraft happened, and Minecraft is relatively unchanged since it came out over a decade ago 😂

[silver cloak]

🙏 Wish my next hytale projects become monetized so I can live from it

Though I am doing it for the content not the monetary return. But it would be lovely to make sum 😭

[remote garnet]

yeah, that was effectively the end of my Minecraft server career as well; my irl job

when I was just in highscool, it wasn't as much of a problem spending my spare time doing it, but having an actual job makes for a lot less spare time 😛

[silver cloak]

Doubtful they had "more experienced devs" considering they didn't deliver anything in the span of 5 years

[hidden jasper]

You can have best devs in a world, but when you have manager who tells you to rewrite engine to multiplatform, there is little you can do about this.

[silver cloak]

I am really hopping the server API is smooth as f and let us create awesome things without needed high iq

[remote garnet]

I don't know anything about the developers on either side, but there are many reasons things turn out the way they do, and it was probably not on the developers - it was probably some manager who made some decisions and the developers just had to do what they were paid to do 😂

[silver cloak]

Yeah 100% not a dev issue

But again, an experienced team would tell you that it's not possible in the timeframe that you want

Unless they wanted yes men (probably the case the project failed)

[remote garnet]

my guess is that someone did tell them that, but nobody wanted to listen 😂

[silver cloak]

Yeah, I mean did see noxy was making 500k a year. So it's probably mismanagement of funds

[near raptor]

There are some posts by ex-Hytale staff when the announcement that the game was cancelled was published.

They give some insight into the years during engine rewrite

[silver cloak]

I've read some of their logs and they were absurd really

[kindred crescent]

Apparently very toxic (just giving additionnal context)

[remote garnet]

yeah, and when the hype died, they probably couldn't justify to the shareholders spending that much money on something that's effectively dead

[silver cloak]

Yeah, they had spent 80 million minimum and where requesting 100m + to continue

They tried to change the world overnight but forgot that the only way to change it is step by step

[remote garnet]

I actually interviewed for a job at Hytale 😛 I didn't make it into 2nd round of interviews though, but I also have 0 experience with game dev, and not an extraordinary amount of experience with other development either, especially not at the time (was back in 2021 I think)

[hidden jasper]

But I still wonder how engine rewrite could take years.. I thought the game logic is running on a Java server internally, so your game logic stays intact, you just do the user interface for displaying things.. like I thought you won't change how map is serialized on the disk etc., "just" the graphic

[tepid blade]

Is mining a thing in Hytale?

[kindred crescent]

The whole engine, not just parts of it

[silver cloak]

yes

[kindred crescent]

Engines take a lot of time to create

[near raptor]

It wasn't just an engine rewrite, it was also adding cross-platform support, so probably very tough requirements for the new engine

[hidden jasper]

So even server part? Because that part is in Java, separated from the UI engine.

[silver cloak]

Yeah but we are talking about a voxel engine here. Not some gta 6 type graphics that allows you to mod the whole game

[tepid blade]

I want to contact the studio

[near raptor]

I think the server part was also up for rewrite, that was the whole Luau thing

[remote garnet]

wasn't it first engine rewrite, then another part or full rewrite to make it cross-platform support?

[kindred crescent]

Yes even the server part

[silver cloak]

Can't they just broadcast packets to a server and translate them via a client?

[remote garnet]

they can, but I wouldn't want to maintain a full separate game client for every platform, that would be a nightmare to make consistent accross platforms

[hidden jasper]

Well the server part alone could take years.. which is weird.. because server part is in Java, which is multiplatform

[silver cloak]

What exactly is cross platform support other than that man

[kindred crescent]

The C# client at the time was not cross-platform

[silver cloak]

Like it doesn't seem to me like some insane thing that takes half a decade to code

[near raptor]

The goal was not to have people use Java, it was to have a whole scripting system similar to Bedrock edition (but better, probably)

[kindred crescent]

It was made with .NET Framework 4.7.2 and used windows-only libraries (on top of .NET Framework being windows only)

[near raptor]

Though outside of technical implementation, there was also infinite scope creep. It also sounded like there was a lot of mismanagement and lack of motivation among the team due to ideas being constantly shot down by leadership.

And bigger teams tend to move slower

[remote garnet]

yeah, I think things just added up and ulimately killed the project

[stable tapir]

is there already any info about creating for hytale?

[remote garnet]

yeah, they posted stuff on the blog about it

[near raptor]

There is a blog post about modding on the hytale website

[hidden jasper]

What Riot didn't understand is that Hytale will be played by the same community that played Minecraft, which started as PC-only game.. so they shouldn't care about multiplatform, and they could always rewrite engine later with separated team and keep the server part in java, so plugins/mods still work between engines

[stable tapir]

hytale modding strategy and status blog you mean?

[near raptor]

Hm, Riot might have understood and that also prompted the engine rewrite. They might have wanted more than just the Minecraft community

[remote garnet]

problem with that is then the game would be released and need maintenance, effectively requiring them to have a separate team that was writing the new engine alongside the current game, and scope creep as the live game grew

I don't think it was an easy decision to make at all really, it might to them have been a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" and end of day they just have to go with what they thought was least reckless

[near raptor]

Riot also don't launch games that they wouldn't support much or kill off quickly. They don't release games often, but when they do, it is often a fully fledged product with a long term commitment behind it. Launching an unstable Hytale (or an incomplete Hytale for that matter) might have been a no-go in their books.

[silver cloak]

Minecraft is the #1 best selling game in the world 😭 wdym more than that

There's no more

[near raptor]

Well, I meant Java Edition community. They would have wanted something like Bedrock edition, aka crossplatform

[silver cloak]

Def the case

Could also be the fact the economy tanked, so riot stopped the funding to focus on other projects

They are working on their own mmo rpg afterall

[near raptor]

Yeah the games industry in general has been doing pretty poorly after Covid stopped being a thing and people went back to their "normal" life

[silver cloak]

Yeah and hytale was purchased during covid mania

Tons of reasons but we will never know...

I am glad we are here today... able to buy the game and play!

[sharp lake]

A pandemic is among the few things that could boost your sales by a lot in the home entertainment industry lol

[near raptor]

Minecraft also had a huge glow-up during Covid

[kindred crescent]

Imagine if they had just released in 2020 before Riot acquisition

Then again, we wouldn't have the current combat and such

And who knows who had control over the game back then

[sharp lake]

We don't even have the current combat 😂😂 it's not current yet

[kindred crescent]

There were investors and such

[kindred crescent]

I mean, we have the gameplay video 😛

[sharp lake]

I think we're better off than we were, because of the promise of no investors

We have 10 years now, and they're a pure intentioned 10
Not under stockholder obligation or anything like that

[gleaming jackal]

Hi, about the start of hytale, someone is going to buy a host server? i'm a game dev so i know about 2D sprites, modeling, animation and programming as well, so i going want to start hard making content for the server i'm going to in. Preferably on servers hosted in Latin America, the United States, Canada, or Europe.

[hidden jasper]

I have some dedicated servers in Canada and I have a lot of experience with programming, so I will be doing server network if u want to join, or if u want your own server I could share some of the hardware, I will have tens of GB ram free so we could negotiate some price that's better than some hosting providers (ovh game anti-ddos included).

When I had minecraft servers I had minigames, survival and creative.. and all the minigames server had were programmed by me from scratch (skywars, bedwars, oneshot, murdermystery).. I have also open-source framework I build my games in at github(dot)com/MinecordNetwork/Gamesys, in that github organisation there is also open-sourced OneShot and MurderMystery I wrote

[visual zinc]

I know that a partnership with some hosts has already been announced for the creation of servers on the 1st, but could any dev help us create an egg for pterodactyl and pelican?

