dnd-discussion

[severe rampart]

Okay but would they hold my hand and play with my hair

[tall forge]

Duh, if they want to be with you that bad ofc

[severe rampart]

I'm sold

this reminds me of the question, if you find out that your lover of like 20 years was a serial killer before you knew them, but they changed their ways for you, would you stay with them?

like you had no idea they were like that before they met you, and you've already been together for 20 years

[rugged hawk]

I'd question their killing methods, first. As long as it's painless, sure.

[tall forge]

Depends on the targets

[severe rampart]

We'll say some bad some good

[tall forge]

Like, they stomping babies? Prob gonna have to pass

[severe rampart]

Adults

[dusty glade]

isn't that basically Natural Born Killers? lol

[tall forge]

No idea what that is

[dusty glade]

if she repented by being a vigilante....

[dusty glade]

a movie abt two pyscho lovers

[dusty glade]

if its just bad guys....

[tall forge]

Random? Cause ehhhh maybe

[severe rampart]

no, like, they stopped murdering after meeting you

[dusty glade]

depends

[severe rampart]

really gets you questioning...

[empty thicket]

imagine going through a kitchen in some mission and finding the knife of the chef (A dagger +5).
You all would steal it or not?

[dusty glade]

i hv a question for y'all too. if you lost your spouse, but killing a patheon would bring them back no strings attached. Would you do it?

[severe rampart]

Okay Kratos

[tall forge]

Depends… am i a rogue?

[severe rampart]

No.

[urban night]

yo, if a PC grapples an enemy using an arm, can they use the free arm to attack the grappled enemy?

[dusty glade]

yes, i love collecting

[empty thicket]

Lets say yes. You are willing to risk to steal Such powerfull knife from a Chef like that?

[tall forge]

Yep

[severe rampart]

That Chef is Gordon Ramsey, and they are a level 20 College of Valor

[tall forge]

Whats dnd without a little drama

[dusty glade]

if a pc has no arms, but has weapons. are they armed or unarmed?

[empty thicket]

Okey, welp. New nemesis added

[severe rampart]

Their vicious mockery deals 10d6 damage

[urban night]

i don't know but they sure are threatening

[tall forge]

You can infact make an attack yea

[dusty glade]

but only if theyre a bad guy, if its a good guy. i wouldn't. id rather get dinner by the instead

[empty thicket]

He is only a chef, work for either good and bad, no moral.
You wont never be able to pay a dinner from him.

[tall forge]

Yknow what?

I steal the knife and in its place, i put a spork

[radiant night]

Roll initiative

[empty thicket]

To that point of high culinary would be, he in fact even have more magic items he use for cook.
Like his personal bag of holding full of chests of preservation with food.

[dusty glade]

i retract my statement.i wouldnt steal then

i would however rob other thieves, for the love of the game.

[empty thicket]

Seasonings and special meats arent easy to get bud

[severe rampart]

Reminds me of the very eccentric plate with a pirate on it that a whole family was fighting over

[dusty glade]

nah, just in general.... i would absolutely rob pirates for collecting stuff

[empty thicket]

Now that im thinking about it, a Chef Npc that give you side missions of getting X stuff in your principal missions.... would be nice

So my players have lil side quests for getting a little bit of money

[dusty glade]

yeah

like getting a rare ingredient

[empty thicket]

or killing some monster//animal with X weapon or magic.
or getting X tool
etc. etc.

[dense nacelle]

I love exploiting boss weaknesses

[tender pier]

Wait i don't think i mentioned this would take place IRL
did i mention that?

[empty thicket]

i love dealing tons of damage in my turns

[tall forge]

I love being a menace

[dense nacelle]

I was playing DnD yesterday and noticed a boss had only line of sight spells and melee attacks, so I forced it to be blinded on a saving throw it would need a Nat 20 to beat, and I would always give it disadvantage

[tall forge]

So youre asking what we would do with controlling undead irl?

Cause the answer is… not much for me

Maybe if i had an invisible ghost i could do something cool

[tender pier]

Well yeah, IRL though you could try it in a fictional setting of your choice
though i only expected IRL scenarios from people

[humble cairn]

Oh no! Please take care of yourself!

[tall forge]

Theres not that much to do with your average zombie

[humble cairn]

Turn a crank forever to produce electricity.

[tall forge]

I mean, true
But you gotta have space for that

And if you get found out, youre goin to zombo jail

[humble cairn]

Clever, but your DM allows you to look at statblocks?

[tall forge]

Plus you need at least 25 corpses

To power a house

[humble cairn]

Still blocking line of sight is generally a pretty good way to counter a caster. We fought a lich and I was realy nervous about stuff like Counterspell and PWK so I asked the warlock to use Jallarzi's Storm of Radiance (blinds with no saving throw) while the rest of us tried to find ways to keep it from just walking out of the rather small radius.

[tall forge]

Darkness or silence is, as always, a liches worst nightmare

[robust condor]

cheap counterspells indeed, we two rounded a mage boss fight using blinding

[worn lagoon]

Skill issue, they should've been sorcerers with eldritch adept instead of liches

Being a lich is skill issue in general, you couldn't find a less agonizing way to become immortal?

[tall forge]

The arch lich walks into the room

An archlich can infact be any type of spell caster

[severe rampart]

Cough-

[atomic kayak]

Line of sight and line of effect- easiest ways to address 99% of what most casters can do (on both ends of the table)

[tall forge]

Line of effect is a little harder but yeah

[tender pier]

I thought i included that your summons get stronger overtime?
also they should be autonomous but loyal and intelligent (well basic training like regular soldiers)

[tall forge]

I mean, what would i do with an army

Im not exactly looking to become a dictator lmao

[halcyon bison]

World domination >:3

[glad arch]

Hire them out to do manual labor and take their income

[tall forge]

Thats doable with a living army

But an undead army breaks so many OSHA regulations

[burnt valley]

i'd have skeletons do daily chores then, potentially make my own cleaning business using them

[tall forge]

For one, the sanitation hazard

[glad arch]

Whats a couple broken osha suggestions

[burnt valley]

bring 1 or 2 for a hard labour task

[burnt valley]

thats the problem with zombies specifically

[tall forge]

It would be a problem with skeletons

[burnt valley]

its easier to clean skeletons than rotting corpses

[tall forge]

Its easier to preserve em and stop rot, but they become more brittle and not particularly useful

[tender pier]

So basically, what im saying about my earlier question is that what would you all do with loyal intelligent autonomous summons in your life? (i shoulve maybe lead with this)

[atomic kayak]

Mildly harder on the player end - very easy as the DM who is creating the maps lol

[tall forge]

Oh i mostly mean player end

Dm end, ive been so, So brutal

[atomic kayak]

"This spell auto wins every encounter" meets the humble wall.jpeg

[tender pier]

You dont need to do world domination all the time
I plan on starting a mercenary buisness

why work so hard to burn the world down when you can benefit from its resources?

[burnt valley]

Never happens in an optimized party btw or the wall is also being used by the players as full cover

[atomic kayak]

"Never happens" lol thats a funny joke

[burnt valley]

only like the last step to being a lich is painful, even then it isn't like there's just one method to be a Lich

[atomic kayak]

The number of times ive seen optimized parties have their AoEs stifled by walls, pillars, and similar objects is. Too many to count

Watching pillars turn spheres into stars is funny

[uncut zenith]

AoEs are only “OP” in white room scenarios with “open field” battle maps

[atomic kayak]

The parties still do the best they can ofc, but the best they can is still far from the way people talk about those spells online

[umbral girder]

Excited to play my Wild Magic Barbarian

Being able to give out bonus spell slots is gonna be nice for the Eldritch Knight, Artificer, Paladin, and Wizard in the party

[undone rain]

Hey thats pretty cool

[umbral girder]

Give that Eldritch Knight a 33% increase to his daily spell slots

I think head goes numbers swimming around everywhere

[tall forge]

Yea i dont really like being an arms dealer either

[burnt valley]

there we go throwing the word "White Room" around

[burnt valley]

electric barbarian player lets gooo

[tall forge]

The whole “merchant of death” outlook tends to make you some enemies

[umbral girder]

That’s because it is

[echo meteor]

I did realize, that charisma skills feel almost taboo for the DM to use on the players. The NPC never tries to roll persuasion against the player characters or roll intimidate against them either.

I would guess a "soft rule" would be that you just don't roll charisma checks against players

[burnt valley]

its a "In a white room, sure, <your opinion>. But in actual play, <my opinion>" type argument

[still plover]

There's no mechanical support for it.

[echo meteor]

I've had situations where one player would try to use "charisma checks" to control other players into doing what they wanted them to do

[umbral girder]

Except it isn’t opinion it’s just a white room you’re doing

[burnt valley]

because its entirely reliant on DM fiat

[halcyon forum]

one of my DMs uses opposed persuasion rolls for haggling with merchants

[burnt valley]

same for mine as well

[echo meteor]

they would say they would say "i want to intimidate this party member" etc

[echo meteor]

well you dont oppose persuasion rolls with persuasion rolls

you oppose persuasion rolls with insight

[halcyon forum]

that would not make sense in that scenario

[echo meteor]

why not?

[halcyon forum]

there is no rule that says what skills need to be opposed to which either

[halcyon forum]

because both parties try to convince either other

[echo meteor]

ehh theres some, like stealth vs perception

[echo meteor]

well.. being convinced, is different from convincing others

[umbral girder]

Except it’s not. It’s Stealth vs Passive Perception.

[echo meteor]

perception and passive perception both use the same skill :/

[halcyon forum]

yeah and stealth does have some more specific rules attached to it compared to other uses of skills

[umbral girder]

Except they get get different formulas

[halcyon forum]

what does insight do in that situation? both already know what the other side wants

[echo meteor]

I think it makes better sense than a contested persuasion

[drifting zodiac]

I think duke of One Shot questers might have lost around 100k sub in the last week

[halcyon forum]

I dont see how but I guess agree to disagree

[echo meteor]

You arent trying to "persuade" them
you are seeeing if they can persuade you

[drifting zodiac]

Hello everyone

[halcyon forum]

both sides try to persuade the other one

[echo meteor]

no?

[halcyon forum]

the merchant tries to persuade that a higher price is reasonable, the player tries to persuade the merchant that a lower price is reasonable

[echo meteor]

and if one wins, does the other loses?

[drifting zodiac]

Wouldn't that just cancel each other out

[echo meteor]

they can just not reach an agreeement

each party can just believe that their price is correct and a deal would just not be made

a deal doenst NEED to happen

you are making it sound like if the "merchant wins" then it would be a higher price and if "player wins" it would be a lower price

[halcyon forum]

yes?

