Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[pale mist]

But you see kinda what my point is

Well if it were 38 why do you need to play 6 cards?

4 cards of value would put them to 1

(or 0, since it's only explicitly less health that sets to 1)

[quiet sapphire]

Im saying one 2 cost cardnthat was played at the start is basically making my hand into a 3 card hand, if i play more i give automatically too much value to one 2 cost card that was played against me

And if i give so much value to that one vatd i will probably lose

[pale mist]

I mean my point is that you're still advantaged if we assume a level of swing averaging -25 to general cards

Even playing all 6

It gives more value to barbed to not play into barbed, ironically

You wouldn't say that a card's average net swing is only -12 hp yeah?

[quiet sapphire]

6*8 = 48

48 dmg is reasonable value i think for me playing 6 cards

Usually i have even more at last round

[pale mist]

Still having 102?
Based on what exactly though?

What is the value you're expecting from these 6 cards?

[quiet sapphire]

Just a comparrison against same costed card no health

Being 38

[pale mist]

Do you think that 6 cards into barbed is a rational normal case for its play?

[quiet sapphire]

Its impossible to count value by number of cards

[pale mist]

Less health has no condition, it's a free -38 in max health

Which is better than lost health

[quiet sapphire]

6 4cost cards is 6x better value than 6 1cost cards

[pale mist]

I would generally disagree with that, I think that deck cost is far from linear valuation

[quiet sapphire]

Thats where i disaagree, metric of value should be deckcost like it is in many other deckbuilding cardgames

Thats why sticky is mega overpowered

And a must have

[pale mist]

Value should be influenced by card cost absolutely

Is it linear though? Not even close

For instance, Poison is what, 4 ticks of -5 right?

At a 1 cost

Are two Poisons worth a Health Down?

[quiet sapphire]

Yes card will have sifferent functions and playstyles and combos that affect value, but averigin out every card withing same cost group should have sameish value ceililing

[quiet sapphire]

Almost yeah

At least should be imo

[pale mist]

I'd strongly disagree in my view

Health down is exceptionally and vastly superior to 2x poison

[quiet sapphire]

Huh??

2x poison is way more dmg

[pale mist]

It's 2 more damage

Versus having a permanent lower health cap

[quiet sapphire]

1x Poisom is 25 dmg

[pale mist]

I missed a 5 then

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[pale mist]

I'd still say the health down is far better

2x poison into alba headshot is a good breakpoint for it

[quiet sapphire]

Id say 2x poiso is even far better than 1x health down

Cus tracking

Litterally wallhacks for like 12 secs

[pale mist]

Hm the info does muddy it slightly in terms of utility but I think limiting max HP is super valuable

Permanently 3 shot to bodyshot by Laika for instance

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh its basically the same as dmg

If something has more dmg and tracking its better than less max hp reduce

[pale mist]

Poison x2, hit 2 laika shot, they medkit. You're now needing to hit 100% of your remaining laika mag

Health down, hit 2 laika, they medkit, you now have a shot of leeway you can miss

It's all about breakpoints

[quiet sapphire]

Its a question if they have medkit

[pale mist]

Healing is a significant and integral part of how the game functions

[quiet sapphire]

If questions arent that good for card value examination

[pale mist]

The point of less health is answering that healing in advance

It's limiting their options

Poison does not limit options

And poison can be converted to a benefit for them as well

[quiet sapphire]

Theres only one prominent healing card in the game

Medkit

Others are more niche

[pale mist]

I'd have to get others opinions on that because I feel like healing is very common

Especially given the amount of hand manipulation

[cedar compass]

5 ticks of 5

[pale mist]

Love letter becomes much better

When you barbed someone

Or when you invis hand

etc

[quiet sapphire]

Id say the traking part is as valueable as max health decrease

[pale mist]

I think that's a valid utility view

[quiet sapphire]

Love letter mega rare card

[pale mist]

maybe I'm just The™️ love letter user of all time

[quiet sapphire]

So my point stands 1x health down is sameysly valueable as 2x poison

Cost is value metric

[pale mist]

I still think that 2x poison is infinitely more interactable

All healing interacts, as well as a character, as well as venom eater

Health down Is and Always Will Be

[quiet sapphire]

Healing is already purposed for just getting damaged

[cedar compass]

Love Letter is very High risk

[pale mist]

For sure it's challenging your opponent lmao

[quiet sapphire]

I havent seen barbed letter in a looooong time

Hahe

Would be cooll to see

[pale mist]

Bahahah I took out barbed because it felt mean

I genuinely might put it back in just FOR barbed letter

I enjoy the combo

[quiet sapphire]

Barbed is mean

[quiet sapphire]

Will be what?

[pale mist]

Impactful

You can't un-health down

You can un-poisoned

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh, debatable

[pale mist]

Even if you Health Up you're still -38 from where you'd be otherwise

Its value sticks because it can't not, by design

[quiet sapphire]

The part that bugs me is "healing againt poison"

Healinng is already used for getting damaged by gunfight

Its not any different value to heal off poison or gunfights

[pale mist]

Easy example, consider Alba Spike

2x poison has you at 100
1x health down has you at 112, ya?

Alba spike does 78(?) on bodyshot, so 2xpoisoned is at 22 and health downed is at 34

Medkit got nerfed slightly iirc since last time I looked at it but it heals around 90 or something

[quiet sapphire]

Its 80

[pale mist]

Gotcha, works out

The health downed player wastes in this scenario 2 hp

lmao

?? ?? ?

[quiet sapphire]

Nothing

Continue

[pale mist]

LOL I saw nothing

Anyway, the poisoned player gets full value off their kit

These things can happen with less tight breakpoints for bigger post-effects

[quiet sapphire]

Again... thats if enemy has high burst dmg weapon like alba

[pale mist]

And often a swing of getting an extra shot or not matters al ot

[quiet sapphire]

Usually im this scenario you heal at 50 back to 150 when dmged
Or heal at 30hp back to 110 when health downed

Same value

Just harder to time

[quiet sapphire]

Im not denying health reduce has value

But it just requires better timing usually

So not that impactful

While tracking is huge value

A perfect comparrisson is ninja smoke to ninja log

Id say ninja log is about 2x value since it is much faster boosta and denies first instance of dmg

Bomb vs bomb belt is 2x value cus you get 4 bombs that do tiny amoumt less dmg than bomb but 4 of them

‐---------‐---
Value being a cost metric for balancing is how it is supposed to be in costed deckbuilders, its just that devs have gone pretty crazy in sence of balancing with allowing some cards to be mega better than others in the same cost group

As of sticky and land mine being 100 -140 dmg is insane for their average value ceiling of their cost group

@pale mist but yeah super good argumentation, this was good stuff we talked about

Ill go to sleep for now, will be happy to continue tomorrow

[pale mist]

Ya soz dippin, got stuff to do myself

Agree it's good nuanced areas

[cedar compass]

Silence! [2]

Nerf: Reduce the duration of Silence! from 4 seconds at min level and 7 seconds at max level to 2 seconds at min level and 5 seconds at max level.

Silence! is another controversial card given its ability to perform team-wide, seven second shutdowns at the press of a button. With Silence! being a debuff card, it unfortunately leaves little opportunity for counterplay, other than playing Trap cards such as Counter Card and Mirror Card on prediction (both which are options that are telegraphed) or playing your own Silence! card. While this is certainly not its strongest use case for it, players will frequently use Silence! as the very first card in a round, which can be taken advantage of on smaller maps to rush down your opponent before the seven second window is up. Silence! is certainly not a round winner by itself, however its ability to deny any further counterplay for such a long window of time, while also allowing for the caster/teammates to continue playing cards from their own hand, can certainly snowball into a stomp. The change to reduce the duration of Silence! would mitigate the potency of opening round usage on small maps (Trucks/Island), where it is easy to close the gap and capitalize on your opponent’s crippled hand state. This change would require Silence to be better timed with your attack.

-OR-

Nerf: Increase the card cost of Silence from a 2 cost card to a 3 cost card.
Silence’s ability to be a team-wide shutdown goes up in value the more players that are present within the match. The card cost for Silence should be increased given the amount of individuals that can be suppressed at any given period.

