archived-pricing-updates-talk

[raw helm]

Reading a testimony of an ex-epic engineer for Unity migrants rn:
"In fact there are so many undocumented features of the engine that you'll certainly end up writing your own version of something that already exists in the engine at some point."
At least they warned them 😂

[bitter tinsel]

Common in any big OOP codebase tbh

[raw helm]

Refusal to adopt ECS as industry standard for video games has been a disaster 💀

[bitter tinsel]

I'm not really a fan of ECS, I prefer OOP for the most part

[plucky ivy]

is learning ECS as hard as learning unreal lol? if so then its unadoptable im afraid

[raw helm]

When there is a good framework, ECS is superb. With a poor framework it's such a pain in the ass, however.
Jokes aside though, OOP is fine for most things IT

[bitter tinsel]

ECS is easy, probably easier to pick up and use than OOP

[raw helm]

ECS is actually pretty basic in nature it's just that the hasn't been a good mainstream framework yet (Bevy is not mainstream an Unity's implementation is not very good). I also agree that it is easier concept than OOP.

[bitter tinsel]

ECS is much easier in engines that are designed bottom up to use it. It's very popular for indie roguelike dev for example. It's harder to retrofit it into an existing engine

[raw helm]

I've recently worked with an engine built from scratch for ECS. They used .yml to create prototypes. Was an absolute blast.

[bitter tinsel]

But yeah it's very simple. You have entities, which are usually just unique integers, components which just hold data that are attached to those entities, and then systems which are just functions that do stuff with those components. The main thing the ECS framework supplies is some way to get all of the components of a certain type

[raw helm]

It also greatly discourages inheritance which is probably the main critique point of OOP.

[plucky ivy]

so to learn ECS i basically gotta forget everything i know about programming in unity and relearn everything? and what are the benefits?

[raw helm]

You don't need to forget anything about programming, you just change the structure of your code.

[bitter tinsel]

basic ECS is very simple, it only gets complicated when you go next steps

[raw helm]

Absolutely worth it for projects that tend to rapidly expand in size tho

[plucky ivy]

is ECS just for games that want to have like over 10k enemies at once or something?

[raw helm]

That one I worked on just had a SHIT ton of content and doing in with oop would've cased inheritance spaghetti real quick. But I guess it's good for performance as well 🤷‍♂️

[bitter tinsel]

@plucky ivy Unity is already kind of similar to ECS in some ways, it's just that the Component and System aspects get combined together. ECS is generally easier when you have many different types of behaviours and properties that can be spread across many types of objects and enemies

[plucky ivy]

if i dont use ECS how many enemies can i have max near u at once without lag?

[bitter tinsel]

No one can answer that question

[plucky ivy]

im just wondering if i need to switch to ECS. dont want to have to realize that too late

[bitter tinsel]

ECS is not primarily about performance

[raw helm]

You need to have a pretty damn good understanding about a thing to even consider switching because otherwise it's a guranteed waste of time.

[bitter tinsel]

It's just the most convenient way to make certain kinds of games

[obtuse oyster]

If you are targeting 30+, I would start considering using ECS.

[jolly apex]

What's it primarily about then you think?

[bitter tinsel]

Organisation and architecture. It can sometimes have performance benefits depending on the implementation

[plucky ivy]

but dont some games from the 90s can have that many and they handle it fine?

[bitter tinsel]

Yeah 30 is very conservative lol

[raw helm]

Architecture is the most important aspect of ECS, imo

[willow crypt]

It's almost like a starter pack for c++

[obtuse oyster]

Do you want a game from the 90s ?

[bitter tinsel]

To be fair, games from the 90s were not using heap allocations and OOP. But normal Unity will do 30 enemies fine. Maybe 300 or 3000 is closer to a problem

[plucky ivy]

how many enemies could a game like dusk handle at once without having any performance problems, what do u think? (without ECS)

[bitter tinsel]

No idea

[plucky ivy]

anyone else have an idea?

[frigid patio]

Depending on your target platform 30 enemies isn't all that conservative. Try getting 20 skinned mesh renders running on the quest

[plucky ivy]

imagine that the target platform is pc

[frigid patio]

Well then it also would probably depend on your requirements. Are we talking 30 powered rag dolls? Or are we talking simple low poly-skinned mesh renderers or even just pill enemies?

To put a cap on your expectations go spawn 300 capsules with physics or character controllers and see how well things run

[plucky ivy]

what about dusk enemies? the game called 'dusk'

[frigid patio]

An equally interesting experiment is to spawn a pile of ragdolls and watch the frame rate drop

[frigid patio]

I haven't really looked at it before but it appears to have an old school aesthetic so I imagine you can get away with a lot of simplification

If you're not using physics and rag dolls and your weapons are basically hit scan I suspect you can probably have about 50 of those duders running around

[summer hill]

I think unity's new pricing is very acceptable but the stocks keep falling. when do you guys think the downward trend will stop

[tawdry dawn]

why is it aways a debate on life and death with you people when the obvious is stated, unity is far more simple and easy to use then unreal, you can talk and articulate as much as you want. cpp is more complex then c#, unreal has way more stuff going on then unity, now move on.

[cunning gorge]

the stock went up because shareholders liked the thought of making more money due to the install fees. It's not based on developers being happy. It'll go back up when it looks like Unity may make more money.

[edgy yew]

It really isn't that simple though. I know plenty of artists that feel Blueprints and Unreal is far easier to learn than C# and Unity. It's subjective.

[prisma birch]

seems like all tech market is in recession not only Unity

[tired hedge]

I'd be curious what is the highest revenue game made with blueprints/visual code

[tawdry dawn]

blueprints are not a substitute to code, you dont know what your talking about, they are an addition to code

[tired hedge]

thats no way to make friends

[sweet minnow]

You can use it as a substitute tho
Just look at project feline, entirely made in blueprints
The system isn't meant to be used this way, but it works

[cunning gorge]

Mortal Shell supposedly used Blueprints extensively. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yLq7jlVCAY&ab_channel=UnrealEngine

[tired hedge]

How does this channel not have a simple ty emoji.... thanks skidvis

[tawdry dawn]

you can also build a game with if/else

[plucky ivy]

this is a ty emoji: 👍

[tired hedge]

ah I suppose so, 👍 you for tellin me

[fallen kiln]

Most games are made entirely with them. They are so advanced that you hardly need a line of code, even if your game is complex (some games still do need some hard coding though)

[jolly apex]

Is the actual Unity variant
But yeah, that's why I usually put it on 1 line, then enter, then write the message. Embedded in a message it's really small.
This channel is in super slow mode though...

[plucky ivy]

impossible to see what it is when its tiny tho

[tawdry dawn]

cool.

[old slate]

this room finally calmed down
i remember being here when the news came out, several people were typing for 5 days straight

[jolly apex]

Yeah 8 hours ago it was almost dead for 2 hours, quite a big difference

[tired hedge]

yea shrimps are quiet now

[cunning gorge]

pretty sure we heard every variation of "i Am 100% DoNe WiTh UnItY! i MeAn It! NeVeR aGaIn!"

[tawdry dawn]

maybe they can remove the timer now

[jolly apex]

They just doubled it, so I think they wont
I'm quite sure it was 30 seconds, I never needed to wait this long. Anyhow, I might be wrong.

[tawdry dawn]

it was aways 1min afair

[cunning gorge]

slomo is here to protect you. I can get chatty.

[bitter tinsel]

You're right it was 30 seconds before but they changed it to 1 min yesterday

[tired hedge]

yeah I too only use software that people hate on

[fallen kiln]

Fart

[edgy yew]

Nah, I'm sorry, I have to call you out on that one. Out of the two of us, I think its clear you don't know what you are talking about. Blueprints are indeed (by their very design) a substitute to writing code. It is quite literally the only reason it exists 😄

[tired hedge]

please say excuse me if u have to type that messir

[spiral wraith]

Only the strongest will survive

[edgy yew]

Being able to layer something in C++ and Blueprints, doesn't stop the fact that Blueprints is replacing you writing code to reach an objective - it is the very definition of substitution.

