Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[quiet sapphire]

Yesh last balance changes werent good

[fervent kernel]

Making it 20 or 15 would be goodie

[near sleet]

I disagree I think they were good changes that lined up poorly into a meta with more problematic cards like shrink

Ice block only being 300 isn’t bad bc ice block needs 600 health

It’s bad bc shrink could lose like literally half its uptime at max rank

In a nerf

I think ice block being 300 outside of shrink is fine even if we do also get a timer on it eventually

[cedar compass]

I’m adding that change for the duration of the size reduction to the list

As well as fixing that -40% LIE

[near sleet]

Lol

Doesn’t titan just say like “become a giant or something” it should do that

[near sleet]

15 MIGHT be an overcorrection, but honestly I’m comfortable with that for a 4 cost, it would promote a little more deck diversity if we free up 4 points in almost everyone’s deck at high level

Also I know most of the time we speak in generalities or about 2v2 bc that’s what the tourneys are in, but I’m curious what the communities interest is for 1v1 namely if they’re was a 1v1 tournament would you play in it or watch? Just react if agree

Or do people generally not care for 1v1 at a high level

[cedar compass]

I think people just like doubles more just because there’s a bit more round chaos

[cedar compass]

What’s level 1 shrink spell

Does anyone know the duration?

[thick thicket]

An x amount of time is how long it lasts

😎

[cedar compass]

God dammit Jakob

[thick thicket]

😎 😎

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/view/good-answer-family-feud-steve-harvey-black-family-thank-you-gif-19932744

Maybe we just have it be in like with No Jump, 17-18 seconds for max level?

[pale mist]

Okay let me reframe this
Other stall pieces like parley are only 7 seconds or less

Shrink is effectively a one-sided version of that

If we say that it reduces the hits you take by that -85%

Since that's proportionate to the target size

Hell

Because it's so long

The shrink player can use parlay to eat options that could kill them with indirect damage

And it favors them because their buff is still there for eternity

Not to mention that for guns their increased damage taken is not that significant because the target is small enough that you're going to be hitting spread over them which means more likely to hit arm/leg shots anyway

Shrink should be like, slightly longer than tinman if anything

Because that's what it's most comparable to- a fully mobile tinman with explo weakness instead of fire weakness

[near sleet]

I think it’s reasonable to let it last longer than stall prices bc it is meant to be a combat ability which (makes it more powerful which is why it costs 4) theoretically with the shrink player doing reduced dmg and taking more it becomes more balanced it’s also ever so slightly harder to chase

If we cut it to say only 20sec at max we could also take another 25% off the dmg you do while small?

Eh that makes it more agregious with non boots weapons, but maybe that’s okay bc then you can interact with the opps weapon?

The reality is it’s better than a one sided parley bc you can still play cards and are in the hot seat, it’s closer to frozen gun that lasts forever

And we all know what that was like pre nerf

[near sleet]

I mean I think no jump is still too long also but idk how the community feels about that one

I know we’ve talked about the dj nj interaction being parasitic but I also think nj should go to like 13-15sec at max level

It’s so crippling and at 2 instead of 3 not to mention isla or trucks

[near sleet]

This is fair, but I actually think it deeply hurts it as a spectator sport

[cedar compass]

I think if the relationship between the cards was adjusted, No Jump wouldn't be as bad

[near sleet]

I disagree

It wouldn’t feel as bad maybe but balance wise it’s still problematic

It only directly benefits moose players by making nj basically useless against them

(Enough that I would consider making two decks for tourney to swap vs moose matchup)

And people run dj now most of the time as a counter to nj not because they want the dj, otherwise why do moose players run dj

I actually think if that change goes through and nothing else literally nothing changes

(Except for moose matchups)

Because what will happen is everyone will consider running dj as a tech card as they are now

And only use it as a responsive tool as they are now

It’s maybe just more common and still relies on rng

People with nj will either always use it immediately in case the opp hasn’t drawn the dj yet or they will wait to use it after the dj meaning it’s only used in final round and is a feels bad both ways

Besides why would we want two cards that either do nothing when they counter eachother and when they don’t counter eachother they do next to nothing (dj) or are busted (nj)

That interaction should change I am in favor of that

But I don’t think that is in any way the reason the card is problematic

[fervent kernel]

Lies! Lies!!!!

[fading tusk]

I appreciate that a lot of the weapons are niche and have unique hard counters but the katana is a little too niche

[fading tusk]

I feel actually bad when I come up against a sable because oh my goodness literally everything beats a katana

It's good against snipers and that's it

Akimbo katanas are also a strict debuff.

[quaint osprey]

Nah katana don’t need a buff at all

[quiet sapphire]

Akimbo with katan is actually very good if you pop it at face range

Kinda oneshots

[pale mist]

This is only if they don't block, or if they reload(sharpen) while you're full mag

FK, Brasshopper, and shotgun are all pretty good into it because they eat its ammo pool faster than they have to reload themselves.

Boira, gold boira, laika, and alba are all pretty bad against katana unless you're literally unreachable for the katana player

It's important to remember that katana can pretty much always choose to time its reload with yours for minimum downtime (except versus like shotty because multiple pellets count at once) so if the katana player is paying attention they'll be able to mitigate the vast majority of damage from most weapons

It's a weird case where I feel like akimbo katana is worse than single katana because block is such a huge part of what makes katana such a polarizing weapon

[quiet sapphire]

Akimbo katana is only usable close range and with speed

[quiet sapphire]

But usable, and very good dmg when close

[winter palm]

that post was a year ago my dude ☠️

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-discord-gif-dead-chat-dead-gif-22532488

[quaint osprey]

lol

[quiet sapphire]

XD

[cedar compass]

A little necromancy haha

[quiet sapphire]

Btw

Would it be crazy to suggest a balance talk text channel?

On its own

[winter palm]

it would be crazy

[quiet sapphire]

Why so?

More accessibility and highlight for people to chime in to balance talk

[winter palm]

it would be a modding nightmare no thanks

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh, no channels here are really strict by their topic anyways

[waxen pendant]

🔪

[waxen pendant]

There's no way you're suggesting that after the 10000 messages in here:>

[quiet sapphire]

This is a thread, i suggest a seperate channel

[thick thicket]

🔪 @waxen pendant

[craggy cairn]

Honestly there needs to be some deminishing returns to card stacking for debuffs imo

Maybe to buffs as well

That also indirectly nerfs card profainer

[cedar compass]

https://discord.com/channels/484663656777515040/1224479483109707816

[cedar compass]

I made a thread about it previously

[waxen pendant]

🔪

[waxen pendant]

Believe it or not that was part of the original purpose of this thread a year ago. But Jayden's thread also addresses it more specifically.

[cedar compass]

It was a good idea to try and consolidate everything into one thread, but I think if the other thread gets more visibility, they will understand the frustrations

[craggy cairn]

Tinyfy should have it's damage vulnurability increased to either 30% or 40%

It's supposed to be a wild card, it should have a bit more risk to it

Present should also have more effects but it should not be nerfed to a 2 card

no one would run it if it has more effects and is a 2 card

[winter palm]

it does

[craggy cairn]

Hm, maybe increase it to 50% then

[fervent kernel]

40 is ok

Reduce the time that's all

[craggy cairn]

How about we just delete no jump from the game?

