dnd-discussion

[severe fox]

lol yeah

and a lot of there features can be subtitued as well

[hidden spindle]

Every archer has infinite arrows unless its a magical one

[ripe nimbus]

they made ranger reliant on DMs using the rules as they are written instead of houseruling them away

[hidden spindle]

Never needed to purchase a Quiver or arrows ever again

[ripe nimbus]

i do think we should remember that every decision like “oh i don’t track carry weight/food/water/ammunition/getting lost” is a houserule

[severe fox]

you over estimate dms they have the same reading comp as players sometimes

[ripe nimbus]

“dnd 5e has no exploration rules! no i haven’t read the dmg why do you ask”

[hidden spindle]

That reminded me why some groups don't use '24 rules... they never understood '14 rules to begin with

[still plover]

Check the listings in #looking-for-players for games that want people, read the details, respond as appropriate and cross your fingers.

Type /looking and select the option for #looking-for-dm to advertise yourself as a new player in search of a group. Be sure to include your regular availability!

There are other Discord servers where people gather for games. You can find them in #looking-for-community .

Aside from here, you could also try LFG areas in sites like Reddit, Roll20 or the D&D Beyond forums to get started.

[severe fox]

one dm i had made it to where if you tried to live off only good berry you'd go insane lol

[ripe nimbus]

5e’s exploration rules could use some work but they’re a pretty good baseline ngl. they need some refining for hexcrawls though. as stated they’re much better suited for pointcrawls

i just have gritty realism resting rules (so the one day duration of goodberry matters and you don’t get it back the next sleep)

goodberry is suddenly much less op for exploration

[hidden spindle]

What's the distinction between the two? Hexcrawl and pointcrawl?

[ripe nimbus]

hexcrawl: you traverse the map open ended like spaces on a board.

[severe fox]

im a thri kreen i dont need to sleep

that feature is so underated i swear

[ripe nimbus]

pointcrawl: you structure travel as choosing destination and break things up by destination/landmarks

[ripe nimbus]

that’s fine, neither do elves

[severe fox]

dhampier are also really fun as in they dont need to breathe

[ripe nimbus]

gritty realism is abt time resting required to refresh resources

[severe fox]

yeah but they arent aware while meditating

[ripe nimbus]

yes they are?

[severe fox]

where does it say that?

[hidden spindle]

Thank you. For the exclamation.

And thank you for that Dhampier. I'm breathing manually now

[severe fox]

oh semi conscious

[ripe nimbus]

it says “during which you retain consciousness”

[severe fox]

i have never seen that

[ripe nimbus]

it doesn’t say semi, it just says they retain consciousness

it’s in the book!

[severe fox]

Elves do not sleep. Instead they meditate deeply, remaining semi-conscious, for 4 hours a day. The Common word for this meditation is "trance." While meditating, you dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive after years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit a human would from 8 hours of sleep.

[ripe nimbus]

Ah, wording difference between 14 and 24

[severe fox]

Sleepless. You do not require sleep and can choose to remain conscious during a long rest, though you must still refrain from strenuous activity to gain the benefit of the rest.

[ripe nimbus]

You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep. You can finish a Long Rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in a trancelike meditation, during which you retain consciousness.

[severe fox]

still impiles they cant move around and such while in that trace which is what i like about thri kreen as well

[ripe nimbus]

sure yeah they have to be inactive

still!

[severe fox]

thri kreen also get a base ac of 13+dex and 4 arms

[ripe nimbus]

i don’t have any of the spelljammer supplements so ive never seen a thrikeen played

my rule is that if you want to play something outside of the books i have you have to bring the book…

[severe fox]

i have pletny of books

also bringing an entire book for one race seems kinda like beating down

[ripe nimbus]

i mean it’s just the principle of “i don’t want to have the burden of spending all the money as the DM, if you want a book’s options byo”

if you were at my table obv other people could share with you if they wanted to play a spelljammer race or subclass or sth

[severe fox]

ive spent too much money on dnd already

spell jammer only has races

also thri kreen arent only from Spell jammers

there also in the forgetten realms as well

[ripe nimbus]

are they in frhof or scag?

im not talking setting coherence wise, just, like, pragmatics of book money

[severe fox]

oh player wise its only in the SJ book

[ripe nimbus]

i just don’t own the book that has thrikeen in it and if you want to play one one of us needs to own the book, right?

so if it’s not me it has to be another player

[severe fox]

i own the book

[ripe nimbus]

well yeah but ur not my player

my point is that im probably not seeing a thrikeen in my games anytime soon

that said no sleep is a fun but imo pretty much balanced just fine ability

[severe fox]

yeah but that stacked on all there other abilites make them an amazing race

[ripe nimbus]

it does mean the party can’t get surprised very often during rests, which is a fine feature

[severe fox]

like them being a Monstrosity makes them immune to any spell that targets humanoids

those little arms can wield light weapons

they can give them self advantage on stealth check

and they have telepathy

[hidden spindle]

I've been meaning to try a Wild Magic Thri-kreen Barbarian. So their little arms can wield a Light Greatsword. And that would be my highlight

[severe fox]

i still want the brutal grip feat from VTOS to be an offical feat

[short brook]

Brutal Grip?

Holy peak

Why isn't this official 😭

[ripe nimbus]

googles oh yeah i don’t like this feat

honestly that’s mostly bc versatile two handed wielding is already at a disadvantage and it’s my favorite loadout for fighters

i loooove me some two handed longsword wieldin

and stuff which just boosts one handed melee even more makes me sad.

also i don’t like feats in general but that’s a battle ive lost

[inner silo]

It seems kind of weird and janky

[short brook]

I'm not concerned with the longsword/versatile part of it. Wielding a heavy weapon with one hand is rad

[clear goblet]

I can't tell you you're wrong for that tbh

[short brook]

what's wrong with feats?

[clear goblet]

The optimization channel 🥀

[ripe nimbus]

i really have a problem with “character builds” and optimization theory in general. i think the more the system emphasizes detailed character creation away from the table the more that takes away from player creativity at the table

[wraith kelp]

guys i got another idea for a character but idk how to make it

[short brook]

huh.

[ripe nimbus]

you stop being like “I can do anything!” and trying funky shenanigans and start being like “Okay i put all my feats into crossbows so now everything gets shot with crossbows”

[inner silo]

I feel like the only issue there could be with feats is that not all of them are perfectly balanced compared to eich other

[still plover]

I feel you.

Upon a time (in Stat Wars SAGA) I wanted my hulking, Strength 20 Trandoshan to throw a troublesome droid out a window and got foxed by the lack of the "throwing droids through windows" feat.

[wraith kelp]

an excrocist or an excrocist who catches bad spirits and demons and feeds on them to survive?

[ripe nimbus]

also i think character creation should be fast if at all possible

[short brook]

That's true.

[clear goblet]

I personally prefer the optimization of characters for the sake of a detailed desire as to how you want your character to play in terms of the character, not combat and power. Feats just make becoming as powerful as possible easier when it really doesn't need to be and when I don't think that should be the point

[short brook]

I see what you're saying

[inner silo]

Dnd rewards focusing on doing 1/2 things very well overall, no?

As in, feats fit the general game design for dnd

[ripe nimbus]

it does a lot less if feats aren’t a big part of your game

5e isn’t that bad with this, frankly. but feat bloat and stuff is the main reason i can’t stand playing 3.5e or pathfinder (either edition)

[short brook]

I like feats though still, makes my character's specialty shine through and i enjoy that

[inner silo]

Idk, i didn't think feats were something overpowered or anything

[clear goblet]

They do, but they're not used as simply as for being extra abilities to add to a character.
More often than not they're used for min-maxxing or something of the sort. That doesn't make them inherently bad though

[ripe nimbus]

it’s not that they’re op or unbalanced!

it’s that they silo you into doing One Tactic Over And Over

and encourage you to do more of the game away from the table than at the table

[short brook]

I don't think that's the case always

[clear goblet]

Definitely not always. But a lot of the time

[inner silo]

A lot of stuff in dnd can be used for optimising. The same thing can be with spells as a whole

[ripe nimbus]

it’s not always the case, no, but it is enough that feats now leave me with a bad taste in my mouth

[inner silo]

Wdym?

[ripe nimbus]

i encourage my players to just take ASIs

[short brook]

I've really never thought of it this way until you mentioned it

[inner silo]

I mean, if i want to play a character wielding a big sword, if there's a feat that lets me do it better, i think it'd be fun for me to take it

[short brook]

ASIs feel so boring though, never catch me taking an ASI

[hidden spindle]

Specialization becomes specialized is interesting in how it actually plays ngl, its good to see that coming from others

[clear goblet]

Well of course, you could say tha about anything. But feats are made in a way that seems like they almost encourage it more than other mechanics when it comes to players who do delve into that field. That might just be me tho

[hidden spindle]

That's why I'm particularly keen on & promote Armor Feats

[ripe nimbus]

character build theorycrafting and such is fundamentally not something where you’re responding to the fictional world around you and making choices as your character. it’s a part of the game that is very… videogamey and encourages engaging with character sheets more than the narrative and world

[inner silo]

Isn't the same thing with spells? There are some spells clearly stronger then others and there are some spells which fit a certain playstyle better then others

[ripe nimbus]

it inspires “my character sheet is a menu of options of buttons to push” gameplay

[short brook]

I like that there's an aspect of that to the game. Feels nice for things to line up.

[clear goblet]

But you'll see players who aren't of that category use spells for much more than that, like even using power spells purely for RP because it's fun and not for optimisation or best possible result. You don't see that with feats

[ripe nimbus]

there’s another thing feat heavy games do that 5e thankfully doesn’t though, which is a lot of air-breathing mermaid powers.

