#archived-networking | Official Unity Discord | Page 94

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:15 PM

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Players do not send their turns at the same time

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One player will have to wait every turn for updates

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:16 PM

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yeah?

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well

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player 1 send data to server, receive if it pass or not, then send to client 2 the change

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its done in a fraction of second

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:16 PM

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And seeing as a REST API cannot contact a client but a client can contact a server, it would seem that there is no other way for the waiting player to get updates, other than constantly pinging the API until it's told that the turn has ended

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:16 PM

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then player 2 play his turn, send data to server, server say yes or no

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then send to client 1

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you do it by turn like that or go hyper complex and wait the end of battle, both player send result to server, compare if data is equal, and guess who the winner

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:17 PM

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I think we are talking past each other atm

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:17 PM

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im not suer what is with the PING

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you dont have to use ping anywhere

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;p

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get that ping off your head lol

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when you send data to rest api, you can get data back

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no the rest api cannot contact player 2

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but the client that send data to server, can

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thats why the game is p2p, with rest api as server

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alot of turn based game are made like this

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In reality you want to send what player 1 and 2 did only at the end of the game. You can start battle, both player send a message to rest api saying they are in fight, rest api put them both into a container meaning they are fighting, no data, just the name and timestamp
Then both player play the game and send data to each other only. At the end of the game, both player send their combat logs to the rest api, rest api check if both data match the combat, if yes, you know no one cheated, and if one did, the other did too, which mean he clearly let the other win so it doesnt matter, he could have not played during the game and still lose.
Now if you compare both data and one of the player is wrong, you gotta check against the db which one did an illegal move, and make that player lose.
There you got full authority over your game with only a few send to the rest api. All this with p2p

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:29 PM

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@rare grove , sorry there is alot of info in the thread, so I may be repeating others. In general, computer networking works by taking data, serializing it on one computer, transmitting it via protocol and deserializinf on other side. So, how multiplayer works entirely depends on the use case. Because of this, the philosophies and approach come down to authors philosophy and needs and can't be summarized down to "this is the one way". The needs of a TCG game vary from that of a moba, from that of a time trial racing, from that of a battle royal. The library you choose or write will decide architecture and approach. Mirrors philosophy to generic networking is, from what I can tell with my blighted exposure, transport decoupled client server architecture, where client is also server and control is dictated by authority. They use attributes to specify data that needs relayed or in their terms synced. If you read that book on sockets and them come back to mirror as an implementation that integrates unity concepts, I think you'll be well prepared to understand and use mirror and or another library, or write your own. Feel free tonmessage me so we don't annoybthe thread. Cheers.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:33 PM

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@grim violet So here is my understanding of the two approaches.

📎 unknown.png

swift stratus Feb 15, 2021, 5:33 PM

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Greetings, i hope that i am not disrupting the conversation. I am currently having some trouble setting up a relay server for my mirror multiplayer game.

Context: I am trying to make a 2 player co-op game for a game jam project. I have the local network set up for mirror so my current step is to make it work over the internet.
I have joined the mirror server and they pointed me towards this transposer for mirror: https://github.com/Derek-R-S/Light-Reflective-Mirror.
I have created a Google Cloud project with a VM running. I managed to push the server file that existed inside the repository i linked above.

I managed to add all the nessesary files and API's (.Net 3.1 & the server files) and the server seems to be running per accordance to the command console seen here:

📎 unknown.png

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However, Unity prints out that it cant connect to the relay

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📎 unknown.png

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:34 PM

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swift stratus Greetings, i hope that i am not disrupting the conversation. I am currently havi...

Mirror has an official discord server

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You could try there if you want 🙂

swift stratus Feb 15, 2021, 5:34 PM

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I know

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I mentioned this in my message

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:35 PM

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You could go that way using rest api, but thats alot of in and out for not much since its a turn based game

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and if you do that

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i dunnoh

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its weird

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:35 PM

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grim violet You could go that way using rest api, but thats alot of in and out for not much ...

It gives full authority to the server immediately, rather than having to trust that nothing fishy happens between the two players in their P2P session

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:36 PM

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yeah but thats alot of in and out, you want to try to keep that to the floor to have many players

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instead of sending every move, you can send all the move in the end and check it all at once

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thats what im trying to explain

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:37 PM

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I understand that it's a lot of requests but as far as I know REST was also designed with this in mind.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:39 PM

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with that way, player 1 send data to server, server accept, player 1 tell player 2 data has been sent, player 2 sent data to server, receive update, then tell client 1 game can continue

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and that every turn

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with my way, its twice, at beginning and end

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😛

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:39 PM

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It also requires that the two players know about each other programmatically which seems unnecessary.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:40 PM

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?

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:40 PM

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I'll think about it at least.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:40 PM

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game is played just like in your way

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your way work too i mean

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but if it get high amount of player

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you gonna regret

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:41 PM

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Sorry to interrupt gents, im trying to catch up, I think a custom socket solution would be best @dim merlin, I know it's a lot of work. But games are stateful apps usually and forcing that to adhere to stateless request response would be more headache then it's worth. Not to mention the overhead for wrapping game state in http for no real value. This is just my opinion. Rest is great for transactional relationships, but not for relationships that "know about" eachother which is why web sockets are used in conjuction for more state full functionality alot.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:41 PM

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im talking about hundred or thousands

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:41 PM

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If I get a high amount of players, I'd likely have to shift to better server infrastructure and sockets.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:41 PM

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have to get there first

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:41 PM

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weak plinth Sorry to interrupt gents, im trying to catch up, I think a custom socket solutio...

Yeah I had a feeling

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The question just is what kind of frameworks could I use to help this?

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Would I really have to code it from scratch?

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:42 PM

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I bet monogame has some stuff

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It's an xna clone but I bet it was some useful abstractions for game state transfer

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:44 PM

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hm

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I wish there was some sort of starting point I could refer to because jumping into a codebase like that does seem rather daunting >.<

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:44 PM

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https://github.com/lidgren/lidgren-network-gen3

GitHub

lidgren/lidgren-network-gen3

Lidgren Network Library. Contribute to lidgren/lidgren-network-gen3 development by creating an account on GitHub.

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Looks like they use Lindgren.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:45 PM

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Never heard of it

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:45 PM

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Yeah I understand, but, networked games are daunting by default! :b

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Socket programming really isn't that bad in c#

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I do it in c++ at my day job...

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:45 PM

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i did it in perl

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:46 PM

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Ooph

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:46 PM

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I don't doubt that networked games are harder to do, just that I'm not the first to get into this so there must be stuff out there for people like me who is getting into it but aren't seasoned networking veterans yet

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:46 PM

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There are abstractions. Like the one above. But usually network tries to strike a balance of performance a d high level, so it tends to be an expert domain

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Unfortunately

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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Yeah but no one is born an expert..they start somewhere ._.

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Regardless of domain

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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my first network program was a port scanner

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using tcp

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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Same

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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god that was crap

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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I used to be an ethical hacker

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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me too

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lol

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ahh the 90's

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:47 PM

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Haha nice to meet you!

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:48 PM

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When internet was fun

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:48 PM

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I don't know if it was fun back in the 90's...seems like a bit of romanticising 😛

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:48 PM

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Haha, I'm the next generation, I barely remember slow days haha

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Yeah haha

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Omni

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Read this sockets book.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:48 PM

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I grew up during that time and I had internet in my parents house. It was not great tech at the time.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:48 PM

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Its dense

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But great

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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you could tell people to fuck off with your ip shown and no pursuit

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;p

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getting hacked left and right

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it was free for all

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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Anarchy like that sounds great on the surface, when you get to be in power of some bubble. But if you don't, you just get to be a victim instead.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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oh i was victim for a while

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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Not a great deal but for the few

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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https://www.amazon.com/dp/0124660517/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_1D1YGQYKE0F4ZRD6CP1Y

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:49 PM

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thats how i learned

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:50 PM

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weak plinth https://www.amazon.com/dp/0124660517/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_1D1YGQYKE0F4ZRD6CP1...

Thanks, I'll try and look it up

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:50 PM

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first time i installed linux i didnt know about setting passwrod to root, get formated 1 day later

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great time

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:50 PM

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This isn't some "Back in .net -2.4 days..." book right?

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:50 PM

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And I know it's painful, but, be grateful it's not the 90s and your reading a rfc or Berkley sockets api reference in c....

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Haba

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It is, but sockets are timeless

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So ignore that

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:51 PM

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we didnt have link like this back in the day

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had to find urself lol

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:51 PM

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ho boy..

