server-plugins-read-only

[hollow dust]

I host everything on a laptop i run 24/7 with a i5-8265U. Hopefully thats enough for hytale

[pulsar obsidian]

At least they'd attempt to make it Scaleable properly, which is already a pain the arse in Mnecraft

[simple geyser]

Do we know yet what language the mods/plugins will be written in?

[manic pine]

i kinda stumbled upon your portfolio and was super intrigued honestly, i was so intrigued that i never dared to text you on steam lmao

so not a huge suprise seeing you here 👀

[true socket]

we dont have the full picture of what will be supported but we know atleast for a fact you can extend the server with java

[static portal]

same! on a i5-7200U (and a gtx 950M if needed)

[formal burrow]

By the way: Did you guys know RAM is EXTREMELY expensive right now because of people running hefty AI Models that require RAM? 32GB of DDR5 RAM is $300

[agile drum]

haha, yeah I never mentioned that bit did I 👀 I'd love to work on the game again. we'll see...

[static portal]

gen ai is still ruining everything as i see

[hollow dust]

Is DDR5 necessary

[static portal]

meh
depend on your usecase

[frozen crown]

mmm

[formal burrow]

likely a gimmick to get people to stop reusing RAM

[barren hare]

Yeah please help I wanted to finally do a new pc config after 8 years

[mossy cloak]

I need help for create web hub for plugins. DM

[formal burrow]

buy a Steam Deck when black friday hits

[barren hare]

But I wanted to finally start playing solo games in 2K

[hollow dust]

If you are making a new gaming PC its probably best to use old parts because the games that require new hardware are unoptimized anyway

[simple geyser]

How do we know for sure? Was it published?

[barren hare]

When you talk about old part you talk about my PC or old part on the market ?

[manic pine]

i did scroll through the members list when i first joined today and was hoping to see you, best of luck, honestly! Yellows in this server are literal divines to me, and i totally see you back on there!

[hard walrus]

should actually have the capability for completely custom server software, so 100% control

[static portal]

yes

[true socket]

yes, its well known the server is written in java and will be source available

[hollow dust]

I just mean buy like 20 or 30 series nvidia GPUs or 5 year old CPUs

[true socket]

i believe there will also be a scripting langauge available but we dont know what it is, a lot of people are suspecting JS/TS but no confirmation

[hidden yarrow]

Time to rewrite it in Rust 😂

[frozen crown]

I rather not deal with lifeteams in a game engine

[manic pine]

time to rewrite it in JS, because everything nowadays runs on JS lmao

[hidden yarrow]

No need for lifetimes tbh. You could use ECS engine for parallel data access queries

[manic pine]

16 TB ssd dedicated for node_modules

[hidden yarrow]

Nah, more like ALL JS tools are being rewritten to Rust/Go

[storm minnow]

and one package vulnerability away from distributed disaster

[cold wigeon]

tbh if they have a good protocol documentation, then the server could be made in any language :p

[true socket]

we do NOT need hytale written in rust lol

[manic pine]

yeah the tools behind it, so it makes using JS even faster lmao

[hidden yarrow]

Well I do

[true socket]

threading is hard enough in java i do not want any async rust

[barren hare]

Wanted to make a config with a ryzen 7 7800 x3d paired with a 7900xt and 32 gigs

[frozen crown]

mmm yes

[static portal]

true
should it still be done? YES

[frozen crown]

rsbuilt, oxlint, rspack, biome, etc

[barren hare]

Revenge on life computer for me ahah

[true socket]

no it should not lol java is fast enough

[static portal]

its not about fast
its about RUST

[true socket]

i mean if anyone wants to write the server in rust for fun go ahead but like uhhhhhh idk good luck

[manic pine]

my rust is a bit rusty honestly

[barren hare]

Not sure that rust is modding friendly for new modders

[frozen crown]

i am a rustacian and i am against hytale being in rust

[cinder moat]

the only reason people complain about java having bad performance is because notch was a terrible programmer and people seem to think that the language itself has the same flaws

[true socket]

jvm is kinda delicious

[static portal]

espcially when you remove all security feature and alloc thing yourself using UNSAFE

[cinder moat]

thats rust???

[manic pine]

yeah, minecraft java really isnt known for being an optimized game at all lmao

[static portal]

java has an UNSAFE class

[cinder moat]

Fortunately its possible to optimize the game to run on a potato

[true socket]

rust is cool and everything but rewriting a hytale server in rust is pointless

[manic pine]

unless you want to use shaders

[cinder moat]

See Eaglercraft. It's so radically optimized that it'll run on a friggin potato

[true socket]

whats eaglercraft

[cinder moat]

blob did you gain dementia

[simple geyser]

Let me see if I understand... Are you telling me that the servers will be created in Java? Just like the plugins?

[true socket]

LOL

[hidden yarrow]

This is my voxel engine written in Rust. Everything including chunk gen is made in parallel

[manic pine]

you know who else has dementia?

you know who else has dementia?

you know who else has dementia?

[cinder moat]

I only bring it up because you're here blob

[drowsy sable]

Do you think the Hytale servers will be single-threaded or multi-threaded?

[static portal]

a transcompiled(? it take java and make it JS) to JS minecraft

[inland stone]

hey man erm I'm not sure that's how grass looks irl...

[manic pine]

hytale 2.0

[manic pine]

im not sure either, havent looked outside in quite a few

[cinder moat]

its sarcasm he runs an eaglercraft server

[static portal]

nice! you did the exact same thing as minecraft

[inland stone]

it would be stupid if it's single threaded in this day and age, I highly doubt it

[true socket]

what is a blob craft

[hidden yarrow]

It's WIP lol. I have been trying to implement proper 512x textures with PBR pipeline and had to revert it to take a screenshot so UVs are messed up

[pulsar obsidian]

Eaglercraft is on WASM now iirc

[inland stone]

haha 512x huh that's a lot, sounds cool

[pulsar obsidian]

It before was made in Java and converted to JavaScript

[cinder moat]

WebAssembly now. It's transpiled from java bytecode to WASM using TeaVM.

[pulsar obsidian]

Yeah

[cinder moat]

its still in java

[true socket]

i mean its been closed for a while now

[formal burrow]

On launch day it'll be a moment of truth whether Hytale's server is gonna be multithreaded

[cinder moat]

then why do you still have the blobcraft role 💀

[true socket]

shush

[static portal]

how many exececutor would it uses? mc has 2 main one (that is used to create more for each dim)

[cinder moat]

blobcraft 2

[static portal]

3* request to mojang server has its own iirc

[formal burrow]

No idea lol but hopefully Hytale's team figures out how to multihread the server jar

the multipaper/folia projects are practically held up by one dude

cause it'll suck for either of them to go through this again

[true socket]

blobcraft v2 kinda died when the hard drive in its dedi failed

[static portal]

there is also MCMT fabric for fabric (and i have my forge part that barly works)

[true socket]

who knows maybe il make a blobtale lol

[cinder moat]

forge sux

[static portal]

that sound like an undertale AU lmao, why not HyBlob?

[static portal]

recent version are pretty good

[true socket]

because my minecraft server was called blobcraft when it was open so like blobtale kinda just fits

[cinder moat]

neoforge doesn't change the fact that it eats an absurd amount of ram

[true socket]

i eat an absurd amount of ram

[cold wigeon]

hightale

[cinder moat]

you shouldn't need to allocate 12 gigs of ram to a minecraft client with 200 mods

[static portal]

that isn't caused by forge tho? they barly store anything new

[true socket]

nah just allocate 100gb and watch g1gc die

[cinder moat]

they rebuild and stitch everything in memory when you start the game

[manic pine]

whats your guys' first modding project?

I'm thinking of remaking baldurs gate 3 mechanics in hytale and just call it orbis gate lmao

[cinder moat]

fabric doesn't have this issue, which is why it doesn't take a krillion years to boot and doesn't use much ram

[static portal]

yes and when you log on a server because they use their own registery, they howerver only store pointer object, they aren't the one using the memory

[static portal]

the ram doesn't change

[static portal]

im not sure, i hesitate between a compatibility layer for mc server and implementing VS2

but i will mostly mess around with the code at the start

[magic nebula]

It's going to be multi threaded, the main question is to what granularity

[manic pine]

whats VS2? compatibility layer for mc sounds like a quite huge project lmao

id wait for servers to stabilize before writing a compatibility layer because im sure the structure is bound to change eventually

[static portal]

Valkerien skies 2, most of it is abstratced to work on baiscly anything that uses voxel and chunks

[waxen marlin]

with how many failed bukkit fabric compatibility layers there have been among others, cross game sounds tough. Though I'm here for it.

[formal burrow]

ALSO quick question: How do you use OpenAI/Claude in Intellij

[manic pine]

oh right! well that totally depends on how limited we are with modding clientside. I mean technically since its C#, we could also enhance capabilities but thats not how youre supposed to mod officially

[abstract patrol]

modding client side is not going to be officially permitted at least that was the original stance

[waxen marlin]

it's java. It'll happened permitted or not.

[static portal]

yeah, unless we can have block in any rotation and place its unlikely to be possible without modding the client

[magic nebula]

I've investigated into making compatibility layers before for Minecraft to non Minecraft things and it sucks a lot

[manic pine]

client is C#

[midnight sonnet]

I recall them saying long time ago that all mods will run server side

[waxen marlin]

oh really?

[static portal]

client is in c# but same thing with modding

[abstract patrol]

yes that is correct

[manic pine]

i was thinking more of entities instead of blocks, you cant really rotate blocks freely in a voxel grid

[abstract patrol]

the server is in java. the client is in c#

[static portal]

but how would colision be done?

[waxen marlin]

new here, i misread that annoucenement it does say that.

[static portal]

VS2 uses chunk outside of the world border and load them

[main moon]

I dont think there is multi-threading, he is basically suggesting a Redis shared server

[manic pine]

well, entities such as npcs surely also have some sort of collision boxes, im sure its possible somehow

[hidden yarrow]

I plan to do GPU acceleration soon. Currently the chungen is so fast it is bottlenecked by streaming speed to VRAM, so I plan to generate chunks in compressed format to stream data. On the picture is MC equivalent of 64 chunk render distance.

[main moon]

I meant there might be multi-threading but not in what we would expect

[waxen marlin]

this is baically folia, and it's a nightmare for 1:1 game mechanics, forget paper being bad. I know bigger servers have their own much older tech to do the same thing. That said hytale is much newer and these "vanilla alternating behaviors" are really less important, especially if the game evolves around that from day one.

[true socket]

ok fair enough its mostly single threaded thats fine

kinda what i expected

you can still run a few hundred players on a heavily optimised single threaded server, it will depend how well optimised the server software is

[abstract patrol]

i wonder if they are going to open source the server protocol so people could add custom servers in a different language

[waxen marlin]

really, for logic, it's easiest to seperate chunk serving, then networking, followed by entities somewhat. Redstone and world logic stuff in minecraft is where it gets messy, and that's the reason for multi server, which is honesty a fine solution

[pulsar obsidian]

Guys, any idea how C2ME Achieved World Terrain Gen via GPU Acceleration, could such a implementation be possibly be possible and more importantly, practical and necessary in Hytale ??

[true socket]

the server will be source available within some months so yes you will be able to reimplement the protocol

[grim flare]

hi

[manic pine]

i wonder if theres a vanilla redstone equivalent in Hytale

[static portal]

funfact: that what bedrock did
but no it won't be like that

[waxen marlin]

we'll know more about that when the server software is availible. Who knows maybe they just multithreaded chunk loading out of the gate.

[abstract patrol]

i was thinking if like they'd make it stable though kind of how minecraft bedrock has it. where the protocol itself is kind of fixed

[abstract patrol]

yeah exactly u caught my drift

[waxen marlin]

and if they didnt multithread chunk loading that will be one of the earliest server side mods lol

[pulsar obsidian]

I'm talking about GPU Accelerated Terrain Generation.. C2ME mod achieved that somehow.

[static portal]

isn't c2me open source?