[edgy yew]

Yeah they are slowing it down (rightfully) to wind down the channel as things return to normalcy 🙂

[tawdry dawn]

blueprints are literally just about connecting code, they bridge code, they dont replace it, yes you still dont know what your talking about. by using blueprints, you alredy use code that alredy exist....

[edgy yew]

That wasn't your argument. I think you forgot the subject to to which you are replying 😉

[tawdry dawn]

i sayd blueprints are used with code, not exclusevly. they might seem like theyr used exclusevly becouse they are the bridge/backbone to the code you connect

[tired hedge]

plz dnt fite

[edgy yew]

You didn't say that, you said: unity is far more simple and easy to use then unreal, you can talk and articulate as much as you want. cpp is more complex then c# in response to someone talking about Blueprints being a fast workflow for them.

The rest of your arguments seem to be random incorrect statements without meaning or relation to the context. Hence, when you say "you don't understand what you are talking about", the person I think you are referring to is yourself.

[tawdry dawn]

yes and

[jolly apex]

This is becoming more of an impromptu off topic channel now.

[edgy yew]

It's been that way for a while 😄

[livid zenith]

Wow this is the first time I’ve seen this channel die

[mortal stratus]

Most people are over it. There's little controversy anymore. Either:

• They are over Unity and already left
• Are satisfied with Unity's changed policy

[willow crypt]

• Painfully finishing projects and switching engines.

We won't know the impact until 6- 18 months from now

[twin cypress]

well, im jobless atm and im not complaining if I get accepted in company that uses unity, though it would kinda suck if it becomes abandoned technology, transitioning to unreal engine job is hard here because employers pretty much dont care about anything else than "job experience in this particular programming language and technology"

[lavish fable]

so what's the consensus now on the new pricing models

[azure stone]

Happy that my existing published unity game is not affected. Also happy that I learned unreal last year.

[silk gale]

This. I am in the middle of a 5 year project with maybe two years left.
I like the engine a ton. I am now learning both Godot and Unreal because of this.
IMHO the per install tracking in any capacity should not be normalized and I won't support it.
Costs aside, I won't blindly trust my passion work to Unity. I don't trust Unity at all.
My programmer is starting his own 3d project from scratch in Godot already too.
All I can say to Unitys board is do what you can afford.

[floral mist]

Unity has so much lost trust to get back. Just saw yet another developer announce they were switching engines.
Even after having rolled back their policy, this is seriously the beginning of the end without some kind of major action to fix their image.

Do we even think it's possible to salvage?

[delicate owl]

Yes

[floral mist]

That's.. kind of reassuring to hear actually. Thanks. I still feel like the strategy of letting it blow over isn't going to work in the long run though.

[silk gale]

Yes I do. The issue is the board, not the devs making the engine changes.
My programmer hopes Unity crashes so the code goes open source lol. Its not nice but there it is. We both have enjoyed making our games in Unity. Its the perfect middle ground ,master of none, engine.
I plan to keep an eye on statements through out the rest of the development cycle and make the final decision when our project is near completion.
I agree with giving the engine financial support. However, taking away plus, being charged a seat, being charged revenue on top of that flat fee. It's too much for just a tool.
In the end, Untiy is just a tool. You shouldn't have to pay more than once for it, whether via revenue, or subscription.
I don't want that normalized. So I will pay more in the future in Unreal or Donate to Godot a share of what I make on my paid projects.

It sucks because I have a ton of respect for the programmers and devs working on Unity. I love the way they support the engine itself. It's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Ironsource, and that CEO being pulled would be nice. Having a few actual devs invovled in the pipeline being on the board would certainly help build more trust.

[tranquil moat]

Did we ever get the full source code to flash by it crashing/EOL'ing?

[silk gale]

I don't know where he got that but the code will go somewhere lol. There is no basis at all for it. He was just musing.

[tranquil moat]

I think he is hoping the history of Netscape will repeat itself

[silk gale]

Yeah lol perhaps. TBH I don't mind giving a good team of devs money for their hard work when I can. I dont' want to see people lose their jobs though.

[tranquil moat]

The main difference was Netscape started as source code available (NCSA Mosaic) and one of the lead developers (JWZ) was an open source advocate

[silk gale]

Unity has lost a ton of trust, but we will see in the coming years how many have moved on for real. It's hard for me as well. I feel like Unity is home. TO move out is painful.
But yeah lol I have several devs trying to push me to learn Unreal because they want me to join their team lulz.

[tranquil moat]

What more do you expect Unity to do for you to personally feel you could trust them again?

[floral mist]

Not really, I might still do so however

[silk gale]

Consistency: legal locked down agreements they wont' just remove again. And in writing promises not to push forward with black box software for per install tracking.
They pulled back on that, but now we know it was in their plans.
Get rid of it. I can't release a game to users wondering if their privacy is compromised by a company that just deleted a legal document so they can retroactively charge others. That is a legal nightmare waiting to happen.
And finally a few actual devs that they listen to in the board room. I know they have to work with shareholders and make profit. I also understand that the financial gurus don't have the bandwidth to learn the details of game dev. It has to be a team effort.
The self reporting is great, but now they have to help devs feel better about the hints of spyware in game builds. That is simply not OK at all. Period.

Imagine pulling a programmer out of their basement to balance a charge sheet lmao. Get a coffee mug thrown at you.

[floral mist]

Yeah. That would do wonders

[silk gale]

I have some hope but I am planning for the worst case.

[floral mist]

With current management I just don't know what's happening

[silk gale]

They got on EU's radar now lol. It might actually be a good thing. It's still a wait and see.

[tranquil moat]

But Marc Whitten has a hour long youtube video to provide reassurance!

[bitter tinsel]

I don’t know a single soul that uses blueprints

[floral mist]

They exist, and are honestly good for artists. But obviously aren't a replacement for C# / C++

[silk gale]

I know a whole dev team making a huge game with blueprints. I am sure they have some C++ native in there as well.

[bitter tinsel]

For artists specifically or for stand in programmers (Don’t make me cry Therin D: )

[dark gulch]

im know the fireside chat was pretty disappointed, but idk, i feel like marc is trying all that he can, but his hands are tied, ya know? its a whole debacle'

[scarlet heath]

Marc was used as a scape goat

[zenith echo]

Per “install” is bad. Per “initial engagement” makes sense and has the benefit of potentially being cheaper than flat rev-share.

Plus you have the choice to use the cheapest of either, or whichever you just prefer.

Yes, the initial plan was hot garbage, and trust is still on the table, but I’m not going to hate on a new type of pricing model just because the first version of it was trash. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[silk gale]

A rev share works just fine. And I don't mind sharing with the tool if that is all I pay. Initial engagement is a trap imho.
They can normalize tracking. And even with self reporting, that is even more Devs have to track instead of a flat rate.
Having to track downloads made on Itch Io, or other places other than Steam...
Its a slippery slope I don't think we should even entertain.

[hoary perch]

the only way id be fine with the initial announcement was if there was an install limit mechanism, so if there are too many installs the game would not run..however im sure many would like peace of mind that one will never end up with a negative account balance, which revenue share has for the most part

[cerulean lintel]

99.9% of reasonable developers will be tracking some form of analytics to help them improve in future games. we have also stated you can just tell us the amount of copies purchased as relatively equivalent to installs in the self report which every single market front will tell you or if you dont wanna do any of this just tell us your revenue and pay us 2.5% but 90+% of the time your runtime fee will be less than that.

