Card Balance Suggestions [REVISED]

[cedar compass]

#📺clips-n-photos message

Katana needs further range buffs /sarcasm ||I know in the referenced clip, this is lag-related||

[winter palm]

skill issue 😎

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/view/single-tear-black-kid-cry-crying-gif-5098985

[cedar compass]

Okay after my testing, I need to show this math. Small Mag's first usage on certain guns gets much more value than advertised due to how the game rounds down bullet values (even if you have more than half a bullet).
And the Magazine cards are always scaling off of your current magazine size, not the default (so you cannot counter the opposing mag card by playing the other)
Corrections below

[quiet sapphire]

i remember that double small mag resulted in 2 bullets in game ??

you tested these in game?

[cedar compass]

I tested these at 3am so I may have gotten the numbers wrong. My recording software only saved the Laika/Albatross; I did the rest off with math

[cedar compass]

I think 2 bullet boira would result in being triple small mag'ed

[quiet sapphire]

nope its 2 bullets from 2 smaall mags

[cedar compass]

That's bonkers, let me run some numbers

If it actually reduces it to two, then I think there's only 1 way to make the math work

[cedar compass]

Okay, so my original math calculations were wrong (which was the due to testing Small Mag with weapons that had low magazine capacity)

[fervent kernel]

make venom eater and sly shooter affect also you tm8
AAAAAAAAAA

[cedar compass]

But Pyromania still doesn't affect your teammate, correct?

[fervent kernel]

Ye

Pyro heals alot

Venom dont

And sly should definitely both affect tm8

Ooh and brain mirror 2 hehe

[cedar compass]

Does brain mirror counter mind blowing?

[quiet sapphire]

yes

[cedar compass]

TIL

[fervent kernel]

I mean if it doesn't kinda a worst helmet

So it's cuuulllll

[cedar compass]

I think that's fine

[quiet sapphire]

helmet is for both brain mirro for only user

its pretty bad

[cedar compass]

Ooooooh, sorry I misunderstood

[cedar compass]

Follow-up corrections for Laika and Albatross

Should 2x Small Mag just be a round winner?

[rain canyon]

No

And it isn't currently, but it is damn powerful. I still feel like they just need to implement a better stacking system tho

[quiet sapphire]

Venom eater buff: from 4 heal per poison tic to 8 heal
Sly shooter: from 3 cost to 2 cost and applies to both teammates back shot area widened
Invisibility buff: from 3 cost to 2 cost
Present nerf: from 1 cost to 2 cost/or add more weaponless card combo packages
Invisible health buff: also hides own dmg numbers from enemy
Bear trap buff: make it pink and function like a trap category card
Nuke nerf: from 0 cost to 1 cost
profaner nerf: now a legendary rarity and copies only one card
Dale buff: back shot area widened or give him silent steps extra passive

[fervent kernel]

Venom eater Buff could make it unkillable with a poison brass. But let's Buff it and see

[quiet sapphire]

It wouldnt

Poison brass would still do way more dmg than healing

[quiet sapphire]

venom eater doesn't heal more the more poison triggers you take

it keeps 8 hp healing per second as long as you get poisoned

[fervent kernel]

yeye

[quiet sapphire]

also deny fire dmg when transitioning to nuke map

[cedar compass]

^This one please

[cedar compass]

Going off of what @pale mist said, what if No Jump/Double Jump was changed to be -1 Jump/+1 Jump?

As it currently stands, one card usage with an unlucky draw for a 1 point counter card, is a pretty ugly relationship considering it invalidates Moose Salto to the point where her usefulness is the same as Riberto

[pale mist]

Makes a B tier character slightly less hard trashed by a common add-in by making it a unique positive that they keep 1 jump naturally during nojump rather than becoming even less of a character than anyone else in the cast because their trait card gets completely overriden

No jump doesn't really even get hurt by this, it just goes from "Great against literally everyone in the game, but slaughters moose in an alley" to "Great against literally everyone in the game, but only 'good' against moose"

If I rubber bullets a spike, it doesn't set their base damage to normal before THEN applying rubber bullets. No jump should not be any different

[cedar compass]

Same thing with Less Accuracy with DJ Newton

[quiet sapphire]

it would be trash against moose

no way im spending 2 cost to only take double jump away

thats terrible value

[pale mist]

Shrug I still think you can cause one to off-map themselves if you play around its timing

[quiet sapphire]

That is a rare thing and not the goal with using nojump

no jump is used to deny high ground and to limit enemies' paths most of the time

[pale mist]

Yes, which it still definitely can. Usually as moose your positioning is different to the rest of the cast, since you have more vertical path options

[quiet sapphire]

dunno this change would buff moose and make no jump way less common

also we dont want triple or quadruple jumps

[pale mist]

For instance, it's not as oppressive sure, but in subway, it denies Moose the route up to window.

I don't see that as a bad thing? No jump being a universal no brainer easy slam card is uber boring, and having dynamics that make it actually interactive would make it nicer by a landslide

This is a 1 card interaction, recall

It's not like Moose is in a dominating position that needs nojump as a harder counter check than any other character has in the entire game

And again, changing it to be interactive like this doesn't even stop nojump from being insanely good across all situations, it just makes it not this weird override situation

(I don't know about you but having quadruple jumps sounds like a terribly ineffective, but hilariously funny gimmick round with profaners)

(Especially since it's temporary)

[cedar compass]

Apparently if you Card Profaner Clown Shoes, the noise from footsteps is loud enough to damage people's hearing

[pale mist]

LOL

Now I want to test this

[quiet sapphire]

yeah

[pale mist]

Card lottery pulls from a random pool yeah?

[cedar compass]

The pool is from cards in your deck

[quiet sapphire]

nope, from your deck

[pale mist]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm okay
I must be insane then. I could have sworn I remembered it pulling random things I didn't have

[cedar compass]

You could internally have a cap of jumps at three, so stacking it doesn't cause people to grow wings and jump into the skybox. But I think there is something to be said about just, turning off a movement key

[pale mist]

can you imagine the absolute shitfest that "no forward" would be

"Become CRAB"

[cedar compass]

You literally read my mind, I was about to say that

"No Retreat"

You constantly walk forward and cannot move backwards

[rain canyon]

Always forward is way worse, trust me. You and your opponent just spin circles around each other

[quiet sapphire]

its also a skill to manage without jump

there's a lot of spots in the game that just need sidegliding to walk over

[quiet sapphire]

we don't need more no jumps haha

and that's way worse lol

[cedar compass]

Yeah definitely a joke concept hahaha
If you press S at all you die

[pale mist]

I mean it was a skill for me to be able to play TF2 on 13 FPS ten years ago, but that doesn't mean I think that I should have a "13 FPS laser" to hit enemies with

You can say it's a skill to manage anything and that doesn't make it an engaging mechanic

[quiet sapphire]

i meain it in map knowledge way

you can walk over to drop from theater 2 level to 1st without jump, you can cross the rooftop fence spawn to the other side to group with teammate without jump. You can walk around the truck in trucksspawn without a jump, (pretty hard)

[pale mist]

Yeah, but all of these things are like finnicky and fiddly, not super practical in a balanced match, and again, frankly, not fun. If it has to be in the game at the bare minimum we should improve the card interaction to not be a "nuh uh,,, you get nothing" based on who plays second

Can you get out of the subway tracks if you get nojumped between them? Sure, if you have the time to walk to the stairwell before you get run over or gunned down lmao

[quiet sapphire]

thats why you should cross it alongside the wall

theres always stars on if crossing alongside the wall

[pale mist]

Mm, but isn't it a bit telling about how awful the card is if we're dictating our rotation choices around a 2 cost debuff, which is already insane for just DM potential

Again the card can stay in the game, but I'm advocating that it be more interactable on a cards/personality cards level because right now it's not just unfun on the field, it's unfun to deck around

[quiet sapphire]

i don't consider nojump to be that bad considering these workarounds and if you have cards affecting ttk and firepower you will still likely win the round

also double jump is only an alive card because of how much counters nojump

[pale mist]

"Workarounds". Being able to walk a path that's one dimensional and slow isn't a workaround

Yes, I'm aware. Changing this around would still make that better since it wouldn't be only a reactive card

Currently you can't play DJ first, EVER.

