server-plugins-read-only

[steep sun]

yep, much better this way lol

[sharp lake]

Minecraft moved it to another thread? I thought it was against Mojang's core principles to thread literally anything

[hard walrus]

dont worry they did a bad job with it but yes

[steep sun]

I think chunks and chat are the only thing off the main thread lol

[stray pasture]

Really chat? Out of all things? 😂

[sharp lake]

Are they threading world gen or dimensions? Like, things that would actually impact server performance

[hard walrus]

the locate command can still freeze the server dont worry

[steep sun]

Yeah, if a server freezes you can still chat about it lol

[sharp lake]

oh thank god, that's great

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah! I love that part nvm

[sharp lake]

So it still hasn't lost the indie charm

Well, it has lost most of it
But not the code quality part

[hard walrus]

a majority of recent minecraft updates have been updating old code

[hybrid wren]

how does locate work, anyways? i'd assume it would have to simulate worldgen to some degree?

[hard walrus]

that's a big reason why many mods have struggled to keep up recently

[steep sun]

idk I'm impressed they've continued to maintain the Java edition for this long, it would've been easy to just force everyone to Bedrock

[stray pasture]

Oh its got all of the indie charm (in code) but its got AAA team and funding

[sharp lake]

And management apparently

[hard walrus]

it does for the finding part but it still halts the main thread till it gets an answer so it might as well not be

[hybrid wren]

discontinuing java would be met with horrid community backlash, that's why

[hard walrus]

bedrock also sucks

[stray pasture]

I bet one change goes up the chain through 60 people. "I just wanted to change the single pixel of the apple"

[sharp lake]

Plus, Mojang plays the Java edition
They'd be really sad if it got discontinued :((

[stray pasture]

Bedrock is the rock bottom! 😛

[hard walrus]

if anything they should add java to mobile already, the whole reason they didnt originally was because phones couldnt run it at the time

you can play java edition unofficially on ios and android

[sharp lake]

That's actually a decent point, a lot has changed since 2009 regarding mobile computing 💀

[steep sun]

on iOS? That's surprising

[sharp lake]

I wonder how b1.7.3 plays on mobile

[hard walrus]

it comes down to having a java runtime, it is universal

[stray pasture]

Yeah I got a Steam Deck desguised as an S25 Ultra! 😛 Wild!

C#? Anyone? 🙃

[hard walrus]

did you install steam os on it? lmao

[sharp lake]

after reading some c#
i am glad to not use c#

[stray pasture]

No but you just gave me and idea you shouldnt have. 😛

[stray pasture]

:/

[kindred crescent]

C# is great wdym

[limpid shard]

My webdev career started with PHP and C#

[stray pasture]

Idk about dat PHP tho. 😛

[hard walrus]

phones use arm, so it's pretty much the same as running minecraft on a mac

[sharp lake]

Maybe it's just the formatting and coding style of this leak
But this is not fun!

[limpid shard]

True. I haven't used it forever

[kindred crescent]

The leak is decompiled code, not good C# code lol

[hard walrus]

modern phones are so fast that you can run modded java on ios better than bedrock, which says alot about bedrock

[stray pasture]

Yeah you lose a lot of semantics from the language

[sharp lake]

Oh so maybe I should look at actual code then 💀

[steep sun]

idk I was just shocked you could get a JVM to run on iOS, I figured Apple would never allow that

[hard walrus]

well they dont exactly

[stray pasture]

If you use Kotlin C# is basically that

[steep sun]

[stray pasture]

"F#"

[limpid shard]

It's all machine code in the end

[stray pasture]

Well, then I will just go write 000100

[sharp lake]

Unfortunately most of my experience has been in Rust 💀
And I've done some bug-fixing and extending of other people's Java projects

[stray pasture]

I am jellous but also very sorry

[steep sun]

Just do that a bunch of times and you get roller coaster tycoon lol

[stray pasture]

If only Minecraft was written in pure binary.

[hard walrus]

a modding "paradise"

[sharp lake]

Rust has been super duper easy to get into, and nice to work with
But it's not particularly applicable here

[atomic nebula]

Most of my experience has been with Typescript and Lua. I'm not sure if I should feel fortunate or unfortunate lol

[sharp lake]

You should literally be sobbing

[stray pasture]

Yeah I really want to dive into it, but it really just counteracts my entire ecosystem that I work with. 😛 It just isn't worth it for me.

[atomic nebula]

I do love types and Lua.

[sharp lake]

I've written some Lua for frickin ComputerCraft
And I was actually amazed at how nice it was to work with, regarding scripting languages

I was writing object oriented lua 💀

[atomic nebula]

Yeah, tables are so awesome.

[stray pasture]

Well, I have used just about every language and TypeScript was one of the fun ones for me! Explicit and universial usecases!

[sharp lake]

Holy cow I just got into my Hytale account lmao

Every email they've sent was already expired for the last 10 hours

[stray pasture]

The first email I got was like 2 seconds and I got in right away! (Okay, I feel better now | Fed my ego)

[steep sun]

same here lol

[atomic nebula]

Yeah, I used to write Javascript, but Typescript is just so much better when you are making something big. Just knowing what something expects makes programming much more fun

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah, I despise dynamic langauges. Plus I enjoy my Python like execution in C# (new .net 10 feature!!!) Build pipeline just leveled up like 10 times at my job. 😛

Although AI LOVES that "var" word in C# and I go back through typing them all!

[sharp lake]

I got my first one after like 6 minutes, and it said it expired 260 minutes prior lol

Then the later ones were hours apart, and all expired before they were ever sent

It said that it would last for 24 hours, and it definitely did not!

[stray pasture]

That is unfortunate! - I can't wait to go reserve my Username and it be taken!

[sharp lake]

Pre-order day is probably going to be ridiculous

Unless they're about to scale up tenfold in preparation for the swarm

[stray pasture]

I hope! - Probably not.

[kindred crescent]

At least now they must have an idea of how many people they could have

[steep sun]

They probably got the ticks per second calculations wrong, easy mistake to make

[stray pasture]

At least 216,424

[stray pasture]

Ahh shoot, I forgot - You gotta simulate tron to get emails sent out!

[sharp lake]

Lmao a counter for token expiry instead of timestamp

[stray pasture]

What yall makin when you get hands on it and time

[sharp lake]

One of my earlier plugins will be a chat bridge

If that's what you mean

[kindred crescent]

I had the idea to make ice skates

[stray pasture]

Oooh, chat bridge do you think that may exist given the concept of minigames?

We have no idea. Just speculation

[sharp lake]

I don't think I understand what you mean!

[stray pasture]

Do you think since its hypixel and mini games are a point of the system they may have build in chat bridging?

[sharp lake]

Oh that would be super interesting, but I doubt it

[stray pasture]

That is fair, I have to agree. 😄

[sharp lake]

You can connect a Discord account though, so maybe

[stray pasture]

Oh you mean Chat from server to Discord.

[sharp lake]

Yes

[stray pasture]

I love cross domain systems!

[sharp lake]

I'm no-longer nursing my hand so I can type a lot again LMFAO

[kindred crescent]

make it so we can have one world with multiple servers at the same time so it can have thousands of people on at once

[echo quartz]

thats not a little bit dangerous?

[kindred crescent]

ok thx bye

[echo quartz]

in terms of security and that stuff

[sharp lake]

All of the game servers I host are loaded on-demand and bridged to a Discord channel
So players can see when people get on and communicate with them

[stray pasture]

Nah, in what way?

[kindred crescent]

Why would it be?

[sharp lake]

So I'll be adding a way to shutdown after all the players leave, if there isn't one already
And a chat bridge for a Discord channel

When it comes to content mods, I'd like to do a custom painting and statue thing
But that'd be way later, I'll probably just be doing miscellaneous things
Cooking expansion and the likes

[echo quartz]

first beacuse of the words via discord to Hytale, or other way, and second for the lag can make in chat. idk to much about that anyways

but also is interesting, I like it

[stray pasture]

I wish Windows would allow me to make URIs for apps that I don't control. That way I could setup Spin up in discord and click big button to join and it launches and joins server automatically.. (Roblox now that I think about it)

[rose atlas]

People do this all the time in minecraft... bridge discord and minecraft chat.. it aint deep... or a security issue....

[echo quartz]

Hytale is the real cooking mama 2

[kindred crescent]

Nah it's fine. You can censor if you want. Ultimately woud would have the same rules on your discord and on your server.
Also, there's no reason for there to be lag

[sharp lake]

My on-demand thing is actually on connection
I get the game servers started within the connection timeout 😂
And it forwards the connection once the server opens the port

[echo quartz]

great

[stray pasture]

See, I like that!

[sharp lake]

It works exceedingly well with games with short startup times
Like, Starbound is literally instant
So I can host a Starbound server with literally 0 utilization
Less than 172kb of RAM and virtually zero CPU, until someone connects of course

[fathom pelican]

im working on it, i do distributed systems full time. i currently have it capable of up to 5,000 messages per minute without being rate limited or triggering the users account to be banned

ofourse well... assuming hytale even lets you tap into chat.

[echo quartz]

damn, nice job, it can be helpfully to talk a friend or something directly in the game without enter the server or the game.

[sharp lake]

Yeah

[fathom pelican]

yeah im working on a multitool im not ready to present mostly because of so many uncertainties with server api.

man i really wish they released something in terms of docs.

[echo quartz]

Well, they have pictures of lobbys, they want to make official servers, also a big part of the game is in games with friends, so probably they would add a chat

[sharp lake]

There is indeed a chat

Commands start with a dot apparently lol

[fathom pelican]

idk why i had an immediate reaction to this

[stray pasture]

Oooh, that bothers me

[echo quartz]

prehaps if you talk directly with the team in X? Prehaps they or Simon will answer you some questions, I mean Simon is responding the post in Hytale

[sharp lake]

It could've changed later, but it was a dot at some point

Oh yknow what, I realize they used some commands in the latest creative video I think
So I'mma just check that to get something more recent

[atomic nebula]

it's a slash

[sharp lake]

It's a slash in that, yeah

Oh wait, it shows both

.mach speed 2 is used as a command
It's possible that dot is for client commands

[fathom pelican]

have they mentioned anything UI related ? i think for the benefit of everyone it would help if we could do simple UIs early for plugins. no one wants to run /setup-myplugin-super-secret-config-data-thats-now-visible-to-everyone. and alot of people dont know or wanna bother with java config files

[sharp lake]

Ohhh that is almost definitely it
Dot for client commands, slash for server

[kindred crescent]

Yes, there was a tweet

[sharp lake]

It has precedent too, at least in Minecraft modding

[stray pasture]

Client commands for what?

[atomic nebula]

They use NoesisGUI, so XAML

[sharp lake]

Recording and a few other things

[fathom pelican]

isnt NoesisGUI c++

[kindred crescent]

I can't send the link, but it was a tweet by Ktar5. You can make custom UI menus using Java code and some other code I don't know about that is legacy (I wager you'd use NoegisGUI)

[kindred crescent]

Yes it is, why?

[atomic nebula]

They have a C# SDK if I'm not wrong

[sharp lake]

.mach actor move
.mach edit frame
.mach restart
.profiling on all

[kindred crescent]

https://x com/Ktar5/status/1991664868131500049 -> Just add the .