[inner silo]

Yeah, that is true. But dnd is a game where both roleplay and combat are big parts of it. Feats do contribute more to the combat part but, especially some of them can be great for some roleplay purposes

[ripe nimbus]

imagine a game releases a Mermaid race. everyone assumes that mermaids can breathe both air and water. then imagine that Mordenkainen’s Tome of Everything comes out with a mermaid race specific feat saying “you can breathe air.” suddenly something we assumed everyone can just do becomes locked behind a feat because of that feat’s existence. that’s what a lot of feats in feat heavy games feel like.

(5e has examples too—looking at you, barbarian’s reckless attack—but they’re much less common)

[clear goblet]

Of course there are feats that can contribute to the RP aspect. But they simply never get used (with the sole exception of actor) because feats are commonly seen as combat additions in particular

[inner silo]

It's true that a lot of feats can contribute a lot for combat, but I don't see why that's a bad thing

[hidden spindle]

I always vouch for Athlete, Keen Mind, and Observant.

[ripe nimbus]

it’s not abt roleplay vs combat, it’s about whether you’re making decisions at the table as your character based on the fictional situation or away from the table as an optimizing player based on what is theoretically optimal in the abstract

[inner silo]

Most combat feats are weapon stuff to help martials keep up with casters in high optimisation

[inner silo]

I think a guy wielding a greatsword will want to wield a greatsword better in world too

[clear goblet]

It's not inherently a bad thing, until you realize that they're mostly used for optimisation and forgotten about when it comes to the actual creativity of someone's character for the sake of character building and creativity itself

[ripe nimbus]

like, as a matter of fact, you don’t need almost any character customization to have a good rpg because the meat of an rpg isn’t in the character customization, it’s in the decisions you make as your character in the world

[clear goblet]

It borders the line on metagaming and not

[ripe nimbus]

a game which is all character customization and no in universe decision making responsive to the fictional situation is a bad rpg. one which is the reverse can be an excellent rpg.

[humble cairn]

Ehhh ... I think that depends on the player. Some people really like to be able to customise their characters precisely.

[inner silo]

Idk, it might be because i played video games for a long time before joining dnd but i like feats

[hidden spindle]

They usually counter with: the roleplay don't mean anything if they die in combat

[clear goblet]

Of course. But we're talking about the majority here

[ripe nimbus]

your fun is valid, but it’s something that other media do way better than ttrpgs

[hidden spindle]

I give players the standard array to be less precise, aiming for consistency

[humble cairn]

And I don't think you or I could even say what that is.

[glass granite]

I feel like the majority of people would want to be able to customise their characters no? Though that goes to what is classified as “precisely”.

I personally like feats

[humble cairn]

Again ehhhh ... I've played more ttrpgs than D&D and this sounds very assumption heavy.

[ripe nimbus]

im just thinking about what makes ttrpgs distinctive as a genre of media, and what that is isn’t character customization, it’s tactical infinity.

[clear goblet]

I mean the majority in terms of those who use feats. Though it's fair to say that I don't have a clear view in what the majority is, but from my view the side that uses feats for optimization is such

[ripe nimbus]

it’s the ability to say “I want to try to swing from the chandelier!” and to be allowed to do that because you’re not ordering your choices from a menu of options like in a video game or choose your own adventure book

[hidden spindle]

Can't even ASI without it being a feat

[clear goblet]

I like what feats can do. I just don't appreciate how they're often used

[ripe nimbus]

but because you’re immersing yourself in the world and making decisions from that perspective and your character could do anything

and every time you lock something behind a feat, or encourage players to resort to the same tactic over and over because theyve dumped 6 levels and 3 feats into it, and whatnot, that part dies a little

[humble cairn]

And decisions about self identity, aesthetics, characteristics is also part of the creative freedom in a ttrpg.

[glass granite]

In my mind feats are a good way to distinguish one monk from another, or one fighter from the other. They add variety to characters, and while it’s often used to make a character stronger that’s also likely because a lot of fantasies in games include being more powerful.

[ripe nimbus]

eh… i think some character customization/creation can be like this, but feats are choices from a menu of options.

[humble cairn]

Feats, ability scores, etc are kinda just details. Every game does them differently and slices a character along different lines.

[humble cairn]

Ahh yes, that I can agree with, but personal description and personality are a bigger part of that creative meat.

[ripe nimbus]

yeah im totally down with players doing lots of backstory and personal description and personality customization

because that’s open ended and lets you immerse yourself in their perspective and the world

instead of in the character sheet and the mechanics

[hidden spindle]

I picked up Inspiring Leader and everyone was like, are we supposed to call you the leader now?

Strange moment 🤓 I was a Wizard

[ripe nimbus]

again i don’t hate 5e feats with a burning passion just pathfinder feats but hopefully it makes a bit of sense why i am sad that they are no longer an optional rule

[severe fox]

did inspring leader gets changed?

[hidden spindle]

A little bit

[glass granite]

I don’t know many DM’s that didn’t allow feats, but tbf I don’t know too many 2014 DM’s

[severe fox]

oh they just removed the 10 min thing from it

theres dms who dont allow feats?

[ripe nimbus]

i always allowed it, 5e’s aren’t egregious. but i liked them being a marginal thing you could pick up if you went out of your way to ask your DM about it instead of an assumed default part of your character build

[hidden spindle]

Believe it or not, there are

But its undisputed in '24 that feats are in

[ripe nimbus]

allowing feats is the houserule in 2014 remember

[severe fox]

what?

[ripe nimbus]

feats are not a default part of 2014 RAW

[glass granite]

Optional rule, not house rule, no? Aren’t house rules specifically homebrew?

[hidden spindle]

Optional yeah?

[severe fox]

yeah

its like calling 2014 epic boons house rules

even through most of them were terrible

[tidal bough]

Generally newer dms that arent comfortable with certain builds but ye

[severe fox]

ive never heard of such a thing

[tidal bough]

Its rare but ive been in a game with it

[paper portal]

the reason they stopped them from being optional rules is cus the vast majority of people used them to the extent that they might as well be normal rules that dms can choose to ban/ignore just like any other

[ripe nimbus]

i think “we are using optional rules not part of the game by default” counts as a house rule. id consider using sorcery points, proficiency dice, gritty realism, or background proficiencies houseruling too

[paper portal]

theres probably more dms that ban spellcasting than there are that ban feats

[viral kraken]

i can't imagine taking an asi instead of some other feat

[severe fox]

that just seems weird

[severe fox]

how is using a class feature house rules?

[ripe nimbus]

sorry spell points

the dmg rule that replaces all classes’ spell slots with essentially sorcery points

obv sorcerers existing is not a house rule

[severe fox]

sorcery points alter spells through dont they?

[ripe nimbus]

i misspoke

[severe fox]

also i dont think there house rules if dnd adds them as an option

[hidden spindle]

That'd be a fun game ngl

[severe fox]

like drinking a potion as a bonus action

thats a house rule

[paper portal]

its cus of this, theres a certain point where optional rules are omnipresent enough that people stop even realizing theyre optional and at that point they might as well not be

[viral kraken]

no that's just how it works in 2024

[inner silo]

Would you let elemental adept to work with warrior of the elements?

[paper portal]

yeah cus some house rules are popular enough for them to adopt the idea

[severe fox]

no

[hidden spindle]

That'd be a house rule

[severe fox]

its good enough as is

[inner silo]

I see

[severe fox]

it doesnt not need to cover come resistance as well 😭

[hidden spindle]

You're better off with Tavern Brawler

[ripe nimbus]

i mean the entire “optional rules” section of the dmg is essentially “here are examples of how you could houserule the game”

(i also think this is partially because dnd community uses “houserule” and “homebrew” differently than im used to in other rpg communities)

[inner silo]

Speedy it is then

[severe fox]

house rule and homebrew are the same thing no?

[clear goblet]

I was about to ask

[ripe nimbus]

only in the dnd community have i ever heard it used that way

[clear goblet]

That's interesting

[severe fox]

house and home are pretty much the same thing? 😭

[viral kraken]

i mean, ya by definition the rules are the house rules that they wanted to publish. the base is just some house rules gary gygax made up and adapted lol. not sure that adds clarity tho, since it being in the official rules makes it definitionally not house rules anymore, but instead official rules

[severe fox]

there both made by players instead of offical WOTC rules

[ripe nimbus]

“house rules” elsewhere mean “variations in the rules from standard/default particular to that DM’s table” and “homebrew” means “added races/powers/abilities/etc.” pretty strictly

“homebrew campaign” and “homebrew rules” are still such jarring phrases for me

[clear goblet]

Houserule: A rule made by the house
Homebrew: To do with being brewed (made) by the home (house)

[hidden spindle]

The only distinction I use for homebrew is, if its new and not in the rules.

Optional are written to be optional like Initiative Score

[severe fox]

i always thought homebrew was just non offical content

not to be confused with 3rd party content

[hidden spindle]

Usually yeah. 3rd party is also homebrew

[ripe nimbus]

homebrew to me means “i created a new power/ability,” i have never used it to refer to rulesets or campaigns and now that im on this server and people do it weirds me out

[severe fox]

kinda

[clear goblet]

Pretty much. Anything made outside of official published content

[severe fox]

since wildemount is in a weird middle ground

[viral kraken]

it's odd to call partnered stuff homebrew imho

i would call it third party rather than homebrew personally

[clear goblet]

In my head, homebrew is literally just anything that's been made by a player or dm (so at home), rather than something preexisting in the books

[glass granite]

Tbf third party is still homebrew

[ripe nimbus]

yeah that’s how dnd players use it ive noticed

[severe fox]

homebrew is stuff not made by WOTC is the general term

[viral kraken]

tbf first party is homebrew, just the homebrew of the developers, but this partnered content is something else too

[glass granite]

Wait first party is homebrew?