[quiet sapphire]

yeah why would you

[pale mist]

Meanwhile if you wanted to idk actually use DJ for rotations you can without risking losing both

[quiet sapphire]

its just smarter to save it for nojump

[pale mist]

if you had +1-1

Yes I'm saying that dynamic is binary and awful

NJ is always good to use 100% of the time

DJ is never good to use unless NJ has already been used

This is a shit dynamic

[cedar compass]

That's the problem though, you always have to save it for "use in case of emergencies"

[cedar compass]

This isn't even factoring in it being Profaned; which means your emergency usage can be drained if you didn't Profane it yourself

[quiet sapphire]

im not sure if DJ "rotations" are a thing

[pale mist]

??? As a moose main there are so many dj only routes if you wanted to take with a duo would be strong

For instance from 2nd floor museum to third via painting

Allows a flank route if they're watching the stairs

Or subway windows from floor

[quiet sapphire]

from 1st floor?

[quiet sapphire]

that doable without DJ

[pale mist]

Sure, but it's a good deal slower and a different route

[quiet sapphire]

hmm i guess there are some rountes

[pale mist]

Point being nobody ;uses them beca;use nobody uses DJ as DJ

They use DJ as "man I guess I have to cleanse the garbage card"

[quiet sapphire]

but i dont think its worth using 1 cost card for a slightly faster route

[quiet sapphire]

its not the best value

[pale mist]

You open routes, change your DM options, and make yourself protected from being 0jump during the duration by NJ

(if +1 system)

I agree that currently it's shit value because its entire value proposition right now doesn't come from getting to time when you actually use it

Proactive use of DJ in a Stevie Sable team for instance can allow for quick high ground acquisition by Stevie and tighter routing/chase by sable

[cedar compass]

Right now, Double Jump might as well be called "Jump Cleanse"

[quiet sapphire]

I can agree to this change if we cap DJ at 2 jumps

[pale mist]

But again, that can't happen in current card interaction because proactive DJ is just hard countered by NJ being in every deck because again, NJ is brainless "throw card"

[quiet sapphire]

Not that brainless

You have to use it in certain rounds for it to be worth

In trucks use it when opponents are truck spawn

[pale mist]

my friend when you've personally used it against me in sets 4/5 rounds in the set I can't really take that at face value lol

[quiet sapphire]

In rofftops when opponents at fence spawn

[pale mist]

"Well let's wait out the... Well let's wait out the no-- well they'll be out of no ju-- Well I guess we just don'--"

Throw nojump every round, get value. Especially something like back of gas station spawn

Those don't make it usable, they just make it better

[quiet sapphire]

Well yeah

[quiet sapphire]

But what about this

[pale mist]

I'm fine with that, I suppose. I don't really see where multijumps could get broken, but I wouldn't mind

[quiet sapphire]

I dont want moose to have DJ in his deck and go for triple jumps

[pale mist]

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where 3+ jumps is anything but a meme anyway

[quiet sapphire]

I find it scary levels of throwing peoples aim off

Moose does that enought already with double jumping and straifing the whole time midair

[pale mist]

Pfft that is fair

@cedar compass You still got that clip of me full dodging your fryer? lmao

[quiet sapphire]

Currently yes

[pale mist]

Anyway quickly speaking to throwing people's aims off

You aware of coyote time in FVF?

[quiet sapphire]

Nope

[quiet sapphire]

But not with triple

[pale mist]

There's a fairly significant coyote time period after you walk off a ledge for you to jump

[quiet sapphire]

Ah yeah

[pale mist]

You can use it to fake drop behind things and jump back up with no support

[quiet sapphire]

Ye ye

[quiet sapphire]

Works rarely on me 😎

I really rarely see good mooses

All they do is talk about how good moose is in subway, and then i just easily parkour to do the same thing with 1 jump

With my different 1 jump rollouts

[pale mist]

lmaooo

There are cheeky spots in almost every map

DJ only routes

New map has some nice stuff for that for moose

[quiet sapphire]

i guarantee i can bust some of them with 1 jump

[quiet sapphire]

only one rollout to the tree in the middle from what iv seen

[pale mist]

For instance, were you aware you can stand on the ceiling lights in Theatre

Mostly just an ambush spot

[quiet sapphire]

yup

ez with 1 jump

[pale mist]

We may not be talking about the same lights LOL

But I'd love to see it anyway

I'd pull up and show myself but I'm not gonna be able to pull the game up for several hours yet

[quiet sapphire]

on top the doorway after elevator?

[pale mist]

In the balcony seating

I'm giving away my secrets here

lol

[quiet sapphire]

ahh those ones

ehh they are very mid

[pale mist]

the chandeliers

Yeah they're an ambush spot, good for a round but they'll be aware after

[quiet sapphire]

very mid also

[pale mist]

Lot of stuff like that

[quiet sapphire]

did you know you can make this jump in 1 jump

[pale mist]

It's not that it's a god spot, it's that it keeps people guessing

I didn't actually

[quiet sapphire]

default speed 1 jump

[pale mist]

Off the thing on the wall surely?

[quiet sapphire]

its the hardest jump rollout in the game haha

iv learned it decently

[quiet sapphire]

the corner has a higher hitbox to stand on

[pale mist]

Interesting I'll have to look into that

[quiet sapphire]

i can coach you that jump 😙

also works with curtain on

[pale mist]

I'd be down for it at some point

This one is the funny museum flank I like

Jump off the second floor railing and you can cut people off at the top

[cedar compass]

That is a very good jump especially if they're staring down the ramp waiting for you to come up

[pale mist]

The ability to cross between the top floors end-to-end is also funny in niche scenarios

ring around the rosey with sable

[quiet sapphire]

this ones nice, tho bad sightline, in most cases people will shoot you while doing this

[pale mist]

Yeah you have to know where they are for this one, or be using a smoke

If they're standing in the crossing instead of going up the ramp it's less favorable

[pale mist]

Yeah from car to second floor is also nice. It basically means you have a central route from floor to 3rd floor without going up the ramps

[quiet sapphire]

this 1 jump rollout from the car is all you need in this map

And theres a ton of 1 jumps to get on top of the wall on the top floor

Thats the thing gt
With moose imo, the most effective rollouts in maps are doable with 1 jump

The only DJ rollouts are too niche to have value from

[pale mist]

I think a lot is workable with one jump, but I think that a lot more opens up with 2

I think the big issue with the card version is its limited duration

(other than the NJ situation)

Since you'd realistically use it for one rotation play and some DM jukery before it wore off

I think that DJ opening up novel routes is really neat, but I also think that its ability to turn more or less binary jumps into ones that you can juke/active play during is important to its value as well

For instance, getting up here is doable with a single jump, but requires you route in certain limiting ways

Being able to just get up there in the flow of a fight, while juking, and while not predictably pathing is I feel very valuable

Forgive that I'm using random YT gameplay backdrop to grab map screencaps atm lol

[quiet sapphire]

Hmm very mid jump also

Not good highground

[pale mist]

Covered from a lot of angles, it's a nice spot for eg molebot

[quiet sapphire]

