dnd-discussion

[rough basalt]

Nah they're good

Bland but good.

[potent vector]

Okay*. Again, nothing they're better at than anyone else, but not gonna debate that again

[valid geyser]

rangers are better, but i think it swapped out "good at the uncommonly played wildnerness exploration stuff" to "mobile skill monkey" when i think people wanted more combat focused features

[potent vector]

That skill monkey stuff was from Tasha's, the little new things they did get was combat, but ganked by getting tied to HM.

[crystal latch]

2014 ranger was extremely underappreciated from the beginning, Tasha's was a placebo, 2024 was a huge nerfbat

[rough basalt]

You get PB bonus free casts so just use it whenever best

[valid geyser]

also people didnt like their subclasses got nerfed heavily. 2014 tried to balance ranger by giving them really strong subclasses, but they became terros for multiclass optimization

[prime basin]

Bruh

[potent vector]

Nahhhh, 2014 Ranger was for a game no one actually runs

[rough basalt]

2024 is just Tashas but better with the bloat removed

[jolly hound]

I just looked over it and it sounds cooooool cool.

[glass granite]

Oh yeah astral self is sick

[potent vector]

Flavor for 2014 is okay but mechanically terrible no dispute

[crystal latch]

2014 ranger was very much for a dungeon crawler game

[glass granite]

I also like mercy and ascendant dragon

[rough basalt]

Like Favored Foe was just Hunters Mark without calling it that.

[prime basin]

2024 is so focused on hunter's mark that the literal capstone of the class improves your damage output for hunters mark by 4 points at max

[valid geyser]

yeah 2024 ranger capstone is dumb

[potent vector]

Which Rogues were better at since they're better at skills and could skip survival stuff by just rolling well

[glass granite]

Yeah the capstone is awful, though otherwise is personally have no issue with 2024 Ranger

[rough basalt]

And your old capstone was Wis mod on one attack for damage.
So I'd take the potential for crit buffing over that

[prime basin]

Tasha's cauldron of everything had the best balance of an actually combat capable ranger and something with rp in it as well...

[crystal latch]

Ranger is/was better than rogue at stealth (PwT), damage and utility

[prime basin]

THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT GOOD

[rough basalt]

It's better

Also you can just ignore HM

[glass granite]

Both are bad, ones just the lesser evil

[potent vector]

If it was more than one attack 100% better, literally all that was stopping them from a decent fun capstone

[rough basalt]

I know a guy who does and it works pretty well

[potent vector]

Also, no they aren't, Reliable Talent

[prime basin]

Indeed, but the class is almost ENTIRELY focused around it, so it essentially forces you to focus around the spell as a whole if you want to use your class features

[valid geyser]

also just for a lot of people hunters mark kind of steps on their ability to use their good druid spells. People like divine smite because it's one and done and flashy

[rough basalt]

They kinda give you PB free casts cause they expect you to use other spells and HM when it's best or you want

[glass granite]

Pass without trace beats reliable talent for stealth any day, plus rangers have other spellcasting abilities that give their own utility

[prime basin]

The flavor and rp of the class has been sucked out completely in favor for a middling combat experience

[crystal latch]

Which specific defined application of which skill makes Reliable Talent comparable to the value of the good level 1-3 spells on the ranger spell list?

[rough basalt]

It's a pretty strong combat experience ime

Flavor can always be added by the player.

[severe rampart]

Love me some flavor

[glass granite]

I will say, I do consider Ranger the worst designed class in the 2024 rules, but I’m also completely fine with it

[rough basalt]

Flavor as features is what led to half the class not being used cause people are too lazy to run exploration rules

[prime basin]

divine smite is cool in 2014 and 2024, the problem with 2024 is that they required you to use a bonus action to use the spell...if they wanted to nerf it they should've just kept the ability and made it a once per turn thing

[potent vector]

The one where they just take Arcane Trickster, not that party Druid or Wizard wasn't already invalidating Ranger spellcasting anyway

[rough basalt]

Except now you can put Divine Smite into enspelled weapons since it's a spell so you can smite without spell slot uses now

[glass granite]

They allowed it to be used with thrown weapons, which is cool

[crystal latch]

Ranger's power comes from the fact that it's 80% of a fighter combined with 50% of a druid
People didn't know how to play fighter or druid, looked at the class and called it bad because of the glorified flavor text attached to its chassis

[rough basalt]

Also unarmed strikes

[valid geyser]

I can live with it honestly. I guess wotc figured rolling a nat 20 and then deciding to smite was a little too easy

[rough basalt]

And they buffed other spell smites by removing conc on most and other buffs

[potent vector]

It ain't laziness, Exploration is tedious, not the same as difficultly.

[rough basalt]

It's laziness let's be honest here

People ignore rules cause they don't want to track stuff in their funny dice game

[atomic kayak]

Yea 2024 ranger is just alt tashas. And still better than 2014. Yes even the capstone.

[crystal latch]

Ranger is the best weapon user even in a campaign where exploration doesn't exist
Ranger is the best weapon user even in a campaign where the DM arbitrarily gives rogues +50 trillion to Survival checks

[glass granite]

I’d say fighters and barbarians match them for most levels of play
Maybe through paladin in there too

[valid geyser]

numbers wise, I think it's fine. I just understand people disliking it from a fun factor aspect

[potent vector]

It ain't 80% Fighter, let alone 50% Druid, from just getting Extra Attack. No extra feats and no Action Surge meant you were outclassed completely.

[prime basin]

Indeed, but the ranger subclasses made up for the lack of actual combat features

[rough basalt]

Have you actually played high level with Rangers? In a proper ran game that is

[potent vector]

You're massively hand waiving the actual power level of 2014 Ranger

[potent vector]

Yes

[crystal latch]

50% the spellcasting of a druid is effectively 50% of the druid class
Level 6 and 14 bonus feats don't make up for no spellcasting on fighter

[atomic kayak]

despite being called a half caster (note: fan term), saying it has 50% of the spellcasting isn't very accurate

[potent vector]

No it isn't. Not when Ranger lacked so many actually good spells that were locked behind high level Druid.

And Ranger is stuck with Entangling Strike

[rough basalt]

Ranger had some specific spells druid didn't that are pretty good

[potent vector]

(Just use Entangle)

[crystal latch]

Ranger has Entangle

[atomic kayak]

this isn't to say ranger casting was bad or anything. Just that that isn't an accurate statement

[still plover]

Someone trying for a full house? It was martials versus casters earlier, now it's "Ranger Sucks!" "No it Doesn't!"?

[rough basalt]

Sometimes you're in a place too small for entangle to not bother your allies.

[prime basin]

so true, thats why they based 3 of the rangers class features off of one spell

[potent vector]

Like? SWS that wizard got 8 levels earlier?

[atomic kayak]

what do we want next. Alignment?

[glass granite]

We also had a very brief AI discussion earlier

[wanton sorrel]

chaotic evil!!!!

[atomic kayak]

functionwise its basically the same abilities it had before, just tied onto a core class feature.

[valid geyser]

i think rangers have a good spell list, but it can be an issue if someone feels like they have to cast HM over the rest of it because they want to be doing decent weapon damage

[woven flint]

I think Alignment is-!!!!

[rough basalt]

A spell you get PB free casts of cause you're supposed to use other spells

[crystal latch]

1sts- Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Absorb Elements, Entangle
2nds - Pass without Trace, Spike Growth
3rds - Conjure Animals

Up until this point the only things I'd really miss on a ranger compared to a druid are Sleet Storm and Healing Word

Hunter's Mark was always a trap, people came up with "why would you admit to this thought process" tier analysis based on the idea that you "had to" cast a spell that not only gave you negative DPR if you actually took feats to invest in weapon use but was also much worse than your other spells

[prime basin]

A spell you get free casts of that still costs concentraton and prevents an actually unique and good capstone feature from existing because they wanted to give you POTENTIALLY 4 more damage on each of your attacks

[crystal latch]

It could be considered mind-blowing rocket science by the standards of 2014 ranger takes that you can just not waste a spell known on Hunter's Mark and use your slots on something valuable

[north hawk]

... Several people are typing...

[atomic kayak]

I'm not sure how to take the claim that hunters mark as "negative dpr" seriously, even if you don't like the spell.

And thats ignoring the fact that the attitude of treating 5e (and most ttrpgs in general) as something to "solve" is... not the greatest

[rough basalt]

Ye cause without conc it'd go pretty insane, pretty sure the designers even stated they tested without conc it was too broken

[prime basin]

Too real

[crystal latch]

Imagine if wizard discourse was like "wizard is bad, you can't cast Hypnotic Pattern because you need to be concentrating on Witch Bolt"

[atomic kayak]

2024 capstone is still better than the 2014 one lol

[woven flint]

I always say
"Damage is Damage!"
Because ultimately what matters is being able do damage no matter how small it might be
Cause Everything pushes the progress bar 🧐

When I rolled shit?
"Hey! At least I did SOMETHING!"

[potent vector]

Vro, if they added non conc at the level they currently have the "no concentration break on HM", no tit ain't. Very tame

[valid geyser]

I don't know if I 100% trust wotc's word on whats broken or not but I could see it being really strong with multiclassing enabled

[potent vector]

And no one's gonna multiclass for that that late

[rough basalt]

Permanent advantage on all attacks and permanent extra d10 on all attacks after that?

[woven flint]

Damage go Brrr
But
PMA (Positive Mental Altitude) go BRRRRR

[crystal latch]

I would consider non-conc Hunter's Mark a hard sell to say the least

[rough basalt]

Now add that with magic weapons that add their own dice and whatnot

[valid geyser]

against a single enemy, something youd have to use your BA to activate probably wouldn't be uber broken

[potent vector]

Cleric gets Wish. D6 to d10 DMG isn't good no matter how hard you try to sell it.

[wanton sorrel]

speaking of dice my 7 set dice comes in 6 days from now.

[atomic kayak]

even aside from power level, non conc HM would simply go against the general design patterns of the game fairly dramatically

[prime basin]

The problem with hunter's mark isn't that it exists, its that the class is over reliant on it to the point where the character is punished for not only using it, but also not using it. If you don't use it in favor of better concentration spells, you lose 3 of your class features that focus around it. If you do use it, you use 3 of your class features but you can't use higher leveled/better concentration spells

[rough basalt]

Wish once per 2d4 days

[atomic kayak]

The vast majority of ongoing effects in the game are conc (especially spells)

[prime basin]

WHAT?

[rough basalt]

Vs 1 hour of permanent advantage and extra non-resisted damage. 6 free times a day

[potent vector]

Yeah, it's pretty fun

[atomic kayak]

but yea if ranger didn't get so many free casts of HM I would at least understand people's issues with it more. But. It does get them.

[prime basin]

every 2d4 days? My ranger always gets potentially 4 extra damage for every attack at level 20!

[burnt valley]

Hell on earth

[rough basalt]

Hey that's a high potential of 6 extra damage since advantage

[prime basin]

This cleric can only wish to obliterate the opposition every 2d4 days?