[ripe nimbus]

and its fine it makes etymological sense and all

it’s just not how im used to using it so it’s a weird culture/language shock

[glass granite]

That makes sense

[severe fox]

i still dont like falling rules in dnd

[viral kraken]

ya some folks just came up with it like we did. it's just not a helpful description of it since it is also official, just like it's not helpful for partnered stuff since it is also more accurately described as partnered

[short brook]

it caps out doesn't it?

[clear goblet]

Neither do I 😭

[severe fox]

20d6 yeah

[clear goblet]

Yeah at 20d6

[short brook]

I like that

[severe fox]

but falling 500ft a round is silly

[clear goblet]

Which makes no sense to me

[ripe nimbus]

if you make a new power or race or subclass at home, that’s homebrew to me.
if you change the rules but aren’t adding new character options, you aren’t homebrewing, you’re just houseruling. they’re more or less mutually exclusive categories to me.
if you’re writing your own campaign, you aren’t doing either homebrewing or houseruling. you’re just writing a campaign.

[severe fox]

you go from air to floor within 6 seconds

[glass granite]

That’s the optional rule, by base it’s instant

[short brook]

I mean if you can survive falling that I don't think it exponentially rising is better

[severe fox]

i see

[clear goblet]

That last part is funny to me

[clear goblet]

I mean, yeah that checks out

[ripe nimbus]

this is perfectly realistic if you do the math

i did it once because it bothered me too but then i was like “shit, it actually is that fast”

[severe fox]

i dont think you've fallen from 200ft before

[glass granite]

No I haven’t

[hidden spindle]

If the fall speed is assumed to be Instantaneous, that's instant combustion...

[short brook]

maybe

[severe fox]

but air resistance isnt a THING in dnd

[short brook]

nah i'd tank that

[severe fox]

so maybe it is accurate

[clear goblet]

Consider the fact that if you fall from an airplane mid flight, specified by the rules, you take 20d6 damage (max 120)

[buoyant oar]

Trying to mimic physics in DnD is specifically advised against In the 5.5e rules.

[severe fox]

its in both rules i think

[hidden spindle]

No. It's that the rules don't simulate physics. Physics is still very real

[viral kraken]

see that's unrealistic, commoners survive falling out of planes irl, so min damage must be lower

[short brook]

I mean 120 damage would kill like 30 commoners

[severe fox]

reverses your gravity

[hidden spindle]

No no no

[severe fox]

makes a black hole

makes a mini sun

creates someting from nothing

[hidden spindle]

Make a new universe

[glass granite]

Turn off strong nuclear force

[turbid sand]

guys

[glass granite]

Hallo

[ripe nimbus]

well, no, but have you?

[clear goblet]

Please explain to me how if I fall at terminal velocity, I can survive just because I'm 20th level even if I have a strength score of 4

[severe fox]

i went skydiving once

[hidden spindle]

CON 20

[ripe nimbus]

i have however calculated how long it would take to fall 500ft and 6s is about right

[ripe nimbus]

did you know when you were 200ft in the air?

[viral kraken]

commoners survive falls out of planes on rare occasion irl

[buoyant oar]

Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world. Don’t let players argue that a bucket brigade of ordinary people can accelerate a spear to light speed by all using the Ready action to pass the spear to the next person in line. The Ready action facilitates heroic action; it doesn’t define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round.

DMG 5.5 Chapter 1

[clear goblet]

Con is meant to be mostly internal though, though?

[severe fox]

no i was around 8000ft in the air

[hidden spindle]

"Rules"

[clear goblet]

However, what if I fall from space after entering the earth's atmosphere

[clear goblet]

I also did calculate this once

[ripe nimbus]

yeah! and you probably didn’t check to see how long it took between 8000 and 7500ft

[buoyant oar]

"Physics"

[turbid sand]

why the hell some dm looking for player and then abandoning them

[glass granite]

Because you’re 20th level, you’re a damn demigod (ish)

[hidden spindle]

Exhilarating isn't it

[ripe nimbus]

unless you brought a stopwatch while skydiving

[severe fox]

it was pretty fun

[viral kraken]

you'd still slow down to terminal velocity as you fell. if you were going much, much faster than that before you hit the atmosphere tho... 🔥

[clear goblet]

So then what if I'm a 20th Level Bard 🥀

[severe fox]

barbarian rage staring at fall damage:

[hidden spindle]

Whoa whoa, its Instantaneous ~

[clear goblet]

So basically, just because I'm simply going at terminal velocity, I'm surviving a fall from that high? 😭

[glass granite]

You’re still a damn demigod :D

[severe fox]

no but they can hold it for 10 mins

[glass granite]

Monks laughing at fall damage (monk supremacy)

[severe fox]

honestly forgot monks can do that

[viral kraken]

i mean like 9 people irl have survived without a chute, odds are not great, but i would def buy a fantasy character at level 20 surviving no problem

[hidden spindle]

Wizards who forgot to prep Feather Fall for this exact moment

[short brook]

Don't they take half damage?

[ripe nimbus]

dnd characters past like tier 1 or 2 are basically not human. you also can’t shrug off a hit to your body with a longsword, but d8 of damage doesn’t bother even a level 5 bard that much

[severe fox]

no they reduce damage by something rather then half

[hidden spindle]

They rolled low on their 20d6... maybe

[severe fox]

You can take a Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.

5x your monk level

[clear goblet]

This is why we love fantasy 🥀

[short brook]

So a 100

Barbs halve it

[clear goblet]

So I'm taking 20 damage from that

[severe fox]

so a level 20 monk can just almost utterly neg fall damage entirely

kinda cool

[short brook]

close enough tbh considering the barb is eating that shit on the face 😭

[glass granite]

20 MAX

[clear goblet]

Even better

[severe fox]

the average of 20d6 is like 71 damage

[glass granite]

Isn’t it 70?

[ripe nimbus]

70 yeah

[severe fox]

how is it 70?

[glass granite]

Average of d6 is 3.5, x20 is 70

[ripe nimbus]

every 2d6 adds 7 to the average

so 20d6 is 70 damage

[clear goblet]

Guys, it's a difference of 1 🥀

[hot marlin]

The vast, vast majority of the time, the monk will simply not take damage. The chances of 20d6 giving you a result above 100 are very, very low.

[severe fox]

yeah

[hidden spindle]

One's all it takes

[clear goblet]

For a level 20 monk? I beg to differ

[viral kraken]

that feeling when the world takes the Crusher feat, and keeps making people fall another 10 ft when they take any fall damage

[severe fox]

again they can reduce fall damage by 100 at level 20

[hidden spindle]

Crusher's Bounce feature activated

[hot marlin]

Oh yeah, the chance of getting a result at 100 or above is... 0.0056%

[viral kraken]

so you're saying there's a chance!

[ripe nimbus]

ah, a master of anydice-fu

[hot marlin]

One in eighteen thousand.

[glass granite]

If it ain’t 100% accurate it’s 50% accurate

[severe fox]

elemental strikes with crusher sounds devastating

since they have to roll or get pushed up to 20 feet

[hot marlin]

Wait no, I messed up my math

[glass granite]

Love elemental warrior monk

[severe fox]

2d6+ whatever your unarmed strikes do

[hot marlin]

It's closer to 0.003024%.

[buoyant oar]

On Falling. Xanathar's provides an optional rule that details the rate of Falling.

When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.

[hidden spindle]

That sounds about right. It's weird

[viral kraken]

wait so if the fall ends when i hit the ground, i just need a longbow and to hit the ground while i am still in the air to stop falling!

[hot marlin]

The total possible outcomes of 20d6 are... 3,656,158,440,062. Among those outcomes, only 110,597,298,630 are at 100 or higher. So yeah, it's... So abysmal it's almost impossible.

[glass granite]

It either works or it doesn’t. Two options, 50%. Don’t fact check that math

[severe fox]

almost impossible!

[ripe nimbus]

monks are immune to fall damage got it

[hot marlin]

As long as they have their reaction

[severe fox]

effectly

[ripe nimbus]

they’re falling, what are they gonna do, opportunity attack someone in the air on the way down?

[short brook]

What if you're boxing somebody in the air

[severe fox]

you know that one elden ring thing of falling and then hitting someone

[hot marlin]

They may have used their reaction for an opportunity attack the previous turn, then got pushed off a cliff

[ripe nimbus]

(yes i realize there are scenarios where they won’t have their reaction lemme get the funny line)

[ripe nimbus]

i didn’t play elden ring

[severe fox]

im gonna make another black hole

[hot marlin]

I think Dolly is referring to a specific weapon skill where the character jumps and butt slams someone. It's a silly one

[hidden spindle]

no no no...

[severe fox]

you cant subtle spell it either since i meta magic'd it

[hot marlin]

It is true that monks can completely weaponize their ability. If they fall on an enemy, they would take no damage, and the enemy would take half the damage and fall prone

[severe fox]

that makes it super true with 2024 removing a lot of creautres resistance/immuntity to BPS

[hot marlin]

It's a thing I do with my monk. I get grappled, I use misty step to get 30 feet above my grappler's head, fall on them, roll the damage, use my reaction

They end up prone, I'm out of the grapple, they took non-negligeable damage, I still have my action to deal more damage to a prone enemy.

[elder ore]

Hi everyone!

[vague meadow]

Found a bunch of fumphs POG

[glass granite]

I use my elemental warrior or ascendant dragon monks to just fly up, drop the grappled enemy, then fall on them and use my reaction

[wraith kelp]

nuggie!

[glass granite]

Venti!

[wraith kelp]

i need ur help with a character

[glass granite]

Goood morning afternoon evening!