[waxen marlin]

oh, i use c2me on my server, but cpu only. It's very scalable on cpu

[magic nebula]

This really isn't practical/needed

[waxen marlin]

yes it is open source, and ishland has personally fixed issues in it for me, pretty cool person

yea GPU chunk loading is kinda dumb, cpu as long as it scales is plenty. Really the limitation is if you need the max single core performance cpu you're looking at consumer sockets which will top out at like 16 cores, vs slwoer per core epycs and stuff

[blissful egret]

GPU chunk loading makes sense if you're the one hosting the server

[waxen marlin]

but really these days you have good ssds and multi threaded loading paper or c2me, you can have 100 players screaming around on elytras loading just fine

[static portal]

chunk loading is slow because of storage and ram speed, gen is a bit more intensive so make sense

[waxen marlin]

no, it really does not. Your hosting options suddenly get limited to either very expensive or colocation for something that can be accomplished on cpu with plenty of room to spare. Remember, especially in the case of not having folia or a closed source version of the same, you're not using your whole cpu, you have threads to spare for days.

[blissful egret]

oh crap I meant world gen oops

[waxen marlin]

pregeneration?

yea, I get about 500 chunks per second CPU generation, that's consumer socket i assume i could get more on epyc, but if you wanted to pregen HUGE worlds i suppose gpu is neat

[static portal]

the only moment its useful to have c2me

[blissful egret]

takes multiple days on a large modpack + you can't update anything with worldgen without pregenning new chunks and increasing the world border.

[waxen marlin]

bringing one chunk thread to the server and telling everyone to share aint great, trust me

[formal burrow]

If any Hytale/Hypixel Studios staff members are here and reading this and aren't saying anything: The Multipaper dude who maintains the infinite server scaling tech that no one uses doesn't have any funding or work to do, please hit him up

[static portal]

wdym by chunk thread?

[blissful egret]

minecraft world generation is single threaded

[waxen marlin]

i can generate out to 20k in a few hours on cpu, though i have little expierence with heavy mods

[static portal]

it uses an executor its not
the different step isn't tho

[waxen marlin]

without c2me, you have one thread for everyone to share unless of course you're using paper or something

[static portal]

no that isn't the case

[waxen marlin]

but it literally is lol.

I've ran 70+ on vanilla chunk gen. Trust me.

it's not ONE in the same way as the game thread is, but effecitvely it is

[hard walrus]

they recently made chunk loading multithreaded but it doesnt really scale, especially not like c2me can

[waxen marlin]

that's basically it, plus generation relies on the main thread to apply the chunk changes. Loading is a bit more decoupled

[static portal]

it which version? cause its in the 1.21.1 that i saw is uses uses executors

[waxen marlin]

saving is decent, but i had a contest for hoeing grass that brought it down to a halt with just 20 people doing it.

[minor marsh]

Saving chunks still takes a relevant portion of CPU time in as of 1.21.1, at least in servers with more than 40 players

[waxen marlin]

so you have the game thread, which is redstone, the world, chat, stuff like that. That's a hard 1 thread. Netowkring is its own thread. You have chunk workers for disk operations, and i think that's multithreaded, same as for generation. But the way i understand it works is effectively, you're still waiting on the main thread in both cases. C2me locked to 2 threads runs circles around the "8" workers in vanilla

[blissful egret]

Large modpacks tend to add a lot of structures and features so it can make world gen pretty expensive computationally.

[minor marsh]

Depends on your simulation distance, though

[manic pine]

Love how everyone's main concern is performance lmao

[minor marsh]

Same

[waxen marlin]

sim distance is all main thread, from random ticks to mob spawning

[minor marsh]

Saving has a main thread part as well

[waxen marlin]

i spend more on my server than i do on my gaming computer

[manic pine]

I spend more on my cat than I spend on myself

[waxen marlin]

i had c2me break on launch day once. Until I fixed it, we had a loading distance of 1. Literally 1. And you mail ordered those sometimes. This was on 2 wd blacks in raid 0

[blissful egret]

Probably because (vanilla) minecraft is atrocious performance wise so people want better.

[waxen marlin]

true! I care about my players expierence more than my helldivers fps

[manic pine]

I'm sure we will get there one way or another, I don't expect first day performance to outperform minecraft

[waxen marlin]

i run a vanilla server. During normal times we average about 30. Peak is 70 on new map day. We're gearing for a new map and are slow right now. Im considering bumping one gen to a 9950x. I've already done a LOT to make it faster while being basically vanilla redstone.

we just sometimes run at less than 20 tps and it's vanilla life

[minor marsh]

I've heard 3D V-Cache can improve world generation times up to 30%

[green atlas]

If the game is C# is C# plugins a thing or is it only java?

[waxen marlin]

its i nteresting, i almost rented one of those chips with 1 c3d ccd and one non so i could test. Im interested in tick times, idgaf about generation. I pregenerate, i use a different server for that.

[minor marsh]

The client is C#, server is in Java, AFAIK

[blissful egret]

iirc the client is C++ and the server is java

Someone who knows, is the client written in C++ or C#?

[waxen marlin]

no one gave me a conclusive answer on if x3d works well for certain mc server loads. Clients, sure. But none of the vendors are offering it really, so its just expert guesses, and people i trust have both said 0 different and all the difference.

[waxen marlin]

c# was said above

[blissful egret]

thx fam

[waxen marlin]

to be fiar when i read that, i didnt comprehend it meant client was c# and server was java, just that both were used.

i skimmed at work earlier to be fair to me

[green atlas]

I've just gotten comfortable with C# so was wondering

[pine hornet]

I am a C++ dev but willing to learn C# for Hytale 🙂

[frozen crown]

C# is microsoft java essentially

[minor marsh]

Yeah, fair

[static portal]

"That's a hard 1 thread." yep, it's also the thread that is used to init a bunch of stuff including other threads
"You have chunk workers" it has its own executor unlike worldgen that reuse the "main" executor (it uses the "BACKGROUND_EXECUTOR" in net.minecraft.utils)
"you're still waiting on the main thread in both cases" i don't think? i haven't looked a lot at how this specific thread interact and works

im not an expert on how world gen stuff works (more intrested in the light thread in 1.20+ to achieve light supression, oom crashes are fun)

[blissful egret]

pretty much yeah

[pine hornet]

A fellow dev told me C# is C++ in easy mode

[white pecan]

nope

[waxen marlin]

well more like it's waiting so much on the one thread that effectively running 1 dedicated chunk thread with c2me is the same. 2 c2me threads beat 8 vanilla workers tied to the main thread, in my testings. Both loading and saving are affected.

[lofty shadow]

they're very different languages

[waxen marlin]

the i/o workers being multithreaded hardly matters. that's the fastest part.

[pine hornet]

Are they? :/
Then I guess it will be much more effort to adapt

[waxen marlin]

and when I say "hard one thread" i mean its own, not the main thread

[minor marsh]

I think the most expensive part is chunk serialization/deserialization

[blissful egret]

it's more similar to java than it is to C++

[minor marsh]

Because chunks are complex objects

[pine hornet]

I hate Java

Man. I thought this will be easy

[west elk]

You'll be able to use Kotlin if you want

[blissful egret]

luckily there is nothing like the JVM so it's not awful but yeah, a lot of forced object oriented stuff and whatnot.

[static portal]

if it dedicate thread(s) to it rather then using the executor (or make it so its not what big blob of thing to do by seperating each step in their own thread/executor/whatever it uses) then it would probablt end up being faster
it also redo part of the gen to make it faster anyway iirc

[pine hornet]

Gonna watch a course now 🙂

[night python]

if C# is used does this mean it uses .net framework too ?

[rough dove]

If you know C++ then Java will not be a problem. It has no match for C++ complexity

[minor marsh]

I agree

[stoic galleon]

whos making servers?

[static portal]

you can make it pretty complex too if you want, it even has a UNSAFE classes ready for you to allocate memory yourself

[lilac stratus]

We'll be making a server

[pine hornet]

I remember it being horrible. Before I started with C++ about 9 years ago I tried Java and I remember I did not like it at all

[white pecan]

it can be if the server is really open source

[lilac stratus]

For PIXELGREW Hytale

[stoic galleon]

Hypixel on Hytale when

[olive rampart]

you might like kotlin, it compiles down to java and has better syntax

[hot elbow]

Dudes, what do you think? Is Hytale server core will have same problems like minecraft server cores?

I wanna know how much people can run this core on 1 multicore server

[olive rampart]

and id assume you can use it for hytale plugins

[blissful egret]

I've been learning C# and from what I've experienced it's way less jank than Java

[stoic galleon]

Are docs public yet?

[static portal]

nope

[pine hornet]

That sounds very interesting. Thank you

[stoic galleon]

damn alright

[olive rampart]

prob not for a while they said for legal reason

[white pecan]

which means that we could use the protocol to rewrite the server in other languages

or make plugins to use embedded ones, like Lua

[minor marsh]

The Unsafe class is deprecated, it will be replaced when the FFM API comes out

[waxen marlin]

to further clarify serialization, block entities, lighting, and the packet bs is all one thread. I dont know how it actually works, but in practice both watching Top and just watching how it works in testing, it's basically just one chunk at a time in practice. I say "one dedicated chunk thread" as it's not where it's like chunk loading generally affects game thread, its just kinda like being on it's own single thread in effect. I can keep up with a few players doing tridents in the rain at 300+ blocks a second with just 3 chunk threads in c2me or paper.

i cant keep up with ONE vanilla

[static portal]

sadly yes, i loved the UNSAFE name

[minor marsh]

Memory allocations done with the FFM API are going to be more stable I think, they use the AutoCloseable sugar with try-with-resources statements and IIRC you could also create some C-like structs using a MemoryLayout

[pine hornet]

I heard Hytale coding will be a mixture of C# and Java. Do you or anyone here know whether C# or Java is more important to learn for Hytale

[waxen marlin]

side note here iirc paper has a movement speed limit setting by default that's slower than tridents. Forget dophin crap

[hot elbow]

Dudes, does it a big problem, that hytale will use main language by Java?

I tried to make RPG server in minecraft, and performance was kind of sucks for lot of people (200+ players)

Im worried about performance

[pine hornet]

Also, do you guys think it will be possible to create a server like hypixel is for Minecraft

[minor marsh]

C# for the client, Java for the server

[pine hornet]

Ahh okay. I can live with that. Thanks

[waxen marlin]

all depends if it's made to scale up or scale out. You could make it out of macceroni noddles if it scales the right way

and writing stuff for scaling out is hard

[blissful egret]

they could use something like graalvm to compile the java code to machine code to bypass the jvm and increase performance.

[static portal]

lighting on a executor, block entities main thread, and the packet b different executor (not even manage to mc)
"it's basically just one chunk at a time in practice" how many dim was loaded? they reuse the same executor
" it's own single thread in effect" the issue is that "in effect" cause a lot of missconception about mc including ppl that say having 4+ core is usless for mc (thats not even a joke)
". I can keep up with a few players doing tridents in the rain at 300+ blocks a second with just 3 chunk threads in c2me or paper." yeah its way more efficient

[static portal]

how much performance gain?

[blissful egret]

quite a bit but I don't have any exact numbers

[minor marsh]

AOT compilation is prob going to improve a few things, but mostly startup times

I don't think it's a magical fix for everything

[static portal]

most of it is statup time, its crazy how jvm overhead is so little

[minor marsh]

Most performance problems with GC languages like Java are related to RAM usage, the JVM itself is pretty fast

[waxen marlin]

uh, i think 4 is about right no? In theory? As long as they're big. You have main thread, at least one networking thread, one thread dedicated to chunk loading, make sure those are all non SMT threads, then you have some threads for I/o workers and crap, mainly hyper threads. As long as you make sure the scheduler doesn't do anything odd and make sure main thread doesnt get intruded on with n iceness. But as soon as you add paper or c2me you have advantages to more, or want dynmap or bluemap...or basically any paper plugin ("async" is a code word for hard drugs over in that dev community).