[rough basalt]

You'd lose the ability to cast wish if kept wishing that. Also wish sickness

[valid geyser]

divine intervention doesnt play with normal wish rules, but thats also a use of wish thats DM fiat rules so its not 100% reliable

[rough basalt]

Also who knows whatll happen if you wish for that.

[prime basin]

The capstone is absolute trash

[potent vector]

Tbf optimally you only use Wish to copy 8th level or lower spells.

[crystal latch]

2014 ranger is the best weapon user because Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter Gloom Stalker can pull out raw damage numbers that give it a place in highop while also providing the party with goodberries and Pass without Trace, Spike Growth when needed
But from online discourse you would think that WOTC is holding your cat hostage to force you to allocate spell slots to a worse bonus action than the CBE bonus attack and Favored Enemy/Terrain give you a -10 penalty to all d20 rolls when not interacting with a specific creature or terrain type

[north hawk]

Maybe I'm naive, but a 1d6 on each attack doesn't seem too game breaking without concentration. But I'm sure there are some multiclass builds that would love taking a dip in Ranger for that.

[rough basalt]

He said obliterate the opposition not replicate.

[woven flint]

I think thats untrue
I'm in a party with a Ranger who NEVER uses hunters mark and frankly, doesn't struggle without it
Given, we are Higher level and he's a Beast Master, but I think the biggest problem about Hunters Mark is that it actively provides nothing but Damage until higher levels or Niche subclass uses where you want to have it up at all times.
Which is boring
If it's gonna be a class core, I think it should be a bit more interesting

I've learned to appreciate ranger a bit, though despite it, I love Skill enjoyer classes

[potent vector]

Using a subclass to justify a class not having issues is flawed at best

The strong subclasses shouldn't have to fix the weak base class

[valid geyser]

because if youre casting wish from slots you have a chance of losing wish permanently
if youre not using it with slots you're fine
but also, it is just once per 2d4 days

[crystal latch]

Ranger is good even without Gloom, it's simply worse than it is with its best subclass

I would rather have a subclassless ranger than any fighter subclass in my party

[potent vector]

But again. What can it do that another class can't do better?

[woven flint]

That is... a take?

[potent vector]

Yeah nah, this fanatascism

[hidden spindle]

Cast Hunter's Mark for free more than once

[crystal latch]

Role compression of massive nova DPR and low-level druid utility stuff

[potent vector]

"massive" when Paladin is right there . . .

[atomic kayak]

well thats not ranger generically then. Thats gloomstalker specifically

[valid geyser]

i dont know if i agree rangers without 2014 subs got nova DPR

[crystal latch]

Paladin DPR is not high

[potent vector]

You said Nova not DPR

[woven flint]

2014 Paladin: "Hold my Ale."

[glass granite]

Divine bonks

[burnt valley]

Counterpoint: M*lee and just assumes you crit

[woven flint]

Why do people Censor Melee?
That's stupid 😭

[potent vector]

Ranged Ranger is also weaker than Fighter with a bow

[burnt valley]

Its offensive

[woven flint]

How???

[crystal latch]

3 crossbow shots and 8 animals > 4 crossbow shots actually

[prime basin]

Literally all it does at higher levels is give you advantage on attacks against the specific creature you cast it on, improve potential dpr by 4 on every attack, and it removes the ability from losing concentration by damage (this doesn't include things like conditions or specific abilities/spells that can cause a creature to lose concentration)

[valid geyser]

oh, i see. your argument hinges on 2014 conjure animals

[prime basin]

Melee comes off as offensive to most spellcasters because they can't do it successfully

[potent vector]

Which is high DM fiat . . .

[crystal latch]

+10 to Stealth means your party will also surprise most enemies even if they roll terribly on Stealth, surprise is better partywide Action Surge

[potent vector]

Surprise . . .

[woven flint]

... I know that?
Thats why I'm complaining about how Bland Hunters Mark is

[potent vector]

Rly. We're using surprise cheese

[valid geyser]

and reliant on surprise. which is also DM fiat

[crystal latch]

Pass without Trace with 2014 surprise is powerful enough to be a 9th level spell

[prime basin]

Why did you say my point isn't true then?

[potent vector]

Is this Ragebait

[timid current]

Spoken like someone who hasn't played with any of the horde of "creative" hexblades, bladesingers, artificers who melee just fine without any kind of build variation/deviation from building just a full caster

[prime basin]

notice how i said most spellcasters

[potent vector]

Bard giving Rogue minimum 22, average 27 Stealth anyway:

[woven flint]

Because Ranger doesn't have to be overreliant on Hunters Mark to function

[burnt valley]

A summon does it better than any martial class (Barlguras)

[crystal latch]

Barlguras are indeed more cost-effective than barbarians

[valid geyser]

a barlgura? from summon demon? the spell that can very easily turn against you?

[prime basin]

I'm unsure what you mean but when I say that the ranger is overreliant I mean the class, not the character itself

[crystal latch]

There is a very simple observation to be made with Summon Greater Demon that negates the "the demon can turn against you" issue

[woven flint]

These takes are abysmal

Let me summon an evil entity that can turn against me instead of having a chill Barbarian friends always

[prime basin]

the ranger getting a buff to hunter's mark would be cool but that should happen way earlier when it is still relevant and only for like 1 feature

[potent vector]

But yeah, your view assumes DMs will bend over backwards to let 2014 shine. Still have not named smth someone else can't do better . . .

Druid has PwT too

[valid geyser]

yeah, because killing a humanoid every day to make the 10 foot circle for your entire party to stand in is always feasible and doesnt put them in any danger at all

[crystal latch]

Druid is obviously better than ranger, it's literally a fullcaster
Doesn't mean ranger isn't good

[woven flint]

That's something I'll agree with

[crystal latch]

Wrong observation

[woven flint]

Ranger IS still a good class

[burnt valley]

"Read the following contract thoroughly and follow it to your utmost ability" (There's a google doc for this contract)

[crystal latch]

I would rank ranger at 7th best class in 2014 (there are six fullcasters)

[potent vector]

Again, not saying it's absolutely in the trenches, but I'm saying it is undoubtedly the worst class in the game.

[crystal latch]

Not Planar Binding

[prime basin]

in terms of classes for this edition, ranger is the worst

[potent vector]

Vro, there is no shot

[burnt valley]

Ah i see

[prime basin]

im not saying it's horrible or anything, just saying its the worst

[halcyon bison]

oh wow Barlguras have 9 charisma
that's baaaaad

[potent vector]

Paladin has one of the best base class features in the game in Aura of Protection

[valid geyser]

are you talking about a charisma save then? like yeah it has a -1 but its still got like a 25% chance to get out of it when the DC is on the lower side, also these arguments always seem to forget how easy it is to drop concentration

[rough basalt]

AoP is eh.
Players will always choose to roll under what the bonus can help them at or save anyway /j

[crystal latch]

My general class ranking for 2014 is
Wizard
Warlock or Druid
Druid or Warlock
Sorcerer
Bard or Cleric
Cleric or Bard
[big gap]
Ranger
UA mystic
Paladin
Artificer
[big gap]
Monk (gun)
Fighter
Rogue
Barbarian
Monk (melee)

[potent vector]

Eh. AoP is eh.

You have to be ragebaiting

[prime basin]

Best to worst or Worst to best

[atomic kayak]

this goes back to the "theres a number of problems with trying to treat 5e (and ttrpgs in general) as something that can be ""solved"""

[prime basin]

either way ALOT of people will disagree with you

[crystal latch]

I am referring to the fact that you will naturally want to position it in melee with the enemies, when/if it breaks loose it will target the nearest enemy

[potent vector]

Okay, yeah, I invalidate your opinion in my head Mystic was OP my guy

[burnt valley]

Ohhh so that's what its for, I see

[rough basalt]

/j means joking

[wanton sorrel]

What is a UA Mystic????

[prime basin]

Unearthed Arcana class, as far as I know it isn't an officially recognized class just one you can use

[potent vector]

There's no /j there

[rough basalt]

Was a very broken psionics class that was originally gonna be in the 2014 PHB but it was better than every class at everything

[woven flint]

Mystic could literally fulfill any role and was so Broken it was shelved

[halcyon bison]

What does monk (gun) mean?

[rough basalt]

Go check again, it's there.

[crystal latch]

Tasha's gave monk several features that made it really good at using a gun

[woven flint]

At the very end

[wanton sorrel]

oh that makes sense

[valid geyser]

i wouldnt bet on it

[potent vector]

Oh I meant for the list lol, not the AoP, I noticed

[rough basalt]

Ah makes sense

[crystal latch]

Mystic isn't better than a regular wizard, its "spells" are weaker than equivalent-cost/level wizard spells and its scaling almost falls on its face after level 10

[woven flint]

Again, Mystic was shelved because of how busted it was

[rough basalt]

Mystic was so OP they shelved it and haven't considered a Psionics class for 5e which is a staple for dnd editions till 2025

[potent vector]

And yet apparently Ranger is better

[crystal latch]

Mystic was not OP, they were dumb

[halcyon bison]

What was the deal with Mystic? I never read most of the 2014 UAs

[potent vector]

Let me fetch it for you

[rough basalt]

King of All Trades

[valid geyser]

yeah it was trying to be every single psionic archetype at once

[potent vector]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf

Here^

[potent vector]

And 2014 Ranger is apparently better . . . I'm traumatized vro . . .

This is a horror story 😭

[timid current]

Somehow still more balanced, restrained, and easy to use than kibbles' psion

[crystal latch]

Compared to 5e fullcasters, mystic lacks

• a way to exert a longer-duration influence on the world (most of its stuff is either a self buff or a short duration)
• anything on the level of the good control spells on the wizard list
• subclasses anywhere near the level of Chronurgy, War, Abjuration, I could name several others

You have no psionic equivalent of Animate Dead

[valid geyser]

i can tell you think summons are pretty good

[crystal latch]

You have no psionic equivalent of Mind Blank
You have no psionic Tiny Hut
You have no psionic Simulacrum

[wanton sorrel]

lol... such a weird class.

[atomic kayak]

Or most (popular) homebrew classes out there tbh

[crystal latch]

Mystic scales by getting a new "spell level" every two class levels like fullcasters and if you compare total resource expenditure over a day you will be able to cast a similar number of spells to a fullcaster, but your spells are weaker and you don't get 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells so the class effectively only has 10 levels

[atomic kayak]

"only 10 levels" yikes

[burnt valley]

I love how some people just outright have no arguments besides "because it's busted" without providing reasons as to why

[woven flint]

I've learned to ignore opinions I think are ludicrous just now
I have ascended /silly

[potent vector]

Order of the Wu Jen gets Wizard spells

[timid current]

No you can't use evidence when someone is outlining corner cases to make a point

[prime basin]

hunter's mark without concentration isn't busted if you reduce the total time you can have the spell active for. Change my silly mind.

