archived-pricing-updates-talk

[fair vigil]

i dont like that to open steam games you need to have steam launcher load
i wish you could just like directly get the game like with itch.io

[static arrow]

i want more drama, please

[thorny dew]

Did your parents put you up for adoption every time you made a mistake or something?

[slim bough]

This isn't true. You can release DRM free titles on Steam.

[wary smelt]

You guys can complain about monopolies, Shit, I'm no fan either. But I'd like to see all the long term projects using this engine not die

[frank iron]

not every game with free purchase price require to bill unity. only those making revenue. I believe Helltaker is not making revenue.

[fair vigil]

im not really talking about the fee im just talking about how if i want to play a game i got on steam i need to go through steam to get to the game

[worn orbit]

No, but they didn't give hundreds of millions of dollars regardless of how many inexcusable mistakes I made either.

[slim bough]

No you don't, That's up to the devs

[fair vigil]

it seems ive been a fool for way too long

[mortal atlas]

Feel free to trash on this but I feel like Unity missed a golden opportunity. Royalty in the same way that unreal is doing it would work for them. They could also be supporting their game dev by creating a platform to promote and help sell games made in Unity in the same style as Valve and Epic store. Such a move would have made a lot more sense and in the long run most likely would have given them much greater revenue. I'd still like to see something like this happen. I'd much rather pay a flat percent rate than random install rate.

[slim bough]

Witcher 3 is an example of a completely DRM free release. Can buy it on steam, install, refund and the game still works 100% fine (dont do this though ofc)

[edgy yew]

They are finally starting to swing that way 🙂

[fair vigil]

time to make my 3rd steam account because i forgot the password and email to the first two

[near crane]

unfortunatedly the end-customers choose to be on steam so, we aint got much choise there if we wanna make money, I feel your pain bro

[mortal atlas]

That's good to hear.

[near crane]

for real, imagine if Unity opened a Games Store with 10% cut, that'd be mad rich LOL

[mortal atlas]

Exactly

[near crane]

They already got an asset store, so why can't they just make a games launcher/store, it's actually ridiculus when you think a bout it...

[mortal atlas]

They say 50% of games are made within Unity. Great, promote them then. Give your dev's more selling power and take a cut through your own store. Even with the added % royalty if you make X revenue, that would still be a win.

[static arrow]

people say unreal this unreal that, but the engine is acutally stable and worth the money spending ( ecept yo don't know anything about C++ then RIP ) Unity i'm still salty about the bug for 2 fking years did not fixed

[slim bough]

Why would they

[wary smelt]

I do not trust these motherfuckers with a store front for games

[teal basin]

It would have the same issue as Epic and Itch. If people decide to use Steam, it doesn't matter whatever Unity get out.

[edgy yew]

Most store fronts take about 30% of revenue. It can be profitable

[mortal atlas]

Completely understandable given their latest action.

[strong glade]

Any updates about the pricing? Have unity announced anything?

[static arrow]

no

[fair vigil]

damn going through steam cyberpunk 2077 is unexpectedly cheap
i've gotten way too used to seeing games being unreasonably overpriced for no reason

[slim bough]

No one gonna use the Unity storefront homie 30% less of $0 is still 0

[edgy yew]

A bit of news leaks in the pins

[frank iron]

no official only leak

[mortal atlas]

Which is why the royalty fee would benifit them quite a bit.

[cerulean lintel]

nothing offical.

[near crane]

you say that but u still probably use steam and give steam 30% for every game you purchase

[slim bough]

Yes, because people use steam.

[wary smelt]

they probably won't go through with what was leaked judging by the reaction...then again, they tried to pull this shit to begin with so they are dumb as rocks

[slim bough]

Epic has spent more money than Unity makes just on giving out free games on Epic to create a userbase for it. Unity can't do that.

[near crane]

do you think it's worth giving 30% of that purchase money to steam instead of convincing your friends to chat/play on another platform?

[empty raptor]

so they did door in the face but ended up slamming themselves in the face

[fair vigil]

its too powerful
Itch.io is better

[slim bough]

If your userbase exclusively consists of people you talk to then none of this really matters

[silver orchid]

You have more friends than steam has customers?

[chilly swallow]

ya cuz its where most ppl get games. If you use a less popular platform, u get less potential buyers
um also, steam had this for a while, it wasnt out of nowhere

[limpid vine]

he’s the ex ceo of EA. He is used to weathering large amounts of hate.

[fair vigil]

can you donate to developers through steam?

[near crane]

then why do you buy the products on steam, you haven't given me a real reason, you just said "everyone is there"

[empty raptor]

or you could yk, post on itch.io, a company that doesn't now have a very bad history

[vast seal]

Heh. But just a short recap, of the relevant statement in the Bloomberg article, i.e. the tentative new plan being described like this: "Unity will limit fees to 4% of a game’s revenue for customers making over $1 million" - note that this can also mean that [Unity will limit fees] [to 4% of a game's revenue for customers making over $1 million]. In other words, Unity would limit these fees in such a manner that they charge install fees only from customers making over $1 million, capping the total at 4% game revenue. (And which ever interpretation of the article is correct, it might be completely different from what comes out in the official statement later, anyway.)

[limpid vine]

even if, that is not a long term viable solution for industry

[mortal atlas]

They didn't need too. Of course now, with their reputation as tarnished as it is, it's a tall order. Had they started out with the % royalty after 1 million in sales like Unreal and opened a Unity specific store to boot, things would have gone much differently. People might even have started looking into their store with excitement. Now it's just a pipe dream.

[cerulean lintel]

dont think so.

[slim bough]

I've had no problems with it, everyone is there, great controller capabilities, great key system, cool built in multiplayer stuff, synced saves, easy to use and manage etc. etc. etc.

[empty raptor]

because steam is good and has alot of games and features

[fair vigil]

reason 1 why itch io is simply better
im temporarily being biased because im annoyed i have to go through all this back and forth to make a steam account since i lost access to my last 2 out of bad memory

[cerulean lintel]

i use steam a lot but itch is also really good

[near crane]

Now i'm getting logical responses lol

[static arrow]

my theory, just theory, they won't do anything, the twitter is just a bait to keep the devs down for amount of time

[empty raptor]

its funny to me that all this happens and you are like hmm unity store sounds like a good idea

[viral talon]

yo does anyone have any scripts where you kill a enemy with a bullet i need it rn

[fair vigil]

it seems itch takes a 10% cut from each sale

[slim bough]

The 30% Steam takes isn't even worth talking about unless you actually have other storefronts that could at-best match the profit you would be losing off steam.
And for a majority of people that does not exist

[mortal atlas]

So many dev turned off their IronSense ads. They are hitting them where it hurts.

[near crane]

I'm not saying I would support a unity store, i'm just speaking from unities perspective, if they made one, with equal controller support etc to steam, they'd probably be better off making money than trying to milk us devs cuts, cause we'd save money from them buying from Unity, over Steam, its an end-customer case, not business to business case

[slim bough]

man they can't even afford to make their engine what makes you think they can afford to make a competitive marketplace

[fair vigil]

ok i added my phone number this time
no shot i lose this account too

[near crane]

their existing asset store makes me think they can afford it

[static arrow]

they are still doing it or they saw the twitter and be like , let's see how it goes and turn back on?, i think the twitter is a bait

[empty raptor]

idk what they can do but they need to fire the current ceo
i honestly dont really care I just wanna finish the games I have on unity and then move to godot

[mortal atlas]

Agreed. At this point it would be a very tall order. I was just saying that had they started out with that instead of install fees, it would have been received much better.

[slim bough]

The Unity Asset store feels like its one strong gust of wind away from folding haha

[fair vigil]

do yall know what Lies of P is made on?

[empty raptor]

Punity

[near crane]

yeah I 100% agree with you lol, after all the PR fails they just did it's not as realistic anymore, we just speculation what unity COULD have done bros

[empty raptor]

unreal engine it seems

[fair vigil]

hmmm
one day ill attain the game
that day is definitely not today

[full oriole]

I hope we don't forget about the fact that we have to pay 4x as much to get rid of the now (even more) tainted splash screen with the removal of Unity Plus, it's a necessity after this fiasco

[mortal atlas]

I just hope they can recoup the situation somehow. I'm not young. I don't feel like I have time to relearn all the tools I've learned over the past almost decade within Unity. If Unity dies, I'd probably be in my 50s making my first game. F that.

[near crane]

I am not disagreeing with this, I mean they lost me alrdy

[slate hill]

you can release steam games without steam api?

[high mural]

Just finished turning the pricing model with the expected 4% cap into a spreadsheet it doesn't seem that bad after playing with the numbers

[near crane]

completely understandable, i'm also heading that direction.. If this happened a few years later i'd be doomed

[empty raptor]

im in such a bind with my game releasing in a few weeks. Do I pay unity to get rid of the splash screen or do I leave it in and look even worse than normal

[mortal atlas]

Of course it doesn't hurt to keep learning different stuff. With all that being said, I wish you all good luck in these trying times. I hope you all have successful games that support your studio and family.

[near crane]

paying away splash screen is the better marketting move, but that's if your game is a game that would sell to start with

[empty raptor]

its gonna be on steam so I HOPE so

[thorny dew]

Wait for the announcement, you might not have to worry about this

[near crane]

this is also true, let the storm calm and then decide lol

[empty raptor]

already 100 dollars invested
I want to get rid of the screen anyway because it looks kinda unprofess but maybe I can do a background and make it look good

[full oriole]

If it turns out Unity Plus is really gone, you could get one month of Unity Pro, release your game, and not renew it 😂

[empty raptor]

plus wont be gone until january right?

[near crane]

if i remember correctly it wont be until january yeah, nvm I was wrong KEK

[edgy yew]

Gone now for buying iirc

[full oriole]

Yeah, it's gone unless you were already on it

[empty raptor]

WTH

[high mural]

ngl it's been a hot minute since i last had unity plus but didn't it lock you in for a year on the subscription even if you had monthly or am i totally mis-remembering there.

[near crane]

the comeback for Unity Splashscreens is here...

[wary smelt]

Lol, they aren’t going to get away with it. Not unless the want to get sued by platform-holders

[empty raptor]

so I need to pay 185 fucking dollars just to get rid of this splashscreen oh my god
genuinely stupid bullshit

[wary smelt]

I’d be shocked if they’re dumb enough to stick with their gun

[high mural]

Yeah the site says annual plan for pro so i think they do force you into paying for a year at minumum even if you pay monthly

[empty raptor]

no way

[high mural]

Oh yep check the FAQ https://unity.com/pricing

[full oriole]

so 2K USD to get rid of the splash screen? lmao fade me

[near crane]

Damn Unity really pulled on over us this time

[empty raptor]

I dont got 2000 dollars dude 💀 thats so silly
If the trial period works then sure but then Ill just be stuck not being able to update the game

[edgy yew]

No, you get the 'opportunity' to pay 185/month.

You also have to commit to a whole year. (Fixed that as I realized you haven't pro for a year yet)

[near crane]

Don't do it

[empty raptor]

with the background it doesn't look to badf

[edgy yew]

Is it better than spending 2k ? Probably 😄

[empty raptor]

I can add my own logo and make it look more professional

[strong glade]

I honestly think that the decision will get reversed. There's no way they won't cuz it impacts Microsoft, Xbox, Playstation, and nintendo and they will probably get super pissed at unity and get them to reverse this

[strong glade]

That's not at all the main issue. Literally all of the gaming industry is affected by this and it's more than just a little splash screen that's a problem

[edgy yew]

A lot of those companies also pay unity millions for their platforms to be supported. The company gets paid from all sides. Sounds like they aren't going down that same path now though (rumor news post in pins)

[scarlet heath]

official announcement?

[static arrow]

none

[near crane]

not yet :l

[strong glade]

Exactly, they all will get charged from this fee in one way or another and they will not let it slide

[silver orchid]

We should be getting a cheque from unity for every day of suffering they put us through

[wary smelt]

This effects everyone. John Fuckhead thought this was gonna be easy. He thought it would be just like screwing dumbfuck gamers. Turns out platform holders and devs aren’t to be fucked with

[edgy yew]

Yeah, but what I mean is, xbox, Sony, Meta, Apple, etc. They all pay Unity both licensing fees every year, as well as contracting the Unity staff, to build the plugins for their platforms.

Unity then also sells and monetizes to its user base. And gets paid a percent for any Unity platform you use. I just mean, regardless of the runtime tax, they already get paid by everyone on all sides in the equation.

[static arrow]

let's do like twitter do, but twitter has no competities, Unity has a ton

[limpid vine]

He’s a professional fucktard. He probably prepared for several different negative responses.

[mortal atlas]

Oh hey and they really should start making games in-house too. More income from that plus better publicity. Idk probably makes too much sense. Let's just go with an install fee instead am I right? xD

[near crane]

Gigaya or w/e their game was called.. ohwai- it got cansled

[teal basin]

The least I expect from them is talking with platform holder about this changes. They probably don't care since they can always move the burden to their customers and not going to lie they have probably a deal with each one of them.

[mortal atlas]

Hah yeah, I remember that. At the time I thought it was genious. They start making games, get extra cash from that plus it makes em look good.

[native pendant]

Not sure I buy the leaks

[teal basin]

It was clear they never planned to sell it as a game but a project that you could learn from.

[native pendant]

I think it was a leak to test waters though

[wary smelt]

But the people he’s pissed off aren’t just gamer dudes on Reddit. After all, MS and Sony get a cut from EA’s MTX.

But this? He’s asking the platform-holders pay him money. And he’s making it so that less people can install and sell games on the platforms.

Unity is fucked

[tiny prism]

xD

[near crane]

thinking same, big-brain business move to see how devs reacts

[native pendant]

I don't know if I mind the leak or not though. 4% cap is decent.

[near crane]

if only it was at 200k.. and not 1m, still sus

[ripe walrus]

I think we all agree on how to react though -- what the terms are means literally nothing as long as the terms include the language that lets them retroactively change them with no recourse.

[mortal atlas]

200k gross is nasty though.