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:51 PM

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I promise

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It looks old

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But the info is the same

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Haha

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:51 PM

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Well I say that because often when it comes to doing things like this, you learn by doing. And if a lot of the practices in this book are ancient because we found better alternatives, it might just make my life that much harder.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:51 PM

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There aren't a ton of books on the subject in c# sadly

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Trust me, sockets programming hasn't changed at all.

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Because it relies on the same osi model that cannot change

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The world runs on it

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:53 PM

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tcp ip and udp back in 90 is the same yeah

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;p

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:53 PM

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App protocols are added, thats the innovation

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM

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making from scratch is hard thought

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lot of things you gotta think of

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and if you never made that before, you wont think about that

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM

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It's true.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM

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you gonna face ton of problem

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM

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Yaeah, but the abstractions 5hat exist require this base knowledge

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Unfortunately

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:55 PM

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better use an already made solution or copy from someone who already made something that is recognized

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at least for starter

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:55 PM

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I'm not suggesting writing your own. But this knowledge will carry you tonunderstanding Lindgren or mirror or insert game object state transfer lib here.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 5:55 PM

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and it wont be everything, just the data transmission protocol, you still have to think all the logic to make the game over that

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:55 PM

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You have to do that anyway, let's not lie :b

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:56 PM

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I mean, I hope you are right.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 5:57 PM

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Well, no matter what you'll be better having learned. But if you insist, just try to read the docs of Lindgren

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https://www.genericgamedev.com/tutorials/lidgren-network-an-introduction-to-networking-in-csharp-games/

GameDev<T>

Paul Scharf

Lidgren.Network - an introduction to networking in C# games

In this introduction to Lidgren.Network, we will look at how to easily establish connections and send simple messages between servers and clients.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 5:59 PM

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I'll check out both

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:00 PM

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What about your plans for server infrastructure rules out mirror?

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Can't be tied to unity for some reason.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:00 PM

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From what I understood, Unity would be needed for both client and server to use Mirror

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That doesn't seem like a good idea

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:01 PM

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Help me understand why. The licensing?

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I mean why that's not a good idea btw, not why it's tied.

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:02 PM

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From what I gather, Unity has a thread count limit of 1200 threads or so. It would also be a lot to run a server through the unity client when you need none of the rendering no?

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:03 PM

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from what i know of mirror, you can have it headless i think

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:04 PM

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Depends on the game if that matters. I would think headless would be an option

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:04 PM

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doesnt really matter if unity is needed, you gotta make your server with something anyway

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:04 PM

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Since their goal is persistent mmmo

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Yeah, I was thinking that.

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I try to avoid running persistent server because I'm cheap

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And a bit old school, I like running ny own game server

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:05 PM

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Here is the exact conversation I had on the mirror discord

📎 unknown.png

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:05 PM

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It's turn based card game?

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:06 PM

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Yes

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:06 PM

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That's actually way simpler to do sockets for that

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But

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If its 2 ppl

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Let them host it

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What's your target platfoem

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:06 PM

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The idea will be a card game that could expand to include thousands.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:06 PM

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Ohhhh

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:06 PM

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Still 1v1

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But yea

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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Spectatos?

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Why 1000s then

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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I need to make sure what I go for can scale :/

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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thousands 1v1?

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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I mean 1000's of concurrent matches for example

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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Ohhh

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Dude

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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so use my idea

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its free!

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;p

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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I just wanna hear multiple opinions

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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Do you need matchmaking?

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Ranking?

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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you gonan end up doing it that way, watch 😛

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:07 PM

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I will be needing that eventually, yes @weak plinth

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:08 PM

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Then just do THAT on server. 1000s is nothing when it's just connecting ppl. Then let them be their connection with unity/mirror

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:08 PM

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For now I need to make an internal version that can be played among the people making the game. Seeing as they are not located in the same place, it should at least have some online capabilities. Thing is, I have read stories of how hard it is to put MP in after the fact, compared to building something in as you go

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:09 PM

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That's true. I still think mirror works here. Let me explain.

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Real quick, whats your target platform

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A droid?

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:09 PM

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For now PC

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:09 PM

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plz dont copy magic the gathering ui

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it suck

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;p

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:10 PM

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I'm not designing that part 😛

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:10 PM

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i like the card game but not the pc game

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lol

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:10 PM

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Haha

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:10 PM

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ok ok 😛

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:10 PM

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So

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You can indeed use rest if you want for this

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Because

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Your server simple keeps lists of online ppl

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It doesn't manage game state

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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and you can scale easily

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compared to any other solution

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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But wouldn't the server still need to be the judge on legal moves?

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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it is

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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Yes, it's just calculated on the client pc

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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It just sounds a lot like "trust the client" .-.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:11 PM

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No

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It's not

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:12 PM

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you dont trust client for anything in a turn based game

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:12 PM

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I know...that's what I just pointed out..

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:12 PM

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the client do the calcul, ask server if calcul is right

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:12 PM

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You're running same logic that you would have written

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It's just on their oc

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Pc

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Bow

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Now,

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If I am misunderstanding, correct me. You are worried they'll disassemble and change the IL/c# and cheat?

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If they themselves are the server?

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:14 PM

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I mean, that is one of the basic concerns right?
But could also be some attempted injection or whatever before a request is sent off.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:14 PM

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it doesnt matter

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if client change data and server check against db and its not right

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you just dont accept it

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you have to make an account with the rest api, get a database, put all the card player own in that, if you loot, server decide of the loot and update db, then send info to client

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just is just holding informations of what he got

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but dont really decide anything

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he do calcul

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but server will do everything

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:15 PM

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So we're talking about card ownership aren't we

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No gameplay cheats

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:16 PM

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if client decide to cheat, you can know from the server and decide what to do, not update db and make him lose

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:17 PM

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I think there are several strategies for this. If it's card ownership, yeah, keep a dB of account info on the "user and matchmaking server"

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:17 PM

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doenst matter if the clients play the match together without asking a single thing from the server, in the end, they send the combats logs to the server, server do a scan of that and check if all the move was possible against the db and tell which client won the game
yes the player can cheat during the match, but still aint gonna win

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now if you really dont want player to be able to cheat during the match no matter what will be the result, you need mirror or something real time like that and not use rest api

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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Yes

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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but is that necessary

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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I really don't like the idea of having a match just going on even though one party clearly cheated before they send off that to a server for verification.

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Seems very risky

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and also just very time consuming for players

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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I understand

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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having full authority with real time data = big server that cost money

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:18 PM

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Yes

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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Assume that server infrastructure will be taken care of

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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Okay

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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This isn't just some solo indie game

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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Then go headless

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Mirror

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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Hello im new

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:19 PM

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so headless mirror server

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p2p mirror clients

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?

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Is that what I'm getting?

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Or should it be sockets?

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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I said hello

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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Mirro = easier.
Sockets = challenging but more control

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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oblique scaffold I said hello

Good for you, wasn't addressing you with my question.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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Hey demonic, sorry

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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weak plinth Mirro = easier. Sockets = challenging but more control

Guess I should have elaborated; Mirror has sockets

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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We're all debating haha

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:20 PM

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dim merlin Good for you, wasn't addressing you with my question.

No need to be rude

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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I wasn't being rude.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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Yes, all network solutions eventually are sockets

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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You cant even welcome new people

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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dim merlin I wasn't being rude.

Yes you are stop lying

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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We were in the middle of something here, stop causing a fuzz dude.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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Text is hard to emphasize feeling

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I'm sure he didn't mean it. Welcome!

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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dim merlin We were in the middle of something here, stop causing a fuzz dude.

Screw this im leaving so annoying go on continue on your stupid convo

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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I didn't mean to be rude it was just stating a matter of fact. Not some personal attack.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:21 PM

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lmao

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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I mean okay, suit yourself.

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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Whoa, guys guys guys.

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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dim merlin I didn't mean to be rude it was just stating a matter of fact. Not some personal...

Your attacking me for no reason

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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that what happen when big brains talks

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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I feel like this guy is trolling us gotta be honest :/

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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dim merlin I feel like this guy is trolling us gotta be honest :/

Im not a troll

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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No, I think he's just upset. It's all good

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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You think I waste my time for trolling

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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All are welcome

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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thats stupid

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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I mean look at his tags. He took like all of them.

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:22 PM

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I hate trolls

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:23 PM

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Oh, I didn't notice

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:23 PM

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dim merlin I mean look at his tags. He took like all of them.

I just wanted the roles

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Ok

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so what

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:23 PM

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Student and Producer, okay.

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Anyway, @weak plinth & @grim violet
Thanks so far at least. Was helpful.

