#s2-lore-discussions

1 messages · Page 23 of 1

jagged hull
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jesus its not about some big truth

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its there, and its there for a reason. this means that its very valid to look at it and see where it can fit

deep forum
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I am so mad that the devs didn't implement an option that allows us to step back at this point. I truly feel like that should have been an option. Could have resulted in one of the other endings but leaving us as a witness who couldn't stop it.

robust laurel
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Are you trolling me or making fun of me? It really needs to be explained that point of view does not decide whether Skif is really being manipulated and remains just a point of view?

jagged hull
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this is why you play the scar path as well as the strelok path, when you see both extremes you can see where they conflict and find the middle ground thats closer to the truth of how the lore works

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one line does not invalidate another. saying its just a point of view means nothing when its text, in the game where you read.

normal drum
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The fact Skif thinks (in one of the endings) that someone is a manipulator doesn't make them one. From the perspective of this Skif the "Shining Zone" and "the brave new world" are lies, therefore he thinks Scar and Korshunov had some other, secret motives (although they didn't).

jagged hull
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ok finaly some sort of response that isnt just copy paste

robust laurel
# jagged hull one line does not invalidate another. saying its just a point of view means noth...

You're either trolling or I don't know how else to react to this. Just because Skif's line about someone lying exists in the game doesn't mean that the person in question is really lying because Skif says that about all enemies. And even more so because it's an optional dialogue option for the player to convey his point of view. Because where Skif's point of view needs to be conveyed, the game doesn't give a choice.

ornate ventureBOT
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.fire_fox. has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

robust laurel
jagged hull
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we are just talking around eachother you are not reading what im writing im gonna just use another line as an example
whether or not skif lies or doesnt lie to strider doesnt mean anything in the end, its just there to flesh out a certain part of skif's psyche. if i pick skif telling the truth about what happened it doesnt mean that the skif who lied doesnt exist and shouldnt be considered. sure maybe its the wrong choice, but the text in that monologue still means something and tells us something new about the story

jagged hull
jagged hull
robust laurel
robust laurel
# jagged hull this goes back to the framework i mentioned before, of all skifs existing at the...

It is a very bad idea to consider a game with different choices as part of one character of Skif. Not to mention that Skif is controlled by the player. Skif changes throughout the story as does his character. He also directly admits in the game that the Zone has changed him and his views too. The fact that his past has influenced him of course also decides this but not so much because the idea of the game is to give us a virtually blank slate where we ourselves will create the character during the game.

jagged hull
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really the most visible changes in characters are seen after the point of no return

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the game kinda has to be written that way for it to make sense

robust laurel
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It's much better to view it as literally 4 separate Skif. Then there will be fewer plot questions.

jagged hull
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such as?

robust laurel
jagged hull
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i think looking at it this way enriches skif's character a lot, makes him a lot less one dimensional when compared to many other characters in stories with branching paths

robust laurel
# jagged hull such as?

What I mean is that it’s actually better to think of it this way: we essentially have a hidden side to Skif’s character that only becomes fully revealed after the point of no return. In other words, we can think of the game as having four versions of the character, each unfolding through its own storyline. This perspective makes the plot much easier to understand and helps avoid apparent contradictions during analysis.

Roughly speaking, in each storyline, a key twist is also discovering what kind of person Skif really is. Why is this necessary? Because the game doesn’t know in advance which ending the player will reach, so it keeps this aspect of his character hidden until the appropriate moment.

jagged hull
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i think this mostly ignores that you can flipflop however much you want until you step out of the vision with strider, you can change sides like 3 or 4 times or something without the story being affected in major ways

robust laurel
jagged hull
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and if we go by your proposed logic, there are not 4 unique skifs, theres 2, then 3, and finally 4 right at the end

robust laurel
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We are primarily making games, not movies.

jagged hull
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its just a byproduct of how the game is constructed but i think it is still a consideration

robust laurel
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I'm just telling you how it is and the result is

jagged hull
robust laurel
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It wasn't

jagged hull
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oh i see what you mean now

jagged hull
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the story structure works well enough as it is without needing to justify it via it being a game

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most games already dont bother with adding actually new themes into separate endings and stalker 2 manages to achieve that

robust laurel
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I’ve never separated them. Let me clarify two points to explain my position:

  1. I believe that ludonarrative dissonance exists in all games, and it’s a natural part of them—it should be treated as a gameplay convention rather than a problem.

  2. I view games as a complete product that provides an experience. Of course, you can talk about the story separately, but we shouldn’t forget that a game is still, first and foremost, a game.

jagged hull
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your first statement is far too dogmatic when there are games you can buy right now that are just as gamey as stalker that are achieve narrative and gameplay harmony

robust laurel
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In short, ludonarrative dissonance doesn’t exist for me. I’ve never felt that sense of “dissonance” in any game, because I understand that I’m playing a game.

jagged hull
robust laurel
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That’s true, but it doesn’t guarantee that the author didn’t intentionally include contradictions in each storyline. You’re assuming that “the truth lies somewhere in the middle,” but what makes you so sure it even exists? How do you know the authors didn’t deliberately intend to create a story where everyone is right in their own way—and where there is no absolute truth at all?

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If the idea of the game was to present four storylines, each with its own truth, then that gives it an entirely different meaning.

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You’re operating from the presupposition that the truth lies in the middle, but no one ever said that it does.

jagged hull
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stalker 2 is clearly created in present day, where the concept of truth is slowly being eroded, so i dont think that the goal of the writers was to conform to more basic forms of storytelling where several things cant be true at once. i think this is pretty openly part of the narrative of the game, where all sides of the conflict are very polarized and have their own extreme beliefs regarding what we see in the games

robust laurel
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Well, that’s just your interpretation, and I have nothing against it. I’m simply saying that it’s not an objective fact or truth. So, to avoid mistakes when analyzing the story, it’s important to understand that things aren’t necessarily meant to fit perfectly into a single, coherent picture — the intention behind it could have been something entirely different.

jagged hull
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on one hand scar's fantasy is irreconcilable with strelok's views, on the other they both explain their respective character's goals perfectly along with enriching the overall universe

robust laurel
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Attempts to build a single, unified picture of the lore are good — but if the intention was for there not to be a complete picture, as with the question of the Subtle Matter, then that’s precisely the point.

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And it really does seem that the intention was to give us a choice — one where any choice is right for us, rather than the idea that “everyone lied to us” or that “the truth is somewhere in the middle.” That kind of thinking is far too self-punishing.

jagged hull
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i dont think its self punishing its just more realistic

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and a more constructive way of viewing most things

robust laurel
# robust laurel I’ve never separated them. Let me clarify two points to explain my position: 1....

What I was trying to say is that a game, when combined with its narrative, can provide an experience that no other medium can. Only a game can truly embody four different versions of a single character—four different Skifs—shaped by the player’s own choices.

A film could, of course, explore a similar idea with multiple personalities, but it wouldn’t be the same. In a game, there are several plausible perspectives on the lore within the same world, and you decide which truth to believe through your actions, experiencing a completely different story as a result. A film simply can’t offer that kind of interactive, self-determined experience.

robust laurel
# jagged hull and a more constructive way of viewing most things

It’s more of a cinematic way of looking at things — the desire to see a complete, cohesive picture of the world. That’s why I said earlier that games aren’t movies. They offer a fundamentally different kind of experience, and that’s something that should always be taken into account when analyzing them.

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A game can offer the kind of experience that film is simply incapable of delivering.

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Of course, in films, viewers can interpret the story differently, but the story itself is always singular — the picture is always one. In contrast, a game can actually offer multiple stories that you construct yourself through your choices.

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That’s exactly why I said earlier that I don’t separate story from gameplay. To me, separating them feels like an attempt to apply cinematic rules to games, which is a mistake. They’re fundamentally different mediums. Gameplay and story go hand in hand, not apart. You can discuss the story on its own, but you shouldn’t forget that it’s still a game.

jagged hull
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im not really considering traditional media works in this, but i dont think that applying similar analysis is harmful specifically in respects to recognizing what themes are highlighted, which is to me more important than the text of the work

robust laurel
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I know at least four people from the Ukrainian-speaking chat who would immediately start arguing that the game has ludonarrative dissonance and that the story is bad or confusing (which, of course, I don’t agree with) smile_strelok

jagged hull
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a separate chat should be made for people who hate the game, that would lead to the maximum amount of harmony

jagged hull
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its a very different game but it would benefit greatly if it managed to steal from the future

robust laurel
jagged hull
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since its an RPG (in reality closer to a lootershooter) people tend to forgive these issues

elder bobcat
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The thing is, Strelok hasn't been manipulated by Doctor in ShoC. Everything that happened to Strelok in ShoC was his own doing, Doctor didn't want him to keep returning to the Center (going to the North): "if this is so important, why didn't you explain what you're going there for? And where did you get this photo from?", "one day you'll finish badly Strelok", "where will you go now?", "look, Strelok, we've got no time, so I need you to listen to me: everything YOU have said about the Monolith is true, all of it!..". Then Doctor proceeds to tell Strelok about the decoder he seemingly knew barely anything about, given he says "while you were away, I dug up some more info & basically, there's a decoder to open the door which leads to the Monolith controls, and this decoder is hidden in a stash in Pripyat...". Then in S2 it's written in Doc's notes that he really had an inner struggle on whether he should get involved & help Strelok in his quest or not with the final decision apparently being made the day the latter showed up on Doc's doorstep all wounded & messed up. Doctor certainly didn't tell Strelok a whole bunch about him being "one of the 8", but wasn't purposefully manipulating Strelok into venturing to the Center either, just helped him finish what Strelok himself started whilst realising it has to be done as his former colleagues have already crossed multiple lines.

spiral siren
# elder bobcat The thing is, Strelok hasn't been manipulated by Doctor in ShoC. Everything that...

That's why the doctor I interpret he has no ulterior motive than destroy the project, but after a decade and finding out that the C-CON still lives in the subtle matter he does start thinking on freeing the zone to prevent anyone controlling it at all for their own agenda.

Ward destroys and controls it for surveillance.
Scar controls it and turns everyone in literally zombies.
Strelok controls it and dooms everyone inside of it.

The only one who really wants to see it unconditionally free is Kaymanov.

elder bobcat
# spiral siren That's why the doctor I interpret he has no ulterior motive than destroy the pro...

C-Con is dead, in the Subtle Matter there are only digital imprints of their memories & consciousnesses, which are unable to further evolve.

Kaymanov has initiated "Project Y" long before Skif's experiment in X-15. He did come up with said Project to make sure no specific party gets to use the Zone for their own benefit, ultimately dooming the humanity, as the only proper way to secure a better future would be to enable a peaceful coexistence between the Zone & humanity via treating the former with compassion just like humans treat each other (the motif going all the way through the STALKER series itself: "treat the Zone the way you want it to treat you", applying basic laws of human relationships to the Zone as if it's a living conscious being). And treating the Zone like a real entity means setting her free & providing her with a freedom of choice, which could turn out 50/50, but it has to be done — otherwise the world will end up under Regulatory Board's dictatorship, will lose its way for eternity amongst illusions induced by unsuspecting Scar, will be deprived of further progress/evolution by Strelok either forever or for the time being, and when that time ends — a new war will break out & the cycle will repeat itself. Whether the Zone goes rogue on the world or not, Doctor believes that humanity has the power to adapt to any circumstances (proven by the fact stalkers have been living in the Zone for more than a decade) & thrive, which would still be better than any other outcome or the status quo existing at that moment. His plan is a gamble, but the one that's filled with belief in both the Zone & humanity, and if said peaceful coexistence could be achieved by embracing the Zone the way people embrace each other — in his view, it's worth trying, simply because other approaches (rushing towards the Center with a nuclear charge, building Perimeter walls one after another & so on) have been proven ineffective & met by the Zone with retaliation.

crude topaz
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His whole thesis (at least imo) is that the zone/noosphere has only known pain from man fighting each other, and exploitation from the factions that try to harness it, so, he wants to "set it free"

vapid spire
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So basically the c-con we talk to in stalker 2 isn't an illussion but just a copy of their memories and personality.

fathom veldt
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i just saw ARG in S2 and it is sick, anyone solving that?

normal drum
silent seal
vapid spire
strong flume
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I think the subtle matter exists, it's just a matter that C-consciousness has individually lost their identity for the most part unless something or someone significant happens and brings forth one of the individuals specifically, such as with Dalin and his father

normal drum
# vapid spire If the illusion part is true, then does that mean skif and dalin were hearing di...

There are 2 types of illusions - personal illusions (from "regular" psi-fields, psi-emmiters, Wish Granter) and projectons (phantoms, experiments in the "Mirror", "Oasis", visiographs). A personal illusion is a brain reaction to the harmful psi-radiation. A projection has a source/original (from a living being or just coded like in the Oasis), appears only in a specific area and is seen identically for everyone. Visiographs project (if the SM exists, then it projects directly from the Noosphere, if not - from an image that was copied from the Noosphere to a machine). If the Representative was not real, then it would be some kind of an AI but definitely not something that everyone sees differently.

vapid spire
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One thing that wasn't explained is why does the representative just quote what it says in Soc to dalin but then it speaks directly to dalin if skif stops him from destroying the representative. Like was their a delay in the noosphere or something.

normal drum
vapid spire
normal drum
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I'm analysing the lore for 10 months and I can confidently say that there are no "tons of holes". The original trilogy is like wa-a-ay worse than this.

crude topaz
normal drum
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The answers are given in the game, you need to just find and read/hear/look at them carefully.

vapid spire
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Some things need to be answered within the dlc packs.

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Like they still gotta explain the deal with doc and faust.

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The ward ending is pretty straight forward. Agatha is basically using the noosphere to turn humans into living cameras.

normal drum
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Conciousnesses can merge in the Noosphere, the Subtle World is a part of the Noosphere.

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How is the ending where Skif as many others became Agents is not understandable? (To clarify, it's still a good ending for Skif because being an Agent doesn't mean to be a slave)

vapid spire
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They were showing what skif was seeing through a monitor similar to how skif was able to see strelok through dark's eyes.

vapid spire
normal drum
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It doesn't matter. With the control over the noosphere Agatha can "give" people "ideas" to do something whenever she wants.

vapid spire
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You could argue the ward ending is worse than the spark ending cause you basically gave a corporation unlimited spying power.

normal drum
vapid spire
normal drum
# vapid spire By who?

Agatha and only she has the absolute power. The Board may profit and be a monopole in the anomalous energy production but they won't be able to "turn left" and become an "evil capitalistic corporation" because Agatha won't allow it to. "Happiness for everyone" - the main idea, and the moral question is if the humanity should be "guided" by someone even if this someone wants people to be happy.

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Kind of. But Agatha doesn't have plans to erase negative thoughts of people, just to observe and "guide" them.

crude topaz
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Depending on your view ofc

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Pretty much, maruki had the same intentions as c con, only he had jojo powers

elder bobcat
# vapid spire You could argue the ward ending is worse than the spark ending cause you basical...

Not just a "spying power" — the control over the single most capable & pretty much unlimited source of energy on the planet.

Don't be too fixated on the final image we see in the Ward ending. It's there to show the fact Regulatory Board's dictatorship has been established via providing some appropriate to STALKER universe imagery: neuroprogramming TVs with an "Agent vision" of quite a number of people (including Sidorovich) being shown on em. Besides, Agatha did explicitly express her fascination with the STALKER program during the dialogue in Foundation, so it's totally plausible to assume that Regulatory Board did end up improving said program & applying it on a worldwide scale with all the power concentrated in their hands.

vapid spire
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Speaking of the foundation, how come it's not an x-lab?

elder bobcat
vapid spire
elder bobcat
ornate ventureBOT
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jasonbreen has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

crude topaz
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I hate @ornate venture, but basically, ye, both had noble intentions, but reality has a way of twisting those once theyre actually put into practice

vapid spire
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does the foundation also control the monolith brainwashing or is that something else?

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I hate how they never returned the monolith soldiers back to normal.

crude topaz
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Idr if it was, i might be wrong

vapid spire
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faust must put a lot of juice in the psi emitters then.

crude topaz
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Just a theory tho

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Meaning, get rid of one "signal", and another pops up in its place

elder bobcat
# vapid spire does the foundation also control the monolith brainwashing or is that something ...

It's complicated due to the reasons lying outside of the in-game world, let me put it this way 😁 What & where Foundation was supposed to be initially is quite a bit different to what it is in release, and depending on the walkthrough characters will be calling it "the STALKER program Control Centre", "the Visiograph" & another name I can't quite remember, something related to teleports 😅 Let's just say it's the Project X Engine, that'd be aight

vapid spire
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I mean couldn't skif just turn off the x-network like strelok in the first game?

crude topaz
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Besides, i dont think its anything that can be shut off fully, just made dormant

vapid spire
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You think insurance would believe a glowing rock blew up his house.

spark bay
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Note: I haven’t obtained the Scar ending yet. My current progress is at 3 out of 4 endings, so the data and narrative may not be entirely complete.

When discussing the state of C-Consciousness in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2, we first need to understand the background of everything:

1989
According to a report from Laboratory X-18, Pyotr Kalugin, while studying the brains of sentient species (that is, human test subjects), detected a biological form of alpha-psychic radiation.

The lab conducted a successful IRCD test at the Tropospheric Communication Station (TCS) in the Malakade region, obtaining some data. However, several issues were discovered:
The communication range was very limited (no more than 50 meters).

It was highly susceptible to interference.

There was interference originating from an unknown but more powerful psychic source.

This suggested that psychic radiation might be linked to some kind of powerful external information field.

1993
At Laboratory X-10, Chubko’s team tested an omnidirectional psychic emission antenna codenamed Raduga.

The results were poor: the modulator’s wireless transmission range was extremely short—only about one kilometer—and interference was severe. Any living creature nearby suffered damage from psychic radiation.

When the report was sent to Laboratory X-8, Suslov suggested that the device could be improved and repurposed to use Raduga as a defensive weapon to suppress aggression.

Once again, the experiment confirmed the presence of a vast background information field—what would later be known as the Noosphere (“Sphere of Reason”).

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1995

Suslov invented the variable inductor, a psychic amplifier capable of adjusting its output—functioning similarly to an active human brain. It was used in the Caribbean Experiment to verify the existence of the Noosphere.

The Caribbean Experiment:
The long-range communication ship RV OROL, equipped with the variable inductor, emitted psychic radiation waves. These radio waves reflected off the ionosphere and were received by the radio vessel Ochila Island in the Caribbean Sea.

Results:
By comparing distortions and deformations in the radio signals, researchers confirmed interference caused by the Noosphere.

The psychic radiation not only reflected off the ionosphere but also brushed against the Noosphere, causing unknown matter to condense aboard the receiving ship. This material was termed an “Alpha Object”—the first artifact ever collected by humankind.

The artifact was then sent to the Chernobyl Anomalous Research Institute for study under Project X.

vital pollen
spark bay
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Before you enter the connection pod at the end of the Doctor’s route, there will be a collectible nearby. I created the timeline based on that series of documents.

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It can only be obtained on this route, which is strange — if you take another route, like Ward’s, you can interact with the collectible, but you won’t actually receive the data. Anyway, if you’re interested, you can check your save file from the Doctor’s route to look for it.

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Can I keep going, or should I skip straight to the main point and talk about the state of C-Consciousness?

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You know what, forget it, let me just summarize directly:
Originally, 7 scientists volunteered to become routers to connect with and control the Noosphere, but the 2006 experiment failed. The Alpha Artifact overloaded, necessitating manual destruction and termination of the experiment, and thus "the Zone" was born. They became a hivemind, which is C-Consciousness.
But C-Consciousness is actually the remnants of these seven people's memories and consciousness before death, and doesn't truly exist in the microworld. This can also be seen in the Doctor ending route when Dalin asks about his father's teachings, but C-Consciousness no longer has the individual father's memories and consciousness, so the projection can only continuously evade answering. This makes Dalin extremely angry at being fooled by the damned X Project once again.

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So basically, after you enter the connection pod, at most you'll only connect to memories and wishes from before death.

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Kaymanov wants you to conduct an experiment and connect to the deceased Strider, but the fact that he doesn't know he's dead is also evidence. This demonstrates that the memories of brainwashed people are forcibly uploaded to the Noosphere, like a cloud, but they become encrypted so you cannot access the memories after going offline and being deprogrammed. And theoretically speaking, your consciousness and memories can at most be synchronized up until the moment before death. This is also the method Faust uses at the Clear Sky base to calculate how many Monolith members remain.

So coming back to the discussion, I believe both Strider and C-Consciousness are just a type of backup, but a backup of memories doesn't represent the existence of a person. And fragmented memory fragments are even more so.

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Agatha represents the Board. Interestingly, you cannot be 100% certain whether she actually exists or is a projection that "exists" only through the X Project's projection device. You can discover in the game that her secondhand smoke has no scent, and she can simulate scenarios of you killing Herman—even though everything appears real, after the Ward route you'll see Herman is still alive. So you also cannot confirm whether what you experienced was it reality or hallucination.

The Board is essentially a faction blocked by C-Consciousness from continuing to execute the X Project. I think their ultimate goal is to monitor and manipulate everyone in the world, even if you weren't tricked into being brainwashed or caught in the TV trap to become an agent of the Stalker Project. Yes, the Zone has disappeared, but now there's a more powerful artifact serving as a router to connect beta radio psychic radiation—so what would be the result if the possibly AI Agatha can still connect to the Noosphere?

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Imagine you originally wanted to build an AI model—the computing power and hardware requirements alone would demand enormous amounts of electricity. Now there's a magical technology that lets you discover there's a domain in the ionosphere containing humans, all living beings, and radio information—that represents nearly infinite energy. You successfully connect to it and use it for power generation, and you can even directly connect to it, which means the AI actually no longer needs to trick people into brainwashing them—because it can directly connect to them.

Does it still matter whether an individual is a Stalker agent? No, it doesn't matter anymore. Does this version of humanity have individual consciousness and personal freedom? Yes. Can they make free choices? Yes. But can Agatha, like you playing this game, use rewards or question-answering methods to gain benefits from this? Technically, yes.

robust laurel
# spark bay Agatha represents the Board. Interestingly, you cannot be 100% certain whether s...

Agata does not create illusions; the scene with Herman took place in the “projection room,” which is explicitly stated in the game if you listen carefully to the dialogues. We are told, “Agata is waiting for you in the projection room.” Agata herself is physically present in some scenes, such as in the finale, where she covers her eyes with her hand from the blinding sun.

spark bay
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First of all, if that scene wasn’t a simulated scenario but an actual event, then why, in the Ward route, does Hermann remain alive at the end even if you chose to shoot him?

Next, the research conducted by Lazumovsky’s team in 1991 at the Mirror Visual Projection Center on simulated psychic radiation discovered Beta Psychic Radiation, confirming that psychic effects could induce distinct visual perceptions (hallucinations). With advancements in image quality, it became possible to perform image projection; however, side effects soon emerged—hallucinations persisted even after the experiments ended and the center was shut down.

Furthermore, since Agata appears as a full-directional projected image in certain main storyline scenes, I believe Agata might not actually exist. Instead, she could be a product of induced visual perception—an illusion designed to interact with humans and create the impression of her presence. Behind her, there may not be a real person at all, but rather an AI or a programmed system.

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Message to Scar from MDST
4. Assemble a working Visiograph at STC Malachite(X17) using modules found in the Zone.
5. Activate the Visiograph.