[echo meteor]

why cant you recognize the scenario where both believe their price is correct, and neither wants to do meet the other at their price

so, a deal doesnt happen

[halcyon forum]

some merchants might not haggle, thus no rolls, but that was not the situation I was talking about

[echo meteor]

yes, and they can always say "no" i wont be convinced by you

and the other can also say "no" i wont buy it for that price

and both can walk away without a deal being made

[woven flint]

Hello, friends

[halcyon forum]

you lost me. you are not engaging with the premise

[feral fulcrum]

Gawrsh, it's the Lord of Goofy.

[echo meteor]

the premise is that, you try to convince a merchant to lower their price. its not contested against persuasion

they arent trying to convince YOU

you are trying to convince them

[woven flint]

Hyuck! Yhuhp!

[halcyon forum]

of course they are, they want to sell their merchandise

[echo meteor]

not for a price that they dont want to sell it at. Especially not at a loss

[halcyon forum]

okay then that price is their lower limit

like, that is haggling 101

there are limits to how low/high a person is willing to go

[echo meteor]

maybe? but maybe you can "convince" them that their "lower limit" is actually wrong

[halcyon forum]

that was not part of the premise

[echo meteor]

that the market is oging to crash

[halcyon forum]

its just haggling

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, haggling typically means the vendor is selling at a higher price, but willing to be talked down to the absolute lowest price. That said, not every vendor is willing to haggle.

[echo meteor]

thats what persuasion is, and if its unlikely to crash, the DC would be high af

if something is impossible, dc would be 30 and you dont let them roll

[halcyon forum]

there is no DC, just range of possible price points both are theoretically willing to make a deal in

[echo meteor]

but its not a "contested persuasion"

[uncut zenith]

At the end of the day, even a haggling vendor won’t sell something for a price that won’t make them some sort of profit

[craggy summit]

-# atleast not without being threatened to

[tall forge]

You can try to scam them

[echo meteor]

It would if they are convinced that the price of the item would fall quickly or has fallen quickly so they need to cut their losses

[tall forge]

But youll be making enemies

[halcyon forum]

again, not what is happening in that situation

[tall forge]

And thats not really persuasion, thats deception

[echo meteor]

what makes you say the person that is trying to persuade doesnt also believes it would crash, and they are tryign to persuade you to get a better deal

[halcyon forum]

I didnt know haggling could be so complicated or controversial lol

[tall forge]

Your character would need actual evidence or a reason to think that

[echo meteor]

i mean.. economics and market forces is pretty complicated

[tall forge]

Otherwise, why would your character actively try and buy something about to fall in price

[echo meteor]

no, they are trying to buy it for the price that THEY think is fair

THEY think the lower price is fair because they think the price will go down or HAS gone down

[tall forge]

Yeah, they need a reason to think that

[halcyon forum]

do you not understand what haggling is?

[echo meteor]

its not that hard to come up with a reason.

[echo meteor]

yep, and haggling isnt what they show u in TV

[tall forge]

Thats making up a reason

[uncut zenith]

Honestly it kinda feels like there’s a combination of goalpost shifting and economics that D&D doesn’t account for here

[echo meteor]

the guys the one that brought up haggling and economics so i am just continuing with his argument

[tall forge]

If you make up a reason with absolutely no proof, youre lying

[drifting zodiac]

D&D&Economics

[halcyon forum]

I have never talked about economics

[tall forge]

I ask you to roll deception, because me as the dm gets to tell you what you roll

[echo meteor]

how the hell is haggling not economics

[halcyon forum]

and they dont really factor into this

[feral fulcrum]

I do believe this is now going in circles past one another.

[uncut zenith]

You’re the one who brought this point up

[tender fossil]

My players love economics. Granted two of the nations in our world are in the middle of a trade war

[halcyon forum]

economics influence the initial price point to some degree, but they dont influence the process of haggling itself

[echo meteor]

the whole buy/sell spread and haggling IS part of economics

you are trying to discover the price of a good

[tall forge]

End of the day, its up to the dm

So arguing isnt really productive

[drifting zodiac]

This topic is going in a rabbit hole( kinda like the merchant and the player haggling for the price)

[echo meteor]

a value of an item isnt static, it depends on the person.. and it usuaully lies inbetween the buy/sell spread of the item itself

[minor cargo]

I think the most important part is figure out if you're dealing with night, green, or sea haggling. You're in big trouble if it ends up being coven haggling.

[uncut zenith]

It’s static in D&D tho

[echo meteor]

well we were talking about haggling supposedly

[tall forge]

It kinda has to be static in dnd

[echo meteor]

and the guy was using the haggling as an example

[burnt valley]

this is the effect of a system reliant on DM fiat be like

[tall forge]

Dnd economy isnt exactly something meant to shift, otherwise a bunch of spell components fail

[feral fulcrum]

RAW, certainly, but many many people do not use RAW for Bartering, because it's goofy.

[echo meteor]

which is why i just do persusion vs insight

the person tries to convince/barter the merchant, merchant uses insight and says yes or no

[drifting zodiac]

The Hagglers of The Relam

[tall forge]

Thats your Choice for sure

[echo meteor]

okay cool.

[drifting zodiac]

Honour of the Hagglers

[tall forge]

For me, i just set a dc. I dont feel like giving my merchants stats lol

[echo meteor]

the DC is the wisdom unless they are prof with insight or something

[tall forge]

My dc is how well my players actually haggled

[echo meteor]

to eachu thier own i guess

[tender fossil]

Or just give them a tool to show that they've been trained in bartering.

[tall forge]

Incentivizes RP i find

[halcyon forum]

it makes no sense to use the merchants wisdom here. they know already exactly what their price range is

[uncut zenith]

Yeah I don’t typically give non-combatant NPCs any stats

[echo meteor]

r u trying to bring us back to the topic of economy again?

[drifting zodiac]

STOP

[feral fulcrum]

Round and round this argument goes, when it'll stop, nobody knows.

[tall forge]

If needed, i just make up npc stats on the spot

[uncut zenith]

If the party or a character wants to roll to convince a merchant of something, they just need to roll the appropriate check against a DC based on the difficulty

[tall forge]

True, i def add context to the dc

[uncut zenith]

The difficulty doesn’t need to be based off an NPC’s stats tho

[tall forge]

Party rep, what’s occurring around the world, etc

All gotta factor into it imo

[drifting zodiac]

Yep
See ya people after this is over

[echo meteor]

i just use the base price in the book, check how far, and see if the npc is “convinced” by rolling insight

or in other words, “deceived” into thinking if the price should be lower or higher then it’s supposed to be

[severe rampart]

How effective would it be to use hold person on someone and silvery barbs/cutting words them if they succeed in the save?

[rugged hawk]

It'll stop once we move on to discussing how based the alignment system is. Seriously, what could possibly have made it better?

[tall forge]

And whats your limit?

[echo meteor]

arguing about the meaning of haggling just gets back into economics

[halcyon bison]

This kinda sounds like sin interesting political intrigue campaign
The wealthy elite are keeping the value of gold artificially high to restrict the lower class’ access to magic

[tall forge]

If i ask for a 2k potion for 300 gold, is that allowed?

[echo meteor]

probs at most 20% of the base price

[tall forge]

It def could be, especially how expensive magic items are

[uncut zenith]

Ok, you can run your game how you want. That said, I’m kinda over this “discussion”, so I’ll be back when you’re all done

[echo meteor]

i’ll probably adjust it by ear

[severe rampart]

I wish this is what happened, I got swindled into an intense side quest by trying to scam a powerful wizard merchant

[tall forge]

Problem solved, we are all good to go

[feral fulcrum]

Bothering to use it more then five times in the entire system. Seriously there's like, Two spells, one class feature, and a handful of magic items that engage with it, and I think all but one of them were there from the start.

[echo meteor]

that wasn’t the argument. i was just arguing with the other guy that dc should be insight not persuasion. 😛

[tall forge]

Tbf thats a 5e thing

[echo meteor]

so it’s just agree to disagree xD

[tall forge]

I mean it can be either depending in the situation

Thats sorta up to the context and the dms ruling

🤷 easy answer

I find a lot of rules arguments in the dms side get solved with a “its how i run things”

[echo meteor]

i don’t think the merchant is trying to convince the player it’s THEIR price

it’s the other way around, where the player wants to convince the merchant it’s the players price

[atomic kayak]

Depends on your definition of effective. But that'd work fine yea

[rugged hawk]

Okay, I hear what you're saying, but there's a bunch of [Evil] and [Good] spells I can think of.

[atomic kayak]

Those generally detect creature type

[feral fulcrum]

5E has a lot of dead little sub-systems that it doesn't bother to use more then once in a blue move every couple of years, and when it does remember they exist, they put in the barest minimum of effort. 🙁

[echo meteor]

the price is pretty much set in stone in d&d perspective

it’s pretty onesided

[tall forge]

Mostly bc its leftovers from earlier editions

[rugged hawk]

No no, I mean like that [Evil/Undead] spell that fires your own finger bones as magic bullets

[tall forge]

And dnd, by trying to move to a more broader audience appeal, has become less set in stone with a lot of things

[atomic kayak]

Ironically, detect evil and good is pretty in line with how it was in previous editions - there was an alignment component to it, but it was also creature type based

[feral fulcrum]

90% of things that have [Evil}/{Good} In their name, don't even mention alignment at all. It focuses on Creature Types, like Detect Evil/Good.

[atomic kayak]

?

[tall forge]

Detect good and evil has no alignment component in 2014

[atomic kayak]

Ik, I was referring to previous editions, not 5e

[tender fossil]

It detects elementals which are by nature neutral

[echo meteor]

good and evil is pretty vague in itself

[tall forge]

Earlier editions, it wasnt

[atomic kayak]

Its not vague in 5e either

Well rather, its just as vague in 5e as it was in earlier editions

[tall forge]

More so, things just had alignments

[echo meteor]

its more of a tag that says a creature is “evil” or “good” than actual actions

[atomic kayak]

Fewer things that engage with it as a mechanic doesnt mean its more or less vague

[rugged hawk]

And thus my work here is done.

[tender fossil]

Alignment was heavily codified and a lot of earlier editions. Especially in the planescape setting

[echo meteor]

i think many people would take offense to certain codified actions

[atomic kayak]

Correct. The codification doesnt change what I am saying however

[stiff rock]

Will the ravenloft/arcana unleashed books contain new subclasses or player focused stuff? I can't find a lot of info about them

[feral fulcrum]

Would you need an infinitely long list of every possible action and if they're Objectively Good or Objectively Evil, or Chaotic, or Lawful? In order to declare Alignment as 'Not Vague'?

[rough basalt]

Yrah

Both will have new and updated subs if the UA held.

