⌨coders-cave

[wet girder]

I coded almost exclusively in python for 5-6 years

or more

lol

[prisma grail]

Dear god, that'd feel like torture if I were to do that with my current knowledge. xD

In some cases, you're by some miracle also just a natural at it.

[wet girder]

Never seen anyone be naturally good at something. Some people just have easier time at learning some things

[prisma grail]

I mean, it's a matter of where you draw the line for how minimal the time/effort required for them to understand the thing is.

When I first started learning Java, I never really had any issues understanding anything, I was immediately able to apply anything the teacher explained in exercises without much thinking about it.

The only time I needed to "study" for a programming test was the first ever test, when I was frantically trying to memorize "public class FileName { public static void main(String[] args) {" for the test, since we were forced to use Notepad++ back then.

[wet girder]

It took me an incredible amount of effort to get out of the tutorial hell and be able to apply what I knew of coding. I partially blame school for that, school was stupidly easy for me always and nothing before learning coding had challenged my brain before coding. Nowadays I've joined Mensa which is mostly just a circle jerk club so I am not that active in it but I found good material there that helped me realize that school was absolutely awful for me. God knows how succesfull I could be if I could've progressed in school in my own pace and not in my classmates pace

[prisma grail]

I also currently feel like I'm wasting time in school, the last time they taught some coding topic that I didn't already understand for a school unrelated reason was almost a year ago. Most of my classmates are all pretty bad at coding and struggle a lot with stuff we're currently learning about like generics, but it's all incredibly boring to me because I know it all already.

[wet girder]

The time I did in vocational school classes was mostly wasted lmao. They were very beginner classes and my teacher noticed I mostly played video games in the class and still completed everything in 10th of the time others did so he sent me to work and I've worked since

[prisma grail]

Only reason why I'm still going is because the degree from finishing is effectively the only "opening key" required education wise by most companies in my country for getting a programming job.

[wet girder]

Is there really no way to fast track it? In Finland you can always do your studies faster (expect primary education for some fucking reason)

[prisma grail]

I mean, that makes sense, I'd assume that that work helped you quite a lot more than staying there could've.

[prisma grail]

I mean, I do have the theoretical option to skip a grade, but that'd probably screw me over in subjects I don't care about like geography/history.

[wet girder]

Also this was when xbox released cloud gaming to game pass which was fucking amazing in school. I just brought a controller and could play xbox games in class

[wet girder]

Doesn't sound like the best system ngl

[prisma grail]

Tbh, I never before used any of that sort of stuff.

[wet girder]

I only used it during vocational school

Never since

Mostly because of the amount of artifacting

[prisma grail]

Theoretically, I could also just start working instead of school right now, but companies would then legally not have to pay me nearly as much as if I had finished school.

I'm talking 2k/month I stead of 3k/month on an entry level.

Companies would probably love the value proposition in that, but I sure don't.

[wet girder]

I have the lowest level degree possible and get paid as much as people with bachelor degrees. If a company requires an education from me over knowledge and experience I wouldn't want to work there anyway

And if I don't get paid fairly I'll just jump ship

Companies in Finland have started learning that it ain't wise to look at degrees

atleast in IT that is

[prisma grail]

Yeah, I think that a most Austrian companies aren't at that point yet.

So I'd rather just go the 2.5 more years of school while working part time.

So that I can then easily get a good job.

[wet girder]

Plus if I don't find a new job I am just gonna go study something. I'd go to fire academy but because I had asthma as kid I can't because too big risk for the work to cause the asthma to return so I've been thinking of possibly studying to be a police, would be cool

[wet girder]

That's fair but sounds like a pain

[prisma grail]

I could never do that sort of physical stuff, way too much effort.

[prisma grail]

I've pretty strongly thought before of getting straight to full time work instead of school, I think that the two main things holding be back from doing it are the fact that my current work place is probably (I have no proof, but would be surprised if not) transphobic, when I'd need to stay with them for a while to get full time work experience to "substitute" for the education, and the fact that the average older person in my country would effectively consider me a school dropout that got lucky.

[distant wraith]

Not trying to be rude, but who are you? 🧐

[jolly field]

You probably don’t remember, but I’m zeivt. Old user.

[barren shale]

"not trying to be rude" proceeds to be rude

[mortal nest]

Hello

😋

[jolly field]

I didn’t find it rude?

[next shell]

Hi

[barren shale]

its a joke smh

[jolly field]

I didn’t find it funny.

[mortal nest]

Hi

[barren shale]

major issue in the skill department

[prisma grail]

(Normal zeivt moment. :P)

[main stag]

can you code

[jolly field]

No.

[jaunty latch]

Then begone!

Leave this place at once

[feral bramble]

(their previous username is Decafa)

[distant wraith]

Right

[flat valley]

L only coders allowed here

[lapis flint]

No

[prisma grail]

I just realised that a very useful Reflection feature in Java for working with generic types doesn't exist in C#, and me having assumed that the feature must exist wasted a whole lot of my time. My hopes and dreams have now forever been shattered by the fact that there's Reflection related tasks that Java can do infinitely better than C#. TwT

(I'm talking about Javas wildcard operator for generic type specification and the lack of it in C# btw.)

[flat valley]

This is why Java is goated

[prisma grail]

C# is way better in most things.

Like, for the love of god, Java literally makes me code out private fields with getter and setter methods.

Instead of having some proper property syntax like C#.

[lapis flint]

Wdym

I think it is in c#, mb i am wrong and misunderstood

[prisma grail]

I couldn't find a way, and StackOverflow also doesn't know one: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/116830/is-there-an-anonymous-generic-tag-in-c-like-in-java .

I'd be very glad if I'm wrong though.

[barren shale]

what is it

[lapis flint]

And how it should works?

[barren shale]

yeah

just do Foo x;

[prisma grail]

The wildcard just means that you have no idea what the type parameter is.

[lapis flint]

So use object

[prisma grail]

Something like a Foo<bool> can't be stored in a Foo<object>, I specifically tried.

[barren shale]

oh

but what would be the return datatype

how would the function work

[lapis flint]

Lets google java explanation

[barren shale]

it seems like this way of doing things is full of problems

[prisma grail]

Don't think so, it works pretty well in Java whenever I used it.

[barren shale]

the point of having a generic is to use the generic functions

[prisma grail]

When you use a method that returns the generic type, you get a ?.

[barren shale]

but how would you use the generic functions if you dont know what the generic type is

[barren shale]

too much ambiguity for a typed language

[prisma grail]

Well, yeah, it's stupid in normal usage.

But can be needed when doing Reflection.

[barren shale]

what are you trying to do

there's probably a way to do it without this

[lapis flint]

I even don't know what to google, googling anonymous generics in java does nothing

[barren shale]

because i never had to think about using this

[prisma grail]

(Btw, I already resolved this by creating a non generic version of the class that the generic version inherits from, so I don't really need actual help with this, I can happily discuss it anyways though.)

[lapis flint]

What ? does in java?

[barren shale]

i mean you can do something like this

class A {

}

class A<T> : A {

}

[prisma grail]

Try something like "java wildcard type parameter", I think that should give good results.

[lapis flint]

Yes

[barren shale]

and then you can

A a = new A<T>();

[prisma grail]

Yeah, that's how I ended up circumventing the issue.

[barren shale]

the non generic functions go to A and the generic functions go to A<T>

but at least here its not amigious as it is with the <?>

[prisma grail]

I'm using Reflection to iterate through every Type of an Assembly, grab ones that inherit from my generic base class, then grab their static properties, then filter out the properties that don't return some implementation of the generic type, and with the other ones, I need to access a field of them that has the generic type as its type and pass that to some other method as an object.