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:23 PM

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dim merlin Anyway, <@456226577798135808> & <@!268576789574582273> Thanks so far at least. ...

And thanks for being toxic and rude towards me

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😒

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:23 PM

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If that was toxic towards you, I don't think you've experienced toxic man :/

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:24 PM

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So you'll have xomplete control if you roll your own with bare sockets and no concerns regarding needing unity. But, at the cost of engineering time and money

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:24 PM

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dim merlin If that was toxic towards you, I don't think you've experienced toxic man :/

Well you couldnt be bothered to even say hi not like you will die from losing your convo

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:24 PM

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weak plinth So you'll have xomplete control if you roll your own with bare sockets and no co...

Yeah that's true. If I can use mirror for this it would save time and effort I might not have to spend.

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

General is dead

#

so

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

oblique scaffold Well you couldnt be bothered to even say hi not like you will die from losing yo...

Okay, consider this:
You came into a new room, people were discussing, and then you just walk up to strangers and demand they acknowledge your existence. Does that seem reasonable to you?

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

Or another abstraction. There might be some out there. Check out the one I mentioned and I'll keep an eye out

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

weak plinth Or another abstraction. There might be some out there. Check out the one I menti...

Yeah I'm definitely checking that one too

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

dim merlin Okay, consider this: You came into a new room, people were discussing, and then ...

No then how will I talk

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

Demonic, were sorry

#

It's all goos

oblique scaffold Feb 15, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

I cant interrupt people

#

Well I dont even know the channels

#

Not like I was here for ten years

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:28 PM

#

So logistics wise it would be something like:
Mirror client 2 mirror client
Mirror headless server

Mirror has sockets already so that should be okay I think.

#

Might make things easier.

#

I guess I should make separate setups for querying the database

#

REST could probably be useful for that

#

So internally a piece of software uses REST as the db interface

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:30 PM

#

what do you mean by "mirror has sockets already"

#

all library does

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:31 PM

#

It means I don't have to make the sockets myself...

#

I would think that's obvious.

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:34 PM

#

well a socket is just a name meaning a connection to an ip and port, any library will do it

#

can your library talk to a rest api?

#

thats a different thing

#

i dont know if mirror do, i know photon do with webrpc

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:34 PM

#

Look, it's a semantic argument at this point. Let's just say that; If I can use Mirror it would cut down on a lot of time I don't have to spend reinventing the wheel.

#

=_=

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:34 PM

#

the functionality behind is really what you looking for

#

and you wont know before testing it

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 6:36 PM

#

I get the point. I think the summation is:

Network lib not attached to unitu = higher engineering cost, learning cost, engineer hiring cost, more control.

Role your own = most control, most expensive all categories.

Unity integrated = cheapest, least control

grim violet Feb 15, 2021, 6:37 PM

#

just thinking mirror is realtime api with authoritative server, there no use for rest api, i dont believe they have that

#

you could always use unitywebrequest to talk to your data server rest api but that kinda break the point of using mirror

#

should just take both and take the time to test them

dim merlin Feb 15, 2021, 6:40 PM

#

I'd just use an internal REST API as the database interface for things like my server

#

The abstraction layer between my database and my game server

weak plinth Feb 15, 2021, 10:36 PM

#

Can anyone help me with a game?

drifting turtle Feb 15, 2021, 10:54 PM

#

I want to implement peer to peer networking for a fighting game, but with faked latency, I have read that unet is being deprecated and I am worried that it wont be able to support the features I need (lockstep, rollback) during the time of the project. Is there an alternative which is reliable or is unet still considered reliable?

jade glacier Feb 16, 2021, 12:28 AM

#

Unet didn't have any of those features to start with, so no harm using another library. @drifting turtle

verbal lodge Feb 16, 2021, 8:35 AM

#

drifting turtle I want to implement peer to peer networking for a fighting game, but with faked ...

Unet is deprecated so I'd not recommend using it. Right now we don't have a networking solution which supports deterministic lockstep/rollback so you might want to look for a third party solution instead. We are working on a new networking library to replace Unet called the MLAPI but we are still in early development and haven't released a package yet.

gleaming prawn Feb 16, 2021, 9:39 AM

#

And it (MLAPI) will also NOT support deterministic predict/rollback AFAIK, which is what fighting games use (and you mentioned specifically).

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 10:46 AM

#

dim merlin The abstraction layer between my database and my game server

Only read like 25% of the convo

#

But for a card game, just use plain sockets

#

There's hardly anything to sync, there's hardly anything real-time

#

It'll actually be scalable, and you have 100% free choice over what server architecture you use.

versed rock Feb 16, 2021, 11:13 AM

#

Hi guys, i want to create a Card game, i search for a relay server for the online 1vs1 and save the user data in online database, any idea?

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 12:19 PM

#

Make that relay server not just relay, but authoritative

#

Have that server communicate the results of the 1v1 games with a database

#

You have pretty much free choice in database and server architecture, since it doesn't need to be, and imo shouldn't be a Unity server

versed rock Feb 16, 2021, 12:21 PM

#

i mean, any project or app that allow that? i mean... for example Photon is a relay server

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 12:22 PM

#

Make it yourself, websockets or tcp sockets

#

It's easy enough with something like a card-game

versed rock Feb 16, 2021, 12:24 PM

#

i think i'm going to try with websockets

#

but any project in github for reference?

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 12:26 PM

#

Not that I know of. But there should be plenty of resources available on something so basic

#

I suggest to look for 100% self made games

versed rock Feb 16, 2021, 12:26 PM

#

i don't know for sync the game state haha

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 12:26 PM

#

There's not much to sync in a card game, assuming you don't have a simulation

versed rock Feb 16, 2021, 12:27 PM

#

yeah, that's true

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 12:27 PM

#

Much like a chess game, nothing happens to the game state

#

Only when someone makes an input, and then nothing happens again

#

For a chess game I made, I only send the input to the server

#

Validate the input, and forward it to the client if it's correct

#

Otherwise, I rollback the client that sent a faulty input

#

@versed rock

void SGameHost::onRemoteInput(sf::Packet& packet)
{
    ChessMove newMove;
    newMove.netSerialize(packet, false);

    if (packet && inputMove(newMove, true, true)) {
        m_server->sendToClients(packet, m_observers);
    }
    else
    {
        sf::Packet snapshot;
        snapshot << PacketType::Snapshot;

        m_boardManager->serializeBoard(snapshot, true);
        m_server->sendToClient(snapshot, m_playerID);
    }
}

#

That's pretty much the entire authoritative part I have, and I suspect it's not going to differ much from what you are planning to make

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:27 PM

#

Anyone here good with php that can help me?

#

Right now i have a ton of scripts that are super disorginised and i want some advice making a orginization scheme

#

📎 unknown.png

#

[GetDate] A testing script that returns the current data
[getOnlineUsers] The server client calls this script with the server key and it returns a list of all the user-ID's in the online database
[getStats] Used by the discord bot to generate the statistics
[getUser] Used by the bot to get the username of someone given their discord uuid
[getUsers] Old script
[linkUser] Used by the bot to link a user-ID to a Discord uuid. given a username and password and a discord-ID
[login] Used by any client. given a username and password it returns the user-ID associated with that account and adds that user to the online list. it also generates a unique APIToken that is valid while the user is online. the user uses that APIToken to validate themselves in the future.
[logout] given an APIToken it logouts a user voiding the token and removing a user from the online database
[registerUser] given a username and password it registers a user into the database and returns the userID
[sql] given a SQL query it runs the query and returns the result (Disabled lmao)
[getUserInfo] given a userID it returns all public info about that user. currently just the username and the users color

#

And i want to try to make it so i dont have to move anything around in the future cause every time i restructure i have to change all refrences in the code

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:34 PM

#

you should include one reference PHP file on the top of your child files to get all the values/references they need @safe lynx

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:35 PM

#

could you elaborate a little more i dont fully understand

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:35 PM

#

https://www.php.net/manual/de/function.include.php

#

🙂 that simple 🙂

#

Oh its german, my bad

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:35 PM

#

lol i saw

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:35 PM

#

https://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include.php

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:36 PM

#

hmm i dont see how that could help

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:36 PM

#

I mean, you have a lot of small files, whats your issue with them. Do you want one big chunk of file instead?