[frank iron]

If we look at it from a different perspective, rather than just assuming "Unity is greedy"...

In practice, "self-reporting" means that Unity primarily monitors game developers with substantial earnings. They investigate these specific targets to determine their payment obligations while disregarding game developers who meet the threshold but would only incur minimal charges.

From this perspective, self-reporting appears to be an extremely unreliable system. Implementing runtime logic to report the actual numbers seems to be a more accurate approach.

Some may argue that this system is similar to paying income taxes to the government and works fine. However, the government has significantly more power and access to better solutions, such as monthly income tax withholding for employers.

There are significant consequences for not paying income taxes. The government can collaborate with banks and reject your application for a home loan if you fail to self-report annually. In contrast, Unity can only deny your access to the editor service.

[odd crystal]

I was about to write a big response to Skull's comments, but after reading what followed you've saved me from wasting my time. 😂

[zenith echo]

If a rev share works just fine and you don’t want to track downloads or whatever from obscure places, then don’t. Just use the 2.5% rev share (which you still have to self report, just like anywhere else).

And then Billy Bob somewhere who gets to pay less (because he’s counting engagements) is happy he has a choice.

If it was ONLY initial engagements or “the greater of”, I’d agree. But I’m not going to ask someone else to pay MORE because I don’t like a thing.

[odd crystal]

This is very fair and I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with this. Even just reporting copies purchased as an equivalent to installs is already a bonus.

[silk gale]

They backpedaled on retroactive install fees after getting blasted lol. You don't think, without some form of in writing assurances, they will not try again? "It's cheaper." right now.
Ah well. You guys do you. I was asked my thoughts and I gave them.
Our team will probably move on after this project is complete.
With that being said, best of luck to everyone in their own decisions.

[odd crystal]

I'm sure the vast majoirty are not happy with the CEO and it wont be forgotten. Sadly if you have a lot of time and money already invested into a Unity game it is very costly to just port it over to another engine. For future projects developers will have to consider based on trust, but beyond that when money is to be made and money is being spent you have to sometimes go with the flow.

[exotic jay]

Is there a help channel? My game keeps crashing and I don't know why

[agile spruce]

!support

Right, bot doesn't work here. Use #🔎┃find-a-channel and pick a channel that relates to your topic.

[exotic jay]

But I don't know why it's crashing
If it's related to a script or physics or something
I don't see a channel for general game engine help
Is there a channel you would suggest?

[agile spruce]

#💻┃unity-talk

[quiet abyss]

Unity runtime fee = dumb and stupid

[subtle viper]

Unless you sell your game for $20 and then it = save you money?

[hoary perch]

No, runtime fee is fair plus we have two options. The online calculator will help determine what each one costs

[subtle viper]

I'm a little confused on how you "sell higher" on a F2P game. For the F2P market, that is what the 2.5% cap protects, doesn't it?

[bitter tinsel]

Is the download fee still a go thing? Will it still happen?

[subtle viper]

Which is moot at this point.

I appreciate your thoughts of my common sense 🙂 My common sense says 90% of the TOS or EULAs we agree to give some stipulation of "they can change it". LOL

I wans't asking a question, I was responding to someone else 🙂

I don't care about any of the run time fee stuff. The initial retroactive stuff is the only thing that concerned me 🙂

I use question marks liberely? 🙂

LMAO - far from offended. Good talk though!

[rigid moon]

Yes, besides trust lost etc, having the runtime/install/engagement fee is the main thing people are unhappy about with the current deal.

[zenith echo]

Even with a AAA, at $60 a game, runtime fees at $100K is like 0.17% (way less than 2.5%, or even 5%).

But if your ARPU is just $0.02 because it’s F2P, then you’d just use the 2.5% and pay $500 instead of $100,000.

But in reality at that ARPU, 1M engagements per month is only $240,000 per year, so you really pay $0 for runtime fees, and are just paying for the Pro seat.

Which isn’t much compared to the $240,000 (like 0.8%).

[subtle viper]

But before the "current" deal they were unhappy that it was retroactive and "why not just rev share"... At the end of the day, you can't please everyone...

[subtle viper]

Unless it's 10 devs making that 1M users than you only have pennies left in the piggy bank... Playing devils advocate? 🙂 (on your F2P talk)

[rigid moon]

Before they where unhappy that there was retroactivity, and they where unhappy install/engagement fees exist. (and tracking was done with spyware or estimations, as it wasn't clear)

Now its self reported and retroactivity has been removed for now, last thing left is the per install/engagement fee that people are unhappy with.

[zenith echo]

If you’re going to play devil’s advocate, at least pay your devs more than $24,000 a year…

$240K/yr… that’s a two dev bankroll, at most. Unless everyone is working for free, and then $500 or $20,000 isn’t the problem. 😆

[subtle viper]

Nothing is clear, it isn't written in stone yet. If you don't live engagement, then use rev share... That is what they asked for... So again, now it isn't retro and there is a rev share only option. Why are they mad??? The only reason should be trust, which is huge...

[rigid moon]

Trust isnt a tangible thing. I said besides trust etc, The things that are tangibly in the deal engagements are the last thing left to be removed.

Unity has no reason or ethical right to charge for engagements.

[subtle viper]

OK - so we pay them $24,000 a year. We have 1MM active users which nets us their salary, and now we can't afford the Pro seats and are in the red $20,400. Unless my math is wrong? LOL I thought you said the ARPU of 1MM would be about $240,000?!?

[subtle viper]

If engagements/runtime cost < 2.5% of rev, I'm good with that. The reason for me is to pay less.

[rigid moon]

That's not the point they can always adjust prices and stuff, The point is the principle of the thing, it ethically shouldnt exist.

If you want a cheaper deal, they could do other things to do a cheaper deal that arn't as unethical and scammy

[zenith echo]

No dev is working for $24K/yr. You running a sweat shop out of a third world hole somewhere?

Make your fictional counter argument believable. Even without the fees you’ve built a terrible business model because you’re paying your devs more than you’re netting, even after paying App Store fees. Hahaha

[subtle viper]

You said it, they can always change things. So can any company. So they get rid of engagements. They do a flat 2.5%, that makes everyone happy?!? Maybe 6% next year... Tehy can always change prices...

[rigid moon]

Sure they can change to whatever they want but at the moment install/engagement tracking is a scam (regardless of if at the moment its cheaper and optional)

[subtle viper]

Maybe we had a misunderstanding... LOL... You said ARPU 1MM = $240,000..

"But in reality at that ARPU, 1M engagements per month is only $240,000 per year, so you really pay $0 for runtime fees, and are just paying for the Pro seat."

I said what if it takes 10 devs to get the 1MM ARPU....

[zenith echo]

Yep, at $0.02 ARPU + 1M/mo, that’s $240,000 (or $20K per month).

So if it took you 10 devs to get there, you’re already underwater after the App Stores take 30% (so excluding Unity you already sank your mythical scenario while also paying an unlivable wage).

Thus, it’s not a realistic scenario. Or at least it’s not a scenario where Unity fees are the primary problem. lol

[subtle viper]

Revenue is what you get from the app store, so we would ignore the 30%. (Which app store is 30%?) Perfect, no more Pro licenses 🙂
But maybe we look at it different because I do it as a hobby, not a job. I was trying to rationalize some fears of F2P, but devils advocate continues to lose 🙂

[zenith echo]

30% is probably worse case. I think Apple is 30% (unless you sign up for their small business thing and then it’s like 15% maybe)?

And I believe the Runtime Fees and Rev Share is based on Gross Revenue (which would be before the store fees). For income taxes, you’d only pay on the 70% of your Net.

And yes, I’m sure there are scenarios where the Seat fee could squeeze you a bit, but if it does, I think there are other business issues at play because you’d already be operating really close to broke anyway, which would indicate you need to do some cost savings, regardless. (this is also an example of a run on sentence… hahaha)

As a hobby, it’s not going to matter anyway.