[woven flint]

How about you Optimize your characters backstory!
Lightning Strikes and Spooky Music

[crystal latch]

Wu jen is indeed the best mystic because it gets to choose a total of three spells from the wizard spell list

[halcyon bison]

oh wow this thing scales really weirdly

[crystal latch]

Don't ask how many wizard spells the wizard class gets

[potent vector]

Because it makes the Ranger issue apply to every class. It steps on every class's toes while being better than them at those things and being able to have access to multiple at the same time no matter what build you take

[valid geyser]

i guess we just have to ask from what angle were comparing something too

[potent vector]

Imagine Wizard's niche of being versatile but being able to reach into every class's pockets instead of spells.

[atomic kayak]

Bit of a moot point to establish when some people are treating a ttrpg as something that can be "solved"

[valid geyser]

like, would concless HM be busted if our level of busted is simulacrum or forcecage? probably not, but if we wanna compare it to stuff in its corner like barbarian rage and smiting paladins then its an argument we can actually reasonably debate on

[woven flint]

"I'mma steal yo class abilities!"

Drains your character identity

[crystal latch]

Mystic doesn't surpass any class at its job and its versatility is heavily overhyped

[potent vector]

I meant the issue O have with Ranger, which is not being better than anyone at anything, because this class is better at everything

[woven flint]

No, that's just a thought the popped into my head and found funny
Just imagine a guy that touches you and becomes your class lmao

"Give me YOU!"

[prime basin]

Sounds like rogue from x-men

[potent vector]

Forgive my lack of more intelligent synthesis, I'm at a loss with this level of disbelief

[woven flint]

We love Rogue, she's a sweetheart :>

With a terrifying power

Ohimbouttamakeanamefomyself

[prime basin]

Shoutout to my bayou brother

[woven flint]

That's what I'm sayin'!

[prime basin]

Imagine being killed by a magic card

[timid current]

Hey fella, this is d&d server

[prime basin]

Sir, you've joined the wrong server

[woven flint]

Imagine being killed by a guy who thinks the name Gambit is cool /joking

[near karma]

It's a bot

[woven flint]

Gambit vs Hikari from JJK
Who folds first?

On another note, there's an Official Item called the "Fate Dealers Deck" somewhere, I just forgot where it's from

[prime basin]

I know, but i still wanted to reply

[near karma]

Mystic wasn't op. People just didn't actually read the playtest and instead relied on DnD Shorts to tell them it was too good.

[atomic kayak]

god, imagine if dnd shorts was around back then. I am glad that was not the case

DnD Youtube was. Very very niche still around the time of the mystic UA

[prime basin]

Can't gambit like literally just dissolve people?

[near karma]

Oh DnD Shorts wasn't around then? I remember watching his video on Mystic but ig that was afterwards

[crystal latch]

The mainstream consensus having the wrong take on 5e optimization/power levels yet again
Happens every time tbh

[near karma]

It's been a while so I might have mixed up the timeline.
But I do remember people online saying mystic op without knowing anything about the class

[woven flint]

I was just being funny, I only know slightly more about Gambit than I do Hikari which is very little

[potent vector]

Soooo you haven't read the class either?

[near karma]

What?

[timid current]

It wasn't overpowered in a spike sense, it was overpowered in that it could do just about anything

[potent vector]

Have you played it?

The class?

[prime basin]

BRO YOU HAVE TO PLAY THE CLASS TO KNOW IF ITS OP OR NOT!

[potent vector]

Mg bruhhhhhhh. . . .

[near karma]

I have read it and compared it to other classes

It's pretty clear

[burnt valley]

RPGBot, MonkeyDM and DnD shorts is one of the most egregious ones

[timid current]

Please stop the caps buddy, lots of us did

[potent vector]

Vro this AIN'T THE SAME

[prime basin]

I'm not saying mystic is op, but that mindset doesn't mean anything really

[halcyon bison]

Who here has played it, out of curiosity?

[burnt valley]

I had the unfortunate mistake of actually following RPGBot when i started out last year

[potent vector]

I haven't played it to late game, stopped around level 8

[crystal latch]

I read the mystic class in full, attempted to write homebrew buffs for it, DMed for it and played in hyper-optimized games where it was allowed and none of us chose to take it because it sucked

[timid current]

The mysticism problems started with trying to do three or four disparate flass fantasies in a single class

[halcyon bison]

I'm also curious how often people here actually use UAs in general

[near karma]

"class A does 10 damage and nothing else"
"class B does 20 damage and nothing else"

this is massively simplified ofc but you don't need to actually play it to realize that B is better than A

Online you'd see people saying stuff like "this is a wizard but better"
Then you look at WuJen
"3 wizard spells"

Three. Like lmao

[timid current]

Not that it did the most damage per hogshead or whatever the optimization crowd measures a class on

[potent vector]

Vro, read the base class stuff, if that's where you think the power is this is why you don't realize it's busted

Disciplines

[near karma]

Tell me, what's so busted on the base class? I don't see anything busted

[potent vector]

That Disciplines can do any class's job

[near karma]

oh no this class has variety

It's not overpowered in any role.

[valid geyser]

i do think there is a point to made where people dont weight spells and class features on the same pedestal, so people can claim class features as broken easier than spells

[crystal latch]

The optimization community generally looks at a wide variety of criteria when evaluating classes, methodologies differ from optimizer to optimizer ofc. I tend to compare its overall performance - number of party roles (actual 5e party roles, not "MMO trinity" slop) it is able to fill, resource efficiency, value as a dip, what it wants to multiclass into

[near karma]

less variety than a fullcaster mind you

[atomic kayak]

This definitely is the case

[wanton sorrel]

can a dungeon master play with 24 players?

[crimson gulch]

Yeh, I have 50

[crystal latch]

For example, a 5th-level CL fathomless warlock (always assuming either Moderately Armored or a 1-level cleric dip because medium armor is essential) can simultaneously fill party roles such as

• difficult terrain printer (high priority)
• line of sight blocker (high priority)
• initiative booster, Gift of Alacrity via Fey-touched on a class with short rest slots
• forced movement (at will, Repelling Blast, and PB encounters/day with tentacle)
• speed reduction (at will, Lance of Lethargy)
• familiar user (important for low-value actions that add up to a lot, like Help/placing ball bearings, among other things - Pact of the Chain)

[near karma]

at the same time? No. In a westmarch? Sure, with some other DMs. You can't run a normal campaign though obviously

[valid geyser]

to me it kind of seems like youre trying to end the discussion by saying "well it doesnt matter anyway" which i don't think is helpful at all

[atomic kayak]

Only because people are already being aggressive and rude (on both ends) and its not going to be a productive conversation

[wraith kelp]

i made another character for dnd

[jovial shadow]

Not all at once. That's counter productive

[wanton sorrel]

ok

[valid geyser]

notice how "kill it until it dies" isnt here

[potent vector]

True, but I'm already done trying to see this from their perspective, so we can call it.

What do y'all think Abt the new Vestige Warlock?

[valid geyser]

i kind of agree this convo isnt going anywhere anymore, but i felt like the comment just deemed any form of analysis on mechanics not worthwhile

[valid geyser]

it lets warlocks actually use summon spells at the later levels which is nice. and the cleric sub spell list thing is neat

[crystal latch]

EBARB is there for that too, but I don't really consider something as filling the role of "big damage dealer" unless it can go way beyond that, my standard at this level would be something along the lines of 24+ DPR vs AC 15 over the course of an 8-encounter day (4 rounds/encounter)

[near karma]

HoH is good for damage

[crystal latch]

True, it does have really good chip damage

[glossy narwhal]

I have a question regarding leather armour. All I need is a yes or no. If that's cool with you guys?

[vale sage]

im trying to think of silly animals that could be shifters

[loud tendon]

If we can answer with a yes or no, i am sure we can try to help

[glossy narwhal]

Can the shoulder pads be layered? Kinda like pieces of leather overlapping each other to form a shoulder pad?

[still plover]

Hah, yes.

What do I win?

[remote wadi]

So, is there a class that could benefit from Heavy Armor, but doesn't benefit from stealth?

[glossy narwhal]

Was that a yes to my question? Sorry. I am a little tired. It's been a long day for me

[karmic pendant]

Fighters, certain clerics,and paladins are the usual people you see with heavy armor

[prime basin]

Yes, as long as its just leather

[timid current]

Stealth can be useful for everyone

[timid current]

Yes, armor basically can look however you want it to

[loud tendon]

Adding to this point - it's not like that would apply any other armor benefit. Its just flavor on how it looks

[timid current]

You might have some back and forth with your dm if it doesn't necessarily fit the vibe of the campaign but there are no rules dictating the appearance of armor

[steel moth]

flavor is free

[wanton sorrel]

if only heavy armor was made of silk.

[glossy narwhal]

It is just leather. But I looked into studded leather armour too for my character. Maybe to add some panache

[karmic pendant]

Would it still be heavy armor at that point?

[rough basalt]

ye flavor is free as long as the intention isnt to try and get more defense out of it for free

[prime basin]

why not just go with studded leather armor instead of leather? More expensive?

[wanton sorrel]

i don't know???? full silk heavy armor??? not sure??

[still plover]

I'd say it's more specifically useful on certain builds, like the rogue assassin. Using stealth to gain surprise and have a better chance of beating the target on initiative, as well as the possible advantage from unseen attacker.

[glossy narwhal]

I'm not looking for extra benefits. I just always found the layered shoulder pads cool.

[loud tendon]

Then, sure.. unless your DM ,for some weird reason, says no..

[timid current]

Okay. And yet; stealth can be useful for literally any class. It's okay to not correct an already correct statement

[celest sail]

How’s 2024 Gloom Stalker and Ranger overall in everybody’s experiences?

[still plover]

An elaboration rather than a correction, but I take your point.

[wanton sorrel]

i don't know. I've never made a gloom stalker yet

[glossy narwhal]

I'm just experimenting with different designs. I sorta got inspired by The Lord of the Rings movies [specifically The Two Towers, which I'm currently watching]. Which is why I asked about the layered leather armour. Because Legolas wears some during the Battle of Helm's Deep, and it's pretty cool looking.

[celest sail]

i keep thinking about it but the discourse around the entire class is lots of doom and gloom (no pun intended) then again there’s more to DnD than combat so it seems really cool

not sure why but i’ve always been into casters and then one day i looked at the edgy ranger subclass and i went “yes, i want that”

[prime basin]

Legolas is pretty dope, just make sure the class you are using gets access to/can buy that armor to begin with

besides that you can make your armor look as whatever you wish pretty much

[glossy narwhal]

And coincidently enough, my character happens to be an Elf. A High Elf Bladesinger/Artificer. Which is why I asked specifically about the leather armour

[minor lake]

Gloomstalker is great and the first round attack actually pops off if you play it right

I'm playing one rn and with Hunters Mark, Zephyr Strike & Dread Ambusher I was able to 1 hit kill a goblin for 25 dmg

Thinking of multiclassing him as a cleric to make him a full caster but they also multiclass really well with rogue

& I'm using 2024 rules. Even with the nerf, gloomstalker still hits hard

[hardy token]

I’m new to dnd don’t know the rules or anything can someone help me out I want to get into it

[minor lake]

Check out #learn-to-play , there's also a free list of rules in there somewhere

[hardy token]

Can I play online or do I have to get the board ?

