Is this supposed to be registering fuel cell, main bus, and pyro bat voltages when everything is shutdown in cold and dark status.
#powered voltmeter while cold and dark
hardy narwhal
hardy narwhal
ok...also. for shits and giggles, cold and dark. everthing is off.
enabled CB's for lighting, flood and numeric/integral (p226)
enable CB's for inverters 1,2,3 (p275)
enabled CB's for inverter control 1,2,3 (p5)
turned on AC inverter 1 and 2
enabled inverter 1 to ac bus 1
enabled inverter 2 to ac bus 2
ac inverter 3 is off and not set to either bus.
fuel cells are all off.
no batteries have been connected.
told tower to disconnect tower power.
inverter is still running, even though there is no internal power source connected, no batteries and no fuel cells.
yet...voltmeter is showing fuel cells, main bus providing about 27-28 volts
main buses consuming about 10 amps
fuel cells providing 5-7 amps each.
this with all cells off and no batterys connected ( bat bus a and b are zero volts and zero amps.)
it seems that there is a hard coded power source in the capsule?
possible sources of power?
The Eye of Harmony from Doctor Who
Iron man's Arc Reactor
Ghost buster proton packs?
WAAAGH!
Transformer's All-Spark?
The Loc-Nar?
perhaps there is a ghost in the machine?
going to see what happens when i launch
hardy narwhal
i was able to launch with no batteries or fuel cells on.....I invoked bat a, b, c failures...nothing...i invoked fc1, 2, 3 fail...THEN power went out.
restarted mission, from cold and dark....again...fuel cells are powered even though they are switched off.
i did a fail on the fuel cells, that registered and they lost power as expected.
so what i suspect. when "loading panel state" also make sure that fuel cells are turned off. this step to add it to panel init may have been missed with changes to electrical systems
hardy narwhal
so here, i realized the barberpoles for the FC's are not working until you enable the CB's for them.
I do that....they are all "off"
but ...there is power over the FC's for the ship. this power is supplying power to main A and B.
i tell tower to disconnect power...i still have power.
but..if i i start in space. I can turn these off.
I think...that this has something to do with my bus undervolt messages I was getting a half hour or after insertion. I think i was being fooled into thinking that the FC's were on. instead i was running completely on battery nd they were not being charged.
I read that someone metioned having to "reset" the FC's to get rid of the MB undervolt warning.
i think doing that actually turns them "on" by turning them off then on again after getting into orbit.
i'm going to play with this theory.
hardy narwhal
ah..ok..plot thickens.
- turned on light CB's. -> lights on.
- turned on FC bus control -> BP indicators on FC's
- told tower to turn off power-> lights are off, no power to ship....but FC volts still show 27v.....but power IS off.
going to try this again..but not turn on the FC's bus control CB's
ok ok ok....FC power in the game engine is tied to the FC status indicators.
i suspect that the FC state is being stored in the UI for the FC's and not in it's own variable separate from the UI .
two scenarios:
test one (good state)
starting scenario C&D.
Turn on the flood light CB's
Turn on fuel cell CB's for Bus Control.
verify that all 6 fuel cell status indicators are BP's (off)
call tower to turn off power. lights will turn off.
test two (bugged state)
starting scenario C&D.
Turn on the flood light CB's
call tower to turn off power.
lights stay on.
turn on CB's for Fuel cell Bus Control.
verify that all 6 fuel cell status indicators are all grey (on) and unable to control them.
conclusion. the state of the FC's bus control's which control the state of the FC's status indicators must be enabled before disconnecting ship power from tower. else, the FC status become bugged and undetermined.
hardy narwhal
so now...i can actually create a TRUE cold and dark startup. with absolutely NO power. using battery to jump start the inverters, which then jump starts the cold and dark fuel cells.
and i think i may have found a bug with inverter startup....
hardy narwhal
ok figured out but in the inverter startup as well.
will post 2 pics first....
for the inverters 1 and 2, these CB's must be on(closed)
but. once the inverter is on (and as you can see powering intergral lighting) the only cb's that matter are the inverter power from main a and main b.
the inverter control and the bat relay bus CB's become irrelevant and thier state no longer matters...the inverter is now powered and regardless of the inverter control and bat relay bus CBs the inverter can be turned off and on and it will still work.
but the inverter will only work if those cb's are closed at least once.
so...to prove this , i'm going to redo this scenario...and before i turn the inverter on..i will toggle the inverter and bat relay bus CB's once and that should be enough to allow me to turn on the inverter as long as the inverter power CB's are closed.....
yea..so thats that...these are like "use me once, then forget about me, i dont to anyting else after that"
ok well the battery relay bus is needed to be able to toggle the fuel cells on and off
and the bat charger to ac1 or ac2 does not seem to function....the battery charge dial works independent of the switch state.
that is enough for tonight.
marble surge
You can always launch with no power. The Saturn is independent
I'll take a look in NASSP to see the correct behavior is
But my guess is that you have some circuit breakers connected to batteries
You don't need the bus ties on to draw from the batts. But if every ch is pulled I see no reason why the gauge is metered unless it is hard wired with no disconnect
Which may be possible because that's how mercury is iirc
hardy narwhal
I'm sorry. I dumped alot of posts as I was testing.
in real life, I dont think there would have been any way to launch the saturn in a completely powered off configuartion.
by completely i mean: no fuel cells, no batteries, no tower umbilical.
