#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 28 of 1

hidden current
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larloch tried to replace mystra as god of magic but failed

jagged apex
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if he were to be in any state likely would be a demi lich if he were not still a full lich

jagged apex
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and far as i can tell he never got even remotely as close as karsus did

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nor vecna and his path to godhood on oerth

hidden current
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depending on how you play gale will try and fail too

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it's not easy to become a god unless the god wants to quite like jergal did for the dead three

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personally I think just being immortal is good enough without trying to go full god

jagged apex
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well Larlock seems he was stopped before he could achieve enough power, though the way gods are known to work, this does show his netherese as they as a norm in their societies simply thought the gods were mages of astronomical power

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so he was not even remotely close to godhood, he basically just tried to gain power comparable to one and by that old netherese world view thought if successfull and gained enough power he would become a god

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especially since that was POST spellplague

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and Ao had basically made it so he had to approve any new gods in realmspace after the time of troubles last i checked, which was long before that

jagged apex
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as a lich you basically at least according to the lore i am familiar with, have to feed at least one sentient being's soul to their phylactry every 10 years to maintain the magic that keeps their sanity and undead form intact

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which in the eyes of the cosmos, destruction of a soul is a universally evil act, regardless of context

white ravine
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Also, baby murder.

hidden current
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well some immortals manage to make it work and just having to kill a few people every decade is pretty easy just go for a few bandits and people may even thank you for it

white ravine
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Gods run off of soul/faith power, so destroying them permanently denies them from the gods

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Which messes massively with natural order

jagged apex
# white ravine Also, baby murder.

that is part of one of the potions known to attempt to transform into a lich innitially, but this is more so a maintenance cost that i am referring to

hidden current
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dont tell anyone🔇

white ravine
jagged apex
hidden current
jagged apex
jagged apex
hidden current
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protect the phylactery and dont piss off anyone to powerful and ya might make it through

jagged apex
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even then there are some creatures that are capable of destroying a lich for good in one way or another, some that may even feed on it

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such as the disenchanter, a creature that literally eats magic and is immune to magical damage, can even sniff out magical items

white ravine
jagged apex
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if you are a being that literally is held together by magic that is just as dangerous as anything physically powerful

white ravine
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First thing that usually pops up when a new lich comes together is a Marut to turn them to ash.

hidden current
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still for immortality it is worth it

jagged apex
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which in 5e, even though repurposes, auto hits

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with it's truck like fists

white ravine
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Had a lot more spells before too

jagged apex
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i'd bet a non repurposed one still has that potent and devastating feature

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and the non repurposed ones are historically hyper specilized at hunting down and destroying liches, permanently

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any surviving liches are just lucky one has not been sent after them, probably just shy of the number of times you can cheat death without rousing their wrath

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even people being fully resurrected are liable targets historically if i am not mistaken if they do so one too many times, not just liches and undead

hidden current
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well what about anathema's they are immortal and evil

jagged apex
white ravine
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Yeahhhhh

jagged apex
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biological immortality like what the aboleth have is basically they will never die of old age, diseases or otherwise natural causes, will only be killed for good if you murder them or deliver a fatal wound and they do not manage to recover in some manner from it

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liches are more of a retroactive immortality, where they die, but they don't stay dead and reform

eager bay
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Hello, has there ever been a Dragon King on the swords coast?

hidden current
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there have been dragons as kings of humans but dont know about king of other dragons

jagged apex
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likely, but to what degree, not sure, would have to elaborate, as i bet a dragon on the sword coast has likely had a title that refers to them as a king of some sort

eager bay
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hmm? I wonder if in earlier editions there was ever a Adventure based around the topic

hidden current
jagged apex
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does not ring a bell to me

jagged apex
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but that place was much more inland

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any likely formal king in the traditional sense that was a dragon likely was a steel dragon, which rarely are in their true dragon forms

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but none to my knowledge exist, does not mean none exist, but if there are i am not familiar with them and they are potentially obscure

jagged apex
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but that is rather far from the sword coast

sour trout
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Since dragons seem to predate humanoid civlizations, what did they hoard before humanoids were around to make valuable objects?

jagged apex
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magic items for sure

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probably also gemstones

unkempt merlin
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dragons are also capable of making things

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not to mention: there have been many civilizations before the common humanoid ones

jagged apex
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pretty much anything of value and or power

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the dawn of humanoid civiliztions if anything just gave them a wider selection of things

eager bay
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I thought there was an asteroid which caused the collapse of draconic civilization, and stopped them from that, and that’s why the moon is destroyed** due to the failure of the dragons to stop it

jagged apex
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not quite, but their civilization did fall

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but they are still as intelligent if not more so than most intelligent races and can still make things, just their great empire basically at least on toril came crashing down, between the dracorage mythal, which was tied to a comet that for the longest time would regularly fly over head on a regular basis, the gods of their kind not really doing anything to fix that, and the civil holy war between the followers of bahamut and tiamat, who in present days are really the only gods of the draconic pantheon with any notable precense on toril

eager bay
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They should do an adventure of Abir so we can see what that Draconic World is like

jagged apex
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i believe they did briefly in past editions or one of the past ones or at least had given us info on it

jagged apex
sour trout
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That picture of a tiny domino leading up to a huge one, starting with "Ed Greenwood needs to make the name of the world come first in the alphabetical campaign setting" and ending with "they should do an adventure in the dragon world"

tame locust
sour trout
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That is the story for why it became "Abeir-Toril." Don't know how accurate it is.

jagged apex
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sounds made up far as i know

eager bay
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Abier was the planet given to the elementals following the dawn war, and the dragons by modern day killed most of the elementals and established empires

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The Dragonborn’s are from Abier

jagged apex
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primordials

eager bay
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Primordial yes

jagged apex
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no idea why you put an ' in dragonborn

jagged apex
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cuz the dragonborn had a whole history of failed rebelions from the dragon empire trying to escape their enslavement

eager bay
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Side note they need to mention Kara Tur more

jagged apex
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not really, though would be nice if they did, but the outdated content, in more ways than one, could prove an issue to why they try to steer clear of it when possible

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as a lot of it was kind of rooted in stereotypes and offensive terms back in 2e

eager bay
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Yes, but they could do some Ret coning and change it

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To a less offensive version which is more suitable

jagged apex
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but is unlikely cuz old settings like that are already stuff the fandom has been adapting to 5e via 3rd party books, so is not something they have much incentive to tackle and likely not much desire to

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at least for the time being

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especially after the incident with the hadozee

sour trout
jagged apex
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they likely are worried they will accidently publish offensive content if they tried to convert such a controversial premise with that setting/part of the realms

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honestly i'd rather them take their time and not force or rush themselves if it increase the chances of when and if they do it they will put the effort and actually try to do it well

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cuz otherwise you are gunna get a produce that pretty much nobody will be happy with or about

sour trout
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All I want is a decent FR campaign setting for 5e

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but I'm not holding my breath

jagged apex
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we already have plenty of that, though some people are overly hard on it cuz of one reason or another or just cuz of the hyper focus on the sword coast

sour trout
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Scag is not a campaign setting.

jagged apex
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was not reffering to scag

sour trout
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Neither are appendices in adventures.

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I mean a real Campaign Setting. Like we used to get in previous editions.

jagged apex
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i was reffering to pretty much all the other adventures which easilly helps flesh out the setting

jagged apex
sour trout
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I did say I'm not holding my breath

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but it's what I want

jagged apex
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good for you

sour trout
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weirdly aggro, but ok

jagged apex
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well this is a place for lore talk and you were definitely going more into marketing and the product

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plus just cuz you want something does not mean the majority wants it

eager bay
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What’s the worst setting which they included in 5E

iron saffron
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Strixhaven I guess. There's barely anything about it or its lore in the one book.

jagged apex
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cuz closest one i am aware of is tchazzar and the nation of chessenta, but that is far from the sword coast

sour trout
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Yeah, Strixhaven has the most boring lore IMO

dusty meteor
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I love tchazzar

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so much

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What a goofy guy

sour trout
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I do like the hint in Fizban's that the bahamut/tiamat relationship is more complicated than we've seen before.

jagged apex
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i wouldn't call him goofy, if anything full of himself, as dragons of faerun describes his personality "Tchazzar was a force of pure chaos and evil. He was convinced of his superiority over all living things, even more so than a typical red dragon. He cared not for his subjects or allies except as expendable resources, but at the same time made efforts to ensure their loyalty."

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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guys this is a lore channel

fallow leaf
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spelljammer was implemented so terribly they added nothing except the concept of "space exists"

jagged apex
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-_-

fallow leaf
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it counts because im talking lorewise

sour trout
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block lorecop.

iron saffron
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As a fan of 2E Spelljammer I loathed the changes in 5E Spelljammer of moving from the phlogiston to the Astral Sea and removing the Crystal Spheres.

jagged apex
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i am not a lore cop or anything like that, the moderaters or the bots are gunna tell you anyways and potentially remove messages if they catch you steering off topic too much

fallow leaf
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im okay with the phlogisthon and crystal spheres not existing but i wish the astral sea was an interesting alternative

jagged apex
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it is, with the collective info we already have

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just cuz they don't heavily detail everything in the book does not mean it is not

iron saffron
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My issues is that the Astral Plane/Sea is suppose to be a transitional plane between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes and not a "sea" of traveling between worlds in the Material Plane.

sour trout
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I'm just upset that they removed the variety of stuff that used to be in spelljammer. Where are the different helms? They gave ships different flavor. It feels like all ships are the same now.

jagged apex
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and besides interesting is a very vauge and subjective term

iron saffron
dusty meteor
jagged apex
sour trout
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I mean, I'm not too upset that there are different ways to get around. I figure some campaigns just won't have spelljammers, and campaigns that want to spelljam won't have people magicing around everywhere

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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do i have to remind you the prefered ship of the giff has a massive and functional cannon making up the front of it?

dusty meteor
jagged apex
fallow leaf
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not really?

sour trout
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I like to run 2e lore in 5e. I'm running a campaign set in 2e-era dalelands right now.

jagged apex
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also solar systems as we know them are not a thing in dnd, the term has never once been uttered in dnd lore to my knowledge

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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honestly i feel people are just often giving more flack than is actually warranted cuz of their own personal expectations, wants, and desires and not able to seemingly temper those and judge the contents for what they are instead of what they are not, that is all i will say on the matter cuz i feel this is a pointless topic anyway

fallow leaf
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the book is called spelljammer adventures in space, i expect rules and guidance to help with adventures in space. Not "adventures in an empty void where half the 64 page book is ships that are almost the exact same mechanically with different maps and the other half is one single town in space"

iron saffron
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I'm looking at my 2E Spelljammer book (from the boxed set) and it's 96 pages. It covers a lot more than 5E Spelljammer, including how to create your own worlds/systems and space combat.

fallow leaf
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only about 5 pages of the book are dedicated to rules about space

calm crest
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No mention of the titular The Spelljammer since 2e, either, unless I’m mistaken.

dusty meteor
iron saffron
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There are tables for how long it would take to travel between worlds of Greyspace, Realmspace, and Krynnspace.

dusty meteor
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I might by the set actually

fallow leaf
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page 17 is about gravity and speed, 18 about air envelopes, 19 is gravity planes, 20 is about the astral plane, the single sentence that explains how to make your own wildspace system, and travel between worlds. 21 is about traversal through systems and astral fishing (which is kinda fun), and 22 is about magic

dusty meteor
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Cant be more than $120-$130

iron saffron
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It's priceless for me! (moreso after 5E Spelljammer)

dusty meteor
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Oh I don’t want to take yours

jagged apex
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you seem to be forgoting 5e is about streamlining things in terms of mechanics, ie making it no more complex than it absolutely needs to be, this goes at times for the lore to, and i doubt the page count of the content is a viable way to judge it and is not lore related really

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this honestly just seems like elaborate edition bashing

dusty meteor
iron saffron
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5E design philosophy is "Hey, DMs, you make it up."

dusty meteor
jagged apex
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dnd has always had a degree of ambiguity even in established published materials and settings

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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in 5e you are given the basic and bare minimums actually need to play with the 5e system, that allows you to add more complex factors and mechanics as you please

fallow leaf
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i paid 70 bucks for spelljammer, i should expect more than the bare minimum

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i could spend an hour and make up rules for space travel more satisfying

iron saffron
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Well, that's what the 3rd parties are doing... they're filling in the void of rules and lore WotC didn't bother to do with their books.

jagged apex
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it is not that black and white, you guys are oversimplifying it and you know it

iron saffron
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Yes, I'm oversimplfying it, like WotC has been doing. 😉

fallow leaf
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okay, then do you consider the spelljammer box set a good deal as a book?

