old-cooling

[balmy glacier]

this with only my h100i fans going high not my 6 other case fans with no ac on and tempered glass side panel on

[inner pelican]

my pc is at 28 degrees celsius rn

like the internal temperateure

idk how to spell it ffs

[meager plume]

I have a Coolermaster master liquid 240ML RGB for the CPU cooler

[high orchid]

212 is boil at sea lvl

[copper patrol]

this looks good right

that similar to what id be building but i think id put the rad on top

[balmy glacier]

thats with 100% load on a core i7 so idk what the other guy is saying saying corsair h100i is bad

[balmy glacier]

thats good

what cpu you got

thats overly good mine better than average but yours is better what you got in there my guy

[inner pelican]

An intel I7-4790

GTX 960

8GB ram

1tb hdd

256 sdd

[high orchid]

@rare blaze did you delid too?

[inner pelican]

ssd

[balmy glacier]

okay was wondering how you were getting such good cooling not bad specs at all though whatso ever

[inner pelican]

yeah

im thinking about upgrading

[balmy glacier]

mines usually at a steady 40 to 42 on idle

[inner pelican]

Im not playing anything rn

[balmy glacier]

i have alot of power going through this baby

[inner pelican]

In games it usually goes up to 30-35

[balmy glacier]

my temp usually doesnt change even in game

maybe like by 5

[inner pelican]

I'm think of getting an 1660

[balmy glacier]

thats a steady step forward in the right direction

[copper patrol]

ive heard mixed things about the 1660

mostly good but some not so good

[balmy glacier]

its alright but compared to what hes got hes going the right way

[inner pelican]

and changing for an i7 5930k

[balmy glacier]

honestly i would recommend not worrying about the i7 part unless you do video editing or plan on doing vr

[inner pelican]

i can run most games on 60fps custom settings

oh ok

[balmy glacier]

even so you could easily use a i5 7th gen for it

getting an i7 5930k honestly isnt worth it

[inner pelican]

Ok

Ill just focus on the gpu then

im planning on either getting the one with 3 fans

[balmy glacier]

yeah gpu will be important then when you see if you get cpu bottlenecked then go for it

[inner pelican]

or the gaming x

dual fans

[balmy glacier]

your gpu should normally cost as much as your whole system give or take

[inner pelican]

ye

i got my pc for 700

[balmy glacier]

or at least half

you can get an gtx 1070ti rog strix for liek 350

[inner pelican]

the 1660 gaming x here costs like 350

is the 1070ti better ?

[balmy glacier]

than the 1660 i would definitely say so

[meager plume]

I went whole hog on my GPU 2080ti lol #noregets

[balmy glacier]

especially the rog strix version ooooooohhh baby the oc you can do on such a well priced card

[inner pelican]

its useless if you dont have a 9th or 8th gen cpu

[balmy glacier]

l;ol imma be doing the same my guy

planning on a rtx2080 lightning z

[inner pelican]

what's your cpu ?

[balmy glacier]

intel core i7 8700k

[inner pelican]

oh

then u good

[balmy glacier]

i know my guy i appreesh the look out

[meager plume]

I got the EVGA FTW3 Hybrid 2080ti

[inner pelican]

damn

[balmy glacier]

how are they ive thought about hybrids just dont liek the looks

[inner pelican]

i gotta have an rtx 2080ti in the next 8 months

[meager plume]

it's pretty incredible I run multiple clients of Eve Online and it never breaks a sweat

[balmy glacier]

i just dont know how i feel about the aio gpu

[inner pelican]

same

i dont like how it looks

but it could be beneficial

[meager plume]

yea I got it direct from EVGA with extended warranty and I hear they are good about returns and whatever if it dies

[balmy glacier]

i love the concept just hte looks i wish it was like a quad 120mm radiotor because that would fit perfect

[inner pelican]

I'm tryna make it aesthetically good and the performance equally as good

[high orchid]

does gpu have single radiator to vent out the back?

[copper patrol]

huh?

gpus usually have a fan right in the shroud

[high orchid]

hybrid

[copper patrol]

ah

ok

nvm

usually its one rad

you can mount it wherever it fits

[high orchid]

ultimate goal would be VR in flight sims

[cold island]

how many fans for a gtx 1070ti/ryzen 5 2600 oc'd a bit?

[clever berry]

depends on the airflow of your case

[polar trellis]

Anyone use a cooler master fan for their cpu. i just ordered a t4 in hopes that it will quiet down how loud my pc is.

[spare whale]

fan or heatsink?

theres a difference ya know

also bigger is usually better for noise

as the heatsinks thermal mass will absorb more heat and the fans can slow spin the heat away

[autumn sail]

What do you guys think about the Deepcool CAPTAIN 240 ex?

[copper patrol]

does anyone know if the AMD text on their cooler is also addressable RGB or is it stuck as white

[vale blaze]

That's the wraith cooler right?

[copper patrol]

wraith prisim

[vale blaze]

The ring around the fan is addressable, but AMD is not

[copper patrol]

darn

too good to be true

thanks though

[vale blaze]

It's still a good heatsink though

[copper patrol]

yeah

[hushed saddle]

question guys, whats the best brand of coolant to buy?

XSPC or EK Cryo fluid?

[river gorge]

I use ek cryo fuel, no issues for me.

[topaz blaze]

I use air and my laptop set itself on fire while playing Battlefield V

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[plain hedge]

@copper patrol You can change the color of the AMD logo on the Wraith Prism.

Not the best picture, but I have my AMD logo orange with a purple ring and cyan fan.

[copper patrol]

Oh

nice

thanks!

[plain hedge]

You can download the software directly from Cooler Master's website to change it. I remember mine did the color cycle and rainbow effect by default until I plugged in the USB header and that's what made my AMD logo white. Once you get the software you can customize. It's still not technically addressable since you can only choose one color per zone aside from the presets, but it's nice to blend it in a bit with your other RGB setup.

https://landing.coolermaster.com/pages/amd-ryzen-wraith-prism-rgb-software/

[copper patrol]

thanks!

[copper patrol]

its compatible with other software too, right?

[plain hedge]

I'm sure it is, but I know it's not compatible with iCUE...

[copper patrol]

alright

it would really be nice if they all connected to one program...

[plain hedge]

I 100% agree.