It really should be a 10 second card

[cedar compass]

I agree with you on a personal level

But for the sake of not just straight up removing cards

I like the suggestion Nudgarrobot had with it: making Double Jump/No Jump -> +1 Jump / -1 Jump

[fervent kernel]

Triple jumps let's goooo

[craggy cairn]

I really would love triple jumps

but not sure if that's too powerful though

[cedar compass]

Should be like Kirby jumps though, where the third jump is lower in height

[fervent kernel]

We just have to see

[cedar compass]

Because Double Jump right now, is in such a weird place

To summarize @pale mist 's point: "If a No Jump counters your Double Jump, you’re extremely heavily punished for trying to play Double Jump as a buff. You can never play Double Jump without having been no jumped, and you can always use No Jump for shotgun value. "

"No other character’s antithesis card ignores their trait card when it’s played. Rubber Bullets does not reset Spike’s damage to default first before applying the damage penalty."

[fervent kernel]

How much do ppl still hate no jump?

[cedar compass]

I mean I do, but

I started playing with my jump button unbound to practice for No Jump scenarios

Can't complain about No Jump if I never had the ability to use it

[craggy cairn]

Everyone who played trucks with no jump

[fervent kernel]

Lol

[cedar compass]

Well

Honestly there's a very simple way to fix that

[craggy cairn]

it's fucked up

[fervent kernel]

I don't use double jump in my decks now days

[cedar compass]

On Trucks, with the red side spawn, it should just be a ramp

Like realistically

That would be a pretty simple fix because it would provide a way for that team to actually move

[fervent kernel]

Tru

[cedar compass]

Here if they had something where this (the green ramps) was like

Not jumpable, but "vault-able," then people would have much less of an issue with the map

[craggy cairn]

Literally the 2 fort of this game except you can't fuck around in it

[cedar compass]

Because what are your options here if you are No Jump'ed + Silence'ed/No Double Jump?

• Walk through the low-ground mid-choke where you can be stared down
• Stay there and be bombed or rushed down
• Unalive yourself by walking off into the highway divider

[cedar compass]

Bruh at least 2Fort has some symmetry

Even if it's a terrible map

[fervent kernel]

Goodie ol 2 fort

[cedar compass]

You can expect to be screwed over equally on both sides of the map

[fervent kernel]

Or make a ramp on the side

[craggy cairn]

Use Parley and take advantage of the invincibility to bounce on the road to get on or around the truck

But uh

you see the problem there

[cedar compass]

Silenced

[lusty geyser]

come to think about it
I think museum is the only true symmetric map of the game

[cedar compass]

The newest map, the pool one

[lusty geyser]

even island have tiiiiiiiiny differences

[cedar compass]

Is symmetrical

[lusty geyser]

yea pool too

[cedar compass]

Which honestly, is one of the best maps because it's symmetrical

[lusty geyser]

Subway is almost symmetrical, if the middle stairs weren't there

rooftop is definitely not symmetrical at all

[cedar compass]

Nope, but at least it's a long straightaway so you have options

[unreal ruin]

Green tarp box in the top hall makes it extra not symmetric

[cedar compass]

I'm not saying you can't have asymmetrical map design btw, but you can see the issue

Whoa

How did you get a clean overhead shot like that?

[lusty geyser]

magic

[fervent kernel]

The water tank

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/bXch2.gif

[lusty geyser]

but yeah
which, my question is

which rooftop side is better?

[cedar compass]

Left side

[lusty geyser]

I like to believe is birdcage

[fervent kernel]

Rlly? Personally the right side

[unreal ruin]

Birdcage sniper ghost bullets has a niche

[cedar compass]

Let me draw one thign

[fervent kernel]

Sure!

[lusty geyser]

I should make clean shots to all maps frfr

[cedar compass]

Okay, so the red line here is the dividing fence

[fervent kernel]

Truuuu

[cedar compass]

If you get No Jump'ed, the only way out on the top-side is to walk horizontally on the green pipes in the corner, or the 2nd/3rd stone edge

[fervent kernel]

That's why there's some cover back

[cedar compass]

Cover or not, if you can't immediately group with your teammate on the lower side, you're dead

Because what are your options? Walk towards the water tank? That entire sightline is a one-way from glass

[lusty geyser]

I also took this one, too

[cedar compass]

They can see you, but you can't see them

[fervent kernel]

Ooooooh

[lusty geyser]

I really like this map discussion thingy
especially since most maps are asymmetrical, one side has to have an upper hand

[cedar compass]

Asymmetrical map design can work, it just usually needs to have ways to properly rotate around the map

Trucks is not one of those maps

[unreal ruin]

They gotta make trucks at least like, 3x bigger

it's the only map I T-0 silence lol

[cedar compass]

T-0?

[unreal ruin]

insta play

[cedar compass]

Ahh

Yeah, and Silence needs a nerf too

[unreal ruin]

I was going for a space launch vibe lol

since the UI has a card timeline now

[cedar compass]

Should go from 4-7 seconds to
2-5 seconds

[lusty geyser]

also thx cuz I just use this theory and it works
got a haru trapped at the top right with turrets

[cedar compass]

I am a master tactician haha

I think for that map, we had a callout for that area as "Death" (since you basically were dead if you were there)

[lusty geyser]

Ok, I'll attempt to render some of the maps
can't do much in terms of resolution cuz I'm running on tape and glue here, but i'll try to make it as big as possible

Which should I do first?

[fervent kernel]

Tabletop

If you hadn't done that

[cedar compass]

I was gonna suggest Nuke Wasteland

[fervent kernel]

For all the Spawns?

[cedar compass]

I mean, there's no way to really know all the spawns from an overhead

[fervent kernel]

I mean bus, pipes, big pipe, pillar just comes naturally

Could be fun to check where the Spawns could be

[cedar compass]

Spawns, the the directions

Since I think those are present

Since the big tube spawn, you always face the wall

I just want to make a callouts guide or something

Doing this, is very annoying

[fervent kernel]

Those are some funky names

[cedar compass]

You should see our Theatre callouts

[fervent kernel]

Don't need alot of callous except for nuke rlly

Left and right does the trick

[cedar compass]

Well for Theatre, do you mean Stage or House right and left

[fervent kernel]

Lol

[cedar compass]

We named the elevators for theatre Lenny and Carl

We're a very orthodox team I swear ;;

[fervent kernel]

Hehee

That's funni

[fervent kernel]

Oooooooh

[lusty geyser]

not sure if keeping the illumination makes the topview look better

wait I think I figured out how to make it on an absurd res

[cedar compass]

This is amazingly helpful!

[fervent kernel]

Clean

[lusty geyser]

one more before i go to bed
hopefully something without a shit ton of floors

also woods textures are fucked and idk how to fix them
so maybe something else

trucks?

[fervent kernel]

Yeee!

[cedar compass]

Again, you are doing God's work

I sincerely thank you for these

I would love to know how you're managing to do this

[quiet sapphire]

Nope, the cameras arent symmetrical there

[near sleet]

Okay I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion but I’m actually in favor of trucks staying as is. Small changes with some of the bugyness sure but as a design I don’t want it changed. I would rather have it be banned in tourney than have it be changed for the game as a whole

I would rather it be treated as a “casual map” than force it to be changed for comp

Besides I think it functions like island as a counter pick for rushdown comps, which is arguably cringe and overbearing but those teams should have an option, like counter picking to stacion

For longer ranged slower comps

Or rooftops for that matter

I also think that asymmetric spawns favoring some teams is like generally fine in this game, I understand why it’s an issue abd how it affects games and some of them are really bad for sure and should be changed (theatre isn’t better now for example)

But like rooftops is fine

It’s close enough that I think it’s fine

Honestly gasolinera is probably fine too

[cedar compass]

The only change for Gas Station is taking the same red truck that is on Trucks and adding ramps to walk up it w/o the use of a jump button

Otherwise, you essentially have limited options in regards to not having the option to rotate

[near sleet]

Maybe I misunderstand?