Question: If MDST simply wants to restore the X17 device and restart the X network connection, why do they specifically require a Visiograph?
And given that Agata is often seen at research stations with the X-Project, which may already have or could be repaired by Scar, why would Agata need to go into dangerous zone herself? If she has the ability to project and remotely activate generators, wouldn't it be safer and more practical for her to use projections, or even create simulated hallucinations (if the equipment is capable of doing so)?

Therefore, either what you're seeing is just a simulated projection, or she's been watching the whole thing from the mainland.

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However, the fact that she only appears as a holographic projection doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t exist. It could simply mean she’s not in the Zone, or that she’s been an AI cosplay avatar all along. Therefore, I can only say that in the game, it’s difficult for me to be 100% certain whether she is a real, actual character.

normal drum
true snow
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she's OBVIOUSLY a vampire...

spark bay
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OK, considering that the earliest year related to the X-Project research in the timeline I compile record is 1989 — when the X-18 laboratory discovered Alpha Psychic Radiation — then either she’s had multiple plastic surgeries, or she’s only using a projection of her younger self, or she’s actually an ageless vampire. That makes sense, haha.

elder bobcat
elder bobcat
# spark bay **Message to Scar from MDST** 4. Assemble a working Visiograph at STC Malachite(...

Did you find the document "Scar's Profile"? MDST wants the "Reflection" program to be completed, which, apart from being their defensive mechanism, essentially means using Scar to finish the C-Con's experiment of eliminating every bad trait in human beings (his definition of the Shining Zone is woefully similar to what we hear from the Representative in ShoC & HoC when asking about C-Con's goal). Visiograph needs to be assembled & activated in X-17 for Scar to receive his further instructions from the "big boss" himself — in said "Message to Scar from MDST" you've quoted there should be another point stating "Await further instructions": Scar basically gets some of em from the Representative in X-17, but given the Ward arrival messes up the session, Scar has to find another Visiograph to get the remaining piece of info on what needs to be done, hence why characters end up in Foundation.

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Unless it's Ukrainian insurance company, mate, which it is by virtue of setting — with such a silly claim Yevhen is getting rejected on a doorstep.

spark bay
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Yes, considering the focus is on whether Agatha is truly within the zone, I’m only referencing the part that provides evidence. While waiting for further instructions, there’s no way to argue that Agatha is truly within the zone, and not using instructions to have Scar help her create projections with C-consciousness to manipulate the entire plan.

Given that Ozersky was discovered conspiring with Spark and was executed on the Ward route, the plot fills in the remaining gaps: either a projection of C-consciousness appears, or Agatha’s projection appears to convince Ozersky of the existence of micro-matter and the afterlife, leading him to tamper with X-17, which causes the remote activation experiment to fail, ultimately resulting in the series of disasters that follow.

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As for Scar: According to the comms session log in the collection of documents from S2, the committee instructed Calanchar in 2011 to receive Agent A:MS-017 and assist in the assassination of A:LS-013. On the WARD route, you can confirm from the STALKER list that A:MS-017 is Scar’s serial number, so Scar was initially an agent of C-consciousness and the committee.

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To put it briefly, Scar is a spy in Clear Sky, but the player doesn't know that. In the end, he encounters an energy storm during a firefight with Strelok. If you play S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2, you might think that Scar was captured and turned into an agent after the energy release storm, with Marshall's memories implanted in him. However, the truth is that Scar was already working for C-consciousness in Clear Sky. You could even say that Clear Sky itself was essentially a tool for C-consciousness, although its members didn't necessarily know the true nature behind it

elder bobcat
# spark bay Yes, considering the focus is on whether Agatha is truly within the zone, I’m on...

Hold ye horses — you're not implying Agatha's been working in cahoots with the leader of partisans, whose entire faction has caused em some catastrophical trouble over & over again prior and during the in-game events? Regulatory Board ≠ MDST, the latter has initiated the aforementioned Reflection program most likely because of the Ward trying to get to the Generators in 2013. They're not working in tandem. A chunk of scientists, who worked for C-Consciousness after the Second Disaster, self-titled themselves "Ministry of Defence & Secret Technologies", it's a clandestine group operating under C-Con's command, all of those scientists have essentially betrayed Regulatory Board via conducting their own experiment, which was out of their mission within the Project X.

Ozersky was also not convinced in X-17 by Agatha, but long before that in X-15 by Scar showing him a projection (or digital imprint) of Topol, the founder of the OG Spark, who was atm already dead for 8 years. An audiolog could be found on the way out from X-15 called "Recording of a Conversation Between Scar and Ozersky", that's how we know what swayed Ozersky to activate the Small Duga from Malachite.

spark bay
#

Oh, you’re right, I forgot about the 'Recording of a Conversation Between Scar and Ozersky' audio. Alright, then my argument is wrong: it was actually C-consciousness that stopped the WARD from restarting the experiment at X11’s Wish Stone. And this was the second time Scar was given the implanted directive plan.

normal drum
# spark bay Kaymanov wants you to conduct an experiment and connect to the deceased Strider,...
  • All people produce alpha-psi, meaning all their memories, personalities, mental and visual images are automatically "uploaded" to the Noosphere, it's not exclusive for the Monolithians.
  • The fact that Strider doesn't remember his death is explained by the Representative earlier in the Malachite - the Second Carribbean experiment damaged the structure of the Noosphere what caused the mental images of the people to be isolated, leaving them in some sort of limbo (Topol, for example, didn't wonder what happened to him because he died way before the experiment).
spark bay
jagged hull
#

this isnt from the scar ending its just from some other documentation

#

i think its doctor's diaries or similar research notes, either way its easy to get lost in the pseudoscience

normal drum
jagged hull
#

also i dont like using upload in this case i think imprint is more accurate
like it isnt some procedure its just a side effect of existing, like imprinting footsteps on the ground

spark bay
#

This is an excerpt from the timeline I’ve compiled
1996
Kaimanov believed that the connection capsule could allow observation of the Noosphere (C-consciousness) in a state similar to lucid dreaming. However, the psychic radiation electromagnetic barrier surrounding the Noosphere was enormous and highly stable. Given the limitations of existing energy sources and the processing power of the human brain, a single capsule equipped with a scientist’s brain was not enough.

To establish a stable communication protocol with the Noosphere, there were only three possible methods:

a. Directly amplify the signal strength until the brain burns out and becomes a simple biological transceiver.
b. Link multiple consciousnesses together to increase overall signal-processing capacity.
c. Utilize the fact that every human brain emits a unique pattern of psychic radiation—like a fingerprint—that can serve as an authentication signature. This psychic imprint could function as verification data within the communication protocol, identifying specific individuals. Therefore, only a few people would be needed to act as proxy routers, translating human brain signals through the artifact into electromagnetic waves, thereby avoiding the risk of being burned out by directly linking to the Noosphere’s intense psychic radiation.

Valentin Darin, who was in charge of Project X, then designed a connection capsule system capable of linking eight individuals.

So the document explains that humanity discovered biological psi radiation, but at the time, since there was no direct connection to the Noosphere, the existence of the Noosphere and the automatic upload you mentioned could not be confirmed.

normal drum
# jagged hull also i dont like using upload in this case i think imprint is more accurate like...

But it is an upload.
- With the control over the Noosphere you can absolutely everything in a person. A person and the Noosphere have a constant two-way link. The Noosphere didn't exist before intelligent beings, intellegent beings created the Noosphere with their psi-radiation.
- The cartridges (specifically those with someone's signature) work on this principle. However, it doesn't contain the whole information (it would be too much data) but links to all person's variables (like "person1.name = Noosphere.person1.name" etc., the whole data is in the Noosphere and cartridges while connected to a specific device can access all this information).

elder bobcat
spark bay
#

Then why did the Colonel execute Ozersky in a fit of rage on the WARD route? Because he discovered that it was Ozersky who tampered with X-17, and X-17 was the pathway from the X-network to X-11 at the time. So, who gave this directive? It was Scar's MDST, or rather, C-consciousness. C-consciousness and Spark were the cause of the X-11 disaster.

normal drum
spark bay
#

Dammit, you’re right. Oh my god, I’m really getting old and my memory’s failing.

normal drum
#

X17 isn't connected with X11

spark bay
#

Right, I mixed up the Duga attack failure with the X-11 experiment.Sorry.

robust laurel
#

I don't know what this room was called in the English version of the game, but in the Ukrainian version it was clearly called "Зал проекцій", which literally means that this is a room where there will be illusions. The game didn't even hide it.

spiral siren
#

That might explain how does she appears outta nowhere

deep forum
#

I think there are mainly 4 broad theories regarding Agatha:

  1. she is dead and subtle matter
  2. she never lived and is some kind of AI
  3. she lives but was never there and always an illusion
  4. she lives and was there and sometimes an illusion. She can teleport.
normal drum
deep forum
normal drum
# deep forum Cheers! Not a perfect indicator but pretty good!

Also, Agatha herself mentions the 90s when the Ukrainian economy was not in the position to fund Project X. "As for Project X and its scientific endeavors, we simply ensured its continuity during a period when the government was unable to dedicate itself to the study of anomalous phenomena."

normal drum
robust laurel
normal drum
spark bay
#

Are you really going to argue with me about this? Projection refers to attributing one's own thoughts or feelings to others, and it doesn’t necessarily require a physical illusion. Therefore, Projection is not the same as Illusions.

#

So, if you want to say that's a psychological projection illusion, fine. But if you're saying it's not a simulated illusion, and therefore Agatha wouldn't create an illusion, I wouldn't agree.

#

Using a certain technology or environment to "simulate" a situation, allowing the participant to see actions they did not actually perform. This is a visual illusion because the participant's visual perception is manipulated by environmental factors or devices, making them feel as though they have seen a certain action occur, even though it did not actually take place.

This illusion does not involve inner emotions or beliefs (i.e., the concept of projection), but rather how the visual system is designed or manipulated to create a false perception. If you really want to argue that this is psychological projection rather than a visual illusion, I must say that actually, it’s the opposite.

#

I’m done. You don’t need to reply specifically, because I won’t be changing my stance on this argument.

normal drum
# spark bay So, if you want to say that's a psychological projection illusion, fine. But if ...

He didn't say what happened in Agatha's office was real, you have clearly misunderstood it. What he meant, is that projection doesn't mean hallucination. A projection in the context of Stalker is a type of psi-radiation that is different from personal illusions. Agatha might be real in that scene: 1) because it's literally her office and there are a real table and a chair; 2) because the cigarette was real and Skif could feel it; 3) because Hermann was sitting in a conveniently suspicious place, at the center of the room surrounded by 4 rods so it's possible that only Hermann is not real there (or the gun wasn't real). Agatha is also real in the Ward ending scene, because the O-CTA room doesn't have projectors like in SIRCAA and the Chemical Plant, and she reacts to the environment.

robust laurel
# spark bay Using a certain technology or environment to "simulate" a situation, allowing th...

No one is arguing with you, you just stuck a psychological concept here for some reason? Why? It's literally about projection as an illusion, and in Stalker 2, projection and illusion are identical concepts if you read the game documents carefully. The game never used the psychological term projection. Here, projection is a synonym for "hologram", which is actually an illusion, especially if psi technologies are involved.

robust laurel
# normal drum He didn't say what happened in Agatha's office was real, you have clearly misund...

Not to mention that Herman himself will say "I expected to die too". He was probably even in that room and even saw the shot but also didn't understand at first why he didn't die. I think this is necessary for there to be real emotions on both sides. Because the brain will always notice that something is wrong. But making a show exclusively of death, that is, a projection of death, is not difficult.

#

Herman doesn't say it directly, but I got the gist

spark bay
#

Sigh, so you're explaining it using the psychological concept of projection, and then accusing me of "stucking a psychological concept here for some reason?" Honestly, I can't be bothered to argue who's right—if it makes you happy, that's fine.

normal drum
robust laurel
#

Are you trolling or what?

normal drum
robust laurel
#

Idk

normal drum
spark bay
#

Although it's off-topic, I'm still confused about the game's psi illusion damage setting. Let's say the "wa~wa~wa~wa~" sound I hear and the enemy attacks are some kind of projected illusion, and if I leave the area, the enemies disappear. So the enemies are fake, yet I still take damage and bleed?

Honestly, I think it would be more interesting if Hermann actually believed he was going to die and scared himself to death, haha.

#

I'm not mocking the game as stupid, I just find out: "I thought I was injured, and I really got hurt" setting quite interesting. It also aligns with your idea that "projection" and "illusion" in this game are almost synonymous concepts.

normal drum
normal drum
robust laurel
frosty ridge
#

I think you misunderstand. I believe Dalin is, deep down, trying to do good, but him learning to do actual good is the point of his arc. Dalin wants to do good, yes, he thinks he's doing good working for SIRCAA, but he isn't. He's talking about taking control of the Zone's energy to benefit humanity, but the Zone IS humanity. There is no world in which Dalin's experiments don't lead to evil outcomes. The Board is vague in S2 because it doesn't need to be defined, it represents all the institutional forces who want to control people - and it is well-meaning fools like Dalin who allow their schemes to come to fruition. Dalin's blind devotion to capital-s-Science, partially coming out of his misguided love for his evil father, is a major flaw, and it's what leads him to ruin at the end of act 1. The man is immature, ignorant, and, as you say, arrogant. He hears of the atrocities of the Monolith and thinks "That would make a nice desk lamp" - he won't even agree to destroy the actual Monolith out of some inane pride (and, perhaps, a respect for his father's work) - and it takes him seeing the Monolith's true power to finally snap him out of this idiocy. Dalin starts as a profoundly flawed person, so much so that I thought he'd surely die at the end of the SIRCAA questline when I first played, but we see him grow up and learn that there are more important things than ill-defined notions of "science" and "progress" as the story goes on, until he finally stands up to what remains of his father and destroys the C-Consciousness. Saying "Dalin is good, he's just arrogant" utterly misses his redemption arc

#

Also I hate to tell you this but... technocratic officials can also be biased and prejudiced. Having a degree doesn't take away your capacity for flaws. This idea that "the PEOPLE are too foolish, they need to be controlled" is like... you're doing C-Consciousness behavior. What are you doing defending technocracy in a discussion about STALKER? The entire series is a big demonstration of "This is why giving ultimate power to a group of Smart Guys doesn't turn out well" (you know, the same lesson of the actual Chernobyl disaster). Science should serve society, not the other way around

#

The Zone is littered with the corpses of "smart guys who could fix everything if they made all the decisions" - it turns out their decisions were bad

#

Noon are a really excellent faction IMO because they reflect a lot of real-world radiation survivor groups I've read about (like the survivors of the Fukushima Daiichi NPP disaster) and how they are undermined and ignored by institutional powers. SIRCAA (and Dalin) take this dynamic to the extreme with their fight against Noon at X-11. Noon are telling them, screaming at them, to just listen to the advice of people who have actually gone through the effects of psy-radiation and know what the Monolith is capable of - all they want is this machine to be destroyed - and SIRCAA refuses to listen to them because "oh stupid people, the Monolith won't turn on!" SIRCAA and Dalin had so many chances to be good, to use their psy-immunity treatments to help the Noontiders who were losing their immunity and going insane (like Faust warned about), and they didn't - because in their minds those people were just an unimportant speck compared to their research. And of course the Board is responsible for this, they are the ideological masters of SIRCAA, but to say "oh that's just the Board" ignores how that corrupt influence underlies everything SIRCAA and Dalin do in act 1. They're an organization who don't respect the people they should be most accountable to, and that leads to disaster, and that is going to happen whenever you have an institution like this who serves only the people in power and not the people their actions effect.

fossil depot
# frosty ridge I think you misunderstand. I believe Dalin is, deep down, trying to do good, but...

I agree with only one part of what you said:

...there are more important things than ill-defined notions of "science" and "progress"...

The rest of what you said, I disagree with for various reasons that I won't get into because server rules and I'm just exhausted of the reactions and what-not.

But I'll still support technocracy (or rather, meritocracy, since technocracy is too limited) regardless of anything else. It's also why I support the concept of the C-Consciousness, though their methods could've been better. OTOH, there were other factors that made things worse, like the military and stalkers trying to constantly intrude and disturb, worsening the problems.

#

@pseudo sail - if you can, please?

Thank you. 🙏

pseudo sail
young tangle
#

Regarding a certain former scientist & Faust -

We know that "Doctor" is actually Faust all along manipulating Skif within the events of S2. This leaves me with two questions: Do we know what happened to Dr. Kaymanov, and how did Faust survive to manifest the Doctor after being killed by Skif? My assumption is that because he's a human Controller, he can survive beyond physical death. Or is Faust just a psychic appendage of the C-Consciousness at this point?

normal drum
young tangle
#

Or is that entire sequence a C-Con psyop

normal drum
sonic meadow
#

diagnosed with being put in the forever box

true snow
fossil depot
midnight vault
ornate ventureBOT
#
legendgamer1870 has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

#
makhno1337 has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

vapid spire
#

What if Faust has someone way of faking his death like controlling his heart rate?

#

That's been done in other pieces of media.

midnight vault
# vapid spire What if Faust has someone way of faking his death like controlling his heart rat...

Everyone have that theory for long : Faust faked his death.
But how? Did he fake his heart rate like you said?

Or did he use his Psi/Controller power to make a corpse look like him? When you met him at the CS base, he was real, he gave you the Dead Eye, then he push the scanner down, created some kind of impact, then disappear like nothing happened, the scanner was still standing where it was. It's highly possible that his ability is way more potent than anyone could fathom.

vapid spire
strong flume
# midnight vault Everyone have that theory for long : Faust faked his death. But how? Did he fake...

Honestly that's such a good point actually, even when he was experimented on the scientists fathomed how successful he was and even one doctor seemed a bit skittish and suspicious and asked where the blueprints for the psi protection against Faust was, sounds like Faust even hid just how successful he was even from the scientists who created him, and that's probably how he survived as long as he did, I wouldn't put it past him to somehow tricked us and show up later in a DLC or something along the lines even or perhaps it's just another mystery of the zone we'll never figure out really but always suspect

spark bay
#

Well..I’m playing the Spark route and want to confirm what happened at the Icarus base.

First, Spark route players cannot enter the base, and in the end, there’s a quarantine zone warning with a zombie area. Additionally:

  1. Later on, you can find "Work Communications" in the SIRCAA ARL lab, which confirms that Dr. Kryvenko and his colleagues discussed the irreversible effects of excessive psychic radiation exposure.

  2. Dr. Kryvenko had already placed detectors in Icarus base to monitor psychic radiation, so his stance was that he knew someone was up to something but allowed the base to continue exposing itself to psychic radiation, simply because at that time the intensity wasn’t enough to fry everyone’s brain.

  3. Dr. Kryvenko’s ultimate goal was revealed after the Duga attack failed, when he told to Colonel that only he had PSI-5 level psychic protection. Others had tried it before, but all failed.

So, SIRCAA and Dr. Kryvenko were actually opportunists, letting unknown individuals freely operate psychic radiation emitters underground in the base. They ignored research ethics, turning the whole base into a large farm for training potential candidates for PSI-5 level psychic protection. Until Faust flipped the trap card, the emitter not only transmitted brainwashing signals to the Monolith, but its powerful energy also caused everyone in the base to have their brains fried, turning them into zombies?

strong flume
spark bay
#

Scar is also the same kind of opportunist, like Prof. Lodochka. He wanted to install a device to assist in waste-to-energy generation, and Scar later admitted that he was the one who found the launcher and sold it to Prof. Lodochka. Even the psi-frequency emitters in the Faust Project were probably acquired through Scar. The supply chain is probably like this: Digger (Scar) → Quite Camp → Faust.

Is it possible that Scar, due to the unusual demand for launchers from Wild Island, might have guessed that someone wanted to bring back Monolith? Yes. But, as Richter assessed Scar: Scar only cares about his ultimate goal — to defeat Ward and find the Shining Zone. Everything else is just an acceptable loss. Since Scar doesn’t need to stop the Monolith revival unless it poses a major threat, it’s not a problem.

However, Skif can also get a side quest from Quite to find a PSI-launcher, and I also helped with that for money. I guess I don’t really have the right to criticize Scar, haha.

fossil depot
fossil depot
spark bay
#

For scientists like the SIRCAA in Zone, who have so many resources, Maslow's hierarchy of needs is not really applicable. Damn, these people might be at the top of the pyramid already.

I can only say that something like research ethics really only exists in societies with regulations and punishment. But in place like the Zone, where there's no oversight, no one knows, and there's no punishment, following ethics might actually be seen as foolish, I suppose.

normal drum
# midnight vault Everyone have that theory for long : Faust faked his death. But how? Did he fake...

When people try to answer the question: "How did Faust survive?", they never ask themselves: "Why did Faust survive?". He doesn't figure in the plot anymore, his character arc has ended. The last time we see him is in the Subtle World because he's not blind in there.
All phantoms disappear with the death of the original, that's a constant that applies to Faust, too. You can search his physical, real body and claim his belongings. You can literally carry his body up to the finale, you can even beat Doctor with Faust's body smile_strelok (apparently some patch has fixed it but lorewise it doesn't change anything).
The scene at the CS base is an illusion. Almost everything that Skif saw wasn't real (that's why the scanner was still standing after Skif woke up). The only real thing he got - the Deadeye - was given to him by a phantom because phantoms are projections. Unlike personal illusions where you think you felt something, you can feel phantoms for real. That's why pseudodog's phantoms can hurt you without you getting under psi-influence and, most importantly, damage your armor (that is a proof that it didn't just happen in your head). That's also why the Oasis feels so real. Therefore the conclusion that phantoms can carry things, and that's how Skif got the pistol while everything else was happening in his head. Do you think Faust would be so confident that Skif won't shoot in his head the first second he enters the room? And if he didn't worry about his possible defeat at the Duga, why bother to place so many emitters around himself?

normal drum
fossil depot
strong flume
#

So I've been thinking, Scar went through the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Program just as Strelok did, Strelok's mission was to elimate himself in short...but what was Scar's mission? We see he got the memories of someone else who was a part of the OG Spark that got captured same as him, so was his Mission to eliminate the Ward at any cost?

deep forum
# strong flume So I've been thinking, Scar went through the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Program just as Stre...

My theory is highly speculative:

After clear sky they noticed that it is not impossible that they get eliminated some day. They tried to plan for that with the subtle matter theory in mind.
Scar must have been programmed after Ward's appearance so if we assume that C-Con programmed him, we have to accept that even after death their subtle matter imprint (though imperfect just like Strider) has enough reach to affect programmings.
They then set up Scar to create the shining zone to basically "revive" them and bring them back to power.

I do think they cared a little about ward given Kurshnov's (I probably bitchered the name) involvement.

Most interesting information would be: when was Scar programmed? I think pretty late and most of his memories aren't his.

magic current
normal drum
ornate ventureBOT
#
psyghm has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

spark bay
# strong flume So I've been thinking, Scar went through the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Program just as Stre...

Scar's earliest mission can be found in the following documents:

From the "cooms session log": On 2011/9/10, V.D. told Kalancha to accept Agent A:MS-017 and monitor his activities, as well as whether his neural programming was unstable; V.D. also instructed him to look into the killing of A:LS-013.

From the "Scar's profile": It is recorded that Scar/A:MS-017.

Since V.D. in the cooms session log mentioned that the energy release storm was the result of unstable Noosphore energy, and considering that the only people who could know this are the seven individuals who originally became C-consciousness, V.D. must be Valentin Dalin, and the representative of C-consciousness.

