server-plugins-read-only

[stray pasture]

This is going to be good to watch, be seriously do yall not use AI for any dev workflow what so ever?

I can develop without AI, but is it SUPER useful that I just rather not unless I HAVE to. Saves time and gets 5X more work done

[fleet isle]

Don't need to when I'm clearly better than all of them, obviously

[sharp lake]

I've used it for converting pseudo-code into a language I don't know
So writing things in a new language is easier, because I don't know the syntax but still know the concepts

[loud umbra]

exactly

[sharp lake]

for i in 1..10; do acc += i; done

[stray pasture]

I mean you should be "Better" than AI, but I wont spend 20 minutes searching docs if I don't have to. 😛

That is 20 mins I could be on another task!

[loud umbra]

best is to be CR guy for AI

[stray pasture]

CR?

[loud umbra]

Code Review

[fleet isle]

It's quite funny cause I rarely use the docs as they're mostly outdated

[loud umbra]

so you probably write in Cobol

[stray pasture]

Okay, that was pretty dang good. 😛

[fleet isle]

No but I did write some assembly code

[stray pasture]

Yeah, I could see what you would hate AI for that one. 😄

Been there done that, I respect my high level languages

[sharp lake]

💀

[loud umbra]

I use AI to code in binary

[viscid wren]

TAB, placeholder system, mines system, boxpvp plugins boxmining plugins skyblock plugins

[sharp lake]

What is TAB? And box-mining

[viscid wren]

boxmining game mode is from turkey , italian, youtube search is boxpvp gameplay

TAB and scoreboard system

[prisma agate]

Someone got good OG names that are dev-related

[rose atlas]

code

[prisma agate]

I really wanted that, was taken, the 3 I wanted the most were void, code and dev

I got virtual and memory with my 2 tokens, pretty happy with virtual

[vernal niche]

Hello 🔥

[prisma agate]

-# And together I am virtual memory!

[rich solar]

Hope your deployment went well!

[prisma agate]

Hello

What names did u guys get

[vernal niche]

Yep. Perfect every time 😎

[fathom pelican]

If you make money in development not using AI means you get left behind. It just comes down to how much you know the pipeline and systems involved. Business logic ect. It’s no different than a principal engineer or tech lead having juniors write pull requests they then have to review. When you make it farther up the chain you realize you’re not developing anymore. You’re delegating grunt work to juniors. AI is that junior. Ofcourse this also means I really feel bad for everyone coming into the industry now. It’s super tough to get a job

I’ve saved code from having massive AI vulnerabilities. And that’s what I continue to be paid for. Making sure what’s being produced is good.

[stray pasture]

Yeah, this is how I look at it. Never really see it as a replacement more or less an enhancement. Main reason why our small team is able to output double the productivity. But I agree, knowing the language is just as much the second half to use AI. You cant lead a Jr. If you your self dont understand.

[prisma agate]

Meanwhile I still don't find AI code generation useful (I only use perplexity to google for me bcz google has gotten so much worse)

[fathom pelican]

It can be pretty bad. Pretty useful too. It’s bad enough where you still need to read and understand. And for some features arguably doing it yourself may have been faster.

[stray pasture]

Absolutely. But when its good, that time savings is killer!

[fathom pelican]

Yup that’s the key. It’s very good at pattern recognition and data transforms as well. Regex is no longer a pain

[tidal mauve]

if you delegate too much you might just lose your grip on how to do it right

balance is of utmost importance here

[fathom pelican]

This is the big issue happening to me now haha. I find it helps to actually read output and have it explain its reasoning behind certain choices. Then audit that so even if not writing you get the bigger picture

[stray pasture]

Nah, I disagree. It just means being thorough is not your priority. If your delegating your still having to understand the problem and solve.

[stray pasture]

I keep forgetting not everyone uses AI the same. 😄

[tidal mauve]

though in my line of work, the main way i use AI is documentation explainer

[fathom pelican]

If I had the choice tho. AI wouldn’t exist. I just can’t see the benefits of massive job loss. I rather write code myself even if it takes me longer and keep my friends employed. That’s just me tho

[stray pasture]

Oh god, that is a huge plus 😄 I despise writing docs that never get read

[tidal mauve]

not writing, but reading out.
many tools have their docs scattered across thousands of pages, and navigating them is often a pain

[fathom pelican]

Stripe docs are bliss tho

[tidal mauve]

so getting it to find a piece you need helps

[stray pasture]

This is totally valid! My company doesn't plan to replace anyone, they rather bring more people on and use AI because it just allows us to produce more.

[fathom pelican]

The problem is companies see this. Why hire 30 when 3 can do the job of 30. So unintentionally replaced 27 jobs.

[prisma agate]

Yea that's also a useful use of AI, as a semantic searcher in large documentation for only the relevant parts, basically the same reason I use it to google for me

[stray pasture]

99% of the time I am asking AI about Azure SDK implemention, or a WPF work around. etc 😄 (I already know what I want and how I want to do it, but it generates most of my stuff first try) 😛

[stray pasture]

One reason I love my company!

[tidal mauve]

my company unlikely to ever delegate anything to AI in such way. too high risks, too big of responsibility, and iirc there is no good sovereign model yet

[stray pasture]

I also despise Agentic coding.. - Terrfying considering I just read a report of Microsofts AI deleting their entire D drive.

Removes you from the intimacy of the program and applications/problems your solving. You now just a glorified QA with an unknown system

[fathom pelican]

You just know they want to tho. Liability is what’s saving developers right now. But if AGI gets created I think we will have bigger issues to worry about.

[prisma agate]

But then they realize 3 people can't do the job of 30

[fringe ore]

You should be able to limit the scope of the ai though right?

Ive had a simialr issue before lol

[tidal mauve]

hey this company moves so slow, by the time we employ AI here i might be ready for retirement

[fathom pelican]

It drives me nuts not understanding the code base. Gives me anxiety

[stray pasture]

I don't know I did it for a few months and I was more annoyed than ever even though I was creating so much faster! - I enjoy programming, just not writing line by line. 😄 (Put blocks together, but 2 minutes per block instead of 20)

[fathom pelican]

Like. How do I know that one db call doesn’t use direct string comparison exposing that endpoint to a timing attack on the front end. AI still misses these things unless you mention it. Which defeats the purpose

[fringe ore]

Lol yeah, you can control most IDE ai scope/context amd block where they can do stuff in. More of a admin issue,

But the real issue is ai believing its ok to delete the entire original code lol

[stray pasture]

This is where specialty and seniority come in. AI is literally your Jr. 😄

[tidal mauve]

personally im still at that point in life when i enjoy learning things myself, so im holding off on having AI do anything generative for me

[fathom pelican]

Learning is fun

If I didn’t use AI I would’ve been outsourced by now tho at my place.

[prisma agate]

The chances for AGI are basically non existent in my view, obv transformer based models which just ingest text is not gonna be AGI enough to match a human, you'd have to come up with some totally different thing and train it for a ton of time on 3D environments and stuff and basically recreate human censors + a human like brain

[stray pasture]

Agian just because AI presents it doesn't mean its any different from reading the docs or finding examples. AI just scowers the internet for you! - I am self taught and the past 6 years has lead me to more information than I ever had found in the past 17 prior.

[fringe ore]

Its addictive, you may need a small logic/ math help and then you cant go back. Your brain starts to wither furthering ais dominance plan

[fathom pelican]

I have the same thought. I don’t think transformer models will get us there. It’s flawed. Once they realize this the world economy is coming crashing down…

[near raptor]

We are pretty far off from AGI. It might feel like we are close, but GenAI is not even close to AGI

[prisma agate]

Ye I was actually considering waiting for a bit to purchase a GPU for prices from AI to crash, but it'd probably take at least 1-2 years to crash

[tidal mauve]

yeah i love solving math problems myself.

we also have entire department responsible for writing up math algorithms for stuff.

so ig those guys will be cut ahead of me 💀

(noone is gonna get cut, this company doesnt fire people unless they really screw up)

[fathom pelican]

I feel like you work at a government company. They tend to be like that

[stray pasture]

This is true! I on the other hand hate the puzzle problems and REALLY enjoy architecting large systems. - If I could design systems and tell somebody to go write them I would be the happiest man alive. 😄 (Currently I get to do both where I am at now)

[fathom pelican]

How to not get fired. Step one. Work at a South Korean company

[tidal mauve]

to each their own man

[prisma agate]

Governmnet/bank/military/security firm/nasa etc

[fringe ore]

I prefer being the one that uses no brain power but screams in bold when it doesnt understand my wants and needs

[tidal mauve]

its awesome when your job brings you joy

[fathom pelican]

Ahh the “vibe coder”.

[tidal mauve]

and that's what counts

[fringe ore]

Lol more of a joke, but just so busy I dont get that much time to code lol

[prisma agate]

Vibe coder is such a bad term, I have such a vibe when I code without AI vs with AI lmao

[stray pasture]

I aspire to be a know it all - sounds weird but I want to absorb everything I can! - IF you need information, I want to be that guy who understands and knows the next steps. (However, implementation is surprisingly not my strong suit) - Not bad just not complimentary. 😛

[prisma agate]

Same, I love learning random ah things I find interesting and being able to talk with people about them

[fathom pelican]

Just ordered a pizza for $25 and got the equivalent of 5 slices from 2020 💀 what is happening to the world

[tidal mauve]

ig in proper terms im a mid now, but i was mostly just given a somewhat detailed plan on how a thing should work and then grinded away at it until it was done. Next project i think ill be much more responsible for the architecture, but we will see when we get there

[stray pasture]

My gawd!

[tidal mauve]

im looking forward to it and sketching up plans

[stray pasture]

I am a Jr, sounds like they are looking to push me up. But I am the sole responsible one for our build pipeline and architecture as well as internal tools (I may have been the only to volunteer...) - But I get to lead my own charge

[fringe ore]

They found out you will still pay regardless of the price

[tidal mauve]

i tried leading some charges haha but this company is super slow on the uptake so not much achieved in that regard

there are a couple of systems im entirely responsible for, but they only span our department

[sacred tulip]

Hytale is less expensive than a pizza

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah, nah my company lacks that "Planning" phase. It is the I want this cool next week we are doing it. 😛 - Startup energy by like

[sacred tulip]

That's a good thing

[stray pasture]

I will eat Hytale

[prisma agate]

Leaked rumors confirm supporter edition of Hytale comes with 8 slices of pizza

[stray pasture]

Old stale and moldy - Was set for 2018

[tidal mauve]

best before 2019

[near raptor]

Cursebreaker edition is the price of an XL pizza

[tidal mauve]

i posted it in the other server, but since we all here technically are Java developers one way or another

Dylan Beattie released a fun cover past week which many can relate to
https://youtu. be/p03oO_7sCaY

this man rocks

[stray pasture]

I will never! 🙃 😄

I don't have an issue with Java, I literally never use it 😂

[tidal mauve]

well on januray 13th youll probably have to pick a flavor of it

[stray pasture]

I will, then I will write me an adaptor and go right back to C#. 😄

[tidal mauve]

[stray pasture]

One language less mental fatigue! 😛

[tidal mauve]

i saw someone a couple of days ago mention mixins here, probably gonna start modding with those instead of api

[prisma agate]

Banger, everything wrong with the java mentallity in a music video

[tidal mauve]

well i did java for a few years but none of my projects grew big enough to face any of those

[prisma agate]

I write java very not "idiomatically", I use a ton of static (so basically just normal functions) and use classes as namespaces

[tidal mauve]

static abuse

[prisma agate]

And I basically never use inheritance, I only have plain old data classes (or whatever the proper name is)

[near raptor]

static abuse!

