Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[pale mist]

It's hard to gauge exactly how healthy or unhealthy thorns really is imo

[quiet sapphire]

But yeah, saying its not much dmg is fine too

Yuo yup yup

[pale mist]

I think it'd be much worse if it worked on hot potato

[quiet sapphire]

Yep

[pale mist]

(I am, slightly, super sad that it doesn't. My first deck concept was just trying to get people to thorns themselves to death on hot potato)

(I was heartbroken. It would have been so funny. And so frustrating for them.)

[cedar compass]

[pale mist]

LMAO

[quiet sapphire]

You can still barbed and present for 24 dmg

[pale mist]

Wait present counts for it?

[cedar compass]

You know how much I love hand manipulation

[pale mist]

Oh that's hilarious

[cedar compass]

Yes

[near sleet]

the issue with barbs being bad design is that it attacks a players card economy, they can choose to nto use cards and theoretically sacrifice a round, or potentially waste cards end up in a worse position still lose the round and be in a worse position for the next round, but if used in the final round its gets far more value than just health down, further more it greatly compounds if used multiple rounds in a row bc towplayer, profaner etc

[quiet sapphire]

Yup

[earnest violet]

Thats what I was gonna say before I got timed out

[quiet sapphire]

Silence , barbed and invis hand on last round is hell

[pale mist]

Why silence with invis

tragic

just invis barbed

[cedar compass]

Invisible Hand having no timer 😩

[quiet sapphire]

Not as a combo, just any of these cards on last roudn

[earnest violet]

Also just seems like Ruki just says "no its good" or "no" to a good change without even having a counter point. Thats what pisses me off a bit

[pale mist]

-ahhh

[cedar compass]

You could use silence to make them forget their cards from short term memory

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah but we went through that

[earnest violet]

(also apologies @winter palm but slight mood being bad due to my brother being a shitpit sometimes)

[quiet sapphire]

Ruki got feedback about it

[earnest violet]

((which he happened to be as we were having this discussion.))

[winter palm]

i gave a reason that you ignored, also again i didnt say it was healthy

[near sleet]

just let it be, even if someone says no without giving feedback which ruki didnt, let the community recognize that instead of insulting them

if you have an arguement and they dont people will see that

[earnest violet]

You didnt say any reason why its good. And if you did I did not see it as this chat goes surprisingly fast for a forum thread.

Imma make a list of all my personal wishes of changes to cards.. eventually, maybe

[winter palm]

i didnt say it was good, i implied it was fine bc it isnt as good as hp down.

now

that being said

doenst mean its heathy

[earnest violet]

Im somewhat of a gamedev I know what I'm doing (tho I dont know all the meta in this yet, I just know some cards are stupid in that they even exist, like barbed. Or that some are too op or too useless.)

[winter palm]

could even say hp down is unheathy

since its value is instant

[cedar compass]

Stacking it with poison or itself is rough too

[earnest violet]

Well HP Down does not punish you for using the whole mechanic of the game, Ruki

Barbed however, does.

[winter palm]

even if it did 1 dmg

[earnest violet]

Imo barbed is just a more punishing version of that card that makes you unable to use cards for a tiny bit (forgot the name)

Like i like that card cause its only a short duration. Its fine. And doesnt punish you that much

But barbed is just.. stupid

[pale mist]

I'd definitely disagree on that part

Silence is SO much worse

than barbed

[quiet sapphire]

Tbf silence is worse on close range maps

[earnest violet]

Yes its still stupid. Sometimes you literally win with like 8 hp so maybe you wouldve died from that

[quiet sapphire]

But both are ass desing

[winter palm]

i usually ignore the card and still use my 2 cards i need to win the round

[pale mist]

Barbed gives me a choice at least

Silence sets me on a 10 second disadvantage for existing

[near sleet]

are you playing in the upcoming tourney?

[quiet sapphire]

What about its used on you last round??

[earnest violet]

I prefer Silenced but People barely use it compared to barbed so might also be that im less annoyed at it, however silence still sucks, its just better balance imo.

[pale mist]

Interesting

[earnest violet]

Now the best one is a silence barb combo :)

So epic!

[pale mist]

I genuinely believe Silence should not be in the game

I don't believe that it should be nerfed. I think that it should not exist, full stop

[earnest violet]

Neither should be in the game

[near sleet]

this doesnt do anything

[earnest violet]

It does

[near sleet]

if you play silence on top of barbed?

[earnest violet]

First you cant use the cards at all and when you can you're punished for using them

[pale mist]

that's a nonbo

[near sleet]

this isnt a combo?

[earnest violet]

Wdym

[near sleet]

thats hyper ineffecient

[near sleet]

what combo?

[winter palm]

if your managing your cards right you shouldnt have too many to use anyway, but combines with other control cards like invis and garbo i can see what your saying

[earnest violet]

Im not interested so no

[earnest violet]

Using them both?? What is this question even

[near sleet]

do you play any card games?

[earnest violet]

Uno :)

But I know how to make good balance in games

[pale mist]

Silence barb isn't really a combo, it's what would be called a nonbo

[near sleet]

game dev in free time or do you have projects i could look at?

[pale mist]

Barb you want your opponent to play cards that aren't as effective

Silence prevents them from playing cards

[winter palm]

if you have a molebot you can use as many cards as you like :p

[pale mist]

They directly oppose one another's utility

[earnest violet]

Idk ive been hit by both and its really annoying

And unfun

[earnest violet]

Free time

[quiet sapphire]

You play perfect and save cards its a goal to have as many on the match points

[near sleet]

well you should apply to join brainwash instead of slugging it out in here

[quiet sapphire]

What are you saying Ruki

[earnest violet]

Im good

I dont want it as a main thing

[quiet sapphire]

Saving cards to have card advantage is the whole point of card management

[earnest violet]

Well I kinda do but not really

[pale mist]

Hmmmm

I think hand organization matters too

since we can't reshuffle

[cedar compass]

And then you get Invis’ed on game 5 and suddenly having all those cards is a weakness

[winter palm]

if you play perfect you'll have next round then

[pale mist]

Given invis hand exists

[near sleet]

but they clearly need your balance acumen

[pale mist]

For instance if I have a card in hand with chance to kill me

[earnest violet]

Thats what this forum is for silly

[quiet sapphire]

Its a card that punishes playing optimally

Thats unhealthy

[pale mist]

I may be more inclined to flippantly play it on enemy so if I'm invis handed later I can't accidentally self det

[quiet sapphire]

Its clear as day

[winter palm]

yea?

[pale mist]

Hmmmmmmmm

[quiet sapphire]

So you agree

[pale mist]

I actually don't agree

[earnest violet]

Also idk how much just game balancing adds to a dev team

[winter palm]

when did I disagree

[pale mist]

I think having cards that punish """optimal""" play actually helps break up what optimal play looks like for different strategies

And prevents meta stagnation

[quiet sapphire]

Why would you state thats its not that bad then

[earnest violet]

That'd be more of a playtesting or QA thing than dev @near sleet

[pale mist]

Invis hand isn't immitigable, but it is harder to keep track of with a monster hand

[quiet sapphire]

If its unhealhthy thats enough reason to change it

[pale mist]

WHich can be mitigated with deck composition or premeditated hand management

[winter palm]

i said its fine, but that doesnt mean i think its good nor bad, im nutral on this card.