jagged apex
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they are not "doing the bare minimum" anyone can see that from the content they actually put out and the content explaining it on added platforms like youtube where they are transparent with a lot of the development and approaches they took to making these things

fallow leaf
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oh its not 70, its 80 dollars for the physical box set

fallow leaf
eager bay
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What edition has a psionic class, and if where did it go in the lore during 5E

jagged apex
fallow leaf
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im not talking about 2e here, i havent either

jagged apex
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9 times out of 10 when i hear someone complain about 5e lore they either just oversimplify it cuz of their view of the company that owns the licence for the game or they are more so complaining about what is not 5e rather than the actual content

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it gets annoying

jagged apex
# fallow leaf i watched those jcraw interviews religiously before the book came out, i was hyp...

the fact is they are just avoiding restricting you more than ever, that is why it seems like it do to the streamlining on top of that, past editions a lot of these are being taken from and expanded apon or adapted were more complex at their core do to the system at the time and often some of the ideas we get in our head are specific to us and not realistic expectations for something that is aimed at more than just us or just new fans or just old fans or any one fraction of the fandom

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(honestly feels like i am one of the few people that gives the 5e products and those who work hard to make them the benefit of the doubt or don't go complaining about what is not in there, and when i try to explain this sort of thing or show or imply someone is being a bit more harsh than they need to i get accused of being some pro wizards of the coast butt kisser or something of the sort when i am not and i am certain they know that, it is frustrating)

dusty meteor
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it was way too good

jagged apex
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yeah cuz it literally was too imbalanced and was ultimately not nessissary

fallow leaf
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i think its also when you ask 4 people what a psychic class should look like you get 5 different answers

dusty meteor
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I would argue the latter isn’t true and the former can be fixed but

jagged apex
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part of the reason for the ones we actually got is they realised they already had dipped their toes into this field with the psionic monsters that already were in 5e

dusty meteor
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it’s not happening and it’s not worth it

fallow leaf
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yeah wotc just decided not to try it again and make those three psionic sublcasses in tashas

eager bay
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(Is there an unearthed arcana book)

fallow leaf
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which to me is like if you didnt have the cleric but just had divine soul sorcerer, celestial warlock, and like, a single paladin subclass for fighter

jagged apex
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anyways i am gunna drop from this topic, try to check back when it is actually more lore focused rather than comparing mechanics and one edition to another and all that, partially for my own sake so i don't just keep getting annoyed and wind up doing something stupid

sour trout
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I think D&D has always struggled with differentiating psionics from magic

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seems like they've decided not to bother

fallow leaf
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which is a little sad

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if oned&d still did the multi class spell lists, psionic wouldve made for a great 4th list

sour trout
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to be fair, if they'd built the two systems together from the start, there are probably a lot of spells that, flavor-wise, should probaby be psionics

fallow leaf
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the multi class spell lists were great but they just couldnt fit the bard shaped puzzle piece into the puzzle

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because they kinda took the concept from pathfinder where bard had its own occult spell list

fallow leaf
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along with being 8th level, leaves it in the pile no one ever uses ever

dusty meteor
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Seems more in line with enchantment

mystic forum
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so, what exactly makes MrRhexx inaccurate? Is it his use of novels set in the Forgotten Realsm? Does he slip things up on occation? Does he take some things that he beleives are implies and state them as fact? Does he twist the truth to tell a more interesting & cohesive story? Does he selectively use lore from different sources to prop up his take?

jagged apex
# dusty meteor Seems more in line with enchantment

to be fair with telepathy the school it belongs to is a very broad one quote from how it defined as in the basic rules for 5e "spells manipulate magical energy to produce a desired effect. Some call up blasts of fire or lightning. Others channel positive energy to heal wounds."

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is like the most broad school of magic if ever there was one in 5e

dusty meteor
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manipulate magical energy to produce a desired effect
the desired effect is paralyzing a humanoid

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Hold person is now an evocation

mystic forum
jagged apex
# dusty meteor Seems more in line with enchantment

also enchantment is defined in 5e as "spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. Such spells can make enemies see the caster as a friend, force creatures to take a course of action, or even control another creature like a puppet."

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between these definitions it classifies better as evocation than it does enchantment, especially since the spell in question makes no mention or implication of manipulation of the minds involved

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let alone influencing or controlling, is more a means of communication over long distances

jagged apex
mystic forum
jagged apex
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is not like his content is completely dismissible, there is some merit to it, and is still good food for thought for dming if for nothing else to flesh out some of the ways races in your campaigns can interact, like a lot of my own norms i take from the forgotten realms and published lore for example

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basically just don't take it as gospel or 100% fact

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you know, take it with a grain of salt or 2

mystic forum
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😭

opaque zodiac
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What is the lore of orcus

white ravine
# opaque zodiac What is the lore of orcus

Demon Prince of Undead, the bloated sickly corpse of an abomination. Once a mortal soul that slowly grew into the monster he is now, he kicked and screamed his way out from the dreg heap and now sits right at the top of the pile.

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He carries around a wand made from the skeletal remains of one of his hated enemies, and between it and himself he's one of the most powerful necromancers in all existence. As uncaring of his own undead as his living enemies, he creeps ever closer to the complete annihilation of all life.

grim siren
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His involvement in the Dead Gods Adventure from 2e is so good.

iron saffron
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Orcus killed a Primus, temporarily taking his mantle and this lead to the Great Modron March to occur about 150 to 200 years ahead of schedule.

drifting jacinth
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Is there a deity in the DnD Universe, which represents Death as a normal thing and really dont like anything, which meddle with the natural thing, that death is? For example cheating death like undead or searching for immortality or even dont really likes Ressurection?

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Hmm okay

humble jungle
white ravine
modest badger
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Wee Jas also despises undeath

sour trout
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kelemvor or raven queen, yeah

eager bay
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I'm confused. Can encephalon clusters and gemmules fly or not?

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Because they don't have a fly speed listed

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But in every inage of the gemmules, they fly

iron saffron
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Artististic license in an illustration =/= rules (statblock)

obsidian gate
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soo Zaerith Menyar-Ag-Gith, Immortal leader of the Githzerai.

what kind of Warlock Patron would he be? i can see arguments for GOO; Undead and even Celestial

slow river
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My PCs story is their mother couldn't have a child so a marid granted her the wish and she gave birth to a ganisi. Is that fine or is it 'ask your dm' territory?

iron saffron
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Ask your DM territory.

slow river
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Sorry

iron saffron
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DM has final say at what happens at their table.

obsidian gate
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yeah ask your DM, though I dont see any big contradictions with existing lore in places like FR

slow river
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Yeah, I know id ask my dm either way I just wondered if it was ever explicitly said to not be possible

iron saffron
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Wish is a powerful spell so why not?

slow river
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Can't marids grant wishes?

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They're genies aren't they?

obsidian gate
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greater genies can grant wishes. the ones we have statblocks for cant just fyi

slow river
obsidian gate
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noble genie would be the correct term

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the ones you make warlock pacts with

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not every genie is that powerful

slow river
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There are water noble genies?

obsidian gate
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sure, every type of genie has their nobles

slow river
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Nice

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I'm so sorry I'm just trying to make my character make sense

obsidian gate
white ravine
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Hes got some of the others, but hes still a githzerai at the end of the day, psionics are his business

obsidian gate
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true, psionics is kinda his thing

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(too bad GOO is my least favorite of those subs mechanically)

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whats your second pick?

white ravine
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My question is why Celestial?

cloud marten
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wdym by that?

white ravine
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Im not familiar with githzerai so the celestial point is throwing me off

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Quite literally 'why Celestial?'

vestal bramble
white ravine
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Did not know that

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Hm. In that case I'd go more for celestial.

eager bay
iron saffron
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But he's not god, not even a demi-god. He was a very high level fighter/wizard — he's just treated like a demi-god, not unlike Roman or Japanese emperors were.

From 1E Manual of the Planes:

It is ruled by Zaerith Menyar-Ag-Gith (the Great Githzerai), an immortal wizard-king who is a 16th-level fighter and a 23rd-level mag. He is treated as a demi-god if encountered on Limbo.

dusty meteor
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Yeah revering someone doesn’t make them a god

jagged apex
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like if you can control the enviorment you are in when said inviorment can become any substance or element presumably imaginable, that is pretty god like even on the low end

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would imagine not only being immortal but also their leader, he has mastered this practice if any of them have

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also, for a warlock patron, i'd argue undying

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as especially for the artwork on his wiki page, has heavily living mummy buddhist vibes

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which, though his stats are listed as being from 3e, the artwork itself is 5e, so while he has not had stats have not been addressed since 3e, we know he exists and is still the githzerai leader in the 5e continuity do to his mention and even getting depicted in actual artwork

jagged apex
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which honestly such a state sounds right in the wheel house of undying warlocks

drifting jacinth
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Out of interest- Are there some websites on the internet which have lore about the world of DnD, which are not legacy content?

modest badger
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As in, 5e only lore?

sharp owl
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Lore isn't really edition specific

drifting jacinth
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Well there is the forgotten Realm Wiki - which has so much amazing Lore about Faerun. Question is - Is this „Lore“ still usable in 5e? For example the Trance feature of the elven Race is from a more perspective so much more than just - You fall into a trance for meditation for 4 hours - Which comes from the 5e description.

sharp owl
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What do you mean 'useable'?

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The lore doesn't change the mechanics, but the DM decides what lore they use and how

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I think you might be looking at lore through the wrong lens

modest badger
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The FR wikipedia does actually try to be as 'up to date' as possible for lore. New edition lore takes priority over older edition lore. If lore hasn't been contradicted or retconned, it's kept in and assumed to be still 'true'.
Some pages though might never be 'updated' to a newer edtion because the sources are always older editions.
You'll need to use your own judgement too.

olive bridge
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The Mariner Archetype for the Fighter Class talks about the Denise Empire and the denisians. Is that part of a particular setting?

drifting jacinth
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Can anyone explain me why the Lord of the Dead aka Kelemvor and many other gods, which represents the God of Death for other Races (Sehanine Moonbow for the Elves for example) hated the Undead? I understand that being undead is a direct Crime to the whole Concept of Death and Dying. But the Soul still should be on its journey to the afterlife right?

Or can you somehow trap the Soul when you turn a corpse undead. And how does this whole Ressurect thing works in General?

olive bridge
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searching with denise muddies the search results with people, and denisian is apparently a synonym for French

jagged apex
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i kind of hope that Worghests make a return in some form in the 5e planescape, their ties to the barghests i feel they could easily appear as potential residences of what ever gate town tied with Gehenna, conceptually they just seem like a cool part of goblin kind to me

jagged apex
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so to a god of death they are literally mocking them just by existing for all intents and purposes

olive bridge
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or it could mean the creature's being kept out of the realm of death by a curse

jagged apex
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i find he often does a great job of explaining these kind of bits of the dnd lore and how they work or at least can work

olive bridge
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the body's dead, but the spirit is barred entry to death

jagged apex
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to my knowledge in the case of a death knight the soul is still bound to the body it uses as said creature, but part of the punishment is constantly having the horrible deed they did on loop in their mind, even if at the back of their mind, over and over until they repent, if they don't they are raised again and their punishment continues

olive bridge
#

in the theros setting, a spirit is barred entry unless they can pay the ferry toll

jagged apex
#

yeah but to my knowledge gardos is asking about normal dnd or at least the forgotten realms setting

olive bridge
#

right, just giving another example

jagged apex
#

though they may not be as neat as i think, to be fair i kind of have gobos on the brain cuz i play one in my current weekly campaign, so i might be a bit bias on if them returning in 5e would be neat or not

modest badger
#

The lore is a bit spotty as it goes through editions.
So in 5e:

Basic Rules, Ch.10: Spellcasting, Schools of Magic sidebar:

Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life.

Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters use such spells frequently.

Skeleton, MM:

Animated Dead. Whatever sinister force awakens a skeleton** infuses its bones with a dark vitality**, adhering joint to joint and reassembling dismantled limbs. This energy motivates a skeleton to move and think in a rudimentary fashion, though only as a pale imitation of the way it behaved in life.** An animated skeleton retains no connection to its past, although resurrecting a skeleton restores it body and soul, banishing the hateful undead spirit that empowers it.**

Zombie, MM:

Most zombies are made from humanoid remains, though the flesh and bones of any formerly living creature can be** imbued with a semblance of life. Necromantic magic, usually from spells, animates a zombie. Some zombies rise spontaneously when dark magic saturates an area. Once turned into a zombie, a creature can't be restored to life except by powerful magic, such as a resurrection spell.**

Although Resurrection the spell says you cannot target undead, so... this is tricky. it could mean that once a creatures corpse has been descrated so, the only way to bring the creature back to life is to use resurrection on a body part that is not part of the undead creature, which then also ends the undead creature (least with the skeleton). This does imply that even though the soul has not been dragged back, the act of animating the corpse interferes with the souls ability to return to life if granted.

