server-plugins-read-only

[leaden zephyr]

It will be fine, certainly.

[scarlet spoke]

You can either use memory management as cache or directly use redis

[remote garnet]

I can relate haha

[main moon]

There are even people using json as data storage

[viscid wren]

I mean this is just for a factions plugin is that really needed 💀

[viscid wren]

Yeah lol

Doesn't essentials store all the econ stuff in yml

[main moon]

Exactly

[scarlet spoke]

Nah, I don't think so.
Concurrency safety is only needed for data which can be modified by multiple tasks.
Like economy or inventory

[leaden zephyr]

Well i will integrate sqlite now in my framework, thanks for the recommendation @viscid wren

[scarlet spoke]

sqlite is the simplest for medium server plugins, which doesn't interact with multiple tasks.
Put it on your server and run the server with the plugin, you should be fine

[viscid wren]

Right I mean I was testing pvp with my alt and it was calculating during PVP that both players were in the same faction every hit, so it doesn't seem to be iffy reading the database that fast

[magic stirrup]

SQLite for mods yea, for plugins idk. AFAIK sqlite locks the file everytime a statement is executed.. So good luck with multi-user stuff happening. There are some ways to prevent that, but in my mind its better to choose a database-server for multi-user apps/software

[scarlet spoke]

I mean, I'd rather cache this then have a sqlite check every time there is a playerdmg event

[prisma agate]

SQLite is fine for 99% of use cases, if u r not a huge company with millions of users

[leaden zephyr]

I'm pretty sure sqlite will be fine no matter what size of plugin and servers, if you use it properly.

[viscid wren]

Yeah this particular aspect of the plugin would probably most be in need of a cache, but other stuff like /f who I don't think that would be necessary for

[prisma agate]

Yep, I doubt any plugin pushes it to it's limits

[scarlet spoke]

If you got the memory storage, cache everything you can x)

[magic stirrup]

I only used SQLite for my flutter apps, never tried it in mutli-user environment 😄

[prisma agate]

Maybe only a huge server like hypixel that has 10-100k players

[scarlet spoke]

Redis <=> MongoDB for large servers is best option for cacheable stuff.

[viscid wren]

Starting off I won't be able to cache every operation, but if my server slowly grows over time I can definitely do that

Plus I'm still a bit new to Java and plugin development, trying to get something out that first, then I can go back and optimize

[prisma agate]

Ehhhh not really

I mean it's fine but there r simpler and potentially faster solutions

[main moon]

Launch fast improve later

[leaden zephyr]

I didn't want to start a "this vs. that" discussion here. Ultimately, it will work if implemented correctly.

[main moon]

You will always have technical debt

[scarlet spoke]

Faster than redis?! Like what

[main moon]

Look at Hytale

[magic stirrup]

Since there's no proxy like bungee or velocity, for handling across-server stuff, redis pub-sub will be the way to go for me anyway

[prisma agate]

Anything that is more specialized, which depends on the problem at hand, what r u trying to cache

[main moon]

We will be able to transfer packets

[remote garnet]

a server is a "single user" environment normally, as in the server is the only application accessing the database itself directly - typically that is ^^ a user in case of concurrency and thread safety would be threads accessing data at the same time

[scarlet spoke]

I've worked with Redis and MongoDB storage on a 1k players GTA V Alternative Multiplayer server which used MariaDB before and own cache methods.
Increase the RAM usage by 30 GB but the interaction speeds for every player was like 70ms or something. Before in peak, you had to wait several seconds

[prisma agate]

Ye, it's only a single connection

[magic stirrup]

I thought theres only one transfer packet with 4kb payload, which sends the client from server a to server b, providing the payload to server b. Am I misunderstanding that?

[main moon]

Yeah was typo

[prisma agate]

Then their "own cache methods" were poorly designed, if u know what u r doing, specialized solutions are always faster, you can make assumptions about your data which redis can't

[viscid wren]

Yup

[main moon]

Lets not forget there are literally Minecraft server (Which are single threaded) running essentials with 1k people online

[leaden zephyr]

Yes with 5TPS

[prisma agate]

Not really, they use instances

[magic stirrup]

But that still doesn't solve the classic ban-issue 😄 User A on Server A gets banned by User B on Server B. There's no builtin way to communicate across servers to let all servers know they should kick User A. Any for that my choice would be anything "pub-sub"ish

[viscid wren]

I've never even done multi threaded code really

I'm a typescript developer 😭

[main moon]

🤣 Okay not all of them

[main moon]

I am talking pre 1.8.8 - Faction servers

[main moon]

Oh yeah facts

[leaden zephyr]

It would be interesting to know which database system the official Hypixel server uses.

[main moon]

Mongodb iirc

[prisma agate]

On the same server? Maybe older Minecraft was more optimized, but I doubt 1k players was a thing

[main moon]

Probably many

[true socket]

I had a server with a few hundred concurrent players and like 90k registered (offline mode), somehow essentials scaled fine although the 90k yml files it generated (one per player) was a bit annoying

[viscid wren]

Yeah I have no clue how essentials works with yml persistent storage like that, but hey if it works it works

[main moon]

They ran paper

[prisma agate]

I think like 200-400 is around the maximum of a single server

[true socket]

I don’t think it’s a good solution at all, but yes, it works

[main moon]

Its crazy

[prisma agate]

Wynncraft has a 50 limit

[main moon]

I mean Wynncraft is really something different

[magic stirrup]

Thats correct alongside with SeaweedFS, mentioned in the post about the slime format from 2019

[true socket]

it really doesn’t need to be this complicated, use SQLite if you can’t setup a database service, postgres if you can, mysql or mongo if you’re already used to them

[leaden zephyr]

If you use folia? Maybe. If you use a traditional server like spigot, paper or even more "optimized" forks, you really will have problems with more than 200 players on a single server.

[prisma agate]

SQLite is simplest, just always use that

[main moon]

Just dont forget to index your databases

And do not forget to backup your sqllite / any database

[prisma agate]

Ye 200 is the max afaik without folia, with folia I heard even 1k was fine

[viscid wren]

I was thinking about postgres but since it's technically a remote connection, seemed like it might be slower than reading the sqlite file?

Also having the plugin generate the sqlite file in its own directory seems more self contained

[storm glen]

If you don't index - You're gonna have a bad time.

[true socket]

nah, it’s simple and fast enough but you’ll never be able to sync between multiple servers and auto backups might be a pain

worth using if you can’t setup a database service or don’t want to but otherwise nah

[leaden zephyr]

Intern after deleting the production database:
It's fine, somebody has a backup.
nobody has one

[viscid wren]

Primary keys automatically create an index right

[prisma agate]

If it's the same machine it'd be slower by a bit, localhost optimizations exist, but if it's remote then it'd be veryyy slow

[hushed tapir]

Yes.

[prisma agate]

Just use SQLite, no need for postgresql

[storm glen]

Its too cheap to buy a backup NAS to have the excuse of not doing backups.

[viscid wren]

Right 🤔

[leaden zephyr]

Yes it actually did work for 1k players on a test but they needed to basicly alter every vanilla mechanic and redstone did not work and so on... So you are not wrong but 1k concurrent with a normal plugin scenario, no.

[viscid wren]

That's what I figured, I remember creating secondary indexes a few times in dynamodb, but never had to really do it in SQL, probably should figure that out

[main moon]

Sqllite is alctually faster, but can only have 1 connection at a time, meanwhile with other "modern" database systems you can setup a connection pool and have multiple changes to a database at once meaning you can leverage multiple threads

But we are literally talking about milliseconds, maybe even nanoseconds

[viscid wren]

I don't think my hytale server will need that level of scaling, but if somehow I get lucky and it blows up to have like 1000 uses online at a time, maybe 😅

[true socket]

probably easier and cheaper to just backup to s3 or cloudflare r2 or something

[main moon]

Yeah but remember, when you want 2 instances with the same data there will be no way since you cannot access the sqllite data remotely

[prisma agate]

What
Backups r so easy, it's just a single file u SCP to another server

For sync u can also just setup a server and have a small program forward network queries, not that complicated

[main moon]

Or lets say a scoreboard in another server or display them on the website

[leaden zephyr]

[prisma agate]

Those r expensive af, u can buy an entire 2tb hard drive for like 50-100usd iirc

[main moon]

Just google backup opensource database

There lots of battle tested solutions

[true socket]

imagine if instead of having to do all that to sync the updated database was just already on both servers

[true socket]

im taking about automated backups

[prisma agate]

Doing that is way simpler than setting up a psql db lol

[prisma agate]

Systemd unit + timer to run SCP every hour or whatever

[main moon]

Lets store everthing in memory and never turn off the server

[prisma agate]

Literally 5m to setup

[true socket]

you’re losing way too much just to avoid setting up Postgres

[hidden rain]

Anyone here in development servers (doesn't matter where the focus lies)? I have experience in both C# and Java and completed a Bachelors in the IT so I'm sure i'll be of some help and I'm just really excited to make something for this beautifull game.

[true socket]

no it isn’t

[hushed tapir]

Very rarely is SQLite a great database to go with, it is most often used for small, low bandwidth operations, like app storage for mobile apps. (That's why its the most used database in the world)

PostgreSQL is often a much better database for various reasons, both in the feature set, but also in terms of stability and backups.

Underpowering the database is not a good compromise for simplicity. Doesn't have to be PostgreSQL.

[true socket]

@prisma agate if you think it’s always better to use SQLite then you simply havnt had to deal with the scale where SQLite is a pain

[prisma agate]

I am gaining simplicity which is extremely powerful, eventually u will understand

[leaden zephyr]

What have i done

[main moon]

fr

[hushed tapir]

Database discussion is a hot topic 😎

[prisma agate]

I never said always, but in 99% of use cases it's fine

Only if u r dealing with millions of data entries then sure use psql

[upbeat walrus]

excel as db

[true socket]

im surprised this is an argument in the first place

[prisma agate]

But in that case psql might not be a fit, and u might need something more specialized like what discord did

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah suddenly everyone is a database expert with 20 years of experience xd

[main moon]

The winner

[true socket]

discord is at the scale of trillions of messages it isn’t worth considering that sort of scale yet

[leaden zephyr]

Excel as database is the winner

[hidden rain]

nah man .txt files

[hushed tapir]

Like most things in tech, everyone will have their opinions.
It's good to have a discussion though, and everyone has different experiences.

