#The Katana needs to be changed.

94 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

mystic iron
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(Hidden parts are spoilers for anyone who has not unlocked certain characters or cards)

I've seen alot of posts about the Katana as well as caught an earful from both my friends and even steam messages complaining about this dam thing, so lets talk about it for a second.

The Katana is an incredibly powerful weapon, which only has a handful of counters. That being:

-explosives/throwable cards

  • certain cards that turn you invulnerable||Tin Man and Heartless (heartless to an extent)||
    -automatic weapons or ||Myk who starts with one||
    -some kinda movement speed difference via cards or the character ||Haru||
    -and big maps like Rooftops or using the ||Nuke|| card

Despite there being quite a bit of counters, I've heard nothing but complaints and rage quits just for simply seeing the Katana or ||Sable who starts with it||. A lot of the times for ||Sable|| I get rage quit on before the match even begins. And looking at these counters, I can see why.

-with explosives, you have a pretty high chance of accidentally killing yourself ||(unless you play Lars)||, especially on the smaller maps. The whole point of the Katana is rush down. Most of the time you will be throwing the explosives at your own feet.
-movement speed differences are the Katana's biggest strength. However, there is currently only 1 card in the game to decrease movement speed while there is 2 for increasing movement speed, though one is temporary. Not to mention ||Haru starts with movement speed up|| base, meaning you'd have to pop a combination of 2 movement cards just to be faster than them.
-while ||Myk and Haru|| can be direct counters to the Katana or ||Sable|| I don't imagine anyone wants to pick a character just to counter a singular card.

The main issue with these counters is that they are either entirely based on luck (being cards obtained or map pick) or force you to play a a certain character.

The easiest way I can see to fix the Katana to make enjoyable to fight against while not nerfing it into the ground is simply change the blocking negation based on weapons. Automatic weapons should still only hit for 1 damage if blocking, they have big ammo counts and can very easily break through the Katana's guard. However, the standard and gold pistol, revolver, and sniper should not do only 1 damage on block. Their small clips make it nearly impossible to break through the Katana's guard and I think increasing the damage they do when blocked will make it at least doable to win the fight against a Katana.

vague compass
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I think katana is polarizing.

I'd probably advocate for a change from the "ammo" to a shield value. Have it take normal damage from weapons, that way stuff like the sniper can deal with it decently. Probably like 60 "shield" hp for the katana. Alternatively if the katana only blocked like a zone of your hitbox, so like arms, torso, and maybe half of your head, it would have a bit more counterplay, you'd just have to aim differently to beat it.

I'd also advocate for a way to throw the katana and return to the pistol. It's the one of the only 2 weapons in the game that can completely be shut down by certain characters. It's really awful running into the speed character as the sword character. (Grenade launcher into lars is another thing, but there isn't a character that starts with a grenade launcher, so it's less problematic) It also can be shut down completely by certain cards, to the point that you basically don't get to play unless you bring a weapon card to swap out from the katana, and then also draw that weapon when you need it. Therefore being able to at least revert to the pistol only in the case of the katana I think would be good.

vital hatch
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The thing is. i dont think the katana is good, actually i think playing Sable is one of the worst gun characters. with only 2 weapons beeing outclassed by the Katana, having to run up, shooting your own explosives beeing a thing, a handful of good card counters + it beeing bed by default on 2 maps + on theater you can cheese katana players. The Katana is dependend on having 2 active movement speed difference cards for what i experienced, the Katana is quite bad as long as you know how to play against it.

blissful latch
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I've been doing a lot of filthy katana builds with Sable, and I think either making it block less damage or decreasing it's "blocking hitbox" are the way to go. On that note though, I have noticed that even with more blocks in the tank, I still get full damage sometimes when it seems like someone hits my legs/feet.