[lapis flint]

Oh, i understood wildcards, its generisation for generics, true, sometimes in c# i need it

[barren shale]

well

[lapis flint]

Let me show example

[prisma grail]

In Java, I can easily use ? for making the steps past grabbing the properties easy.

[barren shale]

use this i guess

[prisma grail]

In C#, I needed to go out of my way to implement a version of the class that doesn't use generics.

[lapis flint]

Nah

It doesnt solves

[barren shale]

it does

[lapis flint]

For example for generic methods

[barren shale]

yeah i dont think in java you get generic methods when you use<?>

because you cant know the type

[prisma grail]

Literally made me write this atrocity.

[prisma grail]

Luckily, it happens to work out in my particular case.

[lapis flint]

No, its can be with extend, like, define base class, and all which inherits from it will work

But in c# it doesn't

[barren shale]

that boxes the default value

[barren shale]

how would you know the return type

[lapis flint]

Base class

[barren shale]

if a function returns T

and I do Foo<?> foo = get it somehow();

[lapis flint]

It is extends something specific

[barren shale]

and then foo.function();

oh

[lapis flint]

I am not talking about this

So, anything inherited from animals can be casted like whole collection

[barren shale]

isnt that void iterateAnimals (Collection<T> animals) where T : Animal in C#

[prisma grail]

I literally needed to make this stupid non generic base class, just so that I can use Reflection to do some stuff with it. In Java, I could do the same thing while having only the generic class.

[lapis flint]

Imagine casting List<string> to List<object> and back just as usual cast

[barren shale]

too much boxing

[barren shale]

do you need the defaultValue in the non generic class?

[lapis flint]

Oh, yes, true, there is more specific cases, i can't remember them

[prisma grail]

Yes, so that I'm able to get it with Reflection.

It's literally the only reason why the non generic class has to exist.

[barren shale]

idk through all my 7 years of using C# i never ran to this problem

[prisma grail]

To what extents do you use Reflection?

[barren shale]

a lot

sb 2 is full of reflection

i use it for spells

and of course other stuff like this

[prisma grail]

Ok, fair, but how about Reflection code that interacts with generic classes?

[lapis flint]

I used it for my bot only for commands initialization

So you have different class for every spell?

[barren shale]

never

maybe dont use generics for this

why do you need your configoption to be generic

[lapis flint]

Still can't understand wdym

[prisma grail]

I mean, that's exactly the feature combination in which I'm running into this problem.

[prisma grail]

So that it's easier to use in non Reflection code.

If I want to access a config option value.

I just want to get its type right away.

[barren shale]

why cant you just add it directly to the config

[prisma grail]

Instead of needing to do weird casting.

[lapis flint]

What do you want to do with generic classes using reflection?

[barren shale]

class Config {
public A ConfigOptionA { get; set;}
public B ConfigOptionB { get; set;}
}

like this

or if you wanna do sections

[prisma grail]

I'm not using my own config made from scratch, I'm building a wrapper on top of the Config system build into the BepInEx modlaoder so that I don't need to worry about stuff like locally saving the data.

[barren shale]

hmmm

[prisma grail]

With its Config system, you get your values as an object, and need to cast everything.

[barren shale]

i guess that's the only way

[prisma grail]

And I'm working on a system that takes care of those aspects for me.

[barren shale]

that's why i never build on top of stuff

[prisma grail]

I didn't know that it'd go so horribly wrong in C#.

[barren shale]

can you show me your code for the assembly thing

reflection thing*

[prisma grail]

You'd be looking at quite the code attrocity.

You want to see anyways?

[barren shale]

ive looked at worse

i have a C# repo from 2015

[prisma grail]

      IEnumerable<ConfigOption> configOptions = typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes().Where(t => t.BaseType == typeof(ConfigOption<>)).SelectMany(t => t.GetProperties()).Select(p => p.GetMethod).Where(m => m.ReturnType == typeof(ConfigOption<>)).ToList().Select(m => m.Invoke(null, null)).Where(o => o.GetType().IsAssignableFrom(typeof(ConfigOption<>))).Cast<ConfigOption>();
      // ReSharper disable once ReturnValueOfPureMethodIsNotUsed
      configOptions.Where(configOption => _configFile[configOption.Section, configOption.Field] == null).Select(configOption => _configFile.Bind(configOption.Section, configOption.Field, configOption.DefaultValue, configOption.Description));

[barren shale]

the code there is very cool

this _configFile is the class you are wrapping?

[prisma grail]

Yeah.

Takes two strings to specific Section/Field.

And an object that's the default value.

Well, and also a description string, but that's kinda besides the point rn. :P

    internal static T Get<T>(string section, string field) {
      if (typeof(T) == typeof(string)) return (T) Convert.ChangeType(_configFile[section, field].GetSerializedValue(), typeof(T));
      return JsonConvert.DeserializeObject<T>(_configFile[section, field].GetSerializedValue().Replace("\\", ""));
    }
    
    internal static void Set(string section, string field, object value) {
      _configFile[section, field].SetSerializedValue(JsonConvert.SerializeObject(value));
      _configFile.Save();
    }

    internal static T Get<T>(ConfigOption<T> configOption) {
      return Get<T>(configOption.Section, configOption.Field);
    }
    
    internal static void Set<T>(ConfigOption<T> configOption, T value) {
      Set(configOption.Section, configOption.Field, value);
    }

I can then conveniently interact with the config like this.

Without needing to worry about any sort of type casting or anything like that.

[barren shale]

send me the code for the config option classes

gotta write this shit on my pc

[prisma grail]

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public abstract class ConfigOption<T> : ConfigOption {
    public new T DefaultValue => (T)base.DefaultValue;
    internal ConfigOption(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
  }

  public abstract class ConfigOption {
    public string Section { get; }
    public string Field { get; }
    public object DefaultValue { get; }
    public string Description { get; }
    
    protected ConfigOption(string field, object defaultValue, string description) {
      Section = GetType().Name;
      Field = field;
      DefaultValue = defaultValue;
      Description = description;
    }
  }
}

These are the base classes.

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class General<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public General(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public ConfigOption<bool> IgnoreCriticalMods => new General<bool>("IgnoreCriticalMods", false, "If true, KeyGUI won't do anything about mods that the server flags as critical.");
    public ConfigOption<bool> OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu => new General<bool>("OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu", false, "If true, KeyGUI will only allow one submenu to be open at a time.");
    public ConfigOption<bool> ForceOpenAllMenus => new General<bool>("ForceOpenAllMenus", false, "If true, KeyGUI will force all menus to be open.");
    public ConfigOption<bool> InitializeAssetFoldersEveryStartup => new General<bool>("InitializeAssetFoldersEveryStartup", true, "If true, KeyGUI will create the most recent needed asset storage structure every startup. This is useful if you want to make sure that mod updates keep the folder up to date.");
  }
}

And from there, I ext4end them like this to create specific sections and their fields.

