server-plugins-read-only

[fierce fulcrum]

I'm a java guy and I don't like c# 😅

[lucid sluice]

you've completely missed the joke

[twilit phoenix]

Ah, I thought you were one of those people who say that just to annoy others 😅

[scarlet atlas]

Bug tracking for mods/plugins probably 👀

Or server analytics for Hytale (I’m the guy who made Analyse, for those of you who may’ve ran it on your server in the past)

[wintry jungle]

Essentials, plots/pstones/towny, perms management

it's a good chance to revive towny community

[orchid torrent]

stuff like this gonna make servers so nice to play on

[wintry jungle]

Yep, that's the point

[orchid torrent]

also excited for the pvp in hytale and all the mods that come with it
really hate what minecraft pvp has evolved into

[fierce fulcrum]

hit
*have a 8 year old daughter
hit again

This gameplay ? :p

[rigid crown]

let’s build a Minecraft-to-Hytale bridge plugin. What could possibly go wrong? just imagine a Steve joining your Hytale server.

[wintry jungle]

Waiting to see the first "no premium" Hytale launcher

[gritty sleet]

someone will need to host a dedicated server with pvp enabled XD

[willow acorn]

if you ask me cracked minecraft is 50% responsible for its success

[twilit phoenix]

A brief look at Hytale json files

[willow acorn]

at least here in latin america all my friends played cracked when kids, and managed to bought the game as adults

[wintry jungle]

yep, me too

[rigid crown]

same

[abstract skiff]

Yall is the early access available already?

[barren hare]

Mhhh a mod with rare mount that demands specials item would be quite easy to do nice

[orchid torrent]

not yet but soon

[willow acorn]

I would kill to get a configurable mount offset in minecraft

[orchid torrent]

minecraft been slowly dying and becoming outdated

hytale bringing in so many features that are great

[median cloak]

Poop?

[orchid torrent]

why not

[dawn kiln]

hytale needs guns otherwise it will suck i think

[west elk]

From what we have seen, I'm guessing that guns will be in the modding examples, but not the base survival game mode

[orchid torrent]

you can easily create guns with the built in modding

but u would have to make a model if u care about that

[patent surge]

muskets, flintlocks and cannons 🗣️ 🔥 🔥 🔥

[abstract skiff]

Thank u

Thank u thank u thank u

[west elk]

Date will be announced at the end of next week

[crystal plank]

what language is going to be used for hytale plugins/mods?

[fierce fulcrum]

c# client, server in java

[agile escarp]

We need a poop anchor too

[crystal plank]

oh okay, thanks

[tired arrow]

Did you not watch the gameplay release video?

Bro was blasting an Ak

[keen pecan]

Do you guys know if server's operations are gonna be single threaded or multithreaded?

[tired arrow]

Real question is if factions is going to have a comeback in hytale

[dry trellis]

I did see that the website advertised: "Ingame Scripting", which instantly makes me think of a blueprint/scratch-like system. Has there been confirmation that there will be an actual Java API for creating server plugins in this version? (I'm guessing so, since the description says Java server plugins, but still xD)

[fierce fulcrum]

🤷

[safe heart]

that's also what I am trying to understand

[fierce fulcrum]

To be honest i feel it's a lot easier to have a java api endpoint than an ingame script editor

but in the end we will see when the modding blog post is released !

[dry trellis]

I'm incredibly hyped to say the least! :DD

I saw that there was a modding discord, is there a pinned message to where I can find that?

[static portal]

its an unofficial modding discord

[dry trellis]

Aahhh, makes sense.

[static portal]

you can find it at @nova shard's bio

[dry trellis]

Thank you!

[timid finch]

Ah, hope that hytale server would be more efficient than minecraft one

And support multicore, not just single threaded server

[sweet cobalt]

It's been heavily implied, at minimum, by Simon on twitter.

[static portal]

mc isn't single threaded

[dry trellis]

Aah that's amazing! I'm also wondering if there'll be a supplied proxy (such as Velocity for MC) aswell, or if the community will have to tinker one.

[timid finch]

It is, it uses one thread for netty server and one for tick's

[dry trellis]

Hopefully there'll be more info about that in the modding post.

[dry trellis]

I know, that's why I said it at the end of the message, was just confirming it tbh ;D

[boreal viper]

Is World Edit available?

[static portal]

netty stuff uses executor its not even manage by MC
but yes, tick is done in 1 thread
tick doesn't include anything liked to chunk who are also executed in executor, see net.minecraft.utils's executors

[cold wigeon]

in the original trailer there was a builtin world edit

[rose atlas]

yes.

[blissful egret]

I'm not a huge fan of java as a language but json is one of my favorite scripting languages

[main moon]

Are there people really using nitter 🤨🤔

[gusty aspen]

@nova shard's bio

[gusty aspen]

Many people do on our modding discord

[main moon]

Thats crazy, why?

[timid finch]

besides that minecraft requires CPU with more performance by single core instead of xeon like CPUs that usually have more undervolted cores

[static portal]

because ppl uses what they want?

[gusty aspen]

I mean no need to login to Twitter so

[timid finch]

hope that hytale server can scale well for that

[main moon]

Never said they couldn't, but I am curious as to why, whats better about it

[static portal]

yes, because ticking is on a thread (and chunk gen is pretty sync iirc, not an expert on that part of the game), doesn't change its not multi threaded

[main moon]

True, but can you not like make an random account?

[gusty aspen]

That's what I do but some people don't want to so

[static portal]

why would anyone annoy themselve to do that when an other website can be used?

[fierce fulcrum]

Well there was the folia project on minecraft which was able to multithread the server iirc ?

[static portal]

that only ticking, where it seperate in region, but other part of the game was already threaded
there is also MCMT fabric who uses executor to tick

[fierce fulcrum]

ok ok but that's already a lot !

like the ticking is one of the thing which consume the most resources on server because of all the chunks loaded

[static portal]

chunk loading is the thing that consume the most ressource, thats why its threaded

[fierce fulcrum]

In my experience it was not really but that depends on the server gameplay
When we did analysis at the time it was really the block ticking the big problem

but surely for exploration server where people moves a lot it would be loading

[static portal]

what tool did you use for it?

[fierce fulcrum]

I believe it was spark at that time ? (it's been a loooong time)

[static portal]

by default spark only repport on the ticking thread

[fierce fulcrum]

oh wel that would explain my reasonin :p

[exotic axle]

there's a fairly sizeable discord community for Hytale Modding where people are discussing plans for a universal API for energy

[last turtle]

ooo, could i get an invite to that? id love to contribute

cuz fighting over energy APIs in the beginning will suck lmao

[rose atlas]

whats energy api

[static portal]

its in @nova shard's bio, its ofc non official
honestly don't expect me to talk a lot there, i find the discussion quite uninteresting unlike those here

[rose atlas]

BLOG IS OUT I REPEAT BLOG IS OUT

[rose atlas]

HELL YEAH

[static portal]

best choice

[umbral mauve]

Incredible!

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[fierce fulcrum]

The question was asked a lot in the afternoon

[rustic beacon]

uuuh

what does text based scripting mean?

[undone creek]

its scripting think abut it like lua

[static portal]

lmao

[fierce fulcrum]

It's what the Skript plugin was doing in mc for example

[fierce fulcrum]

classical issue i believe :p

[grizzled dock]

I would appreciate it if you could add something like the Atlas to the resource packages

[rustic beacon]

No idea what that means!

[static portal]

insert xkcd framework

[cold wigeon]

the post is up? but not announced D:

[main moon]

This I assume

[rose atlas]

idk

[fierce fulcrum]

The idea is to have a simple text representation of a program with easy instruction that you can use
it feels a lot like programming but with a simpler syntax and functionnality to focus on the ability on people with no programming skills to do "programming like" things

[rustic beacon]

AAaah okay thank you I got it

[near raptor]

This is an amazingly useful blog post. I am quite happy about simply writing code in the language that the server itself runs in, instead of having some scripting language in between.

Grants full freedom (hopefully) without being limited

[fierce fulcrum]

I need a plugin that show the last xkcd picture

[main moon]

Yeah Slikey really cooked

I think it almost answers all our questions we had here

[twilit phoenix]

java for server side and visual scripting nice

[rustic beacon]

I like how they made it so you dont have download seperate mods when trying to play on a modded server like in mc

[near raptor]

this is also very interesting, it means that the community can actually contribute to the server (in a similar way to Paper efforts, kind of)

[static portal]

thats intresting
i wonder if it will be good

[main moon]

Can't they not already opensource the raptor riding mod..

Would be a nice peek

[fierce fulcrum]

Yes that's soooo cool
because it actually means we can customize the api to better suit modding

[rose atlas]

its already added no?

[main moon]

Yeah but its a mod

[rose atlas]

u can make any mob ridable now

[main moon]

Its not official

[rich solar]

Its offically a mod

[main moon]

Maybe a mod you can install?

[rich solar]

More like something you can quickly adjust based on "easily" changing the config 😄

Cant wait for the mod blog today

[main moon]

its already out

[near raptor]

I cannot post a link to the blog post about modding, but it is on their website

[rich solar]

Oh bet

[lilac prawn]

CurseForge was such a poor choice in modding platforms

[obtuse basalt]

Wait, there is no scripting for client? Everything runs on json and java?

[near raptor]

The blog post says such as CurseForge, so it is not their selected modding platform, just an example

[lilac prawn]

I'm genuinely upset that they've gone with CurseForge as the main modding platform

[fierce fulcrum]

it runs on java and it can be parametrized with json

[lilac prawn]

They do say "such as CurseForge" but they don't mention any plans to expand that for the foreseeable future

[obtuse basalt]

I thought the client gets send javascript / lua or something, hmm I am looking forward to see how it works with json for the client part

[near raptor]

The Luau part was the new engine

[main moon]

I think they mentioned CurseForge because its targetted at all kind of games instead of Minecraft specific

[static portal]

nope

[lilac prawn]

We're not getting scripting languages

[fierce fulcrum]

My guess is that it will download the jar when you connect to the server the run it client side ? or the jar is actually run by the server for every player which might be a little too costly

[static portal]

node one yes tho

[lilac prawn]

We're getting visual scripting instead, which IMO could be better depending on how they do it

[obtuse basalt]

Lets go Chests for UIs

[fierce fulcrum]

and that's actually a good thing

[static portal]

you should go read the blog post

[obtuse basalt]

Noo the client is C#

[near raptor]

I don't think the jars would be downloaded to the client, that sounds insecure

[true socket]

the new blogpost is quite interesting

[static portal]

ah yes, remote code execution!

