#tank-balance-discussion

1 messages · Page 174 of 1

unique scaffold
#

yes mostly because they would be fighting teir 8too

low cliff
#

Not gonna lie I think with the damage reducing equipment and hp buffs and pen nerfs to the kv2 1 shots are a lot more rare, especially at tier 6

unique scaffold
#

When is gravity mode coming

dense yoke
#

Buff Tortoise frontal side armor to 240-250 mm
day 4

scarlet fjord
#

remove Tortoise hatch that can be penned by tier 7 mediums with standard ammo

muted rampart
#

@scarlet fjord and buff frontal armor to around 300 eff and leave second, smaller coupola so it won t be broken

versed tide
#

The thing is the cupola has the loader in it

verbal thistle
drifting depot
dense yoke
#

There are T9 tanks that pen its frontal armor with standard shells.

drifting depot
#

I think you know what I mean by stock tier 9 lol, of course there's gonna be a couple of stock tier 9s that'll still go through a tortoise like tissue paper if it's not completely angled but you get it

muted rampart
#

It should be able to reliably bounce T9 heavies/meds (prammo) and T8 Premium shells reliably when angled correctly. When perfectly angled it s armor should be around 330-340mm. They should leave coupola alone but this smaller one. This bigger one should be deleted or at least cut like E5's one

versed tide
full token
#

he knows

drowsy plaza
#

@versed tide the E5 still has a sliver of a cupola that can be penned

#

Even at max depression

versed tide
#

Yeah but I still don’t get it

drowsy plaza
#

He wants a frontal monster tort

versed tide
#

Umm ok

drowsy plaza
#

Yeah. Rather unrealistic in my opinion 330mm is max med tier X Prammo - so a tier 9 TD could hold those off.

muted rampart
#

But at Perfect angle when using all gun depression. Without gun depression już angled at The same level as enemy it should be around 310. Without Angling maybe near 280-290

orchid grove
#

I'd rather they just undo the nerf they gave it all those years ago

dense yoke
#

and what were they?

unique scaffold
orchid grove
#

@dense yoke
For the Tortoise Mk. 2 suspension, resistance on soft terrain changed from 2.6 to 2.8 - stabilisation while on the move or while traversing changed from 0.2 to 0.25.

For the 120 mm AT Gun L1A1 gun, reload time changed from 7.1 to 7.7 s - stabilisation of the turret traverse changed from 0.06 to 0.1 - gun dispersion after firing changed from 3.5 to 4 - aiming time changed from 1.7 to 2.2 s.

*Copied directly from update 2.5 patch notes

Basically, huge gun handling nerfs, a mobility nerf, and a substantial DPM nerf

sinful leaf
#

Even if the gun was buffed the armor is still really bad, especially for something that has a 20 km/h top speed.

full token
dreamy oar
#

I think they should give the 183 the enhanced speed boost

unique scaffold
#

That joke wasn’t funny

versed tide
#

What if we gave it reactive armor to 183 nothing else

dreamy oar
#

I meant to say the 183 line should get the enhanced speed boost

full token
#

Ew consumables

sinful leaf
#

I don't think 183 needs to be touched rn when it still has that 1300 alpha
If you're exposing yourself in a way where you're constantly being shot, you're doing something wrong. However, a terrain resistance buff would be fine as it wouldn't increase the mobility too much but also allow it to accelerate at a reasonable rate. In exchange the hull traverse could be nerfed to keep it the same as it was before. But again, 183 doesn't really need a buff or nerf right now.

jagged crescent
#

giving a line the special consumables just sounds lazy

versed tide
#

Well the 183 sucks and it’s large and takes a lot of shots and reactive would just help it a little bit

dreamy oar
#

I feel giving it and the line the enhanced speed boost is a better option bc people might start saying it’s broken now sir we give it the reactive armor. The speed boost will make driving the line a bit better

queen summit
jagged crescent
sinful leaf
#

😂

ruby cloud
#

At least I’m not alone....

sullen jolt
#

oh man! nice observation though 🤯 😈 ☠️

tribal osprey
#

Welp thanks for putting that into my head

queen summit
#

wonder how fast that is gonna change

unique scaffold
#

Pls get VK 100.01(P) and VK 168.01 their 150 mm pls and balance it

#

Nah

versed tide
#

The 128 is plenty fine

winged barn
#

Good luck trying to balance that. That would be like giving the normal e100 the jag100 gun and saying "balance it"

austere citrus
#

they should give 183 that op speed boost and reticle thingy powerup

winged barn
#

Future wg balancing team members here^

dreamy oar
#

I think the 183 should get the enhanced speed boost bc if we also give it the snap shot consumerable people will start to complain and we’ll be back at square 1

remote oriole
#

I think all op consumables should be removed on the spot and that they should be replaced with balanced, affordable and nation specific consumables that replace not only the op consumables, but also the more expensive consumables like adrenaline and speed boost. That way picking a nation has more of a meaning, the gameplay gets more diverse while not creating massive (if temporary) imbalance and there is a greater variety of consumables.

I think WG was very lazy when they just made more expensive and more op consumables at the cost of the balance of the game...

dense yoke
#

a 100k creds per super consumables used

hardy hazel
#

I think 183 shouldnt get any special consumables

jagged crescent
#

that new amx heavy still looks overcooked
how is it too late, they've changed collectors post-release before

full token
#

Too late to change anything

jagged crescent
#

Really WG,
add in the Is4 hull armor, the e5 flexibility, and the 19 horsepower/ton and you still think that this is ok?
Look at the screenshot genius @muted rampart

📎 unknown.png
muted rampart
#

You forgot about the broken gun @jagged crescent

jagged crescent
lucid plover
#

Makes me wish governments actually cared any about the video game industry and started regulating it enough that these borderline predatory schemes and strategies video game companies use so blatantly can be at least restricted somewhat..

scarlet fjord
#

and ofc like i said they would do if blitz hanger is accurate
Wargaming are gonna sell a completely broken AMX m4 54 for 500$...
Wargaming i dont need a smasher at tier 10
its impenetrable hull down literally to even a HO RI AP + why are you ruining the tiers 1 by 1 for a short term profit...
at least fix the broken gun omg
the hatches are invisible when u use gun depression maxed out

versed tide
#

Hmmm make the gun worse and the hull worse

nimble zodiac
real bison
#

even a grille or leopard would struggle to hit that while stationary, let alone wiggling and moving

scarlet fjord
#

@nimble zodiac that is 1 pixel my friend
any person with any level of skill wont just stand there and let you pray with 62a accuracy to hit 1 pixel everything else is ridiculously high effective armor
and the gun is completely broken if blitz hanger is accurate
in fact i think the IS-7 should have that kind of alpha and penetration but not the DPM ofc
ah ok xd
btw the hatch is above 70 degrees so only HEAT rounds wont ricochet 🙂

nimble zodiac
#

Look I'm not saying it's fair at all, just that I'm a prick and will dig into any detail to remove a claim :p

mental pasture
nimble zodiac
#

You only need around 310mm of HEAT pen to be able to pen the cupola at that angle @scarlet fjord

Again, still not arguing it's fair

scarlet fjord
#

@mental pasture please read the whole conversation before making an argument
when the tank is hull down only 1 hatch is visible and its angled at more than 70 degrees