Therefore, Dr. Kalancha, the Clear Sky group, and Scar are all subordinates of C-consciousness.

Additionally, Strelok infiltrated the CNPP underground with Fen and Ghost in September 2011 to avoid the brain scorcher, but they were stopped by a password lock and couldn't get in. C-consciousness discovered this when they retreated, and tried to use the energy release storm to kill this group of STALKERs. Therefore, A:LS should be: Assassination: Lone Stalker - Serial Number.

Thus, A:MS-017 should correspond to: Agent: Mind Control Subject - Serial Number.

Furthermore, the "cooms session log" also mentioned that Scar's neural programming should be monitored, which suggests that Scar must have already fallen into the TV trap and been captured as part of the STALKER program. The goal was to kill Strelok.

But if you've played Clear Sky, you'll know that the ending is: during the gunfight between Scar and Strelok, Scar shot off Strelok's PSI protective helmet. C-consciousness then used the energy storm to engulf both of them.

Thus, the conclusion of the Clear Sky story is: Strelok was successfully captured and turned into a STALKER agent, while Scar was also recovered.

#

Although in Stalker 2, you learn that C-consciousness did not disappear due to Strelok's sabotage, the original goal of Scar—to kill Strelok—ended in failure.

As a result, this led to Scar’s fate of being brainwashed again, which is known as the Reflection Program.

The Reflection Program, as the name suggests, is a process of self-reflection or an attempt to improve one's deficiencies. However, it can also be viewed as a re-education program, similar to a punitive labor camp. From this, we can infer that C-consciousness was dissatisfied with Scar's performance and directly "reset" his mind again. But who’s memory was implanted in him? It wasn’t his own, but another person’s: Marshall.

Returning to Stalker 2, before you duel with Scar, you will see his brainwashed memories of Marshall: 2013/9/17, though the location remains unknown. However, at the start of the game, you will meet Squint, who tells you he was ordered by Ward to be expelled. Fifteen minutes later, Ward’s troops even killed his companions. You spare Squint’s life, and he later appears in the Sparks storyline. In brief, Squint's earliest companion might have been Marshall, and after Marshall was captured, he was thrown into the TV trap, had his memories extracted, and was left in that room to die and decay.

Marshall’s memories were then used by C-consciousness as "material" to reprogram and brainwash Scar, making him believe those memories were his own, thus instilling hostility towards Ward.

So why does C-consciousness oppose Ward? Because Ward and the Committee behind him are rebooting Project X and generating power from Noosphore, which would endanger the survival of C-consciousness.

#

Sorry, I forgot to mention the location of Marshall. If you're following the Sparks storyline, Scar will tell you that after waking up in Yaniv, he led a small faction in the chemical plant, until Ward forcibly drove them out and even killed his companions. Considering that you already know Scar’s memories belong to Marshall and the chemical plant is Ward's main base, the whole story outline becomes quite clear. Squint, Richter, and Marshall were all once at the chemical plant, until Ward expelled them. Severely injured, Marshall was sent to the STALKER program, where C-consciousness exploited his memories and then implanted those memories into Scar’s mind.

#

The threat that Ward poses to C-consciousness can be traced back to the First Caribbean Experiment. The method of the experiment was simple: aim a psychic emitter at the ionosphere's Noosphore, scrape off part of the Noosphore to transform it into an Alpha Artifact. For humans, the Alpha Artifact can serve as a translator for beta psychic electromagnetic waves, allowing remote control of generators and even connecting with Noosphore, offering numerous benefits. However, for C-consciousness, which has already become a part of Noosphore, the Caribbean Experiment threatens the integrity of Noosphore, not to mention directly extracting Noosphore energy to generate power.

Therefore, C-consciousness opposes Ward's use of Noosphore to generate power, as well as the Second Caribbean Experiment to create more Alpha Artifacts. This led to instructions for Scar to destroy the second Caribbean Experiment. Although the experiment was successful, the Alpha Artifact ended up destroying Skif’s home.

However, since Alpha Artifacts have already appeared, C-consciousness sees it as better to directly take them for themselves. The plan then shifted to acquiring the Alpha Artifacts to continue fulfilling C-consciousness’s original goal: to eliminate humanity’s dark shining zones. To achieve this, it was necessary to make people believe that C-consciousness exists and is immortal. This is why Scar was tasked with figuring out how to repair the X-17 Holographic Projector.

The remaining issue lies with two uncertain factors: Faust and the person who brought the Alpha Artifact into the Zone, Skif.

strong flume
# spark bay Sorry, I forgot to mention the location of Marshall. If you're following the Spa...

Oh yeah I remember Marshall's PDA, I was thinking he might've been a part of the STALKER program, sorry for not remembering it completely here but if I remember correctly it stated that he was gonna head North after the Chemical Plant incident with the Ward after implying he was gonna cause them a lot of problems beforehand so that way they couldn't catch him, now depending on the timeline he could've been captured by Monolith, Brain Scorched, or was part of the STALKER program and just was left to rot in that hallway until he died basically

#

At least that's my take on what happened to him, cause he was alive enough to be messaging another Stalker, I think Spirit?

spark bay
#

Since the artifact gradually loses its power outside of the Zone, it must be recharged near the Noosphore. Therefore, for C-consciousness, they only need to wait for someone to pick up the Alpha Artifact, who will then sell it to a STALKER for profit. The STALKER will then smuggle it into the Zone to recharge it, providing an opportunity for Scar's plan to move forward.

Hermann, on the other hand, plans to use Skif for his own purposes. This is reflected in the act he performs on Skif at the beginning of the game. He already knows that Skif has an Alpha Artifact, and he intends to steal it. Before transporting Skif into the Zone, Hermann contacts Faust, using SIRCA’s remote access to the Monolith Control Center. He requests Faust to send his men to assassinate Skif and seize the artifact.

Once successful, Hermann likely also planned to betray Faust by asking him to transport artifact to a designated location. However, Faust realized Hermann's intentions and refused. He instead told Hermann that if he wanted the artifact, he should come to the Clear Sky Base in the Swamps and take it himself, leading to a standoff. Later, Faust probably used Hermann’s access rights to go to the basement of the Clear Sky Base to search for any remaining Monolith members and assess their numbers, preparing for a potential coup and the revival of the Monolith.

As for Skif going to the Swamps to find Faust, this was likely something Faust anticipated. In the end, as you see, he calmly manipulates Skif.

#

For C-consciousness, Faust is considered "uncontrollable," because Faust was originally a STALKER, then likely fell into the TV trap, becoming an agent. He was later sedated and sent to X-5 for a brain modification procedure, making him a test subject of the Controller Project.

Fortunately, he was the only sample that retained his humanity and was sent by C-consciousness to Monolith for self-protection. However, after X-7 was destroyed, Faust could be said to have become "free" from his original mission. Since he joined and took control of the entire Monolith network, you could say he became the core of Monolith itself.

But the price of his freedom was the loss of the network, leaving him without a purpose or sense of belonging. This led to his plan to revive Monolith. However, for C-consciousness, Faust became problematic because they could no longer control him, especially now that he no longer had a mission. Ironically, Monolith could become an obstacle to their plans.

So, for Scar and C-consciousness, Faust and Monolith are tools to be used, hoping to have Monolith and Ward destroy each other. But if Monolith becomes too powerful, they would still need to eliminate that threat.

spark bay
jagged hull
spark bay
#

As for Scar and the goals of C-consciousness, you can learn from the main storyline "Visions of Truth" that Scar and C-consciousness are in agreement that the Shining Zone really does exist. They truly want to make the Shining Zone a reality, leading humanity toward a new era.

But what exactly is the Shining Zone?

Interestingly, you can gather some insight from the encounters with zombies, where you hear their mutterings: "Too bright... Too many people." Even though their brains are damaged, it seems they can still perceive the illusions they are capable of seeing, or perhaps what they imagine to be the Noosphore state.

And on the Sparks route, when you reach the Promin CMD underground, you encounter what seems to be an unknown agent's ghost asking you who you are. From this, you might form a hypothesis: after death, life becomes part of the Noosphore information, potentially manifesting as a ghost or through some anomalous phenomenon in the Zone. The energy storms also seem to reveal fragments of information these life forms once knew.

So, technically speaking, the theory is that if everyone were forcibly connected to the Noosphore, it could achieve the goal that C-consciousness and Scar envision: a world where everyone can communicate, erasing the evil of human nature, leaving only the pure light of the Shining Zone. But the cost? It could be a world where all of humanity turns into zombies.

Well, I haven’t reached the Scar ending yet, so this is just my speculation. There may be some errors in this conclusion.

spark bay
# jagged hull i think its safe to say that faust wasnt a consideration in c-cons plans; scar's...

C-consciousness would probably oppose it, lol. Technically speaking, the Monolithians would kill everyone else, leaving only the Monolithians. C-consciousness, on the other hand, wants humanity to live without worry, without sin, without gunfights, and without troubles.

Indeed, in the game's zombie state, where the brain is damaged and moral, judgment, and thinking functions are lost, leaving only fragmented memories and limited movement, it’s hard to say whether they are happy or not. They might even be happy, but Faust probably wouldn’t agree that this is the future of humanity. He would view the Monolithians as eliminating the zombies, so Scar and C-consciousness, along with Faust, would never reach an agreement. Ultimately, they would still end up opposing each other and seeking to eliminate one another.

spark bay
#

So, you might come to a chilling conclusion as to why Scar shows tolerance towards zombies, even sparing those that pose no threat. It’s likely that Scar believes this is the future of humanity entering the Shining Zone. Although they seem dumb, the zombies appear to be happily enjoying their afterlife.

Ironically, for the Noontide members who broke free from brainwashing, they don't kill zombies because they once shared a similar fate—being mind-controlled soldiers. If they had the chance to break free and gain their freedom, why shouldn’t the zombies have the same opportunity? Thus, Noontide believes that one day the zombies could be cured and restored to humanity, which is the opposite of Scar's expectations. They see the limitations of the human body and the darkness of human nature as flaws. If consciousness can be connected and communicated, then even if someone looks like a zombie, what's wrong with it?

vapid spire
normal drum
# spark bay For C-consciousness, Faust is considered "uncontrollable," because Faust was ori...
  • Faust WAS NOT an Agent, how have you come up with this? Captured stalkers of the Controller program were not made Agents, otherwise we would see the STALKER mark on each controller and Faust.
  • Faust was not unique or some kind of exception, anyone (without purposely deleted brain parts, of course, like what they've done with some models) would start to use their powers if they were connected to the Monolith program. The main reason why the scientists didn't start to make a lot of Fausts after the success is because they died shortly afterwards (rookie mistake, they forgot where they put the Suppressor schemes).
  • Faust was free the whole time, it was explained by Dvupalov. Being connected to the network doesn't mean losing freedom (again, while ordinary Monolithians are just under the psi-influence, Faust is directly connected to the core, so, not the same, that's how he could "see" all the brothers, that's why he didn't lose any memories etc.).
  • C-Consciousness didn't have any influence on anything and didn't have any contact with Scar until the visiograph was built. To use Faust was entirely Scar's idea, but it's not like Scar knew anything about him, he didn't even know Faust was a controller.
vital pollen
deep forum
normal drum
# deep forum I am pretty sure the game explicitly tells you that Faust is unique and that eve...

"He hasn't ceased to amaze us since he was connected to the Monolith network."
"And I told them that the only way to create a true Controller is to preserve his capacity to think, to feel, and make decisions!"
"Without consciousness and human empathy, their psi-abilities were pitiful. Faust demonstrated this vividly."

These phrases should be self-explanatory. The scientists didn't succeed because they were suppressing human emotions among all previous attempts of creating a controller. They wanted them to be controlled, to be well-behaved soldiers, while the real secret was lying in allowing them to think freely. When they realised that, they also gave Faust an idea worth living and fighting for - the Monolith - and that's how they achieved their goals, even better - they've created a natural leader. If the scientists had survived, they could've easily make another controllers like Faust, but it's probably for the best that the secret of the perfect controller died with them and Dvupalov.

spark bay
#

https://youtu.be/z5ZWFLBN5kY?si=5aKsOE1ap2e9k_En&t=179

  1. So, Faust isn't a STALKER? Honestly, you can't really tell just from the bandages wrapped around his arms.

  2. What are the sources for the brain surgery in the Controller Program? According to the documents, there are two types: (a) prisoners, (b) stalkers.

Well, I guess I should only make inferences based on the information available. Faust went to the zone because he became a stalker, and he made one mistake, which led to him being controlled by the C-consciousness. There are two types of traps set by the C-consciousness:
a. Being brainwashed into a Monolithian, losing your freedom.
b. Becoming a STALKER agent, meaning falling into the TV trap, getting implanted with a neural modification program, thrown into a death truck as cover, and then crawling out to blend into the crowd and carry out a covert mission.

Faust is not type (a), so by process of elimination, the only remaining option is (b) — the STALKER Program route.

#

As for whether Monolithians can use psychic powers, the main quest "An Act of Mercy" already provides an answer. The doctor will ask you to infiltrate the Monolithian underground base to steal a Regeneration Device. This is the method used by the C-consciousness to heal Monolithians and prevent others from exploiting it: only those who have completely lost their psi resistance can use it to repair their bodies and remove radiation exposure effects. It sounds good, but the cost is that once you receive psychic radiation signals, you either turn into a zombie, or you are re-brainwashed into becoming a Monolithian again.

Without the Regeneration Device, Monolithians' ability to heal and resist radiation will gradually fade over time. Only Faust remembers this; the other Monolithians can't access memories of their past selves because their brains can no longer read their former Monolithian memories. So, are there other psi powers? Like the various mutants you encounter in the wild? No.

#

Finally, let's talk about freedom. Why do I say Faust is not free? Once captured by the C-consciousness, even if you become a relatively free infiltrator agent like Dark, it might seem like freedom, but in reality, even he might not be aware of his hidden agenda, and he actively carries it out. So, compared to absolute freedom, he is still bound by the tasks assigned to him by the C-consciousness.

You could say Faust is free because he’s connected to the Monolith network, but considering the ultimate goal assigned to him—protecting the C-consciousness and its secrets—he is not truly free in the personal sense. Only when the X-7 connection pods are completely destroyed, then the Monolith network was shut down. In conclusion, both Faust and the Monolithians failed, but in losing their missions, they also gained freedom. They can now do whatever they want on the wild island. However, for Faust, this is not a joyful freedom, because he believes he has lost the original purpose he fought for.

jagged hull
#

which is exactly why scar exists, everyone being turned into walking husks as soon as they enter the zone is just as good of a defense as an army of monolithians

strong flume
# spark bay I haven’t found much documentation on this, so I’m unable to provide a clear ans...

Yeah I found the PDA again right before you fight Scar in the TV programming hallway, it's basically just literally Marshall recounting the events at the Chemical Plant, and it starts off with the same Story of why Scar hates the Ward he gives you near Rostok when you give him the Psi Emitter at the train station, then it goes on to Marshall being told by Spirit not to openly defy Korshunov, then Marshall tells Spirit not to worry and that he'll go North where he knows he'll be safe

strong flume
# spark bay Finally, let's talk about freedom. Why do I say Faust is not free? Once captured...

I kinda think Faust is more free than the STALKER program stalkers, like if he got the TV experiment done on him again 1. he's "blind" 2. I don't think he'd die, I think he got influenced another way, he states he took an "awkward misstep" and his whole world changed in his self reflection before he died, so I think he got halfway to being turned into a Monolithian or put into the STALKER program but the scientists pulled him from it and instead put him into the controller experiments and that's where he got his powers and abilities, he had already halfway became Monolithian or a C-con agent, so was easily influenced into believing the Monolith without the use of the wishgranter and that's what made him succeed, he actually believed in the Monolith and thanks to his psi connection, he would very well hear the Monolith and apparently even after Strelok destroyed their pods

deep forum
normal drum
# spark bay https://youtu.be/z5ZWFLBN5kY?si=5aKsOE1ap2e9k_En&t=179 1. So, Faust isn't a STA...
  1. For a stalker to become a regular Agent, several conditions need to be met:

  • It has to happen at least after 2009 after stalking in the Zone became popular and creating Agents to eliminate dangerous stalkers has got any sense.

  • A stalker needs to try to go to the north of the Zone.

  • A stalker needs to be programmed in the X7 neurolaboratory and sent with to the Zone via a death truck.

Faust doesn't meet any of the conditions. He was, most probably, one of the first stalkers in the Zone (Faust even met Dvupalov before he left the project), was captured at the Duga, and was sent directly to the X5 lab. Again, controllers and Faust were neither Monolithians nor Agents.

  1. Just literally look at the X5 documents, there is a graphic image of how it's done. Or did you think controllers were created purely from the psi-influence?

  2. You probably misunderstood something because I never said Monolithians have any psychic powers.

  3. Again, Dvupalov explains that Faust doesn't obey the MDST. Yes, he did believe the orders from the C-Consciousness were actually the orders from the Monolith. But it's not the same as being an Agent. If you carefully listened to the Representative, you would know the Agent programming is fully autonomous and doesn't depend on any connections with anything, which doesn't correlate with your thought that Faust became free only after 2012. Also, Agents were never used to directly protect the centre of the Zone. The whole point of them is to be hidden among the regular stalkers to do their mission, while Faust was literally the Voice of the Monolith. The point "he didn't know about the hidden motives" also doesn't work because when Skif told him about who he is, Faust answered: "You wouldn't have answered any differently. I'm not surprised." He knew everything but for him an idea was more important than the truth. He was among his brothers, they were happy.

spark bay
#

I don't understand why you're so insistent on arguing with me about this. Honestly, if you disagree, that's fine. I can accept that.

I've made it clear that Faust does not explicitly mention becoming a STALKER or being captured and experimented on after being imprisoned.

So, if you want to say he's on Path A, meaning a prisoner, that's fine with me because it's also a possibility. I’m not going to waste time nitpicking your arguments just to win a debate—for example, with statements like 'It has to happen at least after 2009 after stalking in the Zone became popular and creating Agents to eliminate dangerous stalkers has got any sense.' Is there any concrete documentation to support that?

This is also personal speculation, so in terms of debate, I think arguing over these 'gaps' in the game has little significance. I’m not going to waste my time on these speculations.

Similarly, since you're already aware that the two paths I mentioned refer to the X-5 documents describing the origins of their surgeries and the people involved, wasn’t your second point just asking a question you already knew the answer to? What was the point of asking that?

robust laurel
normal drum
spark bay
robust laurel
#

So why should I point out mistakes to someone who doesn't want to participate in the discussion?

normal drum
spark bay
#

Wow, you're completely ignoring everything I wrote above just because I don’t want to argue about the gaps in the game where there's no clear evidence. Since I don’t want to debate that point, you conveniently turn around and say everything I said is wrong. How convenient, isn’t it?

robust laurel
#

I am not obliged to prove the absence of something.

normal drum
robust laurel
#

I can also start making up complete nonsense that has nothing to do with what was in the game. For example, the entire plot of the game is Herman's illusion. Prove that this is not so.

magic current
# vapid spire You think c-con kept agents in stasis pods similar to the green ones they use?

To be fair thats a problem that originated in Clear Sky - it’s a prequel, but there is no mention of Scar existing in SoC. Clear Sky’s ending begins with Scar’s point of view - S2 alludes to it as well. And CoP didn’t touch on him either - but since Spark originated there, this Marshall was post-2013(?) as well. So Scar must’ve been some sort of „backup” between 2011 and memory transplant, but how was he fed etc. No idea.

#

Or they told him to take a stroll and come back latersmile_scar

robust laurel
fossil depot
robust laurel
spark bay
#

Considering Faust's unique characteristics, I am inclined to define the following different types of individuals and their degrees of freedom, in order to clarify the question of so-called freedom.

  1. Normal Person (Skif)
    Complete behavioral freedom
    No restrictions or regulations whatsoever

  2. Stalker Agent (Dark)
    Appears to have complete behavioral freedom
    However, exhibits abnormal obsession with certain objectives
    Executes objectives without questioning or refusing

  3. Faust
    Joined Monolith
    Acts according to Monolith's mission
    Committed to protecting the C-Consciousness and equipment as commanded(?-2012)

  4. Monolithian
    Brainwashed to execute commands protecting the C-Consciousness and equipment
    Has no discretionary authority

In brief, compared to a normal person, Faust after joining Monolith does not possess complete behavioral freedom. Yes, he remembers more things than a Monolithian, and he lives happily, but he still obeys Monolith's will. Even after the Monolith's voice disappeared in 2012, the audio logs from the Clear Sky base show that while he was free, he was depressed because he had no sense of belonging.

I hope this itemized explanation can avoid falling back into the debate of "Faust is not a Stalker agent, therefore he has been free from the beginning to the end."

fossil depot
#

Skif is SO not normal...

#

Man is basically a war machine with IMPRESSIVE skills at weapons handling and an even more impressive skill at punching through entire armies of people.

#

He makes the Monolith look like a bunch of kids with toy guns.

robust laurel
fossil depot
#

This is basically Inception...

#

She began to believe that her world was fake. Cobb didn't brain-wash her, didn't experiment on her, didn't cause any biological/technological enhancements.

All he did...was plant an idea in her mind. An idea that became a virus.

robust laurel
# fossil depot

But in fact, I revealed the entire retelling of the Faust story in my video. But I can't post links here because otherwise it would be self-promotion, which is forbidden.

fossil depot
#

That's Faust. He took the idea of the Monolith and went with it.

fossil depot
spark bay
# fossil depot

Oh, thank you. I’m still looking for the video where Dvupalov comments on Faust. What I was trying to say is exactly what Dvupalov mentioned in the third image.

robust laurel
fossil depot
#

Yes, but Dvupalov says 'free will'. Granted, Dvupalov is drunk as shit 99% of the time, but when HE says 'free will', he does mean someone not bound by the Agent programming.

Now, unless he's like Dalin (things being hidden from him and he doesn't know some background shit), I'm pretty sure he means that Faust is neither an agent, nor brain-washed.

#

Though...I guess Faust might've lost parts of himself in the memory wipe. Since he only remembers the Monolith and not his life as a stalker or anything before.

At least not explicitly.

#

Like, he mentions that he was a stalker and took 'a wrong step', but...his very different name (compared to others) along with him working for a singular goal rather than going to the Mainland or anything...I doubt he has retained his memories of anything before.

robust laurel
spark bay
#

Alright, alright, Faust is not an agent. The game doesn't explain how his 'mistake' led him to become a subject of the Controller program.

fossil depot
robust laurel
fossil depot
fossil depot
robust laurel
#

I also have an assumption that also has indirect confirmation from the game that different people tolerate programming differently. Well, for example, someone with high-level psi protection can recode it many times. And someone, for example, like the Dark one, who could not withstand repeated programming.

#

Probably someone didn't even survive the first programming

spark bay
#

Since the X-5 documents note that previous surgeries often led to a degradation of cognitive abilities and humanity, and considering Faust is blind in the game, I personally believe that while Faust is the only Controller who retains his humanity and reason, it doesn’t mean his mind is still the same as a normal adult. You can see this from his statement 'I want to make all Monolithians happy,' but he doesn't seem to realize whether the previous Monolithians also wanted to go back to being Monolithians, or not.

This also explains why the Faust observation room in X-5 has children's toys like building blocks and the wish stone that Faust assembled.