[blissful egret]

optimizing java to run on low ram is like pulling teeth

I actually hate doing it so much

[waxen marlin]

and i know i/o workers and networking can use more threads, but they'll never need all of it. 8 i think.

[minor marsh]

I think Java 25 is going to be a bless when it's used in Minecraft, because of Compact Object Headers

[lilac stratus]

I wish we were using Lua

[blissful egret]

fr

[minor marsh]

This means less RAM usage, specially for tiny objects

[lilac stratus]

What is the scalability for Hytale do we have any idea? Or are we going to run into scaling issues like Minecraft?

[waxen marlin]

performance overhead isn't the problem, the way it works is. If you have a performance overhead of a singledigit percent what you areally are is one cpu generation behind. If you can only scale up you're still screaming internally about a 15 year old game

[viscid wren]

I could see at the start when things aren’t as optimized.

[waxen marlin]

every bit helps once you have what you have, dont get me wrong

[minor marsh]

Yeah

[lilac stratus]

For example, let's say I'm running a modern Linux server 128 GB of RAM. Are we going to be able to have a thousand players in the server? I'm not sure if we have these answers yet or does anybody know?

[blissful egret]

I need every little bit of performace I can get since I've got my servers running on the garbage pickers special

[proper wadi]

I wouldn't count on it

[lilac stratus]

I'm tired of marketing servers that can only fit between 50 to 100 people -_-

[waxen marlin]

i mean if perforamnce is on the table, take it. I just mean the idea that java = bad server performance is kinda just MC ptsd. Sure it might be bad, but it wont be because java if it is. It'll be bad plus idk 10% mroe bad cause java lol

[west elk]

You need to do some sharding

[static portal]

executor create as much thread as the number of core it had, it has benefit even after 16+ core
"at least one networking thread" again executor (iirc) so N threads
"one thread dedicated to chunk loading" loading is on IO executor, lightning & the distance manager (to know which chunk to send to client) are on the main executor, so still N thread
"all non SMT threads" java allow for true threads? idk i almost never uses trye thread on java (and directly do syscall on C cause i don't like the p thread api)
""async" is a code word for hard drugs over in that dev community" it also remind me of JS which give PTSD /s

[static portal]

and i notice that only after

[blissful egret]

the internet has completly ruined the word shard for me lmao

[lilac stratus]

Yes I have done this with Minecraft before but when it's not built in it has all sorts of issues like duping

[static portal]

yeah i saw that, you should be able to run mc with java 25 but no idea if it gave the advantage

[lilac stratus]

I can't say sharding around the 12-year-olds in my server

[blissful egret]

me when i shart with minecraft

[static portal]

yes its mc ptsd

[blissful egret]

how did you change the font on your username?

[waxen marlin]

the only way to guarantee non SMT threads is basically the scheduler via niceness or manual pinning, but unless you do special crap everything shows as the same java process, so it takes some tinkering. What i meant by that is 4 cores (assiming you meant 4 cores 8 threads) on vanilla wont improve much if at all on say 8, barring some overhead with other crap on the computer. The reason is even though there are parts that can use like 8 threads each, they will be unfed. Sure mc can take up to 8 chunk i/o workers i think, but like...they'll never be fed. It's moot.
But in practice heck yea 4 cores aint enough. Got paper or c2me, have maps, have networking system replacement mods (or paper again), and have just other crap you might run.
Im just saying that in my expierence, 4 cores 8 threads vs more on the vanilla jar makes 0 difference. Running an actual server, i'd go for 6 or 8 cores 12 or 16 threads at least. I run 12 cores personally, and might go 16 just for the small IPC gain of a 9950x

[abstract urchin]

discord nitro

[waxen marlin]

now for client side minecraft? DUNNO

i know very little about client mc performance lol

[exotic axle]

the channel topic is:

Discussion about making Java server plugins.
so I assume Java will be the official language of choice for modding

[blissful egret]

I read this in the self checkout voice in my head

[exotic axle]

what 😭

[waxen marlin]

please remove item from bagging area
continue scanning

[waxen marlin]

to further elaborate, i make this distinction for determining running a bunch of servers on one system

[exotic axle]

HELP

[modest burrow]

all this threading talk xD

[waxen marlin]

even on 6 cores i did some stupid crap like first load the main thread, detect that, then load chunk threads, detect them, then had a script pin them all
as in stress load

[exotic axle]

neat profile picture :)

[modest burrow]

thank you

[waxen marlin]

now back then they had just introduce big little! So we used to set a niceness level on our belt, which was the style at the time, because there was a shortage of good schedulers due to the silicon war

[static portal]

"on vanilla wont improve much if at all on say" it actually is
" 8 chunk i/o workers" its not just io worker, world gen and light are too but i get the point, main thread being a thread sucks
"4 cores 8 threads vs more on the vanilla jar makes 0 difference." probably depend on whats lagging, if the main thread is lagging more thread (unless you have less then 4*) won't do much, but if you have lot of player that go all in different direction that all need to load chunks rather then lot of entity to ticks then you will see better perfs

*based on testing seems like you got the same result for that

[static portal]

:3

[mossy maple]

c# confirmed ?

[knotty crescent]

c# is client
java for server

[timber vortex]

Eww java

[exotic axle]

it's okay you can use kotlin !

[red willow]

whyd I see ppl taking about luau

[mossy maple]

who said that ?

[mossy maple]

makes a lot of sense for it to be lua

[timber vortex]

kotlin? I'll need to do some reading

[gaunt void]

Oh hai, its another rosie like meeee

[bright panther]

Him

[red willow]

yeah

[exotic axle]

hi! :)

[static portal]

you didn't hook a debuger to main thread and concluded that main thread is indead one thread??? YOU'RE SMARTER THEN 99% OF THE PPL I TALK ABOUT THREAD IN MC!
my god i hate the "mc is single threaded" crowd but i can't stop correcting them ahhhh

[knotty crescent]

if that what the old engine was using

[waxen marlin]

really? The reason i thought i was right on this is when I had 70 people going all directions, the main thread was not full loaded (20 tps once sim distance was killed), and there was just 1 thread screaming. BUT it wasn't entirely vanilla jar, it was my full setup before I redid everything custom, exploding as it did day one and had to disable c2me.
My other reason for this is moving between my test VM 4 cores) and my test server (16 cores) made 0 difference. But my test is simple, it's just 30 spectating players moving all directions, loading existing chunks not generating new ones. (this was vanilla jar in tests to compare)
8 i/o workers was just one thing, not inclusive, i think they all get their own threads, my assertion is more than a couple are never loaded if you dont have some multi thread chunk mod. But i rarely run non-pregenerated, maybe the end past a certain coord but never too many at once, so i think if there's a case it's probably that, which to be fair most people just "what is minecraft server" and making their own realm sized thing wont be pregenerating, they'll have people boating day one and die so i understand that thought process.

either way in effect the whole "minecraft is one core so why you get X cores?" is a thing i've seen before too

[pine hornet]

Ahh right. I am in the server plugins channel. My bad.

[exotic axle]

no worries :)

[mossy maple]

that doesn't mean the coding will be in c# (moding I mean)

[exotic axle]

client mods would be C#, JVM for server mods

most likely

oh im repeating things that have been said, oops

[timber vortex]

Its not like there are any pinned messages. Ur good

[blissful egret]

that sound like an absolute nightmare for any kind of complex mod that changes stuff on the client and server

[timber vortex]

Well how often do you need to work with server?

[exotic axle]

ehh, yeah perhaps a little annoying having to manage two different projects

[timber vortex]

If its object based then it'll likly run just fine over client

[exotic axle]

you could probably use intellij ultimate to manage both concurrently but yeah, less ideal

when is the class file to C# ir compiler coming so we can make client mods in java

[true socket]

I think it more likely that client modifications if they exist will be done through a scripting language

[knotty crescent]

oh ya we don;t have a confimration about the modding api (most likely luau).
But the server source code is said to be open source so I would assume we can also mod the server side code too

[exotic axle]

ooh yeah, could

[blissful egret]

anytime you are modifiying anything outside of rendering and gui.
most of the game is gonna run in the server code.

[rose atlas]

I plan on making a full zombie apoclypose where its PVE/PVP and players will be able to fight eachother for resources and zone claiming but that's just a small % of the idea.

[timber vortex]

But for the package will you need to write your own server code?

Or is this going to be baby training wheels?

[hard walrus]

luau was used on the new (old) engine, so now we have no clue what it's gonna use

[keen mortar]

hello :3

[clever frost]

if modding the server uses java I'll be very happy

[keen mortar]

mood, but open to learning something new

[hard walrus]

that's been confirmed iirc

[clever frost]

sick

[keen mortar]

heck yeah, reusable code ftw

[clever frost]

time to port my minecraft paper servers to hytale 🧌

[keen mortar]

as in, I can reuse a lot of my code :>

[knotty crescent]

I dont think client code will be moddable due to security constraints.

[keen mortar]

thisss

[clever frost]

that seems rather lame
java has this with fabric/forge

[keen mortar]

tbf I think I'll be okay with that

[unreal crown]

Didn’t they said in the blogpost client to server side?

[clever frost]

unless you mean client modding that is done by the server

[knotty crescent]

server side and content

I assume you still have quite a lot of control like custom UI and stuff like that

[waxen marlin]

i love fabric and forge and every client side mod platform. I think they're a good thing for the game.
I hate those zoomer clients like lunar and whatever that all the pvp drag clicking players use. So many issues.

[keen mortar]

while I like client side mods, I trust the team here to focus on the development community and facilitate the kinds of development we'd want to undertake

[rose atlas]

i dont think hytale will be the same

[unreal crown]

Oooh I mistaken content for client side

Thx for the correction

[hard walrus]

client side seems to be data driven only atm

[waxen marlin]

you can have cleint side mods without modding the client, to be clear, if the developer supports it.

[keen mortar]

this

[static portal]

"it's just 30 spectating players moving all directions, loading existing chunks not generating new ones. (this was vanilla jar in tests to compare)" real player or fake player limited by ticking? Also there is a chunk rate limiter for player so when doing this kind of test i recomand making a mod for it directly that will manually say which chunk to load and unload
"just "what is minecraft server" and making their own realm sized thing wont be pregenerating" many player are starting to use E4MC or enssensial that allow for a client's "open lan" to be exported without opening port so yeah no event interact with servers

""minecraft is one core so why you get X cores?" is a thing i've seen before too" worst part about that is some server owner also say that, like do they even know what they are running??? And also plugin dev (which is the reason why i don't have a lot of trust in them because, unlike modding, you don't need to know that much how mc works to have plugins)

[waxen marlin]

but the cool thing about good old mixins in minecraft is see this code? dont like it? dont use it.

[keen mortar]

better integration and less hassle for user if they're well supported

[static portal]

mixin my beloved

[hard walrus]

this is why simon was asking about what mods people want is because they have to implement the capabilities into the client itself

[keen mortar]

that's fair

[velvet basalt]

Will servers be more scalable than on Minecraft? I know on Minecraft you can't really get more than 300ish people on a server unless you use some crazy software like multipaper/some deriviative

[hard walrus]

no one knows yet, unfortunately

[clever frost]

mixins are really awesome

[static portal]

we can't know
simon seem to think it will be better in a tweet i saw a screenshot of before hytale got brought

[velvet basalt]

im a bit bummed that server side software will be running on java. It just isn't as efficient as c++ or something else so hosting costs will certainly be more expensive

[keen mortar]

I develop/engineer hyperscaling networks but not in a way like multipaper does. the requirements of the networks I develop for don't require everyone being in the same space so it's a lot less headache. would be really cool though, but I wonder what design challenges it'll present

[velvet basalt]

I guess they had to sacrifice some of the performance to make it easier for minecraft devs to move to hytale developing

[hard walrus]

just because it's java doesnt mean it'll be slow

[keen mortar]

that's fair, I grow tired of writing for c++ though

[knotty crescent]

well they were ex minecraft modders before.