[static arrow]

people say it is still better than Unreal, but they didn't even reached 1mil profit yet

[near crane]

if cap starts at 1m+ (as leak mentions), devs between 200k - 1m can still get fucked by installs

[indigo sparrow]

damange is already done. If that would be in start statment, I doubt people would have reacted that much. tho i doubt it will bee that way, as if unity already loosing devs, they will want at least extra moneyyyy

[mortal atlas]

I'd hope they would take away this installs crap with a percent royalty. If they don't, this is just worse.

[unborn cove]

Unreal still waves the royalty fee for sales through their store

[ripe walrus]

4% cap would be decent if it was locked in, but as it is it's just basically Unity being nice until they decide they're sick of it. They can pull that cap whenever, they can increase rates whenever including raising them to ridiculous rates, and they probably will try it again on their way to eventual bankruptcy

[solemn notch]

i guess you could say... its gross...
...
alr im out

[spring bridge]

200k * .2 = 40k
200k - 40k = 160k

[wary smelt]

They may have broken Europeans Union law with that TOS shit

[static arrow]

EU law will not allow the game set sail there, and on top of it you will have to deal with some people willingly to bankrupting you with multiple install loop

[teal basin]

You only start calculating after the 200k threshold and tbh you should always pay a licence at that point. So it only cost 2000k per seat

[native pendant]

Yeah, if you hit 200k, you just buy a pro license and by that point, can afford.

[mortal atlas]

200k gross isn't 200k

[near crane]

its still 0.15$ per install after Unity Pro plan, so not true

[mortal atlas]

Taxes, Steam fees or epic fees, employees, gear, assets, etc... It adds up fast.

[ripe walrus]

They almost definitely did! (I wish I lived in the EU, sadly US law looks a lot more 50/50 on whether this is legal.)

I think they'll eventually probably be forced to back off on that but there's nothing in the leak that suggests they're going to back off on it in now...

[spring bridge]

i heard by default unity auto upgrades you when you hit the money threshold which is why the free version getting a tax is werid unless they plan on making it so you are no longer forced to upgrade

[native pendant]

It was, the leaks tells us nothing.

[edgy yew]

What I will say, is at 1m$ Rev, you should have a team of 10 at least and would be paying approx 20k in pro licenses. If you made anything non games though in that time, you are automatically forced to industry, and now paying 50k in subscription fees.

Comparatively, you'd need your game to sell 2m$ on Unreal to pay the same to them.

[teal basin]

You assume the game phone home but I am sure this is not how they are planning to do it. It is not precise and as you mention probably illegal.

[native pendant]

It says like 3 things in the leak, not enough to know everything imo. Personally I would like this to only exist in Unity 2023 and above.

[static arrow]

ok back to work , people

[tall sun]

No

[near crane]

if they ensure the safety of the 200k - 1m range on top of what they mentioned in leak i'd find it "workable", but if its only what they said in leak, the vulnerability for 200k - 1m range still exist and is unacceptable

[wary smelt]

I think someone at Unity intentionally leaked that to Schreier to test out waters. Doubt that they will actually go through with anything

[native pendant]

We only know half of the leak, if leak is true.

[near crane]

it is very weird they said specifically "1m+" in leak and not "200k+", but yes, it's just a leak :V

[mortal atlas]

What leak do you speak off? Is it on reddit or something?

[dark gulch]

Yee, I'm gonna make a number 1 jam!

[vast seal]

As I pointed out a moment ago, it isn't worded in such a manner in the leak that it means there is vulnerability in the 200k - 1m range. Note that there is only the Bloomberg article, the other article references and interprets that one.

[floral zinc]

is this channel for the fee thing

[static arrow]

tbh, if you have free time while waiting for their statement, you should spend time to test on other engine than chatting here because if things getting worse you still have something to work on, goodluck

[near crane]

but it is though, since it says the 4% cap applies at 1m+ that automatically makes any number under 1m vulnerable

[unborn cove]

I've tested O3DE, Stride and currently building Unreal from source code.

Edit: Oh Flax too.

[cerulean lintel]

tbh just wait for an offical annoucment. weve said one is coming.

[teal basin]

And then from 2M+ you pay a lot more. Also after reaching the 1M$, Unreal continue to charge even if your revenue was lower than 1M$ while Unity use the 1M$ trailing revenue if I am not wrong

[viral talon]

i’m 13 and a game dev who doesn’t have any successful game launches matter a fact i haven’t even launched a game yet that’s complete and no bugs so i don’t gotta worry abt this stuff

[ripe walrus]

Even just the rug pull is probably illegal. Like if you think about it, tricking people into signing contracts that give you unlimited power over those people, really oughta be very illegal. Like the contract Unity is trying to say we all signed when we agreed to their old TOS, is insane. The claim is

1. The old TOS also applies another different TOS that unity keeps more secret, which contradicts the clause that lets you opt out of TOS changes.
2. The TOS can be changed to whatever Unity likes and you automatically agree to them just by using Unity in any way.

Like the line doesn't end with charging you unlimited amounts of money. They can change it to say they own your IP now. They can change it to say you can't make games in other engines. They can change it to say anything! And the only way to avoid it is to uninstall Unity before they post the new TOS cuz it applies automatically and immediately. No court in their right minds would uphold such a contract, but, no small dev can afford to take a contract like this to court against a corp.

[static arrow]

wasting your time while waiting? how about just pick up a new engine and try it out, you may love it and wanna change, time is presious and chatting isn't help the situation better, THE CEO IS NOT IN THIS DISCORD, IT IS POINTLESS

[unborn cove]

I think that's short sighted. If you spend the next 10 years on Unity and they do it again, it would affect you. However if you switched engine the chances are not 0, but are lower; and you wouldn't have wasted 10 years.

[spark shard]

Oh hai guys

[mortal atlas]

Why don't you go back to work instead. ❤️

[fair vigil]

most companies arent gonna try to do something like this after seeing the absolute mess it put unity in
unity, one of the biggest game engine companies, took a hard fall

[static arrow]

working

[viral talon]

i’m waiting for a ai game creating engine rn.

[vast seal]

I'll break it down (that part in the article, I mean) one more time, heh. Then just wait for the official announcement. So much text here that stuff like this repeats over and over :). Anyway, wrote a moment ago: in the Bloomberg article, i.e. the tentative new plan being described like this: "Unity will limit fees to 4% of a game’s revenue for customers making over $1 million" - note that this can also mean that [Unity will limit fees] [to 4% of a game's revenue for customers making over $1 million]. In other words, Unity would limit these fees in such a manner that they charge install fees only from customers making over $1 million, capping the total at 4% game revenue. (And which ever interpretation of the article is correct, it might be completely different from what comes out in the official statement later, anyway.) Thigs like this, sentences that can logically mean more than one thing, can easily happen in news coverage when not writing in a very concentrated "official" manner, but just covering the main vibe and points of the news story that is happening.

[mortal atlas]

Ooo good idea, Gpt4, make me a unity like game engine. I'll wait.

[viral talon]

i’m to tired of my projects corrupting

[wary smelt]

this has to be a troll

[fair vigil]

an ai helping me out making a game would be nice

[ripe walrus]

Yeah I mean if you're not monetizing your games you're not at much risk. But I do think Unity might not be the best engine to be learning these days if you want to using the same engine for years and years. Congrats on getting into it at 13, I was like that, I respect it!

[viral talon]

i’m kidding

[rigid moon]

it wont be a troll in the future, just gonna take a bit for ai to do it.

[fair vigil]

i wanna explain to the ai what my little smooth brain is tryna do and it guides me to that item in the editor

[near crane]

thanks for correcting me I see now, missed that part, yeah the other parts of the article misled me, damn news outlets can't write shit correctedly

[viral talon]

there’s already one out there but just for shitty web games

[worn orbit]

AI helps a lot when commenting or naming things

[cerulean lintel]

https://blog.unity.com/engine-platform/introducing-unity-muse-and-unity-sentis-ai

[fair vigil]

mass panic = big clicks

[viral talon]

ai helps me with scripts

[vast seal]

Yeah no prob, and yep, as the second article is written based on that Bloomberg one , they word it in a more concentrated manner but it's actually already an interpretation of what the Bloomberg story said :P ... So this is how things can morph from one outlet to the next.

[fair vigil]

you did your best

[patent siren]

In unity?

[viral talon]

half of my day i gotta do a lot of stuff so ai just saved me time

[patent siren]

When it comes to ai helping in engine and whatnot it's not good.

[fair vigil]

if im being honest i'd probably only ever go back to unity if john was removed and the board was...reviewed

and the system was a percentage based on revenue instead of this vague installation thing

[viral talon]

nah i use it for simple scripts

[cerulean lintel]

chat gpt can actually generate unity scripts pretty well.

[viral talon]

that’s what i use

[wary smelt]

I make Visual novels, so I do a fuckton of writing. Every line of dialogue I've fed to chatgpt makes it sounds like robotic dogshit

[fair vigil]

as much as i do like to mainly blame john, im fully aware its not just him
his words can be contested by the board, so i imagine people on the board also supported this

not everyone, but enough for it to go through

[near crane]

well writing and scripting (logic) are completely different things lmao

[viral talon]

i’m thinking of switching engines but unity just feels so simple

[patent siren]

Unfortunately I am stuck with it.. don't want to lose my work as we are getting close to demo launch and Godot had issues that could not move development forward. I actually migrated to unity from Godot.

[wary smelt]

it can't replace artists, at best it will be a tool, all the techbros saying it will are artless dumb dumbs

[steep marten]

well regardless, judging by the wildfire that this piece of news has spread on the internet, they are for sure done

[willow lagoon]

Whats going to happen with unity...

[fair vigil]

unless a hero appears...

a hero known as ELON-

[near crane]

I'm curious what issues you were facing, as someone who's trying out Godot now

[wary smelt]

I wouldn't worry about it, Unity won't be able to get away with this shit, no matter how hard they try

[ivory jewel]

Glad i bought put options, hope you bros did too. Gl out there

[patent siren]

Compared to unreal it's trash. But yes it's simpler. When it comes to 2d it's an obvious winner but Godot is gonna overtake it soon.

[fair vigil]

the joke of elon taking over is overdone but honestly it doesnt stop getting funnier at the idea of elon of all people buying unity

[steep marten]

I originally thought that they had a super small chance of coming back from this due to them trying to make changes, but the latest video that I am watching right now kind of suggests that even the changes they are making now is not going to water that fire down. Pretty much a bunch of popular drama channels covered it, its plastered all over the news, they are done for sure.

[viral talon]

true

[fair vigil]

that is like the worst case scenario and he genuinely has no reason to buy it

he cant even manage twitter effectively

[patent siren]

Well I am making a game that requires skeletal animation. IK is completely broken in 2d and animatioms in general had some issues which were unbearable.

[rigid moon]

there are more currently existing popular 2d games made with unreal then godot.

[viral talon]

i’m making a game rn where you shoot beans

[near crane]

Noted, I should be testing out animations next then

[patent siren]

I tried unreal for 2d. But honestly I just was not having fun with it. If I was making a 3D game honestly I would. But for 2D it sucks. St least to my eyes.

[fair vigil]

hate windows 11 so much

[willow lagoon]

Unity is a good engine...

[scarlet heath]

switch to penguin

[spark shard]

my apologies I misread so i deleted my statement

[patent siren]

Just don't mix bezier curves animations with non bezoer curves animations and you are good

[fair vigil]

i
i dont know what that means
i dont know what that is

[scarlet heath]

Linux

[worn orbit]

Unity's stagnation and current events notwithstanding, Unity isn't trash.
Both engines have their advantages and disadvantages, and which one is the best choice depends on each particular project (although, as of last week that is clearly no longer the case)

[near crane]

thanks for the specifics, 🫡 much appreicated my man

[rigid moon]

sure it is annoying for 2d, just saying unreal has more of a proven track record with 2d games more then godot has. Which makes godot not so much the obvious choice

[viral talon]

game maker was where i released my first game on the web

[fair vigil]

oh
no

[patent siren]

Compared to godot or unreal it ain't. I have used all 3 of them. I prefer Godot for 2d and unreal for 3d. But that's just taste ig.

[cerulean lintel]

my bestie uses linux her only redflag lol.

[wary smelt]

I like not dealing with a 3D camera when I make a 2d pixelgame

[patent siren]

What I said above goes here as eell^

[fair vigil]

respectfully no
i dont have anything against linux but

have you considered windows 10?

[cerulean lintel]

windows 11 is kinda based. upgraded both my work laptop and person pc now.

[patent siren]

Glad I could help!

[rigid moon]

the real redflag

[cerulean lintel]

honestly true.

[patent siren]

I see where you coming from but honestly Godot has more tools. For me Godot is the obvious choice especially since my recent try on unreal 2d.

[wary smelt]

nope, this is completely wrong. And bad advice

[cerulean lintel]

i love the misspelt reacts lol

[willow lagoon]

I heard godot isnt close to how unity is... And is only good for 2d games... It lacks the tools unity has...

[vast seal]

xD was just going to say, what's with the letters lol

[rigid moon]

its not advice, unreal has more proven track reckon on popular released games, fact.
godot maybe easier and have better tools for 2d, could also be true.

[patent siren]

As I said above. Godot for 2d unreal for 3D

[near crane]

what you hear is not enough, you need to check it out yourself, and do your own research, people tend to say alot without any experience of other engines...

[cerulean lintel]

i think they are trying to say based lol

[viral talon]

guys i’m switching to rpg maker (i love omori)

[fair vigil]

ive never played omori but everyone that i know who's played omori has...issues

[wary smelt]

Unreal does not have good track record for 2d games. And I'm not talking about 2.5d

[unborn cove]

It says Based on mine. Discord isn't 100% real-time so can mix things up

[vast seal]

REACST is almost there :P

[rigid moon]

i didnt say good, i said better then godot

[patent siren]

This^. It all comes down to personal preference tbh. But for me unity ain't good. Only reason I'm using it is that for the stuff I need it Godot Is broken.

[viral talon]

i have mental health issues if that counts lmfao

[wary smelt]

it doesn't. list some games then

[cerulean lintel]

what does this even mean?

[fair vigil]

Spelling

[unborn cove]

If I could screenshot, it says Reacts on mine

[willow lagoon]

Does godot have an asset store like unity...

[patent siren]

There are some games that are good with unreal. I don't remember the names currently but my recent research as I was looking into unreal 2d had me found some.