[subtle viper]

I think we might need lawyers to chime in. LMAO
"Gross revenue is a business's total earnings from selling products, services, or both."
I could argue, I don't pay Apple 30%, they pay me 70%, but who knows, I'm not a lawyer. I'm an IT guy..

[zenith echo]

Yeah, I hate taxes. Bring in the accountant!!! 🤣

[subtle viper]

Agree with both other statements. If a seat fee squeezes a "Studio" they have other issues. If a hobbiest actually had to worry about the costs, he did freaking AWESOME!!! 😛

[rigid moon]

from my understanding its not before or after, 30%+2.5% happen on the same gross rev, aka its billed on your total earnings before any costs.

[subtle viper]

But thats not what any app store does, the app store pays you 70%. Again we would need lawyers and accountants to figure that out... LOL

I just want the rev cap to change 🙂 If any title goes over $200k you have to go to pro. I don't want the additional costs of hobbying under an LLC that already makes over $200k, with no game revenue at all, to force me to pro. Another LLC is just additional costs... LOL

So when the first wording came out and it was per title, I was excited... hahahhahaha

Either way none of it ever stopped me from continuing to develop my F2P 😛 I want to finish one of these darn things I started... 😛

[zenith echo]

That’s what I think too. On a $1 purchase you’d lose $0.30 to store and $0.025 (total $0.33) to Unity (assuming requirements are met).

[zenith echo]

Do it! PM me a link when you do so I can play it!

And I think if you are making >$200K, it’s no longer a hobby. 😝

[hasty sleet]

pricing updates r bad

[subtle viper]

A consulting LLC != a Game Development LLC 🙂 That's my only squabble... At the end of the day I guess it's cheaper for the seat than a separate LLC when you include the state fees and accountant. LOL

My game development is like 2-4 hours of my day, if I could make that not a hobby and make >$200k I'm ALL IN... lol

[delicate owl]

too early to rename this back to industry news? Hey how about that video game actor strike

[subtle viper]

Thinking about it 20 times, I agree. Just like if someone pays me with a credit card, $100 - 3%. My gross revenue is still $100.

[subtle viper]

Not too early 🙂

I'll just have to find another channel to chat in.... LOL

[rigid moon]

i mean if you scroll up are people talking about the strike or pricing changes still? (they should strike about the pricing changes instead)

[delicate owl]

I'm just kidding around, I don't have any say.

[rigid moon]

i mean it could be changed back at this point, but pricing changes are still industry news so nothing will change about the dicussion, just the title will go back to what it was.

[subtle viper]

Valid point though... LOL

[nocturne crow]

Should making new channel for that

[subtle viper]

I'm hoping pricing updates are done now... LOL

[nocturne crow]

The aftershock will be continued, at least a month

[subtle viper]

I get that.. but please no more updates. hahhaha

[nocturne crow]

They should. There are 1 things left, which is how they would take responsibility for breach of trust, such as changing ToS and make retroactive license

[rigid moon]

they could fire bunch of people, get bought by another company or do some crazy promise if they ever do it again. to attempt to get trust back but I doubt it.

Only pricing change that needs to be done is removal of engagement/install/runtime fees

[nocturne crow]

Riccitiello should announce something. For him should be the one responsible for all this. For the reason he is in CEO position. And also everyone propbably accurate about him being the one who craft all this scandal pricing plan

[nocturne crow]

Taking responsibility is a way to show that they will not do it again. I never have trust in business or any kind of organization, only system of incentive and benefit are trustable

[rigid moon]

exactly, causing higher ups to lose there jobs is them accepting they did something wrong and punishing themselves, getting bought by another company is taking responsibility and accepting they cant be trusted, promising some crazy thing like "we will give unity to unreal if we do it again" is at least better then just saying "we wont do it again for a 3rd time trust us bro" what if you do though? "we wont" then when/if they do they are in a way stickier situation.

But all they did was pull back on the plans a bit and still havn't removed the install/engagement fees. which has done very little to gain back trust.

[nocturne crow]

The point is you only talking about "if they ever do it again". Taking responsibility must be right now, to cope with the damage that had been already done

[rigid moon]

no, they could fire people right now, they could get bought by another company right now, which would gain back trust.
They could also right now promise a huge crazy thing if they ever do it again which will take place "if they ever do it again" sure. But those are things that I could see unity doing to gain some trust back.

[wanton latch]

Selling your company doesn't usually inspire trust

[rigid moon]

the point is unity no one trusts, so if they sold the new company that is more trustworthy can have more "trust" not to do anything scammy in the future.

[subtle viper]

I don't think that is pricing though... Maybe the channel name changes to "how-to-regain-trust". But then all anyone will type is "You can't" 😛

[subtle viper]

Do you really believe the CEO makes decisions on his own, in a public company?

[nocturne crow]

It was the after effect of "pricing update" event though

[subtle viper]

Agree. so we should change the name to "after-effect" 🙂

[nocturne crow]

Ah, maybe, if we want to be accurate

[rigid moon]

or put it back to "industry news" since this is all industry news.

[subtle viper]

I would just like to see the pricing updates stop. Figure it, tell us what it is, and we move on... With or without Unity...

[rigid moon]

I want unity to do good, so i want them to removed the engagement fees.

[nocturne crow]

For the narative as many people pointed out. It's not that shareholder need to decide and force him to do it, the shareholder choose him to be CEO hoping for this kind of plan in and of itself. So he totally decide it and being chosen to decide that this plan is a great plan fr company

[subtle viper]

Which is fine, they did... report your revenue and those fees are meaningless....

[rigid moon]

they didn't install/runtime/engagement fees still exist which is bad for unity, i want what is best for unity so I want them gone.

[nocturne crow]

And so he stepping down is the signal to show that they all admit they are wrong, no matter who really deciding it

[rigid moon]

nahuh they can just rollback the changes slightly and say "sorry" then its all okay no need to actually face any conciquinces...

[subtle viper]

I disagree... The Board (not shareholders) said, hey we are losing money every quarter. What can we do? He said, well we could charge for every reload, you know when they are in the heat of the game, the cost doesn't matter. The board said Ok, how do we do that.... Fire the CEO, there will be another that comes in and when the board says we need money they (collectively) will decide how to go about that.

[nocturne crow]

As I said, no matter what you want it still not stopped. Unity are still bleeding. And they need to decide to patch the wound or just cut it. Now they still left the bleeding drying by itself. But thet will lead to rotting wound

[subtle viper]

Bro, your're a broken record for over the last week. If you can't comprehend you won't pay runtime fees, if you pay 2.5% rev share, then I don't know how to help you understand. And yes, that's todays offer, not tomorrows...

[rigid moon]

gruesome analogy, but if you keep cutting yourself of course your gonna keep bleeding regardless of how many bandaids you try to apply.

[nocturne crow]

Need money is something and I am fine with. Most people are fine with that, even tolerate the revenue share up to 4%. Some might not tolerate and leave, they have their own reason which is also fine and not so many will do

But the current breakdown come from the way and style that was all Riccitiello's way of doing business. Man, you know? this plan really have signature of his personality like no one else

Not to mention the problem of losing money was also because Riccitiello's fault, from buying too many company and reject AppLovin deal to merge with IronSource. If they just merge with AppLovin since then they might have already rich because AppLovin have more revenue

[subtle viper]

So everyone threw a fit because the IronSource deal and denying AppLovin? Or "tolerating a rev share up to 2.5%"? Sorry I'm just missing your logic as you are talking about past events that seemed pretty quiet until there was a reload charge....

So at this point, what are "most people" not fine with? The rev share is less than the 4% you are saying?!?!