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class Traits<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public Traits(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public ConfigOption<bool> ShowTraitsTutorial => new Traits<bool>("ShowTraitsTutorial", true, "If true, KeyGUI will show basic instructions on how to use the custom trait maker.");
    public ConfigOption<bool> AutoloadTraits => new Traits<bool>("AutoloadTraits", true, "If true, KeyGUI will automatically load custom traits stored in worldbox_Data/KeyLibraryModsData/KeyGUI/Traits.");
  }
}

using System;
using Newtonsoft.Json;

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class Internal<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public Internal(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public ConfigOption<string> Id => new Internal<string>("Id", "UNABLE_TO_DETERMINE", "A made up ID for some simple data collection during server communication. Change this value to -1 to prevent any data collection from happening, refrain from touching it otherwise. To get data deleted that has already been stored of you, contact [e-mail] with your ID.");
    public ConfigOption<string> WhitelistedMods => new Internal<string>("WhitelistedMods", JsonConvert.SerializeObject(Array.Empty<string>()), "Mods that are whitelisted by the user and won't be flagged as problematic.");
  }
}

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class Items<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public Items(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public ConfigOption<bool> AutoloadItems => new Items<bool>("AutoloadItems", true, "If true, KeyGUI will automatically load custom items stored in worldbox_Data/KeyLibraryModsData/KeyGUI/Items.");
  }
}

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class GameSettings<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public GameSettings(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public ConfigOption<bool> DisableAutosaves => new GameSettings<bool>("DisableAutosaves", false, "If true, KeyGUI will disable the games autosave system.");
    public ConfigOption<bool> DisableBoatsBreakingIce => new GameSettings<bool>("DisableBoatsBreakingIce", false, "If true, KeyGUI will disable the ability of boats to break ice.");
  }
}

With the system as it currently is, I only need to create a new property in one of these sections, or a new section, and I can just use them with the wrapper, without needing to write any extra code for stuff like binding them to the underlying config.

[lapis flint]

I thought my generics are weird

[prisma grail]

I just declare the property; pass it to the Get/Set methods.

And all of the initial config file binding is handled by Reflection.

[prisma grail]

That's quite some interesting nesting. IwI

[lapis flint]

Just for one method

And thats all

To avoid repeats

[barren shale]

@prisma grail ditch the non generic

and use more reflection

its gonna be the same performance as you are still boxing

but it looks nicer

var defaultValues = typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes()
    .Where(t => t.BaseType == typeof(ConfigOption<>)).SelectMany(t => t.GetProperties()).Select(p => p.GetMethod)
    .Where(m => m.ReturnType == typeof(ConfigOption<>)).ToList().Select(m => m.Invoke(null, null))
    .Where(o => o.GetType().IsAssignableFrom(typeof(ConfigOption<>))).Select(x => x.GetType().GetProperty("DefaultValue").GetValue(x));

defaultValues is an IEnumerable<object?>

you might need to remove the nulls if you dont want them with another Where

[prisma grail]

I mean, I'll need to also grab every other property with Reflection.

[barren shale]

oh you need them all

[prisma grail]

Major pain right there.

[barren shale]

yeah i guess the way youre doing it is the only waay

this is the pain of building on top of things

a lot of reflection

a lot of object

doesnt look as clean as normal code

[prisma grail]

Yeah, fair, but if I were to make my own config system from scratch, I can already feel myself somehow messing up the IO aspects.

[barren shale]

JSON it?

File.WriteAllLines(); and File.ReadAllLines();

oh i guess you dont need File.ReadAllLines();

[prisma grail]

I mean the actual file operations and stuff for storing in a local file.

[barren shale]

or write all lines

[prisma grail]

Oh, wait.

[barren shale]

literally just File.WriteAllText();

and give it a path

use / at the start to make it local

[prisma grail]

Well, I already have this logic now, and this rewrite would also mean that I'd need to write code for migrating already stored data from the old system to the new one.

[barren shale]

var json = "AAA";
File.WriteAllText("/config.cfg", json);


var readJson = File.ReadAllText("/config.cfg");
var results = JsonSerializer.Deserialize<object>(readJson);

make sure you wrap it all in a try catch and display an error if it throws

file read/write throws a lot

especially on windows

at least a lot more than expected

[prisma grail]

_Reasons why MacOS is superior: _

[barren shale]

also wrap the json serialize and deserialize

i dont like C# cuz it doesnt tell you all of this can through

there should be a strict option where it doesnt allow you to code like this

[north dune]

can i put it in taco instead of wrapping it

[barren shale]

i wanna enable that on sb 2 and watch it get destroyed

[barren shale]

you can do whatever you want cody

C# stands for Cody Sharp after all

[north dune]

tacode time

[prisma grail]

Nah, make it all unsafe instead. :P

[barren shale]

doesnt do anything

unless you are using unsafe code

[prisma grail]

And then write unsafe code too.

[barren shale]

which even the Unsafe class doesnt have

[prisma grail]

That's what my second message was for.

[barren shale]

i like how the Unsafe class is full of memory safe methods

[prisma grail]

Awesome logic right there. IwI

[barren shale]

its just unsafe because the result you get might not be what you expect

[prisma grail]

Ah, fair.

[barren shale]

Marshal and Unsafe are the classes of the C# gods

i dont dare touch them

also Span

requires too much brain

can give you extra fast for loops though

I've had to touch Memory for sb 2 though

and ever since i feel like ive added a memory leak somewhere

these classes are too dangerous

[prisma grail]

Good that I'm not doing any string manipulation stuff in my mod as far as I can recall. :P

[prisma grail]

What in the world is Marshal?

[prisma grail]

Understandable.

[barren shale]

i mean these kind of optimizations are not really necessary

[barren shale]

good question

i bet it has a good answer too

[prisma grail]

To quote my IDEs docs:
Provides a collection of methods for allocating unmanaged memory, copying unmanaged memory blocks, and converting managed to unmanaged types, as well as other miscellaneous methods used when interacting with unmanaged code.

[barren shale]

sounds like Marshal to me

[prisma grail]

Reading that, I'd say that not touching it is quite the good idea.

@barren shale C# is making my life with this more and more painful by the second.

Rn, I'm getting exceptions thrown at me by Reflection because I'm trying to invoke a getter where the return value has a generic type.

Like, whoever made Reflection in C# seems to have a hatred towards generics.

[barren shale]

are you not giving it the object

show me the code

[prisma grail]

Wdym? The property is static.

[barren shale]

and what exception are you getting

[prisma grail]

Well, it's not in the code I sent above.

[barren shale]

wtf is a static property

[prisma grail]

On accident.

[barren shale]

you mean field

[prisma grail]

    public static ConfigOption<bool> IgnoreCriticalMods => new General<bool>("IgnoreCriticalMods", false, "If true, KeyGUI won't do anything about mods that the server flags as critical.");

I meant that it's got a static modifier?

Something like this.

[barren shale]

what is the reflection code

[prisma grail]

System.InvalidOperationException: Late bound operations cannot be performed on types or methods for which ContainsGenericParameters is true.

[prisma grail]

      IEnumerable<ConfigOption> configOptions = typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes().Where(t => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(t)).SelectMany(t => t.GetProperties()).Select(p => p.GetMethod).Where(m => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(m.ReturnType)).Select(m => m.Invoke(null, null)).Where(o => o is ConfigOption).Cast<ConfigOption>();

The Select() with the m.Invoke() is where the exception is thrown.

Just tried changing it from a property to a field.

C# literally gave me a warning for that right away.

[barren shale]

nah this is a property

[prisma grail]

The above thing is a property, yes.

I also called it that.

[prisma grail]

.

[barren shale]

ye i thought you were using static auto properties

[prisma grail]

No. xD

[barren shale]

so what is the m.Invoke invoking

[prisma grail]

The getter method of the property.