[viscid wren]

Make an API request to download your google sheets from google drive everytime you want to update a row in your database

[prisma agate]

Most ppl won't get to the millions/billions scale, so u should also not consider that

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah no worries, was meant as a joke xD
Everyone was friendly so far, i'm just playing around

[prisma agate]

If u do, sure use psql, otherwise use SQLite

[scarlet spoke]

I love those database conversation every time in any game where you can host your own server. x)
All type of database will have their use case. Even simple config files can be used for storing data.

It's just a question, is it safe to use for this case and what if my server increases player count from 10 to 1000 in 2 weeks.

[true socket]

you’re arguing that manually synchronising multiple SQLite databases is a better solution than using a Postgres database

this is just silly

[prisma agate]

Not manually, u can easily automate it

[hushed tapir]

Definitely, a most of the time, an option will be fitting for the forseable future. I'm currently working on a large project that has been using MongoDB up until now, but we're moving to PostgreSQL due to various reasons, and it's 4 years since the project started. It's always good to go a little over your assumptions though, since migrating databases isn't fun 😅

[true socket]

this is far more complex than just using Postgres, you end up with duplicate data everywhere so double the storage used, any synchronisation fail could be a massive issue, it’s just like… bruh

[main moon]

I would literally just google benchmark sqllite vs [Database] at this point, and find valuable writeups

And go with the best for your usecase

[prisma agate]

Wait u mean distributing the db or just allowing multiple machines to access it?

[leaden zephyr]

"Several people are typing"
Man this is the heat i want

[true socket]

this isn’t about the performance, every single database option will perform well enough (not including config files for player data lol)

[main moon]

It was

[rough viper]

I dont think i have ever seen a dev chat talk about databases, but i love it.^
But the best database really depends, for example is it distrobuted? does it need ACID?
Is performance what you need? All things to think about

[scarlet spoke]

Sometimes you have to adapt, most time you are fine when you over-calculate and keep it there, doesn't mean I have to make a config database for stuff which only loads on server startup. Keep it in the .yaml/.json/.cfg/.enterAnyTextFileFormatHere

[main moon]

Yes

[magic stirrup]

Choose the right tool for the job. 👍

[main moon]

The next talk will be about, should we use an ORM or write plain queries

[true socket]

just multiple machines or even just server instances accessing it

or I guess both actually
it’s the same problem

[main moon]

I already know the answer

[hushed tapir]

Oh god, don't start that 😂

[prisma agate]

If u need millions/billions of data entries, and or distribution, then sure psql is fine, if u don't, use SQLite

[true socket]

please no we don’t need to argue this (it doesn’t matter at all use what you prefer)

[storm glen]

My favorite part of databases is the analytics.

[sterile dove]

databases depend on preference and use cases,

and orm's all the way

[rough viper]

I dont know why, but i just dont like ORM, never have, never will

[leaden zephyr]

Both are excellent databases.

[scarlet spoke]

But <Enter any database name here> is better!!!!!!1111

[sterile dove]

:D

[true socket]

whos gonna use hibrenate in their hytale plugins

[sterile dove]

and u should always have redis with ur db!

[prisma agate]

Very different problems

Distributed db means multiple machines running the same db, this is a hard problem, but u rarely ever reach this scale

Accessing a centralized db from multiple machines is way more common, and is very easy to do with SQLite

[leaden zephyr]

Just do it like me, i support multiple database systems for my plugins and the user can decide which one fits better
Zero competition and everyone is happy

[sterile dove]

Im not, i use jetbrains exposed :)

[true socket]

oh I misunderstood ur question

[storm glen]

Design to your current problems, dont design for tomorrow. Scaling is easy to do when you're successful.

[prisma agate]

ORMs suck

[true socket]

hell no im not talking about db sharding none of us need that

[sterile dove]

also the coding language u use sucks! Kotlin is better!

[main moon]

Ship fast 😎

[true socket]

it doesn’t matter

[leaden zephyr]

Do you guys have beef now

[prisma agate]

How do u know what lang I use lol

[sterile dove]

I don't:)

[true socket]

ORMs will make no practical difference if you like ORMs use one otherwise don’t, at runtime it doesn’t really make a difference

[prisma agate]

I use C

[leaden zephyr]

based

[storm glen]

Our ancestors are all the same. Bits and bytes.

[prisma agate]

And currently writing a compiler, to replace C, bcz C has some flaws

[true socket]

have you considered just using a different language then

[leaden zephyr]

nerds

[prisma agate]

Yes, I tried a bunch, all of them r not great, except one which is unavailable to the public

[main moon]

I swear Skript is public

[prisma agate]

Did u look at my tag

[true socket]

lol

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah that's why

[true socket]

what do u guys think of jetbrains IDEs

[prisma agate]

Decent I guess

[leaden zephyr]

Rust, Zig... insert many more languages here

[sterile dove]

best

[main moon]

I switched to VSCode as much as possible

[magic stirrup]

using them for quite some time, but they're getting bloated lately

[true socket]

I’ve used IDEA for many years now but I want to get rid of it I’ve had to deal with a bit too many bugs

[prisma agate]

Jetbrains r way better than vsc*de

[leaden zephyr]

Intellij is great for java and a recommendation for everyone working with it but nowadays it does not matter that much.
I personally use zed for all of my projects, once setup correctly it works fine. But vscode, eclipse all of em are fine tbh.

[true socket]

idk if I should swap to eclipse for vscode for java

[prisma agate]

There is zed for a not dogwater vscode

[main moon]

I actually use both Vscode and Jetbrains

[true socket]

shush you use vim

[leaden zephyr]

Excuse me?

[prisma agate]

I use nvim btw

[storm glen]

Im lucky. Im a teacher so I have IntelliJ Ultimate for free

[main moon]

Btw for the VSCode people here that write C#, Jetbrains has a public preview of Resharper extension for VSCode. just google ReSharper for Visual Studio Code

[leaden zephyr]

neovim is great, zed has a vim mode too so i switched. (like every major editor has)

[true socket]

im a student so I have it for free too but the more I use it the more I hate it

[prisma agate]

Eclipse LSP kinda sucks, I was still using IntelliJ for like a few months even after switching to nvim, just bcz of the LSP difference

[main moon]

Can we talk about how jetbrain toolbox still has no "Open with.." in windows

[prisma agate]

Zed's vim and ideavim r really good emulations

But I really like control over the UI that nvim gives

[viscid wren]

Python hytale plugins when

[scarlet spoke]

Don't you get another desktop license for free?

[leaden zephyr]

Tip for any jetbrains ide user:
Use the new "Islands Dark" beta theme, it's really stunning.

[storm glen]

From what ive seen we can use it on multiple devices.

[prisma agate]

U can, just need to link it via c abi

[viscid wren]

😭

[true socket]

is eclipse good

[scarlet spoke]

Well, well, well. Than... How are you today? Good?

[main moon]

No

[true socket]

why not?

[prisma agate]

It's outdated, I wouldn't use it

[viscid wren]

Just use neovim then you can use whatever colors you want

[storm glen]

😂

[main moon]

Eclipse is deprecated asaik

[hushed tapir]

It's quite old and doesn't come with the same features that IntelliJ does, and since IntelliJ Community is free - I'd just use that.

[viscid wren]

I remember trying to use eclipse to code in like 2013 😭

[sterile dove]

eclipse didnt feel as bloated as intellij

[hushed tapir]

That's true

[prisma agate]

It's still bloated tho

[leaden zephyr]

The real gang used netbeans back there. It was really nice.

[true socket]

im trying to get away from IDEA because its been really buggy for me recently

[sterile dove]

probably, thats how i just remember it feeling:D

[prisma agate]

Zed is fairly lightweight and has the same LSP as eclipse for java

[main moon]

Jetbrains need to fix their WSL integration

And themes

[true socket]

isn’t zed like practically a vibe coding ide

[sterile dove]

default theme = best, never breaks:)

[leaden zephyr]

If you a beginner in java, just use intellij idea, if you think its bloated: Uninstall plugins

[sterile dove]

actually im lying i have eclipse dark theme on intellij XD

[leaden zephyr]

No. You can turn off ai completely.

[prisma agate]

IntelliJ - features but bloated and heavy
Zed - less features but less bloated
Nvim - no bloat, same features as eclipse/zed, and super customizable

[main moon]

Intellij AI Assistant is also a joke

[true socket]

oh, I was thinking of some other ide I forgot which

[main moon]

100 (Excl vat) a year for 10 credits a month

[true socket]

yeah im gonna migrate away from jetbrains stuff even though I have the all products pack for free

[prisma agate]

insert any vsc*de fork

[main moon]

Jetbrains should finish fleet, even though its a macbook ipad move

[true socket]

I think regular vscode is a good option, it’s quite light and soooo many people use it it has plugins for everything

[sterile dove]

I waited fleet for ages and was on betas and even after years its still super slow:D even tho it should be faster than intellij

[prisma agate]

Fleet is meh, I think ppl who want fleet just use zed

[main moon]

fr

[sterile dove]

literally unusable

[leaden zephyr]

Hey brother i get it, i'm also a neovim enjoyer...
But if you are honest, you will rewrite your nvim configuration every 2-3 weeks from scratch which is pain.

Intellij will be less bloated if you just uninstall plugins, i do that, it's fast, it's not bloated anymore.
Zed is the fastest option for a gui text editor without a doubt.

Do i still use all of em? Yes. Are all good? Yeah

[rough viper]

I like vscode when doing python, way better than pycharm, but for Java, intellj is the only way

[main moon]

Hopefully Hytale wont endup as I know Jetbrains Fleet 🙏

[true socket]

yeah it annoys me that everyone ever uses IntelliJ idea for java because I really don’t like it anymore but no one uses anything else

[leaden zephyr]

What is that and what happened

[true socket]

I wonder if the java extension for vscode (the one based on eclipse) is good

[leaden zephyr]

It will be fine.