[obtuse basalt]

Oh wasnt at the Custom UI part lol

[near raptor]

Probably similar to how Paper plugins also don't get downloaded to the client

[lilac prawn]

The only thing downloaded is assets and any configuration files

[fierce fulcrum]

Yes but the client can run java code even if it's in c#

[true socket]

im quite surprised they decided not to do scripting at all

[lilac prawn]

Visual scripting is a form of scripting, but it's obviously not text-based

[fierce fulcrum]

you can sandbox a jvm without problem that's actually not a so big hazard as it sounds

[fierce fulcrum]

what would be the value ? like it's a lot of work to actually create a language for a early access

[static portal]

yeah i know, but its still not the best solution

[fierce fulcrum]

the alternative being running an instance of each plugins for each player is not that great either

[true socket]

there is no client scripting the blog post makes that very clear, but it doesn’t need client scripting because a LOT is controlled by the server

[fierce fulcrum]

You clearly didn't read my previous message

[static portal]

... thats not how it works...

[lilac prawn]

Client scripting does exist, what do you mean ...?

[true socket]

no I didn’t

[lilac prawn]

The client offers you visual scripting tools

[true socket]

to write code which runs on the server

[fierce fulcrum]

The thing is that in the case the server really handle the UI of everyone, it clearly needs a way to do something similar to what i've described

[lilac prawn]

Some of it will affect the client, but you're not running code that will directly affect the client beyond whatever happens within that server

[static portal]

... so the way mc does it?

[true socket]

whar

[fierce fulcrum]

No the Ui is handled client side on mc

you just receive a packet with a description of the ui

[lilac prawn]

You can modify the UI however you want

[near raptor]

The UI is handled client-side in MC, but what happens in the UI is handled server-side

[static portal]

yesn't, some data are sync
slot for example

[obtuse basalt]

Okay NoesisGUI json with assets?

[lilac prawn]

Not all of the elements on-screen depend on the server, I imagine

[static portal]

no idea

[fierce fulcrum]

But here it's much more than the data, it's data and the way it's positioned, it's like sending an image to each player each tick (it's not really an image it's much lighter but you get the idea)
it really is not the same thing as mc is doing

[true socket]

I don’t get what we’re all yapping about

[dawn spire]

that visual scripting stuff sounds so ass lmao

[true socket]

honestly im very happy about no direct client mods its all such a mess in minecraft

[fierce fulcrum]

The idea is that you have much more general packet sent by the server to the client and the mod that runs on the server can tweak the packet to do a lot of things
So actually in this situation the client do not need to execute code it just receives instruction about what to do, in a language that can describe a looooot of things.

[white crest]

Gonna make an unofficial readthedoc maybe

[obtuse basalt]

Its for designers, developers still can use Java I guess

[true socket]

i know but like what is the argument here

[static portal]

did you read the blog post?

[fierce fulcrum]

It would also be usefull for small thing for server, like a command which teleport at a given position or something like that

[true socket]

just let them cook it isn’t for people who can already code well

[lilac prawn]

They're right

[dawn spire]

the visual scripting is their excuse to give us no client side scripting at all so uhm

[lilac prawn]

Visual scripting's mostly for people who aren't code-savvy

[fierce fulcrum]

not really no

[static portal]

yes, its said in the blog post, thats why "i guess" shouldn't be there

[fierce fulcrum]

The no client mod thing was known for a while actually

[dawn spire]

it literally says it here

[static portal]

no??? they say its for security reason

[true socket]

nah it still runs on server

[white crest]

I not an expert in MC plugin (I guess it will be the same for Hytale), so how it's works to modify the game of the client without any download ?

[last turtle]

assets are downloaded and that's prob it

[true socket]

they were taking about server side scripting

[static portal]

i hope sharders too

[fierce fulcrum]

even if you had a scripting thing it would still had run on the server so it's not " excuse to give us no client side scripting at all"

[main moon]

This is what they mean

[last turtle]

there's some things that I'm curious how are going to work, notably input handling and shaders and stuff

[obtuse basalt]

The client downloads assets from the server which tells the client how to behave, how to modify mobs etc

[lilac prawn]

It's a really old trailer with an unfinished game

[fierce fulcrum]

I really don't know, same thing with the UI, i don't understand what the client will know of exactly

[true socket]

guys if you really want scripting support just like.. make it

there’s so many good scripting language options on jvm like groovy, kotlin scripts, jruby

it wouldn’t be that hard to make a plugin for it

[obtuse basalt]

"Programmers are more productive when they stay in a programming language (Java/C#)"

[mystic gyro]

Summary of the new blog post for Server Owners:

• Server .jar plugin support at launch
• Official server coming post-launch with Hypixel minigames, not meant to compete with community servers
• Server source code available 2 months after release; unobfuscated, easy to decompile code accessible in the meantime
• GitBook documentation in progress

[static portal]

from what i understand, those 3

[main moon]

Skript 😏

[true socket]

NO

[static portal]

yes, its explicitly said its in it, so why did you say "i guess"?

[feral oyster]

TL;DR:

• Java for logic
• JSON for data
• Visual scripting later down the line for non-programmers
• All server-side and necessary (visual) assets seamlessly transferred to clients

nothing more nothing less

[obtuse basalt]

Idk, was a bit unsure?

[rigid crown]

I cannot imagine a large project with visual scripting. Does sound harder than just using a language. Good luck getting a good structure into that sht.

[main moon]

Does anyone has expirience with the unreal node system? Does AI work in there as good as text based? Idk why people would still want a visual node system now with AI

[fierce fulcrum]

yes i understand the asset things but like is the UI really an asset ? then does it mean you can't put arbitrary things on it ?
input handlers are also a great question

[near raptor]

Without bashing scripting languages too much (they have their own purpose), I don't understand the fuss about a lack of a scripting language. As the blog post states: you still have to learn a language if you want to learn a scripting language. Scripting languages might be somewhat "easier" than languages like Java, but you still gotto learn the language. Might as well learn a language like Java (or better: Kotlin) which might have applications outside of Hytale should you be interested in pursuing that path.

[static portal]

we can't know but my guess it you would be able to change them

[summer sapphire]

I think a big point is server side modding is a focus for them and we’ll be able to modify almost anything server side! And that client side modding won’t be accessible

[sinful torrent]

Wasn't the game rewritten in C++? Why are we back to Java?

[obtuse basalt]

They switched to legacy engine, because the new engine isnt ready for anything

[fierce fulcrum]

My question is quite technical more than practical i know it will be possible but i'm really interested in how they architectured it

[static portal]

yes, see the "hytale is save" post

[fierce fulcrum]

The client is in c#, the server run Java code

[static portal]

same but its unlikely to know before we have the game

[obtuse basalt]

The client is C# thats not C++

[feral oyster]

Client is C#... all the "fancy" C++ engine stuff got thrown out

[summer sapphire]

Client is C#

[fierce fulcrum]

ups

wellll that's the same thing really :3

[near raptor]

Same letter, different symbols, right

[dawn spire]

what lmao

[fierce fulcrum]

(no you're right i did not think about it too much when writing my message sorry guys)

[feral oyster]

it's like Java and Javascript... one and the same... right!... right? (sarcasm)

[white crest]

Imagine if I create a mod/plugin (don't know which to use) where I add an item that don't exists (whatever, a lollipop).
With a client mod, the jar file contains my 3d model, texture, etc (=> called asset) and code logic.
With a server plugin, the client automatically download asset and the server run the code logic.

I'm asking, don't sure how it's works.

[fast kiln]

I bet there will be re-implementation of the server before the game is out for a year

[sinful torrent]

The game would be so much more optimized in C++ but alright, we can work with Java

[rose atlas]

DINO RIDING

[fierce fulcrum]

Both are bad languages to my eyes :p

[fast kiln]

Hell na

[static portal]

not how it works

[static portal]

:3

[dawn spire]

just stop please

[sinful torrent]

Well, it actually does work this way. C++ you have much more control over how to optimize things. Java restricts you on how to access/mutate data

[feral oyster]

• you create your 3D models, textures and logic... stuff it to a jar file on the server
• when client joins the server they will download visual assets to the client side and some metadata like "hey this mesh and this texture is block with ID "store" "
• and then all the logic is handled on the server... and client is just like "hey, I placked a block" a server does the logic

[static portal]

honestly based, all real devs code in assembly (/s ofc)

[fierce fulcrum]

The server code running java is really not that big of an issue, the main problem with java is the garbage collection
If the java code do not handle things that move a lot in memory (entity loading for example) then it should be fine

and again java in itself is slow yes, but minecraft was not really well made so it's hard to compare

[obtuse basalt]

assembly? I set the bits directly!

[sinful gale]

is hytale now on c++ or going back to java?

[feral oyster]

back on java for server and C# for (unmodable) client

[summer sapphire]

1. Plugins are server sided modding, you can use them interchangeably for Hytale, for Minecraft it would’ve been a bit confusing
2. You use JSON assets to create an item definition, and your Java mod will have logic and functionality. In short, Java is for logic, json/assets is for visuals/data

[near raptor]

Java is not necessarily slow though, it often ranks pretty high in performance. Sure it's no C or Rust, but it certainly is no JavaScript either

[sinful torrent]

C# works in a similar fashion to Java

[fierce fulcrum]

^^ (joke apart i believe that both are bad languages for a lot of different reasons)

[near raptor]

Or well, the JVM I should say, Java is just a language

[fierce fulcrum]

never said otherwise ?

[hasty sail]

Server hosting seems like it will be very expensive with all modding being server side

[white crest]

On MC, plugin are very limited, why this will be different for Hytale

[hollow hollow]

Has there been any mention of how many concurrent connections a server can handle? Or any other networking type stuff?

[stone burrow]

Well not exactly thrown out... They probably have the source code of the new engine and maybe will be taking parts of that code to the old engine (ideas rewritten from C++ to C#)

[fierce fulcrum]

that's one of the thing i'm worried about

[obtuse basalt]

No its going to be cheap

[timid finch]

Not that much

[summer sapphire]

Modern JVMs are actually faster than C++ in some cases too! JVM is not slow. Either way the speed difference is negligible though

[fast kiln]

i mean you can optimze every language but java comes with really annoying design choices.

[feral oyster]

well, hytale has official mod support... and main focus was to have all server-side rahter than client side

[summer sapphire]

Like what?

[static portal]

official plugin support*

[fierce fulcrum]

On that part we can agree but like C++ is a great demonstration of poor design choise also ^^

[hasty sail]

Do you have an actual source or reasoning for why you think this?

[rigid crown]

For a classic game server, you really won't notice that much of a difference in performance between Java and C++. Java might be slower, but C++ harder to maintain.

[dawn spire]

as long as they provide a fast-dl support for the assets it should be fine for your actual gameserver

[feral oyster]

one and the same... mod and plugin can be used interchangeable in this case

[fast kiln]

That is 100% correct

But c++ has the best mascot

[edgy coral]

soooo many incompetent client devs are coming from this because of the game being in java

[timid finch]

Can confirm. I'll host site with over 2k requests per second and it's written with java

[feral oyster]

Every language can be slow... same as every language can be fast... depends on how stupid is the person writing the code...

[rose atlas]

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING BUT NOBODY BELIEVED ME.