[prisma grail]

All properties where this is happening are something like this.

That's safe to assume; I already debugged through the code to assure that it's grabbing the correct properties.

[barren shale]

but it doesnt make sense

properties of ConfigOptions are other ConfigOptions?

[prisma grail]

And trying to use a field instead of a property gets me a System.InvalidOperationException: Late bound operations cannot be performed on fields with types for which Type.ContainsGenericParameters is true..

[barren shale]

^

[prisma grail]

Imagine it like the enums in Java.

[barren shale]

hmmm

still dont get it

[prisma grail]

That's basically what I'm doing.

[barren shale]

can you show me the whole code for this

like whole file

or a bigger part of the file

[prisma grail]

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public abstract class ConfigOption<T> : ConfigOption {
    public new T DefaultValue => (T)base.DefaultValue;
    internal ConfigOption(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
  }

  public abstract class ConfigOption {
    public string Section { get; }
    public string Field { get; }
    public object DefaultValue { get; }
    public string Description { get; }
    
    protected ConfigOption(string field, object defaultValue, string description) {
      Section = GetType().Name;
      Field = field;
      DefaultValue = defaultValue;
      Description = description;
    }
  }
}

namespace KeyGUI.Menus.ModConfig.ConfigOptions {
  public class General<T> : ConfigOption<T> {
    public General(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description) { }
    public static readonly ConfigOption<bool> IgnoreCriticalMods = new General<bool>("IgnoreCriticalMods", false, "If true, KeyGUI won't do anything about mods that the server flags as critical.");
    public static ConfigOption<bool> OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu => new General<bool>("OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu", false, "If true, KeyGUI will only allow one submenu to be open at a time.");
    public static ConfigOption<bool> ForceOpenAllMenus => new General<bool>("ForceOpenAllMenus", false, "If true, KeyGUI will force all menus to be open.");
    public static ConfigOption<bool> InitializeAssetFoldersEveryStartup => new General<bool>("InitializeAssetFoldersEveryStartup", true, "If true, KeyGUI will create the most recent needed asset storage structure every startup. This is useful if you want to make sure that mod updates keep the folder up to date.");
  }
}

    public static void SetUpConfig() {
      IEnumerable<ConfigOption> configOptionsTest = typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes().Where(t => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(t)).SelectMany(t => t.GetFields()).Where(f => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(f.FieldType)).Select(f => f.GetValue(null)).Where(o => o is ConfigOption).Cast<ConfigOption>();
      IEnumerable<ConfigOption> configOptions = typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes().Where(t => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(t)).SelectMany(t => t.GetProperties()).Select(p => p.GetMethod).Where(m => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(m.ReturnType)).Select(m => m.Invoke(null, null)).Where(o => o is ConfigOption).Cast<ConfigOption>();
      // ReSharper disable once ReturnValueOfPureMethodIsNotUsed
      configOptions.Where(configOption => _configFile[configOption.Section, configOption.Field] == null).Select(configOption => _configFile.Bind(configOption.Section, configOption.Field, configOption.DefaultValue, configOption.Description));
    }

Unless I'm forgetting something, these classes and this method are everything that's relevant to the error.

And that first line of the method is the eroneous one.

Oh, wait, there's two lines there.

The first one is the test I just did with using a field instead of property.

For which I also made one property in general a field isntead.

And the second line is the one for when the classes contain properties.

Both of these throw exceptions when trying to get their values, because said value has a generic type.

[barren shale]

first you might want to add && !t.IsAbstract to the first where

probably wont fix it

but this is a property so it might be causing a problem

[prisma grail]

Fair.

[barren shale]

i think that fixes it

because the only property that has an unbound generic is the DefaultValue

[prisma grail]

No, still gives the same exact error.

System.InvalidOperationException: Late bound operations cannot be performed on types or methods for which ContainsGenericParameters is true.

[barren shale]

you sure its doing it on that exact field

maybe filter to static fields only

[prisma grail]

Yes, I checked in the debugger, and it's only grabbing the desired getter methods, no other ones.

[barren shale]

can you show me the debugger

while hovering on it

[prisma grail]

Results of typeof(ConfigOption<>).Assembly.GetTypes().Where(t => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(t)).Where(t => !t.IsAbstract).SelectMany(t => t.GetProperties()).Select(p => p.GetMethod).Where(m => typeof(ConfigOption).IsAssignableFrom(m.ReturnType)).

A.k.a. all of the LINQ from before the .Select() that invokes the methods.

[barren shale]

after the error happens

which one is causing it

hover on the m in m => m.Invoke

what is the Id property

well

i just ran the code

and it ran completely fine

your error is in these @prisma grail

[prisma grail]

Wait, what .net version are you using?

[barren shale]

.net 8

[prisma grail]

I forgot to mention this, but I'm running .net framework 4.8.

[barren shale]

maybe that's the problem

another reason on why i dont build on top of stuff

[prisma grail]

I need to stay on that version since I'm modding WorldBox, and it's what WorldBox runs.

[barren shale]

unity ☕

[prisma grail]

Totally forgot that I need to point that out, since this channel isn't WorldBox related. :P

[barren shale]

they are going to add .net core support this year apparently

but i dont think wb code base will update

might cause too many problems

but tbh .NET 8 is so much faster than .NET framework that an upgrade would be cool

[barren shale]

have you checked these?

[prisma grail]

It'd definitely be nice, especially as .net framework is only meant for Windows.

So I get to deal with mono instead.

[barren shale]

mono 🤮

[prisma grail]

And stuff is all weird.

[barren shale]

mono is so stupid

[prisma grail]

I will now.

[barren shale]

first i would change .Select(m => m.Invoke(null, null) with .Select(m => { Console.WriteLine(m.name); return m.Invoke(null, null); })

unless you can tell exactly which property is causing the error

with your IDE

the last name written in the console should be the name of the erroneous method

[prisma grail]

Which I can't, because the debugger is stepping weirdly fsr with my setup.

[barren shale]

yeah just do this

because it doesnt seem like these fields are late bound generics

you are specifiying that they are bool in this case

[prisma grail]

Ok, Mono just got onto drugs, I'm quite sure.

[barren shale]

hmm?

did you know which method is causing the problem?

[prisma grail]

The entire console output.

Random NRE.

No line counts.

And break points aren't working correctly.

[barren shale]

why is it giving a different error

did you change the code?

[prisma grail]

It's still giving the right one when I throw the LINQ into an eval console while stepped into the method.

[barren shale]

so which method is causing the error

[prisma grail]

Only method change I made is to comment out the LINQ line that was attempting to use fields.

[barren shale]

did you do this?

[prisma grail]

Yes.

[barren shale]

what did it print?

[prisma grail]

What the above screenshot shows...

[barren shale]

but this

it cant throw the right one

without it giving you the name

[prisma grail]

Well, yeah, the output was weirdly bugged. I was just able to make it work properly by moving the code to somewhere else.

Problem seems to be OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu.

[barren shale]

which is the first property

so its most likely in all of them

[prisma grail]

Yes.

[barren shale]

switch generics with classes

only way

i guess

public class BoolConfigOption : ConfigOption {
    public new bool DefaultValue => (bool)base.DefaultValue;

    internal ConfigOption(string field, bool defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description)
    {
    }
}

public abstract class ConfigOption
{
    public string Section { get; }
    public string Field { get; }
    public object DefaultValue { get; }
    public string Description { get; }

    protected ConfigOption(string field, object defaultValue, string description)
    {
        Section = GetType().Name;
        Field = field;
        DefaultValue = defaultValue;
        Description = description;
    }
}

something like that

not as clean as the generics though

or use

    public static ConfigOption OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu => new General<bool>("OnlyAllowOneOpenSubmenu", false,

might fix it

[prisma grail]

Last thing I could try is to back those with the generics, to reduce the amount of code duplication.