-OR-

Change: Change Silence! into a trap card that functions like an inverse Counter Card: Once Silence! is played, it activates the next time a rival plays a card. That card works as normal, but rivals are then unable to play additional cards for ~5-6 seconds. (May also want to increase cost from 2 to 3 to be in line with Counter Card)

The current (vanilla) version of Silence! is troublesome in part because of its one-sided, noninteractive nature. The card’s effect is instantaneous and has no preconditions or complications for the user, and the victim is obviously unable to retaliate or influence the card’s outcome. By changing Silence! into a trap card that only activates after a rival plays their next card, we add depth to the interaction and give the enemy options to exercise their own skill. Some examples:

-If Silence! doesn’t trigger until after the rival’s next card is played, the rival still has one more chance to play a card before the effect kicks in. Thus, it’s no longer an immediate, perfect guarantee to render the enemy helpless.

-Being a trap card, rivals can’t immediately know what card they’re dealing with, and they must make an educated guess as to which trap card it is and how to respond. In the case of Counter Card, they might want to sacrifice a weaker/more expendable card. In the case of Silence!, they might want to do the opposite: play a strong, single card to defend themselves with before they lose the ability to play more cards.

-When a player sees the enemy play a trap card and suspects it might be Silence!, there’s a pressure to play their next card quickly to get the silencing effect over with. For every second the player hesitates before making up their mind, they risk delaying the inevitable and giving the enemy more time to leverage their advantage.

@quiet sapphire better spacing wise?

[quiet sapphire]

Ye

[acoustic wing]

Another idea: Give Silence a delay on use (like 3 seconds before it goes into play)

[cedar compass]

That could also be an option, which would make Parley the perfect counter

[pearl lichen]

Ah right

[quiet sapphire]

A way to counter silence? Thats crazy bro

[quiet sapphire]

Id love to be able to counter silence

[cedar compass]

I won’t take credit for the third suggestion; Skeleton Hotel came up with the write up. My only problem with the suggestion here with a trap card rework, is that I don’t think it should punish both teammates

[acoustic wing]

Ice Block would also help with this

[cedar compass]

The amount of times when I played Graslu in warm up games and we’d basically would send each other this image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1227814355777880064/1243936568188862525/image.png?ex=6659e135&is=66588fb5&hm=53c6b16fb11849addae9969aaa0842ba2902c9018f560f440d3c9aa64c01d764&

One of us just happened to use it first, fucking the other one over out of a round

[quiet sapphire]

Yep

[cedar compass]

We would have the counters for each others cards

Just couldn’t play them because wacky tacky Silence

[quiet sapphire]

you could also add that Silence could be reworked to deny card usage of all players

that will make it way more interesting to use

[cedar compass]

Originally we had that

However, an immediate criticism was that the player/team with Silence, would just play the cards they need before activating it

Still causing a landslide because of card lockout

[quiet sapphire]

hmm

at least silencing from spawn instantly would be addressed

[near sleet]

Yeah but that is waaaay more map dependent

I think other changes are cleaner

[strange flume]

OR a way to make silence more counterable and interactive is to restrict the number of cards allowed to play in the duration of silence (I really like this idea of mine :D). For example when played, the victim can play max 3 cards in X seconds. Not only parley, but nuke, tin man and other cards that give protective benefits for limited time can be really useful to play around it.

[thorny mulch]

I still think silence should be an aoe effect throwable card like in DnD

You throw it, 1.5-ish second delay and then it silences anyone inside it

Removes the using it at start strat, makes it reactable, gives counterplay, while also now being good for area control

It would just all-round make it a more interactive card

[fervent kernel]

What if Tp bomb if a direct hit does 50 dmg and teleports you behind?

[plush dragon]

what if tp bomb gave you like 1s of invis on teleport

[strange flume]

IMO Teleport bomb doesn't need buff. It is very fun card to play and actually pretty good if you time it well. Leaving enemy bamboozled. The only issue with teleport bomb is that people prefer stronger 1 cost throwables like sticky bomb and land mine. If they get nerfed teleport bomb is really viable 1 cost throwable.

[quiet sapphire]

id rather just make the projectile traveltime faster

indirect buff

[strange flume]

Yeah, that's reasonable.

[strange flume]

I mean you won't just teleport right at the end of the enemy guns barrel right :D

[plush dragon]

make it so you can shoot mine

as it flies to the ground

like a bomb

[strange flume]

That could work. Or the explosive deals less damage if shot, but full damage if stepped on.

[fervent kernel]

Eh, I said it more like a new card idea hehe

[north wyvern]

fun buff could be if you could decide whenever you would want to teleport or not

or just be a decoy

[craggy cairn]

Teleport bomb is fine as is imo

[craggy cairn]

Oh that's really cool

[north wyvern]

adds a bit of mindgames whenever you want to risk turning around or not

[quiet sapphire]

ooooh

iv been talking about that a ton

[north wyvern]

and that could be uprgade to dale too

[quiet sapphire]

imo fun card would be decoy tp bomb belt where you get 3 decoy bombs and 1 real tp bomb

[north wyvern]

wouldnt that be abused by reroll?

or game should add non rerollable cards

[quiet sapphire]

doesnt matter, game already has bomb belt and lottery, electric fence

[north wyvern]

true

[quiet sapphire]

so if you will reroll even more you will overdraw

so its fine to add more 4 hot card cards

[north wyvern]

reason why dale is bad is that he doesnt have much cards to play around

so teleport change could add bit more play around

[cedar compass]

Dale also struggles in formats where he is by himself

[north wyvern]

yeh thats why he needs to either make enemy turn around or get behind

and baiting enemy to turn around sounds rly fun

[quiet sapphire]

yeah that would be super fun

[unreal ruin]

There are lots of times you can see the X as dale but not get crit

[winter palm]

something I think we've all been ignoring for awhile, I think they should buff the lower level versions of cards, the disparity is a bit too great between them going from a completely useless card to one of the best cards in the game, prime example would be a card like [frozen gun].

[waxen pendant]

A very good take

[pale mist]

direct hit tp bomb telefrags opponent

: )

[fervent kernel]

yesh

[quiet sapphire]

id like this but i like fake tp bombs more

[fervent kernel]

for sure

keeps the guess game going

[cedar compass]

Fake TPs? I dunno, I feel like normal TP is inconsistent enough for actually warping you that it might as well be a fake

[quiet sapphire]

It malfunctioning is an unlucky throw and a design flaw

[cedar compass]

I think it’s a fail safe

[cedar compass]

Like if it lands in an area where you shouldn’t be able to TP

[quiet sapphire]

Design-wise it should tp you to the closest allowable area

Losing tp to an unlucky trwo into a crack sucks

[cedar compass]

In a perfect world, yes that is how it should work

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

A world we strive towards

[plush dragon]

i suggest

balancing cards

[quiet sapphire]

👍

100% agreed

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-computer-notebook-explaning-gif-21152267

It was so simple

[rough sable]

10,000 messages is wild

[quiet sapphire]

devs need our feedback on balance

[rough sable]

treu

[pale mist]

Yeah I've never seen a thread with this much before either. It's a lil dead lately tho

[cedar compass]

We need to work on the balance doc more

😩

[quiet sapphire]

☝️good take

Tho brain mirror is is a fine card

[winter palm]

idk what he's on about with brain mirror, theres nothing wrong with that card.

if your still hitting their head it would be bc you're actually not aiming or you were not paying attention to the cardfeed.

also frozen gun isnt weak

[fervent kernel]

Very useful

[plush dragon]

Frozen gun is really good

It's a clutch card

Suddenly fucks up someone's play

Bad frozen gun timing fucks you up

Also brain mirror really is a skill issue

The debuff cards I do agree with tho

[jolly crown]

Sounds like a crybaby who only find winning fun but only if it is their way and no other way aka i want the game to basically be a fps because “thinking about cards make my brain hurt”. Same thing happened to Fortnite where everything became boring due to people like this who hates building. They can’t fathom the idea that there is more than the game than just shoot the guy

[plush dragon]

Diminishing others skill is way worse for gameplay than enchancing your own

[plush dragon]

I think fortnite just hit the tf2 sniper problem with building in that case

It went from "pretty approachable" to "if you haven't played for 6k hours you have basically no chance"

There's a reason why ppl in tf2 are pissed about sniper

If they are really fucking good

Then you basically get locked out of playing in a whole area of the game

It's not that sniper in tf2 or building in fortnite is overpowered by itself, its that with time people got so good at using it that the game becomes not fun for the average player

[jolly crown]