[rich solar]

Worse case just use the generic java egg

[west elk]

I bet it will be on the official eggs repo pretty much immediately but yeah the generic java egg will work too

[rich solar]

Parker/Pelican supposedly will have it ready day1. So worse worse case just wait a bit. But generic java egg is all you need with 25 yolk

[gleaming jackal]

i send you a DM.

[cerulean belfry]

has anyone heard if we will be able to add new zones with the modding tools at launch? I have spent an incredibly unhealthy amount of time, driven by neurodivergent special interest and ADHD hyperfocus, writing 15k+ lines of code for a Minecraft mod I never ended up releasing that is basically meant to add a new zone (it wasn't modelled directly after Hytale, but I now realise that's exactly the concept I was going for) haha. now I'm thinking I'd love to give it another go in Hytale (hopefully less code required, I already see things just in the trailer that I could reuse that I had to implement from scratch in Minecraft... the assets though, oof, I was proud of my improvements over time in just 16x scale, Hytale will surely test my artistic talent!).

basically my country, an island country, has a unique and isolated ecosystem and native culture, so a zone works perfectly to represent it - different biomes, but all with things in common, and otherwise having different animals and plants and people to the rest of the world.

(leave ping on if you reply, I don't wanna miss it)

[west elk]

No specific info on that, but they have said that the world generators will be very customizable

[gleaming jackal]

I would love to work with you creating content for a server, that would be great.

[cerulean belfry]

at the moment I think I'll mainly just be focusing on my mod idea working on the native environment of Aotearoa (NZ), adding animals like kākāpō, kiwi, moa, Haast's eagle, wētā, pūkeko, etc. and environments from Aotearoa like native forest and wetlands and fjords, but I can keep it in mind 💚

[fathom pelican]

I wanna be positive. But as Covid taught the world. A lot can happen in 10 years. Simon might realize he wants to start a new family with Tibetan monks and give up development

[gleaming jackal]

Seems good, It would be nice to see it in Hytale. If you want add me to friends and we can discuss about content creation for hytale later, developing a well-made server requires talented people. 👍

[stray pasture]

Hey that could be next year!

[cerulean belfry]

now you're making me want to go start a family with a handsome Tibetan monk /lh

[errant condor]

how will modding work in hytale ? will mods be auto-downloaded when joining a server, or will they need to be downloaded client-side

[stray pasture]

Auto downloaded. Read their blog first on the Plugin Development

[errant condor]

thx

[stray pasture]

hytale(dot)com/news/2025/11/hytale-modding-strategy-and-status

[tired arrow]

What servers is everyone planning on designing without giving away your ideas of course

[rich solar]

Custom SMP style with sub servers that will be diverse different "games"

[warm ledge]

YO - anyone here have any insights into what the stability of the HyTale server runtime will be vs active player count? E.g when might I be looking to scale-up vs keep mono

[floral pecan]

it could support like ~200 - ~400 players with just 8GB RAM and a 8 cores of 3950X, 100% ||(i just made this up)||

[warm ledge]

I hope you spill your next coffee

[stray pasture]

I was gonna say - Where did these wild numbers come from. 😂

[floral pecan]

jokes on you, coffee gives me tummy ache

[stray pasture]

With 56 players and 3000 NPC it starts to "misbehave"

[warm ledge]

Source?

[stray pasture]

Silkey

[warm ledge]

Thx babe

[stray pasture]

Oh god, now I wish I gave a sarcastic response

[sacred tulip]

So probably no main Hypixel server at launch

[floral pecan]

yes, 100%, actually with 4 game modes

||(i made that up again)||

[stray pasture]

Hey, anyime sombody asks about docs or asks a question that was answered two messages up can you just do this?

[floral pecan]

OH SHOOT I DIDNT REALIZE I WAS IN AN ACTUAL INFORMATIVE CHANNEL LOL

[stray pasture]

Likely not, they did state there will be something, but I doubt day 1

[floral pecan]

sorryyyy i thought this was something like general

[stray pasture]

Well it hasn't been for like 2 weeks!

[floral pecan]

lol i'm not active here, I just came to see whats up

[stray pasture]

Welp you plan on developing anything anyway? 😄 - I don't I just enjoy sitting in here answering the same 3 questions 3000 times a day.

[floral pecan]

yup, I'd like to transition from a MC server to a Hytale server

and I develop plugins for my own usage so yeah, I kinda need to know whats up

[stray pasture]

Awesome! Cool! Welp join the rest of us! 😄

[rose atlas]

java.

[floral pecan]

java.

[stray pasture]

java.

[rich solar]

Java

[floral pecan]

java.

[cerulean belfry]

ahhh, yes, resigning myself to more Java, heh :p who knows, maybe Kotlin will work and I'll be able to try that language out for at least a bit of variety

[stray pasture]

I am just waiting till I or somebody makes C# bindings

[cerulean belfry]

honestly I just want more syntactic sugar for it to feel different 😂 like enrichment for a zoo animal (I am the zoo animal)

my brain can only do so much Java before going numb

like I don't even care about any valid complaints about Java as a language anymore, I just want a change of scenery

[floral pecan]

make a LLM in python that codes java for you

[formal burrow]

just use unsloth on something that you can run, use unsloth to train the AI

[green atlas]

Anyone know what specs a hytale server would need

[west elk]

no, they haven't published data on that

[green atlas]

heck, I want to get my VM ready so on day 1 my server is ready

[neon tree]

Mostlikely windows and Linux support for the server, mostlikely will expect same way as Minecraft

[west elk]

yeah it'll run on Java 25

[cerulean belfry]

I'd rather get a time machine and employ 9 year old me learning Java for the first time than ever use Python or an LLM 😂 /lh (light-hearted)

[sacred tulip]

I just used cursor to create a script for checking availability of usernames from file

First try it worked

Faster than I would have been able to type it

Usually I don't like using AI but in this case it was useful for a one off task

[raven pivot]

will we be able to create our own servers? or will we need a host to create servers?

[rose atlas]

You can host your own servers similar to how minecraft is.. they'll provide server files for us.

[raven pivot]

thats great news, thank you 😄

[warped pollen]

If anyone is interested in playing a day 1 anarchy server, dm me 🙂

[cursive bramble]

need some help clearing stuff up, on a blog post back in november they said there would be no scripting at all in favor of visual nodes, but now i'm reading about java stuff? are they treating core server stuff differently than server gameplay additions? the line is kind of blurry

[sturdy siren]

Java for server-side development. Like making a command do something. You can add new elements to the game using the other method.

[stray pasture]

We dont actually know either. So far very little to no info

[sacred tulip]

Yes definitely

[cursive bramble]

i find it kind of funny how they criticize having to juggle two languages with scripting languages, but then still make you juggle java and visual scripting

[kindred crescent]

Uh? You can stick to one only

Visual scripting is an easy method for non developers.

[cursive bramble]

but if you're developing both server plugins and stuff that needs to run on the client, you need to use both

[kindred crescent]

Uh?

There are no client mods, only server.

The nodes are just a nice interface/façade for the Java code. If you know Java, you can just do Java code.

[cursive bramble]

when you actually get into the details, things will need to interact on the client, according to a q&a a few weeks ago that's what visual scripting was introduced for

[kindred crescent]

Where do you see that?

[cursive bramble]

ctrl f messages from Slikey and look for "q&a"

Slikey (Tech Director): You will NOT download code. We want to NOT expose our community to "remote code execution" exploits. It is sandboxed. Right now all you download is configuration and assets. We plan to resolve some of this using visual scripts which is fully sandboxed.