[fathom pelican]

me hoping they implimented html css for UI. i can only dream. average person wont want to mess around with c++ for ui. say what you want about web dev or JS but html and css make it super easy to make good looking ui even for people that dont know they arent even programming languages

[kindred crescent]

Look up NoegisGUI

[stray pasture]

I despise XAML/XML - Do it for work, and I want to yeet it out the window.

[sharp lake]

In the video they also show some of these slash commands:

/editprefab info
/copy
/pedit exit

[echo quartz]

I think they are working in a block-code system, like drag and put cubes of codes into the game. So probably you can have diferent ways to execute a plugin

[stray pasture]

prefab
Hold up? Any explanation?

[kindred crescent]

Prefabs are like schematics in Minecraft. They are builds you can save in files

You can then plug these prefabs in your world generation. For instance, each trees and dungeons are prefabs

[sharp lake]

Yeah, they released a whole video on it basically
They are indeed schematics, with a few other things on top from what we've seen

[stray pasture]

Oh ok, so blueprint type of things?

[sharp lake]

Yes, but they're avoiding that terminology due to its use elsewhere

[kindred crescent]

Yes exactly.

You can see Prefabs in action in the creative gameplay video

[stray pasture]

See now why would they do that. 😛 - Just use the widly agreed upon word. 😂

[sharp lake]

I briefly opened the prefab browser on my way to the Prefab Editor. The Prefab Editor is a separate editing environment where you can load a selection of different prefabs into an empty world where you can edit them, select them, or just browse the prefabs visually. In the video, I just go in to select the prefab ruins that I want to paste into my small environment.

The Selection Tool is another versatile and customizable tool. It allows you to select 3d spaces and perform many different kinds of operations on it. It allows you to save prefabs, paste tons of blocks precisely, move entire objects, define regions, regenerate chunks, extrude, and more! We're looking forward to adding selections that support any shape after release, as well as a "magic wand" tool for automatically creating selections by clicking on materials and selecting all of the same material nearby.

[sharp lake]

They have visual scripting in Hytale, and Unreal uses the term blueprint to describe that system

[stray pasture]

Yeah I know, I really like that term. 😛

[fathom pelican]

soo, the server will send the client the resources they need right ? or is it like an RPC call . if a user runs /some-command and the command plays with server values would it be an rpc that executes on the server ? im guessing we have no idea yet

[kindred crescent]

One really awesome creative tool would be something like the "ruin brush" that was shown, but instead you select "points" and you can make a whole dungeon with pathways and rooms. Then, at the end, you can simply decorate

[stray pasture]

I am also scewed on "prefab" due to Unity...

[sharp lake]

Oh does Unity use prefab? Maybe that's not why they didn't go with blueprint LOL

[echo quartz]

finally a real games of cubes: you can code in cubes

[stray pasture]

Yeah Prefabs in unity is a container of objects. Usually is the parent and root transform of the object.

Each object can also have its own "behaviors" etc

[sharp lake]

I think they're just picking words at random then 😍

[echo quartz]

they dont have something similar? I see like rooms in some part of the creative gameplay, and like faces to put that rooms in diferent directions

[chrome rampart]

If I wrote a Java wrapper that lets people write plugins in C/C++ (and possibly C#?) via compiling them to a DLL, is anyone besides me going to be interested?

[stray pasture]

Nah it makes sense. 😛

[sharp lake]

I thought about language adapters, but I figured it wouldn't be worth it

[stray pasture]

I wrote my own plugin runtime that I am doing that with. 😄

Currently writing a MTG style card game with it atm.

[echo quartz]

of course (idk anything of code)

[kindred crescent]

They have a brush to make simple structures in a shape and prefabs, but no tool was shown that could do what I described. They have talked in the past about procedurally generated dungeons which I assume also use prefabs

[stray pasture]

Can you do the hard work for me? 😛

[kindred crescent]

Yes, C# please

[echo quartz]

ohhh prehaps in world generator V2???

[stray pasture]

You're one of US!

[sharp lake]

C# is definitely the better choice in this circumstance

[kindred crescent]

Actually, just port the whole server to C#

[chrome rampart]

The problem with C# is runtime. But that might be solvable, depending on the platform you run it on. I'll have to take a closer look.

[kindred crescent]

Uh?

What do you mean by that?

[stray pasture]

jni4net - This may help ya

[sharp lake]

LOL can take inspiration from Microsoft and make a broken port in 72 hours by having an LLM go through and convert all the code for you ✨

[hard walrus]

that'll come after the rust rewrite

[sharp lake]

Then you can truly experience the Microsoft jank in Hytale

[stray pasture]

Shhh!!! I have done this exact thing! It worked well for me, but golly was it kinda scary

[kindred crescent]

I have no idea what world gen v2 is about, but I feel like it's not linked to that

[kindred crescent]

Yeah Rust would probably be the best. Rust for server, C# for mods, anyone?

[stray pasture]

I would agree! WASM!!! (SANDBOX)!!!

[chrome rampart]

The reason I'm thinking about this is that Java does provide some reflection facilities. It might be possible to do adaptation once, and have to do minimal maintenance to keep it up to date. Obv, any plugins written for it would still have to be updated to the relevant server version, but that's not extra work.

[stray pasture]

WASM That is my plan, users can make mini games but not mess your server up!

[sharp lake]

I've used AI for programming a few times, and it was actually pretty good at turning pseudo-code into the language of choice
But boy would I not trust it to convert literally any real code lmao

There were misunderstandings with pseudo-code, anything with actual nuance would almost certainly faceplant

[kindred crescent]

AI programming in my experience is really only good to teach you the base about the stuff you have never touched

[stray pasture]

Would anyone find a system that allows players to develop plugins that can grab your server specifcs but run in total sandbox usful? UGC?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, it's helpful for writing in a language you don't know at all
And that's it

[hard walrus]

it's definitely good at reinventing the wheel, but not inventing anything new

[kindred crescent]

Also really good at using stuff that doesn't even exist

[kindred crescent]

Uh?

[hard walrus]

so what you're saying is it'll write me a really good fantasy novel

[kindred crescent]

Try it and you'll see I guess?

[hard walrus]

guess it wasnt that funny 😢

[stray pasture]

Best way to explain it would be if you wanted users to be able to create their own systems but have total control over what they would have access to and what they could do (So they don't mess up a server), like making go carts or bumper cars etc (IT could run in a sandboxed env) - Maybe exposing a servers rewards pool alotted for that said specifics.

[kindred crescent]

🙁

[kindred crescent]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[sharp lake]

Do you mean a way for users to share games within your server?
Like, their own minigames on your minigame server

[stray pasture]

Essentially yeah User made mini games using tools a server could provide

[kindred crescent]

Oh

The way I'd probably go about it would be to give out an API for your server and players can upload their mods via a website or the game if possible

[hard walrus]

ahh so roblox in hytale

[sharp lake]

That would be neat
You'd want to do a scripting engine for that basically
Or at least that's what I would do
Expose a Lua api of some kind, and give them an interpreter and the likes

[stray pasture]

EXACTLY!!

[stray pasture]

Yes, that would be a goal!

I have everything I need, but its in C#... 😛 - So either somebody is writting a bridge or I am! 😂

[hard walrus]

you could add a digital currency, a login system, a website, dedicated hardware for server to spin off of
wait a minute..

[stray pasture]

You forgot the legal issues

[hard walrus]

that's the most important part

[sharp lake]

What if we made a whole other game to escape the fascist dictators that run the project
We could have a more open EULA and some better modding support
Maybe even listen to the community?

[chrome rampart]

The VM doesn't really matter. So long as you sandbox it properly, almost anything can be safe. If you have a good WASM VM, sure, that works. Although, main benefit of WASM is as compile target. Otherwise, you might as well use Lua or JavaScript.

[fathom pelican]

anything related to potentially profiting off ingame items like csgo and their marketplace and their skins gets you in alot of legal waters

[stray pasture]

WASM is natrually sandboxed which is why I opted for it.

[sharp lake]

What if we made something like Hytale, but in Hytale

[fathom pelican]

you can play with in game like, gold or something tho

[hard walrus]

doesnt a 100% custom server solution (legally) evade all eula and whatnot

[stray pasture]

OH MY GAWD! Your onto something

[sharp lake]

Yes

[kindred crescent]

What if we made Minecraft in Hytale?

[hard walrus]

wasnt there a ruling saying that using api's and whatnot doesnt bind you to any agreements or something like that

[chrome rampart]

People made mini-Genshin in Miliastra in Genshin. So this isn't even a new idea. XD

[stray pasture]

I wonder how popular that would be? 😛 A min games server that uses players as their labor! 😛

[sharp lake]

Holy cow we could make a Nintendo Gameboy with actual Pokémon on it

[hard walrus]

you could make doom

[sharp lake]

Literally an item it renders onto and can pass around

[fathom pelican]

doom in hytale has to happen. come on half the people in this chat are devs. make it happen!

[stray pasture]

0.o didn't think of that! Adding to my list

[sharp lake]

Doom is so long before my time

[stray pasture]

Of course it will be a minigame in a minigame in a minigame, maybe a Doom Tycoon!

😂

[kindred crescent]

I want Skyrim in Hytale

[hard walrus]

not once it's on hytale

[sharp lake]

Somebody posted very nice Plants vs Zombies models in #1440422085750030457
So that'll be a nice one to do

[fathom pelican]

now youre talking. gotta think big like this person everyone

[stray pasture]

Elden Ring?

Simulate live as we know it!

[sharp lake]

Maybe we should port VNC to Hytale so that players can connect to their internet-exposed machines insecurely
Then you can stream any title

[kindred crescent]

Would it even be that difficult to do?

[chrome rampart]

I need to get used to hearing this sort of a thing from people. That's going to be everyone eventually, and I'm still going to be going on about, "Back in my days you didn't get a 3D accelerator. If you wanted 3D graphics, you made your own!"

[kindred crescent]

Like sure it would take a long time, but would it be hard?

[stray pasture]

Yes, but it would be fun!

[sharp lake]

Depends on what you have in mind lol
Skyrim and Hytale are the same genre aren't they? So it's kind of already in Hytale if your goal is to make it an RPG

[kindred crescent]

Well yeah. Just look at the gameplay video. Health + Stamina + Magic
Combat is basically the same

[fathom pelican]

i think the biggest thing about hytale is that for example, i have lots of friends who love minecraft but arent devs. minecraft modding was....kinda icky and clunky, but now they can build while im away, and i can mod whatever they want into the game. i personally dont like playing as much as i like creating/game dev. so it gives me a dungeon master type vibe

[kindred crescent]

Inventory is different of course, lacks perks, lacks NPC conversation and stuff

[sharp lake]

My situation too

[stray pasture]

You got about 200k friends here!

[kindred crescent]

Yes! But it also makes it very accessible to beginners I find. The assets editor will be very good for those with good game design but no dev skill

[hard walrus]

ohh a dnd campain mod

[stray pasture]

I had a whole idea for a DND engine (WAY to big, but someday) - Not in hytale. 😄

[sharp lake]

It might have conversation
They talked about quests, didn't they?