[fair vigil]

anyone wanna buy me cyberpunk 2077?

[near crane]

It does, a quick google and ull find them (theres multiple, both free and pay stores)

[worn orbit]

After working with both UE and Unity for more than a decade, I have to disagree with this assessment.
I have been donating to Godot recently, but I don't think it is all the way up there yet. Thanks to recent events however, I am optimistic about its near future. As well as the future of Stride3D, and the Murder Engine.

[patent siren]

Yes. Everything is free currently as well. Probably open source toom

[viral talon]

kinda like how i feel abt my own self but in doing ok now

[vast seal]

Whoa really, the order is session dependent? :O I swear I'm not making this up, says REACST over here.

[cerulean lintel]

as long as your doing okay <3

[patent siren]

Didn't mean it's up there yet by any means but it's coming. And I think it's gonna overtake unity in the near future.

[unborn cove]

Yeah, that's just Discord not sending you it in the right order

[willow lagoon]

I also heard godot is still in its early stages...

[viral talon]

uh oh

[patent siren]

That's not true. Godot had come a long way. Has a vast majority of tools. The only problems I faced where bugs.

[near crane]

I tested it out for a week, it's more powerful than the impressions people told me (so far) I been positively surprised by Godot*

[vast seal]

None of the words spelled correctly over here 😅 ... I have "ehlp", "abesd", "abd", "reacst" and "emntal" haha

[patent siren]

Bugs that I'm not smart enough to fix myself.

[willow lagoon]

Im just waiting to see what will happen with unity...

[unborn cove]

That is pretty funny, but it won't stop me.

[worn orbit]

Now, that is something I agree with.
I am looking forward to its evolution, and hopefully a healthy, competitive environment that is no longer dominated by 2 or 3 giants.

[patent siren]

Yes indeed. I am excited for it and wish I could use it.

But tbf although unity's many problems I'm having fun with it.

[chrome crest]

i'm happy to see the demise of unity as a company

[unborn cove]

Nooo

[cerulean lintel]

bad take.

[patent siren]

I'm sorry to ask but do you happen to be Greek?

[unborn cove]

Only 1 E allowed 😦

[near crane]

It's honestly so refreshing to finally hear the perspective of someone who went from Godot > Unity

[solemn notch]

it's more of a packagemanager mashed with asset store

[patent siren]

Hahahaha. Yeah it hurt a lot to have to start from scratch but honestly it might be for the best.

[worn orbit]

I am part Greek, part Italian, part Venezuelan, but I am currently living and working Japan 😅

[near crane]

It is cause everyone who go from Unity to Godot is just saying Godot is shit, or saying it anyway without going there, so I can't trust peoples input here

[fair vigil]

i want to see the downfall of John but the success and survival of unity

[patent siren]

I am Greek. Saw georgios and recognized it as a name hahaha.

[steep marten]

tbh its kinda sad that higher management people always cause these kinds of things to happen

[fair vigil]

he's damaged EA and Unity's reputation, and has shown that he doesn't really respect devs or customers

[patent siren]

I find godot amazing despite the issues i faced.

[fair vigil]

E
A
SPORTS
ITS IN THE GAME

[rigid moon]

always a risk in a traditional organisation, godot is opensauce so it comes with other risks but least dont have a ceo ruining things

[steep marten]

im actually trying it and it will take time to get used to

[patent siren]

And that's coming from someone who worked on Godot seriously planning on a release.

[worn orbit]

It is the most common Greek name after all 😄.
Αθήνα μένεις;

[steep marten]

essentially this is like the great migratoin but its not people to other countries, its people to other game engines

[patent siren]

And had to move to unity. Tbf though unity has some better tools. For example the skeletal system. That's why better thanngodots although Godot's is still usable. But unitys is much faster and works betterm

[strong glade]

Don't fully switch yet because there's still hope

[unborn cove]

Screw you WWW

[patent siren]

Ναι. Καλησπέρα hahaha

[viral talon]

alright yup i’m switching to rpg maker it looks fun af to work with

[smoky escarp]

WW.... i mean, who do you figure that is? Willy Wonka? Walter White.............

[patent siren]

W reference

[unborn cove]

Look who keeps putting the A reacts

[near crane]

alot of good games was made in rpg maker

[wary smelt]

I miss telling people "it depends on the project" when it came to Unity v Gdot

[rigid moon]

could be anyone really

[slim bough]

It still does

[unborn cove]

(>".")>

[rigid moon]

WWW = the internet for overreacting to unitys decision

[patent siren]

Sometimes you have to figure it out halfway through.

[novel dragon]

Godot's not bad; just that you have to implement more things yourself; like jumping from VRChat/S&box/GMod to Unity to Godot; there's less systems already done for you at each step

[wary smelt]

also, this is compeletly wrong, plenty of companues use open source software. Shit, I wouldn't be surprised if a company made their own fork of Godot

[viral talon]

omori

[patent siren]

Fan fact, if I'm not mistaken Tesla has used Godot for ui

[slim bough]

That's not a great endorsement ngl

[patent siren]

It ain't but still a fun fact 😂

[worn orbit]

Nice!
I used to live in Π.Φαληρο before I moved to Tokyo.
How are things over there? Still as bad as they were 7-8 years ago?

[tiny prism]

Fan Fact

[strong glade]

Everyone is still assuming that unity has met it's end and there's no chance for them to reverse it. But let's look at the facts, this change is affecting Microsoft, Xbox, playstation, and nintendo. They will get pissed at unity and will force them to change it. Just wait things out and see how they go before permanently switching. There have been situations like this before that are very similar and it has taken companies over a week to reverse their decision. I mean, the CEO of unity has tried to charge people for bullets in video games but that didn't end up happening. It's so stupid and that change would not actually be went through, there's no way that would actually happen.

[elder sleet]

its funny you mentioned that because godot is open source so there is no rules of having to give credit or splashscreens advertising them. How do we know if some game somewhere or project not already made with a fork of godot already? hehe

[patent siren]

Pretty much lmao. You living the dream man. I love Japan. Want to visit someday.

[rigid moon]

development of opensauce software can stop though when motivation for it dies, not saying it will happen just thats the main risk.

[unborn cove]

Damn the bot warned me for spamming emojis. My life is ruined.

[strong glade]

Open sauce?

[tiny prism]

Open sauce lmao

[elder sleet]

whats with the Letter emoji under alot of the people's chat?

[strong glade]

Yes

[unborn cove]

Bored, drunk.

[patent siren]

Eyee cheers man

[steep marten]

this still tarnished their reputation no matter what

[wary smelt]

wat? Buddy, Blender is used by companies around the world. Godot is spreading like wildfire. OBS is the prefered solution for streamers. THE INTERNET RUNS ON LINUX

[elder sleet]

oh ok, i thought it was a mark of the beast or something funky going on, with unity never know these days

[rigid moon]

yep opensauce is awesome.

[hexed arch]

!mute 251075189889171456 1d Looks like you need a timeout

[chrome crest]

they should be fired and replaced with actually experienced people

[elder sleet]

this is the problem with management that does not understand the art side of their creative business

[serene field]

Fart

[patent siren]

That seemed kinda harsh tbh. He was just having fun. People currently in the chat were having fun with him as well.

[thorny dew]

Wow, a sleep-typer...they really should turn off their computer before bed

[elder sleet]

not here please there has been enough smelling rotton activities going on lol

[teal basin]

Monkey paws. Nestle CEO become the new CEO.

[strong glade]

I wish I could as well but that would cost a very very very large amount of money

[hexed arch]

There's no off-topic on the server. You start just spamming this channel you'll be removed.

[strong glade]

I think Elon Musk should be the new CEO. He's a little crazy sometimes but knows how to run a company very well.

[rigid moon]

memes are banned here because they are to funny, not allowed to be funny in here only 100% serious discussions.

[patent siren]

I wouldn't count that as spam nor he was hurting anyone but your server your rules. Who am I to judge.

[gentle sigil]

everything non strictly professional is giga banned mfs gave me warning for "violent emoji"

[elder sleet]

did you hear he is proposing charging a monthly fee to use twitter to combat bots, he thinks enough news is circulating with unity so he wants to be the next thing on the news

[slim bough]

I'd rather quite literally anyone else

[strong glade]

No I didn't hear that and I was joking btw. For real tho I think my dog would be a better CEO than unity's current one.

[novel dragon]

Hmm, nobody outside of my gaming and developer circles seems to care about this

[elder sleet]

not sure he is kinda cray cray

[slim bough]

The only good thing Elon Musk has ever done is make it easy to who avoid just by looking at who he's hanging around with 😭

[serene field]

Why would they?
People never care about things unless it directly affects them

[elder sleet]

he would just rename Unity to Unity-X anyways

[strong glade]

This affects a lot more than just developers it'll also affect people who play games because many games will have to be unlisted or ported to a new engine because of this

[worn orbit]

Not gonna lie, Japan is great, even better than I imagined before moving here 💖
I recommend visiting for at least 2 weeks, as there is a lot to see and do in every city; I would also recommend visiting once for Kanto, once for Kansai, once for Okinawa, once for Hokkaido, and once for Kyuushu.

[slim bough]

No games will be unlisted. The retroactive shit will not happen

[patent siren]

Noted!

[elder sleet]

yea no one cares until it effects them then they care but enough people has been so out spoken about this both in the dev, tech, and gamining industry that Unity is considering a compramise or a change of some sort but, we will know exactly what that is once they announce it

[strong glade]

If this goes through then yes they will. I know one off the top of my head, which is cult of the lamb, it'll get unlisted on january 1st if the change goes through

[fair vigil]

is this trickery

[frank iron]

been Hokkaido, Tokyo and a place with hotspring (forget whats call)

[strong glade]

However I don't think this decision will go through I was just saying if it does then it'll affect a lot of games

[slim bough]

The retroactive stuff is genuinely just like, not legally viable. That aspect of the changes won't end up happening

[fair vigil]

i've lived in like jamaica and florida and then i see people all the time say "omg jamaica is so amazing. its a great place"

maybe if you're a tourist

[worn orbit]

Hakone? Beppu?

[elder sleet]

they are planning to make a change of some sort to the policy but, they said they will announce what that change is soon

[fair vigil]

same for people who want to retire in florida
are you out of your mind?

go to virginia or carolina

[strong glade]

I agree, I don't think they would but I meant if they went through with what is currently said. But yeah it's very illegal

[ruby void]

Don't hold your breath expect to pay something.

[worn orbit]

What kind of trickery could it be? 😅

[fair vigil]

idk
saying a place is good and then you live there and then you get exposed to the not so fun parts

[elder sleet]

oh i expect of some cost or some sort just not like this

[fair vigil]

imma be honest with you i think most people get to florida by sheer misunderstanding and mistakes because living here can be such a mess at times

same with texas, respectfully

[strong glade]

I don't care if I pay something like a 5% revenue share, at least that is consistent and won't ruin game studios. Honestly I'd be fine with 30% but that would kinda suck because they never told anyone about any of this. I would still use it tho as long as they fix the terms of service and don't make the fee something ludicrous

[cerulean lintel]

texas is atleast a tax haven. no excuse for florida.

[worn orbit]

I have yet to encounter the not so fun part of Japan in 8 years. 😮

[wary smelt]

If I had to choose, Texas. Texas at least has some tech companies and a bit of personality

[fair vigil]

"omg disneyland"
disneyland sucks im sorry
it is not worth it

[elder sleet]

regardless of the changes, their mask is off and now they are going to always be known for this type of company and leadership regardless what changes they change at this point

[fair vigil]

you're gonna spend most of your time out in the florida heat in long ass lines only for a fight to break out between grown adults (not even the kids) about rides and lines

[strong glade]

Wow really? That's totally new information!!

[fair vigil]

i wanna go to carolina honestly

[slim bough]

Don't think Texas is a great option for a good portion of the population...

[elder sleet]

this is an eye opening for the indie dev community and more and more studios will start to diversify their options instead of allowing it all in unity

[fair vigil]

everyone i've met who comes from carolina is an absolute sweetheart and i need that kind of environment for my own sake

[strong glade]

Heat in florida isn't even that bad, where I live it's consistently over 110 F in the summer and often goes above 115 F

[cerulean lintel]

and if you arent straight and cis youre also pretty much dead there.

[fair vigil]

our political system is such an absolute mess, especially when it comes to school, that its somewhat amusing?

[fair vigil]

worst we got was like 96 i think and we were already giving up
the recent heatwaves were absolutely horrible

[elder sleet]

here is the problem with their model tho if they go a percentage let say 4 percent and still charge the pro license fee that puts them close to par with unreal and part of the reason people choose unity over unreal is the royalty cost unreal has vs unity did not have shared revenue cost. Its going to be interesting to see where people go once bills start coming in

[strong glade]

Lol 96 is chilly for where I live I wish that was the hottest it got here

[fair vigil]

when i was younger i thought i could handle any heat but mother nature humbled me real quick this last summer

[cerulean lintel]

im in the UK so my knowledge on us polotics isnt great bar people i know getting hurt by anti-lgbtq+ law.

[worn orbit]

The Astérix park in Paris was way more fun than Paris Disneyland, and Tokyo Disneysea was more fun than both 🥳

[strong glade]

Where in the UK?

[scarlet heath]

don't ruin my childhood please 😦

[wary smelt]

ngl, disneyland kinda does suck

[elder sleet]

I bet Epic games is sitting back just watching this mess

[cerulean lintel]

i work in the Brighton office so somewhere near there i guess. (don't wanna dox myself)

[fair vigil]

i mean yeah there is that but personally for me its like the least concerning thing
my biggest concern is like since july or so they made it so that florida schools will now teach kids how slavery was actually good for slaves

that was such an unhinged thing to propose and its even worse that it went through

[strong glade]

Yeah of course I didn't mean super specific

[cerulean lintel]

yikes!

[fair vigil]

i know they're feeling real good right now with unity burning itself to the ground
one of the biggest competitors just shut themselves down pretty much

[strong glade]

That's cool, I'm english but never been to England I've always lived in the US

[wary smelt]

Todd Sweeney is probably smoking a cigar or two rn

[slim bough]

Idk if Unity was real competition in the same way that say Nintendo isn't really competing with Sony and Microsoft

[fair vigil]

now its just a waiting game to see if they can bounce back but its gonna take a miracle

and that miracle would be getting rid of John and reviewing the board members

[elder sleet]

well i do not think this will kill the company but will for sure shatter their image and will be a shell to it's former self

[fair vigil]

I'm more surprised you said Sony honestly.