[near sleet]

Do you mean on the trucks map?

You mean if you are on red spawn you can’t get up top when I jumped?

If you fall into/are in the whole on ice cream side you also get stuck no? That should also change?

[near sleet]

Also

Is there like a google drive or drop box link for all those top down shots from skater those were amazing

And I would be I tereste din helping you with a call outs guide

[lusty geyser]

Sadly no
I'll be working on that once I have the time to do so

[near sleet]

Hey I finally got a chance to look at the survey results?
Why is ribby so hated lol?
What do I not know?
@quiet sapphire
@cedar compass
Do either of you know?

[cedar compass]

Probably just because he "was" the worst character

I think he's fine

[near sleet]

Hmmmm I could see that for why they want him changed but why vote disliked? Ig just spillover

Personally I think that’s misguided he should be a bad gimmick character and stay that way, I hated the people who were complaining about wanting him “fixed” “buffed” in the discord on release

[fervent kernel]

I think they thought it was disliked to play

[near sleet]

Ooooh

I was thinking to go against

[fervent kernel]

Same

[near sleet]

Interesting

I will be unimaginably sad if they change him

I’ll probably have to go back to Stevie 🤮

[cedar compass]

It should be noted, that the answers for the poll were prior to the release of Dingo and company

[near sleet]

That is true

I wonder if laika would have changed the results

But I also imagine that would be recency bias

[quiet sapphire]

Nah man, 80% of Ribby haters hate him for his voice

His voicelines are nerdy and annoying

[near sleet]

lol

Unfortunately I can’t disagree

They are a bit much

But playing 1000+ games I’ve learned Stockholm syndromed into liking them

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah its not as bad as New chars

[toxic valve]

It's because his voice is fucking stupid

[vocal hawk]

What survey?

[quiet sapphire]

Dingo -grunting
Siaro -mega cringe lines
Sheep - sound feels off and overly positive lines
Laika -condecending mommy issues lines? "You are worse than my mother" what?...

[toxic valve]

I also don't like the sssssssssssssssssssssssssssiaro voice lines tbf lol

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah they are worse than Ribby

[toxic valve]

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssssso agree!

[vocal hawk]

I'm not a fan of most of the DLC characters voices/lines

[quiet sapphire]

Yep me too

[vocal hawk]

they range from awful to meh

best we get is relatively inoffensive

[toxic valve]

just like my twos opponents ;)

[vocal hawk]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[lusty geyser]

Trucks render finished :]

[cedar compass]

Holy shit, the side view helps so much

[cedar compass]

Thank you for this!

[quiet sapphire]

If you learn it its possible to walk there without jump

Iv used it to suprize many nojumpers

Its wouls be cool if Trucks had more cards that moved dunamically like that one car

[craggy cairn]

Don't you need to take damage in order to get there though?

[cedar compass]

Hmm.. could test it

Might be possible to step up on the edge

[quiet sapphire]

Possible without dmg

[near sleet]

They don’t bother me generally in what they are, they are arguably overcommitted to “playing the character” they are, but like that’s fine. My issue is unless I’m mistaken they just have far fewer voice lines than other chars so I here the same ones over and over

[near sleet]

It moves in and out which is what jani means by dynamic

There is a moving car on ice cream side but that one is a bitch designed only to fuck you when you are just trying to rotate bottom path

[quiet sapphire]

I think he meant the truck walk

[near sleet]

oh lol probably

[quiet sapphire]

Tho its possible to junp on the car wihout dmg too

If you time the jump right when car is close

[near sleet]

okay i take it all back

vamp & poison are fine in the perks pool

but move speed has got to go

omg that is cringe on myk

i would actively prefer they get vamp

[pale mist]

What, you don't like Myk getting to have both laser acc on you as well as zip zoop movement?

lol

[near sleet]

AHAHAHAH

its so much funnier than you think

because after going 2-4 (me losing) to a myk bc of laser aim and move speed

they ranked up

we fought again

[pale mist]

And they got dumpstered?

[near sleet]

and i DUMPSTERED them 3/0 two rounds in a arow

[pale mist]

Yep

[near sleet]

it was bad

[pale mist]

Perks are way too good

is the thing

[near sleet]

i love having my opinions comfirmed like that

[pale mist]

I had the same kind of thing happening the other evening

The thing is if the person getting the perks have even mid aim

The amount of leeway it gives is ridiculous

[near sleet]

fr

[pale mist]

On some characters I should say

Moose getting acc+ doesn't really do much

Same with Moose getting Silent Steps

lol

But then for some of them we give acc+ movement to brasshopper character which has two weaknesses: bad falloff and low acc

stonks

Also give Big Mag (card) a minimum of +1 ammo so it actually works on Laika. Please? Pretty please?

[near sleet]

ofc ofc

that would be a good perk on her actually if it worked

[cedar compass]

You make that work by changing how big mag and small mag work

You have to round to the nearest bullet

[near sleet]

yup

[quiet sapphire]

how do you guys feel about nerfing barbed

its 60dmg from playing 5 cards

thats a death sentence

it could be max 10dmg per card imo

a tame nerf

[winter palm]

why are you playing 5 cards after barb?

[quiet sapphire]

because is have save up like 7 of them with my optimal play

till gamepoint rounds

thats the point of the game

to win with less cards used

and use card advantage at later rounds to ensure a win

[winter palm]

if your saving that many cards your doing something wrong

[quiet sapphire]

nope

thats the optimal play

as i just said

[winter palm]

its inefficient

[quiet sapphire]

its the opposite

litterally the point of cardgames with bo5 round that allow to save cards

[winter palm]

it isnt. the only case you would do that is if your ahead

[quiet sapphire]

is to win with less cards used and use card advantage at gamepoint rounds

[winter palm]

and if your ahead who cares if you take what? 60? you can still save for next round regurdless if they barb aswell....

[quiet sapphire]

in gamepoint rounds...

like 2-2

if i have +5 cards than you

i should probably win

[winter palm]

youre really stretching here.

[quiet sapphire]

i think its obvious

round saving cardgame logic

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kill-you-gif-5063683583336604795

[quiet sapphire]

nice point

[winter palm]

ty

[strange flume]

I agree here. The best move in this game is to save as much cards as possible and be much more safe in latter rounds.

[quiet sapphire]

truly informative

[quiet sapphire]

exactly

thats the point of the game

thats why everyone hates barbed and silence

[winter palm]

thats a risk you take

[quiet sapphire]

they are designed agaisnt the point of the game

[strange flume]

I mean, barbed is fine, but lower damage would be nice and silence is just ass.

[quiet sapphire]

its the safer way

since card advantage is supposed to be a huge thing

[strange flume]

I think barbed should do less damage the more cards you have.

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[strange flume]

This makes saving cards worth it while also barbed still being viable in most rounds.

[winter palm]

this isnt it, you dont "save cards" if theyre staying in your hand and your not going even on cards every round your risking losing that round, the point is yes be effecict but at the same time you want to WIN the round if your behind and have cards in hand your playing wrong and thats a fact. If your ahead and get barbed it wont matter.

those are the facts and hope that much is OBVIOUS

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797703061401370664/850467696641441842/image0-53.gif

[quiet sapphire]

of course you wana WIN the round but, without cards cus they are better to be saved

[winter palm]

ok now reread what i said

[strange flume]

Okay if you have something like thick skin or caturret and both of you are on 20 hp. YOU ARE NOT gonna play those cards, but save them for next round. Something like medkit is good here, but most cards that don't give instant or temporary buffs are not.

[quiet sapphire]

It's kind of incoherent, it's pretty hard

[winter palm]

?