[kindred crescent]

You know like all the sweats that know the game from A to Z and can tell you how to balance stuff but do not know how to actually implement it? Well now they could just open the Assets editor and change the values

[hard walrus]

surely it's doable in hytale

[stray pasture]

Oh yeah! Totally - No idea

[hard walrus]

maybe not exactly what you're thinking but a dnd mod in generally

[kindred crescent]

Yes, which is why I think it will be even easier over time. Even the cinematics will be possible! We could litteraly reproduce the Skyrim intro

[stray pasture]

Yeah that is do able. 😄

[chrome rampart]

So I don't know if that's going to be the first thing I do or not, but this is something I've already started in MC, and I realized I'd rather just wait for HT. I want to make something in TTRPG-style. Skyrim's not all together too far from it - though, I still want to make it focused on party-based adventures with more of an SMP style down-time when you make preparations. And I'm kind of looking at a few TTRPGs to take as a base. DnD would be obvious choice, but I'm kind of leaning more in direction of Daggerheart right now. It seems more adaptable to realt-time combat.

[kindred crescent]

Hey guys, wanna make an FPS-RTS game?

[hard walrus]

the dungeon master just gets insane tooling to sortof build the world as they go along

[stray pasture]

Lets make Silica!

We just have to get 90% of ALL developers together on one project, and we essentially could just make our own game! Legally speaking IN hytale

[kindred crescent]

Imagine you can make a whole RPG map with World Gen V2? You know like those engines/fantasy map generators that create whole custom worlds

[hard walrus]

is that something they talked about?

[kindred crescent]

They've already shown in the trailer how we can have a camera from up above

[stray pasture]

Anyone wanna explain World Gen V2?

[fathom pelican]

throw in some wave form collapse ontop of world gen 2. something interesting is bound to happen

[sharp lake]

Simon was really boasting about v2
I'm curious what has actually been innovated on

[kindred crescent]

No, but Simon said world gen v2 is revolutionary

[hard walrus]

depends what revolutionary means 😂

[kindred crescent]

What even can be revolutionnary for the block genre lol

[sharp lake]

Yeah

[fathom pelican]

anyone else i would call cap on. but simon has trash talked his own game so much on the riot purchase that im inclined to think maybe they did do something different when he actually says something will be cool/good

[kindred crescent]

Some people theorized that it could make the whole continent have a story. Like for it to make sense instead of just random stuff

[chrome rampart]

Custom world-gen shouldn't be too hard either way. The limitations aren't in the engine, but rather in just developing a good algo for it in the first place. Noise functions are great, but they can't do everything. You need good erosion, better way to make biomes, etc.

[hard walrus]

so dungeon generation but for a world instead?

[kindred crescent]

Well you see, nothing revolutionary in that. We agree. That's why it's so bizarre

[sharp lake]

We know the world gen will be graph based
So maybe it's the accessibility of complex features

[hard walrus]

what if the "revolutionary" part is the hytale team made agi and put it into the game

[stray pasture]

At this point revolutionary means Hytale released

I killed the chat...

[chrome rampart]

1000 years dungeon.

[sharp lake]

I'm nursing my arm again LOL
Can't really type

[stray pasture]

What did you do? To much pseudo code?

[chrome rampart]

Were you punching people again?

[sharp lake]

Physical labor is bad for you, never do it 😂

[stray pasture]

Thats why I do mental labor! The only physical labor I get is my fingie movin

[sharp lake]

I have tendonitis on both arms 😩

[stray pasture]

They say tearing your muscle fibers is good for you! - Surly its the same for the tendons right? No pain no gain?!

[sharp lake]

Literally what I thought but doc said I need to know when to stop

[chrome rampart]

* Not a medical advice.

[hard walrus]

yeah! they might be stronger after surgery!

[fathom pelican]

i wish you all well in the AI revolution brothers (and sisters). may you adapt and survive and stay employable in these tough clanker times

[chrome rampart]

Ooo! Replace them with kevlar.

[stray pasture]

I have become one with AI! Can't beat em you join em!

[sharp lake]

LLMs will be trained on the internet, so you can just appeal to their lack of social validation

[stray pasture]

But I go to AI for validation!

[sharp lake]

LMAO

[stray pasture]

How else do I prove I am the sigma alpha programmer?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, when I'm like "is my program any good.."
I show it to an AI and it tells me that it's great, and only needs a few tweaks

[stray pasture]

Did that 3 hours ago. 😛 - I felt very satisfied, my ego IS THROUGH THE ROOF!

[sharp lake]

If I use another AI to make the tweaks, it'll just tell me I did such a great job doing it
The guilt is catching up with me, but it's nowhere near as fast as the ego stroking

[chrome rampart]

Back in the 9th grade, a vending machine took my last dollar bill, and didn't give me my can of Dr. Pepper. Since then, I have vowed that when the war comes, I will stand against the machines. I will never accept LLMs or other genAI.

[fathom pelican]

i recommend you try this. works very well. or maybe im just coping. i have the AI audit the session and grade me compared to other user methodologies in the training data. 1-100 where 1 is a vibe coder, and 100 would be Principal engineer managing a junior. i tell it to rate me on communication and leadership as well as systems understanding and such. works great and transferabble to real world

[sharp lake]

I want a vending machine powered by human-language
You should be able to manipulate and gaslight it into giving you things that you didn't pay for

[chrome rampart]

I can just force it open with a crowbar. 🤷‍♀️

[sharp lake]

Violence is a form of human-language, so I think that still works

[hard walrus]

thats just human language on a different medium

[stray pasture]

I just tell AI what I need at work and it creates it and I get a lot of pings and shout outs. I am never forgotten! (Fastest engineer there!)

[sharp lake]

A plugin that adds AI dialogue to every NPC is clearly what we need in Hytale

1.4B parameter non-sense spewing would be mildly entertaining
Which is the best kind of entertaining.

[fathom pelican]

some part of my soul hurts when i leave the most expensive model to write instead of plan, and i come back to a 10 dollar bill on one feature. wonder what my actual rate is now with AI

[stray pasture]

"Hello twinkle toes! I see you have arrived!", "Kitty catacy needs your help!"

[hard walrus]

whoever makes it should leave their api key in their git repo

[sharp lake]

Literally that

[fathom pelican]

youd go bankrupt unless you charge atleast like $10 a month for it per user

[sharp lake]

I was thinking it should be hosted on the server

Just toss a GPU in there with at least 2GB of VRAM and you're golden

[stray pasture]

Ahh, so I just copy and paste from claude web (They compact my convos now) - 20X Plan. 😛

[hard walrus]

unless you open source/distribute it'll only be on one server then

[stray pasture]

Keeps me grounded - in the clouds

[fathom pelican]

cant do that anymore, you gotta get the GPU and the RAM for the gpu soon since nvidia starting to produce them without dye so companies figure out the ram situation for themselves

[sharp lake]

Yeah, it'd be open-source
Anyone with GPU compute could use the plugin to add non-sense

I'm genuinely trying to think of an actual use for a neural net while we're joking about this
And I don't have literally anything lol

[stray pasture]

This chat comes ALIVE every so often! 😄

[hard walrus]

it's common practice for people to push api keys onto public repos, more common even to have it in a private repo then remove it then make it public 😂

[fathom pelican]

i got charged $4 in the time i made the last 3 comments on here. i like my claudy opus but man does it like to buy whiskey

[sharp lake]

What would a plugin even use a neural network for
Advanced physics simulation is like, the only one I could think of

[stray pasture]

Wait you can have it charge per usage?!

What wizardry are you using?

[sharp lake]

Purchased whiskey on his behalf 😔

[fathom pelican]

gotta API it. on bright side. its all tax write offs in the U.S

[stray pasture]

Plus WAY cheaper for more tokens!

[sharp lake]

Alcoholism in Hytale is going to be sick

Are we thinking it'll be base game to some degree though?
Rum that disorients but strengthens you is a trope, isn't it?

[stray pasture]

We need a plugin for that

[sharp lake]

I'm thinking we'll need a plugin if we want to add dependency and withdrawals

[stray pasture]

Do we get crabs that carry ships? Maybe one named "The Black Pearl"?

[stray pasture]

See this is the type of innovation Hytale was made for!

[hard walrus]

ai these days is just one big tax writeoff

[stray pasture]

Like why hasn't Minecraft done this?!

[sharp lake]

We'll be able to have a gang violence server now too

[stray pasture]

GTA 6.5!

[fathom pelican]

..sigh... its true. im gonna miss having electricity

[sharp lake]

LOL it's going to release before GTA 6

GTA 5.9, or something nice like that

[stray pasture]

Can there be a morph plugin?

[sharp lake]

If you mean becoming mobs
They have player model swapping built-in
So the plugin would be introducing stuff like doing it on command and unlocking the creatures by killing

[stray pasture]

I want to become a drunkard on demand!

[sharp lake]

LOL I think the drunkard would just be the character you create on the main menu

[stray pasture]

Hear me out, we make Hytale inside of hytale, but the hytale insiode would be in a minituare world shown as a diorama!

Hytale^2

[sharp lake]

What if we make a snowglobe, and that snowglobe just renders the world in its immediate vicinity
But heavily distorted, like Animal Crossing

[stray pasture]

YEAH! - And you can see people building. OOH pocket dimensions!

But they are in a show room on tables

[sharp lake]

Idk if you've seen the seamless portal mods on Minecraft
But they're kind of neat

I don't think we'll be able to do that on Hytale for quite a while without ways to send arbitrary render commands from the server though

[stray pasture]

Actually in theory if you can get their coordinates, you maybe able to scale down and represent the players. 😛 ( I dunno if you can shink things)

[hard walrus]

ask them about it on twitter and they'll put it on the list

they've been clear that they want every mod (for the most part) to be possible and want to hear what kind of api's they should be adding to the client

[stray pasture]

Okay, so Hytale The game engine

[hard walrus]

*technical roblox

[low ridge]

yes

[stray pasture]

I am telling you Roblox is the final answer! - Just legally obliged

[fathom pelican]

some people are incredible https:// discord com/channels/523059903812599811/1447773744377499780

this is from the fan art wall

gotta add the .

[stray pasture]

That is wild

Do we knwo what Hypixels terms/eula will look like or likely assumptions? Selling plugins, etc?

I assume not

[kindred crescent]

hytale com/eula

[stray pasture]

Oh. Well I guess 2 seconds of research would have solved that...

[kindred crescent]

There's some others too

[stray pasture]

Just updated! Dec 7th

You buy a license to use the Game; you do not own the Game software.
🙁

[fathom pelican]

this has become standard for one reason or the other. even steam as good and holy as they are have the same. legal teams dont care for players.

[hard walrus]

tbf it's safer to have it in there and never use it than to need it but not have it in there

[stray pasture]

Well Steam doesn't own the games they are just the protal. Hytale OWNS THEIR GAME

[fathom pelican]

yeah this is what i meant.

[kindred crescent]

That's not what it means.
It means that if Hypixel Studios were to shut down the servers, you would lose access to the game and that's it

[stray pasture]

Yeah I just find it in bad taste... (You can buy our game, but you can't actually buy our game)

[kindred crescent]

They can just remove your license

[stray pasture]

Singleplayer is an option, but auth servers are a must... Your right.