#

Now part of this might not be explicit lore, but in some ways, Abrahamic values coming through. Necromancy and meddling with the dead in Abrahamic faiths is seen as so evil, because in the older beliefs the body is the soul. It is needed for the great resurrection. So as a culture many westerners had, and still have to an extent, this massive taboo against necromancy. And this is seemingly reflected in D&D lore that so long as a corpse remains fouled by necromancy, the soul cannot return to it.

drifting jacinth
#

The whole Ressurection Thematic is kinda interesting and Weird. For example - Why do i have to pay up when i want to ressurect someone in form of a diamond. And who exactly got this "Money"? xD

modest badger
#

Some part of undeath and necromancy is also things like vampires or Liches who now won't die as they are meant to. They are going against the natural order of things by living beyond what they should do. Although... different t how a druid extends their lifespan I suppose.

drifting jacinth
#

Which would mean that a god of Death would have interest in destroying this beings, since they disturb the natural order of Life and Death?

Druids and Elves in General on the other Hand... well i would say some races simply live longer than others? Its still in the natural order right?

modest badger
#

I suppose the difference is Druids will still pass on eventually, even if their lifespan has been greatly increased, while undead will not unless destroyed.

jagged apex
#

unlife is literally unnatural

#

honestly, the only real exception is the elves known as baelnorn in regards to elves

jagged apex
drifting jacinth
#

Read yesterday aboput the after Life about Kelemvor - The whole Dying Process and Sehanine Moonbow - But somehow dont about the Baelnorn xD

modest badger
#

Baelnorns haven't yet made it to 5e

drifting jacinth
#

Didnt Sehanine only tolerate Baelnorn as same as white Necromancy which also havent made it to 5e

jagged apex
#

they are one of the few undead that are not destructive or otherwise hostile towards life

jagged apex
modest badger
#

Supposedly to these source Kelemvor and other anti-undeath gods also seek destruction of Baelnorns

jagged apex
#

it boils down to basically how you use your necromancy spells and the like

#

quote cited from the sword coast adventurer's guide regarding their history "As of the mid-to-late 14th century DR, the church of Kelemvor did not see baelnorn as requiring destruction, and generally preferred to leave them be. However, by the late 15th century DR their stance had hardened, and they sought to eradicate the baelnorn as they did all undead"

#

but to be fair, this is regarding his church, not the god himself

modest badger
#

So Saith Ed, 30 June, 2009: (http://candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_040506-09.htm)

bradhunter, Knight of the Gate, and other interested scribes: Ed has confirmed that his view still stands: Kelemvor (and by his instruction, his clergy) ignore baelnorn. That is, they do not treat them as undead to be destroyed, and deal with them only as necessary; polite avoidance and minimal contact is best (and being as Ed is the creator of baelnorn, he's by definition the go-to expert on them).
According to Ed, archliches are regarded as undead to be aided in achieving their task/mission and then cajoled to "pass on" into true death rather than hanging around; archliches who disagree, or who have established "unfulfillable" or really long-term tasks or missions for themselves, are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis (i.e. Kelemvor, working through his servants as proxies, wants to truly understand the motivation and natures of each individual archlich before deciding on a policy towards each particular archlich).

#

SCAG, 2015:

For instance, priests of Kelemvor routinely destroy any writings about the creation of the undead that they find—an act that offends those who value knowledge for its own sake, such as the faithful of Oghma and Deneir. And there also exist undead that aren't evil, such as the baelnorn, which the elves consider holy. Kelemvor's devotees seek the end of such beings regardless of that fact.

jagged apex
#

so basically the ones in his church have gone a bit rouge it would seem, if one were to consolidate these 2

modest badger
#

So 5e lore and canon source book overides Author forum comment here, and Kelemvor does indeed seek to destroy all undead, even Baelnorns

jagged apex
#

though again, it is the mortals who follow him that are mentioned in the 5e source, NOT the god himself's stance or view on them, so for all we know until they tell us otherwise via published material, the argument can be made the church and his followers have gone a bit rogue

cloud marten
#

Ed Greenwood can still keep fleshing things out since WotC won't do that

#

and he still has control over FR

jagged apex
#

and if wizards does not contradict him in published materials, then we have no reason to not believe Ed's own word on the subject to ring true

modest badger
#

You could try to reason that within your own game, but lore wise now in 5e, Kelemvor's churches (not a few rogue ones) seek to destroy any undead

jagged apex
#

the church does not need to be considered rogue for the followers to have deviated from his decrees or rules

modest badger
#

Heirachy of offciality and canonicity.
Forum posts can give insight, but do not overule actually official lore

jagged apex
#

even if it is just this one aspect they have diviated from, they are technically still a bit rogue as individuals

modest badger
#

Not within 5e official lore.

jagged apex
#

-_-

#

you seem to be missing my point

modest badger
#

There is a difference between stating lore, and giving sources, then head canoning how to connect conflicting sources.

jagged apex
#

statement on the actions and views of his church does not automatically translate to those of the god proper

modest badger
#

In this case, Ed's forum posts are not official. And within the heirachy of the Wikia would also be considered lower priortiy than official source books and also in date.
Newer lore replaces older lore, official source books trump 'SO Saith Ed'

jagged apex
#

so in short, in 5e, wizards of the coast has not actually addressed kelemvor's view of the baelnorn as having changed, and if they have it has been in an ambiguous and round about way that leaves it unclear

cloud marten
#

thus what Ed says about topic stands

jagged apex
#

i am not gunna waste time getting into an argument over this, i made my point, attempted to clerify it, if you still are missing it, not much i can do

modest badger
#

The truth of the matter is more than in 2009, Ed felt that Kelemvor would ignore Baelnorns, but this lore never made print.
In 2015, official lore says the church of Kelemvor treats Baelnorns as other undesired undead.

jagged apex
#

Kelemvor himself does not = the church of kelemvor, last i will say on the matter

modest badger
#

The full quote here:

In fact, all the faithful of Kelemvor despise the undead and work to some degree to eliminate them, for undead of any sort are seen as an abomination of the natural order. This belief obviously puts Kelemvor's faithful at odds with necromancers, priests of Myrkul, and others who promote the creation of the undead, and it also causes conflict from unexpected sources. For instance, priests of Kelemvor routinely destroy any writings about the creation of the undead that they find—an act that offends those who value knowledge for its own sake, such as the faithful of Oghma and Deneir. And there also exist undead that aren't evil, such as the baelnorn, which the elves consider holy. Kelemvor's devotees seek the end of such beings regardless of that fact.

It's not 'Some of his devotees' or 'some rogue devotees' or 'some interpret this to mean'.
It's 'Kelemvor's devotees'. As a group.

Now if this was taken alone this would just mean that Kelemvor's devotees, following the guidance of their deity, seek to end undeath in any form.

With an old forum post we have a lore conflict

drifting jacinth
#

Okay baelnorns are pretty cool to be honest.

modest badger
#

Because in 2009 Ed said, in an email forum, that Kelemvor would ignore Baelnorn's.
The conflict is not an in universe one. It's a meta issue of different sources and different times and editions. And should be resolved as such.

#

This is why it is important to examine the sources of your lore and track how the ideas and concepts developed. Old lore is retconned, contradicted or abandonned all the time. When such contradictions happen, trying to resolve them in universe can be a fun headcanon challenge, but unless the conflict in lore is actually addressed within the lore (I.E 'Kelemvor used to encourage his devotees to advoid Baelnorn out of the interest of not causing conflict, but some devotees are zealous enough to still seek their destruction') the issue is always a meta one.

#

It's not unlike how Crawford's tweets sit in Rules discussion. They can be helpful insights, but if they contradict the actual rules written in the books, one source is official and one is just an author's tweets.

modest badger
#

Although another Ed Greenwood Tweet from 2020 if interested:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1229067419886456834

Viktor Grey: I just feel that as a bit of paradox because theres literally absolutely zero info of how grave deities especially Kelemvor react on "good" liches.

That's because leaving baelnorn alone is something clergy of Kelemvor "don't talk about" (it SEEMS to contradict their ethos, as simply expressed to laity). Kelemvor doesn't command his clergy to destroy or bother baelnorn; his "hatred" of undead is itself a (2) mortal oversimplification of the views of a deity that have shifted greatly over time, as he settles into a role he alters as his understanding grows and his personal views change.

So your interpretation that the 5e SCAG devotees that slay Baelnorn are 'rogue' or least working individually in that they are not following their deities wishes but their own interpretations of his values would be in line with how Greenwood himself views this lore.

#

Further up in this thread chain Greenwood also points out that as Baelnorn asre tomb guardians, and Kelemvor followers should not desire to disturb a tomb, there is in universe reasons for why a follower should be hesitant about bothering a Baelnorn as well.

modest badger
# cloud marten and he still has control over FR

And to clarify- he doesn't.
Not that he can't for fans, but he no longer owns Forgotten Realms or has any actual control over it.
He sold the Rights to it in 1986:

Sending TSR a few dozen cardboard boxes stuffed with pencil notes and maps, he sold all rights to the Realms for a token fee. “It didn’t make me rich (no, I don’t own part of TSR, control the Realms, or get royalties on all Realms products), but I’ve never regretted it for a moment.
Dragon Magazine 244, p 112, 1998

Only sources considered official by him are ones published by TSR or WotC for the realms. Tweets, forum posts and emails are not that.

The Forgotten Realms Wikia does consider them canon however:

The Canon policy outlines what lore and sources are accepted on the Forgotten Realms Wiki and how to resolve contradictions between them. For the purposes of this policy, "canon" is the term given to a piece of Realms- or D&D-related information that establishes its status as an official part of the Forgotten Realms fictional universe.
(...)
There is no generally accepted, official, hard-and-fast set of rules given by TSR, Inc. (TSR) or Wizards of the Coast (WotC) for determining outright what is canon, so this policy provides guidelines for determining what is considered canon on this wiki, (Emphasis mine) in accordance with authors' recommendations and fan consensus.

"Canon", according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.[citation needed] This means that if it is official or licensed published material, then it is official Realmslore. This would make video games and other licensed works canon, which would cause inherent problems such as contradictions in the lore and outcomes of decisions by players in the course of gameplay.

#

(...)
Everything Ed Greenwood writes and says regarding the Forgotten Realms is canon, unless or until superseded by published material from TSR or WotC. This includes his website columns, his responses at the Candlekeep forums and the So saith Ed compilations, his Twitter account @TheEdVerse, as well as convention seminars, interviews and so on. However, all material referenced to Ed Greenwood should be cited to a published or online source that readers can reasonably be expected to find and view for themselves to confirm. Off-the-cuff remarks, general discussion, and references to his personal Realms game are not considered valid.

And in response to 5e's stance on canon the wiki has this to say:
(...)

However, while this may be fine for D&D designers and Dungeon Masters, it is not helpful for a wiki endeavoring to document the entirety of the Forgotten Realms and in each edition with neutrality and completeness. **Fortunately, the 5th designers invite fans to create their own canon. Therefore, this wiki must establish for itself what it considers canon to determine what is acceptable content, and has done so through the general consensus of its editors. **

#

I could very well go onto the wiki and debate 'Hang on, using the rules for heirachy of sources then it's established that in SCAG (An official source book) in 2015 that Kelemvor devotees do hunt Baelnorns, which then supersedes his 2020 tweet and 2009 Email that they shouldn't' and like above a debate could be opened on if the two conflict lore wise. In all likelyhood with the 2020 tweet they would actually agree with you both- in fact you can even use that tweet to add to the wikia if you like and note that Greenwood implies the hunting of Baelnorns to be 'mortals misinterpreting the desires of their deity' . This is one of the strengths and flaws of a wikia that tries to keep all lore 'up to date' and 'canon'. Other D&D wikis will instead take the approach of seperating all information by edition and source making no claim as to the status of canon, simply citing infomation that was published.

What my point was is that in 5e the only official lore is in SCAG. Where Kelemvor devotees will hunt Baelnorns and no statement is given on them being rogue, acting on individual intention or being a minority.

drifting jacinth
#

Oh btw - is there a difference between spirit and Soul? Or is it basically the same?

modest badger
#

There was in older editions, but now the distinction is vague.

In older editions some races (like elves) had spirits, and couldn't be raised from the dead, where as some (like humans) had souls.

#

Dieties and Demigods (1980):

AD&D assumes that the anima, that force which gives life and distinct existence to thinking beings, is one of two sorts: soul or spirit. **Humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves (those beings which can have a raise dead or resurrection spell cast upon them) all have souls; all other beings that worship deities have spirits. **This latter group includes (but is not limited to) elves, orcs, half-orcs, and the other creatures specifically mentioned in the NON HUMANS' DEITIES section of this work. The DM may decide on a case-by-case basis whether other creatures have spirits and worship deities; the only parameter is that monsters with spirits must have at least on intelligence rating of Low. Please note that the following system is only a suggested one. Individual Dungeon Masters should use a different system if they find this one unsuitable.