[quiet sapphire]

if you are ahead and get barbed it wont matter?

were not talking about being behind

[winter palm]

if youre ahead it doesnt matter tf you mean

[quiet sapphire]

if im 2-1 with 4 cards, its WAY better for me to play saving the cards while my opponent uses some shit like shotty akimbo, then on 2-2 i will ahve huge card advantage

[strange flume]

Exactly this.

[quiet sapphire]

barbed denies card advantage and limits you to play only 3-4 cards

[winter palm]

not at all, you lost those round BC you saved cards.

[quiet sapphire]

that fuckes up my card advantage

[strange flume]

OK, tell me what you play to win this scenario?

[winter palm]

this is just skill issue at this point

sorry

[quiet sapphire]

💀

[thick thicket]

Raw skill and aim. 😎

[strange flume]

That's where I can agree.

[plush dragon]

i agree with nerfing barb but not like that

[quiet sapphire]

use skill against barbed

[plush dragon]

nerf it in 3v3s

[quiet sapphire]

💀

[plush dragon]

and 2v2s

make it affect one player

barb in 3v3s is fucking annoying

[winter palm]

wasting a cards potential is a skill issue yea...

[strange flume]

And they 1 shot you after you deal 60 dmg, nice.

[quiet sapphire]

barbed is uncounterable

[thick thicket]

Wouldn't happen if you played Stevie.

😎

[quiet sapphire]

the problem is in 2-2 i have 10 card and you 5

you play barbed

and limit my cardsusage to 4

that sucks

i should have advantage cus i ahve +5 cards

[winter palm]

fr why we acting like taking 60 dmg after using 5 cards is an issue.

[quiet sapphire]

its deathwish

[strange flume]

Because those are 5 shots fired from boira

[quiet sapphire]

thats like 2 less heaths

for 2 cost

[winter palm]

AFETER USING 5 CARDS???? 💀

[strange flume]

After that if you trade shots you lose.

[plush dragon]

give barbed like a 20s duration instead of permanent

[quiet sapphire]

yeah, why should my card advantage be limited

[plush dragon]

thats all im saying

[quiet sapphire]

sure, tho rushing will still killl you

[plush dragon]

maybe 30s

[plush dragon]

then dont rush?

[quiet sapphire]

rushed at you

[plush dragon]

fvf has plenty of stalling cards.

[quiet sapphire]

the games whole point is about using cards

[strange flume]

I mean, I think this sounds fair. Not too many players rush the last round unless they have something insane or silence.

[winter palm]

yeaa?

jani im sorry but this is your worst take yet.

[plush dragon]

if you tank 1 barbed it wont be the end of the world

[quiet sapphire]

so barbed destroyes somebody who played better than you by limiting their ability to play more cards than you

[quiet sapphire]

usually i have like 7 cards at gamepoint rounds

because i played better

and saved cards

[winter palm]

this, even if you use 3 cards thats just a hp down that you can heal back from.

[quiet sapphire]

won rounds with less card usage

[plush dragon]

thats a you problem

[strange flume]

Yeah, like 1 to 3 card damage is fine 5+ is veery limiting.

[quiet sapphire]

it should be a problem

[plush dragon]

no it isnt???

[quiet sapphire]

its the point of the gameplan

to win with less cards used

[plush dragon]

you hoarding cards and getting countered is a you problem

[thick thicket]

Then switch plans? 🤔

[plush dragon]

that is literally a skill issue

[strange flume]

But you can use the heal in the combat instead of wasting it into very strong last turn card.

[quiet sapphire]

and secure the win later with deserved cardadvantage

[winter palm]

molebot

[plush dragon]

i hate it but yeah, if your strat doesnt work change the strat lmao

[quiet sapphire]

it litterally punishes me for playing better

its skill punishing card

[thick thicket]

Exactly.

[strange flume]

They rush you at that point almost granted.

[plush dragon]

spamming cards last moment isnt skill

you managed to go low card on one or two rounds

you can do it again

[winter palm]

this is what I keep saying, but we're talking to jani here..

[quiet sapphire]

if i achievent to get more cards than you at the last round i should be rewarded for my skill and use tham

[strange flume]

Saving them for more counterplay/options to do in last round is.

[quiet sapphire]

having more cards to use is a skill

[quiet sapphire]

thank you

[plush dragon]

using your cards smartly is also a skill actually

[quiet sapphire]

someone here has played card games before

[strange flume]

Exactly

[quiet sapphire]

yes exactly

[plush dragon]

if you have a problem with not being able to use all your deck in one round maybe dont do it like that?

[quiet sapphire]

i used my card smartly to win previous rounds i used less cards to win

[winter palm]

ok but they're meant to counter things still, that doesnt change here?

[quiet sapphire]

you dont get it

[strange flume]

Using them earlier to make small to no difference or gambling there is just bad idea.

[plush dragon]

most combos end with like 2 or 3 cards

you dont need 7 to win

[winter palm]

you mean to tell me your going to use 3-5 countercards in the same round?

that argument just donest work

[quiet sapphire]

if i achieve to save up more cards than you to secure last round i shoulbe be allowed to use them

[strange flume]

The thing is it shouldn't be 1 card. If it was like invisible hand and garbage day then it is well played, but 1 barbed card just is stupidly strong in last round.

[plush dragon]

the fact you have more options already is a reward in itself

[quiet sapphire]

barbed liomits my whole hand

im allowed to use like 3 cards or i will die probably

[plush dragon]

it doesnt limit which cards you use though

only how many

[quiet sapphire]

eveen if i saved up 7

[quiet sapphire]

that's inconsequential

[plush dragon]

you have 7 cards thats enough to set up one good combo + a counter

you arent bound by chance nearly as much

[quiet sapphire]

thats a big problem

[winter palm]

well there are many combos that pretty much garentee a win, this isnt new. and this takes multiple card slots that are expensive aswell.

[strange flume]

Exactly barbed cards isn't combo.

[quiet sapphire]

those, "free win" combos should be nerfed too

[strange flume]

It is a card. That's why profainer is damn nuts.

[quiet sapphire]

true

[plush dragon]

no i agree barbed cards should be nerfed but giving it a timer should be enough

[quiet sapphire]

the point ov card advantage is being able to use more cards

[strange flume]

I can agree on that.

You can play cards that delay your other cards.

[quiet sapphire]

on maps like museum and island it wouldnt change anything

[winter palm]

I think its fine how it is, I dont think its op and it does what its meant to do.

[plush dragon]

its op in 3s id say, maybe 2s too

in a 1v1 its

okay

[quiet sapphire]

its meant to deny card advantage which is the point of the game?

oof

[strange flume]

By giving you some extra time by playing nukes, tin man and other slowing cards.

[quiet sapphire]

its just badly designed

[plush dragon]

^

[winter palm]

thats not new to card games my dude.

[plush dragon]

if you take like 8 damage from barbed cards you aint gonna die

[strange flume]

Dude is a floodgate player :D

[winter palm]

mtg actually.

[strange flume]

XD

[cedar compass]

The current damage is -12hp btw, and let’s just remind folks that it apparently used to be -25hp

[quiet sapphire]

cards like this in otehr card games are mega toxic too

[winter palm]

its not unique to those games ether

[quiet sapphire]

and hated by the community

[quiet sapphire]

its not as much limiting as barbed is in FvF

[winter palm]

cards like that answer things like control, they are not hated at all..

[strange flume]

Foodgate isn't a game, it is card style that locks your enemy out of playing their cards.

[quiet sapphire]

you are litterally allowed to use 3-or 4 card and more is a deathwish

[winter palm]

never played it.