[little shore]

I might look at hiring some devs for a server if people are interested

[prisma agate]

Ye it's funny that there is a "static abuse" term, like that's a good thing to do lol

[tidal mauve]

i dabble in commissions if you need stuff done

[prisma agate]

If it's paid I'd be down to help

[sacred tulip]

Some IDEs can't compile C# projects, tooling restricted to Microsoft's editors

[stray pasture]

I am a Rider boy. 😄

[sacred tulip]

I have 5+ years in hytale experience

[tidal mauve]

you can static abuse for your personal projects as much as you need, but the moment your project is part of something bigger e.g. is a plugin/mod, you having things hang around in static variables becomes a liability

[fleet isle]

Me looking at my neovim setup on Arch Linux btw...

[near raptor]

Only 5 years? I got experience since December 10, 2018. Almost 7 years!

[sacred tulip]

Apparently the tooling is bad on Mac also

[little shore]

I remember the creator of a language being asked for 10 years of experience 1 year after it came out

[tidal mauve]

I wish there were more IDE options tbf.
i hate jetbrains with a passion and i want to move away from visual studio

[prisma agate]

Based, r u gonna use eclipse jdtls I assume?

[tidal mauve]

but at this rate i might as well make a notepad++ plugin and build from there

[prisma agate]

There are, neovim, zed, kate, sublime

[fleet isle]

Maybe I will see, lately this setup has been... not so stable

[near raptor]

IntelliJ gang

[tidal mauve]

oh right, i can make Eclipse build any language i want, should give that a go

[prisma agate]

IntelliJ is bloated and slow, but I used it for a while, but after I switched to a really fast IDE, it feels so bad using it again

[prisma agate]

Wait r u using eclipse?

[tidal mauve]

I was for the longest time for my java projects

[fleet isle]

I remember the times when I said Eclipse is better than IntelliJ... those were some interesting times

[tidal mauve]

Eclipse was better than intelliji for a good while

[prisma agate]

I have a friend that still uses it to this day, and he tried IntelliJ a few times and doesn't like it

[tidal mauve]

the thing about Eclipse

its not annoying to use. Stuff just works.

Intelliji has a button to literally restart itself because it might be broken

[prisma agate]

It does?

[tidal mauve]

which also actually helps half of the time

[near raptor]

Invalidate Caches & Restart

[tidal mauve]

which leads me to the numerous times intelliji randomly suffers on the simplest things

[prisma agate]

Oh that one, I think I only used it once

[near raptor]

I am really surprised that you are having so many issues with IntelliJ. I have used it for the past 8 years or so without running into major issues 🤷

[fleet isle]

yup, not being able to even have a stable dev environment with IntelliJ without it breaking once every third day or so

[prisma agate]

Ye same, when I used it I had no issues, other than it being slow

[near raptor]

Before that I had the please of using NetBeans

[tidal mauve]

i gave it a honest try multiple times.
last one at the start of this year, where it refused to update itself because im in sanctioned off country

[near raptor]

Ah yes, well that is a geographic misfortune

[prisma agate]

What r u guys doing to IntelliJ? it never broke for me lol

[near raptor]

Honestly the thing with IntelliJ is that you gotto keep it updated. If you don't, it does start to break down as newer versions of Java and Gradle and such are released.

[tidal mauve]

that is just bs policies. tools dont need to care on where you are or what you do.

[prisma agate]

They r probably legally obligated to if they r based in certain countries (probably the US)

For example I read Hytale's ToS and u can't do certain stuff if u live in Cuba, Iran or North Korea

[near raptor]

JetBrains is a European company, I think originating in Russia. But they moved out a while ago, I think their HQ is now in Czech Republic

[tidal mauve]

also friendly reminder that there is now a telemetry you cant opt out of without buying a license, which uploads them your project info such as file names and metadata

or did they roll that one back?

[prisma agate]

Oh is that also for IntelliJ? I got that notif about RustRover's non-comercial license, didn't know it was also for the "community" versions

[tidal mauve]

i think it was

[prisma agate]

Good thing I migrated my java development stuff to nvim

[tidal mauve]

anyway friendship ended with jetbrains

[fleet isle]

notepad, here we come /j

[past tree]

😂

[near raptor]

NetBeeeaaaaaaans I am coming back!

One moment, gotto spin up my Glassfish server on NetBeans so I can deploy my .war file

[tidal mauve]

fr though i should take a look at Eclipse again

last i remembered they had good policies and supported different languages

[fleet isle]

do we know the Java version for sure?

[near raptor]

Java 1.6 I think

Jokes aside, I think I saw 25 being mentioned here a few times, but haven't seen any official source

[fleet isle]

Are newer versions of Java backwards compatible with older versions?

[near raptor]

Yes

[fleet isle]

then in theory going with 25 should not break anything if they would be perhaps on Java 21

[near raptor]

As long as you compile to Java 21

Java 21 cannot run bytecode compiled in Java 25

But if they write the entire server in Java 21, you can run it with Java 25 just fine

[tidal mauve]

installed Eclipse. Such a nostalgia hit

[fleet isle]

Compiled and decompiled my first java project this year. I feel like I'm ready

[tidal mauve]

cant go wrong with java 17

[near raptor]

Java 17? Pretty ancient these days

[tidal mauve]

minecraft was running java8 until very recently

[near raptor]

"very recently"?

[tidal mauve]

ye

[near raptor]

It's been on 21 for years

Oh wait, I am mistaken. Spigot required Java 21 for a while, but seems like Minecraft itself indeed was still on 8

[bronze crater]

It’s been on 21 for about two years now tho…
Wasn’t 1.20 or 1.19 the version that updated Java versions?

[near raptor]

But either way, Java 8 is oooold. Wonder why they never made the switch sooner, newer Java versions run a lot better. Or at least have more advanced GCs

[tidal mauve]

feels like it was just yesterday

[fleet isle]

There could have been some library incompatibilities or something like that

[bronze crater]

Actually I think there were a few versions that used Java 17

[prisma agate]

It does, I am still considering java 21 to be "brand new", but now hytale is apparently using java 25

[bronze crater]

And then switched to Java 21

[near raptor]

Java 25 is brand new though, released only a month or 2 ago

[tidal mauve]

well that makes sense, because java 17 was lts and java 21 is lts

[near raptor]

Java's versioning system is weird. Not as weird as Minecraft's, but still weird.

[tidal mauve]

nah its just number go up

[bronze crater]

Bedrock and Java edition versions will never align 😭

[near raptor]

But why some LTS and some not

[tidal mauve]

LTS are the ones oracle provides enterprise support for iirc?

[prisma agate]

They dp have in between versions, u just never hear about them bcz they are small and nobody uses them

[tidal mauve]

makes sense to use LTS to capitalise on the support

[near raptor]

Oracle gotto make that bank yo

by sueing everyone that uses Java

[prisma agate]

And javascript

[bronze crater]

Wait oracle controls JavaScript??

[near raptor]

Ah yes, JavaScript, Oracle's most popular product that they still support greatly to this day

[prisma agate]

Yes they own the trademark

Although I am not opposed to suing people who use javascript

[bronze crater]

Guess it makes sense because JAVAscript

[near raptor]

It doesn't really make sense because they do nothing with the TM

[bronze crater]

But uh
Why are the names so similar anyways

[near raptor]

Historic reasons

Some company that made browsers back in the day was like "we like java, but need a script variant of it that can run in our browsers"

And then someone made JS in a few days

[prisma agate]

Initially javascript was actually very similar to java, it was a scripting version of java (it still kinda is, it's just that people don't write it like java)

[bronze crater]

But couldn’t Java already run as a web applet

[true socket]

im considering trying eclipse because intellij's maven support just like really doesnt like me

[prisma agate]

I don't remember exactly but it was supposed to work with applets together

[fleet isle]

it probably could but was very inefficient and thus they wanted something lighter

[near raptor]

JavaScript is 1995, back then not sure if Java applets were a thing already

[fleet isle]

Java Applets were apparently released the same year

[tidal mauve]

give it a try and if you dont like it you can always uninstall

[near raptor]

I just read so, yeah.

[prisma agate]

They were released together I think?

[true socket]

i might try vscode first since it would be nice to have one ide support litterally everything

[prisma agate]

Noooo, vsc*de is really bad, try zed or something instead

[tidal mauve]

makes sense but also when you have a lot of stuff in one vscode, it gets annoying quickly

[fleet isle]

Based on what I'm reading I don't think so as Java Applets had more access to hardware acceleration than JavaScript. Therefore in theory there is a universe where Java Applets won over JavaScript

[true socket]

how does it get annoying? i havnt tried it

[tidal mauve]

eh not sure how to explain it.
too many settings, too many buttons, half of them you dont care about but they are still there becose of some plugins you need to do that one thing in different language

[true socket]

oh, fair enough

[tidal mauve]

and sure you can hide them away or disable them and surely there is something to manage it across different languages or projects

[true socket]

the only reason i want to get away from intellij is becasue it keeps failing to resolve maven central dependencies in the IDE but works completly fine in the CLI or even when compiling from the ide, i might just try to like ask support or something

[tidal mauve]

have you tried the magic button

[true socket]

i have tried all of the magic buttons

[tidal mauve]

invalidate caches and restart

[true socket]

tried that, tried reinstalling, hell i had the same thing on my laptop
i mean at this point its more likely to be user error but i have no clue how

[prisma agate]

Did u try refreshing the maven thing

[true socket]

yes i tried refreshing the maven thing

[bronze crater]

So I heard that there’s no client side mods
If all mods are server side does that mean that people don’t need to download stuff manually when they join servers

[stray pasture]

Reading this from a person who doesn't work in java, I am so entertained. 😄 "The maven thing" and the "Magic button"

[prisma agate]

Correct, it does download it for u automatically though

[stray pasture]

Correct, but it also means we lack information of the extent for how far plugins can go. 😄

[prisma agate]

For things like textures/assets

[viscid wren]

HYTALE legendary game

13 jan leeees goo

[bronze crater]

Well, can’t mess with rendering is one thing I can think of

But I mean
Main game logic and world gen and npc are all server side

[stray pasture]

Yeah, that would be a very good assumption. But if data driven we may have a TON of flexibility - Primtive information exposure such as transforms, velocity, etc could go VERY far (May not need to execute code on the client given primitives are communicated properly!) - Thought of that last night

[tidal mauve]

its more of the intelliji thing tbf.
the magic button just restarts the thing and cleans cache, because intelliji still manages to break itself and needs user intervention from time to time

maven thing is basically check pom and redownload missing/mismatching stuff

[stray pasture]

"thing" and "magic" - Words to my ears! Legendary!

[tidal mauve]

ikr

[near raptor]

The gradle thing does the brrr and then the jar magic go into file stuff

[stray pasture]

See usually "thing", "magic" and those words typically cause me a headache! - But man do I enjoy reading conversations that sound like a coded language.

[tidal mauve]

i feel ya

but entire intelliji experience for me so far is that "things" "automagically" dont work the way i expect or need them to

[near raptor]

This sounds rough, but could it be due to a lack of experience with IntelliJ? :p

[tidal mauve]

sounds like a poor ux design to me

[stray pasture]

See usually people just shorten that to:
"Skill issue" 😄 - Your way was much more elegant.