But elsewhere in the editions spirits and souls can be used pretty interchangeably.

#

But in 5e spirits do seem different to 'souls' in usage: For example in 5e, a Familair is a 'spirit'

You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel.
Spirit guardians summons spirits. Talk with dead speaks with the Spirit not the soul:
This spell doesn't return the creature's soul to its body, only its animating spirit.

eager bay
#

Are the characters and events within the newly created Dnd-Minecraft crossover cannon and when do they take place if they are

modest badger
#

Gonna link this again:
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon

Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.

jagged apex
#

like any big IP there is never just 1 continuity, else it becomes a mess

iron saffron
eager bay
#

I’m just looking into it to deeply

tough sand
#

A DND Minecraft campaign sounds really fun

stray jasper
#

I want to know more about like the lore of the shadar kai

#

the description on d&d beyond kind of seems a little vague

#

or maybe I'm just stupid

#

either way I want to know more about them

iron saffron
#

Well, over the course of the past few editions there are three types of shadar-kai:

stray jasper
#

oh thanks

iron saffron
#

5E shadar-kai are the ones we tend to refer to now.

stray jasper
#

I don't know too much about the editions of d&d I just know that which edition you use is kind of a Hot topic

iron saffron
#

5th Edition (5E) is the latest and most popular edition of D&D.

#

D&D has been around for 49 years now.

#

This server otherwise talks about 5E in most other channels (this and #dnd-elder-editions channels are the exceptions)

eager bay
#

Do tortles have lore even?

#

outside of 2 paragraphs

modest badger
iron saffron
#

They've been around since 1E.

magic jackal
#

Not a ton but they've been around since 2e

eager bay
modest badger
#

Wiki mostly focuses on the newer lore though looks like

magic jackal
#

The wiki is not an adequate representation of the quantity of lore, it's an okay resource for finding better sources linked

iron saffron
#

You can read further with the sources cited.

magic jackal
#

If you want to read up on tortles and your main complaint is the wiki only has two paragraphs on them, maybe look into those sources cited.

eager bay
modest badger
#

The 1e source btw is Creature Catalogue 1986 p 47

fallow leaf
#

i did a bit of research on dark sun, it's such an interesting setting with so many interesting anti capitalist environmental themes but wotc wont give it another chance, and if they do i dont think they have what it takes to do it justice

#

i love dark fantasy where there's just the slightest slightest twinge of hope that things will be better and there's still people willing to try and fight for it to be better

eager bay
#

According to the lore who would win in a fight Moradin or Corellon Larethian

modest badger
#

From the wisdom of comic writers- who ever the DM wants to

maiden mortar
eager bay
#

50 years, let’s say

#

It’s a god fight so in the cosmic scale

#

it’s atleast a small amount of prep time

maiden mortar
#

Mordain The Fleshweaver

#

Lateral thinking always wins.

white ravine
eager bay
#

They both have equal power they are of the same divine level

gloomy cedar
fallow leaf
#

yeah i feel like the dark sun monsters was light confirmation they didnt plan to do anything with it

gloomy cedar
#

Could be

#

The slavery and racism themes would be hard for any larger company to include in a campaign setting these days

#

Although, I think Dark Sun could easily be done with out the racism and even the slavery

fallow leaf
#

thats their big excuse according to a guy at wotc

#

as to why they havent tried

#

id say also change the elves and make them not a romani stereotype, thats a big thing they definitely should change

#

but yeah the big themes of the setting arent about slavery or racism, it is very much about class struggles and environmentalism

#

and wotc still keeps Forgotten realms around when theres a good bit of slavery there (although theyre touching it less and less)

gloomy cedar
#

I think the biggest taboo of Dark Sun is the combination of racism and slavery. Two entire races that were created and bred as slaves

jagged apex
fallow leaf
#

yeah the muls are pretty icky as a concept and i can accept them not existing

gloomy cedar
#

I would hope they can keep muls but change all the lore

jagged apex
fallow leaf
#

i also feel like dark sun is just kinda, not in favor of d&d's brand? you cant really play an arcane caster without destroying the world, there's only one dragon in existence and he's nothing like any other dragons anywhere, and clerics are extremely different

gloomy cedar
#

Although, with the 1DD Species direction they’re getting rid of half-races entirely so muls would just be a flavored human or dwarf

fallow leaf
#

im saying itd take a lot of work to do dark sun justice and i feel wotc might be too lazy to do that

iron saffron
#

They've shown they're creatively lazy with 5E Spelljammer and 5E Dragonlance.

gloomy cedar
#

I tried Dark Sun for like 20 years.There are multiple design problems but I think all can be overcome. Perhaps the biggest issue is that if you overcome them all, how different will it be than what is already available?

jagged apex
#

after looking them up, muls are not that bad as a concept, ie half human half dwarves, to my knowledge those are on toril too, but they quickly wound up having what little fantastical blood they got from their dwarven heritage breed out, the problematic or ichy thing seems would be the slavery being so heavy and open when it was last depicted

fallow leaf
#

you'd probably need to make a few new classes for it to work, possibly epic level stuff if you want PCs to be dragons and avangions

jagged apex
#

i mean i see similarities to them and the gith

#

who were originally, at least in dnd's lore a slave race to the illithid, and they eventually revolved, i see no reason why over time the muls could not do the same

gloomy cedar
#

The gith are actually feral descendants of githyanki

#

Pretty cool lore

jagged apex
#

sounds made up

iron saffron
#

Gith are the ancestors of the githyanki and githzerai

jagged apex
#

as they were gith before they split over disagreement over how to proceed post freedom

#

if not made up, that might just be the gith of dark sun specifically

gloomy cedar
#

I only know 2e Dark Sun lore as I skipped all of 4e but in 2e there is an entire adventure detailing the origins of the Gith as a feral offshoot of descendants of Githyanki

jagged apex
#

yeah technically they are both gith and the 2 subraces at least prior to being given separate listings in Monsters of the multiverse, were githyanki and githzerai

#

well outside of darksun the gith are the 2 earlier mentioned subraces/factions before their splitting

gloomy cedar
#

The Githyanki created an outpost on Athas and the Githzerai found it and bombed Athas with psychic bombs driving the Githyanki there insane with the implication that is the cause of rampant psionics on Athas

jagged apex
#

which likely would have if not already the case in 2e, would have happened in 3e at the soonest

jagged apex
#

the rest of the multiverse such a thing is not the case

gloomy cedar
#

The 2e Dark Sun called Black Spine (I think) revolves around the origin story of the Gith on Athas

jagged apex
#

yes, key word ON ATHAS

#

meaning it is specific to that world in that setting

gloomy cedar
#

I’m not sure what your point is

#

There is nothing about the origin story of Gith on Athas that conflicts with Githyanki and Githzerai in the rest of the multiverse

iron saffron
#

You claimed the Gith are the descendants of the githyanki but that's not the case for the multiverse.

jagged apex
#

point is while what you were reffering to is true for the dark sun setting, it is not true for the rest of the dnd multiverse or the gith as the whole

gloomy cedar
#

You misunderstand my reference term

fallow leaf
#

yeah, theyre talking about dark sun, not the entire multiverse

jagged apex
#

odds are the gith of athas forgot a bulk of their history and went by the name the race went by before their split

gloomy cedar
#

I think if you replace my references to “gith” with “Athasian gith” it is more clear what I was explaining

jagged apex
gloomy cedar
#

You assumed the wrong understanding of my comments

eager bay
#

I think I am wrong about this, but wasn’t there a war between Baldur’s Gate and Waterdeep

#

300 years ago

jagged apex
#

not to my knowledge

jagged apex
#

at least was the first thing i found when searching about a war involving the 2 cities

#

so if not what you are thinking of is the closest thing potentially

iron saffron
#

Not a war between the cities but allied cities against a common enemy.

jagged apex
#

yeah, was about to say, from this though they were not at war with each other, just were the ones on the side against the forces of a bunch of Devils, Goblinoids, Orcs, and Trolls

iron saffron
#

Considering that those cities have a lot of epic level NPCs and adventurers such a war between the cities wouldn't last very long.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

War is bad for trade business.

jagged apex
#

as the present day year for the forgotten realms that we currently know of is 1495 DR

eager bay
#

I got the full on Forgotten Realms lore book from 4th edition, but

#

I’m not using, for some reason

jagged apex
#

not unreasonable given the reputation of 4e

#

especially in relation to the lore if viewing it as a linear timeline

fallow leaf
#

4e did some wacky stuff to the lore that 5e peeled back on a good bit

iron saffron
#

4E FR lore was so bad that 5E retconned a lot of it.

jagged apex
#

from my understanding on the slight meta side of things, some of the stuff being written at the time by the likes of R.A. Salvatore was written with them basically prepping when they would inevitablely be tasked with fixing it

eager bay
jagged apex
eager bay
#

4E is early 1400s

fallow leaf
jagged apex
#

eh, was not the first time, tiamat and bahamut, more so tiamat made apperances in the wizards of the coast publication of the setting to my knowledge

iron saffron
compact temple
#

Would Kelemvor be able to just.. appear somewhere? Specifically after he’s become a God? And if so, could he send someone someplace at will?

I have a character, written to be the daughter of Kelemvor, who id like to kinda.. just pop into the story

iron saffron
#

Your character is a demi-god?

compact temple
#

My character isn’t, but a character in the backstory is

iron saffron
#

Deities tend to send aspects/avatars to Toril rather appearing themselves.

compact temple
#

Gotcha. So it wouldn’t be breaking the lore to say Kelemvor sent X character to talk to my PC?

#

And X character just like.. hopped through a portal

iron saffron
#

Sure, deities send aspects/avatars or other proxies (like angels) to their most favoured worshippers.

compact temple
#

Okay cool

#

I am playing an Aasimar grave cleric that worships Kelemvor, and my characters mother is the daughter of Kelemvor. I’ve just hit level 3 and achieved Celestial Revelation, so the DM and I are working on a point where my PCs mother comes to explain what an Aasimar is and stuff. But I didn’t want to just.. make my PCs mother appear through a portal if that’s just not something they can do

iron saffron
compact temple
#

You’re not wrong, and I don’t really intend to do that rn. But in your opinion, you don’t think having X character jump through a portal and appear before my PC breaks any lore-rules?

jagged apex
#

exarchs are historically a thing too, someone who acts on a deities behalf and with their authority at least to a degree

#

though they are a 4e character in the lore, so no clue if they are still around or not

iron saffron
#

Exarchs are more of mortals blessed by their gods. Mystra's Chosen are exarchs for example.

jagged apex
#

eh

#

chosen are more so champions of their a god or gods

#

though to be fair at least according to this a chosen would be a viable candidate

eager bay
#

What’s the political system of Waterdeep, and how would I rise in it step by step?

spark haven
#

It's an oligarchy

#

I can't find specific details on how one becomes eligible for being a masked lord, though

#

But it is unlikely to be a position based on merit and consent of the governed

#

It's almost definitely a function of how wealthy and connected your family already is to the ruling powers

#

The whole point of being a masked lord is that the public doesn't know who you are, so it's not like you campaign to become one, with posters and baby-kissing.

#

how would I rise in it step by step
I suspect the answer here is "Murdering businesses and people who stand in your way"

eager bay
#

What about the position of High Lord

spark haven
#

so if you can convince all of the Masked Lords that the current Open Lord is no longer fit for duty...

eager bay
#

okay, thank you

last scaffold
#

I think based of what I read in Death Masks that the Lord's nominate other citizens of Waterdeep and they're voted on. This isn't always nobility, and many of them are business owners or guild members

last scaffold
#

So I think to rise up, really you need to impress existing masked lords some how. Even being a noteworthy adventurer might do it.

split crystal
#

So if you kill a Devil it goes back to the hells.

Does the same happen with Demons? If they are killed are they sent to the Abyss?

gloomy cedar
#

Yes

#

They only die permanently if they are killed in the Lower Planes, I believe

white ravine
#

Mhm. And they don't tend to forget the people that killed them...

gloomy cedar
#

No

#

That’s kind of their main threat: I will remember you and when I come back, I will take revenge

#

I think they are banished to the lower planes for 100 years. So, some people wouldn’t be alive anymore

white ravine
#

Its some weird number. Some say its 1 year and 1 day, some say 9 days to 99 years, some say 100 years...

split crystal
#

Elven ArchDruids to the Abyssal Chicken “How many times do I have to teach you this lesson???”

split crystal
#

Like if a group of really powerful people got together could they try to stop someone like Lolth?

gloomy cedar
#

I think so

split crystal
#

Or do Demon Lords ignore the rule and always come back?

gloomy cedar
#

Well, Lolth is a god so I’m not sure about her

split crystal
#

Didn’t she lose her Godhood then became a Demon Lord and changed her name to Lolth?