[keen mortar]

but I can see the appeal

[clever frost]

java is significantly more beginner-friendly so it'll heavily help the plugin ecosystem

people dont want to learn c++ as their first language

[velvet basalt]

I know but probably slower than c++. You can't really make java faster than c++ but you can certainly do vice versa

[velvet basalt]

can I ask what you work on in that regard? A certain server?

[static portal]

its awesome until Imersive portal come around and @Overwrite core part of chunk loading (WHY DID THEY DO THIS)

[keen mortar]

not at liberty to say right now but you'll see me around I imagine

[clever frost]

lmao

[keen mortar]

also doubt the server rules here allow it?

[hard walrus]

bro has real beef with immersive portals

[velvet basalt]

In the short term its better but in the long term I think people would be more greatful if the software stuck to c++, but oh well.

[static portal]

there is no rule against it

[knotty crescent]

but but what if I want to use pointers and deal with memory management🌚

[minor marsh]

Minecraft: Java Edition's been around for more than a decade now, I think you're speaking more from the developer than the user experience

[clever frost]

in the long-term the same benefit still applies, people new to modding can get into plugin dev very easily, and I doubt the performance will be as bad as with minecraft

[unreal crown]

If something is not accessible less people will create = less content

[hard walrus]

there are mods for minecraft that let you have 1k people on relatively normal hardware, so I wouldnt worry about the performance too much

[brisk marsh]

@keen mortar can you accept my friend request?

[clever frost]

using a neat (easy to get into/use) language for modding/plugins is a massive driving force for the plugin ecosystem

[midnight oar]

why do you think so?

[keen mortar]

doesn't count as self promotion?

[hard walrus]

talking and promoting arent the same thing, just be mindful and you'll prob be fine

[velvet basalt]

true, this game really is pandoras box. I always felt that minecraft was so undeserving of fame

[gray valve]

I already know how to mod Minecraft kinda
so I'm excited to make Hytale mods

[static portal]

i wouldn't if they didn't overwrite

The reason why i even interacted with it is because i wanted to fix what i though a rendering issue with VS2 and learn what mc does rendering BUT ITS NOT EVEN THAT
anyway its not a real beef i love that mod, just a big agressive in how it injects

[clever frost]

Minecraft is the epitome of a sandbox at this point, the community made it deserving of its fame

[velvet basalt]

the game isn't balanced, modding and server plugins are only possible thanks to random devs who do the thankless job of maintaining spigot/fabric

[static portal]

"It's OK to share something you are proud of (just don't overdo it please!)
"

[cinder moat]

IS THAT ZBINFINN DIAMONDFIRE

[clever frost]

lmfao

[keen mortar]

mm fair. I work on minecraft music festivals. just careful about promoting too soon, last team I was a part of had some significant troubles

[hard walrus]

tbh I have used overwrite a few too many times lol

[unreal crown]

That’s so dope

[cinder moat]

you will not recognize this account because its not the one I use with df

[velvet basalt]

I see, I've been hosting some 1000 player events in minecraft so I would be interested in knowing some more, if you want to talk in DM's

[hard walrus]

too lazy to mixin for compatibility

[clever frost]

yeah I was gonna ask who the hell are you

[knotty crescent]

also hypixel has the developer of one of the greatest server-side & client optimization mods for vanilla Minecraft so I would assume hytale be quite optimised

[cinder moat]

Secret :3

[static portal]

promotion isn't allowed

[gray valve]

who is the developer

[knotty crescent]

Jellysquid

[velvet basalt]

I'm not promoting anything specific

[gray valve]

💀

[clever frost]

using :3 eliminates like half the df population

[static portal]

you are, your DM is a promotion

[pulsar obsidian]

Hmm, which events have you hosted so far if you don't mind sharing, just curious !

[static portal]

:3

[velvet basalt]

if you wanna be extremely 🤓 then yeah but I dont really think anyone gafs

[static portal]

good :3

[unreal crown]

We love :3 users

DMing for promo is actually annoying lmao don’t do it

[cinder moat]

Are you sure? Why does one have to behave in a manner that is the same across all accounts

[velvet basalt]

I didn't do the actual software development but some 10v1000 events for my channel

[pulsar obsidian]

I've got some questions regarding softwares used and so on, primarily curious how everything is being scaled / solution... Is it an implementation like Hoirzon / Goliath / Mammoth. Or is it perhaps like ShreddedPaper / Folia ??

[static portal]

omg this comunity will quicly fall into :3 lmao

[clever frost]

it's just very common for people to do

[velvet basalt]

rn we are using shreddedpaper but we've used multipaper in the past

[unreal crown]

Then it will be time for owo, uwu and 👉👈

[exotic axle]

when is the minestom-like hytale port coming

[keen mortar]

:3

[pulsar obsidian]

Ahhh, I see !! Is it a Private Fork of ShreddedPaper ?? How's the stability of the software rn ?? I saw it a year or so ago on Gero's server

[hard walrus]

day 1 lowkey

[clever frost]

ight I have to go, they better release more info on modding before release!!

[velvet basalt]

multipapers performance is like... barely acceptable

[waxen marlin]

real fake players, actually (at least for that purpose, carpet players are mostly full players). Full ticking, but the spectate was on purpose to not simulate, as at the time i was experiencing a problem with chunk i/o i was trying to replicate on test servers and cut out all other factors, but didnt know it was some bs with g1gc ruining my day not the mod. But i knew i didnt need sim distance. Later, i had a case where i had to run (post opening day, people settled in) without c2me for a while, and experimented with what the "limit" was without it. I used real accounts for that, I have 5. But it makes no difference with carpet, at least for the test i did. If I wanted to test networking, different story.
And yea i get what you mean on some plugin devs, earlier i said something like "async is a buzzword for them". They're too abstracted. I run a fabric server. I be in the trenches. Literally everything except c2me i used to run custom. Even my ledger was custom. It's gotten better recently and theres better options out there, but i still have to hand make everything for performance while meeting my requirements. I get away with flawless mob spawning and thousands of hostile mobs loaded without affecting gameplay or farms by mixing in top my heart's desire. For the vanilla niche- and I mean we make it so that if you see it on YouTube, you can build it, no exceptions (if you should is a different question)- about 6 months after my disaster switch to fabric (relying on untested mods made by others at first, which im still thankful for the starting point dont get me wrong) i was beating paper performance with more vanilla permissive settings by FAR. Outside my niche i wouldn't beat it, but some of the things I do are not possible via a paper plugin.
This year, we had some kerfuffle with the datacenter i collocated at, and i had to temporarily run us off of a 4 core file server while I drove out to angrily pick up my servers (t series low wattage...skylake i think? Might have been older even). Seriously a 10$ cpu, 5$ of which cause it's the 25w version. It ran 20 something players with late map mega bases at 20 TPS. I couldn't believe it. Now, i did announce what happened and asked people to be nice, so im sure a lot of farms were turned off. But still. I couldn't dream of running 5 on the same map with paper on that piece of junk.

edit
yea skylake, just checked. Was a Xeon E3-1240L V5. 25w, 2.1Ghz base.

[static portal]

:3
if it continue it will this server will end up being one where i keep calling ppl good <gender>

[velvet basalt]

very glitchy for sure but I think its kinks can be worked out

[pulsar obsidian]

Wb Shredded ?? MP had dupes and stuff last I used

[velvet basalt]

shreddedpaper isn't as scalable

[unreal crown]

Call me good boy plz

[velvet basalt]

multipaper can basically theororetically run infinite players (well not really)

[static portal]

good boy

[pulsar obsidian]

Hummm.. What do you think of Sharding Multiple Regions accross servers + Shredded ??

[velvet basalt]

but you can get multiple seperate servers while for shredded you can only use one pc

[pulsar obsidian]

Bandwith ??

[static portal]

thats the average tech mc, info dumb and good <gender>

[hard walrus]

have you tried fabric, I've had great success with large player counts on it

[unreal crown]

[velvet basalt]

I mean its possible

[unreal crown]

I accept it

[velvet basalt]

yeah thats the big restriction but you can do many thousands of players. More than shreddedpaper. Shreddedpaper is more stable but you can't push it as far

[pulsar obsidian]

I've done Sharding on Folia before, so shouldn't be that diff with Shredded ??

[keen mortar]

@velvet basalt if you'd like to chat I've sent you a friend request

[velvet basalt]

i have no idea. For my events we need all 1000 people to be at ONE location so sharding wont work for us

[pulsar obsidian]

Figured much actually !! I would love to chat w/ this more with you, I'm interested into scaling servers and looking at impl. Mind taking this to DMs down the line ??

[pulsar obsidian]

Ah, I see... From what I heard, ShreddedPaper is almost like Folia ??

[velvet basalt]

im not very knowledgable 😭 but sure feel free to shoot me dms. Feel free to ask puregero any specific questions because hes the crazy mastermind that makes everything work

[pulsar obsidian]

Do you have idea of the hardwares running your 1000 Player events if you don't mind sharing ???

How's the performance of them usually w/ Shredded ?

[velvet basalt]

we use a 9950x i believe

[velvet basalt]

pretty solid, I would say more stable than with multipaper. You sacrifice some players for better stability

[smoky star]

Heh

[pulsar obsidian]

I see !! Would it be possible to link some of your videos perhaps ?? I can shoot you a DM real quick , just a sec !

[waxen marlin]

it's funny to me that there's a huge market of consumer cpus in servers now thanks to MC. Like the earliest people to report there might be a problem with intel 13th and 14 gen were minecraft server hosts

like i have no evidence of this but I think there's got to be more 9950xs playing minecraft than doing anything else

[formal burrow]

I have briefly spoken to Multipaper/ShreddedPaper's creator, if people really want him to port this tech to Hytale then he probably wants to get paid, which I don't blame him for.

hopefully Simon or his crew is reading this and they'll talk to him instead of me

he deserves a full time position at Hypixel for his sadly underused work

[waxen marlin]

it's sad to me that folia and public sharding was like a decade after private sharding solutions

[tidal sentinel]

Is there any confirmed languages for the servers?

[pulsar obsidian]

We don't know how Hytale Servers will be yet... Let's wait. Hypixel's team is honestly large enough to do it themselves and I believe that they will do it as Scaling (MultiPaper's big goal) is a goal of Hypixel too, albeit on a smaller scale with Minigame Servers, synchronization of states is a completely different thing... Although, PureGero is an absolute genius in this field I agree and does deserve credit where credit's due

[static portal]

"They're too abstracted. I run a fabric server. I be in the trenches. " yeah, same reason why i dev mod and not plugin, i hate when abstraction doesn't let me do what i want and plugin ecosystem is that and that result in learning a butch of stuff
that and me trying four houts to get a oom error in a specific place of the light engine just to got light supression in 1.20+
" if you see it on YouTube, you can build it" what about oom supressor? the kind of gigantest thing that use written book to store gb of data to crash a specific list when it rezises? do you think those would work?
"It ran 20 something players with late map mega bases at 20 TPS. I couldn't believe it." there is 2 reason for that, first amazing optimisation you did, and the second is your player base looking for good TPS, you mentioned it being a vanilla server and generally the kind of ppl that want that are tech player who will lookout for that
Now if you ran an light mob supressed farm the tps would probably be very different

" Was a Xeon E3-1240L V5. 25w, 2.1Ghz base." ON THAT TRASH??? My god you're optimisation works well

[formal burrow]

he deserves an actual paid job with Hypixel, im going to keep advocating for him to get hired at least as a contractor because he deserves it

none of his work ever got to be used for anything too significant

[velvet basalt]

RIGHT its so crazy how much influence minecraft has over the general tech space. remember log4shell?

[exotic axle]

the channel topic says "Java server plugins," so I assume Java is likely THE language

[pulsar obsidian]

I agree 100% I loved his MultiPaper project but it died out due to it's unpopularity... And it didn't make sense for him to maintain it for no gain basically.

