server-plugins-read-only

[prisma agate]

They said it'll take a while for the source iirc

Due to legal stuff

[dusky plume]

source is released since day 1, without documentation or api

thats what they said

[novel barn]

they said source will take a while after release for legality stuff

[prisma agate]

I don't think so?

[novel barn]

"We will provide server source code access within several months, once we're legally ready to do so"

[dusky plume]

well, officially yeah, but server is going to be released without obfuscation

you can decompile, read and recompile

[novel barn]

yeah but thats a decompilation not source

[dusky plume]

you can read the .class files as they are in the project

[novel barn]

yes by decompiling

[dusky plume]

its the same as releasing the source

you just get the source by yourself

[novel barn]

its not releasing source 😭

[dusky plume]

xd

[novel barn]

its getting src yourself

[dusky plume]

decompile and pull it to git

the its source released

[novel barn]

better be on gittea 😭

[sharp jacinth]

Yeah them releasing code as intellectual property and you opening recaf are different
Your decompilation won't include the comments and maybe doculentation they will release along with the source

[prisma agate]

It's not, class files strip local identifiers, comments, and decompilers use their own formatting, not the original formatting

[daring lodge]

we need the build.gradle

[prisma agate]

Actually does the server have any deps?

[hoary robin]

wha

[prisma agate]

Hopefully it doesn't

[arctic mist]

My guess is no dependencies, but depending on how riot/original dev team went on the server development.

[prisma agate]

Riot probably only interfered with the cpp ver

If it has deps it'd be annoying to build, in which case getting the build files would be nice

[cinder kiln]

I don't see a world where it has zero external dependencies, I would be surprised it it doesn't use netty even tbh

[arctic mist]

Build Hytale Server Speedrun

[prisma agate]

Actually I haven't used java in a while, what is inside it's standard lib and I can import without deps

Surely it has basic tcp/udp network code in it?

[cinder kiln]

Yes, it does, but it's not the easiest to build off of and you save a *lot* of time and effort by using something like Netty or Spray

[arctic mist]

Already covered by java dot net and java dot io packages so at least the network part is covered

[novel barn]

if i had to guess, probably netty

[arctic mist]

If they didn't reinvent the wheel as well I would say Netty. But even if we have to build it, usually Gradle/Maven are really quick

[prisma agate]

I don't see why, all u really need is listen on a port, accept conns in a loop, spawn a green thread to handle the conn, then read/write raw bytes

What does netty do that makes this easier

[novel barn]

netty is already used in production everywhere and its fast

why make a car from scratch when people already make it

[prisma agate]

1. If the car sucks
2. For learning
3. So if something goes wrong with ur car, u can fix it yourself

[novel barn]

if something goes wrong its user fault 😭

[arctic mist]

In the most part yes, listen to a port for different packages. But reinventing the wheel from 0 and trying to do what already a framework as Netty do is just waste of resources and time.

[novel barn]

and netty is open source

[daring lodge]

hopefully they integrate cryptocoins somehow

[prisma agate]

No? Car mechanics exis

[novel barn]

??? 😭

[arctic mist]

If you want to build a car from 0, the time it takes to build it and the cost would be really far from buying a car or asking the fabric to produce one for you.

[prisma agate]

For cars maybe, but for code it's not always the case

[tidal mauve]

if it does they are shipped with the executable and you can just hard link to them

[prisma agate]

This has 0 explanation for what netty does that is useful compared to built-in java

[prisma agate]

For building from source

[novel barn]

netty been tested to hell for a decade

[tidal mauve]

yes

[novel barn]

its enough for a game server 😭

[cinder kiln]

Handles TCP framing for you
Handles the connection lifecycle for you
Handles backpressure for you
Has an optimized event loop that's been battletested for a decade (Minecraft client and server uses Netty)
It's buffer management is extremely efficient (it's effectively magic to me though)
Tons of builtin codecs, though most of them aren't useful for something like this
etc

[arctic mist]

Yes, you will learn how to make a car (code) , but it wont have all the reliability of a car designed by experts on focusing only the car (in this case, developers focues only on a framework for Network). You would reach the reliability of Netty one day, but after some insane time to build something that, well, already exists. Unless your solution is better than Netty, which I dont say is imposible, it would justify the effort. But even with the justification, the time to pull that off from 0 would ate Hytale development

[prisma agate]

So did the java built-in net package (whatever that is)

[novel barn]

you wont believe how netty works

[cinder kiln]

In very simple and complex applications you can get away with using the builtin NIO, sure, but you don't gain anything at all and will reinvent like 40 wheels

[arctic mist]

I think you are mixing concepts here, Java net package gives you the tool to do it from 0. Netty gives you already all the structures, backplate, algorithms and everything that you need for the network server that you want to build, and guess what? Netty uses Java nio package

[prisma agate]

So mostly for more packet management that is optimized? How does the interface differ from NIO? If it manages back pressure and stuff, I assume it needs some knowledge on the packet format (so it can distinguish between 2 separate packets)?

[novel barn]

nio doesnt optimize, thats why netty exists

[prisma agate]

I rolled my own packet framer in go, it's not that hard and only took a day or two to implement, for back pressure I just dropped packets once a queue was full, alternately I could've also blocked but in my case dropping was the better choice

[novel barn]

ok but for a game running on a mass amount of clients/servers, it's better to use something you already know won't cause problems

[cinder kiln]

i.. i'm not even going to bother, really, lol

[novel barn]

"i made a packet framer so everybody should" is the argument

[prisma agate]

No? I have no argument, I am just trying to understand why would someone use that

[novel barn]

so you can make the thing you want

not waste time on the network behind the thing you want

[tired geyser]

Why even use a processor honestly

[novel barn]

why would someone buy a cpu when you can make your own

[tired geyser]

Precisely what I'm getting at vops you get it

[arctic mist]

What protocols do your packet framer support? Is it thread safe? Against an already developed packet framer, is it better in performance? Could you warranted that your solution is ready for live production environment? What about the support? Does it have documentation available?

[prisma agate]

It doesn't take that long, so it's mostly a tradeoff between complexity vs benefit it gives, and I haven't used it, so I didn't know about the benefits (so I asked and Lilian answered)

[arctic mist]

Hold my transistors there

[novel barn]

how long does it take to ensure that its compatible with all users, safe from exploits, etc

[tired geyser]

Netty being developed since 2004

[dusky plume]

why dont just build another framework and you have 24 frameworks competing

[tired geyser]

Whos older Netty or Kyren?

[prisma agate]

JSON and msgpack, and can be expanded easily, it's just the 2 that made the most sense for my project, yes the entire protocol is documented, it is thread safe
And I was running it on my own vps running the server for the project

I didn't compare perf with anything else bcz I had no reason to, but it can probably scale to 1k+ connections (I don't have that many users, so I can't know for sure)

[tidal mauve]

json aint a protocol

thats a data format man

[prisma agate]

It's what I used for data serialization

[tidal mauve]

thats so different from what was asked though aint it

[leaden zephyr]

[tired geyser]

🍿

[shy crest]

Now I was of the impression that they had implemented hot reloading, even for mods. Is that true?

[tidal mauve]

says so in the modding wiki

[shy crest]

That's nuts. I can't wait to try it out.

[tidal mauve]

though im not sure how official or confirmed the wiki is

but iirc its knowledge base from QnA and other posts, blogs and comments

[shy crest]

Something tells me that the JVM is relied heavily on in order to get hot reloading for mods. Windows processes don't usually like it when you start rewriting their instruction RAM midway through. But with the JVM, it's much more forgiving since it's all technically data-driven.

[novel barn]

i mean you can already hot reload stuff pretty well when making stuff for fabric

[magic stirrup]

If they use netty for the server, it'll be very interesting. The quic codec of netty is still in incubator state. I guess Hytale will battletest that part.

[devout cipher]

evening all

[west yew]

Do we know what protocol servers will support already?

[west elk]

No, only that it'll be QUIC-based

[west yew]

Thanks. Need to start planning these updates for my server list site. 😅

[fringe ore]

There's like 20 people making automation projects. I hope we all can just work on a few good ones

[plush torrent]

Battle royals are more fun though

[tired scarab]

The server software will come with the release right?

[near raptor]

Yes but the source won't be available at launch yet, that will follow some months later

[pliant sand]

Will the backend still use Java?

[brittle estuary]

Yeah

[pliant sand]

Thanks!

[severe lagoon]

I don't get this. Why would they do this. To torture me?

[tired scarab]

Using java?

[severe lagoon]

exactly

[tired scarab]

What would you prefer?

[severe lagoon]

Well I assumed they would use c# since they claimed to have used it to build the game. So why the second language that is similar to c# but worse in every way at least I can think of it?

[near raptor]

The client is written in C#, but the server in Java

[pliant sand]

I honestly think Java is the best option we could’ve gotten, so many Minecraft mod and plugin developers can start creating content from day 1

[tired scarab]

+1

[severe lagoon]

Well I disagree here. Introducing old stuff into a new project just because many people have started to enjoy their torture chamber does not sound fun to me.
But I see your point.

[compact crypt]

what thing from java is exactly painful for you?

[tired scarab]

To be fair if the base is java you are free to use Kotlin instead of java and I would argue that kotlin is even better than C# for most people

[near raptor]

"old stuff"? Java is very much still in use, also outside of Hytale. But eh, you can also use alternative JVM languages like Kotlin (which I use personally).

[leaden zephyr]

Java came out 5 years before C#, and they're so similar anyway. I really don't get the argument. It might be personal preference, but they're practically twins.

[severe lagoon]

Well apart from some personal preferences, mainly the tooling is painful for me.

[tired scarab]

Wooowww, okay I dont want to start a programming language war. But java has by FAR the best tools and ecosystem of all the programming langauges (maybe js is better, if npm was not there)

And like I said there is still Kotlin which can be used

[compact crypt]

Intellij has one of the nicest debuggers i've seen

[hollow hollow]

Every language is a tool, pick the best tool for the job.

[leaden zephyr]

^

[tired scarab]

There is a huge difference between them nowadays, C# has passed java in terms of programmer friendliness but java is catching up since they commited to do 2 releases per year

But some features are still lacking, like where is my null safety?

[cinder kiln]

Another thing is that there's plenty of existing large plugins that are built to be platform-agnostic (e.g., LuckPerms) so porting something like that to Hytale wouldn't be impossible

[leaden zephyr]

You're always free to create your own server implementation in C# or whatever language you prefer later on.

[tired scarab]

yes by far

[tidal mauve]

maven my beloved

[severe lagoon]

I am disgusted

[pliant sand]

And profiling tools

[daring lodge]

were not in java 8 stone ages

[leaden zephyr]

I feel like they're still pretty similar. Both are missing some features the other has, but I'd agree they're both great languages. If you ask me, it's just personal preference.

[leaden zephyr]

Why though? What specifically do you dislike about it?

