Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[pale mist]

I wouldn't mind them letting balance sit while they fix issues

Honestly a lot of the bugs impact balance anyway

[quiet sapphire]

True, those should be the priority

[winter palm]

game is relitivly balanced, maybe theres some small offenders here and there that need adjustments but bugs really need to be looked at since they've been around for awhile

[pale mist]

As well as quality of life things. I don't use the grenade launcher, but it shouldn't self-det on walls behind you if you're touching the wall

[quiet sapphire]

I agree

But bug fixin priorities doesnt stop us from progressing in balance discussion

[pale mist]

^^ Agreed there too

As long as the discussion isn't RAH devs do this NOW babyrage

lol

[winter palm]

RAH?

[pale mist]

hey yknow it's my best impression

i'm workin on it

[quiet sapphire]

Haha

Good one

[winter palm]

oh I see

[quiet sapphire]

I sometimes harsh to say here some balance changes NEED to happen... like nerfing profaner.

But ultimately we just show the balance suggestion list to devs and afe happy if they decide to implement any

Lately devs have taken many suggetions

[winter palm]

only nerf i see happening is an increase in cost.

[pale mist]

Hmm

As much as I like profaner in jank, I kind of would like to see it just conceptually reworked entirely

It fundamentally by existing breaks the round-economy of the entire game

It's rough in 1s but it's actually wild in 2s

[quiet sapphire]

Thats all iv been saying

Coming up with reworks

[winter palm]

ive mentioned this before but adding more value options that can compete for profaners slot for the same cost i think could be fun.

[pale mist]

I'd be interested in seeing attempts to do this, but we'd almost need a specific tag for cards that can't be profaned

[fervent kernel]

We just need time and wait for what the devs are cooking👀

[quiet sapphire]

Iv mentioned this before anything that would like to be better than profaner will be copied by profaner

So profaner will stay op

[winter palm]

running both would be taxing for your decks, ik what ur going to say jani

[pale mist]

Floor is lava and brain mirror were wonderful additions though so I do have good outlook for future cards

[fervent kernel]

Stuff such as extra, profaner and cardthief and hot cards can't be profaned.....making that range broader would be rlly goodie

Tho how?

[winter palm]

profaner DOESNT work on value cards, value cards do not go to the gave.

[quiet sapphire]

4 cost profaner to play something better that 4 cost profsner

[quiet sapphire]

What do you mean?

[pale mist]

Yeah the issue is making that intuitive. For now it's intuitive because cards that get cards can't be profaned, but if we have profaner-power-level-non-draw cards it'd get messy is all

Not that they couldn't do it

[winter palm]

profaner cant make copies of it, you know it doesnt work with lottery or extra cards right?

[quiet sapphire]

Oh you are saying card that draw

[quiet sapphire]

Id call them drawng cards, not value cards

[pale mist]

Yeah I think what they mean is what kind of ideas you're wanting out of potential profaner-slot value cards

[winter palm]

value also includes cards like bombbelt

[quiet sapphire]

Reroll tho...

[pale mist]

Does profaner not pull bomb belt?

[quiet sapphire]

Profaner works with bomb belt tho...

[winter palm]

might be an oversight, bc it doesnt work with the gate card or bat turrets.

[quiet sapphire]

Ehmm it does...

[pale mist]

:O
I'm curious to test that later

[quiet sapphire]

Always has

[fervent kernel]

Reroll feels more like a bad card to profane

[pale mist]

I could have sworn it worked on them but I could also be wrong

[winter palm]

yea get back to me on it bc im not 100% bc i swore we tested this before.

[pale mist]

I won't be able to test till like 7pm tho

[quiet sapphire]

I can test soon

[fervent kernel]

Bomb takes some skill to use effectively I don't mind

[quiet sapphire]

Cant wait to debunk Rukis point ❤️

[pale mist]

Friends versus Friends card interaction trivia moment

Competitive Head to Head Trivia

[quiet sapphire]

Game knowlege moment

[winter palm]

👀

[pale mist]

when you profane reroll to speedrun having no draw pile

[quiet sapphire]

Can we have FvF trivia tournament

[pale mist]

it's bigbrain time

[quiet sapphire]

I mean it can be good to profsne

[fervent kernel]

If it don't have beta stats I would have a fuuun time

[quiet sapphire]

Just needs to be used to roll empty the first time

Everyone abuses reroll to roll empty hand anyways

Just turns into extra cards

And profaning extra cards is crazy

[pale mist]

I'm just surprised that empty deck doesn't just reshuffle grave to top

Still

Like it's absolutely unhinged to reroll through your whole deck to get to your parallel world second deck

[winter palm]

rather or not it works on belt or the bat turrets, etc.
wasnt my point my point was it wouldnt work on value cards it's competing with, just fyi

[pale mist]

but I think it's funny enough in concept I wouldn't necessarily mind it

Aye. Your bigger point definitely wouldn't be hit by it working on the burn card creators

But that still begs the question, what kind of things are you hoping to see from a value (read: hand advantage) card that is in the same cost as profaner?

[quiet sapphire]

The cards not prifanable are ONLY cards that draw more cards

[winter palm]

are you 100% on this?

[quiet sapphire]

What do you think is the pattern?

[pale mist]

While I can't confirm it right now 100%, I do know that in my personal experience the only cards that failed to profane were hand-advantage cards

Stuff like Card Thief

[quiet sapphire]

I got lazer fence

[pale mist]

hell yeah

[quiet sapphire]

Its profaneable

[pale mist]

okay duos

[pale mist]

both profane laser fence

[winter palm]

time will tell, not really sure atm, concepts for such things can be hard to come up with.

(this idea isnt fleshed out fully ik its kinda bad with current iteration)
Equalize - each other player draws cards equal to the difference of cards with the player with most cards in hand [4 or 5 cost]

was one idea of mine

[pale mist]

EIGHT FENCES

[fervent kernel]

Big brain moves

[winter palm]

neat

[pale mist]

That's interesting in 2s

A little insane in ones, but I like the vibe

[quiet sapphire]

will you agree to nerf it now? it can profane LAZER FENCE

the missing link

[winter palm]

coulda sworn people tried to do this when the card came out and it didnt let them, maybe they fixed it?

[quiet sapphire]

for -Ruki to agree to nerf it

[winter palm]

shit you're right make profane cost 10

[pale mist]

too many poles

[quiet sapphire]

!! this !!

we agree

thisis going to the list

[earnest violet]

Cost ten and as a safety measure take up 50 card slots

[pale mist]

oops all profaner

Anyway I gotta go move a bunch of AV equipment I'll catch back up on the chaos in here later

o7

[quiet sapphire]

HOLY SHIT

so bat turrets isnt profanable

the fuck

[pale mist]

Weird!!

[winter palm]

damn, buff profaner i guess

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-6997856904020830598

[foggy niche]

true

[pale mist]

Can't argue with that logic

[quiet sapphire]

profaner to 0 cost

[pale mist]

Profaner- cost 10, card slots 50, can now profane bat turrets

[quiet sapphire]

it cant profaner bats turrets

[pale mist]

Question actually

[winter palm]

can you profane reroll? very rare case you get a chance to try.