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:37 PM

#

well each small file is a unique function that gets called for diffrent reasons for diffrent users

#

some functions requires APITokens

#

some functions are server/localhost access only

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:38 PM

#

safe lynx [GetDate] A testing script that returns the current data [getOnlineUsers] The se...

basic explination

#

each client in unity accesses them via a URL

#

so for a client to login they do a POST request to serverurl/app/login.php with paramerters username,password and it returns the userID and a unique APIToken used for further accesses

#

i just dont know how i should go about making it a little more consise for myself to handle

#

like structuring them in folders or concatinating scripts

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:41 PM

#

Oh, well, I guess there is no like best thing to do. You could of course just order them with get / post or functions and data storing. more like personal preference than the way to go.

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

i suppose but it feels kinda like something thats been standerdizes in the past

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

I would maybe try to group them for data, user, and server stuff. Just my 2 cents here on first thought

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

like coding conventions

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

Lets take my headless CMS for example. I am just using API endpoints structured to their functions. One is for sending email with specific content asked by the user, another one gets me my data out of the CMS to json. So I have one function in those endpoints and they are ordered in their folder. But as your functions are not really doing some close to same thing, it would be just weird extra level to have one folder for one script.

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:44 PM

#

interesting...

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:44 PM

#

I would just keep the fileNaming the same, so GetDate should be getDate, but thats what I see now

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:45 PM

#

i suppose. im also planning on making this a website aswell

#

having a front end cause the structure is there

#

currently any error or denied access request just redirects to an index.html page

#

http://ceasevr.duckdns.org

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:46 PM

#

Is this some hobby thing or client work?

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:46 PM

#

hobby

#

im makin a game

#

and needed a backend

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:46 PM

#

Oh alrighty, yeah, it sounds like your files grow with your development, right 😉

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:46 PM

#

yep

#

i just wanted to get a structre down as early as possible

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:47 PM

#

So maybe just get pen and paper, write down what you need, you'll find your strcuture best suited for you there. 🙂

#

Like, what endpoints do you have, what data will be transported to where, and so on

#

Maybe you do not need to write your on php sign and register and what not if you are using a CMS already. Headless CMS is a great way to just work with data

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:48 PM

#

probably
(Server) for serverside only functions
(Authencation) what you use to login
(UserOnly) what you use to make general communication it also requires an api token

#

whats that?

#

im using a MYSQL database for the backend storage

#

and the php scripts to interface with them

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

So you actually build your own little headless cms there, without backend interface obviously. And yeah, I like your structure there, makes sense to me. 🙂

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:53 PM

#

well theres kinda backend interface i think. im also creating a custom unity instance called CeaseServer that will do the bulk of serverSide code

#

it has a compleatly private APIKey that it used to access the server only scripts

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:53 PM

#

Nice, I like your setup there 🙂

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:53 PM

#

it runs on the same computer as the Database so it accesses it via localhost

#

thanks!

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

You wanna tell what your games about or is it secret right now ? 🙂

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

nah its compleatly open

#

its gonna be a VR multiplayer dungeon crawler

#

ive been working on a desktop mode for it aswell

#

ive been working on the backend for a while now. i got an account login system with username storage personalized names

#

been working with photon realtime and photon chat for the P2P stuff

elfin pecan Feb 16, 2021, 1:56 PM

#

safe lynx its gonna be a VR multiplayer dungeon crawler

Sounds like fun

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:57 PM

#

ye its been intresting learning how to code for VR from scratch

#

and learn how to code networking from scratch

lunar plinth Feb 16, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

i'm trying to make a game using photon pun 2 and i have this script that doesn't work ``` public override void OnPlayerEnteredRoom(Player newPlayer)
{
Debug.Log(newPlayer.NickName);

    if (PhotonNetwork.IsMasterClient)
    {
        GameObject playerReadyObjectInst;
        playerReadyObjectInst = PhotonNetwork.Instantiate("playerReadyObject", Vector3.zero, Quaternion.identity);
        playerReadyObjectInst.GetComponent<PhotonView>().TransferOwnership(newPlayer);
        photonView.RPC("parentObject", RpcTarget.All, playerReadyObjectInst.GetComponent<PhotonView>().ViewID);
    }
}``` it feels like the problem is that it doesn't get called because i don't even get a log in the console.

rich narwhal Feb 16, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

does anyone know why on one machine the collider works but the other a shot goes right through it, i know its not going through the network i just dont know how to fix it PUN

ornate zinc Feb 16, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

safe lynx ye its been intresting learning how to code for VR from scratch

When can we test it! 🙂

safe lynx Feb 16, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

ornate zinc When can we test it! 🙂

Its open beta/alpha playtest

#

I can invite you to the server

elfin pecan Feb 16, 2021, 2:00 PM

#

I'll take a look

frank breach Feb 16, 2021, 3:10 PM

#

anyone have idea how to use protobuf in unity?

#

or maybe can anyone help me with this error?

📎 unknown.png

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 3:21 PM

#

I have a thread that calls socket.receive in an infinite loop.

When i set its exit flag to true from another thread not only the thread doesn't quit (obv its stuck awaiting the receive), but it causes a crash.

is there any way to gracefully close this thread, besides adding a timeout for the receive?

#

You should have a timeout for the receive

#

Unless you have some kind of handle that stops receiving

#

And why would it cause a crash?

#

thats some unrelated, i guess unity can't abort a thread when its stuck

#

ill add a canceltoken see if it fixes it

#

nope, apparently that's not the only thing that causes the thread to hang

#

i think i found it but....

#

an await will not yield if the called method returns null?????

#

is this true or am i tripping

elfin pecan Feb 16, 2021, 3:56 PM

#

I haven't done that much async stuff but it's easy to get lost.
Are you doing any error handling on a return of null? Is it timing out and returning null or is it returning null and an error code?

weak plinth Feb 16, 2021, 5:26 PM

#

Don't use the async functions.

#

Just call receive and/or poll, it's much cheaper

#

Just receive for 100-1000ms at a time in a while(isrunning)

graceful zephyr Feb 16, 2021, 7:46 PM

#

Async is 100% useless for game networking

elfin pecan Feb 16, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

Not looking at the network stack, what would be the best way to send updates from client to server then server to other clients?
I'm thinking of a VTT.
Token A moves from x1, y1 to x2, y2. That gets pushed from client to server then pulled to each client.
My thought was to push a serialized object to the server then have the other clients check for updates which would include character movements and other data.

#

Like, you last connected 2 minutes ago, here are all the token updates since then.

floral turtle Feb 16, 2021, 10:35 PM

#

@elfin pecan is this for real time? If you don't need real time responsiveness, you could look into something like Firebase

#

it's fairly easy to get started, essentially a JSON database where you can subscribe to changed events etc

elfin pecan Feb 16, 2021, 10:38 PM

#

Timing isn't strict. I'm thinking of a 3d version of Roll20 or Foundry VTT.

slim ridge Feb 16, 2021, 11:30 PM

#

dont let clients push anything but normalized input

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:06 AM

#

So for my game, the client's car's wheel rotation should match the server car's wheel rotation right?

#

and just have it do a rotation lerp?

#

^ For viewing other players, not when the player is predicting the car movement

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:08 AM

#

i wouldnt sync wheel rotation, that should happen auto when car move

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:08 AM

#

yeah but the wheels only rotate when force is properly applied to the rigidbody. That won't happen when the updates come in from the server

#

it's just going to lerp the car to the correct position

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:09 AM

#

you are using physic on a client to move rigidbody and wheel turn by itself then other client you use lerp on position?

#

that sound wrong

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:09 AM

#

correct

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:09 AM

#

you should use physic too

#

not lerp position

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:10 AM

#

It does use physics, when the player is piloting it

#

but when the player is out of it, and someone else is controlling it

#

then player 1 only makes it lerp

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:10 AM

#

yeah thats not how its supose to be i think

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:10 AM

#

hmm

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:10 AM

#

you gotta move it with physic too

#

i might be wrong but it sound more logical

#

than trying to sync all part of the vehicle

#

it could be a way too i mean if you are in the air and want to turn your backwheel while pressing pedal and want other to see that specific effect yeah

#

you gotta do it that way i guess

#

just physic should work too actually

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:14 AM

#

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm saying. So player 1 is piloting the car, and player 2 is standing beside the car, not inside of it. Player 1 predicts the car movement on his end with physics and does reconciliation checks and all that stuff. Player 2 only receives information about the car's position every 20ms

#

So if player 2 tried to move the car with physics, I don't know if that would work

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:14 AM

#

why not?

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:15 AM

#

Well he'd have to receive a buffer of physics inputs right?