[minor lake]

You can play online!

[crimson gulch]

online or in person works well

[minor lake]

The only equipment you really need are dice & a character sheet and even those can be virtual
Maybe a pen and paper

[celest sail]

that’s awesome! does it fall off as hard as people say it does at later levels? though i don’t think it will be a problem for me if the “fall off” isn’t so dramatic that i’m completely useless, as long as i’m bringing value to the table and able to fulfill a fun class fantasy i’m happy lol

[hardy token]

can I be like a goblin or an orc ?

[minor lake]

I think it more stagnates than falls off around lvl 7-9, you start out as a really strong damage build but get outpaced pretty quickly, I think that's why so many people recommend the multiclass after lvl 5

At lvl 5 you get multiattack and then it's kinda boring until like lvl 11

[minor lake]

Yeah you can be an orc or a half-orc, I don't think there's an official race for goblin but plenty of people have made their own version

Goblins are in the game so it's not super hard to create a character as one

That one you should probably discuss with your dm tho

[hardy token]

how do I find a game

[minor lake]

#find-a-game

Or if you have friends who might be interested you could recruit them

I prefer in person but they're harder to put together

[celest sail]

that’s unfortunate, i really like the idea of monoclass because i want to get the full flavor of a particular class, do you think it can still keep up?

[hardy token]

ngl im the only person out of my friends who would like some like this

There all call of duty and 2k junkies I just wanna try something new and it seems fun honestly

[minor lake]

Yeah it's not the worst I'd say it starts at like an A, 7-11 is like a C+ and then onwards it's like an A-, B

I'd say it's an A tier class overall

It also gets a bunch of noncombat buffs like umbral sight

If you can stay in the dark you'll be S tier

What you could do as well is take the multiclass but still roleplay it like a straight ranger

[celest sail]

are u in school or college? chances are there’s a club of people interested in DnD i’m boutta start playing next week cause i attended a meeting and found a DM looking for players

[minor lake]

I think you'll be fine as a straight gloomstalker

They're never bad they just could be better at mid level

A friend of mine did a strahd campaign as a straight gloomstalker and he did great

[celest sail]

that’s a relief, i saw some pretty dramatic “LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE” sentiments on like youtube and reddit and frankly being stronger than an undying warlock is more than enough lol

[minor lake]

Yeah the power gamers hate it but it's really not bad

Just focus on that first attack burst and you'll do numbers

[hallow ember]

Me and my hb accidentally predicted the new grim hollow book

[celest sail]

my first experience with an RPG was skyrim so stealth ambush archers have a solid place in my heart

[minor lake]

Yeah that's a really good point if u build behind your archery it will help a lou

[minor lake]

same that's why I was thinking gloomstalker rogue for a while bc a few levels in rogue can help that ambush attack a lot

But again if you just wanna straight gloomstalker you'll be good

Rogues can sneak attack from ranged in 2024, right?

Maybe I'm thinking of another edition i remember one of them it had to be a melee

Hellll ya that's why I'm going druid after lvl 5

I'm so hype I've never played a full spellcaster

[minor lake]

Gloomstalkers also get a lvl 1 s spell called fog cloud that is super helpful for staying hidden

If you ever need to dip just throw a smoke bomb like batman lol

[celest sail]

they get spike growth too at some point right? i like the sound of that spell

[minor lake]

I think so yeah
I know for sure they get ensnaring strike

Which is like spiky vines

That can be helpful too bc not only do they take damage from the vines every turn but bc they're immobilized your friends get advantage on every attack

[celest sail]

that sounds sweet

[minor lake]

I think it requires concentration tho so I don't think you can attack them?

I don't remember exactly

[celest sail]

i’m really starting to appreciate martials as i get older because my childhood fantasy archetypes were always flashy casters, something about being able to tell a story with just you and the environment is really appealing

[minor lake]

Yeah i highly recommend gloomstalker im loving it

[potent vector]

Yeah, they can also advantage for free as a BA if they don't move more than 15ft

[minor lake]

Dude same watching our lvl 3 fighter absolutely tank 6 enemies and then just using Second Wind and going to TOWN is frankly inspiring

[potent vector]

I believe they added that in Tasha's 2014, no?

[minor lake]

WAIT FOR REAL

like on any enemy??

That's so dope I didn't know that

[minor lake]

Every Legolas needs a Gimli

[potent vector]

(also, ye, they're right, even tho it's the worst class it isn't actually bad per se, just relatively weaker)

Any doom and gloom is from disappointment on what coulda been (not genuine belief it's bad)

[celest sail]

my appreciation for fighters and rangers have gone up a lot over the years, i was originally like “ew boring warrior and stupid archer” but that’s really changed

[halcyon bison]

I really like battle master, probably one of my favorite subclasses in the game just for how much customization it has

[minor lake]

I've kinda had the reverse happen where I thought playing a caster looked like a headache and too much to remember but the more I have been playing recently the more confident and excited I am to play a caster

[celest sail]

i heard a lot of stuff surrounding hunter’s mark being a poorly thought out design choice, but some people say numbers wise rangers aren’t actually that far behind

[potent vector]

Yeah, pretty much

[minor lake]

I think having hunters mark always equipped and not costing a spell slot is actually great

[potent vector]

Boring, and worse, not bad

[minor lake]

Although I do miss the favored foe from 2014 which was broken

[potent vector]

The issue is opportunity cost, conc locks you out of all the other fun stuff that's supposed to come with having spellcasting

[minor lake]

Oh truuuu

Yeah it really is like half martial half spells but without the coolest parts of both

[potent vector]

Someone gets my grief 😭

Paladin doesn't have this issue

[minor lake]

that's why I'm going gloomstalker druid!

[minor lake]

Interesting
I've never played one

What do you think is the worst dnd class

[potent vector]

2014 or 2024

[minor lake]

24

I've heard glamour bard is really fun and funny but not that effective

[potent vector]

Ranger, behind Barbarian imo

[minor lake]

Awww :( why?

[minor lake]

Fair

[fair plinth]

Whats wrong with barbarian

[near karma]

it's one of the better bards

[potent vector]

I only dispute Barb being worse because of the buffed Utility of using Strength for check in combat and their high value early game

[halcyon bison]

I'm definitely going to play a glamor bard at some point, I love the flavor on it and command as a bonus action seems really fun if your DM lets you do custom commands
Even if it's not that effective, it's still a bard which is a perfectly good class on it's own

[potent vector]

It's pretty rigid in what it can do

[minor lake]

Bro there's a charm spell for glamour bard that requires you to dance for 10 uninterrupted minutes and every time I picture using that I laugh so so hard

"WATCH ME! MAKE SURE HE'S WATCHING ME!"

No music

[potent vector]

Oh, btw, they're actually pretty good. Specifically because they give like, ridiculous amounts of temp HP for a low cost

[minor lake]

Oooo
Everyone I've talked to about it said they switched back to swords but that was probably a comfort/ familiarity thing

[limber trail]

I DM for a glamour bad. It's a real good subclass. Tons of fun.

[celest sail]

side note the art for 2024 glamour bard is sick

[limber trail]

the temp HP is so good

[halcyon bison]

The auto-fail on command against charmed creatures is very nice combined with beguiling magic, and the 14th level feature is really nice too if you reach that level

[proper shoal]

I love playing a stupid barbarian, it's hard for me to not tell people to not do something stupid which makes it fun af

He's chaotic good, because he means well but isnt very good at being gentle

[halcyon bison]

It would be funny to combo Glamor bard with the 7th level feature of fey wanderer ranger, but that might be too big of a level investment

[proper shoal]

Being a 7'6" orc and all

[potent vector]

"You can weave fey magic into a song or dance to fill others with vigor. As a Bonus Action, you can expend a use of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die. When you do so, choose a number of other creatures within 60 feet of yourself, up to a number equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). Each of those creatures gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to two times the number rolled on the Bardic Inspiration die, and then each can use its Reaction to move up to its Speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks."

That's max 5d12 x 2 Temp HP per Bardic. Which you get 5 of, get back on a Short Rest, AND can burn spell slots for

For reference 7th level spell power word Fortify gives 120 temp HP, that's possible between 2 to 3 bardic dice with this.

[halcyon bison]

Plus everyone can reposition if they want :>

[limber trail]

fantastic defense, fantastic enemy control

awesome subclass

[limber trail]

it's also not a spell so it can't even be counterspelled or anything, unlike pwf

[potent vector]

Prob my favorite Bard, tho Creation holds a special place in my heart.

[rugged hawk]

I agree, everyone needs an armrest servant.

[halcyon bison]

Creation bard is incredible! There's so many creative (pun intended) things you can do with it
I really need to play bard again

[proper shoal]

If I had any ability to create anything remotely musical I'd be a bard

My brains goes mushy when I need to think of anything that rhymes

A bard that's a failing musician could be a good concept tho

[halcyon bison]

You can do other forms of art too! Like painting or dancing

[proper shoal]

A starving artist bard would be good aswell

[halcyon bison]

I really like unconventional bards

[proper shoal]

I come up with character concepts, it's an issue because it makes me want to play different characters lmao

[halcyon bison]

You could do acrobatics, martial ARTs, practical magic (like card tricks, stuff you could do in real life), fashion...

[proper shoal]

I was thinking a funny character would be a Goliath that's really big and bulky, everyone expects them to be a barbarian but instead they're a vegan druid

[knotty pasture]

Tree trunks for arms

[empty thicket]

or a rogue, no one expect you to be saw

[proper shoal]

Thatd be good

[paper wyvern]

its that time again, time to find a new game to join :/

[proper shoal]

I imagined it like a skit where someone went to jail and heard you had to beat up the biggest person there and the biggest person was a gentle giant

[severe rampart]

Something happened with your old group?

[paper wyvern]

yeh, we had a problem player who was the DM's friend of years, and he just refused to deal with it, instead told me and another player who complained to mute the problem player

[severe rampart]

Well time to find a new game

[paper wyvern]

like yeh no im good

[paper wyvern]

gives me reason to try make a necromancer work

[potent vector]

Homebrew or with official stuff? (Also, 2024 or 2014?)

[tulip canopy]

Evening gentlemen

[tulip canopy]

Bob the Necromancer

[paper wyvern]

im thinking using a necromancer class i found, i dont feel offcial materian will ever make a necromancer feel liek a necromancer

[potent vector]

Ah

[paper wyvern]

comes with some thematic spells like "raise mount"

[limber trail]

there's an official necromancer wizard subclass and a handful of other official subclasses based on the general idea

[paper wyvern]

im fully aware, i still stand on my opinion that they dont really feel like a necromancer to me

[potent vector]

Yeahhhhh, necromancer 2014 ain't great. Unless you mean the recent-ish UA

[tulip canopy]

Do they allow you to carry out an unboxing on a grave

[potent vector]

Hm, can't actually remember how long ago that UA was

[hushed mason]

Have you ever read the 3.5e Dread Necromancer class?

