#Rhada’s Thoughts on Versus

89 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

modest tulip
#

Hi, before getting into today’s topic, I guess I have to introduce myself. I’m** Rhada** and I’m a game designer at Stream Raiders. I’ve been working on it for about 2 years now. It’s been a great experience getting to work on such a fun and unique game! I think my first designs were used in Primordia and I was involved in almost all events released since, and in many other features like Souls and Dungeons. And also in today’s topic: Versus.

I want to share some thoughts regarding what we want to do with Versus, so you can have a good idea of our roadmap and help us make that game mode better in every way possible before we release it.

There are three main changes we will introduce when Versus comes back: Versus Classic, Versus Duels and Special Versus Stats.*
*Names are still TBD but we like these!

Versus Classic will be the good old Versus with some slight changes, mainly that at the moment there won’t be any special IRL prizes to win. I know. It’s a bummer. But we will try to make the game mode exciting and rewarding still! Versus Classic will also be affected by Special Versus Stats. See below.

Versus Duels will be a new game mode that allows Captains to arrange battles between them. Our plan is to have that mode always available, so you can fight whoever you want whenever you want (as long as your opponents agree!). We will talk about this in the future, ‘cause it’s something we are very excited about!

#

Now, let’s talk about our main topic: Special Versus Stats. This is the third major change we want to introduce in Versus. We’re creating new stats for each unit that will be exclusive for Versus game modes. All your Units in Versus battles will be “leveled up” to a new “Versus Level”. This will be similar to what we used to do by upgrading low level units to level 10, but it will now affect all units up to level 30. This means unit levels won’t matter in Versus battles (except for specializations, that will make units a little better than their unspecialized counterparts).

In part, we are creating this new “level” so we can separate Versus balance from normal balance. This way, we can focus on buffing and nerfing units without hurting other game modes. And, also in part, we’re creating this in order to make battles fairer between large and small Captains. With no unit “levels” there will be less variance in units and the actual power will be tied more to Viewers coordination with their Captains and teammates.

Expect “Versus Level” Damage, Health and Heal stats to be higher and different from their normal versions. “Versus Level'' won't be a linear upgrade from level 30. Units won’t follow their level up trends , so if a Unit at level 1 had a stat of Damage 10, and that stat improved by 5 every five levels, reaching Damage 40 at level 30, that unit won’t necessarily follow that same progression in Versus. It might turn out to be Damage 45, 50 or even a 100. Same goes with comparisons between units. This will happen because…

…we’re also adjusting stats so there are narrower gaps between Unit rarities. Versus versions of Common units will deal similar damage and have similar health to Legendaries. We still want Rare and Legendary units to be more impactful, but we want their power to come from their special abilities/complexity and less from just having bigger values in their base stats.

With these adjustments, we are also aiming to nerf healing. We already nerfed it previously, but with completely new sets of stats it will be easier for us to have more balanced Healing values for Versus without hurting normal game modes. We could design Healers in Versus to Heal 12 HP! Or we could make higher healing and make units have more Health and deal more Damage, we have a lot of flexibility there to get it right.

The other thing this stats change will affect is Explosion Damage. Artillery, Busters and Flying Busters will have their damage heavily nerfed in relation to the new Health values. The change is intended to nerf Busters and Flying Busters so they can still be useful in specific cases, but not always useful in most battles. We want to make the “place one unit to kill 2 or more units” strategy not very viable. Exploding units will have their uses, but expect that to be less impactful. Artillery will get a similar nerf.

#

TL;DR - we want to test how the Versus experience changes if we remove the level factor and some rarity factors, so Captains and Viewers can focus on teamwork and coming up with cool strategies.

And that’s what I call “New Versus Stage 1” (Kermond note - I hate this name 😀). Units will be different, but not so different from their normal counterparts so battles will play out similar to what we’re used to. Despite the Versus stats changes, Warriors will be Warriors and behave like Warriors in all game modes. We will probably iterate on this with players’ feedback in order to adjust Damage, Heal, Health and other values, but for the most part, we won’t change much to what already exists in Stream Raiders.