#

to apply

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:16 AM

#

you just push velocity and apply it i guess, there probably some math i never did it myself

#

im using photon and it calculate it under the hood but im not award of the math they use

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:17 AM

#

well the car moves with physics entirely on the server's end

#

It's just getting the client to replicate it properly

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:17 AM

#

but your wheel and all that work with physic doesnt work properly

#

just sending velocity wouuld make all that work

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:17 AM

#

how wouldn't it work?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:17 AM

#

plus moving the car

#

well you said you want to sync the wheel?

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:18 AM

#

on the client's end yes

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:18 AM

#

arent those wheel turning when you apply velocity to the rigidbody of the car?

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:18 AM

#

yes, but when I send the car's position, the client makes the car lerp to that position

#

lerp the wheel rotation

#

so it looks like its moving while the car is moving right?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:18 AM

#

why not just apply velocity?

#

and make it all in one?

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:19 AM

#

trying to wrap my head around this

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:33 AM

#

https://gafferongames.com/post/deterministic_lockstep/ there some good read on that

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:35 AM

#

yeah I just don't know if moving cars with physics is the right thing to do, because my players also move with physics and I just lerp the positions

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:36 AM

#

if a car hit another car and there an impact, how would you know how much velocity to apply to the impact

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:36 AM

#

well the server handles that right?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:37 AM

#

kk ur server doing all the work for the calculations

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:37 AM

#

yeah

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:38 AM

#

then yeah i guess you gotta lerp everything like you doing

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:38 AM

#

I see what you're saying witht the collisions though, car crashes probably wont be smooth on the clientside

#

since it has to wait for the server to recalculate and give the right positions after the collisions

dusky wedge Feb 17, 2021, 12:38 AM

#

Hello everyone, I'm watching this playlist to learn someone Unity Networking but the videos are using the Multiplayer HLAPI and I saw that Unity will remove it so I don't really want to learn it. Does anyone have any other videos I can watch to learn Unity Networking
here is the playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK57qdq_lak&list=PLPV2KyIb3jR5PhGqsO7G4PsbEC_Al-kPZ&index=1&ab_channel=Brackeys

YouTube

Brackeys

Making a Multiplayer FPS in Unity (EP. 1) - uNet Tutorial

In this video we set up our Player and begin moving him around.

● Download cool Weapons: http://devassets.com/assets/modern-weapons/

● Developer Forum: http://forum.brackeys.com/
● Download project (GitHub): http://bit.ly/1JOvQ61

····················································································

Learn how to make a multipla...

▶ Play video

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:39 AM

#

its also alot of calcul for server

#

imt not sure how many people you want to handle

#

but it wont be that much

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:39 AM

#

well it has to be done on the server regardless, since it's authoritative

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:40 AM

#

yeah but id imagine if your server give a start point and just take input from that, you can still have authority on stuff

#

with physic calculated on each client instead

#

i guess it depend of physic engine like the article i shown saying at begining of the read

#

i dont know about physx

#

how it work or anything

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:43 AM

#

Isn't step 1 of networking to never trust the client?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 12:43 AM

#

you dont

#

but you dont have to control everything on his screen too, server hold info of wher ethings are at and push that to everyone, if one client decide to cheat something for a sec, next update will fix it

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 12:44 AM

#

alright

#

@jade glacier I'd like your opinion too whenever you get on, before I start this complicated module for my game

jade glacier Feb 17, 2021, 1:07 AM

#

Way too much for me to read back through

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM

#

@jade glacier So essentially every 20ms, server sends a list of all entities and their positions/rotations including the cars

#

when the client receives this, he just lerps the position/rotation of the cars driven by other players right?

#

Clients driving cars are predicted. so I don't know if that would make car crashes look weird or not

#

I could be wrong, but in Rust, whenever you crash into another car on the clientside, the collision happens, and then a quarter of a second later, the car you just collided with, will actually move. So I don't think they do crash predictions. Could just be a figment of my imagination though

jade glacier Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 AM

#

The predicted cars will exist in the future, so there is always some weirdness there you have to account for.

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 AM

#

alright

#

Would it help to put rigidbodies on ALL cars, even ones not currently being predicted?

#

So the player has SOME feedback of real-time crashes?

#

And lastly, the non-predicted cars get the wheel rotation from the server right? Since they're just being lerped and don't move with physics on the client?

slow monolith Feb 17, 2021, 3:40 AM

#

but then I run into the problem where if a car hits a car that a user is currently predicting, it's going to be weird since the non predicted client cars don't move with physics.

#

@gleaming prawn Any thoughts?

#

The part that I'm stuck on is just determining if other player's (non predicted) cars should be moving with lerp transforms or through physics. Now that I really think about it, the cars all SHOULD be updated through physics right?

valid hawk Feb 17, 2021, 3:50 AM

#

Hello would anyone be kind to assist me with echoing mysqli results back to unity with json objects?

#

I'm not sure how I can echo multiple responses from a POST request with PHP

#

Should I echo multiple json objects > work on them or make a single json objects with all query results?

ornate zinc Feb 17, 2021, 10:07 AM

#

valid hawk 2. Should I echo multiple json objects > work on them or make a single json obje...

Not sure what your backend is, i am using a headless cms, but kind of the same, I am adding up queries and combine them into one single json file getting back to Unity

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 10:11 AM

#

valid hawk 1. I'm not sure how I can echo multiple responses from a POST request with PHP

You don't

#

You are designing something poorly if you have to send out multiple separate JSONs

#

Use a DTO for something like this

#

It'll be easier to send and also easier to process on the receiving end

ornate zinc Feb 17, 2021, 11:08 AM

#

weak plinth Use a DTO for something like this

Agreed, just get an endpoint that fetches your stuff and output what you need

paper stone Feb 17, 2021, 11:39 AM

#

Hello all, I'm a little confused by concept of Relay Server and Dedicated Server (Authoritative). Is the difference between them is based on their set of functionalities?

As far as I understood:
Dedicated Server - used to process incoming packets from clients directly or using Relay server which is a proxy between Client and Dedicated Server. It also handle additional server-side logic like specific systems defined by user.
Relay Server - used to send packets back and forth between two destinations, can be used for a pseudo-P2P solution. Its Sending packets and can use packets optimization techniques.

Would be glad if someone would be so kind to let me know if I have the right idea. Thanks!

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 11:41 AM

#

A relay is nothing more than a post office-like server

#

It's usually used for two clients to communicate with each other, where one client acts as the server(host)

paper stone Feb 17, 2021, 11:42 AM

#

weak plinth It's usually used for two clients to communicate with each other, where one clie...

Host Client -> Relay Server <- Client

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 11:42 AM

#

A dedicated server can be as simple as a client host running headless, which in some games is exactly what it is

#

"dedicated" means it's only purpose is to run a server, not act as a client where a player can play through

#

Authoritative means that the server (or whatever is authoritative in this case) decides the final outcome of the game.

paper stone Feb 17, 2021, 11:43 AM

#

Yeah, I was only confused with Relay meaning since i've not remember using it

#

Alright, @weak plinth thank you!

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 1:21 PM

#

If you just wanna play around with networked games, Photon PUN is a pretty fun way to get into it.

#

They provide you a relay for upto 20 players for free, allowing play without portforwarding.

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:37 PM

#

What are the best ways to store the client data in multiplayer?

#

I thought about creating a class specifically for this purpose, but that feels stupid

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 1:38 PM

#

I don't think that's terribly uncommon even for singleplayer 😄

#

Oh you mean all the data for the client? For some reason thought it to be some sort of player data.

ornate zinc Feb 17, 2021, 1:40 PM

#

What is the client data tho?

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:41 PM

#

@weak plinth Regardless of playing with people in your own country or not, you probably need to do port forwarding for any other computer outside of your house to connect to you (unless you use something like PUN)

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:41 PM

#

by client data I mean ID and whatever stuff that cannot be handled effectively via server, such as ammo counting

#

with limits

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

It has a free tier

#

I think up till 20 CCU

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

shut yarrow <@456226577798135808> Regardless of playing with people in your own country or n...

Relay servers are a thing (PUN is one, yes)
NAT Punchthrough
UpNp
STUN

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

I mean CCU

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:42 PM

#

@weak plinth isn't that what I said why you mention me 😛

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

That's not what you said

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

Number of clients that can connect at the same time to the server

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

Concurrent users

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

NAT punchthrough and stun are not port forwarding

#

And UpNp is implicit, temporary port forwarding that the user doesn't have to do

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:43 PM

#

that means 20 users can join at the same moment

#

and yes, it is the limit for free PUN

#

you don't

#

photon does this for ya

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:44 PM

#

Why overcomplicate things, nobody is going to use NAT punchthrough probably (it'll still require a server)

#

That's why I said PUN

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:44 PM

#

@weak plinth you operate on your application remotely

#

no bandwidth goes through your network

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:45 PM

#

No, you said "you probably need to do port forwarding for any other computer outside of your house to connect to you"
Which just isn't true

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:45 PM

#

Photon PUN

#

it's just PUN

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:45 PM

#

Did you miss the part where I said (unless you use something like PUN)

#

You argue for the sake of arguing

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:46 PM

#

Pun is a relay, that has nothing to do with nat punchthrough or stun

#

There's not port forwarding or pun either/or

#

There's other options...