I am talking ZERO power.
my testing showed that these are the steps needed to truly get the capsule powered COMPETLY off from the begining of the cold and dark freeplay scenario.
after loading cold and dark apollo free play scenario and wating for the panel init to finish.
perform the following in order:
-
hide the seats (they are always in the way)
-
verify that fuel cells for Main bus A and B all show grey status indicators (they will)
-
switch DC indicator dial to main bus A.
you should see it read something around 27 volts. (the capsule has power going to main bus A and B via the umbilical) -
on panel 226, the fuel cell breaker panel, close the following breakers:
FUEL CELL 1 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 2 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 3 BUS CONT.
(this is the workaround to the UI bug with the fuel cell indicators)
-
the fuel cell indicators for main bus A and B should now show barber polls meaning that they are powered OFF.
-
tell the tower to "switch to internal power" ( the tower will turn off the power and now you will see the DC volt meter go to zero volts as the umbilical is disconnected from Saturn.
you are now in a TRUE powered cold and dark powered off state.
if you did the exact same steps but skipped step 4 breakers...you would still have power on the main A and B bus even after the "Switch to internal power" call.
and you would NOT be able to turn off the fuel cells.
so....the question...can I launch Saturn with absolutely no power in the CM and SM.
this is what happened.
i still get radio...bug...i have no power to radios.
it launches. bug? I would say yes. I would think there would be some control mechanisms between the launch vehicle and the CM that, if not powered, the vehiicle would not launch.
roll program? how? there is no computer..no program 1 no program 2 no program 11.
end result...it launches.....it does a roll....it pitches in the wrong direction.....stage one fuel ends...stage 2 never happens....it dips back to earth crashes into the ocean along the coast.
I feel some of the launch is scripted in the sim. but not the accent after launch.
next to test...can i launch with my workaround...on ONLY battery power...no FC's no Umbilical power.
only bat A and B.
hardy narwhal
next test. battery only accent to orbit, determine how much time it will take to get bus undervolts and systems failure.
so...from cold and dark. did the same startup I describe early to get completely cold and dark. no power no bat, no fc's.
skipped countdown to t-25m.
powered up the CM and prepped it for launch.
launched...all ok...bats are pretty low on voltage, 30-38 amp draw on each during stage 2 and stage 4 (40 at launch stage 1)... about 26 v and steady.
seco
at t+13m going to let it just coast, speed up time and see how long until i get a bus undervolt warning....
at t+2h 14m main bus down to 25v
t+3h 22m AC bus 1 fail lost power on Main bus A....main bus B still alive...switching on bat C for aux power
t+3h 24m ac power restored.....bat c connected to bat bus A and B. still not using fuel cells....still using batteries.
bat C will not last long...
t+5h 35m Main bus A is about to fail at 23v main bus B is still doing ok....
a is drawing 40 amps were b is drawing about 30 amps...so that makes sense.
i am going to disconnect bat C from bat bus B and try to get some more life out of it.
that gave me a little more juice for bus A.
bus a is now 24v....bus b is at 24.5v
fast forward again.
t+5h 49m. ac bus 2 error...
a few seconds later power flickered (literally, it was spooky as hell) and now there is no capsule power.
competely dark
marble surge
I'm sorry. I dumped alot of posts as I was testing.
in real life, I dont think ...
The rocket has its own batteries....
going to internal power only disconnects the CSM batteries from the umbilical
not the rocket
The rocket is completely independant
hardy narwhal
ok...sure. but this is all bout the CM so lets not focus on the stage 1 rocket because it has nothing to do with this bug report.
marble surge
You were complaining the rocket was launching with no CM power....
but I digress. Going to go to nassp and start pulling breakers to see if the voltmeter gets disconnected
hardy narwhal
@marble surge
here, i will REPOST this.
THIS is the bug and how to work around the bug.
the DC voltages on the fuel cells have NOTHING to do with the batteries in the stage one rocket booster system.
they are FUEL CELL voltages in the CM.
and I can with 100 percent abilty reproduce the bug where the fuel cells in the game dont function properly to shut them off and on unless i do my workaround.
hide the seats (they are always in the way)
verify that fuel cells for Main bus A and B all show grey status indicators (they will)
switch DC indicator dial to main bus A.
you should see it read something around 27 volts. (the capsule has power going to main bus A and B via the umbilical)
on panel 226, the fuel cell breaker panel, close the following breakers:
FUEL CELL 1 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 2 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 3 BUS CONT.