#

It’s been a while since I was on my Lolth Lore.

gloomy cedar
#

I’m not sure if she lost godhood or just also became a demon lord

white ravine
split crystal
#

I just assumed she was pulling a Vlaakith and was just making her followers claim she is currently a God

white ravine
#

Lolth would be an exception since she has a following and is an official deity

split crystal
#

Ah alright

white ravine
#

But if you kill a demon lord in the abyss (an INCREDIBLY difficult task) they're gone for good

unkempt merlin
#

She is both a god and demon lord

#

Much like how Tiamat (used to) be a god and archdevil.

last scaffold
#

Also like Asmodeus who is both a god and devil.

iron saffron
#

The demon lords try to become gods (hence promoting cultists among mortals). Some of them were briefly elevated to godhood by given lesser deity status in 2E's Monster Mythology but reverted back to non-divine in 3E.

eager bay
iron saffron
#

Orcus was killed by the drow goddess of revenge and undeath, Kiaransalee. He was reborn as Tenebrous but was destroyed by the Last Word. He was resurrected later, a high priest of his cult in a profane ritual in the Astral Plane where the bodies of dead gods float.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orcus#Deaths_&_Rebirths

jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
# eager bay Orcus keeps coming back?

long story short, he has been a potent force of undeath and almost became a god of such and not just the demon lord of it, died, came back in an undead form under a different name, that version died from not getting his full power back quick enough to where his use of the last word spell had killed/destroyed him, that version is now a vestige and so long as it exists, after orcus was later resurrected a second time, has been around ever since, it being believed by some that at the cost of ever becoming a true god again, he has made it to where he will always return in some form if he is destroyed

#

honestly that is one of the reasons why he is one of my personal favorite demon lords in the lore, dude just refuses to stay well, non-existanse, and wants to snuff out all other life in the multiverse, intelligent undead included, so he is the last will/free being in existance, anything else that is around being mindless undead that act as extensions of himself, is cool in a rather creepy way

mystic forum
#

Are there any comprehensive documents on the current cosmology of 5e? Trying to compile it & its history in google docs right now because the closest thing I can find is the Forgotten Realms Wiki.

white ravine
#

FR wiki is the best place to look tbh

eager bay
#

If a plasmoid goes down the.path of the beast where do they get their bines to do all the biting and clawing

mystic forum
#

Sandwhich Explanationl

  • Astral Plane (connected to Outer Planes through Astral Sea. Connected to Space of Material Planes through Wildspace. One way connections to any Plane or Echo via Color Pools.)
  • Outer Planes
  • Material Planes (Divided by something like Crystal Spheres and Phlogiston)
  • Material Plane
  • Echoes of Material Plane
  • Ethereal Plane (enter by becoming ethereal & exit by losing etherealness)
  • Border Ethereal
    • Border Ethereal Regions (overlaps a Material Plane, an Echo of a Material Plane, or an Inner Plane).
  • Deep Ethereal (Connections to Border Ethereal Regions via magic curtains)
    • Demiplanes
  • Inner-Planes (Elemental Vortices connect the Inner-Planes & Materials Realms)
  • Elemental Chaos
  • Elemental Planes (Cardinal directions around Material Plane)
  • Para-Elemental Planes (between Elemental Planes)

Exeptions

  • The Far Realms is a separate Onion with infinite layers of finite and amorphous size that is the farthest from reality possible (Unknown relation to rest of D&D).
  • Aebir is in a Pocket Dimension within, but out of sync with The Forgotten Realms (in Ethereal Plane).
  • Ebberon is in the Deep Ethereal.

Concerns

  • Sometimes "Material Plane" is stated instead of "Material Planes" causing me to wonder if the Forgotten Realms' Material Plane has some special significance.
  • The Inner Planes don't seem to be inside the Ethereal Plane like how the Outer Planes are in the Astral Plane. this requires me to break the rule of 3 for the sandwich explanation.
  • Earth?
  • Does Aebir have access to other planes?
  • Where is a Material Plane among the Material Planes?
  • Where are Echoes & Material Plane?
  • Does the Elemental Chaos envelopes the Inner-Planes & contains the Energy Planes, or it no longer exists & the Energy Planes envelope the planes?
  • Is Aebir in Border Ethereal or Deep Ethereal?
modest badger
#

Well one issue is that some of that is now 'outdated' lore. For example the Phlogiston and Crystal spheres no longer exist in 5e Spelljammer, and Spelljammers sail the Astral sea.

mystic forum
modest badger
#

When you stand on a Material Plane world and look up at the night sky, what you're seeing is Wildspace and,** beyond that, the Astral Sea.** Exploring these realms and the worlds they surround is the crux of a Spelljammer campaign.
-Astral Adventurer's Guide.

There is no longer crystal spheres or phlogiston. Now it's wildspace then the Astral sea.

#

Every world of the Material Plane is situated in Wildspace, or more precisely, in its own Wildspace system.
(...)
Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa.
-Astral Adventurer's Guide.

#

When trying to tackle how the planes work, lore works best within it's own setting and edition. Looking to different editions for lore can be useful for homebrewing your own, but will lead to conflicts like this. 2e when using spelljammer had Crystal Spheres and Phlogiston. 5e when using spelljammer has wildspace systems within the Astral Sea.

When not using Spelljammer, those rules can change as well. When using different edition lore the rules can change.

mystic forum
#

There needs to be some place for the Material Planes to be. Because there is no name for it yet, it should be considered the Crystal Spheres & the Phlogiston, just without retconned properties, right?

modest badger
# mystic forum Is it really explicitley stated not to exist?

Neither Crystal Sphere nor Phlogiston are ever mentioned in 5e as far as I can recall. Neither spelljammer book mentions them. Nor does the DMG.

The fact that they are explicitly left out and now the Wildspace systems are in the Astral Sea tells us that 5e no longer has them as concepts. They are no longer 'canonical'.
Even if you look at the wiki for the 'Pholigiston' you can see that the source books it's mentioned in are from 1989-1991. Perhaps with maybe a few uncited Dungeon Magazine adventures in later editions. But not 5e.

mystic forum
#

its the best we got for now. "something like the crystal spheres & phlogiston"

modest badger
#

Astral Adventure's Guide now explains how the different material planes work together within the Astral.
It's more like solar systems within a galaxy, with wildspace being the overlap between Astral Sea and the Material Plane.

mystic forum
#

but what is the gallexy?

modest badger
#

So you can either use 2e Crystal Spheres and Phlogiston or 5e Wildspace Systems and Astral Sea, or homebrew a mishmash of them.
But 'officially' 5e has no cystral spheres or Phlogiston.

mystic forum
#

then what is the gallexy that all the solar systems are in?

#

iits not the astral plane for sure. Nor the Ethereal

modest badger
#

Again:

Every world of the Material Plane is situated in Wildspace, or more precisely, in its own Wildspace system. Wildspace systems are airless oceans teeming with space-dwelling life forms, including spores, space plankton, and larger creatures that resemble fish and aquatic mammals. The ones that need air to survive either generate their own air envelopes or live in the air envelopes of other creatures.
Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa.

mystic forum
#

that just means that the Astral plane can connect to Material Planes through Wildspace

#

which doesn't explain where each Material Plane is.

modest badger
#

Travel between worlds:

World-to-world travel requires a spelljamming ship, a teleport spell, or some other kind of magic.
Within a Wildspace system, the DM must decide how long it takes a spelljamming ship to travel from one world to another.

Travel between system:

A creature or ship that wants to travel from one Wildspace system to another must cross the Astral Sea unless it has some other magical means of traveling from one world in the multiverse to another.

Wildspace systems aren't fixed in certain locations in the multiverse. Because they're constantly in motion, like corks bobbing in water, no reliable devices exist to help plot a course from one Wildspace system to another. Fortunately for travelers, the nature of the Astral Sea makes such journeys relatively easy, as discussed in the next section.

#

I'd highly recommend reading Astral Adventure's Guide for understanding how SPelljamming works in 5e

jagged apex
mystic forum
#

Wildspace Systems are just sections of Wildspace that can float around the Space of a Material Plane, right?

jagged apex
#

more or less the short of it is they are the 5e equivalent of what crystal spheres were in 2e, but without a physical barrier

mystic forum
#

so, every gallexy just exists in space divided by wildspace? Do you even need to go into the astral plane to get to the other Material Plane then?

jagged apex
#

but again, you should definitely read the sourcebook's explination as it explains the concept as one would expect

#

and if you still don't understand the concept, THEN refer to the community here

mystic forum
#

k

sharp owl
#

There aren't 'galaxies' in D&D in the sense we have them (clusters of stars orbiting a central point)

#

Think of Wildspace as being like an aura of material place that overlaps the astral sea that all wildspace systems sit in

jagged apex
#

yeah, even in 5e, wildspace and space in our own world are not one to one, was like that in 2e too

sharp owl
#

That aura extends out from a wildspace systems sun and 'stops'/fades away at two locations

  • the edge of the wildspace system (where it transitions to the astral sea)
  • the edge of worlds in wildspace (where it transitions to the material plane proper)
modest badger
#

Sorry if my analogy was confusing. I was trying to give a familiar point of reference to imagine Wildspace systems like solar systems, but then when you sail beyond them you're in the Astral Sea. But it is far more fantastical than that and Davyd's explanation is much easier to follow.

sharp owl
#

Unlike the outer planes, which have hard boundaries with the astral plane in which they "float", material planes have soft boundaries

#

Here's a quick and dirty diagram
https://imgur.com/TcQau1h.png
The purple area is the astral plane
The green and red dots are material planes
The aura around them is wildspace

#

However, the distance between them isn't fixed and also takes as much time to traverse as your familiarity with where you're going

pine reef
#

At what age would someone begin to apprentice under a wizard and try to learn if their family had the means/resources to get an early education?

sharp owl
#

Literally any age

#

If a child was born showing sorcerous talent, they might even be adopted from birth

#

It literally would depend on how much aptitude the child displays and the nature of the mage in question and how young an apprentice they are inclined to take

#

They wouldn't even need to be a child, I believe in lore there are accounts of wizards taking apprentices of all ages

pine reef
#

I understand, thank you.

mystic forum
modest badger
#

Davyd's right in that really there isn't a cut off age- after all multiclassing implies you can learn to become a wizard midadventure no matter your age just by picking some things up. 3.5 even addressed that when giving an example of how one could multiclass:

Lidda, a 4th-level halfling rogue, decides to expand her repertoire by learning some wizardry. She locates a mentor who teaches her the ways of a wizard, and she spends a lot of time looking over the shoulder of Mialee, her party’s wizard, while the latter prepares her spells each morning. When Lidda amasses 10,000 XP, she becomes a 5th-level character. Instead of becoming a 5th-level rogue, however, she becomes a 4th-level rogue/1st-level wizard.
-3.5 PHB, p.60
(Order of the Stick, a D&D webcomic, even uses this as a joke when the low int/wis bard thinks about taking wizard levels and the group wizard says that prepostrous they've been training for decades to master the art, and the bard's like 'Well if I do level up as a wizard, retroactively I've been looking over your shoulder and taking notes'.)

If about 'What age can they start or is assumed a norm', In 5e I don't think there is any real lore for such.
You have the 'Apprentice Wizard' in MPMM who is depicted as a youth perhaps 10-15 in age but nothing in the description mentions age:

Apprentices are novice arcane spellcasters who serve more experienced wizards or attend school. They perform menial work like cooking or cleaning in exchange for education in the ways of magic.