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:47 PM

#

I mean you CAN host the Photon server by yourself

#

but in most cases people choose the photon cloud to do all the job

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:48 PM

#

@weak plinth Unity themselves recommend (and it's used in practice as well), is to first attempt UpNp for the host

#

If that doesn't work, STUN is the second best option

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:48 PM

#

If you want more flexibility then consider renting a VPS for a couple bucks per month, then you can run any server you like without port forwarding (your clients just connect to this machine somewhere in a datacenter)

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 1:48 PM

#

If that doesn't work, you'll need a relay

#

Most home-routers have UpNp enabled

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:49 PM

#

shut yarrow If you want more flexibility then consider renting a VPS for a couple bucks per ...

For Photon it is only worth if the server requires full authority

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:50 PM

#

Photon costs ridiculous amounts of money

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:50 PM

#

Surely

#

But you still have to have a licence for a self-hosted server

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:50 PM

#

For photon yes

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

Thread is about the PUN, so I didn't mention alternatives

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

Well he asked about options to not port forward, so PUN might be the best option especially for beginner

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

I agree

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

And he can try out for free

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

Yea it's worth considering the context

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:51 PM

#

Photon is very easy to operate

#

especially PUN and Bolt

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:52 PM

#

20 I believe

#

Last time I checked

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:52 PM

#

shut yarrow 20 I believe

Still remains the same

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:53 PM

#

Should be sufficient for testing

#

People with deep pockets

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

Large projects

#

with monetisation

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

2000 is nothing really for a serious multiplayer game

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

^

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 1:54 PM

#

under 2k is not serious?

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

But here is the joke of it. You could have those 2k users on a machine that costs you 20 bucks a month maybe, with photon you pay way more than that

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

per app

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

2k user on a machine?

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

20 CCU is for one application on your photon account

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

what kinda machine is that

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

No, 20 total players online at the same time

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:55 PM

#

@grim violet I wasn't implying under 2k isn't serious, just saying 2k isn't something strange if you have popular game

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:56 PM

#

spring crane No, 20 total players online at the same time

It's not per app?

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:56 PM

#

No

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 1:56 PM

#

in total

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:57 PM

#

shut yarrow <@!268576789574582273> I wasn't implying under 2k isn't serious, just saying 2k ...

WoT has usually 20k people on EU1 all the time for example

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:57 PM

#

Technically with PUN there's no concept of 'servers', instead you can have multiple rooms with max 20 players across all of them

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 1:57 PM

#

@weak plinth Not per server

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:57 PM

#

It is, but consider when you go over that you start paying considerable amounts of money that you might not necessarily earn already with your game

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

to which sentence is that a reference to?

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

To the 20 players is good

#

It is for testing

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

I only find it useful for testing imo

#

it's very low

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 1:58 PM

#

considerable amounts of money
This is relative

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 1:59 PM

#

Maybe so but in absolute terms you pay a lot more than other solutions with your own hosting

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 1:59 PM

#

that's what I'm saying

#

It's not...:)

#

people gets confused by CCU...

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 2:00 PM

#

Photon has it's other limits as well, so it's worth adding those to the total cost

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:00 PM

#

CCU means simultaneous. To get something like 100 CCU (which is offered as a one-time payment for a year) you need around 40000 players in total in the game

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:00 PM

#

frosty coral Photon has it's other limits as well, so it's worth adding those to the total co...

the msg limits are more suggestions due to the client performance

#

not a hard-cap

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 2:01 PM

#

gleaming prawn the msg limits are more suggestions due to the client performance

I mean the nature of the Photon itself

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:01 PM

#

PUN, sure.

#

not all photons are equal

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 2:01 PM

#

Quantum is ignorable due to it's availability

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:01 PM

#

For a hobby project yes

#

Bolt is same pricing as PUN in that matter though

frosty coral Feb 17, 2021, 2:02 PM

#

I always wondered which Photon product can spawn NPC via server side

#

to not trust clients

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:02 PM

#

Bolt by default.

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:02 PM

#

I'm not up to date with current photon products but in the past I think it was Photon Server

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:03 PM

#

or custom server logic (server plugins) with photon realtime

#

or quantum which is deterministic (so not possible to do usual cheating)

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:03 PM

#

i do spawn on server with pun

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:03 PM

#

or the new photon fusion

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:03 PM

#

All the options are confusing to me tbh

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

Multiplayer is not a one-solution-fits-all

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

That's true

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

We're streamlining a few things

#

Photon Fusion will eventually replace both PUN and Bolt

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

When can Fusion no longer be ignored due to availability? 🤓

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

(although we'll still support both for existing customers, of course)

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

i hope so

#

lol

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

Ah now it makes sense you preach for your own choir 😂 👍

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:04 PM

#

spring crane When can Fusion no longer be ignored due to availability? 🤓

Fusion is expected to go on public beta before summer AFAIK

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:05 PM

#

shut yarrow Ah now it makes sense you preach for your own choir 😂 👍

Everybody with more than 2 days here knows I work for Exit Games

#

no

#

port forward is only necessary for mlapi, mirror, etc

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:05 PM

#

It's fine I get it, I visit here every now and then

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:06 PM

#

But notice PUN2 is a totally different thing than doing client-server multiplayer

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 2:06 PM

#

Nice. Looking to remake some older PUN projects

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:07 PM

#

port forward is a bit old and unsafe TBH

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:07 PM

#

Inb4 UpNp works just fine on your router, because he didn't turn it off

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:07 PM

#

it's more common to use STUN punch nowadays

#

ItÄs what steam networking does, for example

#

same for upnp

#

it's something you can not rely on...

#

Sure, if it works from your machine and that is ALL you need, fine

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:08 PM

#

Wouldn't you still need a server to establish an initial connection?

#

That's how I understood NAT punchthrough to work for example

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:08 PM

#

A STUN server, yes

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:08 PM

#

But most people develop games to be available for players, in that case neither port-forward nor upnp are really a good solution (punch is + relay is more consistent)

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:08 PM

#

weak plinth A STUN server, yes

not only the STUN server

#

the STUN server gives you reflexive addresses only... YOu need a reliable way to exchange these addresses between the machines, so they can attempt the punch, eztc

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:09 PM

#

@weak plinth register for a PUN account you can start in minutes

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:09 PM

#

@weak plinth just use pun or bolt then... or use mirror and mlapi on LAN only (no internet) or host a dedicated server with them

#

@weak plinth you need to do this signaling (exchange the reflexive addresses and coordinate the punch process)

#

it's not only a STUN server, that's just 1/3 of what you need

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:11 PM

#

Somehow I still fail to see the big benefit of still needing a server and then exposing clients to eachother, like how can that be considered safe. The only real benefit I can think of is very low bandwidth consumption for the server that does the interconnecting

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:11 PM

#

A complete solution that uses punch (like steam, or bolt, or nintendo PIA, or PSN, etc) have 3 pieces:
A) a reliable server to coordinate the process
B) STUN server for reflexive addresses (could even use public ones from google)
C) a Relay as fallback (punch only works 85-90% of the time)

#

You can sure combine A and C in the same server

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:12 PM

#

shut yarrow Somehow I still fail to see the big benefit of still needing a server and then e...

there are 2 benefits:

it's faster connection for the players, there's a big chance their are closer to each other than going through a 3rd hop (server)
if it's you hosting these servers, you save resources in them

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:13 PM

#

Option C bumps up the server requirements by a lot

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:13 PM

#

C is mandatory if you are serious about your game

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:13 PM

#

Of course

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:13 PM

#

Maybe you guys are all young, but let me tell you a story about Unity and multiplayer

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:13 PM

#

Alright understood although just the security aspect still weighs heavy on me

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:14 PM

#

Back in the days, when Unity first launched UN (old API they built on top of raknet), they offered a master server thing for doign matchmaking, and it included all of the above except C (no relay fallback)

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:15 PM

#

I remember UN but back then no idea how any of networking works

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:15 PM

#

It was a big failure, people tried to launch games with it, and caused rages on players because connections would not be established in 15-20% of the cases (I have a friend who released one of these games with Paradox)

#

PUN (the most popular photon product) was developed as an answer to that... Very similar API and concepts, but worked every single time (because of the reliable relay servers)

#

Not arguing PUN is the best way to do multiplayer

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:16 PM

#

First time I started with Unity, PUN was already a thing

#

Which was like 6 years ago somewhere

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:16 PM

#

Just saying a lot of its success was because it worked reliably and it was super easy to use

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:16 PM

#

Well it definitely covered a big hole Unity left open

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:16 PM

#

It still does

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:17 PM

#

My point is this:

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:17 PM

#

Yeah I'm not waiting for Unity to do it better

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:17 PM

#

talking about punch/upnp/port-forward in 2021 WITHOUT a relay fallback is like repeating the same primary mistake unity did

#

If you are thinking about RELEASING a game for others to play... THis is not an option..