[kindred crescent]

Well exactly

[hard walrus]

if a player needed to be banned for some reason, this clause is kinda needed no?

[stray pasture]

Im going to be a cry baby about that. 😛

[kindred crescent]

I would think so yes

[fathom pelican]

yup

[stray pasture]

Service Vs Game is different, you could ban them from the online "service" rather revoke from the entire game

[hard walrus]

that's true

[stray pasture]

I get the idea but its just like "Hey we know you paid for it, BUT we can revoke it at any point" 😛 - Thanks for your money!

[fathom pelican]

they add it in because realistically they arent going to package a pre built binary or something where all systems which classify the "product" work as advertised to allow banned players to play for example. idk probably alot of edge cases. single player games that do this tho drive me nuts

i think its legal coverage. the product is hytale as advertised, which includes all these live services and server infrastructure provided by the hypixel company. which would in theory be revoked when banned.

[stray pasture]

Image as well

[hard walrus]

chat gpt says that without this clause you could argue that you're buying the game in its entirety and not just a copy

[stray pasture]

Oh interesting, its more of a "product" defining clause

I had no idea!

[hard walrus]

so the own the "game software" part means you arent buying hytale like simon did but for 20 bucks 😂

[stray pasture]

Right that would make sense. - You know what! I am not a lawyer. Although do I own my "License"? Not my right to a license? 😄

[hard walrus]

sure you wouldnt get their auth servers and some other ip, but selling your game's codebase for $20 is probably not a good business decision

[stray pasture]

Oooh wait so I just misinterpreted that, buy a license is buying the consumer "product". Because otherwise you wouldn't have a right or otherwise a "license" to own or play the product

[fathom pelican]

in my case, simon selling me the rights to hytale for 20 dollars is absolutely a great idea. need to buy a new home

[hard walrus]

I think legally everyone who buys the game would get the rights

so it's basically paywalled open source?

[stray pasture]

You get a personal license to install and play. It's not a sale of the software.

You are absolutely correct. Which means it may not imply "rights to revoke" - Especially if they are not offering a service

2.1 Subject to this EULA and the Terms, we grant you a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to install and use the Game on devices you own or control for personal, non-commercial use.

Never mind...

"revocable"

[hard walrus]

revocable protects against chargeback?

unless thats standard anyways ig

[stray pasture]

Oh maybe! 😄

3.1 Modding Philosophy. We support community creativity. You may create, use, and distribute modifications, plugins, scripts, maps, skins, models, and similar content for the Game (collectively, "Mods").

They define scripts differently than plugins? - Is that the in-game stuff?

[hard walrus]

perhaps

im a bit confused on plugin vs mod in their eyes

[stray pasture]

Seems "Mod" is the overall modification no matter the method, and plugin is the Java jar put into the server.

[hard walrus]

which makes me wonder if they are limited in some fashion

or just how direct code modification would work in general

[stray pasture]

Oh cool, so mods work like Minecraft, you make it and put it on the platform you give them rights to do whatever they want with it, even reproduce etc - Full rights

They could take it and sell it on Bedrock for Minecoins! 😄

[sharp lake]

well based on that quote right above
"mod" is any of those things

[hard walrus]

oh i didnt read the last part lol

I saw the "modifications" part in the front of the list and thought that was what they considered mods like in minecraft

[hard walrus]

yeah thats the "visual scripting" in one of the blogs

[stray pasture]

If you break the rules, your license can end. You must uninstall the Game if your license ends.

more specifically

11.2 Termination by Us. Subject to applicable law, we can terminate this EULA at any time in our sole and entire discretion. This EULA also terminates automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions or the Terms. We may also suspend or terminate your access if we determine, in our sole and entire discretion, that such action is necessary to protect the Game, the Service, or other users. To the extent required by applicable law, we will provide any legally mandated advance notice; otherwise, we may suspend or terminate without prior notice.

Here it is!

I read the whole thing. 😄 Eveything looks standard, besides the fact that my interpretation of ungodly wording sounds like they own your work if put into the game and can use it how they choose

[low ridge]

i mean yea, thats kinda fair game... we are literally using their tools ig, and if they do use that clause in bad faith the community will let them know that very fast

[silver cloak]

Honestly the EULA seems genuine

I am glad they won't allow P2W stuff

[low ridge]

they also gotta enforce it... i trust they can handle it

[silver cloak]

I believe they will

[teal flame]

It won't take much for them to do better than Mojang, at least.

[silver cloak]

The p2w d tier servers will never get punished, but the moment a server gets some views it goes DOWN

[fleet isle]

Just to be sure. P2W is disallowed because of "EULA, Section 3.2 (e) respect gameplay balance, safety, and integrity" right?

[daring lodge]

p2w is still allowed, just hytale servers wont be p2w

[silver cloak]

Correct

[silver cloak]

P2W is NOT allowed

[frank mantle]

Minecraft EULA or Hytale EULA? I would htg love to see server owners with more flexibility and freedom in Hytale than Minecraft

[fleet isle]

The one I grabbed is from Hytale EULA

[frank mantle]

Oh my skibidi 😭

[silver cloak]

P2W is not allowed because it's against European Consumer Law

[frank mantle]

Oh well, temporal EULA — if the server is hosted in Europe, the clause applies; otherwise, it's fair game /s

[silver cloak]

Nope, rules apply to all

[frank mantle]

dagnabbit

[sharp lake]

could you reference the particular section

[frank mantle]

because they think it's a big no no

[fleet isle]

Oh wait, Canada is part of European Economic Area right?

[silver cloak]

It's not about where a server is hosted. The only way to not follow GDPR or any other European Law is to ban European players (geo block)

[silver cloak]

I can't send links

google "Europe consumer protection laws european commission"

[sharp lake]

just an excerpt is fine

[frank mantle]

def violates geneva conventions 🥀

[silver cloak]

There's also a reason you see all the games sell cosmetics instead of "plain advantages"

[sharp lake]

that's literally not true, EA has outright sold advantages

[frank mantle]

dude but what about 1 extra turn for only 49¢

[sharp lake]

mobile gaming has outright advantages all over the place

[frank mantle]

how else would you get 2 million power in ROK?

[fleet isle]

EU is currently in the process of cracking down on that AFAIK so not for long in theory

[sharp lake]

i'm reading the document now and it's not illegal to have pay to win mechanics at all

[silver cloak]

Read the regulations broski

[sharp lake]

that is literally what i'm doing
i'm not convinced you read this document at all

8af13e88-6540-436c-b137-9853e7fe866a_en
Key Principles on In-game Virtual Currencies

[empty nest]

In minecraft nobody cared about eula

[sharp lake]

That's because it's unenforceable

Mojang doesn't practice proper contract law, so it's not even legally binding lol

But good luck pursuing them legally to get your money back or whatever

P2W isn't against the Hytale eula anyway
This aforementioned section is vague, and it's not explicitly mentioned in the server operation section
Plus we have quotes from Simon that imply they're not illegal lol

Roblox is entirely predatory like this. No one seems to be angry about it in their community😅

I think rewarding the non-P2W instead of punishing the P2W is a better option.

Featuring servers on the official server list and giving them access to more things for example.

I have some plans for parental control options, where non-official servers / minigames have tags for parents to block. For example, if they run P2W systems or non-official avatar, you could block them.

Would not be for quite a while to see these systems in place, lot of work to do.

Both from Twitter

The fact that the EU has been talking about cracking down on pay-to-win mechanics doesn't mean it's illegal already

[tired scarab]

As statet the server source code will be provided (1-2 months) after the release. But will we have a dependency for the an API from the start (13. Jan)?

[sharp lake]

How do you mean "depending for the API"?

You'll be able to decompile the server and recompile it to make changes before the source is actually released
And you'll be able to write plugins with an API as well
Documentation might not exist yet, if that's what you mean

[tired scarab]

Jup thats what I mean

[daring lodge]

even most minecraft servers are not p2w because the items are obtainable for free too, you wont be able to distinguish between them unless the server is an egregious offender

[tired scarab]

But there is no official statement about an API right?

[sharp lake]

They have a blog post about modding, you can check their website for it

[silver cloak]

It is

[sharp lake]

Point to the section lol

[daring lodge]

i think all items should be obtainable without irl money, otherwise i think anythings fine tbh

[fleet isle]

That's where you get into the gray area of P2W where you can obtain items by playing the game or by purchasing them and effectively skipping the need to play

[sharp lake]

Check the community guidelines as well
And keep in mind the language they use around cheating and other exploits in both of those docs

[silver cloak]

Macolin Conv. Preamble

Macolin Art. 1(2)(a)

EP Res. 2022/2179(INI), para 92

UCPD Art. 5(1)

UCPD Art. 7

DCD 2019/770 Recital 23

DSA Art. 25

DSA Art. 28(4)

Digital Fairness Act Proposal (proposal not yet enforced)

[daring lodge]

bro chatgpted it

[silver cloak]

tl;dr Protects children from getting blasted with p2w content. Protects player vs player competitive integrity by disallowing p2w

[sharp lake]

Is this AI lol
Why are you referencing a treaty on sports betting and rigging 🤦🏻‍♂️

[silver cloak]

The f act that I am spending time replying to your cortisol bait is beyond diabolical. I wish discord had a way to ignore blocks completely. swear to god

[sharp lake]

3.2E in the EULA says "respect gameplay balance, safety, and integrity"
If you look at section 7.2, you'll see it's not explicitly mentioned again
And it specifically refers to cheating, which is easily argued to be the aforementioned "balance"
When you look at the community guidelines, the language used in 5 and 8 is very clear

Even the digital fairness act proposal referenced at the end of your list doesn't even appear to be relevant at all

The legislation will tackle dark patterns, personalisation, contracts, and influencer marketing.[4][5][6]

I'm not able to read the entire DCD 2019/770, but this is the 23rd section you referenced

Digital representations of value such as electronic vouchers or e-coupons are used by consumers to pay for different goods or services in the digital single market. Such digital representations of value are becoming important in relation to the supply of digital content or digital services, and should therefore be considered as a method of payment within the meaning of this Directive. Digital representations of value should also be understood to include virtual currencies, to the extent that they are recognised by national law. Differentiation depending on the methods of payment could be a cause of discrimination and provide an unjustified incentive for businesses to move towards supplying digital content or a digital service against digital representations of value. However, since digital representations of value have no other purpose than to serve as a method of payment, they themselves should not be considered digital content or a digital service within the meaning of this Directive.

And this doesn't even refer to P2W mechanics either

Why do you think Simon would argue with people on Twitter over the freedom approach and rewarding non-P2W servers if it were banned in the EULA or the EU lol

[sharp lake]

Aware that every country and every type of sport in the world may potentially be affected by
the manipulation of sports competitions and emphasising that this phenomenon, as a global
threat to the integrity of sport, needs a global response which must also be supported by
States which are not members of the Council of Europe;

Expressing concern about the involvement of criminal activities, and in particular organised
crime in the manipulation of sports competitions and about its transnational nature

[final oxide]

I'm not sure where you read that they "own" your work, it's not usual at all

[sharp lake]

I'm guessing it was a misunderstanding of section 3.4

To the extent your Mods are used with or shown within the Game or the Service, you grant Hypixel Studios Canada a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to host, reproduce, adapt, modify, create derivative works, display, distribute, and use your Mods for any purpose as we may determine is necessary to operate and promote the Game and the Service.