[glass granite]

Go to #character-discussion then

[elder ore]

It’s been like 10 years since I played last so I don’t remember nothing lmao but I created my own character on DnD beyond

[hot marlin]

Still, it's only 3d6/2 damage dealt to an enemy. So it's not that good, the important part is that they fall prone

[elder ore]

Good morning! I live in Tennessee

[glass granite]

Evenin’ from Australia

[paper portal]

oh youre aussie too? never realized lol

[glass granite]

G’day

[hidden spindle]

I think the reduction actually takes place before the split. You can't split your fall damage if there's nothing to split

[hot marlin]

It doesn't. You take the damage first, then you reduce. Otherwise, what are you even reducing?

[vivid plinth]

So recently I was able to play on a high level oneshot a Lore Mastery Wizard (The one that was from UA back in 5e and people complained it was broken due to a Feature that lets you the type of save of one of your spells once per short/long rest) and I gotta say its really not that broken as people said

[severe fox]

what do you mean?

[ripe nimbus]

we aren’t in #dnd-rules so we can discuss things like “what does this represent diegetically” and i think diegetically the monk’s ability represents breaking your fall and making it softer. if you make your fall softer, then you also make the collision with the enemy softer, too, so they should take less damage.

[raven lark]

Guys, is casting simulacrum and then using that simulacrum to cast wish considered an okay combo in Tier 4 campaigns?

And conversely, is using wish to create a simulacrum immediately, without material components, generally considered okay?

Or is this usually house-ruled in some way?

[hot marlin]

That would be an acceptable houserule. However, RAW, that tactic works

[glass granite]

Or it could be plunge kicking the enemy and then slowing your fall right before you hit the floor

[severe fox]

raw yeah that just works

you also dont suffer any of the ill effect using wish after

[hot marlin]

The fact that it's named "slow fall" can mean the fall is actually slow, yes. It could also mean that it's slow in the monk's perception. At the end of the day, the name of a feature is rarely a relevant thing, as many descriptions actually go against the name

[hidden spindle]

any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them.

You only split it when you taking the fall damage

[hot marlin]

Yes. And then the monk uses slow fall

[raven lark]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about.

[hot marlin]

It's simple.
Step 1: Monk falls on enemy.
Step 2: Enemy rolls their dex save.
Step 3: Enemy fails
Step 4: Roll the damage
Step 5: Divide that damage
Step 6: Monk uses their reaction to reduce that damage

[hidden spindle]

You can take a Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.

Its not when you take fall damage but when you fall

[hot marlin]

Any damage you take. This means that there is damage, it was already rolled and applied.

You take fall damage when you fall, those are not two different things

[paper portal]

hi chat what are we arguing over now

[hidden spindle]

And you only split damage you taken

[paper portal]

i can provide my infinite dnd wisdom

[hot marlin]

Yes. You take the damage and then you reduce

[hidden spindle]

You reduce, then you split

[hot marlin]

You reduce at the very end of the process, it's the last thing

[glass granite]

Can monks slow fall before or after they split the damage when you fall on someone

[hot marlin]

You split, you apply, you reduce. In this order

[paper portal]

unspecified, order things happen in is decided by the creature whose turn it is

[ripe nimbus]

idk, i guess my feeling is, how are you making your fall hurt less without making it hurt the dude’s head less too?

[paper portal]

true but the RAW generally doesnt care for logic

[hot marlin]

It's magic.

[severe fox]

WRONG

[ripe nimbus]

its magic but u still gotta explain shit

[severe fox]

monk slow fall isnt magic

[glass granite]

Because the danger of falling is the sudden stop, hitting people on the head first doesn’t suddenly stop you.

[ripe nimbus]

well it kinda is. it isn’t Magical TM Game Term

[glass granite]

Well, not always

[paper portal]

not really, my explanation is "the rules say it works even if physics doesnt"

[severe fox]

slow fall and monk slow fall are two diffrent things

slow fall just removes fall damage

while one reduces

[glass granite]

You mean feather fall?

[severe fox]

oh right

[ripe nimbus]

physics doesn’t have to allow it, just the logic of what the ability represents

the ability is obviously physically nonsense

people can’t just slow their fall like that

[severe fox]

through again no where is slow fall called magical

[fierce sparrow]

I wonder what sage advice says

[paper portal]

but yeah its this so assuming youre jumping on them or whatever you can choose for them to take damage before you halve it which is W monk gameplay or wtv

[ripe nimbus]

but idc about that. i care about what makes sense to happen assuming people can.

[hot marlin]

There are two possibilities. The first is that it actually reduces the speed of the fall, the second is that the monk somehow hardens or lightens their body against the landing. Some sort of mystical "become the air" thing.

[tidal bough]

Slow fall is a monk feature

[glass granite]

I know, but they were referring to two slow falls

[fierce sparrow]

I think I see what u intend to do ur gonna keep falling on them

[ripe nimbus]

yeah i would probably allow that if my player insisted it was the second option

i just like players to think abt what’s actually happening

[glass granite]

I personally rule the same way incubus does, I know many that rule otherwise

[hot marlin]

And yes, it is magical. Not in the usual game sense of magical, but in narrative, it's magic. In narrative, monks are magic. Weird magic, but magic.

[severe fox]

they use focus not magic

[hot marlin]

Magic in the sense of "supernatural ability that goes against the normal rules of reality"

[glass granite]

Magic as in fantastical

[severe fox]

supernartual was removed in 3.5

[ripe nimbus]

look it’s not Magical TM Keyword Game Term but it’s obviously magic. it breaks physics, it’s something only superheros or wuxia protagonists do

[severe fox]

at least the wording of it was for whatever reason

[glass granite]

It’s not magic for the purposes of antimagic field, but it’s magic in the sense that it’s clearly fantasy

[paper portal]

idk why yall are trying to justify this from a physics perspective anyways as if dnd doesnt explicitly not work on real life physics

[fierce sparrow]

Very true

[hot marlin]

Absolutely nobody is trying to justify this from a physics perspective though

[severe fox]

makes another black hole

[ripe nimbus]

who’s trying to justify anything from a physics perspective?

[hidden spindle]

-# no no no...

[lyric viper]

Saying 'It's a fantastical ability' is not basing things on physics.

[fierce sparrow]

Did someone say two bags of holding

[hot marlin]

So I'm not sure who this "yall" is.

[severe fox]

two bags of holding isnt a black hole

[glass granite]

I attempt to…use the power of friendship

[severe fox]

and im sick of people saying it is

[hot marlin]

No, it's a rift into astral space.

A black hole kills you. Being in the astral plane is... Fine.

[ripe nimbus]

two bags of holding is “the DM messed up somewhere”

[severe fox]

i mean astral space will kill you somewhere

[fierce sparrow]

Ok well I've never had to do it so

[hidden spindle]

Astral Plane is immortality, in that you don't age

[paper portal]

yeah but before that they spent 10 minutes arguing over the logic of how monks would be able to half damage after dealing it to an enemy as if that needs to be justified somehow

[lyric viper]

Sphere of annihilation time.

[severe fox]

from aging*

[paper portal]

if the rules let it work then it does, its pretty simple

[severe fox]

you can still get stabbed

or woses

[glass granite]

Or punched. I like punch

[hot marlin]

Ten minutes? No. The question of how to justify it was, all in all, three messages all spent in the span of one minute

[ripe nimbus]

sed contra: peasant railgun

[fierce sparrow]

I think I have heard of this railgun

[hot marlin]

The part that was closer to ten minutes was the argument about whether or not, rules wise, the reduction happens before or after the damage split

[ripe nimbus]

i love bs fantasy shenanigans. just please explain to me what’s going on with them in diegetic terms.

[fierce sparrow]

Ok im a warlock and I just got my hands on an alien blaster

[glass granite]

Eldritch blastin’

[lyric viper]

Been to the peaks I see.

[paper portal]

yea thats what im saying you dont need a diegetic explanation if the rules say it be so

[severe fox]

i prefer to get my power from myself

[ripe nimbus]

maybe u don’t

[fierce sparrow]

I mean the rules are more like suggestions sometimes

[ripe nimbus]

peasant railguns don’t work. not because they’re broken, but because they make absolutely no diegetic sense.

and that’s just how i rule things generally

[severe fox]

black hole do through

[lyric viper]

I feel like there is a balance. The game makes rules for game convenience and balance. These rules aim for versimilitude and immersion. Rules can be very silly, because they cannot cover all bases.

Rules might say 'X' is possible, but x is very clearly absurd. It'd be perfectly valid for the DM to then say 'I don't think it should work like that in this situation'.

Rules might not say X is possible, and the DM might rule otherwise.

It's also nice to know how to imagine or flavour something, so knowing how one might try and explain it diegetically can be a lot more immersive.

[rough basalt]

Nah WotC agrees. They actually directly say arguing peasant railgun is breaking the player side of the social contract.

[fierce sparrow]

I feel you would enjoy me as a player I live for shenigans

[ripe nimbus]

rules not saying x is possible is different than the rules saying x is impossible fwiw

[lyric viper]

This is what the 'Rules are not phsyics, rules are not economy, rules are meant to be read in good faith' mean.

[hot marlin]

Moreover, the peasant railgun just doesn't work. Even if you set it up, at the end the last peasant throws the projectile for normal damage. So you bothered hundreds of people for what? 1d6?

[lyric viper]

A little bit and there is a difference between 'Rules say nothing on X' and 'Rules explicitly say not X'

[severe fox]

i absotutely loathe how going by RAW at least in 2014 you can wild shape and rage and still hold concention on a spell somehow

[paper portal]

they dont work because they dont work according to the rules lol

them making no diegetic sense is just another side effect of it being a nonsense idea

[fierce sparrow]

Social contract have they specified what word for word that is??

[hidden spindle]

What now?

Interesting...

[paper portal]

rageconc is peak and i WILL not be hearing otherwise

[rough basalt]

Social contract for players is not being a disruptive pain to the table in various ways cause "muh rule interpretation."