[static portal]

have you looked into MCMT fabric? its 1.20.1 and threads a lot of things

[hard walrus]

if you want some anecdotal evidence I have a few doing exactly that

[static portal]

yes, unlike the discussion we are having its normally about java the language not the game

[pulsar obsidian]

Oh lord...

Log4shell incident gave me a heartattack, thankfully none of the places I worked at didn't get affected and we fixed it quickly.

[static portal]

that time when 2b2t was used as a test server? yeah

[pulsar obsidian]

I WAS SLEEPING 💔 AND MY ALL SOCIALS GOT BLASTED

[tepid arrow]

isnt the thing with folia that it cant handle 1000 people in one concentrated area?

or like, 100?

[pulsar obsidian]

Mhmm... But ShreddedPaper SORT of can

[static portal]

folia multi thread region, so many player near won't work well
but across multiple region yeah

[pulsar obsidian]

For ShreddedPaper, When a chunk is being ticked, all other chunks within a certain radius are locked to prevent conflicts (race conditions) between threads.

[hard walrus]

I remember being able to launch doom on people's mc clients with that one

[tepid arrow]

lmao

[pulsar obsidian]

Seems really neat

[static portal]

oh intresting
MCMT, a mod for multi theading ticking, just made the chunk acess synchronous (but not load chunk, only get them)

[velvet basalt]

We haven't. So far shreddedpaper seems to do the job well enough

[waxen marlin]

i dont know much about modern suppressors and stuff so i cant say, but at one point before it was patched or whatever update suppression did work, idk if that's the same. Im not sure i've seen that or not, i assume if it doesnt work c2me would be the culprit, as i steer clear of messing with world loading and saving myself. Entities, mod spawning, block entities are my main targets. If there was a reason to make a run once machine that we approved, taking off a mod while it runs is not out of the question. When i say see it on YouTube, build it- it's like bumping up to technical server in capability, but not quite it as it's not the target. If that was compatible im not sure i'd allow it, or fix it if it wasn't. The target is actually less technical people. Build a stacking raid farm a few versions ago, find out you're on paper, cry cause you're not technical enough to know how to fix it and you built a non working things. Expierence sucks. Build an ianxo4 based tree farm clone (probably from a youtube video with too many shaders and crappy music) with the slimeless dupers or any order dependant zero tick behavior otherwise? Get screwed on alternate current. So if you bring me a farm that's not designed to take the whole server down anyway, and I can't just paste it in my backrooms and make it work, im fixing it, because the goal isn't for the super technical people, as even on paper they know exactly what they can and can't do, it's actually for the less technical ones. I played on paper a lot, i just considered the changed design paramaeters. Though some things were not possible, some things were fun to design around. Yes even piston deferment. But that's not the experience your less technical player wants.
And oh yea they look out. We have this thing called the lagpickle, it's a way to let people sign up farms to load shed via a priority level under bad tps. We have villager nerfing, butopt in via nametags. So like behavior changes dont catch you off guard, we made an opt-in culture.

[pulsar obsidian]

Humm, I see.. I'll look into it a little.

[waxen marlin]

there's a fork of that focusing on entities and doing good stuff, simply called async. I plan to use a modified version of that to let people nametag mobs in our out of sync

not flawless or anything, but ill start simple. Like the heck cows do that need to be on the main thread for?

[waxen marlin]

iirc, weren't the first sharding servers developers specifically for skyblock where it just so works out to this never being a problem?

[pulsar obsidian]

Yeah well... MultiPaper was a mess...

Bandwith constraints, de-syncs, and so on...

[waxen marlin]

i once played on a skyblock server where a real problem was it was possible to end up on a bad shard running less than 20 tps and shards around you ran more, and it either didnt slow down the faster shards or didnt do it right, so those good shard island got more mob drops. It got to the point that some of us had a script that used the skybox to estimate tps, and if it dipped too often it would relog and try to get other shards

that server did allow a dummy client weirdly

[pulsar obsidian]

Sharding like MultiPaper is the real issue... Realtime World State Syncing and So on is PAINFUL.. And really bandwith heavy... Small things like SkyBlock Islands and so on can be sharded Fairly Easily... Or having an Implementation like DonutSMP, having different regions of the world running on Different Shards..

[static portal]

"but at one point before it was patched or whatever update suppression did work" then it should work
"The target is actually less technical people. Build a stacking raid farm a few versions ago, find out you're on paper, cry cause you're not technical enough to know how to fix it and you built a non working things" i call those ppl tech adjacent, they reuse thing from tech ppl and are intresting in tech stuff but not really how its made and thus can't change it of there is an issue. "Recently" a lot of youtuber become tech adjacent (with even some going into modding), its great to see that
"(probably from a youtube video with too many shaders and crappy music) " and somehow more view then the farm deseigner
"We have this thing called the lagpickle, it's a way to let people sign up farms to load shed via a priority level under bad tps. We have villager nerfing, butopt in via nametags. So like behavior changes dont catch you off guard, we made an opt-in culture. " Thats very good, it encourage player to care for TPS while still adding some game design (a thing many ppl forget) so its fun.

[static portal]

does folia uses the same system?
cause that would explain the update suppressor that allow to dupe item by just having instant line go over multiple chunks...

[pulsar obsidian]

Complex Servers like OPLegends and so on, have easily horizontally scaling systems where we just spin up instances and it basically seamlessly gets added and so on..

[pulsar obsidian]

ShreddedPaper and Folia has no seeming dupe... The issue was MultiPaper world state de-syncs

Folia is slightly different

[waxen marlin]

doesn't folia also have dead ticking zones? or am i wrong about that?

[static portal]

here you go, a working dupe for folia

[pulsar obsidian]

Folia is WAY larger scale than ShreddedPaper.

Folia is good for larger spread worlds, Shredded is for smaller shrinked worlds.

[waxen marlin]

just mind the load bearing bedrock

aaah bentobox

[pulsar obsidian]

🥀 We just forked BentoBox... Hard Forked actually

[waxen marlin]

so the way to make this work on the left is a less vanilla claims system with enforced deadzone. It's basically not transparent to players. Works best with turning the continentalness down a down to make more ocean. But I've seen it done. Not every player will have their own shard, but not really needed as long as there's some shard.

[pulsar obsidian]

Had 500 ish on Folia w/ Zero issues

[pulsar obsidian]

Do you perhaps mean something like WorldQL Mammoth ??

[waxen marlin]

hey i had more than 100 on a freakin opteron in late alpha/early beta. Game just aint the same man.

[pulsar obsidian]

💔

[pulsar obsidian]

Ugh, I think it's not that... I can't remember it really..

[lyric solar]

in Linux?

[waxen marlin]

i meant folia, the way it was explained to me is there was some customization needed, and there is an outsided shard that runs way harder than the rest, but you have some of the bases that aren't moving, megabases in particular, where you have the player designate their actual boundaries. You're not scaling infinitely, but out of 100 players maybe you have 3/4of them on shards

also bringing mobs outside your base wasn't possible without some kinda command

but these areas could be defined by the player. I dont think they took effect immediately, but it did reboot every few hours

[static portal]

they are talking about the different way to make the ticking multithreaded in minecraft

[waxen marlin]

we had sheep towers back before mob cramming limits just after sheering was added. You had to warn the server you were loading the sheep towers.

[pulsar obsidian]

Ah, I see... Currently the process is fully automated and depends on if the player is outside of a threading region area and just starts up another thread even if just a single player is there... I do believe there could possibly be a better way to do it... I even thought of someway combining ShreddedPaper AND Folia.

[waxen marlin]

yah like they basically took open world survival, and had it logically be plots survival, partially, by teh claim definition. And it told you yadda yadda wont work like minecarts over claim border, moving mobs, and whatnot. And i think it was a rule that any big farm must be in a claim. Which is kinda neat, as i HATE plot worlds.

[pulsar obsidian]

Ahhhh.. I see

[waxen marlin]

everything outside a claim was one thread though, possibly separated like on the 0 line

so if you like...made a clock outside a plot, it would just delete it after a while

well claim not plot but yea effectively a plot

[static portal]

"I even thought of someway combining ShreddedPaper AND Folia." they are both open source, you can
"I do believe there could possibly be a better way to do it.." instead of spawning a new thread you can have most of the player on 1 and hot region where lot of thing are, like lot (block) entity can be seperated into a thread. This is the best way to do it i can think of

[pulsar obsidian]

Claim is a plot so well yeah 💀

[static portal]

thats an interesting system, if it can be made compatible with heavly modded it could be perfect espeacly since it could be easly integrated with ftb chunk system

oh that X minecolony so your colony always works

there is so much intresting thing to do when messing around threads

[waxen marlin]

Admins and devs on servers that make money are beasts.

[static portal]

yeah

if they have actual dev which some server don't really (whats could go wrong with having the owner vibe code everything?)

[pulsar obsidian]

💔 OH THE TRAUMA

Last year i worked at a server where the owner vibecoded stuff

[static portal]

oh im sorry for you

[pulsar obsidian]

Got an actual good paying work now, so all good 💀

[waxen marlin]

Hey I take offense. I don't vibe code but I do code everything and barely know what I'm doing. We don't accept donations so they got what they didn't pay for

[pulsar obsidian]

The Owner's mainly into the marketing, I just develop the complex things.. It's fully on Folia and I love working with it and scaling stuff

[static portal]

"barely know what I'm doing" so like everyone?
from my understanding your server is build on experimentation, so if you don't know what your doing it mean your doing somthing new which is good

[proper pendant]

Is there any insight on what's going to be open sourced to the community. Or is it still undefined

[pulsar obsidian]

Server Software

Will be Open Sourced a while after rlease... Client will be Closed though...

[static portal]

they will "provide server source code access within several months, once we're legally ready to do so"

server are made in java, client (which modding of it isn't supported) is made in c#
2 language that can be realy good for modding

[waxen marlin]

I'm willing to vibe code "i need something ONCE (performance doesnt matter) and I need it NOW and know how it should look". A lot of take this sql dump and covert it from this shcema to that schema this way, take this thing, hit this api, then do this, all simple data conversion stuff. Will even write working regex. Performant? Dunno, dont care, im not cloudflare bringing down the itnernet with bad regex. I just have an emergency, am naked, going to work (real story of the first time i used AI for a real task)

the key is i know exactly if it's right or not

if I cant do it i cant expect AI to do it. Machines aren't accountable, I am

[proper pendant]

Will client modification change in the future

[pulsar obsidian]

I'm all for vibe coding small changes which needs to be get done asap... Although, there are some who doesn't know things and straight up vibe codes without knowing what even something as basic as Version Control is (Yes I have seen people like that at work.)

[manic pine]

well c# is easily modifyable by itself

[static portal]

"A lot of take this sql dump" understable sql is trash
"all simple data conversion stuff" i prefer doing quick little python script for that, its a challenge to how fast i can do it

[hard walrus]

they're going to open up more configuration but not direct code access

[crystal parrot]

Wait there will be the Feature to Code Plugins for Hytales Server Like in Minecraft? My new hobby🔥

[pulsar obsidian]

Vibe code only if you know things..

[pulsar obsidian]

Yupp !! I believe so 🔥

[waxen marlin]

i enter commands in my personal git like it might be a bomb, but i at least know version control. I was just raised in subversion

[static portal]

unlikely however the client will probablty accept a lot of data from server, including texture and other things, so modding the server still allows you to have a pretty good acess on the client

[crystal parrot]

Unfortunately not Java, but maybe C++. I'm currently learning C++; I've been doing Java for the last 5 years.

[pulsar obsidian]

Software is in Java... What makes you believe that it won't be Java ??

[static portal]

hytale server is made in java
you can use c++ if you want cause java support it tho (JNI goes brr)

[proper pendant]

Reflection is effort though. Lol

[knotty crescent]

The server code is java and is open sourced

[crystal parrot]

I believe its Java, i thougt its c++, sry

[manic pine]

i dont think official c# modding would be a thing, i rather think they would extend scripting capabilities as theyre requested

[verbal sapphire]

I'd assume you could make a plugin in any language with enough work through JNI

[pulsar obsidian]

The one Riot was working with was C++, but they switched back to Legacy Engine.