The 3.5 starting age table has ages for classes and implies that Wizards, Monks, Druids and Clerics will always be at a higher minimum starting age than other classes, for example for humans:
Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer: 16-19
Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger: 16-21
Wizards, Monks, Druids and Clerics: 17-27
If you chose to random generate your age, and does mean you start off pretty young. Of course these are only suggestions and not even current edition rules.

sharp owl
#

Usually the name of a wildspace system is derived from the setting name, so you have Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) or Greyspace (Greyhawk), but you also have wildspace systems named after the main world, so you also have Krynnspace (Dragonlance) and Athasspace (Dark Sun)

#

Think of wildspace systems like villages a couple of hundred years ago before maps were a thing; they wouldn't have hard line boundaries, you'd just get further and further away until you'd stop saying you're in the village and just in the countryside

#

And the countryside is like the astral sea

#

Every house (world) is in a village (wildspace) but not every house is in the same village

jagged apex
#

the unclear barrier/cut off between the astral and wildspace arguably is the 5e equivalent of the phlogiston, in terms of danger, granted they are different risks, but an ill prepared party can potentially die in the time it takes for them to travel

#

especially if like traditionally your wizard is the one piloting your spelljammer, once you cross over into the astral, probably good chance gunna get the attention of an astral dreadnaught, like you are ringing the dinner bell

#

plus the lack of color in the astral with everything being a sort of silvery void, and the intelligence based movement, could easily from an in universe perspective be disorienting

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

ah, must have forgotten that, cuz sadly my own game i am in has not made use of spelljamming, potentially do to one of the players in it not being much of a fan of spelljammer like at all apparently, so lack of use of it means i am remembering any given specific part of it less often than basically everything else

#

last i could recall the cut off point was simply vauge, ie you keep going and eventually you'll make the transition

unkempt merlin
#

The exact point of "transistion" is vague, but that's because wildspace is technically a region of the Astral sea already. But the region the transition happens is the silvery mist

sharp owl
#

And there's no risk, if anything the risk drops off as you pass into the astral plane as it's less densely occupied than wild space

jagged apex
#

well as i said, to me the risks are different, but still risks

jagged apex
#

"Travel by Thought Alone
A creature doesn’t need a vessel to travel through the Astral Sea. In this realm, a traveler has the option of propelling itself by thought alone. The more intelligent a creature is, the faster it can move. A creature that chooses to move in this fashion can move in any direction at a flying speed in feet equal to 5 × its Intelligence score.

Astral Sea Navigation
One doesn’t need a map to navigate the Astral Sea. Here, all creatures are blessed with directional awareness. In other words, a creature can get to where it wants to go by thinking of its destination, at which point it becomes aware of the most direct route to that location. The destination must be somewhere in the Astral Sea or in Wildspace, such as “the nearest githyanki outpost,” “the astral dominion of Hestavar,” or “Realmspace.” This directional awareness doesn’t reveal how safe the route is, and the DM decides how far away the destination is and how perilous the trek through the Astral Sea is."

modest badger
#

I suppose the flavour text implies less densely occupied, but then distance is weird in the astral so being vast and empty doesn't always meen encounters can't be as frequent as if in Wildspace:

The Astral Plane is the realm of thought and dream, where visitors travel as disembodied souls to reach the Outer Planes. It is a great silvery sea, the same above and below, with swirling wisps of white and gray streaking among motes of light like distant stars.** Most of the Astral Sea is a vast, empty expanse. Visitors occasionally stumble upon the petrified corpse of a dead god or other chunks of rock drifting forever in the silvery void. **Much more commonplace are color pools—magical pools of colored light that flicker like radiant, spinning coins.
DMG p.46

COmapred to:

Every world of the Material Plane is situated in Wildspace, or more precisely, in its own Wildspace system. **Wildspace systems are airless oceans teeming with space-dwelling life forms, including spores, space plankton, and larger creatures that resemble fish and aquatic mammals. **The ones that need air to survive either generate their own air envelopes or live in the air envelopes of other creatures.
AAG

white ravine
#

The thing about the astral is its very empty but whenever you find something there itll turn you to paste

#

Githyanki warriors on red dragons, astral dreadnoughts, illithid nautiloids, actual gods

#

Wildspace is more populated but not cluttered with walking engines of death

jagged apex
#

though i guess some could see it as less dangerous in 5e since a majority of the few potential threats in older editions have yet to be adapted to 5e

sharp owl
jagged apex
pine reef
#

Could there be a wizard-taxi service in Faerun for wealthy nobles and adventurers? Like, I want to go to this nation but I don't want to waste weeks/months of travel, can you teleport me?

grim siren
#

Sure. There is precedent for powerful mages sending people across Faerun.

unkempt merlin
#

Teleportation circles exist in many a large city in faerun

modest badger
#

The Harper's at least have a canonical teleportation circle network, but it is 'secret' and only intended to be used by them and allies. (SKT) and I'm certain I've read in older editions that cities and mage colleges and so on will likely have their own networks, but I'd need to track down those resources. You could use https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment#SpellcastingServices to work out how much a wizard might pay to teleport someone or allow access to their teleportation circle (It might be cheaper to use a circle than the actual cost to cast it).

cloud marten
#

after listening Ed Greenwood talk about Netheril Empire I started to wonder what are all ancient civilizations cross multiverse

jagged apex
#

but you easily could look up as many that have ever been published and even make that a goal/motive for a character

spark haven
# cloud marten after listening Ed Greenwood talk about Netheril Empire I started to wonder what...

makes me think of the Silurian Hypothesis, the idea that the planet is simply so old that there's been enough time for all (obvious) physical evidence of any imaginaable civilization to completely crumble into its constiuent atoms. There could've been a fully space-faring civilization living on Earth as recently as 100,000 years ago and we'd never know (without advanced chemical analysis of sedimentation throughout the rock layers) because all their concrete and steel would've rotted fully away

#

Deep time is quite a broad stretch

#

There's room for a lot to happen

jagged apex
#

the dnd multiverse we know to be canonically older than the concept of time, or at least the concept of keeping track of time on any mortal world, so ancient civilizations in an infinite multiverse like dnd's are well, infinite

#

would be like writing or reading a book with a page count of infinity

#

part of infinity is still more or less infinity XD

#

like i'd expect if there was a book in the multiverse that kept the history of the entire multiverse in real time, just the section regarding ancient civilizations would be infinite

mystic forum
#

I think I finally got the cosmology figured out!

#

Forgotten Realms Cosmology Sandwich Explanation

  • Astral Plane (connected to Outer Planes through Astral Sea. Connected to Space of Material Planes through Wildspace. One way connections to any Plane or Echo via Color Pools.)
  • Outer Planes
  • Material Plane + Echoes (Echoes in the same place, but Out of Phase. Implies a spectrum of Echoes that may or may not be connected to a Wildspace Region.)
  • Wildspace
    • Wildspace System (EX: Toril/Realmspace)
  • Ethereal Plane (enter by becoming ethereal & exit by losing etherealness when in Material Plane + Echoes & Inner Planes)
  • Border Ethereal
    • Border Ethereal Regions (overlaps a Material Plane, an Echo of a Material Plane, or an Inner Plane).
  • Deep Ethereal (Connections to Border Ethereal Regions via magic curtains)
    • Demiplanes
  • Inner-Planes (Elemental Vortices connect the Inner-Planes & Materials Realms)
    • Elemental Chaos (surrounds Elemental Planes)
    • Elemental Planes (around the Material Plane)
    • Para-Elemental Planes (between Elemental Planes)

Exceptions

  • The Far Realms is a separate Onion with infinite layers of finite and amorphous size that is the farthest from reality possible (Unknown relation to the rest of D&D).
  • Aebir, a copy of Toril, is in a Pocket Dimension in the Material Plane in the same place as Toril, but is Out of Synchrony with Toril (overlays Toril). Its Relationship with the greater cosmology is unknown (plot-hole?).
  • Ebberon is in the Deep Ethereal (not Demiplane).
  • The Shadowfell was once a Plane in the Deep Ethereal called the Plane of Shadow before it was merged with some of the Negative Energy Plane & became an Echo of the Material Plane.
iron saffron
#

Shadowfell, aka Plane of Shadows, is echo of the Material Plane, much like its counterpart the Feywild is.

maiden mortar
#

As an aside though...

#

When folks are petrified, their souls do not go to afterlife, because they're not "dead" right?

So what happens when a petrified statue erodes away to dust?

magic jackal
#

Depends, some petrification effects do just kill the individual too

mystic forum
fallow leaf
#

man astral sea stuff in 5e is so confusing

#

like is the spelljammer astral sea the same as just the normal astral plane? we have art of an astral projection next to a spelljammer, so do color pools exist in the astral sea? do ships have to deal with astral dreadnaughts?

#

how do gith deal with astral elves (slightly less important)

unkempt merlin
#

how is it confusing? spelljammer addresses a fair amount of this stuff

#

color pools exist in the astral sea yea

fallow leaf
#

right yeah, i did miss that

iron saffron
#

5E kept the Astral Sea from 4E. WotC was lazy with 5E Spelljammer and used the Astral Sea because "sea" is in it.

unkempt merlin
#

thats not why but sure

fallow leaf
#

wish they went into more detail, also i forget if color pools are one way or not

iron saffron
#

They could have kept it with just Wildspace even without the phlogiston.

fallow leaf
#

itd be cool if they werent for outer planes at least, just have a bunch of demons crash your spelljammer

iron saffron
#

The entire point of Spelljammer is to travel between worlds of the Material Plane and not between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes via Astral Plane/Sea.

tame locust
# spark haven makes me think of the Silurian Hypothesis, the idea that the planet is simply so...

As a professional archaeologist, I can assure you it would take far longer than 100,000 years for even iron and concrete to fully disappear. We still have wood artifacts from that long ago, and wood rots faster than iron. Any spacefaring society, even from the silurian, which is about 430,000,000 years ago, there would definitely still be gold artifacts, and seeing as how we have petrified fossils, some artifacts would be preserved as fossils.

unkempt merlin
maiden mortar
iron saffron
#

You don't use Astral Projection to go from Krynn to Toril...

unkempt merlin
#

unfortunately that has always been possible

#

what with material planes being all the same

mystic forum
mystic forum
maiden mortar
#

🤔 Hm, cosmological weirdness.

mystic forum
#

Gonna make an actual sandwhich model to beat even the Great Wheel model eventually

#

with an onion on the side to represent the Far Realms

#

I just need to learn to draw

fallow leaf
#

pathfinder's plane art does kinda look like a sandwich with the void (negative energy plane) and creation forge (positive energy plane) sandwiching the first world (fey world) and netherrealm (shadowfell) in between the universe

jagged apex
#

and personally i did not find it at all confusing

jagged apex
#

heck with infernal machines in the hells, including the flying fortresses zariel has and how the balor named Straoth has a whole layer of the abyss that is basically a massive ship that is all but a spelljammer in name

#

so even without homebrewing, it would be perfectly possible for demons or other fiends could attack your spelljammer and basically try to rob you

#

i could especially see the yugoloths doing this if there are any that get bored between deals with their normal customers of the blood war

#

would be kind of cool to see some yugoloth pirates show up if we ever get a second published spelljammer adventure during 5e's life cycle

iron saffron
#

No, I don't want WotC to touch Spelljammer again.

jagged apex
#

not really relevant, i am just saying he have had all the elements needed for such a thing for a long time last i checked and it could make a neat premise to show some of what is going on in the multiverse with stuff like the resurgence of spelljamming on worlds like toril

mystic forum
#

D&D 5e Forgotten Realms Cosmology Sandwich Model Explanation
Positive Energy Plane & Negative Energy Plane encompass the sandwich like buns.

  • Astral Plane (connected to Outer Planes through Astral Sea. Connected to Space of Material Planes through regions connecting to Wildspace Systems. One way connections to any Plane or Echo via Color Pools.)
  • Outer Planes
  • Material Plane + Echoes of Material Plane (Echoes are in the same place, but Out of Phase. They are reflections of the Material Plane. Connections between the Material Plane & its Echoes form naturally. An unknown spectrum of Echoes may have varying levels of connectivity to any Wildspace System.)
  • Wildspace Systems (isolated solar systems like Realmspace that make up Wildspace)
  • Ethereal Plane (enter by becoming ethereal & exit by losing etherealness when in Material Plane, its Echoes, or Inner Planes)
  • Border Ethereal Regions (overlaps a Material Plane, an Echo of a Material Plane, or an Inner Plane).
  • Deep Ethereal (Connections to Border Ethereal Regions via magic curtains)
    • Demiplanes (can sometimes become entire Planes)
  • Inner-Planes (Elemental Vortices connect the Inner-Planes & Materials Realms)
    • Elemental Chaos (surrounds Elemental Planes)
    • Elemental Planes (around the Material Plane)
    • Para-Elemental Planes (between Elemental Planes)

Exceptions

  • The Far Realms is a separate Onion with infinite layers of finite size far from reality (Unknown relation to the rest of D&D).
  • Abeir, the twin of Toril (Abeir-Toril was split into Toril & Abeir), is in a Pocket Dimension in Realmspace, but is Out of Synchrony with Toril (overlays Toril. Has its own separate parallel and fundamental planes?).
  • Eberron is in the Deep Ethereal (not Demiplane).
  • The Shadowfell was once a Plane in the Deep Ethereal called the Plane of Shadow before it was merged with some of the Negative Energy Plane & became an Echo of the Material Plane.
mystic forum
# mystic forum **D&D 5e Forgotten Realms Cosmology Sandwich Model Explanation** *Positive Energ...