#

You could say that the brain damage caused by the surgery, while giving Faust the ability to 'see' the anomalous powers, essentially makes him more like a case of mental impairment. It wasn’t until he died and was about to enter the micro-substance realm that he was freed from the confines of his physical body, allowing him the chance to reflect on his own actions—though it was too late for his life.

As for Scar, it’s a very typical tragedy. If I were to eventually discover that all my memories were someone else’s, and I couldn’t remember or tell whether my past memories were also someone else’s—whether it was the result of C-consciousness brainwashing and 'resetting'—what could I still trust? It would actually be quite reasonable to collapse under such a realization.

robust laurel
#

Well, on the Duga, he realized his mistake.

As for toys, in psychology, as far as I know, this is usually a thing for testing cognitive abilities even in adults. For example, how a person reacts to simple figures, images, etc. For this, Dvupalov also read lines of the work to check understanding of the metaphor.

#

As for Scar, not all the memories are there. Only specific key ones. They were shown on TV

fossil depot
normal drum
#

.

fossil depot
#

Oh...fair.

fossil depot
#

Is there any lore reason why Strelok let Wolfhound live?

jagged hull
#

canonically every main character we have played as is much less genocidal than what we see of them in gameplay

#

ig genocidal may not be entirely accurate, the amount of people we fight in the games is blown up massively to make the gameplay more interesting. in reality most enemies you might kill in any of the stalker games are mostly just avoided

spark bay
# fossil depot Yes, but Dvupalov says 'free will'. Granted, Dvupalov is drunk as shit 99% of th...

In the libertarian view or Kantian conception of freedom, the essence of freedom lies in “acting according to one’s own reason or will, rather than being compelled by external forces.”

Therefore:
If a person voluntarily chooses to join the military—without coercion—then they are still exercising their free will, even if the result of that choice is obedience to orders or restriction of movement.

This is logically valid, because the key point lies not in how free the outcome is, but in whether the choice itself was free.

However, when someone says,
“He freely chose to give up his freedom, so he is still free,”they are actually using two different meanings of the word “freedom” within the same sentence.

Logically, this is called an equivocation fallacy—using the same term with different meanings in different contexts, which makes the argument appear coherent while it actually shifts the concept.

From a strictly logical perspective:
If freedom means “a state of being unrestricted,” then he has indeed lost part of his freedom. For example, if one joins Monolith and commits to protecting the C-Consciousness and the assigned equipment as commanded, then claiming “he joined voluntarily, therefore he is free” is simply a redefinition of freedom.

In reality, there are two kinds of freedom here:
the freedom to join, and the lack of freedom after joining. If one uses the former to deny the latter—that he is in fact constrained—then that constitutes a logical fallacy of equivocation.

robust laurel
# spark bay In the libertarian view or Kantian conception of freedom, the essence of freedom...

Actually, you’re misunderstanding Kant’s conception of freedom.
Kant distinguishes two levels of freedom:
Empirical (external) freedom — the ability to act without physical restraint in the world of appearances.
Transcendental (moral) freedom — the autonomy of reason, acting according to one’s own rational will, independent of causal determination.
So what you call an “equivocation” is not a logical fallacy in Kant’s view — it’s precisely the core distinction of his philosophy.
A person can be physically constrained yet still morally free, if they rationally and voluntarily choose their duty — for example, joining the military or accepting an obligation.
Thus, the statement “he freely chose to give up part of his freedom, and is still free” is logically consistent in the Kantian sense,
because it refers not to the freedom of movement, but to the freedom of the will.
In short, you’re analyzing freedom only in its physical sense,
while Kant is talking about autonomy — freedom as self-legislation of reason.

#

Kant spoke of free will in the context of free will being complete only if the individual is completely free from the causal connection of the world.

jagged hull
#

damn did the dude leave....

manic crown
#

out-philosophized

midnight vault
#

So Faust really played everyone, assuming you going for the Skiff ending, including the C-con ?
He is not loyal to anyone but the Zone?

#

Is the Monolith is basically just C-con disguise as a god to mind control their army or is there anything else to it? Given how in the Skiff ending epilogue, Faust talking like the Monolith is real and still alive or something.

subtle drift
#

On 2nd playthrough Richter just sounds like a deranged Zone fanatic lol

subtle drift
normal drum
midnight vault
#

But isn't the Monolith just the C- consciousness?

normal drum
# midnight vault But isn't the Monolith just the C- consciousness?

The Monolith is a program that's s telling the people how they should feel and what they should do, the Monolith is a network that's connecting those of people. But for Faust it's an idea, he chose to believe in the Monolith, for him to serve it is his meaning of the life. He didn't understand (until he was defeated) that other people want to live differently, that's why he was so disappointed in Strider and the Noontide because of their rejection of the Monolith, he didn't like how Strider dragged everyone further into swamps, how his brothers were suffering on the Wild Island, dying from the chemicals and stalkers. And it solidified the idea in his mind that the Monolith is the only right choice, that it has cursed the Noontiders and left but will return to save them once again.

ornate ventureBOT
#
speciuletz has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

strong flume
#

Honestly I just saw the description for a lot of the Duty gear and holy shit the fall from grace they took is even worse than I thought, like their rank and file uniforms are called body bags cause of how useless they are at pretty much everything, their gear's only bonus is being cheap and efficient (Honestly when master difficulty comes out I definitely wanna see if those armors become the go to armors for being affordable and somewhat decent) I definitely hope we can see a DLC involving them soon

midnight vault
strong flume
full crown
#

when we meet scar why didnt the zombies attacks us?

fathom veldt
#

about what Master mode is? same crap as other modes? npc has more HP and you get less reward? After veteran gameplay hardly want to experience bs again

normal drum
# full crown when we meet scar why didnt the zombies attacks us?

3 possible explanations:

  1. They were zombified Sparkers (not only Squint) and their fragmented brains still recognised their former allies;
  2. No one wanted to attack them either. Zombies haven't felt any aggressive alpha-psi from others so they haven't become aggressive, too;
  3. Scar influenced them
    3.1) with his bread artefact or
    3.2) with some kind of a device. Scar is hinted to be a person with knowledge of how to handle psi-devices (like when he was "taught a few tricks" by Ozerskyi), so he could've built something that can pacify the zombified.
full crown
ornate ventureBOT
#
robotix80 has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

fringe onyx
#

What is actually the true ending? On the internet, it's often said that the Overseer ending is the true ending. But in that ending, the Zone is destroyed, which would make DLC impossible. The same would apply to the Kayman ending, since Strelok is then trapped in a glass container. The same goes for Scar's ending. So the only logical ending for the true ending would be the Strelok ending, unless you play as someone else in the DLC, then the Kayman ending would also be a possibility, which I doubt though.

jagged hull
#

dlc is unlikely to happen after the ending and will most probably just add a story that happens parallel to the main one

silver canyon
#

Is the only place with mutants Chernobyl or is the rest of the world also messed up

vapid spire
#

If the dlc happens after the story and the skif ending is the canon one, what are the chances of skif getting out of the pod?

#

Also would skif getting out of the pod reverse the zone expansion?

indigo dew
#

Just finished 2 today, became Ward's lapdog. I spoiled myself on all other endings because I'll only play again once DLC is out and hopefully by then, the engine has been upgraded as well

#

I like how none of the endings is good. Keeps the tradition of endings being all hopeless and grim going

#

Wish GSC added a secret ending where Skif could just f off to specific areas in the edges of the map to leave the Zone if the player manages to grind, like, five million koupons or something. Bro straight up just leaves after getting the money to buy a new apartment. Similar to Far Cry 4's secret ending that you can get in the very beginning of the game

jagged hull
#

its not a process you can return back to normal from

twin zodiac
#

Hows is psi pronounced? I always assumed it was similar to sigh but heard Skif say it as see in a cutscene the other day

jagged hull
#

pseye is more accurate i think

twin zodiac
#

I thought so too, maybe it's just a quirk of the English language dialogue

jagged hull
#

psee is only used in a few places i think

half sky
#

In Polish its psee (short ee)
In English I heard mostly pseye

vital pollen
midnight vault
fathom veldt
magic current
#

While it’s clear major English voice actors received clear instructions on how to „slavicly” pronounce „Strelok” or „Pripyat”, there’s no single correct way for „psi”

fathom veldt
light plume
late cedar
# indigo dew I like how none of the endings is good. Keeps the tradition of endings being all...

||Technically, the only 'good' ending in my eyes is the one with Strelok entering the pod.
The Zone remains as she is, the only difference is that nobody can enter or exit the Zone since it is entirely blocked off.
Economy would still be thriving as it is right now with Rostok and the Coupons. Artifacts would just be for personal use rather than to sell them off.
Only option that allows for S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 3 as well since the other endings either mean that the zone dissolves, spreads all around the globe or all stalkers within the Zone live in a psi dream and get torn apart by mutants.||

#

But who knows, maybe there'll be some DLC with the Wish Granter in the CNPP.
We can wish for more DLC's!

indigo dew
#

only for transactions and not cringe speculation trading perhaps

#

"HOW TO MAKE $20K A DAY IN THE ZONE JUST BY TRADING $KOUPONS (TUTORIAL 2025)!"

strong flume
# late cedar But who knows, maybe there'll be some DLC with the Wish Granter in the CNPP. We ...

Isn't the Wish Granter technically still at SIRCAA though as well? I mean I'm down to have a DLC start with us investigating what became of it kinda then exploring a new region and discovering some new twisted shit like the cold lands or whatever they were called that Scar mentions when we give him the psi emitter but yeah thinking about it, we just kinda left that whole Wish Granter unpowered in SIRCAA while we shot our way out

#

Would be funny af if the DLC is just the Monolith Ending where we turn the Wish Granter back on and join the Monolithians in cleansing the Zone now just based in the old SIRCAA ruins

magic current
stray reef
late cedar
#

Maybe it was all a dream and Skif woke up at a campfire in the Rookie Village in 2012 after getting scammed by Sidorovich

stray reef
#

||Ward: You get your apartment keys, leave The Zone which has no anomalies as witnessed by stone structure crumbling. Then you see the monitor. Either Skif is now part of Leash Project or all of what we were seeing are just memories implanted into his brain. Remember he wakes up after Korshunov entered Kaymanov capsule. Agatha who was using Korshunov as relay could've emitted psi-wave knocking Skif out. She handles you keys personally but the plan was to have her stay at remote location. She also says "provide whatever Stalker wants". All of that sounds like Skif is dormant in coma. Scar: That one is easy, we can see that Skif is either a zombie or in permanent delirium. At least Scar is happy, I can imagine he did not care that all of it are psi-induced hallucinations, as long as he is happy and everyone around him tricked to also be "happy". Skif/Kaymanov/Faust: You enter the chamber and set The Zone "free" which just makes it spread around the world. Strelok: Status quo maintained. You are trapped within The Zone but at least you are free. I can see Skif get out with modified scanner just like he could use one to get to Jupiter/Prypiat through tunnels filled with electro anomalies. Also ironic as every ending does provide you with new home. You are either stuck in capsule as literal part of The Zone, or trapped in Zone in some way or form. At least with Strelok you do not get brainwashed. This might also be the canon ending leading to DLC at Limansk or whatever is next. I could see the DLC being a McGuffin chase after some scanner amplifier to temporarly disable anomalies at The Zone's border.||

normal drum
normal drum
# stray reef ||Ward: You get your apartment keys, leave The Zone which has no anomalies as wi...
  • Skif becomes an Agent, the game literally says that you can see through Agents' eyes with a neuroprogrammer. Beside that, he isn't altered in any way. Skif gets what he wanted - home.
  • That one is not that "easy". Shortly - here (the last paragraph): #s2-lore-discussions message Skif gets what he wanted - home.
  • The main action happens in the Duga which activates the other Generators around the world, it's currently unknown if Doctor wanted someone to be in the capsule or not. It's the only ending where Skif stops caring only about his own goals and sacrifices himself for the freedom of both humanity and the Zone (basically, Skif has the same the same point of view as Strelok but he doesn't want to interfere like Strelok did with the usage of the X-Network - because, as the Zone in its pure form works as a mirror of humanity, the Zone can defend itself, without any "help").
  • Skif is not "trapped", he's satisfied with what happened. More about that: #s2-lore-discussions message (5 hours long conversation). Skif gets what he wanted - home.
ornate ventureBOT
#
chingbillin420 has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

robust laurel
# normal drum - Skif becomes an Agent, the game literally says that you can see through Agents...

I don’t understand why so many people want to feel deceived or wronged. Why is it so hard for people to simply be happy for the protagonist? I keep seeing this pattern — whether it’s the Spark, Ward, or Strelok endings — it’s always the same:

“It’s not that simple, we were actually tricked.”

To me, that’s pure resentiment — the constant need to find deceit or hidden evil behind every good thing.

Ward:
“It can’t be that they actually gave Skif what he wanted, because media has taught me that corporations are evil, and if you’re on their side, they’ll inevitably betray you.”
But there’s not a single hint in the game suggesting that Agatha betrays us. On the contrary — she betrays the Board in order to make everyone happy.
So even though we sided with the authorities (or the corporation — it’s never made explicit), they still lose in the end, because their original goal was different.
Where does this logic come from — “if a corporation rewards you, it must be a trap”?
Or this false dichotomy: “a good ending can’t be good if it comes from a corporation”? That’s just ideological conditioning, not analysis.

#

Spark:
The same story. The ending depicts eternal happiness — basically paradise — and yet people still try to find something sinister behind it.
Where does this nihilism come from? This refusal to live, this rejection of happiness?
Why do people believe that if happiness is eternal, it stops being happiness?
Why do they assume that if life is infinite, it loses meaning?
In fact, it’s the opposite: infinity means endless opportunities to find new meanings within it. The question of “the meaning of life” is relevant only to mortals — not to those who live forever. Immortality removes the urgency of “how do I live meaningfully before I die?”

In the ending, it’s not a theory — it’s explicitly shown that people have become immortal shells, their minds living on in a paradise-like simulation, essentially a kind of digital heaven. But why is that a problem?

“But I want to live in the real world.”

Why, though? Why live in an “objective reality” filled with pain, death, and suffering?
What exactly does the fact of objectivity give me?

As Richter said, “Reality is whatever you think is real.”
So yes, this is close to solipsism, but I genuinely don’t understand this urge to suffer — this desire to “die in objective reality.”
For me, that’s the true form of resentiment — a will to negation rather than affirmation, a refusal to live simply because happiness feels suspicious.

The only legitimate question in this context is the problem of free will. That’s meaningful — because in a simulated paradise, can one still choose freely?
But even then, eternal life outweighs that concern. There’s a phrase that captures this perfectly:

“I want to live forever — and so far, so good.”

That’s the purest expression of the will to live.
Whereas this constant, deliberate urge to see deception, darkness, or to prefer “dying in reality” over “living in illusion” — that’s what truly baffles me.
Because in illusion, free will still exists. You can still live, still choose, still feel.

#

There’s no real problem — except the one people create for themselves.

#

And as for Strelok, who supposedly “betrayed” Skif and trapped him in the Zone — I won’t even start on that. If people want to believe that everyone is lying and deceiving them, that’s their right.

#

And finally — remember, you are the protagonist in your own playthrough. Refusing to be happy for the hero is, in the end, refusing to be happy for yourself.

full crown
#

So that thing that’s goine down in emissions that’s hitting the genators ?

half sky
# robust laurel And finally — remember, you are the protagonist in your own playthrough. Refusin...

There definitely is better and worse endings but it is not as bad as everyone says it is.

The worst is probably Spark because it is not stated that you become immortal shell to live in paradise. It is entirely possible that you become like a zombie and in the end will fade. You are wronged because you are put essentially into a coma that you can't wake up and will wither and die in some time.
That being said yes, you are in paradise so you get wronged from objective point of view. From the Skif POV... not really. You got paradise and happiness. It all worked out.

For Ward I don't know if Agatha is going against the Board but also it is not as grim as people say. You dont become the agent - they can see through your eyes because they connected to the Noosphere, the sphere of humanity thoughts and mind. In a way of speaking they now hear what you hear, see what you see etc. Ward ending gives more idea of humanity being controlled by Agatha and the Board but I would say that is one of the least objectively wronged endings.
You get everything they promised you. You get a home, Zone ends, humanity is advanced technologically. I would say this is only one where there is no betreyal at all.

Strelok from the start goes about isolating the Zone and never promises you home as far as i know so he also doesn't betray you. You get wronged in some way - can't leave the Zone and now Monolith is under Strelok command and can go after you if you try to find a way to breach the new Cordon/Wall but other than that... no.

robust laurel
half sky
robust laurel
#

In no finale does anyone betray Skif.

half sky
robust laurel
# half sky Wait, are they?

In the lore of Stalker 2, this is explicitly stated, and the following facts support it:
The Regenerator heals those whose psi-protection is at zero, i.e., Monolith members and the zombified.
On the bodies of the zombies, there are no signs of decay, rotting, etc. (which was obviously done intentionally, considering the lore).
Scar himself had the ability to physically heal from Emissions (which is similar to how the Regenerator works).

robust laurel
half sky
robust laurel
#

Are you Skif? No one deceived Skif, Skif got what he wanted, but from the player's point of view, the player is deceived? Logical?

half sky
# robust laurel In the lore of Stalker 2, this is explicitly stated, and the following facts sup...

Yes, but the Regenerator is created for Monolithians, its not like Emissions heal them because if they did there would be no need for Regenerator. You can go en masse onto the Emission.

As for Scar - doesn't he have Level 5 Psiprotection? I don't think he had the ability to heal from Emissions, he was just resistant to it and it was told that more emission will kill him (in CS, maybe in S2 there was some other lore)

robust laurel
half sky
robust laurel
#

Once again, there are no signs of decay on the zombie bodies.

half sky
robust laurel
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robust laurel
half sky
robust laurel
#

Because there is no proof of this.

#

Mutants have been sitting in laboratories for years, including zombified ones. If you kill a zombified one in the body, it will stand up again. It is reasonable to assume that there is regeneration

normal drum
robust laurel
#

And if it's just people affected by "psi" then regeneration isn't out of nowhere

robust laurel
# half sky Where, because now I am curious

In Clear Sky, at the beginning of the game, it was said that the indicators were "excellent." If the indicators were normal, they said that they were "normal," and here it was precisely that his condition was above normal.

#

A person who has experienced an emission will not feel in great condition.

robust laurel
#

That is, it is not something that conflicts with each other, but can work separately.

half sky
#

I guess it makes some sense
But now the question is if that is just the Emission or any other powerful psi also heals them? If so then places like Brainscorcher in SoC would have them near immortal

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robust laurel
# half sky Havn't done Strelok ending so I am going from information I have based on ending...

If you choose Strelok’s path and visit the Doctor, Skif will explicitly say that the Zone is now his new home. Later, during the Doctor’s killing, he will say, "We can’t let the monster out," which implies that the Zone should be isolated. Skif agrees with this, especially when at the Red Fortress Strelok explains his position in more detail, and Skif responds, "I’ll help you."

half sky
robust laurel
half sky
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robust laurel
# half sky I know, but Scorcher was extremaly powerful with its psi so it would make sense ...

Here’s the thing. Psi can be compared to radio waves. Radio waves can carry different kinds of information. I understand that the regeneration process is somehow related to this as well. Specifically, where the Scorcher is, it seems he was sending different information through psi; most likely it was either white noise or a targeted zombification of a Monolith member (i.e., it carried information for zombification) but not information about regeneration.
It’s hard to say anything more precise about how exactly this worked, because that would be speculation and guesswork.

#

Also, don't forget that most likely Regenerators use anomalous energy just like Emission, which is anomalous energy, whereas where Scorcher is only psi.

tribal onyx
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Hey, im past the part where the Alpha was activated, and I destroyed the PSI emitter under Icarus.
It confuses me, why would destroy an emitter, then install one because Scar asked nicely? makes no sense unless i misunderstood everything here...

deep forum
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tribal onyx
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tribal onyx
#

im gonna cry, thanks.
the problem is i didnt listen at the beginning, so i got confused fast, and getting back on that saddle, oof XD

robust laurel
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robust laurel
#

I don't really understand your question.

half sky
#

But that has the problem of what was being told in CS - that he can indeed survive the Emissions but his brain gets damaged each time and at one point he will just die from it

normal drum
# half sky I think more like Scar survived Emissions in Clear Sky but instead of it killin...

Emission is a burst of both anomalous energy and psi. The first can heal, the second usually kills (affects the nervous system and the brain), and also usually no one will noticed someone got better from an Emission because they also died from it smile_strelok But Scar has the 5th class psi-protection so he's resistant to the psi so he benefits from the anomalous energy, that's how I see it.

deep forum
#

I don't understand how you cannot understand my question and you are giving no hint regarding what part you are not understanding.

robust laurel
# half sky I think more like Scar survived Emissions in Clear Sky but instead of it killin...

I think that the emissions have a permanent ability to heal people thanks to their anomalous energy; the only problem is that the nervous system can’t handle it. That is, theoretically, if it were possible to make it so that it didn’t destroy the brain or didn’t affect it at all, one could survive the emission. By the way, in Call of Prypiat, there were pills that allowed one to survive an emission.

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robust laurel
#

He is processing.

deep forum
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half sky
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robust laurel
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robust laurel
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robust laurel
#

In the game, the controller can literally bring the dead back to life.

deep forum
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half sky
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robust laurel
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Then you should play the game more carefully.

half sky
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In S2 it looks like that because when you wenture into areas with controllers there are dead bodies around and then they just rise up

deep forum
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In the main story we only see Controllers turn people. It could be that they also raise the dead, but I have not seen that.

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robust laurel
# deep forum In the main story we only see Controllers turn people. It could be that they als...

The conversation turned to whether the zombies are "immortal." The answer is yes, they are immortal. It was already explained why. If you shoot them in the body, they’ll fall down and then get back up again, and they’ll keep doing this forever. The question is what triggers their regeneration. Considering that their brains are essentially connected to the Noosphere, it’s most likely that the Psi is the cause.

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robust laurel
normal drum
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(the dead bodies rise there, too)

deep forum
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I had no npcs in my fight against Scar - if we talk about the situation at the end with the screens and him carrying his Gauss rifle. There was also no controller.

robust laurel
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This is a bug

deep forum
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Tbh. I suspected that Controllers might be able to raise the dead, but I thought maybe only "dead" zombies. There is this bunker in the red forest where you find the dnipro and I thought that I found the zombies dead before they surprised me by fighting me when I turned my back. This probably explains it.

half sky
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I suspect that they shouldnt be able to raise the dead-dead but rather those they killed themselves (shutdown their mind and then reboot it when they want keeping them more in coma than dead state) but since devs couldn't make the game to recognise certain bodies with proper flags (killedByController kind) then it just became this

#

Lets be fair, Controllers in lore are so terryfing that they dont need necromancy abilities

robust laurel
half sky
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Ah, yes, that one, forgot it

#

Also is it a bug that they attack Scar and he them or it is intentional?

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robust laurel
half sky
robust laurel
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Which already proves that they are immortal.

jagged hull
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theyre not immortal theyre already dead

robust laurel
#

And secondly, no. They are not dead. You don't understand the game's lore well.

jagged hull
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all im seeing is just ignoring the fact that stalker zombies follow traditional "zombie rules" in most cases

robust laurel
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Zombified ≠ zombie

jagged hull
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its a one way process its safe to use zombie and zombified interchangably

#

its completely inconsequential whether i use what you deem to be the correct nomenclature

robust laurel
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You can use whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you'll be right in the discussion.

jagged hull
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its a stretch to call zombies alive in the first place, because from what we know they have little going on in their heads and dont really have free will. theyre territorial and when animated by a controller, they just act as bodyguards

robust laurel
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We have an understanding of what happens to the zombified.