[topaz blaze]

When i look at your conversations I feel very uneducated

[copper patrol]

rip

[plain hedge]

Ha, @topaz blaze , don't be. This is literally my first build ever. You learn as you go pretty quick.

[topaz blaze]

ok...

[copper patrol]

hopefully ill be able to build my first build sometime this summer

[topaz blaze]

well I have a laptop and I don't know much about PCs

[plain hedge]

Watch a lot of YouTube about building a PC, you'll get bit and wanna buy everything you can immediately to make it happen.

My idea was to have a powerful and modest build without extreme RGB in the beginning, now look at me... haha.

[copper patrol]

im going straight for rgb

[dense heath]

i was thinking to get a laptop and thanks to the youtube videos i finished making a cheap gaming build

[copper patrol]

this is the case id be getting

[topaz blaze]

But when I watch people building expensive PCs, I actually want to do something like that but I'm still in middle school and not anywhere near to having my own job. @plain hedge

[dense heath]

you can get more for less money if you already have something to see the image

[copper patrol]

im goin into freshman year this year

[topaz blaze]

well yes but actually no

[copper patrol]

i had a job when i was 13 though

[topaz blaze]

bruh

[copper patrol]

i caddied at a golf course near me

[plain hedge]

Ahh, well do some old school jobs like mow lawns or do some extra chores around the house! Get your parents on board that it's a passion and they might help and support you.

[topaz blaze]

ok, And now that you reminded me of that, In our school we need to do practical work and they told us that we get paid around 250 euros / week. woah

[copper patrol]

lol idk the value of a euro

[plain hedge]

If you start small and at least complete a build to prove to them you can do it, I'm sure they'll support you. Plus you have this community to help. If this type of communication existed 15 years ago when I was halfway through high school I would have been doing this forever ago.

[topaz blaze]

its.... a lot

ok thanks! 😄

[copper patrol]

o dang

thats $281 in USD

[plain hedge]

@copper patrol It's about $280 US.

[copper patrol]

lol

[plain hedge]

Yeah, you do 6 to 8 weeks of that, you got a build at least like mine without all the RBG, but then you add it later!

[topaz blaze]

yes

[copper patrol]

imma have rgb fans, cpu cooler, ram, power supply, and maybe an AIO if i think its worth it

oh and the GPU logo text

[topaz blaze]

but rn I have a saving up plan (3 years) to buy the asus mothership. It's performance is amazing

[copper patrol]

dang

[topaz blaze]

that laptop will probably last about 10 years

[plain hedge]

It's still just a laptop to me, haha. Nothing lasts 10 years bud. It's very cool and ambitious though.

[topaz blaze]

Well, I like laptops because I travel a lot (to school, the see...) and I like to play games wherever I go.

That's how I do

[plain hedge]

Hahaha, I'm probably looking to add a gaming laptop in the near future, but I like slim and portable. I'd never waste money on a Razer, but the MSI Stealths look pretty awesome, and they can come in under $2000 USD.

However, I'm gonna let this channel go back to being about cooling now 😛

[topaz blaze]

kek

[silk lake]

yo guys!! I got my eye on the Noctua NH-D15 cooler (gonna swap out the ugly fans for some chromax ones. My only concern is RAM clearence... Do you think Vengeance LPX is low-profile enough to fit under the thiccness of the cooler?

[topaz blaze]

This cooling is pretty effective

[plain hedge]

@silk lake I found a forum on Linus Tech Tips that asked that same question, and it looks like one of the sides of the cooler has a notch to give RAM clearance.

This is the image someone had posted in the forum.

[copper patrol]

lol what holds the ram in

[silk lake]

awesome! thanks a lot. im looking to get off of this wraith prism lol, it's not cutting it anymore

[copper patrol]

wait nvm i see it

[topaz blaze]

who's genius idea was to add this emoji?

[plain hedge]

@silk lake Further reading, there may be issues with dual fans, so just test it out when you get it. There are lots of other coolers out there.

Seat the second fan a little higher and see how it looks when/if you do it.

[topaz blaze]

@plain hedge What's the best way to cool down a laptop? When I play bf V it gets to 80 degrees

[copper patrol]

you cant really cool a laptop that easy

unless you play in ur fridge

[plain hedge]

Yeah, laptops are tricky with that...

[restive herald]

In your moms fridge

[topaz blaze]

hahahah so funny

[plain hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/parks-and-rec-andy-dwyer-chris-pratt-jaw-drop-shocked-gif-4421172

[topaz blaze]

||its not||

[copper patrol]

just make sure the vents have enough space to ventilate

[topaz blaze]

hmmm

[copper patrol]

thats the best you can do really

[plain hedge]

If it's on a desk, maybe put something underneath to bring it up on an angle to help airflow. On your lap, just make sure the fans aren't covered on the bottom.

[copper patrol]

i have a cooling pad

[topaz blaze]

What about this?

[copper patrol]

it has a fan in it which flows air up into the laptop

yea just like that

[topaz blaze]

epic

hmmmm

this gave me an idea

Yea

This should do the job

[copper patrol]

niceeeee

EYYY IM IN THAT PICTURE

lol you have powerpoint open

[topaz blaze]

yes

im making a presentation

[copper patrol]

i havent used powerpoint for presentations in awhile

i use it mostly if i need to caption a photo really fast

[topaz blaze]

how old are you?

[copper patrol]

14

[topaz blaze]

im 16

well

doesn't your school give you presentations assignments?

[copper patrol]

we have chromebooks and are forced to used google slides

it sucks

[topaz blaze]

f

[copper patrol]

powerpoint is so much better

[topaz blaze]

it is indeed

[copper patrol]

its so much faster

but google classroom integrates better with slides

[topaz blaze]

i made a game in powerpoint

[copper patrol]

lol

[topaz blaze]

there is a mouse running in the labyrinth and u have to catch it by clicking on it

[copper patrol]

huh

[worldly heath]

Anyone have any opinion on corsair custom loop water cooling parts? Vs EK primarily

[clever berry]

9. No e-begging, or selling on this server.

[feral patrol]

srsly?

dang, so sad

[copper patrol]

bruh

[clever berry]

@south pasture please stop asking for stuff on this server otherwise i'll have to kick/ban D:

[feral patrol]

maybe cause ITS A DISCORD DEDICATED TO A WEBISTE THAT SELLS STUFF

but yeah

newegg doesnt want competition now do they?

you never know when a rogue seller with 2 followers overtakes the eggy

[clever berry]

it's more of a personal safety thing and newegg can't be liable for anything that goes wrong.