[near sleet]

porque no los dos?

[winter palm]

i just think its fine

is that so wrong?

[quiet sapphire]

If yoi agree its unhealthy why are you saying it fine???

[earnest violet]

What

[quiet sapphire]

You just said its unhealthy

[cedar compass]

I almost miss the slower match timers to be able to think and strategize in between rounds

[winter palm]

i never agreed or disagreed. do you understand now

[quiet sapphire]

I do too

[quiet sapphire]

You agreed here

[pale mist]

For instance

I think a lot of things shake up what "optimal" play looks like

[near sleet]

i mnot gonna lie this one is a bit he said she said we can drop this one if rukis current statement is they dont care

[earnest violet]

Society if this game had 2v2v2v2 or 4v4 or 4v4v4v4 or 1v1v1v1.. that'd be really fun

[pale mist]

Helmet and Brain mirror, for instance

[quiet sapphire]

Its just naive to agree a card is unhealthy and then say its fine

[pale mist]

Flipping the optimal aim strategy into an ineffective or outright detrimental one

[winter palm]

jani can you please read bro

i didnt agree

[near sleet]

or just forcing you to adapt regardless of whatever "omptimal strategy" is, this issue is "playing cards" isnt optimal strategy, its just the game itself

[earnest violet]

Tbh I dont think you are so clear about that..

You just use single word answers

Thats not a clear answer

Hard to know if you agree or disagree

[quiet sapphire]

You said "yeah" to my statement " its unhealthy"

[pale mist]

I think the "yea?" in question was more inquisitive than agreed, but I'll agree that it was vague enough to be misleading

[earnest violet]

And I see that on others too not just Ruki

[pale mist]

That said, they've clarified in post

[earnest violet]

But mostly Ruki

[quiet sapphire]

Read that up

[winter palm]

yea. sorry if it was missleading.

[near sleet]

fr go make your own channel please

[quiet sapphire]

Hmm ok then

[earnest violet]

What?

[near sleet]

exactly

[earnest violet]

Can you please make sense lol

[quiet sapphire]

This just happens so often you know?

[earnest violet]

First you talk to me in Spanish now tell me to make my own channel??? What???

[winter palm]

i need to just keep in mind jani takes everything literally

[quiet sapphire]

Mostly

[near sleet]

this is kinda true to be fair lol

[quiet sapphire]

You need to clear if sacrastic

[quiet sapphire]

Thats litterally how i am

Maybe adhd dunno

[near sleet]

ehhhhhhhhh

[earnest violet]

Janikut walk into a wall for 4.7 seconds

[near sleet]

idk abt that

[near sleet]

taking things literally doesnt imply compulsion

[quiet sapphire]

Its a thing many people tell me

[cedar compass]

Getting back on track with balance, while we agree that Thorns is “annoying”, I don’t think it deserves any changes?

[quiet sapphire]

But i see it as other people need to be clearer

[earnest violet]

Do less damage or last a short period of time :)

And not upgradable

[near sleet]

i would nerf the dmg, while rukis statement of 3 cards is roughly a health down is true, the arguement then is that you arent "allowed" to play any cards beyond that whcih is rly harmful, especially on final round

[quiet sapphire]

Only rework can make it healthy

[near sleet]

its a poor design allround imo, but a timer doesnt make sense for it

[quiet sapphire]

Should we make barbed timed?

[winter palm]

again sorry i havnt had sleep if im not clear enough its because i cant really be the most coherent rn

[quiet sapphire]

Timer?

[earnest violet]

Yes

[near sleet]

idk that there is a healthy rework that doesnt kill it

giving it timer is just a shit silence

[quiet sapphire]

Thats understandable

[near sleet]

(i would arguye just delete it)

[earnest violet]

Not every card has to be op or useable in every match ever

[quiet sapphire]

Indie game

[near sleet]

your doing fine ruki dont listen to people

[cedar compass]

I think a timer could be interesting

[quiet sapphire]

Removing content also bad

[earnest violet]

Plus barbed is common, it shouldnt be as good as it is

[near sleet]

@earnest violet

[near sleet]

i agree

[cedar compass]

I mean if No Jump is something like 20 seconds, it would be the be the worst to have Barbed Cards match it

[earnest violet]

Yea i agree but its not a good solution

[winter palm]

whats a good solution?

i would like to know your thoughts

[earnest violet]

Like I said, lower the damage or have a short duration instead of permanent (for the round)

(and unupgradable)

[near sleet]

jesus, a timer makes the card unplayable at all levels including casual unless the timer is like 30sec-1min like dj. if it is then it is the exact same sitautuion we are in now, which means bc it cant be deleted (i know they arent gonna just remove content even if its correct to do) it needs to be dmg nerfed to 10 or 8 a card so that it is comparable with health down at 4 or 5 cards

[winter palm]

hmm

[quiet sapphire]

As much as i believe deleting profaner from the game would make the game a 10 better with 10000x the playernumber i cant really suggest it

[near sleet]

short duration will de facto delete it even if not literally

[quiet sapphire]

True

[earnest violet]

If I have the mood for it, I will make a google doc or something with every card and my personal ideas to change every card for the better in sake of balance. If a card doesnt need anything, I will write that.

[near sleet]

ik, i think deleting cards would make the game better but im not diluted enough to think they should, its just my design brain opinion

[winter palm]

thing is i stopped running cards like profaner and hpdown in my main deck since theres allot of more impactful cards in the game rn.

[earnest violet]

Currently I am eating dinner, so it will be a bit till then

[quiet sapphire]

💀💀💀

Bro playing the game on hardmode

[earnest violet]

Its not a good solution and if they did they'd have to give some sort of refund which might be slightly annoying to implement

[winter palm]

you think i cap but i could show you my main deck

[cedar compass]

I loved not having Card Profaner, I could run FK with Accuracy up

[pale mist]

do we have deck export yet

[cedar compass]

Nope

[pale mist]

eeeeeeeeeeeeew

:C

[quiet sapphire]

Would be the same as running Ribberto because "the game has many good perks"

[near sleet]

yes like i said im not diluted enough to think they should, but i do believe the game would be in a better state afterword

[cedar compass]

But there is a website to make your deck shareable online

[quiet sapphire]

We have site

[near sleet]

oh?

[pale mist]

good enough

[near sleet]

linky

[winter palm]

you say that but you dont run tinman or ice block

[cedar compass]

@near sleet @pale mist https://friendsvsfriends.help

[pale mist]

"Card Balance Suggestions" was a suggestion itself

[earnest violet]

Is there a good list of all carda btw? (That isnt the fandom wiki?)