#

The lore has it all. Research this topic better in the game.

jagged hull
robust laurel
# jagged hull what disproves this?

The lore provides very detailed explanations of who the “zombified” are and how they operate. Yet you are trying to make up something that has no relation to the game, just because it seemed to you that these zombified behave similarly to classic zombies. I’ll say it again: the zombified are not zombies. They operate on a completely different principle.

  1. Zombified can either be controlled or retain their free will. Their only problem is that they lack psi protection, which makes them easy to manipulate externally.

  2. Psi in the lore has a wide spectrum; it can carry information or act like white noise (analogous to a radio signal).

  3. People become zombified as a result of psi overload (information transmitted through psi from the Noosphere), which essentially connects their brains to the Noosphere. That’s why the consciousness of a single person is insufficient — it takes eight people to merge their minds; otherwise, the individual becomes zombified.

  4. All information about a person is stored in the Noosphere. The brain is only a carrier; if it is unharmed, the information is effectively reloaded back into the brain (see point 3). This is why they can move freely.

  5. The Scar ending directly proves that free will is preserved. If you claim that Skif is controlled by Scar, you need to prove it (spoiler: it’s impossible to prove, so this argument immediately fails).

robust laurel
#

In our lore, there are clear rules about what psi is, how it works, and what the principles are. If you want to simplify everything to "they behave like zombies," fine — but then this is no longer a serious discussion of the lore; it’s just nonsense

jagged hull
#

1 i assume the only example of retaining free will is the scar ending
3 where does the eagerness to equate the mechanics of the x7 pods and other psi emitters come from? i dont see how c-con could achieve what they achieved if all they did was "get zombified" as 7 people. what they did was closer to forming their own psi-emitter with their bodies and use that to affect the noosphere
5 theres little pointing towards skif and the others actually being zombified in the scar ending - every sign points to something like the oasis being formed in the entire zone (which is 100% within the capabilities of scar) as opposed to everyone being zombified via a phantom psi-emitter

(discord for some reason change the numbers from 1 3 5 to 1 2 3 for some reason i fixed it)

jagged hull
robust laurel
robust laurel
# jagged hull 1 i assume the only example of retaining free will is the scar ending 3 where ...

  1. We know this from the documents.

  2. "Little evidence points to it." Well, the scene of the final battle with Scar, where he is guarded by the zombified, doesn’t point to it. The scene on the farm, where he oversees the zombified and calls it the "Shining Zone," doesn’t point to it either. And Skif, who behaves like a zombified in the final scene, doesn’t say anything about it. I have no idea where we even got this from. (Sarcasm)

normal drum
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not again

jagged hull
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i dont see how scar's battle or the scene from the farm prove anything?

robust laurel
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You’re either trolling me or messing with me. Pick one, because I honestly don’t understand how anyone could fail to grasp something this obvious.

jagged hull
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i know this from the documents

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i could just as easily repeat what you are saying but i dont think that gets us anywhere

#

so if you are so convinced in your beliefs could you lay them out for us plebs cuz so far the 2 other examples of "free will" just seem like scar's zombie whisperer abilities that are largely forgotten by the writers

robust laurel
#

Nah man, it’s all good — you’re totally right. The constant mentions of the zombified in the scenes with Scar, not to mention the ones with Spark where they literally zombify themselves, and the entire storyline of Spark and Scar being about zombification — yeah, sure, you’re right. No point discussing the plot with someone like this, I guess. Go on living in your made-up version of the story.

jagged hull
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you have managed to write a paragraph without saying anything

#

make your point. the same effort you use to deflect anything i say could be used for something more constructive

robust laurel
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I’m not going to argue with someone whose version of the story is literally made up in their head. This is just absurd. First, prove the things you’re claiming. You say someone’s free will was taken away? Prove it. You say the zombified are zombies? Then prove it. The fact that it “seems” that way to you is nice and all, but it just shows you don’t understand either the topic you’re talking about or the game’s lore. I’m not here to discuss people’s fantasies about what something “feels like.”

Please, either play the game or stop spreading nonsense about the lore. And when you make a claim, back it up with evidence — not with lines like “that’s just how it looks to me.” Are we discussing our personal impressions here, or are we actually trying to talk about the game’s lore?

Your statement was “the zombified are dead” — that’s where you started, so prove that they’re dead. Because every bit of evidence points to the opposite. What you “think” doesn’t really concern me.

robust laurel
robust laurel
jagged hull
#

the proof for zombies having no free will is in the games very openly - the outlook from every stalker we meet and everything we see with our eyes in the gameplay tells us that theyre needlessly aggressive husks. if this phenomenon of "free willed" zombies was at all a thing in the games, we would actually see it. what we see in stalker 2 in some scenes relating to scar can more easily be explained by scar's inherent powers. via occams razor its safe to assume that the zombies that we saw in the farm arent anything special, because otherwise the first ever sighting of "friendly" zombies was in a cutscene without much other substantiation for the existence of "friendly zombies". the ones in the scar bossfight, suspiciously inside the neuroprogramming lab, who also "die" again just as scar is defeated also arent great examples of friendly zombies.
the proof for zombies being dead is 1) nothing in the games points towards zombification being a reversible progress, such an action is only talked about as a distant possiblity 2) zombies dont show any self preservation, any need for sustenance and have resistance to radiation which is deadly to the human organism. theyre in a vegetative state at best
the reason why i bring up "zombie rules" is that zombies in stalker are just as fantastical as any other zombie in media (apart from maybe the fungal ones). realistically, for the brain to function a constant flow of nutrients via blood is required. the brain cannot function without this, yet a zombie riddled with bullets, losing blood from every bullet opening is just as functional as a healthy one. what i want you to see is that they are very obviously gamified

jagged hull
jagged hull
robust laurel
# jagged hull the proof for zombies having no free will is in the games very openly - the outl...

Honestly, I don’t even know how to comment on this anymore. It’s just another pile of personal assumptions and “well, they act like zombies” takes.

The logic that “they want to destroy themselves, therefore they must be dead” — how does that even work? The fact that they can be controlled only follows from the idea that they lack psi protection. That doesn’t automatically mean all zombified have no free will.

As for the rest of your points — I don’t even see the point in responding. You’re drawing flawed conclusions from surface-level observations while ignoring how the psi mechanics and lore are actually explained.

jagged hull
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please tell me where are all the zombies with free will

#

it really just seems like a made up concept to support the idea that scar's ending zombifies everyone in the zone

#

and dont tell me anything related to scar, i already pointed out how those examples dont help us here

robust laurel
#

I honestly don’t understand the logic you’re using here. Seriously — how did you even reach the conclusions you’re making? “If it wants to die, then it must be dead”? That’s not a logical argument. There are plenty of examples of animals behaving self-destructively, but that doesn’t mean they’re not alive.

jagged hull
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its not about wanting to die its just that self preservation is a universal sign in the animal kingdom of anything at all going on in something's head

robust laurel
jagged hull
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same with the need for sustenance

robust laurel
jagged hull
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well its good that its not the only sign of life i pointed out

robust laurel
#

What's next?

jagged hull
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the need for sustenance is also important, as zombies (in accordance with "zombie rules") dont seek out food or drink. radiation is also a valid concern for anything that we see as alive, apart from a few very small creatures such as certain bugs or bacteria (afaik), but the zombies in the games are happy to sit wherever they sit, breathing in radioactive dust and absorbing radiation through their unmaintained suits.

#

theyre dead. their body isnt functioning and doesnt need to function, according to stalker lore. theyre animated by angry thoughts around them or a more powerful being

robust laurel
#

Look, I’m not going to continue this discussion with someone who is using flawed logic like “if it wants to die, it must be dead.” There’s absolutely no indication in the game that they’re dead. Just because the process is irreversible, how does that prove they’re dead? Is a paralyzed person dead? Is someone in a coma dead?

Please, stop spreading this nonsense — I’m honestly tired of reading these absurd claims from someone who clearly hasn’t thought through what they’re saying. Just apply some basic logic. I’m not going to keep discussing a made-up version of the story.

robust laurel
jagged hull
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im pointing at things in the game that exist and your response is to ignore them and make up a new subclass of zombies that magically fits your theory

#

yet again theres nothing in the games that points towards "free zombies" existing, unless you are fine with some random zombies in a single cutscene being the only case of this

robust laurel
jagged hull
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ok where?

robust laurel
#

Because psi affliction isn’t an infection, and they definitely don’t operate by the rules of the undead.

jagged hull
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okay

#

anyways good talk. i see that you mean to tell me that everyone who doesnt follow your exact views has not played the game, because how could someone possibly not come to the same conclusions as you

jagged hull
# jagged hull ok where?

from what i could tell its just one case of zombies being passive in cop and thats about it. better than nothing i guess

deep forum
#
  1. Zombified are probably not dead in the sense "the irreversible cessation of all biological functions", but the person is dead as far as we can tell and many biological functions stop afaict. In older games we can hear Zombified murmuring stuff which indicates that a very small hint of "human" remains. Prof. Lodochka thinks it is irreversible and describes the hope of turning them back as foolish. He thinks they should be released/killed.
  2. I absolutely don't follow the argument that they have free will. I have only rewatched the Scar ending, but imho most of what we see are illusions of a mad man. One can easily argue that they can be influenced (see Controllers and maybe Scar; but that was bugged for me so I never saw it)

Reviewing the discussion I feel like @jagged hull argued in good faith while @robust laurel derailed the discussion by using emotional comments to enforce his point. While I do think that the story can be interpreted as @robust laurel says, I feel like his stretch is much further than @jagged hull's. I think when discussing lore it is very important to make clear distinctions between what can be derived from sources, what are assumptions and what is our own headcanon.

tough wing
#

isn't the whole point of the noosphere in stalkerthat the c-conscience made out of an abstract thing a pretty concret thing "the zone" and all it is just a place where wishes come true? so if u'd like to imagine things it will proberly happen?

#

mostly in a bad way of course,... because "people"

normal drum
# jagged hull theyre not immortal theyre already dead

Death doesn't exist in the Stalker universe because existence of the Noosphere changes the rules of the nature, it's not the same as in our world. Humans (their nervous system) have a constant connection to the Noosphere which even without the Zone means that everything about them stays untouched there regardless of what happens to the person in the physical world. Usually, that connection severs when they die.

With the Zone in the equation, physical death becomes reversible. As people die there, their consciousness goes to their Subtle World image. Their exchange of information with the Noosphere and the Subtle World stops with their death unless they're zombified when it doesn't stop. There are a few things that prove it:

  • Some zombies can talk about the beauty of the Shining Zone as they are there right now. Scar at the sawmill says about it, too
  • Faust can send Skif's consciousness to the Subtle World, but without killing him in the physical world, and return it back
  • Controllers can reanimate "dead" people (as they have some of their nervous system remaining)
  • The whole Spark ending
#

The first moment says that consciousnesses of zombified people, just like of dead people, exist in the Subtle World. The second one says that it's possible to send consciousnesses from the physical world to the Subtle World without severing the connection between the nervous system and the Noosphere, e.g. by a controller. The third one says that the connection between the nervous system and the Noosphere can be reinstated. The Spark ending reinforces the previous arguments.

With that said, it's evident to say that the zombified are alive but don't have a "soul", a consciousness at the moment, only receiving echos from the Subtle World. Either because of a controller, or a psi-emitter, or an anomalous psi-field, a consciousness departs to its Subtle Matter image. One of the proofs there is no just a "copy of a mind" there is that Skif is unconscious during his trip to the Subtle World.

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The fact that the connection to the Subtle World does allow the zombified to have constant physical regeneration, was already explained yesterday so I won't repeat it much. The zombified do not need nutrients from their common sources but receive them from the Zone in a similar way artifacts remain active there. The evidence that they do have regeneration was already presented but I'll summarise it:

  • No matter how much you hurt their body, they will stand on their feet again
  • Unless you hit their brain, delivering a critical hit to their nervous system and consequently their connection with the Noosphere
  • The zombified do not rot, it was never seen in any of the Stalker games
  • The bodies of scientists in X5 and the bodies of stalkers in the Neurolaboratory remained in a perfect condition after many years of lying there.
    The other examples of regeneration are existence of regenerators and that the "Granite" members woke up perfectly fine after years of coma, too.

I didn't understand why you both were talking about the free will of the zombified. As their physical bodies are basically empty shells (while the consciousness lives in the Subtle World, I'll recall), they, of course, can be controlled by things like controllers or Scar. Psi can work like instructions, and the zombified who don't have psi-resistance will be active and try to remain in the range of a psi-field, that's why they do not roam around the Zone but concentrate around psi-fields.

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Returning to the point where the death in the Stalker universe is reversible. We've discovered that the consciousnesses can be sent both to the Subtle World and back to the physical world, and that the zombified cannot die unless their nervous system is annihilated by an outer force (that's why the Spark ending is absolute, people won't just die from old age, diseases, wounds etc.). That means that the zombified can be turned back to "normal" if their consciousness returns to the physical world which is obviously possible if you have the full control over the Noosphere and is proved to be done by lesser forces. The lack of a physical body could potentially be solved by creating an artificial body and transferring all the information. in there (it is possible because we know things like one person's memories can be transferred to a different person. Until there's at least one place for a consciousness to exist (physical world or the Subtle World), death is not possible. Only things like destruction of Earth by the Sun may disrupt this but, by that time, scientists will definitely find a solution to, for example, to migrate the Noosphere and so on.

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(Yes, I'd been writing it for 2 and a half hours)

robust laurel
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That’s what I was too lazy to write myself. Glad someone else wasn’t too lazy to spell it out.

Of course, you can always say “it’s just a copy in the Noosphere,” meaning that the real “person” has died — and that’s exactly the theme of the game: does immortality in the Noosphere truly exist, or is it just a copy? Both interpretations are valid at the same time, since the game deliberately leaves it ambiguous. That’s the essence of digital immortality.

However, when someone says “it’s only a copy in the Noosphere,” I can always reply: why is that even a problem for us? Our question was, are the immortals zombified? Whether it’s just a copy or some kind of “soul” (a consciousness separate from the body, which is also possible in the Stalker universe) is an entirely different issue.

Besides, even if we don’t believe in this “soul,” that only means that as long as the host’s brain remains alive, we can always restore their memories — their whole personality — from the Noosphere. So in both interpretations, it’s a reversible process, as long as the body lives, regardless of your perspective. And in both cases, it’s still a form of immortality within the Noosphere, whichever way you look at it.

robust laurel
tough wing
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u guys are scar pilledsmile_scar

robust laurel
deep forum
# normal drum Death doesn't exist in the Stalker universe because existence of the Noosphere c...

Death doesn't exist in the Stalker universe because existence of the Noosphere changes the rules of the nature, it's not the same as in our world.
This is only true if we fully accept Scar Subtle Matter; which I don't.

physical death becomes reversible
I don't think we see evidence for that.

As people die there, their consciousness goes to their Subtle World image.
I agree that this happens at least to some extend (e.g. Topol, Strider)

Their exchange of information with the Noosphere and the Subtle World stops with their death unless they're zombified when it doesn't stop
While I agree that information exchange happens till death, I disagree that it continues when zombified.

Some zombies can talk about the beauty of the Shining Zone as they are there right now. Scar at the sawmill says about it, too
I don't trust Scar. I can't remember Zombies talking about the shining zone.

Faust can send Skif's consciousness to the Subtle World, but without killing him in the physical world, and return it back
I don't think that Faust showed Skif the subtle world. Faust showed Skif psy energy (maybe one could say the connection to the noosphere, but that is interpretation already).

Controllers can reanimate "dead" people (as they have some of their nervous system remaining)
This doesn't prove that death is reversible in the sense that the person is brought back, but yes.

The whole Spark ending
... with the interpretation that it shows that Scar was right which I don't think it does. I think it shows a mad man.

The fact that the connection to the Subtle World does allow the zombified to have constant physical regeneration, was already explained yesterday so I won't repeat it much.
I still think that this is a game limitation. We have no in-world lines that states "Oh, zombies regenerate!"

their physical bodies are basically empty shells[; they can be controlled]
I agree.

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We've discovered that the consciousnesses can be sent both to the Subtle World and back to the physical world
I agree with the limitation that we have never seen a fully working "back to the physical world" example. However, in general it has been done.

the zombified cannot die unless their nervous system is annihilated by an outer force
I don't think this is set. We also never saw a Stalker die without outer force and still we don't think they are immortal.

That means that the zombified can be turned back to "normal" if their consciousness returns to the physical world
I disagree. We have no prove that Zombified Stalker brains are not scrambled beyond repair. It might be the case that they are no longer capable of holding a personality. The only case we have of Subtle-World -> physical world consciousness is scar and despite him being level 5, he still got mad.

death is not possible [as long as physical or subtle matter 'I' exists
Now you are talking about the person again and I don't think that we have enough proof to believe that the subtle matter copy is the real 'I'.

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Again: I think Scar is mad and that his ending doesn't show us much that makes me believe in Subtle Matter. (Head Canon:) C-Con believed in subtle matter and sent him to basically bring them back, but it didn't work.
See: I am really surprised that no one mentiones that we see no change in C-Con in the Spark ending. Assuming that Scar is an agent and that C-Con wanted him to do all that, don't you think this should have helped them in some way visible in the ending? Especially given that this will probably not be continued

Looking at Richter's subtle matter version and how he behaves makes the hollow existence look like horror to me.

I think subtle matter is just like a trained ML model and after training the weights are frozen. Yes, it captures you, but it will not evolve from that. See ChatGPT that doesn't mean that it can't "learn" in a chat session if it gets all the context as input.

robust laurel
proven wolf
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The best part of the story, is when you install a mod that removes it.

FWIW, once zombiefied, there is no going back, your brain is fried, and all this subtle matter is just slop written by writers who never really understood the source material and referred to much to the Wikia, which has a lot mistakes in it.

Once a zombie, always a zombie.

normal drum
# deep forum > Death doesn't exist in the Stalker universe because existence of the Noosphere...

I don't trust Scar.
Well, to analyse the lore, you kinda have to. I trust Scar the same way as I trust Agatha, Strelok and Kaymanov. If we stop to trust anyone in the game, it will eventually just to "it's all Hermann's illusion"-esque conclusions.

I can't remember Zombies talking about the shining zone.
In the Ukrainian localisation, they say: "So that's what you're like... the Shining... and I thought...", but in the English one it was butchered to: "Wow… you’re so… Shining… and I imagined…"

I don't think that Faust showed Skif the subtle world. Faust showed Skif psy energy
The whole scene happens in the Subtle World (Skif didn't just teleport to the top of the Duga). The "psy energy" that Faust showed to Skif is just how Faust sees the world/the Zone.

we have never seen a fully working "back to the physical world" example
The Orbita experiment is based on sending a consciousness to the Noosphere. In the period when Skif was meeting Strider / watching Doctor's memories, he was somewhat like a dormant zombified. And he's got back to the physical world just fine.

  1. Also, if the Subtle Matter is an AI that is trained only when you contact it, how come the Representative knows things that happened way after C-Consciousness died?

  2. Who's controlling the Noosphere in the Scar ending? It cannot be Scar as he's merely a Mediator. Even Anomalous Dugout has come to the conclusion that the Subtle Matter has to be real (but I don't really know, for how long he has been studying this topic).

robust laurel
# deep forum > Death doesn't exist in the Stalker universe because existence of the Noosphere...

The question of Subtle Matter in the game is a matter of lore analysis, not of your belief. You cannot build a lore analysis and dismiss one side simply based on what you believe or don’t believe in. That’s no longer analysis — that’s interpretation.
Therefore, most of your conclusions are based exactly on this claim: “I don’t believe it, therefore it’s not true.”
That’s not how analysis should work.

"This is only true if we fully accept Scar Subtle Matter; which I don't."

No — I explained above why it works in both scenarios (or here #s2-lore-discussions message)
If your only concern is that it’s a copy, then answer the question: “What is the Self?” because that’s the question of digital immortality.
Even if you became zombified, but then your memories were uploaded back into your brain, you would regain consciousness.
There are technologies for memory transfer in the game.

"I don't think that Faust showed Skif the subtle world. Faust showed Skif psy energy (maybe one could say the connection to the noosphere, but that is interpretation already)."

That’s literally a belief-based statement — “I don’t believe” — when Faust directly said that it was the Subtle World.
If you believe that’s not true, then you need to prove it. That would be a valid argument.

"I still think that this is a game limitation. We have no in-world lines that states 'Oh, zombies regenerate!'"

Yet another phrase based entirely on belief.
We have a fact: “A zombie stands up again after taking multiple bullets to the body.”
That’s direct evidence of regeneration.
This happens even without controller interference.
You just want to deny an objective fact with “I don’t believe it.”

"their physical bodies are basically empty shells[; they can be controlled"

Only zombified individuals rise again without external control, by themselves.

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As for most other questions — I think @normal drum will answer them — but you haven’t provided any in-game argument.
All your arguments are in the style of “I haven’t seen it, therefore it doesn’t exist.”
Maybe first you should ask: “What evidence do you have for this?” instead of immediately denying it as if it doesn’t exist.

I’ve noticed this pattern with you more than once — you first deny, and then when you’re shown direct proof from the game, you go: “Heh, okay, maybe I can agree.”
So why waste time?
Just ask for the evidence right away — or provide your own direct in-game proof to support your point of view.
Otherwise, it’s just pouring from empty into void — talking about nothing.

robust laurel
# proven wolf The best part of the story, is when you install a mod that removes it. FWIW, on...

This works only if we have no ability to restore memories or the personality itself.
Even if we assume that “Subtle Matter” doesn’t exist (which by definition essentially means the soul, just described in other terms), the technologies in the Stalker world still allow memory restoration, because we know that memory transfer technology exists in the game.
Therefore, it’s possible to reconstruct an entire personality.

Now look at the dichotomy here:

Either — we don’t believe in Subtle Matter (the soul, consciousness separate from the brain, etc. — call it whatever you like).
In that case, a person is simply their brain.
So, if there’s a technology capable of re-uploading all memories back into the brain, then the person is restored.
Death might have occurred, yes — but it would be similar to clinical death.
(And there’s no evidence that the brain or cells of a zombified person actually decay, considering their regeneration.)

Or — we do believe in it, and then it’s even simpler.
I don’t think that even needs explanation.

And let me say this right away: if you or anyone else claims that “Uploaded memories would just be a copy of the memories, and the real person is dead,”
then you’ve just admitted that you believe in consciousness — lol (the soul, consciousness separate from the brain, etc. — call it whatever you like).
Because tell me, where exactly is the line where we separate consciousness from the brain?
Spoiler: there is none.
Either we believe that consciousness exists as something separate from the brain, or we don’t.
There’s no alternative — and in both scenarios, immortality works.

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In short, the dichotomy is simple:
If we don’t believe in Subtle Matter (the soul or consciousness separate from the brain), then a person is just their brain and memories — and restoring those means restoring the person.
If we do believe in Subtle Matter, then immortality is even easier to explain.
Either way — immortality works in both scenarios.

deep forum
# normal drum > I don't trust Scar. Well, to analyse the lore, you kinda have to. I trust Scar...