The Sandwich model is composed of multiple layers like a sandwich. This layering is meant to show which layers are connected, except for the Energy Planes which encompass the sandwich without meshing with the other ingredients. The Astral Plane layer is on top of the Material Plane layer. The Material Plane layer is the center layer & above the Inner Planes layer that surround it. The Ethereal Plane is the bottommost layer underneath the Material Plane & Inner Planes.
The Buns (Energy Planes), the Cheese (Astral Plane), the Meats (Material Plane + Echoes), the Onion/Pickles (Inner Planes), and the Sauce (Ethereal Plane) form the sandwich.

jagged apex
#

not sure what the point is of having a fan made cosmology shared in the lore chat, seems more like a thing for #homebrew or in #dm-world-building even if you are using a version of the forgotten realms

#

like would not be the first time a homebrew thing was just a slight alteration to the published settings, like aquisitions inc. they use a alternative version of the forgotten realms

#

also while i am not gunna go into it, i can see even at a glance a few flaws in this "sandwich cosmology"

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

not really

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

especially since some of the info is not entirely accurate

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

like for one the positioning of the elemental chaos

#

honestly, a sandwitch is conceptually a poor analogy for the existing 5e cosmology

#

honestly if anything a pizza would be more accurate if trying to for some reason use food

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

no

mystic forum
mystic forum
jagged apex
#

the elemental chaos last i checked is the center of the elemental planes, where they all meet, the prime material plane being sort of more inward to that or occupying the same place but on a different plane/dimsention, and the positive and negative energy planes are at the edges of the cosmology

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

no

#

cuz it is again being used in planescape which is coming out in only a few weeks

#

honestly if anything i find your sandwich analogy even more confusing than the greatwheel already is

mystic forum
#

read the section about the Inner Planes

jagged apex
#

ok, in regards to the position of the elemental chaos at least, i admit, i stand corrected

mystic forum
#

Energy Planes were destroyed when Shar created the Shadowfell during the latest calamity that changed the edition to 5e

jagged apex
#

still, i find your homebrewed cosmology model, still more confusing than the existing default/most in universe popular cosmology model

mystic forum
#

so I decided to start with a sandwhich

#

and see what works from there

jagged apex
mystic forum
jagged apex
#

either technically your "sandwich cosmology" model is still homebrew as it is not official material and is fan made/custom

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

the information is not the factor here, never claimed it was

mystic forum
#

I just compiled a bunch of info. the sandwhich model is just my way of sharing it.

#

its like using a powerpoint presentation instead of a book

jagged apex
#

also checking the source, that info you were reffering to is from a 4e sourcebook

#

5e is undid most of what was not well received lore wise

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

yes, the very line that mentions it

#

that is the book it comes from

mystic forum
#

a cannon event that changed the planes into 5es current model. Each edition features a cataclysm that leads into the next edition.

#

it explains why 5e doesn't have energy planes

#

& quasi-elemental planes

jagged apex
#

except it does

#

both energy planes are refferenced multiple times in 5e published materials

mystic forum
#

& why the world axis model is no longer accurate

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

the one that lead into 5e was the second sundering

#

you are confusing it and the spellplauge

mystic forum
#

oooohhhhh, thanks!

jagged apex
#

if anything canonically your shandwich, would be more accurate if you put it in a blender or just threw it into air and let it land

#

at least if you intend to despite the existing cosmology's structure

#

but either way your model was flawed cuz you mixed up 2 similar yet unrelated events

#

wrong order of information leads to flawed records

mystic forum
#

The Material Plane and Its Echoes. The Feywild and the Shadowfell are reflections of the Material Plane.
The Transitive Planes. The Ethereal Plane and the Astral Plane are mostly featureless planes that serve primarily as pathways to travel from one plane to another.
The Inner Planes. The four Elemental Planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water), plus the Elemental Chaos that surrounds them, are the Inner Planes.
The Outer Planes. Sixteen Outer Planes correspond to the eight non-neutral alignments and shades of philosophical difference between them.
The Positive and Negative Planes. These two planes enfold the rest of the cosmology, providing the raw forces of life and death that underlie the rest of existence in the multiverse.

#

I see now. I'm going to make the energy planes as the buns

jagged apex
#

lol

#

clearly the positive energy plane would be represented by white bread 😛

dull portal
#

does ALL magic come from the weave?

mystic forum
#

no

jagged apex
#

not sure what the darkest colored bread would be for the bottom though, maybe that one is just toasted to a near crisp? but i degree, is still a homebrew cosmology model so likely not the best place to go into it

mystic forum
mystic forum
jagged apex
#

cuz without the weave, if you try to use raw magic, you are more or less gunna be setting off the equivilent of a magical nuke regardless of the spell intended

#

mortals and raw magic do not mix well

mystic forum
#

elves can do it with Elven High magic

#

oh wait NM

#

they just change the shape of the weave permanantly

jagged apex
#

closest thing you got to a "safe" way to use raw magic is the wild magic sorcerer and barbarians

mystic forum
#

while leveled spells is like making origami with the weave

mystic forum
#

Gods too

jagged apex
#

i said RAW magic

mystic forum
#

Genies

jagged apex
mystic forum
jagged apex
#

if anything those creatures use a specific variation of raw magic and thus it is no longer raw magic

#

and gods, well they don't do it at all, they and pladans technically are tapping into the same sources of divine magic

mystic forum
#

beings made of magic, which I think genies are, can use raw magic, I think.

#

Gods too

jagged apex
#

is just pladins being mere mortals have a much more limited capacity than gods

mystic forum
#

although Gods are not made of magic, just ascended souls

jagged apex
#

that is a theory

#

and again, they don't use raw magic, their magic is more often than not divine magic which is a very specific and seperate kind of magic

mystic forum
#

but don;t gods create divine magic from raw magic or somethinglie that?

jagged apex
#

nope

dull portal
#

thx i love u both

jagged apex
#

basically the sort of spheres of certain concepts that were mentioned in past editions more so in the early days, conceptually a similar thing exists where the gods are always hooked up to them and can use that power as their own, again, like a paladin who via sheer will and conviction is literally tapping into the same source of divine power as the gods themselves, but again, as they are a mere mortal and not a god of any kind, they can only channel so much and to a lesser extent, which is likely why they mechancially are half casters

#

though seems like they have not been keeping it very clearly defined as all the sources on the wiki article are from past editions

mystic forum
#

I wish that metaphysical concepts + will equaled divine magic.

#

I see that that is not the case, it's just power being granted that still uses the weave

jagged apex
#

more or less, like i said in recent years the term does not seem to have been kept up to date and well explained

mystic forum
#

yeah

jagged apex
#

like the most clear definition i recall of divine magic being explained is simply the magic of the gods, which could easily be viewed as magic that they give their followers, or the same magic they draw from

#

historically divine spells like druid, cleric, and the like of up to 2nd level are from what i found during my research for making a ettin rune magic user who was effectively part divine caster and part barbarian, are what a mortal can channel of divine magic without further aid from a god, which to my knowledge lines up with the way the paladin get's it's magic in 5e, presumably much like eberron where the gods are less definitive beings, their magic of the divine is rooted in the belief of the user, so presumably, though not exactly one to one, one could say that the core of divine magic boils down to belief

#

as with a paladin part of the way they channel their magic is the BELIEF in their oaths and what they stand for, which is part of why they say often this is the paladin making a more formal agknowledgement of what has always been in their heart

#

and the gods gain power and even in most cases need to survive from belief and worship in themselves or at the very least the things and concepts in their portfolios

#

so while it may be unclear, is safe to say that a major part of divine magic is rooted in belief

#

one could potentially think of this as channeling the magic of certain planes of existence, like the outer planes, given how they are metaphysical in nature and rooted in the alignments of mortal life across the multiverse

mystic forum
#

cool

#

I like the idea that mortal faith can be used for magic

mystic forum
jagged apex
#

honestly, makes me love 5e paladins, cuz is so anime and captain american esc, like the warrior who wields the power of their heart

#

like captain america would make a top tier paladin in dnd 5e conceptually, as morally dude never quites or backsdown

mystic forum
#

agreed

#

hey @jagged apex How should I go about trying to change my sandwich model to a more accurate mode type? Should I remake the Great Wheel Model? Got any advice on how to do so?

jagged apex
#

idk, personally i see no problem with the existing cosmology model go to so i don't see a need to change it, and again lore chat is likely not the best place to discuss it

mystic forum
#

ok

odd fossil
#

I am making a lizardfolk who has a level in sorcerer due to their divine bloodline (spiritual conduit/reincarnation/bloodline? of kecuala, one of their gods)

In the lizardfolk god story there was two gods, kecuala and semunya and semunya just wanted to hunt kill and eat, kecuala thought more and didn't like that they kept getting in trouble cause semunya kept hunting and killing. They eventually thought so hard about the horrible things that semunya did that they split into two (the first two lizardfolk).

What would their affinity be for my lizardfolk to draw from? Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, or Neutrality?

iron saffron
#

I never heard of Kecuala

#

Supposedly Kecuala is/was Semuanya's mate.

odd fossil
#

Yeah

#

I'm not sure about what book kecuala comes from, but it should be the same Semuanya comes from

iron saffron
#

Probably Greyhawk lore.

odd fossil
#

But it specifically states that Kecuala hated what Semuanya was doing cause they kept getting in trouble for all the things she was doing, and they thought about it so hard that they split into two (the first lizardfolk). I am thinking they're more of a lawful since they were worrying about getting in trouble cause of Semuanya?

iron saffron
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

#

No idea on Kecuala. I can't find any stats on that god.

#

Lizardfolk have been typically neutral throughout the editions (except for lizard king/queen who were evil for some reason...)

odd fossil
#

Okay, thanks for the info, assumed Kecuala wouldn't have a stat block with a official affinity since they're y'know split into two.

jagged apex
#

fun fact, the lizardfolk call themselves Kecuala do to this being in their creation myth, which do to them traditionally not having a written history has been passed on from generation to generation by word of mouth

jagged apex
#

they were basically lizardfolk based cambions of Sess'innek

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

as for alignment, kecuala likely would have been true neutral like Semuanya

steady verge
#

Is fate a living being?

#

I’m going to use a character/being named Fate in a Ravenloft campaign but I’m curious if they already exist

modest badger
#

Istus comes close from Greyhawk. There definitely gods of Fate around, and Fate as a domain in older editions.

steady verge
#

Alrighty cool. I didn’t want to use the card system so I’m just using a person as that function

jagged apex
#

from what i can find there is no individual being named fate

#

at least in published materials, but sounds like could easily be one of those vurtue names tieflings sometimes give themselves

#

in forgotten realms there has been about 12, at least according to the wiki, deities associated with the fate domain

mystic forum
#

do Elementals have souls or bodies? Do creatures from the Inner Planes have souls/bodies?

jagged apex
#

not in the traditional sense

#

elementals are more so sentient elemental energy that can occupy associated elements to make a body, at least as the general norm for such life

#

like is drastically different from the mortal definition and understanding of life

iron saffron
#

They have more like essences than mortals' souls.

jagged apex
#

but to my knowledge at the very least even those with physical bodies at all times, they still rather than a soul have elemental energy which makes up their very being

unkempt merlin
#

They do have physical bodies, generally made up of both magic and their element

jagged apex
#

like when for say a water weird or water elemental becomes just a normal pool of water, basically that is cuz their elemental energies are too dispersed to animate it, so larger ones like the leviathan have massively larger amounts of this energy that they are all composed of

unkempt merlin
#

To quote the monster manual

Living Elements. On its home plane, an elemental is a bodiless life force. Its dim consciousness manifests as a physical shape only when focused by the power of magic.

jagged apex
#

though some we don't always get this sort of implication or it gets implied they always have a physical form like the slamanders, fire snakes, azer, ect...

unkempt merlin
#

Correct

jagged apex
#

but broadly the norm for elemental life is living elemental energy

#

sort of like the elemental damage based living spells we get in eberron, is a similar concept

unkempt merlin
#

There are also specific forms elementals can be bound into as well

Powerful magic can bind an elemental spirit into a material template that defines a specific use and function. Invisible stalkers are air elementals bound to a specific form, in the same way that water elementals can be shaped into water weirds.

jagged apex
#

granted is different, but there are similarities

unkempt merlin
#

Other than "energy that becomes a creature"

jagged apex
#

yeah that is what i mean, where the creature's concept of life is tied to the energy that it is made of

#

main example i was thinking of was living lightning bolt

iron saffron
#

Living spells are constructs, not elementals.

jagged apex
#

i know, as i said, they are different, but there are some similarities, idk maybe i am just not explaining it as well as i think i am

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

anyways the point is more often than not elemental life is tied to the energies of that element as they exist in dnd

#

and any sort of soul or bodies will not really be as we mortals would define them

unkempt merlin
#

They do have spirits/souls though

jagged apex
#

these energies are also presumably used to some extent with certain elemental magics and spells