I picked up on the katana strategy pretty quickly and early because:

  1. I suck at aiming at things up close, and
  2. so would other people, probably.

It's puts the onus of figuring out a strategy on my opponent. Mine is always going to be the same, unless you are double jumping and using the terrain advantageously, in which case my only hope is having a gun+weapon buff like poison.

The amount of times I just pop a speed buff or slow and win quite easily whilst my opponent has exhausted their hand round 1 is shockingly high. If I get to two wins with similar strategies it's all over because then I have 7+ cards at my disposal to nuke my opponent into oblivion.

A quick edit for my win-rates, and now that I'm getting pretty high level, I'm noticing a big preference towards mobility characters, which seems to have balanced out my win rates a lot more than earlier on in my katana career. Matches usually feel pretty one sided in either way though.

vital hatch
blissful latch
vital hatch
# blissful latch Harus who can aim are my bane. I need some lucky bombs or CC with throwables to ...

Yeh thats Linda my Point. With equal Movespeed Katana cannot Play the round. So Katana is forced to Play at least +1 Card per round Just by playing Katana. Then Base weapon has high fore rate (so do the weapons that are comming with chars) so by Default your enemy has a weapon that is decent in breaking Block. You are extremely vulnerable since your Goal is very predictable: get Close. There is an insane ammount of cards to counters Katana + Haru forces you to Play +2 cards wich is basicly Instant surrender

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I think the Main Problem ist that a majority of Players dont know how to Play against Katana, and Panic on seeing someone rushing at them.

blissful latch
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it also probably doesn't help because it's a far step out from the usual "mid/long range gunfights", causing frustrations that way

vital hatch
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I would suggest two Things: Block is more of an ability then an ammo consumption Thing you activate IT --> you deflect incoming bullets Into the direction of your crosshair for a short ammount of Time.

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And secondly Something that makes it less in Level with gapclosing, maybe a small dash

blissful latch
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I think those things would make it stand a better chance in a meta sense, but I don't think those would necessarily feel all that good to play against, at least at a casual level.

Maybe some huge risk/reward system, like just being able to yeet your sword at someone for big damage, leaving you exposed for a short time whilst you "reload". That way it's an obvious "Hey I'm vulnerable now more than ever, but I did so because you're about to take some potentially lethal damage". That way there's something to look forward to on both sides of the fight.

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One big issue with the throw/dash is that it'd require an extra button input, which makes it a bit of a design issue because no other weapon has had a "third mode" attached to it (katana can attack/block, sniper can shoot/zoom).

vital hatch
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The Thing is current Katana doesnt feel good for casuals aswell. What about having the Attack beeing a charged Attack with a small dash? To Not have this get Close and spamm left MB

gleaming walrus
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Or maybe the Katana could give a passive speed boost?

vital hatch
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Otherwise its basicly 2 cards in one and steals a very important disadvantage

craggy mango
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right now it makes almost every weapon deal no damage and is just a game of tag, but if they were to impliment some system where katana could make you have some kind of dash every time you use the slash but nerf the blocking i think thatd offset the power of faster movement on it

dusky cradle
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At the end of the day, it needs to be something that's fun to play with and against. With the right deck, it feels impossible to deal with unless you're running a character with high speed. running away from the katana isn't fun or engaging. makes a short game feel like a slug. If I would change it, I'd get rid of block but up the damage. That way it's only used once you get up close and personal with a player. Similar to the boomstick. The block makes it almost useless to shoot at and feels hopeless.

vague compass
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I do think it's worth pointing out that beating the katana doesn't require a specific deck. Most decks end up running counters just because it gets countered by so much, and you can beat it without countering it.

It needs the block, partially due to the katana character, and partially because it needs to do -something- when you're more than a foot away from the opponent. Removing the block but increasing the damage makes the katana way less fun to use or play against, because as a user you can't do anything until you're close now, with no way to get close, and as someone playing against it, a katana in close range means you die before you can really have a chance.