[static portal]

its a bit more effort but you can use something like hormony (similar capacity to mixin)

[waxen marlin]

when you're just out of the shower and lose an entire machine, lost your permissions database, and want to rebuild it from digging through a cat of the log files combined with using players position in the world to see if they were at least registered (greylist at the time), you'll take the help. This was early chatgpt 3 days, i managed to get done what would have taken me hours without being late for work to get a shim to keep us open. Long story how, but i had lost every database at once and recovery was possible, but only via reconstruction of logs which were seperately backed up. I learned an important lession about replication configs that day.

[crystal parrot]

Ohh, I unfortunately missed that they completely switched engines. Or maybe I've just forgotten about it xd

[waxen marlin]

since then I've been wiling to be like "hey mr computer if you're so smart, take data that looks like this (explination of what is what) and make it look like this, powershell please" and see what it hands me. A lot of the time im suprised.

outside of file and database conversion, im less than impressed

[crystal parrot]

So Hytales are now Nice, at least I know Java and nothing else. That's something, at least xd

[proper pendant]

If it uses a system like mixin's I'd be enjoyable to actually modify.

[waxen marlin]

enjoyable? I wouldn't go that far but yea really effective

[static portal]

backup, even on a small rasberry pi connected to a usb stick, is better then nothing
or even an old laptop (like my server is)

[static portal]

oh no, it can be very fun to use mixin

[static portal]

i haven't explored it much outside of some NSFW mod for rimworld i wanted to fix so i can't tell, i just know its the same functionality

[pulsar obsidian]

I Love Mixins 🥀

Yall heard about vectrix-space/ignite ?? (Check on Git)

It's a mixin's loader for spigot paper and so on

[proper pendant]

They're pretty interesting once you get an understanding with them, unless you're using them within the context of rendering. Then it's just a pain

[static portal]

oh its a java agent! its so cool!

you can change the mapping, anyone want to code plugin in yarn?

[pulsar obsidian]

😭 I don't fw anything JS

[waxen marlin]

so i had at the time onsite differentials, offsite daily full sends, and mysql replication. The computer got nuked by the differential, it was actually set up in a rush using a gui program called timeshift, which i trusted cause it was bundled with mint (was using debian 10 or 11 i forget). Basically a wrapper for rsync to make it easier. It dropped a hardlink to the root of my drive on a backup, started looping, i got an alert im running out of space, log in. I try to stop the backups and delete just the subfulder for the backup, nuke root of drive. See since it was a gui program, and HAD to run as root, the gui wont warn you for that. Ok no big deal, i have offsite backups, and replication going. Nah my replication broke. TO be fair, i didnt consider the databases crucial data, at the time mysql was just dynmap, luckperms, and voting, voting of which i had a way to recover. All were action logged, so basically as long as i pulled the mojang API to see what players name changed where, it's fixable. In theory.
In practice holy crap i have a meeting in an hour and i just got out of the shower, this needs to work now.
So i got better about my replication strategy. It took about 15 minutes for the server to be up (new deplayment) while i had added people who were logging in at the moment while working on the script to get people in while im at work. I asked chatgpt to do it, it delivered. The script basically checked that their name appeared in the log with key phrases, checeked that name against the mojang api, checked that they were not at sapwn, then added them in a temp role. Then when i got some free time later i started messing with chatgpt to help me remake the databases entirely 1:1 from the logs. I kinda had time then, but was more curios. Took almost no time to make a series of phython scripts that needed minimal modification. So then i kinda learned WHEN it could be useful to me.
Anyway now my backups are live in 2 places, and proper mysql replication, such that once i had a problem where our datacenter nuked both our real server and backup server and i ran us off the offsite backup file server without downtime. Just a live cutover.

The way i consider my backups is the map is sacred, it's not mine it's the players. The rest is idk, i do this for free

[gleaming socket]

Hey that's a pretty cool project 👀

[pulsar obsidian]

IKR !

[pulsar obsidian]

AHAHA.. I WAS LOOKING INTO IT AND WAS INSTANTLY IMPRESSED

[static portal]

man, the dev must be very skilled, i wonder who is it /s

honestly this could be reuse for hytale

[sterile salmon]

I use it on my projects. Rlly powerfull

[pulsar obsidian]

Nooo ideaaa

[waxen marlin]

👀

[pulsar obsidian]

Starred it !

[gleaming socket]

It'll work for Hytale day 1, but I'll be sure to add built in launch args for it so you don't need to do that manually.

[pulsar obsidian]

OH HELL YEAH

Looking forward to it !! Really interested to see where it goes...

Found a new thing to play around with

[dawn hill]

are people already planning servers? might wanna join a team just for fun lol

[neon mortar]

Hey, do you guys know if the C++ ECS engine will be public for the community?

[formal burrow]

People already are. However keep in mind none of the mods and plugins literally exist to administrate it

[waxen marlin]

we dont even know how the game plays

[charred vortex]

Was planning on using this, would I need a custom GameLocatorService impl?

[static portal]

never run gui, TUI is always better
And yes, text gen ai is actually a very very great database of linguistics so it work well for thing that patern matching isn't powerfull enough

[dawn hill]

well yeah, all we know is that its in java

[clear wedge]

What a hype to see this, before everything was dead, I've never seen the chat like this, historic game and it hasn't even been released yet lol

[dawn hill]

but i remember awhile ago people were planning the blockshot network, so its not crazy to think more people are planning things now that the game is confirmed saved

[hard walrus]

I bought some domains the second simon announced he got the game

[dawn hill]

lmaoo nice

[pulsar obsidian]

I'm in process of saving funds and domain

$5k seems a good starting, will invest more if need lol

[static portal]

tbf most of the talk is about MC

[viscid wren]

Like website domains? Don’t want to seem stupid but I was lost when I read that.

[hard walrus]

yeah

[gleaming socket]

You can launch any Java based project with it, you just need to specify the location of the jar, classpath entrypoint etc via the args. Which I will try add a built in GameLocator when we have access to the server code so you don't need to do all that.

[viscid wren]

Thanks

[cursive sonnet]

Chat I'm alive again

[waxen marlin]

well, to be fair to me, when the plan was to open our server months away, then a couple people get drunk on a discord call and say f it this week! Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution And you work that week, you make it happen. I knew how to work timeshift, i wasn't 100% confident in rsync commands by memory. The map was never at risk, or any of the config. These days i actually use syncthing believe it or not.
Btw known problem on timeshift turns out. Been nuking people all over. Another reason mint is not that great i guess.

[viscid wren]

Big starting right there. Is that for a custom server?

[static portal]

domain? who need those when you have ipv6 /s
actually the only thing i use my domain ie because i need it for a v4 frontend cause my server is ipv6 only

[hard walrus]

I already own server hardware. planning on putting up a server day 1

[clear wedge]

Yeah, especially since we don't have much to discuss yet, but seeing the movement is already cool

[viscid wren]

Hell yeah. Any specific style you’re aiming for like RPG, community, nations?

[foggy trellis]

things like that arent awfully hard to make theyd exist within days for the most part (if not coming built in for public use since hypixel is likely to be remade)

[cursive sonnet]

Ooooh awesome

[viscid wren]

Hypixel 2 before GTA6?

[hard walrus]

I've got plenty of time to figure that out 😂

[clear wedge]

Yes, much earlier

[viscid wren]

Sounds good. I’m just now learning Java starting this weekend.

[pulsar obsidian]

Mhmmm..

I've already got hardware, just waiting for the Software to release, will send over the Hardware to a DC for Colo

2x 9950x kitted with 256GB each

[static portal]

run arch its great /hj
i actually my server in arch there is a barly noticable performance gain (almost like runing out of date software with security patch backported isn't good)

[kind dove]

Scarx mututal friend hmmm

[foggy trellis]

jesus

[clear wedge]

I already have the budget for 10 x 192GB 9950x kkkkkkkkkk

[hard walrus]

I have a few plans for a few servers, but I think it's wise if I wait for the game to come out first before I work on something that wont even work for the game

[waxen marlin]

this was a gui because it was mainly a took to take a snapshot of a region file and do something with it, had 15 minute snapshots per region files for immediate use. Not meant to be a recovery tool, just didnt consider it would kill us. Backups were full zips at the time, but these days my differentials are offsite.

[clear wedge]

Or is it an exaggeration to think that way?

[pulsar obsidian]

not going THAT overkill yet... I can get the budget out from my Job, but I need to eat 🥀

[viscid wren]

That’s true sadly. Need to feel the game before you make plans as everything is just an idea right now

[static portal]

i also already have the hardware!
its a old laptop with a i5-7200U and a GTX 950M!

(it will be use for perf test)

[pulsar obsidian]

Known him for a GOOD while, a good fella of mine

[clear wedge]

Here in Brazil, the gaming market is growing tremendously, and this game is highly anticipated as well

[pulsar obsidian]

I've got 2x Mac Mini M4 as test

[waxen marlin]

yah i just use debian cause i use it in everything. Im not a linux expert, but debian has never failed me in a way that wasn't my fault. For reference before redhats crap i just did centos. I might try nix, i do like it conceptually for making ready to deploy setups for people.
Arch wiki is goated tho

[kind dove]

And i am shocked you know rimsus too 😭 i feel like we have lots in common

[pulsar obsidian]

ALTHOUGH, I WONDER... If it will run on ARM

[pulsar obsidian]

💔 Another good friend... She kinda adopted me so like 🥀

[kind dove]

Lmaooo

[clear wedge]

Which motherboard do you usually use?

[waxen marlin]

did you buy that ram before or after about 20 days ago lol

[static portal]

"yah i just use debian cause i use it in everything" same thing with arch, i use it everywhere
" I might try nix, i do like it conceptually for making ready to deploy setups for people." same and i actully want to modify pacman (arch package manager) to be more like that (and fetch the makepkg file so it can compile thing itself of downloading bin :3) so its the same source code with the same arg but compile on different machine

[waxen marlin]

yah my interest is to like make a flake or whatever its called meant for ready to go minecraft hosting that's a bit better than the "App" setups on vps providers, so people can have an easier on ramp into renting or using any hardware they want agnostically, but not needing to deploy everything themselves initially. Like all inclusive, the backup setup, the web hosting stuff, all that as part of a wizard.

[pulsar obsidian]

One's ASRock Rack B650D4U-2L2T/BCM and the other's MSI D3051GB2N-10G

[pulsar obsidian]

I got them about 2-3 months ago

[waxen marlin]

you leave my asrock rack alone! There's one right behind me!

im running a gigabyte am5 server, but all my am4 ones were asrock rack

[pulsar obsidian]

Of these two, and I usually stick with ASRock

[waxen marlin]

LUCKY. Ram has like more than doubled

[pulsar obsidian]

OH I KNOW RIGHT.. ABSURD PRICES

[static portal]

im running a Aspire E5-774G (yes its a server)

[pulsar obsidian]

Anything's a server

[static portal]

yeah
and more the cursed the setup is the funnier it is!

[waxen marlin]

Intel Core i7-6500U
i mean...it kidna sorta outperforms that file server i ran from

[pulsar obsidian]

Time to run a MC Server on my8 year old Samsung Phone

[waxen marlin]

but not really

[static portal]

like i needed to switch into the mbr boot mode because the battery died and restarting it reset the vram used for eufi boot
or unpluging it reset the bios

[static portal]

on mine its actually a i5-7200U because they love naming different product the same
but yeah its powerfull enough for what i need, and the gpu is enough for jellyfin too

[waxen marlin]

i cant post links ugh. I tried to post "im a computer" in response to this

[static portal]

you can post media but not link so download it

[hearty iris]

Will we be able to plug-in/mod in Java does anyone know?

[pulsar obsidian]

Yup

[hearty iris]

Where did u get this info?

[static portal]

we don't know but probably

[waxen marlin]

oh for jellyfin? yea i thought you meant miencraft. I use a xcpng cluster of dell OptiPlex micros, some of which are still haswell, for actual websites. Really i only every upgrade most things if they're using too much power and i could save money. I think my media server is a 6700k and some old quadro. That is a solid canidate for less power lol

[hearty iris]

I heard it was all gonna be in lua?