[wanton latch]

But the current breakdown come from the way and style that was all Riccitiello's way of doing business. Man, you know? this plan really have signature of his personality like no one else
Do you personally know them?

[subtle viper]

Have you seen what he publicly said while being CEO of EA?

[rigid moon]

in EA he was criticized for buying unnecessary companies costing EA money (just a coincidence unity has been buying unnecessary companies to...) in EA he wanted to charge people per reload (just a coincidence unity is now charging developers per free download/webgl play..)

[subtle viper]

The are not charging for webgl play. For free games, lets call it 2.5% rev share, no?

[nocturne crow]

Nothing personal, just business https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Mi5a11YkQ

[lethal star]

Guyss so far no more changes from unity. So I guess they really sticking to this latest price plan which makes everyone happy. I think we can trust them again

[scarlet heath]

I don't think the rest of us are trusting Unity anytime soon

[warped tundra]

Yep

[nocturne crow]

Maybe change would come at unite event

[fair vigil]

have we seen the new tos yet or no?

[bitter tinsel]

should i learn unreal or unity

Both or either

[wary sedge]

Bit of both? YOu might find one of them feels like a better fit for your skills.

[bitter tinsel]

which will run better on an apple silicon mac

[wary sedge]

I was chatting to a friend from a different company yesterday, they were having a day of Unreal training. The company has been using Untiy exclusively for the last few years.

This isn't because they plan to switch to Unreal, although it was probably prompted by the sudden TOS change, but the thinking was just that exposing everyone to an alternate Engine, even just for a day. Could be helpfull in how they develop in Unity, plus taking away any fear of the other engine in case the TOS do suddenly change again some day in the future.

[wary sedge]

I don't know, I've actually never uesd Unreal, I think I have installed it once or twice over the last decade, but never actually used it.

I can say though, that Unity runs really nicely on my Macbook M1 Pro. It is super fast and stable, no crashing that I can remember.

[bitter tinsel]

Unity

[sweet minnow]

There is no definite answer, it depends what you want to do
Start with learning 2D? Use unity or godot, if you don't want to use unity, I'd recommend the first option, due to more ressources being available

3D? Unreal or unity, godot just doesn't have much ressources for learning this stuff

So next thing is decide how far you want to go on the technical site. Just being an artist and want to create nice things? Unreal should serve you well with their blueprint system, which is powerfull and easy to use
Are you a programmer at heart, desperatly wanting to write you gamelogic in c#? Use unity

Do you not care about all of that and just want to make a game whatever it takes? Just pick a tutorial from one of these engines and start it doesn't matter

The whole pricing change only matters if you wsnt to do it as a job and not as a hobby, so that should be a question for later, pick one and start

[bitter tinsel]

What's new?

I hate pins

[lethal star]

I have a problem. 😦 im learning unreal and kinda got into it but now unity price plan changed on how we like it, Idk what to do now

[wary sedge]

What kind of game or project are you making?

[half crest]

This is a horrible horrible idea I feel like this will make unity lose more money than gain

[jolly apex]

Like we said, read the pins in the top right

[edgy yew]

You still haven't read the pins I'm guessing

[half crest]

I have read them but they don't explain much all they said are there are changes and they gave a few links

[jolly apex]

You didn't read them, otherwise you wouldn't spout such nonsense about the 20 cents

[half crest]

What do the forums say please summarize

[agile spruce]

If you're not going to click and read, don't post here.

[edgy yew]

Well, the short version is

• no more free edition
• price per install was increased to $5.00
• unity is no longer updating the editor until they get another 5 million sales added

[jolly apex]

They say to read the pins in the top right

[half crest]

5 DOLLARS? That's so crazy. And on top of that you can't get it for free

[edgy yew]

I'm not sure how long to let this go for ...

[agile spruce]

Better leave a strongly worded message on the forum post about it

[half crest]

Why wouldn't someone just go to Godot or unreal engine then, why would they want to spend that much money, this would make unity lose more won't it?

[agile spruce]

Yes, it would, if that were the changes.

[viscid ravine]

just make your game over 5$ lol

[agile spruce]

You're free to go to Godot and Unreal and let those communities know how outrageous thse changes are.

Be the hero that represents us all.

[half crest]

Then what are the changes?

[agile spruce]

They're pinned

[viscid ravine]

sorry to ruin the joke but

free edition extended to 200K$ yearly
Logo splash is not mandatory anymore for all versions
runtime fee only applies after 1 million yearly (correct me if I'm wrong), and gets replaced with a 2.5% revshare if it would be a lower bill

terms only apply to 2023 LTS and after

[lethal star]

none. just starting to learn atm. but now unity has improved their price plan including removing the splash screen which i hope they really do because if they do, i think i wanna go back unity

[bitter tinsel]

Lisent bro if unreal is working good for you like you got good hardware continue using it and forget unity and if its not working well use unity otherwise godot which I don't really recommend

[lethal star]

yea alot of people keep recommend godot but i just dont see it. im glad you dont see it as well haha. to me, 2D = unity, 3D= unreal. nothing can top these two

[gloomy bane]

if anyone hasn't yet, I'd highly recommend checking out the transcripts for the 2023 Q1 and Q2 earnings call board meetings - gives some mega insight into what they value in the company, the direction they want to take, and talk about coming announcements/changes we'll hear about in the next few months

[kindred olive]

lmao how is this channel still here and active

[bitter tinsel]

fr

[exotic jay]

Good channel

[bitter tinsel]

They gotta change the channel description to "Unity bad!!!!"

[patent lark]

If you don't have anything useful to add, don't say anything at all. We will be archiving the channel shortly.

[marble oyster]

Rip channel.

[plucky ivy]

#industry-news is not coming back?
cause this is #industry-news just renamed

[rigid moon]

that's what the mods said they where going to do, but i guess they now want to hide the evidence?

#archived-pricing-updates-talk message

[marble oyster]

Might become read-only, idk.
All that typing, only to react with a bin emoji.

[patent lark]

As I said:

If you don't have anything useful to add, don't say anything at all.
Please stop.

[marble oyster]

Well at least try to answer his question.

[sullen wave]

I would rather have a whole new channel than to turn this back into #industry-news after this whole fiasco.

[agile spruce]

Hide the evidence! You heard it here first folks, big conspiracy blown wide open!

Have fun sifting through the broken record, better get it all written down asap.

But anyway, we'll be redirecting to the forums, where these conversations are better suited (where Unity will actually read them)

[sullen wave]

The only evidence this channel contains is how this server should have an IQ threshold before you can post...

[agile spruce]

And the obsession with 1984

[rain ibex]

so after the 2nd Unity's towards-positive-change update notification will we continue to pursue for the next update with clicking to real-time check the pin every time we enter the channel per day or is that ppl will ditch and go away?

b ecause the thing is i dont used to be like this, real-time check the pin every day now since 9/12/2023, idk im not sure it is me only, if

[wary sedge]

Interesting to see the mood change here, it feels like some people are trying to retake the moral authority.
That will happen eventually, but not overnight.

THat's the thing about being humble and accepting mistakes, there is always a painfull period after any U-Turn where you want things to return to normal, but just wait it out. Eventually trust will be regained but it is too soon to expect miracles already.

[marble oyster]

Isn't there a saying somewhere along the lines of trust is easy to lose but takes decades to rebuild?

[wary sedge]

AH, ok, you send in one sentence what I was trying to say 🙂

[marble oyster]

Seems legit.

[rain ibex]

i cant be serious with the notification about the next news in the pin or am i wrong for this?

[agile spruce]

What are you actually saying, you're not making sense.

Anything in the pins are the latest informaion

[wary sedge]

This may be controversial, but well, personally I feel safer and more trustfull to Unity today than I did befor ethe whole TOS thing started.