[barren shale]

but you dont get the type of the configoption

[prisma grail]

Should technically satisfy the weird requirement C# is imposing unless I'm being stupid rn.

[barren shale]

what do you mean back those with generics

oh i know what you mean

[prisma grail]

That one wouldn't work for me because it once again means that I gotta do type casting stuff when accessing specific config fields.

[barren shale]

public class BoolOption : ConfigOption<bool> {

}

public abstract class ConfigOption<T> : ConfigOption
{
    public new T DefaultValue => (T)base.DefaultValue;

    internal ConfigOption(string field, T defaultValue, string description) : base(field, defaultValue, description)
    {
    }
}

public abstract class ConfigOption
{
    public string Section { get; }
    public string Field { get; }
    public object DefaultValue { get; }
    public string Description { get; }

    protected ConfigOption(string field, object defaultValue, string description)
    {
        Section = GetType().Name;
        Field = field;
        DefaultValue = defaultValue;
        Description = description;
    }
}

doesnt look too bad

ofc you gotta add the consturctor

but yeah

[prisma grail]

Yeah, could be worse.

[static solar]

Question: Why is ConfigOption abstract?

[prisma grail]

Because my implementation makes it so that the section is decided by the exact subtype that's being constructed.

Section = GetType().Name;

Did that to save myself the writing effort of needing to specific a category via constructor arguments.

[static solar]

Makes sense

[prisma grail]

Since the Section is always the same per subclass.

Gotta say goodbye to that system now though, because of the stupid reflection limitations.

[prisma grail]

Yup, it works now.

[barren shale]

noice

[prisma grail]

(Still kinda hurts though how horrible C# reflection is at dealing with generics.)

[barren shale]

yeah when u use .net framework 4

[rose pawn]

I miss you guys my nerds

[prisma grail]

I'm forced to.

[rose pawn]

✌️

how iz life going h*mza

[barren shale]

we are not nerds

[rose pawn]

u are

[barren shale]

we are femboys

[rose pawn]

you are both

[barren shale]

with our programmer socks

[rose pawn]

all femboys are nerds but not all nerds are femboys

[barren shale]

all fenasi kerim are fake

[rose pawn]

two nerds #⌨coders-cave users hanging out

[prisma grail]

Those sure look very comfy. IwI

[rose pawn]

if only I had a spanish girl to do that with

[static solar]

Most certainly o(￣▽￣)ブ

[prisma grail]

Gives me quite the urge to order some right now. UwU

[static solar]

Same tbh OwO

[prisma grail]

Might even be able to keep me sane while I continue to debug the new exceptions that are now arising in my code. OwO

[static solar]

Thigh highs are proven to raise computer science capabilites by 200 % when worn (p≧w≦q)

[prisma grail]

UwU

[barren shale]

that's why i wear two at the same time

400% increase

[static solar]

Layering

[prisma grail]

Great strats right there.

[prisma grail]

Ngl, I really could need the skill rn. The code is working when I run it normally, but not when I run it in my mod, and I can't attach a debugger to the game on my Mac.

To figure out why.

[barren shale]

wtf

Good thing I never got into modding

[prisma grail]

Yup. IwI

Rn, I literally have to try spamming console logs to try figuring out what's wrong.

I am so done rn.

It's literally finding them.

All.

So why is it not being loaded into the config.

[barren shale]

print out the keys of the dictionary

[prisma grail]

Doing that rn.

Ohhh.

Nvm, I'm a huge idiot.

I'm literally running this on every config value.

Before adding it.

To check if it exists.

Ouch.

I sometimes sure am quite the idiot.

[barren shale]

we all are

[prisma grail]

Fair.

[prisma grail]

The type problems are only getting more attrocious.

[barren shale]

that doesnt look slow at all

good this only run once

[prisma grail]

Literally doing a horrendous type check.

Just to always run the exact same code.

[barren shale]

wait what

you dont need that

configOption does have a value right?

configOption.defaultValue

[prisma grail]

Yes, but if I simply use configOption, the type is object.

And Bind is a generic method.

That only supports certain types.

[barren shale]

oooooh

create a bind wrapper

in the ConfigOption<T>

[prisma grail]

Ngl, at this point, merely reading such statements is making me emit laughs of insanity.

[barren shale]

oh wait this might not work

[prisma grail]

But how do I upcast from ConfigOption onto ConfigOption<T>?

[barren shale]

cause you cant cast to ConfigOption<T>

i feel like there should be a way to make this work

[prisma grail]

Example of when the ? operator would be useful:

[barren shale]

which ?

terenary or nullable

[prisma grail]

Wildcard for generics.

[barren shale]

oh

yeah

[prisma grail]

From Java.

[barren shale]

i guess

[prisma grail]

(? as nullable doesn't exist in the .net framework version of WorldBox.)

No bool?, string?, etc possible.

[barren shale]

oh yeah

everything is nullable

bool? does exist

because its not nullable its a struct

[prisma grail]

TwT

You wouldn't believe how common it is for you to make a small change.

Just for it to result in some random method by the game throwing an NRE.

And the methods tend to be quite long, and stack traces don't show line numbers.

So you don't even get to easily find out what's causing the NRE.

[barren shale]

sounds fun

[prisma grail]

At times, I'm not even sure what's more painful: That, or making a Discord bot in Python.

[barren shale]

dont make anything in python

[prisma grail]

Those two things are pretty much my only personal coding projects atm. TwT

[prisma grail]

AMP moment:

[barren shale]

AMP was a mistake

[prisma grail]

No, only it's programming language was.

Anyways, want to see what I just went through all of that pain for?

All of it just so that I get to have IDE autocomplete for Config values without needing any code duplication for it @barren shale .

[barren shale]

I SOLVED IT

I SOLVED YOUR ISSUE

omg im the best C# dev

public abstract class ConfigOption
{
    public string Section { get; }
    public string Field { get; }
    public object DefaultValue { get; }
    public string Description { get; }

    protected ConfigOption(string field, object defaultValue, string description)
    {
        Section = GetType().Name;
        Field = field;
        DefaultValue = defaultValue;
        Description = description;
    }

    
    public void Bind()
    {
        typeof(ConfigOption)
            .GetMethod("F")
            .MakeGenericMethod(DefaultValue.GetType())
            .Invoke(this, new object[] { DefaultValue });
    }
    
    public void F<T>(T param)
    {
        Console.WriteLine(param);
    }
}

F is the test function here

instead of calling F you'd call the actual Bind function in the ConfigFile

[barren shale]

sometimes things like these make me love typescript

notice how this only gives me two options for the string

the two options i specified here

type inferenace is the heaven C# needs

[prisma grail]

If that were a thing in C#, I could've spent the last 5 hours of my life not suffering.

[barren shale]

yeah

have you tried the solution?

[barren shale]

dis

[prisma grail]

My brain was already so dead on the inside that I stragiht up didn't notice it. TwT

Lemme give it a shot real quick.

I can't even use an ! to surpress the null warning.

[barren shale]

should never be null wrap it in a try catch if you wanna be cautious i guess

[prisma grail]

Nah, I just applied a ? instead.