[static portal]

nope, mod can change how the code acts while plugin are part of code that can dynamicly be executed

[static portal]

everyone belived you tho?

[fierce fulcrum]

well that's normal architecure ?

[near raptor]

Ahh as expected, indeed

[bitter nacelle]

It’s the same in MC too technically. You spin up a local lan server for single player

[rose atlas]

HEY LOOK.

[feral oyster]

nothing unexpected there... maybe for AI script kiddies who don't know anything other than what pappa AI tells them

[timid finch]

Same as MC

[white crest]

And that why, it's a multiplayer tab even when Simon show a gameplay solo

[dawn spire]

anyone knows if there will be voip support?

[rigid crown]

hope the game turns out great. Have a feeling that they rushed it the past month 😛

[white crest]

Pretty sure not

[leaden crystal]

gmod style 😂

so good way

[edgy coral]

C# doesnt make the client unmoddable, infact it will be just as easy because you can use a tool like ilspy to decompile the game and then recompile it after fixing some erros, there also exists detour hooks like with monomod

[static portal]

it will, not when beta release

[dawn spire]

thats also the problem if we cant add client side scripts, we could easily add voip over teamspeak if we had client side scripts for example

[feral oyster]

not really gmod style... it's the standard way of doing this where multiplayer is the primary component... even freaking unreal does that under the hood

[static portal]

yeah but no, it will be using harminy libs so multipe mod can be loaded

[fast kiln]

send sound file play sound file in a stream ?

[feral oyster]

well, I meant it in genreal sense... you can obviously disassemble C# and do hooks etc... but why bother... + if they're going to add anti-cheat you're just going to get bonked

[rose atlas]

cant wait to see: 14 mod packs loaded.

[fast kiln]

It would be really unwise to add a anticheat client side

[rose atlas]

i think they stripped that away..

[edgy coral]

i somehow doubt they will do a client side anticheat, but idk we will see

[fierce fulcrum]

Yes but it would open so much more problem, like apart from that (which Simon said was an interesting thing to add) what is the point of modifying the client ?

[rose atlas]

cause i remember there was an anti-cheat section.. that's now gone.

[unreal dove]

Do we know yet what the API for Java plugins will be like? Or have they not said anything yet?

[feral oyster]

and why would that be... for primarly multiplayer game, etc... it makes sense... and by anti-cheat I don't mean kernel-level anti-cheat or anything like that

[fast kiln]

VOIP like soren said

[dawn spire]

1. your server wouldnt have to handle as many things if you can do simple stuff in client
2. endless options like voip, client side anticheats written by the server owners and so on

[feral oyster]

imo client-side will be obfuscated and will have some form of anti-tamper inside of it... maybe not right now, but later down the lines it for sure will

[fast kiln]

Who said it is primarly multiplayer ?

[latent helm]

Off the top of my head: Optimization mods if the game doesn't run too well on low end systems and hand-tailored/general accessibility mods for those who are disabled

[fierce fulcrum]

Yes but then every player would need to change client to join differnt server
client side anticheat for a game with no really competitive game is a bloatware imo

[edgy coral]

i would hope it is obfuscated lol, idk about anti tamper, but maybe

anyways yeah ur right its all speculation

[feral oyster]

indeed

[fierce fulcrum]

Optimization mods are a must in minecraft because the game is badly done

[dawn spire]

no? you can obv load client side scripts dynamically just like all the multiplayer mods for gta do?

[fierce fulcrum]

but then you need to differentiate between two types of mods/plugins things

[ornate coral]

Will the servers are multi-thread comp. or single thread?

[feral oyster]

there are no client-side scripts... all the logic is done on the server and you only interact via RPCs like "Open UI X" "user click on item Y" etc.

[static portal]

meh
rendering sure but they are fixing it in latest version

[rose atlas]

i think multi but i dunno

[unreal dove]

Do we know yet what the API for Java plugins will be like? Or have they not said anything yet?

[feral oyster]

I'd expect multithreaded for scalability etc.... but who knows

[rose atlas]

i can assure you whatever concern you have: they solved it

[static portal]

we can't know
but it probably be like mc, aka multi

[latent helm]

Sure but we dont know the specs for hytale yet, if it cannot run on idk 8th gen Intel internal graphics then a lot of people are gonna have a hard time running it
Oh and vanilla minecraft generally runs fine on low end hardware, just not with mods

[fierce fulcrum]

it doesn't change the fact that the core of minecraft is not really clean
but yeah i'm hoping they will fix it in the long run

[fast kiln]

single threaded would be really dump

[winged ore]

they should've made hytale in assembly, lowkey

[feral oyster]

they havesaid that they're working on documentation (read the blog post they made) it's not ready yet but it will be

[ornate coral]

mc servers are mostly single

[static portal]

no its pretty good?

[fierce fulcrum]

then the game would not run on everycomputer depending on the processor :p
(that's a bit of exageration)

[last turtle]

nightmare

[static portal]

nope
you just only see the part that run on a single core but i can assure you its multi

[unreal dove]

Thanks buddy, my english is not good so maybe i haven’t read that part

[quick kelp]

hytale modding finally gonna give me a creative outlet lessgooo

[fierce fulcrum]

The lighting system for example is really bad, and it's a thing that cause a lot of lag client side, i don't know if they've fixed in the latest version

[static portal]

fixed since 1.20
client lag spike was fixed in version even before, 1.20 was server side light

[winged ore]

would be great for performance tho

[feral oyster]

here, relevant snippet from the blogpost

[latent helm]

Yeah great idea, let's delay it another 7 years

[edgy coral]

@feral oyster are u a dev, modder, or what, im curious

[fierce fulcrum]

not so sure x) it's hard to write assembly :p

[winged ore]

LMAOO

[fast kiln]

There a cross platform assemblers. Or they could use LLVM

[last turtle]

ticking happens on one thread but some things are multithreaded like io and chunk loading and maybe pathfinding? I don't remember

[fierce fulcrum]

that's the exageration part of my message

[viscid wren]

So glad to see that mods and plugins are one item and not separate like in Minecraft meaning they can coexist in the same world.

[fast kiln]

It would just take ages to develop

[fierce fulcrum]

usually it's hard to write low-level stuff that works on every platform (even more if you want it the long run to support different systems)

[feral oyster]

I'm a programmer with 15+ years of experience in gamedev, programming, devops etc... though I have no official or unofficial connection to hytale... and all I have is just plain old common sense and years of experience

[summer sapphire]

I believe they just split rendering too

[static portal]

path is on the ticking thread so its only 1 iirc (not an expert on that part)
but almost everything linked to chunk is multi threaded because of how heavy it is so ppl doesn't notice how heavy it actually is

[last turtle]

??? when did they change that

[winged ore]

yup, idk how chris sawyer coded roller coaster tycoon all by himself 😭

[edgy coral]

ah yeah that makes sense, im just some uni student lol

[last turtle]

because I mod for 1.21.1 and chunks are absolutely all ticked on the same thread

[winged ore]

yeah bro i was jk

[static portal]

idk
again not an expert on that the path find og the game

[fierce fulcrum]

other time, other skills

[quick kelp]

AYYYYY

[feral oyster]

Those were the fun days lol 😄 😄

[static portal]

chunk ticking mean ticking things that are inside chunk, its not releated to chunk

[last turtle]

you may be thinking of folia then

[quick kelp]

ive been looking for some kind of ugc space to do and im hoping hytale modding is the one

[rigid crown]

i expect it to be comparable to Paper, but more modern. Since the developers probably know spigot api well, they probably tend to design it similar. But let's see. There will be a lot of other concepts in play tho.

[winged ore]

not really "other skills" as even at that time, games used to be coded in C. he's a literal game dev god

[static portal]

nope, i barly have look at folia code anyway

[last turtle]

and yes, when I say chunk ticking I mean things in the chunk are ticked on the same thread
if you can show me the code that dispatches it on other threads that'd be lovely but I'm like 99% sure it's not

[edgy kernel]

holy you really searched for this message just to say “told you so” 😂

good job brother. proud of ya.

[latent helm]

Oh logical servers like in Minecraft, nice

[static portal]

yeah no, ticking is done on a single thread
but the management of chunks (including gen, light, IO, ect) is an heavy part and its threaded

[fierce fulcrum]

the first games were created before the C language
so for a long time people used low level language (basic or assembly from what i know)

when C was created it made sense to switch but people were still learning at that time how to code in low level language

nowadays it's not that big of a deal for most computer science cursus

[last turtle]

you mean chunk loading and generation?

that's been multithreaded for a while, yes

[edgy coral]

oh yeah i was gonna ask what happened to the c++ client they were talking about a few years back, i live under a rock :)

[static portal]

yeah

[last turtle]

not production ready so they canned it 💔

[edgy coral]

did they just scrap it

[pseudo lantern]

just came back and theres a blog post???

[edgy kernel]

also, never said i “didn’t believe you”, i simply said it could work differently, and that you were using minecraft as a reference for where your info came from

[winged ore]

i'm talking about late '90s though

[latent helm]

You forget pascal and lisp, they were both high level and existed before C. We knew how to do high level coding at least since the first lisp interpreter was made in the 50s

[fierce fulcrum]

even then i stand by my claim ^^^
in my country in the begginning of the 90s people were still learning assembly

[fierce fulcrum]

Oh yes sorry i didn't pretend C was the first "high" level language !

[winged ore]

i mean i'm learning it too, but that's just because i love low level programmng

[edgy coral]

damn we need a hytale touhou mod icl

[quick kelp]

someone will do it

[feral oyster]

pretty sure it'll be one of the first mods out there... other than bad apple itself

[edgy coral]

yeah bro just dodge

[blazing goblet]

give it a week

[quick kelp]

i wanna see what hytales system for spells is like and build off that a la irons spells and spellbooks

[fierce fulcrum]

yes but at that time it was part of a good computer science cursus
in the university i work i don't belive they see it more than during a semestrer

[fast kiln]

Well it ain't about learning to code. Its about everything else lol

[fierce fulcrum]

?

[rigid crown]

I'll code bedwars

[winged ore]

it made sense at the time to learn it, since computers weren't nearly as powerful as what we have today, and the storages were TINY

[fierce fulcrum]

Yes of course !
That's why i spoke about "other skills"
It skills that were usefull and accessible at that time and that are no longer usefull and accessible (for the greater part)

that was literraly my point all along p:

[winged ore]

yeah sorry i dragged it a bit

[fierce fulcrum]

dw

[fast kiln]

In the Uni where i am from there is a module for programming introduction but after that there are close to none.

[winged ore]

i love talking about programming, even though i'm not good at it

[fierce fulcrum]

you mean low level stuff ? that's not so surprising

[summer sapphire]

Use Hytale as a medium to get good!

[stiff belfry]

so, no kotlin support?