[cinder kiln]

I don't prefer the choice of Java over C# either but it's perfectly logical why they chose it

[tidal mauve]

id say i dont care.
as long as its a language which is readable (not rust or python) i will write in whatever i need to

give me cpp modding

[cinder kiln]

I suppose nothing would be stopping you from making your own JNI+JVMTI based FFI ;p

[near raptor]

I would prefer the server to be written in Haskell, so that I can justify taking a 10 year course in Monads, but you can't have everything 🙁 /s

[leaden zephyr]

Give it some time, there'll probably be plenty of community server implementations or something like "Skript"? eventually.

[tidal mauve]

god my message just got censored and i dont see what couldve triggered it

cyrillic symbols are. for real?

[leaden zephyr]

🤣

[tidal mauve]

anyway, i forgot what i was saying

right.
server being written in java saves us the unbearable reality of most gaming servers - windows servers.
and while c# can be compiled for linux, the process is much less versatile compared to what java offers

something makes me doubt itll come out as a ready to use docker image either

[woeful depot]

You will be fine

[near raptor]

A ready to use Docker image would be nice, but is indeed unlikely. Though dockerizing something is usually not too big of a deal.

[woeful depot]

Pterodactyl egg will be out on day 1 by the studio or the community so don't worry about deploying it

[cinder kiln]

Someone will probably have a docker image and pterodactyl/pelican egg made in an hour of its release lol

[tidal mauve]

pterodactyl bad bruh

[surreal steeple]

I have 0 coding experience outside of making user lookups in Neopets. How do I get up to speed in a half and a half.

[cinder kiln]

Effectively every managed hosting service within the Minecraft community uses pterodactyl or a fork of it as true as that may be

[woeful depot]

Try to understand java basics and then learn OOP

[grave saddle]

Hey guys, any official docs available yet?

[woeful depot]

Not yet

[near raptor]

Nope, the game has not yet released

[grave saddle]

thanks

[prisma agate]

It'd be pretty similar to Minecraft modding, learn java and then spigot plugins, I think "Kody Simpson" on YouTube has both a java and a spigot series u can watch

Although spigot is Minecraft specific, Hytale will most likely have a similar API with event listeners, runnables, etc

I wouldn't worry at all about OOP (and imo it's a bad way to program)

[woeful depot]

What do you suggest?

[prisma agate]

Wdtm

[woeful depot]

Like don't you follow any patterns when you are coding

[prisma agate]

Yes, my own patterns, not some random arbitrary patterns that don't even work

[fleet isle]

I imagine it's going to be a lot of figuring out

[woeful depot]

Alright

[leaden zephyr]

Java is OOP. It's not optional. 👀
But Kyren is right, find whatever works for you, whether that's YouTube or a book, and start learning the basics.

Learning Minecraft plugin programming will almost certainly benefit you for Hytale.

[near raptor]

I fail to see how you cannot do OOP when you use an OOP language :p

Writing Java without using a class is quite difficult

[surreal steeple]

Thanks a ton!

[tidal mauve]

static abuse

🤭

[rocky spire]

Yandere 2.0

[prisma agate]

I guess OOP has very overloaded terminology, so let me clarify

OOP for me is

1. Inheritance/interfaces
2. "Design patterns"
3. Polymorphism over switch statements and enums
4. Over abstracting to hide details

[leaden zephyr]

[near raptor]

10 levels of inheritance is indeed a nightmare, but composition (through interfaces) is not so bad. Design patterns are quite useful to structure your code, but you don't have to use all of them all the time, sure.

[rocky spire]

Things that make coding more scaleable and efficient = bad

[prisma agate]

I don't have to do all these things in java, java encourages OOP, but u can write code without these

[tidal mauve]

you have misconception of what is oop

like i totally agree that factory builder factory is a joke in a context of minecraft plugins

[prisma agate]

From my experience it makes them less scalable and less efficient, especially if we r talking efficient in terms of performance, virtual functions r slow(er)

[near raptor]

Builder pattern is ❤️

Or well, a syntax using .withX(...)

[prisma agate]

I think that's the common definition I have seen others use, if u just mean a function that has a specific class as the first argument and u can do foo.bar() then that's fine

[rocky spire]

How many times are you calling? I’ve experienced negligible impacts to performance. Then again I don’t normally do large projects in Java.

[leaden zephyr]

That's just overengineering. Java is still OOP no matter how you write it.

[prisma agate]

Look up "clean code horrible performance" if u want to see the performance aspects, but honestly ppl who use java are not really concerned about this level of perf

[compact crypt]

Programming with only OOP in java has made me a considerable brain rewiring

[tidal mauve]

we live in an age where people throw hardware at optimization problems anyway

[prisma agate]

What's overengineering? (As in what r u referring to)

[prisma agate]

I'd say even 1 level is bad enough to personally never use inheritance

Also composition is just adding a field, it's not related to interfaces

Some design patterns are reasonable sometimes, but thinking in terms of them is usually bad (instead do stuff the straightforward way and let patterns emerge on their own)

[leaden zephyr]

The things you listed. Forcing design patterns, deep inheritance, and excessive abstraction is overengineering. But that's not what OOP is, that's just bad OOP. You can use objects simply without all that bloat.

Maybe i did not understand what you wanted to say. If so, i apologize. 😄

[near raptor]

I don't really agree with this take personally, it is a bit short-sighted. I have written plenty of Java in the past 10 years or so, if I didn't use any "OOP" or design patterns, I would argue that the maintainability of the software I wrote would be much worse. Design patterns were created for a reason, but you should use them where they make sense. And you don't have to create 10 levels of inheritance to structure your code "properly". I personally try to stay clear from inheritance, but sometimes it suits a use-case quite well.

[leaden zephyr]

^ Agreed

[prisma agate]

Yea I think we mostly agree, it's just that I am more extreme

I never use inheritance
I only rarely use interfaces
I don't create stupid stuff like singleton/factories etc
I don't base my architecture on design patterns (but some may emerge naturally)
I basically never private a field and I only wrap with getters and setters if there is a concrete need

[woeful depot]

My man, hytale server code will be design pattern massacre. I hope you can stand it.

[woeful depot]

Personally design patterns makes my job much easier but you don't have to follow them

[leaden zephyr]

That's fair, if it works for you and you can maintain it, go for it.

[prisma agate]

Source isn't available yet so not sure where u got it from

Also so does Minecraft, but it doesn't leak that much to the API itself, at least not in ways that are overly annoying, and I can still write my own code the way I want so I am fine with it

[arctic mist]

This, not every problem requires a design pattern as a solution, but some problems have really good fits for them

[woeful depot]

Yeah I'm just saying if you ever want to inspect it

[prisma agate]

Ye scrolling through factories and hierarchies and jumping to virtual functions ain't gonna be fun, but not much I can do

[leaden zephyr]

Thanks for the chat. Good night y'all.

[tardy stone]

Add LuckPerms

[eternal rune]

Port Luckperms, don't just 'add' it. LuckPerms is perfect as-is.

And if Hytale has a permission system, mod it away for LuckPerms...

I really want to see some alternate Fast-Travel like plugins.

Give me rail systems that let you 'time-skip' / teleport the players far ahead.
Give me Stargates.
Give me Nethers.
Give me Mounts.
Give me Flying.
Give me Flight Points from WoW.
Give me Valheim like portals.

Such an open design space.

[eternal rune]

Give "elegant objects" a read over. It really highlights some of the ways that OOP was misinterpreted.

I don't agree 100%, but funnily some of the Java 20-25 validation features work really well with it.

The various talks are a little bit crap, but once you understand the core message, and are willing to use more abstract objects and violate the SRP principal, you can end up with some really elegant code with it, even if tightly coupled.

[modest burrow]

Will we be able to run servers on the 13th?

[brittle estuary]

yeah

[finite charm]

Do we know if hytale plans on staying compatible with the latest releases of Java for the future or will it stay Java 25 and not update with Java updates? Cause minecraft is only on Java 17 i think

[modest burrow]

How do we know?

[finite charm]

Simon has said servers will be available but the source wont be for a few months

[near raptor]

Minecraft has moved with Java versions, I see no reason why Hytale wouldn't do the same.

Besides, Java is backwards compatible, so newer versions of Java can run older compiled jars

[modest burrow]

So we can’t make plugins nd stuff?

[brittle estuary]

In the "Hytale Is Saved" blogpost: "Modding: Available at launch. Run your own servers and create custom content."

[finite charm]

We can but we will just have to decompile the jars most likely

[brittle estuary]

They're very focused on letting people create plugins and servers from day 1

They've said they're relying on it to build the community and popularity of the game

[zenith mist]

I can attest that im gunna be using a near professional level team for hytale for my server development

Im going todo my best to make a awesome experience for everyone

[worthy cliff]

what kinda stuff you guys planning on working on?

[zenith mist]

Well I'd love to give the idea but I don't want people formulating ideas made by professional game designers xd

[fleet isle]

oh there's gonna be a lots of competition

[zenith mist]

But im including technoblade into the lore itself

Thats the only hint im giving ya

I predict my server will have around 5k users ish

The highet end around 25 k

[worthy cliff]

confident huh

[zenith mist]

Yeah

[worthy cliff]

fair enough

[fleet isle]

it will be interesting as to how many players will one server instance be able to handle

[zenith mist]

A server would need to be beefy if its early

The games not optimized so the server costs ain't gunna be cheap

[fleet isle]

but I kinda doubt this very first early access version will be able to handle 5k players... I think 1k is already too many

[zenith mist]

Yeah

The stuff I have to build is also massive

I have terra form the entire continent

Pain

[prisma olive]

Who knows maybe the server is optimized to use multi-core cpu

[fleet isle]

the client seems to be somewhat optimised based on the videos, so it's not out of the question that the server could also be

[prisma agate]

Btw I also recommend "OOP the 35 year mistake" talk, really interesting to see the historical way OOP emerged

Also I'd love to talk about my thoughts on EO, should we take it to DMs? Idk if this channel is only Hytale tech or if it's fine to talk here about programming in general

I mean there were talks here about stuff like databases so it might be fine if u prefer to continue here

[eternal rune]

can't dm you due to your discord messaging settings

[prisma agate]

R u sure? It might be y bcz DMs r open, let me check

[devout cipher]

this doesn't sound like a good idea

[lofty shuttle]

Hey i got a quick question i got a seperate pc im going to run my hytale server on (its gonna be on linux os) does this matter or should i do it in windows im not too into making my own server so trying to figure it out before the game is out

[arctic mist]

As long as your linux machine can run Java, and have the required ports open for the network part, you shouldn't worry about it

[lofty shuttle]

ah bet thanks goat

yea ive seen tutorial's of people using AMP hosting thing and i wonder if thats worth but i think the hytale server thing has to be added to it

or the game not sure how it works tbh lol\

[frail cradle]

Are there gonna be ways to transfer people between instances like on Minecraft?
Perhaps like /transfer or Velocity?