[barren shale]

or conditional access if that exist

yup

[static solar]

Wait WorldBox modding uses .NET Framework?

[barren shale]

unity does

so yeah

[static solar]

Hell no, I am not getting into modding

.NET Core all the way

[barren shale]

unity will start supporting .NET Core this year

[static solar]

Took them long enough

[barren shale]

but i dont think wb will migrate

even though i think they should

at least a slow one

[prisma grail]

If your code does it's job, I'll forever be in your debt. xD

[barren shale]

sure

the debt that you will never have to pay

must be painful

[prisma grail]

xD

[barren shale]

gotta go sleep

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-sleep-gif-18921510

good luck on your .net framework adventures

[prisma grail]

Good night!

And the code is working btw! UwU

[queen zodiac]

📸

[prisma grail]

@barren shale Giving up on improving it for now, but whenever you see this, this that I've got a shot at somehow bypassing C# restrictions by grabbing the MethodBody, stuffing the IL instructions into a DynamicMethod, and then running that?

[static solar]

Yay

[tame socket]

idk can i post here about unity

but

how to remove this light

[barren shale]

i dont think that's possible

and i dont think it would look cleaner

[prisma grail]

Yeah, ok, that's fair. I'm just kinda grasping at whatever at this point, should probably instead just accept the system for what it already is.

[barren shale]

Tbh I used to do this a lot but then I stopped and started optimizing on the go

Because sometimes you don’t really know how you want it to be in the end

[prisma grail]

Fair, though there's one thing bugging me like crazy about my current implementation.

I have these methods that construct the Options for me duplicated in every class.

But if I were to move them to a separate utility class, I'd need to specify the section every time, instead of being able to put it into the methods.

Theoretically, if I could inherit, this wouldn't even be a problem because I could just get the class name of the specific type as the section.

But I can't inherit since it's all static.

Wait, nvm, I'm an idiot, I can just make the parent class a singleton.

Yeah, ok, nvm all of that, I was just casually forgetting that design patterns exist, Ig.

[prisma grail]

@barren shale Turns out that we were being stupid yesterday all along, not C#. Simply gotta add this Select, and C# can suddenly deal with the generic types.

[prisma grail]

Yeah, the only weird generics workaround that's still in there is your Reflection code in ConfigOption.

[barren shale]

I mean it was working for me

[prisma grail]

And it can also work in .net framework with that single extra select. TwT

[barren shale]

Noice

So now you don’t need the extra classes?

[prisma grail]

Yup, I was able to go back to the General<T> thing.

[barren shale]

Pog

[prisma grail]

Indeed, the code is so much better to look at now.

[barren shale]

the power of reflection

[swift sand]

https://tenor.com/view/dan-shiffman-coding-code-debug-bug-gif-26568329

[barren shale]

this guy is what aspired me to code in 2015

[dusty kernel]

buy a new pc before debugging anything

[tame socket]

Scary alert

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/737366063687139419/1201608068572655748/image.png?ex=65ca6fb8&is=65b7fab8&hm=7329e153b0b4120781884a786f0f6a69d764459a63d0d3d00f09b523d5c97e4d&

[wet girder]

What are you making in Unity?

[young flume]

horror game

prob

[tame socket]

escape from gok 3d

in ps1 style

[tame socket]

What do u think

(i tired from blender)

[barren shale]

uhmm the lighting

is that a model?

[tame socket]

Yeah

ps1 style

[barren shale]

hmmm

[tame socket]

😭

I can send u more images

[barren shale]

nahhhh im good

[tame socket]

Damn

Im depressed now

[barren shale]

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-kermit-the-frog-tea-tea-day-sipping-tea-gif-15288264

[spare mirage]

Yo can I have some C# vs C++ memes lol

[barren shale]

no

[spare mirage]

😦

[prime kiln]

one of you shut-ins should make an interface ideal for map wars

[static solar]

No experience in graphical design 😔

[barren shale]

we need this in C#

this is sooooo hottttt 🥵 🥵 🥵

[prisma grail]

Union types?

Or Optionals?

[barren shale]

neither

i guess its a union type but a specific feature in the union type

when actionButton is true, action is defined

when actionButton is false, action is undefined

so if i check if the action button is true, the typescript language server knows that action is defined in the if statement

it makes making optional arguements so much easier

so i guess its not neither

its both merged together

[prisma grail]

Ah, I see, the syntax tripped me up because I barely do any TS.

[barren shale]

yeah ts type syntax is super confusing

[lapis flint]

The feature that almost sold ts to me

[barren shale]

why almost though

ts is the best option for web

and a pretty good option for small projects

[lapis flint]

Because i didn't work on js after species box

Only c# for now

If i will need to do something on js, ts will be used of course

[barren shale]

yeah

js is basically unusable for more than 2 files imo

[lapis flint]

After sb i understood that fully 🫠

[barren shale]

i saw

[barren shale]

this beautiful piece of art just took 3 hours of my life

worth it

[lapis flint]

I made sb and ncms by working on both projects at same time, because i wanted to done them before wb steam release, it was a rush, this is why its not so good 🫠

[barren shale]

yeah when i heard how fast sb was done i was impressed tbh

i wouldnt be able to do it this quick

[queen zodiac]

kinda off

[tame socket]

https://tenor.com/view/ltg-low-tier-god-yskysn-ltg-thunder-thunder-gif-23523876

ik

Literally my first project

[tropic dagger]

I'm need to commit to either learning masm or opengl doing both is greatly impacting my sanity I think I'm hearing voices 💀

Even just programming. I was awake for like 40hrs the other day just reimplementing C standard library functions to add functionality because I didn't like the current function base's limits

[queen zodiac]

Learn everything

You’ll thank me for this advice later by killing me

But heh

It’s for science

[tropic dagger]

My ultimate goal in this industry is to make it more approachable so this isn't a terrible idea

[queen zodiac]

Welp, you’re fucking crazy

You really do hear voices

[tropic dagger]

I thought I made that clear 😭

Plus this is worldboxcord we're all crazy

[queen zodiac]

Shhh

they might hear you

[tropic dagger]

This resolution of mine came to me in a hallucination

[queen zodiac]

No wonder

[tropic dagger]

they told me of my purpose

It would be unwise to not follow their decree

[queen zodiac]

True

Let yourself be guided into the grinder

Cya in there

[tropic dagger]

Of course

Good luck with your mission, whatever that may be 🫡

[queen zodiac]

🫡

[wintry maple]

What should I start eith to learn coding like I assume Python

[queen zodiac]

Don’t code. Easy as that

[vital vector]

@queen zodiac

[wintry maple]

Bro

I wanna start

[queen zodiac]

Mmmh

[wintry maple]

I wanna be a developer in worldbox team so yeh

[queen zodiac]

Worldbox will be finito when you’ll graduate from coding, my boy

[wintry maple]

Oh so it will take 6 years then

Xd

[wet girder]

Depends what you want to make. If video games are your goal try C#

[wintry maple]

Ohk

But isn't game like minecraft made on Java?