[paper wyvern]

3.5 i never played so no

[hushed mason]

You should have a look. It's probably the best under the "necromancer" category.

It's in a book called Heroes of Horror.

[paper wyvern]

i found a fun homebrew one but ill have alook

what stat are they using for casting?

[hushed mason]

Charisma

[slate crown]

Am I allowed to post character art if I got it commissioned and pinged the creator? Don't want to get in trouble

[hushed mason]

There's a channel for that: #dnd-arts-and-crafts

[slate crown]

Ik but that's for people to post their own art and stuff which is why I was asking

[hushed mason]

Ohhh

[vale seal]

I've got a question and it's something worrying me, I recently got into DND and have most the 2024 rules but I'm worried they'll release 6e soon and all the money I'll have spent on 5.5e will be wasted. So what are the chances of 6e being released?

[rough basalt]

I'd say slim, at least for awhile, but there's been nothing confirmed said for the future yet
And they wouldnt be wasted cause you can still play 5e

[hidden spindle]

Not for awhile I'd wager

Besides, even stuff a '6e', 5e will still exist

[rough basalt]

Unless the stuff is bought on ddb strictly

then you might lose it when they change ddb to 6e

[vale seal]

That's a terrifying thought

[rough basalt]

Part of the terms of service and why many advocate for physical when it comes to 5e

Cause you only own a license to access content on ddb while it has said content

[vale seal]

No I have the books

[rough basalt]

Then you're good IF that happens

[vale seal]

That's grand

[near karma]

I don't own books on DDB
Is it really "a license to access" and not just "you own the book you bought"
That really sucks. That's something Nintendo would do.

[rough basalt]

Yep

[hidden spindle]

Physical books are the best

[rough basalt]

Digital is purely while ddb allows the content to be used by you

And its every video game storefront too, just those don't really have a realistic possibility of shutting down

[rugged hawk]

That's alright, I have an 18 TB hdd.

[rough basalt]

This is strictly ddb tho

Well, also vtt sites that have partnered licenses

[vale seal]

Physical will always be better because they look sick as hell on display and also wizards can't take them away from you

[sturdy niche]

i still am not a fan of how they have been treating monk in the latest version of 5e lore, sure lot of mechanical improvements, but their lore even at a setting agnostic level, is being twisted into something that is just grossly over simplified, and when ever i have to think of that when looking at 2024 materials for the class, sorry for the vent but i felt i just had to vocalize it a bit after helping to answer a lore question about monks in dnd

[rough basalt]

Might be more apt to say "official digital 5e content"

[rugged hawk]

Okay, but good luck finding a table big enough to hold all those open books while trying to manually cross-reference between them without leaving your seat

[lusty kelp]

What lore changes? Beyond the ki-stuff going away?

[rough basalt]

tbf you don't need your whole library

just what pertains to the session/game

[rugged hawk]

You never know what players will drag into a session

[sturdy niche]

regarding digital books, buying them digital is largely to have them in a singularly accessible place, they could have implemented a system that lets you redeem it if you have the physical book, but this is likely cuz it was original a digital store front, it only recently became owned by the company that holds the game license currently

[rough basalt]

Also money

[rough basalt]

players
having books
lol /hj

[sturdy niche]

they focus far too heavily on it being combat oriented, they focus too much on being someone that punches enemies and beats them up, all the more iconic and impactful nuance of the spiritual or otherwise philisophical side, takes a back seat to the point some of it is out right losses, this is reflected in the naming convention of the subclasses

[rough basalt]

2024 opted to let players decide flavor entirely, and just provide satisfying tools

[sturdy niche]

not the point, it already was well suited to allowing you to focus on what aspect you prefered, as i said, the new stuff focuses far too heavily on the physical and combat aspect

is annoying as other classes still have arguably decent setting agnostic lore built into their texts that keep their core identities mostly in tact

[atomic kayak]

But the lore hasnt changed?

Mechanics sure, not lore

[sturdy niche]

a lot of the changes in the lore and flavor text of the monk just largely come off unnecessary and at the very least focus far to much on the combat aspect to partially quote "Many Monks find that a structured life of ascetic withdrawal helps them cultivate the physical and mental focus they need to harness their power. Other Monks believe that immersing themselves in the vibrant confusion of life helps to fuel their determination and discipline.
Monks generally view adventures as tests of their physical and mental development. They are driven by a desire to accomplish a greater mission than merely slaying monsters and plundering treasure; they strive to turn themselves into living weapons." this combined with the new naming convention, at least to me, seems to try to focus far to heavily as them being predisposed towards combat

like it might just be my perception of it, but it just consistently rubs me the wrong way, as it was one of my favorite classes and the one that i first used when getting into the game, 5e specifically

[atomic kayak]

I think you may be overestimating how much the 2014 PHB said about non combat stuff

[ivory flax]

I’m really sure how to approach any of this never played DND

[atomic kayak]

Which is to say: its the same amount as 2024

[sturdy niche]

i know, like i said it all just seems weird and to focus too much on a combat heavy role, maybe it is me not being able to realize some nostalgia, but it just seems like it could have been handled better, like i may just be because over the years i learned more of martial arts outside of dnd, largely from learning the inspiration of things behind dragonball, which is the root of my love of fantastical martial arts, and just seeing them not only remove the term ki, but also seemingly focusing so much on the combat side of thing with the naming conventions, it just rubs me the wrong way and i know it is not forcing me to change it at my table, but it just is annoying when i go to quote the latest setting agnostic stuff, cuzz once it relates to monk it does not seem nearly as carefully tread as the others, like i said i mainly just felt i had to vent this frustration a bit, apologoies

[rough basalt]

Making a very evil homebrew enemy for my monday game

[lusty kelp]

Chaotic Evil vs Lawful Evil. Why is CE more evil than Evil? A dissertation

[rough basalt]

Cause chaotic evil means you can and will do anything that serves your evil whims

[severe rampart]

I can feel Incubus' aura

[rough basalt]

But alignment is just a mess anyways

[severe rampart]

just the utterance of the alignment system is enough to summon him

[naive cedar]

not another alignment debate

[rugged hawk]

Not merely 'can and will', but arguably 'inexorably compelled'

[severe rampart]

It isn't, depends on the person, you gotta weigh their heart against a feather, obviously!

[delicate owl]

Ah yes. Alignment.

[sturdy niche]

make it something like tiamat, a being with multiple heads that are both independent yet also equally part of the same whole, historically i believe this is probably how she is able to both be "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Evil" simultaneously

[rugged hawk]

CE beings are evil and destructive all the way to their own destruction. They literally can't help it, in most cases, it seems like.

[severe rampart]

Honestly I've stopped putting the alignment system in my characters altogether

[rugged hawk]

Like Bhaal, for instance. Who has shot himself in the foot so many times, he probably blasted it off by now.

[sturdy niche]

after all, last i checked nothing stops you from simply saying "yes" when asked "what kind of evil?"

[naive cedar]

Bhaal is a boyfailure

[sturdy niche]

well that is a bit sad, you do know they are not hard regid rules, unless you are something like a fiend or celestial, they are a fluid reflection of one's character and moral outlook on the world

[rugged hawk]

It's mostly a matter of 'how' you perform evil, really. Do you commit malice through the letter of law? Or do you say 'screw the rules, I have daggers' and just murder your way through town populations?

[sturdy niche]

i feel most people who give up on alignment are mainly those who fall for the misconception that it is still like the older editions something that is rigid and not changable

[severe rampart]

I know they aren't, but anytime I mention it and try to explain someone will say "Oh but that's not what CN means, it should be TN or maybe even LN"

[rugged hawk]

As an aside, we have Devils (lawful evil) and Demons (chaotic evil), but what are the NEUTRAL evil entities?

[naive cedar]

yugoloths

[sturdy niche]

bhaal wants but one thing, to kill, as the forgotten realms wiki describes his personality, and keep in mind he was a murderer even when he was a mortal, "Bhaal only lived to hunt and kill, the presence of the living instilling in him an overpowering desire for death and destruction. He was at all times a cruel, violent and hateful being, though his behavior could vary from cold and calculating ruthlessness to a savage thirst for blood." end quote

[sturdy niche]

yep, yugoloths, the mercs of the lower planes basically

they regularly play both sides of the blood war

[rugged hawk]

Bhaal
calculating
Pick one, his math skills are nonexistent, given the L's he repeatedly takes

His planning seems pretty ambitious, but his follow through is where everything always falls apart, typically by his own minions.

[sturdy niche]

to some, honestly is likely more accurate to say that his desire for murder is greater than any other skill or trait of his, fitting since these days he is a deity of murder with that being the one thing in his portfolio, it is basically a core aspect of his very being

[naive cedar]

i mean it doesnt help that bhaalspawn dont have a great track record for planning

[sturdy niche]

besides he prefers quantity over quality, we see this even in bg3

[sturdy niche]

well historically they originally were basically his failsafe to cheat death, he cast his net wide, where as bane did something similar but only sired 1 offspring for this purpose

[sleek cloud]

Frothing at the mouth for the pugilist to drop on dnd beyond this month

[naive cedar]

TIL bane has a kid

[sturdy niche]

as i recall these days he largely uses them as sort of living weapons to just toss into the world and cause as much death as possible

[rugged hawk]

Even speaking of CE beings other than Bhaal, though, the definition of CE appears to often be 'unable to control impulse to commit evil as vilely and often as possible until forcibly stopped'.

[sturdy niche]

i literally mentioned him, just not by name, i mean you try spelling Iyachtu Xvim off the top of your head

[sturdy niche]

fun fact, he is canonically netural evil

[hidden spindle]

Poor Zombie... 🧟‍♂️

Too neutral

[naive cedar]

sorry that was meant to be "today I learned bane has a kid" but i abbreviated it

[naive cedar]

this still confuses me so much

[sturdy niche]

it pretty simple, look at the description in the latest core books for the alignment "Neutral Evil is the alignment of those who are untroubled by the harm they cause as they pursue their desires. A criminal who robs and murders as they please is probably Neutral Evil"

[lusty kelp]

I feel like dnd doesn't do neutrality well. I much prefer the four extremes

[sturdy niche]

bhaal kills because who he wants when he wants unless there is something stopping him

[rugged hawk]

Yes, but the 'desire to cause destruction for its own sake' is the definition of chaotic evil. Bhaal being neutral evil makes zero sense. We know he literally can't help himself, he has to murder and wants to.

[severe rampart]

In trying to avoid an alignment discussion we circled back to... an alignment discussion

[lusty kelp]

My evil plan has worked!!! Muhahaha

[delicate owl]

An echoed discussion

[sleek cloud]

The dealership asked me if I wanted an alignment for my car, they were super confused when I requested chaotic neutral

Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week

[sturdy niche]

to quote his latest lore "Bhaal is a god of murder who revels in violence and ritualistic killing. He lends power to those whose slaughters invoke fear and dread. The act of murder is only half the equation. The second half is the suspicion, paranoia, and fear that a seemingly unstoppable killer can evoke. Bhaal inspires fear by slaying those seemingly beyond the reach of death. He is a member of a trio of deities known as the Dead Three alongside Bane and Myrkul." end quote the first paragraph of his in his listing in "Forgotten Realms: Heroes of Faerun" chapter 3 specifically

[glossy narwhal]

Welp. I guess you learn something new every day. I didn't know the exact name of the armour I was asking about earlier, but apparently it has one

[rugged hawk]

revels in ritualistic killing
Directly countered by BG3, that was Bhaal's entire beef with Orin, who didn't understand all Bhaal wanted was QUANTITY of murder, not QUALITY.