[arctic mist]

I believe they will be using transfer packets, dont know much about the deeper details but not the same as in minecraft

[fleet isle]

Since this is going to be the very first version and the whole side of minigames has been put on hold for some time, I don't think there will be for the first few years

[arctic mist]

Not really "necesary". You can rent a VPS outside a "gaming host" provider and configure it yourself to run any game server that is available following their deployment steps

[lofty shuttle]

AMP is a one time payment i believe and i can just run it off my other machine which is what im trying to do

[frail cradle]

I'm pretty sure there's gonna be companies hosting servers for Hytale. (Not sure about AMP specifically tho)

[lofty shuttle]

yea im sure there is but id rather not pay monthly since i have a extra machine for it just gotta set it up

[arctic mist]

I mean, if it helps you setting the server go for it, but not really necessary for hosting it

[frail cradle]

There are steps to request new games for AMP, I just looked it up its on their page

[lofty shuttle]

oh nice i would assume that we would have to wait for release to get it added tho

[zenith mist]

Its as tribute lol

To respect the guy

[frail cradle]

Yeah I think ur right. You'll need to create a "Issue" on their GitHub repository. But they can't add something if its not there yet.

[prisma agate]

Why would u need many implementations for a database? All u really need is a way to execute SQL queries

I don't unit test much, only rarely for hard stuff that took a few iterations to nail, but I do stuff like golden testing for other things

And I do very rarely use interfaces, only when writing a library where I want to allow the user to provide me with functions I can call, otherwise in most cases I just use an enum and a switch statement

[sacred tulip]

You don't need unit tests for everything

[sterile dove]

Correct

[sacred tulip]

So don't write unit tests for your interface database or vehicles and the problem is solved

[prisma agate]

U r never going to need multiple DBs at the same time, so u can just wrap it behind ur own db, and then u can switch DB.connect() to Maria.connect() or SQLite.connect() etc

Drivable is kinda a bad example and very contrived but even if u go with it, u can just have a Vehicle class, with an enum indicating which vehicle it is, then just a single drive() where u do a switch on the enum, ignoring the perf benefits of avoiding a potential branch miss due to the virtual call, I prefer grouping by action (driving) than by data (class)

[formal wind]

you select the best one for you -> when it doesn't work for you anymore you swap -> dont sit and add multiple database support for 50 different stuff

[prisma agate]

And good night! I'd respond tomorrow

[vernal niche]

As someone who is just picking Java back up after 10 years this is all so fantastic to watch lol

[sterile dove]

So if i make economy plugin, am i gonna force everyone to use sqlite since singleplayer players probably dont know what mysql is, or many server owners. Are planning on coding java without inheritance, interfaces and other stuff u said? The vehicle thing might have been bad example i guess

Whos gonna explain 12 year old kid that he needs mysql so his plugin he downloaded will work

[sterile dove]

^

[sterile dove]

Also the switch case would get huge, but i guess thats just preference, might be fine

[outer charm]

✋🏻

[flint aspen]

Im confused on what your question is

[sterile dove]

Which part, alex was just wondering why i dont force 12 year old players to use mysql for their mods, i would rather give them option to use it if they want and default to sqlite or something so they would have plug and play mod

[outer charm]

why can't i download

[formal wind]

I don't wonder, i'm wonderful

[sterile dove]

Since server owners might prefer something other than sqlite, mayby mariadb with redis or something for their network

[flint aspen]

If its a mod then Id imagine SQLite is just the standard, and for a plugin thats inteded for a server itd need to be a MySQL or MariaDB database depending on your preference as a developer, however some plugins allow for both

[sterile dove]

Yes thats the point, give them the options for different use cases

[flint aspen]

It just depends on what your goal is ig

[sterile dove]

Ofc

[formal burrow]

im gonna be honest: im glad that Hytale is going to release next year because I'm going to see family next month and I don't wanna be focused on work

if hytale becomes as big as it sounds like it it's going to be hard for me to take breaks

[sterile dove]

Oh nice:)

[formal burrow]

a lot of people are, keep in mind if the game came out christmas week, the plugins don't even exist yet, people should have the time to spend time with their loved ones before what's about to happen, happens

[sterile dove]

Gn!

[rough dove]

yeah fairly standard to hide the database (and your choice of library) behind some interface to not couple your business logic to it; and don't confuse this with OOP

[lost fable]

How you guys plan to implement Partys? Websockets?

[west elk]

what kind of parties are you talking about? what do they have to do with websockets?

[lost fable]

Minigame Network Parties. Cross Server stuff

[west elk]

websockets can make sense for cross-server communitcation. But I would probably do the sync via database events

[lost fable]

Yea I guess that would Work aswell, but when I think about stuff Like Party Chat I think websockets might be the better solution?

[west elk]

You can also go for Kafka or RabbitMQ ^^

[red venture]

Seems super overkill

[tame nexus]

"U r never going to need multiple DBs at the same time" I've seen many times companies use 2-3 DBs if that be for splitting up clients or more smart such as using Clickhouse+MySQL+MongoDB as each has pros and cons depending on the type of data. Easy example would be I've got a HytaleMetrics project and that uses MySQL but also SingleStore.

Why store Stats for example in Mongo, that should be ClickHouse but you want logs in say MySQL and more dynamic storage in Mongo. While I doubt Minecraft servers for example go to that extreme [some do] I would never say never.

[red venture]

The only DB you’ll ever need is Postgres

Document store, queues, relational, it does it all

[bitter nacelle]

We're looking into Kafka but def overkill for 98% of servers. I'm looking to use it personally for my Jarvis-like project so all my devices can share and pass instructions around.

[glass crag]

are we getting a server jar on release?

[bitter nacelle]

should be available in the launcher, forget where I saw that.

[sacred tulip]

Good point. And also most projects I've seen start with db abstractions eventually use some specific feature of the database or have queries that don't translate well.

[west elk]

yes

[warped niche]

sqlite :D

[red venture]

Sqlite is amazing. Cloudflare built their edge DB on it

[scarlet atlas]

I agree! I’m planning to use ClickHouse + MySQL soon for a venture. Though in the past I just used SingleStore.

It is normal in companies to operate 2 databases, one for OLTP and another OLAP purposes.

[warped niche]

intwestin

i like it mainly cuz u can deploy on a different host machine a lot easier, which has been good for plugin dev in minecraft

[ocean hedge]

I like sqlite as well it seems to be the most portable

I've preferred it over MySQL or mariadb in the work I've done

[tidal mauve]

i usually use sqlite and redis

[torpid iris]

Hi! Is there any information about the server release? I mean we can download/run dedicated servers on day 1?

[pulsar anchor]

Idk who but someone made a vid on day 1 servers

[west elk]

yes

[torpid iris]

Thx, I found the answer in the Q&A channel

[fast bear]

TUNG TUNG TUNG SAHUR

[prisma agate]

Yea exactly, just use SQLite
But if u really need to use psql or MySQL or whatever, worst case u just change the implementation

U can do "interfaces" without interfaces, u can have a EconomyData class which has .connect .close .execute SQL or whatever, then it calls an actual db API, if u switch a DB u just touch that class, if u want runtime choice for some reason, then just add a switch (or an interface) later, when u do need the scale that SQLite doesn't work at

Also about switch getting huge, writing the same signature in each class is probably more typing, but in any case, typing isn't a huge issue and java is already very verbose

[sterile dove]

But if i release plugin for people do i tell them just to edit the source code if they want to have other db than sqlite?

why wouldnt i give them the option to choose

We are talking about Java, and denying interfaces and inheritance ect is very weird

[prisma olive]

I would not use SQlite for production server... It Is not capable to handle concurrent query as well as other RDBMS due to its very simple locking mechanism

[prisma agate]

My point was there is no point in switching, after u choose MySQL, unless u run into scaling issues, u r gonna stick with it

But also u r probably not going to hit the scale where storing one thing in a standard SQL db is going to be problematic where u need a dedicated specialized db, like u r probably not collecting as many analytics as Tesla or anthropic do, and personally I'd rather not take on that complexity, but u do u

[stark sphinx]

@sterile dove :-DD

[prisma agate]

Bcz that's added complexity, for both the dev and the user, the user probably doesn't even know what a db is, let alone their difference, and SQLite would scale enough for most stuff, don't plan for "what if", if someone asks u to add psql bcz SQLite is too slow for them, then send them a version with psql or add it as an option

[turbid carbon]

Servers will be available since 1st day of release? I mean, there will be a guide on how doing one, adding plugins, etc?

[prisma agate]

Server jar yes, but no source/guide

Source will "come in a few months due to legal reasons"

[turbid carbon]

oh okay tyy

[sterile dove]

yes but lets say i make bank plugin and i want it so normal players can use it, but i also want multi server support, do i code the same plugin 2x? have 2 jars only so the other jar can have mariadb and other sqlite

That makes no sense, nobody does that and shouldn't thats what config's are ment for you can choose which to use sqlite or mariadb

[prisma agate]

Coding 2x and having 2 jars is not the same, and sure u can make it a config, but again, only if there is actual need

U can also use SQLite as a multi server DB

[sterile dove]

ofc there is actual need

[prisma olive]

How? You cant access from Two different machines its Just an isolated process running on a single file

[sterile dove]

ur saying basicly that luckperms should only have 1 database implementation? and have 10x jars for all other types they support

It would be just bad design

[prisma agate]

U just need some glue code that takes network requests on some port, execute the SQL and returns the results

Unless u need a distributed db which is something else entirely

[sterile dove]

and u think 12 year old avg player can do that?

[stark sphinx]

psql and if someone complains you call 'skill issue' and block them

[prisma agate]

No? But u think they can setup a psql db? Also no, it's something the dev takes care of

[sterile dove]

The thing is, some people make plugins for the community and not just for themselves

[prisma agate]

I don't see how that's different

[prisma olive]

Yeah I dont think that would work... What about transactions? You gonna code them also? That would take lot of time Just use a RDBMS at this point..

[sterile dove]

no they cant setup it thats why u give them option to choose

Also using sqlite as remove database makes no sense, just choose some actual remote db which was made for it

[stark sphinx]

It's a "learning experience" and "growth opportunity" in linkedin terms for the kids to learn databases

[prisma agate]

I am sure there is probably an existing network thing for SQLite?
Also an alternative is u transmit the thing u wanna do instead of SQL, like storeBankInfo or whatever, and then internally it starts a transaction

[prisma olive]

Setting up pgsql Is also super Easy why should a server owner worry about it?

[sterile dove]

I guess luckperms is just bad design since they allow sqlite and remote databases

I think its good, but u can disagree

[prisma agate]

No, my point was never this, it was don't do it unless someone actually requests it

[dark cape]

how about.. do as you like and think makes sense and learn from mistakes

[sterile dove]

The thing is if you make plugin like luckperms and you use ur sqlite remote database system for some reason, people are gonna ask why? and how to setup it, if u have only reqular sqlite(wont work cross-servers) people are gonna ask for remote db support, if u have only remote db they are gonna ask for sqlite because they dont know how to setup remote db. Some things are obvious

[prisma olive]

Yeah, eventually you will change if the requirements changes, really depend on your target server population.