I can tell you that from burger on top of the high groundn wall is a good DJ rollout

[pale mist]

Like it's nice with DJ from burger in general yeah

You can play essentially all the height objects like a floor

While not being super predictable with linear jumps

[quiet sapphire]

All else is meh, but from burger to dndwall is nice

[pale mist]

Fair. I just like having an entirely secondary plane to my viable movement areas

Floor? What if no floor

[quiet sapphire]

This jump is also nice and easily doable with 1 jump

[pale mist]

Oh yeah the way the tentacle is poised you can scale it without DJ definitely

Though I'm not entirely sure why you would commit the time if you only had 1 jump

[quiet sapphire]

For juking people off with 1 jump parkour skills

[pale mist]

Fear factor I gotcha

[quiet sapphire]

Also i love climbing these trees with 1 jump

[pale mist]

^^ ramps

I very much enjoy stationing a molebot on this corner here

And then using the corner to jump up onto the water tower

If I need to take cover again I can sit on the corner with the bot

[winter palm]

moose does NOT need a buff

[pale mist]

I'd argue that moose does not need the hardest 1card counter in the entire game :V

And also that again, NJ/DJ is a terrible binary dynamic at present even not considering moose

[winter palm]

thats just a bad argument

its timed for one

[pale mist]

I mean there's a whole discussion above

I don't really think the timing on it matters much when it's A, as long as it is, and B, primarily used alongside rushdown

[winter palm]

we're not buffing moose, that's all that should need to be said

[quiet sapphire]

Moose being a straight up nojump counter is also binary

[pale mist]

I think that the value proposition out of NJ should be -1 jump across the whole cast

Not -2 for one character in particular :V

[winter palm]

moose player detected

[pale mist]

As if I'm not clear about that???

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-kitten-tail-suck-tail-gif-21243409

[quiet sapphire]

That would mean moose will thsraight up counter nojump value a ton

[pale mist]

It would just mean that Moose would be impacted the same as the rest. And again, the DJ/NJ dynamic is awful right now with DJ used for no other reason than to cleanse NJ

[winter palm]

have nojump effect everyone but moose sounds terrible I agree with janni

[pale mist]

That's literally not the proposition

[quiet sapphire]

Leavng moose with one jump and denying jump alltogether for other chars id a huge moose buff

[pale mist]

You forget that during NJ every other character still has their personality card :V
And again, Rubber Bulletsing spike does not set them to base damage first
Less accing DJ doesn't reset their acc first
Etc etc etc

The only comparable cases are maybe weapon personality cards, but things like Disarm are situational cards already, and best used not disarming a personality weapon. NJ is always valuable and hits both opponents

[winter palm]

your looking at it all wrong

double jump has way more value than a slight % dmg increase

[pale mist]

I'm literally just saying make it consistent??

[quiet sapphire]

But it would only hit moose leaving him with one jump...

[winter palm]

being able to dny that for 12 seconds isnt as crippling as you make it out

[pale mist]

It would also fix NJ/DJ's second-card wins dynamic where NJ is never wrong to cast out

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/luna-cat-crunchy-cat-glasses-cat-luna-glasses-cat-gif-12732289841207803174

[quiet sapphire]

I guarantee you double jump would still be used the samw

[pale mist]

Nobody is taking NJ specifically for Moose, they're taking it because it's universal goodstuff

[quiet sapphire]

Only save up to counter no jump

[quiet sapphire]

Yes

[winter palm]

this all just sounds like a skill issue

I dont think moose has grounds to stand on ironically

[quiet sapphire]

But with this change would make everone play moose cus nojumpu would affect moose much at all

[winter palm]

yep

[quiet sapphire]

Taking away ability to double jump and to 1 jump from moose is
Trash value compared to taking away ability to jump at all

[winter palm]

every moose player running NJ sounds so fun /j

[thick thicket]

Keep off the Laika @quiet sapphire

https://tenor.com/view/cat-breakdance-fast-fast-cat-dance-gif-27213862

[pale mist]

Okay so the grift is that NJ isn't already universally played and that moose is then?

Like genuinely

[winter palm]

and we're forgetting the fact that having double jump is allot better than 90% the passives.

[quiet sapphire]

Already took it from newest suggestion List

[thick thicket]

Good.

[pale mist]

I feel like that's debatable but I'm listening

[quiet sapphire]

Thats not really true

[pale mist]

Considering I'm giving positive value propositions for double jumps and being told they're mid constantly

[winter palm]

yes it is

[quiet sapphire]

Double jump passive s mid is what im saying

[pale mist]

And then suddenly it's better than everything else when we talk about moose having a single positive card interaction about it

[quiet sapphire]

But i also dont want moose buffed

[pale mist]

Instead of one that's just cripplingly worse than the rest of the casts lol

[quiet sapphire]

Its mid, im used to tracking double jumping mooses

[winter palm]

I cant take this chat seriously anymore

[pale mist]

You're the one who came in here yelling skill issue instead of actually presenting full points goodness

You can disagree but like

[winter palm]

so you missed my point

got it

[pale mist]

The moose pickrate is barely anything in the tourneys and stuff as well. Your point is you value DJ very highly, sure

[quiet sapphire]

Why is DJ passive so good

[winter palm]

moose with nj would be meta

simply put

[quiet sapphire]

I agree with that, and that i dont want moose buffed

[thick thicket]

If you wanna touch a gun @quiet sapphire

[quiet sapphire]

But its realistifally mid tier passive rn

[thick thicket]

Look at the FK

[pale mist]

Right now everybody with NJ is meta

[quiet sapphire]

To buff it?

[pale mist]

I don't see how mooses running it would change anything

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/we-do-a-little-trolling-dance-cat-gif-20547692

[thick thicket]

Yes

[quiet sapphire]

I dont run NJ

[thick thicket]

It sucks

[quiet sapphire]

Maybe

[thick thicket]

It's just GB, but actually dog.

[pale mist]

Anymore maybe, which god bless you about lMAO

[winter palm]

fr, ppl argue just to agrue, doesnt matter how wrong.

[quiet sapphire]

I think about a buff to it

[pale mist]

That was not the case last tourney

[pale mist]

Dude we're discussing, you're the one with the arguing mindset. Condescend harder

[winter palm]

to disagree is to argue, i agree with jani you dont

[quiet sapphire]

Well we've switched to different deck since Double Marge is too easy to win with and meh to watch to

[pale mist]

To disagree in good faith is to debate, not to argue.

And I agree with double marge being just pinnacle boring so that makes sense

But like, NJ is still probably like 90% deck pick rate

[winter palm]

nerf its duration if anything, but buffing moose seems really bad.

[pale mist]

The thing I'm still unsure about is why we think that NJ not completely hypercountering Moose would make them meta, when the current meta picks are all TTK stat based

[quiet sapphire]

Its a good card, but again if you will have more firepower and you are decent with moving without jumping you should win

[quiet sapphire]

It would flip the tables and make it that playing moose counters the nojump

A huge buff to moose

And moose is already in a good spot in the meta

[winter palm]

have your friend take double jump or take it yourself if you really hate nj that much

[pale mist]

But the point you just made is attempting to claim that NJ isn't that impactful. Either NJ is meta defining to a point where having a jump afterward (and no other personality card traits) is strong enough to cement them in meta over the current stat picks like Stevie, or it's not that impactful and you should win dms on TTK, but both arguments side by side are contradictory

[quiet sapphire]

And currently nojump ant that bad, cus its only for one round and doesnt affect firepower

[pale mist]

Basically, a NJ'd Stevie should win against a Moose all things being equal, if we're to take this at face yes?

[quiet sapphire]

If you play well yeah

[winter palm]

based on that logic if both parties play perfect stevie should always win NJ or no NJ

[quiet sapphire]

Nojump is certainly not an autowin card

[pale mist]

So in that case, how is Moose having a jump left after Moose is NJ'd going to upset Stevie as meta?

That's the core question here

[winter palm]

:|

[pale mist]

Because if we're saying Moose is going to be meta we have to ask how they're supposed to be upsetting the current meta with that change

I don't see it

[quiet sapphire]

That a problem with stevie to be nerfed

The core point is that we dont want moose to be buffed

[pale mist]

Sure, but can't we say that of all the current stat picks in meta?

[quiet sapphire]

And we all see moose being in a pretty healthy spot already

[winter palm]

stevie will stay meta I dont see that changing much, if they change gold boira anymore he loses his identity imo

[pale mist]

I really don't think that a change like that would significantly move the needle on Moose's balance, but it would make the NJ/DJ interaction way, way less inconsistent and push it towards healthy.

[quiet sapphire]

But it would be a healthy thing to change no?

[winter palm]

ok will there be a point to pick him?

[thick thicket]

Players just lack skill to kill a Stevie player tbh.

[pale mist]

nod nod agreed
out acc them

[quiet sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/ltg-fgc-ggs-gg-wholesome-gif-26548918

[pale mist]

you only need what, 130-200% of their acc depending on range, you can do it

:D

[winter palm]

DJ can out dps a stevie at range

[quiet sapphire]

Stay long range? get out accuraced and out dmg by falloff, get close? Get landmined or stickied

[quiet sapphire]

Cant*

[thick thicket]

Just don't lack skill I guess? 🤷‍♂️

[quiet sapphire]

Falloff

[winter palm]

nope

weapon spread, stevie cant spray like DJ can

[pale mist]

Boira has like no spread

lol

[winter palm]

its the same spread

lol

[pale mist]

Go test it in shooting range, it isn't

[winter palm]

just slightly less recoil

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh its pretty minimal advantage cus gb has less spread too but + more dmg + no falloff+ more ammo

[winter palm]

it doesnt

just less recoil

if you control the recoil on a boira they're the same

unless you're dj

[quiet sapphire]

But gb has more dmg, no fallof and more ammo

[winter palm]

you wanna test this?

[quiet sapphire]

Test what?

[winter palm]

dps

[pale mist]

Go for it lol stevie will always win that

[winter palm]

ok

[pale mist]

At range you're doing like 15 damage vs 8 or something

you'd have to be hitting near 200% the stevies' acc to win out

[quiet sapphire]

It depends on what range

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/chorãopls-gif-20394848

[winter palm]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1115368270577553459/1220280685441323018/get-real-cat.gif

[winter palm]

a realistic range

[quiet sapphire]

Still will be 2x easier with less efort to match the dps with stevie

[pale mist]

Common range would be from spawn to spawn on Rooftops

[thick thicket]

You forget half of the game can't aim.

[winter palm]

i'll give you stevie would win if he's able to take cover and reset his spread to 1st shot accuracy

[thick thicket]

🤫

[winter palm]

and keep resetting and just chip

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/is-this-real-wtf-cat-wojak-brainlet-gif-17384882

I don't think were old enough for balance changes.

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah, thats what im talking about

[pale mist]

I'd honestly say rooftop to rooftop that Stevie should win the magdump too

[quiet sapphire]

Im ignoring that half

[winter palm]

magdumping is were I disagree

[spark jungle]

Don't nerf Stevie

/ thread 😎

[thick thicket]

Tell em to stop shooting the walls then. )=

[winter palm]

I dont play him anyway, gutt him if you guys want, but its the wrong decision imo.

[pale mist]

What's the right decision then? What's your alternative? lol

[winter palm]

to not touch him

buff other characters

[spark jungle]

Stevie is good as is and can be countered in many ways

If we speak raw characters then yeah he's the strongest in most cases but this is a card game with many things to change that

[quiet sapphire]

Ehh but what about his falloff

[pale mist]

Except you can't imagine a card interaction buff to a character you recognize couldn't even theoretically touch Stevie's place in meta as Stevie is if they got said buff

[quiet sapphire]

Cmon the falloff is stupid being infinite

[winter palm]

is the whooole point of having a gold boira.

[quiet sapphire]

More dmg, more ammo and more accuracy is already good points

[winter palm]

because moose is alrdy really good in the meta.

[thick thicket]

Try make the other friends not dead in the water?

[winter palm]

again it doesnt give more accuracy

[quiet sapphire]

Less aimpunch, tomato tomata

Or recoil

[winter palm]

yes pls

[pale mist]

"Don't change Stevie, buff other characters to match."

"But not that character that I acknowledge that them getting this interaction buff wouldn't touch the top tier presence of the character I asked you not to change"

It doesn't make sense.

[winter palm]

can we discuss how to buff others instead of always talking about nerf this nerf that.

[quiet sapphire]

I mean if ya dont wana nerf stevie buffing moose by the jump change aint that bad

But imo we should nerf stevie a bit and keep moose where shes at

[thick thicket]

You never wanna buff anything I swear 💀

[pale mist]

This is reasonable. One or the other

[winter palm]

we're talking about that wrong characters

they're both fine

[thick thicket]

Fix dale, fix ribberto.

[winter palm]

^

[thick thicket]

Moose is already good. 💀

1+1 = 2.

Not 3

[cedar compass]

Keep Steverto the same; I like playing him into 2x Stevie

[pale mist]

It's not even a direct buff, it's a far bigger buff to Double Jump the card than it is to Moose themselves

[quiet sapphire]

Riberto is unfixable

[pale mist]

DJ is literally unusable except as a cleanse rn

[thick thicket]

So is Laser fence.

[pale mist]

alright I'm gonna make laser fence work now

[near sleet]

I think this is fair, but the game has through history consistently had issues with combos that created problematic issues warranting changes.
Buffing is a lot harder to do as a community as opposed to designers inherently, personally, especially bc I think they game is extremely well balanced in general

[winter palm]

buffing others so theyre on the same level is what we should talk about...

[quiet sapphire]

Kinda but i have more hope to fix fence than ribberto

[near sleet]

I’m curious what buffs you are looking for tho?

[winter palm]

fixing the hitbox for backshots for one

[quiet sapphire]

That gives it decent value

[near sleet]

I don’t think Roberto should change his meant to be the copy character not a legitimate top contender inherently

[quiet sapphire]

Not much wrong with that

[winter palm]

and maybe buffing the numbers if its necessary

[pale mist]

I don't really agree that a 1 card cleanse scope is decent value proposition

[near sleet]

I main Roberto bc he’s fun, not to be competitive with him

[quiet sapphire]

This is priority for Dale imo

[spark jungle]

Ribberto could be fixed if there was a system to change the deck depending on the character you're copying

Like assigning decks to each copy, but that's too much work

[thick thicket]

Repeating ourselves. Again.

Hahaha

Very funnnn

💀

[spark jungle]

About what

I just arrived here

[near sleet]

He should just stay a fun option

Doesn’t need to be changed

[cedar compass]

I died to Laser fence today

[thick thicket]

Just something that was said earlier.

[spark jungle]

He's fun but also useless if you're Ribberto with a Katana with no Sable deck

[quiet sapphire]

Once in a blue moon moment

[spark jungle]

Jani

[near sleet]

I actually disagree

[spark jungle]

This morning

[winter palm]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-revive-friends-animated-friendship-gif-8246087956711984034

[spark jungle]

That Klustr died to his own laser fence

[near sleet]

If you build a deck based on flexibility it’s not hard

[spark jungle]

😎

[quiet sapphire]

Yeah but jayden meant to enemy fence

[thick thicket]

Just gotta stay one step ahead.

💀

[spark jungle]

Doesn't matter

[near sleet]

I run present, disarm, swap weapon, weapon double and have a great matchup into sable

[pale mist]

I'm more interested in using laser fence for the poles, tbh

[quiet sapphire]

Dying to own fence is daily XD

[cedar compass]

I died to enemy one when playing as Sable

[pale mist]

Like as props

[near sleet]

But that’s cuz Ik im playing Ribb and could run into any situation

[thick thicket]

That's being one step ahead.

😎

[near sleet]

So he doesn’t need to change?

[quiet sapphire]

Fun but not viable

[near sleet]

Which is good

[thick thicket]

By running every meta card? Na he still sucks.

[quiet sapphire]

Ribberto should stay a meme char

[thick thicket]

😦

[near sleet]

He should stay that way he’s the mimic character

Ye

[winter palm]

thank you

[quiet sapphire]

I lost all hope for Ribby

[thick thicket]

Well not meta, but busted.

[near sleet]

He should suck tho

[winter palm]

not much we can do for Ribby, unless we look to change his passive

[near sleet]

He’s perfect the way he is and I love him

Leave as is

And the ribb ditto is great

[quiet sapphire]

Ribb is hard mode for fvf

And Stevie is Easymode for fvf

[spark jungle]

Stevie is peak mode of fvf

[winter palm]

yea he doesnt need a change he's probably fine being hard mode as Jani said, but other characters need buffs

[quiet sapphire]

stevie is sleepymode for FvF

[near sleet]

Idk that I would say he’s hard mode that’s a little self-indulgent even for me

[quiet sapphire]

True

[spark jungle]

Remember when everyone cried at release about Sable and she got nerfed despite being ok as it was

That's Stevie now

[winter palm]

true

[near sleet]

99% of the time you just play other high meta characters and it’s just unfocused but not “hard mode” hard mode would just be picking an actually bad character 100% of the time

[winter palm]

she was fine

[quiet sapphire]

I mean, sable needed only a tiny nerf

[spark jungle]

People just didn't want to learn how to play her

[quiet sapphire]

Like to 80 % like it is now

[near sleet]

Stevie is defo like a top 2 char but I don’t think he needs to change

[quiet sapphire]

Stevie need same treatment

[spark jungle]

At release it was fine with the bombs

[quiet sapphire]

Tiny neff

[spark jungle]

Afterwards maybe

[thick thicket]

🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨

Excuse us?

[spark jungle]

Bro Stevie already got the tiny nerf lol

[quiet sapphire]

When she was 10 bullets with 95% dmg reduction

[near sleet]

Sable I do believe deserved a change bc I think her being as good as she was was bad for the game regardless of actuall tier list (defo weak rn tho and could use the buff)

[quiet sapphire]

It was a bit overtuned

[spark jungle]

On release she was fine

I played Jani a lot back then before the nerf

And it was easy to counter just with bombs

[near sleet]

Release was problematic bc we also didn’t have the same tools vs her and the ones we did were shut outs

[quiet sapphire]

That was a bomb problem

Not sable being weak

[spark jungle]

Yeah, which made Sable easy to deal with

I never said she's weak

[near sleet]

Bombs or nuke moly or pre nerf move speed or speed down made the sable matchup so bad for sable, it was bad in both directions

[spark jungle]

I said she was fine, and counterable, but people cried for an unnecessary nerf at the time

[quiet sapphire]

If they just nerfed the bombs and kept sable at 10ammo 95reduction sable would have been op

[spark jungle]

Yes because bombs was a counter

I'm talking about the situation

[near sleet]

But being counterable so drastically in either direction isn’t fun/good design even if it’s technically “balanced”

[spark jungle]

At release people didn't need to cry about it so much, later sure

Now it's the same with Stevie because Sable is a non issue

[near sleet]

That’s why she needed to be changed along with everything else

Which they did a good job of

[winter palm]

new players with bad aim definatly struggle against her.

[near sleet]

So she can be buffed a little now

[quiet sapphire]

Now is the same with stevie but there are not counters to stevie like sable had bombs

[near sleet]

But Stevie is not as swingy in either direction

[cedar compass]

Other than just, play the counter Stevie and DM better

[near sleet]

He’s just slightly overturned

[quiet sapphire]

That means Stevie deserves a tiny nerf

[near sleet]

This isn’t healthy either

[quiet sapphire]

Agreed

[winter palm]

sable is in a good place rn, i do wish she could get her old hitbox back but i understand why not

[near sleet]

Honesty I’m not worried abt Stevie nerf he’s close enough to balanced the game has bigger concerns

[quiet sapphire]

I agree

[near sleet]

She is in a good place

[spark jungle]

But is that a character balance issue?

[quiet sapphire]

Kinda yeah but, its still boring Stevie keeps being s tier for so long and for a boring stat diff GB reason

[near sleet]

I mean yeah

[winter palm]

no its a skill issue

[near sleet]

It doesn’t mean it should be changed

[quiet sapphire]

Nope

[near sleet]

But it is a char design concern

[thick thicket]

Skill issue for sure

[near sleet]

It just doesn’t mean we should do anything about it

[quiet sapphire]

The reason why Sable got nerfed is because bombs needed to get nerfed not because noobs cried

[near sleet]

That’s true, the issue is just they don’t want to hit gb anymore which sucks bc gb is already bad

[spark jungle]

Sable got nerfed because noobs cried 24/7 lol

Did you forget the reviews and forums at the time

[winter palm]

100% bc noobs cried

[spark jungle]

It was all people crying about Sable players

[near sleet]

Ehhhhhhh

[quiet sapphire]

Nope, its because bombs neede to be nerfed

[near sleet]

Like 70%

[quiet sapphire]

And if bpmbe wdre to be nerfed

[thick thicket]

It's actually true.

[quiet sapphire]

Sable would have been op

[spark jungle]

The bombs were nerfed afterwards, no?

[thick thicket]

Steam community was baby rage mode.

[quiet sapphire]

At the same time

[spark jungle]

I remember the bomb nerf push was after players like me started using them all the time

[quiet sapphire]

Thats what im saying

[spark jungle]

Against Sables and others

[winter palm]

bombs did get a justified nerf

[spark jungle]

And because double Lars

Yes they did

Although they were fun as hell

[near sleet]

Trust me I was there, I think the severity of the changes were bc of noob out cry but I do think the game is broadly in a better space with her being at least somewhat nerfed

Double Lars was much worse tho

[quiet sapphire]

I remember sable nerf the same time as bombs got nerfed

[spark jungle]

The game had a lot of changes because noobs cried: like adding SBMM instead of level based matchmaking 😎

[near sleet]

Let’s be real this doesn’t matter

I mean at least on east coast servers

[spark jungle]

It does, made the experience worse for new players actually lol

[near sleet]

There aren’t enough players for it to matter

[winter palm]

we did agree she's in a good spot rn, she doesnt need any changes.

[thick thicket]

That took a while.

😢

[spark jungle]

Not now but back then it did matter for a bit

And in the end it didn't because high players could just disable it and match lower ones

[quiet sapphire]

But seriously, if only bombs would have got nefrfed and sable didnt, she would have genuonly been op char

[near sleet]

Maybe fair, I took a short break for a bit

[spark jungle]

When SBMM was added people cried on forums again... "Why am I matching up lvl 100's????"

Well guess what, you asked for it lmao

[near sleet]

Sure

I’m p happy with the matchmaking rn imo

[quiet sapphire]

I do remember people wanting ranked but it not particularly sbmm

[spark jungle]

Matchmaking right now is very good

Best it has ever been

[near sleet]

It feels closer to true random matchmaking just bc of the population

[winter palm]

sbmm and ranked was a mistake, i miss playing without worrying about rank and just played this game to chill

[spark jungle]

The Steam reviews were plagued with bad reviews because "muh SBMM is not there"

Ranked I don't care because it's meaningless, SBMM was 100% a mistake though

[near sleet]

I do appreciate that but I am a personal fan of the ranked system

[quiet sapphire]

I like ranked but it was too early and badly implemented for this game

[spark jungle]

Ranked at least gives something for players to play after they unlock everything

[winter palm]

cant say that for the friends you play with if you suck you worry about stressing them.

[near sleet]

I wanted them to let ranked be handled like yomi hustle in that it’s a seperate server handled by the community not the game

[quiet sapphire]

I like goals to play for and ranked in general

[near sleet]

But the way they did implement it I am in favor of bc it remind me of clash Royale in that because every game is ranked and their aren’t resets it doesn’t matter

I understand that’s not everyone’s experience however

[winter palm]

I get the appeal but I dont think it was for this game, I hope they add something more casual down the line so more ppl can enjoy the game.

[quiet sapphire]

Devs should add bff rewards and resets to ranked

[near sleet]

My take is that by making every game ranked it’s still always casual

[near sleet]

I don’t like resets imo, that would make it feel waaaay less casual

[quiet sapphire]

I believe in competetive sife of FvF this game has so much potential for tournament gameming and skill expression

[near sleet]

And a real grind as opposed to number go up

[spark jungle]

At its core FvF is a casual game tho

[near sleet]

Oh for sure but I’d like to see community tourneys for that not in game resets

[spark jungle]

Not every game has to be overly competitive

[near sleet]

So they said abt smash tho

[cedar compass]

It's also better to have a game be casual and make competitive things within it

Not have a competitive game and make it casual

[near sleet]

Which I think the way they have handled it is well implemented

[spark jungle]

Smash offers enough customization to be a competitive game, at its core though... it is casual

[cedar compass]

Precisely

[spark jungle]

I'm not saying there's no place for competitive in FvF

But FvF is not a competitive game first, casual second

[cedar compass]

I mean, let's look at Halo 3 for instance; that shit is loaded with Casual gaming with different modes, but still has its own competitive sandbox

[quiet sapphire]

I dont think so, the game being fps with a complex card combos and deckbuilding

[spark jungle]

Halo 3 THE GOAT 🐐

Peak gaming

[quiet sapphire]

That a breeding groud for competetie gaming

[cedar compass]

Can you imagine the BR in FvF

👀

[spark jungle]

XBR

let's go

[spark jungle]

Yes but again it's not the main focus of the game or how it was designed

[pale mist]

I think this one is definitely a little more complex than just that. I don't think you have to be missing your shots for Sable to be a problem given how it cuts boira damage to 1-2, and has a 2tap headshot TTK of about half a second from 150.

Let's say when the Sable moves to close the gap they block 7/12 and you land 5, you've done like 73 with 100% accuracy and you have to reload while their TTK vs you is less than the time of the reload with headshots, or about the same time without.

In a 2s setting, this makes Sable a bit of a conundrum-- Maybe you try to focus them, but on its face, prioritizing the 80% damage resisting target for the opener of the fight is going to put you on the back foot while their backliner has a lot more free reign to do whatever (This being precisely what makes Stevie Sable so strong)

If you don't try to focus them, instead opting to try to clear the backline threat, Sable threatens a 2-3 tap in sub-second TTKs if they ever get onto you.

I don't think Sable is inherently like, some monstrous issue, but I definitely think that they get a lot of value just for existing, and I think reducing that to "skill issue" isn't helpful to the conversation

[near sleet]

I dont think anything is gained from arguing about some nonspecific “core” of the game, it matters for dev design philosophy but as end users we can only direct where we believe the game should go,

[spark jungle]

Look at Super Mario 64

It's not a game that was designed for speedrunning

But now it's like the peak for player expression

[cedar compass]

Though in this game, it would be hitscan versus pseudo projectile

[quiet sapphire]

I feel its perfectly desingned for competetive gaming

[spark jungle]

I mean ask the devs

I'm sure they made the game just for friends to have fun playing around not for ultra serious tournaments

[quiet sapphire]

Againf with being and overly complex card combo fps

[pale mist]

I don't think Sable's in a bad place (though I do question katana headshotting as that two tap is dirty), but I think the conversation is definitely nuanced

[spark jungle]

If I'm able to understand FvF I wouldn't say it's overly complex

[near sleet]

Fvf is like perfectly designed to be competitive even if it wasn’t original intention and I think that like smash the devs should recognize and allow for this while not. Compromising on the game they want to make which in my opinion n think they have done an excellent job of

[quiet sapphire]

The game woukd be perfect and a hit if the devs focused on the competetive side of this game

[near sleet]

Admittedly I do believe the game is fairly simple, there is theoretically a lot to learn in terms of the amount you can learn but that’s just like memorizing cards, the gameplay itself isn’t overly complex

[spark jungle]

No it'd have been abandoned instantly by the super tryhards the moment they see people teleporting

[cedar compass]

Or falling through the floor

Can't forget that one

[near sleet]

It’s like learning all the items in smash, lot of items, not complex

[winter palm]

they did, they openly admitted it to being a game they made they can casually play during their lunch breaks.

[spark jungle]

Again I'm not saying FvF can't be competitive

Just that the game wasn't designed with it in mind

[quiet sapphire]

Its as complex but in a more compressed package

[spark jungle]

So that's why there's so much stuff that is just broken, or useless

It's meant to just be fun

[near sleet]

No it’s too niche a game inherently, cartoony, tongue and cheek, and furry, it was destined to be a cult classic

[quiet sapphire]

Id say FvF is as complex as Csgo

[spark jungle]

No way

No

[thick thicket]

LMAO

[cedar compass]

Hard disagree

[thick thicket]

NOOOO

[near sleet]

No

Sorry

[pale mist]

I'd agree that stuff is built to just be fun for sure and

As m;uch as I hate CS:GO I don't agree there hahahah

[spark jungle]

High level CSGO is chess

[cedar compass]

Damn, so many people were on that message LOL

[quiet sapphire]

Pff maybe its just me hating cs

[near sleet]

Arguing over which game is more “competitive” is splitting hairs and silly bc it’s about how a community interacts with it, but it simply is not more complex

[quiet sapphire]

Boring ahh game

[spark jungle]

Skill issue 😎

[thick thicket]

It's actually called CS2.

[near sleet]

Fair, but your trying to catch strays

[spark jungle]

🤓

[pale mist]

I could rant so much about """""""Tactical""""""" shooters whose idea of tactics is having bullets fly sideways out of your gun

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-emoji-nerdge-gif-23738139

[pale mist]

But they still have depth even if I hate the execution

[spark jungle]

CS is more arcade than tactical

[near sleet]

That’s why r6 is the best one

[quiet sapphire]

I personally think FvF is pretty damn complex in high skill play

[spark jungle]

CS is its own thing

[pale mist]

Kraz that's actually about how I feel when watching them

It does tactics but doesn't do accuracy bs

[near sleet]

R6 has the worst community by far tho

[cedar compass]

FvF definitely has its complexities entrenched with card strategy and economy versus your raw DM ability

[quiet sapphire]

R6 is the worst

[near sleet]

Preach

[winter palm]

isnt CS the tactical shooter everyone is basing their tactical shooters on

[near sleet]

Yeah

Basically

[quiet sapphire]

Make a tiny peepwhole to camp and oneshot people with

[spark jungle]

Yes but CS is like... classic tactical

[near sleet]

It’s just defined its own genre but that doesn’t mean it’s the best

[spark jungle]

And it's less tactical than classic R6

CS is its own thing, no game does it like it

[pale mist]

Yeah I can agree

[near sleet]

actual skill diff

[pale mist]

And I love some of the concepts in CS2 and the volumetric smokes are so so neat

I just hate that the gunplay makes me want to vom

[quiet sapphire]

I hate r6 even nore than cs

[spark jungle]

I like the CS gunplay

Feels super nice

[thick thicket]

Where is the mini pc? @spark jungle

[spark jungle]

Specially in CS2 it's punchy

[thick thicket]

😎

[spark jungle]

My dad has it

[quiet sapphire]

I only like cs for the armsrace

[thick thicket]

Love me some CS2

[spark jungle]

Any way we're derailing this, FvF is never going to be as complex as high level Quake duels or CS

[near sleet]

Back on topic lol, I didn’t know there was outcry about dale hitboxes?

[spark jungle]

FvF can be competitive (and is), it just wasn't designed as a competitive game

[cedar compass]

@pale mist Quake Live was mentioned 👀

[spark jungle]

We actually met last night in Quake Live 😎

[near sleet]

lol don’t get me started on competitive and then talk about arena shooters like quake

[winter palm]

there should be, ive tested them and they're really bad sometimes.

[spark jungle]

?

[pale mist]

I still think it's so f;unny I saw you on QL yesterday Gras

That was the first time I had launched the game in over 6 years

[spark jungle]

I just wanted to test some lightning gun duels to show a friend lmao

[near sleet]

I’m not disbelieving I’m just curious do you have pictures of this I could look at? Or some physical proof

[quiet sapphire]

Nonono its desing is perfect for being competetive, its just that the devs are handling it as a casual game and adding stuff like .... waro room or lazer fence...

[spark jungle]

And all I got was a 24 player server on small maps

[cedar compass]

Bruh I want a lightning gun in FvF 😩

[pale mist]

It makes me really sad that's all that's left of FFA

[spark jungle]

Myk

Is literally a lightning gun

[pale mist]

I love watching duels, but I love PLAYING FFA at high level

[spark jungle]

Same damage as Quake even

[cedar compass]

Huh, in a weird sense, you're kinda right

[pale mist]

8p FFA in quake was my jam, grandmaster ladder shit

[near sleet]

Interesting idea actually?

[quiet sapphire]

The desing is perfect but the devs are not exploring its competetive side

[spark jungle]

Too bad Diabotical died

[near sleet]

Probably ends up being bad like flamethrower tho

[spark jungle]

It was great

[cedar compass]

I want my cross map laser to burn Stevie

[pale mist]

oop I didn't realize diabotical died

It was on epic game store so I didn't play it often either

[spark jungle]

I mean, I think it's still around? But nobody plays it

[quiet sapphire]

Flame got buffed to op tho lol

[spark jungle]

I loved it at release, even made designs for the streamer things on Twitch

Got me a good viewerbase for like a week

[pale mist]

I want a proper FVF rocket launcher

let me rocket jump please god

lol

[near sleet]

The reason I ask is bc I believe the hitbox should be small and “bad” as a balancing factor but if they don’t at all reflect the model that’s a different question

[spark jungle]

FvF Arena mode as it was announced in the Steam page 😎

[near sleet]

Really? It still feels worse than broomstick imo

[cedar compass]

TF2 Rocket Duels, fuck your No Jump I will blast my legs off to fly ✈️

[near sleet]

Oh please

Prolly too good tho

The maps aren’t designed for it

Probably neither the physics

[quiet sapphire]

The back hitxbox only moves in y x axis

[pale mist]

Yeahhhh that's the kicker is the maps designs

[near sleet]

Oh what

[winter palm]

arc throower

[near sleet]

Which is a shame cuz the maps are incredibly designed

[quiet sapphire]

Even if enemy is lookinf down. And showing the back and the x marker to somebody who is on top of enemy it wont give you backshots

[winter palm]

it doesnt reflect the model

[near sleet]

Okay that’s fair then

I’d like to see that implemented as a bug fix then for sure

I like dale a lot tho

[cedar compass]

🤨 Trucks exists though (I'm very biased I just don't like Trucks)

[near sleet]

If I wasn’t committed to Robb I’d prolly main dale

[winter palm]

me too, he has some potential

[quiet sapphire]

It shoots through walls

[near sleet]

I mean sure

[winter palm]

you and me both

[near sleet]

But that seems counter able?

I haven’t played someone abusing that tho

[near sleet]

Trucks is the one map that has some legitimate issues fair

But I think it’s like theoretically a good map

[quiet sapphire]

Somevody from last tourney does

[cedar compass]

Like I'm fine with small maps, but I really don't like asymmetric map design

[quiet sapphire]

^

[spark jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/tyler-lie-lol-not-telling-the-truth-that-was-a-lie-gif-13885912

[winter palm]

that with all the hazards and occasional clipping through a car to insta-die

[quiet sapphire]

But its fine cus you flip spawns every round

[near sleet]

Well no asym spawns can still be bad

But I think trucks is not egregious in that respect

[cedar compass]

Looking at you Nuke arena

[near sleet]

The issue is the stage hazards

[near sleet]

Omg yes

[quiet sapphire]

Thats a spawn issue

[near sleet]

Nuke has one specific spawn that I’ve dubbed “bad spawn” literally bc it’s so much worse than the rest of them

[winter palm]

I think thats intentional for the disign of the card.

[cedar compass]

Which is inherently a map issue

[near sleet]

The one out in the open between the high ground and pipe is so fucking bad

[winter palm]

but it would be nice if nuke always threw you on opposite sides of the map

[quiet sapphire]

Not asymmetric issue

[near sleet]

I like that there is a bunch of spawns but that one specifically should be deleted

[quiet sapphire]

Just map spawn issue

[thick thicket]

Nerf stevie

🤓

[quiet sapphire]

He has spoken the truth!!

[winter palm]

dont get them started again jakob :(

[thick thicket]

Making Ruki loose his mind.

[cedar compass]

It should be a reset, not a 50/50 whether you get Stevie on Stevie sandwich

[thick thicket]

🫡

[near sleet]

Trucks is good bc it functions as a close range fast paced version of standard maps like rooftops, the issues arise when you get randomly fucked by the stage hazards aspect of it

[spark jungle]

😳

[quiet sapphire]

Randomly?

[cedar compass]

[near sleet]

“Randomly”

Like how sometimes it doesn’t bounce you on road and you take twice the dmg

Or how no jump is especially fucke on that map

[thick thicket]

Remember to vote in the tournament info guys.

😎

[quiet sapphire]

Thats just skill issue on jumping off the map

[near sleet]

Or the one gap that doesn’t do 30 dmg and instead instantly kills you

[thick thicket]

For the card ban.

[quiet sapphire]

Lets gooo!!!

[thick thicket]

I voted no.

[spark jungle]

@quiet sapphire are we playing or no

[thick thicket]

l0l

[winter palm]

me too

💀

[quiet sapphire]

Pff cmon guys

[cedar compass]

Graslu let's team up; some Spike and Stevie action to stomp winners haha

[near sleet]

Yeah card profanity is still fucked up

[winter palm]

we know ppl are going to say yes so why not say no

[quiet sapphire]

Theres nothign interesting in everyone running profaner

[spark jungle]

maybe

[thick thicket]

I like easy mode tho.

[spark jungle]

I have to check on my duos

[spark jungle]

You don't play

[thick thicket]

Play with Dracolio.

[quiet sapphire]

Ill confirm soon

[spark jungle]

😎

[thick thicket]

You don't ask. 😎

[spark jungle]

Man can't even type his name

[thick thicket]

Smh.

[cedar compass]

pffff

[thick thicket]

Not good with Spanish names.

Smh.

[spark jungle]

Darcohólico 😎

[thick thicket]

[cedar compass]

It's spelt the way it sounds

Beauty of Spanish

[thick thicket]

Just ask and we play. 😎

[spark jungle]

He used to just be Darcólico tho just call him Darco

[spark jungle]

You don't play the tourneys

[thick thicket]

He's pretty chill.

[thick thicket]

Ask.

[winter palm]

would be interesting if Lex still played

[spark jungle]

@thick thicket let's duo

[thick thicket]

Will check on the date.

With the schedule.

[pale mist]

If one spawn is favorable it's a bo5 so the first team to spawn there is favored to win overall

[thick thicket]

Having a life sometime sucks. 😭

[spark jungle]

Be a streamer

Decide your schedule

😎

[thick thicket]

Get me an audience.

😎

[near sleet]

It’s also just poor design to have a swingy map regardless

Again

[pale mist]

Gas station is a big example imo

[near sleet]

Difference between “good design” and “balanced”

[pale mist]

Station spawn > car wash

[quiet sapphire]

We dont know man

[winter palm]

yes we do

[near sleet]

Car wash isn’t as bad as ppl think it is but that’s a good example yeah

[quiet sapphire]

I really hope it gets banned

[near sleet]

It’s worse in 2v2 than 1v1

[winter palm]

i dont think it matters that much ether way

[spark jungle]

Become a FvF Stevie vtuber

[quiet sapphire]

I havent seen a singel argumwment on how profaner is a healthy skillful card

[quiet sapphire]

I think it does

[thick thicket]

Stevie V tuber.

[winter palm]

if the most skilled player still wins not really

[near sleet]

Imo, that map was the start of my conspiracy that they are gonna add a 1v1v1 mode to the game

[quiet sapphire]

Everyone has to run profaner everytlem, now it woud be first profanerless tournament

No more profaner rng bullshit

[winter palm]

metas exist

[near sleet]

I think we should at least vote to ban it to see how we feel about it, the truth is that even if people choose not to ban it, if we played a tourney without it, I don’t think ppl would rly be missing it

At least the audience I mean

Players maybe

[winter palm]

lets not forget this is a card game, yes its going to rely on some rng.

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the thing, the team thats draws a better profaner can win even tho other theam has more skill

[near sleet]

Let’s not act like profaner is fair

[spark jungle]

Half of everything is luck 😎

[near sleet]

Or an earlier one

[cedar compass]

And the other half?

[spark jungle]

Fate.

[winter palm]

technically it is if everyone runs it.

[cedar compass]

https://tenor.com/bKT3S.gif

[quiet sapphire]

But profsner exaggerated the rngness for no reason than being op

[near sleet]

But each individual round will be more random

Again

Maybe “technically” “balanced”

Still not good or healthy

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the problem at that point the team that draws a better profaner has huge advantage

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/we-do-a-little-trolling-dance-cat-gif-20547692

[cedar compass]

If I ever won a card background tournament, I would want to get the other part of that quote as a card

[winter palm]

not really, what wins rounds is strong combos with some decent gunplay. profaner can just help you get it back sometimes.

[near sleet]

And how do people get those strong combos?

Do they perhaps draw a card that emphasizes how many or what combos they get

[winter palm]

people acting like it always gets you back the combo, but thats very rarely the case.

[spark jungle]

Goes hard ngl it fits the game perfectly 😎

[near sleet]

EXACTLY

making it rng

Unfun

And poor design for a tournament

[spark jungle]

You can save until you get profaner or get profaner first round

[near sleet]

Not all items in smash or instant wins

[quiet sapphire]

Getting back strong combos = equals to you having more strong combos

[near sleet]

We still choose to turn them off

[near sleet]

And if you don’t get the combo , your opponent might

Not to mention if you get it early you can manage/choose what you get back

Which is just true rng of when you draw it

EXTREMELY unhealthy

[quiet sapphire]

Also profaner by itself enables strong stack combos

[near sleet]

Especially in 2v2 where you get Les individual cards

[quiet sapphire]

It does everything

[near sleet]

Lthe way they fixed it wasn’t nerfing the card but making it rng, that isn’t healthy in a competitive environment

[winter palm]

there are single cards that counter these combos there are cards that are specifically designed to do so, if you dont have an aswer for them thats on you (and some tcg classic rng)

[near sleet]

I respect even if I disagree with them keeping it in the game

I just think it makes sense to try a community tourney without it

[winter palm]

making it rng helped balance it a bit, idk what you mean.

[near sleet]

It balanced it by making it random

[quiet sapphire]

Didnt affect at all early profaners

[near sleet]

That isn’t healthy in a competitive environment

[quiet sapphire]

Thats the problem

[near sleet]

It makes sense in casual

But I vote for the tourney ban

[winter palm]

ik thats why i say it helped, but its not perfect.

[near sleet]

so it should be banned in community tourney

[quiet sapphire]

I could have saif the same thing about sddit was op card that finally got nerfed

[near sleet]

Exactly

[winter palm]

makes room for more strong combos

[near sleet]

How many times will people defend the most egregious combos in this game by saying that counters exist

They never needed to nerf bombs you guys

You could just play ice block

Cmon guys counters exist

[quiet sapphire]

You card defennd an op card by just saying its a cardgame

[near sleet]

And they didn’t nerf sd by making it random, they just nerfed it

[winter palm]

but it is a cardgame

[quiet sapphire]

The funny thing is that profaner cant be countered as a card

[near sleet]

Much healthier for competitive

[near sleet]

Yes but that isn’t a defense

[quiet sapphire]

And cardgames still need BALANCING

[winter palm]

in the aspect of rng yes it is, since THATS what we were talking about, rng...

[near sleet]

Yeah even if you can counter the cards you get from it, it’s still a +2

Which is BUSTED

[quiet sapphire]

And thats not a defence for it

[near sleet]

Sorry, it is a defense it’s just shit

[winter palm]

huh

cardgames have rng

your saying it shouldnt be rng

[near sleet]

Do you play any card games?

[quiet sapphire]

It can give you tiny and mind blow for example. 2 4cost card for the price of 1 4cost catd

[winter palm]

wdym 😅

[near sleet]

Like real physical ones

Like magic or yugioh or Pokémon

Or whatever

[quiet sapphire]

Stricly speaking card profaner can be 8 cost value

[near sleet]

Or deck builder tabletop games

[near sleet]

The issue is that it might technically be balanced at 6 or 7 but it’s still a bad design even if it becomes unplayable

[quiet sapphire]

The less rng withing a card game the better

[thick thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-lightyear-toy-story-no-sign-intelligence-intelligent-gif-7535671

[near sleet]

The rng is the cards you draw, not the ones you play

[winter palm]

bruh, its the nature of cardgames

yes when it comes to building a deck

you want less rng

but its how the game works

there will be rng

[quiet sapphire]

You are right!!!

We want less rng by nerfing an op card

[near sleet]

Cant wait for the 8 cost flip a coin if heads instantly kill you opp card, its balanced bc its a card game guys

[quiet sapphire]

Thats all we want

[quiet sapphire]

Have you heard of black lotus

Op card i a card game

[winter palm]

i never said anything about removing rng

[near sleet]

It doesn’t even rly matter that’s it’s rng, the issue is it’s unhealthy for a competitive environment rng or no

[quiet sapphire]

^

You defended rng here

[winter palm]

yes defending it is not saying it should be removed

wut