But there’s also “New Versus Stage 2" (Kermond note - still a boring name, even if it’s super exciting). This idea will make Versus really different by redesigning all units and parts of the combat system to make a deeper and better game mode. We’re testing things like adding new types of damage and types of resistances, adjusting Attack Speed and Speed values of some units, removing abilities and adding complete new abilities to units. In the “Stage 2” universe, for example, units with ARMOR (usually Armored and Melee units) would reduce received damage from all weapons, but units like the Bomber would ignore that reduction because their damage would be something like Explosive of Fire Damage, instead of Weapon Damage. Or Tanks might deal a ton more damage per hit, but be really slow in their Attack Rate, so their overall DPS stays about the same but their initial hits are harder. Or if units underperform, we could redesign them: No orcs in Versus for the Orc Slayer to slay? No problem! We redesign the Orc Slayer to have bonuses against specific player units or groups of units. And in some cases we could go even further and completely redesign a unit that’s just not fun in Versus (Kermond note - looking at you Templar).

Our aim won’t be to completely change the identity of units nor the battle mechanics, but to add more things to create a better and more fun competitive game mode. I believe that the appeal of Versus is the battle of wits between Captains and their communities, and I want to create more opportunities for that to happen.

Keep in mind that these changes are not the only things we’ve planned for Versus. And we still have to figure out some stuff. But we wanted to share some concrete things we’re working on. And hopefully, we will also share some content like new stats for Versus in the upcoming weeks.

#

Stage 1 (just versus stats changes) is what we are aiming to release in the next Versus event. But we might introduce Stage 2 (or some aspects of it) if the community likes the idea and wants to try something different. Or we might cancel Stage 2 if you don’t like it. At this point we’re testing all this, and we’re still coming up with a roadmap that we can actually follow. We want to add all this while still releasing more Dungeons and re-using Events, so I can’t promise exactly how this will turn out in the end. We just wanted to share some of the cool stuff we’re working on! And, of course, read your suggestions and concerns so we can release a much better Versus than ever before!

Hope this update sparks your interest!
**Saludos, Rhada. **

sour lantern
#

What about unit souls?

boreal oasis
#

Goodbye facebuster strat.

old ermine
#

So when will we get to play?

remote garden
#

sheesh, thats a very extended update about whats going on, thank you very much! I really love the ideas, especially getting the game mode more strategic. Also, looking forward for Versus Duel. Brawling with other Captains will be so great!

jaunty owl
#

I will be glad the testing will be done in its own "game mode" rather than throwing the changes into normal PVP KEKkomrade no nerfing my balloons in normal PVP pls KEKkomrade

modest tulip
modest tulip
surreal sorrel
valid edge
#

This goes way beyond anything I was expecting if when versus came back. Versus duels is particularly exciting since it won’t be time gated.

#

Upgrading all units to level 30 (without spec) should also help newer players a lot with units that are mediocre without high levels, though many of those units also rely on their specialization: (heavy, wild, volatile, etc.)

solid wadi
# modest tulip **TL;DR - we want to test how the Versus experience changes if we remove the lev...

the PvP unit rework is thought up by someone who has never seen a Versus match and is clueless about it. Power values lie at the heart of PvP.

A buster play is really easy to counter, just need to know how. With say.. a lvl 1 rogue to detonate them ahead of your line. This is a power tradeoff that is massively in favor of the defending team. The buster player who doesn't know what he's doing loses by playing busters.
They don't need to be nerfed, because they're only good in the hands of a skilled player.

Healing needs a nerf? don't make me laugh. It would only need to be nerfed to accomodate captains who are clueless about formation balancing, which is the most basic of skills a captain picks up while playing. Unless he vibes everything of course.

Are you bringing back PvP for the PvP community or for the vibe community?

These planned changes only show the ignorance of whoever is in charge of this redesign.

#

Though I'll add, give players better info on the power values and target priorities. which has been feedback for a long time already. Give us PvP like a real game, not a campaign light make belief PvP where every vibe captain should fight on equal footing with people who are coordinated.

#

The unit that does need an adjustment in PvP is artillery, it was a plague for Versus since its introduction. Legendary cooldown availability being a decider just feelsbad. (which is not to say there is no counter, there is, but unfortunately its another legendary.)