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The katana character brings out the worst qualities of the katana, as if you were any other character, you'd just use the katana when you were already in close range. But sable can't do that. You're forced to rely on being faster than the opponent, or somehow ambushing them and then tracking their movement well for long enough to kill them.

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And then if your opponent has a counter? Just give up, you literally cannot play.

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This is why I advocate for throwing the katana as a buff, because sometimes you literally just can't use it. Chucking it could deal damage, and resetting to pistol at least allows you to deal with scenarios that the katana couldn't. If katana needs to also be nerfed in some ways to allow this to work, that's fine. But katana does need help specifically for the katana character

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And as far as the suggestion of giving it a dash/charge, I don't really feel like that helps where katana is bad, it just makes the situations where it's good much better

dusky cradle
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Sounds like at the end of the day, sounds like it's a matter of should games be decided based on counters. not small ones like "helmet vs big head"

vague compass
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It's mostly about countering an entire character, more than just counters in general

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If sable didn't exist, this conversation wouldn't either

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No other character just gets dumped on like sable, lol

quasi trench
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What if sable had the ability to throw and recall the katana after a cooldown?

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And then lowering the amount of shots you could block

vital hatch
dusky cradle
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I highly doubt it's 10 shots. The amount of mags I've dumped into katanas while only getting 1 damage a bullet is way too many.

vital hatch
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So tbh you Not beeing able to kill a Katana with everything but Sniper and revo With other cards in the Side is pretty much heavy Skill issue. Though If you Miss half a mag i doubt youd kill that Guy If He Had a different weapon

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Since Katana Block seems to increases your hitbox even

lost elk
dusky cradle
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That explains so much. Knowing that will probably help deal with them. Still a pain and not a great interaction though

lime granite
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There are probably more counters to the Katana than any other weapon.

The Boomstick, Brasshopper (and thus Myk) and the FK-82 melt the blade when blocking, you can’t block explosives so the PUNCH-R/Stickybombs/Shooting bombs at their feet hard counters them, Katana can’t do anything against Landmines without hurting themself, No-Jump and getting ontop of something shuts them down, Poison Bullets can be stacked on a blocking Katana user, simpky speeding themselves up or slowing you down is enough to shut down a katana, etc etc probably more I’m forgetting.

The Katana is like an extreme Boomstick, you shouldn’t pop it unless you’re already close to your enemy and you know you can end them there. The only thing the Katana needs looked at imo is its hitreg reliability.

This is without even going into Sable being one of the worst characters because of it being forced on them, only a somewhat reliable character with a 2v2 Deck dedicated to keeping them alive on a close range map like Theatre or Trucks.

vague compass
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Yeah, like I said, this discussion wouldn't happen if sable didn't exist. Sable is the reason katana has to be changed somehow

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Agree with all your points

lime granite
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I think Sable just needs a rework, melee characters in FPS games are rarely if ever good. And if they are good or the devs buff them into being good they usually become extremely OP or annoying.

wet flower
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i dont want sable to have a rework i havent unlocked him yet and i ewant to play hoim

vague compass
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Sable is really fun, and it would be a damn shame to have the melee character removed

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I like the gameplay style of starting with the katana, I just want to not autolose, lol

wet flower
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is he not good?

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i thought yall were saying hes broken

vague compass
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People who don't understand how to fight against a katana are saying it's broken. It's a good counter to stuff like the sniper right now, but a lot of people don't even understand how the katana works, and assume a bunch of things that make it seem overpowered

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The katana is, like someone else said, similar to the boomstick. If you're in the weapon's effective range, it's amazing. But once you get out of the katana's range, the katana doesn't exist

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This means if you have the katana card, you can make the weapon sing for you

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But as a character who starts with it every round...you're reliant on what cards you draw, and hoping the opponent can't just counter you (which, as was discussed, the counters are plentiful)

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Which oftentimes means you're at an intense disadvantage

lime granite
# wet flower is he not good?