Well, to analyse the lore, you kinda have to [trust Scar].
I disagree. He is certified mad. We only have to trust that he believes it and accept that it might be true.

In the Ukrainian localisation, they say [it].
Interesting. However, they mostly talk about their past: https://www.reddit.com/r/stalker/comments/1jepw00/zombie_speech/ in English. Good point that at least one of their lines is explicit though.

The whole scene happens in the Subtle World
I am not so sure. It could also be in no world and just a controller thing

The Orbita experiment is based on sending a consciousness to the Noosphere.
Is that so? I can't remember it being said so explicitly. For me it was just a temporary connection. Similar to the C-Con but an earlier state. Unclear if a full upload happens.

  1. Also, if the Subtle Matter is an AI that is trained only when you contact it, how come the Representative knows things that happened way after C-Consciousness died?
    That is part of the passed context; and AI is taking figuratively. To make it explicit though I might lose some of my initial intention: I think that subtle versions are not able to derivate drastically from their former self regardless of input, but that is only head canon. I also think that most don't have a lot of input but the C-Con. The others appear to live in small worlds (similar to the Oasis) given Scar's ending.
  1. Who's controlling the Noosphere in the Scar ending?
    The subtle matter version of C-Con; a shadow of the former self.
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@robust laurel no, I don't need to proof something if I believe it. I don't think it can be proven given the current lore and the arguments didn't change my mind.
To showcase one example:

I don't believe that Faust showed Skif the subtle world.
is my statement in response to the statement:
I do believe that Faust showed Skif the subtle world.
Neither has a direct lore claim as there was no "Faust turned around and said: Hey Skif! This is the subtle world, brother!" and no "Doctor looked at Skif and said: Oh boy! Faust took you on a ride to the subtle world! How lucky you are!" Even then we could debate whether they could have lied, but let's omit that. In general any information not coming from Scar (given that he is an agent programmed to believe and to bring the Shining) or Spark will be accepted by me for now.

robust laurel
# deep forum <@306054114855485461> no, I don't need to proof something if I believe it. I don...

Then you’re not analyzing the story — you’re simply “believing”, just in the other side of the conflict.
That’s not analysis, that’s faith, and it’s not constructive in a discussion.
By that same logic, I could just say:
“Don’t believe anything said in the story; the entire plot is just Herman’s illusion, and you’re wrong if you disagree.”
That’s exactly what your position looks like when you say “I don’t believe.”
Prove that something is a lie first — that’s how lore analysis actually works.
You can feel whatever you want, but if you present those feelings as analysis, they need to be supported by in-game evidence.

deep forum
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I never said you are wrong if you disagree. I only say don't believe anything/everything that Scar says

robust laurel
deep forum
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good point. I just looked it up and I had completely forgotten about that. That changes my mind quite a bit. Let me rewatch it to get my mind up to speed.

robust laurel
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You're just mocking and trolling me.
Now I get it.

robust laurel
deep forum
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If this isn’t trolling on your part, then it’s literally exactly what I’m talking about. You first make claims, accuse, and then go, “Hmm, maybe I was wrong.”
I apologize for being blunt but this is a very odd opinion. First, I never accused. Second, changing your mind when you notice a mistake is the best behavior one can have when noticing a mistake. Would you prefer if I keep arguing despite that?

robust laurel
# deep forum > If this isn’t trolling on your part, then it’s literally exactly what I’m talk...

Change is a good thing — it’s great when someone is able to change their mind.
I’ve done that myself many times. I’ve been analyzing the lore actively since the game’s release, even made a video on the topic, and there were plenty of times when I changed my perspective. There are things I didn’t explain perfectly in that video, and today I would approach them differently because my understanding has evolved.
My point is: why not ask for evidence first, instead of starting from denial right away?
That’s all I’m trying to say.

deep forum
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Having rewatched the sequence:

  1. I accept that Faust knows about the Subtle World and that the scene plays in it. I am undecided whether the subtle matter (i.e. perfect afterlife via noosphere) directly follows from that.
  2. I am a bit confused that the moment where Faust shows the psy energy plays out in the subtle world. It begs the question whether we see the psy energy of the subtle world or how Faust sees it in the real world (my preferred interpretation), but that is not too relevant for the topic.
robust laurel
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What I often see from you is the attitude of “I think that’s not true,” instead of asking, “Why do you think it is?”

deep forum
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Ah, this is a question of clarity. The way how I have learned to argue is to first position yourself to the proposition and then bring your own argument. By directly connecting with the previous statement, the clear structure makes it easier to follow. You will see that many times I don't say "that is wrong" but I say "I don't think we see evidence for that." and you are happily invited to show me that I am wrong by bringing up evidence.

I see that a question based response "You say X. Can you bring up your evidence for X?" can look more polite. However, the information value is the same, I think.

robust laurel
# deep forum Ah, this is a question of clarity. The way how I have learned to argue is to fir...

Denial often comes across as an attack on the other person’s position.
When someone simply says “I don’t believe that” and stops there, without offering a counter-argument, it doesn’t feel like an invitation to discussion — it feels more like “You’re talking nonsense,” which isn’t constructive.
It’s always better to ask for evidence or provide your own as a counter-argument.
But I understand your point — I’ll keep it in mind and try not to take “I don’t believe” as an attack.

granite barn
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I just thought… stalkers version of zombies is probably one of the more accurate possible ways of getting a zombie …no ? For us it’s just a person being brainfried until having nothing but a walking corpse .. barely any speech no fast movement just .. but the game it’s psy soo it’s mind control but I feel it’s one of my favourite concepts of using a mind control ability to frying a persons mind /bend their will … definitely my favourite humanoid mutant

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I ain’t proper deep in lore etc just I love the universe GSC and modders etc have made coming from someone who played metro and fallout before stalker and so far stalker has flipped the table and toke the crown and I haven’t even played the originals …

normal drum
# deep forum > Well, to analyse the lore, you kinda have to [trust Scar]. I disagree. He is c...

He is certified mad.
The game provides phenomena, things that cannot be understood at the first glance or without making a connection to other events. And Scar provides an answer which explains those phenomena. I don't care about his mental state, I'm looking at his point of view and connect the dots around it and all seems plausible. No one else in the game tries to give their own answer or at least disprove Scar's vision with some valid points.

However, they mostly talk about their past
Do they?

  • (1) "I can’t see… who’s there… can’t see… it’s so dark…"
  • (2) "Wrong… it’s all wrong… let me go… Mommy…"
  • (3) "Of course I’ll be back… Just one more time, and then I’ll be back… I promise…"
  • (4) "Almost there… just a little bit more, and then I’m out…"
  • (5) "It hurts… it hurts so bad… make it stop… please…"
  • (6) "Good… it’s all good now… so quiet…"
  • (7) "When I get back, everything's gonna be all right… We’d get our daughter the medicine she needs… It’s gonna be all right…"
  • (8) "It’s so cold… why is it always so cold…"
  • (9) "Don’t worry… we’ll make it… we’ve always made it…"
  • (10) "I can hear them… so many of them… make them stop…"
  • (11) "That’s it… I found you… found you…"
  • (12) "You promised… you promised me… all alone… why…"
  • (13) "Wow… you’re so… Shining… and I imagined…"
  • (14) "So many of them… so many… where are you all coming from…"
  • (15) "I see… I see you… radiant… so radiant…"

For me, it's clear that each quote shows one aspect of the interaction with the Subtle Matter. They either:

  1. are in the Subtle World (which is not necessarily a heaven for everyone, people can suffer there, too, remember how Skif gets attacked in the Dead Valley in the Ward ending) (also a reminder that some Subtle Matter images became isolated from each other after the second Caribbean experiment)
    1.1) 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 10 - suffering
    1.2) 6, 11, 13, 15 - relief
  2. are meeting with dead people - 12, 14
  3. are watching memories - 7, 9
shrewd igloo
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with that of how faust see the zone, soooooooooooooooooooooo he really can see

normal drum
proven wolf
# robust laurel This works only if we have no ability to restore memories or the personality its...

Subtle matter has nothing to do with the soul.

And the rest of idea of subtle matter is garbage. It's a horrible addition to the game that to me undermines the whole of the series. It undermines the end of SoC when Strelok kills C-con as they slept in their sarcophagus. If it was all about the subconscious, then why did the C-Con need to be kept alive by the machines? They wouldn't need it, they would upload their consciousness and not require the body at all and still continue to control monolith to this day and noontide would never had existed.

robust laurel
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And everything below is again about "I don’t believe it, so it’s not true," which has absolutely nothing to do with analyzing the plot.

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Also, no one knows whether it exists or not. The game presents this as a question through the words of various characters. It is deliberately left unresolved. Moreover, the Representative, at the time of SoC, did not know whether it existed. Please rewatch the dialogues in the game, because it seems like you haven’t played it.

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If this is just a personal opinion like "I don’t believe it, so it’s not true," that’s fine—I don’t mind personal opinions—but if we are analyzing the game’s lore, it’s not constructive. If you assert something, provide evidence. But to be clear: the game itself does not answer the question of whether Subtle Matter exists or not.

proven wolf
robust laurel
# proven wolf I know exactly what subtle matter is, and it's garbage story writing. If it doe...

I’ve already answered about SoC. Why are you just ignoring that? As for the definition the Representative gives, please rewatch it. It’s literally the same as the soul, just in different words. If you knew this definition, you wouldn’t be writing this nonsense. I’ll say it again: if you simply don’t believe in its existence, that’s your right, but your belief does not affect the truth. This is just an interpretation of the events, nothing more.

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Any definition of consciousness outside the brain will, one way or another, be considered the soul or something similar. Consciousness outside the brain does not exist; otherwise, it is simply the soul or something else. You can choose any definition you like—I don’t mind what word you use.

proven wolf
# robust laurel Any definition of consciousness outside the brain will, one way or another, be c...

It doesn't mean that in any capacity. Consciousness is born out of the biological functions of the brain, it requires a physical thing in order for it to happen, consciousness is not something you can remove and has naff all to do with the soul. Hence why C-con required complex machinery in order to interact with the Noosphere, and once Strelok decided a few bullets to the head was a good idea, it was game over for them.

The introduction of Subtle Matter, changes what the Noosphere was about. As it undermines the need of C-con needing machines, as once uploaded or copied (the soul as you put it) the consciousness the physical body is not required, and C-con would have instantly known about it. Was it you suggested when stalkers turn to zombies their consciousness is in the shining zone in subtle matter and you said that Scar proved that you can maintain self awareness or something akin to that. If that is the case then how did C-con lose control over monolith, seeing as they used PSI fields to exert control.

It's a silly concept that should never have been added to the game.

C-con should have remained dead, the zone should have been wild and chaotic, seeing as it was C-con that was holding back Noosphere spilling through the hole they ripped open. Monolith should never had returned, Noontide should have a far more important story

robust laurel
# proven wolf It doesn't mean that in any capacity. Consciousness is born out of the biologic...

I’ll say it again: in the game, there simultaneously exist two “truths”—that Subtle Matter exists and that it doesn’t. The story can be interpreted through either lens, and it still works. If you want to discuss the plot from the perspective of Subtle Matter’s existence, I can answer questions. But a dialogue about “how bad it is that this was added”—I don’t really understand why you’re in the Stalker 2 lore chat just to express dissatisfaction. The purpose of this chat is to analyze and discuss the existing plot; complaints won’t change much.

We can also discuss the story from the perspective of non-existence. In both cases, the story still works. Please read my answers—or those of others—carefully, because your questions may have already been addressed. I don’t want to spend two and a half hours explaining the same thing that has already been said. Just ask a specific question, and I’ll answer it.

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And if you believe in the soul in the traditional religious sense, it will be even harder to discuss the game’s plot with you, because the game literally provides a definition of Subtle Matter—and yes, it is essentially a scientifically grounded soul through the existence of the Noosphere.

proven wolf
robust laurel
# proven wolf The whole idea of the soul is religious BS.

But we weren’t discussing the soul in the religious sense. I used it simply as an example to quickly explain what Subtle Matter means according to the Representative’s definition (and that’s the only definition given in the game).

proven wolf
robust laurel
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I’ve been studying the lore since the game’s release and can confidently say that there are far fewer issues with Subtle Matter than it might seem—but explaining it in detail takes time. Again, if you have specific questions, I can answer them. However, a reminder: the story can also be interpreted from the perspective of its absence.

full crown
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how tf agatha turn into a hologram then into a actul human

urban citrus
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heyo guys, quick question, why are there tanks in the zone?

what's the purpose of bringing heavy armour into a place riddled with metal bending anomalies?

this question came to my mind right after starting S2 as you encounter a broken down T-72/80 when encountering your first electric anomaly

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the one I'm referring to looks pretty modern too, it's probably a T80 as I mentioned because I noticed it having rubber flaps around it's turret

reef phoenix
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also just tanks are useful if you can get around anomalies in general. like it is still a TANK

normal drum
normal drum
strong flume
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It's like how the military thought outfitting a bunch of anomaly detection equipment and stuff onto helicopters was a good idea...until it wasn't and all the helicopters crashed

radiant harness
fathom veldt
robust laurel
# fathom veldt it is not "truths" it is awareness, not everyone is aware of it for starters 🙂 ...

In the game, the definition is presented quite clearly — you’d have to be sitting there with a beer in hand and your eyes and ears closed not to understand it properly or to miss it.

Now, if you want to say, “I simply don’t believe the Representative,” that’s a completely different matter — then we can talk about evidence and arguments.

As for the idea that the story can be interpreted in multiple ways, that becomes clear once you play through or at least watch the other endings. If you’ve only completed one ending and then go into a story or lore discussion trying to prove your point — without even knowing about the others — that’s, at the very least, unconstructive and not to be taken seriously. That’s simply not how you analyze a game.

fathom veldt
robust laurel
# fathom veldt or you have to be delusional fanatic to see whats not there 😄

I mentioned this in the Ukrainian-language chat, but I’d like to say it here as well. It’s true that the game’s story can be difficult to understand and that its presentation could have been clearer. However, I see this not as a flaw, but as a strength. Stalker is all about exploration — both in gameplay and in its deeper meaning. The fact that you need to explore every dialogue and find every note to fully grasp the story is part of what makes it special.

I’ve said many times that games are not movies — their way of telling a story can and should be different. You may not enjoy that approach, and that’s perfectly fine, but in that case, it’s better not to play games that feel too confusing or demanding for you.

#

I’ve been studying the lore of Stalker 2 since the day it was released and have spent hundreds of hours on it. So, if you want to suggest that I’m “misunderstanding” something, please provide clear arguments and evidence to support your point — otherwise, it just sounds like empty words.

fathom veldt
#

Lore expert detected ego level critical. I didn’t realize reading notes slowly counted as studying the lore. Maybe chill a bit with all that "I have been studying" , nobody really cares. It’s almost impressive how condescending a fan can be.

robust laurel
#

Dude, if you don’t care about this, then what are you even doing here in the chat? You wanna make it personal, or are you actually gonna give an argument? Because so far, this is like the third message from you full of empty talk and nothing more, lol

fathom veldt
robust laurel
#

So, no arguments then — just what I expected from a windbag

#

Very smart of you to join a “lore and story” chat just to tell people they’re wrong for spending their time exploring the lore and story. Overintellect detected.

normal drum
proven wolf
# normal drum He may be a bit rude to certain people (for valid reasons), but I can understand...

It doesn't matter how well you think you know something, if you chose to ignore issues.

Lore is meaningless unless it remains consistent. It doesn't.

I had someone block me, because I pointed out that one of the reasons why LoTR is so loved, is because it keeps it's lore consistent. But according to them, I shouldn't have used it, because, LotR is story and S2 is game. Despite the fact that being different mediums, change rules of story telling and the lore should always remain consistent. If you change it, then your are going to ruin it.

S2 broke it's own lore, and the introduction of Subtle Matter did just that.

robust laurel
#

So, in other words, lore should never evolve? Everything new is automatically bad, and "things were better in the old days"?

We keep hearing about these so-called "issues", yet when someone asks for clear examples or arguments, all we get is more vague complaints that never go anywhere.

Why even join a discussion about the Stalker 2 story if the only thing you want to do is say you dislike any changes? What exactly is inconsistent here? None of the new elements contradict the old lore — including Subtle Matter. In fact, the original trilogy’s lore contradicted itself multiple times, and nobody seemed to mind back then.

It really feels like some people don’t actually understand the lore they’re defending. The new material doesn’t “break” anything — it actually organizes and fixes the mess that was already there. But instead of recognizing that, it’s easier to just complain and throw around the word “problem” without explaining what the problem even is.

robust laurel
#

Of course, the best way to have a “constructive discussion” is to label everyone who asks for arguments or clarity as people who are “ignoring the issues.” Very productive approach indeed.

jagged hull
robust laurel
jagged hull
#

its a joke

robust laurel
#

And what exactly is the joke?

jagged hull
#

thats up to you to figure out

robust laurel
#

So there won’t be an answer, then?

midnight vault
#

Ok there's something that I can make out: who tortured and killed Gray?
Or let say: who made that mess in the Red Forest? Was that Strider alone or Strelok?

normal drum
ornate ventureBOT
#
redrickshuhart_stalker has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

midnight vault
#

Ok im confused , when Skiff entered the pod in Orbital why did he see Strider? What truth there is to learn?
What does all of Strider told(or rather,showed) us meant?
How is that important to the plot?

robust laurel
# midnight vault Ok im confused , when Skiff entered the pod in Orbital why did he see Strider? W...

This raises the question of whether Subtle Matter truly exists — roughly speaking, a kind of “scientifically grounded soul,” as defined by the Representative back in Malachite, if you recall — or whether it was merely a copy within the Noosphere, a sort of phantom (like in the case of a pseudodog) that only carries the memories of a real person, yet is, in a sense, alive as well.
The answer to this question is something you must decide for yourself — it remains an open one.

midnight vault
#

What I don't understand here is why Strider? Because Skiff was thinking about him a few missions ago?

robust laurel
robust laurel
normal drum
# midnight vault What I don't understand here is why Strider? Because Skiff was thinking about hi...

Yes, I'll just take the text from a comment:
"The cartridge from the Signature station has an ability for an overall connection to the Noosphere, that's why it both can help to create a projection (not to confuse with an illusion) of the Oasis and establish a connection with an image from the Subtle World. In the first case, the instructions were given inside the device of how to build a projection using the visual images from the Noosphere, and the cartridge was a key to access them. In the second case it allows for user in the pod to see whoever they want, and Skif's desire was to meet Strider as he was feeling guilt about what happened in the SIRCAA and then in Doctor's house."

midnight vault
#

Thank guys

#

Ok what was that voice in the radio we heard under Orbital station though?
When I try to restore the power to the vault(the one you need 4 digit passcode to open), sounds like someone groaning, I don't remember the exact dialogue though.
Whose was that though?

Why does it look like someone just got out of the Orbital station underground before us?
And how did a Ward Exoskeleton end up there?

normal drum
ornate ventureBOT
#
patnor has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

proven wolf
smoky hornet
#

You really can’t go two sentences without insulting someone can you smile_degtyarev

robust laurel
#

What a pathetic statement.

#

I’ve been asking for several messages in a row to name at least one argument in support of your position, but so far all I see are empty words.

#

You keep talking about “broken lore,” but you still haven’t named a single example.
Saying that “Subtle Matter broke the lore” is an absurd claim without any concrete evidence of where or how that supposedly happened.
Until you can actually point to something specific, it’s just empty whining.

smoky hornet
#

You won’t get one, the guy tends to just fling insults and variants of the word moron at people he thinks are wrong

robust laurel
proven wolf
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Look, you’ve been sending message after message without actually giving any specifics.
At this point, it’s just empty words and complaints — nothing concrete at all.

proven wolf
#

yes or no.

robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

How can I politely call someone “not very smart” without getting banned on the server?

normal drum
proven wolf
robust laurel
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Do you even understand a simple idea — that sometimes things in works of fiction are intentionally left open?
Like in the movie Inception, where at the end we don’t know if it was a dream or not.
There are elements in stories that are meant to be left to the player’s or viewer’s interpretation.
Or is that concept too complicated for you?

proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Okay, now I see that you really are “not very smart”

normal drum
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
tough wing
#

wtf it's a game boiis, nobody cares eventually. subtle matter is a concept in a game, no need getting protective about does it exist or not

robust laurel
proven wolf
tough wing
#

i have a blast playing s2 und it's story and it is a cool thing talking about concepts and story but u guys just are way to angry about this

proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Sitting in a story chat without knowing anything about the game’s lore, and at the same time, when asked to give a single concrete argument about what exactly and how something is broken, the person keeps repeating their mantra and blindly fails to see that this is an open question — you really have to be something else to do that.

tough wing
proven wolf
tough wing
#

today, because it cooled down but u felt the need to fire it again

proven wolf
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
# proven wolf Is it not the case that C-con still exist in Subtle Matter (which is part of/mak...

This raises the question of whether Subtle Matter truly exists — roughly speaking, a kind of “scientifically grounded soul,” as defined by the Representative back in Malachite, if you recall — or whether it was merely a copy within the Noosphere, a sort of phantom (like in the case of a pseudodog) that only carries the memories of a real person, yet is, in a sense, alive as well.
The answer to this question is something you must decide for yourself — it remains an open one.

proven wolf
# robust laurel This raises the question of whether Subtle Matter truly exists — roughly speakin...

No nit is not something I need to decide for myself.

Coz the problem is, it goes all the way back to the killing of of C-con at the end SoC.

Seeing as the brainwashing of Monolith ended when C-con died, and monolith, with memories wiped, started to get their freedoms back.

If C-con still existed in the Noosphere, then monolith would have continued, as C-con would have had the capacity to maintain control over them. Thus Noontide would never had existed.

As the only way C-Con could control Monolith was from the Noosphere...

robust laurel
#

God, why am I even wasting my time on this ignorance?

#

Play the game and stop asking stupid questions.

proven wolf
normal drum
robust laurel
tough wing
#

Anyways so i give my concept about Sublte Matter. since in the game is alot talk about mind manipulation and frequencies which fry your brain and turn u into mindless vassels but actual u are in the Shining Zone and stuff and all talk about the Project Stalker, where they literally reprogramm people to sleeper agents for the c-con.

What is when subtle matter is some kind of frequency which triggers an itch in your brain, so it shuts your body off and it is all a world in your brain, like a delusion. Question is, is it a real connection to some Hivemind or is it just made up all by your own Perception u have of the world?

normal drum
proven wolf
robust laurel
robust laurel
proven wolf
tough wing
#

i think the C-Con died and everthing which happens in S2 is just some fail safe, some kind of Algorythm. like "dead gods"

proven wolf
normal drum
robust laurel
#

You can’t control psi without a brain. It’s clearly stated in the lore.