[kindred crescent]

Yeah I see. But with the question in context, it's not exactly clear to me whether there will be code on the client

Considering we can make our own nodes, it would go agains't the remote code execution concern it answers to. Although maybe they will allow some level of scripting for the client for predictions and stuff

But then again, to the original point, maintaining a scripting language on top of java is different from a node graph

[cursive bramble]

i'm guessing there's gonna be some protocol to read from the server what nodes are available, and when the client has that node invoked then the server sends down the corresponding response

[kindred crescent]

Maybe

Really the biggest problem about mods right now is, in my opinion, how the prediction stuff will work

But just having Java + visual scripting via nodes is different from having Java + scripting language

I see the visual scripting as more of a modding tool for non-programmers than an actual language.

Because utlimately, the nodes execute the Java code created by the programmers

[cursive bramble]

what do you mean by prediction?

[kindred crescent]

Client side prediction is a technique to make the game feel more responsive.
Basically, let's say you have a mod that opens a new UI when you click on object X.
If the mod is on the client, this happens instantly.
If the mod is on the server (which is the case with Hytale), then the code needs to do a roundtrip to the server which has latency (ping). So if you have a high ping, you will see the "lag" when the UI opens.

Client prediction is to basically let the client open the menu without the server having "said" to open it yet.

[stray pasture]

If an ECS is used this wont be an issue. They give you the components, those the client can predict and server can reconcile. This does solve that issue.

[kindred crescent]

Uh?

[cursive bramble]

i don't think they're taking server-first this literally

[kindred crescent]

I'm not sure to understand 100% sorry

[kindred crescent]

I think they are 😛
But yes, there are assets that are on the client. For instance, mob behaviours are in JSON if I recall correctly. Those can be sent to the client and be interpreted from the client correctly

[cursive bramble]

i'm pretty sure they'll have a traditional server-client architecture, the client part will just be more locked down but it will still be as responsive as any other game client

[sacred tulip]

Client movement and perspective should not be changeable by server plugins

It should be consistent across servers

How will anticheat work without this

[cursive bramble]

movement shouldn't be changed by server plugins? that would ruin so many potential custom gamemodes

[kindred crescent]

What do you mean? First of all, there is no anti-cheat. Second of all, we have already seen those can be changed in the trailer

I'm just waiting for a Assassin's Creed like parkour mod 😛

[stray pasture]

No your good!

If I make a anything using siad ECS than I use their fundamental system that by default has their networking tied. This is the benefit to an ECS as it basically is as primitive as you can get. You assembly this primitives into your vision

You want to make a glider? Create an entity with a transform component, that already has the movement and replication and prediction logic. Client and server understand this. (Making your own primitives/"systems or compnents" is where it gets wonky.

This is a solution to that problem. It may not be theirs though.

[kindred crescent]

How does that apply to the menu example I gave?

Like, how would the client know to check if the player is allowed to open the menu?

[stray pasture]

It doesn't. Menus dont need high response. That is client displayed server validated.

[kindred crescent]

Although at that point it would need a roundtrip for sure, uh

We'll see 🙂

[cursive bramble]

the visual nodes will probably have stuff for this, like if you've ever used blender nodes

[kindred crescent]

But I think I get your ECS thing now

[stray pasture]

Server doesnt open my menu, I open my menu. It just checks for that key press, its an event.

[stray pasture]

Visual programming stuff is stated to be a ways of unfortunately as far as I understood.

[kindred crescent]

Uh? My example is I make a mod that when you click on a block, it opens a new UI (modded in the game)

[cursive bramble]

that's the direction they're headed though, so still relevant nonetheless

[kindred crescent]

The client can have the assets and probably also the event to open the menu, but only the server could validate whether it can actually be openned

We'll see

Hey, what edition of the game did you guys get? (I got Cursebreaker)

[stray pasture]

Curse Breaker.

[cursive bramble]

that would be stupid if it were implemented that way, so i doubt it

[stray pasture]

Waited 6 hours for my spinning icon. It finally allowd my payment.

[stray pasture]

Do you understand networking server client for games?

[kindred crescent]

At least, single player will do well lol
No latency 🙂

Adventure maps will be awesome

[cursive bramble]

there is zero advantage to having the server validate client side logic

[stray pasture]

Ahh, so you dont. Understood

[kindred crescent]

The client wouldn't know if the player has the permission to do something, that would be the server 🙂

[cursive bramble]

???

[kindred crescent]

The client can tell the server they have done something (clicking a block) and then receive an answer from the server (open a menu)

[stray pasture]

Any game you have ever played given its a sizable game or competitive. (Multi-player from the ground up) is server authoritative. This means the client is always validated no matter what

[cursive bramble]

so you're saying in a game like cs2, the server tells you when you're allowed to open the settings menu? LOL

[sacred tulip]

Why not? Otherwise I could just teleport my client across the map

[stray pasture]

The server can deny you that. Yes

[kindred crescent]

The settings menu is in the base game, not a modded menu

[cursive bramble]

i'm pretty sure physics are server side only

[stray pasture]

You require client side physics for responsiveness

[sacred tulip]

If that were true movement would lag

[cursive bramble]

that's how every multiplayer game is

[kindred crescent]

?

[cursive bramble]

you've never experienced rubber banding?

in any game?

[stray pasture]

Server authoritative movement refers to the systems inplace where anything you do is requested. The server grants your request. However in the meantime your local client is executing that same code. But this local execution is not sent to the server.

This is why you require the validation. So your client must still simulate what the server is simulating.

Effects, ui, etc is usually sent from the server, unless triggered by your local client for your local client (which the server can still deny given the developers choose do allow such)

[sacred tulip]

I don't know about other games but it's not how Minecraft does it

Rubber banding is a symptom of client side prediction with server sync

Example is my client movement prediction is out of sync with the server so the server teleports me back to correct position

[stray pasture]

Correct they bolted multiplayer ontop of single-player. Bad choice on their part.

[cursive bramble]

right, because physics are done on the server

[kindred crescent]

The client predicts, the server verifies if it makes sense

(yes it does the physics too)

[cursive bramble]

i know how all this stuff works, don't worry i don't need an explanation

[stray pasture]

Your not explaining it correctly. It sounds the opposite

Edit to respond to your reaction: Your explanations are half of the equation. Yes the server simulates physics. However its not just the server. Your not giving the entire other "important" half

Makes your statements sound like the server does ALL of the work.

[cursive bramble]

the other "important" half is the client replicating the state from the server, there's no validation there

[sacred tulip]

How do you think the client replicates the state from the server then

[cursive bramble]

if the server controls where the client is supposed to be, what would it need to validate?

[stray pasture]

Input sent to it. Validation is just logic. Its not special

"Is input W?" "Yes?" Move forward.

This is all of the validation you need on the server.

Hold up. I read that right? How does it run? I cant think terribly. But what's the FPS? 😄

Reminds me of Raspberry Pi...

[coarse canopy]

is there gonna be full server plugin creation documentation?

[cursive bramble]

i don't imagine many people would get very far without documentation, so

[stray pasture]

God we hope so, but likely not on release is what many here speculate

[kindred crescent]

Not at the start because they haven't had the time to do it yet

The code will be shared source soon after the launch though so that's already something

[fast turtle]

Will backend systems using lua to connect via api to interact with the Java system work in theory

[cursive bramble]

as long as you expose the required apis, any language would work, assuming they actually allow you to use java to write server stuff

i'm thinking of implementing a webassembly runtime into a server plugin to allow for the use of any language that can compile to it

[fast turtle]

If they do it’d open up a lot of doors, I’d hope that is implied with the graph system but we will see

[cursive bramble]

yea it's looking like it's a complete guessing game at this point until they actually release

[silver cloak]

It will have documentation but it won't be 100% complete

They already mentioned that

[silver cloak]

Hytale REST API instead of java 😮

[cursive bramble]

😭 that would be awful

[silver cloak]

Why

[cursive bramble]

http is super slow

[silver cloak]

I don't know about that honestly

[cursive bramble]

but implementing a game server?

using a rest api?