[quiet sapphire]

even tho i have like 10 cards

[quiet sapphire]

unit control is different

what were talking about with barbed is hand manipulation

barbed is not "control" XD

[strange flume]

Yeah, it was good thing it got nerfed back then.

[winter palm]

its not even direct, it doesnt make you discard and it doesnt really prevent you from doing stuff, its actually very healthy for a "hand manipulation" card, as opposed to things like silance.

[quiet sapphire]

hand manipulation is extremely toxic and hated in card games

[winter palm]

you dont say.

[pale mist]

it is quite literally THE definition of efficient to be in a card advantaged state in the late game

[cedar compass]

I think the problem with Barbed is that it’s often played with other hand manipulation like Garbage Day and Invisible Hand

[quiet sapphire]

it litterally limits you to use only 3-4 cards

more card using results in pretty much guaranteed loss

[strange flume]

They are combos, they are meant to work like that. Same with akimbo shotgun

[thick thicket]

Just sticky and bigger explosion. Big win only costs 2 cards.

Only 24 health taken.

😎

[winter palm]

not using cards = them not having value

if you dont play them they dont do anything 🤯

[strange flume]

If you rush them, you are in disadvantage later on.

[pale mist]

Winning rounds by spending fewer resources is literally definitionally efficient

[winter palm]

didnt read what i said then, I was saying if youre losing rounds

[quiet sapphire]

using them later IS

[quiet sapphire]

losing couple rounds is fine in FvF

[winter palm]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797703061401370664/850467696641441842/image0-53.gif

[quiet sapphire]

i go on save rounds all the time

[pale mist]

Saving cards on unsalvageable rounds is also a discipline/efficiency play

[quiet sapphire]

**to get card advantage and later win the whole game **

[strange flume]

TBH you should really try YGO instead of MTG it really teaches a lot about card games.

[pale mist]

I agree with the concept that barbed cards punishes disciplined play

In a way that does not feel good

[strange flume]

In that game you cannot just throw random bullshit and win

[winter palm]

fk no, that game got power crept to hell.

[quiet sapphire]

GWENT has same costed deckbuilding and BO2 with card saving too

[strange flume]

Though this applies only to older decks, something like 2014

[quiet sapphire]

yeah, it mega toxic by punishing skill used in the whole game

[strange flume]

Nowadays you can just throw everything in and win.

[cedar compass]

But the combo for Invis + Barbed is basically telling your opponent:
“Hey, I don’t want to have a fair fight anymore. I don’t want you to know how to do reactively counterplay with your cards or sync up card combos without losing health for it first”

[craggy cairn]

The real ire of hated is invisible cards

[quiet sapphire]

at least you dont get punished by playing the cards

but yeah

sucks too

[craggy cairn]

yes but you get punished for having alot of cards for the whole round

[quiet sapphire]

true

ass card design

[strange flume]

I get what you are going for and in your example the barbed cards is the issue invis hand alone doesn't do that much. Unless you played cards that drew something.

[craggy cairn]

Especially when they get barbed cards for 3 rounds in a row somehow

[strange flume]

But almost same thing can be said about any other good combo, like brain shot and bullet time: Hey I don't want you to win so I just 1 shot you.

[quiet sapphire]

it does a lot cus you card find the counter cards you have save againt a combo about to be used againt you

[winter palm]

again why are we crying about having 10 cards in hand when youre ahead.

[quiet sapphire]

many times ill have disarm saved up wit h7 other cards and then i get invis handed with alba and i cant find it untill i get shot down

[quiet sapphire]

because... barbed cards negates that to like 3-4 cards

[pale mist]

Hmm

[craggy cairn]

Invisible hand being indefinite sucks ass

[quiet sapphire]

to be actually used

[pale mist]

So, I don't necessarily think that barbed's end effect is the most impactful part of it

[strange flume]

Yeah, but if they play more than that that means they prob go over 7+ cost and play more than 3 cards, so I don't see it as much of an issue since technically silence can do the exact same thing but for waaay lower cost.

[craggy cairn]

Why did they make that card that way

[pale mist]

I think it's the disincentive psychologically

Like there are a number of things that mitigate barbed cards but especially something like molebot

[strange flume]

So I consider that just a good play.

[quiet sapphire]

true its just another toxic hand manipulation in the game that punishes skill expression like silence

[pale mist]

But that doesn't diminish how frustrating it is to be punished in general for playing for resources

[craggy cairn]

Barbed card/invisible hand moreso serves to being toxic than being a really powerful combo imo

[quiet sapphire]

yep

[quiet sapphire]

oh it is game winnig combo

especially at last round

[pale mist]

Barbed invis is crippling I'll agree on last round

[quiet sapphire]

might as wenn not play the "card" game at hand

[craggy cairn]

Ok I can see that in last round

[pale mist]

404 helps but still guarantees 24 damage

(you will be playing a card after 404 so)

[strange flume]

I think invishand isn't that bad and it incentivises more aggressive play while your opponent, may or may not be able to counter it since they are sometimes throwing dice about what they have in hand.

[cedar compass]

Let’s remind everyone here that Invisible Health has a 60s timer while Invisible Hand is permanent

[pale mist]

Even though 24 damage sounds like not much, it changes a lot of break points

[quiet sapphire]

sad

[pale mist]

way easier to do 126 in way faster than 150 due to how breakpoints are set

[strange flume]

But barbed cards just straight up punish you for playing cards.

[quiet sapphire]

= having a card advantage

[winter palm]

I'll just end my thoughts on this, if youre losing and you have 7+ cards in hand, you saving that many cards I can tell you is the reason why youre behind and at that point is an issue of skill, youre not skillful saving your cards if your losing rounds your saving them to your own detriment.

[strange flume]

Whatever

[winter palm]

thats imo you can take it or leave it

[cedar compass]

Invisible Hand = Hand Advantage punish
Barbed Cards = Punishment for existing

[pale mist]

Who said you're losing?

[quiet sapphire]

you usually save cards when you are winning

[pale mist]

If you are at round 5 and have hand advantage

You're winning

:V

[strange flume]

This I can agree on.

[winter palm]

ok if youre winning whats the issue?

[quiet sapphire]

about to win

[strange flume]

We were talking always about 2-2 situation

[quiet sapphire]

winning in the sense that we have advantage

...

[craggy cairn]

Invisible hand + Barbed Cards + Garbage day is just disrespectful

[pale mist]

The idea that you turn off hand advantage is ridiculous

[quiet sapphire]

and powerful

[winter palm]

same case as if you were losing

[strange flume]

Yeah it is big middle finger.

[thick thicket]

Just outclass em with raw aim. 😎

[pale mist]

Even game is same as losing??

[thick thicket]

Maybe a sticky bomb. 😎

[pale mist]

Okay

[quiet sapphire]

what?

[winter palm]

yk those rounds you lost

????

[quiet sapphire]

yeah i porbably lost them to get card advantage

[winter palm]

wdym what?

[pale mist]

Sooooooooooo you're saying just never drop a round and always play out cards

That's your point

[quiet sapphire]

hahahah

[pale mist]

That sounds... AWFULLY unga bunga

[winter palm]

you'd want to be in a 2-2 senario???

huh?

[strange flume]

That's always a good option 😎

[quiet sapphire]

sure if you have like +5 cards

[pale mist]

"I'm talking about hte 2 rounds you lost"

[craggy cairn]

Does invisible hand still work with hot potato?

[pale mist]

Are you even attempting to argue your own point

Or are you just being contrary

[winter palm]

im just being ignored so im done talking

[strange flume]

Iirc it does, but it is really easy to spot where it goes to.