I hear this about every game at this point from fighting, rts, fps, Tetris, killer vs survivor this statement has lost its meaning because it is always from someone who just doesn’t want to put any amount of time or effort into learning and that is fine but the game shouldn’t change just because you won’t put in 2 hours into learning the basics and always about the things that take the least amount of time to learn like inputs or editing . It is so tiring

[plush dragon]

You hear this because it's a thing that happens

With enough time people will optimise the fun out of the game

I agree there's a lot of bad faith arguments about things being unfair

But the main reason ppl don't like mechanics in games is usually when they can't fight back

And it applies to all 3 of the examples

Sniper in tf2 being the only long range class that can one-shot anyone at any range

Building in fortnite being able to make someone basically untouchable

And fvf debuff cards making your side harder with not even a single kind of skillful play from the other player

It's all the problem of "I can't do anything against it"

Its the exact reason people fucking hate stun mechanics in games

You are unable to do anything

People don't mind fvf buff cards as much because buff cards require you to actually make use of them

Damage up won't mean shit if you miss every shot

Damage down on the enemy means that even if they do it well then they get less rewarded for it

There should be more incentive to make yourself stronger over weakening the enemy because that is the part of the game that requires you to play well

That's the whole deal with it at least, debuff cards are a crutch because they immediately provide you with an advantage no matter what

And things like weapon swap/disarm/frozen gun need to be played at the optimal moment to get the best advantage out of them

As opposed to silence which you just spam click at the start of the round to immediately disable a whole mechanic of someone's game

[jolly crown]

you can run a marigitta deck that only has greens and yellows to btfo most players because all they know is le debuff le good you start to see how basic most of them are can't hit shots can't play mind games can't think other than level one of thinking that is what am I going to do. most of them are stuck at level one thinking level 2 is impossible because thinking what your opponent might do is impossible for them and that is the problem the thing that makes good players and the complainers. sf6 once you hit diamond you aren't seeing modern player because there is a lot more to games than ko the enemy. That is the biggest problem the debuff aren't uncounter at all actually the polar opposite because they are gonna play much more risker because to them it is supposed to be a free win. bomb cards, weapon cards , medkit ice block, invisble, and a bunch of others. it always been a mindset problem. They lose and instead of them figuring out a way to counter it they give up then they wonder why are they stuck in low ranks it has to be the game not me. everything is counterable you just gotta know how

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah, with good take i meant this, he has couple mistakes on brain mirror and freeze gun

[plush dragon]

They aren't stuck in low ranks because they are counterable they are stuck in low ranks bc they are either smurfing or rely on debuff cards solely to win them games

One of the problems is that being weakened in any way that is unavoidable is not fun

And unlike buff cards they rely on your opponent doing well so they don't get as much and not you doing well so you get more

[quiet sapphire]

Some things in the game rn arent counterable enough id say

[foggy niche]

Sable needs a buff

[plush dragon]

As I said dealing more damage is relying on the fact you need to actually hit your shots

[quiet sapphire]

Silence, brain shot instakill, instabuttoned sdd, insta oneshot from sniper/shotgun akimbo

[plush dragon]

Sniper akimbo I agree shotgun akimbo less

[foggy niche]

I love counters ! More more !

[plush dragon]

Shotgun akimbo has a range disadvantage

[quiet sapphire]

Shotgun akimbo is easier oneshot than snioer akimbo tho

[plush dragon]

Correct

But sniper can one shot from anywhere

[quiet sapphire]

Miniscule one, most maps are close range

[quiet sapphire]

Both need addressing

Just take away akimbos dmg up per bullwt

Thats the reason they oneshot

[plush dragon]

Wait how much does Sniper bodyshot do

[quiet sapphire]

Akimbod or regular?

[plush dragon]

Regular

[quiet sapphire]

75?

Akimbod 105

[plush dragon]

Okay yeah I stand behind it then remove the damage buff

At that remove titan damage buff because like

Why?

Why does titan need a damage buff?

[quiet sapphire]

Sure

Titan is ultra boring stats diff card anyways

[plush dragon]

As if being extremely resistant to all damage is not enough

Well all damsge

All common damage

[quiet sapphire]

Bombs and bullets resistance

[plush dragon]

Yeah so every kind of damage except what

5 things in the game?

Wait no floor is lava deals fire damage I think

But yeah as I said

If you get hit by a damage buff it depends on your skill to see how much you get out of it

If the opponent gets hit by a damage debuff it depends on them how much they lose from it

[jolly crown]

I do agree with this there is only one or two cards are too specific or were nerfed to the ground where they only serves as the counter to one thing (bring back ice block) like shrink with explosive resistance can only be destroyed by shotgun if you can hit your shots or a molotov and that is if they don't run pyromania. there needs to be more counters but nerfing them to the ground is just not the way to go

[plush dragon]

Nerfing to the ground yeah but neither is leaving them like this

If you need to run counters to something because if you don't you basically lose instantly

Then it needs a nerf probably

[quiet sapphire]

No ones saying to nerf things to the ground, slight nerfs are good

[jolly crown]

it's always better to buff than to nerf unless the card is so powerful that nothing the devs can do but nerf it to the ground

[quiet sapphire]

Healthy slight nerfs are a good thing

And yes there is a lot of things rn in the hame that are op and need healthy slight nerfing

[quiet sapphire]

I wouldnt call buffing inherently good and nerfing inherently bad

Its a case by case scenario and the game needs both, buffing dead vards and slight nerfing to op must have cards that are uncounterable

[quiet sapphire]

Unfortunately rn there are more cards that are op must-haves or uncounterable that need slight nerfing than the amount of dead cards that need buffing

[pearl lichen]

If frozen gun instead applied the effect of slower fire rate or have a minigame for shooting/tapping to unfreeze faster

It wouldn't be as annoying. A lot of the more frustrating cards just don't leave room for counterplay or engagement

[quiet sapphire]

Exactly

[acoustic wing]

We should make a list of what cards feel like they need a change

[quiet sapphire]

there is one in the works

[cedar compass]

Honestly @quiet sapphire, I think at this point we may as well start getting ready to post the full change log in segments

Let’s clean up the comments on the doc

[cedar compass]

@chilly flume

[north wyvern]

the silence part seems interesting

[chilly flume]

im lookin at it, no need to ping

i read this thread a couple of times

[north wyvern]

the silence prevents stacking for some time

and its fairly powerful limiter

[cedar compass]

It would probably still function similarly where it can’t grab things like EC or Lottery

It also gets rid of the randomness associated with Profaner; if someone uses Card Profaner, you likely can recall what card they used last on the round they lost

[north wyvern]

you could keep the 2 cards but with 10 sec silence what you brought back

the current meta would destroy it with rush in push

[fervent kernel]

👏

Will miss the profaner now but that will be better for the game

[north wyvern]

i dont miss profaner

🙂

[fervent kernel]

When it used to give you back the last 2 cards you use......ah good times

[north wyvern]

never used it

[fervent kernel]

You should have been there!

[cedar compass]

Wasn’t around when that was a thing

[chilly flume]

idk how to use it with a laika deck

[cedar compass]

Card Profaner?

[north wyvern]

i dont have space for profaner 🙂

[chilly flume]

mhm, i have it included, but yeah

[cedar compass]

I mean, just use it to grab a powerful round winning combo

Smth like Akimbo or maybe an explosive

[north wyvern]

profaner getting nerfed is 1 less problem for me

but i like to argue

[fervent kernel]

Bigger sticky
Bigger sticky
Win with the rest of the cards

So fun

[north wyvern]

thick skin

nuke

parley

tin

bob n weave

[cedar compass]

As if Tin Man reliably blocks damage

[north wyvern]

see the future

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-computer-notebook-explaning-gif-21152267

[north wyvern]

reference to punsi trait too

[fervent kernel]

Hehehe

[acoustic wing]

There is one issue I see with that Card Profaner rework, and that is if you draw it early, it'll essentially be dead weight in your hand

[quiet sapphire]

I see that as fine, since it becomes super valuable later rounds

[jolly crown]

man we making yu gi oh cards now?

[winter palm]

what change log? were was this talked about?

[cedar compass]

This is not a change log; this is a separate Google doc where I and a few others have drafted ideas for balance

[winter palm]

so its based on a few ppl.

that's just asking for bias

[cedar compass]

Possibly yes, however we’re trying to make it as objective as possible

The problem with having large discussions sometimes especially in the initial talks as to what should be tweaked is that louder voices can drown out the opinions of others

[winter palm]

I really dont like the idea of pushing for changes that only a few people discuss, like sure share ideas you're always free to do so but..