[sturdy niche]

it something he does entirely of his own accord, not because he can't help himself

[glossy narwhal]

Is Bhaal a reference to the Canaanite deity Baal [also known as Moloch]?

[naive cedar]

probably

[sturdy niche]

not really

[rugged hawk]

I refuse to believe that. Bhaal can't stop killing even when it would actively aid his efforts.

[sturdy niche]

the realms was designed without corrolations to our own world in mind and as i said we know for a fact Bhaal was a mortal who later accended to godhood

[naive cedar]

you know thats interesting because i always figured that orin was chaotic evil. but based on that maybe not?

[severe rampart]

I regret so many choices I made with my Avernus character, I should've taken the moderately armored feat damn it, now I'm stuck at 13 AC 😔

[sturdy niche]

believe what you want, i am merely stating what is written in published materials and trying to explain it with my own understanding, if you want a definitive answer the only real person to ask would be Ed Greenwood, creator of the forgotten realms himself, as Bhaal in dnd is specific to that world and not known to be worshiped in any other setting

honestly alignment is a lot more nuanced in dnd that most tend to think of it

[glossy narwhal]

It makes you wonder, because Baal/Moloch is the God of the sun, harvest and disturbingly enough... Human sacrifice. Some versions of his lore say that the blood of the people sacrificed to him is what he derives his power from. He's pure evil, and demonic in nature

[naive cedar]

but then i also think act 1 astarion is chaotic evil which doesnt appear to be a popular opinion

[rough basalt]

Cooking probably the most evil statblock ive ever made

[sturdy niche]

if anything he would be an entirely seperate entity, as dnd in it's lore has gods of our historical faiths, though dnd's take on them, as existing beings, such as zeuz, odin, thor, loki, appolo, ect...

[naive cedar]

i mean, while the forgotten realms gods are obviously their own thing. they're still pretty obviously based on or inspired by real world gods because thats how fantasy worldbuilding works. the name bhaal being inspired by b'aal is possible

selune is obviously an amalgamation of selune and luna, the greek and latin words for moon

[sturdy niche]

if Baal/Moloch, tried to set up his faith on toril i imagine Bhaal would view him as a threat and work to eliminate his faithful where ever he found them, he already is limited in his power by being demoted to a quasi-deity by Ao for not obeying his wishes about involving directly in mortal affairs, and would not want someone coming in and potentially getting to a higher ranking who would be getting a portion of the divine power he tries to amass for himself

[rough tapir]

How and where can I join a campaign?

[glossy narwhal]

I'm talking about the name. The characteristics of the two are very similar. As his bloodthirst is insatiable. He loves it when blood is spilled in his name, although I will not go into detail about specifically who were sacrificed in his name, as people actually did. It's way too horrible.

[sturdy niche]

the names are entirely different

is subtle, but very clear, Bhaal vs what you are thinking of

[glossy narwhal]

What I'm saying is I wonder if the name was inspired by Baal

[sturdy niche]

similarities do not mean they are definitively related or inspired by it, else the term "coincident" would not exist

[naive cedar]

i feel like the name was probably inspired tbh

[sturdy niche]

you'd have to ask Ed Greenwood, he made the forgotten realms originally, Bhaal and the other members of the dead 3 included

[naive cedar]

but im also not ed greenwood so idk

[sturdy niche]

anything else would be mere random speculation

[marble lion]

I think its very reasonable to suspect inspiration here and steam is always very very very focussed on absolute undeniable statements

Good for getting info sometimes

[sturdy niche]

but i trust given Ed's own statement his original version of the realms was designed without the idea of copying our own worlds cultures to fill it out, that being something done by others who wrote in his setting when he sold it to dnd both, TSR and WOTC

[glossy narwhal]

Although I will argue that Baal is way worse than Bhaal, simply because of who in particular were sacrificed to him. Trust me. You don't want to know.

[marble lion]

Kids

[glossy narwhal]

Unfortunately yes. And infants

[marble lion]

Infants are kids no?

[glossy narwhal]

I mean as in newborns

[marble lion]

Adults suffer too, irrelevant to me

[sturdy niche]

plus you can kind of forgive bhaal and the dead 3's stupidity as deities, as they previously were mortals, and clearly unlike the sorts of kelemvor and mystra (midnight) have not disassociated themselves with there past selves to better perform their duties, the dead 3 think even more like mortals than the other gods, and while gods in dnd are not infallable, i imagine this makes the dead 3 all the more fallable at least by comparison, hense the scene at the end of bg3, if you know, you know

[glossy narwhal]

Sacrificing adults to Baal wasn't as common as child sacrifice. It happened, but unfortunately... Children were more likely to be sacrificed to him than adults. Pretty... Actually no. Messed up doesn't even begin to describe it. It's way beyond messed up

[sturdy niche]

the fantastical historical baal, in dnd likely would be the kind that took what Bhaal did to a more twisted primordial extreme and without any trace of any sort of humanity

[marble lion]

You say that like sacrificing an adult who cries, screams, struggles, soils himself, begs for mercy, claws at everything and leaves behind all he has built/formed (including family) over years of living is much less disturbing

If ignorance is bliss, a horrible end must be quite bad for an adult who may understand far more

After all, most adults arent stoic heroes who welcome death like a warrior
Most are just people with daily wishes and bonds to others

[hoary totem]

In your opinion, which subclass has the best flavour?

[fossil hollow]

you also dont know what they would be willing to do if pushed

[humble cairn]

Let's maybe stop talking about sacrificing people and how awful it is.

[humble cairn]

Personally, I'm very fond of Swashbuckler.

[fossil hollow]

that depends on what type of flavor im looking for honestly. I think that Peace Domain and Oath of the Crown are chockful of it

[remote wadi]

Asking this question again because I forgot a very specific detail

Is there a class that benefits from heavy armor, does not benefit from stealth, AND wants to keep their Strength stat low?

[fossil hollow]

Armorer Artificer

[tawdry sentinel]

I like divination wizard and announces that you must "consult the bones" four times a session.

[still plover]

Dexadin, dex fighter.

[short glade]

Watcha know bout my boy Helm?

[still plover]

-# "The bones tell me nothing."

[short glade]

Ranger in bg3 can be set up for this not sure if D&D 25 works the same.

[fossil hollow]

Doesnt fulfill the first two requirements though

[remote wadi]

I'm asking this because, if memory serves, Dwarves don't get the drawback of heavy armor if they don't meet the strength requirements

[fossil hollow]

Looking again, Armorer is the only one that lets you dump STR and not care about wether or not youre strong enough to wear plate

oh yeah, 2014 Dwarves did

[remote wadi]

Which seems pretty dumb when mountain Dwarves also get a +2 to strength and usually try to be classes that benefit from heavy armor anyways

[tawdry sentinel]

I think strength in 2024 you just lose 10ft speed so if you're a fast moving race do you not just ignore that anyway?

[still plover]

Disagree. If you're saying it's not optimal: fine.

[remote wadi]

2014, by the way

[glossy narwhal]

It's disturbing all around. But I guess I was wrong about the adult part. That was pure pop culture. The real historical sacrifices were all children. Like... WTF...

[celest sail]

i love the flavor of gloom stalker, it’s nothing special but the fantasy of a hunter prowling dark forests and ancient ruins in search of the things that go bump in the night is one of my absolute favorites alongside undead warlock

[remote wadi]

So, I looked at that benefit for dwarves, then saw that the requirements for heavy armor is needing strength

And then mountain dwarves also get a +2 to strength for help meeting said requirement

So it seems a little counterintuitive, especially with speed being 5 feet less than normal

[glossy narwhal]

How tall are dwarves in DnD?

[fossil hollow]

4-5 ft

[glossy narwhal]

Not terribly short

[fossil hollow]

theyre just stout lads

[glossy narwhal]

That's about their height in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings

[remote wadi]

Anyways, i wanted to ask really quick. Is it reasonable to say that a Ranger's strengths are greatly, but not only reliant on basic team cooperation and having probably 4 or likely fewer party members?

I personally believe it to be the case, but I'm curious if there's more to it

[hidden spindle]

Ranger's strength comes from Hunter's Mark.

[limber trail]

ranger's strength comes from using their environment to their advantage

[remote wadi]

That is another part of it. Unfortunately, not exactly a common thing in basic campaigns

In any case, I'm back to work. Catch you all later

[tawdry sentinel]

Low level ranger is rather good at killing things.

Their damage just doesn't keep up with other classes. You get all these shiny new features that fundamentally are not "becomes better at killing things."

So you get better utility from multiclassing into a druid.

[limber trail]

I don't think it's the only class that has this issue where it needs DMs to actively make challenges for it / consider it when preparing sessions, but it does seem to be the only one which a lot of DMs will just not make challenges for

It's a shoot the monkism. Sometimes you gotta throw some survival checks for the ranger to hunt down a big nasty

[tawdry sentinel]

I do like the heliana monster hunting thing where you make survival rolls to track the big thing down, roll well, you get a favourable encounter or a clue.

Roll badly, you get a bad encounter.

You need 3 rolls minimum at least two of which are good.

[hushed mason]

Um. What does any of that have to do with D&D?

[limber trail]

Interesting, I may do something like this

[limber trail]

it's spam

[hushed mason]

SPam!?

But it is neither lovely nor wonderful.

[delicate owl]

It is cheap t hough

[tawdry sentinel]

It led to someone getting awfully close to dying from exhaustion as they were pottering around an Arctic wilderness trying to find a rhemoraz.

Each tracking roll accompanied by a low DC con save Vs exhaustion. 4 rolls. 1,2,1,3. They had to wrap him up in a blanket for a bit.

[limber trail]

yikes that's rough

[tropic plank]

Every now and again the server get a few spam messages

I for instance keep getting random requests from artists looking for ‘world builders’ despite not really showing my world building off

[idle oar]

Thanks folks but if you see spam or other rule breaking, long-press/right-click the message, select Apps, then pick "Alert Mods: and that will ping us and we can investigate and moderate from there. Thanks for helping to keep our community safe.

[tropic plank]

That does lead to some narrative stakes beyond ‘you can’t find anything’ at least

[idle oar]

If you have concerns about an account (scammers), come to #moderator-support and ask to speak with a moderator. We can create a private thread where you can provide that information in an appropriate way and we can investigate. Also don't forget to report them to Discord!

And now back to D&D!

[limber trail]

who's got something fun coming up in their games this week?