[summer sapphire]

Kotlin is JVM

[fierce fulcrum]

and that's actually pretty good
would be useless to make everyone learn that

understand what is it yes, being able to code in assembly no

[near raptor]

You can use Kotlin wherever you use the JVM

[summer sapphire]

It’ll work by default, it’s still gonna be a jar

[fast kiln]

Not particular about low level i mean more like low level programming. Most of the modules a Informatics theory and math.

[near raptor]

Nah it's not so bad. I use Kotlin almost exclusively to write plugins for MC, even though all the APIs are in Java

[fierce fulcrum]

yes normal that's more transferable skills

[rigid crown]

you are better than most, most cannot code at all. So you're doing great

[winged ore]

i like making little console apps and games, i tried game dev once but i just don't have the artistc skills for it

[fierce fulcrum]

I can't really compare (the school i studied is well know for it's theoretical aspect)

[rose atlas]

I was referencing how they had a friends list, that they said would allow them to join ur world from anywhere.

[quick kelp]

i think the trick with artistic stuff is to just get reps. thats what I want to do more off when I start messing with hytale modding

[fast kiln]

Eyo Dwarf Fortress is fire

[summer sapphire]

That’s why modding is so great! You can skip the art and assets if you want, and just use what’s in the game to bring your idea to life 🙂

[fierce fulcrum]

you know beign good as programming does not mean a lot
i don't believe i'm that good but i've got a heavy background in theoretical stuff and i did a lot of programming in the past

i'm more carried away by my theoretical knownledge nowadays

[edgy kernel]

gotcha, yeah this is a must, port-forwarding is like rocket science to half these kids

[winged ore]

not THAT complex...

[quick kelp]

it helps a lot that the focus with modding software is also to get stuff out quick, the quick loading of changes reminds me a lot of when I tried messing with s&box

[rose atlas]

They use UPnP with NAT punchthrough as backup

[stiff belfry]

I've had more experience with Java and I don't want to mess with it again, Kotlin seems better

[edgy kernel]

yeah, godsend, esp the punchthrough

[quick kelp]

im warming up to kotlin, and so long as theres no weird workaround to get it working on hytale i think ill stick wit it

[stiff belfry]

me in the middle

[summer sapphire]

It’s not necessarily better or worse really, it’s about preference. And again, I say all beginner programmers should start with Java before Kotlin

[quick kelp]

some syntax oop specifics im not fully wrapped around yet, but im getting there

[fierce fulcrum]

it's funny how everyone use this metaphor but how this metaphor was proven wrong so many times :x

[rigid crown]

Yeah, but I still somehow love programming in Java. It hooks me xD

[stiff belfry]

i think the problem with kotlin is that it is to closed to jetbrains ecosystem

[fierce fulcrum]

that's actually a dangerous statement ^^

[near raptor]

Shouldn't need to be a weird workaround. Usually it's as simple as adding the Kotlin plugin to your Gradle files (or Maven, if you use that), and then you are good to go. In the end, it compiles down to the Java Class files

[rose atlas]

i wasnt being serious

[upbeat storm]

Very impressed with the technical direction in the blog, looks like how Minecraft should've been all along more or less from an architecture perspective

A game made by people who understand modding ig lol

[quick kelp]

oh yeah thats another interesting bit, is there ANY info at all of a forced IDE like vs or somethin?

[winged ore]

i need to be good at it though, since i'm talking with my teachers about doing a cyber security stage with my school

[latent helm]

Yeah theres literally no good kotlin LSPs out there except jetbrains
Someone has to make a good one someday though, maybe a fork of jdtls

[quick kelp]

i mean considering what simons tryna do i doubt there will be

[fierce fulcrum]

and i wasn't critizing you specifically ^^

[upbeat storm]

no why would there be

[near raptor]

Kotlin is open-source

[pine hornet]

Visual language suprised me

[fierce fulcrum]

👍
I must be not so bad at it cause i work to teach it to other ^^

[quick kelp]

didnt think so, but no reason to ask i suppose

[muted cliff]

You can run into dependency incompatibilities if multiple jars on the classpath provide multiple different versions of the same library (kotlin stdlib, etc). That can be circumvented through platform-level classloader isolation, or plugin-level relocation. We don't know how the classloading mechanism in hytale will work so it's too early to say. But that's a pretty niche issue and unlikely to cause issues for most developers.

[rigid crown]

jea but somehow every kotlin dev ends up using products by jetbrains

[winged ore]

i have the creativity and ideas, just not the skills to make assets, yet

[near raptor]

Nowadays when you shadow in some library, you relocate it to your own package / namespace to prevent this

[rigid crown]

but they are actually great tho

[latent helm]

Kotlin tooling outside jetbrains is lacking, probably because IDEAs implementation is so good. Id just rather use my usual editor rather than a jetbrains editor

[marsh hornet]

yeah, you can argue that minecraft was born a indie game, so nobody thought about doing all this, but let's be honest if they cared about modding community that is just how things should've been

[stiff belfry]

Same with C#
Using C# with VSCode or any code editor is crazy, only Rider and Visual Studio can provide a good experience imo

[muted cliff]

"nowadays" isn't that accurate, that isn't a new concept

[west elk]

No, it's just Java and JSON so you can use anything you want. For NoesisGUI you will probably want to use Noesis Studio though...

[upbeat storm]

Of course. With Bedrock they had a chance to fix it and decided to torpedo it instead

[granite raptor]

Where does this come from ? I thought friendlist were not going to be implemented on day 1.

[near raptor]

I guess "nowadays" makes it sound like something recent, indeed, it is not

[pine hornet]

Someone needs to create a raytracing mod

[winged ore]

i studied a lot about memory management and networking for this

but i don't feel like i know enough to impress people

[quick kelp]

so noesis is what hytale is gonna use for UI stuff it sounds like? never heard of it

[latent helm]

Actually hard disagree, csharp-ls is surprisingly good. I set up a good config with emacs and I'd rather use it than rider

[fierce fulcrum]

I actually never learned anything about cybersecurity stuff but it must be really funny !
got some friends who went into that direction and they seems to like it a lot

[fast kiln]

BlockBench is achievable to learn. It is not as complicated as blender.

[quick kelp]

that is miles beyond rn, knowing what little i know about graphics programming

[stiff belfry]

😭 Emacs

[dry trellis]

Blockbench's amazing for Hytale tbf

[west elk]

They have 2 other ui systems partially implemented but are working on moving everything over to Neosis since it's more powerful and easier to edit

[quick kelp]

though someone will 100% make one, i imagine more specific stuff with shaders later down the line

[fierce fulcrum]

that's not the important matter ^^

(even though sometime i'd want to impress people but uh i just don't do the right kind of work for that)

[winged ore]

it's very fun, even though my dream has always been game dev

[latent helm]

Emacs is awesome though, it does what I want it to do and I can easily extend it.

[winged ore]

i kinda learned how blender as a tool works, i'm just bad at modeling 😭

[viscid wren]

I had never touched Blockbench before, and was able to work on simple models and skins for Minecraft just by looking around a bit.

[winged ore]

blockbench seems like alot of fun

[fast kiln]

Shaders are really nice to play with!

[stiff belfry]

I didn't noticed it before, but your pfp is the mascot of KDE? Based

[winged ore]

what work do you do?

[viscid wren]

I'd say its a easy to learn hard to master situation? For Blockbench, because you can get quite complex with it, especially with some plugins.

[west elk]

I really like that they plan on allowing pull requests

[fierce fulcrum]

I'm doing research in computer science education, my work is mainly to design and evaluate tool to better teach / learn computer science ^^ (i'm still just an intern but I've already published my first paper (it's nothing but i'm a little bit proud of that :3))

[fast kiln]

Hell yea what is it about ?

[latent helm]

I really want to know how the "shared source" license looks first. If its like the valve source SDK its fine but, hearing shared source gives me Microsoft flashbacks and their ss model has been so binding they could basically sue you as soon as you looked at the code

[winged ore]

oh that sounds so cool, will you be able to send me the paper? i'm lowkey intrested

[static portal]

:3

[fast kiln]

I hope for a beer licence derivat

[fierce fulcrum]

Not sure i want to publicly dox myself there ^^

my second internship was about the creation of some tool to learn computer science through image composition in an online environment
this internship is about an interface for math student to write proofs on the machine in natural language and have a proof checker run on that (not computer science but still education, and actually could be used by cs people)

[rose atlas]

does anyone know what this thing in the launcher they showcased is?

im thinking its a CDN selector..

[fast kiln]

Ah sorry i did not mean the exact title more like the direction

[west elk]

My assumption is username

[static portal]

username/account managment?

[feral oyster]

Sounds like randomly generated username...

it follows the usual spec of {NameA}{NameB}{Numbers}

[rose atlas]

ohh ok

[fierce fulcrum]

Is my answer enough, if you want to chat about that my dms are open :p

[fast kiln]

AI ?

[rose atlas]

Would be cool if they added multiple CDN downloaders... so one doesnt get overwehlemed

[fierce fulcrum]

which part ?

[latent helm]

Account management
TribalOxide goes kinda hard though for a randomly generated name

[feral oyster]

they'll probably use S3 for storage

[rose atlas]

i aint got a clue what a S3 is tbh

[fast kiln]

"write proofs on the machine in natural language and have a proof checker run on"

[fierce fulcrum]

oh no nothing use ai inside that

[fast kiln]

Maybe AWS ?

[fierce fulcrum]

there's a similar project done by a german team who used ai

[feral oyster]

Amazaon S3 is a object storage... i.e. you just upload data to Amazon and don't care about disk space or performance... you just pay AWS to host things for you

[near raptor]

S3 is a tool created to burn money without realizing

[rose atlas]

Oh ok thanks for the info

[fast kiln]

But it is so expensive 🥹

[feral oyster]

Indeed... "Simple Storage Service (that will suck all your money)" - as anything that amazon provides

[fast kiln]

It sounds like a good use case for NLP

[feral oyster]

well yes, they could use other storage providers like cloudflare that have their own S3 compatible implementations etc... but at the end of the day, it's unlikely they'll spin up their own datacenter to host hytale

[quick kelp]

oh dang wait a minute

[near raptor]

Maybe Hypixel got some spare bare metal laying around

[fast kiln]

That is true. Well they come from the MC Server buisness they will probably end at hetzner or something like you said.

[fierce fulcrum]

yes and no
because you always have the problem in eu with the rgpd (the system is purely frontend only, which is a bit of a headache but works)

we also want to be able to display meaningfull error message and have repeatable outcomes which is not really possible with nlp

[edgy kernel]

Object storage via Backblaze is the way

[near raptor]

Object storage via this random HDD I found in a 15 year old PC is the way to go for secure and reliable storage /jk

[edgy kernel]

felt i have 8tb in linux isos on decade old hdds

[tame nexus]

(yikes about the recent CF downtime) but we're a CF R2 sorta storage, cost is nothing and its easy to add into Workers, CDN etc.