[quiet sapphire]

being +5 card advantage at last round is amazing

ez win

if not for barbed 🤮

[strange flume]

Or silenced

[quiet sapphire]

tru

[pale mist]

If someone plays akimbo alba titan tinman in one round
You should not play cards into it

You should let them burn their hand

[quiet sapphire]

☝️

[craggy cairn]

Hot potato is so stupid

[winter palm]

you had a 2 point lead and your throwing rounds, that is not an easy win wtf.

[pale mist]

Your play at that point should have the goal of making them burn more cards

[strange flume]

Exactly, if you have nothing to counter the situation, don't struggle!

[pale mist]

Throwing is punting cards into their biggest throw rounds

[quiet sapphire]

ez win with 5 more cards to use!

[quiet sapphire]

sure 2 point lead but probably card disadvantage after wining 2 rounds

[strange flume]

Wrong response

[strange flume]

.

[winter palm]

nah bruh that's soo cursed to try to win like that 💀

thats your own fault at that point

[quiet sapphire]

iif im at 2-0 with 3 cards againt enemys 6 im not gonna use any 💀

[pale mist]

So you're telling me you play out your best stuff into rounds where opponent plays their entire hand?

[quiet sapphire]

im gonna save cards and let opponent burn their combos

[pale mist]

Like, that just scews you on resources

[winter palm]

youre trolling

[quiet sapphire]

???

[strange flume]

YOU are trolling here

[pale mist]

Yes, it hurts the opponent a lot if you pull the win on them when they throw their entire powerhouse on the round

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/perfect-popcorn-michael-jackson-gif-26271837

[strange flume]

Literally 3 people are currently arguing against you

[quiet sapphire]

do you know something called card economy?

[winter palm]

you think they're going to use all 6?

[strange flume]

I enjoy this quite a lot actually :D

[winter palm]

do you know the opponent uses the same concept?

[quiet sapphire]

probably 3 at least, while i use 0

[quiet sapphire]

3 at least cus they have to win

[thick thicket]

We all play differently at the end of the day, but I love watching this shit go down.

[quiet sapphire]

how is that relevant

[winter palm]

right so force them to use those cards dont just give them a win and let them save the cards

[strange flume]

Me 2, but I want to throw gas in the fire while being in right side.

[winter palm]

your going to run into the same issue next round

[quiet sapphire]

them'???

im the one saving

[quiet sapphire]

huh

[winter palm]

if you save THEY SAVE

[quiet sapphire]

ill have more cards than the enemy next round

[winter palm]

wtf

[strange flume]

If they don't play anything you should neither unless you are losing the situation.

[winter palm]

is it that hard to understand?

[quiet sapphire]

have you ever saved at 0-2 XD

good luck saving at 0-2 round

[quiet sapphire]

i wonder the same

[quiet sapphire]

they cant save

[winter palm]

yea and good luck saving 2-2 and letting them keep their 6+ cards

[quiet sapphire]

they have to use card sto ensure the win

at 0-2

[quiet sapphire]

whaat

[winter palm]

nah you saved so they do the same. using probably 1 card

[strange flume]

Like lets get this as simple as possible. Play cards only if it is neccessary. Otherwise save them. THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO PLAY THIS GAME.

If you waste them you are playing poorly.

[quiet sapphire]

if they for some god forsake reason decide to try saving at 0-2 and not pop a good combo at the start... which is insane, sure illl probably use a card to win right then and there

[winter palm]

ok? yea thats a conecpt everyone has, your opponents too.

[thick thicket]

Casual game.

People forget.

😎

[strange flume]

Yeah, so when you play better and therefore have card advantage towards last round, they play barbed cards and your saved cards cost 12 life each.

[quiet sapphire]

when your opponent has 0 wins against 2 the yusually have to play something good like 3 cards before the fight to ensure the win

[strange flume]

And you have much less availability to respond.

[quiet sapphire]

not the topic here, please

[winter palm]

so you win regardless. youre saying you lose to barb.
you should have a lead.

[quiet sapphire]

it shouldnmt be that way

[winter palm]

anyway we're going in circles

[strange flume]

OK, this is where I disagree in a way.

[quiet sapphire]

having a card in game that effectively limits card usage to 3-4 and denies card advantage is bad desing

[quiet sapphire]

sorry i meant shoudnt

[winter palm]

classic jani repeating a line he said 10 mins ago

we alrdy been over

and I alrdy said why its wrong

[quiet sapphire]

cus im responding to this with it again

[strange flume]

I think you have point here, but you should be able to effectively play more cards than your opponent without being restricted or at least give some counter play after the barbed cards have resolved.

[strange flume]

That's why I like the timer idea.

[winter palm]

it doesnt deny it is the thing, you can still use them and it would still be efficent over 12 hp

[pale mist]

The point is that you being able to save cards is the product of you playing better

Invis/Barbed nulling or directly punishing that is not healthy

[quiet sapphire]

giving about 40-60 value to a one 2 cost card??

[winter palm]

your saying that as if you need all of the cards in your hand to win the round

when in reality you dont

[quiet sapphire]

its preferable yes for me to use what i have skillfully saved

[quiet sapphire]

using more cards= more chanses to win

[winter palm]

and you have a strong weapon and say a weapon swap, using those 2 to win would be enough, you dont need all 6, this is just an example, this game has so many high value cards its just unrealistic to say you need all 6+ cards.

and this is not to say you STILL CAN USE THE OTHER CARDS

anyways this is endless. im done, you can say w/e now.

say im wrong if you want.

[quiet sapphire]

Giving over 40dmg value to one 2 cost card is never good

Thats deathwish

[strange flume]

The idea here is that you want to have them available in the round without every card played being punished for. For example in last round you play: akimbo, FK, thick skin and shrink, you lose 48 health, you still have disarm and your lucky opponent plays switch weapons, obviously you have to play the disarm, but that sets you down 60 health in total for shrink + thick skin.

[strange flume]

And barbed cards is the 1 that really hurts here, not the disarm or switch weapons

[quiet sapphire]

"Game has very op combos so a card that effectively limits you to use only 3 cards in one round and majorly punishes you of having skillfully earned card advantage is fine"

[strange flume]

I hope this example gets my perspective through here.

[winter palm]

Jani I dont appriciate you trying to put words in my mouth.

can you not?

[quiet sapphire]

Face it Ruki if you use a barbed and enemy uses 5 cards, thats 60dmg for one barbed. Thats too much value for 2 cost card

[cedar compass]

Just to add another point here, we’ve been talking about Barbed Cards being used on a person with hand advantage/in the lead, but also consider the flip side, it being played against you when you’re down points

Like you already have a mountain to climb being down points, but now you have to take health damage to use the very few cards you may have

[quiet sapphire]

It was my general interpertation of your point?

Im trying to see what you mean

[winter palm]

that 👏 you 👏 self 👏 inflicted👏

💀

https://tenor.com/view/bye-cat-bye-cat-cat-meme-gif-27333069

[strange flume]

3rd time saying goodbye :D

[quiet sapphire]

Thats an example of how effective barbed is againt person with card advantage

[pale mist]

So the thing is

12hp is less value than the card being played
However, in terms of diminishing value for card advantaged play, it puts a steep price on actually playing out

[quiet sapphire]

All im trying to is understand your points you make, by repeating my understandment of your sentences. There can be mistakes and i ask you to point them out if there are any

[cedar compass]

Basically, and even if you have some health items to offset the damage, those are things you could have used for later

[quiet sapphire]

If you dont appreciate me trying to undertand you, thats a shame, but i can do less of it i guess

[pale mist]

The point being that the interaction is unhealthy. Its counterplay is nonexistent for the value it gens, and the value it gens is purely derived from punishing correct play or further wrecking a disadvantaged player

Neither side of the equation is enjoyable in the round 5

[cedar compass]

^

Couldn’t have worded it better myself

[pale mist]

Either you get someone not playing cards which are objectively more valuable that 12HP because they don't have the HP to budget

[quiet sapphire]

Its funny that only way to counter barbed is to ooga booga burn your hand every round xD

[pale mist]

Or you get a bunch of free damage and positional info

[strange flume]

Yeah that pretty much wraps it up from my perspective aswell.