[prisma agate]

Also I read the ToS and EULA and there are some stuff I don't really like there, mainly:

• Granting Hytale a license to use UGC/mods however they want, and we can't revoke it even after termination of ToS (but we keep ownership)
• Hytale itself only gives us a license for the game, we don't own it, but they can revoke/terminate it at any time (would be fine if it was only for the online play, but it seems to include the game itself, even singleplayer)
• There are some restrictions on servers which are in most cases fine, but there are some weird rules like servers must be "balanced" and no NSFW (which for some private servers I think is fine, obv not for servers with kids)
• Reversing the client is not allowed (I get it but annoying, bcz there is some cool stuff u can do, like some guy working on adding shaders and post processing)

[bleak glade]

feck

[stray pasture]

Your not the only one

[prisma agate]

Whoever the lawyer they hired went too far imo

[near raptor]

The "can revoke license" thingy is actually quite common, unfortunately

[bronze crater]

steam, for one

[prisma agate]

Oh also totally forgot, the whole arbitration thing is kinda a shady move, discord also did it a while ago (also does it apply just to US/Canada or worldwide? should I mail their email to opt out?)

[stray pasture]

Well Steam doesn't own any game, they have no right to provide ownership

[granite raptor]

It's just normal things I think

[stray pasture]

Who doesn't do it?

[tidal mauve]

iirc arbitration isnt worldwide? not a lawyer

[bronze crater]

ok but gog

[stray pasture]

Gog cannot remove your games. That is an installation thing (licensing is still apart of your agreement with the game)

[prisma agate]

I only knew about discord doing it, Hytale is the 2nd ToS I saw with that thing

[tidal mauve]

disney does it

[bronze crater]

disney and that one guy who signed up for a disney plus free trial 3 years before was a whole thing

[stray pasture]

Oh, its is standard for almost any service Disney, X, etc

[prisma agate]

I don't use DIsney/X so I haven't read their ToS

[stray pasture]

Well somewhere in my long post Discord or Hytale flagged a swear word... (There aren't any)

[prisma agate]

Also happened to me, I just gave up on sending that message lol

[stray pasture]

Well basically UGC is my complaint its the reason why Mojang can remake mods from Java to bedrock and sell them, same for maps.

[prisma agate]

binary search through that until u find which word it was

[stray pasture]

Its probably some slur that I have never heard of and wont recongnize or something.

[prisma agate]

I am interested to know what the word is now lol

[prisma agate]

Yea whoch is londa sty (bad), a ton of ppl just ripoff java mods with no permission and make a ton of money on it (I think it even happened with the aether mod)

[bronze crater]

faithful texturepack flashbacks

also yes it did happen with aether mod iirc

[prisma agate]

Ye also that

[tidal mauve]

yeah but then what if someone makes a mod which fits well into the game and makes it paid

and hytale wants to add that as a vanilla experience

having that point allows them to not care and i understand why they want that

[stray pasture]

"Ripping" off is different from just taking it and making it apart of the game. 😄 - Though Mojang never allowed sale of plugins or mods. That was considered DONATIONS. 😄

[tidal mauve]

its just i dont agree with it

[stray pasture]

4.2 Interoperability Exception. Nothing in this EULA limits your rights under applicable law to conduct reverse engineering solely and to the extent necessary to achieve interoperability between the Game and independently created software, provided such activity is strictly limited to what the law permits and does not disclose or misuse our proprietary information.

This I am intrigued in - as far as I understand you can make tools and may reverse engineer the app to allow that? Idk

[near raptor]

It would highly surprise me if, at this stage, Hytale would steal a mod and add it to the game without permission from the mod author. Whilst they may be allowed to do that by their EULA, that would result in huge drama.

[near raptor]

This sounds like you can create your own server software, "to achieve interoperability between the Game and independently created software"

Or other kinds of tools, possibly

[true socket]

this is.... interesting

3.4 Ownership of Mods. As between you and Hypixel Studios Canada, you retain ownership of your Mods, solely to the extent they consist of your original creative work. To the extent your Mods are used with or shown within the Game or the Service, you grant Hypixel Studios Canada a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to host, reproduce, adapt, modify, create derivative works, display, distribute, and use your Mods for any purpose as we may determine is necessary to operate and promote the Game and the Service. This license is separate from and in addition to the license you grant to us in the Terms for "User-Generated Content" (as defined in the Terms).

so they can just like... steal your mods

[tidal mauve]

hey its not stealing if they "had it already somewhat done but not ready"

[near raptor]

I interpret this as "you remain marked as the author, but we can do whatever we want with it"

[dusky plume]

i can understand it, theyre freely allowing you to mod it

[tidal mauve]

create derivative works doesnt even have to mark you as author

and for example lets say they want to use my mod as an advertisement for hytale.
personally i would want that to be actually talked through with me

as is, i already "agreed and allowed in any shape or form with or without credit"

[wanton ore]

compare it to minecraft's EULA:
`The Microsoft Services Agreement says “Your Content remains Your Content”, and that applies to Minecraft. We don't own the original stuff that you create. We will however own things that are copies (or substantial copies) or derivatives of our property and creations - but if you create original things, they aren't ours. So, as an example:

a single Minecraft block (including its textures and its “look and feel”) - we own that;
your creation of a Gothic Cathedral with a rollercoaster running through it - we don't own that.`

[tawny apex]

Completely necessary in the wake of some of the absurd behaviour of past modders.

[true socket]

how is it neccesary for hypixel studios to be able to reuse your mods without your permission (other than accepting the eula/tos)?

[tawny apex]

They're hosting and distributing them.

[bronze crater]

Oh right

[true socket]

hytale doesnt host player content themselves, you host your own servers

[bronze crater]

weren't they gonna host mod downloading platform

[tawny apex]

You haven't seen the talk about hosting a mod portal, have you?

[tidal mauve]

whats that got to do with derivative works and modifications

[true socket]

no i havent

[tawny apex]

Any modification to the assets you post to the mod page can potentially be programmatically modified when serving the content to users, for one.

[stray pasture]

This makes a lot of sense. I hadn't heard that until new

[tawny apex]

Whoops, that's mangled, Any assets you post to the store page

[tidal mauve]

im pretty sure if it was for hosting the mod on the store page, it wouldve more explicitly mentioned the purpose

as is you allow them to do whatever they want without action from your side

[wanton ore]

yeah it talks about using your content for promotion or ads or derivative content or anything really

not just enforcing asset store rules

[tawny apex]

Look into the Steam Workshop terms, and you're going to find they're eerily similar.

[true socket]

whatever it was intended for they still have the permission to just like yoink

[tawny apex]

Yeah.

[tidal mauve]

steam workshop terms are separate from steam terms though

[tawny apex]

But considering modders that actively break users hardware because they decide to use other mods at the same time 🤷‍♂️

[true socket]

none of this really matters anyway since they wouldnt do that because i dont think the playerbase would be very happy if hypixel studios just starting taking and modifying player content to use as theirs
but its still annoying that they could

[stray pasture]

Do note these are IN there not because it WILL be used but because of protection.

[bronze crater]

but here's steam workshop:
When you upload your content to Steam to make it available to other users and/or to Valve, you grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, for the purpose of the operation, distribution, incorporation as part of and promotion of the Steam service, Steam games or other Steam offerings, including Subscriptions. This license is granted to Valve as the content is uploaded on Steam for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights.

[tidal mauve]

if they wouldnt do it then they should just write so

you can say whatever you want but what matters is what you signed off on

[stray pasture]

Protection, they may need to for exceptions

[jaunty shoal]

Have they made the developer pna summary post yet???

[wanton ore]

that's a fair point. I don't think hypixel studios will be stealing the community's work anytime soon.

[tidal mauve]

thats only when you upload to steam workshop though.

if you dont use workshop you dont agree to this.
here the situation is different - making ANY mod allows them to do this.

[true socket]

they won't
but still its annoying that they can

[jaunty shoal]

I got the name Block and Jarod as a username reservation 🙂

[prisma agate]

At least from what it says here, it doesn't say irrevocable, so if u remove ur UGC they can no longer use it

[wanton ore]

ikr

[prisma agate]

Hytale says "irrevocable" so once u gave it, they can use it forever

[tidal mauve]

basically:
Steam is a bad example because it only applies to what you upload to their platform.
Hytale though it applies to anything you ever make available as a mod

[prisma agate]

Block is cool, I got Virtual and Memory, did anybody else get a cool name?

[wanton ore]

here is what steam says about it

This license is granted to Valve as the content is uploaded on Steam for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights. It may be terminated if Valve is in breach of the license and has not cured such breach within fourteen (14) days from receiving notice from you sent to the attention of the Valve Legal Department at the applicable Valve address noted on this Privacy Policy page. The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license.

[tidal mauve]

i never received a token even though i should've

[fleet isle]

Where are y'all getting these tokens?

[wanton ore]

I thought so too, turns out it's in the hyperlink of the "create account" button from the riot email

[tidal mauve]

you had to be on the mailing list or in beta signup

[wheat cipher]

i got vcr

[prisma agate]

I got one from my current email, and my old email (from 2019) I only got after a few hours

[tidal mauve]

ACTUALLY i just went and checked and i just received my reservation token email half an hour ago

[prisma agate]

I should've made more alts

[fleet isle]

it's been more than 24 hours since I signed up and still nothing

[wanton ore]

nice

[wanton ore]

I'm happy with one

[prisma agate]

They do it based on when u signed up for the the mailing list/beta, if u haven't then you'd have to wait for pre orders

[bronze crater]

i got mine a few hours ago

[short bronze]

I claimed the name, punched

Not bad, all the good ones being gone ready is a shock

[prisma agate]

I really wanted void or code but it was taken 🙁

[bronze crater]

i forgot when i had signed up i was genuinely scared i didn't
but i remember i did it pretty early on and i'm glad i did

[jaunty shoal]

Little bit annoying that you could see what names were availibile before locking a selection in

[prisma agate]

Ye. void feels like it's super niche, along with a ton of programming related stuff like dev, null, linux, etc, didn't expect people to grab those already, I thought most would focus on stuff like "bob" or "apple" or whatever

[radiant knot]

i got Hellboy name im happy

[prisma agate]

I accidentally locked memory bcz I wanted to see if it works

[tidal mauve]

hell yeah, reserved

[jaunty shoal]

Yeah thats how i got my name, Jarod

Just wanted to see if it was taken

Didnt actually want it lol

[prisma agate]

Ye bcz nobody will actually reserve it except u, it's kinda unique

[bronze crater]

i got my name
dont understand why it isnt capital but page says it can be capitalized at checkout

[prisma agate]

I also didn't reserve Kyren, it's a (somewhat?) rare name (I actually came up with it myself, then realized it was an actual name)
And if some1 claims that then it's fine by me

[short bronze]

Still a good one

[prisma agate]

Ye it's a good one but I don't vibe with how it sounds, so I wouldn't use it personally

[near raptor]

Username
Must be 3-16 characters and contain only letters, numbers, and underscores.
Usernames are case insensitive during reservation. The capitalization can be changed at a later date.