Dark Shinobi could probably be tuned down as well, a teleporting buster was never a good idea. (again, there's a counter, a lvl 1 archer that burns the jump, the AOE and destealths it so it dies to melee)

Versus is fun because it requires strategy, experience and a fair bit of knowledge. Take the fun out of versus, it'll just see more players leave.

inner hazel
solid wadi
#

" We want to make the “place one unit to kill 2 or more units” strategy not very viable " means you want to remove the essence of strategy from Versus.

Strategy is about outsmarting your opponent and defeating his units without losing your own.
This is the core problem, if that's the foundation of the design philosophy, don't add that you want to let "Captains and Viewers can focus on teamwork and coming up with cool strategies. ", because you don't.

deft shoal
#

Hello everyone!

#

It brings me great happiness to see the CTV team thinking and trying new things, but most importantly it brings me the MOST happiness that they are being transparent about their future intentions, and are very likely gauging feedback from the community to see how this will be received.

#

I also like how the community is receiving this news with excitement, some hesitation, and the like. I would encourage our community to kindly provide the constructive criticisms on things that don't quite hit the mark, as well as provide positive feedback on the things you do like, so the team can do what we want them to do, for the most part.

#

Remember, we are all here in the Stream Raiders community and we all want the game to be good.

#

Give them a reason to not release these kinds of heads up in the future and I will be part of the angry mob.

#

Anyhow:

#

While interesting, I think @solid wadi hits the nail on the head in the direction of the new PVP versus, as far as what the community wants to see in versus.

As far as what the different sections of the community wants to see; the try hards will want their toys untouched (busters/thelike), and the veterans will feel absolutely jilted with the "Why the hell did I bother leveling my x to 30 when PVP will just boost me to 30?"

To that end, what would boosting everyone to 30 really accomplish? As someone who has played SR a ton and have experimented through all the different types of ways to cheese, boosting everyone to 30 does very little to the core gameplay, if anything. Changing the units stats in PVP also changes not very much. The core problems of PVP will remain: the fights, battles, and everything will remain stale.

The ONE thing that these changes will make, is that the gap between the small captains and the frickhuge captains is much much narrower, and I can expect to be duking it out with a much wider pool of players. I hope.

#

TLDR: Stage 1 only solves the problem of captain's fight pool being small, and expands that. I'll be able to meet many more new faces without having to annoy people by putting on code and hiding it to downscale to meet new people. Fun!

This does not, in any way shape or form, help the original problems with Versus.

#

Stage 2 is something with potential, but only for the short term. I don't really hate the idea of changing the way units work for PVP, but that CANNOT be the only thing that changes.

Let me make it perfectly clear:

The problem with PVP is not about balance. The problem with PVP is that once everyone figures out the optimal way to win, they will use that way to win that week, the next week, the week after that, and the week after that.

I want to play something fun. You know what's fun? Nanobusters. Shadow Cloak. That one Tower vs Orcs game mode we had. (As an aside, I promise you, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who EVER griped about that stupid game mode will 100% be in favor of that being put back in just for a breath of fresh air)

You know what's not fun? Okay guys, line of tanks, ok centurions behind tanks, only bombers. No archers just bombers and artys guys. Who put this balloon buster here omg pepega. For every single god damn match. The proposed changes will alter the units we would ask for, but ultimately it WILL end up being this, unless you guys are willing to tune the balance every single week.

solid wadi
# deft shoal TLDR: Stage 1 only solves the problem of captain's fight pool being small, and e...

it doesn't even solve that unfortunately, bodycount will matter even more. Since you can't play cheap.

Also newer players get the short end of the stick because their unspecced lvl 30 units have a lot less value than specced lvl 30 units, and their incredibly valuable low level units just lost their value.

Point taken on the tone though, I got a bit carried away.

The toys don't even matter that much, they served more as an example of a faulty analysis. best toy is still a lvl 1 flag ^.-

#

Your opponent pool will be smaller rather than larger the way I read the unit changes.

deft shoal
#

Maybe, maybe I'm the one out of touch. MAYBE I'm the idiot. But I think that before we have something that's "Esports Ready" competitive mode of SR PVP, I would want a fun mode of PVP. A mode of PVP where 80% of every fight you do, you leave the fight laughing and enjoying yourself. A mode where you have to, on the fly, adapt to some kinds of random boons given to you from the twelve different dungeons we've had in the past at random to outmanuever your opponent, who might just have some bonkers combination.

solid wadi
#

We've had that, map boons, towers, Olympus statues.

deft shoal
#

Yeah, and aside from the Olympus statues, all of those were mild has hecc. 🤷‍♀️

solid wadi
#

they were all cheesable and figured out within the first hour.