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:17 PM

#

I understand and I agree

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:17 PM

#

That's all

#

Everybody have choices, several APIs, etc

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:18 PM

#

Now the question is, does Stream do these things for you through their API?

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:18 PM

#

Steam does only the basic transport (so it's not really a netcode API)

#

But it does ABC, yes

#

point is, it's only for games on Steam, so not for consoles, not for mobile, etc

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:19 PM

#

I mean, is there an option to roll your own netcode and use steam for ABC

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:19 PM

#

I think Epic is offereing something similar

#

Playfab has their own relay

#

YOu have Normcore... there are many many offerings in the basic-transport-layer tier...

#

Many can be integrated into Mirror or MLAPI (if they are not yet)

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 PM

#

tryed to email them normcore never got an anwser

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 PM

#

Ours are just some of the offerings

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 PM

#

To get info about the server hour thing or whatever it was? 😄

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 PM

#

yeah

#

room thingy

#

1000+ hour a room i think

#

or some weird stuff

#

i even remailed after a week

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 PM

#

Room hours, yea

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 PM

#

still no anwser

#

sound shady

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 PM

#

AFAIK they are offering legit services... But I can't answer for them of course

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:22 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

#

thats the shady part

#

lol

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:23 PM

#

I think the 3TB needs attention (this is similar to ours)

#

bandwidth is expensive

#

Here's my free interpretation of the 1K ours

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:24 PM

#

yeah but you have limited ccu and they dont, for 49$ a month, there has to be something

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:24 PM

#

Knowing how people "word" these, my assumption is:

total SUM of hours for open rooms

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 PM

#

What is a "room hour" ?
What is a "room" in this context?

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 PM

#

example:

one room at a time, needs to complete 1000 hours to reach that
if 2 at the same time, 500 hours
say you have 10 concurrent rooms, your limit is 100 hours, spread that over 30 days...

#

3 hours of gameplay per day

#

That's your limit

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 PM

#

lol

#

exactly what i thought

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 PM

#

"room" is one session?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:25 PM

#

but thats freaking shady

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:26 PM

#

Remember, that is my "safe" interpretation

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:26 PM

#

why would you limit your game like this

#

thats what i thought too

#

i looked throught all doc

#

not a single comment on it

#

and no mail anwser so yeah

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:26 PM

#

because there's no free lunch?

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:26 PM

#

grim violet and no mail anwser so yeah

this is not how to deal with a (prospect) customer, agree...:)

#

see, server costs and bandwidth are commodities, these are not different for them as they are for us

#

So a plan for 50 bucks a month is probably good for half of what a plan for 100 bucks a month on photon does...

#

Normcore is a relay as well, it's always using the servers bandwidth, etc

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:28 PM

#

thats why i stick with photon, good anwser at any time of the day or night, and ccu limit but no room hours shit ;p
by the time i get to that ccu limit, ill probably be rich

#

id prefer have unlimited room hours

#

and ccu

#

lol

#

people play and bam server cut

#

no more time left

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:28 PM

#

Honestly, using CCU as the metric is what our management says face to face to any customer: it's the most fair metric

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:29 PM

#

yeah it sound very low when you have no idea

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:29 PM

#

You can disagree on pricing, sure

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:29 PM

#

i seen a game that has 600 people max ccu

#

they made 12 million

#

so yeah

#

ill be able to afford that 3k ccu once there

#

lol

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:30 PM

#

it all depends on the platform as well

#

a 1K ccu game on steam is a HUGE success

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:30 PM

#

yeah

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:30 PM

#

If you have a paid game on steam that reaches 1k ccu, you are probably rich

#

And not worrie about paying 95 bucks per month

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

clearly

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

on mobile it's different

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

even hosting myself i tryed to calculate and it would cost me more than just using pun and a vm somewhere as backend server

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

because of F2P, you get a lot more players

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

computer cost + bandwith + electricity

#

it add up quickly

#

;p

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:31 PM

#

grim violet computer cost + bandwith + electricity

yes, but it IS possible to get cheaper than what we offer. We're not doing this on a loss, of course

#

BUT

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

You can host a VPS for 10 bucks a month with 20 TB traffic what do you mean electricity...

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

It takes a LOT of work, of effort and you need to find very good deals

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

its like having the industrial company selling at 1$ but if you do it on your own, good luck

#

its normal

#

;p

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

shut yarrow You can host a VPS for 10 bucks a month with 20 TB traffic what do you mean elec...

how many CCU can you hook on that baby?

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

Aren't these numbers https://steamcharts.com/ representative of CCU? At least, assuming the clients are not connecting to privately owned servers

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:32 PM

#

As much till you max out on RAM and CPU, so depends

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:33 PM

#

weak plinth Aren't these numbers https://steamcharts.com/ representative of CCU? At least, a...

Yes

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:33 PM

#

If a player play "offline" is that a ccu too

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:33 PM

#

these are live CCUs:

#

📎 unknown.png

#

then you can see how absurdly huge the big-shots are

#

The AAA stuff

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

yeah

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

The CCU of games like Destiny and Warframe though 😓

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

Or the new indie-frenzy Valheim

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

grim violet If a player play "offline" is that a ccu too

on steam, depends

#

It counts also players playing single player games

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

so it add up in that

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:34 PM

#

So I'd say if you have the game open in the menu, not searching for a match, it already counts

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:35 PM

#

yeh

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:35 PM

#

For the StreamCharts, or what you'd count as CCU? @gleaming prawn

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:35 PM

#

that screenshot

#

microsoft made a popular simulator

#

damn

#

;p

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:35 PM

#

steam charts

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

Ah ok, yes

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

for photon it counts only when you are connected to photon, of course

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

what about offline mode in photon

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

SteamCharts is steam metrics from the steam client, etc

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

does that count

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

Which is pretty cool btw

#

Nice to have that kind of data around

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

Yeah, it is. As soon as you boot up the game, even if you remain in the splash-screen, it counts as an active player

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

#

grim violet does that count

of course not

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM

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that data can actually be a burden

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i played some game where community was freaking toxic

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and used taht steam chart to attack on every side

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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lol, ye

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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each time a lost of player was made

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"the game is falling apart!" then they do bad reviews

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so yeah

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lol

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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I can deal with toxic players, but cheaters -_-

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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toxic players are worse

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way worse

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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cheating is overrated...:)

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:37 PM

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Depend what game you play

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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yeah cheating is a feature

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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I mean as a game maker

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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I can ignore toxic players, but cheaters come specifically for me

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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remember nintendo game genie

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;p

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a cassette to place other casette over to cheat

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made by nintendo itself

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they understood some player had fun with this

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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Thing is I care about it a lot, more than I should... And then you have these games where the dev did not give a shit about it (Fallguys, for example)

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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why not

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:38 PM

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And sell tons

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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I'm flying around in an airplane trying to catch bankrobbers, then whoops I get ejected from my airplane because a cheater pressed a button and now I'm falling to certain death

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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Cheating is NOT a problem on:

iOS
Consoles

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It's only a thing on PC and Android

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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webgl is easy too i think

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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Rinse and repeat... At that point I quit the game

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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So from a game development perspective, it's at least relative

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:39 PM

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i never tryed myself but i remember having ton of developper stuff for web and easy changing variables

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:40 PM

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webgl is totally open

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:40 PM

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thats the kind of game im making

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\o/

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:40 PM

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I do not deal with it most of the time because neither quantum nor fusion work on webgl at all

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:40 PM

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pun solution with fake authority from my server on webgl

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:40 PM

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you can do with realtime

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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People need an incentive to cheat in the first place, remember that

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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So you are running photon server with plugins?