[cedar compass]

Oh yes, of course we wanted to share this before like sending it over to the devs

[winter palm]

true but in the case you're talking about has the opposite effect only one voice being heard

[cedar compass]

It would be quite churlish and conceited to not post them here before shipping them

[cedar compass]

Right now the document has.. I think 8 or so people who have access

I think more actually

If you’d like, I can share it with you

[winter palm]

I mean i can give my thoughts on it if you want, I just hope a particular single person doesnt have all the influence of the list and just pushs their own ideas super hard, kinda like how ive seen around here sometimes.

[quiet sapphire]

its compiled with agreement of 6-9 knowledgeable and passionate people

[winter palm]

biggest thing I agree with on the Dox, hitbox buff for Sly Shooter (and Dale passive)

I've been saying that since he came out

seems like a bug that the hits dont register as backshot really.

[acoustic wing]

Where is the document?

[jolly crown]

6-9 people
Over 300 players daily. It’s one of the reasons I dislike devs using discord as a way to find balancing ideas too closed and if you aren’t in it you have no say on the matter

[plush dragon]

this is like the most active part of the community

there isnt a better place to look for player ideas

[jolly crown]

Just have a in-game form those are best way because people usually just want to play and not have to interact anyone . there are a lot of people who don’t join the discord and even if let’s say everyone is here that form is restricted to only 6 - 9 there is around like 30 people who still talk around here why is it so limited

[winter palm]

I agree 100%

[plush dragon]

fair enough

if you really think of it you could have something like the "how good was this match" from tf2

just about a random card

[quiet sapphire]

its coming to be public in this channel soon for all to comment on

[jolly crown]

Unless people are allowed to comment inside the doc it is not cool because it is discord comments people don’t read them if it is in the doc that is fine but then it should be open now

[quiet sapphire]

of course. but its just our group's fantasy project of having the fairest while being fun patchnotes for the game and to suggest that work to devs. its not in any way official or pressured to be in the game

also on other topic

This might be a hot take, but in my opinion generally, balance suggestions should be done by a passionate and knowledgeable group with many in-game hours with goal in their mind of being fair and to be as unbiased as possible. A person with 500 hours in-game hours with the goal in mind of being fair and to be as unbiased as possible has more valuable opinions and suggestions on balance than somebody's opinion who got 20 hours and just wants to have a silly balance

but yeah, what we call our balance suggestion summary doc would be posted soon here

[jolly crown]

Yeah and Fortnite does that and turns out and leads to the game being completely unfun but also annoying and unfun things that only someone with wiki page and data inside the code. A game should be simple and easy to understand and taking opinions from new players or from players who stopped playing will allows devs to strike nice balance between fun and comp. Fortnite used to have that during chapter but eventually they just kept listening to comp players. When you lead with people who only has 500 hours you get people with same opinion because they most likely hanging with the same group. It is important that new players or returning player have a say

[quiet sapphire]

i dunno, many new players will cry that Heartless is uncounterable

the problem with listening to newbies balancewise, is that they often lack game knowledge

[quiet sapphire]

but if you learn the game there are like +5 counters to it

[quiet sapphire]

i think Fortnite is a way different game than FvF

[plush dragon]

fortnite is a completely different kind of fps

[quiet sapphire]

im agreeing with you that FvF should have a tutorial, scirmish to test cards, better card descriptions, better matchmaking, but those are QOL changes to make learning the game easier. not balance changes

[jolly crown]

Fortnite is different game but again my point they only listen to small amount of playerbase and ignore the rest

[plush dragon]

i would easily say that every game balance should be done around the common denominaot

[quiet sapphire]

That id believe is gold/emerald but the fact is players with more gametime and gameknowlege know more to balance forcommon denominaot

[quiet sapphire]

The problem probably wasn't that they listened to a small player base. it was that the changes made were only for small playerbase and not for common denominator. There's a difference

[jolly crown]

You made changes for only the small playerbase when you only listen to them which is what is happening right now when the document is not editable by anyone

[quiet sapphire]

all of these changes are meant to be for Golds/emeralds, common denominator.

[jolly crown]

Right now you making it sound like you somehow talked with every single gold and emerald before making this doc and if that the case very impressive but otherwise it is changes only a 6 to 9 said was good for gold and emerald

[cedar compass]

Okay, before it gets too out of hand, let me clarify one thing: this by no means is a finalized list of changes

[quiet sapphire]

its the ideas and the painpoints and suggestions that we hear from golds/emeralds in the community

[jolly crown]

I know that my complain is that it is only a small group that gets to have a formal and well made document while the other people can only comment on through discord that is already less the what the player base is on steam that is my problem

[cedar compass]

The way the document is written is a tentatively list of “proposed” changes in mind, followed with reasonings as to why things should be altered. We do take comments into consideration, as any view point should be taken from several different places

We don’t just have: Nerf X because it’s unfun

[quiet sapphire]

for example many high ranks don't really have a problem with nojump, many of us have learned to traverse most maps jumpless, but we still include a nojump nerf becaseu its many Golds/emeralds painpoint and very hated card by them since they have a hard time countering it

[cedar compass]

We try to do a structured breakdown of why a card may feel unbalanced, and try to remove emotion out of the equation, since balancing around player feelings is difficult due to the negativity bias

But anyways here it is, if for some reason it cannot be commented on, let me know: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10GsdaQ3SbDrgdlxWvBavHAO0ryKEFzcMH52xNd6lQUg/edit

[quiet sapphire]

we would appreciate comments with reasonings ❤️ not just nu-uh. but here it is

[cedar compass]

If you also feel a particular card should be added or considered, feel free to comment on the section header

[jolly crown]

I’m bff and I still hate no jump but ain’t because map traverse is a pain with no jump it’s something completely different .what I’m trying to say you can’t speak for a rank that you aren’t in anymore. Because our knowledge is much higher at this point and without that fog you can only assume why they aren’t with you. I play the finals climbed all the way to diamond so I don’t know why people are hard stuck at gold or silver I can assume it’s something with aim or mindset or balancing that sucks but I truly don’t know. Same thing here I don’t know why they are stuck in gold or emeralds I can only assume

[quiet sapphire]

if there are people in lower rank than you it means they have less skill and/or gameknowlege

balancing doesn't inherently affect peoples rank

[quiet sapphire]

and as a counterpoint listening for a too wide group for balance suggestions will be way harder and worse, with many opinions based on insufficient game knowledge and a harder way to meet in the middle with contradicting suggestions from a wide group.

[jolly crown]

That is just an assumption you can say skill issue or game knowledge but there is no real way to know I seen golds able to wipe a team easily but can’t climb out at all. It all based of a guess or assumption

[quiet sapphire]

But again, here is doc made by Jayden that has summarised the suggestions of about 8 knowledgeable and passionate players, everyone is able to comment in it

[quiet sapphire]

the whole point of a ranked system is to show skill/gameknowlege

[quiet sapphire]

those golds you've seen haven't just played enough for their rank to be assessed well

[quiet sapphire]

were are in the biggest FvF community server, everyone who interests in suggestions and balance will find their way here if they will

there is no problem

since its just a fan balance notes that are made well

[jolly crown]

a ranked system like this that allows me to grind off the same person to climb. no ranked system is ever perfect a lot of them kills your rank at the end of a season. fvf lets you keep it but when you gain more than you lose in a loss from the same rank it's easy to climb it's more time than skill you just gotta play a lot to climb. I say this ranked system is flawed when 35% (number took from the last survey) are in bff the higest rank

[quiet sapphire]

for sure it is flawed

but survey shows about what rank most players are still

[plush dragon]

even if the rank system doesnt look like a belle curve

going up ranks takes time

[thick thicket]

@cedar compass what is this nerd shit.