20 players server are really different from 1k player server and they need different solutions

[sterile dove]

Ye developing plugins for thousands of people is way different than to ur friend group

thats why config's exists

[formal wind]

Yeah except the reason why they have it is because they have multiple inhouse applications (each with their own application server) which requires a database and then they setup another database instead of mixing databases :)

[formal wind]

You don't want to treat a 20 player server different from a 1k player server by a lot because you want to make it scalable at the end of the day

you never know when a surge of users/players join the server and suddenly it crashes or it can't receive connections or everything lags

[stark sphinx]

if your server planned and built for 20 people suddenly jumps to a thousand, the db setup of a plugin is the least of your problems

[formal wind]

Is it?

I could def crash the whole server lol

[sterile dove]

But u couldn't, it all depends how its made

I can make a server for 1 player and u cant crash it only because it uses sqlite

[formal wind]

You literally said I can't and then say it depends on how it's made 😭

You guys have never flooded anything and it shows

Anyone here that don't think it's possible has never had a job within IT infrastructure and it shows 🤣

[sterile dove]

sure, i load player settings from sqlite to map, how do u crash it

[formal wind]

You realise loading requires a connection?

Do you know what flooding is?

[sterile dove]

that wasnt the point

[formal wind]

Yeah makes sense

[sterile dove]

if i design a server for 1 player and it uses sqlite u say u can crash it because of it

[formal wind]

Do your infra then let me join your server lets see how long you wanna handle the plugin the way you're doing it

[fleet isle]

anything is possible in IT... there are a lots of systems that shouldn't be working today but they still are... so yeah, the IT world is full of surprises

[sterile dove]

so I have sqlite for player settings, when server starts it loads the settings into the memory, why is that so easy to crash? because its sqlite?

[formal wind]

surely you dont only fetch from it but store in it

well in this case it also depends what player settings you're loading, if it's only a currency change for example it's not gonna work

[sterile dove]

yes

[formal wind]

the more information it holds and the more changes it requires in the database the easier it is

[sterile dove]

so what u mean to say if something is designed for small player amount doesnt mean u can definitely crash it, and that was the whole point of this

[formal wind]

Ok let’s be real here. You’re def not making a plugin for “small player amount” you’re making a plugin because you want a feature in your server

If your first thought process is to design a plugin for small “amount of players” you’re doing something wrong

[formal wind]

Also if it’s designed to only handle 10k concurrent actions because you assumed it would only handle 20 players, then yes :)

Hey let’s take RuneScape as an example because you like it, do you think they have multiple of databases for their needs? They have 200k players on osrs rn

[sterile dove]

I think ur missing the whole point

[formal wind]

Do you think they have more than 3?

[sterile dove]

so instead of sqlite i should always have something like redis and mariadb?

[formal wind]

No the database won’t matter, it’s how you handle it

That’s was gonna be my point

[sterile dove]

but having millions of users with sqlite, i wouldn't recommend it

[formal wind]

I mean I store a large database in SQLite rn

Just user accounts: 3m rn

I do recommend honestly it looks pretty as well

[sterile dove]

So i guess u missed the whole point, u said u can crash any server which isnt designed for big corporations basicly

idk why argue about something when its pretty obivious that u don't need to design every system to handle millions of users

[formal wind]

It doesn’t matter because it’s how you handle it, I’ve crashed my own companies application server because of how the fetching of data worked between servers (just an example) which I had to solve

[sterile dove]

it does matter

[formal wind]

Ok so your plugin is gonna fetch the data and store every action sent (changes) and when I send 3m packets in seconds you gonna handle it perfectly fine right?

[sterile dove]

I dont think that big companys use cloud for 0 reason, they want speed, high availability, scaling, u think they would be fine with 1x mariadb and 1 server ?

[formal wind]

You realise the reason they use cloud is so their cost is minimised because it wouldn’t be cheaper and they rather pay someone else so they don’t have to take the blame if something happens? Or because they aren’t expert in that field but the company is supposed to be

[sterile dove]

its designed to be used by millions

🤦‍♂️

Ok im done arguing this doesnt make sense:D Im just getting ragebaited

[formal wind]

It’s like talkin to a wall that doesn’t understand what plugin design really is about

Go design your plugin for 20 users, every plugin you have gonna have a database 🔥

[tame nexus]

Thats quite legacy, a lot now have the same web servers (lb) queue servers etc just separate databases. The database side is for security but also scaling. I can host by default say 100 clients on db1 then a massive client alone on db2 and keep adding that way, you can indeed also partition, shard etc etc - You are 100% valid tho I’ve seen a lot of “each client is separate in all ways” approach 🙂

[formal wind]

Yeah it’s legacy asf but it’s used to this day in a lot of big companies because of how easy it is (though now they also prefer API)

As you said it’s for scaling

[tame nexus]

To put myself to shame, I actually did this once.. 😂 Many many years ago I think it was a minecraft plugin and I was maybe 17 at the time (29 now) I didn’t want to deal with mysql etc so i slapped in a way to handle it all with Google Spreadsheet and it worked but holy hell it was slow! (also bad rate limits haha)

[tame nexus]

Agree, we forgot to mention a lot do it for each company because they are in branch hell when a client wants a specific feature haha.

I think it was when i used Skript and it had an addon for sheets 😂 Not my finest moment as a young lad haha

[sterile dove]

Now u get it:)

[prisma agate]

Blame makes sense, also lack of expertise, bcz the cloud is really not performant and buying hardware is way cheaper than the cloud (see DHH for example)

It's mostly convenience/not knowing there is a better alternative

[tame nexus]

Cloud turned out to be bad expensive for a lot of companies that followed the hype train sadly!

[formal wind]

I only work for big companies but there is never a full cloud solution, it’s in-house and cloud

Well not going full cloud is the smart decision

CSS only

[prisma agate]

Not doing anything in the cloud is the best/cheapest

[sterile dove]

can do ui's with xaml possibly

[prisma agate]

Renting will always be more expensive than owning

[scarlet spoke]

Shouldn't cloud basically provide fast access worldwide and prevent traffic to the original server but if it fails fallback to the original server?
I mean that's the whole idea behind it, isn't it? 😄

[fleet isle]

DHH mentioned! sorry, I saw that I couldn't handle it

[formal wind]

I got 15 servers in my apartment, that’s my cloud 🔥

[tame nexus]

I cant remember if it was you i replied to at like 4am about this and maybe started this mysql debate.. Sorry if it was!

To be clear however everyone should take this sort of discussion as a learning debate. I grew up as a developer feeling like i needed to always be right and know all, instead you need to be open someone always knows more and is better so utilise those skills and learn because some day you’ll be better than them. Mucho love!

[tidal mauve]

relatable

chineeze minipcs go brrr

[prisma agate]

I rent a VPS just bcz my internet is terrible, I have 16 cores and 64gb ram, can easily dedicate 4 cores and 8gb to match my vps, but 5mbps upload ain't cutting it

[scarlet spoke]

It's always comparing rely on a company vs rely on employees.

If you got bad luck and all of your engineers are ill or whatever, good luck with your infrastructur 😄

[tidal mauve]

i pay 9$/month for gigabit (both way gigabit btw)

[tame nexus]

Ask amazon, cloudflare and microsoft about reliability recently 😂 Cloud is great for a lot of reasons but something is only worth the cost you pay for it. In most cases a dedicated or vps from somewhere is perfectly fine than using amazon.

[fleet isle]

But then you might be have a different bad luck and the entire data center catches on fire and burns down... bye bye your data

[prisma agate]

The best I can get I think is 1gbit download and 0.2gbit upload, still like 40x my current one, once I upgrade to fiber optics

[scarlet spoke]

Yeah, I'll host my own service on my machine, but content stuff will be forced to be on CDN for sure

[scarlet spoke]

That's not how cloud services work x)

[tidal mauve]

upload limits are artificial

[prisma agate]

Huh wdym

[formal wind]

Dude I wish, I’m moving to them right now slowly. All of my servers are rack😭

[formal wind]

Yeh I got a 10Gbps link

[tidal mauve]

i cant send images here to show my rack

but i only got one 4u supermicro chassis there for my NAS

take a wild guess

[sacred tulip]

Customers are fine when your server goes down because your cloud provider is having problems since then half the Internet is also going to have a problem. But when your self hosted server is down and nothing else is, then it's an issue.

[formal wind]

As a customer I'm not fine when my stuff goes down because of amazon is down and I lose money

That's why I don't use them, my uptime is 100% since I began using my own servers

Well in my case I also have 2 links so if an ISP goes down I have another one

[sacred tulip]

Then any service you use to make money shouldn't rely on Amazon which isn't the case for most companies

[lost shadow]

Has any more information been revealed about the transfer packet?

That it exists

[scarlet spoke]

If you use your own network, it's not important, cause u basically can get all players data from the nametag.

Probably good if you want to handle hub servers and tell the other server how the player looks like on the hub server

[viscid wren]

I wish we had the server API so I could make some plugins already 😭

[formal wind]

Probably isn't accessible because of all the changes they are making which would make the current version useless

[lusty topaz]

When API coming out? Or any viewable server structure for that matter

[formal wind]

No one knows, just gonna assume around early access release

[fringe ore]

Real

[lavish creek]

Do you know what language the plugins will be programmed? This is my first time in modding, but I have a lot of experience in software development.

[spiral nebula]

Java

They will be .jars. if you're familiar with Minecraft, you'll understand them easier

[lavish creek]

Java is good for me, do you think starting to do minecraft moding will help to have more experience for the day Hytale comes out?

[spiral nebula]

Definitely

[final forge]

I doubt it, I guesse just learn java or persue your java knowledge as hytale will have a different lib.

[lavish creek]

Another idea that came up with, is it possible or common for the Java code to request other microservices in other languages like Node.js?

[dark cape]

I suggest a server plugin instead of modding. modding on minecraft is kind of convoluted in my experience

[dark cape]

I think you can, but I don't know how any of that stuff works personally

[red venture]

No reason it shouldn’t be possible. Communication would just happen over web sockets, http, or whatever other protocol you want to communicate with the microservices

[lavish creek]

Thank you very much, it helps me experience. When they announced Hytale, I was starting college and I could not program. Nowadays I am a programmer, and I developed a very popular and large SaaS in Argentina, but my experience in modding and video games is nil hahaha, I wish I could collaborate in the community, as I dreamed of as a teenager. Thank you all!

[lavish creek]

It will be necessary to try and see if it is viable.

[red venture]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be. I’m planning on writing a plugin to communicate with my own website. Written in Nodejs

[wide shadow]

100%. I'm currently prototyping my mod as a Minecraft paper spigot plugin to test all features. But make sure that your mod feature code is strictly decoupled from Minecrafts code so you can basically port over without huge modifications. I'm writing a npc dialogue framework that ill port over to hytale once EA launches

[stray pasture]

Does anyone know if Hytale is going to make a C# bridge for plugins? (I mean we could do that likely) - I just wanted to know if C# would be an officially supported language. 😄 (Best of both words)

[wide shadow]

Doesn't look like it currently. All modifications will be through java server side and or visual scripting as of now

[spice sluice]

I don't think it makes sense to create bindings for other languages except perhaps for performance reasons.