[delicate owl]

Tomorrow i'm killing Strahd

[severe rampart]

in a day or so, we'll meet the 5th member of our party, who is a paladin, and we're gonna have PVP with them (since they think we're associated with a fiend)

(This paladin can easily solo all of us and still have some HP remaining)

[limber trail]

that is
rough

[severe rampart]

not rough, gonna be fun

The DM also showed me the dungeon for 2 seconds and I am very excited

I am in massive suspense since we had a 3 week break between session 1 and session 2

[limber trail]

now I'm just curious what level the paladin has to be to solo the party lol

[severe rampart]

the same as us

[tropic plank]

Given how versatile paladin is, if it’s a party of only casters probably level 3,4

[severe rampart]

We're all level 8

[tropic plank]

Oh damn

[limber trail]

good luck to the paladin lol

[severe rampart]

no, the paladin easily hands our 🫏 to us

[limber trail]

I am curious how that'll happen

[tawdry sentinel]

This entire adventure was on that line. The actual monsters weren't that scary. I tried to make it more that the environment was the problem with these con saves each hour. They had one wooly jumper to pass round between three to let someone ignore them.

It worked well I think because it's a small table, so the guy who the dice did decided has lived long enough, and numbers above 5 are forbidden, still got to do a lot of stuff. If it were a 5 or 6 person table and he's slapped with the -8 with one roll every 20 minutes I don't think it'd have gone down well.

[limber trail]

action economy is a real monster

[severe rampart]

Paladin 5, Sorcerer 3, and Warlock 1 (The Paladin is a level ahead because we're gonna level up soon)

[limber trail]

you're probably fine

[severe rampart]

did i mention she can resist death once per long rest thanks to strength of the grave

[tropic plank]

Well I doubt the dm would let a party member kill the others

[severe rampart]

I know they won't

[limber trail]

for one attack

[severe rampart]

but a sneeze can kill my character

[limber trail]

at level 8, surely not that bad

[severe rampart]

our team is comprised of Human Eldritch Knight, Changeling Lore Bard, Dragonborn Berserker, and Dragonborn Cleric

[severe rampart]

no, no, it is that bad...

[limber trail]

yeah you're fine

[severe rampart]

Oh dude I wish I could show you the character sheets

[limber trail]

how bad can they be

[severe rampart]

... our party is very flavor intensive, while the paladin is crazy optimized

out of my 21 spells, I have 4 damaging spells, and 17 utility spells

none of which can even help against the paladin

[limber trail]

what are the damaging spells?

[severe rampart]

Vicious Mockery, Sacred Flame, Thunderwave, and I'm counting Spirit Guardians as one

[limber trail]

yeah you're fine

[wanton sorrel]

Thunderwave is a spell that I always roll terrible on.

[severe rampart]

we ran a mock battle

it took the paladin two turns to kill one party member

[limber trail]

you have eight turns then

[severe rampart]

we're gonna be finee probably

the DM is begging us to deal with it diplomatically

[limber trail]

he might individually be better and even win against 2 of you

four players is so much action economy

[severe rampart]

they have a unicorn

[limber trail]

okay that changes things

[rugged hawk]

Paladins share a fatal weakness. All you have to do is force a situation that leaves them no choice but to break their oath.

[severe rampart]

-# I don't know what their oath even is

[limber trail]

every paladin has a lot of health until the fighter action surges

[rugged hawk]

This is why intelligence-gathering skills / spells are important.

[severe rampart]

they can resist death and have shadow sorcery

[limber trail]

resist death stops one attack

[severe rampart]

oh yeah, so it's just a bout between Tarkus and Guy

[limber trail]

the next one they need to make another save

[limber trail]

also, you have two party members who bypass that with ease (cleric and bard)

Radiant damage bypasses strength of the grave

[marble lion]

Unless the paladin wants to finish off players by using up a full turn just doing that, while hoping noone heals the target inbetween, there is way i can see this goes their way

[severe rampart]

Eldritch Knight Human with 100 HP vs Leonin Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock with 67 hp

[marble lion]

Some of you go down, then pally dies, youre all fine

[limber trail]

lmao paladin loses

[rugged hawk]

Okay, but have you considered the benefits of High Ground? Even a paladin can't just shrug off being defenestrated by a shove or throw.

[marble lion]

Also why is the optimiser fighting the party of flavour rp builds?

[severe rampart]

I'm just gonna abuse Spirit Guardian's + Command

[rugged hawk]

Command's not gonna work on a Pally, it's a Will save

[severe rampart]

We made some... mistakes, the party is on their way to kill Baphomet and and a giant bat nearly took us out when we were level 7

[limber trail]

A paladin, even a minmaxed paladin, isn't dealing 100hp before four other players deal 67 damage

[marble lion]

This sounds incredibly annoying as a table to deal with

[severe rampart]

Wisdom?

[marble lion]

And the paladin thus wants to kill you why?

[rugged hawk]

Whatever. The important thing is you're fighting the pally's best save

[limber trail]

at level 5 in paladin their wisdom saves are probably a +5 or so, completely failable

[limber trail]

a paladin's best save is usually charisma

[rugged hawk]

...fair enough

[severe rampart]

We were hired by a fiend to kill Baphomet, hence we're working under a fiend, and they're a paladin

[marble lion]

Prof is +3
Cha aura is +3ish
Wis is +1 or more
Thats already 7

[severe rampart]

nope, Guy I think has +2 in Wisdom, since they invested in Charisma

[marble lion]

Oh hmmm 5 right

[limber trail]

they are level 5 in paladin

so no aura

[severe rampart]

as long as they roll lower than a 14 I'm smooth sailing

[limber trail]

yeah that makes for a +5 total bc they have wisdom prof

[broken imp]

guys any social-y wizard cantrip/lv1 spell

[severe rampart]

they in fact, do not

[knotty pasture]

Bombard them with arrows, you'll be fine

[severe rampart]

None of us have ranged weapons, except for the human fighter

[limber trail]

oh their first level isn't in paladin, interesting.

[knotty pasture]

Bruh

[severe rampart]

first level was in Sorcerer

[limber trail]

barbarian takes all the hits, everyone else stands back and hits them with cantrips and ranged attacks

solved problem

[severe rampart]

Barbarian has 13 AC and 77 hp

[limber trail]

that's enough

[severe rampart]

how funny would it be to command a paladin to grovel

[limber trail]

Like to be clear echo, this paladin is not that scary

they're good for sure, they're not some instant kill machine

[severe rampart]

all of us are at critical condition, we just killed a giant bat that dealt some noticable damage, some resources exhausted too

[limber trail]

okay so

lead with that

[severe rampart]

oh yeah I forgot to mention that

[marble lion]

Why is the paladin trying to kill his halfdead party

[severe rampart]

Hired by a fiend, means we're associated with a fiend, and fiend = bad

[marble lion]

Then why did you start working for a fiend

[severe rampart]

Proper name, place name, backstory stuff

[broken imp]

take a long rest? does it work?

[marble lion]

If you had no choice, then why is the paladin trying to kill you

[severe rampart]

session 2 is a continuation of session 1, so no, we can't take a long rest

[severe rampart]

No, we had a choice, and accepted it

we're working for a fiend

[limber trail]

short rest?

[marble lion]

Sounds like a pretty bad idea

Going against a players moral constraints is a no-no

[severe rampart]

Probably not, since we're picking up on where we left off last session

[severe rampart]

that's why the DM wants us to solve this diplomatically, show that we're not evil

[marble lion]

Unless you were all told to make flexible characters and this guy brought a paladin at his own peril

[severe rampart]

I'm not sure as to why the paladin will work with us, but apparently the DM has it all figured out, so I'm looking forward to it

[marble lion]

If the dm is asking you to not fight, it doesnt sound very figured out

To me it sounds like you all ignored the paladins complaints and are gonna land in pvp plaza

[severe rampart]

eh, it's not gonna be serious PVP, I doubt anyone will die

[severe rampart]

what do you mean?

[stoic obsidian]

I feel like 20 ac is fine for a whole campaign

[marble lion]

You all decided to work for a fiend while i assume the paladin protested

[limber trail]

The paladin is a new player joining this session

[severe rampart]

Nope, this is our first encounter with the paladin

[marble lion]

Oh

Well damn i hope the DM has something smooth cooking then

[severe rampart]

I saw the dungeons,(for two seconds) it's gonna be exciting

[stoic obsidian]

What you guys think is minimum passable ac for a whole campaign?

[severe rampart]

due to some... regretful choices, I am pretty much stuck at 13 AC until the next ASI for our campaign, I think like 15-17+ is passable?

[undone rain]

You should see our bard

[severe rampart]

I myself am a bard

[undone rain]

Poor guys at like 11 ac or smth

[severe rampart]

sounds like me

[broken imp]

like 16? depend on ur campaign

[stoic obsidian]

I think passable ac depends on the class tbh

[severe rampart]

if y'all are gonna get an ASI soon, he could get the "Moderately Armored" feat

[undone rain]

Well atleast you dont try to be frontliner i hope?

[stoic obsidian]

Do you want me to be more pacific?

[severe rampart]

I am a lore bard, not a swords bard

[undone rain]

Yeah our tried to, against a buffed basilisk

[severe rampart]

may he rest in peace

[undone rain]

Oh yeah he got one shotted. Lucky for him i have cure wounds

[stoic obsidian]

I think 20ac is minimum for a martial for a functional front lining

[limber trail]

…how

[limber trail]

Depends the level. You can function with lower for a lot of the game

[jovial shadow]

What??

[limber trail]

At some point enemies are hitting 80% of the time even with a good AC

[stoic obsidian]

True, but I did say for the whole campaign

[undone rain]

I honestly dont know

[fossil hollow]

im staring at a wizard and sorceror with 11 AC in waterdeep and dragonlance lmao

[marble lion]

Not to offend but would you like to correct the spelling error in your bio?

[limber trail]

And we all saw how the sorcerer went

[marble lion]

May be on purpose, autisic

[stoic obsidian]

What spelling error?

[undone rain]

Ohhhh the bard dosent have any armor on

[marble lion]

Error in autisic instead of autistic
There should also be a space between the comma and skeptic

[limber trail]

Get that bard some stuffed leather

[undone rain]

Yeah i did see he gets a free leather armor from his backstory pick or whatever its called. I should tell him

[marble lion]

Unless autisic is actually its own thing, i didnt look that up

[broken imp]

it's really up to the campaign and character

[limber trail]

100%. Depending on level you can buy studded leather for 45gp

[undone rain]

Oh yeah we got alot of coins. Dont know how much but alot for sure

[stoic obsidian]

Thanks

[undone rain]

My paladin is also armed to the teeth. Flail, greatclub, greatsword and a longbow that i have to use a religion check for every time i use it. Think its holy or smth

Oh and of course 5 javelins that ive yet to use

[stoic obsidian]

What you confused about, unless you didn’t scroll up

[strange crater]

I love starting a fight with a cheeky javelin

[stoic obsidian]

Also enemies will hit about 80% of the time at later levels is correct as the elephant stated

[idle oar]

"Forecast is for javelins and a nice melee scrum in the corridor of the dungeon"

[broken imp]

it's easier to have a party of casters to dodge

[stoic obsidian]

Or use blur

Or hide

[broken imp]

yeah

[stoic obsidian]

So I wonder why people put so much effort in getting high ac, when it just as important to increase damage, debuffing, or gaining resistance or negating damage in general

[limber trail]

(I've got a stat block with a to hit bonus higher than most of my players' ACs, high level DnD for you)

[broken imp]

there's also a combo (2014) where 2 spell is combined to perma-freeze the enemy, e.g. for it to have no turns

[limber trail]

because it's a clear number to increase that you can see the improvement of measurably

[limber trail]

which spells?