[tender fossil]

Almost certainly. Wizards has made it a point of always increasing player options with new releases. Though they might start having a DM book to accompany it

[rugged hawk]

Intent matters as much as actions. Just because you slaughtered a village that would have produced a tyrant, doesn't absolve you of having slaughtered a village.

[stiff rock]

new or 2014 updated?

[atomic kayak]

Yes, but there isnt a ton of info about them out there in general

[stiff rock]

ah fair enough, wasn't sure if there was something i'd missed tbh

[umbral girder]

Arcana we don’t know.

Ravenloft seem dm heavy but will have Reborn, Hexblood, and a Werewolf species in it

[rough basalt]

I'm looking forward to the other Wizard subs being updated

[stiff rock]

ravenloft looks like a revised lore/campaign setting book, right? it's not an adventure/rulebook

[umbral girder]

And I think Dark Gifts are gonna be origin feats I heard? Could be wrong in that one.

[rough basalt]

An expansion book sort of like Eberron Forge of the Arty I think

[tender fossil]

They've mentioned it but there's no real details yet

[feral fulcrum]

I can't wait to they Reprint and Randomly Nerf Scribe Wizard. :V

[atomic kayak]

The werewolf which ive been hearing might be an update of the leonin mechanics (vindication if true)

[undone rain]

Never know, perhaps someone innocent within that village was forced to do labour

[rough basalt]

Takes away their book

[rugged hawk]

Oooo, I can combine Dark Gifts with Dark Bargains? 👀

[echo meteor]

ohh,. also.. i think wisdom has alot to do with the ability to discern right from wrong.. as in the ability to discern the correct price vs wrong price 😛

[drifting zodiac]

I love to play a werewolf?

[atomic kayak]

Book will let you replace your origin feat with a dark gift

Which is in line with how dark gifts worked in VRGR

[feral fulcrum]

The Not Actually a Werewolf are Lupines in the Book, and I dare to presume, are not Werewolves

[tender fossil]

That begs the question are the dark gifts going to be more in line with the older version where they are more powerful but have a drawback

[rough basalt]

I'm hoping the final version of the frankenstein arty subclass is a bit better

[atomic kayak]

Since VRGR tacked dark gifts on before starting feats were baseline, akin to supernatural gifts which did the same

[feral fulcrum]

Because Werewolves stem from being Cursed, and being bitten by said Cursed individual.

[tender fossil]

Lupins are an old D&D race, originally dogmen that they are re-skinning into not werewolves

[tall forge]

Dont mind me, just massacring the entire elf species in my new world for my new campaign so they dont get in the way of my time line

[tender fossil]

And in the lore they absolutely hate the werewolves

[feral fulcrum]

We already had Discount Knockoff Werepeople anyhow, via Shifters.

[rough basalt]

This post was made by Sorcerer-King gang

[umbral girder]

Didn’t lupine have a Cursed Bite attack in that preview?

[rugged hawk]

I'll be disappointed if Dark Gifts don't have drawbacks. The whole point and fun of dark magic is obtaining what you want at often terrible costs

[umbral girder]

Giving out a bunch of disadvantages

[feral fulcrum]

Doesn't mean much more then Damphirs having a Bite Attack in 2014's Ravenloft

[still plover]

Be interesting to see how that works with the current design paradigm leaning towards only positives in builds.

[feral fulcrum]

If they want something to be Explicitly a Werewolf, or Explicitly a Vampire...they'll just call them that. Not slap on a different name just because Player Charecters.

[tender fossil]

I believe they gave them dark vision, a magical spell in the form of a howl, a bite attack and a skill

[stiff rock]

2024 definitely has a lot of stupidly good features so far

[umbral girder]

Well not disadvantage on the user. On the target they bite.

[feral fulcrum]

Everything gets Darkvision these days. It's a Free space on the Bingo card.

[tall forge]

What can i say, i love drinking elf blood

[valid geyser]

I think lupins are way cooler of a werecresture pc race than shifters

[tall forge]

Makes me younger

[tender fossil]

Dark vision and a spell

[rough basalt]

Not having darkvision is a skill issue

[umbral girder]

Wasn’t it like only 40% of species had dark vision?

[echo meteor]

its interesting that in D&D, if you want to be a good adventurer you want to maximize ONE mental stat (spell casting) AND your physical stats.. A well rounded person wouldn't make a great adventurer as a well rounded person would have good score in charisma, intelligence, AND wisdom...

which means, adventurers are filled with pretty special people

[undone rain]

Torbek has darkvision!

[rough basalt]

Ye more species don't have darkvision but most of the core species do

Like a lot or most of MotM species don't have darkvision

[atomic kayak]

Sort of

[feral fulcrum]

Hyperbole my guy. But seriously look at all the Species with Darkvission, and all the ones that don't. Darkvision gets slapped onto everything at random as a freebie pretty much.

"Hmm, this block could use more text to pad it out. Darkvision it is!"

[atomic kayak]

Depends on how you broke it up (all the species with subraces/variants made counting awkward, especially when accounting for things with differences - like the one human variant with darkvision)

[tender fossil]

It was giving everything spells became the problem. Originally in the PHB there was only three races that got spell abilities. At the end it was 60% of all of them

[valid geyser]

I just kinda hoped they’d have a slightly more unique mechanical side. They’re a little basic, and I wish they gave them some kinda weird ability like smell
And idk if this is a super hot take but I’m glad it’s just for werewolves since it’d be too generic if it was any lycanthrope

[atomic kayak]

It was something like, 57% with DV before 2024 iirc

[umbral girder]

Yeah there isn’t that many creatures that get Darkvision as you’d think

[atomic kayak]

Split pretty evenly in the PHB - it was just that the DV races were the one with subraces while others didn't - so it seemed like more got it

[rough basalt]

I like when people don't have darkvision in my games on foundry

It's funny how they legit can't see crap

[feral fulcrum]

Well that's a loaded sentence I don't want to unpack.

[tall forge]

It’s certainly comedic

[atomic kayak]

Ive heard tell that they might be largely just updated Leonin

[umbral girder]

Big YIKES

[woven flint]

That's words that were said

[valid geyser]

Yeah I remember thinking the two are way too similar

[atomic kayak]

Which is say is fitting (I have been using mildly modified Leonin for a dog race for forever)

[rough basalt]

Oh god

[atomic moat]

moon touched are common magic items, its really only an issue if you are trying to be stealthy.

[umbral girder]

Uhh

[sonic quiver]

carry on 👼

[atomic kayak]

(Note: the "slightly over 50" mostly came from the weird variants - stuff like Fire Genasi being the only Genasi with it, or the one variant human, or the dragonborn variants with it.)

[peak flume]

I need some ideas. My players are currently stuck in an anti-magic safe and are waiting out an hour to attune to an item that will let them use teleportation circle to get away. However outside of the safe are a bunch of devils who are trying to abduct them. They can wait the hour inside the safe but the spell wont work inside the safe so they will have to take a minute to leave the safe to try and cast it while being under attack. How can I make this an interesting encounter mechanically?

[tall forge]

As someone whose heard those exact words to me, i simply do not wanna hear them in my fantasy escapism game 😔

[frank rampart]

Magic staff idea: a wooden staff that allows you to cast spells but each time it grows and if you let it get it out of hand it casts wild magic every once and awhile until it’s trimmed back down

[tender fossil]

Dark vision got to the point where I made a creature that had the ability that it was invisible to dark vision. It was far more effective than it had any right to be. Tore the party up until somebody had the idea to light a torch and saw that they were being swarmed

[umbral girder]

So a Gloomstalker

[atomic kayak]

Its funny because even when you do have DV you want to have a light source anyway

In most scenarios

[umbral girder]

Yeah Darkvision in the Dark still gives you disadvantage on Perception checks

[atomic moat]

I can't say anything about the balance but that's definitely a setup for a lot of lewd jokes at the table.

[feral fulcrum]

Unless you've got Devil Sight, in which case you don't care.

[turbid vessel]

Or you're a shadow monk

[tender fossil]

Thoul variant.

Thoul is a classic monster, a combination of a ghoul, a hobgoblin and a troll. Possessing regeneration, paralysis and weapon use

[halcyon bison]

Sounds rather unpleasant to deal with

[feral fulcrum]

It could always be worse.

[tender fossil]

Depends on who's writing them unfortunately. But they go all the way back to the beginning. And it was originally a typo that they had to make rules for

[feral fulcrum]

I'm suddenly remidned of that MTG art mistake of Lemure's

[tender fossil]

Their art is all over the place. I don't think they've been drawn the same way twice, the most famous art had them looking like blix from legend

[feral fulcrum]

Artist that it was something about Lemurs, and not the DND Fiends

[covert root]

For which part? Oh, nevermind, you answered.

[feral fulcrum]

A Regenerating, Paralyzing Troll is decently bad to face down.

[tender fossil]

Typically they were used as elite mooks. Nothing to threaten a high level party but a nasty surprise for the low-level stuff

[feral fulcrum]

Then agian, most anything that can suddenly remove someone from the fight is pretty bad to face down.

[tender fossil]

The catch was they were a gotcha monster. You didn't know they were thouls you thought they were hobgoblins or something else so you wouldn't plan accordingly

[halcyon bison]

It just has to hope it never fights an elf pyromancer

[feral fulcrum]

300 HP at lvl 4? Sounds like a TPK

[tender fossil]

One trick I do enjoy using against my players is misinformation. If they confuse one monster for another it makes far more interesting combat

Like one villain naming his frost brand sword the fiery blade of flaming fire. And then they prepped all the wrong spells

That's why you going to deep dives in the Monster manual. Variety is the spice of life. People remember when you whip out the rare stuff

Players want to be challenged no threat no thrill. Throwing them a curveball at least once a session makes for a better game

And there were a lot of monsters that made them rethink their strategy. Dusanu, a skeleton animated by animated yellow mold. Looks like undead, obviously can't be turned, and if you hit it with a sword you get a face full of spores

The magic golem which couldn't be affected by magic weapons or spells. You had to put down the holy avenger and pick up a tree limb. They had a lot of creativity and the monsters back in the day

[burnt valley]

what level is the party when they fought it

[tender fossil]

The magic golem? I think we were around level 10 but this was back when classes had different experience charts. Look like a stone golem, until everything bounced off of it except for the one guy shield bashing it for 1D4 and that was the only damage it took

Then we beat it to death with backup weapons

[burnt valley]

oh older editions

[tender fossil]

There's no reason why we can't convert it to fifth

[echo meteor]

kind of.. they want to be told that theres a "risk of dying" but still have the feeling that they "overcame the odds"

so its kind of like a guard rail

that you give them.. but you dont tell them they have it

[tender fossil]

It does go both ways. When I get high level players I will occasionally throw them a cakewalk to remind them just how scary they are

[valid geyser]

A true 50/50 chance fight is gonna feel like a curbstomp half the time

[echo meteor]

a 50/50 doesnt feel like a 50/50, it feels like the dm is being unfair

[valid geyser]

D&D 5e is also just a system that’s, rather swingy
Good initiative rolls and lucky crits can change the course of a high difficulty encounter very easily

[echo meteor]

you can always manipulate it tbh

one obvious way i found was just to give them extra health potions

[tender fossil]

One of the difficulties of being a DM. Making the characters think they have a chance to lose

[echo meteor]

and keep track of how many they have throughout the fight, and if they run out... they "find" more

as part of the loot

[tender fossil]

But I've had players to get upset when the fight is too difficult when it's intended to be too difficult and they needed to be anywhere but there

[drifting zodiac]

Why just not make them lose ?