#

but sure, why not. can't hurt to have a bit of shenanigans.

#

Still I think the basics of PvP were solid, but past a certain size any SR map becomes more about containing placements than directing them. I've seen you do some amazing meme strats. Just sucks that the only ones left to fight at your size are.. Ovi, Angel, KMT, Toko?

#

Smaller scales and newer captains especially mainly get caught out by the information gap. Because there's so much gameknowledge that's inaccessible.

#

Souls also changed the game dramatically, they need a powercost that's noticeable. 10 to 20 power, still less than a flag but more than 1. I don't know the exact number for proper balancing.

#

Just ripping out most of the strategy and pouring endless hours into redesigning units when all they needed to do was updating tooltips is a costly and strange choice.

tawny gorge
#

no IRL rewards? it is ok. new level system? will make people just come tovplay versus... if in game rewards are good. in one side i understand why devs want to make it (it is fairly easy to balance everything and do not cause trouble in other game modes) so if we have a probpem thst will just happen on pvp, in the other hand why players will be playing for hours and hours? why they would buy a battle pass or play the whole week? there are players playing SR as a main game, they love the game. we are just telling them : you dont need to come abd play all week long, just play on this event and everything is ok. why would you redeem gold at a channel at the end of a map? why would you make your orc slayer lvl 30? i do underatand units nerf and buffs like in all competitive games we have now. but separate levels? it is better to level 1-10 to 19 or 19-29 to 30... the way things are moving, players will understand you dont want themcto be playing for 3h a day, 5h, 7h... many do play even over it... in my opinion separate levels will make SR crash and tells indirectly you dont want them to grind and you dont want them to take SR seriously.
Nitro have the same problem, no season rankings, leaderboard, no grind system. on my community they like it but they are not getting much also in nitro and we have a move here capable of making people leave raiders cause their main efforts wont have any impact

visual mountain
#

Love to hear about the update. As a non-regular, but stream riders-loving player, I really had the feeling the game is dying because new projects received more attention. Thus, really happy to hear from the game developer itself.

empty lichen
#

I may have missed this in all the info floating about but with the new proposed changes what will be the underlying stat that determines how many units can be placed for each captain - at the moment this is the power-bar where all units have a vastly different power cost based on level and rarity it sounds like this is changing?

modest tulip
raven grove
#

Alright! I apologize for not giving feedback on this earlier.

First off, I want to start with saying I am very pleased to see you have given this a lot of thought and am very excited to see some of the future changes!

Anyways to get right into it there will be some issues in having versus classic and special versus stats running at the same time. Specifically splitting up the community pool and the longer queue times that will result. In my opinion having versus classic out until you are done testing and getting special versus stats ready. I understand special versus stats is a bit experimental but based on what has been discussed it is something I believe should replace versus classic when it is ready instead of being another game mode.

Next thing regarding the changes with special versus stats.

  1. loving the all units becoming level 30. However it could impact power scaling especially on lower levels. The scaling may need to be adjusted. Other than that it could also really unbalance legendary units "artillery" so that will also need adjusting.
  2. Most of the stat changes look good! I am excited to see what you experiment with and how it turns out! Will mention that nerfing healing might be a bit presumptuous as the changes havent come out. You might even need to buff it depending on things.
  3. Stage two sounds lovely! Excited to see some units being brought into the spotlight (templar).

Now for the VERY important things that were not addressed that need to be looked into.

Competitiveness. Versus is a very competitive gamemode as you all know. It is extremely important to keep it competitive. (and fun for you mr honko) My main point here is the fact that there is little reason to be competitive with versus. There are no leaderboards to keep players motivated, no prizes to entice people to be competitive, and no official tournaments (yet I hope).