[quiet sapphire]

it does

[pale mist]

What do people think of making profaned cards burn variants

[quiet sapphire]

everyone knows that

[pale mist]

Aka cant hold between rounfs

[winter palm]

ah seems like an oversight if thats true, it shouldnt be able to

[quiet sapphire]

yes

[pale mist]

I think you can just because

[quiet sapphire]

but...

[pale mist]

It decks you FAST

[quiet sapphire]

nah yeah i agree

of course it shouldnt

[winter palm]

let profaner profane bat turrets and remove reroll?

[pale mist]

The sidegrade god intended

[winter palm]

profane doesnt need a buff but it seems like a bug

[quiet sapphire]

it can profane bomb belt

[pale mist]

Many bomb

[quiet sapphire]

NERF profaner

[pale mist]

This is a rollarcoaster my heart cant take it

[winter palm]

bombs you lose after the round

[quiet sapphire]

my favorite combo is bomb belt -> profane -> bomb belt -> reroll

[winter palm]

I was going to say unless you reroll them

your going to deck yourself tho

and waste allot of cards that were in your hand

[quiet sapphire]

nothing bad in it unless you reroll any other cards

[winter palm]

i mean true enough

[quiet sapphire]

yup

nerf profaner

[pale mist]

Bomb belt fence profane bomb belt fence reroll

OPTIMIZED

[quiet sapphire]

the ultimate combo

[quiet sapphire]

myth BUSTED

[pale mist]

Partial busted

[quiet sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/mythebusters-boom-adam-savage-gif-12727469

[winter palm]

here, we make profane more expensive to run, but we fix it for batturrets

[pale mist]

Bats survived busting

[winter palm]

not really, they can still give value

[quiet sapphire]

? like every card does

[quiet sapphire]

you point was they arent profaneabe

[winter palm]

not every card gives more cards

[quiet sapphire]

you confuse the word "value" with "card drawing"

[winter palm]

my point was profane shouldnt be able to profane value cards.

[foggy niche]

pls make bat turrets have vampire bullets 😭

[quiet sapphire]

WHAT is a VALUE CARD

i dont understand you

[winter palm]

that's what i thought they'd do when they came out

[quiet sapphire]

sticky has value

vampire has value

[foggy niche]

YESS

[quiet sapphire]

every card in the game has value

[pale mist]

What do bat turrets do if they dont have vamp bullets

Wait what

How do they even work

[quiet sapphire]

they just tiny catturrets

[pale mist]

......

[winter palm]

i thought you play'd tcg's?

value is a common term used to measure how many cards a card is worth typically.

[pale mist]

That's so lame

[quiet sapphire]

they are called baturrets cus bast are tinyer than cats

value means value

[quiet sapphire]

wait what

[winter palm]

i get how that can be confusing xd

[quiet sapphire]

what the hell do you mean by profaning not being able to profane value cards

[pale mist]

I typically hear value referred to in terms of hand economy whem discussing value cards, versus a card generating value

[quiet sapphire]

yeah like less health has a value of 2 cost

value is given usually measured by cost

or by combo

[pale mist]

Ex: extra cards is a value card in terms of hand econ

But swap is a card that generates a lot of value in on-board power diff

[quiet sapphire]

i use value in fvf as a cost/value ratio

of how much cost does a card give you?

[winter palm]

cards that generate cards should not be able to be profaneable to get you even more value ultimatly giving 5 cards for 2 using extra cards as an example

[quiet sapphire]

less health gives you the value of 2 cost card

[quiet sapphire]

in FVF value is tied to cost

not to draws

[winter palm]

right but im just speaking in tcg terms

[quiet sapphire]

we need to speak in FVF terms please

were talking about FVF

[winter palm]

nudg gets it

[quiet sapphire]

then just say profaner isntt supposed to profane cards that draw more cards

like normal people

[winter palm]

value can also mean other things than just drawing cards, such as taking out their cards or generating multiple card effects.

card economy like nudg said

[quiet sapphire]

why isnt doing 100dmg with sticky "value"

why isnt doing more dmg with alba "value"

why using faster to dodge bullets isnt "value"

[winter palm]

that's just a different sense of value.

[quiet sapphire]

if every card has value, why call cards that draw more cards "Value cards"

[winter palm]

like say you miss your sticky

thats negitive value

you lost a card that did nothing

[quiet sapphire]

not negative id say just 0 value

[winter palm]

its negative bc you lost a card

you're down a card from your opponent

[quiet sapphire]

skill issues doesn't affect measuring value of a card in the broad sence

[quiet sapphire]

ok

but generally in the broad sence sticky is about 70 dmg value

100 dmg but yo miss sometimes, lets average it to 70 dmg value

[winter palm]

I mean im sure you wouldnt say that if you miss every bomb

[quiet sapphire]

and 70 dmg is a bit overtuned for 1 cost value cus you know, poison is 25 for the same cost

[quiet sapphire]

thats a skill issue of an individual. Skill issues doesn't affect measuring value of a card in the broad sence

[quiet sapphire]

id still say that because that would mean i just suck when everyone else does about 75 dmg with the card on average

[winter palm]

right but my point doesnt really gotta do with skill or bombs or anything like that, cards in tcg have their own different uses when building a deck in a tcg constructing a good deck is a skill on its own and reqires a balance of your wincons and streight value.

[quiet sapphire]

i agree, you are derailing the discussion

why do you call certain cards "value cards" when every card has some kind of value

[winter palm]

no im not

my point never changed

[quiet sapphire]

i still don't understand this

plase explain that to me

[winter palm]

Punsi save me

[fervent kernel]

Power cards that wins games(shotty, akimbo etc.)Or support cards that support them(more accuracy etc.)

[quiet sapphire]

oh??

really?

ruki wants to make that shotgun akimbo, isnt profanable?

[fervent kernel]

I think?(Ruki save me, I just wanted to help you)

[winter palm]

lol

[pale mist]

We're just conflating econ and value

Econ cant be profaned

[quiet sapphire]

Ruki i genuinely don't understand what do you mean with "value cards"

[winter palm]

yea jani is just confused what i mean when i say value im sure.

[pale mist]

If we're talking in-round on-field value then we can talk power cards

[quiet sapphire]

nobody understand you, even Punsi doesnt

[pale mist]

But clearly value as a term is muddied here

[winter palm]

no jani its just you

[quiet sapphire]

ahemm

so Punsi understands you want hotgun akimbo not to be profanable

[winter palm]

Punsi was right

[fervent kernel]

yaaaaay

[quiet sapphire]

what cards, specifically you dont want to be profanable?

[fervent kernel]

Probs not directly like that. But supportive cards such as move faster, double jump wouldn't be that broken if we could in theory only make those profanable.(this might be just more confusing)

[winter palm]

cards that make more cards or take away cards, i guess is one way to put it

aand thats not exclusive to drawing cards

[quiet sapphire]

Cards that DONT make more cards??