[echo meteor]

because you also want to advance the story

[swift wren]

They have? We play the clickyclacky dice game to obey the clickyclacky dice.

[echo meteor]

and you dont NEED a total TPK

just 1 or 2 characters dying sends the message too

[drifting zodiac]

You can also advance the story if you lose

[tender fossil]

The villain always wins in the middle

[echo meteor]

thats more work for the DM tbh

[swift wren]

Fail forward

[tender fossil]

Everything makes More work for the DM. They don't actually give the DM a lot of tools in this game

[drifting zodiac]

I feel like DM is like being a Goalkeeper in football

[echo meteor]

if i need to come up with some weird scenario to make their failure work forward.. id much rather just have them succeed with some casualty to just continue with the module

obviously i wouldnt tell them that

[burnt valley]

dnd by tradition always leaves it up to the DM, its just degrees of how much work you have to put in depending on the edition

[tender fossil]

Failure can give the party motivation. It can make them hate the villain. It can also push them into a larger adventure

[echo meteor]

yeah, but at that point you are doing more work because the party screwed up

[uncut zenith]

Welcome to DMing

[tender fossil]

Not if you plan it

[burnt valley]

i genuinely think they have way too much power

[echo meteor]

most moduels assume party succeeds or you have to make soo many stuff up if they fail

[uncut zenith]

There’s a certain level of improvisation that the DM needs to be ready to do

[tender fossil]

There's a classic module, nights Dark terror, considered by many to be the best module written. At second level very early on the party faces 70 goblins. They are not meant to win they are meant to run. And if they do run they end up at a fort under siege. The adventure is legendary for a reason

[echo meteor]

you're punished by needing to make up a ton of new weird ass content to get them back on the road, its almost incentivized for you to help them succeed

or you have to do MORE WORK to get them back on track

[uncut zenith]

If you weren’t expecting a “party loss” and as a party decide you’re not ready for the campaign to end, then the DM can choose to find a way to make that work for the campaign

[echo meteor]

or just say screw it campaigns over, yall died

[uncut zenith]

It’s happened to me before. I just skipped a session so I could prepare for how to bounce back

[echo meteor]

"game over" screens in video games are a thing too

[empty thicket]

2 fighters hitting each one from one side giving advantage remind me of this scene of mahito being beaten up in jjk.
I think too in those moments "they are jumping me, THEY ARE JUMPING ME!!"

[tender fossil]

Older editions actually had rules for getting captured and ransomed by monsters

[echo meteor]

yeah, it makes MORE work for you just to fix THEIR mistake, you WANT them to succeed so you dont have to do that extra work... OR you just say "GAME OVER, NEXT!"

[uncut zenith]

Is it their mistake or a result of bad dice rolls?

[tender fossil]

Or you can just pre-plan contingencies rather than doing it seat of your pants.

[uncut zenith]

Either way, it’s up to each individual DM to decide how much work they want to put into keeping the campaign going, regardless of whether the party “made a mistake” or not.

[echo meteor]

mix of both lol

[elder sleet]

Sup guys

[echo meteor]

you want it to be "difficult enough" so that its not a cakewalk and they feel like they are being challenged.. but not soo difficult that they just die out

[swift wren]

very depending on your campaign tbh

[echo meteor]

and yet on the other side, you dont want them to know that you are doing this

[swift wren]

some want a walking simulator, some want install a router via phone for seniors difficulty

[elder sleet]

ur advice is so good (im a beginner and i dont have dnd yet)

[uncut zenith]

Yeah there’s no one true way to handle it. It varies by DM, campaign, and players at the table.

[echo meteor]

no, its pretty much a given, because DMs have all the power to just kill all the players outright no matter how optimized their builds are

[tall forge]

No, some players enjoy easier combats

[echo meteor]

what you do is you judge how difficult the encounters would be

[humble cairn]

The healing numbers on the 2024 versions of Cure Wounds and Healing Word are pretty nice. I ended up playing healer a bit in this last session, picking up downed allies from the constant AOEs.

[tender fossil]

That's a good way not to get players to come back to the table though

[tall forge]

Or are more focused on the rp side of dnd

[swift wren]

Yes, as I said, prefered difficulty depends on the table. We are saying the same thing.

[south prawn]

I don’t view any module as a complete package. It would be impossible for them to pack every single thing a DM needs to have ready into each adventure. This is on the DM and I guess I don’t see it as more work… just normal work.

[uncut zenith]

Some tables are happy to just “game over” after a TPK, others wanna find a way to keep the campaign going somehow. It’s just a matter of figuring out what works for everybody at the table and what they agree to, preferably at session 0.

[meager fractal]

excited to see the new battle familiar spell

[humble cairn]

Which spell is that?

[tender fossil]

Some people like hard mode. There's a reason why Ravenloft and Dark Sun are popular

[echo meteor]

but compare players that are able to compelte every story quests vs players that end up wiping.. if you want to continue the module, the players that succeed need much less work to DM then the players that fail

[tall forge]

Personally, my group hates tpks. So any TPK that occurs is mist likely my fault as a dm

[meager fractal]

One of the spells specifically mentioned to be in the Arcana Unleashed book

[echo meteor]

yeah, you WANT them to think that the game is hard mode, and that they beat tthe game through all the odds..

[swift wren]

Neither of these translate to difficulty, but setting. A creepy gothic setting can be as deadly as anything else.

[humble cairn]

Is there an article? Link?

[tall forge]

Thats why i do so much math to find out what is then upper limit of what they can handle

[echo meteor]

even though in the background, you are silently controling the levers to make it seem like that they are just BARELY winning

[swift wren]

You want people to have fun, most of the time :)

[meager fractal]

https://www.enworld.org/threads/dungeons-dragons-announces-arcana-unleashed-new-magic-themed-sourcebook-at-49-99-price-point.718156/

[echo meteor]

the thrill of just BARELY getting out alive IS the fun

[swift wren]

Also, not really. Let the dice tell the story, adjust nothing.

[tall forge]

Table dependent

[echo meteor]

thats what most DMs WANT players to think

[tall forge]

I set up the stage, then let the dice roll. All my dice rolls are completely public

[swift wren]

Sounds great, some games are tour de force and absolute fun as everyone goes through hell, some are without any violence at all. Both can be equally great.

[swift wren]

I can tell you, I haven't fudged dice or statistics in a long time. The dice are good as they fall.

[uncut zenith]

To some, not to all

[turbid vessel]

You seem really fixated on the idea that the primary job of a DM is to lie to your players

[tall forge]

Its fine to lie about your dice, but ive found it way more fun in both sides that its more real

[echo meteor]

Exactly, tahts what you WANT them to think... yet you know that thats not how it actually goes down...
you adjust how they make decisions and make suboptimal decisions, you control how the dice roll

[knotty vine]

vecna

[echo meteor]

even you told me earlier that i was running my goblins too difficult

[south prawn]

My current main group would be devastated with a TPK. All new players and all pretty tied to their first characters. We’ve had one player death and it didn’t go well emotionally with the player

[tall forge]

Thats different

[burnt valley]

wdym by controlling how the dice roll?

[tall forge]

I mean changing your mindset midway through

[echo meteor]

yes, you play them slightly dumber if the players seem to be struggling, and smarter if they seem to be doing well

[knotty vine]

also cant liches see through darkness via true sight

[swift wren]

In fact, you do not. You roll them, and they tell the story. Roll in the open for a few sessions, do not change a thing, its fun.

[tall forge]

I do not, no

I play them the exact same otherwise its really obvious

[knotty vine]

fog cloud would prob be much better

[humble cairn]

Ahh interesting.

[near karma]

ew, are people seriously endorsing fudging here? Not lying to people is like one of the first things you learn in kindergarten. Being honest is good, actually.

[tall forge]

Again, i think its fine to fudge dice

[humble cairn]

Jallarzi's Storm of Radiance works great, if you can keep them in it.

[tall forge]

I simply dont think its universal, or even the best experience

[humble cairn]

I'd prefer to just disallow a roll rather than fudge. Personally.

[near karma]

as long as the players all buy into it in session 0

if the DM just fudges without saying they will do it, that's just a shitty thing to do

[echo meteor]

broo.l. you literally told me to run monsters differently against level 1s

[knotty vine]

i feel like fog cloud would work exactly the same

[tall forge]

Yeah…. Run them differently from the start

[meager fractal]

If you don't let the dice fall as they may when you DM the dice spirits will punish you when you aren't DMing. I have seen it.

[humble cairn]

Except it hinders allies as well, Jallarzi's does not.

[tall forge]

Pay attention to your parties skill level and run as difficult as needed

But changing in the middle of combat, which is what youre advocating for, isnt good combat encounter design

[echo meteor]

Thats what i said

you pretty much play it by ear and adjust

[turbid vessel]

Also you can just be transparent and ask for feedback from players. "How did that combat feel? Did it feel too strong, to weak, just right? Did anything feel off or mismanaged?' you don't have to be the man behind the curtain to adjust to your players tastes

[tall forge]

I feel like you love making arguments by tacking on points, then discarding said points when ever you get pushback

[knotty vine]

it just says "creautres in the area"

so it also effects allies

[humble cairn]

This was too short a sentence to make any relevant sense, care to explain more?

[uncut zenith]

It’s almost like the game works better with open and active communication or something

[minor cargo]

(If you want to be super clever, you can start this question with a rating out of 5 stars or whatever. That's much easier to answer than providing feedback. After they give it a rating (e.g. 3/5), you can then ask, "What's something that could've be done differently to make it 4/5?" It's also nice because you aren't asking them how to make it perfect, but how to generally improve time over time.)

[knotty vine]

you said Jall doesnt hinder allies while fog cloud does

[tall forge]

None the less, let me set up my outlook on combat so there isnt confusion

I find it most fun to play combat as made, without holding back. This means going into a combat with a level of difficulty you set based on your party and sticking to it

[limber trail]

No, this doesn’t make sense. It has to be something else.