[stray pasture]

Yes! This is always nice. Not only languages, but sandboxing benefits aswell.

[cursive bramble]

honestly i don't really care too much about the sandboxing benefits, but it is nice that it's there

i just want to be able to use rust to make hytale stuff 🤣

[silver cloak]

I only want to change the game completely

[stray pasture]

I with C#

[silver cloak]

Even if they lock us using c# only

Like it shouldn't be hard to learn c# anyway. Considering we have LLMs

[cursive bramble]

have they explained why they chose java to make their game server over a lower level language?

[stray pasture]

Team understanding

[silver cloak]

Minecraft community

They used c# for their Pocket Edition server though

MiNET

[stray pasture]

Some are talking about native ports to C#, Rust, and C++. Others are thinking of adapters.

[cursive bramble]

native lower level game servers would be killer, they'd be able to handle so much more throughput

i wish the client was more open too, but i get their insistence

it just would have been cool to implement a renderer using webgpu or something so that hytale could run on all platforms with much less work

[daring lodge]

modding in a lower level language, rather not

[cursive bramble]

i don't think it would be too bad

maybe not c or c++ because those are terrible languages, but rust is awesome

[quaint stone]

Injecting dynamic lib is kind of pain in the ass, modder need to build for multiple platform.

Scripting language like Lua also not that good either

Only possible way I find that Rust community like to use is WASM

[daring lodge]

rust is overrated

[cursive bramble]

yea dynamic libs are definitely not the way to go these days

webassembly is the future

[cursive bramble]

from experience it's the nicest language i've used, i get paid to deal with higher level languages like lua python and javascript and they're awful to use

[daring lodge]

id literally rather write c++ than rust

[stray pasture]

Only thing here is I doubt any would be feature full. I feel either they would lack official, or build for reasons servers define and no more. Its a lot of work, but maybe a community can keep up. Unsure.

[cursive bramble]

yea that tends to be a common thing with community led projects

[stray pasture]

Agreed. Thought C# is it for me. Rust is just a little low for my tastes. 😄

[cursive bramble]

i find that everybody who says this prefers c instead of actual c++ 🤣 modern c++ is terrible

[daring lodge]

dont think theres much diff between low lvl languages and java, no reason to remove all the great features of java

[cursive bramble]

there very much is a difference

[stray pasture]

I would argue there are major reasons.

[daring lodge]

like what tho

[cursive bramble]

jvm is way less optimized than languages that compile to machine code

nothing beats llvm

plus i could argue language features and such for the rest of my life lmfao

[stray pasture]

Even C# being able to shed its GC and manually manage its own memory sti having to pass through its IL is not enough for some reasons you'd want to use lower level languages.

[cursive bramble]

@daring lodge just curious, have you ever used c++ versions past c++14?

[daring lodge]

yes

[cursive bramble]

so then you should understand just how much tech debt c++ carries

[silver cloak]

Thankfully you are not allowed to touch the client 🙏

[silver cloak]

Honestly its 2025, every hardware is forgiving

[cursive bramble]

this isn't really a good excuse, if the jvm runs fast on modern hardware, imagine how much faster machine code is

[silver cloak]

unless we are talking like 100% and 200% performance enhancements

[stray pasture]

JVM isnt all that bad, but it still carries weight, nothing it cant handle for games unless your at the AAA level of development.

[silver cloak]

It's a 30 year old language afterall.

[stray pasture]

Maybe AA

[silver cloak]

The positives

It's 30 years old

The negatives

It's 30 years old

Ofc there are better languages but will they survive as long as java?

[primal shoal]

there's a java vm jit using llvm

[winter edge]

There will be a good handful including my own.

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah. 😄

[primal shoal]

also graal vm (aot) is a thing, graal also has an llvm bitcode backend so like 🤷‍♂️

[cursive bramble]

with how good modern compiler optimizations are, being able to compile to SIMD and its various extensions and such, i'd never use java in any meaningful capacity again

[cursive bramble]

that's cool

[stray pasture]

I feel performance isnt everything. But it depends on your work of focus. I use C# because I as a solo developer will never pull anything that requires rust level of performance (I can't, not anything meaningful) C# and Java are a happy balance.

Plus I work for a company doing AAA level game work in C#

[daring lodge]

java would run as fast as any other language if u tried to optimize it fully, but it adds to much nice features for a modding community

[cursive bramble]

it isn't, but it's a very good "nice to have"

[stray pasture]

Yeah! You have a valid point. Depends on the trade offs of course.

[stray pasture]

Very much so. I dont know its performance capabilities, I know C# can get C++ level of performance (if you know what your doing) haven't looked into Java thought. Likely the same. Or at least close.

[cursive bramble]

i don't see exactly what is so special about java

[stray pasture]

Reflection is one

[daring lodge]

classloader, run things at runtime

[primal shoal]

^ yeah safe runtime extensibility is one

[stray pasture]

Its vulnerability count is quite special if you think about it 😄

[stray pasture]

Is Java able to be sandboxed? I heard recent versions removed true safe sandboxing in preference for wasm. Is this accurate?

[primal shoal]

I think there was something called SecurityManager in older versions, not sure if its still a thing, but it allowed you to limit what can be done and throw an exception up

[chrome tundra]

SecurityManager was a nightmare to maintain for both Java and Framework makers.
They decided to nuke it because all modern systems ship basic antivirus that does the same work at OS level. Like "you should not read that" "you should not access this other process", all antivirus and os do it better than the programming language

[modest burrow]

Really good performance close to native, mem safety, scales good, widely used, fine concurrency models, tons of libraries, backward compatibility, cross platform compatibility. List goes on

[chrome tundra]

Java, depending on how you write the code can also reach C++ performance.
Small or not so complex methods/loops are optimized by C1 (all platforms/os) and even further by C2 (x64; arch64). Intel did a lot to add intrasics to the jvm

[stray pasture]

Yeah I didnt think C# was special here. 😄 I just wasn't sure

[modest burrow]

The problem with java is bad syntax, but that’s why kotlin is very nice or even scala

[stray pasture]

Cozy syntax you mean, feels c cozy to me.. 🙃

[daring lodge]

i won many contests for fastest algorithm code in java when ppl were writing c++

[chrome tundra]

I like kotlin syntax for tiny/medium projects but when it comes to maintaining gigatinc projets I prefer java xD

[stray pasture]

And this is why i cant judge languages. Just because it says fast, means the user can make it fast

[modest burrow]

Never gonna touch Java when Kotlin is a thing

No world it makes sense

[cursive bramble]

meh

[cursive bramble]

honestly every modern language could claim any of these

[chrome tundra]

Well if the game is in java you will be able to do kotlin mods/plugins.

Also with GraalVM and polyglot you could write in many many languages and share objets accross them like it's the same language.

[modest burrow]

Like?

[chrome tundra]

It compiles your code to an IR and then the graal compiler replace C2 to execute it 🙂

[stray pasture]

Well if you want to tell us why Rust is so special I would love to hear!

[cursive bramble]

python and golang are the first that come to mind

[vernal niche]

ThatsBait.gif

[daring lodge]

you get to 1v1 the code in the rustrover, its like the ultimate code battle royale

[chrome tundra]

Guys guys guys: I've just told you could use whatever language you wanna use to mod. No need to argue 🙂

[cursive bramble]

i was gonna say javascript too but it's singlethreaded unless you fiddle around with nodejs's process stuff

[round remnant]

thats just not correct

[modest burrow]

Golang sure, but python is slow and not comparable, not typed, and just eh imo

[modest burrow]

How so?

[daring lodge]

no language is as smooth as java with just being able to load, change code at runtime

[long hazel]

Where I come from we say python is for prototyping

[stray pasture]

This was purely a java thing, it is why java got big!