[sterile dove]

Years of waiting, being on beta, promises of it coming main dev platform for kotlin multiplatform projects, years of waiting and bugs, they cancel the multiplatform part, and its still full of bugs and slower than intellij anyways

[main moon]

Its a vscode competitor but with super smart features (pre AI) it got ALOT of hype and was basically called the "VSCode killer" but they really never launched it or propperly released it because they would literally shoot their own feet because of the many IDE"s they sell

[leaden zephyr]

That's sad.

[prisma agate]

Even without plugins it's bloated, I use Clion as a debugger and it's kinda slow, especially startup times

Also I don't rewrite my config every 3 weeks, I usually make a small 1 line change once a week or so to add stuff like tabs config for a new lang or whatever, the last major thing I did is spend 3 hours adding a run hotkey which opens a split with the code output, which saved me so much time and is really nice (so totally worth it)

[leaden zephyr]

Anyways i clone vscode now, time for a new vscode ai fork!!! The world will be a better place with it, i promise!!!!!

[sterile dove]

i spent 23 hours of watching intellij videos before moving to it from eclipse back in the day 😂

[prisma agate]

But in terms of updating plugins and stuff, haven't done that for a few months

[leaden zephyr]

What do you mean by "bloated", maybe we have different meanings about that.

[main moon]

Only if I could sent a screenshot in here

[prisma agate]

Well it feels "heavy" which is both a ton of complex UI and being slow, bloated is probably not a great term

[sterile dove]

14/09/2022 is when i moved to intellij lol, still have the shortcuts.txt which i used to learn shortcuts

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah it is a common joke that you rewrite the config every 2-3 weeks from scratch. Man as a neovim enjoyer you need to know that... Be better!

[main moon]

Jetbrains settings feels like a jigsaw puzzle

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah i totally agree then.

[main moon]

I love how vscode leverages JSON for everything

Its intended purpose

[prisma agate]

I do know that, but it's literally a skill issue, nobody forces ppl to update and break their configs

[leaden zephyr]

So next topic: JAYSON vs TOML
(don't do that)

[sterile dove]

Its really easy, just shift+shift and type anything there or ctrl + alt + s to open settings and use search bar

[prisma agate]

Wait wasn't it intended to encode binary as a base64 string

[main moon]

Sorry I am on linkedin, I use TOON

[sterile dove]

toml for dependency management/versioning:)

[prisma agate]

Toml is nicer as a config, for serialization both suck

[main moon]

Well let me intervine a second time, I prefere jsonc for configs

[leaden zephyr]

What have i done (again)

[prisma agate]

Next topic for debate?

[sterile dove]

gradle kts vs gradle vs maven:)

[magic stirrup]

good one, but u forgot ant

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah i also think that TOML is nicer to read. JSON is great tho.

[prisma agate]

All suck, but gradle kts for complex projects, maven for simple ones

[leaden zephyr]

Wait what?

[sterile dove]

😂 That was the way to go when i used eclipse, what a pain!

[main moon]

I love debating software I stuck with without any research, just arguing with vibes, vibedebating

[leaden zephyr]

Why is maven "simple" compared to gradle?

[willow acorn]

typescript wins, no diff

[main moon]

Because html

[prisma agate]

I find it more straightforward to do stuff, maybe just a familiarity thing

[leaden zephyr]

A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts. So, he loses touch with reality and lives in a world of illusions.

[sterile dove]

gradle kts is best since u can write kotlin there, and gradle is way cleaner than maven

[main moon]

I mean gradle uses the groovy scripting language while maven is just HTML

[magic stirrup]

last employer had a really old legacy spring project with ant and java 4. Crazy that people actually work there longer than 1 year

[prisma agate]

XML

[main moon]

I literally got baited by my own joke

I am not even gonna edit it 😪

[prisma agate]

Next topic: reasons for why Rust is a bad language

[sterile dove]

its good

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah i assume so, it may a personal preference for you.
Both gradle and maven are literally one command to create a project and also gradle has way less boilerplate for a small project.

But i agree that both are valid.

[main moon]

Well actually memory safety 🤓☝

[leaden zephyr]

Aktwually

[prisma agate]

Java is also memory safe

[leaden zephyr]

Prayers for every lost soul who still uses java 8 because of the company they work in
Java 25 is great btw

[prisma agate]

Why do u think that

[main moon]

Next topic: How could I use Blockchain in my Hytale server, even though a normal database would be fine

[sterile dove]

haven't used rust much, just did 1 course for it and I like it since it has similarities to kotlin syntax

[magic stirrup]

Database debate is over 😛

[main moon]

Shiit

[leaden zephyr]

Counter question: Why do you think rust is a bad programming language?

Can the rust people please stand up and defend it... Guys???

[magic stirrup]

They are busy rewriting every software ever written

[leaden zephyr]

[main moon]

Who? 👂🦗

[hidden glade]

Why would we care tho

Let them talk, bigger pay for rust devs

[main moon]

Rust programmers do not exit lets be honest

They all use Java or C#

[leaden zephyr]

I'm not a rust dev, just wanted to summon you guys

[main moon]

You already summoned the database people

[sterile dove]

If hytale will be heavily multithreaded how do you think most mc devs will perform?

[hidden glade]

I read in this channel that rust has similarities with kotlin uh

[prisma agate]

It's poorly designed, it takes Raii from cpp and forces it as an essential part of the language, making it restrictive to work in, while still being super complex and it aims to be fast while making it extremely difficult to write performant code, it tries to be functional but there are better langs for that (ocaml, elixir, scala) and most of it's community is full of propaganda and false claims (I only know 2 ppl who r reasonable and use rust)

[leaden zephyr]

^ here it goes

[main moon]

i ain't reading all that
i'm happy for u tho
or sorry that happened

[leaden zephyr]

Wait for real?

[hidden glade]

There are also a lot more tools and abstraction for non technical people

[hidden glade]

Ye

[leaden zephyr]

Bro this got me hahahhahaha

[prisma agate]

Very different, but both use braces, both have unit instead of void, both have option types etc

[dark cape]

💀 I love this meme

[hidden glade]

It doesn't really aim to be fast tbh. CPP is already fast

But rust is different cuz no garbage collector, and no race condition

[sterile dove]

fun add(a: Int, b: Int): Int {
fn add(a: i32, b: i32) -> i32 {

[leaden zephyr]

twins ^

[hidden glade]

yeah now write this in JavaScript

[sterile dove]

:D

[hidden glade]

omg JavaScript=rust

[leaden zephyr]

javascript is straight from hell

[dark cape]

skript my beloved: function add(a: int, b: int) :: int:

[leaden zephyr]

What is "skript"? nvm i figured out

[prisma agate]

So explain why "blazingly fast" exists, and why a few days ago I spent 4 hours debating a bozo claiming rust is faster than C

[hidden glade]

the syntax is not really the discriminating factor for modern languages that's all I'm saying

[cinder kiln]

speed is definitely one of the core things that rust aims to be, the borrow checker even allows rustc to make optimizations that other languages simply can't for example

[cinder kiln]

i think you were just being ragebaited 😭

[hidden glade]

cuz it is fast. It's just not what makes it different from its competitors

[prisma agate]

No the crazy part was he was fr, like he actually believed it, it was so funny what he said

[prisma agate]

It is fast more or less like java, probably slightly faster, I don't see java claiming it's blazingly fast

[cinder kiln]

🤷‍♀️ still just easier to ignore people like that regardless tho. speed comparisons between natively compiled PLs just do not make sense, ever

[prisma agate]

I did, I was explaining some1 else why it was faster, so he tried disproving me a bunch

[hidden glade]

speed comparisons between these languages don't make sense. The implementation matters more in this case

[prisma agate]

Well faster on avg, rust can be as fast as C (see ripgrep using concurrency and simd) but on avg rust is way slower

[hidden glade]

on avg what

it doesn't make sense

If youre saying "bad rust is slower than well written c" well ye

[prisma agate]

No, I am saying average rust is slower than avg C

[dusky plume]

feels like one guys is talking about how tasty is the apple and the other guy is saying why the apple is tasty

[hidden glade]

and rust doesn't really compete with c but CPP anyways

[prisma agate]

What cpp flavor? "Modern" cpp or sane cpp

[hidden glade]

tbh it's just that speed comparisons between languages is kind of dumb most of the time

[prisma agate]

"Modern" cpp is more or less what rust tries to be, which is a bad way of programming, bcz cpp is backwards compatibile with C, u can write C-sryle cpp

[hidden glade]

people hating on rust just find the most obscure benchmarks to justify their fear of the learning curve (not talking about u personally tho, idk about u)

[leaden zephyr]

@hidden glade and @cinder kiln nailed it comparing "average" speed between languages is meaningless because implementation quality dominates, and these debates just generate heat, not light.

[prisma agate]

I actually was a rust fan in the past, but then the more I was learning, I realized the problems of it, and returned to C

[hidden glade]

people choose rust not because it's fast but because it's safe and clean

[prisma agate]

Eh, I disagree , a big marketing thing for rust is blazingly fast

[hidden glade]

idk I feel like we're having an interesting talk, no heat on my side, i don't think on kyren's either

[leaden zephyr]

Just felt like it, then nvm

[sterile dove]

Kotlin beats both

[prisma agate]

If u want safety, why not java? If u like "clean" (very subjective on what that means and if it's even easier to program that way) then kotlin exists

[hidden glade]

yeah yeah, what I mean is, python is safe. Before rust there was no language as fast as CPP that was also safe.

if people had to choose between cpp and rust, they wouldn't choose rust because it's fast

[prisma agate]

See, so u do mention speed, I disagree with it being as fast

[sterile dove]

100% of rust devs choose it because its cool and a cult

[prisma agate]

Rust makes it really hard to write fast programs

[hidden glade]

Good luck writing an os with java tho

[wary olive]

C and follow Nasa rules

[prisma agate]

That applies just as much to rust as it does to java

[sterile dove]

also vim is a cult

[hidden glade]

well rust is used in the Linux kernel isn't it

as for java well

[prisma agate]

Some of their rules r not relevant for certain applications but overall agree

[prisma agate]

Yes and it's a bad decision, and caused plenty of drama

[wary olive]

its for embarked too

[cinder kiln]

i fail to see why you disagree with it being fast though, if you run micro-benchmarks, maybe? but in most real scenarios it really wouldn't matter if the implementation ended up being the same

[hidden glade]

Yeah good luck with java there too

[sterile dove]

ok my brain is melting:D

[prisma agate]

Other way around, it's the same speed in micro benchmarks, but slower in real codebases, due to not so much "zero cost abstractions" and the added friction of writing fast code

[hidden glade]

I think their issue is that rust markets themselves as blazingly fast when cpp and c are just as fast. The thing is, rust is fast AND brings a lot more to the table, that only slow languages had until now

[sterile dove]

try {
  talk about something else
catch(pokemon : Pokemon) {
  them all
}

[cinder kiln]

what do you mean by "fast code"

[leaden zephyr]

Comparing Java to Rust for linux kernel development is like criticizing a toaster for being bad at mowing your lawn.