But I mean I feel like they've constantly been compared

[strong glade]

That's kinda true, they're both powerhouses in the gaming industry and they both have different uses as well so it's not really competition

[fair vigil]

thinking about the discussion before makes me remember why i hate the florida's current education system

[slim bough]

By casual consumers maybe, Don't think as much by developers

[wary smelt]

That's more like how Godot isn't really competing with Unreal. The problem is that Unity made the braindead move of trying to position their engine as an Unreal competitor, but they should have focused their effort on actually being the accessible indie engine

[elder sleet]

yea they both are for different target customers really

[fair vigil]

godot is making its rise

[slim bough]

I don't think Unity has really been trying to compete with Unreal either for the most part. Unity's value is it's entry level accessability alongside it's range of strong support for a bunch of smaller areas like VR, AR, Mobile, Indie, Gambling, Unconentical Art Projects, 3D Related Business Software etc. etc.

[elder sleet]

i love how i got an e mail spam from Wayfair and their subject line is N/A talk about lazy hahahahha

[fair vigil]

What do yall think it would take to save Unity's reputation right now?

Cuz I really do love Unity. I made my first projects on them.

[strong glade]

Unity is better for 2D, unreal has some 2D features but not really much. But, unreal also has crazy graphics and stuff so if you're going for a 3D game with a lot of realism then Unreal's great but Unity's also good for 3D just not as good when it comes to graphics.

[rigid moon]

sell to another company who will say never to do something stupid like that

[warped compass]

The damage is done, and people already moved to other engines

[fair vigil]

I wouldn't even call them games tbh cuz I don't think they had high enough quality to be considered that. But I made them. And I liked them. And I loved the engine.

[strong glade]

For them to reverse the decision and change the terms of service back and make a solid apology statement and promise it won't happen again

[strong glade]

It can be repaired somewhat. They really have to get that idiot and evil person of a CEO out of there

[rigid moon]

apologize it wont happen agian, "trust us bro"

[elder sleet]

change of leadership, a firm hard promise to not allow EULA to be changed from older versions of the engine and a firm promise to not do this again and have a discussion with the community and customers if they plan to make changes that is really drastic

[fair vigil]

I summon thee, Aimy!

[warped compass]

Ye he rich, so it might take a lot to do that

[strong glade]

If they act like they didn't do anything wrong then that'd be bad so I just want them to make a statement about how they messed up

[cerulean lintel]

huh?

i have been summoned why am i needed?

what have i done?

ahhhh

[fair vigil]

omg it worked

[strong glade]

If he ruins the company and squeezes every drop of money out of it then he'll leave and unity could be revived again once he's gone

[rigid moon]

appology will help stop some people from leaving, but wont help people because how can you trust them not to do it agian to risky

[warped compass]

Ye hopefully but, unity might be dead by then

[cerulean lintel]

ill be off to bed soon just making conlang words rn like a nerd.

[elder sleet]

he kinda did that with EA

[fair vigil]

i love me
not knowing what those words mean

[tender cedar]

We need a serious plan to take Unitys revenue down for as long as needed

[spark shard]

Well friends I think it's time for some Project Zomboid or Rimworld before bed yall have a good night

[rigid moon]

make one that is optimal for coding, then a conlang might actually be used for something 😛

[cerulean lintel]

i mean me and my friend speak this one back and forth to eachother is our little bonding thing.

[elder sleet]

its already happening this is why they announced a change of policy is going to be announce soon. The collective which is a group of alot of mobile studios agreed to turn off ironsource and other monetizing from unity on their games until this is resolved so it did have an effect

the group that did this collective thing hits unity where it hurts right away because those are shared revenue that unity gets a cut from right away so that was a good move

[tender cedar]

That's amazing. They should enable ways we could help them financially to increase their runway for doing this. Or maybe if we pool money we cna also encourage other smaller studios to join (so they get some runway, too).

[elder sleet]

look up the group and there is a list of studios behind the letter to unity about it and you can support them directly that way

[fast wedge]

Im enjoying leaning UE c++, but prefer Unity for VR

[ripe walrus]

Before we get too excited about the policy change, remember: it doesn't matter if the new pricing terms are better as long as Unity is holding to the claim that they can change ALL the terms at any time for any reason with no recourse. If the terms are "whatever we say they are tomorrow" it doesn't matter whatsoever what the terms are today

[elder sleet]

yea sadly unity has the best VR tools currently

[strong glade]

Good idea to not just switch straight away, especially since a policy change is coming soon

[cerulean lintel]

ṅake pikah su ka nume kahaṡpikah- "i am making a language with the name kahaṡpikah" (apparently we dont have a word for called yet lol)

[limpid vine]

i feel like the backtracking only pulls back some of the parts which are straight up illegal. ie retroactive price increases

[elder sleet]

this is part of why they are planning to make the editor online where you have sign in at least once every 3 days so it forces you to agree by signing in kind of thing so they can change the eula on the fly

[ripe walrus]

if the leak is right, it doesn't even pull back on the straight up illegal

[cerulean lintel]

huh? we are planning what now?

[elder sleet]

as of nov they are going to make it where you have to sign in to the editor and if your offline more then 3 days it will not let you in

[cerulean lintel]

source? first time ive heard of this and i work here lol.

[zenith echo]

Or show that they are even aware of what the problem really is. 😆

[elder sleet]

let me find it unless that changed but i seen the thing on it last week

[strong glade]

Hopefully by a change in policy they didn't mean making it worse

[strong glade]

It's true I've heard of that as well

[elder sleet]

and it was also a discussion on here that happen multiple times and others had brought it up as well, and i remember reading about it as well

[cerulean lintel]

im not doubting anyone i just havent heard of this before.

[spring bridge]

i heard samyam mention it from the blog in her video and she showed a snippet in the video as proof

[strong glade]

Yeah it's kinda weird that it's a thing I donno why

[limpid vine]

probably making it still terrible, but slightly less terrible to reduce backlash. This was definitely a calculated move to have this still shitty position to backtrack to. (Calculated before the first announcement)

[strong glade]

I thought it was calculated but then I realized that really it's just stupid because people will still be mad at them for violating trust

[elder sleet]

What changes are coming to Unity Personal?

Unity Personal will remain free and we will be removing the annual revenue limit of $100,000 USD for eligibility to use the Unity Personal plan on January 1, 2024.

Starting in November, Unity Personal users will get a new sign-in and online user experience. Users will need to be signed into the Hub with their Unity ID and connect to the internet to use Unity. If the internet connection is lost, users can continue using Unity for up to 3 days while offline. More details to come, when this change takes effect.

[zenith echo]

It’s on the blog in the Unity Personal section, first part.
https://unity.com/pricing-updates

[cerulean lintel]

thank you :)

[elder sleet]

no problem i had to double check making sure i was not going crazy i remember seeing it lol

[limpid vine]

we can’t really take that seriously unless it comes from a verified source, tho

[cerulean lintel]

at a first read im guessing you wont have to log in every three days as long as you connect to the internet relativly often and have untity open at some point.

[elder sleet]

it said signed in so no idea

[cerulean lintel]

"If the internet connection is lost, users can continue using Unity for up to 3 days while offline." atleast thats how i read this line. this is literally my first time seeing this so no idea.

[rigid moon]

to bad for all the developers who use unity offline.

[limpid vine]

that is not the part that pissed people off

[elder sleet]

yea its going to be interesting when some studios airgapped or restrict the users from windows group policy and such so those people will not be happy

[rigid moon]

and in schools where things can get blocked so cant sign in.

[elder sleet]

yup

i think that is also a bad move and those decisions is over shadowed by the price stuff but yea

[limpid vine]

the whole concept of a runtime fee is problematic. It’s like buying a hammer from home depot, and halfway through building a house, they announce that they also want a cut of the house.

[rigid moon]

or photoshop wanting .20cents per look at picture you made, unity has not legal right to anything you make with it (or it shouldnt)

[elder sleet]

or pepsi wants to charge a store 5 cents everytime a customer takes a sip of soda after the soda is already paid for by the store

[limpid vine]

if unity gets away with this, other companies will follow. this needs to get nipped in the bud

[elder sleet]

yup its going to set a new standard which is why almost every industry is eye balling this lol

[limpid vine]

i hope the max exodus is the sign to other platforms to not try this shit

[elder sleet]

but so far the backlash has been so bad that not sure other companies wants part of that

[rigid moon]

it wont set a new standard, because you need to get people so invested in your program they are to scared to leave before you can pull off something like this

[limber widget]

Well,it sounds as good as the idea of charging 1 dollar per reload in an online shooting game

[elder sleet]

yea so a small handfull of industries maybe then may consider this model

[limpid vine]

Unity is a great tool. But also isn’t the worst thing to transition away from if you have no choice. They overplayed their hand.

[elder sleet]

gee where i hear that from i wonder

[elder sleet]

I am just curious what ceo would ever say this ??? hmmmm 😉

[amber patrol]

Only a EA CEO

[elder sleet]

I wonder where he is now hmmm..... OH yea nevermind....... 😛

[limber widget]

Yeah an EA CEO might have that brilliant idea

[rigid moon]

I doubt even EA would develop a game with unity with these new rules lol

[limber widget]

Ofcourse not EA wants to take money not give it to unity

[elder sleet]

I know what company is going to tell Unity to go somewhere lol Microsoft because Microsoft now owns blizzard and blizzard makes hearth stone and hearth stone is made with unity, you think microsoft is going to pay that when they never agreed to that

[rigid moon]

also nintendo with pokemon go

[limber widget]

They probably already started working in changing the game engine

[elder sleet]

yea you think nintendo is going to agree to that, each of those 2 companies have bigger laywers and combined is like beating the final boss in a really hard game lol

[strong glade]

It sucks for some people to change from who have learned and used unity for many years. Also for game studios in the middle of big projects

[elder sleet]

for some studios is very expensive thing to do and alot of time to train your employees on a new engine is they been use to Unity for a long time

[strong glade]

Facts, it's gonna get reversed or at least repaired

[limpid vine]

it’s expensive, but not impossible, given unity is telling studios “we are a giant risk for you”

[strong glade]

Yeah that's why this sucks so much. Also I'm 15 so still very young and could learn another engine but I love unity and I've spent a decent amount of time using it and it sucks to switch without a choice even then. But I probably won't have to switch if they change it

[elder sleet]

lol Unity taking on Nintendo and Microsoft's lawyers is like trying to fight a level 50 boss when your level 1 in WOW, good luck

[willow crypt]

Well I have peace on my forever project, talked with the wife and Porting over is going to be okay. As long as I have support I am happy. Unity will be left behind, unfortunately there is nothing that can be done, not even a few years fully funded would give me the joy or the peace of mind working in a system that won't be able to attempt to take advantage of me and thousands of others ever again. And while we do that, making our new place stronger

[strong glade]

It's like an ant against a bodybuilder lol

[elder sleet]

yea i talked to some coming up devs that is still in schools and such and they are concern for their future because they already invested money for school and knee deep in their studies and the schools they are in is unity centeric for their game dev class

[strong glade]

Don't give up hope they said they will change the policy we just don't know exactly how yet

[strong glade]

Yeah I have a game dev class which is awesome but it uses unity which I really was hyped about but then this happened

[tacit tusk]

well, its been reported that they are charging $2k per seat AND taking a 4% rev share... LOL, so switch to unreal

[limber widget]

That shouldnt really be a problem people should learn programming, the tool u can adapt yourself easy if you know how to program

[strong glade]

I'm pretty hopeful about it tho and could see them fixing things because there's no way they get away with all the legal issues and major problems with this change

[rigid moon]

the fact they made this change is enough reason to give up hope, they can do it once they can do it agian.

dw guys you can start your 5yr project now, we wont it or something worse agian in couple years, trust us bro

[elder sleet]

yea students in that situation are nevous about the future with the program they are learning and rightfully so

[willow crypt]

I appreciate the kind words but it is not about hope, it's about standing in truth

[strong glade]

I know how to program but unity's one of the best tools for what I'm trying to do

[vernal vortex]

You do realise unreal also charges money for premium support which is what you get with pro and enterprise right?

[tacit tusk]

yup.

[limber widget]

If what u are doing is 3d unreal if it is 2d godot is not bad

[cerulean lintel]

im off to bed gamers <3 hope today brings news for you all :)

[elder sleet]

yes they do but only under certain use cases you will need to change to enterprise most indie devs do not fall under those use cases

[rigid moon]

us all*

[limber widget]

Even though I kinda hate the godot script language

[spark shard]

It's not even comparible to Unity's license charges

[strong glade]

Yeah I'm not being super unrealistic I know they could just make things worse and worse but probably something will change because like I've said before, this change is affecting microsoft, Xbox, Playstation, and nintendo and they will not let it slide

[elder sleet]

you do not need to use GDscript you can use c#

[wary smelt]

I knew that something was up before this happened. The company is just unsustainable. They tried getting into too many industries. They made too many acquisitions. They hired too many people. All while neglecting their core product

[tacit tusk]

if they try and double dip with $2k per seat and a 4% rev share, unity is a total ripoff.

[limber widget]

Yeah I know just saying the gdscript sucks

[strong glade]

But how different is the c# in unity from the c# in godot?

[wary smelt]

Just wait things out. They won’t be able to go through with their stupid plans. Finish your projects, then move onto a new engine

[elder sleet]

its not as bad as you will think but yes godot is missing some unity features but its the nature of it being a different engine really

[strong glade]

Unfortunately I tried using unreal and it kept crashing and my computer could not handle it

[limber widget]

Well different library so u need to learn their terms

[vernal vortex]

How so?