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

the elemental energy that makes up their being, their sentience, is what one might call a soul for a mortal

#

is kind of like if your soul and your conciousness were the same thing

iron saffron
#

Essence?

jagged apex
#

yeah

#

at least i think that might be the proper term

iron saffron
#

Mortals' souls go to the afterlife in the Outer Planes. Elementals that die just get reabsorbed by their home elemental plane.

jagged apex
#

their energies basically dispersed, and combined by others if consumed, like one elemental can grow in power by consuming/absorbing another's energies, eventually these sort of things can lead to things like the elder elementals

#

their ways of how life works is just fundimentaly different from a mortal's is why a magmin will be rather innocent despite blowing alive or burning someone alive, for them they are not doing anything wrong and death as we know it would be a foren concept

#

their equivilent to dying is their energies basically being spread/dispursed too thin for them to really maintain consiousness or life of some sort

#

honestly AJ Pickett explains it a lot better in his videos where he brings it up or uses it to compare similar creatures than i do ^^;

mystic forum
#

This is really helpful, thanks!

hazy fox
#

Is there any different beer types in Dungeons and Dragons, like Lager or Dark Beer?
This is just me casting a wider net on lore since I am also accounting Greyhawk and Dragonlance along with Forgotten Realms.
Just that Warhammer Fantasy and Witcher had those, but probably writers basing that aspect from Central and Eastern European's beer culture with former coming from British.

jagged apex
cloud marten
#

it would help a lot if other DnD setting creators than just Ed Greenwood were passionate and shared they insight like he does

unkempt merlin
#

They do

#

Keith Baker does plenty

#

Matt Mercer obviously does as well

feral lintel
#

😄

sharp owl
#

As to Weiss and Hickmann

#

In fact, I can't think of a D&D setting creator who doesn't love talking about their setting

feral lintel
#

Lore builders make lore for a reason

grim siren
#

I was going to say yeah Keith is great about their world building.

cloud marten
#

okay I will look into Keith Baker interviews

unkempt merlin
#

He has a whole blog and multiple other books (just for 5e alone) where he has more stuff

#

Even more if you go further back in time

maiden mortar
#

The Blog is excellent

grim siren
#

Keith and Ed's works on the DMsGUILD just outshines everything WOTC has put out in terms of setting guides.

cloud marten
#

which is why them talking about they settings is needed since WotC doesn't care about that

eager bay
#

hey lads

feral lintel
#

heya

jagged apex
grim siren
#

Matt is also more than likely much much more busy than people who's careers are writing, and being a librarian. Not to mention responding to one fan's question could set a precedent that as a public figure he probably does not want to do.

feral lintel
#

isn't he a proffessional voice actor too?

unkempt merlin
#

Just because he doesn't answer questions doesn't mean he isn't very actively developing and providing information on the setting

grim siren
#

And also writes, and designer on modules, and also overseeing darrington press content, and managing parts of the critical role company.

jagged apex
#

i am just saying, has been harder for me at least personally to get info about their setting from matt than it was with ed or keith

grim siren
#

Kieth also has 15-20 years on Matt.
Ed has 40-50 years.

Information on those settings are going to be more readily available.

unkempt merlin
#

Getting personal requests answered is also... quite different than the statement that originally prompted this

cloud marten
#

yes very different

unkempt merlin
#

Which isn't even to say Matt has never done it (he has a handful of times I can recall), just not nearly as often or (more importantly frankly) as in depth. The latter of which is most likely for reasons related to the company side of things more than anything if I had if guess

feral lintel
#

he also has a reaaaaally large fanbase

iron saffron
#

Didn't/isn't Keith Baker "retiring" from publishing more Eberron stuff?

unkempt merlin
#

Yes and no

#

Publishing is a soft yes, writing about eberron no, he still answers questions about eberron plenty

grim siren
#

True if matt gave away all the lore on X then that would be harmful to buying books. lol. Ed himself is still regularly testing various NDAs that WOTC will never explore. So NDAs get lifted and Ed talks about it.

iron saffron
#

I'm surprised he still has NDAs...

unkempt merlin
#

RIP those other contest runner ups from when eberron was made

jagged apex
#

i know that in regards to eberron keith and wizards of the coast have differing continuities, with keith's spelljamming making still real recent that nobody in eberron who has used one has managed to get one working well enough to get anywhere near the end of their space

grim siren
#

I am not. If WOTC wants to explore something they don't want the "Creator" exploring it on his own.

jagged apex
grim siren
#

Yup the NDAs are for everything large swathes of Faerun to individual items and characters.

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

I saw a recent Youtube video by Ed that he said the NDA for Susprina Arkhenneld lapsed so he could talk about her.

jagged apex
cloud marten
#

I still need to watch that one

#

listening Ed talk about FR is so addictive

grim siren
#

According to Ed a lot of the NDAs were for things that were handed out other writers and those things never materialized. But the NDAs stayed because there was no reason to get rid of it.

jagged apex
#

there is keith baker's own continuity and then there is the one published by wizards of the coast

unkempt merlin
grim siren
jagged apex
#

was not really trying to claim they were

unkempt merlin
#

Keith has multiple of his own continuities to boot

jagged apex
#

honestly, i am curious how keith adapts the concept of planescape to eberron if he does do so like he did with spelljammer, cuz can't exactly plug in a self contained cosmology into sigil proper, since that kind of defeats the whole point arguably of it being hidden away from the rest of the multiverse

#

(my personal theory is that said cosmology is basically the largest and most complex demiplane ever do to the dragons that created it and is hidden away in the deep ethereal)

unkempt merlin
#

He connects it pretty much the same as he has always connected eberron to the multiverse. Cause that's all planescape is as a whole: the multiverse

jagged apex
#

eh, i am still kind of looking forward to what he winds up having to say on the matter if he does

iron saffron
#

But 5E Planescape is pretty much just Sigil...

grim siren
#

TBF the OG box set was just sigil and the outlands.

unkempt merlin
#

Because sigil has always been a focal point in the multiverse

jagged apex
#

looks at the gatetowns and the outlands that are mentioned just as much so far if not maybe nearly as much as sigil and have confirmed backgrounds tied to them

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

no it was in reference to oldman's remark

#

like saying 5e planescape is just gunna be sigil is pretty much inaccurate

grim siren
#

The biggest difference is in 5e. Settings other than FR really don't get continued support.

jagged apex
#

obviously is gunna be the main focus though, but there is very much still more to 5e planescape than the city of doors

grim siren
#

So we are more than likely not going to get a book focused on the lower planes. Or the Upper Planes, Or the Conflict planes.

jagged apex
#

as the hold saying goes, never say never, if the fandom keeps talking about it and implying the desire for it, eventually the suits are bound to figure out we want it and be willing to greenlight such books, only time will tell

cloud marten
#

besides of FR now what have been settings that have gotten focus in past?

grim siren
#

Well in previous editions Most settings got multiple books and adventures.

jagged apex
#

mainly greyhawk and eberron to my knowledge, if not counting 4e, cuz it's default setting was just a mess literally an incomplete setting

iron saffron
#

WotC knows 3rd parties will fill the gaping holes of lore and rules on DMs Guild.

grim siren
#

Ahhh nerath. Thanks Mr. Wyatt.

cloud marten
#

oh 4E had it's own default setting

grim siren
#

Spelljammer had a dozen supplments

jagged apex
#

yep, personally i like to think that now a days it is basically akin to the far shore in marvel comics, basically a cosmic dumping grounds for ideas

grim siren
#

Dragonlance had many many supplements. the duel between it and FR is like Casette and 8 Track.

jagged apex
#

but that is more headcanon than anything to be honest

cloud marten
#

GH is one that I would expect getting support alongside with FR with it possibly being very first setting

grim siren
#

Second setting

#

First was Blackmoor

iron saffron
#

I rather have the creators like Ed and Keith update their respectively campaign settings on DMs Guild than WotC do it officially...

cloud marten
#

ah right Blackmoor

jagged apex
#

honestly for a while they likely are gunna avoid putting out specific settings, excluding adventures, since part of spelljammer 5e and monsters of the multiverse was kicking the door open on the published side into the multiverse after years of people takling about being tired of being confined not only to one setting, but only a specific fraction of one world in that setting

grim siren
#

and Greyhawk. sadly I don't ever see it coming back. WOTC is trying their best to distance themselves from Gary Gygax for good or for ill.

So they are less likely to introduce GH. Hells, when Saltmarsh came out I remember the community management team Stressingthat saltmarsh was not a greyhawk module. but setting neutral.

jagged apex
#

so basically the answer they came up with was to go to the opposite extreme, thus heavyly started leaning into the general multiverse of dnd 5e over any one published setting

jagged apex
grim siren
#

Multiverse is so hot right now with marvel. Plus it allows them to work with little accountability to prestablished writings.

grim siren
jagged apex
#

honestly, marvel just brought it to the front of public conciousness

#

they are from the first to popularize it, but the concept is definitely at an all time high if i had to guess

#

i just imagine now that any shifters you find on toril, easily rather than being from eberron could have simply migrated from the gatetown that is tied to the beast lands, after their recent article of how to tweak some creatures to be themed more with one of the planes, which i found interesting

iron saffron
#

Yeah, 5E campaign books do have snippets on running in non-FR settings like GH and DL.

jagged apex
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i could also see this being a way they could bring back the dekanter goblins on a wider scale since otherwise those rino horned gobos are only found in a specific location which can be rather limiting

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plus, playing a goblin path of the beast barbarian in my saturday games, i may or may not just be on a goblin high and want more goblin stuff in published materials 😛

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and we kind of did get some with the ones in the newer phandelver thing, but as the devs said themselves that book if anything was designed around the illithid

cloud marten
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gobbos and hobgobbos are nice in that even if setting doesn't have orcs it has surely those two

jagged apex
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well especially in more recent years they are more associated with one another as part of goblin kind, rather than with orcs

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granted such relationships are still a thing, just is not the norm or default nessissarily

cloud marten
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there is also some goblins on MtG side that they could bring to DnD like akki goblins and mog goblins

feral lintel
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yessir

cloud marten
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especially mog goblins since those are opposite to regular goblins

jagged apex
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and monsters of the multiverse gave us some insight into that time before maglubiyet basically murder hoboed his way to the top of the goblinoid pantheons

feral lintel
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indeed

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goblins used to be fey

cloud marten
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yup there could be so many more different types of goblins than just typical goblins

jagged apex
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i just like to imagine know that because of that, the saying "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" was invented by a goblin in the grand history of dnd's cosmos

feral lintel
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PFFFFT

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Works well with Fury of the Small

jagged apex
jagged apex
maiden mortar
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Need some adventures based around the idea of monstrous PCs

jagged apex
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all the more possible with the more multiversal approach

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no reason i can't see that being the basis for an entire setting's norms, basically flip the stereotype on it's head

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as i recall the world setting made by the guy who made the gith also had such a thing where monsterous humanoids were welcomed adventurers

jagged apex
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ooh, looking at the article that gives us a look at the table of contents for the new sigil books, seems some archons, more modrons, more githzerai, and two notable ones i find interesting are what i recognize as types of fiends from older editons, the Baernaloth and Maelephant, now have official 5e adaptations, on top of the stuff we already knew we'd be getting like the time dragon and the planar incarnates

jagged apex
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kind of hope the maelephants remain these fiendish hulking elephant men, though i can see reason why they might make them more animal like in appearance since to my knowledge they are sort of opposites to the hollyphant

cloud marten
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oh there are other elephant people than just loxodons

jagged apex
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yeah, like forgotten realms have the loxo

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basically the same mechanically as the loxodon from mtg, but with 2 trunks that CAN be used for more delicate manipulation of things as effectively allowing them to do things that otherwise would need their hands for even if their hands are full

iron saffron
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Aren't the loxodon just the 5E version the loxo?

jagged apex
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nope

iron saffron
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Oh, the loxodon is from MtG

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(I don't care about MtG since I don't play it)

jagged apex
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but from what i heard from AJ pickett's lore video on them, there is a connection to the two and that basically saying the two are more or less the same, would offend both parties

cloud marten
jagged apex
iron saffron
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(I've been mistaken for Japanese and Filipino by Japanese and Filipino, respectively)

jagged apex
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well, point is, while the differences might be minimal to an outsider looking in, the two see the differences between them like night and day

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but honestly with some slight tweaks mechanically, one can easily use the loxodon from the ravnica sourcebook to play a loxo in 5e, like the mechanical differences are super minimal

jagged apex
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3e artwork for them looks very intimidating and i love it

cloud marten
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I know that Spelljammer has rhino people but are there others as well?

jagged apex
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rhino people?

cloud marten
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right