[cedar compass]

Hyper fixation that I spent way too much time on

[thick thicket]

Should play a different game

Like cod with me and Graslu

[cedar compass]

👀

[quiet sapphire]

---

Margarita nerf: Marge can only get one arrpegio per colour per round

Stevie nerf: make Stevies Golden boira to have 10 ammo

Silence nerf: to 5 seconds from 7 seconds

Akimbo nerf: remove its dmg buff

Reroll rework: make it 2 cost but doesnt give any extra cards after rerolling you r hand

Flamethrower Fix: should not dmg through walls

Fix spawns to be tied within its gamemode --> no 3v3 spawn options in 2v2 or 1v1

Remove being able to see enemy players health when spectating a friend

---

Medium priority 🔽

Tin man nerf: to 3 cost from 2 cost

Nuke nerf: to 1 cost from 0 cost

Albatross nerf: reduce firerate to match shambering animation

Bear trap buff: change bear trap to a trapcard so that it's hidden in the card feed

Card Profaner nerf: rework to copy one card from graveyard and make it 3 cost

Counter card buff: should counter Marge arrpegio progress

Trap cards change: please remove rarity boarder on trapcards so its not visible to easily deduce what trap it could be

Sticky nerf: to max 70 dmg from 100dmg

Landmine nerf: to max 100 dmg from 130dmg

Barbed cards nerf: make its effect dissappers after 4 card usages

---

low priority 🔽

Present nerf: to cost 2 from 1cost / or add more weaponless card packages. Used very much with disarm for free weapons for both teammates

invisibility buff: to 2 cost from 3 cost

Toxic bomb fix: fix the animation duration to match its hitbox duration

Sly shooter buff: make it apply for whole team and give more wiggle room for backshots, especially vertically.

Silent steps: silences reloads too

---

this is my personal balance patch id like to see

[thick thicket]

Can we add a slot machine card? @cedar compass

[quiet sapphire]

thats litterally lottery

[cedar compass]

What do you want it to do?

[thick thicket]

Gamble

[cedar compass]

Instant round win or loss

30/70

[quiet sapphire]

id rather go play blackjack

rng sucks in fps skill based games

[thick thicket]

90% of gamblers quit just before they hit it big

[cedar compass]

Pffff

[sudden elk]

i really like all the suggested changes except for swap weapons being a cost 4, that just seems to high to be worth

[thick thicket]

Add rs duel arena to fvf @north wyvern

[cedar compass]

Honestly, after playing with swap in the community singles tournament, I’m kind of more OK with keeping it at three?

[quiet sapphire]

i advocate for keeping it at 3

keeps weapon cards at check

its not autowin when you play weapons

[winter palm]

its based on a general bias of less than 10 ppl

[cedar compass]

When you say it like that

You make us sound like villians

:C

[jolly crown]

very much this there is not enough people the fact that health down as a downside wasn't considered until I put it out there states there isn't enough people and I'm sure plently of other players from steam would have a lot of creativiy on how to balance changes

[cedar compass]

I mean Health Down is annoying, but that's true for a lot of the red cards

Most of Health Down's "problems" arise with it being stacked with Poison, or Health Down again due to Card Profaner

[winter palm]

lol nah just needs more sampling is all

[strange flume]

I am just wondering why are you antagonizing us when we try to create some kind of beginning towards bigger balance changes. After all now the balance form is published for public use and everyone can go and comment it.

[winter palm]

nobody is antagonizing anyone

[jolly crown]

I can see where you are coming from but I was talking about it being a downside a lot of these suggested changes are either rework it into a new card or change numbers about the card rather than adding a downside of some kind or increasing there isn't enough creative changes that weren't changing number there should be nerfs but nerfs that allow the card to be used but with a heavy downside

In general the doc is fine but just not enough people to comment on it that plays the games as most people here are most likely 100+ hours on the game

[strange flume]

I must have misunderstood then. I got the idea, that you didn't like what we were creating here and wanted us to stop doing that.

[strange flume]

But I don't get why you want someone with 10 hours come and comment like: Stop nuke + heartless, it is op.

[winter palm]

no by all means suggest away

[jolly crown]

because it's a fresh pair of eyes compared to the old eyes we all have and personally I hate that combo since the stat is just hide or throw fire at them or using poison with smg or Ak-47

[cedar compass]

I mean... I don't like Nuke + Heartless :P
Counters aside, for Koutu's tournament and Friends Clash; they both have rules stating that the Heart has to be shootable in order for it to not be considered exploiting... but Heartless + Nuke literally violates that clause and everyone is fine with it

[winter palm]

nuke heartless is very weak outside of double nuke imo

very easy to hide if its not the moon map

[strange flume]

I wanted to give an easy example, that is indeed considered annoying for the game, but isn't broken on its own.

[cedar compass]

Tbh, if I use Heartless and throw a Molebot over it such that the only way for the Heart to be destroyed is via a Karrotov (cannot be destroyed with a Bomb or a bullet), I don't see why that is illegal when Heartless + Nuke takes destroying the heart out the equation entirely

[quiet sapphire]

there is discord link in steam forums

[jolly crown]

I'm saying you should not being forced to join a discord server at all to be allowed to say something about the balance

[quiet sapphire]

how it isnt??

people say balance stuff all the time in steam

[strange flume]

IMO this isn't one of those games where a brand new pair of eyes can tell if something is wrong in the game or not. I think that this really requires an experienced view. Because sure: one can say that yes this card is bad for the game, but only more experienced player can tell why the card is bad for the game.

[strange flume]

Also if people want to come and discuss about balance then I see no problem with requirement of joining discord, because that requires some kind of an effort and therefore requires players to have some kind of interest in this topic.

[jolly crown]

yeah but those aren't usually commented on by the devs nor is there this document that allows people to put their suggests in a clean fashion

[quiet sapphire]

Jayden put his hard work on it, that's why it exists

[jolly crown]

most people hate having join a discord server for a download or just to talk about changes and I hate that too hell the only reason I'm here is because I want bad changes to stop most of my comments on this server and only this thread

[quiet sapphire]

👆

[quiet sapphire]

Every one in steam can and is talking about balance. its on devs not to hear steam people

[plush dragon]

^

be active in the community to speak in the community

[jolly crown]

interest doesn't mean being forced into somewhere just talk about the one thing you care hell most of the reason I don't play discord fighters is because I need to join a discord just for matchmaking most people don't want to do that either do I and most people don't want to join discord where most of the rules are weird and wacky. that is why there can be thousand people in a server but only 10 that talks often.

[plush dragon]

what a way

[jolly crown]

not saying this discord rules are wacky but most other ones are

[strange flume]

I am having a little hard time understanding what you are stating here, but I think discord is so widespread and open platform, that your argument is really invalid. This is because almost every games active community is nowadays located in discord (applies with this game), people who are interested in game related topics join discord. IT IS literally marketed as a social media for gamers. Also the public servers are easily joinable and discussing there with solid arguments doesn't require some kind of a high barrier. You can literally use the same email and password as creating steam account and do well with it in discord.

[strange flume]

Interest is literally giving effort to some topic, hobby etc. to get into it and understand it.

I can give you an example: If I want stay in touch with my local game shop, they still use facebook. I don't have facebook account and I don't consider having facebook account worth the effort of joining the group. Therefore my interest in topic isn't high enough to actually take part in the community FB.

[quiet sapphire]

nobody is forced nowhere

[jolly crown]

that is becasue you don't get it most people don't want make a new account just to talk nor fill it up with a bunch of server for games you play once or twice. I'm in like 20 discord servers and I only talk often in one server and talking on a platform when there is one right there built into the game launcher is something a lot of people do including me. I rather put in my effort in getting good and learning but not talk. people just don't want to talk to players in this age. I don't want to talk other than to talk about balance changes I should be able to talk in the steam forums with the devs listening. I don't want to have to make account click on a link, do some anti-bot and alt bot thing, find the channel I want to talk about, read the room what the people are talking about, type what I want to say then I can head out. or I can just click the discussions button on steam, create a post and say what I want to say.

[quiet sapphire]

how is it a bad thing we are active in discord?

[quiet sapphire]

its perfectly ok to discuss balance in steam forums

[jolly crown]

not forced in sense you have to but more of forced if you want to be heard by the devs

[quiet sapphire]

devs check those too

[quiet sapphire]

devs watch steam forums too

its their responcibility

[jolly crown]

I don't see anything when I check there it's quiet city there

[quiet sapphire]

then you should just dm devs and say to them to be more active in steam

[quiet sapphire]

thats a feedback for devs to work on

[strange flume]

Exactly my point: People who play the games like 10-20 hours and leave it after the experience are not going to do the job of joining and talking about balancing and IMO that's good, because their understanding of the game will be very subjective and not very open minded. You who stated being BFF and I estimate you have 50+ hours are here because you want to make your voice heard. Guess what: Now is the perfect opportunity, since the balancing idea form is now available

Also steam makes you do the anti-bot thingy too when creating account IIRC.

[fervent kernel]

Aim bff like 30~35 hours?👀

[strange flume]

It took me around 45.