[round remnant]

The GC alone makes the performance worse than native vs languages like Rust/C/C++ no warms up required
Java concurrency is just heavy weight threads

GoLang would be my first choice for making a server ngl

[daring lodge]

but modding would be impossible in golang

[stray pasture]

Modern language versions you can shed this weight. So it is true you can get that level of performance it just takes a lot of effort.

[modest burrow]

They have green threads. Golang has a gc too. It’s still close to native performance with Java in a lot of cases

[stray pasture]

Web Assembly

[chrome tundra]

Well the warmup is because of compiler.
GC is just to reclaim memory and has nothing to do with warmup 😉
And virtual threads are goland goroutines and kotlin corouti es

[round remnant]

You cannot compare performance of Java with something like C (which is what I assume when u say native)

[daring lodge]

web assembly is kinda hacky for this kind of thing unless your writing wasm urself

[modest burrow]

You really can

[vernal niche]

I love my Golang but the reality is that Java really shines with being able to build plugins.

I thoroughly believe that Minecraft modding would never have taken off this way if it had released in C++ or similar

[stray pasture]

Web Assembly is what is becoming a new standard, its developed for this reason. 😄

[modest burrow]

There are even times where Java can be faster than C

[cursive bramble]

where do i even start, traits are integrated so well in the language and the standard library, often times you'll discover many built-in shortcuts like being able to convert Vec<Result<T, E>> into Result<Vec<T>, E> and vice versa

[chrome tundra]

That's very true..just looking at skyrim gives an idea how it is awful

[cursive bramble]

rust enums are also great, many languages have actually been stealing the functionality

[tropic axle]

Exhaustive case matching for error handling 🤤

[cursive bramble]

yes was just gonna mention that

[tropic axle]

Monads my beloved

[daring lodge]

just write haskell

[cursive bramble]

pattern matching is also a feature being stolen by many other languages, java, c#, php

[tropic axle]

Haskell is real asf, I love lazy evaluation

[daring lodge]

okay see urself out

[cursive bramble]

rust macros are also on a whole other level

[stray pasture]

I cant argue your points! Does sound like some huge benefits.

[cursive bramble]

there are libraries that let you write html in rust

like not just string literals, but actual html

[tropic axle]

Zero cost abstractions on things like iterators

[cursive bramble]

#[component]
pub fn SimpleCounter(initial_value: i32) -> impl IntoView {
    let (value, set_value) = signal(initial_value);
    let clear = move |_| set_value(0);
    let decrement = move |_| set_value.update(|value| *value -= 1);
    let increment = move |_| set_value.update(|value| *value += 1);

    view! {
        <div>
            <button on:click=clear>Clear</button>
            <button on:click=decrement>-1</button>
            <span>"Value: " {value} "!"</span>
            <button on:click=increment>+1</button>
        </div>
    }
}```

[cursive bramble]

yes and they compile straight into SIMD instructions, it's so good

[daring lodge]

rust is good for some things, but just trying to shove it down every project is just not gonna work

[stray pasture]

Yeah, most languages are in this boat. Although there are some very determined people.

[cursive bramble]

it's worked so well for everything that i've tried

[modest burrow]

When you get low level and have to use unsafe blocks for everything it’s not very worth. Otherwise sureeee

[cursive bramble]

web development has been wonderful ^, i can also write renderers, i can fiddle around with operating system apis

[stray pasture]

There are a few "universial" languages. Okay at almost everything bad at specifics.

Java, C#, and JS tend to fit this model. They can do almost any app, but fail to out perform tools built for it.

Generalist languages.

[tropic axle]

What framework is that? I've been working on a project with egui targeting wasm for a website

[cursive bramble]

unsafe spam is overexaggerated

[cursive bramble]

leptos, it's modeled after solidjs so it uses signals instead of re-calling your function every time like react does

[modest burrow]

?

[cursive bramble]

if you've worked on any serious project then it's just a bit of wrapping some basic accesses/mutations, then you never really need to fiddle around with it again

[modest burrow]

Point is it defeats half the point of rust if I’m wrapping everything i need to do in unsafe calls.

[cursive bramble]

if it becomes a problem then there's some major decisions to reconsider lol

[full steppe]

GUYS IF SOMEBODY DOES A SERVER GAME AND PEOPLE PLAY IT —- WILL HE MAKE MONEY OUT OF IT?

[cursive bramble]

safety isn't the only selling point of rust, but if it's the only thing that draws you to the language then even unsafe rust is safer than using c or c++

[stray pasture]

I just think rust is slow to work in. 😄 its not better for me for that reason. 😂

[modest burrow]

It is the main selling point of rust since the start, and it has grown since then. What keeps me away from the language is the bad syntax and fighting the compiler, and most things I’m doing in low level languages require c libraries. There’s obviously good things in it but I find what I need in C++. Which can be programmed to be safe if done correctly

[cursive bramble]

eh, only if you haven't modeled out your program state very well

[full steppe]

Yall @cursive bramble @modest burrow @stray pasture

[tropic axle]

I actually like when the compiler fights me, it often points out genuine issues and it makes refactoring really nice. Several times during a refactor nothing works, and then it all works all at once when I work out all the kinks

[cursive bramble]

maybe it was the main selling point a couple of years ago, but the language and its core/std libraries have developed very much

the abstractions the language gives you now are awesome, when i work in other languages i find that i miss being able to .map(|e| e.whatever()) or pattern match my way out of something

[stray pasture]

Maybe, but then again I have less nonsense to deal with and get stuff running faster, I dont like writing line for line, I use AI to write most. I am get output with little fight.

But I see and understand the appeal and use of rust. But I played the language game many times, and I settled on the all rounder for a reason that I had. And it worked out well!

[modest burrow]

Like try doing systems programming, rdma, unsafe ffi, and anything performance critical in rust. You will hate your life

[cursive bramble]

i've done lots of that and it's been awesome every time

[modest burrow]

Like what?

[tropic axle]

Have you tried Zig? I've not, but I've heard that it's designed for C interop?

[cursive bramble]

i've written a directx renderer and i'm working on a binary disassembler right now

[modest burrow]

I’ve tried a little. Yea zig looks cool, their meta programming is interesting. Language is def still very early stage tho

[daring lodge]

i personally like to get projects out not play with my code

[modest burrow]

Probably hated your life 🙂

[cursive bramble]

i've also reimplemented windows' LoadLibraryA functionality

[stray pasture]

I wouldnt say thay. I worked with Dx, Vulcan, and OpenGL. All were fun!

[cursive bramble]

nope it's been awesome actually, most of the headaches in low level code have been bit manipulation related for me, and rust's iterator methods have solved that

[stray pasture]

Then again I like results and thus I like building tiny systems that grow one big one.

[modest burrow]

I’m not saying that systems programming is why you would hate your life. It’s just using rust for it lol

To each their own though. I use c++

[cursive bramble]

when was the last time you used rust?

this sounds like a 2019 take

[modest burrow]

I did some network benchmarking on rust earlier this year

Hated every second of it

And don’t plan on touching rust again until something forces me like work lol

[tropic axle]

Can we talk about C++ iterators and having to compare an iterator to end() instead of using something nice like an option type

We have std::optional now

[cursive bramble]

i find when this is the case, people usually write their rust code like they're writing in the language they used before

[modest burrow]

No I was writing rust, how one would write rust iirc

Type classes, macros what not. Bad syntax

[cursive bramble]

you have any public github repos?