[fast kiln]

I think you can make it repeatable. NLP is more than just LLM.

[feral oyster]

Or cloudflare's S3 alternative, iiric they also don't charge egress fees... but hey at the end of the day it'll be some form of object storage simply because presigned URLs for downloads (since hytale will be paid) and/or patching is easy to do that way... and hosting in cloud provides distributed CDN and scalability

[edgy kernel]

i moved away from cloudflare, i'm almost fully selfhosted at this point

[feral oyster]

I'm fully self-hosting but at the same time I'm not hosting something on a scale of hytale lol

[tame nexus]

I only really started with CF R2 etc because they gave us $250k worth of credits for free, good way to try out all the products!

[near raptor]

I imagine that Hytale will be fully powered on Microsoft Azure to help Microsoft pay the bills for Minecraft's infrastructure.

[edgy kernel]

facts i honestly didnt know the context of convo LOL

[fast kiln]

Les go shared proccessing 😂

[feral oyster]

neither do I lol... and pretty sure nobody else does too

[edgy kernel]

backblaze goated tho if yall need pc backups frfr

[feral oyster]

it's hard to lead coherent discussion in this storm of people of varying skill levels and opinions

[fierce fulcrum]

(Didn't knew how well you knew about the subject sorry) yeah effectively we could have gone with some NLP frameworks but i decided not to cause i didn't knew them enough to use them (even though i've assisted to a conference about one) and for our situation it's not that big of a mess to parse because we also want to teach students ways to write math (so we use the fact that the available tactics are limited to make them think about the wording of what they write)

[errant marlin]

Guys, in your opinion what is Slikey meaning when he says that Hytale will use a visual language? Something like Scratch?

[near raptor]

There are like 3 different conversations taking place in one chat, and somehow it kinda works?

[feral oyster]

they say something akin to Unreals' blueprint system... i.e. connecting nodes together with "spagetti" lines

[edgy kernel]

moreso in the context of Unreal Bluepritns

[near raptor]

(and none of the 3 conversations are about Java server plugins atm hah)

[edgy kernel]

or blender texturing LOL

[rose atlas]

we need BOEHMOD TO BRING BACK DECIMINATION

[feral oyster]

something similar to this - source... the blog post

[feral oyster]

obviously this is world-gen related... but same concept applies

[errant marlin]

So like a flow chart?

[fast kiln]

All good 😂 . Is the proofing system like a big state machine or did you use other methods to determine the value of the proofs?

[rose atlas]

Im thinking of developing an "Essentials" like plugin for hytale:

[feral oyster]

I don't think there was ever any single convo about that for more than few messages 😄 😄 hopefully it'll get better once there's something tangible to speak aboout (i.e. docs) etc.

[feral oyster]

you could say that

[errant marlin]

How are they different?

[fast kiln]

Yes

[fierce fulcrum]

The proof is translated to the rocq proof assistant
The natural language is parsed "by hand" with a custom parser implementation that i should clearly define theorically at some point

[feral oyster]

what different to what?

[rose atlas]

Any opinions on this?

[feral oyster]

I'd recommend checking out "unreal blueprint" for some closer references, as blueprints are actually visual scripting language used in unreal engine, so it will provide you better look at what hytale might get one day

[errant marlin]

Is there any difference between a flow chart and what they're proposing?

[edgy kernel]

just please dear god make the formatting prettier

tired of using essentials and it being ugly as hell until i do sum abt it

[dire oasis]

Unsure what utils Hytale will provide by default. But based idea, you could also consider adding more qol like homes, tpa, tp (for staff) and stuff

[near raptor]

I'd probably first wait and see what Hytale ships with by default.

[errant marlin]

Ok thanks

[fast kiln]

You have pre defined Input and Outputs and can only connect nodes when they have the correct inputs and outputs

[rose atlas]

its just brainstorming ideas is all.. nothing official. yeah we gotta see how things work.

[feral oyster]

if I'll be real nitpick then... visually not really although probbly... behind the scenes 100% ... flow chart is just a chart... meanwhile this will be a thing that does something 😄 😄

[errant marlin]

Ok so you have to study what each node needs in input and output but for the rest is similar

[errant marlin]

There are some languages where you can program with flowchart

[fast kiln]

That sounds really cool. I am not that versed in math but programming is something i do regularly. Did you mean by natural language normal math symbols or actual language like "one plus one equals two"

[grizzled frost]

What language or technology would I need to learn if I want to create add-ons for Hytale?

[feral oyster]

as the name suggests it's a visual SCRIPTING... so instead of SCRIPTING/programming using code, you are putting together logical blocks of functionality...

For example you have a node that does "Move Object" or "Rotate object"... you connect the inputs of "This is my object" and "This is how much" and it will do the things

[rose atlas]

Java.

[feral oyster]

java

[fierce fulcrum]

actually we parse inline latex math, we parse sentence like "Let $x$ in $\mathbb{R}$" and we've got a UI to enable easy writing of latex code

[fast kiln]

Yes normally there a like generator nodes that generate a certain output and through other nodes you can change the signal and in the end connect it to objects in the world itself.

[fast kiln]

Ahhh nice. Good old latex.

[errant marlin]

Ok, that's pretty cool. I'll hope they do a great job because I can imagine that this thing is beautiful or your worst nightmare

[zenith mist]

uh i think they mis worded the post XD they said theyre putting the tools out today? is that true?

[fast kiln]

Compiler errors in my documentation lol

[grim acorn]

Hey guys! I’m experimenting with creating some prototype minigame systems in Hytale once tools drop and the game is available.
Right now I’m trying to understand what a realistic team size looks like for building systems + maps. Im a solo dev with 3 builder lol.
Is anyone else here planning similar projects or interested in discussing technical approaches for larger-scale server ideas?

[feral oyster]

no they are not... the only date that was mentioned was "22st" (god knows if they meant 21st or 22nd) and that's only for AMA in #discussion

[errant marlin]

Ok, thank you and @feral oyster for the exhaustive explanation

[feral oyster]

unless I'm missing something

[summer sapphire]

I don’t think team size matters at the start. It’s more about dedication. A solo dev can create a whole mini game and have it be successful with no team at all.

Then you can ramp up if you see interest/when you need it

[errant marlin]

They said they will publish the price this week and the release date next one. I read nothing about tools

[summer sapphire]

Blog post check #announcements

[fast kiln]

If you want to try it before the launch you could play arround with blender or unreal engine node system.

[zenith mist]

yeah, im trying to create an entire gamemiode type with comptitive pvp and clan systems and economy... so i actually have a robust system... im also going to be desiging a AI powered boss with my team XD for world events.

[errant marlin]

Right now I'm tripping over BlockBench

[grim acorn]

Yeah i know, I develop my mc server as a solo dev, but hytale is gonna be a free canvas, and I think speed matters, especially when building more than 1 minigame.

[zenith mist]

so i plan to go deep on server side stuff lmao

[fast kiln]

Good luck 😄

[zenith mist]

thats why im clarifying cus if so where is the downloads haha

asides for block bench obv

[clear lodge]

No tools coming out today, just the blogpost

[west elk]

aw the gitbook page is set to private for now

[tame nexus]

I tried that too haha

[clear lodge]

The header of that section just means “Here’s what’s available already.” not “Tools are out! Go go go”

[twilit phoenix]

Which page?

[west elk]

hytale gitbook io

[summer sapphire]

That’s a good point, but why not focus on one minigame and make it really good and keep updating it?

[grim acorn]

Yeah probably thats gonna be the main goal, not sure what yet, this is gonna be a lot more than minecraft, so simple 1:1 copy of minecraft minigames like skywars or bedwars wont cut it. Especially that u can customize almost everything.

[twilit phoenix]

Given the mobility Hytale offers with weapons like daggers, it's likely that maps for modes like Skywars or Bedwars will need to be larger.

[static portal]

does anyone has idea for question during the AMA?

[jolly relic]

Yo guys, someone already knows if the players will be associated to an UUID? Most probably, right?

[west elk]

has to be yeah

might not be Java's java.util.UUID datastructure, but for sure some sort of guaranteed unique identifier

[spring rivet]

Hello! Just hopped into the channel to avoid the spam of messages in most channels.

A few already asked about a suggestion thread channel in the discord. I was wanting to know if it's possible at some point to have one up for the community, they'd be labeled as suggestions, but i see it as a better way to store and show information, suggestions, concepts from one community member to another. While being able to keep all the messages about that topic within a instanced channel/thread.

This just allows us as modders/community members to communicate to each other more effectively and not to clutter the other text channels.

Below are a few listed things i'd do while setting up the thread channel.

• Make sure in rules of making a thread/description of the thread indicate that even though this is a suggestion form you all may not be able to respond to every suggestion as the team is busy working on hytale, but will do their best to respond when there is time to do so.
• Set the thread channel to a slow repsonse/timed chat so people can not spam suggestion threads and also to prevent threads being filled with message allowing the community member time to digest and read over the chats in these threads.

[white shuttle]

Hey everyone!
I’m looking for people who might be interested in working together—over the time it takes—to create an MMORPG server on Hytale in the coming years.
I’m not the best at English or development, but I have a lot of ideas, especially for MMO-style gameplay!

With a strong community, ambition, and a dedicated team, I truly believe we could turn Hytale into a serious competitor to games like WoW.
If everyone puts in the effort, we can achieve something huge.

So, are you interested in joining the adventure?

[spring rivet]

I wouldn't mind hearing you out or to see what vision you have it. Though I'd also want to know what you will bring to the team.

Also! You are all good on your english. I think that as long as one can communicate in some form of way like text. It should be just fine ^.^

[remote atlas]

I am with Braisen, would love to see too. I am programmer

[white shuttle]

I think it’s too early for all that. I’m probably getting ahead of myself, because after waiting 7 years, I’m just so excited to finally play.

[spring rivet]

Ayy look at that another! An a programmer? What do you enjoy developing or working on?

I fill the role of a facilitator/project manager when it comes to these things.

[white shuttle]

I’ve been trying to learn things like development and 3D modeling, but I’m mostly strong in game design — I’ve always come up with ideas for stuff in Minecraft, and I have a pretty big imagination. So I’d say that, at this point, I’d be more of a game designer.

[spring rivet]

No worries! If you ever get something a bit more fleshed out and wanna reach out to folk again about starting up a team i'm sure we'll all be around and if not there will be plenty more takers.

[white shuttle]

Yeah, thanks. I just think that if Hytale doesn’t flop, it will probably be one of the biggest Minecraft-style sandbox games.

[manic pine]

@agile drum from 'archived' to 'active' and a new pfp, I see you 👀👀👀

[formal burrow]

Vintage Story made hundreds of thousands of dollars just this year from Itch, and that number is public because that's how much they are holding from the VS devs

[remote atlas]

I am mostly a Unity developer, but i have been learning how to do mods for minecraft.