[quiet sapphire]

you dont dont want those cards to be profanable

amazing

So Ruki wants only for card thief, extra cards and lottery, bomb belts, laser fence and bat turrets to be profanable

🫡

[winter palm]

you asked what i want not to be profaneable, but ok

[quiet sapphire]

and yo said cards taht DONT make more cards

thats a double negative

[winter palm]

i misspoke then

im tired ok i havnt been able to rest the past few days.

[quiet sapphire]

hmmm understandable

that's why i tried to clarify

[winter palm]

sorry

[quiet sapphire]

But that would mean Sdd and titan would not be profanable

they make more cards

and potato and love letter

[quiet sapphire]

if reaching

[winter palm]

ok but thats 2 cards with 1 effect, thats not really a value card in that sense

[quiet sapphire]

its an effect that has value like any other

value to choose when to go back to normal and value to choose when to explode

[winter palm]

economy

[quiet sapphire]

? explain further than one word

[winter palm]

card economy

[quiet sapphire]

explaining points was going so well😭

[pale mist]

Cards in hand or lasting value vs card effects in current round

Drawing- effects all later rounds

Playing titan: effects this round

[winter palm]

i try to keep it simple but you always need me to write an essay,

it has 1 effect with a cost equal to it, other cards get you other cards with higher value than themself
thats real value.

[winter palm]

yes ty

[pale mist]

I think proposing it in terms of effect valuation per round isnt super helpful becausr those are debatable

But card advantage isnt

[quiet sapphire]

thank you for being my translator

[winter palm]

im not good at explaining it i guess

[pale mist]

You're fine i gotcha

[cedar compass]

I’m sorta playing catch-up here, but @pale mist , did you want to talk about Katana like we were yesterday?

[fervent kernel]

Katana?👀

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/bye-cat-bye-cat-cat-meme-gif-27333069

[quiet sapphire]

is it about getting more cards that have more value than thw initial card or it it about getting value for the next rounds?

[pale mist]

We brought katana up already yeah

No conclusive areas

Sidetracked

[winter palm]

yea thats part of it but its not easy to explain

[pale mist]

Consensus at least that we dont want it nerfed, sidegraded if anything

Unless I'm misrepresenting anyone

[quiet sapphire]

id like it nerfed a little, i feel it being a tad overturned with all the tiny maps and insane speed and movement cards

[pale mist]

I feel like having similar powrr level with more interactivity does accomplish that so agreed

[winter palm]

its like nudg said before, value = card economy

ether it taking away opponents or getting more for yourself
(there are cases were it isnt seen as true card economy because it can be temporary, this isnt unique to FvF)

[quiet sapphire]

its just that cards like bat turrets and bomb belt dont affect any next rounds and Ruki says they are "value cards" too

[pale mist]

I would personally disagree with them on that area

[quiet sapphire]

I be fine with calling card drawing cards "value cards" but i don't understand bomb belt or lazer being "value cards"

[pale mist]

Those are in-round effects

[quiet sapphire]

exactly

[pale mist]

That said

[quiet sapphire]

see?

[pale mist]

You can convert them to value by using reroll

Which is an argument in favor of it

I suppose

[quiet sapphire]

so thats the only reason?

[winter palm]

who in what area now?

[pale mist]

Devils advocate

[winter palm]

i never said that

[pale mist]

Oh, you in evaluating bomb belt/fence/bat turret (other burn carders) as value cards.
I feel like I got the impression that was your position as well

[quiet sapphire]

exactly

[pale mist]

If it's in error thats chill

[winter palm]

thats just temperary value, very grey area.

[quiet sapphire]

what is, bomb belt?

its as temporary as speed up

one round

[winter palm]

if you reroll it technically value, or you could call it by another term used in other tcg's "impulse draw" value you need to use that round.

[pale mist]

PV : potential value hahaha

[winter palm]

sure

[pale mist]

I do think the interaction with reroll doesnt recatrgorize them though imo

It just makes reroll even more variable value

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[foggy niche]

https://tenor.com/view/neuron-activation-neuron-gif-1455356329209493514

[winter palm]

im fine with profaner working with the "impuse draw" effects tho since the value doesnt stick.

i just thought it didnt work before

since it didnt work with bat

[quiet sapphire]

so you are saying you want profaner not to work with cards that give value to next rounds?

[winter palm]

yea

[quiet sapphire]

That's just a complicated way to say "i don't want profaner to work with cards that draw more cards"

the only cards that give value to next rounds in FVF are cards that draw more cards

why bring up bomb belt, lazer at all??

[winter palm]

i mean reroll kinda gives insane value with garbo-day and that carries over to the whole game.

but thats a niche case

[fervent kernel]

Or powerful combos that could be used again

[quiet sapphire]

Ruki never said anything about that

[fervent kernel]

Cuz I'm saying that hehe

[quiet sapphire]

i agree you we cant decide what is a powerful combo or not for profaner to copy

[quiet sapphire]

garbo day is debuff card... doesnt affect own hand why bring it up?

[fervent kernel]

Ik! Think that's the main reason we can't rlly change it rather then making it 1 pull or just letting it be

Sure debate day and night what cards should be in or not. But that means if the devs put this in its gonna be heck

[winter palm]

why its such a niche case

[quiet sapphire]

reroll already gives draws you more cards, you know?

even without garbo day on you

[winter palm]

yea

[quiet sapphire]

just seemed irrelevant to bring up

[winter palm]

ok jani 2 cards or 20 cards

[quiet sapphire]

so its ok that bat turret and bomb belt and lazer fence are profaneable?

those cards don't affect next rounds

[winter palm]

yea i think so but its fine if not

[fervent kernel]

hmmmm?

[winter palm]

jani my point this whoooole time has just been that profaner should not profane anything it competes with

do you think it competes with bombbelt?

[quiet sapphire]

Hmmm if its a distinct feature that devs are ready to put to any card, not being able to be profitable then i agree, for example if titan was not profitable it would compete against profaner well

[quiet sapphire]

no but iv been given the idea that the only cards not being able to be profaned are card drawing cards

[quiet sapphire]

no because its profanable

profaner compliments it

[fervent kernel]

cough cough

[winter palm]

at least it seems like you're kind of on the same page.

[quiet sapphire]

even the cards that draw more cards doesnt compete with the profaner... because they will you know.... draw profaner

[winter palm]

they do bc they generate the same amout of value (2 cards)

[quiet sapphire]

there are "value cards" i the game that compete with profaner tho

[quiet sapphire]

but differently costing cards have exponentionally different value

copying a tiny and titan is 4x better than drawing dice and speed

[quiet sapphire]

you cant say profaner and extra cards provide the same value (2 cards)

[winter palm]

value cards and cards that directly compete with profaner

idk how else to put it

[fervent kernel]

https://tenor.com/view/coughing-late-night-with-seth-meyers-sick-choking-cough-gif-20020559

[quiet sapphire]

what card competes with profaner??