[pale mist]

It's actually card balance Discussion

[earnest violet]

I guess that site might work actually

[quiet sapphire]

Yep, cus those arent 8 cost value cards like profaner is

[near sleet]

thank you

[quiet sapphire]

I agree tinman is crazy but not my style

[winter palm]

wiki isnt reliable, I dont think theres a good place to look at the card discriptions without the game itself

[quiet sapphire]

Ice is niche cus of fire

[earnest violet]

Nvm it doesnt list stats

[earnest violet]

I dont have all cards ingame thats the problem

[near sleet]

yeah

its just out of date often

[earnest violet]

And even then I need to know all stats regardless of level

[quiet sapphire]

Cus you can not run them without having major disadvantage

[winter palm]

do you have a question on a card? i could probably answer it

[near sleet]

kinda just gotta have em then

[quiet sapphire]

Try 1v1 me 10 games with profanerless deck

0 chance you win more

[earnest violet]

Well I cant know the card stats of a level 1 version that i have level 3 on, for example

[earnest violet]

Just need a list for when I make my own balance change list

[near sleet]

dont do this lol, our arguement is that its unhealthy win or lose

[earnest violet]

So I can quickly list changes to any/all cards

[near sleet]

i dont hink there is a good source of that

[quiet sapphire]

Ruki started stating his deck is fine without profaner

Imo its naive

[near sleet]

ik i saw but if you lose or dont draw profaner or get unlucky bc its rng it makes our argument look bad cuz you asked for a 1v1 lol

[quiet sapphire]

I also add its op

[winter palm]

when?

[near sleet]

if you just want to play fvf respect

[quiet sapphire]

Op and unhealthy

[near sleet]

ofc ofc

[quiet sapphire]

Soon. Not today

[winter palm]

wish i could help provide that for you but it just doesnt exist.

[near sleet]

but dont stake your arguement on beating them is all i say

[quiet sapphire]

All i want to do is make ruki see profaner is must have

[winter palm]

no i mean when did i say that?

[earnest violet]

Im gonna look at the wiki and if something is outdated in my list ig just lmk

[quiet sapphire]

You said your deck s
Doesnt run it. Thats an insuniotion its fine to run without it

[winter palm]

ive always said it was

[quiet sapphire]

Why state your deck doest have it??

[thick thicket]

Jani you have spent your entire day in here.

You need a break man.

[near sleet]

what was your intention with this message then? actual question?

[quiet sapphire]

Ill have 2 day break from discord tomorrow

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[thick thicket]

He's trying something different I guess? 🤷‍♂️

[quiet sapphire]

As a wise man once said... a nothinburger

[thick thicket]

We really going back to that?

[earnest violet]

Bleh

[winter palm]

oh shit you right i meant to say barbs not profane

[earnest violet]

Lol

[winter palm]

lol

[near sleet]

oh gotcha

[quiet sapphire]

Hahaha

[winter palm]

mb

[near sleet]

lol

[quiet sapphire]

Maan

Thats it

Goodbye for 2 days

Iv been inthis thread for too much

[cedar compass]

I’d take that match if I was home

[quiet sapphire]

Sure someday

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-fisheye-dontdox-gif-3447805512816793897

wdym by this

[quiet sapphire]

Watch over this place while im on Holiday

[pale mist]

Something is not quite correct with my memory of the deck build as it is right now but more or less this is what I've been running lately

https://friendsvsfriends.help/?deck=164.157.155.149.124.56.51.50.72.71.92.68.64.63.38.24.22.21.15.10.9.6.3.27.113

oh lol

[cedar compass]

I’ll do my best

Oh yeah the link posting doesn’t work too well

[quiet sapphire]

👑

[pale mist]

fixed

[winter palm]

immediately notices the venom eater

[pale mist]

I've been eXPERIMENTIng

lmao

[thick thicket]

Some odd choices for me, but looks overall fun!

[quiet sapphire]

Oof

[pale mist]

I avoid some of the more binary Goodstuff picks

I just don't enjoy them

[quiet sapphire]

Banned from balance discussion if you play venom

[pale mist]

Like shrink spell

LMAO

[quiet sapphire]

Xd

[pale mist]

I will hide in my cloud

[cedar compass]

“My safe space” 🙃

Besides changing the poisons to fire, nothing really wrong with this deck

[pale mist]

One of the funniest uses I got out of it was floor is lavaing island

Throwing tox bomb on top

and venom eatering

THE WORLD IS PAIN

[cedar compass]

You know floor is lava and pyromania work together?

[winter palm]

😰

[pale mist]

I figured they might

[cedar compass]

There’s your counter to no jump, make the world burn 🔥

[quiet sapphire]

Now thats what you call clear funny sarcasm

[cedar compass]

^

[pale mist]

alternatively

play no jump

[quiet sapphire]

Ok see ya

[pale mist]

play lava

cackle

[near sleet]

i dont think gold boira is worth at 2 imo

i think there are better 2 costs

i dont think the card needs to be changed necessarily i just would run a diff card

[pale mist]

Yeah, it's popped in and out of the list

[winter palm]

damn, you were joking?

[pale mist]

Sometimes I like it

sometimes less

[cedar compass]

G!Boria honestly can slap pretty hard with it’s tighter accuracy, +1 bullet, extra damage and no fall off

[near sleet]

oh for sure

but i just thin kthere are better options

[thick thicket]

Clearly this is the best deck

[cedar compass]

I mean look at Stevie 🙃

[thick thicket]

friendsvsfriends.help/?deck=19

I love this links

[cedar compass]

The small link LOL

[winter palm]

deck 19

[near sleet]

yes but stevie gets gboria for 0 cost and draw it every turn thats why stevies good lol

[winter palm]

Jakob knows best

[pale mist]

the tiptoe deck

[winter palm]

he has a statue after all

[pale mist]

sneeky

[thick thicket]

Clearly don't need anything else to play the game.

[near sleet]

i would swap it for disarm actually

[pale mist]

You're honestly probably right, mechanically speaking

I simply can't do that to people

Unironically I hate disarm and swap so much that I categorically do not use them

[winter palm]

I like deck 74 better

[cedar compass]

7.8/10, not enough Clown Shoes

[thick thicket]

Don't wanna run meta

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/view/клоун-gif-13031758617125701370

[thick thicket]

Meta is cringe.

[cedar compass]

Real talk, the buff to Silent Steps is great

The no noise on jumping/landing

[near sleet]

so valid

[winter palm]

is it live?

[cedar compass]

Yeah that change happened back when they did the sound patch

[near sleet]

the only good fvf player

[winter palm]

oh nice i never knew, i wish we had patchnotes more often.

[near sleet]

reminds me of og crouch strats

[cedar compass]

It wasn’t mentioned in them, but yeah

[winter palm]

that's what i mean, they've been silent about some changes lately, its hard to even tell if they're intentional or not.

like the lars buff

i guess the lars buff was unintentional since it got reverted

[pale mist]

I still think I'll always feel like I'm being lobotomized slowly playing with boiras unless they ever fix the semi-auto speed thing

[winter palm]

friendsvsfriends.help/?deck=51.50.56.64.67.96.10.21.9.22.38.104.147.139.62.8.86.98.46.3.127.6.14.35.124

heres something i'd probably put together as a comp deck

[pale mist]

Steel bullets is +20% yeah?

[winter palm]

i think so

could probably replace it with gboira

[pale mist]

so
150hp
boira is like 12/s
Goes to like 14/s
11 shots instead of 13?