[wary olive]

Compilation time i assume

[dreamy knoll]

It's 2025, language isn't a problem. Cheers!

[hidden glade]

But to achieve fast and safe code, rust has a higher learning curve compared to anything else, and I can understand how people don't like it

yeah pick whatever u like is the real lesson here 😁

[prisma agate]

Well optimized code, things like using a custom allocators, are hard to do in rust, things like not encouraging to free a bunch of small stuff when scope ends, instead of batching it, things like simd still being considered experimental in rust, concurrency being extremely difficult unless u give up to clone and arc mutex making code slower, and also clone in non concurrency situations

[wary olive]

Assembly will be for 2030 when IA break the world, we'll need to remake poor processor

[prisma agate]

This is so wrong in so many levels lol

[leaden zephyr]

No he is totally right

[dreamy knoll]

xD "JE"

[latent spindle]

Watch your language young man

[leaden zephyr]

Overall we can all agree that insert your favourite language here is pretty damn fast and beautiful.

[dreamy knoll]

Remember the proverb, "it's not the arrow, it's the archer"

[magic stirrup]

idk how spanish will be fast and beautiful, but yea i agree

[sterile dove]

So u guys are creating rust server for hytale?

[wary olive]

When archer is tired > Java

[sterile dove]

or c++ or c?

I wonder which would be fastest for it (ragebait)

[prisma agate]

Gl talking with rust using the jni

[dreamy knoll]

This sounds fun when you have resources like time and money.

[hidden glade]

And passion 👍

[sterile dove]

or if we only had money that would be fine also

[wary olive]

open source, contributions, easy done

[prisma agate]

U can keep most of the server, and only rewrite aprts of it

[dreamy knoll]

Enough passion if you love WPE and OLLY DBG

[hidden glade]

nah man look

Okay Claude, here's my codebase, rewrite it in rust

done ez (don't try this at home)

[wary olive]

proceed to compile > 800 errors

[leaden zephyr]

Santa Claude brings the presents early this year.

You're absolutely right!

[wheat vale]

and screws with your code 👀

[leaden zephyr]

What? AI never makes mistakes, must be you.

I only use tab completion here and there, i write the majority of code myself

[wary olive]

No internet and bro is cooked

[wheat vale]

some people just have to be left behind

[hidden glade]

if you don't run your own 240B llm locally in 2025 you don't deserve to run hytale

[wheat vale]

damn i guess i dont buy hytale then :c

[cinder kiln]

i perfectly understand the criticisms of concurrent rust, it's very alien at first but in most cases it's perfectly fine to just Arc w/ some std concurrency primitive like rwlock/mutex. if that small overhead is genuinely too large for your application, then you're probably writing your own concurrency primitives in any language you write it in imo. regardless, it can be a bit difficult to understand for a while.

by simd being "experimental" I'm assuming you mean the portable_std nightly feature? if you really wanted to you could use the unsafe x86 AVX/SSE intrinsics functions directly (or the ARM/RISC-V/etc counterparts). LLVM auto-vectorizes most code "good enough", its especially good at vectorizing iterator based code ime, but it isn't perfect and you could totally out optimize the compiler in many cases.

imo outside of niche situations like, for example, ffmpeg, most of these things just dont really matter and if you need those insane optimizations then you're 100% smart enough to do them in either language, though i can see the argument for writing those optimizations being easier in C/C++

good god i couldnt have summed that up any shorter, could i?

[leaden zephyr]

Damn holy father of anything that is loved

[hidden glade]

holy yap

[cinder kiln]

aaand i forgot to reply to his message.. 😭. cc @prisma agate

[leaden zephyr]

Where is @main moon when we need him.. Fine i do it myself:
i ain't reading all that
i'm happy for u tho
or sorry that happened

[wheat vale]

as go dev and part of the kind of memeish beef that go and rust devs have
i am obligated to now tell you that go is easier to write and beside some edgecases as fast 👀

we are now supposed to fight to death
or both make fun of python

[leaden zephyr]

Ready? FIGHT

[wary olive]

C is better than everything you can say

[wheat vale]

i hoped someone would bring that xD

[wary olive]

x)

[wheat vale]

thank you for understanding the assignment

[leaden zephyr]

Zig is aswktually the bescht

[hidden glade]

here we go again 😂😂

[cinder kiln]

honestly go good

[wheat vale]

and that peops how you break a developer themed channel in a single message 👀

[leaden zephyr]

Why did nobody told me that someone crazy already did a minecraft server completely written in rust 😮
ferrumc on github... Man people are crazy these days

[wheat vale]

at the end we all agree scratch is the best and fasted language ever made!

and npm is the cleanest environment ever!
no dependency hell every thing just works
updates are easy no breaking changes 👀 just perfect

[hidden glade]

I can't paste link here but there's a site that references every new rust server

[leaden zephyr]

You spelled visual basic wrong

[cinder kiln]

i just tried to send the same thing lmao

[hidden glade]

dayssincelastrustmcserver

com (don't ban me)

[wheat vale]

ngl i could be shot for that hot of a take
and the person doing it would have every right to

[leaden zephyr]

(at) moderator

Bro what have i witnessed right now, that's crazy HOW MANY rust based servers are there wth

[wheat vale]

rust devs are a bit.. obsessed

[leaden zephyr]

I see that now

[wheat vale]

they are the programmers arch users

[leaden zephyr]

Hey honestly respect to those people even when i do not like rust at any means... Respect!

[wheat vale]

oh yea for sure

[eternal rune]

Sponge plugins work in singleplayer

[prisma agate]

Simd is not niche, it's even used by ripgrep iirc, and yes it's possible to optimize in rust,y argument is it's really annoying to do it, so most people don't, and even basic stuff like arenas is hard, rust is overly restrictive, partially due to wanting to be a faster form of GC where u trade dx for perf, which doesn't make sense to me
If u want speed, use a proper fast lang like C, Zig or non "modern" cpp, if u r fine with "good enough" then java/go r plenty fast

For a better explanation of why performance matters and isn't niche, see "performance excuses debunked" by case muratori

[leaden zephyr]

Casey is based

[prisma agate]

Exactly my point, totally agree

[prisma agate]

He rescued me from rust

[wheat vale]

here we go

[leaden zephyr]

@wheat vale ... You had the chance to write: Ah sh.... Here we go again

[wheat vale]

yea i just noticed.. i am sorry for my failure 🥹

[prisma agate]

There are as many incomplete Minecraft rust rewrites as js frameworks, there is also one called hyprerion

[leaden zephyr]

^ Ok that's a little bit over dramatic don't you think?

[wheat vale]

but you can say that for every language
even for js

[prisma agate]

Ye idk why ppl like rewriting mc

[wheat vale]

why not?

[prisma agate]

There is an entire repo full of projects for that

[wheat vale]

and?

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah i think theres sort of a misunderstanding here overall

[prisma agate]

I mean it's fine, but I doubt any will be complete

[wheat vale]

most projects in private software development endup shelved at somepoint

[sterile dove]

Important thing is enjoying what u do:) and learning

[prisma agate]

It's really hard to do rewrites bcz u chase an ever increasing target

[wheat vale]

i mean for most its a hobby
people should be allowed to do their hobby as they like

[leaden zephyr]

I think my toaster/lawn mower analogy nailed it before.

[hidden glade]

I mean, the same goes for mods

it's hard but it's hella fun

[cinder kiln]

i just dont think you know enough about rust and its ecosystem, honestly. i'm genuinely not trying to be mean and i'm sorry if it comes off as such, i think your argument (specifically: "rust is always/on average slower than c in large projects"? is that right?) fundamentally comes from a place of not knowing the language well enough. which is fine! nobody knows everything, and nobody likes everything either.
tl;dr: i just think your stance is too rigid, personally

also, yes i know of casey and i agree with a lot of what he says, i've been following him for years, he's an absolutely amazing teacher and a big reason of why i had an easier time getting into C++ when i was younger:D

[prisma agate]

It's very different, u only need to keep up with breaking changes, u don't need to keep implementing more and more features

[wheat vale]

i mean figuring out how stuff works is part of the way
seeing how things you want to add in a mod start working is fun
seeing how world gen in your port works triggers the same

[hidden glade]

The mc protocol doesn't move that much does it

[wheat vale]

you're saying that you are not maintaining projects?
bc ofcourse you are continuing to update mods there is no final release

[prisma agate]

Like mc adds a new biome, now u need to add that too to ur impl, it's not just the protocol

Mods will most likely work, with the exception of maybe needing to rename some meghods

This is especially true for plugins, spigot rarely breaks stuff

[wheat vale]

yea i dont think i will agree with you on your view of how programming works

your takes are just weird

[cinder kiln]

for a lot of them it's just because its fun and the game was a big part of their childhood i bet, at one point i wrote a minecraft server in C99 for that reason and some years ago wrote a minecraft client from scratch with a group of people (thou that was a paid gig :p)

[prisma agate]

I mean that I understand, but rewriting the server to replace the existing one I don't

[hidden glade]

Oh yeah ofc, idk if that's the point tho, not sure if those servers replicate EXACTLY the official Minecraft server

[leaden zephyr]

Casey's great, but agreeing with his performance takes doesn't mean Rust is bad or that he needed to "rescued you" from it. You have strong preferences and push them regardless of what others think, atleast it feels like it. @prisma agate(maybe there is a language barrier, i'm not fluent and maybe i got something wrong here)

[prisma agate]

In most of the readmes I read, the goal is to be compatible

[wheat vale]

i dont even know of a rewrite that ever actually said it would seek out to replace the official server

[cinder kiln]

some of them have niche usecases such as incredibly lightweight minigame servers, a more complete example of this is something like the minestom project which is Java. a good rust example of that would be valence

[hidden glade]

I see

[prisma agate]

Minestorm is decently complete iirc?