[prisma agate]

Could be an alt I guess, or can maybe see if I find some1 to trade it with for another name

[bronze crater]

i love how #game-discussion is jsut filled with people saying "i got my token" or asking "please can i have token" and here we are having a "civilized" discussion about it

[prisma agate]

Also "is X og"

[near raptor]

Oh god everyone is gonna claim the OG ones and the entire Oxford dictionary to then sell them later on

[fleet isle]

oh that was a bad idea to peek into that room

[prisma agate]

I wonder if they will regret allowing stuff like ___ or 123 lol

[near raptor]

I'd rather people here make money with making actual plugins and mods then all the username scalping

"hey kid, wanna buy the Hytale name 'Walking'? Only 50 dollaroos"

[hardy oracle]

They should have gone with the way discord handles names (username#code)

[prisma agate]

I don't plan to sell mine, I just wanted a cool name for myself, I am willing to only trade (not sell) memory bcz I don't like it

[fleet isle]

they no longer do afaik

[near raptor]

I also got the token email, but it didn't list the token, it only had a button to claim. I am sure the token is in the URL somewhere, but it is kinda smart they hide it

[hardy oracle]

Then no one would care as much and they could add a verified check mark or other symbol to YouTubers accounts

[prisma agate]

Doesn't work well for a game, u need unique names and u don't want to add random numbers at the end, it'd look ugly

[bronze crater]

xbox gamertag 💀

[sacred tulip]

I signed up with 5 different accounts first day possible never got a token

[hardy oracle]

They would be hidden on the gamer tag. Only visible when opening someone’s account

[near raptor]

I'll put my Minecraft UUID as username :p

[prisma agate]

It is in the URL, it's just &token=UUIDv4

[bronze crater]

ok but then the problem of impersonation

[hardy oracle]

Verified check mark or other symbol on verified YouTuber accounts or next to the gamer tag

[prisma agate]

So now u end up with 50 Jeffs in a lobby, and u don't know which one is which

[tidal mauve]

the multiaccount thing is wild though.
people gonna have different accounts anyway for ban evasion

[hardy oracle]

Awesome

[near raptor]

I wonder if you can have multiple licenses tied to one email address / account, that would be nice for switching between a main and an alt (for testing purposes on servers).

[tidal mauve]

that was explicitly answered as a yes

[hardy oracle]

That could create some funny scenarios

[prisma agate]

Yep, exactly why they did it

[near raptor]

Neat

[prisma agate]

Jeff: Hey, anyone want to team?
Jeff: yes!
Jeff: no!
Jeff: huh?

[fleet isle]

Oh I'm gonna need two licenses if I'm going to be doing multiplayer stuff. Gonna make sure stuff works properly when multiple players are online

[near raptor]

Jeff: my name is Jeff

[bronze crater]

but again, would be stupid in the case of moderation
"/ban jeff"
youd have to have an easy way to tell what their number is

[near raptor]

I'll probably get a Cursebreaker edition for my main (because I genuinly also want to support the game) and get a standard license for an alt

[prisma agate]

Oh dang it's 1am for me, I didn't even realize lmao, gn everyone

[hardy oracle]

Just add a way to easily access their account while in game like the point system in vrchat

[near raptor]

Oh fair, it's almost midnight here, I should also be heading out by now

[hardy oracle]

Or you could have the number tag appear in the tab menu (server list)

[formal burrow]

someone sadly took sudo, I wonder if "kickall" is taken

[near raptor]

true linux user

probably arch, btw

[formal burrow]

nah not a linux user

[lilac grove]

Ah cmon someone took Paradox

[bronze crater]

how would that work exactly
say jeff is building a not appropriate thing, and there's multiple jeff's
you wouldn't be able to look in server list if they had the same skin
and sure you could make a whole thing where if you right click a guy it shows their profile, but i don't want to accidently rightclick someone when im trying to open a chest

[lilac grove]

had to go with paradoxx

[silver cloak]

I got Architect

[bronze crater]

now you're leet haxxor tho lmao
paradoxx

[sharp lake]

I didn't get mine so I'm just waiting for the 53 days or whatever lol

[bronze crater]

well preorders open Saturday

[lilac grove]

Yea I was really wanting to get my name tbh, I have this name set since years now

[near raptor]

I never really understood the whole hype of these kind of usernames, same goes in Minecraft. I prefer to just be known by a unique name rather than a vague English word.

[silver cloak]

What are the odds you got 2 jeffs though.

[hardy oracle]

How about when you press a context button like F3 in Minecraft it shows the number tag next to everyone’s gamer tag. You can toggle it on and off with a button.

[sharp lake]

Yeah but 53.5 days is when the reservations expire

[near raptor]

Was username reservation not also part of pre-order itself?

[bronze crater]

well if they buy the game by then then you cant get it

[bronze crater]

it is

"Once pre-purchases go live, you will be able to create a game profile using your reserved usernames."

[sharp lake]

I can't get it either way if they buy the game lol
The idea is that they might not end up buying it

[near raptor]

Why not just pre-order then and get the name reserved for you? Or was it already taken

[sharp lake]

I just said this lol

[near raptor]

Oh I missed that, my bad

[silver cloak]

idk why they did that without buying the game

[sharp lake]

Getting a pre-order and reserving a different name would be worse than sniping the name if they don't purchase it

[lilac grove]

Oh I forgot I didnt try Parad0x and just went for paradoxx

[silver cloak]

pre order -> wait for name reservation -> everyone happy

[near raptor]

To be honest, Paradoxx is better than leetcode Parad0x

[sacred tulip]

They should assign names instead of letting us choose

[silver cloak]

Bad thing is that it doesn't let you check if the name is available.

[bronze crater]

you make a game account at purchase if im understanding this correctly

[silver cloak]

Yeah with purchase you confirm your name but if you don't buy the game, it expires in 56 days

[bronze crater]

evil hypixel studios be like: dystopia hytale

[near raptor]

I wonder if there is some sad person out there that took "Technoblade". But Hytale's team will probably take that away, or even block it completely from being reserved.

[bronze crater]

i understand this

[bronze crater]

i hope they did
and i hope they reserve "MrTechnodad" for his dad

[sharp lake]

They already confirmed that it's blocked

[near raptor]

Makes sense

[fleet isle]

they probably blocked most known ones from their Hypixel server

[near raptor]

Someone ought to claim "Mojang" though

[lilac grove]

I genuinely think it wouldve been better if they had the people first buy the game, while reserving the name when buying

Wouldve helped tons with scalpers

[near raptor]

I am not so sure, this route is also kind of preventing scalpers, as you'd need to have signed up previously

[silver cloak]

Yeah, the very very best you just put prio for people that bought the most expensive version. aka the extreme supporters

[near raptor]

Gives those who have been waiting for a looong time the ability to at least get their own name

[lilac grove]

nah not even that, just pay and get their name. Like genuinely.

[silver cloak]

someone got 5 names reserved

[near raptor]

You wouldn't have known 8 years ago that those beta signups would''ve been used like this now. Some people might have been lucky, sure

[silver cloak]

All you had to do is just make an account and be lucky, nothing else. It doesn't have any prio or anything

[sharp lake]

I've been following Hytale but didn't want spam emails so LOL

[lilac grove]

Thats the thing, some people who registered back in 2019. Didnt even get their tokens, and I who registered yesterday, got mine just now.

[near raptor]

Oh huh, I thought it was only those who signed up ages ago

[fleet isle]

How? What?

[silver cloak]

At the end of the day it didn't matter

[lilac grove]

Idk, the entire system is just weird.

[silver cloak]

I got an email from my registered hypixel account. The one I subbed in 2019 hasn't received an email

[bronze crater]

what did the email look like
i think its different for if you signed up from riot

[near raptor]

Now I am confused as to which email I signed up with all those years ago

[fleet isle]

Nevermind, just as I said that I got an email LMAO

[sharp lake]

The only emails I have to/from Hypixel are asking for my forum account to be deleted lmfao

[lilac grove]

Yep

[zealous cairn]

I registered im 2019 and I still have the OG confirmation email, where can I get my username code?

[near raptor]

Oh I signed up with the same email all those years ago. Well, no clue if I got a token from back then or if I got it from creating an account yesterday

[bronze crater]

it should appear there soon

[lilac grove]

You dont, they send you it

[lilac grove]

I cant post images sadly

[zealous cairn]

Ohh, okay 👍

[fleet isle]

It looks very similar to the verify email email

[silver cloak]

You have to make an account and wait

[lilac grove]

also it seems like they are just sending them out rn to people who prob registered

[bronze crater]

i also got another one for signing up yesterday
i have two????
one from all those years ago and one from when i made account yesterday

[lilac grove]

aye nice

[zealous cairn]

Do they send it like once a day or like a short time after making the account?

[bronze crater]

i can tell the difference because one was from riot saying "hytale bought back from original owners" and this one is just hytale branded

[lilac grove]

I mean you can give the other reserve code to someone else

When you hover over the button, it tells you the code in the link it takes you to

[silver cloak]

it's random :/

[bronze crater]

it's not tied to email? huh

[lilac grove]

nope

the token is in the link, if you just copy the link it takes you to. You can take the token out and give it to someone

[sharp lake]

nice, you could give to a friend

[fleet isle]

if it would be, how come people have 5 usernames reserved

[near raptor]

I do have a genuine concern with their account system though. I enabled 2FA, but there is no backup codes system

So lose your 2FA code, lose your account

[lilac grove]

how is that possible, its by default in any 2fa system to generate backup codes

[fleet isle]

seems like it's a custome one

[zealous cairn]

Is there a way to see if a username is already taken, before getting the token?

[bronze crater]

no

[lilac grove]

sadly not, I wanted Paradox and ended up getting Paradoxx. Which is fine tbh, ive been using weirder names

[glass fox]

I havent gotten one yet can I have one? you dont have to give

[zealous cairn]

Aren‘t the tokens tied to the account?

[near raptor]

Dont think so, that wwould kinda defeat the point of them

[silver cloak]

multiple accounts registered

[bronze crater]

im giving it to my friend sorry

[vernal furnace]

@silver cloak pls add if possible

[sacred tulip]

Are all the dictionary words taken already I really wanted snow

[clear osprey]

Most likely a lot are. I also tried to get Ice, Snow, Frost, Gaia, and a few others but they were all claimed quickly.

[sacred tulip]

I signed up for beta where is my token?

[granite hearth]

Y’a des francais ici ?

[humble bronze]

Gone, Simon said that if riot lost your email in their listing your SOL

[fathom pelican]

i thought that went out to everyone so i rushed to reserve my name, in the hurry i just put in my nickname. shouldve tried SQL injection or something smh

gotten everyone a token

[fallow burrow]

I got my token, i registered in 2019.

[opaque sedge]

i did back on 2023 and didnt receive it either

[sacred tulip]

If you have previously signed up for the Hytale beta or Hytale/Hypixel newsletters, we will be sending you an email to reserve your username. Bear in mind, there are millions of emails being sent, so we are slowly rolling them out throughout the week.

Hopefully they didn't lose mine and it's just lower on the list

[tropic beacon]

same. I applied as soon as I had heard about the game back then...

[fathom pelican]

seeing game-disussion channel people have such cool ideas

wish they allowed changing a name with the same token because now i have better ideas

if everyone can change then maybe someone who didnt get theirs might find it open later

[humble bronze]

Guys hear me out, launch is actually Friday.

There was 0 mentions of name tokens until now. Everyone was under the impression pre-orders were for name reservation. This has now left pre-ordering useless especially if they don’t expire until “launch” anything from the founder packs is available into early access

Who releases a game with this much traction on a Tuesday? They don’t. See you guys in game on Friday

[stray pasture]

This sounds unlikely.

[zenith mist]

My name got snatched and im creator xd through stuff like social media :/ sucks that it wont be mine lol. Worst part is, that my token when I got my email xd it said invalid token and idk why.

[sacred tulip]

Maybe but I doubt it

[fathom pelican]

i shoulda just sold my token and used it to buy some taco bell

[stray pasture]

They require time to test, package and ship, but also to get accounts and what not up to snuff. - Likely to get their minigames/servers running aswell. Definitly not enough to for that yet

[old moon]

I am lucky that I got my username, then again it’s not a username anyone would really go for lol

[fathom pelican]

this is me. i didnt know name res were such a big deal so i just whatevered it haha

[zenith mist]

My mc user is Zen

It has a rep so I garuntee someone is planing to scalp me for it.