[severe fox]

very very weird wording from rage and 2014 wild shape

[fierce sparrow]

Im more of a panda bear that uses karate moves myself kind of guy

[ripe nimbus]

yeah, sure, the rules don’t let you accelerate a javelin to relativistic speeds at the end

they do let it accelerate to relativistic speeds in the middle though

[lyric viper]

Like RAW, elephants can leap 9ft into the air. 2014 cats could not jump at all.

You could terrifying your players with goomba stomping elephants because it's RAW, or go 'Nah, elephants are known to be very poor jumpers IRL, so the normal jumping rules don't apply here'. And allow cats to use dex (like in 2024!)

[hidden spindle]

I think its the act of transforming than being transformed

[ripe nimbus]

which is still diegetic nonsense. you just can’t pass something across 1000 people in 6s, even if you aren’t trying to argue for extra damage at the end.

[lyric viper]

And the game would probably prefer you to ignore the RAW there.

[fierce sparrow]

I was just talking about social contracts in dnd I am curious what they have to say like exactly and I completely agree dnd is a social convention for a lack of a better word and should be fun for everyone

[severe fox]

elehpants being able to jump 9ft is still so funny to me

[paper portal]

having said that finding RAW shenanigans and loopholes is really fun imo

[hidden spindle]

Elephants jumping is a total, just trust me Bro moment

[fierce sparrow]

I think warlocks could decide to make thier pact weapon a seige weapon or a giants weapon

[rough basalt]

The social contract in dnd is basically "I will not make the table experience worse for anyone including the dm for selfish reasons" broadly

[ripe nimbus]

rulings made from a diegetic simulationist angle are good imo because they encourage you, the player, to think about how to interact with the world and use your abilities like you’re actually in the world.

[severe fox]

since a player with a 20 in strength can only jump like is like 8

[fierce sparrow]

Could be funny

[paper portal]

elephants can jump irl btw ive seen it trust me its totally 100% real

[glass granite]

As someone who likes finding glitches in a video game, I understand the feeling.

[severe fox]

you can slay a dragon but jumping i very hard

[fierce sparrow]

Definitely agree

[paper portal]

you should join the evil optimizers with our RAW rulings and strong builds >:3c

[glass granite]

Nah, too much math

[severe fox]

how do i noclip out of dnd

[paper portal]

valid lol

[paper portal]

ok so for starters you take 3 levels of echo knight

[rough basalt]

Ways of breaking the social contract are slogging the game down arguing with the dm that physics are real and its why you should be able to peasant railgun and crap. Or Economies are real so infinite money hack breaks the world's economy.

[fierce sparrow]

Find a sphinx

[glass granite]

Like I’m not even that bad at math I’m just sick of it

[fierce sparrow]

Understandable

[rough basalt]

Or stuff where you kill harmless animals to activate class features

[paper portal]

tbh theres less maths involved in optimization than you'd think but also thats so valid

[glass granite]

Be the DM

[rough basalt]

Like keeping a bag of rats for temp hp as a fiendlock

[humble cairn]

I would add that rulings made for narrative reasons to further the story are also good behalf it encourages the players to collaborate to create a fun story experience for everyone.

[hidden spindle]

Jumping, go into Prone, and getting up to remove Prone before landing.

[paper portal]

bag of rats mentioned!!

[severe fox]

i only do that if im a dhampier

[lyric viper]

Oh I love finding silly little RAW things.

I think as a community 'RAW' gets held a little too much on a pedestal and people can hear entirely different things when reading it. An issue that comes up a lot in rule discussions where someone might be pointing out 'Look, RAW elephants can jump 9ft up into the air' and that be a perfectly true and neutral statement. But then people might respond with 'that's absurd, you shouldn't allow that', and... yes, but also not why the first person was pointing out the RAW.

Sometimes feels a little bit like trying to tell a joke and someone going 'But that's absurd'. Yes, yes it is. That is why it was being told.

[severe fox]

since they need blood

if i made a vegen dhampier would humanoids still be ok?

[rough basalt]

RAW can get goofy but the key is whether a RoC decision makes the game better with understanding that it's a one time thing or leads to your game going out of any semblance of control.

[glass granite]

Iirc dhampirs can crave blood, but they don’t need it

[lyric viper]

Even I do it sometimes when someone points out something RAW and the initial reaction is 'But that's so wrong, no.' but direct that at the messenger. Who was just pointing out the rules.

I do however sigh if a player/DM actually tries to exploit such. That feels bad.

[rough basalt]

Like one of my favorite goofy RAW scenarios is the Trident of Fish Command works on Polar Bears notably.

[severe fox]

polar bears

[ripe nimbus]

“physics is real and economies are real, which is exactly why your peasant railgun and infinite money hacks don’t work.”

[glass granite]

I remember some forbidden knowledge of you somehow being able to jump mid air somehow

[paper portal]

yeah id only ever use RAW stuff if my dm explicitly confirmed i can before the campaign (and i know for sure they understand how it works and why it may break the game lol)

[severe fox]

it works on crocs as well as

[paper portal]

wait until you guys hear how broken echo knight is RAW

[severe fox]

i cast distort value

[rough basalt]

Right

[paper portal]

its what we in the industry call a god exit

[severe fox]

and cave bears

and brown bears

[hot marlin]

That reminds me of that conversation where I pointed out that, RAW, petrified creatures still need to eat and drink and therefore die of dehydration.

[rough basalt]

Nah brown bears have climb speed

[hot marlin]

One person seemed to have somehow understood that I thought it was a good thing

[rough basalt]

Cave bear yeah tho

[severe fox]

in the new rules they have a swim speed a swell

wait no black bears

[rough basalt]

Trident of Fish Command Strikes again.

[paper portal]

one of my favourites is that the 2014 dmg rule for oversized weapons can be used by players too

[severe fox]

arent you made entireley out of stone through?

how are you gonna eat if your all stone

[fierce sparrow]

You dont

[hidden spindle]

Stones can get soaked but Nourishment... no idea

[ripe nimbus]

i think we gotta accept that there’s a reason there’s a DM and we aren’t all just playing CRPGs

[severe fox]

i feel like everything is stopped once you get turned into stone because of this line
The creature is immune to poison and disease, although a poison or disease already in its system is suspended, not neutralized.

[ripe nimbus]

and it’s precisely because we need a referee to say when things are nonsense and when they’re not

[lyric viper]

Oooooh, that's a whole bag of angry cats.

Because yes, true there are explicit rules even for if a PC gets hold of a oversized weapon. But it was also meant to be for making attacks for NPC statblocks DM side.

[hidden spindle]

Oh! A good berry! When they houserule stuffing an ally Unconscious face with'm

[severe fox]

they arent unconscious through

[paper portal]

yeah its absolutely not meant for players but it absolutely can be, and also its really cool

[severe fox]

only Incapacitated

[ripe nimbus]

i dont mind the oversized weapons rule

[paper portal]

i like it cus big hammer

[severe fox]

i dont like that small creatures have disadvantage when using heavy weapons in 2014

[hidden spindle]

Petrified for Incapacitated. But I meant Unconscious when they force feed downed allies a Goodberry

[severe fox]

one rule plenty tend to over look

[ripe nimbus]

id probably want wielding a too-large weapon to come with more severe penalties than just disadvantage to attack rolls but idk what

[glass granite]

I do like that change in 2024

[ripe nimbus]

small creatures should just be assumed to be using a smaller greatsword

[severe fox]

like wdym i cant wield a greatsword as a goblin

or a maul

[hot marlin]

Yes. But no immunity to exhaustion. Nothing that would tell you that their need for air, water and food is suspended too.

[ripe nimbus]

(diegetically) most of the extra damage of two handed weapons is in their leverage not their heft anyway

[lyric viper]

I mostly disliked how oversized weapons became almost this overused exploit. Because they're not entirely broken, they can occur, and there's rules for it, but the rules and weird and it was a little frustrating dealing with players who assumed this would be a normal thing they could rely on consistently.

[paper portal]

yeah its surprisingly easy to negate disadvantage

[severe fox]

mm i guess but again being utterly made of stone is seems like more then enough cause again its just the outer layer thats stone its everything

[hot marlin]

Of course. But RAW, lacking anything that would state otherwise, petrified creatures still need food and water

Obviously, it's just an oversight, something the person who wrote the condition didn't think about

[severe fox]

you cant eat or drink while in that state so i guess

[hidden spindle]

You can't can't eat or drink

[severe fox]

i have no mouth and i must scream

[hot marlin]

Indeed. Therefore, RAW, they die of dehydration, hunger and maybe even suffocation

[hidden spindle]

Unless you feed them

[ripe nimbus]

how, they don’t have stomachs

[hot marlin]

Well they do. But it's a stomach of stone

Provided the base creature has a stomach

[ripe nimbus]

sure which can’t digest food

[paper portal]

yeah thats why they die

[ripe nimbus]

sad isnt it

[hot marlin]

Like... The platypus doesn't have a stomach either, fun fact!

[ripe nimbus]

theyd probably die of suffocation first since their lungs don’t let them breathe

[hidden spindle]

Luckily. Its thirst you need to be careful of. They can survive longer without food but water, dehydration is bad

[ripe nimbus]

okay sure but platypi still digest

[hot marlin]

Of course, that's the RAW. In actual play, not only should you disregard it, you should probably add a line to the petrified condition that makes the creature immune to gaining more exhaustion levels. Just to be safe

[hidden spindle]

Its a slow death sentence

[hot marlin]

Oh yeah, RAW they also might be unable to rest, so they'd die of lack of rest

[severe fox]

i feel like being made of stone makes you immune to any of that but ok

[hot marlin]

You feel like it yeah. But RAW, no.

[ripe nimbus]

or you realize the secret wisdom that there is no difference between flavor text and rules text

[severe fox]

mainly cause that creature is considered inanimate

[hidden spindle]

Luckily for Petrified, your weight is tenfold...