[hidden glade]

Honestly idk what they want to accomplish themselves, but I totally get the appeal of rewriting something hard in a new language, it's fun and it's a really great way to learn

[prisma agate]

If it's for learning or for fun it's fine

[cinder kiln]

its quite usable, yeah! it's just not vanilla gameplay compatible which is fine because it doesnt care to be

[wheat vale]

i have a dejavu

why do dev channels everywhere allways endup in a big war
are we that messed up?

[leaden zephyr]

I might be the wrong guy for this type of discussion. I make some food, thanks for the pep talk.
Cheers

[hidden glade]

Would you call that a war? From my POV, it's just a conversation, haha. I may be too versed in conflictuality

[wheat vale]

i mean its quite heated

[hidden glade]

I'm not under the same impression but it's probably because English is not my native language

Get ready for 2 walls

[cinder kiln]

from my pov I don't see it being heated tbh, but I also try to read as little into that sort of thing as possible and give everyone a lot of benefit of doubt which maybe shifts that view? I dunno :p

[leaden zephyr]

Would be funny if he just drops a 👍 now and there will be no text wall at all

[wheat vale]

it really would be xD

[fierce fulcrum]

What's happening here x) ?

[wheat vale]

honeslty i dont think anyone here knows at this point

[leaden zephyr]

^

[sterile dove]

So Ill ask this every day
Has anyone tried making guis yet for hytale/learning noesisstudio?

[wheat vale]

the game isnt even out yet xD

[fierce fulcrum]

i don't if they're gonna expose this api like this ?

[sterile dove]

doesnt matter

[wheat vale]

it does

[leaden zephyr]

I do not think we will using that, they will maybe abstract it and give us a way with files to create interfaces or with code.

[sterile dove]

I think they will load noesis files and they said they are building java abstraction layer on top of the noesis since they use c# bindings

so would be weird if they on top of that created their own noesis gui builder

wouldnt make sense

[prisma agate]

Well it's not just perf, it's mostly a mentality of first principles, of doing simple straightforward things, this perspective really opened my mind and made me realize a bunch of stuff that made me a better dev (ex semantic compression, which doesn't have to docwith perf)

The rescued from rust was a joke, I already was more into zig than rust at that time, but I am glad that I learned things that made me realize a better way to make stuff (which rust conflicted with)

I do believe Rust has poor design choices, I don't mind people using it, I have a few friends that do, but I do have a problem with the propaganda/misconceptions of the loud rust adovacates

I am developing my own lang currently, so I am obviously very opinionated, I could probably rant a decent amount on most langs, including C
But I am not trying to be rude, if this is what it comes off as

[dapper apex]

yo

[prisma agate]

Devs have strong options, I think it's good to debate and see others perspective/counter arguments

[sterile dove]

Noesis uses xaml and they got .noesis for noesis projects, they got c# bindings on the client,
They will create java layer so servers can send stuff to the interfaces, and i suspect that we can send noesis gui to the client like other assets,

Would be weird if they also created api so we could build guis only with code.
Would be really painful and a lot of work for them anyways

[fierce fulcrum]

Because most of them are nerds and have nearly no social life so the only community they're part off is those that corresponds to the technologies they use (language / framework) and so they defend them at all cost to feel the "being part of a community thing" ?
(half a joke)

[leaden zephyr]

Yeah see so i just misunderstood something and it was my fault actually.
Good that we cleared things up. I do not have any problem with that or with your views.

Thanks for your time and clarification. I will give it a listen what casey said, i already like him because of primeagen.
💙

[storm glen]

The API will be abstracted. We won't be using the SDK.

We only know what the backend looks like, we dont know the markup setup for the UI stylized besides it will be XAML

[prisma agate]

Ye no beef, also prime is how I discovered him too

[sterile dove]

yes thats what i ment

[prisma agate]

Why does everyone use XML for UI : 💀

[fierce fulcrum]

cause html so it feels similar to people

[sterile dove]

what should they use?

[prisma agate]

Probably lua

Really simple to embed, decently known due to Roblox (or nvim) and no need for Jsx style stuff, u can write loops and stufceasy

[fierce fulcrum]

It makes no sense
the whole idea of jsx/xml/html style is to understand the imbrication of elements and to represent the document tree

It's not impossible to do otherwise but this is the reason why some engines enable the use a html / css system for guis

nvim is made for people wanting to suffer it's not really an argument

[willow acorn]

web tech for ui / overlays should always be an option

[prisma agate]

Jsx is the idea of embedding code in a UI tree, lua allows exactly for that, it has tables which r like JSON/xml which u can use to encode ur UI tree, but it is also a programming language so u can just use variables and loops and functions inside the table

And unlike Jsx, lua is just lua, it's not a weird amalgamation of Js and html

Afaik, the reason non-web apps use html/css/js is mostly for familiarity and allowing ppl to reuse existing stuff

[prisma agate]

Nvim is made for people who want simplicity, and to not wait 30s to launch their editor, but I don't see how this relates to lua (except for it uses lua, bcz it was a good choice for allowing users to edit UI, but so did Roblox)

Also wezterm terminal uses lua, it's just really good for configuration stuff

[fierce fulcrum]

When I start vscode it takes 5 seconds
The argument of time is really not the right one

[vast dawn]

laughs in zed

[fierce fulcrum]

Jsx is not an amalgam it's really just a macro to write functions that returns html node as node ...

For the rest the point you make for lua is the same I can make for jsx and web dev techs
Except jsx and web dev is much more widely used and supported

[prisma agate]

5s is crazy long lol, my nvim is fully loaded with syntax highlighting and LSP in half a second

[fierce fulcrum]

I don't restart my editor every hour so 5s for an hour seems like a good time

[prisma agate]

It's slow for other stuff as well but ok

[fierce fulcrum]

What ?

Because really I use both and I don't see the difference

[prisma agate]

It feels sluggish, idk how to explain it, u have to use a fast editor like zed or nvim

[fierce fulcrum]

Your claim is just you trying to prove you're right but really the time argument is not the right one

You could have said the configuration level or the ability to use the same tools for everything and I wouldn't be able to say something but really time is not the point

[fierce fulcrum]

I used nvim for some projects to try them and it worked well but it's really not worth it for MY usage

[prisma agate]

Sure, it's very hardcore and not for everyone

[fierce fulcrum]

Why would you link that to the skill level ...
It's not because you use vim or zed you're a good guy smart guy and dev it's just a tool that needs to correspond the usage.

In my case it doesn't that's all

[fierce fulcrum]

Really you prove this joke so well ...

[prisma agate]

Hardcore doesn't mean skill level, at least that's not what I meant

[leaden zephyr]

What do you mean by "hardcore" then? Just curious

[prisma agate]

Niche is a better word maybe

Like it's not for everyone

[fierce fulcrum]

If you use 'and' it means it's two separate ideas
You can't say after that the second one is the same as the first 😅

[prisma agate]

It is, it doesn't make it bad, but probably makes it slightly annoying (due to keyword conflicts and stuff) than if it was cohesive

Also although I personally think web tech is not great, it'd make sense if Hytale was using that, but if they go for a custom XML config, I think lua would be better, but that's my opinion

[fierce fulcrum]

But really the Syntax and Semantic of jsx is reallllly clear and well defined there is no dirty stuff there x)

[rough viper]

Kyren have you tried helix? that is my prefered editor

[prisma agate]

And I think they did plan to use lua, for the new engine

[prisma agate]

Keyword conflicts r the main thing, like class and classname

[fierce fulcrum]

That's a common language problem more so in js actually
That's not a ''jsx problem'' at all

[devout cipher]

evening all

[fierce fulcrum]

G' evening

[fierce fulcrum]

Dw I'm in the bus and having fun messing with someone I won't start another war today 😂

[prisma agate]

I have heard of it, but it's not customizable enough for my needs, for example I wrote a hotkey that opens a vsplit, or switches to a vsplit, etc and runs my code and shows the output with some decently complex logic where u do conditions/loops
Idk if helix can do that

Also I'd never switch bcz I already have a thing that works, unless it has a massive advantage I see no point dedicating the time to do the switch

[viscid wren]

Simon said he'd write up a blog post at some point about server and mod monetization, I wonder if that means he'll address if there will be a server donation EULA

[clear wedge]

Can someone answer my question? Is the server browser already available on the 1st?

[viscid wren]

Don't think we've got much info on that

[frozen oracle]

No it will not be - Simon confirmed this in a previous video, it will be direct IP for now (that's why we're making a Hytale server list! 🙂 )

[scarlet spoke]

Another? x)

[devout cipher]

peep my bio 👀

[viscid wren]

When they do eventually release a server browser, I wonder how many servers will be on it, and how it will impact multiplayer as a whole

[clear wedge]

I made one just for Brazil, lol, we're in this together!

[devout cipher]

😄 saw quite a few already

[strange rune]

vambora

[clear wedge]

Depois se quiser ver é só mandar um portalhytale combr

[frozen oracle]

there's definitely a few yeah - just depends on how long it'll take until a fully fledged server browser comes out in game

[keen pecan]

Do you guys think that in Hytale plugins are gonne be usefull the same as Minecraft?

Or since modding is gonna be easier, peoples would go for that way

[fierce fulcrum]

I belive they use modding for assets and configuring them, for now plugins is still the way to go to add mechanics from what I understand

[woeful depot]

True

[keen pecan]

Good to know, thanks for the answer

[frozen oracle]

I definitely think they will be - plugins are customisation for servers, and every server wants to be unique so they will be in abundance!

[bitter nacelle]

"same" as minecraft is unknown until we see how Hytale actually plays and what utility there is to server owner/developers. What's needed will come about naturally, though prolly at a slower pace until people are able to share information and figure out what works and what doesn't. Abundance will come with time.