Though I am bad at aiming, so not too bad IMO.

[fervent kernel]

Hehe

I just made an educated guess. Used to take 50 ish and they basically doubled the process

[strange flume]

Yeah I was right about to reach golden friend (when it was the max rank), but right when I was there, BFF got published and then I got myself there eventually.

[fervent kernel]

Hehe goodie

Tho I wonder, what are balance discussion topics nowadays?

[strange flume]

Go and check out the form. I think there are really great suggestions.

[fervent kernel]

But I'm lazyyyyyy

[jolly crown]

a lot of people play games for hundreds to thousands of hours without touching discord including me. discord should not be a barrier to talk about balance and be heard by the devs hell some of my friends has 70 hours and hasn't touched discord once.

[quiet sapphire]

it is not a barrier to talk about balance, its perfectly fine to talk balance in steam forums, and devs are supposed to check them too

[strange flume]

If you put that many hours in the game and don't want to communicate the most efficient and open way possible, then a) You are satisfied with the current state of the game and don't need to talk about the issues. b) You don't have any good ideas how to improve the issue.

[quiet sapphire]

you sound like you are saying, "because steam discussion is not active in balance, its not fair that discord discussions is"

[strange flume]

This TBH.

[fervent kernel]

Can I suggest a thing? I know some ppl don't like that some buff/debuffs don't correlate to eachother(small and big head for example) but what if that was the norm? Well More so in thr fact that buffs should have a lil more then the debuff counter parts(like health uppie)

Probs like a 10% on stats(except a few like health uppie)

[cedar compass]

You mean like

[fervent kernel]

Fast reload 50
Slow reload 40

Like that

[cedar compass]

And it should fully counteract it?

[strange flume]

I can give another example of mine: I play Project diva mega mix (213 hours total ATM). It is a rhythm game that suffers from random stuttering and it frustates everyone who plays the game. I haven't joined the discord because although I am aware of the issue, and would like to see if people have got any ideas how to fix it permanently I have found a good enough solution to make it more managable and I don't need community support.

If you really want something you should go after it, but if you are too lazy, then just be satisfied with the things you have available.

[fervent kernel]

Ye, I know that might be a problem but atm. Debuffs are way better picks for a deck then buffs
(No one runs a quick reload just to counter a slow in a normal game situation)

[cedar compass]

Buffs and debuffs are additive at the moment, so if they match they in theory should counteract one another

[fervent kernel]

I guess the main problem might be steel bullets

[cedar compass]

Steel is +21%
Rubber is -21

[fervent kernel]

Ye making that +10 would just make the game go pop!

[cedar compass]

Damage is weird since like

[jolly crown]

it's more of the barrier of having make a create a account just to see what people are talking about versus somehting like reddit you don't need to login unless it's a nsfw subreddit. it allows for lurkers without acccunts and makes it easier for someone to bud in when they want to talk about something by making a account. people just don't want to it should be such like that

[cedar compass]

It rounds weirdly on limbs

[quiet sapphire]

^^

[cedar compass]

For instance, Spike has +12% with his Bigger personality

[strange flume]

But you cannot go and comment in reddit without account.

[fervent kernel]

But think about
Small, big mags
Move faster, slow(maybe hehe)
Slow, quickie
More accuracy, less accuracy

[strange flume]

Also steam requires an account.

[strange flume]

^^^

[cedar compass]

@fervent kernel
But for a gun like Brasshopper, Spike get’s no benefit for having +12% extra damage except changing his leg shot damage from 4 to 5 (for close range)

[fervent kernel]

nooooo

Silly gun

[jolly crown]

but i can see what people are talking about. a lot of time people see that someone already said what they were about to say and don't talk and the steam forums you can still check it without a account if you really want to

[strange flume]

YES. But we are talking about discussing about the balancing or whatever game related stuff you need to do.

[strange flume]

If you really want to know what is going on RIGHT AT THE MOMENT you need to take a part in a community that is actively talking about it.

[quiet sapphire]

if you want more activity in steam forums make a good balance list there

[strange flume]

For example if I want to know if for example other card games I play have gotten some new cards or similar crap, I HAVE TO BE in the communities that discuss and tell me about it if I want to be the first to know about it, because eventually it will be discussed in some random ass steam forum, but then the cards have been around for a while probably.

I mean you can literally go on and post that above link into FVF steam community, but you will be more up to date here, than there.

[jolly crown]

there is a lot people who like just lurking around. I lurk on reddit without a account for hours some time. I shouldn't have to make a account just to see some comment to decide if I want to say something. instead I should be able to see some discuss to decide if I want to make a account to say something but it all goes back to I don't want to want to make a account just to stay updated on games

[strange flume]

Then you are not invested enough that you should get the most up to date information immediatly. Like I really hate the fact that you are not really counter arguing here. You are just presenting your own perspectives here over and over again without any intent to change your opinion or perspective. Sure, you should be able to check some patching information or other already figured out data when it is needed (for example bug fixes, known issues, glitches etc.). But active balancing is going to change its form of data all the time, so if we just go on and post our current ideas into the steam forums, they will be outdated pretty damn fast. Therefore there is no any idea of doing that before game devs have made the final decision and implemented these changes into the game.

Given this judgment if all the people are this way, there is no way to make the card balance form work if nobody is ready to give a chance to change their opinion.

Sure devs should check steam forums, but they should check discord too. AND BOTH PLATFORMS REQUIRE ACCOUNTS TO BE ABLE TO RECEIVE COMMENTS AND CRITICISM.

[jolly crown]

because there is no counter arguement to make. your position is "if you don't want to make a discord you aren't invested in enough" and my position is "you don't need to make a another account to be invested" it's a endless circle because we see being invested in something as two different there is nothing to change all I can do you give a different perspective and all you can do is the same. we can agree to disagree because at this point we are running in circles. the only thing I can say is the document should on the steam discussions but instead I will make my own document and put it there for steam forum users then upload it here.

[strange flume]

Fair enough. I like this conclusion.

[waxen pendant]

[thick thicket]

Did you read?

[pale mist]

Many ranked systems fail miserably at doing that lol
FvF's doesn't show skill/knowledge, it shows grind time and "Did you just run the meta deck". (Edit: Or yeah, did you grind off someone lol)

Nojump is a shit design, not because of routing knowledge, but because its entire concept IS making the game feel like dogshit. That's literally the point of the card. Can I navigate a map with nojump? Yes. Do I hate the card more than anything else? Yes. It doesn't auto win a round on me, but it actively DOES make the game not enjoyable. It's not that having a problem to play around is the issue, it's that the problem it forces you to play around is unengaging, poorly considered, and flattens the game. Your BFF players that run Double Jump, considered on its own to be one of the weakest buffs, literally solely to counter Nojump, taking a slot out of their deck and cost for literally a single card counter because Nojump is that unengaging and oppressive on a map by map basis, are proof enough that "Just deal with Nojump if you don't like it it's probably just skill issue" is a terrible take

[jolly crown]

👆

[quiet sapphire]

I agree that nojump makes the game way less enjoyable, but not unwinnable similarly to how pixelvision makes the game less enjoyable. Unless its trucks red spawn nojump can be navigated and round still winned. I personally have learned many nojump paths in maps and dont run double jump in any of my decks

Regardless of this i do agree reworking it will be better for the game

[pale mist]

I mean again my point isn't that it makes it unwinnable

My point is that it makes the game bad

[quiet sapphire]

Sure

[pale mist]

Pixelvision is way less disruptive

Like incomparably

[jolly crown]

A lot of the counters or stall cards so you at least can choose to not deal with it got nerfed to hell so even more unfun because you can’t just use cards to choose to not deal with it. Bring back ice bloc

[quiet sapphire]

Unless its long range fight

[pale mist]

I mean

I dunno I don't mind it

[quiet sapphire]

Huh? Ice block is still very good

[pale mist]

Ironically some places are easier to see with pixel vision

like with some of the background stuff on tabletop

spike peeking over the dm screen

etc

[quiet sapphire]

What stall cards got nerfed to hell??

[jolly crown]

If I can’t stall out shrink or no jumps it sucks

[pale mist]

Ice block can get one magged

I agree that Ice Block should never have been nerfed

Who was like

"man,

ykno,

this ice block card? Too good."