[feral patrol]

thats why you should ask tech servers that are just there for tech and dont need to worry about competition l0l

oh, the fancy words for it, yeah

you got it down pretty good @clever berry

[copper patrol]

woah there

[feral patrol]

hey @south pasture no need to be a insert word for pen s

[clever berry]

well thats a ban

[feral patrol]

is

wow, i couldnt even talk back to him

: (

[clever berry]

[daring pivot]

[copper patrol]

he went from 0-100 real fast

[clever berry]

i gave him plenty of chances

[feral patrol]

r/choosingbeggars lmao

[clever berry]

but it was pretty obvious he didnt read the rules

[copper patrol]

he was in #cpus-mobo-and-memory too

[daring pivot]

all he had to say was absolutely nothing lol

[clever berry]

[copper patrol]

lol i didnt ever fully read the rules but my common sense is pretty good

oof i did break #5 today but it was short and quick

[clever berry]

guess you're banned too

[daring pivot]

[copper patrol]

NONONO O

[feral patrol]

i neve read the rules of the server

but unless i'm warned

i dont know too much

[copper patrol]

i cant go back to talking to people who dont understand tech

[feral patrol]

as a matter of fact lemme read em

[copper patrol]

i just did lol

easy rules to follow

[clever berry]

if you havent noticed i give people plenty of chances but soon as you use words to attack people or certain groups i have to do zero tolerance

[feral patrol]

yes sir

[daring pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/paddling-gif-7623907

[feral patrol]

theo may act like he's in our age group

but once he gets going

he gets going boys

[copper patrol]

that guy was blatantly lying too

he was like 'i just need this one part for my rig' but he was asking in every channel for parts

[clever berry]

he was new to the server too, he never sent any messages before the begging

[copper patrol]

yep

[daring pivot]

at least butter people up first smh

[feral patrol]

choosing beggars lmao

[copper patrol]

thats not how you join a server

[daring pivot]

like i'm straight broke but i'm not gonna beg

[feral patrol]

oh i DID read the rules

[copper patrol]

gotta love the people who join and say 'im here for the giveaway'

[feral patrol]

i just forgot em

[daring pivot]

[feral patrol]

i used to do that so much

while i was saving y'know because you never know

[daring pivot]

saving? what's saving?

[feral patrol]

but then i got 250 in one night on my birthday and boom 800

[copper patrol]

i do giveaways because why not

[feral patrol]

and here i am today baby

[copper patrol]

i wanna build like a $1600 machine but the parts havent even come out yet lol

[daring pivot]

my paycheck's gone before it even hits my bank account

[feral patrol]

nice

[copper patrol]

i dont wanna get anything worse than my current computer and i also want a substantial upgrade

i have a gaming laptop rn and the thermals arent the best

it also only has a 1050ti

[feral patrol]

no one is ever satisfied

[copper patrol]

fair

[feral patrol]

zack what is your system rn

[daring pivot]

i'm satisfied

[copper patrol]

heres the specs

[feral patrol]

kk

[copper patrol]

its a good pc btw im not complaining

[feral patrol]

@daring pivot what're YOUR specs

[daring pivot]

it's a bit older, i'm running an i7-3770 that i got with a motherboard out of my boss's old computer at my old job and a 1060 i didn't pay for

[feral patrol]

oh

[daring pivot]

lol

[feral patrol]

ok then yeah you'd be satisfied

lamo

[copper patrol]

Intel Core i7 7700HQ 4 core 8 thread @2.80GHz
16gb ram (idk the speed but its ddr4)
GeForce GTX 1050Ti
256GB Samsung SSD
2TB HDD

[feral patrol]

you use a laptop you say?

[copper patrol]

good computer

yea

its all in a laptop

[daring pivot]

that HQ tho

[copper patrol]

yep

[feral patrol]

oof

1050 ti

OOFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

big oofity spoofy

[daring pivot]

at least it's balanced

[feral patrol]

how much was it

[copper patrol]

$1000

[daring pivot]

but when

[copper patrol]

like a year ago

[daring pivot]

oh okay

that's not too bad then

[copper patrol]

i guess

[feral patrol]

it isnt

[daring pivot]

gaming laptop prices were poop a year ago

[feral patrol]

do you travel much zack

[copper patrol]

my parents are divorced and i bring it between houses

i never use it as a laptop lol

i always hook it up to a monitor

[feral patrol]

ah.

i see

[copper patrol]

but the laptop has a crappy touchpad, not that many IO ports, and it sounds like a rocket ship because its so loud

also i cant upgrade it

[feral patrol]

maybe a mini itx build?

[daring pivot]

do something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIu_eVAGzS4

[feral patrol]

yeah

those kinds of videos help

so you can game on the go for good performance

[daring pivot]

and i specifically linked paul because newegg lmao

[copper patrol]

i wanna build a pc so

1. i can enjoy the experience of building it
2. upgrade later on
3. more power, better cooling, great looks

mini itx is too small

im doing a mid atx case

[daring pivot]

lugging around a 50lb computer is a pain

[copper patrol]

once i build the computer imma keep it at my moms house (i live here most of the time) and keep the laptop at my dads house

[daring pivot]

tru

[copper patrol]

i only go over there every other weekend

i can put up with the not so great specs for just 2 says

days*

[daring pivot]

yeah

have you decided on a budget?

[copper patrol]

nope

i know the specs i want though

and some parts

[daring pivot]

going for that 3000 series?

[copper patrol]

i waiting till next month to see if the 3rd gen ryzen is good

yeah

[daring pivot]

wait for those independent benchmarks, man

[copper patrol]

ik

thats what im waiting for

[daring pivot]

if steve from gamers nexus tells me it's good, i....might have the money to upgrade

i really need to because plex murders my cpu

[copper patrol]

oof

what cpu do u have

[daring pivot]

it's an i7-3770 i "misappropriated" from a PC my old boss threw away

[copper patrol]

ah

[daring pivot]

and the motherboard

and the ram

and the hard drives

[copper patrol]

i wanna write stuff on a motherboard

[daring pivot]

oh like those little OLED panels?