[winter palm]

you combo it with a weapon card

[pale mist]

Albatross is still 2 shots I think overall, up to 126

[winter palm]

it gets more value that way

[pale mist]

on a headshot

I don't know if it's good for breakpoints is all

[winter palm]

usually with Liaka

[pale mist]

laika should do 46.8/s idk if it rounds up to 47 or down to 46

either way 4 shots

still 4 shots without steel bullets

if all are minimum bodyshots

no arm/leg

Spike pushes these break points of course

so spike with steel bullets reaches up past some of these

but at base idk

[winter palm]

yea maybe i just dont run it, just run bighead or gboira instead, headshots are a better dmg multiplier

[pale mist]

nod nod

seems about right

bighead is a double edged sword though

given brain mirror

or helmet god forbidf

[winter palm]

or helm

thats kinda why i usually dont run it

but cases they dont aswer it its realllly good

lottery could also replace, but that card has screwd me a few too many times, suprising bc the chances of getting a card from it is high.

[pale mist]

lottery reroll in hand is always safe

well, at least, value

depends how attached you are to your hand

[winter palm]

i dont want to lose my hand :(

[earnest violet]

@winter palm on Bomb Lover, why is every level the same? Is there even a difference or is this a instance where the wiki is wrong

(I dont have the card ingame, cant check)

I am currently writing my document for balance changes

[cedar compass]

I believe that the lowest level is actually 2

And the highest level is 4

@earnest violet

[earnest violet]

wdym the lowest level is 2

there is no difference listed here

[cedar compass]

Level 1 gives two bombs
Level 2 gives three bombs
Level 3 gives four bombs

OH WAIT THIS IS BOMB LOVER

Not bomb belt

I’m dumb

[earnest violet]

yeah..

Also can Card Profaner be used to give you Extra Cards again?

I am pretty sure it can right

[cedar compass]

No it can’t, nor Card Thief

But it can grab Reroll

[earnest violet]

ah

oki i thought i had seen someone say it can

Can extra cards give Card Profaner though?

[cedar compass]

Yes, Extra Cards is essential Pot of Greed

It pulls any two cards from your deck

[earnest violet]

hm oki

that does seem broken with profaner

[cedar compass]

Extra cards into Profaner is great because you can go through your deck without diluting the pool of cards you can pull from graveyard

Since Extra Cards and Card Thief are "banished" after usage (can't be Card Profaner'ed)

[earnest violet]

still seems pretty broken to just draw that again

[cedar compass]

I mean Card Profaner I would say is one of the most contentious cards in this game

[earnest violet]

I think I did fine balancing

I have gotten into the debuff cards now and just finished my thoughts of how to rebalance No Jump, but I want to do other stuff too. So I will stop there for now.

Also need help with the different levels of Ninja Smoke and what it does, currently I just wrote this lol

[earnest violet]

of course, the wiki is outdated, although not on most cards so far, most seem accurate to their current state, atleast comparing with mine. However when I finish this and post it, if stuff is outdated and you know every level's stats, lmk and i can work around that instead.

[toxic valve]

balance suggestion:

remove silence xD

half joking, half not. it's an aggressively better parley

it serves no purpose other than bum rushing off spawns

[vocal hawk]

Silence is Barbed cards without the counterplay

[toxic valve]

cant even tell you the last time i saw parlay champion 3+, there's no point

just play silence

[vocal hawk]

it's meant as a hand control option but opperates as a way to fully shut out people abaility to do anything

7 seconds is ABSURD

4 seconds MAX

that should be the balance if not simply removing the card as a whole

way too strong

[winter palm]

I dont think they're the same thing, parley can be used to close a gap or used defensively, silence is just a pure offensive card meant to disrupt the opponent.

[rain canyon]

parley isn't bad

[pale mist]

Okay fence is memed to hell

What if we just made it 0 cost

Fence in every game sounds hilarious and like it could not get old

:^)

[rain canyon]

it's very fun to use but wish it was better

It does pair well with reroll

[cedar compass]

I like how your suggesting this after the meme games we played yesternight

[pale mist]

correct

they were simply incredible

[cedar compass]

Except they had some really funky usage on hills

[pale mist]

yeah fix that shit

[cedar compass]

And I didn’t know they could attach to enemy fences

[pale mist]

better yet let me stack fences on top of fences

I want to have 2 height fence in the middle connected to two fences on either side for Extra Tall Fence

chevron fence

[rain canyon]

I really like how if you put laser fences on trains, elevators and moving cars the lasers will move around and connect and disconnect and such. it's really satisfying getting a kill like that

[cedar compass]

Almost like a surprise attack then

I wish electric fences functioned kinda like Wattson fences in Apex, where if a teammate tries to cross through it, it turns off (not damaging the teammate) and turns back on after they leave

[pale mist]

you HUH

Ohhhh I have new chaos to use

[quiet sapphire]

eehhh

i think venom is fine

haha

what do yall think?

[pale mist]

I like venom eater more or less how it is

numbers could be nicer but eh

I personally wish it just made poison damage poison healing

More reward for eating more poison

but it's fine as it is

[quiet sapphire]

My main point was to somehow buff toxic bomb venom combo

Cus from my experience its very poop

And devs designed for those two to work

[cedar compass]

The problem with toxic bomb is that if you stand in it, you're fully blind

Maybe Venom Eater could make it so you don't lose your vision so it would promote playing in the cloud

[pale mist]

well

making tox bomb draw correctly

and stuff

would help

:V

playing in the cloud sucks because you don't know when it goes away

since you're fullblind/it's active for like 6 seconds after

[fervent kernel]

Finally! It's a lil bit bad but not shit at all~

[quiet sapphire]

Maybe or just buff toxic dmg or cost

[quiet sapphire]

Your usage of it suprized me

[fervent kernel]

Hehe I said it from the very beginning! Tho seeing Al's plays were the key

Did I won becuz of venom tho? I forgot everything yesterday

[quiet sapphire]

Kind of yes haha

It was crazy

[fervent kernel]

It's still Meh tier! Hehe

[fervent kernel]

I'm gonna a wait for Koutu to send clips to YouTube so I can actually know what happened

[quiet sapphire]

Gameplaywise it was one of the most exiting matches ever

Tho double trucks was unfortunate

[fervent kernel]

I did not got any info about gentleman's rule. And my instincts kicked in.

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah it wasnt informed well, even tho there was a ton of talk about voting rule

[fervent kernel]

Tho! The moons round was not what I expected

[fervent kernel]

Wait was there?

Never heard anyone say it while tourney

[quiet sapphire]

Before tourney

[fervent kernel]

aaaaaaah

I fumbled in-game and out of game!

[quiet sapphire]

Nah you clutched

We will try to fix map voting next tourney

[fervent kernel]

yesh yesh for sure

[fervent kernel]

I tked Nyan

[quiet sapphire]

Right now it is what it is

[spark jungle]

Yeah venom eater was outhealing the damage from the shotgun pellets

Bohs should have used medkit earlier and present to switch weapons

[fervent kernel]

I knew they should have done that. Completely forgot I used venom at the last round tho

Cuuuuul!

[spark jungle]

Doesn't help that venom eater has no gfx

Maybe he didn't even notice

I didn't one round against randoms, there were no healing icons or anything

[fervent kernel]

You see the heal particles tho

Oh nvm. The poison particles covers them uppi

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

[quiet sapphire]

Ok guys

[fervent kernel]

Yesh?