[strong glade]

Plus it's pretty complicated, I probably will be able to get it to work eventually and will learn it but it sucks because I love unity so much

[limber widget]

Start the project with low graphics

[strong glade]

k will try, thank you

[elder sleet]

yea this is normal when changing frameworks

[elder sleet]

so here is the thing i suck with learning programming and i was able to make my own player controller less then a week of using godot

[limber widget]

My pc also cry if I leave the graphics above medium in unreal

[elder sleet]

this is where its sad unity pulling this because unity was that nice happy medium

[limber widget]

Unreal just have too many graphics on by default

[spark shard]

Unreals paid for license are the exception to the rule where as Unitys license are the rule. i.e. very few people will ever need to pay for a license from unreal it's there for studios that want to pay for non-games who want to go royalty free, or for enterprises who have particular legal/technical support clients (movies) or for game studios anticipating multi-million dollars in sales. - https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/license
Unity's licensing is wanting to push everyone towards pro if they can which is signaled in their own pricing FAQ, thus the removal of personal, the lower per install fee, the removal of splash screen, and the higher thresholds on pro

[elder sleet]

yea even if you turn alot of things off at the end of the day its still unreal and has higher requirements then unity

[spark shard]

Disable Lumen then follow these Engine Optimizations for older systems
https://youtu.be/yMHXwh_q8TA?si=hf2LVg1qqI29cJsP <- Improve GPU Performance in Unreal Engine 5 by Allocating Maximum VRAM
https://www.uisco.blog/post/10-tips-for-optimizing-unreal-engine-performance-on-low-end-pcs Additional Engine Optimizations

[strong glade]

Yeah although unreal has nanite and crazy optimizations, it's just too much to be running in the editor regardless because editors tend to have way worse performance than the actual game. Unreal games probably have great performance but the editor is way harder to run

[elder sleet]

this is what i was saying earlier so how their license work is if you need their higher tier licenses they will work with you to reduce the royalty fee. The licenses also gives you access for support which in most cases indie devs do not need generally if you need support is because you are a bigger studio trying to intergerate their tools into something custom and such most support indie devs need is already available free, via documentation, community, etc....

[wary smelt]

I like unreal, but duck man. Running it is so annoying. I have a 2060 super and it’s still annoying to boot up. It’s why I used Godot. I’m not waiting for unreal to boot up to work on my 2d anime game

[vernal vortex]

Imho if you want to do any sort of serious project, you meed the premium support in both engines. I don’t see a push to force poor indie devs into buying pro licenses. For me plus has always been a licensing tier that did not really make sense. As for the splash screen I have been saying for years that Unity should totally flip it and only allow it on certain vetted games and products.

[tacit tusk]

unity tech support is garbage anyway, you report bugs / memory leaks etc. and it takes literally 6 months to get fixed because it is all closed source - unity is garbage.

[spark shard]

Everyone is welcome to their opinions, I disagree but to each their own. I do agree on the splash screen statement however.

[elder sleet]

and really if you e mail epic your problem if its not already in a document or easy to find issue in a lot of cases they will reply back at some point and point you to the right direction

[wary smelt]

It’s ludicrous that we don’t have access to the Unity source code. Unreal and Godot let’s you look at the source code.

[elder sleet]

i know this because i had something i thought was a bug and i e mailed them the issue and they told me what i was doing wrong and how to fix it in a e mail and I do not have any pro licenses

[vernal vortex]

Thats my experience with unity support as well

[tacit tusk]

if you need an actual fix from unity, good luck with that...

[elder sleet]

again in most cases the indie dev do not need those pro licenses if its just for support kind of thing this is why Unreal higher tier licenses is not needed from majority of the indie devs out there

[wary smelt]

Let us look at the damn source code

[spark shard]

Thats not the type of support we are referring to, with this, were talking about an account rep with a direct line / access to developers and input on milestones and updates to functionality in the engine. Those are very different than emailing an issue into support.

[vernal vortex]

And I am asking this: how is Unities pro license needed by indie devs right now?

[iron musk]

Unity’s gonna be coming back stronger boy

[tacit tusk]

you can get the source, but it costs a fortune and they are really shifty about giving you the most up to date source code

[elder sleet]

for account stuff or billing issues unreal has no issue dealing with you on and if you are already on their radar making them money from royalty i am sure you will get a direct person to deal with. Without a pro license for unreal

[spark shard]

because your license in unity affects your earning thresholds, your price per install costs, the existence of the splash screen the rest you can read yourself in the FAQ

[wary smelt]

What assholes

[tacit tusk]

unity is dead

[twin marlin]

im having such a hard time choosing whether to use stride engine or flax engine. both are similar to unity and look so promising

[elder sleet]

at least unreal gives you access lol

[spark shard]

try both and see which one feels more your style, look at their asset store as well as their community

[elder sleet]

how is flex?

[tacit tusk]

stride forums seemed like a ghost town, barely any updates, i'd avoid that

[distant zealot]

dead game

[wary smelt]

My point exactly. Epic still makes money off their engine, and it’s not like they let anyone make a PR. Unity has no good reason to make it closed source

[twin marlin]

they have a pretty active discord community

[tacit tusk]

unreal is the only choice really for 3d.

[wary smelt]

Discord communities don’t make an engine

[elder sleet]

yea not sure why they decide to keep it close to their chest, are they so paranoid of someone stealing their engine or something?

[tacit tusk]

ah, maybe thats where the action is, I read through their forums and came away less than impressed 🙂

[spark shard]

i've heard good things about flax but i haven't actually used it. I went back to Unreal when all of this broke, I've never really loved Unity, but I was convinced to give it a try again after years away because I really enjoy codemonkey's content so I was learning the engine and getting ready to start a new line of projects in it, then this hit and I am just looking at going back to unreal at this point.

[wary smelt]

Godot has a pretty sweet community

[twin marlin]

ive tried godot but it wasnt for me tbh

[elder sleet]

you cannot really say theat as there is other 3d engines out there or have 3d options, not if you want AAA or photoreal then sure

[twin marlin]

everyoen is more focused on GDscript than anything else ngl

[tacit tusk]

their release process is so convoluted and slow, it makes sharing the source code difficult

[elder sleet]

yea

[bitter tinsel]

Agreed. Something is just wrong. So i switched back to unity

[fair vigil]

we await their response

[wary smelt]

I mean, was Unity ever really an option for 3D AAA games? I know there’s Tarkov and Outer wilds but that’s all that comes to mind

[twin marlin]

im gonna try to see whether stride or flax engine is better for me. both look really promising

[elder sleet]

yea i am enjoying godot a lot but i feel you I feel like the UI is missing stuff just cannot put my finger on it lol

[slim bough]

Neither of those games are AAA?

[spark shard]

I will give some credit to the Godot community this post was up on reddit https://sampruden.github.io/posts/godot-is-not-the-new-unity/ and the community reached out to the author and asked if he wanted to work with them on correcting his findings and he jumped right in and they welcomed him. That's definitely a +1 on their score card. I think Godot has a lot of potential, it's just not there yet for me.

[tacit tusk]

sure, there are other options, but if you want anything powerful/mature, unreal is really the sensible choice.

[elder sleet]

was talking about unreal

[slim bough]

Outer Wilds was a funded indie game that started as a student project haha

[full silo]

Genshin impact

[elder sleet]

well unity is a harder option if you talking about that level as it can be done but in that regard unreal is no match for that but if you going for normal 3d or really just fun game and not photo real game there is a few options out there other then unity and unreal

[slim bough]

Pokemon Diamond & Pearl remakes on the Switch were made in Unity
Mario Kart Tour is a pretty big one too

[spark shard]

I guess it depends on wha tyou consider a AAA game all of the following have AAA success:
Rust
Fall Guys
Escape from Tarkov
Subnautica
Cities: Skylines
Kerbal Space Program
Cuphead
GTFO
Hearthstone
Hollow Knight

[slim bough]

AAA Success isn't what the discussions about haha, and also it was about 3d games

[tacit tusk]

sure, but if you want something modern with dlss / raytracing options, you are limited.

[distant zealot]

bruh pokeemon go is made on unity

[elder sleet]

oh not saying it cannot be done just more leg work then unreal as unreal just have that kind of graphics working out of the box where in unity you just have to put more work into making it that good looking

[spark shard]

Uh k lol...

[ripe walrus]

The joke answer is that the code's so bad that to even begin to read it would drive a man insane. Unity devs say it's not really that bad but it's a fun answer.

The real answer IDK. Maybe it's because there's shady shit they don't want us to know about... Maybe they're just control freaks? Maybe they've just had enough of being criticized for shipping broken features and don't need to give people ammo?

[elder sleet]

they know indie devs can make better imrovements on their engine that will make them look bad hahaha

its a joke 😛

[wary smelt]

With the amount of abandoned features, I can imagine the codebase is a shitshow

[tacit tusk]

this whole situation has really done the whole gamedev scene a favour - everyone has been forced to look around and take a proper look at other engines... I was surprised at how much unreal had changed.

[slim bough]

Reminds me of when Celeste released their character controller code and people shit on it for a bunch of reasons when it did it's job perfectly

[elder sleet]

yea it might be just badly commented, and just so all over the place in the code that to clean it up for the general indie dev to work with it would be a lot of work i am sure

[wary smelt]

That, and management could be dumb control freaks who think that open code means ip infringement or some dumb bullshit

[novel dragon]

That's basically almost every codebase that is touched by at least 2 people tbh

[elder sleet]

yea my work i look at the source code and my head spins

[wary smelt]

Some are much worse than others

[elder sleet]

but then again its not a game software or anything is a closed propitiatory softwhere for the gov and its much bigger then unity

[wary smelt]

Hmm, yeah I can imagine that there are some government contracts that could make it closed source

[ripe walrus]

I think kinda unironically this? Experienced unity devs are always like, unity does like 7 things right and like 93 things wrong and one of these days I'm gonna make my own Unity with blackjack and hookers! And like, most of it's probably neither especially perfect nor especially unique, and I think they're worried that seeing that might demystify things too much, make people understand that Unity's not that special. I'm not sure or anything, and I don't mean to say that Unity's like, a terrible piece of software that devs should be embarrassed to work on or anything like that. But a lot of their customers think they're doing something magical, I think they're worried about showing us the man behind the curtain.

[rigid moon]

Yet unreal has all there code public?

[ripe walrus]

Cuz they're confident of it and proud of it and unity's insecure

[elder sleet]

what i find is that these software is really a collections of tools and libraries and API'S that is programmed to work together with a custom UI and tweaked down to be easier to use and understand for the end user

[wary smelt]

They want people to be dependent on their tech. And to some extent, people are. But with that dependency, it makes sense to let the community take a peak into the code and help make it better. Unity is taking the short sighted approach and it’s hurting them

[ripe walrus]

And because they respect their devs a little more skill-wise, like, I think Unity's POV is "what would you scrubs even do with our code if you had it" and Unreal's like "source code is a vital tool in software development"

[iron musk]

It can’t be that dead if people are still typing here

[wary smelt]

This is the funeral

[elder sleet]

yea here is the thing if we all did not like unity itself we would not be here, we like the tools enough to be passionate about it and to voice our concerns about the business side of the changes

[tacit tusk]

its on life support, see what they come back with, but if its $2k a seat and a revshare with no source code access, its dead.

[carmine storm]

so how's this hornet's nest

[tiny crest]

What are the open source engine available to us again?

[strong glade]

It isn't yet

[wary smelt]

I don’t even use Unity, I’m just heartbroken seeing other devs get fucked over like this

[tacit tusk]

its sad how dependent people had become on it really

[tiny prism]

Unity is trying to bend everyone over

[strong glade]

Yes

[elder sleet]

I do not think Unity will die over this, will they be the same? No. Can they lose their crown sure but as of now no company has the same set of tools with the quality and usefulness as unity currently, now this can change in the future but as of now Unity has the crown

[vernal vortex]

People here saying Unreal’s source access is a big deal but I have yet to meet a unreal dev or studio that have done anything meaningful with that code. In fact most are slightly jelly at how easily extensible the unity editor is for custom tools. Again this is just my experience

[stark mica]

It does make it significantly easier if something goes wrong, you can check if it's your code or the engine

[vestal crown]

I don't know why they're still tryning to make this a thing rather than scraping it

[strong glade]

Well one of the major issues is for people who already have projects going or already released unity projects. That's not them being dependent on it. It's like if you were making a crazy lego tower build and somebody came and punched it down

[stark mica]

Source code being there also makes the docs being sorta trash more acceptable

[elder sleet]

i talked to some that is working on projects or had worked on teams that uses Unreal source and they tell me in most cases they use it to integrate it with their own tools or make custom tools to help with the workflow

[strong glade]

Unity honestly has decent documenation, especially compared to unreal

[tiny prism]

Nah you build a crazy lego tower and then the CEO of lego comes to your house and says that you have to pay 20 cents for every brick that you placed

[rigid moon]

no its like your making a lego tower then lego charges you .20cent a lego, then you go over to lego competitor but people to scared and depant on lego to do that

[strong glade]

lol that's facts

[elder sleet]

cannot argue there

[teal basin]

Unless you update your Editor you don't have any issue. So it is not like Unity break your project without you knowing. It is just unofrtunate that you need to be update to date for console platform.

[strong glade]

Huh? They changed tos that's for every version this applies to every version

[wary smelt]

People will still finish their projects. But unless things change, in 5 years the engine may be dead. Only way out is an acquisition and change of management

[tiny prism]

Unity is trying to get that dirty bread

[elder sleet]

well on this note I am off for the night, you all have a good evening and hope we get some good news when i wake up in the morning

[strong glade]

Which will probably happen before it completely dies I think

[teal basin]

Sorry, I thought you were talking of bug in general and not the pricing update my bad

[strong glade]

Oh nah unity is honestly fine when it comes to bugs I love the engine just hate the CEO behind it and the choices they make

[teal basin]

Or fixing it

[ripe walrus]

If they come back and and it's anything other than ironclad protections against future retroactive TOS changes they're dead. And I do mean IRONCLAD. Remember, unity has pulled this stunt before. In 2019 they tried to do a retroactive TOS change, and after massive public outcry just like this they enshrined in the TOS that they couldn't apply retroactive changes to old version-years, and made a public github to track the changes to "keep themselves honest". And now they've done the same thing AGAIN despite having built explicit protections against this into the TOS we all actually agreed to, using a very dubious legal loophole that I doubt will hold up in court. (I am not a lawyer.)

No change they can possibly make to the pricing terms can possibly matter as long as the terms include "we can change the terms to say whatever we want and you automatically agree to them". Essentially the pricing terms now are "we can charge you whatever we want, whenever we want, and if you don't like you you have to stop using Unity immediately." So any conciliations they make in the pricing don't matter, because we have no way of making them stick to them.