[winter palm]

temp value with cards like belt is fine, but can also be removed if the team deems it that way.

[winter palm]

nothing other than more cards as of rn, im just saying that for future cases that generate similar value.

[quiet sapphire]

extra cards don't compete with profaner...

they compliment it

it can draw you the card profaner

everyone runs extra cards and profaner

[winter palm]

im not going to argue about rather or not thats the case, but its still coverd by the fact that its still a value card.

idk why you think it matters if it does

its still a value card

[quiet sapphire]

can you please call value cards just cards thatt draw more cards, or "draw cards"

[quiet sapphire]

you just stated draw cards compete with profaner?

[quiet sapphire]

its mega confusing

[winter palm]

thats not the only case of card economy tho

[quiet sapphire]

card economy is tied to skill not cards themselfs

you can choose not to overspend or overspend

the only cards that effect card economy are draw cards

[quiet sapphire]

what other cards are?

[winter palm]

card theif

[quiet sapphire]

it draws you a card from the enemy hand

[winter palm]

even if you didnt get the card and they were forced to discard it

[quiet sapphire]

its a draw card

[winter palm]

^ it would still be in this case.

[quiet sapphire]

you you used card thief on an empty enemy hand?

it's still a draw card just like the lottery can sometimes fuck you up by not drawing

[winter palm]

well that would be the opposite in that case. thats negitive economy same with not drawing off of lottery.

[quiet sapphire]

the are still used for the purpose of drawing cards

so they are drawing cards

[pale mist]

So, I think I can see Ruki going about a level deeper than what a value card is, into effective value (or forced heavy disad)

Essentially look at Swap

Swap is, functionally, both Disarm and (A weapon card)

There's an argument to be made that a swap in hand is a 2 card value

[quiet sapphire]

ok

[quiet sapphire]

eeewwwww

[winter palm]

yes weapon swap could be cosiderd value

[pale mist]

Now, I think that this is an area that can be very subjective and meta dependent

[winter palm]

it makes for a great example actually

[pale mist]

And so I don't really put a WHOLE lot of stock in it, but it's worth considering if we want a meta snapshot

Yeah swap is the best example

Of a card that is Just two cards

[quiet sapphire]

why not just say its relative value to 3 cost

[pale mist]

Well, because it doesn't have one

For instance

Disarm is like what

3?

[quiet sapphire]

2

haha

[pale mist]

2 then

2 + (whatever weapon you pulled) +hand advantage because you essentially stole their used weapon

What you're getting is a debuff, a buff, and a counter

You can't value it at just card cost, because your value is dependent on the 2 cards it is

but it's 2 cards

[quiet sapphire]

that's the thing its super inconsistent. if you are going against an opponent with no weapons. its - value card

[pale mist]

Most cases of this aren't quite so 1:1 so swap is just the best example

And yes you could swap yourself into a bad weapon but why would you if you have it in hand

Even so

It's still 2 cards

Like even if you give yourself negative value, say you play it in opponent's favor

It's still 2 card effects effectively-- 2 weapon cards, functionally inverting the weapon play

[winter palm]

swap weapon is 2 value because it takes away (-1 card for opponent) and gives you (+1 card for you)

[winter palm]

I would say that this is 100% the case

[pale mist]

I would still say for purpose of being a value card I'd not put it in that category since it doesn't pull you new value for later rounds, BUT I see the argument forr it

[quiet sapphire]

So are you guys saying LAZER fence is 4 card draws value card ahahaha

[pale mist]

Naw not at all

Laser fence's value is giving you poles

[quiet sapphire]

it is by your logic

[quiet sapphire]

it gives you 4 pole cards

+4 cards

[winter palm]

well its situational your opponent needs a weapon for it to work, im fine with it being able to be profaned

[pale mist]

Burn cards and costed actual cards are different things. The effect of the card is poles. The effect of swap is the effects of 2 other cards

[quiet sapphire]

but you just said you want "value cards" to be not profanable

and you just said weapons swap is a crazy "value card"

[winter palm]

again we're going back to temp value

its just for that round

[quiet sapphire]

what if is say tiny is better value than weapons swap

[pale mist]

Again though I personally don't agree with qualifying Swap as a value card, I just think there's a solid argument for considering it just because of the dynamic it presents. Once played, it's a field effect. It's a "value card" in the sense that drawing the card is effectively two cards

That doesn't matter

[quiet sapphire]

how can 1 card be better than 2 card value card

[winter palm]

same case as the "impulse draw"

[pale mist]

Tiny isn't 2 cards when you draw it

[quiet sapphire]

it has more value than 2 "card value" weapon swap

how is that possible

[pale mist]

Mm, but we're pointing to in hand potential

[winter palm]

jani pls

[pale mist]

Swap is an interesting case because it's a value card not at play, but at draw.

[winter palm]

again that's the "impulse draw" case

[pale mist]

Which is why I wouldn't cat it as a traditional "value" card

[quiet sapphire]

yall make it so much more complicatet than it needs to be

swap weapons is 3 cost value speed up is 1 cost value

[pale mist]

Well, I think that isolating these kinds of edge cases is important

[quiet sapphire]

extra cards is whatever the cost sum is

[winter palm]

same here

[pale mist]

The value pip economy isn't anywhere near as meaningful as the cards-in-hand economy

See: Nuke

Etc

[quiet sapphire]

and profaner that copies titan and tiny is 8 cost value

[pale mist]

Yes

[quiet sapphire]

its not" 2 cards "value

its 8 cost calue

[pale mist]

It's both

These are different metrics

And for good reason

[quiet sapphire]

ya gotte stick to one value meter

either cost meter or card meter

[pale mist]

Not at all. A hand of 4 1 costs is likely better than a single 4cost

[winter palm]

we'll say cost not value for that jani

[quiet sapphire]

i dont think so

hot take but speed up + poison + ice + big mag is about the same as 4 cost titan

[pale mist]

Okay, say I have a round with a total 4cost, sticky, gold boira, and... iunno. Speed up?

[quiet sapphire]

id stil take the titan

[pale mist]

What 4 cost do you take to match?

[quiet sapphire]

gold boira is 2 cost...

[pale mist]

yeah I know

[winter palm]

person with mindblowing uses it, i iceblock

i have 3 1 costs they have nothing, yes its better to have the 4 1 cost.

[quiet sapphire]

titan

titan wins easy

[pale mist]

Sum 4. We could swap it to a pairing of (is poison bullets 1?) + smg

Point being the variations in sum4 costs and singlecard 4costs make sum4s better, generally speaking

[quiet sapphire]

SEEE its sooo subjective and card dependant

[pale mist]

Which is why hand economy in terms of draw is important versus just cost

[winter palm]

@quiet sapphire

[quiet sapphire]

titan vs speed up + poison + ice + big mag . titan wins

[quiet sapphire]

nobody uses mind blow on its own

differednt cards in the same cost have different puposes

some better than others

but they are different

[pale mist]

If I have 4 cards in fist to your 1 do you commit titan?