[knotty vine]

one does more harm then good

[humble cairn]

Yes, because if you put an enemy in the fog cloud, your allies cannot see them either. But if you put an enemy is Jallarzi's Storm of Radiance you can still see and target them fine. In the first cae, you get a neutral roll. In the second case you can attack with Advantage because the enemy is blinded, but you can see them just fine.

[turbid vessel]

Everything comes back to Rose, Bud, Thorn being one of the best session debrief tools

[uncut zenith]

Yeah Jallarzi’s doesn’t obscure your allies’ senses, just the enemy in the AOE

[reef tundra]

I’m bad at fudging rolls because I can never put on a poker face to hide what the original roll was

[uncut zenith]

The caster’s allies outside the AOE can see their enemy fine

[knotty vine]

i do wish jumping wasnt as useless as it was in dnd

[crimson gulch]

I'm not a fan of fudging rolls, I roll in the open

[knotty vine]

i dont get the point of fudging dice rolls if you pass you pass and if you fail you fail

[turbid vessel]

My only issue with rolling in the open is that players can reverse-math their way into learning the modifiers of the statblock.

[crystal latch]

I despise cheating of all kinds

[humble cairn]

Regular jumping is meh, but the Jump spell and boots of springing and the harengon hop are great!

[echo meteor]

sure, but you decide WHEN you roll the dice, when you decide the monster is going to "attack" or go behind cover and take a hide action, disengage, etc

[kind gorge]

It's a little bit better if you house rule a little that as long as you land at the same elevation or higher, you don't take fall damage

[reef tundra]

I only ever do it when I’m the dungeon master and it’s an enemy that’s about to obliterate a low level player. Outside of that, I ain’t doing it

[knotty vine]

im pretty sure theres a thing about how elephants can still jump higher then house cats

[echo meteor]

they cna make slightly less optimal choices if you fee like the players are struggling

[knotty vine]

unless dnd changed it in 5.5e

[echo meteor]

or just make optimal/smart choices

[reef tundra]

And if the player themself is really new. If it’s a player that remotely has any experience then they don’t get that mercy

[echo meteor]

monsters that are played tactically, i find are just ALOT more deadly than monsters that are played dumb/straightforward manner

[turbid vessel]

I promise you that viewing the game through the lens of "optimal and suboptimal" isn't as great a tool as you think

[knotty vine]

sometimes i lie about failing a dice roll just to hear how the dm might describe me failing

[echo meteor]

well, i know if i play the monsters in a way that they make the "best choice possible" it will end up TPKing the players

[kind gorge]

which obviously doesn't make sense, but isn't an argument for useless vs useful

Jumping 30 feet in the air to attack a flying foe via the jump spell, then landing... taking damage and going prone, is useless 🙂

[crystal latch]

If the game system can be suspended entirely in order to force a specific outcome, the entire game is effectively not being played - every non-vetoed outcome is subject to an invisible veto, and therefore you're watching a movie

[turbid vessel]

If it's not the thing you want to do, then it's not the best choice. Your goal as a DM isn't to "win" DND, or get as close as you can to it.

[knotty vine]

i dont even think thats possible

cause that imples you have to get a 10ft jump distance which isnt that easy without a running start

[crystal latch]

Or in other words
If fudging is on the table at all, every outcome is effectively fudged because the GM could have set it to something else if they wanted to. Even when rolled, the dice do not exist - thus, gameplay does not happen and all is an illusion

[knotty vine]

even with a 20 in strength and the jump spell the max distance you could get is 24ft

[echo meteor]

thats my point

[humble cairn]

They specifically said the jump spell. Oh and this would be the 2024 version.

[lavish flame]

I'm pretty lucky in that I have pretty middling luck as a DM, so I don't have to fudge dice. My dice rolls are never all 1s or all 20s

[knotty vine]

oh thats useful i guess

[echo meteor]

and one of the ways to stem it is to just make tactical choices thats "suboptimal" while still keeping the rolls honest

[faint thicket]

I fudge dice all the time, when a DM attacks me I sometimes raise my AC if I think it's more cinematic if I dont get hit. If I attack a monster I sometimes give myself a crit for story telling reasons.

[kind gorge]

I said via the jump spell

so 10 feet running start... and 10 feet of movement gives you 30 feet

you'd actually have 10 feet left

[knotty vine]

i didnt know they changed the jump spell

[tall forge]

Id also argue most creatures dont know whats optimal or suboptimal

[humble cairn]

Much easier to use now, no need to calculate jump distance with that silly calculation.

[turbid vessel]

Yeah, it's a little less exploitable now but much more versatile in the situations it's useful in

[tall forge]

I play encounters based on intelligence as well

[knotty vine]

it wasnt exploitable at all wdym 😭

[tall forge]

Wild animals are gonna gang up on 1 guy and drag their unconscious bodies

[kind gorge]

yea and it's a bonus action too

it's pretty good utility now

[humble cairn]

Jump spell on a Monk with Step of the Wind got kinda crazy.

[knotty vine]

again with a 20 in strength and the jump spell casted in 14 the max you could get with a running start was 24

[kind gorge]

yea I don't even think you need a running start... it's just 10 feet of movement give you 30 feet

but again, it needs to be house ruled to avoid landing prone and taking damage

[knotty vine]

in 2014 jumping only used strength but ok

thats why it was it was so worthless

[kind gorge]

the spell says up to 30 feet which most people read as you can jump 30 feet if you want, not can

[reef tundra]

I have never imagined terror as scary as a Goliath Monk with jump cast on them leaping out of the sky towards me

[atomic kayak]

The books even advise fudging as an option. Its one of (mentioned multiple times actually) as a reason to have a DM screen (it advises hiding rolls for a number of reasons, but only a handful of reasons for rolling open)

[knotty vine]

i just said in 2014

[kind gorge]

sorry

[knotty vine]

the spell only used to triple your jump rather then just allowing to you to something

[crystal latch]

The DMG is stupid for a multitude of reasons

[humble cairn]

I had the Boots of Springing and Striding on my Beast Barbarian, it was a lot of fun.

[reef tundra]

I think it should just be an agree to disagree moment. We play our campaigns differently, and we shouldn’t assert our ways as better than others

[jovial shadow]

I remember sometime last year or the year before there was a big discussion on if is it cheating if the DM fudge dice rolls in private, on some youtube channel. Lot's of DM's were stern that they had every right to roll in private and fudge rolls as needed. I can understand the number of reasons why a DM would want to roll and keep it private. If you consider the glass half full, then you would believe the DM is helping the players. On the other hand, you may think the DM just wants to kill you all and makes sure the rolls are always in the monster's favor.

[atomic kayak]

Like most things, fudging is a useful tool in the DM toolkit. Not always needed to be used, but helpful to have the option to utilize

[crystal latch]

If fudging is acceptable when the DM does it it's also acceptable when PCs do it

[atomic kayak]

Not really

[tall forge]

No, very different

[reef tundra]

No

[atomic kayak]

Thats pretty definitonally a false equivalent

[reef tundra]

Holy hell that is a reach

[valid geyser]

Fudging is a neutral tool, it’s good or bad depending on if individuals believe the dice should be the final arbitrator of outcomes

[tall forge]

There is a severe inequality of power there

The dm controls the game, therefore has the right to hide things from players if need be

[knotty vine]

i still want there to be proper rules for a bigger creature falling on top of a smaller creautre

[crystal latch]

The point of fudging is to impose your will on the game world by force in a manner that bypasses the rules entirely, creating a video game cutscene

[reef tundra]

Let’s all just drop the topic since it’s futile and accept people’s tables are different, and let’s especially not break our knees by making wild jumps like that

[tall forge]

The dm literally controls the world to begin with

[jovial shadow]

Fudging rolls is not neutral, in fact it's the antithesis of neutral.

[reef tundra]

I do it so my new players don’t have to sit out on their first combat

[crystal latch]

The DM is first and foremost the referee

[atomic kayak]

It is funny though, since its like many other things where the books do talk about it (particularly the 2014 dmg) but people act like they don't. Same applies to many other DM concepts

[burnt valley]

i agree, if the DM is told to not play fair then why would we?

[valid geyser]

Which can take agency from players. It just depends on a player/GM social contract if that is acceptable at times

[kind gorge]

I think the game falls apart if players fudge rolls

while the dm can and it still be a good experience, I think fudging rolls shouldn't be done 🤷‍♀️

but on the flip side, I adjust monster HP at times which is just as bad, so nobdy's perfect

[tall forge]

I find fudging specifically useful when youre a new dm, trying not to tpk the party

[crystal latch]

I never fudge and would never play at a table where fudging is tolerated

[jolly agate]

Hello chat

[tall forge]

Encounter building is tough, people make mistakes

[burnt valley]

based

[knotty vine]

is the dm god or the referee is here again

[tall forge]

Do the players deserve to be punished for making an encounter busted?

[jovial shadow]

Fudging dice rolls and changing a monsters HP on the fly are two different things

[reef tundra]

Guys this is an agree to disagree situation.

[atomic kayak]

In game terms, fudging a roll as a DM is similar to choosing to add any number of things to a scenario

[jolly agate]

Ye but in silly ways

[atomic kayak]

Fudging the HP is still fudging the HP

[south prawn]

I’m in the camp of not fudging. But I reserve it as a tool if absolutely needed to correct my own screw up

[jolly agate]

only silly stuff, nothin too hard

[tall forge]

Either way, i agree with swampellow. Its a tool used when and if needed

[reef tundra]

We all have our different views on this, let’s respect that and drop it

[tall forge]

Some consider it a crutch, like training wheels

[near karma]

yes, the books sometimes do give horrid advice

[reef tundra]

Because this is just gonna go on over and over

[valid geyser]

I also think that there’s different ideas of what fudging is here. I feel like haen’s idea is much more extreme than what I’m thinking of

[atomic moat]

It's better if combat rolls are out in the open for players and DMs so there is no question about fudging. Certain skill rolls do have to be done behind a screen to prevent revealing info the party shouldn't know though.

[crystal latch]

I would consider the normalization of fudging to be one of the biggest blights on the mindset of the playerbase

[faint thicket]

It quickly makes me lose trust in people who do

[kind gorge]

I'd say fudging rolls to hit when you would otherwise miss vs changing monster hp are vastly different

but fudging as to not outright kill a player... jmo, not that different imo

[tender fossil]

If the monster turns out to be too powerful, you can always have animator suffer a fatal heart attack

[reef tundra]

Indeed. There is also the difficulty of people straight up having different views on what the topic even is

[faint thicket]

Just roll in the open

[atomic kayak]

I definitely do utilize it as a tool. Especially at those lower levels.