[copper patrol]

wait shoot

im dumb

a white board

ive been talking too much about computers

its 11:20pm and im tired

[daring pivot]

it's 12:19 here

[copper patrol]

eastern time zone amirite

im in central

wait no

[daring pivot]

yeah i'm eastern

[copper patrol]

wait

dfhwjcjejjdjdje

im t i r e d

[daring pivot]

lol

https://tenor.com/view/le-tired-letired-end-of-gif-9653977

[copper patrol]

heres the specs i want for my computer build

8 core 16 thread processor at at least 3ghz
rtx 2060
16gb (2x8gb so i can upgrade to 32 later) 3200MHz g.skill trident z rgb
850w psu
thermaltake level 20 mt argb
maybe an AIO for cooling

[daring pivot]

that's reasonable

[copper patrol]

ik the exact part for some specs but not for others yet

[daring pivot]

now i'm a proponent of higher than needed wattage

but for that, 850's a bit over

[copper patrol]

i also wanna be future proof

[daring pivot]

honestly a good quality 650w would be fine

[copper patrol]

so 850 ensures i can upgrade stuff

[daring pivot]

parts only getting more power efficient

[copper patrol]

also thermaltake doesnt make psus that are the type of rgb that i want in 650w configs lol

[daring pivot]

tru tru

[copper patrol]

lemme find a pic of the case i want

doesnt that look great

comes with all the fans id need

3 of which are rgb

[toxic palm]

Normies

[daring pivot]

swanky

the level 20 cases are nice

[toxic palm]

I have an i9 and a 1660ti

[daring pivot]

now that's an imbalance

[copper patrol]

yee

upgrade to rtx lol

cant wait for rtx card price drops when the super cards come out

[daring pivot]

yeah

i'mma keep my 1060 a bit longer

[copper patrol]

1060 is decent

[daring pivot]

it also has a lifetime warranty on it

so

[copper patrol]

niceee

[daring pivot]

i bought a GTX 460 back in 2010, the last SKU with a lifetime warranty

[copper patrol]

rtx 2060 is not good for ray tracing but its cheaper than a 1070 and better in performance according to benchmarks lol

[daring pivot]

over the years, that's turned into 2 660Ti, 2 960s and a 1060

[feral patrol]

i also want an rt 2060 if not 2070

then i is happy

[copper patrol]

2070 starts to get kinda expensive

[feral patrol]

and i need some corsair rgb fans and smore storage

[livid pine]

I just signed up for the sweepstakes so i should be fine with my 2080tis

[copper patrol]

oh yeah i forgot the storage spec for that pc build i wanna do

i was planning on a 1tb m.2 ssd and like a 2tb hdd

[daring pivot]

nice

storage?

[copper patrol]

might get 2 2tb ssds so i can run them in raid 1

[clever berry]

dats a lot of 2TB drives

[daring pivot]

yeah

[copper patrol]

that may be a lot of drives but my dad has 2 8tb drives running in raid 1

[daring pivot]

i have upwards of 6 people pulling from my plex server at any time

here's the thing, i only paid for 2 of those drives

[feral patrol]

guys

i have question

if you have an os on one drive

and it becomes full and you install another drive

[daring pivot]

no, it won't transfer

[feral patrol]

will it just download more games on that and continue

[copper patrol]

yep

[feral patrol]

is it that simple

[copper patrol]

it will work just fine

[feral patrol]

aight just making sure

[daring pivot]

you're setting yourself up for failure

[copper patrol]

when youre running game installers make sure you select the install location tho

[daring pivot]

because Windows 10 1903 and up won't update if you don't have at least 7GB free

[copper patrol]

if youre doing steam, google search how to make a steam library on a different drive

[feral patrol]

ye i gotcha

[copper patrol]

id explain how to do it but i forgot lol

[daring pivot]

really it prefers that you have upwards of 64GB free

[copper patrol]

pretty easy tho

[feral patrol]

that's all i was making sure

[copper patrol]

yknow what i HATE abt windows

[daring pivot]

settings - downloads - steam library folders

[copper patrol]

i was outta storage and it was claiming i was on the latest version of windows

[feral patrol]

if my steam folders in in the drive with no more storage

will it just download it fine on the other one

[copper patrol]

i clean some space, and all the sudden a new update is available

[daring pivot]

they're doing 1903 differently because it has a bug that will reassign drives under certain circumstances

[copper patrol]

@feral patrol yes

[feral patrol]

ok got it

[copper patrol]

the games you have on ur current drive will stay there

[feral patrol]

question has been answered

thank you ma'm

[copper patrol]

but any new games you have will be downloaded to the other drive

[daring pivot]

you can also set default install locations on any of the launchers

[feral patrol]

i got it

alright thanks guys

[copper patrol]

yep

[feral patrol]

ima play one more game and ima just browse reddit for the rest of the night

[copper patrol]

lol a new hard drive is like a big usb dribe

drive*

completely empty when u put it in

so much better than saving everything on the same drive u have windows on

[daring pivot]

yeah

[feral patrol]

i only have 480gb on my current ssd

65 gigs remaining

[copper patrol]

rip

[feral patrol]

saving up for 1tb version dont worry

just waiting till christmasss

[daring pivot]

my 240GB SSD has 3 years of constant uptime on it

[copper patrol]

i have 256 with like 2gb remaining on my ssd

its not good

i have a 2tb hdd tho

[daring pivot]

you know it's bad to completely fill up an SSD, right?

[copper patrol]

yup

i gotta clear it out a bit

should be easy

just uninstall a bunch of programs i dont use anymore

[feral patrol]

eh

all the storage is stuff i need and use

programs

apps

games

os

etc.

[daring pivot]

the only things i install on my SSD are regular programs, there's no discernable improvement for games on an SSD

[feral patrol]

and why is it bad

any particular reason

[copper patrol]

im 14 and primarily use chrome, minecraft, steam, and a couple games

[feral patrol]

because i can just get 2 drives

[copper patrol]

oh

and discord

[daring pivot]

https://pureinfotech.com/why-solid-state-drive-ssd-performance-slows-down/

[copper patrol]

everything else just goes bye bye

[daring pivot]

it's because of not only the way TRIM works

but also the way things are stored as electrons

realistically you're supposed to leave ~15% of your SSD unallocated for TRIM to work its best

in older drives the controllers literally could not handle the NAND being full

[obsidian hull]

would it be worth it buying a new sata ssd for my system?