[final oxide]

The question is, if you edit the server to create a "mod" ,"plugin", are you showing it "in" the game ? I'm not sure

I'm not a lawyer, but that's weird regarding to EU laws to grab property so straight

(sorry if everything has already been discussed, I'm late to the party 😁 )

[empty nest]

Even if they ban p2w, they can't control all servers, or they have to make people work a little harder to open a server so that not everyone can open it at their own server

[sharp lake]

I'm not sure either, could be referring to a marketplace of some kind
It does sound like it could be stretched to include anything literally loaded into the game lol

Like, the wording there would make sense for uploading your mod to their mod browser
Though some of them are kind of strange :/

An irrevocable license to create derivative works seems a bit excessive
But that could just be a way too permissive way of saying "when we update the game, we can update your mod"

[empty nest]

What will server owners sell? Cosmetics? This is already available in Hytale, otherwise it's all p2w.

[sharp lake]

I mean, they can sell both
They could sell DLCs, there are probably a lot of other things

Reserved player slots, unbans lol

[west elk]

Selling unbans is diabolical, lol

[sharp lake]

Lmfao yeah we were talking about it earlier

Up here

I suppose another thing could be like, a reputation system
Giving kudos to other players and what-not, paid members could give more kudos or have more influence otherwise
Which isn't really pay-to-win, because it's a rep system lol

[empty nest]

I think selling unban is unethical

[sharp lake]

Yeah

I suppose selling server access to begin with could also be considered non-P2W?

5$ or whatever to join, like how they do on some Minecraft bedrock edition servers 💀

Give people a demo of some sorts: 20 minutes of gameplay, 4 rounds of minigames
And then lock them out until they purchase full access 💀

[empty nest]

Preventing someone from getting ahead in the game by paying money is called skin in games, but we don't even know what to do and why right now.

[sharp lake]

I don't think I understand what you mean

[empty nest]

I mean preventing a person from gaining an advantage in a game by paying money is referred to as ‘skins’ in games, but right now we don’t even know what we’re doing or why we’re doing it.

[sharp lake]

I mean, there are other things you can sell that don't provide an advantage
Besides skins or 'cosmetics'
That's what I was trying to list above lol

Server-wide XP and damage boosts? That's like P2W but it's global, so Idk whether that affects it fundamentally

[stark sphinx]

never have I ever heard the word "skins" be used in that way

[sharp lake]

"Fortnite skins" is a term I've heard

Or "weapon skins" for like, Call of Duty

[stark sphinx]

but how's that "preventing a person from gaining an advantage"

[sharp lake]

I think they're just flipping what they mean

Like, it's an example of something that doesn't give an advantage

[stark sphinx]

I'm getting too old for this kid slang

[empty nest]

Selling skins in games—like weapon skins or character skins—doesn’t give players an advantage, because no extra abilities are added; it’s only visual. Now, it seems like Hytale offers something similar, but server owners might not be able to sell these, or they might create and sell different kinds of items instead.

[sharp lake]

I think he's just Turkish 😂

[stark sphinx]

yeah, doesn't give an advantage
what I'm confused about is the word "prevent" there

[sharp lake]

We have the legal documents, so we know what server owners can sell
And they've talked about some of it already

Extra save slots is another example of something you could sell that isn't necessarily P2W

[empty nest]

By prevent, what I meant is preventing players from getting ahead of others by paying money.

[sharp lake]

Early access to beta regions and content is another thing you could sell

I suppose a prioritized position in a server queue, as opposed to reserved slots
Is another another thing

[empty nest]

I agree

[stark sphinx]

selling skins doesn't "prevent" that in any way, but I get your point now, just language barrier I suppose

[empty nest]

Yeah, that’s right, I was just having trouble explaining it properly

[old moon]

You mean physical regions on the server?

[sharp lake]

Yeah

Like if you're adding a new "kingdom" or whatever, and you want to test with a smaller group
People could pay to be part of that beta testing group

Getting early access could be an advantage I suppose, but it's more of an avid supporter thing I think?

[old moon]

I thought buying locations on the server isn’t allowed?

Like that is limiting for players no? And kind of pay to win

[sharp lake]

P2W is allowed lol

[old moon]

Oh it is?

[sharp lake]

We just went through all the legal docs and some tweets a little bit ago

[old moon]

Well looking forward to Roblox 2.0

[sharp lake]

Up here

I think rewarding the non-P2W instead of punishing the P2W is a better option.

Featuring servers on the official server list and giving them access to more things for example.

[daring lodge]

i think they should add something about all items must be obtainable ingame somehow even if its hard

[old moon]

Yeah I agree ^

[sharp lake]

I think that would instantly kill seasonal items and the like

And it's best to tread carefully with regulations
If it's P2W, you don't get access to the server list

[old moon]

Well it would also instantly kill the server if seasonal items have unfair stats

[sharp lake]

And we know that P2W mechanics and gambling don't actually impact server income that much

[sharp lake]

Seasonal cosmetics would also be items lol

[daring lodge]

not cosmetics i mean

those can be exclusive paid, i mean in terms of gameplay impact

[old moon]

I am also not talking about cosmetics

[sharp lake]

The point is that blanket statements like "all items must be obtainable in-game" are too limiting

[old moon]

Depends if the grind is insane and you limit items based on level.

But at the same time I think there are a lot of factors that would instantly kill the vibe of gameplay whether it’s p2w or f2p

I guess it is nice that it will filter out the crappy servers from the insanely good servers lol

[sharp lake]

I think that giving more freedom to the users and server owners is the better default
Hytale is going to have first-party servers without P2W mechanics
And you'll almost certainly be able to filter out P2W

[daring lodge]

i kinda agree they shouldnt limit servers, but people will make advertisment and get youtubers to promote their p2w servers exclusively to kids

[sharp lake]

That one is actually illegal
Under the EU laws I was reading

[woeful depot]

They will just delist p2w servers from server browser

[sharp lake]

Specifically the celebrity endorsement part

[daring lodge]

theirs ways around it that is already being done

they just pay people to play and record their servers

[sharp lake]

Maybe, but Hytale could just enforce it more strictly

[old moon]

Influencers will damage their own reputation if they promote p2w

[sharp lake]

Lots have already too 🙈

[fleet isle]

I wonder how filtering would work if it was implemented. Like if your server has any kind of mechanic that could be considered P2W even if it's small, would that be automatically be considered as P2W?

[sharp lake]

I'd imagine if it's tagged, presumably by self-reporting
And if you abuse the tag system, Hytale could intervene

[old moon]

Yes for sure, any small advantage that regular players can’t get is p2w

[stark sphinx]

damn this one was funny
went through all the articles and none of them had anything to do with the topic xD

[sharp lake]

Literally what I did too 🤦🏻‍♂️
Love people who believe everything AI tells them

[daring lodge]

i dont think p2w is that bad if the stuff isnt locked exclusively

[sharp lake]

I think P2W is lame as frick lmao
I've never designed anything P2W nor have I ever paid for things on a P2W server

[daring lodge]

yeah i didnt either, feels wrong to charge people for that stuff, but a lot of servers have the greediest owner ever

[sharp lake]

I didn't understand I was even on P2W servers when I was a child
I just had a budget of 0$ and did trades with people basically
Like, literal IRL trades where they would buy me a rank and I'd give them items

[fleet isle]

I was more wondering about the "gray P2W" where regular players are still able to gain the same advantage as paying players, it's just instead paying real money they would pay the in-game currency which you would be able to acquire on that specific server.

[daring lodge]

same i have a top rank on every server ive played even though ive never spent a dime

[old moon]

Do you mean things like buying keys for loot boxes?

[sharp lake]

The servers I played got shot down around 2018 with the EULA changes LMFAO

[sharp lake]

I think like buying coins, which can be earned legitimately

The coins could be used to purchase ranks and whatever else

So yes, you could get it via normal progression
But you could also just pay to win lol

[old moon]

Ah, I think that is the nicer p2w ngl

[daring lodge]

a lot of servers do that now, except some top offenders

[sharp lake]

Idk, the scale can be pretty bad
That's how they make it super grindy to get things, but easy to get via $$

[fleet isle]

Let's imagine I have a some kind of a magic wand. There three ways to obtain said wand: Either by paying real money or by completing a dungeon or by buying in from an in-game merchant located somewhere on the map for in-game currency

[old moon]

Isn’t that how most mobile apps work nowadays?

[sharp lake]

Yeah, they're P2W and targeting children

[daring lodge]

unfortunely we cannot time travel finish our clash of clans upgrades

[sharp lake]

Roblox is also like that
P2W and targeting children

[stark sphinx]

i.e. pay2progress

[sharp lake]

Child gambling is really awful, and it's super widespread on those platforms too lol

[old moon]

Makes a lot of sense, sounds very close to most mobile micro transactions

[sharp lake]

LOL we have used P2W so many times that it's lost meaning

Progression is "winning"

[fleet isle]

So is that something that's acceptable or will this be fully classified as P2W and therefore will have to be properly labelled for example?

[old moon]

I swear some of these Roblox games cause brain rot and I unfortunately know that they will exist in hytale at large volumes.

[old moon]

I would say it should be labeled as p2w ngl, you are still technically paying to progress quicker than regular players

And that is an unfair advantage

[fleet isle]

Idk how well are you going to be able run a server that purely makes money from cosmetics to cover costs of running said server while still being the lucky one to be featured on the official server list

[woeful depot]

Do you think ToS is strict?

[sharp lake]

We did talk about other things that could be sold

[sharp lake]

Up here

[old moon]

It takes skill and perseverance to run a successful server. I think it’s unfair to have these crappy braindead servers take all the money while there is a large amount of creativity involved from artists and modders to create massive beautiful open world rpg styled gameplay.

[fleet isle]

Yeah I know. But if there is even a little bit of that advantage of any kind against regular players, will that disqualify you from being featured by Hytale?

[sharp lake]

Probably not

[woeful depot]

What's the solution to this? Join the caravan of braindead servers?

[old moon]

Why should be encourage p2w servers to exist when we want to have servers like wyncraft, potterworld etc shape the beautiful community of servers.

[sharp lake]

You don't encourage them, you just don't criminalize them either

[old moon]

I would rather earn less money and makes the most epic lotr like server possible

[sharp lake]

Hurt their discovery
If it's not in the list, children won't find it
And presumably it's kids who play those

[old moon]

And I am a software engineer so hytale becomes my hobby anyways.

[woeful depot]

Lotr? I would come visit yours

[old moon]

I will run my server of a raspberry pi if I have too

[sharp lake]

If their discovery suffers enough, they'll want to join everyone else as non P2W too

[woeful depot]

They'll just delist p2w servers and I believe servers are account bound so you need to buy game to list again

[fleet isle]

What if they pay one of those services that list servers regardless of whether they're P2W or not? Hytale themselves won't do it but what about others?