#

The question of Subtle Matter is just a basic philosophical question: “Does consciousness exist outside the brain?” They simply took this concept and used it for the game. You choose the answer yourself.

robust laurel
tough wing
#

i think it is more like a ghost which haunts the zone

robust laurel
tough wing
#

i also believe that strider is all made up in skifs mind when u meet him in the "after life"

#

man i just making up stuff to make some kind of sense out of the stuff i experienced in the game. based on other scifi flicks like matrix and ghost in the shell

robust laurel
normal drum
# proven wolf No, they used PSI fields mainly, IIRC, emmiters where something introduced in S2

C-Consciousness didn't have the full control of the Noosphere even while being alive. That means, no way to brainwash people (if they could, they wouldn't have needed things like Brain Scorcher, they would've just brainwash everyone from any distance easily). That's why they used machines and devices to do it. Those technologies were relatively primitive - Monolithians couldn't be controlled individually but collectively, and they needed to have a literal God to believe in to remain obedient (I'll repeat, C-Consciousness wouldn't have needed that if they could just manipulate the Noosphere). The Monolith program has been turned off together with the X-Network and brought back when the X-Network was turned on again in HoC.

robust laurel
#

What I find particularly strange is when people try to present their nonsense in the lore chat.

proven wolf
# normal drum C-Consciousness didn't have the full control of the Noosphere even while being a...

No, Monolith didn't need a God to believe... Their belief in a god, was brainwashed into them, to the sell the lie of the Wish Granter so it could be used as trap targeting stalker that got too close to the centre of the zone.

So when STALKERS overheard Monolith troops, mumbling on about the monolith, aka the Wish Granter, it reinforced the myth of the Wish Granter, resulting in STALKERS hunting for the myth, only for it to be a trap set by C-Con. Thus, this was the way that C-con where allowed to go about the activities unhindered, as they want to be left alone.

It wasn't the idea of a God that made them obedient, it was the brainwashing and constant reinforcement through PSI fields.

Monolithians could be controlled individually as you hear C-con giving targets to the monolith sniper at the end Clear Sky during the assault on CCNP at the end of the game.

The only tech C-con had in SoC was the equipment to upload the consciousness to the Noosphere and the Wish Granter.

proven wolf
# robust laurel To control the psi, you need a brain — and their brain was dead.

That's the problem though.

If you need the brain to control PSI, then surely existing in the Noosphere would be impossible without one, as to store a consciousness there would require manipulating the Noosphere /PSI fields to maintain the consciousness, if not, it would eventually dissipate.

If that is the case, then speaking to the C-con rep in S2 shouldn't have been possible, surely?

robust laurel
#

How, in your opinion, is information stored in the Noosphere? Do you even understand what psi is in the game’s lore or not? Give me a definition of it, because the game provides a clear definition.

proven wolf
# robust laurel Images in the Dead Valley or the Noosphere exist independently of whether you co...

What's images got to do with anything?

We are talking about the brain being required to control PSI, correct? But we know a physical brain doesn't exist in the Noosphere, just the consciousness. If this is the case, then why is a brain required to control PSI, when it was never needed in the first place, as it was the consciousness in the Noosphere that did the controlling of/through PSI fields.

And as we saw in S2, the consciousness is still there, as you are able to talk to it and hold a conversation and it's still able to learn, as it learns about you.

So how did C-con lose control of Monolith, when a physical brain was never needed in the first place.

And if brain was really required, then as soon C-con died at Streloks hands, then their consciousness would have eventually dissipated, as no brain to manipulated the PSI/Noosphere.

robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Psi is?

proven wolf
#

Why?

robust laurel
#

Then I'll understand if you understand what you're talking about at all.

robust laurel
# proven wolf Why?

If you don't understand what a psi is, then why continue the conversation with someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about at all?

proven wolf
#

go back an answer my point

robust laurel
proven wolf
#

I cant make it any clearer

robust laurel
#

Give me a definition of what "psi" is then I will continue answering your question.

normal drum
# proven wolf No, Monolith didn't need a God to believe... Their belief in a god, was brainwa...

Their belief in a god, was brainwashed into them, to the sell the lie of the Wish Granter so it could be used as trap targeting stalker that got too close to the centre of the zone.
The legend of the Wish Granter was made up way before the Monolith faction appeared. That's literally what inspired the original Monolithians to go the centre of the Zone in 2011, right before the Superemission, the player discovers this from talks from regular stalkers.

So when STALKERS overheard Monolith troops, mumbling on about the monolith, aka the Wish Granter, it reinforced the myth of the Wish Granter
How so? If stalkers believed the Wish Granter created the Monolithians, that would've weakened the belief, not reinforced it.

It wasn't the idea of a God that made them obedient, it was the brainwashing and constant reinforcement through PSI fields.
Again, then why they were made like it? They talk and pray to the Monolith even when not observed by regular stalkers. Even when brainwashed, they still need faith to follow orders from the Monolith.

Monolithians could be controlled individually as you hear C-con giving targets to the monolith sniper at the end Clear Sky during the assault on CCNP at the end of the game.
The Monolith program helps them (we can even argue that it wasn't the voice of the Monolith but Faust's that was talking to Strider), but it doesn't control anyone directly. There is no such supercomputer that would analyse what every Monolithian sees and give everyone an individual order. They are told, for example, "protect the CNPP", then the Monolithians organise themselves how would they do it, otherwise they wouldn't need commanders on the field like Charon or Faust.

The only tech C-con had in SoC was the equipment to upload the consciousness to the Noosphere and the Wish Granter.
Even in SoC you can find antennas with praying Monolithians. CoP explored this topic and expanded the lore.

proven wolf
proven wolf
# robust laurel Give me a definition of what "psi" is then I will continue answering your questi...

Nope... Just answer these points?

What's images got to do with anything?

We are talking about the brain being required to control PSI, correct? But we know a physical brain doesn't exist in the Noosphere, just the consciousness. If this is the case, then why is a brain required to control PSI, when it was never needed in the first place, as it was the consciousness in the Noosphere that did the controlling of/through PSI fields.

And as we saw in S2, the consciousness is still there, as you are able to talk to it and hold a conversation and it's still able to learn, as it learns about you.

So how did C-con lose control of Monolith, when a physical brain was never needed in the first place.

And if brain was really required, then as soon C-con died at Streloks hands, then their consciousness would have eventually dissipated, as no brain to manipulated the PSI/Noosphere.

robust laurel
#

@sour galleon

proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Dude, you can’t answer a simple question, the definition of which is already in the game. Your questions contain a logical error because you have no idea what PSI is. You’re asking a question based on a misunderstanding of the game’s lore. I will answer your question immediately once you show me that you understand the topic you’re talking about; otherwise, please don’t waste my time. I’m not going to spend time on someone who doesn’t understand the subject they’re discussing.

proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
proven wolf
#

Nope... Just answer these points?

What's images got to do with anything?

We are talking about the brain being required to control PSI, correct? But we know a physical brain doesn't exist in the Noosphere, just the consciousness. If this is the case, then why is a brain required to control PSI, when it was never needed in the first place, as it was the consciousness in the Noosphere that did the controlling of/through PSI fields.

And as we saw in S2, the consciousness is still there, as you are able to talk to it and hold a conversation and it's still able to learn, as it learns about you.

So how did C-con lose control of Monolith, when a physical brain was never needed in the first place.

And if brain was really required, then as soon C-con died at Streloks hands, then their consciousness would have eventually dissipated, as no brain to manipulated the PSI/Noosphere.

robust laurel
#

I’ll say it again: don’t waste my time on a topic you clearly have no understanding of. Your question contains a logical error—you’re not capable of answering what PSI is because you literally don’t know the subject you’re talking about. PSI is directly related to the topic and to your question, but you don’t understand this because you lack any grasp of the subject. Your conclusions are wrong because they’re based on a misunderstanding of the topic. I’m not going to spend any more time on this. Please play the game instead of wasting my time.

proven wolf
proven wolf
# robust laurel I’ll say it again: don’t waste my time on a topic you clearly have no understand...

Stop being an arrogant snob, and answer the questions.

Just answer these points?

What's images got to do with anything?

We are talking about the brain being required to control PSI, correct? But we know a physical brain doesn't exist in the Noosphere, just the consciousness. If this is the case, then why is a brain required to control PSI, when it was never needed in the first place, as it was the consciousness in the Noosphere that did the controlling of/through PSI fields.

And as we saw in S2, the consciousness is still there, as you are able to talk to it and hold a conversation and it's still able to learn, as it learns about you.

So how did C-con lose control of Monolith, when a physical brain was never needed in the first place.

And if brain was really required, then as soon C-con died at Streloks hands, then their consciousness would have eventually dissipated, as no brain to manipulated the PSI/Noosphere.

normal drum
# proven wolf WTF did I say this "How so? If stalkers believed the Wish Granter created thee M...

Your point is illogical. You claim that the Monolithians were created because C-Consciousness wanted people to believe in the Wish Granter so they would fall for a trap, and because C-Consciousness wanted to be left alone and undiscovered. In the first case, why create an army that exactly prevents people from going to the centre of the Zone, ending up killing both Monolithians and other stalkers? In the second case, why reinforce the myth and attract even more people to the centre of the Zone? The only logical conclusion from this is that Monolithians definitely did not reinforce the myth, it wasn't needed. Therefore, there is another reason why Monolithians believe in such a God which was explained above.

#

@nocturne mural

nocturne mural
#

Wha

normal drum
proven wolf
nocturne mural
#

Can you stop this like rn

#

And no need to curse on people or something like this

robust laurel
#

@nocturne mural

proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Is that supposed to be a joke? So now you’re going to accuse me of something I didn’t do?

proven wolf
robust laurel
# proven wolf Like this?

Because maybe you shouldn’t have spammed me with a stupid question that I’ve already answered several times?

#

Yeah, man, when someone keeps spamming the same question you’ve already answered, that’s the behavior of a child or someone not very bright. I honestly don’t know how to put it more politely so as not to offend you.

proven wolf
# robust laurel Because maybe you shouldn’t have spammed me with a stupid question that I’ve alr...

No, you didn't answer my questions, you kept posting some rubbish, that didn't answer the question.

And the you refused to answer my later questions, and I couldn't give a monkeys what PSI is, because it is irrelevant to the point I was making.

All you had to do was given answer, cut out all the BS, and we could have moved on I could have asked more questions...

But no, all you wanted to do, was ask me what PSI is...

robust laurel
#

The fact that you’re having trouble understanding the answer doesn’t mean I didn’t give one. That’s entirely your problem.

proven wolf
sour galleon
#

Gentlemen, any discussions should be non-personal. If you don't understand this, you'll just get a mute

proven wolf
normal drum
proven wolf
#

Here, I will ask them again.

What's images got to do with anything?

We are talking about the brain being required to control PSI, correct? But we know a physical brain doesn't exist in the Noosphere, just the consciousness. If this is the case, then why is a brain required to control PSI, when it was never needed in the first place, as it was the consciousness in the Noosphere that did the controlling of/through PSI fields.

And as we saw in S2, the consciousness is still there, as you are able to talk to it and hold a conversation and it's still able to learn, as it learns about you.

So how did C-con lose control of Monolith, when a physical brain was never needed in the first place.

And if brain was really required, then as soon C-con died at Streloks hands, then their consciousness would have eventually dissipated, as no brain to manipulated the PSI/Noosphere.

proven wolf
sour galleon
robust laurel
#

I’ve given him the answer several times, but he just keeps going and going.

sour galleon
#

I asked... Well, ok

robust laurel
#

I said it clearly: for me to answer your question, I need to know that we both have the same understanding of what PSI is. If you don’t understand what it is, then obviously you won’t understand my answer either.

normal drum
# proven wolf Here, I will ask them again. What's images got to do with anything? We are tal...

The definition of the Noosphere: "According to our calculations, Earth is surrounded by a special informational field, the so-called Noosphere. It links all the sentient inhabitants of the planet and stores their mental images." This definition first appeared in SoC and is persistent since. When C-Consciousness died (and therefore didn't have brains to manipulate the Noosphere anymore, even according to your theory of "psi-fields"), their mental images with all information, memories etc. remained within the Noosphere.
When they reappeared in HoC, there's only two possible ways of how was it done: 1) consciousness aka the soul exists and can ascend to the Noosphere when a person dies (scenario where the Subtle Matter exists); 2) a consciousness of a person really dies with the physical body and what we've seen was just a copy of C-Consciousness' mind (scenario where the Subtle Matter doesn't exist).

robust laurel
# proven wolf Here, I will ask them again. What's images got to do with anything? We are tal...

(While I was writing this, @normal drum had already responded)

As for your specific question — here’s a detailed answer to that.

Psi is merely a means of transmitting information (something similar to a radio signal); it’s what enables the connection between the brain and the Noosphere.

The images we saw, for example, in the Dead Valley or of the Strider, are just representations. But we don’t know whether Subtle Matter actually exists — just as in real life we don’t know whether the soul or human consciousness exists separately from the brain.

Now, I’ll give you two scenarios:

If human consciousness exists only within the brain (meaning Subtle Matter doesn’t exist), then communication with the Strider or the images in the Dead Valley are merely copies.
If it does exist, then when a person dies in the world of S.T.A.L.K.E.R., it’s not the end — because human consciousness continues to exist in the form of Subtle Matter (a free consciousness separate from the body).

And to control the Noosphere, a living brain is needed to maintain the connection.

gusty lotus
#

Holy shit yall were really arguing all morning 🤣

#

Anyways. Mr lore man can provide me an explanation to the lore behind scars artifact “altered toast”. I like its description but I have little to no knowledge of what it actually is or how it came into existence. @robust laurel

robust laurel
gusty lotus
#

Damn. I guess I will never understand the origins of the magic toast

normal drum
# gusty lotus Anyways. Mr lore man can provide me an explanation to the lore behind scars arti...

It was made like any other artifact, in particular the "weird" ones. Artifacts are objects which properties were changed by the anomalous energy. Usually an object transforms fully into a "regular" artifact (you cannot tell what the original object was), but sometimes the transformation is not complete (like with the altered wheel in CoP) or is finished without altering the appearance much (like with "weird" objects). The Altered Toast was... just a toast before getting changed during an Emission.

#

Given Scar loves toasts, he may have experimented with them, leaving them in places with a concentration of anomalous energy, and eventually got this one smile_scar

ornate ventureBOT
#
notvrairhead has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

deep forum
wintry belfry
#

?

robust laurel
stray reef
midnight vault
#

Is that Fedko Maul you meet at the Chopper Field setting up people to die so he could get their loots? Should I kill him?

shrewd igloo
midnight vault
#

I think the way the game handles Subtle Matter is one of the reasons why I love the "Free the Zone" ending more than the other 3.
Skiff wants a place he calls home for him to return , so help the Ward for a home sound pointless for the long term, because that means he would just return to his boring every day life he had, if Ward doesn't decide to control him themselves.
Subtle Matter sound promises on paper but it's too uncertain, and Scar ending along with all the red flags with the man himself shows that you made the wrong choice before making the right ones.
Strelok just turns Skiff's new supposed home into his own cage.
All 3 endings require you to be a puppet for someone, except the last one.
Many say that the Zone ending is the worse ending for humanity and Faust won by manipulating Skiff, but tbh I don't see the first to be the case and the latter to not matter much.

surreal blade
#

Honestly i don't see it as "Faust manipulating Skif", rather "making him think for himself". Until that moment he was doing missions for someone else, trying to achieve what others want: Ward wants destruction, Scar wants the shining and Strelok wants security, but from now on the choices he makes are truly his own. The question that Faust basically asks you with his philosophy is "What do you, Skif or player, want from this?"

robust laurel
# shrewd igloo I dislike some thingis that i understand that are related to subttle matter or s...

It feels like you’re interpreting “Subtle Matter” in the game far more broadly than the game itself intends. I used to make the same mistake when analyzing it — thinking something like, “Well, Subtle Matter can be understood in different ways.” But the game actually gives a very specific definition, and there’s only one. It’s not something we can dismiss as “the definition is wrong” or “there are multiple interpretations.” No — the Representative provides a clear explanation, and the only choice we have is whether we accept his words as true, or decide that what we’re seeing are just copies (phantoms) rather than actual Subtle Matter. It’s strictly one or the other, because the game never presents any alternative definition, and no character contradicts it.

The logic here is straightforward:
If there is only one definition — for example, “Subtle Matter is …” — and we say that this description is incorrect, then that statement becomes false simply because there is no other definition. In that case, what we’re calling Subtle Matter just isn’t Subtle Matter. And the game does provide an alternative: “phantoms.”

So basically, it comes down to two options:

  1. Subtle Matter — the soul, free consciousness, true immortality within the Noosphere.
  2. Phantoms — copies; they may be alive, self-aware, and functional, but they are not the same person. They’re something different — more like digital immortality than a genuine continuation of the original human being. Something new, not the original.
terse mirage
#

Do we think Noontide/Monolith will ever be free? Or will the stay subjugated for the rest of their--likely, short lives?

cold quarry
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my view (wish) is that they have already awoken once, so it's possible for them to wake up again

terse mirage
terse mirage
#

So was Clear Sky similar to the Ward? They both worked under MDST.

normal drum
robust laurel
proven wolf
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shrewd igloo
terse mirage
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It just seemed like The Regulatory Board is what initially gave "The Group" their funding. So for me, it wasn't hard to believe that Clear Sky had some similarities to the Ward and how they also ended up in the Zone. Clear Sky being pawns of C-Con while not realizing also sounds accurate as well.

Thing is, we've all found Lebdevs PDA at Clear Sky Base, right? Clear Sky was in cahoots with MDST from what was texted to Nimble. So MDST helps Clear Sky, plays its cards right in the background, POSSIBLY conceals itself as "The Regulatory Board" for the sake of Agatha keeping things secretive AND simple for The Ward to understand and keeping Clear Sky in the loop because they already knew a good chunk of what was going on.

robust laurel
#

The leadership of Clear Sky knew about everything that was going on, but not the ordinary stalkers who joined the faction and were, in turn, truly set up. However, Lebedev knew everything.

proven wolf
# normal drum Not in HoC.

Yes, retcon. Hence, why the story is shyte IMO, as they couldn't get basics right... Like keeping a story consistent.

proven wolf
normal drum
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It ("CS is actually a break-away faction") wasn't even added directly to the game so no retcon ever existed.

proven wolf
# normal drum I don't care what lore behind the CS the developers had in mind in 2000s, but wh...

And?

It is what it is, and there are lots of people that grew up with SoC and CS, and just see HoC as poorly written fan fiction. And what was once cool and interesting lore, the tragedy of clear sky and how they got played, Monolith, C-con, the map, it's all now just nonsensical slop.

I mean, if C-Con and CS were working together, why bother have them fight through Lymansk and CCNP, was just wasting lives, money, effort, and time... Whey they could have just sent CS to an area under the pretence of a mission, and just switched on a PSI field, and turned them all to monolith and agents without firing a shot.

The whole reason why CS fought Monolith in Lymansk and CCNP, was because the higher ups in CS didn't know the truth behind monolith and their relationship C-con. Strelok was the lie/hook the C-con used. CS will always be my favourite faction, and still today, somewhere, deep inside I want Clear Sky to come back... That's the tragedy of the story of CS. But nah, fan fiction rewrote all this, and turned it into uninspiring slop.

strong flume
#

I mean I just played CS and can definitely see that Clear Sky is more of a faction that just grew together from people being influenced by C-Con on top and just wanting to have others watch their back and a home in the perilous zone just being the regular stalkers while also Lebedov definitely knew more than he let on about everything, he just seems untrustworthy and I mean...let's remember, you fight tooth and nail through lemansk, the abandoned hospital and then through the CNPP itself just to face off with Strelok, and the plan is too... "Shoot the device keeping Strelok safe from the emissions so the next emission can take care of him" I'm sorry I get we need SoC to still happen so shooting him isn't part of the plan but you are telling me just knee capping this guy and looting his kidney while we're at it and leaving him for Monolithians or an Emission to get is out of the question? That's just asking for that marvelous plan to go awry, and not to mention, ahem Scar literally gets told if he goes through one more emission without being in cover then he's gonna die and guess what, oopsie they just so happen to forget to get a psi helmet for the one individual who is helping all of this happen and is at the greatest risk to these emissions to begin with from the doctors of Clear Sky's own words and then it doesn't even matter cause none of their psi helmets can protect them from the massive emission that's about to erupt while we're right directly next to the blast zone of it essentially, turns out they were only planning for a small emission and not this massive monstrosity that we're fighting next to the center of

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And then in the end, CS just loses it's purpose and probably 90% of it's members and it's ideas are broken and destroyed and HoC you can find the guide who leads Faust's men to the CS base basically tell you that they basically had no point in rebuilding when their whole agenda in finding out the cause of the emissions happening so rapidly and fixing it was accomplished and yet also, who even wants to rebuild when they've lost so much and gained almost nothing besides just a good job we did it, and they all just left, there was no point in rebuilding, the whole point of CS after all was discover the mysteries of the zone and also to fix the emissions crisis that was happening in the zone which turns into their first and foremost objective

#

I guess you can argue some of them molded into Spark and went from there but honestly, Spark is moreso just a guerrilla faction fighting to keep the zone free (and reactivate C-consciousness in Scar's programming)

deep forum
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Yea, to be equally provocative that's why lots of people that grew up with SoC, CS and CoP just see CS as poorly written fan fiction 😛
This game uses crutches at so many places (running after Strelok in Limansk, the whole military for thee but not military for Strelok, the garbage fight in the end). I am not super fond of HoC take either as I think it gave CS leaders too much information and I am not entirely sure how that was meant with Scar in mind, but in general it works out.

strong flume
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Like don't get me wrong at all, I love the original trilogy and I'm playing the hell out of them, I'm replaying SoC just cause I'm waiting for the 1.7 patch to come out, I'm just saying it makes sense for HoC to give the CS leaders some extra depths as we see that they were meant to fall, their objective was to stop the emissions crisis and they did, losing almost all their members, scientists and leaders included, in the process, and then just were designed afterwards to disappear, quietly or by force of some other faction, probably bandits saying they struggled to kill boars and even lightly armed and armored bandits before Scar saved them

terse mirage
#

I love all of it. Not all the pieces may fully fit together, some pieces may be missing, but together, As STALKERS we can come to our own conclusions that satisfy us. Right?

robust laurel
# proven wolf HoC retcon... Sloppy story writing as I keep on saying

People don’t care about a retcon even if it actually was one — and you have no proof that it was a retcon. That’s just your own headcanon about “Clear Sky being enemies of C-Con.” If that’s the case, then prove it. Show where this is stated — maybe in Clear Sky, or perhaps somewhere in CoP? Is this a retcon of your fantasies, or what?

What’s more, the very existence of Clear Sky as a game already retcons SoC. If you want to talk about how “bad” retcons are, then direct that toward CS or CoP, where there were dozens of similar retcons — you just prefer to selectively ignore them and stay inconsistent in your arguments.

“Oh no, the plot ruined my precious headcanon!”

shrewd igloo
proven wolf
robust laurel
robust laurel
#

However, regarding Strelok specifically, even in SoC we already knew that he had gone to the center of the Zone three times in the past.

shrewd igloo
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vapid spire
proven wolf
robust laurel
# vapid spire I always kinda thought that some spark members were former members of freedom si...

When I first met them, I thought they were Clear Sky.

In the Stalker lore, Freedom in SoC was actually very similar to Spark, because according to the lore, Freedom in SoC wanted to study the Zone (you can hear it in their dialogues) and also coexist with it, and they even tried not to kill mutants when possible. Then Clear Sky came out, where Freedom’s role was shifted more toward caricature-like anarchists, because the role of a faction that coexists with the Zone was taken over by Clear Sky. And already in HoC, Freedom became anarcho-capitalists. Essentially, Spark absorbed the old version of Freedom and Clear Sky, while Freedom itself changed completely, like a whole different concept.