They aren’t, the Katana is a pubstomp weapon. It’s good against people who don’t know how to counter it. If they do you can pretty much be kited, or instakilled in various ways.

craggy mango
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half the time its just running away or chipping 1 damage away for 10 mags

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the other half you have a card to counter it so its a quicker fight

blissful latch
# wet flower i thought yall were saying hes broken

This is something which nobody here is realising, if you look around people are saying that it's both broken and terrible.

It isn't one or the other, it's both.

People at low skill levels/card counts have no options to counter a rush build and thus get overwhelmed, leading to katana/Sable is OP sentiments. On the opposite side we have people who can aim, a wealth of cards to increase their mobility and map awareness to out-manoeuvre anything a melee build can do, leading to clean sweeps.

And now the really important bit to understand is that both perspectives are equally valid. You can't neglect players who have a "skill issue" because you need fresh players to keep the game alive. If all new/low skill people immediately rage-quit because they're matched up against someone/something out of their comprehension, they'll just drop the game.

No new players will lead to the game being dead. Simple as that.

Additionally, it's *ideal *to try and make all characters viable at high levels of play. This is hard to do in any game though, and not all options will necessarily be viable. Who's out here saying that wall needs a buff? That card is one of the first to go in people's decks, but we don't see as much outcry for that. It's a weird situation because yes, ideally you would make everything viable, but with so many moving parts it's hard or impossible to balance those scales. It sucks because there's a whole character devoted to the sword and an entire weapon card tied to this issue, and that's where this whole discussion is stemming from. As others have pointed out, it's likely if Sable didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the katana card would just be decreed "bad/situational"

This is why I liked my idea/@quasi trench 's idea of being able to throw your katana, because it hits this issue on two fronts. It allows skilled players an additional option for combat and low skilled players an additional option to deal extra damage.

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I've thought on how it could work in terms of button inputs, as I pointed out a design flaw with that earlier, and I could see it being something you can charge up or ready whilst you are blocking. So with a mouse you could be holding block (right click) to prevent some damage, then whilst you have your sword above your head , you can just throw it at your opponent (with a left click).

spark basalt
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how does adding the ability to throw your katana combat your assertion that new players cant handle the katana and die to it, though? adding more things to the katana they don't get won't change that, it actually makes it easier for the katana user in some scenarios

blissful latch
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It's something you can easily tweak with testing. If throwing a fast katana (say like a javelin) is too strong, then maybe just a regular toss would do (I'm thinking of how a molotov has a slow spinning arc in this game)

spark basalt
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yeah but what does it do on the front of new players dying to katanas because they don't have the cards/ understanding to combat it

blissful latch
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Hmm, it's a good point

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I'd be tempted to say just reduce the cone in with the katana can block and add in the throw option at the same time. Making people have to aim more accurately with their blocks will leave them more vulnerable, and probably make them more willing to risk chucking a sword at the enemy - leaving them exposed

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but if Sable/katana users are taking more damage, then it goes against them needing something for the high end of play..

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which is probably where I'd make the katana do a lot of damage with the throw and make it at least reasonably quick

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I like the idea mainly of Sable/katanas being a "high risk, high reward" style of gameplay though

vital hatch
vital hatch
# blissful latch I'd be tempted to say just reduce the cone in with the katana can block and add ...

overall i think its very wrong. the thing is low skill players have a problem with sable cuz they miss half a mag on the katana leading to not beeing able to pierce the block, having to reload, katana reloads too and then your at the start again. the longer the fight the better it is for katana since you hunt for mistakes. high skill players do not miss so most weapons pierce block quite easily hitting their shots.

so first reasonable change after thinking about it is: increase the area the Katana Blocks --> low skill player hit shots more easily and break the shield if Katana users dont respect them, high skill players are barely affected sinc ethey hit their shots either way.

throwing Katana imo is not a good change, its a meele weapon and should stay that for the Katanas sake + its the worst ever to have it have balance and work with the input limits.