[manic pine]

Quite the downgrade going from c# to java lmao

[summer sapphire]

Not downgrade at all

Why do people just throw stuff around about Java. There’s literally nothing wrong with Java it’s an industry standard language that’s evolving and staying modern, fast and safe

[manic pine]

eh comparing c# with java in 2025 shows that java is still missing quite a few things

[summer sapphire]

Explain?

[drowsy temple]

Hi, everyone! Cant wait to build some cool mods where I'd get to create and control NPCs

[spring rivet]

I'm sure it won't flop! The moment they mentioned their focus was for the modder's when it comes to early access. I think shows their understand of how effective the community can affect the success of a game for the long run.

I'd also like to say for a server trying to surpass wow. I'd take steps into developing it into a better version of wynncraft that exists on minecraft as is and then go after a bigger one.

[spring rivet]

Ohh alright! What games did you mod for? An how do you find the expirence coming from that to minecraft?

[manic pine]

take asynchronous control flows for example, C# does this very well with async/await, but in java you gotta do some real weird stuff
or no getter/setters in java, pretty annoying aswell

[summer sapphire]

No getters/setters…? what?

[twilit phoenix]

That's probably because C# is more beginner-friendly.

[granite saffron]

i wouldn't say that, you can fully mod java unlike c#

[prisma comet]

Will there be some kind of documentation soon for the game's code and for modding or is it already out

[manic pine]

yeah like properties, while in c# you could define a property with a getter and setter, in java you have to implement methods (getXyz() and setXyz(value))

[drowsy temple]

they made a blog about modding recently

[gusty belfry]

I think we should rewrite hytale in rust

[manic pine]

but going from C# to Java isnt as bad as going from TypeScript to PHP so chill, its just a slight syntactical downgrade

[twilit phoenix]

I think it refers to the typical { get; set; } of C#

[manic pine]

of course you can mod c#, unity games are moddable day 1 because its so easy to decompile and inject code

[agile drum]

Haha, wow that was fast! Don't read too much into it though. I think it's unlikely that I'd be able to return - the team has to stay lean and fast. Keeping my eyes peeled though!

[granite saffron]

come on, that's basic stuff and just slightly less convenient, you can't complain about that

[summer sapphire]

I get the built in methods are nice in C# and makes life easier/cleaner, but Java is definitely not lacking in that regard.

We’ve had Lombok for years and we don’t have to do weird stuff to achieve multi threading in Java, it just solves it differently than C# does

[manic pine]

Got my sniffers everywhere, im praying for you tho! Best of luck

[manic pine]

downgrade is a downgrade, even if its ever so small

those are only two examples ive mentioned tho lol, theres more points that i like more about C#

[twilit phoenix]

To be honest, I think Java should add some of Lombok's features in a future version, so it's not necessary to use third-party libraries to reduce boilerplate size.

[summer sapphire]

Agreed, I’m not sure why they don’t already

[prisma comet]

so modding will be in java or c# the blog is written kinda weird

[manic pine]

Java

and visual scripting eventually

[twilit phoenix]

Java, JSON, and visual scripting will be used.

[prisma comet]

why did they use this language...

they couldve chosen c#

[twilit phoenix]

To attract Minecraft developers

[manic pine]

because its easier for the previous (Hypixel Minecraft server) devs

[gusty belfry]

My only real issue with java is that you can't have explicit pointers

[manic pine]

theyve chosen C# for the client

[gleaming violet]

Try kotlin

[granite saffron]

i've never modded in c# but there's some things you can't do as well in c# to mod as you can in java, due to when things happen, though i couldn't tell you what those things are i'd have to do some research

[prisma comet]

but java is inferior to c# when it comes to games no?

[analog sundial]

[manic pine]

yeah that would be the best alternative feature-wise, but the syntax is quite different, its more learning from C# -> kotlin than C# -> Java

[gleaming violet]

Its true

[twilit phoenix]

Given their plans to open-source the server software, I don't think it will take them too long to port it to C#, the modding with .NET 10 would be amazing.

[manic pine]

so youre telling me theres things i cant do in c# that i can do in java but you cant tell me what? idk bout that

[prisma comet]

I hope so because c# is actually readable compared to java

[gleaming violet]

In fact, it doesnt matter which language to use

[sterile tartan]

java and c# are pretty similiar
but you are right c# is more readable

[summer sapphire]

If we’re going to talk about async advantages, we should actually look at virtual threads in Java. C# still relies on OS threads + async/await, while Java can spawn millions of lightweight virtual threads with almost zero overhead. It means you can just write normal blocking code and still get async scalability.

async/await in C# is great, but it’s also just one model of concurrency. With Java, the whole async/await style becomes kind of outdated on the Java side.

Also the JVM outperforms .net in many cases and that’s one reason Java is still a top language for backend

[manic pine]

porting from Java to C# is easier than to any other lang, i think a C# server is more realistic than any other lang and will be the first

[prisma comet]

ofc it doesnt, its purely preference at this point but coding in c# is just better in my opinion

[twilit phoenix]

Yes, it would be strange to see a Rust port appear before a C# port.

[manic pine]

Look, i totally agree with the virtual threads, but my main focus is DX, i just think syntactically Java is inferior to C#

[prisma comet]

and there is no point really is there

[summer sapphire]

Sure that’s a good point

[granite saffron]

well if you want i can go find out what it was, i believe it was class loading and that you're a bit more limited in c# when it comes to that

[summer sapphire]

I also think that’s preference based though

[granite saffron]

this is a terrible reason though, if you're a good programmer syntax doesn't matter much

[manic pine]

trust me, youre not limited, look at any famous unity game, theres mods day 1

[prisma comet]

Languages when it comes to functionality are becoming closer and closer but syntax is what makes them preference based

[manic pine]

weird take, "if youre a good programmer, unreadable code doesnt matter"

[gleaming violet]

Btw you can use lombok in java. And it would be just like @Getter @Setter private int a;

[prisma comet]

not true wdym

[granite saffron]

i don't think a "trust me" is a very good answer without any reasons

[summer sapphire]

I was just saying it’s not fair that Java is a downgrade from C# in the things you brought up. Sure it’s more expressive, but Java is even an upgrade in some senses. They both have pros and cons

[gleaming violet]

There are so many tools in java to make code more readable

[granite saffron]

yes true, unless you're comparing c to some braincrap language it's true

[granite saffron]

you can make java code very well readable, that's on you for not documenting your code properly/ not formatting it right

[prisma comet]

You cannot compare c and c# theyre completely different classes of languages

[manic pine]

i cant elaborate as long as you cant tell me what exactly is limiting in C#, i dont have any idea what youre talking about so i cant argument against it lol

[granite saffron]

i juts gave c as an example, you can take any famous programming language and make the code well readable

[twilit phoenix]

I think the problem is that writing unreadable code in Java is easier than doing it in C#, although this obviously depends on the developer.

[prisma comet]

So were going back to preference, i would rather code in c# than java because syntax is easier to read

[granite saffron]

you're limited to class loading in c#, unlike with java

[manic pine]

surely you can, but all im saying is that C# is syntactically superior to Java and nobody has made a solid point against that

[prisma comet]

i agree with you

[granite saffron]

that's right, it's what kelpy was talking about, preference isn't a good argument as to why it should be in c# and not java

[summer sapphire]

But isn’t that preference though?

[manic pine]

uhhh???? can you elaborate? I dont think this is going anywhere, since you can dynamically load C# classes in runtime

[halcyon mica]

Because people will be but muuhhhh Java

[summer sapphire]

Trueee

[halcyon mica]

You can't make a point against 1+1=2

[dry trellis]

I'm happy that they chose Java! Not because I hate C#, but because I'm just better in Java.

[frail sparrow]

Question: Do you know how to set up a server in Hytale? And how will plugins work?

[halcyon mica]

Wow, you managed to get every point wrong, that takes effort 👌

[prisma comet]

isnt out yet

[summer sapphire]

How exactly am I wrong?

[granite saffron]

well as i said before i don't know much about c# modding, but i heard that there's a lot of static initialization going on, like configs stored in static classes

[frail sparrow]

okay, I was just asking

[dry trellis]

Virtual threads still use OS threads though, otherwise we'd have a "download ram" situation.

[summer sapphire]

You can create hundreds of Virtual Threads without running into OS thread limits though

[manic pine]

as long as you cant pinpoint it, you dont really have a solid argument since i still have no idea what limitation youre talking about, as far as im concerned C# is very limitless when it comes to modding existing code

[halcyon mica]

1. C# does not rely on "OS threads", TPL is actually superior in C# not in Java

2. Java's asynchronous style is verbose and ugly compared to C#'s syntax

3. Just no, please, even Java developers know this is wrong. Java can't even have user defined value types, oh God

[twilit phoenix]

How would that work?

[summer sapphire]

It seems you are wrong here

[halcyon mica]

Yeah, no 🙏

[dry trellis]

I think it's nicer to just say that everyone has their own preferences.
There might be a "client modding", although not supported, community in which C# will be incredibly useful.

[summer sapphire]

I didn’t design “Loom” I think it’s called project Loom. On Java, read about it

[halcyon mica]

Definitely! It's also nice to correct wrong facts

[prisma comet]

True

[manic pine]

well im not really argumenting about the server rather being in c# than java, as it is a good point to make it Java because of the amount of experienced minecraft modders, it just makes sense, im just generally comparing the languages

[granite saffron]

you're right i don't have a solid argument, i'm just letting you know what i'd heard many times before and thought was generally known so that you can factor that in, but i don't know a lot about c# modding, you can still like c# more i'm just letting you know

[halcyon mica]

If it wasn't for that, we could've been blessed with a memory efficient stupid fast server in C#

[manic pine]

wait for source code and give it a couple weeks

[halcyon mica]

I'm in

[twilit phoenix]

What do you mean by "user defined value types"?

[summer sapphire]

You are wrong, I believe. You’re definitely wrong about Java, but I’m not too experienced with C#.

This is what I got from a quick google search about C# though:
“Yes, C# relies on OS threads. When you create a Thread object in C# or use higher-level constructs like Tasks that involve computational work, the .NET runtime (CLR) ultimately utilizes the underlying operating system's threading mechanisms.”

[halcyon mica]

Everything has to be heap allocated in Java because memory is a gift from God apparently. You can't define your own "struct" and have it stack allocated for avoiding GC for example

[halcyon mica]

quick google search
🥀

Thread pool: Am I a joke to you?

[prisma comet]

Why is java so memory greedy tho anyway?

[dry trellis]

To be fair, everything that runs in parallel relies on OS threads.

[halcyon mica]

Bad decisions lead to that

[manic pine]

because its running chromium 🥁

[prisma comet]

As i know c# is dynamic when it comes to memory but seems like java needs a set amount for jvm?