[strange flume]

Or you can just not play them :D

[quiet sapphire]

I mean yeah, but thats insane value for a 2 cost card, thats like counter card x3

Againt a person with more cards

[pale mist]

Not playing them effectively makes Barbed a "discard enemy hand" card which would be unquestionably broken beyond words

[quiet sapphire]

Yep

[pale mist]

It's a catch 22 of a card, and Jani is right that the only """"""Counter""""""" is unga bunga your cards

On the hail mary that you just win before ever getting to r5

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah and that sucks away stategy from the game

[strange flume]

I mean it would be cool if it forced enemy to reroll, that would make fun way to try and counter effective playing.

[pale mist]

A forced reroll would be interesting if it didn't mill their existing hand to discard pile

[quiet sapphire]

Rerolling wouls be as or even worse

[pale mist]

AKA everything goes back to draw pile and then rerolls

[quiet sapphire]

Ah non banishing reroll?

[pale mist]

Mm

[strange flume]

Yeah, that could be better.

[quiet sapphire]

Maybe thats fine

[strange flume]

Discarding would be insane

[pale mist]

Banishing reroll makes sense for player reroll, but not for forced reroll

I do like the idea of that as an effect though

It's another one of those disruptive but power neutral ones

Where it's about timing your use based on your read of the game state

I think it neat

[strange flume]

Doesn't the deck shuffle after all cards are played and you need to draw? I was expecting that since some other board games do that.

[pale mist]

No, the deck mills completely

You just run out of draws

[strange flume]

Dam.

[quiet sapphire]

"Reroll" catd actually banishes

And draws same amount +2

[pale mist]

^^ which is why profaning reroll is an excellent way to deck yourself

[strange flume]

So you can't profain them?

[pale mist]

You can it's just not a great idea

[strange flume]

Okay so it just discards.

[quiet sapphire]

It should stay that way, a good limit to basicallu already op card

[pale mist]

Oh agreed

That's the opportunity cost of reroll

[strange flume]

Banish in my perspective means that I can't access it anyway after the card goes there.

[quiet sapphire]

Reroll is just extra on steroids

[cedar compass]

The way to described it Nudge, I’m gonna use for the balance doc

Almost verbatim xD

[quiet sapphire]

Does same thing extra does but also can reroll existig cards

[pale mist]

tbf rerolling hand cards is a semineutral action when you don't have meaningful ways to interact with the discarded cards ever again

Obviously it's net positive because we're selecting the timing that's positive rather than completely randomly rerolling

But ya

anyway can we just have better netcode

FvF has unironically gotten me back into going into quake after playing it for sessions because I need a palette cleanser from the yucky feeling netcode

[strange flume]

But you can profain it, interesting. But anyway I think barbed cards should be replaced with a card that re-shuffles enemys hand to make counterplay against saving cards fair, but also not just lock them out of playing. Anyway that wraps up my time here for today. GN everyone.

[pale mist]

Replace barbed cards with a flip cards effect that makes you have to press the card play button to flip the card before you can read/play it

lmao

"oh shit i have to flip over my hand"

Which is just a healthier version of invis cards I know

But like shrug

Something else can be done to invis cards I'm sure

[cedar compass]

2 second timer

I meant to type 12, but I’d be fine with 2 seconds pfff

[pale mist]

I was gonna say

lmao oh my god

what if invis cards was just card gaslighting

And shifted the visual of all your cards one to the right

[cedar compass]

“Hold on, I can’t see my cards because I’m in the middle of a very important blink”

[strange flume]

Or actually don't replace it just make it so that it affects only 3 cards for 15 damage, so it is just metigatable health down.

[pale mist]

You can still read your hand, you just have to play for the card to the side of the one you're hovering

since the one you hover lies to you

lmao

[cedar compass]

Pffff that would be an interesting wild card

[cedar compass]

Making it not infinite would be the best

And if it’s stacked.. well it’d still do 24hp, but again, not infinite

[pale mist]

hmm

I'm not sure how much I agree necessarily

I think that invis runs into a similar issue as silence

even on a timer

Yes it's absolutely less oppressive

But also I think that it's still very strong even to short timeframes

Or rather I'm not sure how much changing the timer moves the power level of the card

[cedar compass]

Invisible everything but the card you’re looking at?

Idk, you’re absolutely right about the timing

Considering rounds can end with 7 seconds of a on round start silence proc

[quiet sapphire]

this is the most healthiest approach

[cedar compass]

What about Invisible Hand?

[quiet sapphire]

hmmm

not as priority as barbed

but could be timed

cus invis health is timed

thos it would help only a little

[quiet sapphire]

maybe it could reposition half of your hand and cover them

reposiotion is a buff but only ever effecting half of your hand would be decent nerf

[quiet sapphire]

with steep price you mean too steep right?

for its effort to use and cost

[pale mist]

I think it's variable is the thing. The cost is dependent on a number of things, like whether you have access to defensive tools or regeneration

Or what max HP things opponent has or what breakpoints they're playing for

[quiet sapphire]

huh cost of barbed is 2, its not variable

[pale mist]

But realistically the HP thresholds in FvF are already fairly tight

[quiet sapphire]

also has 0 attention cost, you alwasy play barbed at the start of the round as soon as you can

[pale mist]

Yeah, cost of barbed is 2. Cost of health down, poison? Sticky bomb? It's the guarantee and the disincentive that's most valuable, and the catch 22 of getting value regardless of the affected players' choice

Yep

Agree with attention cost

But large part of the point being that even 2 cards under barrbed, which can be forced with present, puts you under threshold for a number of things like landmines, SDD, etc

For instance, Health Down + Barbed is a one shot alba headshot if they play a single card

[quiet sapphire]

value is value, its doesnt account if enemy has healing or not

[pale mist]

Hmmm as much as I agree with the general sentiment, I don't agree here, and especially because the value of barbed cards rises as the match pressure rises

For the same reason as prior stated with card efficiency; efficient play is playing only cards as they're necessary

as you're put under pressure, your HP is lower and the opportunity cost of playing cards is a more significant amount of your remaining pool, as well as another load on your card choices

[quiet sapphire]

im just telling you shouldnt take into account IF enemy has healing or not to calculate barbed cards value

[quiet sapphire]

i agree with all this

[quiet sapphire]

i just didn't get these last points

barbed cost depended on if enemy has regeneration?

[quiet sapphire]

yeah, it does rise, its value rises /too/ much for a 2 cost card if i wanna play out my card advantage that i skillfully earned

[pale mist]

Yes, in conjunction with the other things

In the last round scenario, you lose the disincentive to play cards with regen assuming you can just avoid being rushdowned

[quiet sapphire]

for me to play out the card advantage taht i earned will be any more cards after 3 that everyone draws every round.
3 * 12 = 36
for every card that i have skillfully and smartly saved for this round ill have to pay 36+x*12

[pale mist]

Which means that if you molebot into barbed cards and then play your buffs out, you lose the opportunity cost and the snowballing value that barbed normally provides

[quiet sapphire]

ehh its only 4hp per tic

[pale mist]

4hp per tic unlimited is plenty to completely mitigate barbed

[quiet sapphire]

molebot as barbed counter is lackluster point

[pale mist]

I don't agree. Barbed cards is in effect, a pressure multiplier

[quiet sapphire]

you will be rushed down before you get even 20hp out of it

[pale mist]

Do you stand afk with no threat in your moles?