[winter palm]

yea and nobody runs big mag

[quiet sapphire]

you cant just say 4 one costs are better than one 4 cost

[pale mist]

I said likely

[quiet sapphire]

thas why you cant metric by cards amount

[quiet sapphire]

thats why cost metric is better

[winter palm]

its not even the same thing

[pale mist]

If you put together a deck of silent steps clown shoes invis ninja log etc etc

You could make any argument around costs work

The value of having options in hand is independant of how mentally unstable the deck builder is

[quiet sapphire]

thats the issue of balancing those cards dont give off the usual 1 cost value

they should be buffed to give the usual 1 cost value

[pale mist]

How though? They need different maps frankly to work out

[quiet sapphire]

in a perfect balance, every 1 cost card has a value of around 1 cost. every 2 cost card gives a value of around 2 cost

[quiet sapphire]

they are flawed by desing

[pale mist]

It's not that they dont propose value its that they dont push the stat game directly

[quiet sapphire]

it because they don't give off the usual value the other 1 cost cards give

[pale mist]

Except by that logic every like-costed card expenditure has even odds

But it doesnt; the very nature of having diverse effects necessitates power and weakness areas

The way you mitigate that is having options-- cards in hand

[quiet sapphire]

every like-costed card should give off around the same value but in different purposes

[quiet sapphire]

value in different playstyles, purposes,

[pale mist]

I agree with that, but asymmetry means perfection of balance is impossible, and having more options is always preferable to not

[quiet sapphire]

that's how cost limited deck builders work

[winter palm]

see thats were we mostly disagree, cards are allowed to be better than others.

[pale mist]

So I would take the 4 1s over the 1 4

[quiet sapphire]

1 cost card is allowed to be way better than another 1 cost card?

why is sticky allowed to be better than a regular bomb ??

[pale mist]

Hmm thats difficult because what is way better ykno

Is niche fundamentally bad?

[winter palm]

big mag will never be as good as an ice block or a sticky bomb

[quiet sapphire]

there is no place where regular bomb is better than sticky

[pale mist]

Those questions go further than the scope of valuation of options in hand

Round corners

[quiet sapphire]

then buff big mag

simple

[pale mist]

Big mag just needs to directly interact with small mag

Whether played first or second

[quiet sapphire]

yeah, that means buffing it

[pale mist]

Such that they cancel

[winter palm]

and thats why i disagree, buffing it to the point were its just as good could never happen

[quiet sapphire]

it could, simple do this

[pale mist]

It could just by making its coubterpart not universally better

[quiet sapphire]

simply make it good counter against small mag

[winter palm]

ok sure fix it to counter small mag, but thats besides the point

[quiet sapphire]

its an injustice to the other underpowered card if there's just a better version of it for the same cost.

thats bad desing

[winter palm]

other 1's are still better

[quiet sapphire]

it's ok for the same cost cards to be worse at something than other cards but then they need to better in something else

[pale mist]

I think in varied effects things will be more generally applicable, read better, than others. I don't think that statted effects should be a significant area of variance for that though

[winter palm]

if it made your mag infinate i'd still probably never take it over other options

[quiet sapphire]

pffff

i would

[pale mist]

Really??? Infinimag sounds sick

[quiet sapphire]

infinite ak and brasshopper and katana here i go

[quiet sapphire]

infinite mag is insane!!

[winter palm]

ok what are you replacing

[quiet sapphire]

you know poison, or more accu

id replace ice block too

infinite shotgun and punch r

[winter palm]

personally stopped running those two cards alrdy. but replacing ice block seems crazy

[quiet sapphire]

BRO ionfinite akimbo aon any gun

make your akimbo infinite

[pale mist]

I don't even run ice lol

[quiet sapphire]

i dont ever run ice either

[pale mist]

Which is funny since I mained evie

In paladins

[quiet sapphire]

infinite akimbo would go CRAAAAZYYYY

[pale mist]

(/kinessa)

[winter palm]

oh no

[quiet sapphire]

stopped running it looong ago when fire ticks were buffed

havent played ice in months

[winter palm]

how do you two answer tinman or shrink?

[quiet sapphire]

skill

[pale mist]

I want smokes to snuff fire

[quiet sapphire]

just bomb belt shrink like a man

and tin man can hurt but just go behind cover and back off or nuke

[pale mist]

I answer tin with tin

Or dodging

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[pale mist]

Or pk

[winter palm]

ice and then tin out, that way you get value they dont.

you can also just ice to reload

[quiet sapphire]

i don't like ice cus it dies instantly to fire

[winter palm]

if you want infinimag

[quiet sapphire]

that's just one reload man

[winter palm]

so does tin and titan fire kills all

[quiet sapphire]

movement counters fire

with ice you cant move

[winter palm]

you cant move in titan or tinman ether

[quiet sapphire]

i dont use tin or titan either

[quiet sapphire]

you can with speed up

or energy

[winter palm]

jani uses no cards 😎

[quiet sapphire]

only skill😎

don't you know i always play antimeta

i dont have a single deck with tin or ice

and titan i only have for marge

oh wait i think my sable deck has tin

[winter palm]

heartless?

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[quiet sapphire]

only in Marge deck

pretty ass if not going for space

[quiet sapphire]

i think is should take tin man from my sable deck too

[quiet sapphire]

i actually consider ice as a niche card

like B or C tier

man, infinite mag should be added as a 3 cost card

then infinite mag condept will be balanced

it just combos too much with akimbo and some weapons

Infinite mag laika 🥰

[winter palm]

actually now that i think about it itd be broken on sable

[pale mist]

I'm kinda down for infinite mag

Counter sable LOL

[quiet sapphire]

mmmmhhm

[quiet sapphire]

ya gotta think a bit

[quiet sapphire]

also op with sable

infinite block

[pale mist]

Functionally that only moves the bar for fk and smg

[winter palm]

if sable didnt exist id say that it should remain 1 cost.