[old moon]

Oh that’s sick actually that would filter out a lot of them easily.

[woeful depot]

Yeah I read the ToS and it's so strict I wonder how will it work

[sharp lake]

Third party lists will always exist
But those don't matter anyway so

[daring lodge]

im just making my server break even, down with capitalism

[old moon]

I am too lazy 😭

[fleet isle]

I wouldn't completely rule them out cause I imagine if a player doesn't find a server in the server list, what are they gonna do next? Well probably go on Google, type "hytale servers" and whatever the first link is, they would click on it.

[old moon]

You probably can find all hytale servers possible no? Third party server lists won’t be a thing really?

The client will have a built in server list that we can filter?

[fleet isle]

If there is going to be a way to add a direct connection to a server, third party server lists will exist.

If Hytale will require all servers to be registered and therefore no direct connection is allowed then that's a different story but that's gonna make quite a lot of people upset too

[woeful depot]

At launch there won't be a server browser and when your server delisted people need to connect it with ip so third party lists will exist but will be less popular thanks to server browser

[vernal niche]

☕

[fleet isle]

Java or Microsoft Coffee? 😂

[vernal niche]

Arabica

[empty nest]

HDHDHSHSHSHMDKDJDHDHF

[sacred tulip]

Do Roblox server list exists?

Probably more similar to Roblox than Minecraft in this aspect

[stray pasture]

The only other ones who do this is Minecraft that I know of. Reason why they are able to make mods, maps, maybe I read it wrong, but that is what it sounds like.

You know what would get a lot of respect? Writing in English with clear intent. 😄

[stray pasture]

I mean you have the literal Roblox website. But I dont actually know about 3rd party lists.

Hyrale could implement a server EULA, much like Minecraft (explicitly banning unfair paid reqards such as P2W, gaining extra privileges due to paying money. This should he the way. 😄

Also are they going to actually moderate servers and their content? (Unlike Minecraft who should have been but wasnt. :P)

[fleet isle]

I guess we will have to wait and see

[light lance]

I mean, at some point its not Hytale's responsibility to "take down" servers. There are always gonna be 3rd party lists that have p2w servers, and at some point its on the people who host it as well as the people who join to play.

You wouldn't go after AMD because their CPU was used to host a p2w server, so as long as Hytale delists the server from the in game browser and maybe warns people about predatory servers(?), then i think thats good. Part of the deal of not locking down the server jar and creative tools is that some people will absolutely try to exploit them for predatory practices, but I think its worth it for the amount of creative freedom the wider community will get.

At some point the buck passes from Hytale onto the server hosters, the 3rd party lists, and the people who join those servers

[silver cloak]

Respecting player integrity mentioned in 3.2 seems like you shouldn't make p2w features

[sacred tulip]

Just don't play p2w servers

[silver cloak]

Traditional mc servers rely on gambling / betting (crates) which are illegal (If you don't define the chances or promote them to children)

[sacred tulip]

If enough people don't like p2w there will be enough servers without it

[stray pasture]

You heard of Roblox?

[silver cloak]

There always be money grabbers that's for sure

But usually these type of servers die out long before they receive any letters from hytale

[sacred tulip]

The few games I've played on Roblox were not p2w

[woeful depot]

Steal a brainrot

[stray pasture]

The most popular Roblox games are purely pay to win.

I think most people don't realize many have a "lack" of restraint.

Just because you dont, doesn't mean 65 Million follow you.

[woeful depot]

I hope simon rewards non-p2w games!

[stray pasture]

This is not a "just dont play them"

It is more of "protection" from them.

[silver cloak]

P2W like what?

Honestly. We got consumer laws that protect us from "bad p2w" anyway. If you promote gambling to children that's a no no (most servers do that)

[light lance]

Yeah, I don't think its Hytale's responsibility to "protect" people from their own lack of restraint. They shouldn't allow p2w or predatory practices on the in game browser, but after that its up to the people to not play p2w. Roblox's problem is that the p2w is on the main platform browser lmao, thats a huge issue

[silver cloak]

Is it illegal though

[stray pasture]

This is my point. I dont care about your amfriends server. 😛 But if your Hypixel you have a standard.

[woeful depot]

How does it work in minecraft?

Everytime I open youtube I see another p2w server

[silver cloak]

Yeah like someone mentioned above, they are not enforcing the rules

[woeful depot]

And some servers make lootboxes not random but they still give huge advantages

[woeful depot]

Yeah mc is abandoned

[polar juniper]

im seeing talk about "p2w sucks" and im just gonna drop my 2 cents and leave
p2w is a must if you want to make money in open world games

[silver cloak]

Minecraft is pg 13 meaning gambling shouldn't be allowed (illegal). If I sue the store owner then they will be forced to answer the call

[silver cloak]

I agree. I will be doing p2w stuff to my server as well

I think it's totally fine when you have a PVE server to just buy personal XP boosters

[stray pasture]

This is not true in the slightest. Nobody requires P2W, just balance your server and make paying for things genuinely novel and fun! Reason vs desperation.

[woeful depot]

We don't plan on making our server P2W. We will see how will it goes

[polar juniper]

It is true actually lol. I've tried on multiple occasions to remove p2w from our server but we were unable to hit profit margins by a mile

[silver cloak]

What's p2w to you?

It depends how far you want to go. I mean games like WoW or wizard101 literally gatekeep you. If you don't get a subscription you can't move forward

[woeful depot]

Our server is competitive pvp so we can't allow ppl to spend money and abuse the pvp

[polar juniper]

we sell bundles & non gambling crates

[silver cloak]

I think we as players have the right to define that ourselves. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesnt

[stray pasture]

P2P vs P2W, one gives a pure advantage in return for money.

[silver cloak]

Yeah but does it matter if it's not competitive?

I think the reason we are discussing P2W is because it's harming children

[stray pasture]

If it doesn't give an advantage over somebody else, no. Reason for the "win" part. It differentiates from "pay to progress"

[calm oyster]

P2P is worse than P2W

[elfin horizon]

that is such a dumb take.

[silver cloak]

idk to me there's nothing immoral about p2w, as long as it doesn't harm children

[calm oyster]

So you rather have to pay to play at all, than pay to win

[elfin horizon]

100% of the time

[stray pasture]

If I were on a kit pvp server and paid $100 I should not be able to one shot from across map. 😛 - But under yalls idea, this is totally fine!

[calm oyster]

P2W isn’t even that bad, half the time the people who do it are terrible at the game and you can beat em anyways

[silver cloak]

To me, this falls under the game design category. You harm your brand if you do shi like that

It's like offering flying and god mode in CoD. Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it? No

[woeful depot]

Imagine paying 20 more usd just to see outside of the spawn

[silver cloak]

P2P is this dragon server on bedrock 💀 that server is diabolically bad

[woeful depot]

bruh

[silver cloak]

You can only access the lobby

[calm oyster]

Pay 10$ per step you take

[silver cloak]

Connect your card and play

[calm oyster]

Sounds like an EA game

[woeful depot]

What are you going to use NPCs for? So many options

[calm oyster]

To have conversations with

[woeful depot]

I just watched wynncraft video it guides player in tutorial lol

[silver cloak]

p2w is the easiest way to make money if you are broke...

Not many people can hire artists or have the talent to create their own cosmetics

[calm oyster]

just use ai

[silver cloak]

You could but don't you need a license if you wanted to sell these cosmetics?

[calm oyster]

legally sure

[woeful depot]

Yeah but why would people visit your server

[silver cloak]

Because it could be something like hypixel

[woeful depot]

Something big?

[silver cloak]

Where they fully utilise 1.8 without having to add resource packs

All the big servers peaked way before custom resourcepacks

[woeful depot]

Oh you mean that

[calm oyster]

all big servers have p2w aspects

[woeful depot]

That still don't answer why would play p2w server

[calm oyster]

people already do lol, why wouldn’t they?

[silver cloak]

Because p2w is an umbrella term

[viscid wren]

hypixel has resource packs in some games like Turbo Kart Racers and Warlords (and some others I don't remember), so that's not entirely accurate (or maybe it is, I'm not that knowledgeable on how the big servers were like during that time)

[calm oyster]

people hear p2w and think it’s impossible to win without doing it

[stray pasture]

This is he standard thought. It really just means to give a competitive advantage of any kind.

"Competitive" is assuming somebody is at a slight disadvantage.

[calm oyster]

Hypixel has gems, guess nobody else can stand a chance on the server!

[stray pasture]

Just because premium currency exists doesn't mean you gain competitive advantage. Cosmetics is not p2w

[calm oyster]

Gems doesn’t only give cosmetics..?

[elfin horizon]

ppl call p2w yo have cool cosmetics or have prio on the server, p2w is having advantage in game(and having prio is up there)

[woeful depot]

lmao

Usually because:
they are whales
they think “all games need money to survive”
they like having an advantage
they cope by pretending the game isn’t truly P2W```

[stray pasture]

I dont know. 😄 I dont play games long enough to know anymore. I make them. 😛

[calm oyster]

well it’s true that all games need money to survive, there’s definitely ways to go about doing it though

[elfin horizon]

another thing that ur ignoring that is a big point for p2p, is that p2p filters out 95% of the cheaters

[fleet isle]

Me looking at OpenTTD: Are you sure about that?

[sacred tulip]

I used to play a lot of sea of thieves, a free to explore world with no concept of winning so the goal of the game for most is to unlock cosmetics. More cosmetics is a way to show that you have a higher player level.

Some people I've played with (myself included) consider purchasing these cosmetics a form of p2w because you can shortcut the leveling process for cool cosmetics.

[stray pasture]

P2W is not cosmetic based - it is purly competitive advantage over another.

If I pay money and I have a higher chance of winning at the same skill level, that is P2W

[woeful depot]

yep

[elfin horizon]

if u consider skipping the gameloop and paying winning, that is ur pov

[viscid wren]

does higher chance in leaderboards also count as a non-P2W?

[elfin horizon]

what case are u talking about?

[stray pasture]

Depends on how your getting on the leaderboard.

[viscid wren]

examples:

• A Lifetime leaderboard that's progressed purely by cosmetics, and you can pay money to make it easier to obtain cosmetics, which leads you to having higher chance to be higher in the Leaderboard

• A Lifetime Leaderboard for your overall level of the entire server, that's also contributed to by the "cosmetic points" of the cosmetic

[woeful depot]

Lol

[stray pasture]

Usually "leaderboard" assumes competition, this would likely fall under P2W (That gets nuanced I don't personally care about leaderboards) 😛

[elfin horizon]

the paid cosmetics should never account for points. solved

[woeful depot]

You are not winning anything tho

What's leaderboard for? flexing only?