[pulsar obsidian]

The software is literally in Java and will be OpenSRC

[hearty iris]

Oh sry I was talking about their built in modding tools, but I guess you can always mod the traditional way aswell

[waxen marlin]

Every technical game. It's always lua innit. Lua is stored in the mods.

[hearty iris]

Lua makes me want to cry

[pulsar obsidian]

Ah about that, it's in C#, although I believe it will be Closed Source

[pulsar obsidian]

FiveM Development Trauma

[waxen marlin]

there was a really cool satisfactory mod that lets you lua script your factory, always wanted to try that

[idle fjord]

In the pdf they say that barely anyone without experience. Just by watching a short tutorial video will be able to mod in Hytale. Besides that haven't heard someone said so.

[waxen marlin]

thank god i watch other people do that and dont participate.

i might even host a fivem server soon. not developing it, no sir/maam

[pulsar obsidian]

💔 I took an oath to never touch FiveM again

[waxen marlin]

"ill give you the hardware, the rest is YOUR PROBLEM"

[static portal]

for mc the cpu is just too bad + i have other thing running on it
"Really i only every upgrade most things if they're using too much power" same, its for that laptop are great since they are design to not use a lot of energy

[waxen marlin]

built in ups lol

[pulsar obsidian]

3 years ago, never touched it since.

[static portal]

if the battery didn't died yeah!
but also UPS that power the eufi so if you need to have it not reset gl

[waxen marlin]

pish posh who needs internet?

[proper pendant]

FiveM my beloved :p

[waxen marlin]

(but you make a good point)

[static portal]

the issue is that eufi stored boot entry in vram so that reset too

[waxen marlin]

uefi?

[proper pendant]

Syntaxvgm, would you be opposed to a friends request

[waxen marlin]

fire away

[static portal]

yes, i have no idea why i keep saying eufi

[waxen marlin]

i thought it was typo for wifi lol

[static portal]

lmao

my setup isn't curse enough for having something like that
there is an electrical arc from idk where to the mic so its the mic unasable unless you want to hear raw data

[pulsar obsidian]

PLEASE, it's traumatizing

[clear wedge]

I understand, I've used an MSI before and didn't like it very much.

[clear wedge]

My dream was to launch this in February, it's a good time to plan ahead

But the desire is so strong that I could launch it in January lol

[kindred jay]

Is modding really going to be in the coding language Java? If so I really hope some other language can be used as well. Always hated that language

[static portal]

yes it will be, they might have other language throw in the mix like html/css
but nothing outside of java is confirmed

you can always try kotlin tho it should be compatible

[proper pendant]

Kotlin is worse

[pulsar obsidian]

Never really liked them either

[proper pendant]

Java ftw

[pulsar obsidian]

🙏 I kinda fanboy of Kotlin yall (99% of my Projects are in Java)

[static portal]

in my opinion same but some ppl prefer it

[waxen marlin]

so funny enough the most problems i had were with asrock with the BMC. Same BMC as my gigabyte but they were a tiny bit different software side. Like FREAKED OUT with certain symbols as passwords, which the tenant os setup my host did tried to deploy with that. Little crap like that. The gigabyte was just more polished on the out of band management. But I've run a lot of asrock rack stuff over the years, and few problems. Had one drop the management interface a lot, but that's the only problem i ever had.

[cursive sonnet]

Kotlin is weird but I wouldn't say Java is inheretly better, just two different flavors

[waxen marlin]

MSI i have never tried server products from

[cursive sonnet]

I've had 2 MSI motherboards and actually had a good experience, same with GPUs

[pulsar obsidian]

Exactly, some people loves Chocolate milk, some loves Strawberry milk

[cursive sonnet]

Idk maybe I got lucky

[pulsar obsidian]

Enterprise or Consumer ?

[cursive sonnet]

Consumer* good point I should've specified

[pulsar obsidian]

I've had good experience w/ MSI on Consumer as well... Enterprise, well...

Holy, I should sleep... I have officially pulled two all nighters in a row.

[clear wedge]

Most of the ones I use are Gigabyte, I used an MSI one but didn't like it very much; I also have some ASRock ones, but I still prefer Gigabyte

With that Coolserver R64 it's a delight

[pulsar obsidian]

Are Coolserver R64 decent ??

How's the thermal perf under full load ?

[waxen marlin]

i was running 1u machines thank you very much

WHAT
WHAT
I CANT HEAR YOU

[pulsar obsidian]

I was planning to liquid cool both the machines down the line before sending to colo

[clear wedge]

Very good, I've started using it on practically all my servers

[waxen marlin]

my colo setup was great, 1u blades, 1u file server...host just sucked and it was partially cogents fault not theirs, but they also sucked, lied about their teiring. Turned out to be cheaper to just add a circuit at home and roll in an ISP to host. Did transplant eveything into matx cases tho

they had voip customers leaving in droves too, basically anyone who needed a constant connection

[clear wedge]

Hey, there were some people here with this 1U project, but I didn't get around to it. Currently, it's only 2U. Is there any significant change? Because here, basically, it would be the value of 8kVA, normally it's a 4kVA Fullrack. If I used everything in 1U, I would probably exceed my kVA and pay double, so I preferred to use 2U, so the more racks I get, the less I pay

I was worried about the cooling issue, but I think with the right component models, everything fits together correctly

I was wanting to test this new 1U mechanism in a new rack

[waxen marlin]

i wasnt that large scale, and the host i was at you paid per u and got a power budget per rack unit unless you were going rack size. So the only reason to go bigger was to just have another rack unit of power budget. BUT they averaged it out. So i had backup server that I didnt have live except to computer new maps and dynmaps, and i had a file server i stuck a 25w cpu in. It was 240w per u iirc, but i was able to get my mc servers 350ish each if they were actually go ing full tilt, which they werent.
Anyway i could handle a 170w cpu but not a cent more at 1u on any heatsinks i knew

at the time though i was on one of the 12 core am5 epycs that were basically 7000 series and some am4, like a 5950x and a 5800x

i was planning on moving to a 9950x but i had to leave that host, which was a mess.

now there is a new 30 amp circuit in my house and i have 3 internet lines. One for me, 2 for the servers.

Honestly? Been fantastic, but that really depends heavily on the area. I go weeks without dropping enough packets to log out of mc.

and btw when i say a 170w cpu, i wasnt entirely sure i could handle just all core syncthetic load, just normal usage. Like i wouldnt 32 thread world gen on it lol

[static portal]

what contry?

[waxen marlin]

US

speaking of coolers, i think 1.5u needs to come back for these minecraft servers specifically

it's a nice thing but it does exist. It's usually for some weirdo high density multi itx blades

but i think that would be just enough metal to fully cool a 9950x without asterisks, even synthetic loads or mild PBO or something

have a per rack wattage limit?
Slap yourself some spinning rust in the spare space.

[clear wedge]

Interesting, that's something I'll look into in the future. What are your expectations for the release of Hytale? I still remember when Palworld was released, it was total madness, I believe Hytale will be 10 times bigger

It will probably be a sales boom, but it's fraught with several problems related to the game

[waxen marlin]

i dont know.l I think if it's good itll be a quiet start and steady rise. Itll probably be a content driven game, so regardless of an intitial spike it will probably grow as more people make stuff for it. But i dont even know what kind of game it will look like at release. I didnt even really follow hytale during the dev cycle. The hunger for palworld was there because pokemon has crapped the bed for years. Sure people are unhappy about parts of MC, but they still have and play mc they'd have to be convinved to play an alternative.

all i knew is there's a maybe here, and i wanted to be there for it if that maybe was a yes.

i was in minecraft very early, so i'd like to be in this very early too. I even checked out vintage story way back when it was new.

[clear wedge]

Yes, I've been waiting for a while, and it's relatively significant how large and "loyal" the community of a game that never came out can be

[waxen marlin]

i was never part of that, and i was never part of hypixel. But i remember the announcement

[clear wedge]

Vintage Story is very good, it's a shame it's not more "hyped"

[waxen marlin]

i should try it again, last play was a lan co op years ago. I heard its changed a lot. It had a lot there when i played it, just very niche

and i respect it for not trying to be an everything game

[clear wedge]

I'm here because of the dedicated servers, but also because I've been waiting for the game since the launch trailer, so it's a mix of reasons for being here, all good ones, nothing to lose

[waxen marlin]

there are so few games with dedicated servers these days that's part of the reason alone

i grew up on fps dedicated servers. UT, quake. COD, bit of cs

[lilac grove]

yeah not a lot of games end up focusing on that

[waxen marlin]

it's not the most profitable but has the potential for the longest community

[hard walrus]

the subtle advertising 😂

[waxen marlin]

XD

[clear wedge]

I believe that sooner or later, this aspect of dedicated servers will become much more of a focus

[clear wedge]

hahahah My nickname has been like this since the beginning, just in case lol

[waxen marlin]

didnt i say earlier that even if they didnt offer a realms equivelent that a million hosts will come out of the woodwork and offer managed solutions? SEE?

[clear wedge]

True, and more keep appearing

[waxen marlin]

theres not many dedicated games these days, hosting providers live for this. A game that also probably eats memory and single core IPC? They're aroused

joking aside i too am interested in hytale for the hosting side of it and server-side mods. I just want to see where this goes.

[static portal]

the fact that they don't want us to mod the client make me want to mod the client xD

[lilac grove]

I am more so on server plugins side

[serene bay]

I work for a game hosting company and I can assure most are already prepared. We just run everything in docker.

[clear wedge]

If the game fulfills its objective and vision

[lilac grove]

and defo client modding if they ever allow it, my main is C#

[clear wedge]

yeappp

[static portal]

they don't seem to want to
server would be able to give a lot of things for the client but can't modify the code of it

[clear wedge]

When the cancellation notification came through, I was feeling really down.

[formal burrow]

Right now people have been hoarding RAM for AI models, and if you look up Ollama for the open source models, some take dozens, some take HUNDREDS of gigabytes of RAM so people can run their own models

[lilac grove]

people always find a way to mod everything, its not even a question

[static portal]

harmony lib is a great start

[lilac grove]

yep

[clear wedge]

fivem, mta, samp

[lilac grove]

transpiling everything

[waxen marlin]

i was just talking about ram prices more than doubling in less than a month, i am not happy

[tidal sandal]

as they should

[clear wedge]

This is an example to be used

[static portal]

can't wait for the ai bubble to burst, it will be so good

[waxen marlin]

datacenters making my power, water, and freaking computers more expensive. It was crypto then crypo again like 5 more times then it was AI. Always something.

[formal burrow]

What matters is AI can be USED... And AI is usable, just not in the ways people think

[waxen marlin]

my power bill has doubled

[static portal]

yeah, just not gen ai

[lilac grove]

Everyone is banking on the fact AI gets good someday and gets cheaper someday, if it doesnt, the money will dry up

[formal burrow]

It actually is getting cheaper. Deepseek proved that this is a software and optimization issue

Someone on X said that GPT-5.1 is 300x cheaper to query for problems than what it was a year ago if I recall

[static portal]

even in my country the price got up and we export as we are produce more then we need
like wtf

[waxen marlin]

i was just pricing out a mixed system memory gpu larger model build. Finally ready to drop a few grand on having my own AI server. Then memory hit. Ugh

[lilac grove]

if that is true then that maybe good/bad. Bad as in more investments will be done in AI

[clear wedge]

Now, every day that passes, people go crazy on Twitter, constantly refreshing the page looking for updates kkkkkkkkk

[static portal]

that and ICANN Lookup

[formal burrow]

You can run one of Meta/Facebook's models on an 8GB of RAM system according to this video I saw, it won't be as smooth but it's one trained on 127 million books worth of data. The problem is these models are trained to be one-size fits all which is why they are so hefty

[waxen marlin]

my power bill has doubled per kwh since 2017, more recently in fees, but it's not all AI, just the trend in general. They just approved more rate raises. My neighborhood datacenter hasn't even booted up yet.