Its not particularly fun for anyone when the 2 kenku get max rolls and crits on three players in the first ever combat session and straight up kill two PCs

[tall forge]

Maybe also not everyone wants to die in 1 shot from a nat 20 at lvl 1

[crystal latch]

That's just level 1 gameplay

[humble cairn]

Conversations do that in a stream of consciousness chat room like this, it's inevitable.

[tall forge]

Yeah, and some people dont like that

[south prawn]

Nobody wants to. But it happens

[faint thicket]

Let me ask people, why roll in the first place if you are gonna fudge?

[knotty vine]

level one game play should be people falling like flies!

[rough basalt]

To give the illusion of chance.

[atomic kayak]

Because its a collaborative game

[reef tundra]

Yeah. That’s true. I’m out

[tall forge]

Because the dms job first and foremost in my opinion, is to ensure the table has fun

[valid geyser]

Like yes a hypothetical game where the DM never rolls and just decides when things happen and if players are even able to react to things is bad, but a lot of times, fudging can just be “I didn’t expect this fight to be so hard and this crit would kill the wizard, let’s just make that a normal hit”

[crystal latch]

Level 1-2 gameplay is high lethality - too high by design but that's the game

[swift wren]

Okay, lets change the topic. Which monster would be the most competent postman for a small city.

[atomic kayak]

The DM is removing choice all the time - its quite literally a part of their role

[tall forge]

Bagman

[knotty vine]

imps

[swift wren]

good discussion, everyone, its over

[atomic kayak]

Level 1 and 2 gameplay is straight up designed and intended to be tutorial levels

[rough basalt]

Least that's my take.
Fudging will make me leave a game on the spot if I figure it out.

[tall forge]

Ggs i win

[swift wren]

oh true, for smaller things and higher places

[crystal latch]

A better way to handle "I screwed up encounter design" is being honest with your players, saying you messed up and asking if everyone would be fine with a rewind - builds trust instead of lying

[tall forge]

I agree, a dm if they fudge must never let it be known

[atomic kayak]

Doesn't matter how well balanced an encounter is made

[rough basalt]

Cause if it's known then there's no telling how much they fudge or if your choices even matter

[knotty vine]

i dont know what side to be on im not gonna lie

[tall forge]

I fully agree with that

[rough basalt]

And you can't trust their word cause they already showed that your choices don't always matter.

[atomic kayak]

Its not a screw up of encounter design if you randomly roll way too well and do way more than the average damages of a monster

[knotty vine]

to fudge or not to fudge

[tall forge]

Once youve shown you fudged, and lied about it, you failed

[crystal latch]

If any fudging exists then none of your choices matter because if the outcome wasn't de facto vetted then it could have

[atomic kayak]

Nah

[south prawn]

My players already know the world is deadly and things exist that are stronger than them.

[valid geyser]

You are right, it is a trust issue. It’s an issue when it breaks the trust of players. So if a GM wants to be honest about something like it, and a player is also cool with it, it’s a non-issue

[swift wren]

Let the monster die and come back as a resurrected body (Zombie) and its mind as specter. Just go all out.

[knotty vine]

does that mean the portant dice is legal fudging?

[tall forge]

Lmao

[crystal latch]

Portent isn't fudging because it's a class feature

[knotty vine]

but your changing a roll from one thing into another

[tall forge]

My new rule as a dm, its just god portent dice-ing the rolls i dont like

[crystal latch]

By using a game mechanic, not by cheating

[feral fulcrum]

Now I want some Fudge.

[rough basalt]

DM who doesn't want his PCs to have agency so he constantly portents them and says "I'm not fudging its portent"

[knotty vine]

same

[faint thicket]

Would it be okay for a player to fudge if a combat is too hard?

[atomic kayak]

There's a bit too much moralistic judgement happening around an aspect of the game and system that is intended to be utilized that does not have moral value tied to it

[rough basalt]

No

[knotty vine]

brb imma go get some fudge from the freezer

[umbral girder]

No

[swift wren]

Honestly, if a player communicates that they really want a certain outcome for a price - thats on the tabe. Price to pay.

[tall forge]

I think some moral judgment on being lied to and figuring it out is ok

[atomic kayak]

Fudging is, like many other things, a DM tool. Not a player one.

False equivalents arent helpful for discussion

[south prawn]

If my encounter is too hard, the PCs better be ready to flee

[tall forge]

But on actively using a tool, its a bit much

[faint thicket]

So we understand why fudging is bad than if one player can't do it while the other can (because yes the DM is a player as well)

[atomic kayak]

If you want to bring it into that - fantasy is inherently lying

[crystal latch]

I wouldn't call it a tool, just a bad practice

[rough basalt]

Same here.
The last thing I'll ever do is take away my players agency for a non-good reason.

[knotty vine]

you wanna know the real hero in a adventuers story

[tall forge]

True but you know what i mean

I stand by if you lie about fudging, you better never let it be known

[atomic kayak]

It is quite literally a tool. It is one of the tools the system specifically accounts for. Stop trying to be moralistic about it

[rough basalt]

I'll straight up never talk to a dm again if I realize their fudging to save the party if I'm in said party.

[tall forge]

But i wont judge if i dont know

[knotty vine]

there clothes if it but from a goblin shotting a whole in your chest a dragons fire breathe your clothes are the one thing that never gets broken unless the dm says so

[crystal latch]

The DMG gives bad advice

[atomic kayak]

I don't believe anybody said anythint about specifically fudging to save a party? There's a lot of reasons to fudge.

[crystal latch]

Even a-certain-system-that-shall-not-be-named has better DMing advice than 5e in this regard

[faint thicket]

Why play a game if you are going to cheat

[knotty vine]

Sage advice?

[rough basalt]

Yeah, like making sure players don't get punished for their mistakes and stuff like that

[swift wren]

You can talk about pbta in here

[faint thicket]

This isn't moralism it's just ruining the game

[knotty vine]

the whole point of dnd is GAMBLING

[atomic kayak]

Bad take. The DMG actually gives tons of great advice. It in fact gives a lot of advice that people online tout as good advice "the DMG doesn't give" - despite it being there

[tall forge]

Dms job is to ensure fun, ino

[crystal latch]

The DMG gives plenty of terrible advice, especially the new one

[tall forge]

If fudging ends up ruining the fun, its bad

If it doesnt, its ok

[rough basalt]

For some people it is fun to not have choices matter but rather the illusion they matter.

[faint thicket]

I have infinitely more fun when I know for certain my choices matter

[atomic kayak]

Like, a ton of "advice" things online are, knowingly or not, repeating things the DMG says

[tall forge]

Tell tale games moment

[jovial shadow]

I was responding to another poster. It was my attempt to make sure the discussion didn't slippery slope

[tall forge]

Except we hide the fact that every choice led to the same outcome

[rough basalt]

Fallout 4 moment

[swift wren]

The Quantum Ogre

[crystal latch]

Quantum ogres are massively cringe

[tall forge]

Realistically, i find that it doesn’t matter unless its actively hampering fun

[rough basalt]

"As you go to accept that you failed your dice roll, you actually succeed instead"

[faint thicket]

The issue is that normalizing lying is gonna eventually blow up in your face and ruin the fun

Honesty is the best policy

[tall forge]

No, not really

[near karma]

-5e?
iirc SWSE says DMs can fudge so 3e and 4e probably also say that

Fabula Ultima doesn't say the GM can cheat :)

[swift wren]

Give them an outcome at a price; tadaaaaa. You rescue the other player character and auto-succeed, but your favourite arm gets ripped off.

[atomic kayak]

"Normalizing lying" by playing a game that is fundamentally about making up lies.

Again, storytelling is lying

[tall forge]

My players never found out 😎

[crystal latch]

I meant a certain other game that starts with an F

[rough basalt]

I mean it can if you don't tell them upfront that "your choices will only matter as long as they work out for you, if things go wrong, I'll fudge them so they go right"

[near karma]

Oh 💀

[tall forge]

And eventually i understood combat encounters enough to not need to fudge

[crystal latch]

Not unless you're reading a novel aloud to someone and deliberately saying words that aren't on the page

[faint thicket]

I have had DMs say they made a mistake and then they removed some monsters, those didn't impact my fun of the game

[burnt valley]

Ultima points kinda busted tho

[tall forge]

And ive had dms say “i didnt mean to kill you, you can stay alive” and it very much impacted mine

Everyones idea of fun is different

[atomic kayak]

The "balance" between the DM and other players in 5e (and dnd and similar systems) is inherently and purposefully imbalanced ""in favor"" of the DM - it gives tools to enable that

[humble cairn]

Fate?

[near karma]

yeah, the system isn't perfect
if bosses blow all their ultima points in one fight, things can be not very fun

[rough basalt]

Ye it's on sight for me if I die and a dm says "a random npc comes by and casts revivify" in the middle of the Arctic.

[abstract pumice]

I think fudging is good in the specific instance of a player having too many bad rolls and getting frustrated. It is a game meant for fun, and if someone is truly having a bad time because the dice just haven't given them a single win in a 3 hours of a 4 hour session, I'm going to fudge some for them.

[rough basalt]

I think they should roll better

[tall forge]

Actually pisses me off more than being lied to and me not noticing for months

[burnt valley]

fair enough

[atomic kayak]

Roleplaying is lying as well. You are pretending something that isn't true or real is. But we arent being moralistic about that for whatever reason.

[faint thicket]

Mfw there are ways to prevent this as a player

[rough basalt]

Because role-playing isn't usually lying to disguise that your tables choices don't matter

[atomic kayak]

Whose to say fudging automatically is?

[faint thicket]

Mfw railroading has been considered bad for years

[atomic kayak]

A lot of fudging happens to make table choices matter

[rough basalt]

I mean it depends on what you call railroading

[tall forge]

Well, a railroad you NOTICE is bad

A railroad you never notice is fine

[faint thicket]

So a player fudging isn't bad if no one notices?

[swift wren]

Then you railroad smth and thats good. Or you go open map, and do an actual open map

[rough basalt]

Linear games can be good, but if it's Fallout 4 where you only have 1 answer to every quest which is yes then its not good.

[atomic kayak]

One of the most common things people fudge is monster HP - the classic "he would die but has 1 hp but actually you kill him"

[near karma]

In the FU campaign I was playing in, the GM gave a boss Arcanum of the Frost... combat ended very fast with us getting burst down by repeated arcana dismissals

[tall forge]

False equivalence again, the DM and the player arent the same

[near karma]

It's very funny that the GM is allowed to do that

[rough basalt]

I'm of the opinion they should've rolled 1 higher damage or I should've.