[spiral marten]

Depending on what hytale gives me access to it'll be different, for the first few plugins (at least for me) I will clones of Minecraft ones while I figure out the api, but over time it'll get its own game modes not seen on the craft depending on how much they give you access to

Like sky block, factions, stuff like that in the beginning

[viscid wren]

I think the core mechanics of Hytale too will open up the possibility of new game modes, especially combat

[true socket]

i wonder how long its gonna take before people reverse engineer the client enough to start making cheats, hopefully it takes a while

[viscid wren]

I hope it will take a while as well. But I do believe it will be harder to achieve that, with Minecraft it seemed rather easy

[prisma agate]

Probably a few days

[true socket]

it will be a LOT harder to develop cheats for than minecraft, but there will also be a much bigger community of people trying to develop them

[prisma agate]

Client is in java, and java bytecode is high lvl, so it'd be easy to reverse (unlike native clients, which use raw machine code)

[prisma agate]

Why harder?

[true socket]

no it isnt

the client is in C# which will be compiled AOT to native, only the server is in java

[prisma agate]

Ohhh, was that always the case? Seems like a weird choice

[true socket]

yes the original engine client was always C#, though the (failed) rewrite would have used C++

[prisma agate]

In that case reversing would take a while, but if we have server source, it'd be easy to hijack the protocol, so u don't need the client

[true socket]

i was also wondering if people would try to make a local proxy with cheats built in

[devout cipher]

deffo

[prisma agate]

Ye that seems easier

[true socket]

the fact that its supposed to be very easy to mod the client from the server should make that quite powerful

do we know if hytale will have global rules/punishments or if its fully just up to server admins (ofc u can server ban too)

[prisma agate]

Writing a client that sends extra stuff like flying or whatever is easier

[true socket]

do we know if the server will run movement simulations?

[prisma agate]

I'd assume it'd estimate

[true socket]

i know there will eventually be a proper central anticheat but idk if there will be on release

[prisma agate]

Otherwise servers would need too much compute, it makes sense if players run simulations and server just verifies

[true socket]

i also really hope that a lot of effort is put into account security (like forcing 2fa and stuff)

bad account security is the only reason why minecraft server blatant cheating is a thing

its so easy to get hacked alts in minecraft because mojang doesnt really care, hopefully hytale does better

id imagine that the team has had to deal with enough of this on hypixel with minecraft that they will try to do it better on hytale

$20 accounts should be enough to discourage blatant cheating

closet cheating is a much bigger issue

[prisma agate]

Minecraft is also 20usd

[trim knot]

release date Hytale?

[true socket]

yeah but the cheaters arent paying $20

[spiral marten]

What engine is hytale on depending on that you can get a good idea of how the cheats will be

[true socket]

custom from scratch in C# (though compiled AOT to native)

[true socket]

not yet known (end of this week maybe)

[frozen oracle]

cant wait for hytale hack clients

[dusky plume]

banhammer

[keen pecan]

I think that they will be focusing on externals, very different from minecraft. They can just work with addresses

No need to reverse directly the code

[true socket]

how long would it take to figure out the relavent addresses?

[keen pecan]

Well, it depends from how the code is structured, and if they are gonna add some protection to it

It could take 1 day or 1 month, but it's inevitable

Also because i'm not sure if it will have any sort of anticheat built in

[cinder kiln]

If someone really wanted to make a hytale cheat and they have experience it'd take at most a few hours to get something working tbh

[keen pecan]

And usually, anticheat bypass are harder to make than the cheat itself

[true socket]

im not sure at all but im guessing that on launch there will no none or very minimal client anticheat

[fringe ore]

So because riot team tried to rewrite the entire engine in cpp, and then realized it will cost too much to continue for cross platform competition.... will we ever get cross platform?

[true socket]

we dont know

cross platform is still possible but we dont know if theyll do it, its a lot of work to implement

[fringe ore]

Yeah

[true socket]

definately not at launch

[fringe ore]

Oh course, I was jjst thinking future

I do plugins and addons for bedrock edition, and sorta bridged over to paper plugins. But might be interested jumping the gun lol

For hytale

We can sell the plugins and such no block there in hytale?

[true socket]

yeah but there wont be any sort of official marketplace yet, i assume stuff like mcmarket/bbb but for hytale will appear

[neon tree]

They mentioned cursed as a possible platform, what would be good alternative

Think about that many hosting providers have there own library of plugins mostly using api or a closed of system, so it will be a search of finding the plugins you want.

Personally gonna write everything myself, always ends up been the right call for a good experience overall

[scarlet atlas]

I believe the main hosts usually tie in to existing platforms like Modrinth, CurseForge etc.

[little shore]

Where would you hire a dev

[granite saffron]

will hytale mods not be available on cursesforge

[agile elm]

will we be able to load our own .xaml UIs using hytales noesisgui API?

[agile elm]

is it true that servers will run on only 1 cpu core?

[karmic night]

Yes

[karmic night]

I assume no, idk where you've heard this but that would be insane

[agile elm]

just watched a video that mentioned it and it was about the live Q&A so I assumed it was true

[hollow musk]

even if, server source code will be published, you could just fork it

But i think it will be not

[agile elm]

yeah that would also work ig

[white thorn]

Anyone wanna make a party to do an SMP to play the game day 1?

[viscid wren]

Is single core CPU code that limiting? Isn't Minecraft's the same?

[upbeat storm]

Minecraft isn't really single threaded and hasn't been for years the whole single core thing is practically an myth at this point

People give Mojang a hard time for a lot of stuff but they've actually been doing a pretty decent job reworking their backend

Especially given it has 16 years of tech debt

[midnight oar]

i wouldn't call single-threaded architecture tech debt, it has advantages

[upbeat storm]

When I said tech debt I didn't just mean how many threads the game uses

[midnight oar]

i thought about main game loop, i think many people oversee that if they decide to go with multithreaded game loop, modding may become exponentially more difficult

[viscid wren]

Interesting, if hytale is single threaded is that actually something to have an issue with? Or will it be fine? I've done very little multi threaded programming so im not sure

[upbeat storm]

The game will probably be both single and multithreaded depending on the content

I suspect a large majority of mods/plugins will be fine operating mostly on a single thread

[viscid wren]

Neat

[formal burrow]

Hey guys if you are in the US, I found out that Paypal is offering a 20% cashback deal on up to $1250 in purchases or $250. That means if you want to buy an annual plan for a server for example, and it's going to cost $500, you get $100 back. The catch is that it's pay in 4 installments, and they give you the 20% back after you pay over time. I saw on Reddit that if you want to get a Valve Frame or a Steam Deck you can even use the pay in 4 trick to top up a steam wallet for when the Frame comes out. You only get ONE of these 20% cashback purchases per person and they just capped it today. If there are any expenses you think you'll have to pay regarding Hytale, like for servers or just buying equipment, look into it.

[brittle estuary]

Cheers! Appreciate the heads up

[formal burrow]

Yeah the catch is that it'll affect your credit score but there is NO INTEREST. I don't have a credit score and just got a secured card like 2 months ago.

[brittle estuary]

Yeah, I don't use credit

[formal burrow]

Pay in 4 requires a soft credit check as I read the fine print, but, there are people here who might want to rent equipment... That 20% cashback is unheard of. Paypal scrambled to nerf it today cause people were buying up tons of stuff

[brittle estuary]

lol yeah, makes sense

Just buy assets like gold and make a quick 20% return

[shy crest]

I had to have a double take on that message since it just felt like one of those scam messages. 😂

[formal burrow]

I would have literally shared a Reddit link or screenshots but you can't share links. And to the moderators, look it up on Reddit, it's an actual thing 😂

[formal burrow]

Yeah I read my own message and I got that vibe but it's real according to Reddit

[formal burrow]

Now I see why Paypal capped it to one per person... 😂 I just looked it up, yeah people can buy gold with paypal

[brittle estuary]

:P

[formal burrow]

I have been talking about deals a lot in this channel for the past few days 😂

I mentioned AdvinServers had a 24GB of RAM, 3 core Ryzen 9950X in stock for rent less than 12 hours ago... it got snatched by someone very quickly

[brittle estuary]

You seem knowledgeable about servers and hosting solutions. Do you have specific companies you recommend using for hosting something like a multiplayer Hytale server?

I was just planning to use something like Digital Ocean

[formal burrow]

Do not use DigitalOcean... It's good for web hosting but do not use it for game hosting as it's meant for scaling web-based solutions and databases. If you're in America, use OVH, if you're in Europe, use Hetzner. Look at my conversation in my forwarded here and you'll see me talk about it

[brittle estuary]

Ah, cheers! I appreciate the advice

[formal burrow]

Oracle has a 24GB of RAM free server plan but someone in this server corrected me by telling me they are NEVER in stock, on top of that you are required to hand over a credit card

[formal burrow]

I'd advise using OVH or AdvinServers. Kansas City I heard is good. They have a 4GB of RAM, 128GB NVME, 1 core 9950X Ryzen in stock right now, literally yesterday when I was talking here, they had an 8GB, a 16GB, and a 24GB of RAM in stock then they got bought up

[sour sierra]

people run scripts for months trying to find when one is available, and the people who do get it just run scripts to make sure its always active in some way so they get to keep it (it shuts down after like 1 month or so of inactivity)

[formal burrow]

CrunchBits also has a VERY good reputation but they are never in stock. They sell for example $6/month 2TB servers that you can use for personal use. They were bought out 6 months ago and since I have never seen them in stock. They have servers located in PA and in Washington but they are always taken

[formal burrow]

Since it sounds like you're American, just go with OVH or Advin.

[brittle estuary]

Cheers! will do

Thanks again

[formal burrow]

Make sure to use the USA version of OVH when going with them, as there are two separate companies.

They charge $4.20/month for an 8GB of RAM, 4 vCore, 75GB SSD NVME VPS, no caps on bandwidth. The Virginia servers are out of stock, but the ones in California aren't.

I have no idea though what the CPUs are

[latent spindle]

Guys when factions revival on Hytale

[formal burrow]

When someone vibecodes a faction plugin

in other words.. a few days after release

[latent spindle]

In other words its dead plugin 😢

Im hoping plugins can have real UI not like in minecraft where its just a double chest

[hollow musk]

ofc they will
main modding focus of hytale is based on server side content

[fringe ore]

So true lolol

I already planning on doing landclaim

[past shale]

Is there an estimate on how powerful hardware will need to be to host Hytale servers?