My reasoning is, it sort of sets a precedent for what will happen again, if some really unpopular change is made then Unity have shown they can listen and ( fairly quickly ) respond appropriately.

Ok, at the time it was happening, the waiting seemed unbearable, but looking back now, things moved forward pretty quickly.
I also like the new TOS, and I like how much transparancy is now being offered up ( such as the fee calculator )

I'm also feeling reassured that the Unity developer community are kind of bad ass, they were able to communicate, Unite, formulate and broadcast very tight focussed critique, and apart from the disgusting 'bomb threat' or whatever it was, behaveed from what I could see sensibly throughout.

And they showed they they have some kind of muscle and ability to push back on Unity in the future.

So all in all, I feel safer now using Unity today then I did ever before.

Kind of backwards in way, I know.

[bitter tinsel]

Fair. There’s not much more that could be said

[rain ibex]

@agile spruce that is what im talking about, any suggestion would be appreciated, i pick the "unity news" role so i will be informed with the red [ 1 ] mark notification alert thingy on discord on unity group, right?

[bitter tinsel]

To be fair, the pins were a bit late for certain things

[agile spruce]

You will be informed if there is an update, and if the message posted in discord @tags the usergroup UnityNews. Though, there will likely be no more updates regarding this, is my guess.

[rain ibex]

alright gotcha

[agile spruce]

(Also the role will probably be removed once we start redirecting this topic to the forums)

[bitter tinsel]

Wasn’t the ping only used once? Regarding this channel

[agile spruce]

Yes, the idea to create the role came up late during the whole pricing update

It was someone's suggestion I believe

[bitter tinsel]

You should keep the role for #📢┃announcements and #497866432277643275 tbh

[prisma birch]

i'm starting with Unity lol

[rain ibex]

why is there no Unity video on unity YT channel and no Unity blog post on FB but i gotta keep track of the pricing updates blogs from the discord channel instead, i appreciate if it is on the official Unity's FB page if

[patent lark]

It was pinged twice during the course it was needed, it will be removed. You can subscribe to announcements and the blog in your own server, and we may consider making a new role for that purpose

[rain ibex]

what i mean is i once keep track of unity's FB page for the blogs instead, that is what i mean

[bitter tinsel]

They’re typically on Twitter (X) too I believe

[rain ibex]

oh okay, i see, thx for that info, gotcha

i see, there is a notify icon on twitter, we got this, again thx for these

[fair vigil]

Have we seen
New tos?

[plucky ivy]

so hes gonna start making godot tutorials? thats gonna drive away everyone whos potentially interested in coming to unity

why thumbs up? this is a bad thing... rip unity ever getting new people ever again

[dusky elk]

He's starting to learn Godot, unsure yet but there's interest towards that in his implications

[plucky ivy]

so he stopped using unity out of nowhere a couple years back and when theres an opportunity to help kill unity even further he hops onto the opportunity? damn

[dusky elk]

Based on his Twitter post, you can probably tell why he stopped using unity and jumped back to gaming development

[rigid moon]

unity deserves to be punished. they still haven't undone all the negative things they've done.

[plucky ivy]

if unity dies it punishes everyone who uses it too tho.

[rigid moon]

unity did that to themselves. if unity doesnt get punished its like a spoiled brat who gets no consequences for there actions and everyone despises them so its in unitys best interest if they want to come back from this

[plucky ivy]

ok but all the unity users are suffering too. and they didnt do anything to deserve it

[rigid moon]

nope they didn't its unfortunate that unity did that to them all.

[plucky ivy]

not only unity, cause apparently brackeys is also now trying to punish unity users

[rigid moon]

as are many other youtubers. unity deserves it. unfortunate that unity users are ones who suffer.

[plucky ivy]

let me guess, destroying the hopes and dreams of all unity users is a sacrifice you're willing to make?

[agile spruce]

@rigid moon How long do you intend to keep going on this. Go post on the forums where we're going to be redirecting this conversation soon enough.

[rigid moon]

? what is this the 2000's why would i go to a forum, i want to talk with the current active unity community, which in the modern era is using live chat via discord. who would want to go back to using forums lol

[agile spruce]

The forum is where Unity will see these posts. We're locking up this channel.

Do you have any intention of actually using this discord for anything other than all this constant posting you've been doing in the #archived-pricing-updates-talk channel?

Seeing as that's all you've done so far since joining.

[willow crypt]

Y'all just need to shut it down just sitting around complaining about the complainers complaining

[agile spruce]

If we had the ability, we would have yes. We're waiting on Unity to coordinate it.

[plucky ivy]

seems to me like he 100% wont be making unity tutorials and its gonna be godot, leaving the unity community in shambles and on the verge of death

[rigid moon]

probably go back to lurking, been fun to be apart of the community for a while meet a bunch of cool people have ton of fun discussions and stand in solidarity with people from all walks of life while we all panic around unity shooting itself in the foot.
I'm not going to go to forums discord community>forum community.

[sweet minnow]

that is not what he said he said that this is something that got requested and that he started learning other engines

oh must have missed that

[rigid moon]

https://forum.unity.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ibb.co%2FMf8yNzv%2FF7-HUwxh-XQAAN4-PH.jpg&hash=0c8b1198c0c3f7546f8caa9467560d86

[plucky ivy]

"we all panic"? don't you mean "you all panic"? cause u seem to hate unity

[bitter tinsel]

Will the channel be deleted completely or just set to read only?

[edgy yew]

I'd vote burn it to the ground, let the flames light the way. Not sure anything in here was worth keeping (as it was mostly Q&A with some pins). But I'm no mod and archiving data is free on discord 😄

[agile spruce]

The plan is locked and then eventually archived.

I'd love to remove it, but we don't need 1984 conspiracies right now lol

[edgy yew]

Hah so true

[stone marten]

Will industry news come back?

[willow crypt]

If it goes under 100 views for a bit unity will likely delete it

[agile spruce]

Yes

[sturdy star]

Anyone know how the install charge will affect using unity for spatial.io?

[frigid patio]

why cant the channel go back to industry news? Its literally still the topic message

just change it back big industry announcements happen all the time 🙃

locked and archived is silly just change the title #industry-news just like that

[twin cypress]

as open source fan i really cannot find any reason to call it objectively bad news even tho i am partially unity reliant and unity recent standups fuck up my career

[teal basin]

For some industry news
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/fortnite-epic-layoffs-1.6980953

[sweet minnow]

So we are back to industry news?
This layoffs sucks for all the people who have just lost their job and it is terrible place to be in
But this what kindof predictable, if you wsk me. Lets face it fortnite is now a few years old and doesn't have the same hype as it used to have. Covid is over and people don't spend as much time inside anymore (that is why nearly every tech stock (I have seen) dropped), that the growth is slower than expected is for me expected
It certainly is a dificult decission to make, but having a stable business model will be better in the long run

Like this is easy to say for me, because this was not my job, but I would much rather have them to secure their financials now than to pull of some sketchy price change in the future. There is rarely a scenario where this ends good, it is always pick your poison

[dark gulch]

Whaaaaaat, pricing updates is no longer at the top of the channel category??

[zenith echo]

Same as other distribution platforms, I imagine. If you make over $1,000,000 on a game, you’d have to pay 2.5% rev share or a price per engagement, whichever is cheaper or more preferable, regardless of where it is distributed.

Try out their Runtime Fee Estimator, and FAQ.

[warm mist]

Spatial.io is the one distributing the runtime so they would be the ones footing the bill in that case. Those worlds are not separate executables

[zenith echo]

I think that was from the fluctuating clarifications after v1.0, but I don’t see that mentioned any more in the latest FAQ, unless I’ve missed it.

[warm mist]

Spatial.io is not a storefront like Steam. It's a platform like Roblox. There is only one runtime and that's from Spatial.io. unless it's self hosted now. In which case the webgl rules would apply. Kind of moot point anyway because I don't believe anyone is making $1mil/yr through that site.