[jolly crown]

It was for free for all stalling

[quiet sapphire]

Imo thats a timer problem on shrink

[pale mist]

Well I agree but NJ is similar

[quiet sapphire]

We all agree shrink timer should be reduced

[pale mist]

None of these debuffs/etc should have 20s timers

that's insane

[quiet sapphire]

Exactly

[pale mist]

also just fix my damn character /lh

Tired of not being able to play jawhara

Because their passive just doesn't work

:T

[quiet sapphire]

Oof

Jawhara has the most boring passive in the game😭

0 impact on gameplan

Just tank

[pale mist]

Disagree

You play angles differently

vertical peeks are preferred

etc

[quiet sapphire]

Headglitching?

[pale mist]

Low ground also changes prio

[quiet sapphire]

Meh

[jolly crown]

That is dj newton doe

[pale mist]

Dropdowns to lowground become preferable in many more scenarios

since your head then blocks your body etc

[quiet sapphire]

Naaah not at all bro

[pale mist]

If she just took x% less damage

Then I'd agree

The fact that it's on headshots makes for some interesting positional questions and differences in routing

[quiet sapphire]

Newton has many cards he likes to be in deck and combos with

[pale mist]

IF it worked that is

:TTTTT

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh im more focused on deckbuiling, she has 0 card that combo with her

[pale mist]

WALL

:D

I'm only half memeing

you'll see

I'll make wall real

It's gonna happen

[jolly crown]

Ain’t no one be like damn I gotta play dj newton their passive is completely crazy dj like weapons but everyone else likes weapons too

[pale mist]

Hmmmm

[quiet sapphire]

@pale mist the only things in terms of deck bulding its that you dont want to play mirror brain, smal head or helmet

[pale mist]

DJ actually

Gets a sHIT load of value out of the present selection

[quiet sapphire]

Dj makes brasshopper, ak abd shotgun insane

[pale mist]

Since she really wants brasshopper and the akimbo fks

she will just win

[quiet sapphire]

Ak and brass are acrually worth to put in deck with dj

Not all chars like brass and ak in deck

Also with shotgun dj has advanage on range

Way different than other chard

[foggy niche]

Boo

[jolly crown]

Everyone likes that just pair it with poison those are good guns dj just makes them more accurate that is literally the extent of their card passive very boring

[pale mist]

When the guns are ridiculously inaccurate otherwise yeah

it's pretty good

It becomes laser

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the thing, yoj dont have to pair them with poison with dj

Playing dry brass or ak with DJ is worth it

With other chars not so much

ALSO

Mind blow is worh it to play without big head with dj

[jolly crown]

Brasshopper is good if you have good tracking simple as. Dj is the character you play if you really hate bullet spread but in this game that isn’t that crazy

[quiet sapphire]

More accu so easy to hit normal brains, for other chars it toi risky

[quiet sapphire]

The bloom on brass makes it a bad weapon

With dj it actually good

Simple as

[jolly crown]

Nah it ain’t that bad just a skill issue

[quiet sapphire]

The dps increses on dj cus you can have higher firerste and keep good accuracy

If you try to have same firerate as dj you will simply have less dps cus of way bigger bullet bloom

The fact that dj decreases bloom, increses his firerate and spammability which increases dps

That is most apparent with brass

If you play nopassive against me on dj and we both have brass i will pretty much always win

With no other cards in play

[quiet sapphire]

I hope you know that there is no spray patterns in game, its just random bloom

[jolly crown]

Yeah in no using cards at all dj would win but again their passive isn’t that crazy because the boom by itself ring but also in game where is so many different to approach your opponent you almost always end up very close to them. Making the passive map dependent and with subway and gas station there is a crap ton of cover. So you end up having to play a run style to be able to use passive effectively and if it was in reverse your opponent is probably about to die so you don’t need to hit them that much. But what I’m really trying to get at is. Dj newton is boring because you need to run a weapon deck use that passive

[quiet sapphire]

I mean his passive affects normal boira too

You still get ton of benefit while in boira

[quiet sapphire]

He is just as boring as spike

He plays weapon deck only too

But alt least DJ maked brass usable

And spike doesnt affect brass

[cedar compass]

Don’t you disrespect my main with this slander

[cedar compass]

THAT ONE EXTRA DAMAGE ON LEG IS HUGE

[jolly crown]

But spike doesn’t need to run a weapon deck to make use of their passive they still get extra damage by default dj kinda needs to

[quiet sapphire]

Just like DJ gets accuracy benefit with normal boira too

Dj accuracy affects normal boira a ton

[jolly crown]

Yeah but it’s just not as crazy as spike with steel bullets

[quiet sapphire]

I can spam your head from long range

You cant

[quiet sapphire]

Spike passive is lower than lvl 1 steelbullets xD

[jolly crown]

Yeah but is 3000 hours in kovaak minimum to be able to do that with 60% hit accuracy

[quiet sapphire]

Its not comparable to steel at any level

[quiet sapphire]

With dj its possible to spam long range max firarate and hit with normal boira, with spike no

I think you just havent played DJ to understand how he is played

[quiet sapphire]

Its not a disrespect. I think DJ is has many intricasies, spike the same

[jolly crown]

I’m trying to say that skill required to do that something only aim master would able to take advantage of

[quiet sapphire]

Nope, its simple and easy to benefit from, you can spam max firerete with good accuracy, others have to tap and burst to keep being accurate

Spamming max firerate and getting DJ benefit is easy

[chilly flume]

but what if you want to play other characters

[jolly crown]

Yeah but skill required to keep your crosshair glued to your target requires a fuck ton of skill that I doubt anyone playing this game has. As spike even if I miss shots I’m still getting the benefit of their passive with the shots I do hit

[chilly flume]

that applies to a lot of games tho

sorry im not here to down play or anything, im just implementing an opinion, and genuinly want a solution that is fun to play not broken but not too underpowered, there is no way to find the perfect balance, cause sometimes you need to do something else to boost something else, or you need to not kill something entirely but try to make it still powerful but only by a difference of very little

also im on no ones side for this i will make that clear

simple term would be me like game, me want more players

[jolly crown]

We are just talking about if dj = boring

[chilly flume]

hmmm

50/50

people with decent aim will become god like while others will barely feel the difference

its player dependent i think

i would say people with decent aim or god like aim could have greater aim and winn more rounds purely on hitting their shots will either lean toward mobility characters (haru, moose) or laika or dj newton

so it really is player advantage i think

tbh i think the tournament coming up will determine that since some will pick dj newton for the edge

[jolly crown]

Not decent aim I mean god tier aim like 2000 hours in aim trainers with a routine that is actually decent. You can hit most non-tactical shooters max rank with only couple hours on aim trainers hell I got to max rank in this game with only 100 hours. everyone playing this game is just not him which is why dj = boring

[chilly flume]

then of course rest is just mains

this is purely perspective, since you have good aim you don't need to use newton, some people use it to make up for the lack of aim or decent to get to god like

every character has a certian player playstyle, fun, chaotic, etc. if you excel at one aspect then one character will be either perfect fit, boring, or overall fun

if you have good aim and feel dj will give you an EVEN bigger edge then you find it enjoyable, if you feel as tho it doesn't change anything then you wont find it fun but boring

tho what i am stating is general aspect and not zonin into dj

for people that like challanges then 2 bullets only is always fun (ams laika main)

[jolly crown]

I don’t mean like 1000 hours in fvf. I don’t mean 1000 hours in kovaak I mean hitting like 98% percentile or higher on any scenario to make good use of newton passive. Because headshots are what make newton like crazy but no one who plays this games has that level of skill to make good use of the passive

[chilly flume]

well they are a rare breed

tho i think i have a friend that mains em, cause they are like a laser :p

[jolly crown]

Yeah that is why dj newton = boring because you need to that tier of aim to make good use of the passive

[quiet sapphire]

if you miss shots as Spike you still get the benefit??

think about it more

[chilly flume]

if you miss shots with spike they shoot you back if they have better aim, also spike's increase damage doesn't do too much? idk, i never felt the impact that much

[jolly crown]

Overall your dps will be better even if you miss shots if you miss shots as dj you aren’t getting anything think about it more

[pale mist]

I lost you

lmao

Soo

Charitably

[quiet sapphire]

• 1st you miss shots less with dj
• 2st bullets dont do anything if they are missed

[pale mist]

I agree that DJ is a character with lower safety

As in

You can't spray and pray a final chip damage or something

If you're not doing all the work, you're not getting the value

Sometimes yes you would want something with spray, because it saturates an aread more fully than mouse shake

[jolly crown]