What's your weight again? (Omitted in '24)

[ripe nimbus]

if the rules say they’re made of stone then by golly everything that follows from that is true

[severe fox]

does an inanimate creature need to eat drink sleep or breathe

[lyric viper]

This is one of our dilemmas with Rule forums and discussions, where the main point of that space is to discuss the RAW.
And sometimes the RAW answer isn't helpful. But the space doesn't really allow for homebrew and houserule suggestions, because that's another space.

[severe fox]

maybe

[ripe nimbus]

the explicit lines of “rules text” are just clarification. if the clarification is incomplete, then so be it; but that doesn’t change the part of the rules that says “you’re made of stone”

but ive gone on my “there is no such thing as flavor text” rant before

[severe fox]

the sillest thing in raw is revivfy not working

[paper portal]

a great one i heard recently is that somehow multiple flying snakes can all hold the same weapon, im unsure of if this is specific to flying snakes or how it actually works though

[severe fox]

it just wouldnt work

[lyric viper]

I still think that's a weird one because a corpse is an object yes, not a creature, but is still a 'recently dead creature'.

[severe fox]

why is a corpse an object is my question

[hidden spindle]

It is what it is

[paper portal]

yeah but the exact wording is "You touch a creature that has died within the last minute." at least for 2014 which a corpse is not

[ripe nimbus]

i mean that makes sense to me.

[limber apex]

if a corpse is an object, you can use Creation and Fabricate to create corpses

[hot marlin]

I think a corpse is an object, but the dead creature is not the corpse.

[ripe nimbus]

the difference between a corpse and a person is that a person is animate and a corpse is inanimate, but was formerly animate

[severe fox]

a dead creature is a corpse

[ripe nimbus]

an inanimate thing is an object

i do agree reading revivify that RAW it looks like revivify just doesn’t work tho lol

[paper portal]

a dead corpse is an inanimate creature object (yes im just saying words)

[hot marlin]

More accurately, I think you have the corpse there. And, in a Schrodinger-like manner, it's, depending on your purposes, either the corpse therefore an object, or a dead creature

[hidden spindle]

Corpse are bags of chemicals that starting to decompose into the atoms they're composed of... Physics~

Or science

[paper portal]

but have you considered that RAW echos are neither objects nor creatures and therefore cannot be targeted by attacks

[limber apex]

we need a full page in Ravenloft to explain corpses

[ripe nimbus]

wait no i just reviewed the definition of creature

it’s “any being in the game”…

[lyric viper]

See... I think it still counts? Because yeah the RAW issue would be this issue of is it A: Object or B: Creature and folk read the spell as 'B'. Because it says 'A creature'.

But the full thing of 'A creature that has died within the last minute' is the corpse. The corpse is an object, and 'a creature that has died within the last minute'.

[ripe nimbus]

which, uh, a corpse is certainly a being

[limber apex]

that mean nothing

[severe fox]

it has a hit point which means it can be hit

[ripe nimbus]

so is a chair though

[limber apex]

is it?

[paper portal]

iirc it needs to have a statblock to be a creature but that may be 2014 specific

[ripe nimbus]

yes? a being is just something that exists

[paper portal]

hit points mean it was intended to be able to hit, doesnt mean you can

[ripe nimbus]

2024 just says “Any being in the game is a creature.”

[severe fox]

if it has hit points it cna be hit in dnd

[ripe nimbus]

RAW it looks like object is now a proper subset of creature

[lyric viper]

And everyone knows the RAI, which is 'It's meant to work', so it's one of those little 'What is the point of this discussion?' ones. Mostly seems to be pointing out the weird quirks of natural language.

[paper portal]

attacks target creatures or objects

or locations but an echo definitely isnt that

[glass granite]

If it has hit points it can die if it is hit, not that it can be hit

[hidden spindle]

The biggest one is 'cast' for past, present, future tense

[paper portal]

ty for phrasing it better than me :3

[severe fox]

its a summon then i guess

[hot marlin]

That gets especially silly with the sleep spell! Since it affects creatures in ascending order of hit points, if any being is a creature, the spell will just put to sleep the many microbes and mites that live on the skin of your targets

(Of course disregard)

[lyric viper]

I remember headache inducing discussions over damage dealt/taken/received

[glass granite]

Anywho folks the Nugget is off, it’s wayyy too late for this. G’night

[paper portal]

summons are creatures (or in 2024 theyre just spells)

[paper portal]

gn!! sleep well

[ripe nimbus]

sleep doesn’t work that way in 24 now

[severe fox]

At 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself sounds a lot like a summon

[hot marlin]

Yeah true

[ripe nimbus]

it’ll affect pieces of dirt, even. well those can’t sleep, but neither can microbes

[hidden spindle]

Taking no damage is not damage. But taking 0 damage is damage.

[paper portal]

do we have confirmation that microbes exist?

[paper portal]

sounds like a summon doesnt mean it is

[hot marlin]

Diseases exist.

[severe fox]

in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed

[paper portal]

yep thats true

[severe fox]

so its an object

[ripe nimbus]

cmon

[paper portal]

no cus it isnt inanimate

[hidden spindle]

Bag of germs

[paper portal]

its intended to be an object though yeah

[severe fox]

its a gray image of you that last until it is broken

[ripe nimbus]

it seems inanimate to me…?

[hot marlin]

And then there's the question: Is a tree a creature? A perfectly normal oak.

[severe fox]

same here

[ripe nimbus]

trees aren’t objects in 2024 RAW!

[severe fox]

trees are trees

[ripe nimbus]

and they are definitely creatures, because even atoms are in 2024 RAW

[paper portal]

yeah 2024 RAW very quickly devolves into nonsense which is part of why i like it less ngl

[hidden spindle]

It is a living organism but is it a creature

[severe fox]

i mean an awakened tree is a thing

druids also have speak with plants

[hot marlin]

I'm glad I said "a perfectly normal" one

[severe fox]

i still wonder why speak with plants is a 3rd level spell

[hot marlin]

Where would it be without this precision?

[hidden spindle]

Info gathering is huge

[severe fox]

yeah but an animal can.. move around

[ripe nimbus]

“any being.” trees exist.

[lyric viper]

Plants, creatures and hazardous terrain.

[hidden spindle]

I agree with you... just...

-# I need a stat block...

[lyric viper]

The new 'mineral, animal vegetable, except it's trying to figure out where green slimes go.

[paper portal]

yeah if you wanna play the game RAW id advise sticking to 2014 (although that needs a whole host of bans because of all the broken stuff lol but its an improvement on how wishy washy 2024 can be)

[severe fox]

lucky in 2014 was fun

[hidden spindle]

What kind of ban?

[severe fox]

super advantage off disadvantage

[sleek cloud]

Hot take

[hidden spindle]

We talking top 3 bans? Houserules?

[severe fox]

slivery barbs my lucky feat

[paper portal]

the main one is of course "no infinities" which covers most stuff lol but also stuff like subclass switching and other various really broken things

[severe fox]

so i can roll 4 dice instead

[paper portal]

conjuration wizard, echo knight

[severe fox]

i mean chrono wizard is still pretty stupid as well

[paper portal]

in terms of RAW its nowhere near conjuration

[severe fox]

no clue why they would ban conju over chrno

[lyric viper]

Y'know I just assumed I knew how lucky worked (reroll), and completely missed super disadvantage tricks. When I brought it up at the table my player was like 'Oh, I knew, but I also knew what you assumed and was fine with that.'

[hot marlin]

I'm still on the fence on 2014/2024. There have been improvements, mostly to monsters and some classes, but all in all, I find the rules weaker, softer, the spells generally worse...

[severe fox]

being able to hold concentraion on two spells makes its generally pretty good

[paper portal]

yeah without tech its 100% the best sub in the game but theres a lot of really broken stuff RAW

[ripe nimbus]

i dm the game as a referee ruling things that make sense and don’t really care to lawyer what RAW says this precisely

[severe fox]

thats not even a tech thats a chrono feature

[paper portal]

thats why i said without tech

[severe fox]

it also has a slightly stronger version of portent

[paper portal]

i know

[sleek cloud]

Party that’s all battlerager barbarians.

[hidden spindle]

Reminds me of the time a table I played with didn't want to go into '24 rules, they didn't know '14 rules well to begin with

[paper portal]

yeah the rules are very abusable nonsense surprisingly often

[hidden spindle]

There was a backseat DM who acknowledged their backseat behavior and continued to backseat

[ripe nimbus]

also “flavor text is part of the rules too” is still a great rule of thumb to use

[paper portal]

iirc theres also nothing that stops you from taking invos more than once in 2014 so you can just stack 9 repelling blasts and send someone into space

[sleek cloud]

Party where each person takes the worst possible subclass/spells of their class, and they’re called “The Last Resort”

[ripe nimbus]

don’t know what the consequences of something will be? look at the flavor text. “RAW” readings that entirely ignore the flavor text are only using half the rules.

[severe fox]

i dont think any person in dnd goes by RAW strictly

[paper portal]

360 feet of knockback, or 640 if you take echo knight levels

[hot marlin]

You keep saying that thing about the flavor text but... When have people completely disregarded the flavor text? In fact, I would go as far as to say that there is no such thing as flavor text in D&D rules, not in features, not in spells.

[paper portal]

some people do but its only very silly games that get god exited within a single session

[ripe nimbus]

isn’t there? it says “two invocations,” at level 2, and if you take the same invocation twice you’re still just taking one invocation, for example

[ripe nimbus]

i agree, ive said as much

but i have had arguments over this in #dnd-rules

[still plover]

Like that's hard! /hj

[ripe nimbus]

people insisting that there’s a strict delineation between rules text and flavor text and when figuring out what a spell or similar does you only look at the rules text

[paper portal]

yeah u might be right ngl

[hidden spindle]

The same folks looking in flavor text if a feature is 'Magical'

[lyric viper]

Is this where the is something like an item or spell description, that then people will intepret mechanically (or not)?