[gray wasp]

I'm seeing a lot of vitriol come from these updates that I'm guessing I shouldn't use Unity. Is it still worth using, despite people's hurt trust?

[zenith echo]

Yeah, I don’t how that would work then, if you also can make money from stuff you create on there, and you use Unity to create it. Might be a question for Unity. 😆

[zenith echo]

I’m still going to use it. Some are die hard Nope. So, you just have to consider the risks/benefits for your particular situation.

[gray wasp]

I have to use it for a class, so I want to use the skills from it. But long-term I'm scared of my reputation.

[sweet minnow]

What I recommend is learning a new engine, not to use it, but being able to evaluate it
You should always pick the right tool for the job anyway and learning concepts of different engines, makes switching less scary and can even help you optimize your workflow
So stick with unity while you have to and learn unreal next to it and for your next project pick based on what is best suited for that project
There is no right or wrong here

[lapis grotto]

You can learn many engines. Unity, CryEngine, Godot, UE

I would recommend looking into UE and Godot for now, but time will tell

[thorny dew]

When will you all ever learn that you cannot talk about Unity on Discord. These things are diametrically opposed.

[fair vigil]

i ask once more
has the new tos been made available to see or not yet?

[stuck cargo]

Not yet. Takes a while to write these things.

[mortal stratus]

Lots of lawyers have to pore over everything and dot all the i's and cross all the t's

[torpid bronze]

Guys, in general: What are your reasons to keep going with Unity after all this mess with paying policy?

[mortal stratus]

• Years of experience and familiarity with the engine
• The basically 0% chance of any of the pricing updates being relevant to me or my games in the first place
• The updated terms seem fine and still cheaper than other options (especially UE)

[devout briar]

only true ECS-capable engine, in my knowledge. Other than that? Not much

[last swallow]

They still going to charge per download when 2024 come ?

[mortal stratus]

read the pins

[last swallow]

wheres the pins

[still mulch]

https://www.google.com/search?&q=unity+pricing+changes&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[dark gulch]

I like how people earlier on in this debacle were hyping up unreal and epic and how epic is a good company, and then epic goes and fires around 900 people

[devout briar]

We're at the peak of a financial bubble and interest rates are extremely high, which means borrowing money is extremely expensive.
The majority of tech companies are going to experience layoffs, if they haven't soon.

[dark gulch]

Yeah, sadly

[junior sage]

The majority of tech companies are going to experience layoffs, if they haven't soon.
It's already happened:
https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/28/tech-layoffs-2023-list/

[shell path]

Guys i have a question, after Unity open letter are you decided to continue with the Unity? Why?

[patent lark]

👆

[bitter tinsel]

Most people ignore all of these points for some reason lol

[plush ibex]

does anyone think its a good idea to swap over to unreal? or at least learn it

[dark gulch]

Idk man, I always feel like execs could easily take a pay cut to save stuff from being laid off, but that's just me

[sick night]

This is why you always float around with a second linkedin account with a picture of your brother on it

[dark gulch]

I mean that's up to you, unreal is a fantastic engine and pretty easy to learn, I would say it's always nice to have multiple tools on your belt. Now, if you want to switch, that's up to you, I can't say for sure if it's a good idea for you and your situation

[plush ibex]

just starting to get more into game dev before end of high school

[dark gulch]

Okay I'm just gonna agree to disagree. Exec paychecks are in the millions, I feel it's much easier to skip out on getting your yacht repainted than it it to lay off 900 people. "job security is your responsibility"... Yeah I'm not even gonna go into how awful it is to say that, so I'm not

I'm just gonna save both of our times here and just tell ya that I wish not to discuss this with you, you can keep your paragraphs to yourself

No, I'm just not in the mood to debate why capitalism friggin sucks, that's far outta the scope of this channel, anyway.

Have a good day

okay dude we may disagree on a fundamental level but that's waayy too far, brother

@agile spruce @patent lark sorry for the ping but you two are ones i see online atm. I think things are spinning out of control here

[dark gulch]

true true, well idk, Unity is an easy and performant engine to learn, but Unreal is also fairly easy to learn, and has a much prettier default look. YOu can make your games look pretty good in it pretty easily

@plush ibex how well do you know unity, how long have you used it?

[patent lark]

!mute 573587650791997461 7d inappropriate insults and a desire to continue dredging up unwanted conversation. This is not "respect".

[dark gulch]

thanks, sorry for the ping again but i just really didn't vibe with the mental illness comment, way outta line
nothing but love to the mods ❤️

[patent lark]

Totally inappropriate, as was continuing this dead conversation 💀

[dark gulch]

ye

[fair vigil]

thank you

[edgy yew]

You should always learn. Unity is frigging awesome. Unreal is frigging awesome. Godot, and all the others too.

I started very much pre-windows where we had to make our own engines from scratch - I still remember how to create raw 3D from lines. You are limited only by your creativity now a days - and the more tools you learn and experience the more free that creativity becomes

[plush ibex]

a couple months for school but have just started making a game that i actually have interest and passion in

[dark gulch]

i see, well as Lloyd said, it wouldn;t hurt to learn unreal, just to have it in your back pocket in case you ever need it

[autumn niche]

its good to be adaptable and know a few things

[dark gulch]

who knows, maybe in the process of learning unreal, you'll find you click with it more and switch to it? Only you can decide what engine to stick to at the end of the day

[autumn niche]

like had a job ages ago where i used flash, well we all know how that went, so was good i already knew a few things and can easily learn what ever is needed

[plush ibex]

yea just gotta play around and learn new shit

[dark gulch]

ye

[lethal star]

just when i swap to unreal, there's mass firings happening 😭 that often doesnt come with good news aftermath. Time to go back to unity

[plush ibex]

flash games were the best man, friv was the peak of my childhood

[dark gulch]

well to be fair, firings don't mean it'll necessarily effect you as an unreal dev, but yeah i understand the worry

[autumn niche]

they overhired and bought a few companies over hte last few years like every other company did when VC and debt was cheap. now debt is expensive so everyone is tech is scaling down

[rigid moon]

how is that a problem? unity having over double the employees of unreal is somehow the standard that should be aimed for? the more employees the better(the more money, the more they need to charge 15cents a download)?

[patent lark]

Can we not dredge up this topic, you've mentioned employee count at least 10 times before

[rigid moon]

was directly responding to his point, I don't understand how its bad to learn unreal engine just because they fired some people... why is that bad and not good and why does either way have an effect on you as a dev.

[patent lark]

Unity's layoffs directly resulted in them shelving various community-related releases, including a large demo project. It's self evident why layoffs have a detriment, the things people were working on have less (or no) staff. I think their reaction to it is weird, as Unity's already gone through similar, but it does have an effect on you, and everyone is sick of these nonsense headcount comparisons. They have all proven willing to do layoffs, you don't need to discuss it as if the numbers are not an already carefully considered equation

[dark gulch]

yeah what vertx said!

oh this is gonna be a fun essay to read

[rigid moon]

do you mean unreal or is unity doing layoffs to? Whos reaction is weird the person I was responding to? If so I agree thats why I responded to ask for clarification because I don't understand why learning a engine is bad because some people got fired because they dropped a feature because as you said unity does that to so unity is now bad engine to learn because of that? Doesn't make sense to me.

Though on the forums people are praising unreal for been able to let go and lamenting unitys lesser desire to do so.
"At least Epic know when to ditch unprofitable gamedev unrelated acquisitions, unlike Unity who put the increased running costs on the engine users. " - forum post

Number comparison is a complaint lots of people have and is bringing it back to unity and the pricing updates, since this topic is "pricing updates" trying to bring most comments back on topic. Instead of just general "industry news" which would be fine to talk about unreals layoffs on its own.