(this is the workaround to the UI bug with the fuel cell indicators)
the fuel cell indicators for main bus A and B should now show barber polls meaning that they are powered OFF.
tell the tower to "switch to internal power" ( the tower will turn off the power and now you will see the DC volt meter go to zero volts as the umbilical is disconnected from Saturn.
marble surge
Oh yeah, the batteries drain really fast.
I am not surprised you lost them at 5 ish hours
hardy narwhal
that was the intent.
marble surge
Ahhh
Were you testing if the voltmeter dropped dead after batts died?
because that it definitely should
hardy narwhal
even with the workaround....and I could tell 100 percent that I was running on bats....the fuel cells were reporting a voltage
hardy narwhal
NO
marble surge
if you decrease amps the volts should rise
hardy narwhal
the Fuel cells are OFF they are not producing voltage
marble surge
unless you kill the cells completely
hardy narwhal
i did
hardy narwhal
no reactants .. nothing....but the only way to do this is with my workaround because there is a bug at the cold and start
100 percent shtu down fuel cells
marble surge
Yeah that's definitely a bug
hardy narwhal
so....i will repost this, this is how to get the fuel cells in a state that you can actually turn them off....but remember...the voltages still show on the dial. this is a bug.
hide the seats (they are always in the way)
verify that fuel cells for Main bus A and B all show grey status indicators (they will)
switch DC indicator dial to main bus A.
you should see it read something around 27 volts. (the capsule has power going to main bus A and B via the umbilical)
on panel 226, the fuel cell breaker panel, close the following breakers:
FUEL CELL 1 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 2 BUS CONT.
FUEL CELL 3 BUS CONT.
(this is the workaround to the UI bug with the fuel cell indicators)
the fuel cell indicators for main bus A and B should now show barber polls meaning that they are powered OFF.
tell the tower to "switch to internal power" ( the tower will turn off the power and now you will see the DC volt meter go to zero volts as the umbilical is disconnected from Saturn.
disconnecting the umbilical is not needed but shows that you are now truely w/o power
if you did no do the fuel cell BUS CONT cb step...you will still have power to the command module. and the fuel cells will not be able to be turned off.
so...once I tested that i could launch on battery only from t-25 to t+5h 49m
the power complely shut off ......I was able to get power on fuel cells with the little bit of juice left on in the batteries.....and now my systems are all working again...because i have fuel cell voltage charging the busses AND i can now recharge the batteries as well I i need them again
it appears that once the batts die...charging them does not work. and I have two failed main bus b fuel cells.
anyways..this is all seperate issues.
the main issue is the FC startup at the begining of the cold and dark scenario
marble surge
looks tto me like it might be hard wired
here's what I got... Albeit I am still on external power. But I can not find some cb which acttually disconnects the voltmeter
I have pulled all instrumentation I can find
Batts are disconnected
EPS Sensor Signal is disconnected
EPS Sensor Unit
ESS and Transducer (Just cause I might as well make all the gauges off)
Instrumentation Power Control and Operational
Flight bus and Flight bus sig conditioner, this kills fuel cell instrumentation
EPS groups 1-5 and Util Bus
EPS Bat Bus
Disconnect Bat ABC to power entry landing
As well as the entire 275 panel for Main A, B, flight bus, and inverter ties.
Just to be certain I also disconnected inverters and closed reac valves.
Voltmeter is still running
I have pulled everything related to instrumentation on panels 2 and 3
except for temperature because I can't figure out what those are powered by.
Entire panel is dead, yet volt meter still alive
volt meter appears to be unkillable
however, it is still getting power through some sneak circuit, maybe a nassp tthing. Going to consult folgers real quick
marble surge
Okay
The results are conclusive
Pulling CB 20, 21, and 22 should kill volt readouts on bat A, bat B, and Bat C volts The amps is hardlined
Losing the main bus, should kille MNA and MNB since that is hard lined
Actually disconnecting EPS sensor signal cbs should pull the readouts from the main busses
those are cb 1 and cb2
Fuel cell volts actually take ages to drop it looks like
like almost an hour
marble surge
@hardy narwhal Little update on the situation
Some of the stuff in the EPS is hard wired
to the volt meter
however. The nassp team, with the help of me, have determined that we all got a few things wrong about the lowly volt meter
I will link them now
-
Batt C should be able to be disconnected from volt meter after pulling Bat C PWR Entry/ Post Landing (CB 22) or Bat C Bat CHGR / EDS 2 (CB 23)
-
Fuel Cells should not have volt readout when selected on DC Indicators, there is no connection.
-
Pyro Bats A and B should not get an amp readout when selected on DC indicators.