[daring pivot]

what are your specs?

[obsidian hull]

mine is a SiliconPower 500GB i bought like 5 years ago

[copper patrol]

a ssd upgrade to any computer usually does it wonders

[daring pivot]

the improvements in NAND structuring and the likes of Phison controllers say yes

[obsidian hull]

i mean d oyou want FULL specs or just the SSDs?

[daring pivot]

nah, the age of the SSD told me what i needed to know

as long as your motherboard supports SATA 3 6GB/s

then a new SSD would do you good

[obsidian hull]

yeah... its back when they had like a ranbow color

[white imp]

what is a good cpu cooler

[daring pivot]

depends on budget

[obsidian hull]

mines a B350 Tomohawk, it has like 4 6Gbs SATAs

[daring pivot]

yeah, you'd see an improvement

[obsidian hull]

Air or Liquid?

[white imp]

air

[daring pivot]

what kind of money are you looking to spend?

[obsidian hull]

Hyper 212 Blackout/Evo

[daring pivot]

that's the best bang for your buck right there

[left nymph]

it depends on what you're really willing to do

[obsidian hull]

i've used 4 of those in my builds, NONE have ver shit the bed on me

[white imp]

50 to 100

[obsidian hull]

like i said, hyper 212

[left nymph]

Then air might be pretty good

[daring pivot]

then go for this air cooler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdxNKJDAcfw

[obsidian hull]

and buy a second fan wit hthe extra money so you can get a push and pull

[daring pivot]

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NH-U12A-Premium-High-Performance-NF-A12x25/dp/B07PG8F8DF

[toxic palm]

I have an i9 and 1660ti

[feral patrol]

lmao

i9 with a 1660ti

[daring pivot]

that's an imbalance

[feral patrol]

yes sir that sure is

[obsidian hull]

theres another collermaster one, i cant remember the name off the top of my head, its like $60 but it has 2 fans

[feral patrol]

i have lil bro of ti

TI

[daring pivot]

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers/masterair-ma610p/

that one?

or that one? https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-MasterAir-Addressable-MAM-T4PN-218PC-R1/dp/B07CPYM6NR

[fierce slate]

i plan on switching from ryzen 7 1700 and gtx 1070 to i9 9900k and rtx 2070

[toxic palm]

U realize a 1660ti is better than a 2070 right,

[fierce slate]

ummm no its not

[feral patrol]

lmao

[clever berry]

it's not

[toxic palm]

It’s in between a 2070 and 2080 in terms of performance sir

[feral patrol]

SOMEONE has a screw lose

no sir.

no it doesnt

it is worse than an rtx 2060 by a simple google search

[obsidian hull]

it really is like about the same (maybe) as a RTX 2060!

[daring pivot]

nope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_KFumEY7O0

[feral patrol]

may we all ask where you got your info from

[fierce slate]

the 16 series has low memory bandwith

[feral patrol]

and its only in the range of under 300

[daring pivot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuDJtELq8QM

[feral patrol]

where did you get this lie?

[clever berry]

2060 gets you 15% more frames than a 1660Ti on average

[white imp]

ok good to know

[feral patrol]

i have a 1660, and i know the ti isnt too much better, let alone "better than a 2070"

lmao

[obsidian hull]

just buy a used 1080, its what I have and it only cost me $400 like a year ago, now it can be found for ~$300

[feral patrol]

just dont tell lies, there's a lot of new people in tech and they dont wanna be misled

[daring pivot]

there are a lot of seasoned veterans to call that stuff out too, thankfully

[fierce slate]

the boost clock on a 1660ti is like 1700 mhz my 1070 hits 2k sometimes and ive heard 2070's hitting 2200-2300 mhz so now way is it faster lol

[obsidian hull]

mhm

[feral patrol]

lol

you dont need to be a veteran

[daring pivot]

even my 1060 hits 2100Mhz

[feral patrol]

you just need to be in the right mind and do your research

userbench is one of the easiest ways to help you

[obsidian hull]

i dont really bother OCing my card, it hits high framerates just fine without it and i get to keep it fairly cool, i think my max temp is like 75 maybe....

[daring pivot]

it depends which game i'm in

like Astroneer gets my 1060 up into the 75-80c range

but in DOOM 2k16 it stays frosty

[obsidian hull]

yeahhh.. though im CRANKING my card on basically all games so it stays around 70

[ruby knoll]

Whats better, water cooling or a Noctua - NH-D15 for an i9 9900k? Im open to either but input as to why one is better than the other.

[copper patrol]

depends

you gotta see if a 2 fan or 3 fan rad is worth it

for water cooling

[ruby knoll]

but can the noctua do the same job for less?

[copper patrol]

the noctua fan is REALLY big

you might end up blocking some ram slots

i suppose it could work though

[ruby knoll]

Im planning on going with the Rosewill thor v2 so i should have room

[copper patrol]

but if u wanna do overclocking i think water cooling is better

i mean

like

on the actual motherboard

the fan is so big it might cover a couple ram slots

[ruby knoll]

i guess thats something to consider

[copper patrol]

yeah

water cooling is a bit risky because there could always be spills

an AIO eliminates that problem

[ruby knoll]

Whats an AIO?

[copper patrol]

all in one

[ruby knoll]

Im kinda new to the comp building scene

i see

[copper patrol]

they look like this

[ruby knoll]

Ive soon those too

[copper patrol]

it goes from the cpu, to the radiator, back to the cpu and so fourth

but

if you wanna add things to ur loop like water cooling ur ram or gpu, youre gonna have to make a custom loop

[ruby knoll]

those can get less efficient in cooling after a little while though, right? since the fluid warms up

[copper patrol]

not really no

the radiator cools it off

[ruby knoll]

Thats just what i read,

[copper patrol]

hm

i suppose it could

[ruby knoll]

Im just weighing my options

[copper patrol]

yea definitely

on the noctua side, the fins could heat up a lot though

[ruby knoll]

A custom loop sounds kinda sketch for me since i havent had any other builds yet. although maybe a project for the future

It has amazing reviews including for the 9900k which is why im slightly leaning that way

[copper patrol]

custom loops are definitely harder to set up yes

if its ur first build then id say go with the air cooler

just beware about the ram slots

[next moss]

Low profile ram if you have a big cooler

[copper patrol]

yeah

[ruby knoll]

Any examples of low profile vs regular?