[modest burrow]

Not in rust lol

[cursive bramble]

i can't really gauge what you should improve on because i have no clue how you did stuff when you used rust

[daring lodge]

all this trouble just to write in rust

kinda why we rather just do java

[modest burrow]

Don’t worry about it, I won’t come back to rust anyways. Appreciate it tho

[modest burrow]

I think it’s just too late to go back now haha

[cursive bramble]

you go through headaches in every new language

[daring lodge]

not rly, once i learnt one language, most are easy

[modest burrow]

They added ranges now

[modest burrow]

C++ and Rust are just a different beast tho tbh. Black holes that never end.

[daring lodge]

c++ wasnt that bad for me

[cursive bramble]

each language has its idioms

[daring lodge]

or afleast my use cases

[modest burrow]

That’s easier to say till you actually start meta programming, using RAII, and taking advantage of the language. (Not saying you didn’t)

[cursive bramble]

highly doubt you've gone that far

[cursive bramble]

RAII isn't that hard to grasp, the real problems are SFINAE, all the ambiguous different ways to do things like call constructors and overloads, and dealing with all the tech debt the standard has accumulated over the decades

they tried to fix SFINAE with concepts in c++20 but let's be real, the people concepts were meant for aren't going to use them lmfao

[modest burrow]

Yes but raii ties into that

Concepts are strong if used correctly

[cursive bramble]

they're a bandaid that nobody is really going to use

[modest burrow]

They will at some point we hope

[cursive bramble]

concepts are inherently flawed too, i prefer how rust handles it with their trait bounds, being exclusive instead of inclusive like c++'s concepts are

even with concepts you can still run into SFINAE issues

[modest burrow]

I mean concepts and traits are just very different. It’s a constraint checking system.

Predicates vs contracts

[cursive bramble]

emphasis on bounds in trait bounds

[cold kite]

What is this?

Can we make plugin?

[west elk]

only when the game is released

[old moon]

Binary disassembler for what exactly?

[celest tide]

A plugin for autocraft ?

[bleak lynx]

Is there any information about the programming language, or whether the game will have plugin support on day one?

[west elk]

Java, yes plugin support will be on day one

[bleak lynx]

nice thanks

[cursive bramble]

just windows binaries to begin with because that's what i have the most experience reversing, then i'm thinking of expanding onto bytecode formats of various languages runtimes like .net il and luau bytecode for funsies

i also wanna give a shot at writing my own decompiler, but since there aren't any good IR formats in rust i'm probably gonna write my own, it'll be quite a task but it sounds so fun

[old moon]

Sounds quite complex, I haven’t really done that much low level. I did lc-3 in university but that’s about it.

Good luck with the development, going to be a long ride lol

[cursive bramble]

it's not that complex, just tedious honestly

it's just a bit of pattern recognition, once you've seen a handful of things then you've seen pretty much everything

[chrome tundra]

Vineflower exists 😉 (at least for the java server side)

[cursive bramble]

that's written in java though 😢

[prisma agate]

Btw why Rust? I have used it for a while in the past, but the more I got into low level stuff the more I realize how poorly designed it is for what it claims to be (a low level systems lang)

Currently I landed on using C for my compiler (I looked at zig, cpp, C3 and Odin and all had a few problems that made me choose C over them, even with the issues of C)

[cursive bramble]

i just love the language, so everything new that i make now is written in it

[prisma agate]

Why do you love it?

[cursive bramble]

i've just had a bunch of little good experiences throughout my time using the language, like the compiler being able to infer a type deep into a pipeline that i didn't think it would be able to infer, or me being able to use a certain type combined with some data structure and feed it into a pipeline and it just working

or the best feeling, when you have some niche specific thing you want to do to some container type and you look at the standard library to find out that there's a function that's meant exactly for what you wanted to do

[chrome tundra]

Can't you just write bindings like everyone would do to not depend on a new system that will not be maintained more than 3 months ?

[grizzled cedar]

is api already out?

[cursive bramble]

there is zero innovation with that approach

plus if there's a missing feature or a bug in the thing that you're wrapping over, you're out of luck and rely on the developers who are already swamped with other tasks to fix it in like 5 months

[chrome tundra]

This mentally created 10 years of technical dept in my software company and the software is 15 years old... (according to the Sonar static analysis)

[cursive bramble]

sucks to suck then, don't know what else to tell you

if you don't like my approach, you're free to make your own tool 😁

[chrome tundra]

No, I'll use the standard and contribute to the standard even if I have to learn the language for it.
Only write the code you need to make it the best and have 100% of your focus on it.

[prisma agate]

So good type inference and an extensive std lib?

My main issue with Rust is the moment I want to do something remotely low-level the language fights me so hard to avoid it, for example custom allocators, pointer arithmetic, etc

And not to speak on how annoying RAII is, and how convoluted the RAII/ownership/lifetime system is just to prove memory safety, which is mostly preventable by using things like arena allocators and bounds checking arrays

[cursive bramble]

i've never been in a situation where raii becomes annoying

lifetimes have only ever become hard to respect when my data structure was designed in a dumb way

[prisma agate]

I very rarely want to drop things at the end of scope, except for the very top level main procedure

[cursive bramble]

then you just need to move ownership to something that's in a higher scope

[prisma agate]

Also when I have temporary scratch storage that ends at the end of a scope, I'd rather use a thread-local scratch arena, so it reuses memory, instead of having to allocate new objects every time

[prisma agate]

I don't like that Rust ties ownership to scopes

[cursive bramble]

i come from c++, so raii is engraved into my brain, so i'm fine with it

[prisma agate]

You should try writing some straightforward procedural C, it's so much nicer, way less mental overhead, no need to jump through nonsense hoops, and u can still keep track of ownership and lifetimes in your own way

[cursive bramble]

yeah i've tried it when i was working with lua's C api, not a fan at all

a lot more boilerplate and a lot more to keep track of

[prisma agate]

I find it the opposite, way less to keep track of

And ownership rules in Rust are too restrictive, and they provides no benefit for me, for example this doesn't even compile

let v = vec![1, 2, 3];
let e = v.get(1).unwrap();
v.push(4); // can't do this bcz we got a ref to E

[cursive bramble]

yea .get returns a reference and .push could reallocate the whole buffer, so rust can't guarantee that the reference will still point to the same data

i prefer it over potentially holding a dangling pointer

[primal shoal]

We get the source code of hytale server

They're also going to be accepting bug fixes and I hear there might be a bug bounty

[prisma agate]

That's another good point, vectors in Rust/C++ suck bcz they need to reallocate themselves, that's why I use arena allocators, which don't need to resize (they can grow basically infinitely) , but Rust makes it really hard to use anything but their main heap allocator

[cursive bramble]

this isn't in reference to hytale

just speaking generally

[cursive bramble]

well technically you're able to switch the allocator in both languages, but yea by default they reallocate

[prisma agate]

Yes but in C I just have the allocator implementation which calls mmap/VirtualAlloc under the hood, and then that's it, in Rust if I want to have String::new() or whatever use that, it's way more annoying and then it just becomes the global allocator, if u want different allocators for different purposes it becomes even more annoying to setup

99% of Rust (and C++) features are useless for me, but using Rust forces me into using some of them, and then I have to fight it to opt-out, at least in C++ I only have to opt in, and can mostly write C-like C++ (with just operator overloading for math)

C does have some safety issues like no way to have automatic bounds checking (unless u have a wrapper) and some other stuff, Zig/Odin/C3 fix this but they have their own issues

Also arenas group lifetimes nicely, for example in my compiler I have an arena per AST (file), and instead of in C++/Rust I'd have to call a dtor recursively, I can just free it all at once (it's faster, and easier to mentally keep track of)

[primal shoal]

there's allocator-api in rust but it's still unstable and polymorphic memory resource in C++

[prisma agate]

Yea, I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying u have to go thru extra stuff to get there, and why would I choose a language that adds friction for the kind of stuff I want to do rather than make it easier?