#

There was a leaderboard with prizes in the past. I strongly urge you to look into bringing it back. Probably without the prizes until it is fair and balance or without prizes forever depending on what the community wants. All I can say is that as the proud child of two parents with every single gold versus skin the hype for versus is extremely died down without it. I want to avoid a boring grind mindset for versus and bring back that intense competitive action.

Regarding tournaments depending on how versus duels turns out many people may start doing their own tournaments. (Myself likely included). I think if all goes well putting an official tournament on the future agenda of versus can really make the game stand out. So long as they arent anything like the last tournaments you did which was bad for many reasons I wont go into.

Last thing. For the LOVE of my sanity. Please do something about people placing on do not place markers. I know it might be a lot especially coding wise but at least consider it in the future. A competitive game mode like versus can easily be sabotaged by ONE person placing in the red. Codes dont fix the problem at all for bigger captains. I hate to sound like a broken record here since this is probably the 100th time ive asked for this but its that important. I strongly suggest you start working on this or at the very least put it on the list.

@modest tulip ^ ps: I am excited for the revival of versus and am eager to make it the best game mode. If you need any advice I have literally researched this stuff for years. If there is anything I can do to help feel free to message me @rhada 👍🏻

surreal sorrel
#

peepoTub Just floating by until VS happens peepoTub

austere socket
#

im just waiting for dungeons 13 and the next pvp

inner hazel
#

Pvvvveeeeeeepeeeee NightProwlers

modest tulip
#

Peeeeeeeevvvvvvvveeeeeepeeeeeeee

#

We want to call it Captain vs Captain or Community vs Community but it just never picked up in the same way PvP does

inner hazel
#

Any update?!

raven grove
#

@inner hazel I believe they said they were doing gamma tests on the 31st

inner hazel
raven grove
#

Not a clue

inner hazel
raven grove
surreal sorrel
daring marten
surreal sorrel
surreal sorrel
inner hazel
inner hazel
#

We testing boys

#

@jaunty owl getting smacked already. Bruh come on

jaunty owl
#

I only lost because... its broken... yeah thats why PepeLaugh

long pagoda
#

A specialised unit vs a un specked is a huge difference. A soul or no soul in a unit is a huge difference. This needs to be reflected in the power bar. It's to simple to just up all cards to the same level. Don't take away the need to grind. Add more statictics to this game. Give players and captains leader boards and stats. You need to create much more competition in this game. You need to find a way to be able to let more captains fight against another without one not filling the power bar. A solution could be to allow the captain not filling a 4th drop. Exclude legendry's from this fill drop. Don't give noobs units in versus they never grinded for. You are given a one day noob, who can't even drop on a marker properly a level 50 versus card! A do not drop marker should be a DO NOT DROP MARKER. Versus will only work if there is something to get. Sell versus tickets, for a dollar per, and use this money to create prises. Without a drive it won't work.

solid wadi
#

"lets equalize all levels so low level players can participate" -> low level units have lower stats, no special effects and cost the same as specced units. -> any unit lvl 1-19 is a handicap for the team and just extremely bad to place -> low level players are in trouble.

austere socket
#

yeah lets that

tawny gorge
#

i agree with everything @long pagoda is asking and saying it is needed. We need to have more captains on pvp. the worst thing is to battle another captain for hours.. i was thinking at least on something similar to dungeons rewards like: 10 captain wins : 1000 gold + 10 legendary scrolls. 20 wins overall : + 10 legwndary scrolls, 30 overall wins : 10 legendary scrolls. It is the least we must have or there is no point on playing versus. We must talk about facts. Most captains where doing pvp 8 months ago just for tickets and giveaway prizes, not for the fun. If you judt offer 3 bones x 2 bonus there is no point on playing it. on the user part i would like to have back the gold skins for the best players like in the past. "toxicity" cannot hold competitive scene. if you need or think it is needed to ban someone cause so do it, but we cannot have a mindless pvp with 3 x 2 bones rewards... sorry, improvements on rewards are needed. (we dont even have lvl difference anymore)

neon geode
#

You should get more bones than keys, the fact that you get more from doing 1 dungeon battle compared to 1 versus battle feels bad. if you can get 10 keys from 1 dungeon battle you should get about 10 bones worth of stuff from 1 versus battle + queue times and match times.