[tiny prism]

Unity will announce "hey guys pls give us money"

[thorn cloak]

Unreal & Godot have more quality and usefulness than Unity

[teal basin]

I don't think you can add an clause where it says, I will not changes the TOS. The best you can probably ask is if you changes the TOS you have to notify me and everyone.

[wary smelt]

The TOS is the biggest issue. They destroyed the very basis of any sort of B2B relationship they may have had with us

[rigid moon]

Makes retroactive TOS change
Public backlash
ok retroactive TOS change bad, makes TOS where wont ever make TOS retroactive agian
makes retroactive TOS change
public backlash

Hope they appologize and undo the changes and surely never do something like this agian, I trust unity, 3rd times a charm.

[carmine storm]

hmm, it sounds like they are proposing a pricing model that is actually much more expensive in the median and average cases

[tranquil moat]

Yes, but companies get more money by providing something more of value. What Unity announced is the ToS can be changed quietly (their promised github site for tracking ToS changes is still down) so that what you "agree" to retroactively changes to whatever they want and whenever they want. So they simply can just choose whatever charges they want without actually ever making any further improvements.

[teal basin]

It depends what is the game you want to build and what are your needs.

[vestal crown]

maaaaan this shit better not delay silksong even more

[spark shard]

You guys be good, going to bed, watch out for Elon I hear he's feeling spicy after looking at Unity's numbers

[grave spear]

whatever that is, if its on unity backed by a publisher and its not about to release, its probably halted indefinitely

[elder sleet]

he already is, he is proposing to charge for a small monthly fee for everyone to use twitter to combat the bots, this was on the radio

[vestal crown]

it is

A part two to hollow knight and that community been frothing at the mouth for YEARS for silksong

[wary smelt]

It doesn’t matter if they can change the TOS the next day

[elder sleet]

now i am going to bed night guys

[tiny crest]

Targets dev that actually have some success
It will screw up big studios mostly, unless they have the expensive licenses
But there will be one or two cases of a random indie getting the success and makes less
At the end of the day i expect the corp will get much more money by this move if my math is correct
Which 9/10 it usually isnt

[strong glade]

Yeah it was so close to coming out

[slim bough]

Silk Song is made by like 5 people lol, Even if nothing changes it would be very easy for them to purchase pro licenses

[strong glade]

Bruh they will make way more than 1 mil revenue

they are a small studio but hollow knight was a very big and popular game

[vestal crown]

yeah but the fee could force them to learn a completely different engine and then port everything from unity to said engine if possible

[wary smelt]

You know things are bad when I’m hoping that Monopoly-Soft makes another purchase

[grizzled dawn]

Oh no, it's a loop

[slim bough]

The fee would be small enough for them to be better off eating the costs then changing or delaying anything.

Not in support of the changes but Team Cherry is fortunately in a very good position to deal with them

[teal basin]

They are not f2p. They can just add 0.2$ to their game and be done with it.

[strong glade]

Yeah I think they will soon hopefully

[vestal crown]

The thing is in the pinned tags unity did apologize but rather than scraping the idea they're still trying to make it work

[ripe walrus]

The old TOS says, if we change the TOS, that can only apply to versions of Unity published after we change the TOS. So, if you use unity 2022 right now and they make changes, those changes don't apply until you update to unity 2024 and accept the unity 2024 license. That was a very reasonable compromise where they could change terms over time but devs could feel safe committing to several year projects in Unity, knowing the worst that could happen was having to remain on an old version of Unity.

It worked because, if Unity made reasonable changes to the terms there was no good reason not to accept them, but if Unity made insane changes that would ruin your business, you could peacefully wind down your project on the patch you're currently using. So you didn't have to worry about them making a change that says, like, you have to pay them 70% of your revenue. Or, they own any IP that uses their engine. Or you're not allowed to use any non-Unity tools and services for anything your company does. If Unity tried to do it, you could just stop updating your project. And Unity would never try to do that, because if they did everybody would just refuse to update. Or so we thought until a few days ago, when Unity just went ahead and did it anyway! It's madness.

Unreal TOS are similar, Epic can change them, but they can't force you to accept them on versions you already have installed, only if you install new ones.

[spark shard]

Still one of the coolest implementations of 2D & 3D in a single game I've seen can't wait to see this go live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJSMqtG0Kcs

[rigid moon]

and will probably forever continue to try to make it work, hence why this has caused people to leave unity even if they undo it.

[ripe walrus]

Yeah I mean until they drop the language that lets them make retroactive changes with no recourse, they really aren't changing anything... They can reduce the prices, but there's nothing anymore that lets devs hold them to their word anymore. They can just make these changes, or worse ones, at any time for any reason.

[wary smelt]

That’s what I love about my time with Godot, I never ever had to think about a TOS

[teal basin]

Not saying you are wrong I am saying they can remove the "ironclad protections against future retroactive TOS" later too and same for Unreal. So you can't never be completely safe even with a ironclad protections against future retroactive TOS

[grizzled dawn]

Unity probably thought if they didn't chage retroactively, then everyone would just use 2022LTS version and never update it so they forced it for everyone for 💸

[rigid moon]

except there is no indication of unreals desire or benifit or doing so, so technically anything could do that windows could charge you $1 to turn on your pc tomorrow, but doubt it.

[grave spear]

either way, unless unity makes one hell of an apology with a TOS that prevents retroactive BS, goodbye unity, and hello litterally any other engine

[brittle forge]

Just got godot and will start learning tomorrow

[rigid moon]

they did that.

[strong glade]

no

[grizzled dawn]

That apology was pretty weak considering they still want to make "some changes" with the policy and not Backtrack completely.

And they took an entire week for that one tweet.

[grave spear]

yeah no, unity can get fucked untill they want to permanently concede the ability to apply anything retroactively
untill that happens, unity can go bankrupt for all i care

[teal basin]

There was no indication before this announcement and nothing is stopping them.

so technically anything could do that windows could charge you $1 to turn on your pc tomorrow, but doubt it.
Exactly my point. It is why you always need to fight for right and freedom because any laws can be change.

[rigid moon]

They already did that, I mean in the past last time they tried to apply reotractive changes, they setup the TOS that prevents retroactive bs.

*Retroactive TOS changes

When you obtain a version of Unity, and don’t upgrade your project, we think you should be able to stick to that version of the TOS.

In practice, that is only possible if you have access to bug fixes. For this reason, we now allow users to continue to use the TOS for the same major (year-based) version number, including Long Term Stable (LTS) builds that you are using in your project.

Moving forward, we will host TOS changes on Github to give developers full transparency about what changes are happening, and when. The link is https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService.*

[grizzled dawn]

I just want Microsoft to buy it. They don't charge bs atleast right?

[limpid vine]

They apologized for two things that didn’t happen. There was no confusion nor angst. There was only betrayal.

They know what they did, they knew why it would be a problem, guy at the top even sold his stock in advance, and they had a weak backpedal preplanned. This is not an apology.

[grave spear]

i mean, time will tell relatively soon if this actually meant anything

[teal basin]

Have you see the debacle when Microsoft bought Github?

[grizzled dawn]

There was no fucking confusion. I still don't get it why are they bringing confusion into the apology ffs

[rigid moon]

it doesnt they deleted it and then went on to apply retroactive changes, so there is never going to be a guarantee that unity wont do it agian nothing they can do will give people confidence they wont apply retroactive TOS in the future

[grave spear]

they would have to somehow set it in stone in a somewhat permanent way

[teal basin]

I hope they meant their confusion

[ripe walrus]

So by ironclad protections: I'm not sure anything they did right now would actually get me back. But if you read lawyers talk about the current situation, they found a loophole in the old TOS that can be interpreted to let them do this anyway. And I feel like if they tried something again, if I wanted to try it, I'd have to pay an actual licensed contract lawyer to go over the terms for similar loopholes, at very least. But I doubt I'd bother since they've shown this strong tendency to not respect their own contracts. It's just a bad idea to enter a deal with a company well known for dishonesty, expecting Unity to keep their word is like expecting Trump to pay his venues, it's just bad business at this point.

To regain trust the best thing they could do at this point, having already blown the "change the TOS to include stronger protections" angle by trying to weasel out of their stronger protections a couple years later, would be to release the engine under an open source license and pivot their business more heavily towards the asset store and their ad platforms and away from selling Unity licenses. But it's not gonna happen. They're going to just announce a cap on the new fees and say "look it can't actually bankrupt your studio in one shot, for now! please disregard that we can change it so it can do that again tomorrow and the fact that we've already shown we would be willing to"

[rigid moon]

what exactly does "in stone" mean, some magical unchangable way?

[limpid vine]

The words of a snake carry no weight. They can say “sorry. We heard you.” But their actions do not reflect remorse, nor any acknowledgement of a mistake

[static arrow]

wow, still so many people have free time to chat

[ripe walrus]

That's what the expression means. I am not a lawyer, and apparently I demonstrated that by not catching the loopholes in the old TOS... But to be set in stone legally, I guess would mean that it's set up in such a way that nobody could ever argue that they could change it again. I can't exactly give examples, I think the best off the top of my head would be to release the engine and runtime source under an open source license that's already been tested in court.

[rigid moon]

if they already loop holed it once, they can loop hole it again.

[wary smelt]

I think you’re right, making to be open source is the only way they can fix it. But they’re too greedy and too chicken-shit

[teal basin]

And same for any vendors including any engines, it is why adding a clause to the TOS that you need to be notify whenever something changes is probably the best thing to do since you will at the very least know if they try to add loophole.

[rigid moon]

they did notify, there lawyers said they gave 3 months warning so its okay.

[ripe walrus]

Yeah essentially that's my belief too. Or, I guess my belief is, they've tried to loophole it again so they're clearly untrustworthy. I honestly do not think their loophole -- and indeed large parts of the new TOS -- will hold up in court. And I do think they're probably getting sued over this and eventually we'll find out for sure. So maybe tried to loophole their way out will be more accurate than loopholed their way out, in the long run -- but in the short run they're just simply a toxic risk! Stay away if you can!

To the best of my knowledge, no contract where one party agrees to agree to unspecified terms in the future is really legally enforceable. You can make contracts where one party can change the terms within reason, e.g. raising prices with agreed-upon notice periods and stuff, but you can't just write a contract that says "I can rewrite this contract to say whatever I want, and if you sign it that means I can hold you to whatever contract I write."

I think if somebody with a legal team as well-funded as theirs finally gets this new TOS in front of a judge, the judge is going to cross out huge amounts of the new TOS. But since I very much do not have a legal team as well-funded as Unity, it's not going to be me.

(I Am Not A Lawyer)

[wary smelt]

Like someone mentioned, they’re already breaking EU law. They’ll be laughed out of court

[teal basin]

Which one?

[manic notch]

So, are the fireworks over? We can go back to the normal Unity schedule?

[ripe walrus]

They've got laws about the unenforceable open contract stuff I mentioned I think, and laws against sweeping retroactive changes like this from what I hear. There's also real chance they're violating GDPR, at least according to official announcements (the leak if true might make this less likely).

[strong glade]

Does anybody else wish a day was longer than 24 hours? I always feel like I never have enough time to do anything because I'm too busy, if days were like at least 30 hours that would be better

[teal basin]

Not a lawyer so I can't talk about the first 2 but at least I don't think they are breaking GDPR. It assume they are phoning home which I don't think they do. But if I remember my training as long as you can't track back the user and don't keep it more than 2 years you are good. Or is it the California law?

[bitter tinsel]

Well I personally stopped caring, Unity is just too perfect of an engine for me to abandon it
(and I’m certain this will get reverted one way or another)

[strong glade]

Same I think it will get fixed but everyone else seems to just be moving on to other engines for some reason

[icy barn]

fr lol

[wary smelt]

I don’t think as many people are gonna start new projects in Unity

[strong glade]

Yeah I don't think so many indie devs should be so quick to abandon unity tho

[fair vigil]

nuh uh
time to leave
(i want unity to take back what they've done)

[wary smelt]

From what I’ve heard, the engine was stagnating too. Too many deprecated and abandoned features

[teal basin]

I think if you make the math it is still cheaper than Unreal and better than Godot for now imo. If nothing changes in 5 years, it will be different

[ripe walrus]

Fireworks are very much ongoing! In relatively recent news:
-They tweeted a super condescending non-apology where they said they apologize for the "confusion and angst". (and not for retroactively changing contracts we all agreed to, or for coming out with an insane fee that would bankrupt devs.)

-There's been a "leak" that they might be capping the max % of your revenue this fee can charge you, and switching from the spyware and AI bullshit model to a model where devs self-report installs, which is weird and stupid and still requires devs to put spyware in their games? But at least won't bankrupt anybody as it stands. If The Leaks Are True. However, the leaked changes have nothing about not making retroactive changes in the future, which means that all these concessions are worthless -- we have absolutely no way to hold them to their word.

-A dev whose game donates their profits to Planned Parenthood and to a literal Children's Hospital sent Unity an email asking if they qualified for the charity exemption, and Unity wrote back saying they don't, because in their opinion these are "political organizations" and not charities. So now in addition to everything else they're also in trouble for being right-wing bigots and just literal cartoon villains that hate children's hospitals for no reason.

[bitter tinsel]

Because people are way too quick and follow their anger

But it’s their problem, I’ll continue enjoying the best engine for now 🤷‍♂️

I don’t care about “trusting” or “not trusting” a company. It’s not like you can trust any company at all lol

[rigid moon]

politics is banned dont make it about politics or one side vs another, they are just evil company

[ripe walrus]

Hey man they're the ones that said Planned Parenthood isn't a charity. I'm just the one catchin this guy up on the drama.