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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And the bigger the incentive is, the likelier it is that people will cheat

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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nope

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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weak plinth And the bigger the incentive is, the likelier it is that people will cheat

yes

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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just webrpc

shut yarrow Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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Just being bored is enough for people to cheat

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Or just want to screw with people

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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php server

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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grim violet just webrpc

you mean webhooks plugin on photon?

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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That's why you very rarely see player cheat in co-op games or modes

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:41 PM

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no webrpc

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i dont use the webhook

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its part of it thought to give the address

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but i dont use the webhook stuff

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:42 PM

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I did not get what you are doing then... you have the clients connect both to PUN and to your backend?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:42 PM

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they connect to pun, and from there talk to m yserver

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PhotonNetwork.WebRPC

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:42 PM

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grim violet they connect to pun, and from there talk to m yserver

"there" you mean the clients?

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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from pun

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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it's a bit of a weird setup tbh, but if it works for you...:)

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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dont you knnow what is webrpc?

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its the name you use on the doc

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lol

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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I know what webrpc is, of course

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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kk lol

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yeah its weird setup but, i can save informations

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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ye

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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about my spawns and all, all is calculated there

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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ye ye

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM

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i can have loadbalancing if there many people

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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that's what I though, you use the backend as a sort of spawn and movement limits validation etc

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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yeah

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not movement thought

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its turn based battle

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i dont care if player cheat his movement in the map

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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Makes sense then

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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wont get him anywhere

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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so you use Pun just for the visual sync

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:44 PM

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yep

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and seeing each other player

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:45 PM

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but use your own backend for the gamelogic...

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:45 PM

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exact

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:45 PM

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THAT is nice, ye

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for a turn based game works just fine

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:45 PM

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making a whole mmorpg with this

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turn based battle but real time map with people walking around

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:45 PM

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ye

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you'll only hit the issue with the number of players in the same rooms

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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i lock em at 50

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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Although you can go clever with interest groups and the update freqnecy

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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could probably optimize for more but i dont want to

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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and push that a lot higher

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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ill just make more room

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Village1 Village2 etc

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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ye

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but you can go higher due to your setup not needing to run the actual game logic over pun

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM

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yeah i dont have much going on except player movmeent

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its just that actually

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and ressource spawn when player get resource

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i use custom room properties to hold info on who get it first

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but still server that check it if its okay at the end

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so far its working fine, tryed with 5-6 people

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:49 PM

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I failed to find here (google) the blog post (from a customer) explaining a way to do interest management with pun

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Would work well for your setup

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:49 PM

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i probably saw it when i started this project hehe

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did alot of research how to make a server with pun

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to find out about php

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interest management you mean by player around?

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like ring streaming players

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:50 PM

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just to make people far from you be updated seldom

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:51 PM

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yeah

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i could make bigger map with this

gleaming prawn Feb 17, 2021, 2:51 PM

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So you improve bandwidth and can go higher on player count

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https://doc.photonengine.com/en-us/pun/v1/demos-and-tutorials/package-demos/culling-demo

Culling Demo | Photon Engine

Photon Unity Networking framework for realtime multiplayer games and applications with no punchthrough issues. Export to all Unity supported platforms, no matter what Unity license you have!

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this

grim violet Feb 17, 2021, 2:51 PM

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i make room right now with maps, its big map but still limited

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ill check it out

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i wasnt even award you could do that with pun

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that open doors

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😛

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can you believe im using pun since about 2 year and never seen this script, someone spoke about rigidbody view other day and i was using the transform view instead ignoring the other one was there lol

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there so much stuff

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 6:13 PM

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bruh what is even going on with the new multiplayer api

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 6:15 PM

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Which one?

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 6:17 PM

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idk i have no idea whats available to use right now all i know is that unet is being depreciated

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but i want to start a multiplayer project

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 6:18 PM

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Just use thirdparty solutions like people pretty much always have.

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 6:20 PM

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alright

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i tried photon and i really didnt like it so ill try mirror i suppose

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or maybe, what would you guys recommend for turn based multiplayer? nothing real time

gray pond Feb 17, 2021, 7:15 PM

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timber lava or maybe, what would you guys recommend for turn based multiplayer? nothing real...

You can use anything for turn-based...even a web service. It will be down to ease of use at that point and your own skill set

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 7:22 PM

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timber lava or maybe, what would you guys recommend for turn based multiplayer? nothing real...

Plain TCP Sockets will in my opinion be one of the easier options

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No extra fluff to work with, and because it's TCP, you don't have issues with out-of-order, duplicate or missing data

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 7:23 PM

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could u recommend some resources for working with a tcp socket in unity?

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 7:24 PM

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Don't know any on the top of my head, sorry

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 7:24 PM

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all good

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 7:25 PM

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Most I can offer you is a Chess game in C++ that also uses TCP

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 7:25 PM

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lol that actually might be pretty useful

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 7:26 PM

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https://github.com/DennisCorvers/ChessCPP

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The relevant bits are in SGameClient and SGameHost

timber lava Feb 17, 2021, 7:31 PM

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thanks a dozen 👍

weak plinth Feb 17, 2021, 8:01 PM

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Yeah, no problem. Hopefully it's useful for you.

slim ridge Feb 17, 2021, 8:28 PM

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https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.net.sockets.tcpclient

TcpClient Class (System.Net.Sockets)

Provides client connections for TCP network services.

rich narwhal Feb 17, 2021, 9:40 PM

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Does anyone know why in unity PUN photon i have a photon view on a object yet it wont show up in game for the otherplayer

spring crane Feb 17, 2021, 10:04 PM

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@rich narwhal Are you using PhotonNetwork.Instantiate?

rich narwhal Feb 17, 2021, 10:08 PM

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well the thing is should i instantiate? i have it rn to where you just enable it and then at start it disables it and you can renenable it in game

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but it doesnt show up

grizzled comet Feb 17, 2021, 10:12 PM

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if i have some "working" code (it's a little janky, but it basically does what i want it to) using mirror... how hard is it going to be to convert the player movement to server-authoritive from the current client authority version i'm using? relatively easy or... basically start over from scratch?

rapid horizon Feb 19, 2021, 9:30 AM

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Am having trouble understanding "CONCURRENT USERS" if i buy the photon 2 Plus does that mean only 100 players can play the game at a time OR i can have 100 players in one match / room

gleaming prawn Feb 19, 2021, 9:49 AM

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concurrent is the total sum across all active rooms

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Does not matter if two of 50, 5 of 20, etc

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But remember that to get to 100 players in avg you need to have something like 2000 daily active players (DAU), which requires around 40000 downloads of your game, etc

weak birch Feb 19, 2021, 9:52 AM

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@jade glacier looking for job opportunity xD

stiff zinc Feb 19, 2021, 10:34 AM

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Yo, anyone here has experience with playfab? I'm trying to figure out the session lengths of my users, upon logging in session_started gets raised, but session_ended never seems to get raised

idle coral Feb 19, 2021, 11:51 AM

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hello guys im new here, and im also new to unity networking. Im currently stuck with UnityWebRequest.Put method. I've looked at the unity manual, it shows how to pass a string, but I want to pass a key,value style pair. How to do that? Thanks

rapid horizon Feb 19, 2021, 2:29 PM

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gleaming prawn concurrent is the total sum across all active rooms

Thanks for clearing that

jade glacier Feb 19, 2021, 4:38 PM

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@weak birch You are looking?

weak birch Feb 19, 2021, 4:52 PM

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Yes remote front end . Do u know any? @jade glacier

jade glacier Feb 19, 2021, 4:52 PM

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I don't, I live in a pretty small bubble and I don't really know many employers sorry 😕

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Company fell apart?

weak birch Feb 19, 2021, 4:53 PM

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No im just trying to improve life by earning in dollar currency

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Wages aren't satisfying

jade glacier Feb 19, 2021, 4:55 PM

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Ahh. yeah sorry - I am the wrong person to help there.

still pier Feb 19, 2021, 6:41 PM

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Hi does anyone know if unity server builds can utilise ConsoleColor

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or accept stdin

weak plinth Feb 19, 2021, 6:53 PM

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There's nothing special about a "Unity Server" assuming you mean a headless build

still pier Feb 19, 2021, 6:55 PM

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yeah

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My question is can I make a command line engine to control the server by accepting input

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like minecraft

weak plinth Feb 19, 2021, 6:56 PM

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Sure

still pier Feb 19, 2021, 6:57 PM

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How can I make it accept input

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in a c# console app I can do Console.ReadLine();

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but in unity I'm not sure

weak plinth Feb 19, 2021, 6:57 PM

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The same, it's just C#

still pier Feb 19, 2021, 6:57 PM

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but it isn't a c# console app is it?