[faint thicket]

How is it different

Both are working to have collaboration fun together

[tall forge]

The dm actively controls the world, decides on rulings, and is the arbiter of rules

The player exists in the world and reacts and interacts with it

[tender fossil]

That gives the DM to read the room. If the party is bored with the fight you just kill the monster earlier. If they aren't challenged enough bump up those hit points

[atomic kayak]

As for railroading - people use it as a buzzword too much.

Namely because a lot of people don't acknowledge the concept of "buy in". People use the term railroad especially often when they are simultaneously refusing to buy into the game

[tall forge]

The rules are a tool for players to interact with the world

[burnt valley]

bruhhhh

[jovial shadow]

I just checked the DMG and I can't find anything where it says the DM should fudge dice, re-roll dice or anything else.

[faint thicket]

Still doesn't explain why a player fudging is bad if they aren't caught

[swift wren]

As said, if you are really unhappy with something - talk to your GM and offer a price. If everyone is fudging and not telling , why play a narrative game

[tall forge]

Power dynamics, mostly. But if no one notices, it hurts no one

[atomic kayak]

Its already been explained to you. Fudging is a DM tool. Not a player one.

[crystal latch]

Railroading is when you force players along a specific plot path, so to speak, putting them back on track through often convoluted means or denying them agency outside of a single line of action

[faint thicket]

Why

[tall forge]

The dm is in a higher position of power than a player

[atomic kayak]

It would be the equivalent of a player saying "theres actually a monster on our side in this encounter now" - choosing what monsters are present is a DM tool, not a player one

[tall forge]

Automatically they can do more

[crystal latch]

For example the Spelljammer module or Eve of Ruin's expected gameplay

[atomic kayak]

^

[rough basalt]

Fallout 4 be the perfect example of a railroad and what I'll always use as the example of one.
Every conversation has 4 options and 3 are saying yes, while 4 is saying yes but sarcastically.

[near karma]

the DMG?
RAW, fudging is something the DM is stated to be able to do

ofc they shouldn't (unless everyone buys in at session 0 which I doubt most people would do)

[tough torrent]

I'm lookin for a little DM advice
I'm running a Baldur's Gate 3 campaign, but I've been altering it in little ways to prevent it from just being a copy/paste of the game. One of the changes I'm considering making is having the party arrive at the Emerald Grove before it's attacked instead of when it's being attacked, where they would meet a much more chill Kagha who hasn't started the Rite of Thorns yet. The only issue is finding the party something to do before the grove is attacked. I'm considering having them investigate the True Soul Halsin had killed before he left, maybe acting as a scouting party in the hopes of finding out what's going on.

[tall forge]

Knowing when to fudge or knowing how to not have to fudge to not tpk is PART of a dms responsibility

[jovial shadow]

Not if the players consider it cheating. Then they will be a DM of an empty table.

[faint thicket]

Why would that mean that a player can't fudge? If the DM is ignoring the rules why can't I

[rough basalt]

If my players didn't wanna tpk they should've rolled better or made me roll worse.

[south prawn]

I’m not going to make an argument for fudging dice, but it’s pretty easy to make an argument why the DM role is different than a Player role. Cmon now lol

[atomic kayak]

The funniest part about the earlier dismissal of the DMG talking about fudging is it is quite literally part of the section talking about table etiquette

It gives a bunch of good advice about it

[tall forge]

Go back to when i said “the dm is the arbiter of the rules”

[near karma]

fudging is following the rules (unfortunately)

[tall forge]

Absolutely, but if the players have fun? Fudging is fine

[near karma]

yes, there is both good and bad advice in the DMG

[tender fossil]

Unfortunately also a lot of missing advice

[tall forge]

Again, its about fun. Its a table with friends, and some people dont want to tpk and thats fine

[rough basalt]

They can find another table

[tall forge]

the dms job is to make sure its a fun game

[atomic kayak]

I strongly suspect a lot of the people who are complaining about the DMG talking about fudging haven't actually read that section

[faint thicket]

Arbiter means they solve disputes not make things up

[atomic kayak]

Considering so many of the counter arguments have been things the DMG literally addresses

[south prawn]

This is clearly a different strokes for different folks situation

[rough basalt]

There's plenty of tables where DMs won't let players die for any reason.

[tall forge]

“a person who settles a dispute or has ultimate authority in a matter.”

[crystal latch]

The DMG advocating for fudging at all is a problem

[tall forge]

The “or has ultimate authority” is what i mean by arbiter

[faint thicket]

Okay and? Why can't the players fudge

[tall forge]

The dm is the arbiter of the rules. Ive said this

[jovial shadow]

I didn't see any kind of fudging dice rolls in the DMG. I'd like to know the page number, because I own one

[faint thicket]

Where in the rules does it state players can't fudge

[tall forge]

They have absolute authority over the rules

[south prawn]

Where exactly does the DM advocate for that? I’ve read through it quite a bit and don’t remember ever seeing that

[warm shore]

I’m new, what’s fudging?

[faint thicket]

Oh wow

[tall forge]

When i, the dm, who has absolute authority, says so

[crystal latch]

Cheating with dice rolls

[faint thicket]

Changing a dice roll because you don't like it

[rough basalt]

Usually to save players from themselves so they don't die.

[warm shore]

Isn’t it just not allowed then 😭 or am I missing something

[atomic kayak]

"Because you don't like it" is wonderfully reductive

[tender fossil]

Normally only for the DM to do because if a player starts lying about their dice rolls that causes problems

[crystal latch]

If anyone lies about one die roll it sets the precedent they could be lying about any die roll

[jovial shadow]

Whomever keeps saying that the DMG allows fudging of rolls by the DM, please provide a pg number?

[south prawn]

This is mostly a DM Discussion at this point

[near karma]

let me find it for you rq

[uncut zenith]

The 2024 rulebooks do have a section that gives DMs guidance on when and when they shouldn’t consider fudging dice. Ultimately they advise to only fudge dice if it leads to more fun at the table. If you know an honest roll is gonna be a bummer, fudge it.

[atomic kayak]

Yep, same with 2014

[faint thicket]

This is the equivalent of turning on God mode in Skyrim because it's too hard

[tall forge]

It is not

[rough basalt]

If I know a roll is a bummer it is how it is.

[warm shore]

Isn’t it kinda douchy if anyone lies about dice rolls then?

[faint thicket]

It's can be fun but it's not fulfilling

[atomic kayak]

As said, its mentioned as a tool in the toolkit

Its also specifically mentioned in the context of whether or not rolls should be hidden (while it gives advice for both, theres a lot more that advises keeping rolls hidden for a variety of reasons)

[faint thicket]

I agree

[frail wasp]

its more like how baldurs gate 3 rerolls failures if you're already on a failure streak

[rough basalt]

Lying about rolls will always be contentious cause not everyone likes the idea of being protected by the DM and obviously hates the idea of players cheating.

[near karma]

DM Die Rolling

Should you hide your die rolls behind a DM screen, or should you roll your dice in the open for all the players to see? Choose either approach, and be consistent. Each approach has benefits:
Hidden Die Rolls. Hiding your die rolls keeps them mysterious and allows you to alter results if you want to. For example, you could ignore a Critical Hit to save a character's life. Don't alter die rolls too often, though, and never let the players know when you fudge a die roll.
Visible Die Rolls. Rolling dice in the open demonstrates impartiality—you're not fudging rolls to the characters' benefit or detriment.
Even if you usually roll behind a screen, it can be fun to make an especially dramatic roll where everyone can see it.

page 16 of the 2024 dmg

[tender fossil]

If I'm the DM I will often roll dice just because I like the way they sound. And then tell the players what's happening in the adventure because that makes it more entertaining

[frail wasp]

baldurs gate 3 seems to be doing okay

[crystal latch]

Karmic dice in bg3 suck

[rough basalt]

That system actually doesn't work that way lol

[faint thicket]

Genuinely why roll a dice if you are just going to ignore it

[lavish flame]

No, I kinda think its the equivalent of changing the lighting of a scene in a movie to change the feelings the scene is meant to convey. The director is using something in their toolkit to enhance the story everyone is telling.

[tall forge]

As i said, dms job to me is to ensure the table has fun

[south prawn]

Obfuscation. I do it a lot too.

[burnt valley]

thats exactly the point

[rough basalt]

The karmic dice are notoriously you roll 3 numbers
1, 9, 20

[faint thicket]

Lighting doesn't give a character plot armor

[crystal latch]

Movie wise the best example of fudging is the disappearing weapon in the throne room fight scene in The Last Jedi

[rough basalt]

Ye lighting doesn't make the protagonist dying make the protagonist suddenly live, it enhances the impact.

[crystal latch]

The equivalent of lighting is a DM using more flowery language in descriptions

[lavish flame]

How is everyone always so opposed to thinking through a hypothetical. This is the only place I've been to on the internet where people consistently refuse to look for subtext or implication. Engage with my meaning, not my words.

[rough basalt]

Well how does lighting magically make a dying character come back to life?

[jovial shadow]

Thanks for the Reference. So fudging dice rolls in hiding, according to the DMG, is only in the players' favor.

[faint thicket]

I did, it doesn't apply. Lighting is more like using a cool custom dice instead of a boring normal one

[uncut zenith]

It’s in favor of the collective enjoyment of everybody at the table, whether they’re a player or a DM

[tall forge]

End of the day, fudging or not, its up to the table.

And if you make moral judgements about the rules other people play by, youre weird

Personally, im for whatever lets people have the most dun

[crimson gulch]

My players apriciate my dedication to not fudging the dice i know. Open rolls and hard challanges keep things fair

[atomic kayak]

Yea im all for a discussion about the benefits for/against hiding/not of dice

But being moralistic about it is. Bad. To say the least.

[rough basalt]

I just think that if we don't want chance and choices to matter then why are we playing something with chance as part of its core existence.

[crystal latch]

I am a strong advocate for a greater pushback against fudging in discussion of D&D in general, I oppose the normalisation of it

[atomic kayak]

And people almost always get way too moralistic about it

[jovial shadow]

So according to the DMG, DM's fudging rolls against players, and in favor of monsters etc. is a liability

[tall forge]

Yeah im majorly against fudging rolls against players

[faint thicket]

The issue is how can you possibly know if fudging will make more fun or if overcoming a challenge that is hard will create more fun

[tall forge]

Up to your party. Get to know em maybe

[frail wasp]

fudging is usually something the players dont know about, so it doesn't have the opportunity to spoil the players fun

[jovial shadow]

So it seems most people agree that DM's rolling in secret is a bad idea?