[wary smelt]

Sometimes I read a script and think ”man this villain is too cartooonish”, then I see shit like this

[rigid moon]

it might not be or it might be that can be discussed, but calling them rightwing is polticial, when obviously right wing are the good guys. (see how this gets political)

[ripe walrus]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1114380/view/7132068756342000699

[teal basin]

devs to put spyware in their games
Is it not simply the sale on steam? They retracted and said the reinstall wouldn't count so it is just how many game did sell multiply by each threshold fee. No need for spyware

[wary smelt]

I g2g bed guys, hope this bullshti gets reverted

[fair vigil]

mustache twirling level shit

[ripe walrus]

Nope! For one thing people put lots of unity games on platforms that don't track sales for you. For another, it is still meant to be per install, not per sale. Reinstalls aren't meant to count unless they're on new devices and there's nothing in the leak about changing that. (Which remember is probably bullshit and should be considered bullshit until any official announcement.) Telling devs they're required to self-report an install count is telling devs they need to include an install count in their game, which for many devs is more data collection than they have any desire or reason to do right now.,

[strong glade]

You speak straight facts bro, unity is still great and I'll deal with the unfortunate event if I have to because it's just a great engine

[teal basin]

Ehhh honestly, I am not sure what is what anymore. So much thing has changed but if you need to track on every devices, it is not even possible even with spyware since spyware can be blocked or abused. So if something is going to changes or be clarify, it is probably one of them

[rigid moon]

not just an instal count an instal count that can track hardware to disable reinstalls

[strong glade]

A max % of your revenue fee would be wayyyy better

[ripe walrus]

If a mod wants to kick me for talking politics they can I guess, but honestly? The whole thing is political. It's straight up class warfare, billion dollar corps trying to bully small businesses hoping we're too weak to fight back. There's a time and a place for "no politics" rules to be respected and I don't think this is one of them. If that gets me kicked out of the group chat where I bitch about Unity instead of working that's a chance I'm willing to take honestly. But, agree to disagree about this I guess?

[plush coyote]

I think people leaves because they don't want to invest time into this long term anymore (compared to Unreal etc.) after seeing bs announcement of this scale

[strong glade]

it will still be a very low fee for some and for others it wouldn't go to an extreme level

[ripe walrus]

It would be, but sine they can just retroactively change it again, it's not much better. They'll probably just try to reintroduce this stuff more gradually over the next year or two and there's still no recourse against that sort of change but changing engines, since the new TOS no longer protects you from retroactive TOS changes.

[rigid moon]

sure talk about billion dollar companies screwing over small people, just dont bring up how great the right wing is and unity must be a evil left wing company etc that stuff will get you banned.

[marble oyster]

We're getting real political here.

[plush coyote]

Fees are not the factor that make people quit. Most people won't hit $1,000,000 for Unreal. And Godot is free. Most people won't pay any engine fees at all. But Unity job market will hurt in the coming years

[fossil sage]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/egdf-calls-for-eu-regulation-on-non-negotiable-contracts-in-wake-of-unity-backlash

[crisp sonnet]

i think hobbyists getting experience in other engines, especially unreal, is good anyways. unreal is pretty industry standard

[strong glade]

From Unity "We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback." That seems like really good news to me why is everyone still freaking out so much, I really think they will fix this

[worn orbit]

It isn't just the fee that is the problem. It isn't even the second or third most important problem most people have with this whole bad joke.

[rigid moon]

ikr why does everyone still have so much confusion and angst.

[ripe walrus]

I think at this point we just have to wait and see. We do not know what is and isn't changing. All we have is:

-A tweet that says nothing except that they "will be making changes to the policy." Nothing at all about what those changes will be yet.

-A leak that cannot possibly be verified, and which does not claim to be either a complete list of changes nor a final list of changes -- merely some changes that Unity execs discussed in a meeting today.

If you want to read them in detail they are the last two pinned messages. But right now, instead of saying "they're totally going to fix things", I think we should say "they haven't changed anything yet. It is a cause for some hope that they say they will make some changes, but until we see those changes the situation's not really changed."

Perhaps I am equally guilty of saying "they'll never change the retroactive TOS stuff which is all that really matters". Perhaps I should just stick to "there's nothing in the leak about the retroactive TOS changes."

[strong glade]

I only really see two major problems that encompass this whole thing. Trust and the fee. The fact that they'd be willing to listen to feedback shows that they actually care somewhat. Honestly I believe in unity and this helps repair some of the trust. Also they will probably fix the fee as well

[worn orbit]

That is a condescending and patronising non-apology attached to the announcement of an announcement that is already a week too late.

[strong glade]

a week too late? hasn't it not even been a full week yet?

[lusty fjord]

as well as half of all VR games (like beat saber)

[fair vigil]

how many days has it been?

[crisp sonnet]

the problem is the fact that they have the balls to make such ridiculous changes and theyre gonna hold their ground. what will they do in the future?

[strong glade]

That's not a condescending apology tbh and I'm not saying what they did was ok, I'm saying this is good news and shows that unity's not completely dead yet. That apology seems pretty standard tbh

[ripe walrus]

I believe this was announced last tuesday, so if they announce actual changes tomorrow it will be a week exactly? But I am not that great at , you know, keeping track of the days. night owl problems

[strong glade]

I believe 6

[crisp sonnet]

imagine living in the past. tuesday experiencers rise up

[ripe walrus]

and by tomorrow I mean within the next 2 hours, since Unity's on california time.

[ripe walrus]

"I apologize for your confusion and angst" is like the most textbook example of a non-apology there is. It's literally "I'm sorry that you're angry". It takes no responsibility for any wrongdoing and implies that the situation is actually the other party's fault for overreacting.

[marble oyster]

It basically weighs nothing.

[rigid moon]

"i'm sorry your so stupid and emotional that you cannot understand it properly" try that with your gf and see how it goes..

[strong glade]

That's how companies make apologies I don't know what you expect, it's gonna be more formal sounding. Plus you are saying it is implying that it's the other parties fault for overreacting but how is it implying that? It's just you already being mad so you are taking from it what you think they are trying to say purely based on emotion

[fair vigil]

there was an apology?

[rigid moon]

pinned

[crisp sonnet]

how much are u getting paid to defend a corporation rn

[fair vigil]

THAT WAS THE APOLOGY?

it didnt even register that was meant to be one

[ripe walrus]

Yeah actually in all seriousness if a partner says this kind of stuff it's a red flag for abuse.

[strong glade]

That is not at all what it said not even close stop trying to completely change the sentence. Also I tried that with my gf and nothing happened because she doesn't exist

[crisp sonnet]

unity is a toxic relationship confirmed?

[fair vigil]

"We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback."

this was apology?

[ripe walrus]

I mean deep down, we already knew that...

[strong glade]

How many times do I have to say I'M NOT DEFENDING THEM AND I SAID THEY MESSED UP AND IT'S BAD. I JUST SAID THAT IT'S A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. If they didn't say anything at all for weeks then that would've been way worse

[fair vigil]

idk it just rang hollow when i read that so didnt process that as an apology

[ripe walrus]

I agree that it isn't an apology but yes this is the tweet we are discussing currently.

[static arrow]

don't starting to fight each other now,

[placid moss]

did unity a backflip yet? 😄

[rigid moon]

they used the word "appologize" so technically its an appology.

[fair vigil]

i guess so

[static arrow]

right now every help is needed, if you don't help then you can stand a side

[strong glade]

How on earth does "We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback." sound the same as "i'm sorry your so stupid and emotional that you cannot understand it properly"

[crisp sonnet]

waiting for the unity pr guy to record a video and start it with them in tears, as happens in all apologies

[fair vigil]

idk i dont think a sorry is what people really want right now

[marble oyster]

It's nothing new right now that it could develop into this very tactic as that one guy said:

• Make an outrageous announcement
• Publicly apologise
• Wait for things to calm down.
• Implement it anyways.

[fair vigil]

yeah you can say sorry
the same way you can also write that you care about your users and then do a completely different thing

[rigid moon]

there not saying there sorry for what they did, they are saying they are sorry for how you are reacting to it.

I feel bad if you cannot tell the difference in those kinds of appologys.

[elfin fox]

Can someone give a link to the last post on Twitter from Unity? I don't have Twitter and can not find it.

[ripe walrus]

Nope! They wrote an awful condescending non-apology tweet, and leaked some meeting notes suggesting that they might back down on some aspects of the pricing, with no mention of backing down on the insane blank-check retroactive terms. And sent a dev that donates to planned parenthood and a literal children's hospital an email that says they don't consider planned parenthood or a literal children's hospital a charity, because they're "political organizations". Cuz why stick to being like a normal capitalist villain when you can be a whole ass disney villain I guess.

[strong glade]

Then what do people want? Nobody will be satisfied with anything. I'm not saying they didn't mess up but people have to chill the world is not on fire a company made a stupid decision and they are currently discussing how to change it into something that the community would be satisfied with. Everybody calm down

[static arrow]

people want is : a clean and clear policy, and every one is waiting, talking more into the situation won't help because the CEO is not in this discord, only commoners, devs and those who know nothing about the engine but want to watch drama, so don't start to fight each other

[fair vigil]

actions

[placid moss]

yea have read it allrdy 😄 we are all stupit but unity are the genius haha

[strong glade]

but people have said that even actions won't help

[fair vigil]

I do not agree with those people because that seems silly.

[glass field]

did the community win

[placid moss]

how are the laws in the usa about backward change TOS? i know inside EU its not possible

[worn orbit]

The right actions will. But they set themselves a herculean task due to their track record.

[static arrow]

slightly

[thorn cloak]

Godot for 2D and Unreal for 3D

[fair vigil]

Telling me you're sorry is very different from actually showing remorse and taking steps to try to fix what you've done.

[strong glade]

they literally are working on a new policy right now it's not like they aren't gonna change it, they most certainly are and I knew it the whole time. How could they not change such a dumb policy? It creates legal issues and would have massive companies like microsoft and Xbox going after their throats.

[placid moss]

i have see allrdy some godot 3d work dont have look bad at all

[static arrow]

there is nothing to fix, the trust is gone

[marble oyster]

Pretty sure abrupt changes on TOS shouldn't be legal in the USA either.

[fair vigil]

trust could be restored if the bad apples were removed and steps were taken to prevent this kind of shit in the future

aside from the law

[glass field]

is it time to uninstall unreal

[strong glade]

They are taking steps to fixing it bruh they didn't just say "sorry idiots, we're not changing it", they said "we are working on a new policy"

[rigid moon]

unitys lawyers said in there state it is with 3 months warning

[glass field]

how would those bad apples be able to afford another yacth though? (sarcasm)

[strong glade]

*They're it's not that hard to use the right one bro

[placid moss]

them the can only make it in there staat not worldwide 🙂

[edgy remnant]

personally I want them to remove the install count, put a rev share on actual sales and rename the engine to something else, instead of unity, at this point it's damage goods

[static arrow]

it cannot be restore, Unity don't sell product for customers, they sell products to a business and when you throw the others people business out how can you trust them anymore

[fair vigil]

as someone said before, they apologized for how their announcement made people feel rather than for what they actually did

also saying "How could they not change such a dumb policy? It creates legal issues and would have massive companies like microsoft and Xbox going after their throats." doesnt make sense because THEY MADE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE AND DOUBLED DOWN

[placid moss]

when you buy a cheap lawyers you pay double this will we call in germany on us law is it more when you get a cheap lawyer you pay at last million to billion 🙂

[fair vigil]

Its like if i destroyed something you care about, you got upset, and then I said "I'm sorry that I made you so angry" instead of saying "Hey I'm sorry for destroying your stuff"

[strong glade]

the point is they could make a dumb policy but it wouldn't EVER stand. Unity is a small little fish and microsoft and Xbox are massive sharks they would destroy them in a legal battle which they would get into because the policy affects them too

[glass field]

too bad no other engine works with C# like unity

[fair vigil]

they probably should have thought about that before attempting this in the first place

[strong glade]

Godot I believe does

[marble oyster]

There's not a lot of good game engines in general.

[static arrow]

i could say, they think they are a phoenix but actually they are a piece of KFC meal has been 3 times cooked

[rigid moon]

unity and unreal where the combo, otherwise make ur own.

[fair vigil]

I summon WWWilliam.

[strong glade]

The thing about the CEO of unity is he does not think. I don't think he has a brain except for maybe a rotten one

[static arrow]

flax

[ripe walrus]

I want the agreement I make with Unity, to use their software to run my business, to be binding to both sides. Nobody can work in an environment where they can have the rug pulled out from under them for no reason at any time like this.

That would be very difficult to achieve for them now because this is their second strike, but it isn't theoretically impossible.

In 2019, they tried to retroactively change their TOS. After massive public outcry, they revised their TOS adding specific terms to forbid those kinds of retroactive changes in the future, and created a public github repository to track TOS changes to keep them honest. That was good enough for me, in 2019, because it provided the stability I needed. Unity could make changes to the TOS for future versions, but I was clear to use the old version on the old TOS for as long as I wanted.

Then this year, they tried another retroactive TOS change, based on a very legally flimsy loophole in the old TOS. It probably will not hold up in court, but they decided to try it anyway.

For the same technique to calm this scandal to work again, they'd have to do something much more drastic to the terms than just promise to never do it again, because they promised it once already. I am not a lawyer, I cannot say exactly what terms I want to see. But this is the heart of the issue for me, and I believe for most of us. Nobody can accept working on a years-long project with terms that can change with no recourse, especially for a company that has already shown that they are willing to abuse those terms.

It's sad, but they've dug themselves a very deep hole by pulling the same trick twice.

[fair vigil]

apology meh
john bad
board bad

[glass field]

that's the thing though, it's not at the same level of unity

[static arrow]

summary it in 1 sentence

[strong glade]

Then keep using unity.... They are making a new policy and if they mess things up again then that's when you should leave

[fair vigil]

i have a better way to phrase this
they're not apologizing because they see that what they've done is wrong
they're apologizing because what they did had a bad response

[marble oyster]

That takes half a decade. :p
There are alternatives but always come with worse compromises.
Godot has a worse runtime for example, and all the other engines will have a worse editor.

[glass field]

yeah before this whole thing I was confused why some companies go through the difficulty of writing their own engine then releasing their games on that engine. it makes sense now.

[placid moss]

the can make the TOS simple

[rigid moon]

this is the second time they have done this, you should not leave the second time, and wait for a 3rd time?

[ripe walrus]

Godot has been mentioned. https://godotengine.org/
Other options include:
Stride3d https://www.stride3d.net/
Monogame/Murder https://www.monogame.net/ https://github.com/isadorasophia/murder
Flax https://flaxengine.com/blog/flax-1-4-released/

[fair vigil]

look at me
learning
getting better at communicating my thoughts instead of sending out gibberish lines of numbers and letters

[strong glade]

When has this scenario happened with unity?