[quiet sapphire]

that doesnt matter

[quiet sapphire]

your enemy will be on molebot healing range before you wil get even 20hp out of it

[quiet sapphire]

being a threat while doing it is cool but thats outside this discussion

[pale mist]

Here I disagree; Mole forces opponent to advance, which is positional advantage. It gives you opportunity to punish, while mitigating downsides for playing cards through barbed

[quiet sapphire]

this is the main point

its exremely steep value against someone who wants to play more cards than you

3 * 12

[pale mist]

I understand your point and generally agree. I just think that the scenario is one that matters, because from a pure numbers position it sounds negligible-- And the reason for that is because those numbers matter only under pressure

Ergo, antipressure tools that force enemy on the move (mole) are the counterplay, even if that's less intuitive

[quiet sapphire]

48 dmg on you to play more cards than your opponent is negligiable amount?

that's almost 2 no healths

[pale mist]

Less health is -38

[quiet sapphire]

yeah but barbed basically is better for the same cost and has no limit

[pale mist]

Generally agreed again, but not in the context of antipressure, since moving your max HP guarantees that the pressure sticks

Playing less HP and seeing mole doens't impact your play at all; you don't have to rotate onto it

[quiet sapphire]

so you are saying to play camping molebot if enemy plays barbed?

[pale mist]

Playing barbed cards and seeing mole immediately forces you to try to take out the mole

[quiet sapphire]

still unhealthy even by your counter

[pale mist]

I'm saying to use mole to take initiative

[quiet sapphire]

if you avoid pressure while healing off barbed dmg from playing buffs and debuffs

thats camping

[pale mist]

Are we not talking about optimal play

[quiet sapphire]

i mean your opponent will ahve to push you but you are still camping till he is close

sure it might work to heal off like 20hp while you camp but it's an unhealthy counter to the argument against "barbed has no counters"

[quiet sapphire]

or what do you mean?

[quiet sapphire]

thats crazy btw

but 48 just to be ablse to play measly 4 cards

[cedar compass]

Molebot is 5 per tick btw

[quiet sapphire]

thats even craizier

[quiet sapphire]

oh really?

[cedar compass]

Unless I’m really bad at math

[quiet sapphire]

i gues it will be effective healing against barbed, sure

but unhealthy one

one funny and healthy counter to barbed is painkillers

go fight, go till low hp, pop painkillers and finally you will be able to use all the cards you have saved up 🥺 😭 ( thos passive buff/debuff cards value will be lost because you used them after gunfight)

recommended only with medkit tho

Vampires could give tiny healing against health loss at using cards as barbed but its minuscule cus you will already be shot at to heal off when you have LOS to enemy

not really other "counters to barbed"

[cedar compass]

Vampire is what I currently use to try and “off set” the HP

[quiet sapphire]

Simplest point to condence is this

Barbed cards works by punishing people who saved up a lot of cards

The main strategy goal of Bo3 FvG cardgame is to win rounds with least cards used, and save up when enemy uses op "free win" combos so that in the last rounds you will have skillfully deserved advantage by having more cards to use.

Barbed cards works against this general gameplan and is flawdly designed by it and should be nerfed/changed for a healthier game.

[pale mist]

I think a healthy alternative

Could be having "In X time" effects that can carry to next round

Think like Wish in pokemon

Basically allowing someone to spend card advantage in advance of a final round

[quiet sapphire]

Thats called carryover, its a cool but dangerous mechanic if powercrepped

[pale mist]

Oh I agree

It's not an easy one to work around

But it could be a meaningful payoff to a deck designed around generating card advantage by efficient play

In final rounds it could be seriously delayed (but not useless) in order to prevent dead cards

(eg: next round OR in 30 seconds)

[quiet sapphire]

By the state of the game rn, dunno

The game has too many card advantage cards already

[pale mist]

This feels incongruous with your prior position on barbed

[quiet sapphire]

Extra, reroll, profaner, thief, lottery all generate card advanatge and have flooded the meta and some are musthaves

[quiet sapphire]

Im just saying to be careful to add even more card advantage cards when the game has alreasy ton of them

[pale mist]

nod nod, but if that's the position, the logical conclusion is that we should punish excessive hand advantage greeding

[quiet sapphire]

Definetly true

[pale mist]

I mean these would be effect cards not draw cards

[pale mist]

Is that not the function of Barbed, though?

You see the cyclical nature of that

[quiet sapphire]

Almost all of these need nerfing

[quiet sapphire]

Rn it too swingy

[pale mist]

Ex: Guardian Angel (Sets a turret in the center of the map next round [30s in round 5])

[quiet sapphire]

Both can be nerfed

[quiet sapphire]

Ah i though you were thinkimg to add more card advanatage cards

[pale mist]

Naw I don't think carryover in that way matters

that's the existing carryover

ntm it doesn't impact things like Barbed

since it would still directly interface with it

[quiet sapphire]

It punishes card advanatage cards and skillful methods of getting card advantage

[pale mist]

While true, how would you design something to not do both?

If you're getting massive damage on it, by and large it's going to be because those heavy hand advantage cards were used no?

[quiet sapphire]

By nerding the dmg a lot

So it wont scale as much

[pale mist]

(I am not disagreeing on the poor health of barbed but I am encouraging you to think about the dynamic here)
Nerfing the damage makes it fail as a pressure tool

For instance

Say it's set to 6 damage

[quiet sapphire]

Or just scrapping the whole card desig.

[pale mist]

It's a useless card then

[quiet sapphire]

I was think about 8-10 dmg

[pale mist]

Okay, is that thought process built around breakpoints?

At 10 damage its breakpoints are nearly identical to 12

For a 2card

[quiet sapphire]

Thpugh progree buil arpund me being able tp play at least 4-5 cards withput allowing barbed to get game winning dmg

[pale mist]

How card advantaged do you expect to be?

[quiet sapphire]

I mean imo it could be 8 dmg i just propose 10 cus some people could be mad if i suggested bigger nerf

[quiet sapphire]

Id like to play at least +3 from addition of starting with 3 cards that everyone draws without giving gamewinnig dmg value to barbed

[pale mist]

So would you say that you value a card at 25hp loss for opponent?

[quiet sapphire]

What do you mean?

[pale mist]

Well, if you plan to win on an investment of 6 cards, each card (weapon ignored) is contributing 25hp of swing

Playing 6 cards puts you to 78HP with -12 per assuming no healing

[quiet sapphire]

I meant being able to play at least 6 cards and not be automatically dealtg deadly amount of dmg

[pale mist]

Sure, but what is the value you're getting out of the cards?

If we assume that opponent has no cards reserved in fist and takes the 3 off draw

And both of you play out 6 to their 3

[quiet sapphire]

Thats hard impossible to say, depending on their cost you know?

Value is tied to cost

[pale mist]

And one of their 3 is barbed, that means that they're getting 2 non-barbed cards and you're getting 6 somethings

Barbed's value is maximized here and we already know it definitively gives -72 in this scenario (putting you to 78), and if we value cards at -25hp generally, then you should be winning 28 to 0

Does barbed in this ideal scenario do a ton? Yes

But if we assume that a card generally equates -25 in swing value, it still doesn't break dead even till 7 cards played (still in favor slightly of the 7)

[quiet sapphire]

I mean since average cost for a card is 2 and for example 2 cost no health is 38 should it be 38 ?

[pale mist]

Yes this is a spherical frictionless cow