[hidden spindle]

Pretty much yeah

[lyric viper]

Usually the first line if any that isn't really laying out mechanics so much as a one sentence summary/description.

I know I've seen discussions sparked by some of these, but can't recall any specifically.

[hidden spindle]

Like '14 Burning Hands touching thumbs

[limber apex]

tbf a lot of magical effects don’t contain that word in the description

[hidden spindle]

Then they aren't magical

[severe fox]

yup

dnd outlines a way to find out of a thing is magical or not

[limber apex]

Beholder flight is an effect granted by the weave

[severe fox]

like a paladins divine smite in 2014 isnt stated to be magical

but its fueled by a spellslot

[hidden spindle]

Its an Aberration. Its alien in nature

[severe fox]

yea

[limber apex]

which means that it should be shut down in an anti-magic field, so 2 Beholders is very detrimental to their own ability to function

[severe fox]

like the mind flayers

its flight isnt granted by the weave

it can just do that

[sleek cloud]

so you're saying its because they beweave in themselves

[hidden spindle]

Good one

[severe fox]

very

[atomic kayak]

DnD makes a distinction (generally speaking) between something being narratively magical and something being mechanically magical.

Its a square rectangle situation. You can be narratively magical without being mechanically magical.

In terms of game mechanics, when it comes to something being magical it only cares about mechanical magic

[severe fox]

i still think its funny that mind flayers can plane shift and you have no way of stopping them with nothing less the an anti magic field

[limber apex]

The Weave is an essential element of the universe, running through everything in unseen threads. Some creatures, objects, and locations have deep, intrinsic ties to the Weave and can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder’s flight, a vampire’s charming gaze, a dragon’s breath weapon, and so forth). Creatures with the necessary talent and skill can also manipulate the Weave to perform magic by casting spells.

[severe fox]

weird

[hidden spindle]

So they did beweave in themselves

[severe fox]

through 1 beholder would never work with another

there too paranoid

[still plover]

Keep on thinking that, Dolly.

[limber apex]

lower level beholders like Spectators don’t care iirc

[severe fox]

Is it a magic item?
Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
Is it a spell attack?
Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
Does its description say it’s magical?
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask ourselves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears nowhere in its description. Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA224

[limber apex]

this also implies dragon breath should be considered a magical effect

[severe fox]

it should be but it isnt

[severe fox]

those are called beholder kin

[limber apex]

the creature type still says Aberration (Beholder)

[severe fox]

yeah but itself is no beholder

also the way other beholders is... weird

are made i mean

[atomic kayak]

It doesn't imply that, it explicitly says the opposite

[still plover]

True beholders are majestic, powerful and intelligent creatures and should never be assumed to follow what someone's silly book says. They'll do what they want, when they want, why they want.

[atomic kayak]

As I mentioned before, it says this

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type.

[limber apex]

well, that’s debatable, this Sage Advice goes directly against lore information, afaik, Sage Advice is very reliant on RAW

[atomic kayak]

Narrative magic =/= mechanical magic inherently

[severe fox]

Lore Vs mechanics a classic

[limber apex]

they’re literally using the weave for the dragon’s breath, I would say that’s the clearest definition of mechanical magic

[rough basalt]

Yeah a Dragons existence is magical but the Breath itself is part of their biology iirc

[severe fox]

thats not in every world through

[limber apex]

their existence otherwise is naturally magical, but that’s not the same as being directly Weave-related

[sleek cloud]

dragons breath, but its just them exhaling a sigh because the bard's hitting on them.

[atomic kayak]

Except its not, the SAC is very explicit about it

Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask ourselves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears nowhere in its description. Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings.

[severe fox]

remember lore is not always the truth

[atomic kayak]

Mechanical magic is its own category

[severe fox]

bingo

[scenic zinc]

Mechanics =/= narrative

[atomic kayak]

(as I have been saying)

[hot marlin]

Or more accurately: Mechanics are part of the narrative, but not all narrative is mechanic. All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares

[atomic kayak]

Yea lol

it always comes back to squares and rectangles...

[limber apex]

I know, but I’m saying that definition is lacking, SAC measures stuff in terms of RAW

[scenic zinc]

You can derive a narrative from mechanics, but deriving mechanics from narrative will break the system.

[severe fox]

bingoooo

[severe fox]

yeah because if you go by using pure narrative as raw anti magic field would be the strongest thing in the game

maybe even dispell magic

[atomic kayak]

How is it lacking? Its telling you exactly how it works in terms of being mechanically magical RAW. It lays it all out explicitly.

[scenic zinc]

Oops the dragon is gone since you cast dispel magic on it!

[stark arch]

qeustion how does Mirror Image actualy work? it says i makes 3 copys of me. do they all get the same ac? and how does it work when i need to make a saving throw? do they get the damage ? or real me ?

[severe fox]

since "dead magic" can just remove magic

[limber apex]

I’m not saying we should use pure narrative for mechanics, but the 2024 rules for magical mechanics make stuff like Anti-Magic fields and Counterspells useless 99% of the time

[severe fox]

dispell magic is dead magic

[scenic zinc]

I hate to say it... but read the spell.

It literally tells you.

[limber apex]

Dispel Magic is not Dead Magic though

Dispel just unravels the weave, doesn’t destroy it

[stark arch]

"Each time a creature hits you with an attack roll during the spell’s duration," so this does nothing with saving throws?

[severe fox]

ha no

[delicate owl]

Does it say it does?

[atomic kayak]

Not anything to do with 2024, worked the same for 2014.

But thats also. Simply not true. Those two things still do a ton often. Especially antimagic field. There are a lot of magical effects that are not spells.

[severe fox]

can you like post wher eit says that?

[stark arch]

no but its confusing since it makes 3 copys of me..

[severe fox]

how would that stop say a fire ball

[limber apex]

Dispel Magic. Dispel magic unwinds and prematurely ends magic, unraveling whatever construct of the Weave was put in place.

[stark arch]

not all spells are fire ball

[severe fox]

lightning bolt?

[stark arch]

toll the dead ?

[sleek cloud]

hypnotic pattern

[limber apex]

Dead Magic. In rare areas of dead magic, the Weave is absent. Not only do spells and magic items cease to function, but even the supernatural abilities of creatures that are innately tied to the Weave might fail as the knot of the Weave they carry with them unravels.

[atomic kayak]

it makes 3 illusory duplicates, it doesn't make "copies"

[severe fox]

thats a wisdom save

[stark arch]

stil would look like copys from the outside ?

[sleek cloud]

you know,i just wanna say. i love 2024 chromatic orb.

[severe fox]

that doesn't sound very mechanical

[stark arch]

duplications

[stuck crystal]

hey so isnt lego movie technically a lovecraftian horror

[limber apex]

you said Dispel makes a Dead Magic Zone, which is a narrative statement

[severe fox]

a creature with certain types of senses can see through it

[stuck crystal]

imagine that as a adventure concept

[severe fox]

my bad i just mean in general anti magic field shouldnt be able to stop a dragons breathe

[stark arch]

thats up to the dm to spawn those

[severe fox]

yeah but its not dups its illusions

[stark arch]

how high is the chanche those creatures also have saving throw abilitys ?

[delicate owl]

Illusions are not actually you

[severe fox]

yeah

a duplacate would be the clone spell or simi

[limber apex]

Antimagic fields also don’t create a Dead Magic Zone, it just stretches the weave to make magical effects very difficult to create

[severe fox]

yeah but "magic" effects cant enter the zone

nor can anybody cast magic inside

An aura of antimagic surrounds you in 10-foot Emanation. No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.

[stark arch]

dispel magic worhty spell to invest into ?

[lavish flame]

depends on the campaign, but its always nice to have in ur toolbelt

[severe fox]

so if a dragon tried to breathe weapon you it just wouldnt effect you

or you could use a even worse case of this

[limber apex]

yeah, the weave needs to be intact throughout the effect’s projectile, but Dead Magic turns off all magical effects that rely on the weave

Antimagic Fields do not turn off all magic

[severe fox]

Arcane wards protect you against magic for the duration. You have Advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects. Additionally, if you succeed on a saving throw against a spell or magical effect and would normally take half as much damage, you instead take no damage.

[limber apex]

only spells, magical items, etc.

[severe fox]

it says "magical effect"

that extends to anything magical

[atomic kayak]

antimagic field effects anything that is mechanically magical yes

[limber apex]

Dragon’s Breath works in an Anti-Magic Field, but not in a Dead Magic Zone

[severe fox]

your logic makes no sense

how is something magical and non magical

[limber apex]

it’s magical but doesn’t require the weave to be wound up correctly I guess

idk, go ask the books

[severe fox]

exactly

[atomic kayak]

We are directly referring to the rules

[lavish flame]

Eh, kinda. This is how the 5.5 PHB defines "magical effect" as a term

Magical Effect
An effect is magical if it is created by a spell, a magic item, or a phenomenon that a rule labels as magical.

[severe fox]

pheonmenon that a rule labels as magical is right there man

[paper portal]

phenomena doo doo do do do

[severe fox]

so if a dragons breathe weapon was labeled as magical by the rules AMF would effect it

same thing with Elminster's Elusion

[limber apex]

the current ruling on what’s magical is what makes no sense, that’s what I’m trying to point out

some things work in antimagic but not dead magic

[severe fox]

if it says its magical in the text that its magical if it doesnt its not

[atomic kayak]

it makes plenty of sense. Its very explicit

[severe fox]

a great example of this is the mind flayers mind blast ability from 2014 to 2024

[atomic kayak]

Theres a difference between you thinking more things should be considered mechanically magical and the rule not making sense

[lavish flame]

yeah

[limber apex]

and then if you read DMG, it says something completely different

[atomic kayak]

It doesn't

[limber apex]

A dead magic zone is an area where the fabric of magic is torn. The effect is the same as the Antimagic Field spell, except that it is permanent and typically covers an area no more than 300 feet in diameter.