[rough basalt]

If your party throws a tantrum whenever they fail skill checks then you fudge their checks to succeed

[tall forge]

By your logic you also have no idea if fudging would make the game more or less fun

[atomic kayak]

Anyway this is one of my favorite reasons to hide dice rolls

Rolling behind a screen keeps the players guessing about the strength of their opposition. When a monster hits all the time, is it of a much higher level than the characters, or are you rolling high numbers

[faint thicket]

If the players finding out ruins it than it's a bad idea

[still plover]

If we're playing D&D at my table, we're rolling the dice. If you want something with more wiggle room there's Fate, Blades in the Dark, others.

[lavish flame]

Its pulling teeth with you people

[tall forge]

Nope, i think if you fudge and lie it should always be hidden forever

[frail wasp]

no, nobody has said that

[swift wren]

Depending on the table, rolling everything in the open is usually fine except for things like empathy, senses and similar.

[atomic kayak]

I think there are like, 3 people here saying that.

Especially when DM screens for the express purpose of keeping things hidden are such a common tool

[uncut zenith]

I see fudging rolls like telling a white lie. So long as nobody gets hurt from it, it’s not that big a deal

[abstract pumice]

You're looking at people and seeing them get genuinely frustrated and not having fun

[feral fulcrum]

...Who rolls for empathy?

[rough basalt]

Been in a game where a guy wouldn't stop openly fudging and it kept making people leave not surprisingly.

[frail wasp]

if the players find out who the bbeg is in session 0 it could ruin the bbeg, that doesn't make bbegs a bad idea

[crimson gulch]

ah i disagree with this one, i love it when the sudden realization hits them when i say "10 on the dice total of 27 to hit" that they are in trouble

[swift wren]

thats also some very tight rule systems; there are narrative games without dice :D Forsooth!, Wanderhome and similar :)

[tall forge]

Same. Its not fun if the illusion is shattered

[faint thicket]

Some of the most frustrating dungeons I have played were also my favorites because I freaking beat it

[abstract pumice]

Right but not everyone is you

[rough basalt]

I'd just rather there not be an illusion.

[crimson gulch]

like dark souls the video game!, i feel that

[crystal latch]

That and the actual die roll, modifier and all, will provide a more accurate description than words will of something the player characters literally see

[atomic kayak]

Incidentally, thats precisely not what the DMG says to do

that is the equivalent of the DM utilizing all sorts of tools poorly

[faint thicket]

If the illusion matters, than not making an illusion in the first place would be better

[tall forge]

I agree, but if a dm puts us against an unwinnable encounter or a cakewalk with no in-between? Id rather be lied to and never find out

[abstract pumice]

Its like how some people like Souls games for their difficulty and others don't.

[frail wasp]

all games are illusions

[pseudo solstice]

hey, anyone want to join a d&d group with my friends? need 2 ppl

[lavish flame]

By the same card, some of the most frustrating dungeons I've played through just sucked. This is when you might employ something like fudging die rolls

[rough basalt]

I'd rather die to an unwinnable encounter than be saved.

[frail wasp]

games are just math dressed up in words and pictures

[still plover]

Very gnostic.

[uncut zenith]

That being said, everybody runs their games differently, so if someone’s opposed to fudging at their tables, I’m not gonna give them a hard time over it either

[faint thicket]

If it's unbeatable run, if it's a cake walk, go to the next room

[frail wasp]

illusions are essential to the experience

[tall forge]

Up to you as a player, i want to play with my friends

[crimson gulch]

and on the oposite end if i sit down at a new table and things are being fudged, im getting up and walking away and giving them a hard time on the way out

[crystal latch]

The only necessary illusions are the spells of the illusion school

[tall forge]

And sometimes my players who try dming for the first time suck at encounter building

[faint thicket]

Next room in the dungeon, you aren't leaving the party

[atomic kayak]

Sure and thats valid. But in my experience, as both a DM and player, and from the vast majority of players ive had, they like the excitement of the unknown

Incidentally, another aspect the DMG talks about

A roll behind a screen can help preserve mystery. For example, if a player thinks there might be someone invisible nearby and makes a Wisdom (Perception) check, consider rolling a die behind the screen even if no one is there, making the player think someone is, indeed, hiding. Try not to overuse this trick.

[faint thicket]

Then he will never learn because he's using a crutch

[craggy summit]

fudging is sometimes essential as a DM. i rolled a nat 20 on a player that was level 1 and it DEFINITELY would've killed him (the average was more than double his HP) so I fudged it as a miss

[tall forge]

I learned just fine

[rough basalt]

I like being with my players.
When we both see that crit roll and see those damage dice roll into 3/4th of their hp bar, I wanna be with them in the sense of "this is what the world decided, your character slipped while attempting to dodge and took a brutal hit"

[crimson gulch]

the excitement of the unknown is compleated by the realization of discovery

[rough basalt]

If it's behind a screen I feel like there's always a level of "was that really the roll?"

[atomic kayak]

Fudging is simply a part of the bag of "the players don't know what the DM has cooking" tools

[tall forge]

Tbf you do have to hide some stuff on VTTs, like deception

[atomic kayak]

Yep! And the discovery is what you say at the end, not what got you there

[tall forge]

If players all see me roll deception 25 it sorta breaks the whole thing

[faint thicket]

Also rolling openly and not cheating, makes it easier to be on the player's side. Since both of you are trying to get through it

[crimson gulch]

100% this is huge

[rough basalt]

Ah I've never done this so

[crimson gulch]

i have killed 21 pc's this year and no one is mad about it because it all was rolled fair and in the open

[atomic kayak]

(One of my favorite things to do in tense moments occasionally is simply roll behind my screen for nothing. The simple act of rolling heightens it - can't do that with open rolls)

[tall forge]

Im a rp heavy campaign runner lol, had a lot of lying npcs

[atomic kayak]

You keep calling it cheating but cheating would mean its something against the rules - something it explicitly isnt lol

[rough basalt]

Oh I just have npcs lie and players can investigate their words if they want.

[uncut zenith]

Yeah it mostly comes down to reading the room and knowing your players

[tall forge]

None the less, once again, to each their own on fudging. You arent a bad dm for doing it

[crystal latch]

I've never had a PC actually die because 5e is really easy, but if I got killed by actual game mechanics it would be fine, whereas if I died to cheating I would just leave

[tall forge]

Youre learning and thats fine

[crimson gulch]

i still feel strongly that cheating is an apt word for it, regardless of what the DMG says

[swift wren]

Yes, but that is not the classic roll behind a gm screen, but smth that is interesting to do not in the open - the exeption to the rule.

[crimson gulch]

because you are cheating yourself of the experience of leaving it up to chance

[warm shore]

😭 what 5e are you playing man, either something else or my dm is jus evil cause someone’s always dying every other session for us

[south prawn]

Oh man the same argument persisting with all new people who have joined in haha

[uncut zenith]

I know I play with a lot of players who are very invested in their characters, so I don’t mind fudging to try and keep their characters alive within limits, but I also understand that’s not fun for everyone

[rough basalt]

And it can put your table in danger if you're not good at hiding it.

[tall forge]

Absolutely

[uncut zenith]

There’s no “one true way” to play

[frail wasp]

when people say it's cheating they don't mean 'cheating yourself', they mean 'cheating the table' :\

[faint thicket]

Also technically raw specific beats general, Everytime it tells you to roll, it's more specific and you have to roll

[marble lion]

Honestly it depends on the table

[tall forge]

The risk you take is your own when doing it, end of the day

[rough basalt]

Once you fudge that die.
You're playing Fudgepire: the Masquerade.
You can't let the public know you're a Fudgepire

[frail wasp]

nobodys getting riled up over the DM cheating themselves

[atomic kayak]

No more than you are cheating yourself by choosing what specific magic items a party gets instead of rolling on a table. Or by specifically choosing monsters rather than randomly rolling for them. Or specifically choosing when an encounter happens, rather than using a random encounter table.

[faint thicket]

I can share some encounters out games have if you want

[tall forge]

But if it works out, especially groups who dont like TPKing, its fun still

[warm shore]

I feel like I just don’t have a good frame of reference if every encounter my party’s had is overturned or not

[crimson gulch]

I disagree. If you chose to roll then roll, if you chose to decided then decided. these are very separate things. fudging a roll is making a roll and then deciding differently, but foregoing the roll is not cheating the dice.

[warm shore]

Is 15 frost giants for a level 8 party of 4 people too much?

[crystal latch]

Depends on your builds

For my party, probably not
For many others, likely yes

[tall forge]

Depends on a lot of stuff, but usually yes

[frail wasp]

now that's a light novel title

[faint thicket]

"Encounter – 6x Harrow Hound CR3, 2x Yochlol CR10, 3x Spiderdragon CR11, Undead Unicorn CR 5, Dullahan CR 10, Arasta CR 21, 2x Skeletal Knight CR7, 2x Warhorse Skeleton CR ½, Nightmare CR 3, 3x Demonfeed Spider CR 8, Grim Champion of Bloodshed CR 20"

Level 11

[tall forge]

Generally combat is more than the CR

[burnt valley]

depends on what encounters and homebrew bs they're using

[tall forge]

Or even the amount of monsters, its how the monsters are played, the environment, the builds of your party

[faint thicket]

Dah hell is happening to Vaunt

[rough basalt]

Like if we're using Magic items as an analogy.
Fudging attack rolls would be like fudging the magic item table whenever you roll an item the party can't use.
Difference is, you can be open about the magic item, but that attack roll? You better take it to your grave.

[atomic kayak]

One of the examples of a time I fudged is because of a scenario where the player, from nearly objective standpoint, was going to win and letting it go on was a massive waste of literally everyone's time.

Last player standing in a combat, one enemy left, literally one hit away from death. Both the player and the monster just kept missing every single attack. We wasted quite literally half an hour on it. Horrible experience

[crystal latch]

Frost giants are CR 8 bruisers, the scariest thing about them is their ability to throw a rock

[tall forge]

Also the 40 movement speed

[burnt valley]

Each one's like Deadly+ right?

[valid geyser]

Ok we are still talking about fudging

[crystal latch]

True but phantom steed still kites them

[warm shore]

I think my party got it good, nvm, yall are just suffering

[tall forge]

If theyre close, you arent getting away

[crimson gulch]

a one on one fight should go a lot faster, theres only two things rolling

[atomic kayak]

Yea, non monster elements do contribute to combat difficulty. And while its not super duper codified it is an element the books address

[crystal latch]

Pretty sure this was like 20+ times deadly

[rough basalt]

Fact they kept missing is hilarious

[atomic kayak]

Correct! It should.

Thats the issue

[crimson gulch]

i had a fight end in a TPK like that when it was down to the wire with one enemy and one player left

[burnt valley]

Spood

[atomic kayak]

It was funny for the first 6 rounds. It was significantly less funny after the 20th