[old moon]

Like I just got “huskydreaming” which isn’t an amazing name but it’s a username I have been using for over three years now

[stray pasture]

Glad you got it now it surly would have been taken on release. 😄

[old moon]

I knew husky would be taken instantly

[old moon]

Yeah 🙌

[stray pasture]

Nobody types "SirNiklas"... 😛 (At least no game I have played)

[old moon]

Niklas sounds like a very European name

[stray pasture]

It is! - But if that is taken I go ult mode and its "S1RN1KL4S" 🙃

[old moon]

Haha nice! Yeah that def works

[fathom pelican]

this is so gamer i made it to diamond while reading

[stray pasture]

But sometimes you gotta get fancy so that is where you introduce your inner 12 year old kids XBox user... "xXS1RN1KL4SXx" - 99.999% I get one of the three.

[fathom pelican]

sdhfksdfkj i shouldve used NEO dang it. hindsight 20/20

[stray pasture]

And that is the evolution of Xbox gamer tags! - Or you be a dork like me and change an AWESOME generated Xbox user name "ChasedSword" to some dorky one "Monkeyboy9967"... (Dark times)

This all TOTALLY pertains to plugin development, right?

[fathom pelican]

nah , game-discussion is just too salty for my taste right now

[old moon]

I managed to get Huski…

[fathom pelican]

happy for you

better than __husk_y247

[old moon]

Haha yeah

[fathom pelican]

so hear me out devs

[jaunty shoal]

They wont... I applied in 2019, got 1 newsletter email from them in 2019 and nothing since. Just got my username email a few hours ago

[fathom pelican]

hytale lets you delete your account, if they use a foreign key for auth -> user identity. it would probably trigger a cascade deletion. if the uuid for the token is tied to that identity it would technically become a valid uuid again. im not so brave though. unless its tied to the cascade too..

[jaunty shoal]

Im sure they have thought of this. Basics 101

[stray pasture]

I would say it would be a gamble (usually name reserv is not thoroughly thought through) - crude temp systems.

[sudden pond]

Is Hytale's modding scene going to be Java similar to Minecraft? Me and my friends probably want to get into modding since it sound cool like in Minecraft. We don't have any experience, but it's nice to know before hand.

[fathom pelican]

game-discussion is a blood bath

[stray pasture]

Yes and Java is likely one of the best "starting" language to dive into!

Teaches you more then python and Lua, but abstracts low stuff C++ and all. So a perfect spot

[fathom pelican]

what this person said, but also search up kotlin and choose

[stray pasture]

Oh actually choose Kotlin! - I forgot its an option. 😄

Java but modern!

[sudden pond]

Ah, it was me either gambling the language was going to be Lua like Roblox or Java like Minecraft. I'm at least happy it's Java since I heard it's a nice beginner language.

[fathom pelican]

ive tried to get into java for enterprise development for oracle systems at work...never could

[stray pasture]

Im sorry.

[fathom pelican]

thank you..

[stray pasture]

For some weird reason:
Java = Cozy grandmas cottage
C# = OCD Sterile hospital

I am likely the only one who thinks this. But that is the feeling I get...

[fathom pelican]

mmm i get it, i love c# because it feels kinda stiff in a good way

[stray pasture]

The stiffer the language the better!

[alpine patrol]

gimme that cozy grandma cottage

java will always have a special place in my heart. ALWAYS

[rich solar]

Just migrated to pelican panel and damn was that easy

[fathom pelican]

im not gonna google, but rather ill test my asumption skills. is pelican panel some sort of backend CMS / server management thing for Java?

[unreal oriole]

Hi guys, one question I've never seen done in Minecraft on servers is custom keys, for example, clicking "h" to open the server menu and go to the spawn, minigames, etc. Surely, that's not possible for Minecraft's infrastructure? With Hytale, will it be possible instead of using the "slash" commands, home, etc.?

[rich solar]

Its a game server panel that uses docker. Its a fork of Pterodactyl panel

[sand shard]

there is literally custom menus on mc servers that have several stuff on them 👁️ 👄 👁️

[rich solar]

He means action-able menus from hotkey

[unreal oriole]

yes yes no but no I mean with the buttons and not relying on single items like the book to open the menu!

[fathom pelican]

so language agnostic ? thats cool. will keep that in mind when making servers for friends

[kindred crescent]

I would assume so but it's only assumptions

[sand shard]

oh u saying like minecraft ESC original menu rather than like u clicking on items and that being menu ?

[unreal oriole]

for example fivem with the keys where you can set the button to close the machine open menus etc without a trigger item!

[rich solar]

The answer is they do plan to allow calls to the client for binding. However, rather we can or can't we wont know until later next month but its likely we will get some form of key control

[unreal oriole]

yes press j to respawn

example

[sand shard]

so keybinds/hotkeys is what ure trying to refer :d

[unreal oriole]

Perfect, I imagined it. Let's hope it's in the plans. I think it's important for the minigames! I was thinking something like LOL with B for respawn, etc.

[unreal oriole]

yes yes exactly however avoid making a thousand item triggers or writing commands and use the usual slash help for the list and have a button that opens a menu and do everything from there!

[sand shard]

id assume that already exists for the game as its not direct copy of minecraft

[rich solar]

Most likely it will be related to how the server interacts with the client so we may not get it right away in EA. But it is a feature many people have asked about and will most likely be added to the dev tools or API calls (If its not already available)

[sand shard]

ill literaly refund if it doesnt lol

[unreal oriole]

Let's hope so, because from the trailers you could see that you could modify things like the camera and set the buttons to your own settings. I think it would be really useful for minigames! Like clicking the B button and opening the shop while you're in-game, etc.!

[rich solar]

even if we can't right now. I know enough people will want to be able to do that. And Hypixel has already told us that if there is something missing that we want we can pester them for it haha

[unreal oriole]

I haven't heard of it, I hope it's in the plans of those who create servers, I'm really sick of the /home that's typical of servers

[kindred crescent]

It would be important for game modes that do not use the typical controls, so it's important at some point

[unreal oriole]

I'm wondering if for example you click M in a server will it open the game map even if you're in a lobby?

[rich solar]

I mean worst case since the client and server need to communicate for everything... You could always capture the inputs and overwrite info on it. This was a trick in Bungee I had to use for proxy based guis. that could open gui's on any server in the proxy without needing to build the gui in each instance.

But who knows. We will know everything once the modding docs are out 😄

[unreal oriole]

really interesting hahaha a new adventure begins then, anyway let's also talk about the fact that the servers where they enter download packages that plugins and mods so for the worst case scenario the plugin commands will be implemented with the mod that gives you custom keys!?

[rich solar]

I cant wait to download mods and have a bunch of conflicting keybinds... ATM10 Im looking at you -_-

[unreal oriole]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[unreal oriole]

As many times as I've created modpacks between conflicts and other outfits, I'm really curious about the limits of hytale in mods!hahahaha

[kindred crescent]

As long as we can keep the menu key untouchable

[rich solar]

Nah overwrite every key to open a market. >:)

[kindred crescent]

Prevent players from leaving the server so that you get more players

[unreal oriole]

I actually didn't think about what I could do! But guys, let me tell you that in no game are you going to modify ESC.

[rich solar]

Whelp Im going to finish my Discord Shop integration/bot to my database and go to sleep. Yall have a goodnight/morning/day

[unreal oriole]

I don't think you can modify esc in any game! In minecraft I don't think you can even do it with mods?

[rich solar]

Its not possible due to how systems work. But it was mainly a joke either way 😛

[unreal oriole]

no no but not even on fivem so I think it is basic if you want to implement a custom bind

[unreal oriole]

also because I don't think it's peaceful to create a server to block them inside the server...

[rich solar]

I mean its due to how Kernal/User mode works. Games/Apps...etc. run in Ring 3 usually which is user mode. Which has restriced access. And we have SAS Secure attention Sequence, which in windows Ctrl Alt Delete which is a SAS. Windows is designed so that when the Kernel detects Ctrl+Alt+Del, it pauses everything else and opens the security screen. This path is hard-coded deep in the OS; a game running in "User Mode" literally cannot touch it because it happens at a privilege level the game cannot access.

Games often run in Exclusive Mode, which gives them direct access to the graphics card and allows them to cover up the taskbar and hide the mouse cursor.

This is why it feels like the game has taken over. It is intercepting most of your inputs (mouse clicks, standard keys like W, A, S, D) before the desktop sees them. However, special shortcuts like Win+L (Lock Screen) or Ctrl+Alt+Del are "reserved hotkeys" that the OS checks for before passing the input data to the game.

[unreal oriole]

I don't understand why you brought up the Windows kernel topic... anyway, it's ok, also because I repeat, we have a FiveM demonstration on custom bind....

[unreal oriole]

But then, since there's the possibility of combining mods and plugins, since one or the other has to download packages when entering a server, when you enter custom commands you create them, given the infinite number of keys in a Minecraft modpack! But maybe you were having fun talking about how to trap people inside the servers....

[rich solar]

Since we wont have access to the client we will most likely have something similar to fiveM with RegisterKeyMapping. So since we will have to register we will probably see a conflict handler for duplicate binds..etc. And they will most likely not allow us to overwrite keys like esc like you said.

Roblox also has a few ways for key bindings. They are gross. But they work without interacting with the client. So lets hope hytale will do good on this.

[unreal oriole]

but you will have the option, the mods regardless need to have extra keys so as not to overwrite the pre-set ones!

It doesn't seem that impossible, but maybe I'm wrong, I don't know much about programming!

[late bough]

what usernames did yall get

I got rof

[old moon]

Huski

[fathom pelican]

J_C

[rich solar]

NullVoid

[quartz wave]

how do i get this token havent gotten an email yet

[fathom pelican]

Reading game-discussion chat this channel feels like the “we got cookies and milk” version

[fathom pelican]

It’s just luck. You register for an account and wait.

[rich solar]

I got one from Riot and one from hypixel

[quartz wave]

any updates on the sdk

[alpine patrol]

i need them cookies

i wont accept them tho

[neat socket]

HI

[sharp lake]

What does that mean LMFAO

[fathom pelican]

This channels more wholesome. Maybe the type of people that modding and development attract are inversely related to type of people willing to scalp usernames for profit.

[sharp lake]

Yeah, I've been kind of isolated here because I only really care about the plugin development so far
And then I went out there a few times and 💀
This is definitely the best channel I think
10 second slow-mode and a good chunk of the people are actually devs

[fathom pelican]

No.We are starving in here

[teal flame]

Yeah. A few other channels are sometimes chill. #exploration-mode has an actual discussion going right now. This channel has consistently been the most normal. But it's a bit inactive sometimes.

[rich solar]

Then you have the 50 daily what Language are mods in

[fathom pelican]

Ah yes. Classic

[wintry jolt]

Did you get the original email from Riot games about Hytale being re-acquired??

[fathom pelican]

But if people didn’t ask what language , how could I shill for kotlin

[fathom pelican]

Nah. I just found out through YouTubers and such

[sharp lake]

Speaking of that, what language are we thinking the plugins will be in? Since mods are gonna be in Java, what about plugins and stuff yknow /s

[fathom pelican]

Lmao

[rich solar]

Thats where I got my second token was from them lol

[wintry jolt]

Did you ever signup for the beta or newsletter?