@nimble zodiac yes but its 1 pixel even if he doesn't move and its short distance u will penetrate with 62a accuracy for under 300 alpha damage and get hit back for 480
heavies cant even contest that

dreamy oar
#

This tank has a 130 gun that 480. WG atleast buff the is 7 dmg to 480 to match the amx in the next update or two.

scarlet fjord
#

wouldn't hurt to give it's premium ammo a buff as well

dreamy oar
#

Wouldn’t hurt to give tanks that need buffs some love

scarlet fjord
#

yeah wargaming wouldn't hurt to buff the tanks that need buffs
and not the Jagtiger incident lol
IS-7 is all fine and dandy i like it
but some of its stats are unfair
303 APCR is just treating the poor tank bad
and bad penetration and bad accuracy is just a very bad combination
at least give it one or the other

halcyon tundra
#

Annialator needs nerf

unique scaffold
#

Yeah no

scarlet fjord
#

VK100 and 168 150mm guns?
yeah no XD
you cant balance that
you just wont
my borsig seems ridiculously destructive with that caliber gun
specially since i can HE heavy tanks in the right spots with it

karmic portal
#

And the funny thing is this is after all the nerds. And the even funnier thing is the t1 heavy is exactly this tank at tier 5 and it already is in the game

scarlet fjord
#

well to be fair nobody cares about bottom tiers below tier 7 xd
but yes

flat bane
#

It's fun shooting at an IS-7

gilded geyser
#

hellcat isn't broken yet cuz the traverse speed is so slow

winged barn
#

The gun was apparently too good on the jackson.
makes hellcat gun even better than the Jackson's

frozen patrol
#

Amx m4 54 is going to be the most balanced tonk wargaming has ever produced. Hats off to all the designers and testers who okayed this tonk. Need some more of these at tier 6 and 9 as well so these tiers are balanced too.

jagged crescent
#

Frontal hullarmor thats better than an is4, a impennable turret with tiny cupolas and 8 degrees of gd, and the horsepower ratio of a 113 while having actual traverse. . .how can u tell

frozen patrol
sullen jolt
#

how about HE spamming the tank?

sharp laurel
#

dont think m4 54 has super consumables?

sinful leaf
#

@sullen jolt the armor is thick enough to stop HE splashes from doing any reasonable amount of damage, if any all together frontally.
@final warren that would require WG admitting that they screwed up the balance of tier 7 completely so probably not happening lmao
Bruh, how often do you think you can reliably trap shot with HE?

final warren
#

Instead of buffing tanks can we nerf the strong tanks to reset everything...

nimble zodiac
#

@sinful leaf if you shoot right above the deck, even if it hits the turret, HE will splash for a considerable amount

noble quail
#

The M4 54 probably has super consumables

To make it more Better

verbal thistle
#

It's a pay to win tank so it has to be a OPstrong tank

noble quail
#

yes

queen elbow
#

There has got to be a minimum number of games requirement for buying high tiered premium tanks, ik ik it cuts into the precious revenue but by encouraging players to learn the basics of the game it helps keep frustration down. If not for regular battles at least ratings.

turbid smelt
#

There is absolutely no need to force players to go through half an hour study course on how to game mechanics and tactics.
Most players play game to have fun, if they want to improve their stats it doesn't take more than 2 clicks and few head bangs on keyboard to search how to [insert something] guide.
@queen elbow

sinful leaf
#

The problem is that some random noob with literally a single battle can buy a tier 10 premium and jump into Ratings. If anything, I would at least have a minimum battle requirement for Ratings, or otherwise suggested as above one for high tier premiums. It doesn't really make sense to have a player who should be around at low tier to be at high tier in an instant not knowing what they're doing just because they used a wallet. While tutorials exist it won't make up for the lack of experience. Just the way I see it :/

drifting depot
#

and let's not forget the current tutorial we have is trash lol

mental pasture
#

Ratings shoud get a motto; Git gud and carry harder lmao

last shadow
#

My HP, Ammo capacity, DPM prevent me from carrying 6 people

  • most tryhards (probably)
winged barn
#

I cant recall playing with the noobs fresh out of bootcamp once I hit 5k rating.

#

You act like they are never on the enemy team. They are easy damage for you to increase your own rating with. If they are on your team, that means that there is just more damage available for you to do. Noobs will be noobs in any tier. You just have to learn how to deal with them. Enemy and friendly team filled with them? Easy ace.

If you are averaging +2 ratings points per match, it's a you problem. Get better and start carrying your team.

drowsy plaza
#

The fact people don’t calibrate in Gold or Platinum and cry about other players makes me cry

#

This isn’t a MM or blame team etc channel

dense yoke
#

Can we nerf IS4?
It is strong for it is own good.

sinful leaf
#

IS-4 is literally boring to play because it's so strong :/

turbid smelt
#

its roof should be nuffed to 40mm

turbid crow
#

183 camo rating should be buffed along with its speed & aiming time

turbid smelt
#

increase of top speed would be fine buff
everything else is fine on the tank

remote oriole
#

You should move your fingers in less of a pattern when trying to write random symbols

meager bison
#

yes

sinful leaf
#

@turbid smelt the terrain resistances are already bad enough to the point where 183 struggles to get 35 on flat ground, only around 33-34 at most. Buffing the top speed wouldn't do it any good if you didn't also at least give a minor buff to the terrain resistances
Engine power is already good for the weight it carries, terrain resistance buff along with a hull traverse nerf to balance it out would be fine.

hardy hazel
minor plover
#

Will be T28 considered one day as a tank? I think it needs to be reworked and buffed.

sudden granite
#

It should but wg simply cba lmaooo

mental pasture
lucid plover
#

All you need to do to make the T28 work is buff it's cupola armor significantly

mental pasture
lucid plover
#

Oh.

mental pasture
fiery dagger
#

It's actually not a hitbox if I recall correctly.

remote oriole
#

There’s only one way of finding out

mental pasture
#

Does anyone here on EU have T95E6?

drowsy plaza
#

It’s not a hit box

#

I have it

winged barn
#

or does he just not want to get HEed there...

grave quarry
#

So when is E3 getting nerfed?

sudden granite
#

When is smasher/annihilator getting nerfed xd

turbid smelt
# sinful leaf <@239868638054580225> the terrain resistances are already bad enough to the poin...

183s top speed is 34kmph
terrain resistance would only slow down tank while turning
if it could get 42kmph top speed, 183 could atleast achieve 39-40kmph with bit of turning

obj 263 has slightly better terrain resistance stats but its effective hrsprs quickly accelerates to 55kmph top speed and easily allows it to stay over 50 when driving straight, but slows it down if any amount of turning is introduced thanks to terrain resistance

@sinful leaf terrian resistance also affects effective hrsprs, so acceleration is different across different terrian

new edit
ah lel, I meant to say terrian resistance only reduces acceleration across different terrian, it still allows tank to achieve its top speed (if you move in straight line) but if any amount of turning is introduced then tank slows down

sinful leaf
#

If it is true that terrain resistance slows down a tank only while turning, why do I find that tanks with mediocre terrain resistances struggle to accelerate in shallow water/soft terrain? Or maybe it is just me. But sure, if you say terrain resistances aren't a problem buff the top speed and see what happens from there.
My point exactly, you said that terrain resistances only affect a tank when it is turning, which didn't exactly make sense considering the context you used :/
Well that makes a lot more sense now, lol

turbid smelt
#

i think small body of water reduces speed regardless of terrain

as per experience on castilla map southern spawn, on medium route you need to go through a smol body of water, there is "one" route on that body of water where submerged symbol isn't triggered and tank doesn't feel to slow down but if any other route is used every tank type slows down and submerged symbol is triggered, I think smol body of water is treated as speed limiting zone if certain water height is reached.

#

i am reading wot mechanics and I could be very wrong

yea, we can conduct our little biased test later and post results

sinful leaf
#

A tank with good enough terrain resistances won't be affected going in a straight line through shallow levels of water. Mediocre terrain resistances on the other hand suffer if I'm correct which I might not be

winged barn
#

I'm pretty sure the water is what is classified as a "soft" terrain, normal dirt is "medium", and roads are hard

So something with very good soft terrain resistances will be minimally effected by water

turbid smelt
#

ah, i thought road was hard, dirt woth trails was medium and dirt was soft

noble quail
#

Same

drifting depot
#

I think it goes like anything that isn't based off a rock or an obviously layed road in the terrain is medium terrain and only water is soft terrain so far

hollow vale
#

unbalanced

bronze zealot
#

Do you think Fv4202 should get a remodel or something? I feel like the I am wearing iron man's suit but than forget the helmet. can it get something to help with that turret armor?

deft crescent
#

Anyone with #nerf Annihilator in their name.
Stop.
They won't do it.

drifting depot
#

new smasher/wz 120/t-22M/any other extremely expensive op/broken tank

thick rover
#

@bronze zealot but if it becomes iron man won't it be OP

bronze zealot
#

@thick rover I was thinking more like make the cheeks a weak spot like how the STB-1 cheeks are and the rest of the turret will be like the 121 (Effective thinkness wise not shape)

winged barn
remote oriole
#

My knowledge agrees with that water is soft

drowsy plaza
#

Not a MM complaint zone

unique scaffold
#

Nerf AT 2 If you with a tier IV you can even hit it

noble quail
#

Tha AT-2 is balanced

Yeah the armour is thick, but that's basically it

nimble zodiac
#

Grammatical errors, nice. The sides of AT 2 are 25mm thick on the lower half, with a 20mm track thickness covering, very weak.

unique scaffold
#

Haha ur so funny

nimble zodiac
#

@unique scaffold as far as I can tell, it’s not going to stand up to 76mm guns (160 damage) at any angle if the two caliber rule applies past spaced module armor like the tracks, the AT 2’s only hope is either the spaced armor on the tracks, or the two caliber rule not applying to secondary armor piercing

unique scaffold
#

I don’t think anyone cares about at 2

nimble zodiac
#

Someone does, and assuming a 76mm shell hits that 25mm armor at 85 degrees, the calculations show that it only needs 49mm of pen to successfully deal damage.

Should the caliber rules be disregarded since it isn’t the first armor hit?

📎 image0.jpg
dense talon
#

Lol neeeeeerd

nimble zodiac
#

YEAH WOO

sudden granite
muted rampart
#

If anybody says that actuall at 2 armor is broken he definetly should take a look at pre 5.5 at 2

nimble zodiac
#

@sudden granite I have yet to figure out the mechanics of track absorption 😅

Really curious how they seem to negate higher caliber shells more often, but that might just be negativity bias.

sudden granite
versed tide
#

That sounds like what happens to e5 and sharks when side scraping they have weak tracks to go with it

deft owl
#

@winged barn water is soft, mud is soft, dirt is medium, roads and asphalt are hard.

scarlet fjord
#

Thank you wargaming for nerfing the m4 54 again
you removed ATGM's and now nerfed that thing as well as Emil 1951
your going on aa good path imo in terms of long term game time from players
Armor still completely broken hull down though
not gonna lie XD

dark pike
#

what did they nerf on it? other then dpm

dense walrus
muted rampart
#

Noice

winged barn
#

Bruh, it has AP prammo?
Why god

mental pasture
#

Ha! I'm liking what I'm seeing!

Yep, gold AP and 310mm pen

scarlet fjord
#

at least they nerfed standard pen and DPM
but it still needs hull and turret nerf
specially turret its the main problem almost impossible to pen with -8 yet it has a better IS-7 gun even right now

minor minnow
#

Well with the pen, DPM and handling nerfs it seems like Armor is all it’ll truly have, besides mobility.

versed tide
scarlet fjord
#

hull down u cant pen its turret with anything
thats not balanced

nimble zodiac
#

In the best situations of course, where it can use its full gun depression and only face one target, but still note that it's strong from an angle too

scarlet fjord
#

no other heavy can do that
and every heavy if u flank it u can penetrate its sides
thats not the point
point was its broken if it looks at u

nimble zodiac
rocky parcel
#

the whole side is weak AF, turn the turret a bit and its an easy pen

scarlet fjord
#

who runs CS on HO RI
thats so bad lol
and i like how u think those weak spots are viable even for a bad build

unique scaffold
#

why my tank was delete ???

nimble zodiac
scarlet fjord
#

idk why your using HO RI as a singular balancing point
your the one who brought it up
my point stands the same
they need to nerf it because nothing can pen its turret not 1 TD which is rare in pubs
and it can with a bad build and a miracle shot in a weak spot from medium to long distance
it needs to have cheeks that have like 330 effective (hatches are invisible and the part that is visible is auto ricochet angle to kinetic rounds and is 1 pixel)
and for the "its sides are paper" argument
most heavies except the russians have similar problems
ideal example is the E5

nimble zodiac
#

I started up the OP shells argument because you had claimed "hull down u cant pen its turret with anything", which of course, could be an exaggeration, but why not accept another super turret with Kranvagn?

Nothing can pen Kranvagn's turret, and you focus on the OP turret armor of the 54, which doesn't even stand up better than Kranvagns to the best shell.

Now I'm fully okay with 54 being nerfed again, but the focus on the turret armor lays a shadow on the other tank with a super turret, the Kranvagn

scarlet fjord
#

I see your point
ok let me explain why
Kranvagn's turret is overpowered
but the tank itself gets balanced by its lack of DPM and mobility without the consumable and ofc paper hull armor out in the open
now for the fun part
m4 54 has reliable consistent mobility
480 alpha imo very important
average DPM not bad at all (unlike kranvagn)
while at the same time has the ability to hull down with the same armor profile as a kranvagn and it only has 1 less degree of gun depression 8 instead of 9 while having arguably insane hull armor and generally overcooked stats

winged barn
scarlet fjord
#

regardless
E5 is top tier meta
and its better
i cant imagine that being balanced

coarse harness
#

It's just the usual WG balance
Obviously strong tonk hidden behind a paywall
Comp players will spend hundreds to get it

distant river
#

The thing is that's not what WG is looking for, WG just wants the "omg it's so op" reviews and the use/abuse of it by pros to get the average player to try and get it thinking it will help them. Compared to how many comp players they are that will buy it, there are thousands more average players that will get it which is where WG gets its money from

nimble zodiac
#

Ez nerf collector?

scarlet fjord
hardy hazel
#

So, m54 its going to be superior than e5 even without those dumb consumables?

drowsy plaza
#

The game isn’t 1 v 1

unique scaffold
#

Obviously it will be released op to maximize wargaming profit. Later, after they stop generating a lot of income from the tank, they will nerf it.

scarlet fjord
dense walrus
#

you're not going to engage a hulldown AMX frontally unless you're bad

delicate moth
#

Then I guess a lot of AMX’s are going to engage me frontally.

scarlet fjord
#

then i guess your not gonna let that m4 54 have the hill so he can tear apart your team mates unless your bad

nimble zodiac
#

Then I guess Kranvagn will also have the hill :|

scarlet fjord
#

at least it has 2 hatches that i can see
bad DPM is slow doesnt have 480 alpha and HE splash damage actually affects it from big caliber guns and most importantly
when he isnt looking at you the side of its turret is 280-ish even slightly off target unlike 80% of the m4's side turret being 400+

rocky parcel
#

AMX sides are literally paper. This tank will akin to the tier 8 AMX premium tank; great tank but nothing you cant easily beat if you have decent skill.

coarse harness
scarlet fjord
#

u say that and yet nobody has problems dealing with kranvagn in the meta@coarse harness
he will shoot you once for 400 and u back off if he penetrates and he's gonna shoot HEAT so its not 400 the disadvantage of hull down auto loading playstyle specially with 3.5 seconds on the sheet
whilest m4 has alpha and a regular gun reloading system which is harder to penetrate in every way
and the amx has a 45 mm plate but ur not reaching that plate if he has any skill at all specially with 20 reverse since u need to hit him on the (300 mm plate) under the gun so it splashes down on it with a 150 mm gun handling whilest kranvagn just has a huge 225 mm turret

winged barn
#

Punctuation please @scarlet fjord

I personally find the kran to be a really, really, powerful tank. The difference is that noobs don't know how to use an autoreloader, and end up stuck with cripplingly low dpm, while the m54 is gonna be an idiotproof poke your head over a ridge, shoot, repeat.

I am again going to steer away from the kran and toward a t110e5. The e5 is considered a very strong tank(curse the ammorack). The m54 is a direct armor upgrade and gains a significant amount of alpha at a slight cost of dpm while having basically the same mobility (outside of superspeed). I see the m54 as a flat out better e5 in its current state, and the e5 is already a very nicely preforming tank

More the merrier

regal grove
#

mmmm more pointless walls of text mmmmm

scarlet fjord
#

@winged barn this isnt a formal chat dont force people to follow rules of punctuation lol
and besides the initial conversation was that M4 54 needed further turret armor nerfing

coarse harness
karmic portal
#

The issue with the 54 is it’s shape. If you nerf it too much it’s all pennable. If you nerf it to little it’s all not pennable. It doesn’t have many places that can be used to make weak spots

versed tide
#

Honestly it being god hull down is fine because there a billion other tanks that can go hulldown. It’s just the alpha and speed that worries me.

austere citrus
#

at least they nerfed it, before, u couldnt even pen the lower plate with standard rounds and u could also side scrape with the tank.

empty copper
nocturne venture
#

buff e4 hatch

golden kestrel
#

Amx m4 is a tech tree tank in Pc! Why make is a collectible!

dense walrus
#

because this isn't PC

hardy hazel
#

because money

unique scaffold
thick rover
#

@nocturne venture here is an interesting opinion just for perspective, what are your thoughts ?

nocturne venture
#

laughs in e3 hatch

lilac venture
#

If there's amx m4 54 then what's the point of having a kranvagn :'

distant elm
#

should we buff wz111-5a of dpm?

minor plover
#

@scarlet fjord huge respect for you, and your patience. People don’t See problems that you see and me, I’d say that Swedish tanks are not made for blitz, but that’s gonna end with hate and yelling at me XD

muted rampart
#

@minor plover mediums would be fine but tds and heavies definetly aren t made for this game

thick rover
#

@distant elm should we buff HEAT pen

scarlet fjord
#

@minor plover i tried explaining it but they were more focused on my non use of punctuation in a non formal chat than my logic
and even though i explain it they still say the same stuff from before i just give up tbh

minor plover
#

I did it few months ago, it is what it is

dense talon
#

@scarlet fjord they always focus on different stuff rather than the main topic of your statement. Been there feel with you :v

minor plover
#

After 5.5, low tiers are unplayable and they will never be.

frail silo
#

So before 5.5 they were very playable and balanced right? @minor plover

muted rampart
#

@frail silo they were playble but unbalanced. Still better than now. Now they are unplayable and unbalanced

minor plover
#

Playable - yes. Balanced - only A-20 and DW2 was outstanding. Low tiers were hella fun.

distant river
#

T18, T82, cruisers, kenny otsu, T46, M5, hetzer, M7 just from slight memory?

You either played an op tank or an awful tank at lower tiers, which makes it only playable if you were a sealclubber

unique scaffold
#

Luchs and leopard used to be insanely strong in the far past

turbid smelt
#

yea, luchs used to have armor, speed and firepoer

scarlet fjord
#

i remember when luch was my first tank ever and i was wondering why was i 50 times stronger than everyone else even though we are the same tier

minor plover
#

@muted rampart ain’t gonna read that

distant river
#

@muted rampart So the anni isn't broken because I can take one out in a meh tank played right? Now imagine that instead of having just the collector anni, you have 10-15 broken tanks that are obtainable from an hour of grinding max, and now imagine sealclubbers playing these tanks meeting people with 20 battles who don't know what this game is an installed it randomly a few minutes ago thinking it looked cool. Think of tier 7, but with a much greater spread of how good tanks are, many more broken tanks, more easily obtainable broken tanks, and many more new players.

Also good luck trying to tell someone with 20 battles to git gud and beat a 20k battle sealclubber lmao

winged barn
#

@scarlet fjord if I have to use extra brainpower just to try to figure out what in the heck you are trying to say, lol no

dense yoke
#

Exactly
Because of that, i just see no point in shaming seal clubbers.

distant river
#

@muted rampart Sealclubbers can fight with new players. That preference is only on two of the servers, and is a preference not a rule. You can and will fight with sealclubbers, and when you do you have no chance against them as a new player. Even within the new player group, the difference between a 20 battle player, a 300 battle player and a 5k battle player is gigantic. The low tiers were a gigantic mess of balancing, and it needed to be changed. For example when I was a noob at around 5k games I managed to get a 72% WR in the DW2. I wasn't that into the game back then I was just playing for fun, but even back then I could abuse other players. I am now a huge amount better player, so imagine what I could do now and try and tell me that is balanced. And so they changed the balance of the lower tiers. It made it less interesting for those people who relied on them for fun/stats, but made low tiers significantly better for the people low tiers are meant for.

rose siren
#

Forgot about Keni otsu’s cousin Keni? Still had that 4 shot gun back in the days... but they are useless now

muted rampart
#

@distant river but you don t understand what we want. Nobody here is stupid enough to want bringing back everything as it was 1:1. Old low tiers needed changes and that was obvious. But wargaming did it in a wrong way and messed it up even more. Low tiers need back their variety of different tanks with different playstyles and everything. We need back tanks like pre 5.5 T82, but after slight nerf like aiming Time nerf to around 6-8 seconds. We needs tanks like luchs having crazy clip dmg but also after reload and armor nerf to not be overpowered as it used to. Tanks with Great armor like pre 5.5 pz 2j are also needed but They should be easly pennable from rear and gun should have way worse dpm with slightly better traverse speed and after buff penetration. Fast lights like pre nerf T15 or BT 7 are also needed and those tanks doesn t even need changes. T46 should keep it s old autoloader dmg but reload should be longer. Update 5.5 was a huge mistake and now we have effects of It. All pre 5.5 low tiers can hit the game back, but with slight nerfs to not come back to old mess

remote oriole
#

If anyone remembers the old low tier playstyle, that is what we are going to get in higher tiers if Wargaming keeps adding tanks with higher and higher clip potential and if they keep increasing the dpm and pen of all tanks

distant river
#

@muted rampart Slight nerfs aren't enough to fix the mess of balance that was the lower tiers. For new players the lower tiers are plenty interesting enough. For players who aren't new, you should not be at low tiers anyway so it doesn't concern you at all. 5.5 was only a mistake if you were a sealclubber. Otherwise you literally lost nothing at all.

scarlet fjord
#

@winged barn it takes you like almost nothing to figure it out
like i dont have trouble with it lol
its not a formal chat we are just chilling

distant river
#

What was broken about the T82? It's alpha and pen. So keeping that keeps it as broken, so you are changing almost nothing except making it harder to play, so new players are at even more of a disadvantage. And what reason would you have to play low tiers when you have experience? If it isn't fun for you then just don't play there, and leave them to be played by people who belong there. Don't complain because you want to have fun and bully noobs at the same time, just go and have fun at a different tier without bullying people 🤷‍♀️

distant elm
distant river
#

Broken tanks should not be in the game. Why are you even trying to argue whether this is true or not it's just mindblowingly stupid and ignorant🤦‍♀️ @muted rampart

charred dragon
#

The thing about broken tanks is that they get worse matchmaking so it kinda cancels out

distant river
#

183 and KV2 ruin the game for 13 other people, and Leo and T49 are not broken at all. Fun for one person should not come at the cost of fun for 13 people. Op tanks ruin the game for 7 others, and broken tanks ruin it for more. You are literally trying to defend sealclubbing yet again because it's the only place you can have fun. It's players like this that kill the game, trying to force it to fit their own wants rather than for the whole community. Get a sense of balance before attempting to defend one of the best updates in blitz again. @muted rampart

dense yoke
#

KV3?

worldly violet
#

Does any one think that the BAT CHATTILLION 25 TON should be buffed cuz it has paper thin armour I has slow acceleration plus it has a low DPM

velvet latch
full token
#

Batchat isn’t slow... And the armor is pretty nice. It gets bounces a few times, and it’s kinda hard to HE

distant river
#

They ruin the game for everyone. I (like the rest of my team) have to change my playstyle to carry the camper in the 183 sitting there all game, which makes my experience worse. The reds all have to change their playstyle to avoid the camper on the corner, which makes their experience worse. The only positive that comes out of it is the 183 camper going "yay I hit a tank for 500 I'm such a pro woohoo". This can be translated to all broken tanks, like the ones that you insist are so good for the game. Broken tanks are not good and will never be good for the game, so stop trying to pretend that they are good so you can ruin other people's experiences to feel slightly better about yourself. @muted rampart

worldly violet
# velvet latch It's a light. Armor should never be buffed. Lights are like that. They are diffi...

The while point of the bat chat 25t is ruined by the T57 heavy and the bat chat doesn't accelerate quite well
Plus the t57 heavy does more DPM so is more preferable
The french is used for scouting which it doesn't do quite well due to bumpy surfaces 😐
The aim is not good which is ok cuz it used at close range but when u peek the entire enemy teams attention goes to u and all u see is a bunch of red😢
The french all way gets the attention no matter what
I mean the t57 heavy is great at its job but not with the bat chat😕

velvet latch
#

Well it sounds like ur comparing the batchat to a heavy, which is not a comparison that can be made. It should be difficult to play it's a light. And as for everyone focusing you, that's because ur in a light. That happens in a lights and some mediums. That is one of the things that makes them hard to play. Dpm buff is an ok idea, but I'm pretty sure wg either just did that or is planning to anyway. And as far as mobility and armor go, those shouldn't be buffed. That is kinda what I have been talking about for a while now, tanks that are buffed like that loose their niche. A light tank with armor? That's not even a light tank at that point. And it can't possibly be fast if that's the case. Closest thing to that is the vk28.01 which is a great tank, but requires a little bit of skill to use well. But yeah, it sounds like the biggest issue to you about the batchat is the fact that it has light tank characteristics. Yeah, they aren't everyone's cup of tea, that's for sure. But when buffing or changing a light tank, you have to be extra careful to not destroy it or make it op. And buffing mobility or armor would do exactly that. But yeah, try the t57 heavy then. It sounds like you like armor, so try some Heavies.

worldly violet
#

Bro no I am trying to say to increase the acceleration and dpm

full token
#

Batchat is fast though. Idk why you’re comparing about that. They even gave it a buff recently for mobility. And it’s not awful. They nerfed the Vickers light and the Sheridan was weakened from the original state, while the Batchat also got a buff to shell reload. So it’s pretty nice. It’s also got a small clip reload so you aren’t helpless for as long as other autoloaders

#

Comparison to other lights and mediums. Faster than the other lights and most of the mediums.

📎 image0.png
velvet latch
#

Yeah batchat is in a good place rn. U want to know what a real bad light tank is like play SP1C

winged barn
#

That tank is only bad because of the derp tank spam in tier 7

remote oriole
#

SP I C is actually a very good and fun tank

dense yoke
#

Can everyone stop hating on SP1C?
It is a really fun tank and good.
You x person, just don't how to use it.

turbid smelt
#

i agree sp1c is lovely after mobility buff and intra reload buff

sudden path
#

@distant river if 5.5 was the best update ever, how would you address the complaints that because the new players had no opposition in low tier that they would rush the tiers? I joined the game after 5.5 and rushed the tiers. Not that I disagree with your points about sealclubbing though

turbid smelt
#

@sudden path it wasn't the best, it was good update, just executed poorly

instead of rebalancing stupid tanks they decided to break knees of every tank at that tier except keni of course

rocky yacht
#

BALANCE YOUR DARN MATCHMAKING PLEASE

I had a T X certif for 60 mins so I wanted 2 wins with my IX because I had x3 boosters

Then! EVEN THO I did 2k Dmg I LOST 11 Matches!!!

And certif expired because I thought I did 10 battles !!!

FIX IT NOW smh

I'm still mad at that brainless Maus, that pay 2 win Chieftan and amx

Edit: oh yea pinned comment...

Edit 2: so now I delete this or nvm?

Edit 3: -.- alright then...

dense yoke
dense walrus
#

you did 2k damage 11 games in a row? yea right. quit complaining and play better. Also yes, take it to #general-blitz-discussion so people can flame you with less of a slowmode

gleaming apexBOT
#

dynoSuccess Xxelitemaster2018#8961 has been warned.

distant river
#

@sudden path People always rushed the tiers. Now as much as then. Before there was more lines so more people went slower, but there was also the threat of sealclubbers and broken tanks everywhere so you tried to run away up the tiers as fast as possible. Now there's less sealclubbers and broken tanks so people aren't forced up, but there are less lines so people go up more quickly at their own pace. The way it is now means new players are less likely to quit and more likely to learn which is great news.

hardy hazel
#

And now you sealclub in tier 7, you can do the same in tier 5 spamming T1 heavy and the french heavy, and in tier 6 spamming kv 2 or alr but thats up to your personal taste

Sure, but as you say ppl rush the lower tiers and you spend more time grinding in tier 5, 6 and 7 so there are way more noobs to bonk and make them quit than in lower tiers

full token
#

What would be that interesting for sealclubbers if they had simply removed all those derp guns and done the balance changes, but left all the tanks? I don’t see how sealclubbers would want to play lower tiers if they simply rebalanced everything so all the tanks are like they are now. Now they’re just reintroducing all the removed tanks in the battle passes or in the store, so sealclubbers could just go pick those up if it’s the tanks themselves allowing sealclubbing.
A longer grind seems good for the experienced players and it’s better IMO to just have more tanks in the game

Eventually we’d have all the removed tanks back in circulation, either in BP or through the store, just fewer players on them. The main difference for lower tier tanks is that they all got derp guns removed, and balance changes. And the grind for the tech trees compared to 5.5 is just shorter, meaning newer players reach higher tiers quicker.

jagged crescent
#

You shouldn't think so highly of yourself
2k dmg means nothing in a t9 @rocky yacht

📎 unknown.png
hardy hazel
#

Well, is a team based game, if you did 2k thats petty much 1 kill in tier 9, a lot of help to the team if you ask me, and also, a very good job if you are in the top of the damage table 👀

Thats a diferent thing and you are right

full token
#

2k isn’t any reason to say that your team is entirely to blame for the losses

He is in a tier 9. I don’t think doing 2k at tier 9 can be enough to say that you did as much as you could. At most he killed one tank and then a bit more damage. Even for the worse tier 9s that’s not high enough damage

unique scaffold
#

All 3 of you managed to ignore the fact he never specified or noted what tank he was using

blissful vigil
#

I can respect that if it was Leopard PTA, or any other really bad tier 9 tank

dense yoke
#

Do 5k damage in tier 1 and i will be impressed.

distant river
#

@muted rampart Low tiers are not brain-dead like you make them out to be, and grinding a tier 10 still takes a long time. Also like I said there were doing exactly the same thing before, just more of them leaving the game because of sealclubbers.

hardy hazel
#

You can make all the way up to tier 10 in +-1k battles, i used to know a guy that grinded a tier 10 tank in 3 days but his win rate was an impressive 32%
Its not about how long it is but how much you learn about the game in the way

distant river
#

@muted rampart And you could do exactly the same thing before 5.5 lmao

At least now they have more chances of learning how to play rather than just getting abused by a DW2 from some "pro" with 40k games at tier 4 constantly. Before it was just a toxic environment to be in, thanks to all of those "fun" tanks you attempted to defend. Now it's much much more of a learning space.

distant river
#

That's better than getting deleted in 20 seconds by a sealclubber, it's forgiving like it's meant to be for new players. You seem to be completely oblivious to what is actually good for new players and entirely focused on your own enjoyment, and that is not what low tiers are meant for. @muted rampart

jagged crescent
distant river
#

So you get... A learning curve? How do you think this is a bad thing? Also pre-5.5 was literally what you were complaining about at tier 6/7, but instead of just at tier 6/7 you have it from tier 2. Instead of having any chance to get skills to deal with these, you get the 💩 kicked out of you instantly. You don't get a chance at all. With the system we have now you at least get a chance. You just want to keep people at the game, or keep them in there for you to club. That is not what is good for the game. @muted rampart

unique scaffold
#

Ever since derp guns were removed noticeably a lot of clubbers also disappeared aswell

hardy hazel
#

But not every single one of them and thats a shame

Make it better, remove the game and all problems solved

dense yoke
#

How about remove all the low tiers all together? Sounds like a very bad idea.

distant river
#

It's a much better learning curve than what it was pre-5.5, and it's not a completely brain-dead playstyle at all like I've said before that you have completely ignored. You are jumping between contradictory points so try thinking a bit harder next time you say anything. Can you get used to the playstyle before tier 6 or not, because in your sealclubbers fantasy world you can, but in the real world you can't? Anyway you are still attempting to argue that broken tanks have a positive impact on the game which is an absurd idea unless you are completely blind to what is good for the game. @muted rampart

full token
#

They didn’t have to remove the tanks though. Could’ve just removed the derps, done the same balance changes, and left all the tanks in. I don’t think any of the removed tanks are too powerful in their current states so there wasn’t any need to remove them other than to make it quicker to grind up the line, which is not so good

orchid grove
#

@full token They didn't have to, but the rationale behind the removed tanks is that for a new player, if you want to grind a bunch of different tanks, you don't have to spend tons of time in the lower tiers grinding through like 7 different tier IIIs.

lone warren
#

Worst thing they did was remove the T-150.

mental pasture
#

On 5.5, WG made researchable tanks become collectors for 2 reasons

  • The tank adds nothing to the tech tree and it's gameplay is nothing like the the other tanks gameplay
  • The tank is too unpopular

T-150 was quite popular and also was much more the KV-3 playstyle, much less broken than KV-2 with 152mm cannon and actually a better tank, but why it became a collector? It's simple, because KV-2 is a meme tank and WG thought "hmmm, I can't let KV-2 and T-150 coexist in the tech tree, KV-2 is pointless but we can't make it a collector"@lone warren

distant river
#

@muted rampart Tanks can be unique without being broken. The ho ri, 4005 and T49 are not broken. The other two tanks don't belong in blitz and should be removed. You are literally just proving my point that you just want to sealclub now by saying that broken tanks should stay.

remote oriole
#

It’s not the players that destroy your beloved tier ten. It’s Wargaming’s balancing of more dpm and more mobility and more damage potential

And if it it was the players, then it’s too late now anyways. They already are at tier ten

olive hawk
#

🤡 except it has terrible pen and even worse gun handling

ruby cloud
#

And the aim sucks too*
So where is the problem?
They ain’t broken lol

unique scaffold
#

“T49 is broken”

literally needs 6 seconds to aim which means stopping
has a slower P/W than the bulldogs and a stiffer turn radius
takes 15 seconds to reload if rammer and cola is used
HEAT is unreliable for majority of targets
can’t even pen majority of targets unless sides are exposed
is easy to catch

pseudo hedge
#

It's a cqc tank and only that.

unique scaffold
#

And come on you have to be baiting 183 is HE proof 4005 is not despite the spall liner 183 can destroy half your health in an instant and most likely take a good portion of your modules all autoloaders risk bouncing a round and not getting their full damage out

distant river
#

@muted rampart To get clipped by the 4005 you need to be exposed for 6 or 4.2 seconds. You will likely only take one shot, because as soon as it shoots you know where it is, so can return a shot or get to cover easily before it's next shell. The 183 can deal it's full damage in one shot and can out trade every single tank in the game. It usually does this from the corner of the map and almost completely locks off half the map from a push. T49 is nowhere near broken as other people have said (thank god somebody else has sense in here), and so I'll say it again for those of us too ignorant to understand:

Broken
Tanks
Don't
Belong
In
Game

This specifically applies to the many broken lower tiers we had before 5.5, which were significantly more broken than the 183/KV2 tier for tier, and on top of that were against completely new players a significant amount of the time.

zealous sun
spark gorge
#

i think 5.5 overall did more good than bad.

still do miss those tier ones though

nimble zodiac
#

I would have greatly preferred keeping the tier Is

deft owl
#

People who say t49 broken has to be out of his mind. Literally Fv301 is way better and much more reliable. T49 is a little luck dependant due to accuracy.