[quiet sapphire]

no way

[pale mist]

And duos i guess

[winter palm]

ok im exaggerating a little

[quiet sapphire]

Its noticeable

[winter palm]

id hope so

[waxen pendant]

🔪

[winter palm]

Hi Onion

[quiet sapphire]

The point is, big mag could be buffed to be the same value as ice or sticky

Right now its underwhelming

[waxen pendant]

hihi

[quiet sapphire]

Oh, hi our mighty thread creator

We all hail you for creating the world we live in

[waxen pendant]

you truly live here now

i just come by every now and then to tap on the glass

[winter palm]

Jani defiantly lives here

hope he pays rent

[quiet sapphire]

Noooo

Theres no rent

Its public space

[quiet sapphire]

I do an honest mans work here

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/saw-heroine-pit-furry-gif-12782227454109204355

[quiet sapphire]

Compiling the communitys suggested changes and trialing them out

[waxen pendant]

to think this thread was once concise

[winter palm]

good times

[waxen pendant]

incredible what you've done with the place

the curtains are a nice touch too

[quiet sapphire]

Oh i keep it concise with summarys

[quiet sapphire]

Ahh those are nothing

Check this out

[waxen pendant]

oh no

[quiet sapphire]

Card value changes

Venom eater buff: from 4 heal per poison tic to 6 heal
Sly shooter: from 3 cost to 2 cost and applies to both teammates, back shot area widened and footprints fixed
Present nerf: from 1 cost to 2 cost/or add more weaponless card combo packages
Bear trap buff: make it pink and function like a trap category card
Nuke nerf: from 0 cost to 1 cost AND fire cant dmg while in map transition
profaner nerf: now a legendary rarity and copies only one card (can be 3 cost then) OR nerf to 5 cost
Dale buff: back shot area widened or give him silent steps extra passive and footprints fixed
Tin man nerf: from 2 cost to 3 cost
invisible hand nerf: has a timer of 25 secs
Deep fryer: fix shooting through walls
Reroll nerf: gives only one card extra after rerolling and cannot be profaned

updated list

Have i missed anything?

Speak up if i have missed something or disagree on something

[winter palm]

yea

dale and sly needs the footprints fixed aswell

[quiet sapphire]

Ok ill add that

[winter palm]

and i still dont agree with the venom eater buff but maybe it can be a placeholder till they rework it.

[quiet sapphire]

Yep

[pale mist]

I just think we need better ways to self poison

[winter palm]

1 more thing landmine needs to be nerfed and have like a 1 second arm period, but it can have a compinsation buff and given the bear trap treatment and turned into a trap.

[pale mist]

Oh bear trap is hidden in rack now?

Thank god

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah everyone would like that buff to beartrap

[near sleet]

also arguably intangibility for nuke, stage hazards can still do dmg but is minor but frustrating, you can trap someone off trucks or to get hit by train, this is arguably skill testing excpet when you get hit by the train b4 the first sfx is called

[quiet sapphire]

Should mine be a trap card?

Hmm

[quiet sapphire]

I think they already do no?

[pale mist]

I'm a little sad that lava floor stops rising

[quiet sapphire]

In nuke its too low tbh

[pale mist]

I first played it on island and was so hopeful

Because it's so so fun on island

[quiet sapphire]

Have you seen musem lava?

[pale mist]

No lol

[quiet sapphire]

It goes to top floor tabled

[winter palm]

cards that outright counter an archtype (bombs, fire, poison) is just bad disign because there isnt much skill expression in it and its just boring for gameplay.

[quiet sapphire]

Thets the only playable area

[quiet sapphire]

I agree

Bu then we need to give same treatment to shicc skin and pyro and rework them too

[pale mist]

I suppose but also I think viper pit is its own cool archetype

[quiet sapphire]

And thats too much rwworki g for devs

[winter palm]

pyro was the worst offender but it has a timer now so i guess its fine,

[pale mist]

Like we just need more support, not to remove the cards

[quiet sapphire]

Its still like 200healing

[pale mist]

It's so much healing

[quiet sapphire]

Compared to venoms like max 40healing

[pale mist]

It's better than every other healing card in the game

And it doubles as a near iframe card

[winter palm]

ik its crazy healing, but your not completely fked if you have a flamethrower

[pale mist]

With how fast it regens

[quiet sapphire]

You arent completely fucked if you play poison bullets againt venpmn either

[pale mist]

100%

[quiet sapphire]

Venom counter against poison bullets is so minimal

[winter palm]

your right the card is just useless.

[pale mist]

Which is fine??

[quiet sapphire]

Yupp

[quiet sapphire]

Thats why its needs a buff

[winter palm]

id perfer a rework

[quiet sapphire]

Even 6 hp per decong will be trash

[quiet sapphire]

I feel like if devs rework venom, they shoudl rework thicc and pyro too

[pale mist]

I just wish it was a minimum of 4, but mirrored the poison damage you would have taken

So poison cloud would be +7/t

Etc

[quiet sapphire]

That woukd be fine too, just a hard thing to execute

[pale mist]

I also think we need more sources of tox

Like toxic pools, etx

[near sleet]

no you get killed by train

[winter palm]

better to expand the archtype than hinder it. its alrdy so small

[pale mist]

I dont think pyro/venom eater are inherently bad

I think thtat with proper support they could be cool archetype cards

[winter palm]

theres only 2-3 poison cards

[near sleet]

i think the issue with these two cards is that as ruki has pointed out they are inherently bad designs in the current state of the game so you are finding external solutions to empower them which is not a solution for the current game and isnt reasonable to ask the devs

[pale mist]

I really want poison bomb to be a gadget

[near sleet]

unless we rly do get siaro back i dont expect them to quickly printy a bunch of good poisons

so either its buffed to being good enough that everyone uses it and then everyone stops using poisons altogether execpt maybe myk

or we just accepts that its shit

maybe buff it to 6 health

and no one plays it anyways

maybe you swap to a deck running it mid set vs myk at best

a rework isnt rly going to "work" unless they become completly diff cards like buffing dmg instead

so just give venom a timer (for consistency) and buff the heal and call it a day

[winter palm]

yea thats another thing buffing it does nothing for the card, its still so niche till they make more poison cards.

[near sleet]

what is deep fryer?

[winter palm]

its the flamethrower

[near sleet]

oih gotcha

i wonder if there is difficulty associated with the thru walls thing

cuz moly has always felt inconsistent to me

[winter palm]

oh yea

there is rng involved with the karrotov

[near sleet]

i can actually see a world where the thru walls is intentional and forces the op to push you but wed need to see a range and dmg nerf most likely?

its weird

bc i dont think the flamethrower is that bad in 1v1 even thru walls

its mostly a prob in 2v2 bc you can just bomb rush and rack up so much dmg on two people at once on suicide

[pale mist]

Through walls is deeply unreasonable lol

[near sleet]

eh

its short range, your spreading short lasting fire

[pale mist]

I got through floored by it during tournament

[near sleet]

im not saying it isnt a problem

im saying i can see a world where the mechanic is intentional and keep it balanced

if you take that mechanic away

it becomes a 100% worse boomstick

[pale mist]

Disagree

[near sleet]

rly?

[pale mist]

Completely different aim style for one, different interactions, different priority

Collat potential, etc

More forgiving

[near sleet]

you havnt descirbed a better weapon

youve just described a different one

boomstick is higher dmg, better range

collat potential is arguable

i just suspect that at 3 people stop running it in tourney

but at 2 its busted (everyone will run it)

[winter palm]

a good handfull of people did disagree with nerfing profaner.
and if its nerfed I personally still say only make it 5 cost.

[pale mist]

Also on profaner, card rarity only hurts newer players

No reason to bump rarity imo

[near sleet]

the reason to bump rarity is so it doesnt upgrade

right now base lvl gives you one card

and lvl 2 gives you two

[winter palm]

rarity change is fine, making legendary actually makes it easy to max out.