what is a potential could be block as an ability which blocks everything for a short period but goes onto a cooldown so you get specific timeframes for doing dmg and not doing dmg, makes it less frustrating to have no clue when to do what as a new player, whos mak dumping into katana block, missing half, having to reload just for katana to be roloaded aswell.

then i risk high reward, atm its a high risk low reward mostly unless you risk more cards to make the katana even viable, thats why i did recommend some kind of dash with the normal attack to have some skill expression at the higher end, where you really can struggle got get to players since everyone has speed difference cards as they are essential.

viral moth
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Bottom line is its guaranteed unfun for at least one player when its in the game. If its countered, the person with the katana isn't having fun. If it isn't, then sometime it feels like you might as well afk and let the match go.

Every other weapon I feel like I at least have a chance, even if I don't get the correct cards to "counter" them.

If we aren't going to completely change the mechanics, then maybe make it so there's a long window between blocking and slashing. Making it a powerful weapon still if you get the drop on someone, while also having a way to defend yourself at a distance. But the long window between blocking and being able to strike would make it so you don't get to just walk up to people without worry.

vital hatch
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but yes overall it needs a revamp so revolver and sniper have some chance and the katana some chance against the others

vital hatch
viral moth
# vital hatch though just nerfing is not the right way to a weapon that is almost useless vs t...

That's why I recommended the long window between blocking and slashing. It makes it play differently.
Right now, katana players can just walk up to you while blocking unless you got an automatic weapon.
With that change, they'd have to either be good at dancing around you or try getting the jump on you.

An alternative would be making it so you move at a significantly slower speed while blocking. Which might be a better way to get the same result.

vital hatch
viral moth
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Its a nerf, but not to the damage. Regardless how you "rework" it, its going to have to be a nerf. It has to be made less effective. You can't have one card that a character has it built in invalidate 90% of the game and not have it nerfed.

vital hatch
viral moth
# vital hatch the katana is invalidate BY 90% of the game and not the other way ^^"

I think there are plenty of people who disagree with you above.

Look, I just want the game to be good. Not a single card/character. When a single card (and especially the character who starts with it) is making it less fun for so many people, that is making the game worse. There are other problem cards, but the katana is by far the worst offender.

vital hatch
quasi trench
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What if you reduced the block and damage, gave you more movement speed and increase the rate you swing at?

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The increased movement speed and rate of swing would help you deal with higher level players but the reduced block and damage gives newer players more of a fighting chance

craggy mango
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i feel like simply increased movement speed isnt enough since if they just pull out a decreased move speed card the katana user would be so screwed

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i think dashes tied to his swings, decreased block reduction, increased damage and less firerate would give katana a chance to use its block more

vague compass
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I think sable needs a special weapon instead of the katana. Have it be a slightly different katana, since the main issues are with a character starting with it.

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The katana is fine. It's the same as the boomstick, except it loses to more stuff. It can make approaches against some weapons better, and approaches against some others worse.

Sable starting with a katana isn't fine, because this polarizing card is now in every match, and you either get screwed, or screw your opponent.

Sable needs the balance changes, not the katana, to make starting with the weapon less polarizing

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Being able to ditch the katana, whether throwing it or just discarding it, would primarily help sable with when the match is polarized against him, and his katana block working differently would help when he would normally instead counter/shut down the opponrnt

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Either by making the block based on damage dealt (so the block meter is like another health bar, high damage hits would simply take more health off of it) or whatever else seems fine

craggy mango
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i second that

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no ones dumb enough to activate katana on the other side of the map, so why is sable a character

vague compass
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Leaving the base katana as is feels fine. If we're getting an item in the future that will make the grenade launcher just deal less damage to you, then having the normal katana beat sniper is perfectly fine

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But sable just brings out the worst and the best in this weapon

wet flower
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yall write too much đź’€

wet flower
vague compass
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I also really enjoy sable, but he's bad, lol