[patent lark]

Though on the forums people are praising unreal for been able to let go and lamenting unitys lesser desire to do so.
They laid off ~600 people earlier in the year. This sort of talk is just completely ignorant, hence why I don't want it rehashed over and over here, it's nonsense.

[rigid moon]

This is what the forum is currently talking about yesterday/today along with brackeys announcement. You said you where going to redirect to the forums but we aren't allowed to talk about what people are talking about on the forums currently?
https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1707408260330922054 (28/29 sep 2023)

[patent lark]

I don't moderate the forums, I moderate this space, and I'm not going to have you bring up this headcount stuff every single day until this space gets locked, just drop it already

[dark gulch]

yeah i think this topic has been talked to death, there are more productive things to be discussed, i feel

[rigid moon]

like what? keeping in mind this hasn't been changed back to "industry news" what topics related to "pricing updates" are more productive to be discussed? every topic has been discussed million times over.

[dark gulch]

yeah, so... maybe there aren't any topics to really talk on

except maybe the topic of praising any company too much, or putting any company on a pedalstal. Corps are not your friends after all. Epic is all about money, same as any other company, we devs have to becareful not to idolize any one company and stay critical of em equally

[rigid moon]

that topic has been discussed million times over, unreal has no proven history of trying to rip off there devs (ignoring pubg lol) and have been very generous to their devs so there fairly "safe" to rely on, unity has a proven track record of trying to do retroactive TOS changes and include dodgy things like install fees so they are not "safe" to rely on.

You shouldn't "idolize/trust" any of them but you shouldn't be critical of them all equally, unity deserves has earned to be critical of(which is why so many people "mistrust" unity), unreal not so much.

[dark gulch]

i disagree with your last point. WHat i mean is to not let any company's misdoings slide just because they've done so much good previously. Yes, Epic has treated devs alot more nicely than Unity, but that doesn't mean that Epic is a perfect company by any means, and could any day choose to betray its devs with a change that hurts them. That's what i mean by staying critical of all companies

[rigid moon]

Yes they could, but to treat them with the same amount of scepticism as you should treat unity is unfair to unreal.
This is unitys bed they should be the one and only ones to lie in it.

Yes dont trust and hold all companies to account, but there is no reason to assume unreal or godot or anyone else will do what unity did, they could, and if they do they should get punished, but its highly unlikely and its a safer bet to go forwards assuming its less likely they will.

[dark gulch]

"highly unlikely" but the change is never zero... I agree with everything you said, but you shouldn't feel too safe with any one engine, no matter their history.
simple as.

[rigid moon]

Sure but just because unity cheated on you doesn't mean you go into every other relationship expecting them to cheat. Sure they could, but its unhealthy to go into relationships with that mindset and unfair levels of scrutiny and skepticism
It's a waste of mental energy wondering what if and actual energy searching through txt's/TOS blogposts etc to see if there doing anything dodgy. If they have shown no signs of been dodgy.

[dark gulch]

okay you are blantantly not reading what im typing and are just obsessed with "winning" this argument, which is why i've grown tired of debating in this chat in general, ugh.

im not saying to go through the ToS of whatever engine your using every 2 seconds and living in constant paranoia, im saying that you shouldn't dismiss bad news of a company's wrong doing with "oh but they still did this and this well! and this other company is SO much worse so it's not that bad!" what i mean by "staying critical" is to just be on the look out and not dismiss bad news so easily, lest you lull yourself into a sense of false security and then you get stuck with a crappy ToS. that's it, that's all, im not saying to treat all engines like a toxic relationship, im just saying that Epic is capable of being a scummy company, not as bad as unity, but capable.

that's it, that's that, and that's done. Just please either see we're on similar pages and relent, or just agree to disagree. god i FRIGGIN hate debating

[serene field]

why dont we talking about something cool like monster trucks instead

[tranquil moat]

And if it is a house fire that badly hurts people due to a reason that is determined to be preventable, that may result in new building codes to improve the odds in the future. Just because a construction company hasn't ever done any doggy, doing an inspection to confirm building codes are followed is important, not a waste of time/energy.

[agile spruce]

Because that's not on topic?

[rigid moon]

yep that's why you do investigations prior to building/using an engine/go on dates before committing.
As it stands unreal as no reason to be weary of them doing the same thing unity has.

(How can you hate debating, its incredibly fun lol)

[dark gulch]

yeah im thinking im just gonna stop looking at this channel, i was glued to it during the whole debacle due to morbid curiosity and interest in people's thoughts, and the negativity was draining. understandable why there was so much of it, but jeez, i just wanna have fun making games, and doom and gloom is not my vibe. Def think i need to just get outta here and continue my positive outlook on life

[dark gulch]

because ||dunder||heads like you feel the need to keep going on and on and ON until you felt like you "won", its quite annoying and just draining. eugh.

do you have a rebuttal to my previous reply, or can i go about my life in peace now?

[tranquil moat]

There is plenty of red flags with Epic to be weary of but going through them all is out of scope of this forum. A TOS is code which controls what you can do and expect just like the game engine code itself. Despite the TOS not being traditional computer code, it should still always be reviewed in addition to the reset of the benefits/limits of the engine.

[visual arch]

everybody just write your own engine smh

[rigid moon]

what do you want me to say? we agree. they could.

I'm just saying there is no reason to expect it.

[dark gulch]

THank you, im not saying epic is as bad as unity, or to expect them to pull something like this, OR that unreal is just as "unsafe" as unity, all im saying is we have shouldn't put anything on a pedastal! idk HOW William can't just see my point in that

[dark gulch]

Okay, there we go, we're on the same page. We don't need to expect epic to do anything super bad, but to just recognize they can do it. Thank you!

alright, i think that's it for my misadventures in this channel, i need a break form all the doom and gloom and senseless circular debates. It was "fun" while it lasted, but i am MORE than ready for the industry-talk channel to return, holy moly
i leave you all with a Tatu, thanks again:

[devout briar]

Why are you pretending like you can read the minds of Unreal's CEO and executives?
Your whining about the layoffs shows how little you understand about the current situation of the global market.
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

[hexed arch]

Really don't need to continue with any of this.

[tranquil moat]

You are welcome. I understand you aren't saying Epic is as bad as Unity. I don't see doing a license review as a sign that a company is bad. I also don't see expecting Unity to improve their license as being a sign of hate or fear. It is possible to want to se a license terms changed to provide a better foundation and have the desire come from a place of love for the company or product.

[raven burrow]

i just read the message history and I'm going insane. anyway best not continue that. so it seems things are finally dying down here. less active and the channel was moved down on the list. seems that besides the trust issues the situation is pretty much over. that's nice. it took a while for it to fully die down.

[wanton latch]

The channel wasn't moved

[queen cairn]

WWWilliam has a habit of waving pitchforks in the dark not knowing who he is swinging at

he isnt here for good faith debate

[rain ibex]

we gotta love Unity anyway because it is pointless to hate it as a whole without considering the others, no more point to debate further imo that is why this channel is becoming dead.

[slim dock]

Hi everyone, we have locked this channel (and removed the associated role) as it’s served its purpose of giving the community a place to discuss the runtime fee changes while they were introduced and amended. We acknowledge that there are still remaining concerns and open questions. To discuss them and stay informed, please use the official thread on the forums and refer to the official FAQ. We plan on introducing forum channels shortly to replace the lost industry channels and expect further changes in the coming weeks.

⭐ Useful links:

Open Letter: https://blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee
Runtime Fee Calculator: https://unity.com/runtime-fee-estimator
Pricing Updates/FAQ: https://unity.com/pricing-updates
ToS Github Reinstated: https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService
Terms of Service: https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service
Terms of Service - Legacy: https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy