Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[quiet sapphire]

Only banned in competetive play

[near sleet]

Exactly^

We want it gone in a competitive community tourney

[quiet sapphire]

Like our tourney

[near sleet]

We aren’t talking about the game as a whole here

[winter palm]

i said it was fine ether way

[quiet sapphire]

You said it doesnt matter

[winter palm]

it doesnt

[quiet sapphire]

But it does

It matters if we want the tourney to be fair

[winter palm]

its not really removing rng

[quiet sapphire]

It is

[near sleet]

What

[quiet sapphire]

Its lessening rng

Lessening

[winter palm]

it gives you more to work with your deck, and people would still be on equal playing field

[quiet sapphire]

They would not

The team that draws an early profaner has advantagw

[near sleet]

Each individual round would be more affected by rng creating a less competitive environment

[winter palm]

there will still be a meta of best cards

changes nothing

[near sleet]

It doesn’t matter that everyone can play it

[quiet sapphire]

Thats ok

[near sleet]

Also best meta isn’t not everyone playing the exact same deck

Next to 100% of players would be playing profaner if it’s allowed

[quiet sapphire]

But for the tourney it woud be way more healthy if it was banned

[near sleet]

That’s what we call a centralizing card and an unhealthy meta

It isn’t bomb meta, it’s everyone playing the single best card in every deck

[winter palm]

i can agree with that but profaner doesnt define how a deck works, there will still be weapon decks, decks around debuffs and decks around turrets, etc, etc

[quiet sapphire]

Yeha and the meta decks are fine but not profaner

[near sleet]

No that’s the issue

It doesn’t define a deck

So literally every deck will run it

[quiet sapphire]

Thats also means everuone run profsner

[winter palm]

all im saying is removing profaner will not change who wins or not.
I dont think so anyway.

[quiet sapphire]

It will

[near sleet]

A “best deck” will always form, this isn’t that, even shit decks will run profanity

[winter palm]

there will be rng in decks always

[quiet sapphire]

It will affect the gameplay alot

[quiet sapphire]

Thats a healthy amount of rng

[near sleet]

It is effectively “necessary” at high level play and it will introduce more rng to individual matches

[quiet sapphire]

Profanaer brigs too much rng to the table

[quiet sapphire]

There will be healthy amount of rng in decks if profaner is banned

[near sleet]

I’m gonna play my flip a coin win or lose instantly card, (it’s fair cuz rng is unavoidable)

[winter palm]

again we can remove some rng, or keep it, its fine ether way.

[quiet sapphire]

But it does matter

I guarantee you many matches have been decided by profaner rng, byt it drawing early or copying the best or worst cards

[winter palm]

ik what the best deck would be if profaner got removed, js.

and im sure you know too
\

[quiet sapphire]

Something more interesting 100% sure

[quiet sapphire]

What do you mean? all decks run profaner lol

[winter palm]

nah it'd be pretty unfun to play against.

[quiet sapphire]

I mean taking away profaner hurts Kala more than others

You get to play less red arrpegios

Its a fact

[winter palm]

extra cards exists

and you did know

[quiet sapphire]

Everyone runs extra cards too

[winter palm]

you knowing kinda proves my point

[quiet sapphire]

And im saying it would hurt her the most

[winter palm]

will it be more consistent than her tho?

[quiet sapphire]

Kala deck alrrady runs both extra and profaner

Those are no excuses must have cards on any deck

[quiet sapphire]

Because i made the deck and knew what you implyed

[winter palm]

i dont think everyone playing marg would be fun

[quiet sapphire]

How does banning profsner affect marge playrate

Again... bannins profaner hurts Kala most

[winter palm]

because she has the most consistant deck after

[quiet sapphire]

She will bet to play less red arrpegiis

[winter palm]

she's less reliant on what the specific card is than other characters, she just cares that it's red.

[quiet sapphire]

Banning profaner will lessen Marge playrate

[winter palm]

other characters will like some specific cards back

[quiet sapphire]

Exactly why profaner is extra good on her, so banning profsner will hurt kala most

It doesnt matter what red card you get to copy

Copyig 2 random red card is great on kala

Soooo

[winter palm]

wasnt the main complaint getting combos back?

[quiet sapphire]

Kala has red combos only

[winter palm]

with any red cards you can get from any value card, like extra cards, reroll, or lottery.

[quiet sapphire]

And staking in one round

[near sleet]

Getting them back RANDOMLY

[quiet sapphire]

And 100 cpnsistancy on early profaner draws

[quiet sapphire]

Kala will bet to play less red cards when theres no profaner

[cedar compass]

Thank the lord

[winter palm]

she doesnt care about getting cards back she just cares about getting more red cards. it doenst need to be with profaner specifically

[quiet sapphire]

Whats the confusion?

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the thiiig

Profaner gives you also just MORE red cards

[near sleet]

But profaner does that? It gives her reds?

What card is she playing to get more reds instead of profaner?

[winter palm]

im aware, but it can be replaced with a diffrent value card like lottery is my point.

[near sleet]

Why won’t she just play both?

[quiet sapphire]

And lottery is wayyy worse at
giving you more red cards

[near sleet]

Waaaaaaay worse

Unimaginably worse

[quiet sapphire]

It can ve 0 cards or only one

[near sleet]

Bc even if it garunteed you a red it would be random and not one you decided was good enough to play in your deck

Even lottery + new hand interrupts your order, profaner can be used start of round to garuntee 3 reds in a row

[winter palm]

yea and? i thought your argument was it would impact her the most, that's farr from the case, it impacts others more.

[near sleet]

What?

[winter palm]

other characters want strong cards like srink or mindblowing back

marg just uses to get back 2 1 cost red cards

i dont see that being more impactful

not in the least

[quiet sapphire]

And thatd as powerfull as h
Getting tiny back because of arrpegio

[near sleet]

That’s her whole thing tho

[quiet sapphire]

Because she gets more bouncy bullets from pulling 2 reds back

Thats her gameplan

[near sleet]

Mind blow and shrink aren’t integral or core to other characters the way playing reds is to her

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitty-cute-cursed-gif-24122218

[winter palm]

you guys are not looking at the opposite spectrum of if profaner is banned.

who will be at the top

[near sleet]

Yes it’s weaker on her because she plays bad cards but it hurts her more bc she has to play those

[quiet sapphire]

You are not

[quiet sapphire]

Stevie prob

[near sleet]

Why does it matter?

I want the card gone regardless

[spark jungle]

Nerf Stevie and everyone will run red Margarita

[winter palm]

at the end of the day it doesnt matter most skilled player will still win.

[quiet sapphire]

Less rng in matches thats the important thing

[winter palm]

win without red marg

[quiet sapphire]

Bannig profanerd neffs Marge way more than stevie

[spark jungle]

Not what I mean

[quiet sapphire]

?

[spark jungle]

People wanted to remove Stevie supremacy and we got a worse result lol

So as Ruki said, removing Profaner maybe opens the door to one more broken combo since you get 4 points back to add other cards

[quiet sapphire]

Ye but we talking about profaner

[winter palm]

nvm im tired

do w/e feels best

[quiet sapphire]

Nothing will be as broken as profsner man

[near sleet]

If that’s the case why aren’t players doing that now?

[cedar compass]

I'm catching up on the messages right now, so let me just review the logic here:

• If Card Profaner is banned, then Marge gets nerfed because she can't replay double red on demand if she played some previously.
• Without Marge present, everyone will just rotate to Stevie is the concern because there is no check on him besides a mirror?

If I'm following wrong then please do correct me, I was Helldiving

[spark jungle]

Because Profaner is better in most cases

But if you don't have to worry about anybody running Profaner, then it changes

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah thats good, less profaner rng in matches

Thats the main point

[spark jungle]

You better not be chatting while fighting for democracy

[near sleet]

That’s still better than profaner bc profaner is better

[near sleet]

lol

[cedar compass]

I'm in between drops, don't tell on me

[quiet sapphire]

Whatever worked best before Marge

Maybe stevie sable, maybe double myk

Whatever

[winter palm]

Im telling

[quiet sapphire]

Most important thign is profaner nerfed

[cedar compass]

Actually steam server maintenance is preventing us from grouping up pff

[quiet sapphire]

You want us to win without playign double red kala?

We won 10 matches in a row againt 2nd place with double myks

[winter palm]

do whatever works jani Im tired

[quiet sapphire]

In the showgames stream

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah me too

Gn gtg to morning shift

[cedar compass]

I might say something polarizing, but the ruleset should be:

• No Card Profaner
• No Double Characters
• Losers pick map w/ people being unable to choose a map they previously won on ('Dave's Stupid Rule')

[quiet sapphire]

All im saying the votes are importanr

This vote

[winter palm]

would be interesting to see no double characters

[near sleet]

Idk abt the no double characters, I think it would be cool and fun idk that it’s necessary

Cool for build diversity tho

[quiet sapphire]

Im working on implementing the 3rd rule

[near sleet]

I like the 3rd rule a LOT actually

[quiet sapphire]

Stevie sable would dominate then maybe

But definetly a fun format to try

[near sleet]

Maybe?

[near sleet]

Marge, Stevie too?

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

[near sleet]

Even if that was the top dog we would see more people playing unique builds either way

[quiet sapphire]

Maybe ill set up a vote on no doubles too

We will see

[cedar compass]

I just like build diversity

It's called Friends versus Friends, not One Friend versus Himself

[quiet sapphire]

It wouldnt hur it too much

Many chars are similar

[near sleet]

I thinks that’s what Jayden was saying

[quiet sapphire]

Limiting it kinda hurts it

But not too much

[near sleet]

Actually while y’all are here, different topic entirely but I’m curious how the community feels about venom eater?

[spark jungle]

Stevie and Myk

😎

[near sleet]

Like rly bad but better than pyro?

[quiet sapphire]

Poopoo ass

[winter palm]

Juicy debate everyone 🥩
fun stuff

[near sleet]

Oh but its gotta be better than pyro (which is also doodoo)

[quiet sapphire]

5x worse than pyro

[near sleet]

Rly?

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[near sleet]

For the flamethrower counter?

Why?

[winter palm]

bad

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah but you usually use pyro to get ton of healing from own karrotow

[near sleet]

Okay fair

[winter palm]

poison is rare, wasted card slot

[quiet sapphire]

Venomn eater roxic bomb is 5x worse than pyro karrotow

[near sleet]

That’s just so expensive but that is more until than venom eater

Here’s my follow up tho

If venom eater goes to 0 like nuke and rng bomb

Then will someone play it

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh

[near sleet]

I think it’s still bad

But I could see fringe use

[spark jungle]

Let's make all cards 0 😎

[fervent kernel]

No more 0 costs

[quiet sapphire]

If nuke gets nerfed to 1 cost maybe

[near sleet]

It should be

[winter palm]

thats funny bc i said before id never run it even if it was 0

[quiet sapphire]

Al song as we dont have more than 2 0 costs

[near sleet]

Nuke?

[fervent kernel]

Hmmm. That night be goodie

[quiet sapphire]

Everyonen runs nuke

[fervent kernel]

Nuke nerf when

[near sleet]

Oh I’m

Ik*

Nuke is BUSTED at 0

But I think that’s “okay”

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah so venom to be 0 instead of nuke would be fine

[near sleet]

Bc it’s way more healthy as a counter card than something by like swap weapons

[quiet sapphire]

Still will be busted as 1 cost

[near sleet]

That’s what I’m saying, it makes sense for niche counter cards to give you the deckbuilding boost

[quiet sapphire]

It was originally a 3 cost

[near sleet]

Ofc ofc

I do agree with you

[winter palm]

nuke has allot of utility.

[near sleet]

4 I thought?

[quiet sapphire]

Ye

[quiet sapphire]

3 i think

[near sleet]

Nuke isn’t a niche counter card tho

It’s a “universal” counter card

So it can go to 1 easy

[cedar compass]

Honestly, with Card Profaner, I feel like they could also just like, nerf some of the cards that can be pulled, and introduce a new thing where since card profaner is a 4 point card, it only can pull 2 cards that's sum is less than or equal to 4

[near sleet]

But I could see some cards like venom eater being cheaper

[winter palm]

eater at 0 would put poison cards on a wierd spot.

[near sleet]

But that’s maybe good?

[winter palm]

id stop using poison probably in response to it

eater would still be useless tho

[near sleet]

Kind of?

[quiet sapphire]

That would nerf everyonen but Marge

[near sleet]

It would be a meta call

Bc poison would be less common

[cedar compass]

Damn

[near sleet]

So venom would be useless

[winter palm]

meta call for sure

[quiet sapphire]

Truw

[near sleet]

So it wouldn’t be run so poison would be run again but less and then venom is a meta call

Which I think is healthy

Especially if you think you’ll run into myks for example

This is just a design question that interests me, it’s obv trash rn

[winter palm]

i'll go back to what i said like a day ago, eater needs a rework.

[near sleet]

You think?

How so? (Not to make you repeat urself)

[winter palm]

just a badly disigned card imo

[quiet sapphire]

Eater needs a healing rate to be buffed to abiut what pyro is

[near sleet]

Do you feel the same about thick coat and pyro!

?*

[winter palm]

yea

[near sleet]

Then we agree

[quiet sapphire]

Bruh

[winter palm]

cards that just cancel out whole builds are bad disign

[near sleet]

I think all 3 should be bigger explosions for their respective dmg type

[quiet sapphire]

We cant rework every counter card

Xd

[near sleet]

OMG SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS

dude I’ve been saying that since back when Lars was Tremont

Rampant*

[quiet sapphire]

I mean i see the problem but i dont believe devs will rework these

[near sleet]

Oh for sure

I don’t think they will do any of this

In my opinion some cards can’t be reworked

[quiet sapphire]

It is what is is

[near sleet]

I think swap, extra, profaner

Should be outright deleted

Ice block needs a timer

[winter palm]

yes thats what i said

[quiet sapphire]

Why swap lol

Swap is a good card

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[winter palm]

no, example of good disign would be nuke or iceblock, were the counter is very interactive, ( be it that ice block needs a timer)

i meant to reply to jani

[quiet sapphire]

I get it, i just dont believe devs will rework archtype counters

Like thicc, pyro and eater

[winter palm]

probably not

like you say

[fervent kernel]

Those should stay

[quiet sapphire]

The problem is eater is 5x worse compared to others

So if no rework it needs to be buffed

[near sleet]

Okay, this is like a big card game design thing, the issue with swap is that it is a tech card, that also just “wins” you the game, I’m not saying it’s broken or needs a nerf (I don’t think it reasonably can be nerfed which is why my hot take is delete it) but tech cards should be interactive counters that do not give you a significant advantage. Tech cards lessen or remove the oops advantage, not give you an advantage. Disarm removes an opps played advanatage piece like broomstick 👍 good design, it’s now back to a “50/50”
Swap removed their benefit AND gives you the benefit, this is poor card game design, even if it’s “balanced” within the game

Ik that’s a thesis sorry

[winter palm]

i think the others are okish, but eater is very niche and they should just expand on the archetype, make eater enhance poison instead of nullify it.

[near sleet]

The reason they should buff dmg instead of hurt a dmg type is like you say

Blanking a dmg type just kills builds and is often rng affected

[winter palm]

mhm

[near sleet]

Making them buff dmg creates builds and build diversity

[quiet sapphire]

If you run 0 weapons enemy swap and disarm are 0 value 😎

[winter palm]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/835174611984449566/1227688558836580515/siaro.gif

[fervent kernel]

Making poison better?

[near sleet]

If you can buff ur poison dmg maybe you would run cards you normally wouldn’t, admittedly not in the game as it currently is but in speaking about what is good and bad design, not just the current state of the game

[near sleet]

No

[winter palm]

gives you a gun with present

get played

[quiet sapphire]

Noooo

[quiet sapphire]

Present, extra, profaner, warproom and clown shoes need to be deleted

Then the game will be perfect

[near sleet]

“If your playing a deck that tech cards don’t counter the tech cards aren’t as good”

[fervent kernel]

Woah woah woah. Let's not go that route

[quiet sapphire]

True trategy

[near sleet]

It would be better but not perfect

[fervent kernel]

Somethings might be a problem but some should stay

[quiet sapphire]

Yes yes

[quiet sapphire]

Every card here is problematic

[near sleet]

Clown shoes are cringe and I’m surprised they didn’t get changed bc of public outcry but I don’t think they should be deleted

Conceptually the card is a reasonable effect

[quiet sapphire]

start the CARD PURGE

[near sleet]

It’s just the implementation

[fervent kernel]

I was talking at the extension of the full index hehhee

[near sleet]

Unlike profaner and extra which are problematic inherently not in implementation

[cedar compass]

We talk about card profaning mind blast, let's card profane clown shoes to defean and hurt the enemies ears :)

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[quiet sapphire]

I mean, is earrape reasonable?

[near sleet]

My arguement for flipping venom to extra dmg actually makes more sense for expanding the position dmg archetype than just blanking the opponent for a free round if venom stays as is and they expanded it

[near sleet]

No the idea of an audio based see thru walls

A reverse of silent step

Trust me I was on the frontlines in the discord arguing against it when it was released

But making crouch walking have audio is a good idea

Or a reasonable one I should say

[winter palm]

isnt that what i said? have enhance poison dmg?

[near sleet]

Also the idea of an audio jamming go effect potentially

[near sleet]

Maybe I misunderstood your comment

[winter palm]

you did

[quiet sapphire]

Audio is already a see through walls, its just making it earape

[near sleet]

But it gives crouchwalking audio

That is a fine effect

Again I’m arguing the earrape should be removed I agree with you

[winter palm]

meme cards stay meme cards :3c

[quiet sapphire]

Clown is no meme card

[near sleet]

Or their should be a setting that changes the sound

[quiet sapphire]

Its toxicity card

[near sleet]

Only on your end

So the op can hear the shoes and you hear regular walk sounds

But the card doesn’t need to be outright deleted like the others in the list

[quiet sapphire]

Sure

[near sleet]

Hey you guys seem knowledgeable, ik edu verz is the game designer?

Does that mean they do the maps?

[quiet sapphire]

Also lottery should be deleted

[near sleet]

Or ig I’m asking do we know who designs the maps?

[quiet sapphire]

Not sure

[winter palm]

they help im sure.

[near sleet]

I would just love to give whoever does do map design mad props

I legitimately believe this game has some of the most consistently amazing map design

[quiet sapphire]

Something is happening in vc

20 people and edu there

[near sleet]

I mean, yeah probably but we can’t say that one, maybe they just make it cost 3 and everyone quietly stops running it

[winter palm]

yee

some arg stuff it seems

[fervent kernel]

Just waiting at the door not shooting hoping for the best

[quiet sapphire]

Good plan

[near sleet]

lol

[near sleet]

its giving shadow of the collosus

[pale mist]

wth is happening in matchmaking

I stepped out for like an hour and a half and the channel sploded

anyway I'm catching up

[quiet sapphire]

We were explaining how card profaner brings unhealthy amount of rng while being an overpowered card

And how banning it would increase competetive integrity in the tourney

[cedar compass]

Oh shit, that's what was happening?

But the poll right now seems to show that it will still be allowed..
So I guess the opinions were still very skewed

[quiet sapphire]

Is very on par

Every vote counts

[pale mist]

damn we are evenly split about huh?

[quiet sapphire]

Its crazy that its so plit

I cant belieb people want to see more broken profaner combos and rounds dictated by profaner luck

[near sleet]

I don’t think they “want” that, they just play it cause it’s strong and don’t see why it’s an issue, bc it feels good when you get lucky with it
It isn’t as obvious a problem as the broken combos themselves

It’s basically asking a design question to game players

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah, most players defenvce for profaner is, "its ok to have strong card cus i use it and i like winnign with profaner rng"

The poll just asks the guestion who knows basic info about card game balancing and who doesnt care

[waxen pendant]

I'm gonna start charging rent i tell ya what

[thick thicket]

🔪

[cedar compass]

When filling out the that questionnaire that Koutu made; I had to put Card Profaner as my least favorite card because it aggravates so many other problems

2x Small Mag
2x Slow Reload
2x Health Down + Poison

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/plink-crunchycatluna-crunch-gif-10849465443816016024

[cedar compass]

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/chorãopls-gif-20394848

[cedar compass]

Are you trying to tell me something? xD

[thick thicket]

Naw

Bored and I wanted to see some mayhem in here.

[cedar compass]

Pffff fair enough

[thick thicket]

Cause most of the suggestions.

I can't take seriously.

💀

[cedar compass]

Such as?

[thick thicket]

Just take a look around.

[cedar compass]

I mean there’s a ton in this thread at this point

[thick thicket]

Jani wanted the Laika nerfed the other day.

Just an example.

😭

[cedar compass]

._.

Leave Laika out; that’s my favorite card

[thick thicket]

Laika is all skill at the end of the day.

No need to touch it. 😭

[cedar compass]

My TF2 Ambassador days live on with that card

Which is why it’s a such a great card

With only 6 shots (3 if you get Small Mag’ed), the margin for error is very small

[thick thicket]

It's just sad we don't buff anything with potential.

Just dead cards y'know.

👀

[near sleet]

i could see it go to 5 ammo its very good on only 2 points

i dont thinki needs to be nerferd tho

and the dmg prolly shouldnt be touched

[thick thicket]

Again. Skill shot.

Doesn't need to be touched.

[near sleet]

i agree

[thick thicket]

Buff the FK tho.

[cedar compass]

For Albatross however I do think that the fire rate should match the animation

[thick thicket]

Albatross is a weird one.

I just hate there is no point of using the ads feature.

[cedar compass]

Is it dead accurate on hipfire?

[thick thicket]

Yes

Kinda.

[cedar compass]

I think there is a slight deviation if you fire too fast

[near sleet]

yes pls

[cedar compass]

I’m so used to the 1.5s fire rate of the Sniper in TF2 that I end up firing that fast anyways

[cedar compass]

You know what, I think there could way an interest way to encourage that

At least in TF2, the sniper rifles in that game (with one exception of one) can only apply the 3X critical damage of a headshot if you’re scoped in

[thick thicket]

People would still just no scope tho.

🥲

[cedar compass]

Then reduce the damage of the hipfire

[thick thicket]

People would complain.

Go full babyrage mode.

[cedar compass]

But people do that anyways

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/smile-cat-smile-cat-cool-cat-gif-297291901262297802

[cedar compass]

It would indirectly nerf akimbo albatross which I guess people like

[quiet sapphire]

Bro i didnt, i was iffy about it and wnated to see more people say on that

[quiet sapphire]

Nobody said that

Why not make hipfire do 10 less

But id rather nerf albas firerate first

Its firerate is goofy

1 more dmg for AK? @thick thicket

Or less recoil

[thick thicket]

They would tho. 🤔

[jolly crown]

I would complain since it’s 3 power card

[pale mist]

It definitely is not from my testing

Bolt action sniper should not fire before it can rack its bolt

Imagine pre-ping firing a gerund

Thats how cursed it feels to play with and against alba

I'd honestly enjoy hipfire being 100% acc on alba if firerate was sane

But then CERTAIN psychopaths who put crosshairs on their monitors for hipfiring might be a little more advantaged in that

[thick thicket]

@quiet sapphire does that. xd

Hudsight gaming

[pale mist]

:O

smh smh

i'm gonna pearl clutch

not even using a sharpie

[quiet sapphire]

Cmon i havent opened crosshair app for months

[quiet sapphire]

I havent been using it for a long time

[quiet sapphire]

Dont call me put on stuff i dont do anymore

[thick thicket]

I didn't even know you stopped in the first place. 🤔

Sorry king!

[quiet sapphire]

I dont play albartross so theres no need

[quiet sapphire]

I shoukd shrimply have a crosshair

Like all other guns

[pale mist]

I do think it would be better to just have it have a dot crosshair

Eliminate this "ooooooh someone put a dot on their monitor luL" stuff

No crosshair doesn't affect me all that much since I play around with that in all sorts of stuff often anyway, but at the same time it's not really something that's possible to implement as a balancer

[quiet sapphire]

Thats what im saying

Let it have a dot scrosshair

Its the only reason people use monitor or app crosshair for FvF

[pale mist]

yep

Real talk

I would fkin love if FVF had a custom crosshair interface

just in general

Growing up with Quake III/QL I always expected UI/HUD/Crosshair/etc customization to get better and better and more free over the years and yet it's barely ever a thought it feels like now

[winter palm]

Jani why do you hate Laika so much?

let people have nice things

[quiet sapphire]

Cmoon

You mean the gun or char?

[winter palm]

[quiet sapphire]

I took laika nerf out long ago

[winter palm]

didnt you say it was iffy

[quiet sapphire]

I dont wana touch it yet

[quiet sapphire]

Yes in a sense i wasnt sure about that suggestion to nerf it

[quiet sapphire]

But i did agree that laika vs GB card is a big difference

In that laika is 2x better boira

For same cost

[winter palm]

well good thing a character doesnt start with Laika haha now that'd be busted

[quiet sapphire]

Exactly

[winter palm]

*Looks at laika as guest character suggestion

[quiet sapphire]

Thems are crazy suggestions

But i agree we should equal the laika vs GB difference a bit

And i entertained the idea to nerf laika dmg a tad, but its aminor issue maybe we should look at it after next update

Theres more important stuff to balance

[winter palm]

supposedly its the same universe, but Laika is in a post apocalyptic world, that kinda explains why friendtown seems to be in a desert

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kill-you-gif-5063683583336604795

[quiet sapphire]

Dont you agree that 2 cost laika is 2x better than 2 cost gboira

[winter palm]

i mean yea, but its easier to miss if your not skilled with it.

and its got a punishing reload

[quiet sapphire]

Thats called a 2x higher skill ceiling

Astronomically higher skill ceilings are kind of problem too

But not a major problem

As im saying laikavsgolden boira difference is only minorly problematic

There are better thigs to focus balancing on

[winter palm]

some weapons should be stronger than others, if you hit all your shots with a lika and a gboira

i'd hope the more skill based weapon has more dps

[quiet sapphire]

Strongness of cards shoudl always be reasonable withing its cost

[winter palm]

brother sticky can oneshot

its a 1 cost

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah

Its a thing id hope to nerf someday

[winter palm]

oh lord save us

[quiet sapphire]

But not any time soon

Dont worry

[winter palm]

if sticky only did 60 or whatever your thinking, its alrdy a skill to be able to stick someone, and to get little benefit from it would be terrible, I dont think anyone would run it.

[quiet sapphire]

Id only nerf it to like 80

If i were to nerf it

[quiet sapphire]

Dunno its incredibly easy in my eyes

[winter palm]

I guess like you said, there are worse things to worry about rn so if we're to touch it maybe down the line.

fix dale

maybe buff him too

[jolly crown]

Sticky is like one of the few ways to counter someone using a gun card and you not having swap or disarm

[winter palm]

right?

[quiet sapphire]

fur sure

[quiet sapphire]

this is priority

Dale is the worst

[pale mist]

Glad card profaner ban is in lead rn

Even beyond just rng, the fact it makes it possible to run the same 2card combo 4 rounds consecutively in duos is beyond unreasonable

[quiet sapphire]

exactly

[pale mist]

If it's banned at the very least a winning team will need to take a round without the same 2card setups in their best case, rather than forcing a hardcountered team to win two rounds through that combo

Resources dont matter if you can slam the same answer 4 rounds of 5

[cedar compass]

The vote is tied right now

[fervent kernel]

Fk? I thought it was goodie. Does it lack in the sense that it's literally a G boira with a bigger mag?

[thick thicket]

GB is better unless it's super up close.

[fervent kernel]

Ah gotcha

[quiet sapphire]

Fk is pretty bad for 3 cost in medium or longer range

[fervent kernel]

I'm at the opinion that it's a training wheel weapon. If you aren't sure in hitting your shots will shotty or Alby you use it. yesh, I'm very biased

[winter palm]

not really, it melts up close

i wouldnt ever change it from 3 cost

[fervent kernel]

I think the 3 cost statement was used as a base of it's dmg and utility

[quiet sapphire]

I dont think either

Maybe 1 more dmg or slightly better fecoil

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/plink-crunchycatluna-crunch-gif-10849465443816016024

[winter palm]

[fervent kernel]

Like the control of the gun?

[quiet sapphire]

fk buff suggestion isnt popular amongs people 😭

[winter palm]

better in what way? lol

more recoil?

[quiet sapphire]

Less aim punch recoil

Or less bloom

Both would work

[fervent kernel]

Just need time that everyone's aim is God tier. Then ppl will know

[thick thicket]

I usually run it cause fun, but its not great

[winter palm]

less recoil sure, less spread idk about that.

[quiet sapphire]

Its blooms is the worst so tapping it is only way to play it

[fervent kernel]

Ye,it rlly is a casual gun. No missing your shots cuz you got 31 bullets. I mean I rock it as the same reasons as well hehe

[fervent kernel]

I can agree with that. Is it just me or does it feels worse the G boira in long ranges?

[quiet sapphire]

Its 3x worse than gb in long range

Almost uplayable

Fk to me is DJ only card cus of its crazy bloom

[cedar compass]

I would run it on Spike with accuracy up

[fervent kernel]

Rlly? Daaamn

My weapons used to be shotty and Fk for a whileeee

[cedar compass]

I should run it again

[quiet sapphire]

I recommend shotty and alba

[quiet sapphire]

Well yeah its playble with accu up

[fervent kernel]

I use shotty deep fryer or Alby deep fryer

Bitey has gives alot of utility what can I say

[quiet sapphire]

@thick thicket 10%less bloom on ak? You like that AK buff?

[plush dragon]

I think fk is already pretty good

It's no boomstick but

It's not like it's bad

It's perfectly usable

[quiet sapphire]

It feels crazy bad on range but buffing ak isnt too important cus ist really good with accurazy

Its just feels mega bad on range without more accuracy

[thick thicket]

It's just mega bad for a 3 cost.

👀

[quiet sapphire]

We wont make it 2 tho

[thick thicket]

Not asking for that.

[quiet sapphire]

10% less bloom good?

[plush dragon]

Finally

[thick thicket]

Sounds alright.

[plush dragon]

2.5 cost card

Very spicy opinion make it deal

1 more base damage

So the automatic rifle deals more damage than a funny pistol

I know the math off memory it won't do major changes to damage thresholds

[quiet sapphire]

Would not fix its pain point, its an assault rifle that is trash on long, to mid range

[quiet sapphire]

It already does 1 more than GB

[plush dragon]

Oh darn I haven't noticed

[plush dragon]

Give it a secondary option of a more accurate burst fire?

[quiet sapphire]

Would be cool

[plush dragon]

Not enough weapons have a secondary effect

[quiet sapphire]

But id rather suggest simple value changes than complex reworks to devs

[quiet sapphire]

Would be nice

[plush dragon]

Yeah

What is it rn

Albatross and katana?

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[plush dragon]

Dumb idea give boira and gboira a secondary of just

Smacking someone with the gun

[quiet sapphire]

Naaaah

[plush dragon]

Make it deal like 5 damage

Itd be funny

[quiet sapphire]

The game has too much mobility and short maps for melee spam

[plush dragon]

Make it slow?

So you can't spam it but if someone's really low and you got your gun frozen or you have no ammo

You can just

Bonk em

[thick thicket]

I rather reload and deal the 65% more damage

🤷‍♂️

[plush dragon]

I mean it is only meant to be a dumb little thing that

might come in use

Very occasionally

[fervent kernel]

I think it's not too much. But we truly have a mouthful. I would be happy we don't get more movement but hey, not mad if they do

[rain canyon]

So remove katana?

[thick thicket]

+1

[quiet sapphire]

Thats melee as an optional dmg form while having a gun

Katana is only melee, thats ist weakness and balance

Having a gun and also having melee is too much

[plush dragon]

i dunno 5 damage seems like a meanial thing

especially with a long cooldown

[rain canyon]

Imo a 15 damage melee with a 1.5 sec cooldown would be fine. Not too needed tho

[quiet sapphire]

yeah i feel like that would also be not needed

maybe as a card ability, as long as its not powerfull and just goofy

[quiet sapphire]

new suggestion

make tin man 3 cost and painkillers 2 cost

those would be the appropriate costs for both

or/and make painkillers limit to 1hp

so you don't insta die after timer

[cedar compass]

Isn’t that the whole weakness of PK? That there’s a timer associated with the heal?

[quiet sapphire]

you wont have to play heal with pain

pain will be more flexible

and imo its pretty ass for 3 cost

[cedar compass]

I guess that means you can’t just nuke during the transition so they die

[quiet sapphire]

that too would be welcome change

[rain canyon]

yea I for sure agree. Don't think painkillers needs to be limited to 1 hp tho

[quiet sapphire]

Ok

Just a wild idea thats fun

[pale mist]

Mm I can understand both camps

I do kind of like the idea of 1hp PKing just because it could be funny to break someone's ankles after a pk pop

[cedar compass]

Break their ankles or their wrists by trying to track you?

[pale mist]

Yes

[cedar compass]

You just want to see people's most critical joints be broken

[rain canyon]

Don’t we all?

[whole meteor]

I love the painkiller's effect, but death at the end of time makes me think it's not better than the Tin Man, just to avoid a pitiful drop in speed...

[rain canyon]

Yea tin man at 2 cost is also crazy. It started off at 4 cost I think, then was made 3 then 2. It was perfectly fine at 3, and painkillers are kinda meh at 3

[whole meteor]

So I think keeping at least 1hp at the end of the timer should improve that, and if you can beat your opponent for the duration of the painkiller, just like before, even if you can't beat your opponent immediately, you still have some possibility of a counterattack

The painkillers may be fine, but his colleagues are much more competitive than he is, which is a bit of a failure for card design

[rain canyon]

Eh I think painkillers are gonna be a tad too good and lose their identity. I’d rather just see them at 2 cost

[whole meteor]

For a long time, I only saw the possibility of painkillers in Santana's card group, and in other cases I find it hard to imagine why it would cost 3cost to use painkillers instead of the much cheaper 2cost to use Tin Man

Perhaps the current design is too conservative

[quiet sapphire]

I do think to 1 hp is more instersting identity

The problem with painkillers is you have to use healing with it at the end

I dont like that part

[fervent kernel]

3 -> 4 -> 2

[plush dragon]

dumb idea

another weapon card akin to akimbo

that gives weird secondary uses to the weapons that dont have them?

[quiet sapphire]

the game has dumb ideas like electric fence

[quiet sapphire]

i don't want that either but if its unusable bad its ok to be in the game if devs do it

[plush dragon]

i think more weapon cards alike akimbo would be fun

ones that either temporarily give a new use

or just give a small new use until the end

of the round tht is

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[plush dragon]

maybe attachment cards that have a limited use attack thing?

[quiet sapphire]

stupid things are ok to be in the game. But stupid op stuff like profaner cant be in tourneys

[quiet sapphire]

maybe

[plush dragon]

i cant wait for boomstick with an underbarrel shotgun

[quiet sapphire]

we thought about BIG bullets card that gives hot cards bullet cards when used you reload your weapon with and shooting it will give you knockback but more dmg

something like that

[plush dragon]

okay but

spike already has bigger bullets

😳

[quiet sapphire]

yeah just brainstorming fun ideas

[plush dragon]

hm

biggest bullet card

sets ammo to 1

each weapon has a unique effect

punch-r just nukes

boiras and laika could get like

5x damage shot

that applies a lot of knockback

[quiet sapphire]

but lets go back to balance suggesting and leave that for new ideas threads

[plush dragon]

yeah

pyromaniac annoys me on one level

[quiet sapphire]

Venom eater buff: from 4 heal per poison tic to 8 heal
Sly shooter: from 3 cost to 2 cost and applies to both teammates back shot area widened
Invisibility buff: from 3 cost to 2 cost
Present nerf: from 1 cost to 2 cost/or add more weaponless card combo packages
Invisible health buff: also hides own dmg numbers from enemy
Bear trap buff: make it pink and function like a trap category card
Nuke nerf: from 0 cost to 1 cost
profaner nerf: now a legendary rarity and copies only one card (can be 3 cost then)
Dale buff: back shot area widened or give him silent steps extra passive
Tin man nerf: from 2 cost to 3 cost
Painkillers buff: from 3 cost to 2 cost

[quiet sapphire]

newest ongoing list

[plush dragon]

you canuhh

get completely locked from winning

[quiet sapphire]

?

it has timer

[plush dragon]

really?

how long?

[quiet sapphire]

😮‍💨

patchnotes

[thick thicket]

Have you not played?

🤔

[quiet sapphire]

8 secs

[plush dragon]

oh cool

nevermind then

[plush dragon]

no i dont run it

or use fire weapons

[thick thicket]

Meant the game lol.

[plush dragon]

definitely not as much as you

[thick thicket]

I haven't even played.

💀

[quiet sapphire]

it's good to know the newest patch notes when talking about balance suggestions

[thick thicket]

''do bombs still do 130 damage? I want that nerfed 🤓''

[plush dragon]

never had a problem with bombs

[quiet sapphire]

good one

[quiet sapphire]

they were too swingy and easily one-shotting for 1 cost cards

[plush dragon]

i think the fact you needed to shoot them for them to be most effective was

is a fair trade off for them being strong

if you dont do that they are really easily dodgable

[quiet sapphire]

the thing is its surprisingly easy to shoot them

everyone learned to do that

[plush dragon]

make them a bit smaller?

[quiet sapphire]

not the worst suggestion but its history now

[plush dragon]

yeah doesnt matter at this point

[thick thicket]

This was like 7 months ago probably.

[quiet sapphire]

sticky could be made smaller cus the point of it is to stick it to people

but its not the time for sticky nerf yet

[plush dragon]

i remember doing smth funny

ninja smoke into sticky bomb

[quiet sapphire]

i like to ninja log and activate own speed boost and invis with stickying myself

[plush dragon]

honestly spicy opinion, keep invisibility the same price but make it real invisibility

[quiet sapphire]

denies stick dmg and manual ninja smoke

[plush dragon]

oh i used ninja smoke to confuse a person and stick it on them easier

[quiet sapphire]

its tied to ninja log and ninja smoke. that would mean making them real invisible too

[plush dragon]

make a seperete effect?

[quiet sapphire]

well maybe

[plush dragon]

since spicy opinion, ninja smoke is just better invisibility

since it makes you way harder to start tracking

[quiet sapphire]

but I always rather suggest value changes than complicated reworks

[quiet sapphire]

its not spicy at all

thats obvious

[plush dragon]

i mean

it doesnt even need a seperate effect

you could probably fuck around and just

make it remove your model for a while and then give it back

as long as hitboxes arent for some reason directly tied to the player model

[quiet sapphire]

oh yeah

does 25 secs timer on invis hand sound good?

i do feel like its mega disruptive for both enemies especially if they have been saving cards

[plush dragon]

7s and make it shuffle the hand

[whole meteor]

hello？

[fervent kernel]

What if it completely blocked bombs and lower bullet dmg by 20 percent?

[whole meteor]

It's a wonderful idea, which makes it defensible

[fervent kernel]

It could be!

(Even tho it would still not be meta. Atleast make it funnier)

[whole meteor]

However, this idea seems to be a bit difficult to implement, if they are only immune to blast damage, then the opponent can use the parabola to throw the bomb behind the fence

In my case, it wasn't that the fence could not be used because it was easily destroyed by the bomb, but that it had no significant effect even if it was used

[fervent kernel]

Ye, so that means there is still counter play. Just deletes bombs and a sudo rubber bullet!

[fervent kernel]

Oh I meant by bombs thrown at the purple laser would just get deleted hehe

[whole meteor]

It would be interesting to make a barrier stance that weakens enemy bullets

[whole meteor]

crazy

[quiet sapphire]

imo the simple way to fix laser fence is to scrap the poles and make electricity come out of blue stickybomb models that you can throw to walls to connect electricity

[fervent kernel]

That would be cuuul

[quiet sapphire]

yes

[whole meteor]

A more practical idea

[fervent kernel]

So it would still have the same cutting points as what we have rn?

[whole meteor]

This is easier to achieve from the card design

[fervent kernel]

Or will we be able to create 180° funni funs

[quiet sapphire]

maybe

poles are just too unfomfortable to use

thats the main painpoint of the card

[fervent kernel]

Tru

You have to run in

Put em polls

Get out or die with em

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[fervent kernel]

4 bombs that make funky lasers......oooooh

What about him?

[quiet sapphire]

in the list

make back shots wider and/or give him silent boots

[fervent kernel]

Yeeee

(Personally want 180 degrees and 160% dmg)

[whole meteor]

Maybe Santana should be redone

[quiet sapphire]

also put him on a diet so his steps are more silent

[quiet sapphire]

Sable is ok

[whole meteor]

She's too unhealthy for the game environment

[fervent kernel]

Isn't Sable goodie?

[fervent kernel]

How so?👀

[fervent kernel]

Lol. But he depressed of the divorce

[quiet sapphire]

there are tons of ways counter her

[whole meteor]

For the novice, they don't handle the katana very well, they just watch the opposite side accelerate into their own face, and then get killed by several knives

[quiet sapphire]

the only unhealthy part is that if enemy always votes the close range map she feels annoying to fight against

[quiet sapphire]

yes but that mostly a skill and game knowlege issue

[fervent kernel]

How else are we gonna use a katana?

[quiet sapphire]

just like for noobs fighting heartless is hard

[whole meteor]

She's also so weak for a veteran that whenever I encounter Santana on the opposite side, I'm able to handle her with ease (even if I don't specifically target her cards).

[fervent kernel]

@foggy niche Kebaaaaaab

Aaaaaaaa

[whole meteor]

[fervent kernel]

Goodie Sables are always consistent in getting kills and surviving. Tho there are times where you got nuffin to do eck!

[quiet sapphire]

there are some very good sable players

[whole meteor]

Probably because I rarely meet the best friend segment guy who uses Tiger

[quiet sapphire]

we can 1v1 and it wont be an ease😎

[whole meteor]

Please teach me the secret of using Santana the tiger, Sir

[quiet sapphire]

there's like 3 bff sable players true haha

[fervent kernel]

I know 2, whose the other one?

[whole meteor]

I only know one friend who's really good at Steve Seagull

[quiet sapphire]

i cant remember the name but someone eklse plays sable in bff too

[quiet sapphire]

there's like 50 of them

[fervent kernel]

But everyone's goodie with Stevie

Hehe

[quiet sapphire]

everyone plays boring old Stevie

[fervent kernel]

I tried Donnie....but that G boira man.....it's addicting

[whole meteor]

I think his name is jakob....？

[quiet sapphire]

he is the most stable (but boring) meta pick

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[fervent kernel]

Yuuuup

[whole meteor]

He's really strong. My friends and I can't beat him. Haha

I remember one night we were beaten by him several times in a row, and, alas, it was a painful experience to remember

[quiet sapphire]

swap it and give katana to your enemy 😭

[whole meteor]

cooooool

That's what I was thinking

[quiet sapphire]

haha but the round you draw energy and speed its pretty easy to slice with katana

[fervent kernel]

I remember when that was actually a strat

(Not with Sable)

[quiet sapphire]

i still use it

[whole meteor]

Whenever I thrust my katana into my opponent's hand, they would look very confused

now

[fervent kernel]

I mean using other characters giving Katana was a strategy

[whole meteor]

We are Myk

[quiet sapphire]

Myk is the underdog king 👑

[fervent kernel]

Stevie gets nerfed....it's gonna be myk time

[whole meteor]

I love Myk's character setting. This guy is just right for me

[fervent kernel]

What about duck?

[whole meteor]

He and little Lars are my two favorite characters

[whole meteor]

As much as I like Myk, if I had to choose, I'd rather be friends with someone like Duck

[fervent kernel]

Let's goooooo

Woooooo!

[earnest violet]

You like zaza?

[fervent kernel]

I love Zaza

[whole meteor]

[fervent kernel]

[foggy niche]

want to do 2v2 ? 👀

[fervent kernel]

yesh yesh, that would be fun

[foggy niche]

Moueeheheh

[whole meteor]

I'd love to. It's not often I get to fight someone who's really good at Santana

[foggy niche]

How do you know that im that good with katana ? 🙄

[whole meteor]

But I have to wait for my friend. He's too busy at work...

[fervent kernel]

nooooo

[foggy niche]

😄

[quiet sapphire]

dont abuse flame tho

[whole meteor]

Can I add your steam friend？

[foggy niche]

I don't

[foggy niche]

Usame ?

My steam account is Nyancat122774647

[fervent kernel]

Well not "abuse" more like utilizing it to the next level

[whole meteor]

sure

[fervent kernel]

(Ye that's abusing lol hehe)

[foggy niche]

So everything is abuse 👀

[whole meteor]

When I get home, I'll add you

[quiet sapphire]

shooting through wall is abusing tho

[fervent kernel]

Maaaaaybe

[fervent kernel]

Yeye hehee

[whole meteor]

I think we've met

My friends and I were playing Myk, and I think your teammates were reindeer

[fervent kernel]

That ain't the Usame I know

Was it that old of a time?👀

[foggy niche]

I don't play with people who use moose I think

[foggy niche]

He was using mike until he discovred stevie (5 hours of playing later)

[fervent kernel]

lol

[whole meteor]

okey

[whole meteor]

Can I ask you for some tips on playing tiger？

[quiet sapphire]

wana play 1v1?

[foggy niche]

sure

[whole meteor]

@fervent kernel @foggy niche

[fervent kernel]

yeeeesss?

[whole meteor]

You guys are gooooood

[foggy niche]

😮

Thanks 😄

[whole meteor]

Those two were me and my friends

my name is 祈風

🥺

[fervent kernel]

ooooh we fooouuugght hehe

[whole meteor]

We were beaten up and left defenseless hahah

[foggy niche]

Oh okok, I added you 😄

[whole meteor]

thanks

[fervent kernel]

was fun!

[whole meteor]

😋

[cedar compass]

Yes omg please nerf invisible hamd

[quiet sapphire]

Venom eater buff: from 4 heal per poison tic to 8 heal
Sly shooter: from 3 cost to 2 cost and applies to both teammates, back shot area widened
Invisibility buff: from 3 cost to 2 cost
Present nerf: from 1 cost to 2 cost/or add more weaponless card combo packages
Invisible health buff: also hides own dmg numbers from enemy
Bear trap buff: make it pink and function like a trap category card
Nuke nerf: from 0 cost to 1 cost
profaner nerf: now a legendary rarity and copies only one card (can be 3 cost then)
Dale buff: back shot area widened or give him silent steps extra passive
Tin man nerf: from 2 cost to 3 cost
Painkillers buff: from 3 cost to 2 cost
invisible hand nerf: has a timer of 25 secs

updated list

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-cat-creepy-cat-cat-zoom-kitty-gif-18136879

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/creepy-cat-cat-smile-smiling-cat-fake-smile-cat-gif-12989388

[quiet sapphire]

everyone smiles and agrees

[winter palm]

VE still going to be useless
sly shooter buff yea 2 cost
invis buff, nah
present nerf to 2 yea tho the devs seems to be against it
Invisible health buff, nah
nuke nerf to 1 cost yea
profaner nerf, no lol, if anything make it 5 cost
dale qol change yea he needs a few bugfixs, sometimes footprints dont appear and backshot hitbox needs to be adjusted
tinman nerf yes card this good doesnt need to be a 2 cost, nerf duration or cost.
Painkillers doesnt need a buff, its another tinman
invisible hand nerf, possibly but its not a priority

[winter palm]

you wish :p

[quiet sapphire]

why not invis buff

its mega ass

especially for a 3 cost

nobody uses it

[winter palm]

if you want to run invis use smoke bomb ninja smoke, or if you build around it you'll need to invest points

[thick thicket]

I disagree with all of you.

https://tenor.com/view/cat-smile-gif-7435842

[winter palm]

making a deck consistant should cost something

its not always how good a card is

[fervent kernel]

I mean I wanna hear your thoughts

[thick thicket]

I was only kidding.

[winter palm]

make it make sense

[thick thicket]

I needed a reason to post cat.

[fervent kernel]

Ah......

[quiet sapphire]

Jacob only lurks here

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kill-you-gif-5063683583336604795

[thick thicket]

I mean I do disagree with 50% of the stuff you say in here.

🤔

[quiet sapphire]

? smoke bomb for invis??

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/tole-tole-cat-scared-gif-14784695303652887463

[winter palm]

i meant ninja smoke

[quiet sapphire]

well you havent played the new patches of the game much

[thick thicket]

Again. Were all different with different opinions.

I have been watching tho.

😎

[quiet sapphire]

ehh wont get as accurate info and feeling of the balance as playing

[thick thicket]

And most of it needed some sort of a fix months ago too.

[winter palm]

he's still played more than 90% the playersbase and is still a bff

[thick thicket]

Just not Dale

Dale is fresh.

[quiet sapphire]

of course he is bff there is no decay

[winter palm]

tru

all the best players havnt really changed tho

[quiet sapphire]

yeah thats the problem

invisible card is dead

cus smoke bomb and ninja log are much better value/cost ratio

[thick thicket]

Real question is why would the make a card and then make a better one of the same card.

🤔

🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔

[quiet sapphire]

invis is terrible value/cost ratio

[cedar compass]

I mean Invisible+Silent Steps(+Pixel Vision) isn’t a bad combo, it’s just expensive

[quiet sapphire]

invis is not the same as ninja smoke

[thick thicket]

Don't mention the secret sauce of silent step.

[quiet sapphire]

its pretty bad

[thick thicket]

Oh I was talking about log.

[winter palm]

this can do without silent step, that seems overkill

[cedar compass]

You need to strike fear in them

[quiet sapphire]

oh devs

[thick thicket]

This combo reveals how Siaro died.

[quiet sapphire]

we will never know

but invisibiluty needs some love too

dead card for 3 cost

katana was dead as 3 cost card too

now many people run it and love it

same solution

[winter palm]

did you not read my consistency argument or we just ignoring it?

[thick thicket]

All of the 20 active players.

[quiet sapphire]

i dojnt get it

[winter palm]

jani i thought you played cardgames

[thick thicket]

Check tele @winter palm

😦

[quiet sapphire]

id do

i dont understant how consistency ties to invis effect

its simply too expensive to be anyhow viable

[quiet sapphire]

card games reduce the mana/deckcost of overpriced cards all the time

theres nothing more to it

all i suggest is make its value/cost ratio reasonable

the effect is baffilingly bad for a 3 cost

[winter palm]

it would be too good as a 2 cost

[quiet sapphire]

not really

people still track you in invis

remember

[winter palm]

sure its bad as 3 but i disagree with buffing

[quiet sapphire]

and you get out of it first shot

[fervent kernel]

It's becuz it's just invis

[winter palm]

sometimes cards should remain bad

[quiet sapphire]

why

[winter palm]

because its unhealthy

for the game

[quiet sapphire]

invis is not unhealthy

its reasonable effect

enemy still tracks you in invis

thats a biiiig minus

[winter palm]

also bad for new player experience imo

[quiet sapphire]

i wish you had same knack of unhealthy cards as for profaner when profaner is infinitely more unhealthy for the game compared to.... invis

[quiet sapphire]

skill issue

[fervent kernel]

If you can't would it be goodie? Yes. Would there be counter play beyond simple predictions, no

[winter palm]

im aware invis effect isnt the greatest

[quiet sapphire]

they will learn

[quiet sapphire]

yes

so buff its cost

simple

it will still be niche card

cus invis effect bad nad you get out of it first shot

[quiet sapphire]

more playable,viable cards = more variety = healthier game

there's nothing unhealthy in invis effect how it works

[winter palm]

invis is for decks built around the effect, im saying you should need to invest for that, not just spend 5 points for all the invis cards.

[quiet sapphire]

the "build around the effects" are still bad and always overcostly

[quiet sapphire]

there are no invis card decks that are usable or remotely good

[winter palm]

false

[whole meteor]

what

[quiet sapphire]

tell me some "great" invis combos

with the card invisibility

[winter palm]

you siad usable and changed it to remotely good

[quiet sapphire]

same thing

[winter palm]

ofc the're not "great"

[quiet sapphire]

i said both

[quiet sapphire]

good for their cost

[winter palm]

theres always a "meta"

[quiet sapphire]

thats what i mean