Its not broken. It actually could use some buff.

muted rampart
#

@deft owl you probably didn t read my answer. T49 isn t overpowered. It s broken these are 2 different things.

@deft owl I think you should read meaning of broken tank and overpowered tank.

Overpowered tank is tank that is to Good tier for tier and it s just outperforming other tanks of same tier

Broken tank is tank that breaks "unwritten rules of the game".
For example:

  • tanks that are able to one shot without ammorack
  • tanks that are able to one clip others
  • really fast tanks able to get half or more of HP with 1 shot
  • impenetrable frontal armor tanks

Can anybody understand that broken DOESN T MEAN THAT TANK IS OP?

minor minnow
#

In what way is the T49 broken? Please I beg of you enlighten me. Could it be... a high alpha gun on a mobile platform? Omggggggg soooo broken woooow. The tank has a high alpha gun paired with one of the worst accuracies in the game coupled with crap pen. That platform has no armor.

ruby cloud
sinful leaf
#

T49 is far from being broken. For one, even if you HE pen the rear of enemies, you don't do that significant of damage compared to TDs with the same caliber, so already a DPM and alpha disadvantage there. Two, it's not as maneuverable as M41 Bulldog, and suffers from inaccuracy issues with it's derp gun(the dispersion values are comparable to that of an uptiered KV-2). Three, even if you don't compare it to other tanks, there is no aspect of the tank that is overwhelmingly good.

muted rampart
#

@ruby cloud I m not native English so i m making mistakes. Sorry

@sinful leaf yes it doesn t have any overwhelmingly good aspect but 560/780 Alpha on one of The fastest tanks on it s tier still is broken. It s something like jagdpanzer e100 bit without armor and going 72 km/h. You have Alpha that takes half of hp when using he and 1/3 with heat but really bad gun handling.

@plush scaffold only way i can answer this is XD. I ve never heard anything that much stupid xD

plush scaffold
#

The tiger 1 line of tanks is very underpowered, each one until the e-100 does only 200 damage. When your playing in a match full of people who do 500 damage every ten seconds it's pretty difficult to win at all

hardy hazel
#

You can say the same about british tanks but not rly, if you know how to play then those 200 damage are usefull

fierce crag
#

T49 is far from broken if you have ever tried,you are trolled by T49 because you have less skills

muted rampart
#

@hardy hazel ***centurion 1, caernarvon, tortoise *** let us introduce ourselves

@fierce crag i've got over 100 battles on it lol and i have 3k wn 8 with average tier 8 so i don t think i don t have enough skills. I hardly ever get hit by it, but when time comes it s really annoying. And maybe it s not much dmg but it s also really annoying when you perfectly angle your tank and try to bounce some shells and then some 💩 in T49 slaps you for 300 in the face and run (of course killing half of your crew and destroying Many modules)

hardy hazel
#

I said that because i played cent 1 and caernarvon, its hard buy you can pull out some good games in those

fierce crag
#

@hardy hazel ***centurion 1, caernarvon, tortoise *** let us introduce ourselves

@fierce crag i've got over 100 battles on it lol and i have 3k wn 8 with average tier 8 so i don t think i don t have enough skills. I hardly ever get hit by it, but when time comes it s really annoying. And maybe it s not much dmg but it s also really annoying when you perfectly angle your tank and try to bounce some shells and then some 💩 in T49 slaps you for 300 in the face and run (of course killing half of your crew and destroying Many modules)
@muted rampart I have 62wr/1600 dpb on it,there were many times i hit some weird places and only get
100 even 0 dmg on it,thinking chimera and smasher,they could be more disgusting with greater damage,T49 HE with 16s of reloading is quite fair

karmic portal
#

Hold the phone. A week ago you were saying the kv2 was overpowered and now all the reasons people used to defend the kv2 you are using to defend the t49 lmao

earnest crest
#

Should grille line get spall liners?

low cliff
#

@karmic portal The #1 rule when it comes to arguments: Any point works if it supports your argument, no matter how bad your argument is

turbid smelt
#

@earnest crest no
they will become boring like Bri'ish ones
there won't be risk as most guns would do less or about same damage as standard shell which won't be worth the risk of hitting HE penable spot

turbid smelt
#

you have no idea, how bad and boring old mm was
+2/-2 mm with no limit on how many of same tank type can be on team

current one is much better

frail silo
#

@karmic portal right? Because kv2 in tier 6 is comparable to T49 in tier 8 right?
It is almost as if KV2 has an HP advantage because it is a heavy and can pen some tanks with ap and premium ap, while having armor that saves it from he.
It is not like T49 has a dpm and armor disadvantage, bad penetration, no worthy premium ammo(75mm he), shoots heat as its main shell.
It is not like Tanks' HP in tier 8 is much more than those in tier 6.
Ironic right? Xd.

twilit crystal
#

760 at tier 8 isn't even that good when you consider splash, Average effective armor you see is more or less like 110 mm?. So 380- 100*1.1 is like 250 dmg, meanwhile at tier 6. 960/2-90 *1.1 = like 350- 400 damage at tier 6

karmic portal
#

@frail silo I mean the stuff you said about dpm, bad penetration, applies to both of them right... which was the whole point of my comment.

And if you knew a thing about tier 6 you would know that the kv2 doesn’t have an hp advantage. The m4a3e8 has more hp than the kv2.

Anyways I wasn’t commenting on whether any of them where op or not, just how you guys used those facts to support you argument when it interests you and you say those facts are irrelevant when it doesn’t

unique scaffold
#

@karmic portal except it is irrelevant just because E8 has more hp than a kv2 doesn’t mean E8 can beat it to a pulp kv2 can literally one shot it take m41 bulldog as a better example 1060 health and it’s infamous for getting one shotted by kv2 and su 152 difference is for kv2 it’s not acceptable for the tier for the example I just said above while there are many tanks capable of hunting down and flushing out the T49 since it has to face tier 9 and tier 7

frail silo
#

@karmic portal KV2 definitely is at advantage when whatever is shooting you is shooting you for 160, while you simply shoot them for 400 on splash or 640 if you managed to pen which is not so unlikely.
It has armor to not get HE-ed in the face unless it is a high caliber gun, which is not likely to happen unless it is up tiered.
Those points are only valid to t49 because of the tier it is in, and it cannot even one shot tanks.
While kv2 doesn't have as much hard time.

unique scaffold
#

The t 49 has a lot of issues...