[quiet sapphire]

With many points brough up my mind has been changed and i think nojump should be -1 jump system with the cap range of 0 and 2 jumps

[fervent kernel]

So it's a Buff to nojump

[quiet sapphire]

No, the opposite

Double jump will have flexibility to be used before nojump. 1 jump + DJ used -> 2 jumps -> no jump used -> 1 jump

And it would soft buff moose cus he starts with 2 jumps and will be left with 1 jump if nojump used on him

[fervent kernel]

Oooooh

Biggie brain

[quiet sapphire]

Also nojump could be renamed to less jump

[fervent kernel]

Btw rlly random question. Yesterday's tourney Nyan times his double jump ever so slightly as a no jump. I could double jump but he couldn't.....how does that happen?

[quiet sapphire]

Really?

Are you sure he couldnt jump?

[fervent kernel]

I said you can jump

He said "I cant"

And he never did

[quiet sapphire]

What map was that

[fervent kernel]

Trucks

[quiet sapphire]

Iv never seen or heard of jumps being different between teammates

[fervent kernel]

Ik! I was confused

[quiet sapphire]

First or second Trucks💀?

Cus yall got two💀

[fervent kernel]

I think first but as I said, I forgot everything yesterday

Probs gonna wait for the twitch clips on YouTube to see what was rlly happening

[quiet sapphire]

The replay is watchable in twitch rn

[fervent kernel]

Gimmie

Plssss

[quiet sapphire]

https://www.twitch.tv/thehungryfoxo/v/2130957556?sr=a&t=8593s

Damn i checked it wasnt because of venomn

You had steel vampire and more health GB, against vampire less healthed shotgun

[fervent kernel]

Yuuuppiieee(I knew vampie did some lifting)

Well for some unknown reason I can't see it lol

great

● bomblover Buff
Bombs dmg is same as normal bomb(idk it's a 3 cost card, let it be strong)

[quiet sapphire]

You cant?

[quiet sapphire]

You dodged molo nuke on wasteland and got rid of greenrex with laika first

Then it was just keeping long range against bohs shotgun

[fervent kernel]

I cannot

[fervent kernel]

Can you clip that for meeee?

[quiet sapphire]

One of the most Craziest clutches in FvF tourneys

Tho trucks for a second time was controversial. But its ok, its an issue for the next tourney to fix

[fervent kernel]

I did not thought ppl will go that hard on that

(It happened last tourney too why this time?)

[quiet sapphire]

Because there was a lot of talk about doing better with gentlemans rule.

[fervent kernel]

Ahhhh, understood

[quiet sapphire]

For example, bohs and green let you guys choose trucks without 50/50 because you lost rooftops

its unfortunate but fine, thats just how it is this tourney, because it wasnt enforsed

[fervent kernel]

I hope

[quiet sapphire]

Glitch = litterally garbage
Siaro = the only combo is with toxic... pretty bad
Sheep = removes headshot dmg thats nice
Laika = good in long range but gets easily overwhelmed

Initial impressions

[thick thicket]

Real question.

Siaro or Ribberto?

[near sleet]

ribb my beloved

[near sleet]

congradulations btw

i watched some of your matches, kinda steamrolling some teams

[quiet sapphire]

Ayyy

Thank you thank you

[near sleet]

cant wait to see/ play w/ ur card back

[quiet sapphire]

Ribby

[thick thicket]

Siaro cringe tier???

[quiet sapphire]

Kinda haha

[thick thicket]

Make it a tierlist

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah were designing it

Maybe tomorrow

I need screenshots of all chars

[rain canyon]

I think glitch needs at least 5 trash cards

[quiet sapphire]

ewww

Nah you know what, his passive should also have extra ability

That using trash will transfer it to the enemy

[quiet sapphire]

More garbage will be even worse

[rain canyon]

better rerolling

Giving opponent garbage sounds worse to me

[quiet sapphire]

Sounds like overdrawing to me

We already have bomb belt or lottey for that

Even more rerolling is neglidible

[rain canyon]

Don't always draw lottery/bomb belt. And now you don't even have to use that

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh i really tried this char with reroll but i hated every round without reroll cusi had my hand filled with useless poopoo cards all rounds without reroll

I guess they can counter mirro or counter but klustr is just better at that

[rain canyon]

Yea I don't think he's good either. I just think the one thing he's designed to do he doesn't do very well unless he gets more garbage cards. But even if he does it well, he's mid

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah there just doesnt seem be anythig usefull to do with garbage in hand. And reroll combo doesnt do much

You are passiveless all of the rounds just to have a chance to get 3 more cards out of reroll at some point

[rain canyon]

mhm

Maybe he should get 3-4 404 cards and those cards should have a little quirky slightly useful effect

[fervent kernel]

Sooo no headshot dmg? Not the original 30%?

[pale mist]

It's minus some amount. Boira was doing 13 to sheep head as opposed to normal 15

[fervent kernel]

Oki!

[near sleet]

does anyone know why tf they would buff the mine range?

the ice block change was good

but why did they buff mine?

[rain canyon]

No idea

[cedar compass]

The range they buffed was the activation range

Making it easier to step on

Not the explosion radius, that still is 4.6 meters

[near sleet]

oh hmm

[cedar compass]

So Landmine doing 140hp and being shot immediately upon being thrown is not any different from the previous patch

[near sleet]

its prolly just placebo then bc the ring that it makes has never seemed to match the actual explosion

but that could be a server thing idk 🤷🏻‍♀️

[near sleet]

maybe they should nerf it to match the patched sdd

130 -125? right

[cedar compass]

Honestly I don't know how I feel about the damage

However the more interesting nerf would be adding an arm time, land mine is just being tossed and shot

THAT part of the stratgey needs to be nerfed

[near sleet]

yeah that would be nice

honestly

make the mine explosion radius a lil smaller

give it an arm time

and let it do 2000 dmg

make it a true trap

and move it into the pink category so its hidden and baits like ninja smoke or something

[near sleet]

but unusuable the way that it currently is

[cedar compass]

@near sleet Sticky Bomb is the same

Where people don't necessarily use it the way its intended

[near sleet]

i havent experienced this as much?

like ppl throwing it at feet and blowing it up

or just running you down to point blank it

[cedar compass]

Exactly the problem, they aren't sticking you with it most of the time

And it does more damage than bomb

[near sleet]

well hold on

i can respect a nerf so that max dmg is 75 not 100

or maybe theres like a flat 20 dmg buff when stuck

but not sticking it is fine

[cedar compass]

Hold up

I like the cut of your gib

Because literally

That's what I wrote up

Sticky Bomb [1]
Nerf: Reduce the damage range of Sticky Bomb from 50HP-100HP to instead 50HP-80HP.
Buff: Add an extra 10HP-20HP “impact” damage if the bomb is directly stuck, the caster of the Sticky Bomb is rewarded with extra damage for landing a stick on their targets.
-OR-
Nerf: Increase the cost of the card from a 1 cost to a 2 cost.
Sticky Bomb as it currently is being used, is a superior option to the normal 1 card cost Bomb in almost every fashion. Other than the fact that it is unable to roll down hills, Sticky Bomb is able to explode faster upon contact with a surface, deal a greater chunk of damage, and even instantly kill targets with Bigger Explosions. The first proposed change would aim to divest some Sticky Bomb’s damage away from the explosion, but still keep its lethality by adding an impact damage, which would incentivize players to stick the target instead of simply shooting the Sticky Bomb out of the air.
While the alternative nerf of raising the cost of the card would better differentiate its superior level to Bomb, it would still have its huge swing potential in fights with a Sticky Bomb shot doing huge chunks of damage.