[near sleet]

the balance is saying only 1 ever

[near sleet]

also rarity change is better for new players

[pale mist]

I don't think rarity and upgrade are correlated? Isn't there a lot of 1 tier max in lower rarities?

[quiet sapphire]

Its not that short range

[near sleet]

i was arguing to shorten it

[quiet sapphire]

I mean half of the whole sercer did?

[near sleet]

no?

[winter palm]

they are as far as i can tell

[pale mist]

What rarity is lava floor

[near sleet]

legend

[winter palm]

legendary

[winter palm]

no?

[near sleet]

okay i have a wierd new balance idea

what if the glass wall you see each other through on spawn in museo cant be shot thru with phantom bullets?

i saw the like eye thing they added whcih is part of arg stuff but at first i wondered if it was like a magic "seal" that doesnt let them pass

only for that specefic wall

it just got me thinkin

[winter palm]

but thats part of the fun or running Phantom bullets

[cedar compass]

You’d be introducing situations where a card’s primary feature simply doesn’t work

[near sleet]

so kind of yeah

but only in that one specefic instance

make a sign that shows the card and the like circle with a strikethru, make it a pocheeky joke

i understand the arguement for poor design whcih is fair

[cedar compass]

But even if it’s the only instance, you’re introducing an inconsistency with a card’s effect which basically changes it

Phantom Bullets*

*Doesn’t work through X walls

[near sleet]

sure

if communicated to players

yes that is what im saying

dont have it on the card desciption just make sure players understand on the map

maybe i overestimate how unhealthy that situation is

this is more of an idea than a change i specefically want for the game

[winter palm]

ok

why tho?

[near sleet]

i think it can be handled well without seriously harming the game design as a whole

[near sleet]

because using it in the first second of the match and already having lined up multiple headshots is extremely powerful with little input or counterplay

[near sleet]

but this still^

[winter palm]

theres counterplay, also the card is 3 cost and very niche as is

[quiet sapphire]

74/74 in the voting

[winter palm]

thats not for nerfing goofball

[quiet sapphire]

Can be interperted as

[near sleet]

saying that the card is not played is not a design arguement necessarily

what counterplay am i missing tho?

[winter palm]

plus ik youre the one pushing ppl to vote and told koutu take make the vote in the 1st place

[quiet sapphire]

If something is not right for tourney it probably needs change in the game balance too

[cedar compass]

I was also pushing for the vote to happen in the first place

[quiet sapphire]

Whats wrong with that

And i personally know at least 10 peopld who agree strongly to nerf it

Not a handful

[near sleet]

it is for people who clearly see issues with the card

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

And if half of the community sees that theres an issue with the card, thats should say something

[near sleet]

what counterplay am i missing, im not saying its an instant death but free 60+ health

[quiet sapphire]

Very true

Clown shoes is super rare and bad but should be reworked too

[winter palm]

ice blck or nuke are easy ones

[cedar compass]

Ice Block, Tin Man, Nuke (stall out the timer), however these are all “on reaction” counters

[quiet sapphire]

????

Ice block to counter flamethrower?

[winter palm]

were not talking about flame lol

[quiet sapphire]

Ah

Sorry

[pale mist]

i mean we are talking about through walling museum

and flamethrower also does that

[cedar compass]

What’s confusing about what they said?

[quiet sapphire]

Ah

[near sleet]

so frame one reacting by wasting a valuable card on a shitty interaction thast still puts you in disadvantage? and is rng bc you have to draw those cards

i dont see that as counterplay at all

it has to be so ubiquitous or not require a card

[quiet sapphire]

The only thing i agree is that the museums spawns are too close to eatchother through glass

[cedar compass]

Summarizes it appropriately, lol
I think we all just have Stockholm syndrome thinking it’s fine

[pale mist]

Every time someone goes "X card counters this" it's that rng off card draw position. No argument involving hand counters is free of this

[winter palm]

your right you should just stand and do nothing

[quiet sapphire]

Well said

[pale mist]

Phantom bullets on spawn on that map is disgusting but also changing the game to be less consistent isn't the play. Adjust the spawns imo

[near sleet]

again this isnt like a plague against the game, i just think its a specefic interaction that is wildly unhealthy and was considering a way to fix it

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

[cedar compass]

Move the players to the base of each ramp (the ones that lead to the top floor), so they have the option to go down or not

[near sleet]

yes bc the people who play this game arent card game players

[winter palm]

the only bad spawn in the game is trucks when you immidatly can shoot eachother

[pale mist]

Agreed with Jayden that's what I was thinking

The cross section on their side of the 3 ramps

Sit them in the middle of it so they can go up, left, right down, etc

[near sleet]

no theatre where you can immediatly see the one underneath, nuke spawns

[pale mist]

Most options off spawn, most outplay potential

[winter palm]

or i mean one person is facing away

[pale mist]

no more phantom bullet issue

[near sleet]

this actually isnt a bad idea

[cedar compass]

Nothing like getting frame 1’ed Sniped in the chest on good ol’ Trucks

[pale mist]

ttruck you

:C

[cedar compass]

Terrible map

[near sleet]

sure

[pale mist]

is trucks ass: yes or no

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

[cedar compass]

Does No Jump exist?

Yes
Then Trucks is bad

[near sleet]

i think seeing eachother on spawn is core to the map of museo which is why i favored the other map change, but maybe there is a spawn poition that accounts for this

[near sleet]

i mean kinda same for island

i think thats a no jump problem more than trucks

(im not defending trucks here)

[quiet sapphire]

True

[pale mist]

(we could do the thing where nojump only gets rid of 1 jump additively so that you can preempt it with double jump)

(pls I swear yall this is a good change it would make nj so much less toxic)

[quiet sapphire]

The problem with that is yhat it buffs moose a ton

Having nojump in deck and going against moose will be ass

[pale mist]

I've still seen no convincing argument for why this card disproportionately deleting moose is reasonable

When no other character has that happen to their trait card

[cedar compass]

If you play No Jump and can’t hit a single jump Moose, then maybe you need to buy Aimlabs or Kovaak

[pale mist]

Especially not at the expense of the NJ/DJ dynamic being awful

[cedar compass]

Explaining to people why you never can play Double Jump unless their No Jumps are gone is ridiculous

[quiet sapphire]

I thats the thing, playing nojump on moose will only make moose onejumpable

[pale mist]

Especially not in a state of the game where you can pop NJ 4x in a set of 5

[quiet sapphire]

2 cost to make double jump jump is asss value

[quiet sapphire]

Well thats profaner issue

[near sleet]

you can make the arguemnt that cards delete sables

[pale mist]

?