[static arrow]

this time, please read TOS carefully, if their TOS allow them to change their business or how to charge people freely like before, you don't have to click : Yes, I agree

[placid moss]

rais the fee to unreal standards and make a never able point to change on the tos

[rigid moon]

last time they had to update there TOS to exclude and promise to never include retroactive TOS changes

[fair vigil]

if people actually read ToS, the world might actually be in a better place

[strong glade]

And if they never went through with it then just keep using it what's the problem

[static arrow]

only 10 pages, it won't be a day

[strong glade]

10 pages takes a day to read? Bruh that's 10-20 minutes

[glass field]

I can see godot being the replacement people long for. i'm learning c# for azure purposes, and wanted to get into game dev for practice and project building. last i checked I though godot was a python engine, but i'm mistaken. looks like godot is goign to get a lot of deserved attention.

Another engine (for 3d work) i was thinking was O3DE. it's not bounded by those restrictions like unreal is and seems to be like blender in terms of licensing

[fair vigil]

most people have the attention span of

[static arrow]

so, how many of you read their TOS and didn't notice that they are allow themselves to charge you any time they like?

[marble oyster]

At least there's the bandwagon phenomenon.

[strong glade]

I know about the TOS but I don't typically read them, it's not because they take a day to read it's just most of the time there's no need to read them

[fair vigil]

did you read the ToS when you first joined Unity?

[static arrow]

i don't use Unity, i use UE4/UE5 i join here because i like drama

[fair vigil]

oh
Did you read their ToS?

[placid moss]

the can change like the want at final but backward is again laws thats first the point and you can did some blabla like you want again 👆 but at final unity has already received the invoice for this

[static arrow]

yes

[fair vigil]

did you read all of the ToS on all the apps you have on your phone?

[rigid moon]

gotta have a lawyer present when reading and accepting TOS.

[fair vigil]

imma be honest even if you say yes im not gonna believe you cuz no one does that 💀

[bitter tinsel]

Don’t scare my wallet like that

[placid moss]

Enough lawyers have already spoken out and said it will end badly for Unity

[rigid moon]

if you don't then we are all not lawyers we are just kinda guessing what they kinda mean if we read it anyway

[fair vigil]

you probably just check reviews, and check that they aren't immediately asking for any sketchy permissions, and then just download because

well going through every single one would be
well
:(

[static arrow]

better just contact a lawyer to read and find the 'holes'

[elfin fox]

Anyone? 😄

[bitter tinsel]

I mean, I know certain people who would depending on the app. You should definitely read the TOS of essential things like game engines

[fair vigil]

my attention span would have me giving up like halfway in if i had to read every ToS of every thing that I used.

its very much possible i sold my liver already

[static arrow]

https://twitter.com/unity/status/1703547752205218265

[bitter tinsel]

Game engines, whatever you’re hoping to post content on like YouTube, etc

[rigid moon]

also if your not a lawyer your just half assuming what the words mean

[fair vigil]

i feel like a lot of people dont because they see like several million people using the engine and are like "well the ToS can't be that horrible" and join anyways

[marble oyster]

I think reading ToS becomes mandatory if you're seriously going to integrate it into your business.

[fair vigil]

oh wow unity actually got a decent amount of likes

[ripe walrus]

Alright so story time lol

In 2019, right before their IPO, Unity tried to retroactively change their terms, to do something much like this. (Raise prices, give them more power over their devs). The public outcry then was almost as loud as it is now, and in a few days, they turned around on it all. They were like, "We get it. Nobody can work under constantly changing terms. So we're amending the new terms. We're keeping some of the price increases, but they only apply to new versions and not old versions. And we're adding a clause to the TOS, that says all future TOS changes can only apply to new versions and not old versions, so you can develop on Unity with confidence that you'll be able to use Unity on the terms you actually agreed to. And to keep us honest, we're going to make a public record of all TOS changes on github."

And that worked! It calmed people down and most people were like, that was scary but this wound up being a good thing, even with the price increases having the right to use old engines under old terms well-protected is a huge win for the community.

But now we're doing exactly the same thing over again! Shot-for-shot basically. It's identical. But the same solution will not work again nearly as easily, because it has already tried and failed to protect us from this.

[bitter tinsel]

True. That’s a horrible mindset that’s way too common but it unfortunately is.

[static arrow]

likes that notify who care about the situaion like your friends your family, your lawyer

[ripe walrus]

https://github.com/thaliaarchi/unity-termsofservice this is the old TOS github, Unity quietly deleted it earlier this year in preparation for this announcement.

[strong glade]

Something will work and fix it I think. I never heard about that because I'm only 15 so I was 10 or 11 at the time and didn't use unity back then

[bitter tinsel]

I completely agree

[placid moss]

unity next stock stop will be below $10 if you want make money make some contract to put 😄

[static arrow]

it won't, keep dreaming

unless they pissed off microsoft and apple at the same time and they sanction Unity, then the stock will be 10$

[placid moss]

you are fanboy right? 😄 you will see unity going to die many ppl wont use it anymore cuz of the tos and of the image blame

[scarlet heath]

classic ad hominem

[static arrow]

do you thin Genshin impact/Honkai Star Rail, Idol Master etc will giving up Unity easily? huh?, even FGO

[scarlet heath]

hold up, Idol master is made in Unity?

[teal basin]

Right dont you like fallacy? Always a great way to start a conversation

[bitter tinsel]

Certain people will probably still use it. The engine itself isn’t bad

[placid moss]

and you think unity can live with a handfull games? 😄

[ripe walrus]

Fair enough! 2019 was a while ago, many current unity devs weren't around back then. I do think they'll try to fix it, but it's a very very hard thing to fix. Because they've already tried tried "amend the legalese to say we won't ever do this again" and then went and did it again. So the most obvious tool they have to try to regain trust, might not work again.

And one way or another trust is very important to Unity's continued existence. Right now publishers are dropping Unity games, because they don't want to risk losing money. It's easy to bet on a game making its budget back if you think the game is good and the team is capable, but it's impossible if Unity can just decide that all your profits belong to them.

And the best single thing about Unity is the community. So in the long run, damaging the community around the engine damages the engine itself.

Good on you for being a game dev at 15 by the way! I was like that, many years ago. I respect!

[placid moss]

when in future the devs dont use unity how unity want to pay his rent? with bitcoins or some stones thats the have found on the road side?

[marble oyster]

I don't think EA of game engines can work as well as EA.

[static arrow]

even Phasmo, the only one who got hurt are indie and small company, big company doesn't give a fuck, and you are talking without thinking here

[teal basin]

I think where we disagree is if there will be any future devs using Unity. Not the way they pay the rent

[ripe walrus]

They're not going to switch overnight, but they're rich enough that they can invest in a move to a custom engine if they want to. They use Unity more out of convenience than out of necessity. I'm not saying they will move, but they've got the dev power to make it happen if they decided it was the right call.

[strong glade]

Thanks for the nice response, I think one part of what they could do to fix it is fix the tos again but change it extensively to stop them from ever changing it to be like this again. It'll take a lot more than that I think but that's just a starting point at least

[static arrow]

currently Unity is the only engine that support js ,that's why Japanese industry is depending on it, which mean all of those waifu gacha will be using Unity, this is the situation of Japan right now

[placid moss]

yea i never told the engine is bad. not one will have a problem if unity rais the fee but not one will accept the pandoras box

[fair vigil]

i got distracted again

[strong glade]

If Genshin does then unity will reverse the change instantly I think because that's the main big game they were targeting with the price change. They would make a lot of money from them so they would have to change it if Genshin was gonna switch

[marble oyster]

I do hear that there are not a lot of available translated programming languages but they do have Ruby right?

[teal basin]

they can invest in a move to a custom engine if they want to
Every company is moving away from custom engine so I don't see any big company going that way.

[static arrow]

then convince Genshin doing that mr smart, Myhoyo will public a new game soon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-Gi-Oh!_Master_Duel

[strong glade]

huh

[fair vigil]

they did space
they did a place on teyvat

next is...

[static arrow]

look at the engine, most of Japnese game made on Unity

[teal basin]

CD Projekt Red and Double Fine are two examples from my head that switched from custom to Unreal. Ubisoft has 4000 employee on each Assassin Creed on their custom engine. Like making an engine cost a lot of money

[marble oyster]

Wait a second that's my line.

[bitter tinsel]

I thought Unity was exclusively C#

[static arrow]

unity has js, and because westerner never use js anymore, Japanese still use it, and don't be racist

[teal basin]

had

[placid moss]

long time ago

[bitter tinsel]

I’m surprised people use js with Unity, Japanese or not

[rigid moon]

makes me feel old

[placid moss]

me neither 😄 i know unity since version2 ^^

[silent lark]

I think js stand for java script

[bitter tinsel]

It does. I use it for web development

[frosty wind]

i didnt know java script was used for anything other then web development

[marble oyster]

I think in web. But this is the first time I've heard using JS on a software.

[ripe walrus]

I agree; if this gets fixed in a way that heals the community and preserves Unity's status as the engine of choice for indie devs, that's how it will start.

But they might just try to fix it in a way that just means old, profitable games like Hearthstone and Genshin don't leave. Unity the company makes more money off selling ads in mobile games than they do off the engine licenses, so they might just wind down work on the engine itself and try to focus on making money from ads in existing, succesful unity games.

One speculated reason behind these new fees is to do just that; their ad platform is not the most popular ad platform for unity games on phones, it's second or maybe even third-best. And these fees as originally announced were just an annoyance to most developers, but free-to-play mobile devs have a lot of installs by players who never pay for anything, so they stood to lose millions of dollars. And Unity offered to them, to waive the new fees if they switched their ad provider to the one Unity owns.

Anyways: tell me about your game dude! What are you working on?

[bitter tinsel]

Same here though excluding stuff like VSCode obviously

[scarlet heath]

if JS exists on a micro controller, it can exist anywhere

[marble oyster]

Rubbish is inescapable.

[strong glade]

I was born at a great time to start learning game development because games are extremely popular nowadays and there are many great engines out there. Also there's a game dev class at my school and a bunch of other programming or computer science related classes that I can take. I'm taking some this year and I'll take an IT class next year along with another programming class. Next semester of this year I have that game development class but in my robotics class I work on a bit of unity

[frosty wind]

Well vs code is a web app it uses electron

[placid moss]

vs code hmm i like rider 😛

[ripe walrus]

(BTW trying to bully mobile devs into using their ad platform has backfired horribly so far; a lot of games that used it have removed the ads from their game in protest of these changes)

[static arrow]

so if Unity screwed up surely Japanese still use it as main for game developing unless you can convincing them to use any other engine that support js, which mean Unity will never fall, go chat with a Japanese

[split junco]

So are you saying that recent versions of Unity still have access to JS in Japan?

[bitter tinsel]

Yeah. Stuff like VSCode for mainly just seeing and managing your code

[scarlet heath]

my hot take,
VSCode has no reason to be an electon app,

why does everythng have to be written in JS? It makes no damn sense

[scarlet cradle]

You know, one of the more shocking things I have realized is...

How in the hell has the FTC not sued Unity yet?

[bitter tinsel]

I mean, it’s pretty useful for websites at least

[scarlet cradle]

Like you think the company that did the attempt on Microsoft, would've done the same to Unity by now, but no

[strong glade]

Oh if they don't revoke these changes they will get sued for sure

[static arrow]

ok, good luck, if you can reach to Japanese community, convince them to use anything else

[scarlet cradle]

What is this bias/double standard within FTC

[scarlet heath]

I know. But it doesn't have to be EVERYWHERE.
I'm pretty sure my toaster has some JS code in it

[placid moss]

was a funny time again going back to work on my python PI MD 🙂

[frosty wind]

i dont even use vscode with unity it causes random weird problems and you have to add the vscode package to every project its just easier to use visual studio

[bitter tinsel]

It doesn’t have to be but it’s an excellent choice. My brother introduced it to me when I was around thirteen or twelve

[boreal pilot]

try find a modern cross-platform ui library that is not electron and you'll see why

[marble oyster]

It's useful because it became mandatory.

[bitter tinsel]

I don’t have a good argument against that

[rigid moon]

native js games, who needs a engine anyway

[bitter tinsel]

Wtf. Google called PHP an alternative for JavaScript. I usually use both

[strange latch]

Does anyone know/have before this pricing and after?

[marble oyster]

I will forgive python. Even if it doesn't have type safety.
But not js.

[bitter tinsel]

I knew Python but don’t remember any of my time using it

[scarlet heath]

Typescript is just a linter for JS.

[ripe walrus]

You were indeed! Making games is easier than it's ever been, there's more people doing it than it's ever been, and in some kind of theory there's more money to be made in it than there ever has been.

(Don't read too much into that last one though, the vast majority of indie games make almost no money, and games industry work usually pays a lot worse than doing the same work in other fields. My GF's also a C# programmer, she makes way more money working for an insurance company than game programmers make.)

It's a very cool and fun thing to learn how to do. In my opinion it's some of the most satisfying work you can do. I totally recommend it.

As far as Unity drama goes: if you're just basically messing around, doing projects to learn programming and stuff, it's fine. The worst problem this causes for you is that a lot of unity content creators, the people who make youtube tutorials and asset store assets and stuff, might change to different engines. These changes are only a "serious" problem if you're trying to earn money (because Unity might decide it's their money), or if you're trying to learn the engine with the specific intention of getting a job at a company that uses the engine (because Unity will probably lose a lot of market share over this, initially mostly to Unreal but in the long run who knows). If you're using Unity for class, or just for fun, you'll be okay!

[marble oyster]

That thing is as much garbage compared to js. I tried it, I would say it's basically just fake handrails.

[boreal pilot]

google just tried to tell you what it thought you wanted to hear. Not what reality is. The alternatives to javascript is currently F# and Typescript (both compile to javascript though)

[marble oyster]

So is C/C++ I think. But it's actually for a different reason.

Learning C is on my bucket list.

[bitter tinsel]

C++ for web development?

[rigid moon]

C# for unity and C++ for unreal top languages to learn for game dev imo