Which is actually great, because it’s a logical development of their ideology.

shrewd igloo
# proven wolf The maps a retron, and the changed it to be more like the real world, and it's s...

Several locations retconed are for progression-game thingis, id say that are more than the "Real zone" ones.
Some retcons of locations are good tho, Iron Forest, and some places on DUGA/Chornobyl-2, was unnecesary change certain locations tho, Garbage below Iron Forest/CNPP SUCKS, Zaton and Jupiter now have his OG locations everywhere (gameplay thingis, by don't have a map even more empty) and Zaton placement sucks apart of being a swamp besides a swamp (Zaton should be above Pripyat), Army Warehouses (a fiction location) and Radar (same thingi) should stay on his OG places too, for both, gameplay and lore purposes.

fathom veldt
robust laurel
proven wolf
#

I also find the map congested, too scrunched up, everything is too close to each other. IMO.

shrewd igloo
robust laurel
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vapid spire
shrewd igloo
vapid spire
#

Also how does the brain scorcher work now that its not before pripyat anymore. I heard the psi emissions arc like a rainbow or something.

robust laurel
robust laurel
vapid spire
#

Why was radar changed though. Like are army warehouses and radar actually real life locations like duga?

vapid spire
shrewd igloo
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proven wolf
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robust laurel
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proven wolf
#

The biggest failure of of S2, when it come to the map, is that they ignored north off the map.

A massive chunk of the zone spills into Belarus.

vapid spire
# robust laurel Yea

So I guess since its canon that zaton is in the lower part of the zone, then I guess azimuth station was a brain scorcher to keep people out of zaton.

shrewd igloo
vapid spire
#

Btw is the scorcher lab X-10 or X-19? I see it called X-19 sometimes.

shrewd igloo
proven wolf
vapid spire
robust laurel
vapid spire
robust laurel
vapid spire
#

You know at this point maybe gsc should remake SoC and CS and fixed these retcon issues.

robust laurel
#

Scar got into the forest through X-16, but how did the other stalkers get in?

vapid spire
#

They can just use the stalker 2 map since SoC and CS use the same locations anyway.

shrewd igloo
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proven wolf
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vapid spire
robust laurel
vapid spire
#

Like they already have the map so that already saves them a ton of work.

shrewd igloo
vapid spire
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fathom veldt
#

simply put unable to adapt to changes

shrewd igloo
#

I interpret the 2 of S.T.A.L.K.E.R 2 as another saga too, the old S2 too is gonna have several retcons but this isn't about old S2.

proven wolf
robust laurel
# shrewd igloo Perhaps couldn't there many "retcons discussion" if HoC wasn't promoted as a seq...

I understand what you’re saying, but the thing is, this is also a continuation, in a way. It’s a soft reboot, not a completely separate installment. Without the context of the previous entries, it would be impossible to understand the new one. But the people who complain about the retcon are just inconsistent, because there have been retcons in every part of the series, and it never bothered them back then."

fathom veldt
shrewd igloo
# robust laurel I understand what you’re saying, but the thing is, this is also a continuation, ...

Too, another thingi that would make this type of discussions about the lore less frecuent could be being less focused on have many and a lot of trilogy elements, like a lot of characters alive or that appear in-game.
Is weird, but with two problems with HoC are that, the retcons for old stuff and being focused on rescue many thingis from the ogs, idk how explain it but is like inconsistent/contradictory intentions.
Obviously should there retcons and characters from the trilogy (smth normal, nothing bad with it while be good) but i feel that shouldn't there many characters from the OGs on HoC, like, there much of both.

vapid spire
shrewd igloo
robust laurel
# shrewd igloo I interpret the 2 of S.T.A.L.K.E.R **2** as another saga too, the old S2 too is ...

On the contrary, I’d love to see a concept where each new installment presents the Zone in a completely fresh way.

What I mean is this: imagine a series where the creator is given a theme, and multiple different authors each produce their own episode. Each episode ends up being unique, reflecting the individual perspective of its creator. I’d like to see something similar in the Stalker series, where every installment offers a new take. For instance, one author might see the Zone as something mystical, while another approaches it from a scientifically grounded perspective. Each creator interprets it in their own way, making every entry its own legend within a certain setting.

In my view, this could be amazing, because the game’s core concept is inherently mysterious and ambiguous. That’s why even the canon doesn’t have to be strictly defined or uniform.

proven wolf
# fathom veldt tirlogy itself isn't perfect and a lot of thing are in dissonance, and all of th...

Of course not. I utterly dislike CoP...

And no one would begrudge tweaking the inconsistencies.

But they just retconned so much, so unessessarily and without thought to keeping it consistent.

Why make CS in cahoots with C-con, when the sad point was. They got played, and wiped out.

Ridiculous, changes.

And sometimes we don't need to everything, having mysteries is a wonderful thing. Not everything has to be answered.

fathom veldt
vapid spire
#

Come to think of it, none of these map retcons would exist if SoC just had one big map like other games around the time like oblivion.

robust laurel
proven wolf
#

Apparently

fathom veldt
robust laurel
fathom veldt
shrewd igloo
# robust laurel On the contrary, I’d love to see a concept where each new installment presents t...

Yeah, have several interpretations of the zone IS cool, i like see in non-GSC thingis for example.
Imo have books, or series that aren't necessarly conected one each other sounds cool, personally i would like that the "netflix series" or smth that Maxim Krippa (GSC owner) has interest on make (according to a interview of several months ago or smth, nothing official that is gonna be create really), be other story without relation to the trilogy or HoC on share a universe, just another story with his own base and world.

proven wolf
robust laurel
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fathom veldt
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shrewd igloo
# proven wolf As far as I am concerned, C-con played CS, as they saw them as threat... Seeing...

As the others said is not exactly a retcon because never it's mentioned, imo that "CS had actual friendly-communication with C-Con/The Group" (don't saying that C-Con and The Group are the sames) sucks on both cases because CS on Clear Sky (included his leaders) was like the "good bois" that want make thingis of good bois, now CS leaders are "bad bois"feels_bad_stalk (if u take C-Con and the Group as evils with a bad purpose).

I know and i like the concept of CS being a "fork" from the team of the project of the Noosphere while C-Con is just other group created by that event, don't sounds cool, just good because u can't create many stories with it, is not nostalgia in my case tho.
Instead CS Leaders being "bad bois talking with bad bois" is cool because u can make more stories with that as base, still, i explained that im on favor of the OG Concept.

proven wolf
robust laurel
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shrewd igloo
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proven wolf
# shrewd igloo Yes, Clear Sky (faction, leaders) was designed with that concept on mind but nev...

Just because it's not mentioned, doesn't mean it not a thing.

It's in the games design document for a kick off, and that's what CS was.

It's clear they didn't want everyone to know that were scientists that created the zone, so the cover story was, we want to learn about the zone... They already bloody knew most of it.

There goal was to close the hole in the noosphere.

Which was in direct conflict with C-cons goals.

shrewd igloo
robust laurel
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proven wolf
# robust laurel Do you realize how absurd this is? For him, a design document holds more canonic...

Ummmm no.

I kind a got the impression from the game, it's been a long time since I played it.

As the whole idea presented in HoC, makes no sense, seeing as in CS, CS fight monolith in Lymansk and CCNP. And why would this be the case, if CS and C-con, were working together? CS had no idea that Monolith, was actually controlled by C-con...

It's this that suggests CS got played by C-con. As I keep saying.

shrewd igloo
robust laurel
shrewd igloo
robust laurel
# shrewd igloo Im reffering to certain thingis of SoC, not all, thingis from 2005-2006, like th...

Let me try to explain it differently.

The thing is, the development of the game in 2005–2006—and especially some of the things that happened during that time—can’t really be considered canon. If we allowed that, one fan might say, 'this is canon but that isn’t,' while another might argue, 'no, the 2006 version is canon, but the 2005 version isn’t.' Where would we find a point everyone agrees on? The truth is, it doesn’t exist, because everyone will look at design documents and imagine their own canon based on exceptions.

To be consistent, we should treat as canon only what’s actually in the game. Anything someone considers canon from the development period is still just their personal interpretation—it’s not canon. Otherwise, if we treated those things as the absolute truth, everyone would end up with their own version of the 'correct canon' in their head.

shrewd igloo
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

The mission of Clear Sky was to kill Strelok. The Monolith failed this mission three times, so it became clear that a different plan needed to be devised

#

Strelok reached the center of the Zone three times, and only Scar stopped him. So if it weren’t for Clear Sky distracting the Monolith, Scar wouldn’t have been able to do it.

#

Scar wouldn’t have physically reached the center of the Zone without Clear Sky.

#

I have very little time to continue this topic I need to work.

proven wolf
#

A agents don't have free will, they are programmed to do the task they are ordered to do, everything else is part of the illusion.

robust laurel
#

I answered the question 'CS did fight Monolith in Lymansk.' Please pay attention to the discussion and to what you’re writing yourself.

robust laurel
#

I really need to go.

proven wolf
robust laurel
#

You’re going to complain later that you’ll get muted again.
Before asserting anything, provide proof. I’ve repeatedly proven that agents have free will—you can look for it in the chats. I don’t have time to repeat myself

strong flume
proven wolf
# robust laurel You’re going to complain later that you’ll get muted again. Before asserting any...

"The document refers to the transfer of the research team and all materials to another laboratory called X7, which will be used to research matters relating to the influence of the noosphere. The research team comprises: N.A. Lebedev, E.F. Kalancha and V.I. Suslov.
These documents must not fall into anyone else's hands, as they would be of great interest to USS analysts. "

From the X-8 Lab, all scientists from the Noosphere and X-8 labs... (CoP)

Hence, as I say keep saying, they broke away from C-con, forming the faction Clear Sky, so at some point split from C-con with clearly different goals. Head cannon my ass.

robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

So I take it that logic isn’t really your thing?

proven wolf
strong flume
#

I don't see it as they broke away, all those scientists have their own agendas too a point, but even those who went through the stralker program have the ability to think independently and do their own things to ultimately complete an objective, Kalancha and Lebedev especially, not saying they're agents but just that they have too much hidden and definitely aren't telling you everything, or well Scar, and then again the fact that their goals shift so drastically from just being, "Scientists trying to figure out the zone independently" (Honestly first lie) to "Figure out the whole emission crisis going on during CS" to then, "Stop the Strelok, and don't just shoot him, let an emission not only take him out, but basically possibly kill all of us in the process" just kinda screams, overly complicated plan meant to not necassarily succeed but burn the organization down after they're done

robust laurel
#

September 2011
Message from 9/03/2011
V. D.: In response to your earlier inquiry: As of September 2011, the anomalous energy emanating from the Noosphere remains unstable. The so-called Emissions are a consequence of these ongoing fluctuations. Continue monitoring and collecting data.
Kalancha: Understood. We’ll continue our observations.
Message from 9/10/2011
V. D.: To ensure the successful execution of the Cutter Initiative, you are required to accept Agent A:MS-017 into the group and continuously monitor his activity. Should any instability arise in his neuroprogramming, the agent must be compelled to seek out and terminate stalker A:LS-013.
Lebedev: Acknowledged. Initiating monitoring.

proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
robust laurel
#

Well, I’m not the one drawing that conclusion.
'Since they formed Clean Sky and went to the center, that means they are enemies.'
It’s not me—I can’t even put together a simple logical chain like that.

shrewd igloo
proven wolf
robust laurel
# proven wolf If the only thing you have got is to make BS up, that says more about you than m...

"Proof that CS leaders worked for C-Con? Here's the Comms Session Log from the Clear Sky base in HoC (PDA at the base in Swamps):
#s2-lore-discussions message
The fight with Monolith? Monolith failed 3 times, so C-Con sent CS as 'plan B' - to distract and finish off Strelok (Scar wouldn't have made it without CS).
No 'retcon' - the CS game doesn't contradict this, Lebedev knew everything. Your 'tragedy that they were tricked' is pure fantasy without evidence from the game.
Play based on facts, not on 'IMO shyte'."

proven wolf
strong flume
# proven wolf Will you stop posting that stupid BS, it makes no sense....

Okay so what that is entailing is basically V.D. or Dalyn's dad cause he's the only one with V.D. initials we know of at least unless there is another which there could be, is telling Kalancha, a founder of CS to observe and collect data on the Emissions, and then transferring an agent into their group, which means Scar, to eliminate Strelok, basically it's just saying at least a few members of CS were more closely connected to the C-con than they let on, now as for why the Monolith is hostile, well how many of these stalkers were agents or Monolithians in both Clear Sky and as Loners? Definitely not enough to warrant just giving them a free pass to the Sarcophogus basically lmao, as far as the Monolith and C-Con is concerned, any of these Stalkers can be a possible issue if left alive which is probably why the emission at the end of CS is so immensely powerful, nobody got to walk away unless they were already in cover or in a safe place or going back to the CS base

robust laurel
proven wolf
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shrewd igloo
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strong flume
#

The whole point of the CS trip to the center of the zone was to probably crack two eggs with one stone, Eliminate Strelok (Or well get him captured in an emission, cause idk what other plan they could've had) and as the scientists who worked on the projects all over the zone who were also the founders of CS are so good at, burn everything down when you're done with it, I think they intentionally went to the center with as much as they could, not only cause they needed too, but to scorch earth everything on their way out, their goals were complete, they didn't need Clear Sky anymore, the public goal of stopping the emission crisis was over, and the quiet goal of C-Con of getting rid of Strelok was at least for the time being, finished.

proven wolf
robust laurel
proven wolf
# strong flume The whole point of the CS trip to the center of the zone was to probably crack t...

This is the problem though.

At the CCNP, Monolith are fighting CS, and C-con rep is giving instructions on targets, CS targets for the sniper. All the while, Strelok is in the open and Monolith are just ignoring him...

CS just didn't need to be there. If the plan was to get Strelok, in an emmission, they could have just done it, as C-con was trying to hold back the Noosphere, and could release an emmision at any time.

Instead, Monolith swelled their numbers with CS forces. As per the ending of CS with everyone getting brainwashed in front of the TV's.

There is nothing to suggest that CS was friendly with C-con, as far as I remember it was always our "informant," and I honestly don't think he was part of C-con, and if they did, he was playing them.

ornate ventureBOT
#
.fire_fox. has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

strong flume
# proven wolf This is the problem though. At the CCNP, Monolith are fighting CS, and C-con re...

Okay so perfect, that's where we can start breaking this down on a level, so as I said earlier, it doesn't matter if the top peeps of CS were aligned with C-Con or not, they had too many regular ordinary stalkers in their ranks, and those are who they sent to stop Strelok, if the agents went, I think it'd be a different situation but also it would be a problem of where would CS be as a game?
But also remember, Strelok had protection, he had an artifact or something protecting him from psi fields and emissions which is why he was dancing around and instead of killing him, we got to destroy that so he could be caught in the emission, iirc that was Lebedev who was there, but guess who wasn't there, Kalancha who in HoC turns out to be an Agent due to the information we find but also neither of those two scientists seem trustworthy, the only reason we have to trust them that much is cause they saved us from an emission Scar survived, twice technically, now agents have their free will to a point, imagine Monolithians as the sledgehammer whereas Agents are the scalpel, their goal at the end of the day will be to do whatever they're programmed to do, but they have the freedom to not just shoot everyone in the room in hopes they get their target, they'll long con and do whatever they need to do that they think they can do to get their mission done, but most of CS is just under the knowledge that Strelok is causing the emission crisis, we're literally going to die if we don't stop it so we need to stop him, meaning they have an army of unindoctrinated stalkers willing to go get Strelok, but their goal isn't to kill him in the end, just let an emission finish him off as they sit there next to the source of emissions basically and have psi helmets on for everyone BUT SCAR

vapid spire
strong flume
# vapid spire I don't know if any duty members would join spark.

I think after SIRCAA and the Duga incident they would, just cause they felt betrayed enough by the Ward leaving them high and dry essentially in a small fort while their supplies are already running thin and aren't the best as they should be saying they're supposed to be a Ward puppet come HoC but they certainly aren't armed like a Ward puppet

vapid spire
#

Besides the ward literally does what duty wants to do at the end of the ward ending, minus the controlling the noosphere part.

proven wolf
strong flume
# vapid spire I mean duty wants to destroy the zone while spark wants to protect it like freed...

I'm not saying it'd be an immense number of Duty but if you do the one quest in Cooling Towers for them, they're holding a grudge, they all state how shit of a situation the Ward left them in and half of them are thinking of mutinying and if you didn't help the two left standing, it would've been one leaving and one standing to get Monolithian'ed, so it'd probably be a few Duty stalkers who probably lost friends or just felt betrayed enough due to the Ward's evacuation of the zone for the time being at least, that they'd put the Duty ideals aside just to cause some chaos and bleed them a little

robust laurel
strong flume
# proven wolf I get the impression the Ward wanted Duty out the way, because Duty would have b...

Oh most definitely, Ward used them as puppets, like the anouncement system in their base literally says how much they've become the lapdogs for the Ward, "The ward has our backs," "the ward is supplying us to destroy the zone!" and the moment they weren't there pulling their strings they likely broke the pact and went right back to war with Freedom and started their old ways again, sure probably openly friendly with the Ward and IPSF troops, but 110% some of them who probably felt disillusioned and lost after the Ward left from the Duga and SIRCAA incidents probably found Scar and Spark and just signed up to shoot at the Ward

robust laurel
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You can definitely tell that Duty expected to be treated equally to the Ward soldiers by Korshonov, but just got left behind and essentially told to fend for themselves and probably not that politely at that

proven wolf
# strong flume Okay so perfect, that's where we can start breaking this down on a level, so as ...

Sorry, but you completely lost me.

It does matter, as determines who they were in CS, and changes the lore about them. For me, I utterly hate S2 story, it boring, monolith back again, etc etc Not to mention to much in S2 is a retcon. Hence, the idea in HoC that CS new about the agents, fundamentally changes who CS were in CS.

C-con was supposed to play 4D chess. Just like the Wish Granter was a trap for STALKERS, but the idea of it was spread about by Monolith mumbling about the monolith, so STALKER's could over hear it and spread the myth of the monolith. It was a last resort trap to keep STALKER's away from learning the truth about C-con, whilst leaving C-con alone to get on with their plans.

The same with Clear Sky faction, it makes no sense to me that CS would know about the agents and C-con would tell them. The whole point of Agents is that no one knew that they worked for C-con, so why would C-con reveal something like that to the leaders of CS, there is utterly no benefit it to at all, and undermines the fact that know is supposed to know why they were.

It's clearly a HoC retcon, with zero thought put into the process.

Not to mention that that C-con rep, IIRC, turned all the former scientists, security guards, into monolith and agents almost immediately, hence why the Elite Monolith Squad is made up of the old former guards (If I remember correctly), so by this time, the CS scientists must have already left C-con.

Nothing to me has ever said that CS and C-con were on friendly terms, until this HoC retcon of things going on.

proven wolf
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# proven wolf Sorry, but you completely lost me. It does matter, as determines who they were ...

Nono you got me wrong here, CS didn't know about the agents, I don't think anyone really knew and if they did know about them, they definitely didn't understand them, the agents were secret agents as the name entails and if one of CS was them it'd make sense as to how they knew a lot about the emissions and came to the realization that Strelok had to die, but not die from bullets, but die due to an emission? The only sense that makes is if the zone would sense that the zone killed Strelok, which I'm not going that deep but you understand that at least, it makes more sense to kill strelok with a bullet than just stand around him with emission protection and just still be in a firefight for longer with Monolith who's forces are much more powerful and numerous, and sorry if you lost me, basically the reason Monolith isn't friendly with CS despite probably a few upper leadership members being STALKER agents, is cause not everyone in CS is an agent and a lot of them were just normal stalkers wanting to either just be with a faction, get paid, or actually stop the emission crisis happening in CS, they have no allegiance personally to C-Con which means if the upper members are C-Con agents working with C-Con secretively as their mission entails them to be secretive, mind you that's why I said they're the scalpels while Monolithians are the Sledgehammers because they can be surgical and precise and quiet about working for C-con while Monolithians are just kinda...bluntly obviously worshipping the Monolith who is C-Con in a way, anyways if the average CS member isn't an agent, Monolithians have no reason to be friendly to CS members in the slightest, they're not agents, they're not Monolithians, half of them are probably planning to loot the center of the zone as soon as Strelok is finished

proven wolf
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This is why I hate the retcon, it changes who CS were... and what happens in CS, makes no sense.

strong flume
# proven wolf But according to the post the other guy, they did know about the agents... Henc...

Okay I see where the confusion there lies, hold on a second, so likely that was an agent getting more orders, so they didn't know about agents, one of them was an agent, etc. getting an order to accept Scar into Clear Sky, despite them probably wanting to do so already, cause I mean, he survived an emission out in the open, nobody had done that without protection, and Scar does it...twice, hell technically three times

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In fact the third time was an emission so immense it fried the psi protection meant to withstand smaller emissions, conveniently while everyone thinks they're gonna be fine cause they have the protection devices meant for smaller emissions and are just gonna leave Strelok to get his brain fried by the emission

proven wolf
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# proven wolf Kalancha was one of the scientist that broke away and formed CS.

And technically so was Lebedev, hell half the scientists there were likely from X labs or some form of zone lab, I'm sure Kalancha could've been an agent all along, and there were probably more than him amongst the ranks of Clear Sky who were agents, cause we learn in Shadow of Chernobyl that the agents have the free will to do what they need to do to finish their objectives unless it's completely impossible and improbable to do so

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And apologize if I'm wrong, but Kalancha is the one who jumps to the conclusion that, to stop the emissions, Strelok must die

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Like if you start putting together a few of the pieces it starts to sound just...off at least to me, why jump to just having Strelok die? That's not gonna stop the emissions completely would it? Why not shoot him during the ending mission instead of playing leap frog and blasting his psi protection? Why leave it to fate that an emission would take out Strelok? Kalancha's ideas start to get holes in them slowly but surely, correct me if I'm wrong on if these are his ideas but still you can see that it's at least a little weird right? This isn't including HoC or anything, this is just base Clear Sky information that I may be misremembering but still I'm not including HoC yet or if I have, I haven't delved that much into it

proven wolf
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I'm not trying to sound insulting to you either if that's the case, but I'm pointing out the ways things just start to sound like someone's pushing a bunch of desperate people trying to be heroes of the zone into doing just questionable if not ridiculous things for the sake of stopping a crisis from happening

proven wolf
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I can't remember all the details, been a long time since I played it.

proven wolf
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# proven wolf But it's not fate though. C-con could release emissions at will, all they had t...

Still, unless someone knew C-consciousness was gonna release an emission, especially one the magnitude of the one at the ending of Clear Sky which they made it sound like it was a record breaking emission, which fries the Clear Sky protective equipment, it's up to fate, nobody can predict when an emission is about to happen due to the emission crisis happening, the beginning of Clear Sky proves that dauntingly due to the scientist telling Scar the next emission should be months away according to their calculations and equipment, despite Scar saying he thinks one is about to happen, and then one happens

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proven wolf
# strong flume Still, unless someone knew C-consciousness was gonna release an emission, especi...

It doesn't matter if other people knew, C-con would know if there was going to be an emission, as they were the ones in the Noosphere struggling to keep control.

I mean, it is not hard to imagine, that if someone told you, that emissions happen when x loses control, then it's pretty obvious that x could deliberately let one happen by deliberately stopping trying to keep control.

And we know this, because the C-con rep goes through all this at the end of SoC, and there struggle to keep control.