[west elk]

no, but they will tell us on friday

[lusty topaz]

Probably not that powerful

[viscid wren]

god I can't wait for this game, I hope my server can scale well. I think I learned some ideas from when I used to run MC servers, and learned from my mistakes

[mystic bone]

I'm planning on making something but not sure what yet have been out of the loop content wise for what's in the game tbh. But I mod for other games. If anyone has any interesting requests I might pick it up

[brittle estuary]

You can basically make anything you want with Hytale. For modding it's more of a game engine than the way Minecraft makes you hack around the singleplayer version of the game.

[clear wedge]

Go with the AMD Ryzen 9 regardless of anything else

[viscid wren]

💀

Did they say there would be a default permissions system for servers? I thought I heard something about that but I can't remember if that's what I heard

[compact crypt]

I would be surprised if there's no default permissions system

[clear wedge]

I don't remember, probably someone who knows something about it, I think I saw something about it vaguely too, but I don't have zero recollections

[viscid wren]

Could have been something they said they wanted to do but wont be released on day 1

guess I could whip up a basic permissions system anyways

[compact crypt]

Hmm you're right

[compact crypt]

There's plenty of time anyways

[zenith mist]

This gamemode would be impossible in hytale Redstone doesn't exist

[compact crypt]

1 entire month at least to get everything prepared for the release

[viscid wren]

Im trying to release a factions server day 1

[compact crypt]

As stated in the announcement, this game will release in 2026

[viscid wren]

Umm why? We can custom code a TNT cannon somehow :trole:

[zenith mist]

It litterally cant work lmao your missing all the stuff that factions is

You'd be adding copy righted stuff into hytale

That mode relies on stuff that would cause legal issues to implement

[viscid wren]

There are multiple factions plugins out there for minecraft having a "factions" server doesnt violate copyright

[zenith mist]

No having a carbon copy of the Redstone mechanics of Minecraft

Is

[compact crypt]

Who is the legal owner of the factions idea?

If there's none, how can it be copy righted?

[viscid wren]

Oh, I mean we can figure out a replacement for TNT cannons somehow

[formal burrow]

who cares: no one has sued anyone for using factions in their server or recreating the plugin

[zenith mist]

Nobody its the stuff you need to make the game possible. Restone is a Minecraft specific thing lmao

[viscid wren]

TheCampingRusher /s

[fast oasis]

yeah

[formal burrow]

bro that is from over 12 hours ago how did you see that

[fast oasis]

Uh notifications?

[zenith mist]

You'd need to recreate a copy righted idea to make factions work

[formal burrow]

oh lol I didn't realize I replied to you

[zenith mist]

Not the mode its the Redstone

[viscid wren]

A whole new game is coming out and people want Skyblock 😭

[viscid wren]

Are there any parts of factions that require redstone other than a TNT cannon

[fast oasis]

Skyblock is just so good

[formal burrow]

The discussion earlier was me mentioning that Hypixel won't likely port Skyblock over to Hytale to prevent themselves from destroying their entire ecosystem

[mossy minnow]

How will one be able to make a server for friends or a community, is there already some incite how itll work?

[viscid wren]

Ah

[zenith mist]

Battlefield 6 almost got sued for making cod maps in there I game creator, by Microsoft, imagine remaking Redstone lol

[formal burrow]

People in Hypixel Skyblock back when Hytale was first announced wanted it themselves. They have disclosed they haven't even began to port anything from Hypixel Network over to Hytale

[viscid wren]

No server code or files have been released yet, all we pretty much know is that the server runs in Java and plugins will be .jar files

[brittle estuary]

Just call it Bluestone

[ebon wedge]

legal loopholes are always solid

[zenith mist]

Yeah the entire mode revolves around tnt raiding

The servers without it practically died

[viscid wren]

So the answer is no?

[compact crypt]

I don't think the mechanic of having wires and electrical components is copyrighted by microsoft
Isn't it just simple enough to not make it directly like redstone?

[formal burrow]

You've never heard of HCF before then.. 😂

[viscid wren]

Its the only redstone requirement for factions

[formal burrow]

There was an HCF server that made $250k in one month. HCF makes no use of TNT if I recall

[zenith mist]

Vipermc and veltpvp

[viscid wren]

Making TNT in a block game isnt copyrighted its fine

[zenith mist]

I've been around the block

[mossy minnow]

alright do you know of maybe a server host thatll be able to host when it comes out?

[compact crypt]

You get it buddy

[zenith mist]

Gl getting the same thing xd

Talking as a cannoneer and a server owner of a 1600 pop factions server

Cannoneers hate change

The 1.8 to 1.21 made tons of the community quit

[viscid wren]

Idk which ones will support it day one if any, but any minecraft hosting providers should be able to eventually support it. Could probably get a pterodactyl egg to support it day one if its just a .jar file

[zenith mist]

So i hate to say this but ik how the mode is xd

[viscid wren]

Then they wont buy hytale because it will be a different game

Also there's so many ways to think of unique ideas instead of how TNT cannons worked in minecraft

[sinful zodiac]

I need to know about this

Server plugins, what language? Similar to Minecraft? Or what

I need to create still a brainrot in hytale JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA

[fiery monolith]

Ewww

[viscid wren]

😐

[viscid wren]

Java .jar files

[fiery monolith]

Keep that in Roblox

[sinful zodiac]

SADKSAJDJSAKDJSAKKAS is a prank

[sinful zodiac]

nashe i like it

Is it a mistake to think that Hytale servers won't kill Minecraft servers? Or not? I think that when the Hytale bubble bursts, everything will settle down.

yep im using the traslator xd

[viscid wren]

I think hytale has the potential to coexist long term with minecraft, but minecraft is the best selling game of all time, so its going to be hard to really cause its servers to die down

[latent spindle]

Why not just rename redstone to whitedust easy

[sinful zodiac]

You're right, I'm excited for this stage

Now I hope I get a job soon so I can buy a PC to play Hytale. (LOL)

[viscid wren]

I will become the first factions server and become very popular (Nobody else has this idea)

[fiery monolith]

Good luck, ram is hella expensive right now

[viscid wren]

Horrible time to be wanting to build a server 😭

[sinful zodiac]

I hope you succeed. I'll try to keep an eye on your progress.

[fiery monolith]

Not really, all you need is a VPS or dedicated server

[sinful zodiac]

now i hate open ai and all ai companys

[fiery monolith]

Yeah OpenAI really messed it up for everyone else

[sinful zodiac]

I don't know, but I still love Minecraft. I still have plans to create my own Minecraft servers. I'm going to try creating one in Hytale, and if I like it, I'll do both.

[fiery monolith]

I wonder if Hytale is going to be open source server files? I already have plans to create a big server

[sinful zodiac]

Yeah... but what can we do? We're only human. We'll either eat our potatoes or burn down Sam Altman's house.

[sinful zodiac]

I think Simon is clear that it's the right decision to make them open source.

Simon is also a creator

[fiery monolith]

I already have a Minecraft server well multiple servers

[sinful zodiac]

how nice

what are they

[fiery monolith]

I wonder if the EULA is going to be the same

[zenith mist]

Actually im buddies with most of the experts on this subject haha

[sinful zodiac]

I've always regretted never making a truly professional server. I'm 19 now, and in previous years I made servers, but since they were made by people without much skill, they were decent but never truly high quality.

[zenith mist]

You don't know the complex math thst goes into making those cannons work

[sinful zodiac]

I wouldn't mind, to be honest.

[zenith mist]

Now imagine it with new phyisics

[sinful zodiac]

I think the Minecraft EULA is pretty good

[zenith mist]

Xd

[viscid wren]

Have you ever played rust?

[sinful zodiac]

well

[zenith mist]

Thsts not factions

[viscid wren]

The minecraft EULA sucks

[undone creek]

what faction server has a pop of 1600 now a days lmao

[sinful zodiac]

bye

[zenith mist]

Different type of game

[viscid wren]

TheArchon in (Im pretending its 2014)

[viscid wren]

Buddy hytale is a whole different game 💀

There can be other ways to raid bases

[undone creek]

faction is a dead game man i mean MAYBE saico has a good pop but i doubt it

[zenith mist]

There is a few xd

[viscid wren]

Minecraft servers really died off after the 2014 EULA changes

[undone creek]

you gotta be lying lmao faction is dead man

[zenith mist]

But most are kinda lifeless

[undone creek]

okay ya so i was right lol

[latent spindle]

I feel like mmorpg type servers will be abundant in Hytale

[zenith mist]

Im not xd the most popular one is bout to get eula terminated

[undone creek]

whats the name

[zenith mist]

Complex

[undone creek]

okay here hte thing

compelx isnt a faction server lol its a network with multiple games

[zenith mist]

Xd its a factions server

Its what everyone plays for

[undone creek]

i mean not really its a network with multiple games lol

[viscid wren]

Googled and found some server called "Complex gaming" has 6k people on rn, advertises one of their servers as factions but idk I dont play any server

I just like it back in the day and have a lot of unique ideas that is limiting with minecraft

[undone creek]

when i think of a faciton server im thinking of a server thats only factions for the most part lol

[zenith mist]

Complex items used to sell for 1000s of doallars

[latent spindle]

Guys any mmorpg faction server

[zenith mist]

Which is why ita popular, and getting terminated

[latent spindle]

Any server similar to albion type 😂

[fiery monolith]

Towny, Anarchy and game mode servers are the top

[zenith mist]

Mmorpgs haven't seen any that are massive:/

But in also not from those modes

[viscid wren]

Yall ever play on TheArchon back in the day

[zenith mist]

Yeah

[undone creek]

if wer're being techical about it, complex has pixelmon, tekkit and FTB and a vnailla server loland with that is prison skyblock and factions lmao

[viscid wren]

Loved t hat server

[zenith mist]

Ah the webs..

[latent spindle]

Ofc cause minecraft is not mmorpg focused game but Hytale is RPG so its easier to find mmorpg server

[undone creek]

wynncraft?...

[zenith mist]

The creation of web busts..