[primal shoal]

For C++ pmr you can just use the classes in std::pmr and pass that allocator in, it's a few extra letters

[cursive bramble]

switching allocators both globally and for specific containers is actually pretty easy, but you do need to fulfill the standard implementation requirements to pass in your custom allocator

[primal shoal]

I think the api is largely the same too so if you want to swap to pmr or away from it you can just change the class and initialisation of the resource

[cursive bramble]

you do the same in rust, the standard containers have a generic type that have the allocator trait bound

[primal shoal]

Yeah C++ has that for standard types too, this is for runtime allocators (allocator-api)

[prisma agate]

This defeats the entire purpose of custom allocators, which will have their own ways of allocating (like an arena doesn't have arbitrary frees) so it's fundamentally flawed

[cursive bramble]

maybe implementation was the wrong word to use

they're opaque types, so the implementation is up to you

they have methods that you need to implement

[prisma agate]

No, I get that, but first, u r probably paying the cost of vtables rather than directly just calling a function (that may get inclined), and also I'd assume u must adhere to a malloc like interface, where u give the size/alignment when allocating, and when freeing u just get the address?
Bcz the whole point of arenas is they work like a stack, u can push a bunch of stuff, then pop the last thing, or pop the entire thing
Or pool allocators which are arenas that only allow same-sized elements, and use a freelist so u can reuse elements u free

Both have their own set of functions to allocate, free, manipulate etc, abiding to a generic allocator defeats the purpose

[cursive bramble]

nope, no vtables

and yes, requires a malloc like interface

[prisma agate]

Ye so that basically makes it unusable

[cursive bramble]

why

[prisma agate]

Using arenas as a single global allocator is really horrible (at that point something like malloc is better), the entire point is to specialize the allocator based on the data, by grouping data with the same lifetime into the same arena (imagine a game where u need to do a bunch of computations per frame, so u can have a "frame arena" that gets reset at the start of each frame, where all your allocations are)
Or for a pool, imagine game entities, where one entity dies opens up a new spot to store another entity in it's place

[cursive bramble]

i don't see why you wouldn't be able to implement that behavior in either language

[prisma agate]

U can, except it'd be so much hassle to do it in Rust, in C, all I have to do is write my arena type, then do Arena arena = {0}; and Foo* foo = ArenaPushType(&arena, Foo); then ArenaRelease(&arena); and get the nice semantics benefit

In rust you will have to do a bunch of crazy unsafe stuff to allow for this kind of thing, and unsafe stuff is very verbose, so u will end up doing more work to get it working

And then u open up the possibility of a ton of bugs from people doing String::new() instead of your own Arena::new(String) or whatever

[cursive bramble]

well the api would ideally be String::<Arena>::new()

so that they know which allocator they're using

[prisma agate]

My argument has always been that Rust is pointless for me, all it does is make it harder to do the kind of stuff I want to do, and makes it easier to do the kind of stuff I don't want to do, and makes it hard to opt-out of things like RAII

So I'd rather just use C which doesn't get in my way, even at the cost of some of the issues, and that's also why I am writing a compiler in it, for a language that fixes some of my pain points with C without restricting me (like Rust does)

[cursive bramble]

fair enough i guess

[prisma agate]

Sorry I forgot Rust syntax (last time I used it was over a year ago), the point of arenas is they are an object, so they are not global, but rather u have to allocate it on a specific arena, like arena.new(T)

An arena is super simple, it's just a base pointer (where it starts allocating) and a used (u64) indicating how much of it was used, so allocating is just as simple as ptr = base + used; used += size; (obv a proper implementation will have other stuff and logic like alignment, reservedSize, etc)

And then freeing is just used = 0;so it's super fast to alloc/free things (versus malloc which is like 6k lines of code)

[crude schooner]

Can Hytale be programmed in Java? Is it similar to Minecraft or simpler?

[ionic socket]

Server is java, yes

[cursive bramble]

according to the information so far, server will be programmable in java, but to do client stuff you need to learn their visual scripting node thing

[crude schooner]

bet thanks

[crude schooner]

bet thanks

[cursive bramble]

there's Container::new_in(allocator_instance) too, so if you have multiple instances of the same kind of allocator you can pass in a specific one

i'm sure it's pretty similar in c++

[prisma agate]

But this is forcing me to adhere to an interface for allocations, which defeats the purpose

[cursive bramble]

nothing is stopping you from implementing your own method on the allocator

[prisma agate]

Exactly, so why not just call it directly

It simplifies things

[cursive bramble]

because the already built in standard containers need a predictable way to exist in your allocator

[prisma agate]

For cpp, I wouldn't use any of their std lib or features and would just write it the way I do with C, ArenaPushType(arena, T) and returns a T*

[prisma agate]

They can't probably, bcz the allocator has it's own semantics, it may only allow elements with a fixed size, or may not allow arbitrary freeing of pointers, etc

And if u use virtual memory semantics u can have a list (vector) that is dynamically growable without resizing, so pointers r always stable

[cursive bramble]

i mean u keep doing what ur doing, but i feel like ur being too rigid

arena allocators most definitely can fit into this interface

it's opaque so you control what methods do what, if you need the free function to just be a stub then leave it empty, and just implement drop on the arena to deallocate

fun conversation though, i gotta head to sleep

[prisma agate]

How am I being rigid? You are very adamant that I use rust for some reason, even though it is such a poorly designed language for systems programming/low level stuff and makes it insanely annoying and or difficult to develop the kind of stuff I work on, I don't want a language that babysits me, I want a language that just gets out of my way so I can actually code

[prisma agate]

Yea sure u can make it a stub, and that's what zig does for it's arena allocator when used with it's generic allocator interface, but I don't see any reason to do it, just let the user direct access to the actual allocator, there is no benefit to hiding data

[prisma agate]

Gn!

[rancid horizon]

do we already know in which language it is possible to programm server plugins?

[jovial scroll]

Java

[chrome tundra]

Java but it probably means you can use most jvm languages without any issues.

[stray pasture]

Okay, people need to learn to "Ctl + F" or scroll up just a wee bit

[sharp lake]

or just read the channel description, or the blog post, or the q&a, or literally anything at all because then they'd happen to run into the answer

And like 60% of people asking don't even have a Git linked so then it makes you wonder

[stray pasture]

You made me check if I had linked mine linked. I forgot I did that.

[sharp lake]

LMAO I'm shallow and petty so anytime there's a debate I check their credentials

[near raptor]

To be fair, I rarely use GitHub

[sharp lake]

Yeah and you still have a bunch of repos at least
I didn't link mine bc my stuff is GARBAGE LOL

[near raptor]

My repos are ancient though haha, when I barely knew how to write proper code

[prisma agate]

I mean I no longer use GitHub, but even if I did, I would ideally not want to link it

But I think it is linked lol

[stray pasture]

Mine got me my job. But its like 4 years old. I use my git server.

[near raptor]

Oh, seems like most of my public repos are from more recent years, though all my old plugins (like 2016 or so) are private

[sharp lake]

Most of my repos are just forks of other people's stuff and submitting fixes / changes 💀

I helped someone transition to NixOS so I have literal PRs for someone's dotfiles 😂

[stray pasture]

I have a Minecradt extraction battler! We'll 90% sure it doesnt run any more. 😄 but it did!

[stray pasture]

Story of my life.

[near raptor]

I made some tools some years ago to convert between .schem and .schematic (they are two vastly different formats), as well as .schem and .nbt (Minecraft sturcture files). Worked quite alright.

[prisma agate]

Bro I have the reversed, someone helped me with a NixOS issue so he has a PR in my dotfiles lmao

[sharp lake]

It felt rude submitting a literal refactor for someone's personal configs but they appreciated it, so

[prisma agate]

Idk what's up with the nix community and their urge to refactor people's config

[vernal niche]

"Thank you for inviting me to your house. I completely remodeled it while you were grocery shopping. Much better now."