Oh wait a sec I just realized I need to learn C and c++ before java

[wet girder]

Minecraft is the only big game made in Java

Indie games are usually made in Unity with C# including WorldBox

AAA games are usually made with C++ using UE or similar game engine

Imo C and C++ are not a good starting point to learn coding

[wintry maple]

Oh

[barren shale]

you dont need to learn anything before anything

[wintry maple]

Fr I thought their would be more

[barren shale]

you can learn any language at any time

[wintry maple]

Oh

I will start with C

Then

[wintry maple]

I personally love indie game will if so I guess C is my target

[wet girder]

C# is for indie games

Not C

[barren shale]

C works but its 20x times harder

or 100x

or 1000000x

would not recommend for beginners

[wet girder]

C is mostly used for embedded

[wintry maple]

C# ohk let's me do a quick YouTube search

[wintry maple]

C# ohk let's me do a quick YouTube search

Ohhh

Ok then I will go with C#

Then

[lapis flint]

[tame socket]

Do u have experience with unity??

U can help me improve my goofy ass game

[queen zodiac]

Why ask me questions. Ask the nerds around here questions.

[tame socket]

But you are

[queen zodiac]

Mf

[queen zodiac]

[wet girder]

Is there some specific problem you're encountering?

[tame socket]

Not yet

[tame socket]

rn my only prpblem is

mf blender

[wet girder]

relatable

I fucking suck at using blender

I have friends who are amazing with it but I can barely make anything with it

[barren shale]

its not a problem

its a skill you havent acquired yet

go practice

[carmine pecan]

Hi

[next shell]

hi

[late torrent]

Bye

[fossil oracle]

he's holding them wrong

[dusty kernel]

Hi

[lapis flint]

Hi

[queen zodiac]

Hi 🤖

[static solar]

Hi

[rocky elm]

Hello

[warped widget]

Guys tell me why active all code not work for me @everyonw

[fallen siren]

hello i am new to coding but i know coding but i don't what app to use to code

mod

[lapis flint]

Visual studio code enough to make mods, its like a notepad, but very powerful

But for codding better to use visual studio (not visual studio code)

[quartz pumice]

What

I've only had bad experiences with visual studio

And it gets worse with each passing version

While visual studio code has only done good things for me

https://youtu.be/X9YHNsTF8Ew?feature=shared

like that video you haved to fucking deal with all of vs's shit, and it traps you into vs if you don't use cmake

And it's broken half the time

Meanwhile the only problem I've had with vsc so far is the settings not carrying over instantaneously from wsl to desktop

and vsc is 80 gigabytes while vs is 200 megabytes, and mingw64 plus all the libraries I installed make like 50 megabytes

[cunning sparrow]

What languages are y’all using? I’m over here locking in trying to get better at Java

[static solar]

Why does everybody try to learn Java?

[queen zodiac]

I use grass 👍

[static solar]

Like why

[queen zodiac]

Minecraft suckers I guess

[static solar]

So many people uniformly decide they want to learn it

[north galleon]

Hey I need help with something, if anyone has taken Computer Science A and did the resource finder projects where do you find the data file to start the project, I can't find it anywhere in the page, online, by my teacher, so I'm at a lost

[queen zodiac]

That’s... specific

[north galleon]

I've been searching for a solution all day and litterallly nothing about it has come up

So I'm slowly going down into insanity

[queen zodiac]

Punch your teacher a few times and ask him. Always works

[north galleon]

Will do, however if anyone knows anyone, tell me

[north galleon]

Another problem I'm having: so I'm tryna make blackjack in Python, but this error keeps coming up AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'point_value' and no matter what I do, any fix, any video tutorials, nothing works

So anyone got a solution or tip

[quartz pumice]

class

[quartz pumice]

your trying to do (probably)