[near sleet]

i use it all the time when i can hard read the opps mvmnt and predict when they will tuyrn the corner to catch them and not have to stick it

[near sleet]

yoooo lmao

thats awsome

i dont think it should go to 2 tho

regular bomb should just have its timer reduced

[cedar compass]

Even that's why I listed in the reasoning that increasing the cost doesn't fix the aggravating issue

[near sleet]

true

[near sleet]

thats a good armada quote lol

[cedar compass]

Hahah, I needed something like that for the tournament I played recently

[near sleet]

oh did you play in 7

i havent watched all the matches yet

had work that day so i couldnt watch live sadly

oh or do you mean a melee tourney lol

oh no you made it to winners semis nice job

[cedar compass]

Winners finals actually, losing to the number 1 seed/winner's of the previous tournament

Lost again in loser's finals, we got third

[near sleet]

oh your right scuse me read the bracket wrong

do you know if either

[cedar compass]

No worries ^^

[near sleet]

historical brackets are available

and/or

historical deck lists are

?

i kind of doubt it

but i wanted to analyze players through history

and meta progression

[cedar compass]

You'd need to ask Koutu, he would have the brackets, as for decks, you would need to ask the person who won. Janikut posted the winning 2x Myk Raver comp

[near sleet]

gotcha thanks

[near sleet]

I’ve had this idea from the beginning but I’ll go ahead and put it out here, I want a self disarm button in the game

I want a button or card that is always in hand that disarms you back to regular boira (or even a nerfed boira “peashooter”)

It helps prevent lockouts

Gives you a chance tho small in situations like katana v speed buffed opp

It indirectly buffs sable without making the katana strictly better in a way the player base will negatively react too

It always gives you something to do, (maybe it starts unloaded so you can’t use it to freeload)

It interacts with other cards like thorns or invis

I’ve wanted it for awhile and I don’t see any downside to its implementation beyond dev resources

Thoughts?

Are we too attached to Lars/explosion resistance + lobber + swap?

(That’s why I want it worse than base boira so it’s still a downside to using it

[quiet sapphire]

Nah Strong disagree

[quiet sapphire]

that's the interesting thing about sable, you have to run weapons for at least couple rounds when you get movement diffed

[quiet sapphire]

this would ba an insane Sable Buff

[quiet sapphire]

why care about it, its very mid

any weapon counters that two 3 cost card combo

[quiet sapphire]

its a mega niche combo

[quiet sapphire]

it will be tooo much flexibility for sable

[quiet sapphire]

there are a ton of downsides imo

makes the stakes of playing weapons too bland when if theres any situation where your weapon isnt that good you will switch to normal boira

[quiet sapphire]

this could be a card or passive

but definetly not a tihng for every char to have

[quiet sapphire]

also, you would be able to refill mag with switching to normal boira XD

[cedar compass]

That is a good point, because you’re swapping weapons, would it be an instant reload?

[near sleet]

Nono I’m not saying the combo is a problem I’m saying would people be bothered by the loss of the combo for fun’s sake if my idea was implemented

[near sleet]

Yes but I’m saying specifically for this card it starts empty

[near sleet]

Nono it would start empty be the only weapon to do so

Like I said

[near sleet]

I don’t know if sable would stop running other weapons, the peashooter would be worse than base boira like 10 dmg head 6 body

[near sleet]

I mean this is fair but I don’t know that the stakes are high at all besides katana and flamethrower getting out ranged, but I actually would like to “fix that” because you just fully wasted a high value weapon card, still a big loss

[near sleet]

Okay hear me out
Rework:
1 cost weapon “peashooter” actively worse than boira but always starts in hand

[cedar compass]

Sounds like the perfect fun for Stevie (jk jk)

[quiet sapphire]

shotgun can be outranged too

[quiet sapphire]

if you get outranged its a valid skill issue

[quiet sapphire]

wasting high value card becase of skill issue should remain

[cedar compass]

On a personal level I do see what you are saying and I agree with you, but I don’t think being able to pull out a 0 cost weapon card after you committed to a particular power weapon seems fair

[near sleet]

You would still be wasting the card

[near sleet]

This is true and my idea still maintains the punishment for skill issue it just makes a 90 10 matchup a 80 20 matchup

Which is still you getting skill issued

[near sleet]

I mean this is fair if we think the idea of overcommitting should be maintained that strongly design wise

And really I would make the card bad enough that in a fair situation you still lose 90% of the time

It just gives you an option and “technically a chance” even if it’s realistically false hope

Also both players would have access to it at all times in terms of “fairness” but I see what you are saying

[cedar compass]

My only concern is Swap Weapons as a card

You can force people onto a really bad pistol

[near sleet]

Hmmmm that’s a really good point

I’ll have to think about that one

I don’t actually know how powerful that is compared to just taking their shotty ir other swap weapon plays

But the consistency of it is big

That could just be an issue with swap (I think it should be 4 but I won’t get into that)

[cedar compass]

Swap is very consistent in 1s, but loses it’s effectiveness in 2s or even 3s

[quiet sapphire]

never talk about 3s in here 💀

Those are cursed lands void of any possible balancing

[unreal ruin]

Laika players be like 💀

[cedar compass]

Pffff, it could happen, they’d just need to tune stacking of the same card

[cedar compass]

Laika being the quintessential example of a “feast or famine” character

[pale mist]

More like "If you play this character you're going to become a laika god because the alternative is to perish"

literally aim trainer character

[quiet sapphire]

And reduce cards drawn in game

Too much

[cedar compass]

Oh yeah, they’d likely have to go back to the older system of like

[cedar compass]

Starting Hand 4
Draw 2 per round

[cedar compass]

That, or you’re basically gonna have to rely on explosives to win you games

[cedar compass]

#📺clips-n-photos message
@quiet sapphire Should they be 1 to 1 in terms of the percentage?

[quiet sapphire]

Totally

Is that true?

Iv always felt like they are same?

[cedar compass]

I remember looking

Small Head: -50% for 1 point
Big Head: +70% for 2 points

It’s weird because most debuff/buff combinations are the same

[quiet sapphire]

Totally should be in the list to be 70%

Iincreasing enemy head is more valuable than tinying own

[cedar compass]

Small Head buff instead of Big Head Nerf?

I’m down for that

I’ll document that

Small Head [1]
Buff: Increase the head reduction from -50% to -70%.
Small Head currently does not fully counteract the effects of Big Head (a +70% increase). This change serves to bring them in line with one another.

[unreal ruin]

Small head is fine. It's cheap, cancels big head, and effectivey protects against mind blowing. 1 point category is always super competitive and less flashy cards are always going to be less popular

Big head we're up to 3 cards that counter it lol. Small head, helmet, and brain mirror

I like brain mirror because

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the problem... it doesnt cancel big head

Because it 50% decrease and big head is 70% increase

[winter palm]

its a 1 cost, chill out, i dont expect it to do that, it still reduces size.
If you want to full counter bighead you should be running helm or Brain mirror, what you're asking is for small head to out value those cards.