[copper patrol]

low profile is shorter

[feral patrol]

its basically shorter

thats about it

[copper patrol]

this is regular ram

this is low profile ram

see how its a lot smaller

in height

[ruby knoll]

Ah, because this is what i had been planning on

[copper patrol]

yeah

if youre getting that huge air cooler you might have to get low profile ram

you might wanna get it anyway just to be sure

[tranquil ember]

Hey gimme rgb pro

[copper patrol]

also make sure you install the ram before you install the cooler

[ruby knoll]

lol

[daring pivot]

been there, done that

it's not a fun time

[feral patrol]

mHm

[copper patrol]

there is a single fan mode

[feral patrol]

low profile ram isnt a big difference compared to the regular

[copper patrol]

and you can fit ram in there better

but you sacrifice cooling capability

[feral patrol]

depends

it can fit

depending on how big the cooler is

[next moss]

Yea it's just cooling

[copper patrol]

it recommends up to 64mm tall ram in single fan mode and 32mm tall ram in regular

[shadow flax]

or get an aio

[copper patrol]

thats... what we were discussing oof

[shadow flax]

oh whoops didn't scroll that far up

[worldly heath]

That noctua will outperform most AiO coolers on the market if you can fit it

But there's also noise you have to consider, AiO offers quieter performance

[copper patrol]

yup

[worldly heath]

It does depend a lot on your case too

Some cases won't have clearance for a big air cooler, or might have too restricted if an air flow for them to work well

Same can be said about AiO. Different cases can fit different size radiators

[topaz blaze]

Does liquid metal really make a diffrence for laptops?

Or is it just a spoof?

My GPU runs at 199f

[daring pivot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdTsra-uLBI

watch that

[topaz blaze]

20c to f 30f?

wow. that's a big diffrence

I should try it

It's always 26c inside my house (80f ) ]

[daring pivot]

laptops naturally run hot, so if you think you have the patience and skill to do it

it can make a huge difference

[worldly heath]

What kind of laptop are we talking about?

[feral patrol]

gaming

prob

[daring pivot]

@rose sonnet

[topaz blaze]

Yeah, Its a workstation laptop I turned into a gaming laptop. :/

[topaz blaze]

Bruh

[daring pivot]

i second that bruh

[topaz blaze]

Hello, police? I would like to report a bruh moment.

[daring pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/blank-stare-really-idontbelieveyou-side-gif-6151149

[misty olive]

Good morning, would anyone know if a Cooler Master - MA610P CPU cooler would have the clearance to fit over a set of Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro?

[daring pivot]

lemme look, just a sec

it will not

RAM clearance on the MA610P is 34.3mm and the RAM is 51mm apparently

actually

sorry, bit of misinformation on that forum

according to bestbuy the ram is 26.162 mm, so it should fit fine

[misty olive]

Awesome! Many thx, @daring pivot !

[daring pivot]

you bet

[misty olive]

Well I guess not awesome cause I want the Corsair pro to show ha >_<

[daring pivot]

which motherboard are you going for?

[misty olive]

Looking at the Asus ROG Maximus XI Formula

[daring pivot]

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8555/cooler-master-masterair-ma610p-cpu-review/index5.html

looking at this page specifically

he's using fairly tall RAM with the MA610P on a Maximus VIII Hero

[misty olive]

Wow nice find...it just barely covers the first dimm not bad!

You think I could overclock a 9900k with just that at 5.0Ghz? Or is an AIO or custom water block with loop automatically necessary?

[potent cedar]

@misty olive Not really, aio is ok if you DELID your 9900k

[misty olive]

Sorry for the noob question...what does it mean to delid?

[daring pivot]

something you don't need to do

it means removing the heat spreader from the die of the CPU

[potent cedar]

@misty olive basically replace shi**y stock thermal coolant inside the CPU and putting a much better metal liquid coolant

[daring pivot]

and not at all recommended for someone just starting out

[potent cedar]

im not telling him to do it

I dont think anyone will ask more than 35 or 40 for doing it

if theres someone asking more than that, its a scam

Believe me delidding is necessary to stay below 60 grades even at full throttle

[daring pivot]

@misty olive look into the Noctua NH-D15, the Noctua NH-U12A or the Dark Rock Pro 4

[potent cedar]

Ryujin 360 too

[daring pivot]

for sure

[potent cedar]

very cool and high quality aio

I've had the opportunity to use it myself a 9900k oc

ocd to 5.0

Went full load playing the witcher 3 at 4k 144hz

not even 67

57

[daring pivot]

i would say that's a bit pricey, but if you're going for a 9900k build, that $280 isn't really all that much

[potent cedar]

sorry

Yes, that's true

[daring pivot]

but if you want an air solution the Noctua NH-D15 is your best bet

[potent cedar]

definitely

[misty olive]

I was hoping to avoid the aio so it wouldn’t cover the RGB mem but I guess I can mount it up top and have the tubes go towards the back? Was going for a lil show

[potent cedar]

@misty olive air cooling is an option with delidding if you dont want to go aio

[daring pivot]

your AIO is actually your best best for keeping your RGB memory clear

the air cooler is going to block it, especially when you need one as large and bulky as an NH-D15

[potent cedar]

^^^^

[misty olive]

That Ryujin can only be mounted in front looking at where the tubes come out to the right?

[potent cedar]

BNot really

it can be in the top too

[daring pivot]

yeah if your case supports a 360 rad in the top

[potent cedar]

I've seen a ryujin mounted in the top of a Cougar case

[daring pivot]

then that's the go to

[misty olive]

Would it be horrible to swap the noctua fans with some Corsair rgb LL120s or am I downgrading the performance?

[potent cedar]

I'm not too much into fans

[misty olive]

Ok I’ll do more research on that AIO as well as the other stuff you have mentioned. Thank you both for your time and suggestions!

[potent cedar]

No problem bud take your time

[worldly heath]

Doesn't the 9900k have a soldered ihs and isn't worth deliding?

[river gorge]

I always say if you have to delid anything to repaste / make it cooler as soon as you buy it, it's not worth getting.

[worldly heath]

Nobody said you HAVE to delid anything, it only matters when trying to push overclocking.