[halcyon mica]

Currently Java has no chance against C#, but that might change when Valhalla is released, but that's a question for another day

[rose atlas]

allocating 32gb of ram to my hytale server 🔥

[summer sapphire]

Also I believe JVM factually outperforms .NET for long running programs

[summer sapphire]

You just throw things out there with no explanation or context

[halcyon mica]

No. Where are you even getting this from

[dry trellis]

I do have a question, and please correct me if I'm wrong since the last time I have used C# is uh like ~4 years ago.
But thread pools still rely on OS threads in C# right?

[summer sapphire]

Please do your research

[prisma comet]

That i heard of yeah but it comes with caveats, like the fact that javas gc isnt always perfect and the memory alloc goes up constantly

[halcyon mica]

Do you not know project Valhalla?

[twilit phoenix]

I don't think you need more if the server is small.

[dry trellis]

C# doesn't have a system that parks and unparks threads like Java does.
-# Once again, not completely sure ;p

[rose atlas]

i was saying that as a joke tbh

[twilit phoenix]

ik

[halcyon mica]

Everything relies on OS threads if you're dealing with threads

[twilit phoenix]

Isn't that freezing the thread?

[halcyon mica]

With all due respect, if you don't even know what project Valhalla is, you might be the one who needs to do their own research

[dry trellis]

For sure, but in this case virtual threads essentially just park and unpark while waiting so they don't block an OS thread.

[halcyon mica]

So does the thread pool

[dry trellis]

Not if it's running a blocking operation right?

[halcyon mica]

It's a pool

[manic pine]

I've asked grok for a comparison

Basic Thread Creation: Java's Virtual Threads are lightweight; C# threads are OS-backed (heavyweight).
Thread Management: Similar basics, but Java virtual threads can't change priority or be non-daemon.
Synchronization: C# offers more async-friendly variants (e.g., SemaphoreSlim.WaitAsync()); Java's synchronized can pin virtual threads temporarily.
Thread Pools: Java discourages pooling virtual threads (cheap to create); C# relies on pools for scalability.
Async Programming: C# async/await is more concise; Java uses futures or virtual threads for similar effects without "function coloring."
High-Level Concurrency: TPL (Task Parallel Library C#) excels in data parallelism; Java's concurrent package is more low-level but scalable with virtual threads.
Scalability: Java's virtual threads shine in I/O-bound apps; C# tasks are efficient but require explicit async.
Memory Overhead: Java wins for massive concurrency; C# tasks mitigate but don't match virtual thread efficiency.

If you're building responsive apps with mixed I/O and CPU work (e.g., web APIs, games), C#'s async/await and TPL make development faster and cleaner—especially in .NET ecosystems. For high-scale servers or microservices handling massive concurrency, Java's Virtual Threads provide unbeatable efficiency without code changes. Both are excellent; the choice often boils down to your platform (Windows/.NET vs. cross-platform JVM) and existing codebase. If coming from C#, note Java's model feels more "transparent" for legacy sync code, while C# prioritizes explicit control.

[halcyon mica]

A blocking thread won't blocking the whole pool

[manic pine]

cant really say one is better than the other, its probably rather case by case

[halcyon mica]

🥀
What was the prompt

[manic pine]

"compare C# threading with Java threading pros and cons"

[dry trellis]

That's not what I'm asking though. I think you're misunderstanding me.
In this case, Java's virtual thread system is capable of parking a thread while running a blocking operation, which a ThreadPool cannot do in C# if I'm correct.
-# But yeah, please correct me with sources if I'm wrong.

[summer sapphire]

They both have their trade offs, and yes, Java is definitely better or long running or high throughput apps. Better for higher scale

Starlk just started stating things like they’re facts without providing and reasoning

[halcyon mica]

I just asked ChatGPT and it said Java's threads are heavier! That's why I hate asking AI

Short answer: C# Tasks are generally “better” than Java’s classic Threads — but only because they’re higher-level. They aren’t directly comparable.

Here’s the straightforward breakdown:

✔ C# Tasks

• Built on the Task Parallel Library and async/await.
• Represent work rather than OS threads.
• Use a thread pool automatically and schedule intelligently.
• Much easier for asynchronous and concurrent programming.
• Less boilerplate, fewer bugs, more scalable for I/O-heavy workloads.

✔ Java Threads

• Represent actual OS threads.
• Low-level, heavier, and more manual.
• Fine-grained control but requires more work to avoid pitfalls.

👉 The fair comparison is:

• C# Task ≈ Java CompletableFuture / ExecutorService
• C# async/await ≈ Java CompletableFuture + virtual threads (Project Loom)

Straight verdict:

• Yes, C# Tasks are “better” than raw Java threads for most modern development.
• But Java with CompletableFuture or Loom virtual threads is roughly equivalent in power and ergonomics.

If you want, I can give a quick code comparison to show the difference.

[summer sapphire]

Java has both threads and virtual threads

[halcyon mica]

You are not ought to use threads in C# but to use Tasks

[dry trellis]

Could you ask the specific AI model about "virtual threads" since that's what we're talking about here.

[summer sapphire]

Notice your ai is referring to classic threads

[halcyon mica]

So do you, that's why you should've done your research on C#'s tasks

[manic pine]

well yeah the comparison was between threading, not c# task vs java threads so that might also have a difference

[summer sapphire]

There isn’t any 1:1 C# comparison to virtual threads

[dry trellis]

I have a feeling @halcyon mica is ragebaiting us all

[summer sapphire]

I think he was just misinformed. It’s okay though, we all are to some extent

[halcyon mica]

I wish I was, but I'm sharing facts. If that's considered as ragebait then I quit

[summer sapphire]

You can’t argue with close minded people

[halcyon mica]

I think we all are open to different views 🙏

[dry trellis]

No worries, it might be a misunderstanding from my end.

[summer sapphire]

There’s a reason why the backend world is Java heavy. Look at Netflix’s infrastructure for an example if you’d like

[karmic night]

Java heavy, if you take out PHP

[halcyon mica]

Well StackOverflow uses .NET, no point here

[summer sapphire]

Stack overflow doesn’t have traffic like Netflix

[mystic bone]

Prob why it overflowed hehe

[halcyon mica]

I'm afraid that you and @.og_ali think threads == async/await which is a very common misconception

[manic pine]

but honestly guys, i think the performance difference we're talking about is marginal at best, they archive the same goal and i dont think +-20ms on a world generation task/thread is critical

[halcyon mica]

I believe it'll be bigger especially with more memory efficiency!

[karmic night]

+- 20ms on a world generation task is absolutely critical what are you talking about

[manic pine]

depends on the chunk size

[summer sapphire]

Please explain again? Java doesn’t have async/await, I don’t think that. Java just said forget about that stupid outdated model, use a cheap thread to avoid blocking instead

[manic pine]

i dont, ive just previously compared java syntax to c# syntax

[prisma comet]

A chunky like mod is gonna come out in less than 2 weeks anyway so why do we worry about that lol

[clear lodge]

First screenshot of Hytale java code posted by Ktar!

[manic pine]

send it in

[dry trellis]

I think he meant C# tasks with async and await, but I could be wrong.

[prisma comet]

Send it

[halcyon mica]

Well that doesn't make for a comparison then, does it?

[clear lodge]

Can’t send links

[prisma comet]

where did the post it? X?

[summer sapphire]

No, which is why all I was arguing is that you can’t say Java is a downgrade from c#

They’re just different

[clear lodge]

Search Slikey’s tweets who mentions Ktar

[halcyon mica]

How is it not?

[karmic night]

X: Ktar5

[wise imp]

How long till Ae2 is remade in Hytale

[summer sapphire]

Consider me rage baited, I feel like we’re going in circles. Just spend some time researching

[manic pine]

i think you can send screenshots tho

[halcyon mica]

Here's my point, let us beat it. C# is better in memory than Java, prove me wrong

[karmic night]

Here's an example of what can easily be done in a few minutes with server side UI modding. In Game vs. UI Markup Asset vs. Java mod code. All work together to create a powerful server-side UI toolkit available at launch in Hytale.

[prisma comet]

Cant argue with that

[summer sapphire]

I can’t, there’s no context here. It depends on scale and other factors probably

[dry trellis]

Gotta love this.

[karmic night]

Lmfao

[prisma comet]

I hate the jetbrains ui

[manic pine]

i think the ui code is being generated by the UI editor, i dont think we need to manually touch that luckily

[karmic night]

I love this .getAssetMap().getAssetMap()

[prisma comet]

"Don't repeat yourself" in action

[halcyon mica]

I say, C# is superior because it allows for more fine tuning in memory usage by allowing for stack allocation, pointer usage, and more. What do you say?

[dry trellis]

It looks nice though! It's amazing what you can accomplish in Hytale.

[worn tartan]

yeah they definitely followed that "dont repeat yourself" rule
yeah they definitely followed that "dont repeat yourself" rule

[karmic night]

Guys please stop replying to my message 😂

I keep getting pings

[manic pine]

guys i think my code has dementia
guys i think my code has dementia
guys i think my code has dementia

[dry trellis]

Woops, sorry.

[prisma comet]

I hope they will refactor it at some point

its still a prototype like code

[manic pine]

i honestly dont think the shown code is something we would ever be touching

[summer sapphire]

I’m not experienced enough with c# to know to be honest. But one thing doesn’t make it a better language overall, that’s all I mean.

But again, there’s trade offs, especially at large scale. Which means, no better or worse… just different use cases

[prisma comet]

Yeah dealing with a function that calls a function that is named the same is... confusing

[halcyon mica]

Assuming the server source will be openly available, what will it be licensed under?

[prisma comet]

Server source will be open i think

[manic pine]

great question, wrong guy to ask lmao

[prisma comet]

Dunno about client tho

[halcyon mica]

If anyone knows

Just curious

[prisma comet]

I mean they SUPPORT modding in a way that will make the game be alive so it SHOULD be open

[dry trellis]

I think it'll be source-available and not necessarily open-source.

[karmic night]

This whole discussion about Java vs C# just makes me think this server already just needs a dev-general or smth channel

[dry trellis]

But I could be wrong.

[prisma comet]

Like every server that has atleast 2 coders in it

[summer sapphire]

Yeah I think shared source they said. But I believe they might have code bounties so you could possibly contribute in the future

[hearty surge]

Or hear me out Java script plugins just to piss everyone off

[manic pine]

i just really wonder how exactly client code will be done, like sure, most stuff needs to be serversided and gets communicated over to the client, but in the simple case of smoothly rotating a player around, that should happen clientside, how do we actually code that part? hmmm

[prisma comet]

That would be so cool, actually contributing to the project

[summer sapphire]

I KNOW!!

That’s so exciting, imagine having your feature in the official game!

[manic pine]

everyone profits of this

[prisma comet]

exactly

I mean its also free portfolio

[karmic night]

You set the rotation every tick (lol), or send a new rotation with a bool to interpolate, just speculating how it could work though.

[prisma comet]

Is there any other way...