[wispy stream]

I do hope we get a nice community going. I never felt like I quite had a place to hang with other spigot/paper devs. Their discords seemed very transactional to me, often. Optimistic, given all Hytale is going for

[fathom pelican]

Nope. I made an account through the hytale website 2 days ago. Got email a couple hours after go live for name registration

[teal flame]

Mods are in Java, but I'm assuming that plugins will be written in a mix of Python, Javascript, and Perl. /s

[sharp lake]

LMFAO fcking perl holy cow

[fathom pelican]

Then my anxiety got the best of me and rather than reserving GOD or NEO I just reserved my discord username. I’m just not a spontaneously creative person

[wintry jolt]

Oops I meant to reply to @quartz wave lol

[sharp lake]

I didn't get the name I wanted, so I'mma try to snipe it on Feb 1st
In case they didn't end up actually purchasing the game

[wintry jolt]

Will server plugins be writable in Java or C# anyone know yet??

[teal flame]

Eh, you're valid. I'm very disinterested in most "OG" usernames anyway. All my usernames are either ancient memes, in-jokes, or combinations of the two. Has to have some meaning.

[sharp lake]

Is this satire

[wintry jolt]

lol

[fathom pelican]

If it’s not it’s triple A rated bait

[sharp lake]

We literally were just talking about it, and it's in the channel topic
So you're either blind or joking

[wintry jolt]

Blind 😂😂

[sharp lake]

You were even typing in chat while we were talking about it 😂

[rich solar]

Make this the 51st from my comment above

[wintry jolt]

Question answered

[sharp lake]

A language adapter for C# plugins is hypothetically possible
But not worth the effort in my opinion

[fathom pelican]

I’ll make an adapter for JavaScript because I hate myself and humanity as a whole /s

[wintry jolt]

lol wasn’t even paying attention 😂

[novel yarrow]

I have think its only visual scripting

[sharp lake]

That's definitely not true
Visual scripting isn't their replacement for scripting or plugins

[novel yarrow]

Thats good

[wintry jolt]

I would love to see an adapter for JS or Jquery 😅

[sharp lake]

I think people were suggesting TypeScript or something

I think that would be a script engine though, not an adapter

But now it's getting kind of semantic 💀

[fathom pelican]

People calling each other poor for not being able to buy $500 usernames 💀

[sharp lake]

Scripting engine allows you to write scripts that are loaded at run-time
But plugins are compiled and loaded at startup

[sharp lake]

Maybe they should be calling eachother stupid for breaking the ToS 💀

It's not even out yet and they're gonna get their name banned

[wintry jolt]

I don’t want to learn C# for this but want so bad to get into the ground work of developing plugins for this game so for the sake of my sanity I really hope it’s some sort of Java, JavaScript, or Python mix.

[sharp lake]

It's Java

[teal flame]

Hopefully. They're not exactly being subtle about it.

[sharp lake]

They have a blog post out and everything, you can just read it lol

[wintry jolt]

Well the game engine is written in C# and Java

[sharp lake]

The client is C#, the server is Java

[wintry jolt]

Ahh understood

Thank goodness

[sharp lake]

Mods are all server-sided, so you won't need to worry about C# at all

[old moon]

☕

[fathom pelican]

At a certain age you realize you just use whatever gets it done. I used to be a “I want to use x language”. Proffesionally I use JavaScript / typescript. Don’t know anything on Java or kotlin but just gonna learn it. All languages at a low level do essentially the same. Just different levels of abstraction for convenience

I just use whatever pays for my Uber Eats order

[wintry jolt]

lol very well put

[sharp lake]

It's all terrible and it's bc I'm terrible at it
So what differences does it make what style of terrible I'm creating

😍

[fathom pelican]

insert meme of man writing pure fire on paper

[wintry jolt]

I’ve been using JavaScript/Typescript along with python for years now and I still feel like I’m terrible at it at times 😂

[fathom pelican]

Im going at 7 years and im still terrible. But it pays the bills.

[old moon]

c++ I would say is still my favourite, just because of the complexities

[fathom pelican]

As devs we can “smell” code quality at some point. And we really want it to look and be nice. But sooner or later you realize the client will never appreciate it or care enough so long as the customer can submit their stripe payment.

[old moon]

and c++ feels a bit more old school which I like

[wispy stream]

I dislike c++ for exactly the reason that I want it to look nice

[old moon]

javascript/typescript is just annoying, I hate the way imports work

[fathom pelican]

I respect anyone into c++. I’ve really given it an honest shot several times but the ecosystem is so segmented between legacy and modern c++ , and the level of freedom creates such large discrepancies in quality that makes it hard to jump in to what’s correct

[old moon]

../../../../../../../../../../../../

[wispy stream]

And it is so difficult compared to Java or C# or Kotlin to get a normative sense of what people like stylewise, because there are so many different opinions, more than any other language

[fathom pelican]

So did I but it’s been fixed. Now you can import like @/something/something else. Where @ is root directory.

[old moon]

Yeah that's true

I will have to say that I like c# the best as a language at the moment

[fathom pelican]

C++ is the language for opinionated people.

[old moon]

Especially when it comes to async

[fathom pelican]

As much as I dislike JavaScript at times I can say it’s really nice for async networking. Especially with the faster runtimes around now

[wispy stream]

I AM opinionated in Java and C# and Kotlin, exactly because I've read and absorbed others' opinions to give me a strong base on which to deviate slightly in ways that are minor to most people

In C++, trying to do that, I just got a headache

[fathom pelican]

I still remember when everything in JavaScript was var= “string”. All the kids today using let and const don’t know how good they have it. Now there’s types too

[wispy stream]

To be very clear, not knocking the language, it's just feature creep central haha

[wintry jolt]

Everyone has their own bias and opinions on each language but in the end each language has their own advantages and disadvantages but can be used for the same purpose either way. Just matters what your comfortable with really and how much time your willing to put into something where one language may shine better lol

[fathom pelican]

Wrong JavaScript number 1! Woohoo

[wintry jolt]

I personally actually develop PowerShell scripts professionally 😅 JavaScript/TypeScript and Python are just my hobby languages haha.

[fathom pelican]

Because it pays. I’m not a super fan of it but like. Everyone is web first now

[wintry jolt]

I write automation scripts for tech companies and since PowerShell 7 has been a thing and is cross platform it’s so much more complex but also so much better

[old moon]

I do backend development in java spring boot for an airline, that has kept me going for a couple of months. I am wanting something a bit more challenging though.

Perhaps join a game development company but uhhh... normally toxic and pay badly

[old moon]

There is a convenience with web though

No need to install application on your desktop, you can get started quickly

[fathom pelican]

That’s what makes me appreciate web technologies. How cool is it that you can build once and get it in front of users across all devices with a screen and an internet connection

[sharp lake]

Would be cooler if it didn't involve being the least efficient form of program 💀

[old moon]

Yeah and it's nice because you can login many different ways easily (not that you can't this this with applications but it's easier)

[old moon]

Depends how you run it on the cloud, can be super efficient but then it relies on a stable internet connection 🙁

[sharp lake]

Languages that can cross-compile into WebASM and stuff are going to be an efficient way forward
You want to actually have native applications, not just web engines everywhere

[sacred tulip]

I appreciate web technologies because you don't have to publish through the app stores which is a pain

[sharp lake]

No like, the difference between a text editor and a text editor in a web engine

[old moon]

Ah I see

[sharp lake]

You want to write in something that can compile to both, not just a web engine
So you basically never want to intentionally choose fckin TypeScript or whatever as your software's main language
Assuming you actually care about the energy and resource consumption of your suite

[old moon]

Yep and apple, microsoft, google take some of your revenue and by some I mean normally 15-30%

[sharp lake]

Something like Rust with a GUI library that supports the various targets would be among best choices

[fathom pelican]

Yeah realistically. My web apps atleast is 1 second time to content. The average person doesn’t care if the website takes 1 second to fully load.

[old moon]

Very true, I honestly don't care if it takes a second on a web app but I do care when you run an application and it takes a couple seconds to load

[fathom pelican]

A good “bad example” is any desktop app running electron. Dear lawd teams on desktop. Only one I’ve seen that’s serviceable is a clean install vs code

[sharp lake]

Electron apps are among the most garbage things for user experience ever lol
Discord, Spotify, and Steam are all terribly slow compared to real apps

Even VSCode was awful now since I think about it

[fathom pelican]

Electron will always hold a special place in my heart tho. Used it as a “mod tool” Trojan for a prank on a friend where it launched a c# script via shell that executed a remote hook to a server I had. Was fun kicking him out of his games remotely

[sharp lake]

If you try any editor that isn't a web browser, you'll be like "oh" LMFAO
The small slowdowns that stack up with literally every click ever are just awful

[fathom pelican]

Wonder what obsidian runs on. The note taking app. Use it on Linux and it’s pretty nice the last two years I’ve been using it

[sharp lake]

Lmao it's electron too

Idk whether it actually uses anything that warrants an electron app though
They could just be lazy, like everyone else

[primal shoal]

it wouldn't have such a wide plugin ecosystem if it wasn't using normal web tech

[vernal niche]

☕

[fast turtle]

Is the asset graph editor going to be editable? Like can we modify it to include more robust logic or external features

Also not really modding but will name apis ever be available

[vernal niche]

I don't think there were any statements about that in particular. I believe the graph editor is intended for directly in-game within the client so customization options might be limited. I could very well be wrong though.

[vernal niche]

Can you clarify that question?

[fast turtle]

Like name association with user uuid becoming available in an api so you can track igns

Anyways really hope the graph system is more robust or at least modifiable because it could really open a lot up

[empty nest]

Arabica 😂

[vernal niche]

That's a good question. I don't know. What I'm really hoping for is OAuth OpenID Connect with a nice lil JWT that gives me UUID and display name

[empty nest]

Why nitrado so expensive

[vernal niche]

Because we neither want to operate at a loss, nor do we want to overbook hardware and cause a bad experience on our servers.

But we're currently doing analysis if we can tweak prices for Hytale. Constantly doing playtests at the moment.

[hallow ferry]

Is Java the language of choice for plugins?

[west elk]

Yes. But Kotlin will also be possible (like any language that compiles to JVM bytecode)

[misty gyro]

server software is java and plugins will be written in any JVM language so you can also use scala if you want to xD

[neon tree]

Can you tell us about ram usage of hytale server like avarage (idle / with players)? Or your under NDA?

[vernal niche]

NDA baybeee.

This is somewhat of a moving target at the moment but our Hypixel colleages are preparing some info I think. Slikey has been talking about a manual.

[nova walrus]

imma make a plugin in jvm bytecode

[misty gyro]

hf

[nova walrus]

thanks

[misty gyro]

they mentioned problems with 56 players would be great to know which CPU and how much CPU usage + RAM they had to be able to prepare stuff for that 😄 as long as it is runnable < 4 GB I think thats "okayisch"

[neon tree]

Fair, will wait for when it early releases. Think 192gb be enough but yeah I wonder if it will support duo CPU

[misty gyro]

1 server = 50 GB kappa

[neon tree]

Can't wait to start porting my plugins over should be easy bc of my own framework but never know what the backend/api/library be like of hytale

[vernal niche]

I'd love to tell you about it, but that's for Slikey and his colleagues to answer 😅

[daring lodge]

RELEASE THE SDK OR SERVER JAR

i hope we dont have to setup servers on release

wont even have anti griefing plugins ready

[west elk]

What do you mean you don't want to setup servers?