[topaz blaze]

i kinda wanna delid my 7700k

[daring pivot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkT2SYl5xpY

[copper patrol]

@topaz blaze be careful

you void u warranty on it

also you can break it lol

[topaz blaze]

yeah true lol

let's just hope that doesn't happen

i'm also thinking of reapplying thermal paste to my GPU as well

[daring pivot]

now that's ez pz

[topaz blaze]

cuz like something weird happened to my rtx 2060

when i first got it i could play anthem at high settings and get 70 FPS

[daring pivot]

most add in partners don't mind you replacing your thermal paste either

[topaz blaze]

but then suddenly i started getting only 50 FPS on low settings

[daring pivot]

any changes in temps?

[topaz blaze]

idk

[daring pivot]

use msi afterburner to track

[topaz blaze]

alright

[copper patrol]

check power settings make sure its set to performance

[daring pivot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUS3zx0DlHg

[topaz blaze]

@copper patrol do i check in bios or something?

[copper patrol]

no

[daring pivot]

nah, nvidia control panel

[copper patrol]

you can do it in control panel

[daring pivot]

under 3d settings

[copper patrol]

oh

[topaz blaze]

kk

[copper patrol]

i was thinking of something else

this thing

[daring pivot]

yeah you can change system wide power in there

but in nvidia control panel you can set the GPU itself to max performance or whichever

[copper patrol]

ah

[daring pivot]

yeah

[topaz blaze]

i tampered with my 3D settings a while ago and i reset them to default just now

could that have been the issue?

[copper patrol]

maybe

[topaz blaze]

aight well imma go test anthem rn

brb

[daring pivot]

did you get the on-screen display set up in afterburner?

[topaz blaze]

oh not yet

i'm currently running the overclocking scanner

the boost clock of my GPU is 1860Mhz i'm averaging at about 1965Mhz

[daring pivot]

nice

the OC scanner can introduce some instability

so if you notice it, just dial it back a bit

and make sure you crank the core voltage %, power limit and temp limit to the end of their bars

it won't hurt your card in any way, it just ensures it can run to 100% capacity

[topaz blaze]

is this good

[daring pivot]

core clock +0MHz

your 2060 should be able to hand an offset of about 100MHz or so pretty easily

so i would manually dial that in

[topaz blaze]

so change core clock from 0 to 100

and then drag core voltage, power limit, and temp limit to the very end

[daring pivot]

yes

[topaz blaze]

do i need to do anything for memory clock

[daring pivot]

you don't have to

but it should be able to handle about +600

[topaz blaze]

how do i change core voltage tho

[daring pivot]

which will help performance

[topaz blaze]

i can't drag the thingy

[daring pivot]

so click the settings icon

unlock voltage control

[topaz blaze]

my card is a gigabyte one btw

[daring pivot]

that's fine

afterburner works with any type of card from any brand

[topaz blaze]

would i change it third party or just leave it as standard msi

[daring pivot]

standard msi is fine

[topaz blaze]

aight

[daring pivot]

now test that game and where your temps are

and if you get crashes, just dial back the overclock a bit

[topaz blaze]

this is correct right

also i changed the memory clock to +600

lookin something like this

[daring pivot]

that's fine

[wanton sparrow]

how easy or hard is it to jump into hardlined water cooling? I'm debating doing water cooling for my next build but only if I go with a certain case. It would likely be two separate loops; one for the CPU and one for the GPU...

[copper patrol]

hardline water cooling is the most involved method

you need to learn how to bend tubes, measure them so theyre the right length, make sure you get all the parts you need like blocks, fittings, tubes, reservoirs, coolant, and all that stuff

soft tube custom loops are much easier

but look worse

also your coolant could cloud because of the plastic

[wanton sparrow]

I'm just trying to justify going with a build that has hardline water cooling since A) i've never done that before, B) It would likely increase the cost of my build by $500, and C) the maintenance involved with keeping it clean and optimal. It would look absolutely sick in the case I would want to put it in, it's just that I don't know if it's worth it

[copper patrol]

hm

id say it isnt worth it

unless you really care about your pc looks

if you wanna do a custom loop, soft line is so much easier

[wanton sparrow]

That's very true. I'm also looking at it from the perspective of how functional the case is; and the one that I want doesn't have the space for a beefy CPU cooler that I've been wanting

[topaz blaze]

custom loop already looks difficult to me lmao

[copper patrol]

uh

soft line tubing is also easier to get fittings on and stuff

you can kinda squish the tube a bit for a better seal

if that makes sense

[wanton sparrow]

That's very true; yes

[copper patrol]

hard line is easier for flow though

like its a more direct path

[wanton sparrow]

and it's cleaner for the blocks too

[topaz blaze]

should i attempt a custom loop for my future build

[copper patrol]

but bending those tubes... so difficult

[topaz blaze]

or should i stick with an AIO

[wanton sparrow]

that's what i'm trying to figure out too @topaz blaze

[copper patrol]

gotta heat em, bend em at the right angle, make sure you measured it right, and hope you dont break it

[topaz blaze]

i mean for my current build i'm using AIO cuz i don't wanna mess anything up

it's also my first ever build too

[wanton sparrow]

It sounds like something that I would definitely want to try at some point, but i feel very hesitant at this point

[topaz blaze]

^

i'll probs do some more research and look at some tutorials

[copper patrol]

custom loop is tricky and expensive

and theres room for error

[topaz blaze]

it looks cool but there's also a risk of damaging your components in case the loop fails

[copper patrol]

personally i wouldnt do it

an AIO is basically the same thing

kinda

a little worse

[topaz blaze]

yea i guess

[copper patrol]

but you get the idea

[topaz blaze]

yeah i do

[copper patrol]

custom loops require maintenance also

oh forgot to mention

[topaz blaze]

like cleaning it out and stuff?