[summer sapphire]

The server sends packets to the client and vise versa

[manic pine]

that just sounds like wasted bandwidth

[prisma comet]

Im not experienced with game programming so i wouldnt know

[hearty surge]

I hope it’s
Pure nms based just to make everyone happy

[karmic night]

Hence my (lol)

[summer sapphire]

So you can make a client do things or show the client things or whatever you want really

[dry trellis]

Not sure if you've ever seen Minecraft display entities, but it could work similarly to those.

[manic pine]

not a true solution to this specific problem, due to latency, it wouldnt be smooth but more like what a minecraft server would try to do a cinematic camera (its choppy)

[hearty surge]

I hope not Minecraft does it so poorly

[prisma comet]

Just add smoothness client side maybe

[dry trellis]

The general idea could be the same though, like you send a new location and provide the duration of how long the interpolation should take.

[hearty surge]

Yes but theirs better ways to do it now

[manic pine]

yeah but how, we currently dont know how clientside code really is done, thats the big question

[summer sapphire]

I get what you mean. That might just be the trade off they’re taking

[summer sapphire]

They said no one is allowed to modify the client atm. That’s their vision

[hearty surge]

But at the same time hypixel just bandaid fixes everything never the root problem so who knows ngl

[prisma comet]

We wont know probably, they didnt say anything about modding client (besides that it will not be officially supported)

[dry trellis]

For sure, and I'm really interested in how they'll be doing it.

[prisma comet]

The project started as semi casual so it will stay semi casual

[summer sapphire]

Or at least they don’t want multiple modded clients* they just want one official Hytale one

[manic pine]

i think they mean to disallow externally modding the client, not "officially" by the server

[karmic night]

Like what? This is literally how every game ever does motion over network, it's always interpolated lmfao

[hearty surge]

He’s talking about how mc does it in Java

[dry trellis]

Well, not really. Minecraft cinematics can be incredibly smooth since you have "teleportDuration" on display entities, which interpolate the PosRot.
But I have seen that they're planning on providing cinematic tools, and with that most likely some utils to interpolate other stuff aswell (hopefully).

[summer sapphire]

You’re asking how does one mod the client through the server?

[hearty surge]

Theirs better ways now

[karmic night]

Again, like WHAT

[prisma comet]

Lets hope it wont be as bad as it is in cs2

[manic pine]

yup, since we're only using Java and json in that regard

[dry trellis]

Modding the client won't officially be supported.

[karmic night]

I saw the CS:GO vs CS2 animation video the other day, it's so hilariously bad

[summer sapphire]

If so, I believe the only way to communicate to the client from the server is through packets. And for things like assets, etc. we have the json that the server will force the client to download. Kinda like Minecraft resource packs

[prisma comet]

Interpolation is broken to this day

[dry trellis]

There's four confirmed categories: "server plugins, data assets, art assets and prefab/world assets"

[prisma comet]

With high ping its almost unplayable

[manic pine]

i mean i dont see how the client shouldnt be able to run some sort of code, especially considering UI state management
you dont wanna network 100% of this through the server for no good reason, thats extremely inefficient

[karmic night]

The issue with CS2 is that the legs aren't actually animated in a traditional sense like they are in CSGO, the entire leg animation in CS2 is procedural IK animation. This is why the legs suddenly snap back underneath the character when you start moving in the opposite direction.

Only the upper body is actually animated iirc.

[prisma comet]

It aint only about the legs, upper body isnt where its supposed to be sometimes

[hearty surge]

Minecraft doesn’t buffer side packets and with the 1tick updates it’s slower than most modern games 1 ticket isn’t long but it’s longer than it needs to me

[prisma comet]

I wonder how many tick will the hytale servers support

[hearty surge]

I haven’t looked anywhere what’s hytales lang

[prisma comet]

64, 20 or what

[karmic night]

I expect something like 20, there's not much reason to go higher for a game like this

[hearty surge]

I hope 60 ngl

[karmic night]

Why?

[hearty surge]

Theirs more movement here tho so 20 would look slower than needed

[karmic night]

?????????????????????

[prisma comet]

16.5ms updates would be nice

[hearty surge]

60 would allow them to make stuff look ALOT better and smoother

[karmic night]

Bro what are you saying

[prisma comet]

compared to 50

[hearty surge]

60 is overkill af since fort is 30

[manic pine]

60 will be a servers downfall lmao

[prisma comet]

but fortnite is weird in its concept

[hearty surge]

But this as someone said it’s a casual project for the devs

[summer sapphire]

Hmmm, here’s the thing, the clients render the UI, etc. but the server NEEDS to give the client the state. Sure the client will render it, but there needs to be one source of truth for all players… the server

Even without modding this would be necessary

[manic pine]

so if the player clicks a button to open a menu, the state that this menu is open wont be saved in the client but instead in the server which needs to handle this state for every player? idk about that

[karmic night]

What part of this do you expect will be inefficient? I suspect you're thinking about it the wrong way.

[prisma comet]

networking stuff i suppose

[manic pine]

yeah, networking

[karmic night]

Yes, this is normal. Just like how in Minecraft you can get what screen a player has open.

The client requests permission from the server to open the inventory for example, and the server being authoritative has the right to say allowed or denied. Then the client opens or doesn't open the interface, and the server knows the player has the inventory open.

[manic pine]

but what if the shown menu has no relevance to being networked? such as a personalized UI theme color you can set, theres no need to network that for every player

i could think of many such cases

sounds like an unneccessary overhead to me

[summer sapphire]

No, the server doesn’t need to know you have a menu open. It just needs to know the state of the menu to properly display its state to all players.

• Player clicks “chest” → client opens the inventory menu locally.
• Server only needs to know about inventory changes, like “player picked up item X” or “item Y was removed.”
• The client handles the visual state of the menu, highlights, scroll positions, etc., so the server isn’t burdened with storing every UI detail.

[karmic night]

^

The server will still most likely know you have a menu and which menu open, though.

[summer sapphire]

Yeah, I’m not sure, maybe they want that too

[karmic night]

So you can run a in Paper/Spigot/Bukkit terms event.setCancelled(true); on there and deny the opening of an interface

[summer sapphire]

Ohh yeah, like the server needs to know you have a UI open for the inventory close event

[manic pine]

Right, thats how its supposed to be, but how do we configure this behavior clientside? Since we have seemingly no way of creating clientside logic, how do we configure what to network and what not to network

[manic pine]

its essentially the same problem as this

[west elk]

We can't create clientside logic, but we can compose it from native building blocks

[karmic night]

What do you mean with client side logic? I'm going to need some specificity or we'll be talking in circles all day long.

[summer sapphire]

I’m not sure if I understand the question, but I feel like you have a good point here. Do you mind rephrasing or providing an example?

[west elk]

Color picker preview for example. If there isn't a native building block for it, an update has to go to the server and back

[rose atlas]

Servers and singleplayer have no difference,, they are both the same thing. when u create a world, its ur server, where ur plugins and mods load onto... and u can modify values without needing to touch the client yourseslf..

[manic pine]

thanks, this made it so much easier, exactly this

[summer sapphire]

You mean if you wanted to add a new component which is a color picker, how is it done?

[manic pine]

uhhhhhhhhh i dont think we're on the same page here lmao

[rose atlas]

me too xD

[manic pine]

nope, hold on

[karmic night]

I still don't understand what the supposed issue is?

[rose atlas]

What are we even talking about

[summer sapphire]

We’re trying to figure Hytale stuff out before it comes out for no reason. Just because it’s fun. It may very well be nothing like we imagine

[rose atlas]

about what specifically?

[summer sapphire]

I’m trying to see, I’m waiting for Kelpy to send an example

[manic pine]

imagine you have this said color picker on an ui element which gets displayed on the client. Let's say the color picker just updates the client's UI color. This color picker has NO server relevance, theres NO point in transmitting this state to the server and back, that causes a unneccessary network overhead.
Since we can't use client logic, we can't really save this color picker state and apply the color to the UI locally and thats where the problem lies. It looks like we NEED to go through the server to set something to the client thats not relevant to anybody else

i dont know how to explain it any better honestly

now imagine 60 players updating their UI colors constantly lol

networking nightmare

this example translates great 1:1 to other issues such as rotating the player smoothly constantly

[west elk]

In the best case, you can connect the native color picker with the ui color. Then the client knows to update one thing when the other thing changes

[karmic night]

Dude, you're going to be sending way more information that is only relevant for that player to the server than just a "UI color"

[west elk]

If you need the ui to be able to do something it can't, just let them know and they'll see how to make it happen

[karmic night]

It's pointless to worry about such things. When you save your preference for Dark or Light mode on Twitter, that is not relevant for anyone else either, but it's still sent to the server and saved in the database as opposed to only stored on your browser.

Not to mention if 60 players adjusting their UI color simultaneously would pose any sort of problem for a game server there are bigger things to be worried about than this. 😂

[manic pine]

the UI color was only an example to explain the root problem

[karmic night]

There is no root problem

That's what I'm trying to explain, this is a normal thing

You're worrying about micro-optimizations which could very well do more harm, in the grand scheme of things, than good.

[summer sapphire]

That’s what I was trying to say also. It is a normal thing… that doesn’t mean it’s not a drawback. It is, it’s a draw back of server sided modding, it’s not a problem though

[manic pine]

Perhaps, I guess ill have to see for myself eventually

[karmic night]

Look at it like this, realistically why would the server send the player anything that is not of relevance to the server itself?

[summer sapphire]

At scale, yes, it would pose big issues, that’s why we have different server scaling strategies. Horizontal vs Vertical. You’re gonna run out of bandwidth or ram or cpu power eventually. You need to scale.

[karmic night]

If the server shows you an interface with the color picker, it's because the server wants to do something with the result of that choice

[west elk]

No it might be because it wants the client to have something nice to look at

[karmic night]

Which is why (assumption) the UI and how to render it will be part of the client files downloaded from the server, which the server then tells the client to open screen "UiThemeColorPickerScreen" or whatever

[summer sapphire]

Let’s keep the UI example:
You have two UI themes on your server and you want to allow players to change. The server would only be telling the client to download and apply X UI

[manic pine]

yeah, coming from unity, I don't network everything to the server essentially, I get to decide what to do, but I guess I'm just not inside the mindset of doing 100% logic server side lol

[karmic night]

Correct, because you have no, and should not have, any control over the client of a player

I would be very worried if an arbitrary server I connect to could run code on my machine lmfao

[manic pine]

I mean I understand it, it's merely an optimization after all, making a dedicated solution for this such as Clientside code might be overkill

[manic pine]

Eh ever played garrys mod? Lmao

[karmic night]

It's overkill and a huge security risk

[summer sapphire]

I think you’re coming at it from a game dev perspective vs a game modder perspective

[karmic night]

Yeah, I have, not a point in your favour 😂

[manic pine]

I know and I might have been part of the reason, ts was a daily zero day

I gave up on Lua tho

[karmic night]

Lua is a disgusting language

For that reason alone I'm glad we're back to the old engine