[cedar compass]

Disarm

[near sleet]

or swap

[pale mist]

I said sables are only interactable with cards

[cedar compass]

They’re talking about Disarm

[near sleet]

or regalo

[pale mist]

I see

[cedar compass]

Swap Weapons has it’s own problems

[winter palm]

exactly

[near sleet]

i think its fine tho to have a single card that counters someone slightly more maybe? thats fine

the issue is just the card in general being good

not how it affects moose

[pale mist]

Disarm/swap are as close as it gets, but the value proposition is still there-- Getting rid of disarm is super important for 0 cost

It's fine to have a card counter someone more

The worse part is again

NJ/DJ is a sHIT dynamic

You can say NJ for 2 is shit value if moose can keep a jump but I hard disagree because it still hits everyone in the game

It will always gen value

DJ however

Is literally unplayable in current state of the game except reactively

Completely useless

[near sleet]

corect

[pale mist]

It's a dead card

[cedar compass]

And realistically, even if you had Card Profaner, you’re not going to try and pull Double Jump with it

[pale mist]

Again the people saying NJ not hitting Moose by literally deleting them as a character is too strong I think are simply wrong. Nobody has been able to give any reason why this would upset any of the actual meta picks

Even slightly

[quiet sapphire]

Why not

[near sleet]

its poor design

not about strength

if they made it consistent with additive dj sure

[pale mist]

How is it poor design to make this interaction consistent? It's poor design that it ignores the trait as if it wasn't there

[quiet sapphire]

You can do anything with wonderfull profaner

[pale mist]

If I less acc DJ Newton

[near sleet]

it currently is consistent

[pale mist]

It doesn't delete their acc first

[cedar compass]

Sure you can 4x Clown Shoes

[pale mist]

And then less acc them

If I rubber bullets spike it doesn't set them to base damage first

And then rubber them

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah and thats op too

[pale mist]

If I invis hand Duck

[quiet sapphire]

Id have to throw my headset out thewindow

Insane value

[pale mist]

Or thorns them

[near sleet]

we get it

[pale mist]

They can still use their cards

Clearly not

So why then is it fine for the DJ/NJ pairing to overwrite each other completely

It's ridiculous

[earnest violet]

Honestly thorns card is stupid, why punish you for using the whole ass point of the game

[cedar compass]

Also, Thorns reveals your position

So that’s cool

[quiet sapphire]

Hmmm

[near sleet]

yeah but that feels like unintended consequence

its frustrating but fine

so does poison and low health

[cedar compass]

Right, that is more for intended visual feedback that the card is working (like hey, they took damage)

[near sleet]

im not defending thorns i was one of the 💯 s

[near sleet]

which i actually like that the game has

[quiet sapphire]

You are almost winning me over

[winter palm]

it takes 2-3 cards for it to give the same value as a a health down

[quiet sapphire]

Would it be bad for moose to be softbuffed?

[earnest violet]

And? It still punishes you for literally making use of the game's whole gimmick.

[pale mist]

At the least I'm glad you're considering it. I just want it to work like every other character

[earnest violet]

Might aswell remove all cards then! Make the card effects be "drops" on the map!

Who cares!

[cedar compass]

What is the current meta on ladder? Double Stevie/Myk/Marge ?

[winter palm]

not really as deep of a punish as your making it out to be

[quiet sapphire]

Now that i think about it, buffing moose softly woulsnt be that bad

[earnest violet]

It is lmao.

[pale mist]

That's pretty much what I've been tryna say yeah
I think the DJ/NJ thing improving game health would be a much nicer impact than anything moose could have on the meta

[earnest violet]

Look I know you're a mod (and the game is good dont get me wrong) but you're hella bootlicking terrible design

[quiet sapphire]

Double stevie, double Myk, double Marge or Stable (Stevie Sable)

[earnest violet]

makes game about using cards
punishes the player for using cards
What the fu-

[winter palm]

?

[near sleet]

i dont necessarily disagree with you about the change, i just don think "making it work like every other character" is a valid arguement, no jump is different than less acc or invis lol, but i support the additive change you propse

i assumed we all did honestly

nto as a buff fro moose

but as a nerf for nj

[earnest violet]

You keep saying stuff about cards that obviously are terribly designed are "good actually"

[quiet sapphire]

Removind one dimentioness from the game to make it healthier

[earnest violet]

Please explain what part of Thorned Cards are good

[near sleet]

(still not enough bc like always it relies on drawing the card, nj duration should be nerfed but yes)

[near sleet]

it helps me win games 🙃

[earnest violet]

This game is good but like 80% of cards feel unbalanced

[quiet sapphire]

Making it -1 wouls nerf it in a healthy way

[quiet sapphire]

Thats what iv been saying for years

[near sleet]

thorned cards into profaner gives me two free rounds 🙃

[quiet sapphire]

And some people say its is fine

[near sleet]

yes it nerfs it healthily i just dont think its enough is what im saying

[cedar compass]

I watch those games back by the way, the ones you linked me yesterday (2x Myk versus Stevie+Sable). Looking at all the rounds, I boiled down the reasons you guys lost rounds were pretty much because of one, or a combination of the following:

• You got Silence + No Jump and were promptly rushed down by Sable
• You got 2x Slow Reload, Small Mag or Move Slower
• Nuke spawns teleported you guys away from one another that you could be focused down separately
• Karrotov + Nuke

[near sleet]

and they havce from the begining

[earnest violet]

Yea totally a fair card combination! Right @winter palm ?!

[quiet sapphire]

Nice analysis, all bs unhealthy reasons

[pale mist]

lmao yeah

[earnest violet]

I know and I agree

[pale mist]

we 3x small mag'd someone the other day

It felt

so dirty

those poor bastards

[winter palm]

are you ok?

[quiet sapphire]

Thats why im harsh in take this channel seriously

[earnest violet]

Who cares about small mag, just use slow reload and it takes fucking 50 seconds to reload

[pale mist]

you have to drip feed them 1 bullet at a time

it's water torture but ingame

[earnest violet]

I'm proving the point that you bootlick lol, aka you think the most unbalanced card combos is okay and perfectly balanced and intended

[quiet sapphire]

I also do because devs have showsn leniansy to listen to balance suggestions

[earnest violet]

meanwhile its actually horrible game design, as a fact

[winter palm]

dorrie you need to chill

[earnest violet]

Not even to be mean, its just true

[winter palm]

not even calling it good disign

[earnest violet]

I am chill. I am just stating the obvious (that somehow gets past you)

[winter palm]

no you're really not

[quiet sapphire]

I agree with you but we do try to keep it civil

[earnest violet]

I am lol

[quiet sapphire]

Even tho some people dont unddrstand healthy balance 👀

[pale mist]

:o

accusation

am shook

[winter palm]

just calling barbs bad game disign proposing no changes for it and accusing me of approving the disign just bc i say its only the same value as hp down aftuer using like 3 cards.

just having an unfair attk on me for no reason

just not cool

[pale mist]

That's fair ya
Thorns is weird because it's in a similar place as some other just guaranteed value cards where

You can build a deck around hand hate and things

But that's less useful than just

building goodstuff and "eh I'll throw this in to be annoying"

[winter palm]

yea thats fair

[quiet sapphire]

Hmm, its ok to state that some cards are super unhealthy without providing a fix for it instantly

[cedar compass]

@quiet sapphire
Card Profaner aggravates all these situations mind you