[stray pasture]

My reason is I highly dislike Java and find .net just to be a purly better, faster, and modern framework.- There is no real reason rather than preference.

[spice sluice]

You can still use other JVM languages

[prisma agate]

Java and C# r basically the same lol

[stray pasture]

This is true, but its not Java that is the issue, its the JVM system as a whole. - I find it archaic and lacking. I have built up a substantial amount of libraries due to my work as a game developer. And feel a binding would be a very useful way to utilize my past built systems rather than porting them. 😄 - But as Kyren states, they are essentially the same language, totally different paltforms that power them.

[spice sluice]

I think bindings would kill any potential performance gain you could possibly get by C# anyway.

[prisma agate]

What's wrong with the JVM? it's actually a really well made system

[spice sluice]

But idk if C# is considered more performant as a whole. What JVM lacks are primitive structures. Maybe someday we will be able to use valhalla

[prisma agate]

C# VM is probably less optimized, but in any case he probably wants it for the existing stuff he wrote there

[stray pasture]

Correct, nothing is wrong with the JVM, I just don't prefer to write in JVM based languages as I have years of investment in the .Net platform - Due to them being very similar bindings would not be that difficult. But the VMs work differently. So you can't directly compare the two without considering the ways it can be optimized, such as C# unsafe and pointers and AOT - (Which negates the entire .Net platform any how but is able to get very close to C++)

So correct, it is all pure preference and not a pure technical reason. They can accomplish the same.

[prisma agate]

Java can also do AOT, any jit VM can

Also I am with you, I would rather write cpp (or C)

[scarlet atlas]

Or why not PHP am i right

[spice sluice]

At least single reason for C++?

[prisma agate]

?

[spice sluice]

Why would you prefer C++

[primal shoal]

You can always write your own c# server since all the code is open

the only thing it has to do is conform with the client protocol

[stray pasture]

Yeah, that my plan. I just didn't want to if they already had plans.

[primal shoal]

I see

[prisma agate]

I prefer writing C but if it's for games (which Hytale is) operator overloading from cpp is really helpful for math

[autumn raven]

I just hope they add C++ and Java compatible plugins

[prisma agate]

But basically every other cpp feature is just garbage

[spice sluice]

Many languages have operator overloading or similar mechanics

[primal shoal]

kyren I swear I've seen you in the zig server, I'm going to be writing a zig server implementation

[prisma agate]

U can use JNI to call foreign functions

[spice sluice]

Kotlin for instance

[prisma agate]

I talked there a few times yes, once even with Bill and Lerno

[stray pasture]

I can also run Java bytcode with C# as well, unsure which would be best, to be fair just writing a C# server is likely the easier way. 😄 - Just more to do.

[prisma agate]

Yes but kotlin isn't great, doesn't have the control of C

[spice sluice]

Rust

[prisma agate]

Rust is complete garbage and is the opposite of what I want

[spice sluice]

Not sure what do you mean by "control of C"

[stray pasture]

But rust has cool names! 😄

[primal shoal]

I think you can probably native aot your C# code and use jni for the interface as well

[spice sluice]

Then I probably don't understand what are you trying to achieve

[prisma agate]

Custom allocators, access to pointers, struct layouts, stack structs etc

[spice sluice]

Then answer would still be rust

[stray pasture]

Well, I disagree. Rust and C++ have their places. - Rust has type safety, C++ has a massive list of battle tested lbraries. Operationally very similar.

[prisma agate]

Rust sucks with custom allocators, doesn't let u raw access to pointers (without unsafe), doesn't let u control struct layouts and is overall trash

[spice sluice]

In terms of something like hytale and most real applications I can't imagine why would you need or maybe want to do this

[prisma agate]

"modern" cpp sucks almost the same as rust, bcz rust is basically based on "modern" cpp

[primal shoal]

Rust has its place, and I'm saying this as someone who uses zig daily

[spice sluice]

As I understand if you simply enjoy punishing yourself it's ok 😄

[prisma agate]

It's place is spreading propaganda

[stray pasture]

Hey, I have met only one other person who uses Zig 😄

[primal shoal]

I try and separate the language from the community. Those things you mentioned aren't super important if you aren't doing anything at a super close to the machine

like writing a plain old webserver

[prisma agate]

Now u know 3 (well I used to use zig)

[modest burrow]

Haha the one thing you point out is operator overloading. Have u used c++ :3

Did you forget about templates, constexpr, consteval, coroutines, lambdas.

[prisma agate]

U r running the code u write on a machine, it's important to be aware of it and how it works

Also the language itself is just pointless imo, it's very much not "blazingly fast" and not really a low level lang, so if u want low level control, there are better langs, if u want FP stuff use ocaml or elixir, so it really doesn't have a place

The main reason it's so widely adopted is mostly due to the propaganda for stuff like safety

[primal shoal]

Yeah I'd still choose to use gleam or elixir for anything that needs to be scalable

[prisma agate]

All of these are bad, with the exception of lambdas if they had better syntax and were literally just an anonymous function and exception of very simple templates as a way to do static dispatch generics

[modest burrow]

Ah yea you can’t trust this guy btw

[near raptor]

With all due respect, do you even like writing code? You seem to dislike almost every language and every programming language aspect? :p

[modest burrow]

Classic example of c++ is too hard for him

[wide shadow]

I mean I can understand why they stick with Java tbh. Java has a huge extensive base with a large community and I can imagine that most Minecraft modders that are coming to hytale will love to stick to their language they already know. That will give modding a huge boost especially in the early days. And the best of all is that the java code only runs server side so the c# client can run as optimally as possible not like in Minecraft. I love it tbh

[prisma agate]

I am unsatisfied with the current space of languages, and I am in the process of creating my own, clearly I am not the only one (see zig, Odin, Jai, C3)

The fact I am unsatisfied doesn't mean I don't use languages, currently I use C for my compiler, and go for simple scripts

[modest burrow]

Yea so you like the butt simple languages that hardly have anything powerful

When it comes to compiler logic

[prisma agate]

"an idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity"

[modest burrow]

Good one

[spice sluice]

I personally would expect from language that it either compiles or gives me error and not that it puts undefined behavior everywhere

[prisma agate]

Also look at Jai's metaprogramming, it's fairly sophisticated

[wide shadow]

That's like the most madeup and dumb quote I've ever heard lmao😭

[modest burrow]

As soon as you said constexpr and consteval and templates suck. I just know you can’t be trusted and you speak out of ur cheeks

[prisma agate]

I need to go to eat, but when I finish I can criticize C as well, it has plenty of flaws

[prisma agate]

Didn't even ask for reasoning lol

[spice sluice]

It's same with C++. You can write code that compiles differently and has different output just by applying different compiler optimization

[primal shoal]

Does the compiler catch this

T *thing = (T*) malloc(sizeof(T));

Because it's ub

I think C++ would be a lot better if -Werror and -pedantic were default

Also -Wall -Wextra

[spice sluice]

To sum it up I would say that C++ might be good for some smaller low level tasks where you need direct memory management. For all other applicstions you would prefer some more reliable language.

[primal shoal]

Because there's people that don't compile with those and I have to use their code (my colleagues) and I have to spend ages fixing it up

[deft shore]

why is this ub

[primal shoal]

The constructor hasn't run so it's in an undefined state

But you can still use it as if it was a normal pointer to T

I think that turning on all warnings and pedantic should catch it but I'm not sure

[deft shore]

ah, i get that but 99% of the time malloc is used in c++ its from c ports with pod structs, got confused lol

[primal shoal]

yeah it would be legal if T was a pod but we can't tell

[spice sluice]

There are many undefined behaviors you cant take track of. Such as dereferencing null pointer

[primal shoal]

I think that's why the C memory functions are banned in some C++ code based since they sidestep the language, so you have to use new or in place new

[spice sluice]

And other pointer operations

[primal shoal]

I just wish the C++ standards committee was better, why did it take so long to allow for std::optional<T&>, because it would alleviate a lot of pointer passing

[modest burrow]

You have concepts, restraints, and raii

C++ can be written safely

[spice sluice]

That's the thing. C++ can be written safely (with very good knowledge). Rust is written safely by design

[primal shoal]

Yeah it's easy to write safe C++ now which is nice

[spice sluice]

I wouldnt say that writing larger app without undefined behavior is easy

[primal shoal]

Oh right gotta use sanitizers too along with all the flags

[spice sluice]

Another example could be integer overflow that almost noone checks and results in ub

[prisma agate]

Terry Davis said that, the guy who created templeOS and HolyC

[wide shadow]

I know terry davis. But that doesn't make the quote any better, if not, even more stupid😭

[prisma agate]

U said it was madeup

[wide shadow]

It sounds made up because its dumb 😭

[prisma agate]

Why is that UB?

[primal shoal]

constructor doesn't run and according to the big C++ abstract virtual machine that means it's UB since it's in an undefined state

[prisma agate]

That's why I use C, cpp has so many stupid stuff, but I guess it'd work even if I compile as cpp, as long as I don't use constructors

But for a game operator overloading is really nice for vector math

[primal shoal]

yeah as long as its a pod it's okay (I think?)

[prisma agate]

Ye which is basically all my structs

[primal shoal]

Sorry not abstract virtual machine, just abstract machine, which is partially outlined in the cppcon 2019 doc

[vale fog]

Hello everyone, I would like to know what resources are currently available to developers who are interested in creating plugins, mods, and servers.

Do we have access to a beta version to start development, or do we have to wait until 13 January?

Apart from the fact that it will be in Java, do we know anything else about the underlying technology line entities or how the game works?

Is there a guide or resource you can share with me?

Any information would be appreciated. I would like to be able to create a server with my own plugins and mods. Im creating a team for that 🙂

[near raptor]

The game has not yet released. As such, we will most likely have to wait until January 13 to get started. No guides yet, no docs.

[granite parrot]

But hytale isent built on Java no?

[near raptor]

The server is, the client is C#

[granite parrot]

Yea I figured ty

[vale fog]

Precisely, from what I read in the forum, it is
client in C#
server in Java

[sterile salmon]

so if i want to make mods i will need to code in c#?

[river stratus]

Nope, just Java

Mods are all server side

[sterile salmon]

hmmmmmm so it will be 100% server side?

[spice sluice]

Yes

[robust lance]

100%

[magic nebula]

C is flawless 😎

[magic nebula]

FFM is way more cool and fancy and way nicer to use as well

[fringe ore]

So what plugins planning on making when it comes out?

[magic nebula]

I'm writing my own backend

[prisma agate]

Oh nice, didn't know about it

[fringe ore]

Explain

[magic nebula]

Yea you don't have to write any glue code anymore you can just bind directly to a dll or so

[prisma agate]

I never used either, but heard from a friend that JNI is annoying, so good thing there is a better way

[prisma agate]

What about calling java functions from C so I can interact with Hytale?