[fading tusk]

is this where we talk about balance?

[quiet sapphire]

yep

[fading tusk]

i had an idea that subsequent uses of healing cards would lessen their effect.

like after hitting one healing card (green herb, health up, medkit ect.) the next time you use one it has a reduced effect

I think a lot of Donnie B and Duck Anderson revolves to just "stat check decks" where you win by just having so much more health

thoughts?

[quiet sapphire]

well, we're mostly trying to suggest simple balance changes here. This one isn't simple and hard to communicate to players

[fading tusk]

I see

Maybe just increases to healing costs? Dont think that would do much

I think healing is something that should be looked at tho 👀 ! knowing you are going to lose fight solely because they just stat diff you isnt too cool

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-cat-gif-25783770

healing builds are already very weak

[fading tusk]

I don't like em

[quiet sapphire]

nerfing medkit could be decent

80+ no effort hp is pretty steep for a 2 cost

[quiet sapphire]

why not

[fading tusk]

I think on its own medkit is strong, but it feels fine to play into, it's the combination with things like duck Anderson Green herb, donnie b health up or kala's green appregio

[quiet sapphire]

by example of move slower and more speed the heve same %

[quiet sapphire]

a buff is 1 cost lower and a debuff is 1 cost more

because affecting enemy statuses is more valuable than buffing own

[fading tusk]

I think small head is chill

[quiet sapphire]

but why is a small head allowed to be less percentage even when we have example of same percentage debuff/buff cards

[quiet sapphire]

its super underwhelming

[winter palm]

agressive cards tipically cost more for good reason

[quiet sapphire]

exactly

so same percentage but for 1 more cost should be good

so make small head same percentage

[winter palm]

brother

[quiet sapphire]

my point is that those two are same percentage

[quiet sapphire]

yes? continue.

[winter palm]

so i can argue about this with you for 5 hours, on something as trival as % diff

[fading tusk]

I don't know if every card needs another card that completely reverses it

[quiet sapphire]

every balance change is trivial value change

[quiet sapphire]

with move slower and speed up it seems fine

[winter palm]

really not, there are things that are blaintantly op like shrink spell

[fading tusk]

Holding onto a card just so you can wait for them to use a better card to undo it isn't really innovative or fun counterplay

[quiet sapphire]

that are fixed by trivial value changes hmm?

[quiet sapphire]

whats your point here?

[winter palm]

it wouldnt be trivial

what point are you trying to make here?

[fading tusk]

I play a lot of OW2 (its a terminal disease I'm sorry), and Kiriko's cleanse is only used when the enemy Ana uses anti heal. It isn't fun or skill expressive to just hit e when they hit e. It does not make for interesting gameplay

[winter palm]

there are better options to counter bighead, there is no case for that in slow speed.

the values staying the same makes sense

for speed up and speed down

[quiet sapphire]

I have a simple point. Look at move slower and speed up, a buff for the same percentage is 1 cost and for 1 cost more you can get an aggressive debuff counterpart again for same percentage

[fading tusk]

I don't think many are saving a move faster card in the even they use move slower

[quiet sapphire]

why doesnt it in small head bug head?

[fading tusk]

The cards aren't used in that way

Oh well tho I'll let you two keep discussing it

[winter palm]

i JUST SAID WHY DO YOU READ

[fading tusk]

That's my take on the matter.

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/bohao-bohao-talking-to-a-wall-asian-guy-talking-to-a-wall-talking-to-a-wall-guy-talking-to-a-wall-gif-21417712

[quiet sapphire]

when it will be 70% it will be a good option to counter big head

[fervent kernel]

@quiet sapphire

[quiet sapphire]

we can make it a better counter for big head

[winter palm]

im done

[quiet sapphire]

bro your point is that small head is mega bad and isnt even a good counter to big head, no?

[winter palm]

its not meant to counter it

[quiet sapphire]

why not?

[quiet sapphire]

if it will be 70% it will be a good counter

and also just better as a card

[winter palm]

it negates its effect slightly if at all, but its better use is when bighead isnt used.

[quiet sapphire]

cus rn its pretty bad for average 1 cost value

[winter palm]

if your worrid about bighead use brain mirror or helm, PERIOD

[quiet sapphire]

im not worried about countering big head man

[winter palm]

im done arguing about this

[quiet sapphire]

im worried about small head being pretty shit rn

[winter palm]

well its not shit

womp womp

[fervent kernel]

It's decent but not meta

[quiet sapphire]

ehh, i rarely see it used and when its used it has little effect

[winter palm]

what statistics do you have?

[fervent kernel]

I mean small head ain't a card that's the winning play

[quiet sapphire]

big head with mind blow is mega winning play, litterally oneshots

[quiet sapphire]

pretty much is

[fervent kernel]

I mean small mbmb

[quiet sapphire]

just my playtime, like everyone else

[quiet sapphire]

but id doubt youd say you see small head a lot

[winter palm]

you're a small % of the playerbase, literally 1 player, thats not a good source my dude.

saying you hardly see it isnt a good argument at all.

[quiet sapphire]

thats litterally why im asking peoples opinion and discussing here

[quiet sapphire]

why hardly seeing cards played isn't a decent indicator that they are bad?

[winter palm]

and im telling you, always having numbers 1 to 1 is not always the way my dude.

bighead is very strong yes, but its effect can be played into super hard by the opponent to their benefit.

[quiet sapphire]

Hmm now that i checked here are lots of cards that have varying precentages

Quick 50%, slow reload 40%

[fervent kernel]

Let them be

[quiet sapphire]

Of course

[fervent kernel]

Nice

Hmm I wouldn't mind big mag being 50%.....maybe just me

(Or just make it as small mag)

Go uppie now down

[quiet sapphire]

Hmm i llet this be tho imo small head is pretty weak

[quiet sapphire]

See? I change my mind frequently.

[quiet sapphire]

Ok about this

@winter palm how about making big mag 50%

[fervent kernel]

I mean we can't just delete the head. Tho 70 or 80? I wouldn't mind("mind")

[winter palm]

big mag could use a buff, since it doesnt affect liaka, making 50% giving her an extra bullet could be nice.

[fervent kernel]

Would make Lillka with big a lil better? Ehhhhh? And generally big mags weird.....doesn't counter small at all

[quiet sapphire]

Nice

[winter palm]

it got a buff recently and it still could use some love

[quiet sapphire]

Yep

[winter palm]

i dont see myself using it still tho personally even if it does get a buff.

but that's just me.

[quiet sapphire]

I think it will be great in a deck for Laika

[winter palm]

yea

[quiet sapphire]

👍

[winter palm]

my list so far would be

1. remove fire damage during nuke transition

2. buff bigmag from 40% to 50%

3. nerf shrink spell duration by 5 seconds

4. rework the effect of venom eater

4. increase the cost of present from 1 to 2

5. increase the cost of nuke from 0 to 1

6. maybe nerf tinman in some way, but this hasn't really been discussed as much as it should be.