[daring lodge]

i want to have server setup before hand

[west elk]

Oh yeah they've said that they don't want to release anything ahead of time because that would invite a bunch of unnecessary technical questions

[neon tree]

I doubt it, the game release doesnt mean you need to have a full working production ready multi-player server, first minecraft server also didn't have a core protect or anything related to it

Expect the first month a massive amount of people trying to make good plugins and even then a lot of issues will happen might be the plugins fault or events that dont work 100% yet (not reliable)

First server that you should create a friends only smp and continue and extend from there

[west elk]

The server itself won't be 100% stable yet either

[neon tree]

The positive is that we have modding/plugin support from the start and what will increasingly change and improve over time (what minecraft never had and relies on third parties to implement & maintain)

We as a community can help them find bugs for singleplater/server/modding/plugin api to make it more stable

[fallow burrow]

That's true, but I also think we live in completely different times than we did during the first Minecraft servers. I honestly can't wait.

[neon tree]

The best thing you can do is prepare by either making a framework that already knows how to store files and the "backend" logic that doesnt require game logic to work.

Best practice would probably be make minecraft server plugins (not mods) since you can expect a lot of similarities, like events (onjoin, onteleport etc) and registering commands and such (stuff that relies on existing server code, not new models/items)

[vernal niche]

JFYI it's now been decided that Nitrado will be open sourcing some base plugins that other plugin developers / hosters / self-hosters hopefully find useful. Nice things ahead 🔥

[tidal mauve]

thats cool and all but i dont really like it that you already get to play around with making stuff and i dont

[misty gyro]

so you have server software + already making plugins? 😄

[silver bronze]

Oh wait, Nitrado has access to Hytale already and that's what pricing is based on?

[vernal niche]

We're working with Hypixel, so we have some insights, but the pricing you see on our website was the very first draft based on initial impressions. We may be able to reduce it a little.

[vernal niche]

That's right, but to be clear, we are not trying to compete with plugin devs. Our goal is to provide some early references and base building blocks that others can build on top of, to make you all faster. So the stuff we do will have very specific, limited scope.

[misty gyro]

ya was just curious 😄 overall I think. there are many people already hyped to develop again for such a game

[silver bronze]

Very interesting to see! Obviously I have no access to your margins and such, but it's nice to be able to compare pricing and make some ballpark guesses on how the Hytale server will perform 😄

[fleet isle]

Thanks but I will do it myself. It's the best way to learn anything and fail at everything

[pallid night]

Here future server owner, i'll be trying find developers for it.

[radiant lily]

XD count me in, but I'm not sure this is the right place (or time) to recruit
Feel free to DM me about details, I'm intrigued

[delicate sphinx]

@pallid night could you elaborate via DMs?

[silver bronze]

Well what other place/time would you suggest? 😅

I'm interested too by the way, feel free to at least drop me a DM with some ideas you got!

[amber pawn]

is Nitrado the only hosting platform with this early access, or are other providers working ahead now too?

[west elk]

Apex likely has a similar deal but everyone else will get it up and running relatively quickly after release

[vernal niche]

Yep, Apex is also supporting the release in a similar fashion.

[amber pawn]

awesome, how did you guys secure the partnership if you don't mind me asking? that's pretty sweet!

[vernal niche]

I have an answer to that, but that would be putting words in Hypixel's mouth, so you'll have to ask them what has led to that decision.

We just do whatever we can to contribute to a successful launch, even if it's just very small contributions in comparison to the Herculean efforts of the Hypixel team

[amber pawn]

ahh I see what you mean. Awesome to see this game getting some support and likewise to see them supporting hosting platforms. thanks!!

[formal burrow]

it's a tragedy that someone genius took "sudo"

[red saddle]

It was quite the opposite for me, and now I'm sad.

It's common for C# devs to hate on Java anyway, inheritance mess, fake erased generics, terrible DX, etc X)

However, there is kotlin to solve a lot of things, since you can just use any jvm language.

[kindred crescent]

Pretty sure they already provide hosting for the Hypixel Network. So that makes sense, it's their trusted host that works well and that they know to be good 🙂

[manic pine]

yeah thats why im probably going with kotlin aswell, will be a small learning process but if that way i can skip java, im good lmao

[amber pawn]

That’s pretty neat!

[kindred crescent]

Yeah! Also very cool that they are going to make some plugins for the rest of us

[sharp lake]

This is actually great because the reference implementations for what I'd expect you all to work on would be fantastic to look at

[sharp lake]

It depends on how you mean modify, they have said this about their visual scripting

Programmers can extend and optimize this system by adding new visual nodes and performance-sensitive implementations.

[sacred tulip]

I don't know how I feel about this decision by the hytale team. More people probably enjoy programming than drag and drop editors and it increases the maintenance burden on hytale on release.

[sharp lake]

The idea is that their focus is going to be on making a real API, instead of a scripting API

  Programmers are more productive when they stay in a programming language (Java/C#) and expose high-level nodes.

We avoid fragmenting logic across multiple "half-languages".

So there's no scripting engine like Lua planned, they intend for you to make real Java mods with their real Java API

[silver cloak]

Anyone still got a token? I got a cool og name recommendation

For you guys to use not me

[sharp lake]

Scripting languages in some games are a gimmick anyway
They cater to people who aren't familiar with programming, but in a format just a single step away from an actual programming language
Visual scripting is going to cater to designers, not programmers

Text-based scripting is usually introduced to "help non-programmers" like designers building custom behaviours.
In reality, script languages like Lua are still programming languages:
Programmers now have to juggle two languages, one of which usually feels "nerfed".
Designers are still expected to learn actual programming concepts.
In the end, it's less inclusive and increases complexity for both sides.

[sharp lake]

This isn't plugin related, you could go to #game-discussion lol

[silver cloak]

Mini modder!!!

It's a technical name that's why I am sending it here

[sharp lake]

I was genuinely surprised when I first read that they were ditching the idea of a scripting engine, and weren't planning on anything like Lua
But it makes sense after thinking about it for a while, and it'll be possible to implement if people really get hung up on it
It won't be hard at all for a community member to make a Lua plugin and expose a decent chunk of the Java API

But I don't think it'll be necessary, or even desirable, to do that
Assuming they do a good job with the API and provide nice reference implementations

Dogfood our own systems: Use the same tools and workflows available to you so we can validate and improve minigame creation, live ops, and server management in real conditions.
I doubt they're using this for extending the code-base, but if they're using their own API for anything at all, we'll get nice reference implementations for plugins to look at

[stray pasture]

This is the way! 😄

[peak fjord]

C# is the best 👀

[gleaming temple]

what are most folks using at the start ? just directly java or kotlin ?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, that's what you have to start with until a language adapter exists

[empty nest]

🥱

[west elk]

Most will use Java but I'll try to set up a Kotlin-based template for my future plugins at the start.

[peak fjord]

From my opinion, C# would be a better choice for server side + plugin system 👀

[vernal niche]

Also gonna start with Java. I'd expect that more people are familiar with Java than Kotlin so that's gonna make collaboration easier.

But there will be Kotlin projects for sure

[stray pasture]

Oh why so?

[gleaming temple]

personally also used java in the past, kotlin just got some traktion over the years so i though i ask ^^

[vernal niche]

As far as I understand, Android development is basically purely Kotlin at this point. In other applications it's still a little more niche

[sharp lake]

Yeah, I've even heard people call it Android Java lol

[sterile dove]

Its kinda like what typescript is for javascript, just pure upgrade

[true socket]

most people will probably start with Java and never end up using kotlin

I avoid using kotlin because I don’t want to be locked into using jetbrains ides

[sharp lake]

Maybe I should setup a Kotlin environment and give it a try lol

[sterile dove]

u dont have to use jetbrains for kotlin

[true socket]

yeah you don’t have to but every other ide has horrible kotlin support

[peak fjord]

For multiple reasons:

• C# have better performances. In short, it runs faster and smoother
• C# is easier to work with. The language is more modern and avoids a lot of headaches that Java can bring
• Using the same language everywhere just makes life simpler. If both the client and the server use C#, you only learn one language instead of two (Java and C#)
• The tools around C# are nicer. Rider is far better than Java IDE's and it’s easier to test and fix issues

[prisma agate]

Hot take, but I prefer Java over kotlin

[sharp lake]

Is C# still garbage collected? Also, the client won't be modded by users
Java 25 doesn't really have performance issues from what I've observed, is that what you're comparing with?

[prisma agate]

Yes C# is GCed but u can do some manual memory stuff (but Java can also do that)

[true socket]

what’s wrong with garbage collection?

[prisma agate]

Nothing, personally I'd rather not have a GC, managing memory isn't that hard, only takes like 5% extra effort, and the performance difference is more than 5%

[peak fjord]

C# is garbage collected, but you can avoid it or reduce garbage collection pressure by using Span<>, Memory<> types. Im pretty sure that Java can't bit with C# in term of performance, even with the best optimization

[true socket]

I disagree, I think for a case like this the tiny performance loss from garbage collection is easily worth the added safety and simplicity

[stray pasture]

See I am totally on board, I two rather C# and find it statistically better. However many don't share the same thoughts here. 😄

[prisma agate]

Most likely false, I'd assume there are APIs in both of them to control performance just as much

[stray pasture]

Nah. You can disable C# GC and manually handle it

[prisma agate]

And java also has APIs for manually managing it afaik

[stray pasture]

They do!

[true socket]

the performance loss from zgc is like a few percentage points plus pauses lasting maybe a few milliseconds max, and most of the work is done in parallel anyways

it’s EASILY worth it

[peak fjord]

C# is extremely well optimized by Microsoft. A LOT of effort are made into this, And the C# memory footprint is far less than Java

[prisma agate]

The performance different is very much not "tiny", sure u can say the tradeoff is worth it, and for some people who don't have the knowledge on how to properly manage memory, then ye, but I prefer for my own code to just manage it myself without a GC (unless it's a quick throwaway script)

[stray pasture]

I promise. This debate isn't worth your time. I have already seen three of them in the past 4 days. 😄

[solemn brook]

Use modenrn java

[red saddle]

Devs were hypixel devs doing java work.

Java is just what they knew

[stray pasture]

This is usually the end of each of those debates.

[solemn brook]

If you want memory, you have FFM. Java just added a vector api, records ect

[true socket]

performance difference is absolutely tiny and complete memory safety is more valuable than you think

[red saddle]

Better have code that has expertise even if it's java

[peak fjord]

Sure, i dont want to fight with java devs ahah
In all cases, i will make a C# server alternative for Hytale as an open source project 👀

[stray pasture]

Invite me! I was going to embbed my framework via a Java bridge but your idea is better!

[red saddle]

minimal api?

[peak fjord]

Sure 😎

[sharp lake]

You want to make a whole other server as opposed to an adapter to write plugins with?

[stray pasture]

This is usually better for cohesion, just a lot more effort

[sharp lake]

It'd be interesting to see the performance difference, but it does sound like a lot of work lol

[peak fjord]

Yeah, its the idea
Just for an alternative

[peak fjord]

Exact

[peak fjord]

Minimap API is for web api, in this game i will make a UDP server, because game server use UDP

[sharp lake]

That's definitely a project more suited for a stable server code-base though
And they have years of early access planned
An adapter would be a lot more manageable when it comes to keeping up
And we know that locking the client version isn't planned

So you might end up with a bricked project every other week for years
And the fixes might not be so easy

[kindred crescent]

They use QUIC in case you don't know

[prisma agate]

It's not tiny, it's significant, bcz then u can use techniques like arenas/pool allocators to batch allocations and lifetimes
And the garbage collector doesn't know enough about your code for it to do that kind of stuff for you

And memory safety isn't a huge issue if u handle things properly, u can easily add stuff like bounds checking if u do need it (which fixes buffer overruns), and with arenas u simplify allocations so things like double free basically never happen

[solemn brook]

Java has arenas?...

they added them with FFM

[prisma agate]

Oh cool, I'd probably use them in my plugins then (discussion was on GC tho not java)

[peak fjord]

I didnt know, but know i know and the first C# server version will be based on a java -> manual c# transpilation to have something to work with at the begining. Then i will optimize the code and do incremental updates for each Hytale versions

[peak fjord]

Yeah its a big job for few peoples, but the result can be really good at the end

[prisma agate]

Also I am not against garbage collectors, I am just saying that I don't find them useful for me, if others prefer them, and understand the cost, then they are totally fine to use

[glass crag]

are you guys thinkkjng of making a proxy or a direct connect system for multi server networks

ive made a managed direct connect distributor for it but realizing proxy may be where its at, anyone got thoughts?