[magic nebula]

Upcalls work yes

[prisma agate]

Although I'd probably not bother and just write java, at least for a while

[magic nebula]

It kind of depends on what you are doing to be able to get good performance but it is something you can do

[prisma agate]

At the very least it's an indirect call, so it should be fine, java anyways has lots of virtual calls which r worse due to branch misses

[magic nebula]

Well, the tricky part is making sure you're not interacting with the java heap on the native side so the gc can still run

[noble night]

guys, who can help or explain me how to using and creating plugins on a server if it real

[opaque frigate]

Vsem salam

[amber cape]

What do you exactly mean ?

[noble night]

I want to ask how and where I can create or install plugins on a Server

[amber cape]

No resources yet on Hytale API.

[noble night]

What is a Hytale API?

[rose atlas]

how do u plan that on a game that isn't released?

[wide shadow]

Honestly just start making your mod in Minecraft now if u don't want to wait

And then port your code to hytale

[noble night]

oh thanks but I don’t know how

[wide shadow]

Since Minecraft and hytale both use Java, you can basically copy paste your code, that's not bound to Minecraft itself, from your Minecraft plugin to hytale.

[noble night]

I know that they using they old engine in c++

[wide shadow]

No the old engine is in c# and mods are in java. The new engine was c++

[noble night]

So that means c++ can’t do anything with game that been realised soon, yes?

[wide shadow]

Yes, c++ won't be available in hytale that will release

C# for client and Java for Server sided mods

[noble night]

Ok thanks

[woeful depot]

And what's your source on C# mods?

[wide shadow]

There will be no Client mods

oh now I get it, my bad, ive written it in a way where you could think that there are client mods xd. My bad. Only Java Server Side mods will be available + visual scripting

[woeful depot]

All good I was just thinking if I was wrong

[rose atlas]

website states it

[woeful depot]

Where exactly

[wide shadow]

huh? No?

[near raptor]

One community, one client: We want to avoid a fragmented ecosystem where every server requires a different modded client. For that reason, we don't intend to support any client mods. The client should remain stable, secure, and consistent, while servers provide the creativity and variation.

(on the blog post about modding)

[wide shadow]

exactly

[rose atlas]

^ what he said

[vast belfry]

correct me if am wrong but everything we will edit in the game using only serverside right ?

[rose atlas]

ALL the modding/plugins are handled by the server, yes.

[vale fog]

I was also just starting out, so I logged in to see if there was any more information besides the old post on the official forum. I've sent you a friend request. Can you accept it? For speak more about this

[magic nebula]

Just ask about it

[woeful depot]

You will use tools they provide to modify assets and then use Java to make plugins that will make these assets more alive & valuable.

[still carbon]

But we will always find a way ofc

[vale fog]

I originally wanted to send this as a private message, but since it makes more sense to share it here, I’m posting it openly.

I’m a software developer and I’m currently putting together a small team to create a Hytale servers once the game releases. I wanted to ask you if you might be interested in joining, but I’d also like to extend the invitation to anyone else who’s passionate about development and Hytale modding.

Our vision is to create a server full of original mini-games, as well as bring back some forgotten Minecraft classics that were popular back in the day but never reached their full potential due to Minecraft’s own limitations. The idea is to give those concepts a fresh twist, adapt them to Hytale’s systems, and also build brand-new game modes on top of that.

If you’re interested in being part of this project or want to know more, feel free to contact me! I’d be happy to talk. 👋

[magic nebula]

No I'm working over 50 hours a week I don't have time lmao

[leaden zephyr]

Nah

[rose atlas]

But may I ask why you want to find a way to tamper with the client? With so many tools we are provided and plugins being able to mod at core. Why? What benefits do you get from wanting to tamper with the client?

And if you mean stuff like "optifine" and such the game is already gonna be optimized

[vale fog]

No problem, anyone interested in participating should write to me 🙂

[still carbon]

Speaking for my friend group here man

[prisma agate]

There are plenty of reasons, client side modes that don't effect the server are extremely common in mc

Stuff like changing the UI, to showing extra info (like exact armor damage UI) or things like added hotkeys etc

[tardy plover]

On the other hand - I might not want players to use different UI features on my server. Best solution would be to give both options via the server config.

[near raptor]

It would not surprise me if modding the client will be prohibited (possibly backed by the ToS/EULA). But maybe the Hytale team don't want to go that far to outright ban modifying the client. Though if I were a server host, I might not want people with modified clients to join my server (because modified clients might mean hacks/cheats)

[hidden glade]

When you think about it, that's a very "Minecraft" way of doing things. No multiplayer game clients will let you modify the game, at least not easily

Mods that add armor damage or added hotkeys should already be included if it's necessary

[granite ridge]

Are there any German-speaking developers in this channel who are interested in an RPG server project? We provide the server and offer a fully developed concept.

[woeful depot]

I don't think they will bring some kind of kernel anticheat for this

[prisma agate]

No, that defeats the entire point, if I want my UI to be blue instead of red or whatever, the servers wouldn't want to add that, if it's a purely visual client side thing, it shouldn't be on the server

[near raptor]

I don't think so either, at least not from the start.

[woeful depot]

I don't think modding client is that easy because it's not made in unity and they are using QUIC for communication but possiblities are infinite

[prisma agate]

They can't really know, ppl will do it either way, for both good and bad reasons

[near raptor]

Sure, people will undoubtedly mod the client in one way or another.

[woeful depot]

Unless you are making a cheat client you won't need it

[near raptor]

I think it is best if people didn't, and if the server is in charge. If I think of certain RPG multiplayer servers in Minecraft, if they had the ability to do beyond what trickery they currently do with texture / data packs, the amount of creativity would be through the roof.

You could join one server and be in an RPG, and without any changes to your client, you can join another server and be in a third-person top-down dungeon crawler or something (if that is still possible from what we saw in the trailer). Really makes servers be able to offer completely different experiences.

[woeful depot]

Yup

[viscid wren]

They already said they won't prohibit it, but they're not exactly making it easy to do

[prisma agate]

This already exists, see wynncraft

And actually one of the best uses for client side mods is for these servers, for example one of my mods reads scoreboard UI and renders a custom hud for mama/health/shield

And u can expand it to show proper icons for cooldowns etc

[near raptor]

Well I didn't want to name any servers, but I did think of that one indeed. But the great part is that the server can change the UI in the client, so no need for these kind of mods in Hytale.

[prisma agate]

Depends how much it can do that, I doubt it can do stuff like change individual pixels or render shaders

[near raptor]

Maybe not, question is if you would need to control individual pixels or if building blocks like status icons, GUIs, menus with buttons, etc. would be enough to also still keep it "Orbis/Hytale"-themed. But I think for this it's a case of wait and see.

[prisma agate]

And again, u may want to change ur hearts position client side for all servers, I don't want all servers to do that

[near raptor]

Maybe? I wouldn't see a reason to modify these kind of things on the client because it might clash with whatever custom UIs and content is delivered by the server. But I guess that is up to people deciding to run client-side mods.

[modest burrow]

It’s alr this guy @prisma agate has bad takes anyways

[vale fog]

I don't speak German, but can I add you for the server thing?

[sinful zodiac]

Hi, could someone involved in the project let me know if there's any information about plugins yet, any info for the developers?

[prisma agate]

Ah yes let's disregard all my opinions just bcz I think cpp sucks (which is a very common opinion btw)

[near raptor]

Unfortunately, no concrete information yet. Assumed that this will come when the game launches on January 13.

[rose atlas]

modding blog on website tbh

[modest burrow]

I see more neovim configurations on your github than actual code

Language dev hasn’t written an interpreter even

Can’t trust this guy

[prisma agate]

Correct, I moved from it to gitea

[prisma agate]

I have in fact did it 3 years ago, currently working on a compiler

Not all my repos r public

[modest burrow]

Sure sure

[prisma agate]

Trying to disregard my credibility just makes u look weird, but u do u, I don't really care, but this way of behaving won't get u far

Have a good night!

[modest burrow]

Just gotta let em know to take what you say with a grain of salt. You have horrible points

[sinful zodiac]

okidoki tty

[magic nebula]

It's entirely possible the client has been designed to accommodate this

We don't know the extent of their scripting yet

[vale fog]

Part of it, yes. But there will be a part that will be private on the server. We would like to be able to contribute early on to creating a strong community and support other people who want to develop with open source as much as possible.

[dusky scarab]

I'm interested in helping :b

[vale fog]

I sent you a friend request so we can get organised

[blazing light]

There is a post about it on the blog

hytale(dot)com/news/2025/11/hytale-modding-strategy-and-status

[solemn brook]

dms

[robust lance]

I am interested in working with you

[vale fog]

Perfect, I sent you a friend request just like I did to nopox 🙂

[viscid wren]

Do people ever use an ORM for their sqlite files in Minecraft plugins? Or do most people just write the raw sql

[vale fog]

I recommend that you always use ORM to use the database whenever possible

[viscid wren]

For saving the database?

[vale fog]

To abstract yourself from the database

[viscid wren]

Ohh yeah

[barren halo]

I’m pretty sure that the devs have already stated they’re making as much of the UI server side as possible (though it might not all be at EA launch)

[formal burrow]

I @'d you in the discussion channel I can't forward it here, the hytalemodding site has details on everything so far

[barren halo]

Though now that I’ve read through the convo that point has already been made and you disregarded it…

[lilac pine]

Will plugins be written in C++, or Java? or maybe both?

[stark sphinx]

Java

[atomic nebula]

.jar files

[lilac pine]

ah alright, sweet.

[rose atlas]

Java.

[arctic mist]

ORM if the operations are not that complicated and performance is not an issue. Sometimes an ORM will generate some complex queries and to “fix” that you would need to start writing more heavy configuration in your ORM declarations

[atomic nebula]

@vale fog I tried to send you a DM, but it was blocked. I sent you a friend request instead. I'm interested in the project.

[atomic nebula]

Most ORMs are pretty bad, they feel more like hacks than actual end-to-end support. The only ORM I've ever worked with that actually felt native was EF from .NET. Imo, the biggest point in favor of ORMs is the type safety, at least in the Node.js world.

[arctic mist]

Not pretty bad as they abstract one of the most important parts of working with data. It helps on the no worries about querys part, but relying everything into an ORM will cause some crazy bad performance on complex operations. Even debugging ORMs operations is not the best thing to do

So, while it helps the developer, it brings some other work to do in the development process and affect the performance of the final application

Though for a game plugin, could not be as bad depending on the purpose of the plugin

[atomic nebula]

I mean, yeah, ORMs are useful, but it's more out of necessity than because they're well designed. They're better than nothing. Anyway, I doubt we'll have ORM support in Hytale. It's more likely that we'll be able to hook events into API requests instead. That would make the admin side language agnostic, since server owners could build their own tooling however they want.

[magic nebula]

I've never liked ORM or just object serialization in general

[atomic nebula]

Fair, I only use them for type safety and because migrations are easier.

[shy osprey]

Bro's what I can use Hytale API?

And what about the language of the Hytale server version, guys?

[tulip stream]

how are you already a professional hytale modder?

[shy osprey]

What is the software language of the Hytale API and how will it be used?