[clear wedge]

Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[waxen marlin]

so solar in my future

[clear wedge]

Even iCANN, Everyone's gone crazy!

[lilac grove]

there needs to be laws in place at this point, somewhere along the lines of having the datacenter power themselves by building/funding power warehouses.

and not have the government invest in it

[waxen marlin]

it's disgusting, My state also basically banned grid tie solar

[static portal]

like LOW←TECH MAGAZINE do? they host their server on a solar powered pi with battery

[clear wedge]

lol

[formal burrow]

Right now if people want to use AI to write Hytale mods, let's say we even had a summary of the documentation. None of the models are trained to know Hytale's API, so you gotta include Hytale's API in the context window which costs a lot/makes it more difficult for the LLMs to make decisions

[waxen marlin]

i could run my house 100% solar minus like stove and large circuits even in winter before i started home hsoting servers. Now probably not, but i could get close. Just a lot of money i'd have to drop at once, and id have to DIY for it to make sense in the nearrer term

[waxen marlin]

nah itll just make crap up. Or you can feed it, and if it doesnt know how to do something, it would make up a thing that if it could do that thing would be named that. I see it all the time with AI interpreting obscure libraries and stuff

[static portal]

we should ask dev to include some random BS that is obvously fake that the ai take as true

[clear wedge]

I've been maintaining a /hytale on my website for SEO here in Brazil since 2022, I trusted it #trustme lol, I'm always at the top of search results.

[formal burrow]

Right now supposedly there is a 1.8M token context window LLM called Sherlock but idk if it's even good. That should be more than enough context to plug into a model like that.

[static portal]

depend if it follow pattern it already see, otherwise it will just say random thing

[waxen marlin]

more like what it would do if it made a thing to do the thing, averages

[static portal]

its more complex then that (3blue1brown has great video on it) but basicly yes

[waxen marlin]

it's great because i messed around with the paper API and wow, it filled in things I TOO WISHED EXISTED

that was early on before it was even pulling info live

[static portal]

now i wonder what was that, like a magic "optimisation function that trust me totatly exist pls ignore ide"?

[waxen marlin]

something to do with player health or hunger or something not working the wya the other one did

idr it was a couple years ago

[river tendon]

Man I just realized that using the legacy engine means no FLECS, thats a shame. I was looking forward to how it behaved in something this big

[umbral badge]

what is flecs

[river tendon]

ECS library

[thorn grove]

If they leave in a way somewhere to load an external library it is over for them.

[umbral badge]

i still dont know what ecs is

[thorn grove]

I'll just immediately use Harmony and transpile anything I want.

[hexed dagger]

wonder how server side anticheat will work for hytale

[thorn grove]

Is there no client-side anti-cheat at all?

[umbral badge]

ah i see

[hexed dagger]

no idea

[static portal]

why would they make a client side one?
we don't know if there is going to be one

[thorn grove]

Simple really, a clientside anti-cheat can check the file system for known cheating software. It is what BattlEye, Easy Anti-Cheat, and possibly every anti-cheat that ships with the client does.

[static portal]

"can check the file system" ah yes, cause the ouput of fecthing that totatly can't be modified /s

[thorn grove]

Any anti-cheat can be bypassed, that isn't the lesson or point to it. Anti-cheat in many ways just serves as an additional hoop to go through rather than an actual challenge to cheaters.

[hexed dagger]

it's more to deter people who are too lazy or think the effort is not worth it

[thorn grove]

e.g. the effectiveness of that client-side anti-cheat would obviously decrease as time passes.

[hexed dagger]

anyone determined enough will bypass it

it's just to filter people from cheating

[thorn grove]

In fact, here is what you do.

[static portal]

not server side anti cheat, you can't bypass whats not running on your computer

[thorn grove]

Wait for cheating to become a problem, then implement that client-side checking to catch them offguard. As any bypass to that wouldn't be implemented yet.

[hexed dagger]

short term solution to long term problem, imo

[thorn grove]

I agree, but having it at the start will mean they will just adapt to it immediately.
Rather than saving it in the playbook.

[static portal]

most of the time they are catches on the server first

[hexed dagger]

would probably benefit at the start, instead of outright banning people, it could just flag them and ban them after x time or after they log out, makes it harder to troubleshoot into adapting to the new anticheat maybe?

at least for server side

[river tendon]

Its not that hard to visualize if you know some programming. Highly recommend the short series of blogs by Sanders Mertens (FLECS author) as an introduction just google "Building an ECS #1: Where are my Entities and Components" since i cant post links

[thorn grove]

All a debate really, not sure which is better. I feel like someone should do some actual research on the other approach. 🤷‍♂️ Is what it is though, the team already has what they have ready.

[hexed dagger]

there's also the fact of how nicely would a client-sided anticheat play with modded content in servers

[thorn grove]

Modded clientside?

[static portal]

unlikely to be the case

but ofc be don't know yet

[thorn grove]

If the C# part uses the Mono runtime, it would be really easy to mod clientside right away. You could simply modify the Mono runtime library so you can load your own assemblies.
Anything else, no idea. Maybe they were smart enough to use something like CoreCLR.

[static portal]

or use somthing like harmony which is made to mod game

[thorn grove]

Well yeah, Harmony would have to be loaded in using the trick I described though (or a different way, but something like that). Harmony itself, or its creators do not have a tool to inject it off the bat, you need to make your own tool for that.

[river tendon]

I hope client-side prediction is polished, playing at 300ms in Minecraft can be (is) painful

[lean ivy]

yeah

[river tendon]

at the very least i want weird server-client mispredictions in SINGLEPLAYER like ghosts blocks gone

maybe thats a low bar

[static portal]

mc mostly no longer has it, the only place where ghost can happen if when placing a piston to a power soruce while runing from a corner where a cast from a double to a float cause impressision on the piston to have 2 extanded part with one of them being a ghost block

[river tendon]

okay to be fair i havent played for a couple years, but back in the day i spent years mining chunks and getting stuck in ghost blocks and having to quit and enter the world, lost hope that mojang was ever gonna fix that

glad to be wrong

[static portal]

yeah, 1.10 era was... buggy

[spice oak]

Does anyone know which language is going to be develop servers?

[worn tartan]

it's **probably **Java for server and something javascript-y for client, but no one knows for sure of course

[spice oak]

Perfect, got it. Thanks for your answer

[rich solar]

Im finally able to type lol. Whoever was talking about server hosting/custom server builds I use pelican/pterodactyl for all my custom server environments and its been my goto for minecraft hosting.

I run it on a zimaboard/zimaServer system and Multiple nodes between for auto server creation and all that jazz

[lilac stratus]

Puffer panel is not bad for hosting either. I'm using it right now and I've been really happy with it. It's way more simple to set up.

[rich solar]

Yes puffer isnt a bad one. But pelicans ease install compared to pterodactyl self setup is a lot better. So its now my go to over default ptero

[clear wedge]

I also use Pterodactyl

[lilac stratus]

I tried amp out for a while and it had a lot of issues

[rich solar]

Yes! Docker system for hosts is so good

[rich solar]

Yeah amp is just trash and overpriced ngl

[knotty tendon]

is C or C++ better

[marsh zealot]

always C, don't @ me

[modest burrow]

Depends what ur doing big dog

[knotty tendon]

@marsh zealot why?

[loud axle]

Coming from someone who has been learning python the past few months, how hard is it gonna be to jump into C#

[knotty tendon]

programming a ai girlfriend

[knotty tendon]

not that hard imo

[modest burrow]

C++ so you can meta program your life away

[knotty tendon]

but i really want memory leaks 🥺🥺

[river tendon]

very different workflow and it could take you a bit to get used to the strong type system but it shouldnt be that hard if you got the programming basics

[tardy cargo]

python to use all those ai libraries and daisychain them together like everyone else doing ai vtubers and assistants

[loud axle]

I can understand programming basics but I'm pretty rough at learning how to write it, so we shall see how long a bit will be

[worn tartan]

c++ so you could make an ai_girlfriend ptr to void

[prime nebula]

obligatory Rust mention

[knotty tendon]

amazing

[tardy cargo]

speaking of ai girlfriends, imagine that but in a hytale NPC 😂

[worn tartan]

no1 priority mod right there

[knotty tendon]

might do that fr tho

[prime nebula]

peak

[dapper crater]

hytale jenny mod 😭

[prime nebula]

call it penny mod

[worn tartan]

whoever makes a mod in asm first gets $1 paypal from me

[modest burrow]

Bro that’s just not me

[dapper crater]

you don't even have paypal

[worn tartan]

shh

[tardy cargo]

im a c# developer and will have to deal with java for the next year or two when making stuff for this game and i dont really look forward to java's tech stack

[worn tartan]

no prob fella my uni forced me to write a LOT of code in masm

[modest burrow]

Man stop it

[serene axle]

Binary is the best

[worn tartan]

wait stop there are two purps

[teal cosmos]

c++ is fire tho

im not lol but c++ is just fun

[worn tartan]

prplz does ragebating for a living i guess

[mystic rose]

is this fella a rustacian

[teal cosmos]

what if im lazy and like the c++ syntax

[mystic rose]

i think both languages are valid and fighting over which one is better gets noone anywhere

[plain canyon]

I have a question, couldn't you force your way into the java slums by using grpc and protobuf or messagepack and tcp?

[mystic rose]

many high performance applications are running on c++. performance is largely language agnostic if you know what you’re doing and how to optimize. most modern applications are written in c++.

[marsh zealot]

hello? please stop impersonating me

[plain canyon]

me? bro ur talking to urself???

[worn tartan]

these are two different accounts tho

[plain canyon]

Who cares?

[somber pulsar]

vodez is real

[modest burrow]

ur not the real one

wait kohi is written in c?

no wonder its taking so long

[wide lintel]

if you like c++ then try your hand at making a custom Fortnite Game server. i bet you will switch up instantly

[teal cosmos]

i have lol its turbo hell

[wide lintel]

lmao real

[wide lintel]

still waiting for someone to make an open source game server that has actual working player bots and guards/bosses

[teal cosmos]

like 3 years ago I had one for 12.40 with bots and bosses and stuff but i lost the source code :(

also the guy i was working with went crazy and stopped dm'ing me

[wide lintel]

oh thats... really unfortunate.

lol dang. I found one for 17.30 (best season ever) but inventory and vehicles are super broken

the IO guards sorta work.... they dont properly update awareness and they dont ever try to shoot you

[teal cosmos]

ive thought about getting back into fn gameservers but i always forget that its like horrible to work on lowkey

[wide lintel]

yeah. im not even kidding, today i tried to implement xp into the game server i just mentioned and i got exactly 13598 errors when i tried to build

[teal cosmos]

thats how it be sometimes and it sucks

now i gotta focus on hytale modding cause the modding scene will be so fresh and easy to make a crazy project

[wide lintel]

yup. maybe someday epic will slip up big time and manage to leak all the game server source code for every version ever....

well thats not very nice 🙁

[teal cosmos]

cool

[marsh zealot]

are you going to stop impersonating me or not?

[wide lintel]

omg i just noticed that

[mystic rose]

ffmpeg social media manager mindset

[teal cosmos]

i love the ffmpeg social media manager its so funny to watch him say stupid stuff

[mystic rose]

tru

[worn tartan]

what am i reading

[rich solar]

Troll account stuff and responses to troll account stuff

[teal cosmos]

link your github then

[thick panther]

It turns out there will be both plugins and mods?

[mystic rose]

i average ~300-600 DAU and have in fact seen over 1000 players in my lifetime, so wrong person lol

[rich solar]

nah you forgot. The biggest java edition servers. Thats the key word Biggest. 🤡

[mystic rose]

(not on mc)

[somber pulsar]

larp

[mystic rose]

not larp 🥀

[somber pulsar]

i build my roblox empire on x86 assembly

[teal cosmos]

we might be geniuses here