[severe fox]

Mind Blast (Recharge 5–6). The mind flayer magically emits psychic energy in a 60-foot cone. Each creature in that area must succeed on a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw or take 22 (4d8 + 4) psychic damage and be stunned for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Mind Blast (Recharge 5–6). Intelligence Saving Throw: DC 15, each creature in a 60-foot Cone. Failure: 31 (6d8 + 4) Psychic damage, and the target has the Stunned condition until the end of the mind flayer’s next turn. Success: Half damage only.

[limber apex]

so does it affect creature abilities or not?

[atomic kayak]

The effect is the same as the Antimagic Field spell,

[severe fox]

so i was RIGHT

[lavish flame]

if the creature's ability is magical, then yes

[atomic kayak]

Antimagic field affects a lot of abilities, because a lot of abilities are mechanically magical

[limber apex]

there are different rules for the same thing in different books

[atomic kayak]

They literally aren't different rulings. They are in accordance with one another

[limber apex]

once it says Dead Magic isn’t antimagic

[severe fox]

but it is

[limber apex]

and then it says that they’re the same

[limber apex]

it didn’t say it stops magical effects

it said that it stops effects that are reliant on the weave

[atomic kayak]

It literally doesn't

[limber apex]

right after saying dragon breath is reliant on the weave

[severe fox]

omg

the amount of hoops you gotta jump through to come to this conclusion

[limber apex]

and then SAC says dragon breath isn’t magical and doesn’t get affected by antimagic

so far no contradiction

[limber apex]

this is where the contradiction happens

[atomic kayak]

An aura of antimagic surrounds you in a 10-foot Emanation. No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can't target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don't work inside the aura or on anything inside it.

Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can't extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.

Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration.

Dispel Magic has no effect on the aura, and the auras created by different Antimagic Field spells don't nullify each other.

[atomic kayak]

There literally is no contradiction

[severe fox]

again its lore vs mechanics

[lavish flame]

I'm not really certain where mentions of the Weave are coming from

[atomic kayak]

They don't exist

[severe fox]

most likely the dmg or an adventuering guide

[lavish flame]

5.5 rules make no mention of it

[limber apex]

but even supernatural abilities that are innately tied to the weave

[atomic kayak]

And even if they did: they still wouldn't have any contradictions

[severe fox]

where are you getting this

[limber apex]

I think it’s Netheril or Faerun

and the other one is DMG

[severe fox]

which book

[lavish flame]

the FR books have some stuff about the Weave, but the 5.5 core rules don't even have a sidebar mentioning it

[limber apex]

new Netheril or Faerun

vs. new DMG

[atomic kayak]

And again, even still: None of what you have posted has any contradictions mechanically

[severe fox]

you mean adventuers of Faerun?

[limber apex]

honestly, I got lost, I’m using DDB search so I have no idea which book I’m in

[severe fox]

bro 😭

[lavish flame]

Heroes of Faerun: Chapter 5: Magic of Faerun: The Weave

[severe fox]

thats against the rules

[raven fox]

Oh, kay. Sorry then

[lavish flame]

This is the relevant sidebar:

Weave-Affecting Magic
The rules for spells and spellcasting found in the Player’s Handbook are true in Faerûn, but some spells and magical effects might interact in unique ways with the Weave.
Antimagic. The Antimagic Field spell unravels magic woven from the Weave. While an otherwise-permanent effect is within an area of antimagic, the knots of the Weave untie, but the threads retie themselves once the magic is outside the antimagic effect.
Dead Magic. In areas of dead magic, the Weave is absent. Not only do spells and magic items cease to function, but even the supernatural abilities of creatures that are innately tied to the Weave might fail as the knot of the Weave they carry with them unravels.

[atomic kayak]

Yea thats... not contradictory.

[severe fox]

it says might

[atomic kayak]

Thats exactly in line with the definition of dead magic from the DMG

Because some supernatural abilities of creatures are, as stated, mechanically magical. While others are not

[lavish flame]

There's also a bit on Antimagic which I missed. I edited it in

[limber apex]

Heroes of Faerun

[severe fox]

i think whats got you mixxed up is your using text from 2014 as well as 2024

i cant find that "beholders flight" being apart of the weave thing anywhere in 2014

[limber apex]

I was talking 2024

[lavish flame]

i dont think we've mentioned any 2014 books yet

[limber apex]

it’s Heroes of Faerun’s Weave section

[severe fox]

ok but where did you get that info that the weave is also in dragons breathes and beholders flight and such

[limber apex]

Sword Coast Adventures

[lavish flame]

oh yeesh why are we mentioning the SCAG

[limber apex]

both Heroes of Faerun and SCAG for 2024 and 2014

it exists in both

[severe fox]

yeah but i still cant any support evidance that a anti magic field would effect a beholders flight

[limber apex]

I didn’t say it did, I said it’s weird it didn’t when Dead Magic Zone is both Antimagic in one place and does turn off Beholder flight in another place

[dark pewter]

Lore supports the mechanics, not defines them; if a mechanical feature doesn't explicitly say it's magical in effect, then it's up to the DM if there's any uncertainty

[severe fox]

that

[limber apex]

so if you want to resolve the conflict, it necessitates an errata or antimagic affects way more

[lavish flame]

i do think that a Beholder flying is basically just something that type of being can do and not really a Beholder performing magic

[severe fox]

yeah

[limber apex]

I’m saying there’s a contradiction on what counts as magical

in the books themselves

[severe fox]

how?

[limber apex]

Dead Magic Zone both affects beholders and dragons and doesn’t

[severe fox]

its two diffrent rule sets is why

and again a dead magic zone is just anti magic field

it even said in the example shown it might effect some creatures powers not all of them

[limber apex]

yes, but it mentions some effects that it talks about 1 paragraph above

[lavish flame]

I gotta be honest I do think this is very clear with the Rules Glossary and SAC. There's some definitions which arbitrate this and if those somehow fail, there's always the checklist that the SAC provides

[dark pewter]

Where does it say a Dead Magic Zone affects beholder flight? I'm not able to find it

[limber apex]

and then SAC says it doesn’t work like that for antimagic

[severe fox]

The Weave is an essential element of the universe, running through everything in unseen threads. Some creatures, objects, and locations have deep, intrinsic ties to the Weave and can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder’s flight, a vampire’s charming gaze, a dragon’s breath weapon, and so forth). Creatures with the necessary talent and skill can also manipulate the Weave to perform magic by casting spells.

hes talking about this mainly

which just seems like flavor text

[limber apex]

Heroes of Faerun, Chapter 5: The Weave: Spells that affect the weave

[lavish flame]

The Weave is the raw material from which the tapestry of magic is woven—an essential element of the universe that flows through all things. Some creatures, objects, and locations have especially deep connections to the Weave. Such creatures can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder’s flight, a vampire’s charming gaze, a dragon’s breath weapon, and so forth), while individuals with the necessary talent and skill can cast spells by manipulating the Weave. The Weave isn’t normally visible or detectable, except through the use of spells.
The opening paragraph of chapter 5 if Heroes of Faerun

[atomic kayak]

There is no contradiction

[severe fox]

i dont see it either

[dark pewter]

Sure, but this doesn't say that a beholder's flight is magical. It says that beholders can fly naturally because of a deep tie to the Weave. Beholders are born with great potential because of that connection, but it doesn't strictly make what they do magical

[severe fox]

thats what we have been trying to say

[atomic kayak]

All that is happening is lemon is conflating narrative and mechanical magic

[lavish flame]

To me, a Dragon having a natural connection to the weave and therefore being able to do Breath Weapons makes sense and it similarly makes sense to me that these effects arent, themselves, magical

[limber apex]

I didn’t argue that it’s magical, I argued that it gets shut down by Dead Magic

Dead Magic. In rare areas of dead magic, the Weave is absent. Not only do spells and magic items cease to function, but even the supernatural abilities of creatures that are innately tied to the Weave might fail as the knot of the Weave they carry with them unravels.

[dark pewter]

Again, that passage says might

[atomic kayak]

It doesnt

[severe fox]

might fail

[dark pewter]

Which again, leaves it up to the DM

[atomic kayak]

The "might" is perfectly in line with the DMG definition of dead magic

[severe fox]

which means if its not effect by an anti magic field it works fine

[limber apex]

DMG just says it’s antimagic

[atomic kayak]

Because, again

[severe fox]

cause it IS

[limber apex]

this says it’s explicitly not antimagic

[atomic kayak]

Again, no contradiction

[dark pewter]

A beholder's flight is not mechanically a magical effect, so it doesn't explicitly get shut down by a Dead Magic Zone

[atomic kayak]

It very literally does not say that

[limber apex]

except the paragraph before the Dead Magic paragraph mentions it as an effect that uses the weave and then says it might shut down those effects

that it just mentioned

[atomic kayak]

Yes. Might.

[atomic kayak]

It says might because of this ^

[dark pewter]

Once again, if it is not explicitly clear, it's up to the DM.

The passage leaves the effects up to interpretation for that reason

[limber apex]

why talk about Dragon Breath 1 paragraph before “might shut down” and NOT mean it to include that?

[atomic kayak]

You frankly don't even need to get into the ask your DM territory

[severe fox]

its pretty easy to cut open an ability and find out what is and isnt magic

[lavish flame]

There is additionally a section on Wild and Dead Magic Zones that also says:

The rules for dead magic and wild magic zones are in chapter 3 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
So like, these aren't changes or additions to rules. This is flavor text and not rulestext