[undone creek]

That’s completely false Lol it’s Java not Java script

You’re wrong? It’s pretty obvious what I said

[undone creek]

You need to know Java to make any plugin in hytale

[tulip stream]

did they confirm it for the old engine or the new engine?

so you need to know javascript for modding?

yeah thats all i needed to know

[undone creek]

Please read the dev blog, you need to know Java

[tulip stream]

i should clarify, thats all i needed to know that he is bsing

[undone creek]

Rage bait used to believable lol

[shy osprey]

Uh understand, I know Java and JavaScript. Thanks for helping.

[shy osprey]

Understood, thanks bro.

[shy osprey]

Where is this?

[prisma agate]

That's good, but probably still limiting like no control over individual pixels/shaders but per server vs per client is a huge difference, there is a need for both

[dusky plume]

Hytale api is python

Stoop saying Dumb stuff

[prisma agate]

It's java

[dusky plume]

Its not

[solemn brook]

It’s just rage bait ignore

[latent spindle]

its laravel

[prisma olive]

It's cobol 💀

[prisma agate]

Banktale

[latent spindle]

its Cobra programming language

[pearl gulch]

Cap, HYTALE is written in java backend c# frontend

[sterile aspen]

kotlin

[sterile dove]

5/5

[vale fog]

Hello!

I just saw your request, I accept you now 🙂

Hello Rocky, would you be interested in participating in the project I mentioned above to create one of the first servers? We are recruiting people

[hidden glade]

You realize he's a troll

[vernal niche]

So Nitrado is planning to build some base plugins for other mod developers to use.

In terms of distribution for dev purposes, what would you folks prefer? Maven central + github releases?

[vale fog]

It seems so, but by asking him what he knows how to develop and if he is interested in helping, I have nothing to lose.

[vale fog]

I thought I read somewhere that they could be distributed within the game itself

[vernal niche]

I'm talking for development purposes, if you'd use one of our plugins as a library for example

[prisma olive]

Maven repo for sure

Github releases might be useful for server owners if they are standalone mods

[fleet isle]

Imma be honest, I've had waaay too many issues with Maven and/or Gradle. Sometimes adding the API library manually is better for me rather than having to deal with weird errors from Maven/Gradle. Speaking from Minecraft plugin and mod making experience

[vernal niche]

I hear that. We'll try to have some examples up but just pulling the jar from a github release would always be an option

As someone who hasn't been in the Java ecosystem for several years I'm primarily wondering if Gradle is worth supporting. It seems a bit.. obscure.

[modest burrow]

Of course gradle is worth supporting

Maven truly sucks lol, and gradle is flexible and more powerful than almost every other build tool in programming

[vernal niche]

See that's why I'm asking here x)

The impression I had gotten was "Gradle is always listed in the examples alongside maven but nobody actually uses it"

[modest burrow]

It’s definitely much more common now than maven

Or it’s growing to be, xml just sucks and gradle is mega powerful

[vernal niche]

Interesting. My perception might be skewed because of big enterprises that still use maven, maybe simply because that's what they always used.

But mod devs might lean more towards the newer, cooler stuff

[modest burrow]

Yea perhaps but even big enterprises are swapping to it since they have custom build logic and need better speeds

[vernal niche]

Cool. Thank you that really helps.

[modest burrow]

Oh yea and don’t listen to anything that @prisma agate guy says

Take what he says with a grain of salt

[vernal niche]

Oh I listen to what everybody says, doesn't mean I make my decisions based on any single voice

[blazing light]

Oh Gradle is definitely more common now

Especially the one with kotlin backend

[near raptor]

Maven and Gradle are both not the easiest to use compared to stuff like NPM. But Gradle is alright once you get it working.

In the Minecraft ecosystem, I don't see Maven being used that much anymore, most things are Gradle now. Probably because of things like the paperweight userdev Gradle plugin, making it very painful to do any kind of plugin development with Maven. Considering that a lot of people here might be coming from plugin development in Minecraft, I'd imagine Gradle once again becomes the go-to build tool.

[vernal niche]

[note making noises]

[fleet isle]

I wonder if it's going to be possible to hack together some kind of dev environment with Aspire.

[blazing light]

What even is Aspire? The one I know is C#

[near raptor]

I am not familiar with something called Aspire

[fleet isle]

To put it simply, it's a tool that makes local development easier (at least for me it does that).

The idea is essentially:
git clone
aspire run
and you should have a local dev version up and running of whatever it is that you're trying to run locally. Here it could be running the Hytale server instance locally with your own plugin or plugins.

[near raptor]

I guess Gradle can achieve the same with custom plugins

[fleet isle]

it absolutely can, it just depends on what you're developing. If it's something small I'm sure Gradle will be enough for majority people. But if you want to do more than that then there's potential benefit from using Aspire instead.

I think I will be developing more than just a simple plugin, that's why I will be looking into the possibility to create an Aspire dev environment

[near raptor]

Maybe? I don't know Aspire so I cannot compare it to what Gradle can or cannot do.

Sounds interesting though

[blazing light]

Can you link Aspire (replace . with dot)?

[near raptor]

Unfortunately links cannot be posted here

[fleet isle]

I have very little experience with Gradle so I can't really compare it either

[vernal niche]

Reading a little about Aspire I'm putting "Hot Module Reload" on my list because that would be huge, independent of build tool

[fleet isle]

aspire(dot)dev

[blazing light]

Ok thanks

[prisma agate]

Oh nice, I was planning to do my own hot reload, but if something exists that's cool

[blazing light]

It is C# only, not java

[blazing light]

Intellij already has hot reload

[fleet isle]

weeeeeeell, not exactly true

[prisma agate]

Oh welp, guess I gotta do my own reload

[prisma agate]

I don't use IntelliJ

[near raptor]

Seems to be a Microsoft product, so not really Java-friendly

[blazing light]

It is free, might aswell

[prisma agate]

I used to use it, switched to a different editor that I prefer

[vernal niche]

I guess this is one of these functionalities that many people would need so these are things we're considering to throw onto the Nitrado GitHub

[blazing light]

What do you use now?

Everything else failed to resolve my project properly

[prisma agate]

I'll make mine open source probably so people can just use it if they want

[prisma agate]

I use Neovim btw

[vernal niche]

Arch too?

[blazing light]

I am helix + arch user but not for java (helix not for java)

[prisma agate]

NixOS but I no longer like it, but Linux yes

[prisma agate]

I used to use IntelliJ for quite a while even after switching to nvim, but it's too heavy and doesn't have my customizations

[near raptor]

I've been a long-time IntelliJ user. It has everything that I need, and I don't really bother too much with highly customizing my IDEs because that only creates maintenance overhead.

[prisma agate]

And lately I started experimenting with disabling some LSP features, so not having the great IntelliJ LSP/integration isn't such a huge deal for me

[blazing light]

On big projects LSP is a must for java

[near raptor]

I think for Kotlin there is now a LSP being worked on by JetBrains too, independent of IntelliJ

Though that was mostly aimed at VS Code

[blazing light]

I have massive plugin with multiple nested submodules

I possibly cant remember all the APIs

[prisma agate]

For navigation yes, I specifically experimented with disabling inline diagnostics (and only seeing errors when compiling) which I find less distracting, and also disabling auto completion

Although for java I'd probably stick with auto completion just bcz it's verbose, or I might make snuppets

[blazing light]

jdtls just cant cope with it

[blazing light]

How do you force it to use build.gradle?

[prisma agate]

Wdym? I just compile it using the gradle cli

[blazing light]

I meant into the LSP

Since I need it to actually know the types

[prisma agate]

I use a nvim plugin that does some configuration stuff for it to work

There is nvim-jdtls and nvim-java, I think I use the jdtls one, u can look at my dotfiles if u want at git(dot)Kyren(dot)codes/kyren223/dotfiles

[blazing light]

I use jdtls too

Oh I see the issue it just reads build.gradle

But not the submodules since it does not use settings.gradle at all

Well IntelliJ idea it is 😄

[viscid wren]

yeah I use jdtls

[blazing light]

Yeah that is eclipse's language server

[viscid wren]

oh I use it in neovim 💀

This game can not come out fast enough, Im ready to build a server

[blazing light]

Well it is the only working java LSP that is open source.

[viscid wren]

Interesting

[blazing light]

But it just sucks compared to IntelliJ's thing

Mainly in speed but also in features

[prisma agate]

Speed was fine for me, but I have a Ryzen 9 9950x and haven't worked on huge projects

And jdtls on Neovim feels way more smooth than IntelliJ, which is very heavy/slow

[blazing light]

It used 50GB of ram on my plugin

With Ryzen 7 5700X

[prisma agate]

Seems like some sort of mem leak

[blazing light]

No the project is just that big

[prisma agate]

Seems kinda crazy for a plugin, what was the plugin about?

[blazing light]

I can dm if you want? 😄

[viscid wren]

jdtls using 50gb of ram 🤨

[blazing light]

It was with vscode at that time and gradle extension

[prisma agate]

R u sure it wasn't due to vscode?

[blazing light]

Could have been

[prisma agate]

And sure u can dm me

[blazing light]

I alr did 😄

[viscid wren]

Probably was vscode lol

[blazing light]

Or the gradle plugin injecting too many deps

[knotty basalt]

We can't open the server until the server software is released. When will the software be released?

[tulip stream]

This isn't minecraft

[knotty basalt]

If a server is to be opened with a plugin, server software is required. This is not something to be praised in Minecraft.

[woeful depot]

With the launch they will share server files

[tulip stream]

It's only a thing in minecraft because there's no official support

[knotty basalt]

thanks

[knotty basalt]

I'm sure it will be here too

[tulip stream]

They're giving support for mods and plug-ins. There won't be a need for 3rd party software

[knotty basalt]

if that's the case, that's good

[chilly moss]

Will mod and plugin creators have to get their mod verified or something? wouldnt want to play a mod that looks good and then its really bad and buggy or inappropriate

[tulip stream]

Idk

[woeful depot]

There are people saying they will blacklist P2W servers but I don't know how true is that. You would need to go and experience if a server is bad or not I guess

[fleet isle]

I think for the very first early access they're likely gonna go with a trust system rather than requiring verification system

[primal shoal]

you can install any plugin you want on your server, but if you want your server to appear on the server list you'd probably need to get verified somehow. Silkey said:

We will let the community handle this. You will be able to use CurseForge, Modrinth, etc. to discover mods. We want to bring it into the game in the future but we need more time
with regards to publishing mods

[fleet isle]

Theoretically speaking I want to believe you will be able to play any server just by entering the right address but if a server owner wants to have their server discoverable then it's likely going to have to be verified. That I think is very reasonable to do, imo

[viscid wren]

I hope the plugin API is as fully thought at as the SpigotAPI, seems like the spigot api really provides you with everything you need to create plugins

[tulip stream]

Probably will be better than spigot

[gusty trail]

We will be fine anyways, having an official modding APi is better than 99% of other modding experiences (unity modding is always chaotic)

[viscid wren]

That would be great

[fleet isle]

I would probably also bet on that early on the API is going to be changing a lot so stuff might be breaking until it gets figured out what works best

[viscid wren]

yeah wouldnt be surprised

im going to try and be one of the first servers out there, but we will see if thats even viable

[blazing light]

Most likely isnt going to be on launch

The devs said it themselves

What this means for you right now:

You will run into limitations due to missing editing capabilities.
Certain aspects of client behaviour are not yet exposed to the server.
Some tools and systems are rough, inconsistent, or painful to work with.
Modding maturity is wildly uneven depending on what you want to build.