[sharp lake]

It kind of depends on how well the transfer packet thing works

[true socket]

if the biggest projects and companies are experiencing memory safety related vulnerabilities and are migrating stuff to memory safe languages, I think it is good evidence that non-memory safe languages are not ideal

there are very few areas where there are meaningful benefits of not using GC, and Java allows offheap allocation for that

garbage collection is INCREDIBLY light - how much performance do you think it costs? as far as I know it’s maybe a few percentage points. avoiding GC is usually for latency concerns in regards to pause times, not throughput performance - and the pause times aren’t an issue here because zgc pauses last a fraction of a game tick

[sharp lake]

My server is going to be behind a proxy regardless, I do other things besides just routing
But for the routing I might just send the transfer packets directly

[glass crag]

ye im just realizing now ive put all my eggs in the hand of their transfer stuff not being ass

[sharp lake]

Have you worked with the Mojang one yet? They added transfers a bit ago

[glass crag]

nah only ever proxys with mc, didnt even realise u can transfer on minecraft

[sharp lake]

Yeah, you can
It'd probably be worth looking at, considering you plan to make one for Hytale

[glass crag]

my main thoughts are if a server crashes its likely not possible to send someone back to a default server

as i wont be able to run my fallback routine with unexpected crashes

[sharp lake]

Oh that's a good idea for what they'd be able to add
If you keep track of the servers you were transferred from, you could connect to them on disconnection

It's possible they handle that already even

[glass crag]

if i have hubs i can just send them back to that

[glass crag]

true but i dont trust it

[sharp lake]

It'd be on the client, there wouldn't be much to worry about

[glass crag]

ive made a load balancing system for my backend containers so i can scale but i rly cba learn how to makle a proxy

just gots cross my fingers lol

[true socket]

slikey essentially said that they prefer transfer packets because running the proxies on hypixel costed too much

but on the scale of minecraft servers I’ve worked on which is a lot smaller (a few hundred concurrent players), i have much preferred using a proxy because you get to have proper fallback stuff and you can run proxy plugins for serverwide stuff (eg punishments etc) so it doesn’t need to be setup on every single server

[sharp lake]

If the client keeps track of where it transferred from, you can still have proper fallback behaviour

[glass crag]

thats my thoughts

ive set something up with a master server which handles player auth and states of servers for player moving

[sharp lake]

Depending on how they do it, you could possibly even dictate the fallback server
And because you can send arbitrary data, that's directly handling fallback

[prisma agate]

The issue with "memory unsafe" languages (C/C++) is that they are very old, and are missing safety features by default (like bounds checking)
Which is why there are a bunch of new-ish languages trying to fix it (including my own) like Zig, C3, Odin, Jai
Even though all of these languages are technically "memory unsafe", they provide way more safety than C/C++, but are not 100% safe like GCed langs or Rust-style ownership/borrowing

[glass crag]

but proxys just give so much conttrol

[glass crag]

send arbitary data with what?

[sharp lake]

The transfer packet has a 4KB payload

[glass crag]

oooo wtf

[sharp lake]

Yeah, so if you can dictate where the player gets sent on disconnection
That server you send them to can read the payload, and do things based on that

[glass crag]

i wish i knew that before setting up extensive redis sub/pub for servers to commuinicate stuff like that

lmao

[sharp lake]

You should probably read their blog posts before working on projects for the game 💀 💀

[glass crag]

fr

[sharp lake]

Oh actually I think the 4KB payload was from a frickin Q&A so

[glass crag]

tbf i did skim the dev blog and didnt notice that

[spiral marten]

Anyone think we're gonna get lucky enough to get the api docs before release?

[sharp lake]

I just do lazy-loading and automated shutdowns with my proxies
A couple of translation hacks and the usual jank 💀

[vernal niche]

There's just so much info floating around

[west elk]

Probably not. Try said that would invite an overwhelming amount of technical questions during a critical time which they would like to avoid ^^

[spiral marten]

I used nitrado ages ago, is it still wack or did it get better

[true socket]

no, i could trust a custom system much more than sending data with the player

[west elk]

Are you expecting a non-biased answer? xD

[vernal niche]

My friend what do you think I'm gonna respond to this question?

[spiral marten]

No not really 😂 just curious on his genuine opinion

Like 100% honest answer as non biased as you can be. What could you all improve

[sharp lake]

Mr. Technical Lead, what is your opinion on the people in charge of leading your tech 😂

[stray pasture]

Of course with love and kindness

Or bash them to hell!

[true socket]

what if your fallback isn’t where you transferred from

[sharp lake]

I did mention this

[sharp lake]

In fact, it was my very next message lol

[true socket]

oh oops I didn’t read that

[spiral marten]

That would be amazing but I'm sure with release we might be super limited

[sharp lake]

Yeah, it's probably a low priority
But we could absolutely ask them for that feature, and I do think it's one that would actually get added easily

[spiral marten]

Hopefully I'm wrong but I have a feeling we won't be able to do much at first while they flush out thebAPI

[vernal niche]

My honest answer is that I am really proud of the work we are doing, but there is always things to improve. It's part of keeping up with the industry and the players.

And that's also kind of why I'm here. To understand what is on people's minds, what they value and what less so.

[sharp lake]

Fortunately, we'll be able to do a lot when it comes to actual server-side stuff
The client interactions are probably going to be super limited at first though

[sharp lake]

😂 😂 you can pass along the fallback server suggestion

[spiral marten]

Honest truth from me, at least back then the site was super clunky. Personally I thought the OVH control panel was just cleaner and more simple to understand

[tropic axle]

In the TOS, there's a clause against reverse engineering without explicit consent, yet the blog post states that until the source code of the server is made available, people can decompile the unobfuscated server jar. I assume this means Hytale is intending for people to do this for the time being for the sake of modding?

[sharp lake]

It says '...for unlawful or commercial purposes without permission.' in that clause

[dusky plume]

@vernal niche do you think that minecraft modders will feel familiar with hytale modding?

[sharp lake]

They'll probably provide more documents for commercial use, or they already have

[vernal niche]

Thanks for that feedback. We have just recently overhauled large parts of our website so you might want to have a look at it someday.

We know that certain parts had big 90's vibes, and not in a good way

[spiral marten]

I'll take a look

[vernal niche]

I've never been a Minecraft modder, but Hytale was built by Minecraft modders. Soooo ...

[sharp lake]

Oop Andre is not actually one of us, we've been fooled

A duck in sheep's clothing

[tropic axle]

I'm assuming modding will be a nicer experience since the modding framework isn't slapped on top of an game uncooperative with its modding community

[vernal niche]

Come Jan 13th we all gonna be one big family

[sharp lake]

I literally gave up on Minecraft modding more than a half dozen times over the years LMFAO
It felt like Mojang was genuinely hostile at times, and every promise fell through

The fact that they hired Searge and everything, but didn't do the modding API
The fact that they hired gnembon and everything, but didn't do actual scripting
They've hired so many modders over the years, and nada

They basically bought Bukkit, unethically, but still
And nothing yet lol

[stray pasture]

Second section allows reverse engineering for tooling

I ain't a lawyer correct me if I am wrong.

Wish they wrote thay stuff in Humanese and mot Legalese.

[sharp lake]

And then Mojang dropped their marketplace edition of the game
And that has actual APIs from what I've heard, but the game is so clunky it's not even worth modding for

[calm python]

They have deobfuscate the Minecraft jars, late but its welcome

[sharp lake]

Lmfao I like how lightly "late" puts it
I wonder how much compute world-wide has been wasted on mapping Minecraft jars
Maybe we could fill a few bath tubs

[calm python]

Minecraft philosophy is the community build the community, we just released the Game and add a block/mob each year

[formal burrow]

the game is barely playable in vanilla

[sharp lake]

None of the marketplace mods fix the playability

[formal burrow]

keep in mind the game is LESS OPTIMIZED than literal Java. Java is supposed to be the unstable and laggy version

[sharp lake]

They're all content, and the problem is the base game

[calm python]

The base game has a very fixed codebase, it wasn't thought for modding, all the mod loaders are based in mixins, in other words patching the game

[tropic axle]

The netcode must be ridiculously terrrible from the inconsistency between server and client side state, I've seen far too many clips of people falling through blocks they should have placed (especially in single player, when there should be essentially no latency!)

[stray pasture]

I just love the name of their rendering engine: "RenderDragon"

[sharp lake]

I'm curious how the Hytale mod browsing experience will be
But I'm not even worried about that really, I'm not much of a browser lol
And a platform like Modrinth will be inevitable

[vernal niche]

I won't judge anyone for what they like or dislike, but I personally have somewhat of an allergy against games that basically require modding, but that do not have proper first party support for it. For me that includes games like Minecraft and Skyrim

[stray pasture]

They never required modding. Nor was it intended. But modding makes anything better.

[spiral marten]

That's fair

[sharp lake]

Skyrim has an excuse I think, it's very old and unmaintained isn't it?
Minecraft is a literal sandbox game that had taken no steps towards being a sandbox for developers for a literal decade
And it's not like they've stopped supporting Minecraft lol

[tropic axle]

When do we think the first compatability plugin will be made that allows for crossplay between Minecraft and Hytale (in whatever capacity)?

[vernal niche]

E.g. Vanilla Skyrim inventory was unplayable for me personally. That... Leaves me dissatisfied

[sharp lake]

Years and years

It's possible I'm wrong though and it could be done quickly

[calm python]

Whenever someone is so bored to do a translation layer

[formal burrow]

A while. A very long time. Someone will likely be able to pull it off within the first couple months but nothing good enough to be optimized. However I think someone trying to make a Minestom for Hytale could easily make a bridge but without any survival elements

[true socket]

it’s absolutely possible, I think many people will try to make them but it will be a long time until someone makes a good one

[calm python]

But I think only hytale clients could connect to Minecraft clients and not viceversa

[tropic axle]

Well as long as you provide a 'minecraft server' for the MC client to communicate with, it shouldn't matter either way

[formal burrow]

I think it's 100% possible within the first month if someone makes a parkour server and it's crossplay between Minecraft and Hytale, no survival elements, just seeing players and builds

[vernal niche]

I feel like the first thing people gonna try is to convert MC worlds into Hytale worlds

[stray pasture]

I think pretty highly likely. And quick. Its just translation albeit a lot, but nothing complex

[tropic axle]

that's what I was envisioning

[formal burrow]

Correct. We need an earth map conversion ASAP.

[sharp lake]

I think the MC world conversion is gonna fall flat pretty quickly, no more than schematics probably

[calm python]

And MC libraries like brigadier

[sharp lake]

Could still take a schematic of entire chunks though lol

[vernal niche]

[stares in server RAM consumption]

[calm python]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bukkit/paper translation layer soon

[sharp lake]

The command handler? I'm not so sure we'll need anything like that

[formal burrow]

renting cheap dedis right now is still possible, OVH still is offering BF dedis I think if I recall

[sharp lake]

I'm basically a millionaire thanks to this box of old RAM sticks