[copper patrol]

if your hard tube loop goes over your ram and you wanna upgrade it, tough luck

[wanton sparrow]

never thought about that tbh

[copper patrol]

gotta drain the loop, take it apart, put it back together, and all that stuff

yep

if you use soft line its a bit easier to get around it

[topaz blaze]

thermaltake water cooled RAM

[copper patrol]

just push it outta ur way

LMAO

that stuff looks great

in design

[topaz blaze]

it does ngl

[copper patrol]

a hard line custom loop with matching brands for all the blocks would be awesome

with rgb

and colored coolant

[topaz blaze]

what if there was RGB coolant

[wanton sparrow]

Plus, water cooling is only good in short bursts rather than running for a whole day... so there's that to keep in mind

[topaz blaze]

🤔

[copper patrol]

eh

you can get a long time on the machine

its not like you can use it for half an hour before it becomes less affective

you can use it for awhile

[topaz blaze]

I want this

[copper patrol]

@topaz blaze i think there are RGB fittings so you can kinda light up the coolant a bit

[topaz blaze]

i'm using a 7700k

[copper patrol]

@sour ridge 9. No e-begging, or selling on this server.

its in the rules

[topaz blaze]

i'd delete that message if i were you tbh

[copper patrol]

before a mod gets in here

https://tenor.com/view/when-your-team-too-good-ban-salt-bae-gif-7580925

lol

[wanton sparrow]

@topaz blaze https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14wlWW57A4

[copper patrol]

see

[topaz blaze]

oh yeah yeah

lol when i first built my PC my dad said that RGB was unnecessary and if i were to add any i'd have to pay for it myself(pretty sure i've said this already tho)

[wanton sparrow]

I think your dad is very reasonable tho

[topaz blaze]

and the funny thing was some components that HAD RGB were less expensive than without it

yeah i can kinda see that

like some mobos

or i could be wrong

idk

[wanton sparrow]

you're likely correct tho

[topaz blaze]

oh wow

[wanton sparrow]

i've seen it where rgb parts are way cheaper

supply and demand i guess

keep the chat clean my friend

[copper patrol]

no profanity please

[topaz blaze]

and the fact that Z270 is discontinued makes finding compatible mobos even more expensive

[clever berry]

[modern pebble]

👌

[clever berry]

now i can

[copper patrol]

ur bad

:)

[clever berry]

the disrespect

[copper patrol]

you were the one who deleted it tho

you said it urself lol

[topaz blaze]

Yo I just joined this group but I was wondering if someone knew like the full expense for water cooling a PC and making a custom loop. This is my first water cooling build as well and my first PC. I looked into special kits and all but I don’t know if that will have everything I need

[copper patrol]

about $500

well

actually

anywhere from like 350 to 500

[clever berry]

depends on the water blocks for cpu and/or gpu and the expensive af fittings.

@plush wren of team thermaltake can help you

[ivory sluice]

watercooling on first pc big leap lol

at what point does liquid cooling become worth it? with SLI? cause i've never had problems over going over 90 degrees at full overclock with just a https://www.amazon.com/Radiator-Advanced-Lighting-Software-compatible/dp/B07BWNWQKJ/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=corsair+liquid+cooling&qid=1560889700&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1

or is hard tube mostly for looks

[copper patrol]

soft tube and hard tube will give you roughly the same performance

[plush wren]

the cost depends on a few things tbh

as a ballpark, I'd say about $4-500 for a CPU loop and $7-800 for CPU/GPU loop

The cost depends on what parts you get, whether you're doing single or dual res/rad setups, and hardtube or softtube

if you are looking to get into custom cooling, Thermaltake has custom cooling kits you can get that have everything bundled for basic CPU cooling loops 😉

[clever berry]

[worldly heath]

A cpu/gpu loop is $800+ from EK.

[lunar fossil]

not if you buy their fluid gaming lineup.

240 mm rad, gpu and cpu block for $240

just be sure not to mix metals.

[topaz blaze]

OK I was planning on doing hard tube. I thought I might as well go all out and do a custom loop for my CPU(Threadripper 1950X) Yeah I looked at EK and they were kinda expensive so I’ll take a look at Thermaltake.

[lunar fossil]

DO NOT MIX METALS

[topaz blaze]

Yeah

I hear Aluminum corrodes but I’ve heard some sub sea engineers say it won’t so I’m not sure anymore😂

[lunar fossil]

well, all metals corrode. it's just a matter as to how long it will take to corrode

[topaz blaze]

Haha yeah I guess

[worldly heath]

I don't see how a single 240mm rad would be enough for a cpu/gpu loop unless you're not overclocking, and if you're not overclocking then why even do a custom loop?

[iron coral]

Speaking of OC, What do you guys think able overclocking ryzen 7 2700x?

[daring pivot]

it's doable

but you won't get huge gains

[spark scarab]

Unless watercooled. Ive seen some specs at 4.8ghz on the ryzen 7 2700x. Thats what i will be using on my next build as a cpu

[iron coral]

Yea i mean ill be overclocking eventually

on a Gigabyte B450

By the time i do that ill water cool it anyway

[warm comet]

I know this was from yesterday, but a 2700x is not going to hit 4.8ghz. Most can can around 4.1. to 4.2ghz on all cores without crazy voltage. good ones can get 4.35-4.4 on all cores.

anything beyond 4.5 would be extreme luck, or extreme cooling

[iron coral]

What if you have a good psu and good vrms and boost the sh*t out of your voltage

[ionic zenith]

actualy you can get it to 4.6 but you have to have a good cooling like a dual 360 loop

[spark scarab]

It was probably on extreme cooling. Im thinking of running a peltier cooler on a block and have my coolant pass through that before going to my cpu

[signal thistle]

Hello everyone, what is a good pump/res combo? I will be cooling cpu and gpu in my custom loop

[ionic zenith]

i did not use extreme cooling just a custom loop with 2 reses and 2 360 rads and lots of fans i did it just to see if it could be done

[tired estuary]

i have a corsair H100 the old one, would it be worth upgradding it to something els? im getting cpu temps of ~60 - 70C with an intel 2700k

[river gorge]

@signal thistle look up EKWB fluid gaming kits.

That is what I run.

minus that gpu block. that is from swiftech

[topaz blaze]

shiny

[signal thistle]

@river gorge lol I actually spent a good 2 hrs on EK’s website after I asked and got everything I need picked and links put in an excel doc

Btw that looks dope

[river gorge]

thanks!

[worldly heath]

@river gorge why is your ram in those slots?

Are you not running in dual channel?

[river gorge]

it is

oh yeah I had pulled two sticks out

lul

[worldly heath]

I see... Got me really confused

[river gorge]

I need to fix it.

shimmy shimmy

I had 4.

[daring pivot]

yeah, can't be single channel

[river gorge]

CAN TOO

runs fine.

[daring pivot]

that negligible loss of performance must be rectified

[river gorge]

funny

I see no difference