Now for the blunt part: we are behind where we want to be.

We are missing years of development time that we now need to compress into months.
There are gaps in our tools, our documentation, and the ways systems are exposed.
Some features exist only because they were hacked together during prototyping and never polished.

Just have realistic expectations

[tulip stream]

Ah

[blazing light]

hytale(dot)com/news/2025/11/hytale-modding-strategy-and-status

It will improve over time they even said the UI library is going to be swapped in the near future

[fleet isle]

In theory there are probably going to be two options when you're going to want to make a feature that doesn't seem to be easily possible: Either you wait for it to be easily possible, or you do the hard and dirty work to make it possible but expect it to break with updates.

[blazing light]

I think intially there will be a lot of breaking changes

@random magnet Am I right or should we expect most API to be stable and just some parts rapidly developing?

[tulip stream]

Does he actually respond?

[blazing light]

Not sure if he will

[magic nebula]

99% of the people who use gradle don't use any of the features it offers. Gradle in itself is a programming language and likes to break upon newer java release. Maven is more rock solid since it's just a config file.

[prisma agate]

Actually will there even be an API at all? if we have the entire server source we can just directly add stuff

[blazing light]

If you want to maintain a fork, yeah

But you probably want to just extend based on the public API

[vernal niche]

When I originally asked the question I hadn't fully realized that gradle just pulls from maven repositories so I guess there isn't really a concept of "supporting Gradle" other than, idk, build setup examples

[magic nebula]

There will be

Otherwise we will have cancerous source mods

[prisma agate]

U don't have to maintain a fork as long as u create ur own classes, so when the server updates it doesn't conflict with ur code

[prisma olive]

Gradle supports maven repository so yeah you just upload your mods on a maven repo and it's good for both Maven and Gradle

[magic nebula]

Or there should be*

We have technology

We don't need to be distributing patch files

[blazing light]

That is literally extending the public api then

[prisma agate]

I mean mixins in MC mod dev is really useful, there is a ton of reasons why you would want to change existing code/behaviour of stuff

And with Hytale it'd be way more straightforward, bcz u can edit the actual code (no need for weird injections)

[magic nebula]

I'm talking pre mixin, pre forge

[wraith crane]

same concept but for the client

[magic nebula]

Mixin is better than editing source files directly

[prisma agate]

I disagree, it's just more work,and if ur changes are small it's not a huge deal to maintain a fork

[magic nebula]

The issue isn't on the developers end, it's on the users end

You aren't going to ask a user to manually merge 10 different forks together

[prisma agate]

User as in server owner?

[magic nebula]

Especially when they likely don't even know programming

Yes

[prisma agate]

Actually how does Hytale plan to do that? bcz there is afaik no system where u just drop jars and only use the Hytale server as a "library"

[magic nebula]

Java modules

Or a custom class loader solution

[prisma agate]

My impression was u need to build the jar urself with whatever additions, so to combine multiple stuff u would need some mod loader

[magic nebula]

You don't need one persay

[prisma agate]

So for combining multiple mods u will still need a mod loader like spigot/forge/fabric for managing and loading plugins

[magic nebula]

No

[prisma agate]

Hytale will have an existing thing that does that?

[magic nebula]

The jvm can already do that for you

[prisma agate]

Yes but u need to write some code to ask it to load modules

[magic nebula]

No, just change your launch script

[prisma agate]

Wdym? can it load multiple jars, and if it can, then how would u have things like their own main for initalization? (akin to onEnable/onDisable)

[magic nebula]

That's an API decision

[blazing light]

You just call your entrypoint or something

Or it goes through directory to find jars

There is a lot of ways to do it

[prisma agate]

Ye sp u need something to do the managing of plugins, to call their start/end functions, or load any from a directory etc

Which is what I call a mod loader, which either is builtin into Hytale, or the community will need to make one (fairly easy to do)

[blazing light]

Or you just run your jar entrypoint and register yourself to the game

[magic nebula]

It can be done this way, it doesn't have to be

That is the better way to do it, but not required

[prisma agate]

The alternative wouldn't really allow for multiple plugins

[lavish creek]

Do you know of any recognized repositories on GitHub about good practices for creating plugins in Minecraft?

[blazing light]

Why not?

[magic nebula]

It would

[prisma agate]

There needs to be some code that allows the plugins code to run

[magic nebula]

Static initializer blocks:)

[blazing light]

You just launch your entrypoint and register yourself into the game

What is so hard about it?

[prisma agate]

Oh right those exists, so I guess as long as u load all jars into the same space it'd work fine

[stray pasture]

I may be confused, but are you asking how are plugins read into Hytale/pluggable games?

[magic nebula]

It's definitely a terrible way to do things, but it is possible

[prisma agate]

Ye if Hytale already has something like spigot that manages plugins (reading jars from a directory, then loading them into the environment, then calling their onEnable/onDisable so they can start)

Or if not, then the community will probably make one

[magic nebula]

If not, I will strap my loader onto hytale because it's awesome:)

[blazing light]

Tbh that onEnable pattern is awfull please just call the constructor

[stray pasture]

Yes, any plugin system must provide contracts and implementation methods so you know what to add to your plugin and the app knows and can execute your plugin - It is a portable entry point.

If they support plugins like they say they do they will provide an API giving us the implementations for a basic functioning plugin.

[prisma agate]

Having it be a singleton is a bad pattern, but they kinda had to bcz they want every plugin to have it's own instance so they can manage it

[prisma agate]

Is it open source? I was planning to make one, but I might just yoink yours

[cinder kiln]

I don't think this would work? Unless I'm missing a piece to what you're saying; the jvm (hotspot, at the very least) doesn't run clinit until initialization iirc, which would require something to interact with the class in some way outside of it just being loaded

[blazing light]

What is a singleton in it?

[stray pasture]

An Object Oriented Programing concept that defines a class to be the sole instance of that class

Like a static class

[blazing light]

No, I know but where is singleton used in paper api?
You replied that onEnable has something to do with singletons, I dont get that.

[prisma agate]

A stupid "design pattern" where instead of having a class with static methods, u have a class but u only make one instance of it (so it's the same, except it's more code)

[prisma agate]

The MyPlugin extends JavaPlugin is a singleton, there can only be one instance of it

[random magnet]

Difficult to say. Most API is stable but in the first few months I do expect us to break things more than usual in order to quickly repair crashes.
Most systems are pretty stable but as the code based ages through the initial storm, we will need to figure out our policy on code changes that may prevent mods from functioning.

[stray pasture]

Static methods do not work for statful applications, which is where singletons are used for things such as manager patterns.

[vernal niche]

Well hello there

[blazing light]

I would say that is necessary

[prisma agate]

Would there be a "loader" that loads multiple jars from a directory (similar to spigot) or will the community need to make one?

[random magnet]

The server has a Plugin system already built in - in fact the server uses that Plugin system itself as quite a significant amount of code is organized into that to keep the codebase clean.
We are still transitioning things over but our aim is a high degree of modularity to allow server operators to customize their server beyond anything seen before.

[blazing light]

Oh so the base game is a plugin?

[stray pasture]

Glad to hear yall are dogfooding your own systems!

[meager hamlet]

Hello slimey can I ask some questions in dms if you don't mind .

[prisma agate]

Awesome so it's builtin already, so no wars for forge vs fabric fs spigot vs paper etc

[blazing light]

Is there native built-in sharding?

[fleet isle]

That sounds like the way Factorio does it where they have a game engine with mod support and the actual game is a mod for that game engine so anything the base mod does can be replicated by any mod

[stray pasture]

The base game may not be a full plugin, but it is likely they use much of their system for many of the base game systems.

[vernal niche]

Speaking as someone who had to support all of the different modding frameworks and game versions for Minecraft... I couldn't be happier about how Hytale is doing things x)

[prisma agate]

That also means u can have forks for ur server for extra control, but u can still use plugins normally, which is great

[stray pasture]

I honestly couldn't imagine why or how they could do it any other way, considering they are developing for moddability - Most games who have modding in mind develop for modding.

[meager hamlet]

Working on a hytale server looking for Dev's testers and other positions as well.

[clear ledge]

Do we have any information about Hytale's API for modding for now ? Any documentation or other ?

[random magnet]

We are not there exactly. We still have a bunch of things hardcoded in some areas. Some things are supposed to move from the core into a Plugin etc. We have systems which are in a prototype stage and others haven't been touched in years and just work as stable. The whole thing is a bit of a mess right now and only the source can tell you the details

[blazing light]

There will not be documentation. You will get the source on release and in EA we can use the decompiled jar.

[clear ledge]

Oh, ok, so we will get this on january 13th ?

[blazing light]

Yeah

[fleet isle]

But would it be realistic to think that eventually it would be best to move as much as possible from hardcoded to adjustable in a plugin?

[random magnet]

Yes, the moment you get the game you can make a server and start modding.

[clear ledge]

Oh, perfect !

[blazing light]

Is there native built-in sharding?

[primal shoal]

just wondering, what graphics api does hytale use for rendering? is it like minecraft where it's opengl or is something else like vk or dx used?

[blazing light]

I need to know how many players I can expect to fit

[meager hamlet]

Hello can I ask some questions in dms if that's cool

[random magnet]

I would rather say as much as reasonable because pulling out some things from the core would just lead to over-abstracting things and then it would become harder to work with. We will strike a balance but I have no idea yet what we will end up with.

[blazing light]

In case there is not the dev of MultiPaper and ShreddedPaper would be interested in making one for you. I can get you in contact with him if you want

[clear ledge]

It's in java or c# ? cuz i know that in the past, some people talk about c#

[meager hamlet]

Looking for people to join development of a server looking for people to test people to develop and other roles as well .

[prisma agate]

Is the jar (until source is available) will be obfuscated? or will stuff like class/function names will be as is? (and also local vars?)

[blazing light]

They said no obfuscation

[primal shoal]

java server, c# client

[random magnet]

No single world sharding built in. You can use a transfer packet and portals to connect multiple servers together and send players between them but there is no sharding at the moment.

[meager hamlet]

Hello slikey i am a server developer and my plans regarding hytale I want to ask some questions if that's fine with you can we talk in dms.

[random magnet]

I am not accepting friend requests at this moment, sorry. If you have questions please ask them publicly

[blazing light]

I am guessing you are not interested in adding that into the base game right?

[prisma agate]

So I assume this means no "worlds/dimensions" (nether, end, custom)? there is only one world per server?

[random magnet]

That's different. There is multiworld support already, we use it for the base game.