[quiet sapphire]

where profaner nerf?

[winter palm]

you mean that card thats been heavily debated for weeks, that has split opinions everywere.

it shouldnt be touched. till other things are fixed, things people agree on should change before something like that gets thought about.

I wouldnt put bias in my list, (example me crossing out the reworked venom eater, put there as a joke because I havnt seen people really agree with me)

[quiet sapphire]

half of the community agreeing it is problematic is not bias

its tested feedback from community

[quiet sapphire]

why not prioritize on fixing the card that will most of the times gives 2 most op combo card back whatever the meta?

for only 4 cost

[winter palm]

yes it is

ignoring the half that doenst agree is 100% bias

lol

[quiet sapphire]

the strongest argument of the other half from what iv seen is "but its funny"

[winter palm]

Jani stop pressing..

[quiet sapphire]

theres nothing healthy or skillfull about profaner

[winter palm]

that clearly wasnt part of any argument

[quiet sapphire]

i though you at least agreed to nerf its cost

[quiet sapphire]

I just haven't really heard strong and healthy arguments to defend profaner ever from anyone. While theres essays from tons of different players to back up it to be nerfed

[winter palm]

and thats what we call, readers bias

you only precive the ones that favor your argument.

[quiet sapphire]

no im alwasy happy to talk about profaner

all im doing is waiting for strong arguments to be brought to not nerf it

[quiet sapphire]

the point of me talking here is to perceive others arguments

[winter palm]

id rather talk about something poeple will agree on

and not waste my time

[quiet sapphire]

hmm? The point of this thread is to exchange and challenge others ideas about balance

[quiet sapphire]

you only want yesmen?

[winter palm]

huh? no i just know neather of us are going to move on profaner so its a waste of time lol

[quiet sapphire]

i can move... once i hear good arguments

[winter palm]

bias.

[quiet sapphire]

but if your not willing to lay down your points its ok

[quiet sapphire]

how is that bias?

im telling you i would love to hear you out on it

[winter palm]

im not talking about profaner rn, stop pushing it sm.

[quiet sapphire]

well rn im replying to your bold claims

[winter palm]

sorry for the bold claim

[quiet sapphire]

and i already said its ok if you don't wanna change my mind about it

[winter palm]

anyway

so how would we nerf tinman?

[quiet sapphire]

to 3 cost

most simple nerf imo

[winter palm]

5 second duration honestly seems crazy aswell.

[quiet sapphire]

gets in line with painkillers

[winter palm]

you can do allot in 5 seconds.

[quiet sapphire]

sure but i wouldn't do tragic changes

put it to 3 cost and then we will see if its still too strong

[winter palm]

wonder if people would agree with that, or if they'd prefer it to stay cheaper and nerf the duration by like 1.5 - 2 seconds.

I could honestly go ether way.

[quiet sapphire]

naaah

[winter palm]

nerfing the duration would also make it allot more diffrent than painkillers.

[quiet sapphire]

would would make it more like freeze gun

that one is already 3 secs of no bulletdmg

[winter palm]

you still take damage from all other sources during frozen gun.

turrets bombs etc

but you can react to a sticky and such with tin.

[quiet sapphire]

so it will still be just a better freeze gun

[quiet sapphire]

does the same but also prevents bomb and turret dmg

just make it 3 cost so you actually have to pay more for more effects

[winter palm]

not always, for instance on rooftop i like to try to close the gap with frozen gun as haru if the opponent has a sniper or liaka.

you cant really do that with the tinman slow

[quiet sapphire]

ehh in most FvF fights it will be the same but just better

[quiet sapphire]

gap closing is better left for ninja smoke, tp, parley

[winter palm]

sometimes options are limited

[quiet sapphire]

i mean sure i could agree on either way but imo back to 3 cost feels more natural

for tinman

make it more like it used to be

[winter palm]

I'd like to know what others think, again i could go eather way.

[fervent kernel]

I know this ain't a place where new card ideas get thrown but I have 1 idea that could be broken
bug mags /1 or 2 cost idk
It constantly reloads 1 bullet the time varying from weapons. It's like a different version of big mags but not increasing your mag size directly. It could just be overpowered with shotty and Alby tho hehe. Maybe 0.7 secs for boira, G boira, brass, Bitey and 1.5 secs for Laika and 2 secs for Alby, shotty, punch R, Katana

The timer could go down right after you click or after the push and pull for the guns

Let me know how bad are my biased ideas hehe

[near sleet]

Hey did we get a balance patch today?

I’m hearing talk of sable buffs but I’m at work rn

If we didn’t would love to see some patch notes

[near sleet]

I’m in favor of tin man at 3 but I just don’t see a reason for it to exist besides redundancy at that point

It becomes extremely redundant with pks imo

(Design wise)

I have some more wacky ideas for it tho

My main idea

Is still put it to 3

But instead of invulnerability you get “your whole body is a helmet”

And it lasts an extra like 1-2 sec

The other idea is leave at 2 or even take it to 1 but it only lasts for 1-2 secs so it’s a reactive tool to bombs and rly close fights vs turret

Like how ice block is supposed to be used and one of the ways people use 0 cost nuke

[near sleet]

I like tinman as a reactive tech card much more than as a gap closer I think Janis right here

[cedar compass]

This was one thing I was looking at

Trying to figure out how to best adjust Tin Man

I think the speed penalty on it is fine right now

It’s either tweaking the duration or increasing the card cost

[near sleet]

I mean

3 cost even longer duration higher speed penalty?

Isn’t that basically what we started with tho?

[quiet sapphire]

huh?

why does it need longer duration

its doesnt

its already overtuned

[near sleet]

As balancing for making it slower

[quiet sapphire]

1 cost nerf would fit it perfectly

[near sleet]

I’m not trying to buff it

[near sleet]

And I agreed with that initially and expect is what will eventually actually happen

I am engaging with the conversation. Of potential more serious reworks by floating a different idea

[quiet sapphire]

you just confused me with longer duration talk hehe

[near sleet]

That’s what the ? Marks are meant to indicate

[quiet sapphire]

no balance patch

[near sleet]

lol yeah my first rework is my real idea I don’t like the idea of the design as a combat ability at all

[near sleet]

When was sable buffed then?

Like awhile back right?

[quiet sapphire]

loong time ago

[quiet sapphire]

ye

[near sleet]

Okay gotcha

[near sleet]

Honestly tonman being a combat ability I think is just a terrible design overall

But it’s not particularly agregious so just hit it’s cost and we’re good

Also how do we feel about it hitting both players in 2v2?

Can we change it to just the player that used it?

Could it be a purple card or smthn?

Or can it not cuz it has a timer?

[quiet sapphire]

Dunno if fundamental changes are needed

Id just see first how well it fairs as a 3 cost

[near sleet]

That’s fair

[pale mist]

how to counter bighead: play sheep

:)

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh, big head is mostly played for brain tho

And sheep doesnt affect brain

[pale mist]

true

[pale mist]

Shrink lasts wayyyyy too long

[jolly crown]

it wasn't that bad until they nerfed ice block the only way to stall out shrink and other toxic cards like no jump

[pale mist]

I still think it's that bad

it's -85% size for like 20 seconds

that's fucking crazy

ugh