[undone creek]

like wym lol wynncraft is huge

[zenith mist]

I also said I don't play mmo servers thar much xd

Id rather boot up an actual mmo like black desert online

[latent spindle]

If you look at hytale server list most are mmorpg servers

[viscid wren]

Why are we even arguing, hytale will revive old games, cause others to die out, and spark innovation for ones never seen before

[zenith mist]

Yeah factions as a mode will adapt and change as a whole

My point is that the old way of the game is killing it, it was created by people who don't even play it anymore

Raiding and stuff will change cus two entirely different games

[undone creek]

i dont think factions will be good in hytale

i dont even think it should exist in hytale

[zenith mist]

Its a old gamemode full of toxicity

[viscid wren]

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of hytale to be a game that anyone can make whatever server or mods they want

[zenith mist]

Well they can make it but xd

[undone creek]

yes thats my point same with hcf that shouldnt exist in hytale

[zenith mist]

I know how cannons work and people hate server hoping 🙃

You do not know the pain of redesigning physics math for each server

That's why factions won't work cus the people who already do this ain't bout to deal with a new game entirely lmao

It would be a complete re-write of the gamemode

[hollow sentinel]

HCF could be remade into something really special

[undone creek]

it was a gamemode that been dead since 2019 maybe earlier lmao

[zenith mist]

Yeah xd

[undone creek]

HCF is a toxicity hole that no one want to deal with lmao

[hollow sentinel]

It doesn't even need to be called HCF

[latent spindle]

Ngl even lifesteal is dying too

[hollow sentinel]

The idea itself is really good

[zenith mist]

Hcf was literally just who could trap better xd

[undone creek]

idea is good, but we both know how bad hcf is community side

[viscid wren]

Idk I have my own vision for it thats loosely based off of minecraft, but I think hytale is going to b a game more about exploration and rpg than like how minecraft is just about building massive farms

[hollow sentinel]

New-gen HCF absolutely

[viscid wren]

Idek what lifesteal is tbh

[hollow sentinel]

Absolutely, create a new community around it

[undone creek]

just look up the lifesteal series on youtube

[zenith mist]

Im from veltpvp and vipermc

I know old hcf

[hollow sentinel]

Anything past like Velt Mini is new-gen imo

That's when they ruined the gamemode

[zenith mist]

They still did trapping

[hollow sentinel]

Look up Kohi trapping, its actually interesting

[undone creek]

i mean velt and viper werent even the most toxic hcf community we both know that

[latent spindle]

Its more brutal than faction. No land protection. And if u die u lose a heart and that heart goes to the killer

[hollow sentinel]

What server is the most toxic if not Viper?

[viscid wren]

I think I watched a video on this once

[zenith mist]

Any factions in server with a cash payout

[undone creek]

Arcane? And uh i know there's another one that was popular years ago im blanking on the name

[hollow sentinel]

Cave maybe

[zenith mist]

Instant toxic cesspool

[hollow sentinel]

What was wrong with Arcane? I was an Admin on there lol

It's my favourite HCF server

[undone creek]

it was hcf lol in my mind every hcf server was toxic, some worst then others but im trying ot think of what the one is calle dim thinking of i tihnk killa owned one?..

[hollow sentinel]

@neon cave

[neon cave]

hcf being toxic is so overrated, played that since 2017 and ive never once been hit with some dire toxicity besides crap talking

[hollow sentinel]

Are you Newjersey

[neon cave]

No...

[zenith mist]

Wow yall are younger then me xx

[neon cave]

faithful?

[undone creek]

thats it

[zenith mist]

I played factions since I was 14 xd im 29

[hollow sentinel]

Oh yeah, 100%

[neon cave]

killamc himself used to threaten people LOL so i can see that

[undone creek]

I wouldnt say its overrated, i would say that its known for being toxic because i mean like you said what killa did lmao

[latent spindle]

When Cpvp in hytale

[neon cave]

but ive never been hit w anything on velt or viper or arcane

[hollow sentinel]

#BringBackAspertame

[undone creek]

was faithful the only one that had people get swat threats lol

[zenith mist]

Velt and viper were the best servers tbh

[neon cave]

yeah but, thearchon used to ddos their competition LOL

[undone creek]

and the archon LOL i forgot about that

[neon cave]

the only "pure" servers was like Hypixel and TheHive

but even their staff was known for preying on their playerbase so... (not at fault of the server tho)

[zenith mist]

I've been ddosd offline numerous times playing factions

[undone creek]

even hypixel had issues back in the day lol same with hive

[latent spindle]

Rusher jumped ship when fortnite released

[zenith mist]

Being a cannoneer makes you immediately a target

[neon cave]

yeah, idk hcf being labeled "toxic" is just unfair tho

[undone creek]

i mained saico for a few seasons it was awful

[neon cave]

cosmicpvp was really toxic fr

[zenith mist]

Ha

[undone creek]

cosmic is back lmaoo but afaik just skyblock?

[hollow sentinel]

It's not the gamemode, its the people. I am personally interested in spending a couple thousand to create a new premise for a game mode of similar nature. It's worth a shot

[zenith mist]

Block by block placing walls and bucket filled regens

16 hr a day builds

[undone creek]

thats acutally a bette rway to put it yes, i agree with that 100%

[zenith mist]

Cosmic pvp mans lol

[hollow sentinel]

Like Call of Duty doesn't inherently make people toxic in the same way. It's the people who play Call of Duty. So, if you enforce structure from the start, you most likely won't have these problems, and if you do, they will be easily mitigated.

[undone creek]

I mean..... xbox 360 bo2 lobbies lol

[hollow sentinel]

Well, yeah, exactly, but it's not the game that makes people toxic. It's that people thought it was acceptable to talk to other people like that

[neon cave]

LOL yeah, its the same thing as "xbox lobbies on cod"

[zenith mist]

Ah your a spawn trapper on nuke town aren't you lol

[fiery monolith]

Nah MW2 lobbies…… these kids wouldn’t survive

[undone creek]

well yea i agree

[hollow sentinel]

Like Call of Duty almost has no toxicity in it now days because you literally get banned if you say anything negative

[neon cave]

its just that was the crowd attached to the gamemode, hcf was top 3 biggest gamemodes at one point but its rep makes it seem so much less importatnt

[undone creek]

Any kid that didnt grow up with mw2 or bo2 wouldn't surivive lmao half of the kids on fortnite wouldnt surivive

[hollow sentinel]

HCF still to this day holds the world record for the most amount of players on a single server at once being Mini HCF on Velt 5.0

[fiery monolith]

Which is wild that they do this because it’s suppose to be an adult game

[neon cave]

nah fortnite comp is crazy toxic, comparable to csgo comp toxicity

they'll go to the extreme to make sure their rivals or whoever doesn't compete

[undone creek]

csgo back in the day was crazy toxic but ya comp was worst

hell even valorant is comparable honestly

[fiery monolith]

I really hope Hytale doesn’t get a voice chat mod/plugin

[hollow sentinel]

The HCF community is probably the most toxic community out of any game, and also the game where the most criminals come out of in terms of financial crimes, Think Malone or Open HCF

[undone creek]

im working on a project with a friend atm, its not hcf or facitons but its pvp related for hytale

[neon cave]

nah it'll be ok with good moderation, look at roblox & hoplite

majorly really good moderation but there's some cracks (inevitable)

but the 99% experience will be overall great

[hollow sentinel]

I sent you a friend request. Let's shoot some ideas back and forth.

[fiery monolith]

Are the docs already out there for developers?

[undone creek]

no we're just in the like, stage of waiting lol

[fiery monolith]

Oh then same lol

[neon cave]

i hope there's a discovery/listing for public or partnered servbers

[undone creek]

sound good

[hollow sentinel]

That's already been confirmed.

[undone creek]

iirc i remember it was said there will be something like that later on

[zenith mist]

The servers that Simon lists are ones with generally good games and are not heavily monetized

[neon cave]

oh dope, i hope the combat is different from what they've shown in the teaser..

i mean regardless it'll be modded to doom if its poo but, it'd be sick if it was comparable to 1.8 but a bit cleaner

i already know there's gonna be some hoplite/sg derivative on release

that seems like the easiest concept to grasp and play esp on a new game

[zenith mist]

So if you want to be front in the multi-player tab heavy monetization is dead

[neon cave]

but what counts as "heavy monetization" is the line at pay-2-win

[zenith mist]

Yeah

[neon cave]

or can i just slap a pay wall on a server and say its light monetization cuz the game functionality isn't pay 2 win but u have to pay to get in

[zenith mist]

The issue is people are trying to revive a p2w modes

[neon cave]

what are p2w modes

[zenith mist]

In hytale

Factions as a whole is p2w

[stoic frigate]

hey im a little confused what is this chanell for?

[neon cave]

nah, its only p2w via specific configuration

[undone creek]

simon replied to someone on tiwtter not too long ago and he said combat was deisnged with pvp in mind

[zenith mist]

Every server puts cosmetics with powerful effects behind pay wall

[neon cave]

factions isn't p2w but can be if ur paying for kits, lives, etc

[zenith mist]

Its a litterally common thing on all factions servers

[fiery monolith]

I want to make a tech plugin

[viscid wren]

Server plugins specifically but sometimes it becomes general talk about managing severs

[neon cave]

yes ofc, just because its the norm as a strategy of monetization doesn't mean it's the gamemode's fault

[viscid wren]

You have to really be trying to make factions p2w

[zenith mist]

And its random chance crates so you cant even be garunteed the armor piece or weapon

Thats all the current factions servers that are open today every single one

[neon cave]

yeah those didn't initially exist for the great factions era, crates were only available for winning in-game events and drop parties, and donation goals met for the server

[zenith mist]

Yeah thay was like vanitymc

3000$ cash prizes lol

[neon cave]

i believe that should be the norm again, not buying crate keys and kits and a rank for a 24hr kit

[viscid wren]

TheArchon was so bad with being p2w 💀

[neon cave]

yeah, so bad to the point the lowest rank basically gave u starter kit with prot 1 slapped on it LOL

was so cringe and they got eula'd so many times

[zenith mist]

Yeah factions is a mode thst i think shouldn't be in hytale as a whole

Its mostly dominated with p2w configurations