a = "whatever the hell"
a.point_value
``` I think

which is weird and why are you programing objects in python at that skill level

[lapis flint]

Why i found out this just now

It looks so clear

Removes so many repeats

By this way c# will looks like js because of lack of types in code

[barren shale]

doesnt remove so many repeats if you use var

i prefer var

[lapis flint]

Yes

But in intialization for properties it is good

[barren shale]

i guess

i always initialize in constructors

but yeah its useful if you dont do that

[lapis flint]

In game engines usually initialization of components happens not in constructors

Unlike unity godot allows to use constructors but i got used to do it by this way

[barren shale]

yeah i used to use var a lot before new()

so i just got used to it

too hard to stop a habbit smh

[north galleon]

It's been a 2 year gap since I coded anything related to this as I've been focusing on another coding language but now I have to take this specific class for this coding language again

But thanks for the help

[cunning sparrow]

I had no choice in the matter- my school has me doing it. But I’m learning C# and eventually C++

[tropic dagger]

If your goal is to learn a language, I wouldn't recommend including an intermediary language, especially if the goal is to learn something like C/C++. The features of one language will disrupt your learning of the features of another and playing the de-abstraction game of going from a high level completely object-oriented language to a "mid" level language like C/C++ is very difficult. I'd say focus on C++ now if your goal is to learn C++. This will also make it much easier to learn C# if you want to use C# for whatever reason.
My sith lord advice is fuck object oriented programming, drop out of school so you don't have to learn Java, learn C, and do crazy shit

[queen zodiac]

Holy-

[tropic dagger]

I got carried away but it's good advice I swear 😭

[wet girder]

My sith lord advice is fuck object oriented programming
Bro what, C# is literally 😍

[tropic dagger]

You are the enemy

[wet girder]

Also C# is not even close to high level if you comapre it to the likes of JS and Python

I do also know how to write C and C++ but I rarely ever use them

[tropic dagger]

Compared to C it is

[wet girder]

fair

[tropic dagger]

I mean fair enough

[wet girder]

but it's pretty mid level language

[tropic dagger]

It's a high mid level

[wet girder]

I can agree to that

[tropic dagger]

Optionally garbage collected

🤝

[wet girder]

Tbf I use C# mostly because I got a job where I use it

I'd like to get into embedded programming tho

which afaik is mostly C

But I kinda suck at C rn so I gotta get a bit better in it lol

[orchid frigate]

If you want money => learn c#
If you want fun => dont

[barren shale]

Disagree, you can start with any language without it having a negative effect

[orchid frigate]

Assembly 🤭

[barren shale]

Any

[tropic dagger]

Higher level languages tend to have a lot of abstraction which can make a migration to a lower level language a bit jarring

[tropic dagger]

True

[barren shale]

A bit less jarring than learning from scratch

[tropic dagger]

Not in my experience

[orchid frigate]

Imagine you had to learn what a pointer is while not even knowing what a string is

[tropic dagger]

This

[orchid frigate]

Or the basics of memory

[tropic dagger]

My point exactly

[orchid frigate]

Isnt that the opposite of your point

[tropic dagger]

No?

[orchid frigate]

Whats your point

[tropic dagger]

Higher level languages add too much abstraction

[barren shale]

I’ve taught programming to over 70 people, the ones who had previous programming experience learned faster than the ones who didn’t

It didn’t matter what language the previous experience was in

[orchid frigate]

Im lost on what the topic is

[tropic dagger]

I struggled switching between higher and lower level languages 🤷‍♂️

[orchid frigate]

How

And which

[tropic dagger]

I learned a lot more focusing on C++

[barren shale]

But you’ve never learnt a lower level language before a higher level language

[orchid frigate]

Transitioning from c# to c++ took me a week at most

The first time

[tropic dagger]

Python and js into Java into C++

[orchid frigate]

Well you learned the two highest possible language

[tropic dagger]

This is true

[orchid frigate]

And then switched to c++ obviously it's not gonna be a breaze but still

It was definitely easier than goikg from nothing to c++

[tropic dagger]

Responses will slow

Sorry I'm boarding my bus

[barren shale]

I used to think it would be harder to transition from high level to low level

But after teaching all of these people it turned out that it’s the opposite

[orchid frigate]

Its def the other way around

Going from c to c# is such a headache

And js is just js

Its not even a topic

[barren shale]

I don’t think it is

[tropic dagger]

I think a lot of misconceptions and bottlenecks could've been avoided if I just leapt into low level, obviously some of it would've been harder but I struggled with the idea of memory for quite a while because I didn't start actually thinking about how it worked

[barren shale]

Having any programming experience makes it easier

It doesn’t matter what the language is

[tropic dagger]

It makes learning syntax easier

[orchid frigate]

Yea but still

[barren shale]

Learning syntax is a joke

Most languages have the same syntax

[orchid frigate]

Functional to oop is 😶

[barren shale]

And it takes a couple of days at most to learn a syntax as someone who never looked at code before

[tropic dagger]

Okay?

[lapis flint]

Thats why learning python as first language is not good because of syntax

[tropic dagger]

I mean, kinda, but even C and C++ are very distinguishable

[tropic dagger]

Very much true

[orchid frigate]

Python was never supposed to be created

I fucking hate it

[barren shale]

That’s a different type of programming
When learning it you should see it as something new

[tropic dagger]

Python is a great scripting and prototyping language

[orchid frigate]

Bro they are so similar

Gcc and compile c++ code and the other way around

[barren shale]

99% the same id say

[tropic dagger]

bool 🤷‍♂️

[orchid frigate]

I learned g++ exists a few months ago

[tropic dagger]

gcc is the compiler collection

It includes G++

[orchid frigate]

Just define it yourself its muscle memory

[tropic dagger]

C++ hates the preprocessor

[cunning sparrow]

I see. I’m going to eventually make a network scanner out of Java for training purposes

[orchid frigate]

The only difference they have is c++ has shitty oop noone uses and structure declaration

[tropic dagger]

It also has STL which is a blessing and a curse

[barren shale]

Uhhh

[tropic dagger]

And namespaces

[barren shale]

That’s the point of cpp

[tropic dagger]

C++ has strayed from C in many ways

[barren shale]

Idk these days I feel like it’s a waste to use C/C++ for anything not embedded these days

Low level?

Go or rust

Super fast

Way better DX

[orchid frigate]

Rust 😍

[tropic dagger]

I disagree, the problems rust solves are not worth writing such ugly code 😭

[orchid frigate]

UGLY????

[tropic dagger]

I should learn rust eventually

[orchid frigate]

Nah bro you dead to me

[tropic dagger]

😭

[barren shale]

Writing rust is still way better DX than C/C++

[orchid frigate]

You dont fucking insult my baby and get awya bro

[barren shale]

DX is really important

You don’t wanna spend 7 years writing your code

[tropic dagger]

Well, C++ is becoming closer to Rust and C isn't object-oriented

[barren shale]

Rust isn’t oop

[tropic dagger]

It isn't?

[orchid frigate]

No

[barren shale]

No

[tropic dagger]

Holy fuck

[orchid frigate]

Its perfect is what it is

It has very very very powerful structures which are basically like objects

[tropic dagger]

Now if only it looked like C++
Unreadable syntax sugar my beloved

[barren shale]

Eh

[tropic dagger]

Like C

[barren shale]

Not really

[orchid frigate]

Wdym not really the entire language revolves around them

[orchid frigate]

Yes X1000

[barren shale]

I mean they are not like objects

[tropic dagger]

I'd argue basically all languages are built data structures in some way

[orchid frigate]

Similar use case or smt

[tropic dagger]

Well, not basically

Objects contain behavior

[barren shale]

But yeah C/C++ should not be used in 2024

[tropic dagger]

If there are member functions then it's an object

[orchid frigate]

Embedded 🤓☝️

[tropic dagger]

I disagree

[barren shale]

No excuses to use them

[barren shale]

The only reason

[tropic dagger]

I think rust should set an example

It shouldn't replace anything

[barren shale]

It’s not about replacement

It’s about DX

[tropic dagger]

That's exactly what you're saying 😭

[orchid frigate]

Also if you need to mix assembly its better to go with c/c++

[queen zodiac]

I learned something useful from this conversation: y'all can't shut up

[barren shale]

You can write code faster in rust or go

[orchid frigate]

Because the rust way of transitioning to assembly is

[barren shale]

And it doesn’t run slower than C/C++

[orchid frigate]

Not great

[tropic dagger]

If your goal is to write code that will be reused in another language, C/asm is the way. They have standardized calling conventions that make code highly adaptable, as was the point of the language

[orchid frigate]

Your like that kid in the friend group who just listens to a convo without anyone noticing him there, makes a joke that doesn't make sense and goes home to ask why noone likes to talk to him

[queen zodiac]

Lmao

[tropic dagger]

He's redeemable though, he just needs to learn something from our pointless convos

[barren shale]

Yeah C/C++ still have their uses but “I want my code to run fast” is no longer one of them

[orchid frigate]

Yes I took alot of brainpower to make that up

[barren shale]

Go back to #🍻tavern

[orchid frigate]

In fact I took so much brainpower im tired now

I will go chill

[tropic dagger]

If you want your code to run fast, and you already know C/C++, there's no point in learning Rust for a project

[queen zodiac]

[tropic dagger]

Have fun! Cya

[barren shale]

Long term investment

[tropic dagger]

That's not a project

Obviously I need to learn Rust

[fallen siren]

tell me is something wrong?

[tropic dagger]

It's not in any of my projects

[barren shale]

World doesn’t have creatures

[barren shale]

Gotta move on to better languages at some point

[fallen siren]

ok

[barren shale]

Or you will be like the Java and php devs

[queen zodiac]

We're maybe closer than we might think :3

[fallen siren]

i dont know how to fix this

[barren shale]

Something to learn I guess

[tropic dagger]

No I have a Frankenstein type master plan for a code-only game engine I'm working on

No need to write a scripting language for modding/general usage when there's already a very powerful language hanging around that has all the features I'd want heheh

https://tenor.com/view/salem-gif-5996444

[cunning sparrow]

Why must you hurt me in this way

[queen zodiac]

Did you read everything? Get some friends

[cunning sparrow]

I saw something I found a bit relatable so I replied to it. By the way what do you even think chat rooms are for?

[queen zodiac]

To pretend you're talking to others when, in reality, you're talking to yourself or alone (#🌎general )

[plucky cliff]

Why no?

[barren shale]

already said why

not gonna type it again

[quartz pumice]

What if the only modern language I like is Zig?

💀

[barren shale]

better start liking other languages

C/C++ wont stay with us forever

new companies are not using them and old companies are switching to more modern languages

microsoft switched some services from C#/C/C++ to rust the last couple of weeks

[lapis flint]

Assembler will (at least for very long time), so your logic says to learn it

[barren shale]

and C/C++ will stay

but what percentage will be using them?

its growing smaller by the year

"growing smaller"

there are still apps written in visual basic in my country

and they get maintained

[lapis flint]

Negative growing

[barren shale]

@queen zodiac you always here?

[lapis flint]

Our politicians using such phrases

[queen zodiac]

I do not have a life

[orchid frigate]

Zig has so much potential its unreal

[orchid frigate]

Get one its not difficult trust

Zig is like if rust and c had a baby and it was beautiful

[queen zodiac]

Easier said than done

[orchid frigate]

And they named her "Isabella" and she grew up to be the queen of some big ass kingdom

Thats how I imagine zig as a person

[orchid frigate]

You go to a group of people talk to them for 20 minutes they start yapping about the last party they threw you get interested they ask wanna come to the next done

Its literally that simple