[fossil hollow]

also fair

[stoic obsidian]

Fair, but it better for regular enemies (by the means of not being the big boss)

[broken imp]

new players are often overly concerned with damage and combat-y features, the new party i'm dming doesn't understand that fact that higher number isn't always better

[limber trail]

I have a player for my level 16 three shot who used all of his free magic items getting a higher AC and did to his credit get a 27 AC. To which every other player took a slew of offensive magic items and became much more capable offensively

[stoic obsidian]

Utility items are also useful

Like a dispelling stone

Or items that have multiple uses

[crimson gulch]

Yeah, defense is a trap when I bring out cr 30 beasts with plus 19 to hit

[fossil hollow]

id have two nicke;s

[stoic obsidian]

And honestly resistance is more handy than ac tbh

Actually hit points can be a trap too tbh

[empty thicket]

got a fight against a kraken, even it rolling a literally 1 i would get hit.
If the dm made something like, unless is 1.5 your AC you cant have access to a dext roll to just get half damage.
So at least the fight would be more funny

[limber trail]

It doesn't matter how many attacks you can resist if you never invest in any ability to actually kill the bad guys

[empty thicket]

so, if it rolled a lets say 24 total, i would get the chance to dodge it and dont get literally destroyed.

[stoic obsidian]

For if the enemy don’t get a turn, the enemy can’t retaliate in turn

[empty thicket]

so the DM can be more free in his attacks and dont worry to literally kill in an out of balance fight

[stoic obsidian]

Also non attunement items are really more powerful than I thought

Because you can a lot of them not take up an attunement slots, and some got some pretty good effects

[empty thicket]

Alchemy jug my beloved

[undone rain]

So about half hags. Are they usually magical?

[strange crater]

M A Y O N A I S E

[stoic obsidian]

Boots of Vigilance anyone

[tired stone]

Guys, how do I take down the lvl 3 barbarian, he has 53 hp

[rugged hawk]

Sooooo... Decanters of Endless Water. We should tip some over at cave entrances to the Underdark and try to drown the depths.

[stoic obsidian]

Or we can use sovereigns Glue and seal the caves

Actually we can do both

[rugged hawk]

Okay, but have you considered sacrificing people to the until it becomes an avatar of Ghaunadaur and drowns the Underdark in its primordial ooze?

[strange crater]

a Hold Person with a high wis save took out my party's barb pretty effectively 🥲

[potent vector]

Vro I can get 26 AC by level 5, still being able to attack . . .

[jovial shadow]

Is this another PC or some bandit or whatever?

[stoic obsidian]

I do that but for the singing fish head

[limber trail]

What's the setup?

[potent vector]

Also, yeah, my DM found that out when we ran One Pice in Space

[tired stone]

One of my players has 53 hp, 19 con+tough and their HP rolls were 11 and 12

[stoic obsidian]

You mean one piece?

[tired stone]

I love one piece

[rugged hawk]

Actually, it just occurred to me: the cult of Ghaunadaur was attacked and/or betrayed so many times in the 15 years or so of the campaign. And yet I can't think of a single attempt by anyone to actually try killing the the cult kept as their primary object of worship and fed all their sacrifices to.

[stoic obsidian]

Why not find another to eat it?

[potent vector]

Tortle Bladesinger, Haste. 17 + 2 (haste) + 4 (hide in shell) + 4 from Bladesong = 27*. Since Haste can be anything but a spell, I can regular action emerge from Shell every turn, Attack with Haste action, then BA return to shell for the 27 AC. Saves are terrible, and Haste ain't a good spell, but sure is fun if yk the enemy ain't got Dex saves to force

[rugged hawk]

The entire point of the cult was to empower their Gelatinous Cube from a teeny tiny little blob into a sentient city-consuming TSUNAMI OF OOZE and bring Ghaunadaur into the realms. Why didn't anyone ever think to try killing the cube instead of just the current cultists?!

To give some context to their Gelatinous Cube avatar, though, by the time they achieved their original goal, it was so large and so powerful that the Gelatinous Super Cube attacked and ate an entire Mind Flayer city, including the Elder Brain.

[stoic obsidian]

Probably because everyone love slimes

[limber trail]

that's a lot of spells & magical effects to achieve that. I'm talking about a player who was given a set amount of magic items and uses them all for +3 armour & shields & stuff. You've also definitely picked a build which, while indeed does have high AC, has so many liabilities and comes at the downside of limiting your offensive capabilities.

This also means you make only one attack per turn, which at level 5 isn't a nerf but at level 6 will be.

[potent vector]

ofc I expect that high level build to be better, point I was tryna make was that high AC ain't as hard of a measure of actual practicality. (Even with all that AC, all it takes is one Natural boi to invalidate it lol)

[limber trail]

I'm not saying high AC is particularly hard, I'm really saying that it's an impractical use of resources

[potent vector]

Misread that ig lol

[limber trail]

all of the spells and action economy used to get that tortle to a 27AC could have gone to just hitting the thing so much more, which is really illustrative of my point on a larger scale lol

that player's 27 AC came by using resources that other players used to get so much more as far as items go, with more powerful weapons, utility items, spellcasting tools, etc

it made for a character who could deal maybe 10 damage per attack where others were doing nearly 30 (one player got up to something absurd like 50 per attack at one point)

[potent vector]

Compounded by the fact that gimmicks aside you can't force enemies to attack you. Did they even have a soft taunt to make use of all that AC?

[limber trail]

There's probably something but

nothing I was concerned about

There were other players I was more concerned about and therefore other players the enemies would be more concerned about

[rugged hawk]

Okay, 27 AC, but..... turtle. Reflex saves and knockdowns, good luck standing back up, tortle clubber. Also, Lesser Dispel wants to make itself known.

[limber trail]

ooh, dispel magic on haste...... that's good to remember....

wait can my party even drop a haste spell

[rugged hawk]

As an Alchemist with Dispel Bombs, never underestimate Dispelling.

That Lich never knew what hit him

[limber trail]

dispel magic is one hell of a spell

I gave a boss a legendary action to cast a level 0-3 spell, and realized halfway through that it meant I could as a legendary action drop a dispel magic and end the bard's mirror image right before going in for the kill.

[rugged hawk]

Oh, it was fantastic. I had something like 20 bombs per rest, and I basically just used them to throw Dispel Bombs at this lich the whole fight.

[limber trail]

come to think of it i should have cast more cure wounds as a LA....

[potent vector]

2024 buffed Haste because now it's turn loss is a condition . . . meaning if something has immunity to Incapacitated can ignore Haste debuff

[limber trail]

live and learn

[limber trail]

very rare for players to have

[potent vector]

I meant for the Lich

[limber trail]

ah yeah

[rugged hawk]

The important thing is that the Lich couldn't resist all my dispels About half, but that was still enough to regularly rip away his new buffs.

[limber trail]

worth knowing, it does still have a move speed of 0 even without incapacitated since it's technically a different effect

wait

stunned doesn't stop you from moving, that's weird

[potent vector]

. . . freedom of Movement

[limber trail]

chat what should my level 16s fight this week

[fossil hollow]

Giant Scions

[potent vector]

Eyedrakes

[jaunty wyvern]

45 Gibbering Mouthers

[limber trail]

I reckon a rematch against the lich that got away could be appropriate

[craggy summit]

an unreasonable amount of goblins (jk)

the enemy that's actually a whole house

[limber trail]

but who knows

[potent vector]

The shcizophrenic dragon children of Beholders must be acknowledged

[jaunty wyvern]

Crooked moon’s monster house statblock is peak

[limber trail]

I did consider using one of those in my previous session but the fight was too busy

[fossil hollow]

Lich + Nightmare Shepherd + Death Knight

[craggy summit]

haunting revenant is the name of it, had to look it up

[fossil hollow]

oh god, not the Greaser

[craggy summit]

I'm gonna have to check that out 👀

[severe rampart]

Polymorphed Horse

[limber trail]

i was meaning the haunted revenant but maybe the greaser will make an appearance.....

[fossil hollow]

fiend that summons Shadows and gives +5 to attack and damage rolls to undead

[limber trail]

I can work with that

[meager fractal]

Why do people say rangers are bad? I just got done a session as one and it felt really good. Is it primarily at high levels where they drop off?

[fossil hollow]

memes

[limber trail]

I already threw a lich and a death knight at them last week so probably gonna let the death knights rest for a little bit

[small heath]

I build a lvl 5 ranger for this Grim Hallow campaign I'm in with a minimum perception roll of 10 at all times, and 19 if I use one of my cantrips.

[limber trail]

but the lich did escape

[jaunty wyvern]

They just don’t feel as good as other classes. Doesn’t mean rangers can’t feel good

[jovial shadow]

They are just repeating what some Youtuber said, or someone who heard it from a Youtuber

[small heath]

It's actually crazy.

[jaunty wyvern]

Grim Hollow is a bad example imo have you SEEN those race features

[small heath]

It's a Lizardfolk Green Reaper Ranger subclass

My DM is allowing races from other books.

[jaunty wyvern]

Ive heard green reaper is pretty fun

2014 or 2024

[meager fractal]

2024

[small heath]

Both, but I choose 2024 ranger. They made a whole document on what changes are permitted depending on what year you're using.

House rules stuff

[potent vector]

There's nothing they can do than someone else can't do better

[small heath]

One of the house rules added in for '24 and '14 ranger is that Hunters Mark is no longer a concentration.

Which I think is generous.

[potent vector]

They're the worst class, but not bad by any means

[severe rampart]

Yeah, mostly

[limber trail]

i think if you have a DM who sees you're a ranger and plans the campaign accordingly, you'll have a great time

[meager fractal]

that would bust the class wide open imho

or at the very least be used as a vehicle for multiclass characters to break the game

[limber trail]

a ranger will suck if it's all just teleporting from point A to point B or the campaign is entirely within a city

but if there's fun to be had exploring and traversing the wilderness, you'll have fun

[potent vector]

Not if you replace the feature that makes HM unbreakable conc at like 13th. At best just lets you actually enjoy decent spells way past when your full casters got them.

[jaunty wyvern]

Yea not having concentration on HM is kinda strong. Theres a reason the Monster Hunter weapons are considered Rare

[potent vector]

Interesting combat terrain also helps, verticality with ledges, and speed impedements like streams and what not.

[fossil hollow]

the what hunter weapons?

[limber trail]

100%

[potent vector]

Vro, 1d6 damage on every hit pales in comparison to Conjure Minor elementals, which druid got 4* levels earlier and already have 3 of . . .