[fleet isle]

The feeling of being #1 could be considered as winning

[woeful depot]

Interesting

[fleet isle]

It's definitely going to have that push of "if I just buy 2 more cosmetics, I could be number one on the leaderboard"

[woeful depot]

Imagine an undercover admin buys so you are second again

[stray pasture]

Basically yes, that would be considered P2W but for how many care about "leaderboards" vs direct player to player interaction. (I couldn't care less, but if its not possible to be 1st because people are paying to be there instead, I would say that is just a terrible thing to do. 😄

[elfin horizon]

and lifetime leaderboards are usually not important in competitive games

it's usually just a flex, or a "archive" of long time players

it's like saying "i was diamond on season 3 of league" but u suck now

or at least that's how i see it

[stray pasture]

See this is the part of P2W I don't care for, it doesn't hurt MY fun. 😄

[woeful depot]

Like league of legends

[stray pasture]

There is a P2W leaderboard!!! Its called the top donators! 😛

[elfin horizon]

the p2w that is bad is when a player beats u without trying bc his sword deals 99999999 damage bc he bought a pack for 29.99 on the store xdd

[stray pasture]

Then leads into the whole other point that usually that would be tied to the leaderboard. 😛 - But yes, this is the stuff that I am talking about. 😄

[woeful depot]

I respect myself and I don't play games where you need to swipe ur card to have fun

[calm oyster]

that gets rid of almost every game

[stray pasture]

This is an interesting take. 😄

[calm oyster]

name 5 popular games that don’t have p2w aspects

[woeful depot]

CS2 Lol Dota many more

[viscid wren]

yeah, those make sense, i was just curious since I play on a MC minigame server that has those leaderboards

though in that server, the cosmetics that can be obtained only with real money, and the limited-time cosmetics, don't give any "points" that contribute to the leaderboards or to ur overall crown level, it's only the cosmetics that can be obtained F2P and aren't limited-time

[calm oyster]

If you can have fun playing CS2, i’m all for it..

[elfin horizon]

but lets have another point, something like pets and pet skins, and im gonna use wynncraft as an example cus i played it recently.
u can get a free pet in wynncraft, it's a dumb looking chicken and u have to buy it from the store(for free). Or u can spend money and have more pet slots, and more cool looking pets.
For me this goes into p2w.

[stray pasture]

Valhiem, Deep Rock Galactic, For Honor

[calm oyster]

Cs2 drives me insane

[woeful depot]

Bro u're playing fivem you are ofcourse be used to paying for a villa in a random place in map

[calm oyster]

the server i play doesn’t even have a store

[stuck breach]

no one way u guys debating a game that hasn't come out yet

[woeful depot]

There are non p2w games and people play them it's another reality of world

[stray pasture]

What are you winning? Is there a competitive advantage to owning this pet chicken? - Cosmetic?

[woeful depot]

If you are saying list top 5 MMORPG game where it's not p2w there are only few

[stuck breach]

in reality, games should be able to charge what ever they want for cosmetics cause like it's on you if u buy them

[woeful depot]

Yup

[calm oyster]

i think we should allow people to pay to do more damage

[elfin horizon]

the pets fight for u and help u advance faster, and they look cool, but u can't unlock more than the dumb looking chicken no matter how much u play, the fact that the only option to get them is paying is the part that for me is a bit p2w

and it's not winning in a competitive aspect, is more of a personal "winning"

[stray pasture]

Ah, nah not P2W then. Just Pay to Progress.

[elfin horizon]

its more like a dlc? or something like that

[viscid wren]

I don't really play Wynncraft anymore, but I remember getting other pets that aren't the chicken for free
I don't remember how I got them, but I guess I can open Minecraft to see them

[elfin horizon]

maybe at events or something? i didn't see any, and tbh didn't play much

[elfin horizon]

if u ever make a hytale server, ik what server im not playing

[woeful depot]

We'll have bosses and dungeons so people can get more damage

[viscid wren]

sounds fairly likely,, I can't think of another way I might have gotten them
I just checked and looks like I have a total of 5 pets (including the free Store pet)

[elfin horizon]

im so looking for the custom instanced dungeons

[silver cloak]

🤑

These ideas are awesome... Can't wait for a youtuber to do just that

1000 damage cap. IF you want more you gotta buy a rank

[woeful depot]

Lol

[stray pasture]

Just make us pay for every step we take, add it to my tab and then put a lien on my house until I pay it back. (Works every time! At least EA had the idea)

[silver cloak]

Jokes aside, it's sad people look at hytale and mc server making only for the money

They are destined for failure

[stray pasture]

Well, indie dev is really hard, I can understand why! 😄 (I wanna get rich too!!!)

[silver cloak]

does he know...

[sharp lake]

Yknow what we need
A land claim plugin powered with NFTs
So you can literally buy and trade parcels

We also need something that queries the conversion rate of bitcoin and boosts your damage according to the market

So whoever has the most bitcoin wins, but it depends on when they buy it

[stray pasture]

Investments!

[sharp lake]

Paying to progress is pay to win lol

[stray pasture]

Depends if its competitvly advantagous.

If you don't compete against another player its pay to PERSONAL progress, if its against another player its competitively advantageous

[sharp lake]

By that logic, the latest server from Mojang isn't P2W lol

Or that most mobile games aren't either

Bloons TD6 supports paying money in order to get "double cash" mode, or even outright purchase the currency and knowledge points you earn from playing the game

So did Bloons TD5, and that one didn't have any competitive features at all

Now there are leaderboards in BTD6, but that's not why they're considered P2W microtransactions

You don't need competitive advantages, just advantages

[elfin horizon]

and that is why p2w is considered an umbrella term

[stray pasture]

Yes let me pay to win in my sims 4 world by buying addons

[sharp lake]

Aren't addons in the Sims literally cosmetics and furniture lol

When you look up the biggest P2W games in 2025, and scroll through and see what people bring up
You'll see titles like Candy Crush and Destiny 2
You can play Destiny 2 without any competitive play just fine, and as far as I'm aware, most people do

Classifying it as "pay to progress" instead of "pay to win" just causes the exact loopholes that we see already lol
And people consider those P2W servers on Minecraft

[stray pasture]

P2W is an umbrella term because nobody cares to actually explain.

Just because you spending money does not mean it is advantageous, BTD6 is quite literally NOT p2w for an example. You can buy in game currency to speed yourself up, but that doesn't affect another player because you don't play with other players all leaderboard values are accurate because you can't obtain characters due to paying. - Anyone with that item (obtained through the game) can get to your same level and score.

Pay 2 Win here literally is the definition that I MUST pay to compete at the same level you are. - Otherwise, you are paying to progress, pay to skip. Doesn't give a competitive advantage, but rather a speed up. In a true scenario 1000 hours no matter what you have could never beat a $10 bought item...

Now the thing that gets muddy is time investment, by definition it still isn't Pay to win.

[sharp lake]

Definition according to you? Look at how people use it, time investment is the primary thing people are concerned about
If someone can beat you with 30$ and 10 hours, despite your 140 hours of effort, they paid to beat you

[stray pasture]

Yes, they did, that is why time investment is a muddy area of pay to win. (Technically they have an advantage, but its not something that is advantageous forever, just faster progression)

[sharp lake]

If that's muddy, then every Minecraft P2W server is muddy lol
And none of them are P2W
So then Mojang is perfectly enforcing their community guidelines

And there is nothing to be done

[stray pasture]

Can a dedicated free player ever be on mechanically equal footing with a paying player? If yes = pay-to-skip. If no = P2W.

[sharp lake]

By that definition, then most of what we just talked about is pay to win due to realistic time constraints
How much time does the average player have? If the progress is impossible to catch up with, then it's pay to win
And in the majority of circumstances, it is
That's why we call it pay to win

If it wasn't a noticeable boost, people would think it's a scam
And if it's too noticeable of a boost, people call it P2W

The literal primary thing people care about is time, that's why P2W even exists
It's a time investment

If it's more effective to get a real life job once a week than it is to play your game that day
Then it's pay to win lmfao

[stray pasture]

This is a fantastic counter point! - Your right! If the free player requires 2K hours vs 50 hours for paid, then that is a competitive advantage in any meaningful way. - This is absolutely p2w.

[sharp lake]

We actually have some pretty good market stats on the time constraints, and the number is 13 hours a week

Or at least it was 2 years ago or so, comfortably after the pandemic boom

So if 300 hours of progress can be purchased, that would require 23 weeks to surpass

You could comfortably double the number if you wanted to, like if your market is kids
And say that they can game a lot more than average
But even then, 5-10 weeks to match the progress is brutal

Community events aiding new players is how you fix the disparities for long-term players
Or something like prestiges that give you new things, but reduce your apparent strength

[stray pasture]

Though this still is what I was mentioning, while it sounds achievable on paper, it really is not. 23 weeks is half a year (likely updates and content) - Keeps the paying player literally on a different competitive ground.
While not directly a purchase of unobtainable items, it is a purchase for unobtainable gap that is likely to never be closed.

Competitive advantage. Literally my entire argument.

[sharp lake]

It doesn't necessarily need to be a competitive one, is my point
It just has to be any advantage
The play can be personal and the game can still be P2W

[stray pasture]

If I am farming but it harms nobody and I buy the largest farm has zero bearing on anyone else - literally fully isolated. (This is not P2W)

What are you winning?

[sharp lake]

Achievements, literally any other indicator of progress, those are things you're winning lol
Mobile games are famous for this
They're not all MMOs

[stray pasture]

"Competitive" - That is still competitive

[sharp lake]

How is that still competitive
When you mine a tree in Minecraft and it tells you "Getting Wood", who are you competing with

If you could pay to fast travel to the nearest forest to get wood easier, how is that not a P2W microtransaction

[elfin horizon]

by this standards my earlier point on wynncraft pets gets into the p2w model and not pay to skip, cus u can't just unlock more pet slots by just playing

[stray pasture]

Yes! That is true. Though this was infromation that I didn't have at the time.

[sharp lake]

There are an absolute ton of games on Roblox where you progress slowly, and don't compete with other players
People still consider these games to market P2W gambling to children
Personal accomplishment is a thing that naive people will buy; they want to win

[normal ocean]

Most p2w servers in mc get around this (avoiding the Eula) by making it possible to get the thing you are paying for without paying, but making it hard or impossible

[sharp lake]

See, even in that sentence we're still calling it "P2W servers"

We were talking about some monetization methods yesterday, this is kind of a list of the things I said at least:

• Early access to beta content
• Priority in server queues
• Reserved player slots
• Extra save slots
• Server-wide XP and stat boosts
• Paid access to the server itself
• Paid access to the server after a short demo
• Granting more influence in a player kudos system
• Purchasable ban appeals
• Paywalled DLC content
• Ad space for player markets
  A lot of these are debatably P2W but don't hit the traditional mold

[elfin horizon]

they are in the gray zone for sure

but something as paid server access depends entirely on how the server is structured, i wouldn't qualify it as "p2w" at all

[sharp lake]

I think those are actually closer to gray than literal paying to progress, in games where progression is literally how you win

[sharp lake]

Paid server access isn't really debatable, it's not P2W
It's the other things, like skipping queues and reserved player slots

When you have to pay 5$ for a game, but there are no ways to pay later to boost your progress
People don't classify them as P2W games, just paid games

[elfin horizon]

that still depends on server structure too

[sharp lake]

Early access to beta content could be considered pay to win
Because then you get the head-start, and that could be especially relevant with a player market

[elfin horizon]

if u have so much ppl playing on the server that u need queues, i don't think it's bad to have a supporter option to eventually expand the server

another thing is if u don't expand the server and just pocket the money

[sharp lake]

Yeah, there are definitely reasons to monetize in this way
And lots of people would prefer this style of monetization over what we've seen in other places
Queues are literally against Mojang's EULA though, last I heard

So queues are bad, but child gambling is fine because it's not really pay-to-win, it's pay-to-progress! And it's not really gambling, because it's not a slot machine; it's a randomized reward device with varying levels of value!