-
Main A and Main B should not have an AMP readout when selected with DC indicators
-
Disconnecting any EPS Sensor Signal CBs does not disconnect the Voltmeter for any corresponding bus.
For number 1, any battery should be disconnectted from the volt meter when pulling breakers 20, 21, or 22
those are the bat (a/b/c) PWR Entry / Post Flight cbs
For number 5, disconnecting the EPS Sensor Signal CBs should disconnect the corresponding bus
this was a behavior report, so the language is backwards lol
but you get the point
For number 2, fuel cells never give a volt readout ever. Only amps
for number 3, Pyro bats never give a AMP readout, only volts.
hardy narwhal
can you please post/cite documentation for this.
it is interesting info and it should be followed up with documents showing this is the case.
as far as i've seen in documentation. Those indicators are supposed to show amp draw and voltage for the selected indicator.
being able to independently measuring the fuel cell voltage would be very important.
you would also need to know the battery voltage independently as well.
it is the combination of the fuel cells and the batteries that make up the bus voltage depending on the switch and CB configuration.
but I find it hard to believe that the dc indicator switch if set to a fuel cell is not supposed to show it's voltage output based on the NASA documentation I'm reading.
so...I'm curious what the NASSP project is basing it's design on.
do they have the circuit diagram?
hardy narwhal
and then again, i'm looking at the apollo manual.....and it contradicts the other manual i posted....
going to list what the doc shows....
so thats main bus a b bat a b volts...
bat a and b amps
post landing battery volts and amps
"post entry battery" appears to be the C battery
battery charger volts and amps
AH!
panel 200 has the voltmeter for the fuel cells.
no wait. That is for other fuel cell data...i think the volt setting still measures fuel cell volts...but you can use the aux dc volt meter to show the other fuel cell values...thats pretty neat.
so far I have not seen any indication that the fuel cell indicator switch does not output voltage of the fuel cells. documenation so far indicates that it does output it's voltages.
the same goes for pyro bus....even though it is isolated...i havent found any evidience that when selected, iit does not show the pyrobus volts and amperage....instead. documentation is indicates that they are shown for FC's and pyro bus.
hardy narwhal
ok summerized....
main A and B voltage
bat BUS A and B voltage
bat A and B current
bat c voltage and current
Then, documentation stating that the switch also outputs voltage and current for the fuel cells and the pyro buses but I have not found the diagram for it.
there is indication that the aux dc meter on panel 200 allows for display of other FC info but i dont see a panel 200 in the reentry sim.
it is located here:
ah...found fuelcell dc current output to dc amps meter documenation:
pft...they have it listed all here:
hardy narwhal
<@145386601038610432> Little update on the situation
you are correct and documentation confirms what you stated regarding dial info output.
thank you.
There is a aux volt meter with test switch settings that can monitor other info from the fuel cells bast on switch settings that does not appear to exist in the Reentry sim.
i've tried finding panel 200 and I dont see it in the sim nor the document diagrams.
closest panel diagram i found was this:
wheat sundialBOT
Gave +1 flight-hours to @marble surge (current: #35 - 11)
hardy narwhal
@marble surge though I need to make a separate bug report though for the powered state of the fuel cells...it is separate from this report.
interesting. perhaps that panel 200 existed for apollo 11 but these panel diagrams may be from apollo 17
wonder if this aux dc display is the panel 101 system test display
anyhow...i should be in bed sleeping, it's almost 5am. these docs are really cool.
hardy narwhal
and it should read slightly below 20 volts when not being used.
uncut mantle
modern imp
#1 the Saturn is independent and has its own power and #2 0 on the indicator isn't 0 it's just 20 or off scale low. #3 you can't really just turn off a fuel cell and turn it back on. So to test this 'bug' I killed the fuel cells and lo and behold
also I'm pretty sure this UI bug you have with the fuel cell control cb is not a bug unless you can provide documentation that the control tb in an unpowered state should show bp
marble surge
#1 the Saturn is independent and has its own power and #2 0 on the indicator isn...
the lowest point on the guage is 20. It will never show exactly 20 unless the guage has 0 power on that terminal
also, you can restart the fuel cells on the pad as long as the umbilical is still connected
also, the talkbacks fall into grey if the battery relay bus is unpowered.
I will need to see if it goes grey if you pull bus control. But I highly doubt it.
Will text this behavior in about an hour and a half
modern imp
the lowest point on the guage is 20. It will never show exactly 20 unless the gu...
Basically what I was trying to say
modern imp
also, the talkbacks fall into grey if the battery relay bus is unpowered.
And thank you for confirming that
wheat sundialBOT
Gave +1 flight-hours to @marble surge (current: #34 - 12)
marble surge
And thank you for confirming that
Yes the fall back to grey and same with bus control. The bus control CB appears to come before the relay bus CB in the diagrams.