Tickets arent needed. If you need to pay people to play a game mode, then that game mode is bad

jaunty owl
tawny gorge
tawny gorge
# neon geode You should get more bones than keys, the fact that you get more from doing 1 dun...

so pvp mode is bad. you know 8 months ago people were aiming mostly for the tickets cap. unfortunately. something you
never did or i.
iclike the 10 bones rewards but probably that would lead to a scrolls auplis greater than they want on the game. there is no point on playing 3 bones x 10 keys. there is no matchmaking on dungeons nor the levels repeat like fights against a same captain. so dungeons is pretty more attractive than pvp.

neon geode
# tawny gorge so pvp mode is bad. you know 8 months ago people were aiming mostly for the tick...

there are so many different units now, plus infinite dupes, plus souls. yet the amount of rewards stays the same. less cause there is no gold loyalty chests. I think versus is headed in the right direction but there is no hype around it. Every time I see it, it is just the same battles on the same map using the same meta strategies. I personally dont see the point of joining in and playing

vivid chasm
#

Thank you everyone for your feedback! I'm glad you keep posting your ideas and concerns here!

I think we're on the same page regarding what you identified as issues for Versus.

Duels is not supposed to be the main PvP game mode, though. But mostly a tool for captains that want more options for their content. We also wanted to test if there are captains that want a tool like this one and for what we're seeing, looks it has potential. But we agree that we're not quite there. Yet.

Adding more rewards into it may be a solution, but we have two concerns with the Duels game mode: one is exploiters, the other, players feeling they must play Duels.

Since you can play quick, infinite matches, grinding Duels would be extremely easy. We do have some plans to mitigate that, but I'm not sure when will we be able to implement them.

The other problem we face is that we don't want captains and players to feel they must play Duels in order to progress in the game. But, as many pointed out, some feel that playing Duels is fun but takes up slots and time from real game modes. So they lose resources if they play Duels. We don't know exactly what we will do regarding this. Honestly, I think Arena should be the game mode with cool rewards, but maybe we're not scheduling enough Arena events.

Our main focus for Versus should be Arena. We want to introduce more content there and improve the experience, since they are supposed to be special limited time events. Our goal during the previous months was mostly to test the waters in the community and also see if our team can handle this game mode. And it looks like we can! So, we will introduce more reasons for everyone to be excited about playing Versus.

As you can see, we don't have all this figured out, but we're working on it and I'm sure will do some improvements to Duels and Arena based on all your feedback. Meanwhile, keep posting here and let us know how to make Arena and Duels better!

remote garden
#

Since you can play quick, infinite matches, grinding Duels would be extremely easy. We do have some plans to mitigate that, but I'm not sure when will we be able to implement them.
Have small rewards, like a single bone per match. if you fear this will get an infinite bone source, well, cap the bones earned per day. I think, earning a bone per battle played does not hurt anyone. Its not a huge reward that creates pressure, but it at least is something. This is a game of collectors of grinders. They need at least something to grind, even in a just for fun mode :D

#

For Arena I just wish for a reliable schedule. Like, having it every 8 days covering all the weekdays there are on a regular basis. So we can plan ahead our stream schedules and hype up arena.

jaunty owl
sour lantern
#

I'm quite happy with arena battles the way they are now. My only suggestions would be to remove duplicate units and unit souls from arenas, so that newer viewers and captains are on a level playing field. (The power levels take care of the rest.)

sour lantern
tawny gorge
tawny gorge
tawny gorge
#

maybe with something like 500 arena wins or 1000 arena wins you may unlock a skin. it will force captain to play arena and have more players joining it.

Skin recolor would be great, no cost to the company

tawny gorge
jaunty owl
# sour lantern I'm quite happy with arena battles the way they are now. My only suggestions wo...

I dont think that would be fair at all. Why punish long term players further? It would make no sense to grind then, like at all... why have souls at all then? PVP shouldn't be an even playing field. I feel like if I played from the beginning I should have some sort of upper hand... but even then you cant still beat a army with souls with an army of no souls... you just need counterplace and place effectively. PVP doesn't have to be dumbed down like that. That would not be fun at all

jaunty owl