So dj newton just give aim bot now that is crazy . I’m talking about shot hit ratio if both players hit equal shots spike is gonna win it out dj only has the advantage long range and that requires the ability to hit your shots. Overall everyone playing this game doesn’t have the level of aim required to make good use of dj’s passive and it’s also map depend because even if you can hit all shots you are still gonna end up in a close range battle with spike versus dj everything about dj is if you miss you get out nothing of it because in the end you have a basic gun with no damage increase. They are very boring because you need to have a high enough level of aim skill make it the perk worthwhile without running weapons spike doesn’t need that level of godlike aim to make good use of their passive without weapon aka dj is forced into a weapon deck and spike is not

[quiet sapphire]

ill agree to disagree, dj will have higher firerate and possible less misses and possible more chanses to headshot, he has better dps

also dj makes brass, ak playable and makes shotgun different to use

not boring

[chilly flume]

same with fk right?

oh wait

you said that already

[quiet sapphire]

yeah, i dislike playing ak with anyone else than dj

brass as a card too

[chilly flume]

i also agree to disagree, since it depends on the weapons they are using

default maybe spike but maybe by a hair

other cards dj has more of an advantage since the high damage is more packed into a point

[strange flume]

IMO in many cases the current stevie gull is just better than DJ newton and Spike Remington and that needs a change. It is kinda similar to energy drink, where it gives more buffs, but only temporarely (and not many play speed up, or faster reload). Whereas if you play stevie, as long as you are running the base weapon (Golden boira) You are going to do better than Spike and DJ.

[quiet sapphire]

Good point from steam

Balancing the game will make a better environment for casuals and comp players

Thats the goal of these balance suggestions

[foggy niche]

Sable 🗣️

[chilly flume]

I think i faced that person before?

[winter palm]

tinman and shrink yes, no jump is ok imo

tinman needs duration nerf, and its slow increased.

shrink everyone seems to agree 5 seconds off its duration

(also mindblowing should remain lower duration than tinman it may need a nerf aswell as nerfing tinman might be a indirect buff to MB)

[quiet sapphire]

id strongly rather 3 cost for tinman but duration decrease could work too

[quiet sapphire]

nerf to mindblowing would be good, but decreasing mindblowing duration hardly matters

its usually prealigned to instashoot and instakill

[winter palm]

no that part is fine, just trying not to buff it with the tinman nerf..

did you not read my whole text?

[chilly flume]

I think all 3’s time should be decreased, maybe shrink should be a tiny bit bigger? Instead of an ant, maybe a mouse
Other than that just time decrease would be fine, maybe up tin man cost
Maybe the others as well

The times I find no jump very frustrating is when you’re on a very vertical heavy maps, and no jump makes you a sitting duck on those type of maps.

Which is almost every map except pool day now that think about it

[fervent kernel]

Who needs the highground anyway👁️

[pearl lichen]

I still wish that invisible hand had a timer

And I don't want people giving me the "um if they saved garbage, thorns, Invis until now they earned the round' 🤓 ☝️

No my issue with that combo is you virtually make the opponent unable to play any cards for that round, which negates any fun

And specially if it's trios were it can be played thrice

[strange flume]

I think in the form there a better idea, where you can see the card you are holding, but other cards are invisible, but you can switch to other card to see that card.

[pearl lichen]

I think that is also not a bad solution, it hinders your gameplay without feeling like 0 counter and makes it more worth wile to have 404

Since if you know ti's in your deck you scour for it

[cedar compass]

I’m once again posting the balance doc just for newcomers in the thread: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10GsdaQ3SbDrgdlxWvBavHAO0ryKEFzcMH52xNd6lQUg/edit

I’ll likely go through it today once again addressing comments

[cedar compass]

But yes, I wish invisible hand was dead also had a timer/would be limited to what card you are looking at

I’m also going to like.. properly test out Spike’s Big Bullets card

Because the damage buff that Spike is getting isn’t adding up empirically

[strange flume]

Could some admin or similar pin it? 🤔

[cedar compass]

We could always make a new thread, but I wouldn’t want to split this thread’s discussion

[strange flume]

What if we just do it, let's just desert this thread and make one that is more easier to control with the balance docs instead of going up 100+ messages.

[jolly crown]

because it's harder to track but also the doc doesn't allow for quick replies compared to discord

[cedar compass]

I would need to setup at least 5-8 threads for the different card types

[strange flume]

If we make a new thread, which has the link as the description. The thread could be used to discuss and argue about new changes and the docs could be used for more final and more sharpened ideas and suggestions.

[strange flume]

@cedar compass how about this?

The current thread serves as a good platform, but is inefficient in practice and requires someone who actively uses the thread to copy ideas there. Leaving the original poster wihtout any credit.

[jolly crown]

this thread is perfectly fine as it because the doc is really slow to reply unless you check your emails often a nice idea would be to put the link on description on this thread

[strange flume]

So why won't we just make new one? With that link as the description. It is not like this thread is anything special. It is just thread that has gotten more attention than others.

We just popularize the new thread and make it more active.

[jolly crown]

that would be tough since this is already the home for just talking about balance changes and now having a doc be the centered of discussion might be hard for some people who don't feel comfortable using docs for whatever reason

[strange flume]

I am not going to stick to the user interface issue you are having here (once again) (Guess I still did).
I think that people could discuss anything related to topic in that new thread (similar to this) BUT it would be easy to refer if an idea is already in use OR if new ideas should be written to the document. You could go: "Hey you, go and write that idea to the document, it is pretty cool" and the receiving end would have absolutely no problems understanding where they should write it and you don't have to repost the link all the time. Or you could just say: "check the description of the thread"

[jolly crown]

it's a little bit more effort than typing on discord since if you are on mobile you have to download google docs or (if you know just request for the desktop site) to comment and if you are on pc you are fine just some people only use mobile discord and I doubt the same people using discord bother with google docs to the point where they have that downloaded by now. it's a effort problem that is it

[strange flume]

And I don't think it would be tough, since most of the people who are talking about balance changes here would be aware and move to the other thread. Also if we give it reasonable name like: Card balancing: On time. It would seem obvious to new players that it would be the thread where the discussion on time balancing happens.

[strange flume]

But if they are going to discuss about the idea, which would be the optimal situation. The person with the idea can just go: "Hey you cool guy who I just discussed about this topic, could you please post my idea to the document"?

Also using word is actually more complicated than docs IMO.

This too: you can just write your idea somewhere into your phone and write it when you get to your PC. It is not like this game is a mobile game.

I just think that new thread with simple QOL update could make this topic more approachable and open.

[quiet sapphire]

I think 1k messages is makes thread more interesting to check out

[strange flume]

True, but I think if we can market the new thread as the better one or make it seem as this thread has outlived its usefulness, we can just make the thread and continue there without any issue. One idea could be also that if someone starts discussing here, we can just say that the other thread is a better place for that.

[strange flume]

But I think it is totally up to Jayden, since he is technically the owner of the document.

[glass egret]

My face when enemy stacked slow reload and instead of frozen gun they used empty mag:

[cedar compass]

Stacking needs to die honestly

[cedar compass]

If someone uses a slow reload for -40%, the second one should just add -10% and any further ones do nothing

[glass egret]

-50% is still a LOT more than 3-4 seconds of frozen gun

[cedar compass]

I mean at that point they're are either spending 4 card points

Or almost 8 if they are using card profaner to do the stack

[cedar compass]

My friend Slush did the calculations and timings out, check out this thread here: https://discord.com/channels/484663656777515040/1252411168987942932

TL;DR:
First slow reload puts an almost 75% reload speed penalty, while the second slow reload puts it to 210% reload speed penalty

[cedar compass]

Somehow, we have all gaslit ourselves into thinking that this is okay

[glass egret]

Holy shit

6 times slower?!

This is insane.

[pearl lichen]

OH WHOA

NO WONDER

[novel mango]

Text

[glass egret]

Real

[dark sparrow]

I recommend moving the talk to #1253051964820947086 and give a link back to this post to have a log of the conversation if it's related. Suggestions-Ideas won't be holding balance threads any further. Balance-feedback will be the organized place to talk about balance.

Once you know this, we are locking and closing this thread later, don't take too long x_x.

I know that this thread was made before the creation of #1253051964820947086 , however, we can't move the thread between forums yet since Discord hasn't implemented that feature even if it's widely requested. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[quiet sapphire]

RIP Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]🕯️ 🕯️

i will never forget this place ❤️