[sharp lake]

There are lots of strange things people do when getting started with functional programming
And it's not like Nix has proper documentation, it's been a mess since ever

[prisma agate]

I mean it is kinda rude, each time I'd ask for help they'd try to fix 100 other things that are wrong with it

But I am tired of dealing with issues due to nix, so I plan to switch to fedora soon, probably once I get my new GPU in about 2 months

[near raptor]

The little chatbot I made for a Discord server (which was public) was of such good quality that GitHub felt the need to freeze it into some vault in Svalbard as part of their Arctic Code thing. (spoiler alert: the code wasn't that great and it was only used on one Discord server, which I help maintain)

[sharp lake]

Do you run into issues due to Nix often? Mine stopped within a week or so of starting basically

If I need to run something specific and I don't want to compile/configure it with Nix, I just run it in a container, so there's never really any compatibility problem

I have a controller HUD that was built with electron-forge that I wasn't going to bother with, so I used a container
But something like my keybind manager I packaged with Nix so that I can write keybinds into my configs

[prisma agate]

Yea, basically all of my issues

I had emojis stop working for 2 months until while browsing the NixOS wiki (due to a diff issue) I found an option to fix that emoji issue

I can't just run games friends send me bcz they use lins that can't be found (unless u try to guess a bunch of libs, and then u still miss some) it's just annoying not having it FHS

[sharp lake]

Font problems are pretty documented so I'm surprised by that one
And the other can be solved with a container or just with an FHS wrapper, like steam-run or a custom one

[prisma agate]

Also I don't care for most of the nix hype, the only thing I wanted to do is list which binaries I want to be installed via a file, instead of commands and then forgetting to uninstall some stuff leading to bloat

[sharp lake]

You can probably just add it as a Steam game anyway and run it with the runtime they ship too

[sharp lake]

With Arch you can just look at pacman -Qe every 9 months or whatever and it'll tell you what you installed

[prisma agate]

I don't want to containerize all my stuff, it just extra annoying and I don't need to do that on other distros, games just link to global system libs, no need to wrap it and guess which deps they use

[sharp lake]

Idk what you'd do on Fedora but it's probably pretty simple to list what you installed explicitly

[sharp lake]

If all they link to is global system libs, then steam-run works fine and you probably have it installed already

[prisma agate]

I think dnf history or something? But I'd probably just keep track of stuff I install in a file

[sharp lake]

It seems strange to keep track of it manually, because package managers already keep track of it for you lol

[prisma agate]

Didn't know that existed, had to spend an hour or two each time setting a nix shell/develop etc

[prisma agate]

I remember listing it in suse and it just listed everything including deps and pre installed system stuff, adding lots of noise

[sharp lake]

It wouldn't surprise me if they just have a switch for filtering by explicit

[prisma agate]

But there is probably some option to filter to only what I directly installed (maybe not with zypper bcz it sucks, but dnf probably has something bcz I heard it's good)

[sharp lake]

That's what I meant by an FHS wrapper, and you can make those for anything
It's just that steam-run is a default one and it's for the Steam games you have running

This is copy pasted from someone's repo but this is an example

rodinFhs = pkgs.buildFHSEnv {
   name = "rodinFhs";
   targetPkgs = pkgs: (with pkgs; [
     jdk23
     glib
     gtk3
     zlib
     self.outputs.packages.${system}.rodin
   ]) ++ (with pkgs.xorg; [
     libX11
     libXcursor
     libXrandr
     libXrender
     libXtst
   ]);
   multiPkgs = pkgs: (with pkgs; [
     udev
     alsa-lib
   ]);
   runScript = "rodin";
 };

[prisma agate]

Well nobody told me about it ever, it's always some custom way to do it via nix developer por whatever

[sharp lake]

The default wrapper for Steam is going to work fine for things that just expect some X11 libraries and whatever other misc system stuff

But if you need more, there's that buildFHSEnv thing

[prisma agate]

Yes but u need to list all the deps, instead of them just working out of the box, I spent like 2 hours of a 3-day hackathon debugging why audio didn't work (bcz I didn't know I need to put alsa in the deps)

[sharp lake]

You can just read every dependency from a binary with ldd, you don't really need to guess
And there are even Nix tools that do that for you and just give you a list of packages

[prisma agate]

Didn't know this was a thing tho

[sharp lake]

Yeah that's bc there are no docs 😭

[prisma agate]

I just want stuff to work and get out of my way, nix is not that for me, fedora is probably (even Linus uses it bcz he wants a "just works" system)

[sharp lake]

What made you pick Nix in the first place?

[prisma agate]

Same with programming languages, currently writing a compiler for a language that would get out of the way and let me do whatever I want

[sharp lake]

🤨 you want a compiler that doesn't help you at all?

[prisma agate]

Like I said earlier, being able to define what software I use in a file (so I can debloat it and not lose track) that's it

[prisma agate]

Well no, I want a language that isn't restrictive, basically C, but C is old and has some missing things like a better type system, less UB, proper built-in arrays (with bounds checking in debug) etc

[sharp lake]

There's some irony here considering you just said you wanted Fedora

And that's what's the entire point of Fedora is too, to containerize all your stuff 💀

[prisma agate]

Is it? If u install thru dnf it's not containerized? Only if u use flatpaks/appimages

[sharp lake]

It uses layers and flatpaks primarily
It wouldn't surprise me if their repo doesn't actually have a bunch of things you'd want, because they expect you to use the flatpaks

[prisma agate]

I don't mind flatpaks for some stuff, especially software I don't trust, but I want to be able to run stuff without containerization like my own games or a friend's game etc

[sharp lake]

Yeah I'm not sure if Fedora is going to be smooth for that either lol
I think they intend you to use Steam flatpak for games, but I haven't really looked
That's just what almost everyone does

[prisma agate]

It should be, bcz games can dynamically link the x11/Wayland/audio etc libs just fine, which was my issue

Otherwise for software I download, I don't mind containerization unless it hurts performance for games or whatever

But there is some passthrough stuff so hopefully it's not that bad, ik Hytale wanted to distribute itself as a flatpak

[formal burrow]

the linux community will figure out how to make Hytale playable on the deck in the first 1-2 days

SAMSUNG IS GONNA HALT SATA SSD PRODUCTION? (not nvme)

[fleet isle]

Watch it be as simple as plugging Proton in and voila...

[lament steeple]

running via steam will do the work probably

ill check on launch

[sharp lake]

They already confirmed that it'll work fine, they fixed the complications

[lament steeple]

hopefully

[chrome tundra]

Will it be an API ?
Will we be able to call internals like NMS spigot/bukkit plugins ?
Will we be able to do coremoddings like with mixins/jscoremodding ?

[sharp lake]

Read the blog post

[chrome tundra]

oh, there is one .

[lament steeple]

there also an faq with the tech director. check out the pinned messages on #discussion

[stray pasture]

Ain't no way my message will ever get seen for how fast that chat is moving. 😄

[prisma agate]

That's not how it works, it's just whether proton (with some small tweaks maybe) runs it or not

[waxen abyss]

Will it only be accessible after the pre-sale? API?

[sharp lake]

The battler?

[stray pasture]

Hmm? The discussion chat that was linked. It was flying at mock 5.

[sharp lake]

Oh, I searched your recent messages bc I didn't see anything new from you
So I assumed I missed it LOL

[primal shoal]

is anyone thinking of making in depth tech plugins? I wanna play something like gtnh

[timber flax]

I am thinking... because Hytale the client-side is announced only for windows for now, but is this also for the server-side? 😄 I'd be sad to host server on a windows machine xd