We love Mojang, they're the true protectors of the community 😍

[stray pasture]

They do a bit more than Roblox at least.

[elfin horizon]

and that is why hytale exists c:

[sharp lake]

LMFAO yeah I suppose that's the bar
I don't see headlines about groomers in Minecraft every other week, it's more like every 4-9 months

[stray pasture]

Well not just yet 🙃

[elfin horizon]

soon my friend, soon

[sharp lake]

Yes I'm actually excited lol
Though these problems are going to exist on both, especially given how it's not even going to be illegal to do P2W Hytale servers
At least the EULA will be consistent, and the game will actually acknowledge the community's feedback at all

[stray pasture]

Well they have only issued their first EULA - That is subject to change. Minecraft was consistant on its first EULA too!

[sharp lake]

Getting rid of P2W isn't something I'd expect to change, because that's what pissed them off in the first place way back when

I'm hoping it won't be too prevalent, given the hypothetical cons of being a P2W server
But we'll be seeing how Hytale incentivizes fair servers

[stray pasture]

Well and after our whole conversation you can't get rid of P2W because everyone has a different defintion. 😄 Somebody will come around and say a server is P2W even if many don't agree

[elfin horizon]

and they can go play another server c:

[stray pasture]

Basically yeah! The answer is "I don't personally like this one"

[sharp lake]

With legal documents, you just define P2W yourself lol
And it'd be up to them for enforcement

[stray pasture]

This is actually a fair point. 😄

Write it in stone, people can take it up against your written definition, not a bad idea

[sharp lake]

Well that's kind of how it works 🙈
Like if you read the EULA they have right now, you'll see them defining "mods" and "the game" and all sorts of generic terms

This Hytale End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is between you ("you" or "user") and Hypixel Studios Canada inc. ("Hypixel Studios Canada", "we", "us", or "our")

[stray pasture]

Yeah, but I feel this is differnet then what people call P2W for. I mean Hypixel can state P2W doesn't exist but they could sell stupid powerful items. 😄 I don't think that would work very well. 😄

[sharp lake]

There's a whole definitions page on the terms of service

2.7 "Minor" means a user who is below the minimum legal age of adulthood or majority in that user's jurisdiction of residence.

2.11 "Virtual Currency" means fictional virtual currency that may be used to obtain Virtual Items.

[sharp lake]

Yeah, it doesn't work nicely with the community if you fully change the definition, but legally that's how it goes

[stray pasture]

That is a fair point. 😄 - Make your terms they did agree to them!

Bots? - Oh man those are legit accounts actually. Oof sounds scammy

[sharp lake]

💀 💀 I wonder what name he's trying to get

His discord username is literally idhnause
I don't think that's going to get taken so lol

If you're a celebrity, you can just talk to Hytale about getting the name you want

[elfin horizon]

o7

[stray pasture]

0.o

[elfin horizon]

rip bozo

[sharp lake]

Hytale is protecting usernames of small creators, just talk to them

Hills instantly deleted their message when I replied, maybe you're right about bots 😭

[elfin horizon]

they senmt the same message on every chat

[stray pasture]

I am buying

Asks for a token like we have them

Declares them selves for TikTok

Do you have to even pre order the game to get a name reservation? Why offering to pay the price

Sounds very bot like

[elfin horizon]

and got deleted, looks like a ban

[sharp lake]

LOL

[stray pasture]

🤣

[sharp lake]

Idk it says he's still here @silk loom

[stray pasture]

Oof and hes gone!

[elfin horizon]

maybe just got purged xD

[stray pasture]

Mods are on it!

[sharp lake]

It's possible they just added a filter for begging

I'm not gonna pretend to beg to test it though 💀

[woeful finch]

you can /report them. I did that

[sharp lake]

I'm hoping I get my name, I don't plan on pre-ordering if I don't LOL

[stray pasture]

Had no idea! Thanks

[sharp lake]

oh no i'm doomed

I spend all day arguing with people about server plugins 🙈

[elfin horizon]

im more of a lurker but when i saw someone saying they prefered p2w over p2p i had to jump in XD

[stray pasture]

🤣 This totally a valid reason

[sharp lake]

I don't think you can use p2p as shorthand for this topic 💀
It has other meanings

[stray pasture]

Don't worry I do too! - I got work on one monitor and Discord on the other - This doesn't mean I am activly working. It just makes me feel like I am.

[sharp lake]

Not one soul is going to know that a P2P server isn't a peer-to-peer server lol

[stray pasture]

Yeah we essentially came to the consenus that P2W basically means "I don't like your model of revenue" 😛

General understanding, but nuanced preference

[sharp lake]

P2W is just whether you can pay to get an advantage 😭
Any advantage at all, even in singleplayer

[stray pasture]

Nevermind we never came to a consensus. 😄 🤣

[sharp lake]

No bc you don't think "winning" is applicable 💀

You can "beat" a singleplayer game

[stray pasture]

Win vs complete | we are playing a game of semantics

[sharp lake]

You just use such a narrow definition of win, that literally nothing counts as pay-to-win
Even things that people widely consider pay-to-win

[elfin horizon]

the thing is, in single player, "winning" doesn't really exist

[stray pasture]

Well I don't WIN Skyrim! 😂

[sharp lake]

That is literally what people say
If you can lose, you can win

[elfin horizon]

"winning" implies there is a looser

[stray pasture]

I can't lose in Skyrim either. 😄

[sharp lake]

If you lose against a boss over and over again, you're not winning
If you can pay to beat the boss, you paid to win

[stray pasture]

Well then the boss can file a complaint!

[elfin horizon]

who is the looser tho?

[sharp lake]

If Skyrim offered microtransactions to skip bosses, people would call that pay-to-win and get pissed

[sharp lake]

You would be the loser, if you didn't win
So you paid to not be the loser, you paid to be the winner
You paid to win!

[hidden jasper]

last 12 hours you talk about nothing else but p2something, they said it before - they could mark server with some label as P2W.. who cares? Hypixel was p2w and stopped just because 2014 MC EULA and lost 80% revenue (so they started making own game few years later).. and they had PvP minigames, it's not like you got 1 extra claim on a Survival server, it was PvP.. Literally no one cares, start your own p2w discord where you could argue about it for next few days :D

[stray pasture]

😂 Maybe I will! 😛

[elfin horizon]

what did u lose tho? time? u are already losing it by playing games

[sharp lake]

This channel is literally about making plugins for Hytale
Server monetization is extremely relevant, because that's what people would make plugins for lol

[sharp lake]

You lost the fight in that example

[hidden jasper]

yes, and it's allowed, right? so what are we discussing

[elfin horizon]

can't u just try again?

[sharp lake]

What is and isn't considered pay-to-win lol

[civic wave]

What programming language will the plugins be in?

[stray pasture]

Definitions, morals, etc - Conversation about the topic

[hidden jasper]

mostly Kotlin

[sharp lake]

You sure can! That doesn't change the fact that you can also pay in order to win

[civic wave]

God

[stray pasture]

Java (JVM)

[civic wave]

Java too, I imagine.

[civic wave]

Ha Thank you

It works for me lol

[sharp lake]

There's a blog post that talks about the language
And it's mostly going to be Java, not Kotlin lol
Java's a more popular language and all the docs have been referring to it specifically so far

[stray pasture]

I have heard a few covnersations about bindings and bridges to C#, Rust, etc (Community, not official)

[elfin horizon]

i think they said they are working on a node system for the server plugins, but basicly java

[hidden jasper]

Kotlin is just better Syntax for java, it's compatible with all Java code and libraries

[sharp lake]

Language adapters I think is the term people use for that

[civic wave]

If they add engines from other programming languages as well, such as Ruby, Python, JS, etc.

[stray pasture]

Community likely

[sharp lake]

Like how we have a language adapter for Kotlin in the Fabric modloading community

[fleet isle]

I think I can find examples where it absolutely breaks down

[civic wave]

Yes

[pulsar scarab]

theyre using java to create plugins right?

[civic wave]

Yes

[pulsar scarab]

double checking, as im gonna be working on some plugins

[civic wave]

In Nukkit from Minecraft Bedrock xd

[hidden jasper]

It's just different syntax, all Java, Scala, Kotlin etc. compile into JVM, so choose just best syntax you can

[civic wave]

Question: What version of Java are you using?

The 25th, right?

[fleet isle]

8th XD /j

[woeful depot]

Java 25

[loud umbra]

which language is used for modding?

[sharp lake]

Java

[dull thunder]

Dev docs anywhere?

[loud umbra]

omfg

[sharp lake]

Not yet lmao

[elfin horizon]

yeah we don't really know yet

[timber heath]

Yo just read that they're not going to have text-based programming. I am so sad.

[fleet isle]

It would be funny if the only way to get docs is to pay for the game

[loud umbra]

for real I have to deal with the shi*ty Java while game is likely written in C++/C#?

[sharp lake]

They're going to focus on a proper modding API, rather than a scripting API

So if you make a proper plugin, it'll be fine

[loud umbra]

scripting language is better as it can be then transplited into server code or something

[stray pasture]

Server is JAVA, Un moddble client is C#

People planto write language adaptors for .net etc

[rich solar]

You are free to not deal with Java and not do Hytale things. 🙂

[woeful depot]

Server is written in java so yes

[timber heath]

Yea I'm still turned off though by it. Just my opinion though. I'm sure many people will enjoy that.

[woeful depot]

You can always go out and touch some grass

[loud umbra]

luckily there are AI tools now

[loud umbra]

I believe you code the entire day

[hidden jasper]

You can use Kotlin

[woeful depot]

I wonder what script kiddies would do without AI

[loud umbra]

if you like to code like 3x longer, there you go

[sharp lake]

I had a knee jerk reaction too, but I think it makes sense
They were talking about having two half-baked solutions, instead of one proper one
And I think that's right actually, plus if a scripting engine is really that important
A community member could make a Lua one really really easily

[rich solar]

Script kiddies are those who use scripts and dont make their own. So using AI technically upgrades them...

[stray pasture]

THAT IS WHAT I SAY!!!

[sharp lake]

Like genuinely among the first plugins is probably going to be a Lua interpreter lol

[stray pasture]

Well this little script kiddy is a professional! 😄

[leaden anchor]

hello guys, what programming language will be used on hytale to create plugins etc...?

[stray pasture]

Java

[rich solar]

Java

[loud umbra]

well.. Minecraft Bedrock used to have TypeScript..

[leaden anchor]

okk ty

[sharp lake]

that is fckin hilarious i had no idea

[fleet isle]

Can't wait for all the people trying to plug an AI generated Minecraft plugin into Hytale thinking it's a Hytale plugin

[sharp lake]

Inevitable, it'll be great

[loud umbra]

I used to mod games in Lua and TypeScript.. but man.. strict types in TS is a beauty