  1. It's penatration sucks.
  2. It's Armor sucks(that doesn't matter tho coz it's a lt).
  3. It's reload time is too much.
  4. You can't even pen tanks from sideways many times
  5. Usually to penatrate a mt or ht, you have to use HESH shells which are too costly.
  6. The aiming time is also too much..
karmic portal
#

My point again wasn’t on whether an e8 can beat a kv2. That depends 100% on the driver. I for example have 0 issues dealing with kv2s or any other tier 6 in my e8 for example. My point was that he was completely wrong when saying the kv2 has more hp because it’s a heavy and should know what he’s saying before making baseless claims. Learn to read first then jump on me.

And while I don’t want to argue about this, I find it funny how the example you bring is the most ideal one for the kv 2, it just one shotting enemy tanks that are assumedly leaving themselves exposed. I too can make an ideal example for the bulldog you mentioned, it farming the kv2 while unspotted as the kv2 desperately tries to drive to cover in time. At least if you are gonna give an example of the kv2 doing well have the decency to mention some of the times it might struggle.

Funny @unique scaffold, all those things apply to the kv2. Interesting

Well can’t it face it from over 100m away and hull down while only peaking its turret for like a second? If it can’t then the driver must really suck and deserves to get one shot so he learns how to play and isn’t a bot in higher tiers

Well I think that in the long run I can hit him more reliably than he can hit me and ima do way more damage to him. If he manages to get a shot into me once in a while good for him. The rest of the time ima just keep farming him

@full token where did I say I’m avoiding him? Are you saying I am obliged to sit 30m away from a kv2 in a light tank? Can’t engage him from at least 100m away from a hulldown position showing my turret briefly? What are you guys talking about. Plz read

full token
#

Lol you think someone can just stay in cover all game from one tank? At some point it’ll have to face the KV2, or any of the other enemies, and it can’t always avoid the KV2

frail silo
#

@karmic portal ok buddy.

unique scaffold
#

@karmic portal law of luck just because your chances of getting hit are low doesn’t mean it’s zero no matter what it can and will hit you most common excuse I’ve seen is also “but I’ve never had that happen to me lol”

full token
#

@karmic portal The reason KV2 is broken is because of the ability to one shot, no matter how often you can avoid the shots or the tank. Your logic could be applied to OP tanks like the prenerf Emil 1. If you can avoid the tank the entire battle does that mean it’s balanced and good for the game?

unique scaffold
#

This replay is from DEAR HRS and perfectly captures how luck happens stb is hulldown entirely is almost 300 meters away and gets penned in his cupola with HE by a waffen with a damaged gun

📎 video0.mp4
karmic portal
#

@unique scaffold if I’m the stb ima make the decision to engage the waffle in that position 10/10 times, if one in a million times he gets a shot into me good for him. The rest of the times ima farm him. I fail to see how this adds anything to the subject other than that sometimes tanks can get lucky due to rng. If a tank requires you to get “lucky” to preform decently well then the tank is trash, kinda like the 183 is. And plz don’t go saying now that the 183 is op because I mean the balance charts speak for themselves.

@full token how does that even make it broken though? Who defined that as being broken? I thought broken meant being able to outcompete it’s peers which the kv2 clearly does not do. If you play an fps shooter then snipers are clearly broken and need to be removed as they are unfair. Only ARs and smgs should be allowed. I would love to see the reactions of others if you make that claim. Snipers should not be allowed to no scope because that clearly is broken as there is a chance the shot hits and one shots someone where no skill is required. Plz go to some other game and make than claim. Plz.

@unique scaffold did you interpret my Ive had 0 issues with kv2s as in all my battles ever played, I’ve never gotten hit by a kv2? Why would you think that? I meant that in the vast majority of times I’ve had a kv2 on the other team, I’ve had little issues dealing with it

full token
#

You’re missing the point. We don’t say the KV2 is broken because it gets one shot kills often. We say it’s broken because it has the ability to one shot without needing an ammorack

Also I don’t think KV2 drivers have a 0.0001% accuracy
And the 183 is broken not op. There’s a difference in the two. Broken means you just can’t balance it.

unique scaffold
#

Get some glasses then Because that proves your excuse of “I’ve had 0 issues with kv2s” is really flawed support infact that’s all your argument has been you haven’t even shown one thing that supports you lol it’s all based on how your opinion of it is. It’s getting really hard to believe this is real and not actual bait unless you want to pull that card because it’s getting really obvious

frail silo
#

@karmic portal OP means it outcompetes other tanks not broken....

orchid grove
#

KV-2 has 3 things that make it overpowered:

  1. Ridiculous alpha for the tier
  2. Medium tank levels of DPM
  3. A fully rotating turret

It's not just broken, it's also overpowered
If KV-2 is ever going to be balanced, one of these things has to be taken away

full token
#

@full token how does that even make it broken though? Who defined that as being broken? I thought broken meant being able to outcompete it’s peers which the kv2 clearly does not do. If you play an fps shooter then snipers are clearly broken and need to be removed as they are unfair. Only ARs and smgs should be allowed. I would love to see the reactions of others if you make that claim. Snipers should not be allowed to no scope because that clearly is broken as there is a chance the shot hits and one shots someone where no skill is required. Plz go to some other game and make than claim. Plz.

Why are you using other games? There’s no relation to other games because they are completely different. For Blitz, the Kv2 is broken because it can take out a lot of tanks in one hit. Which no other tanks can do easily. That’s what’s broken. It’s not so much op but broken. Op just means it outcompetes other tanks. Broken means you can’t balance that alpha easily

unique scaffold
#

And my suspicions have been confirmed why am I not surprised your “buffobject252”

📎 image0.png
karmic portal
#

@unique scaffold is that from consumable discussion? That channel was a meme bro.
I think I also suggested air strikes and a perk where you instantly won the game for that matter.

Also regarding overpowered, who decides that? Is that some arbitrary decision made by listing some positive stats? Well then I think the comet is overpowered because it has a lot of dpm for a tier 7, has good gun depression, and goes over 40km/h.

A tank is overpowered or not based on its performance, not some stats you selected to support your claim. Last time I checked a game isn’t won by the tank who has the better numbers on blitz stars, it’s by the tank that performs better during a game.

I could say the kv2 is trash because it is:
Extremely slow for the tier
Has the worst dispersion for the tier
Is a huge target

What makes this different than what you are doing. What makes you right and me wrong if that’s how you compare things? Who judges what stats are more important (hint hint it’s performance)

And regarding fps games, I just made a comparison because the two are so similar. No other gun can one shot other than snipers therefore they are broken and must be removed. It’s apparently impossible to balance them is what you are saying which I would love to see you make that claim.

frail silo
#

@karmic portal it is not just some positive stats, besides KV2 and FV183
Can't be balanced, any buff makes them absolutely good. Or, they stay absolutely trash and painful.
IMO they should have kept T-150 and removed the KV2.

karmic portal
#

@frail silo whose talking about buffs? Heck I agree with you, I do think they are mediocre. It’s these guys calling the kv2 overpowered in its current state that I disagree with.

Regarding the difficulty to balance, well what are you basing balance on? Is a tank considered balanced based on its performance? If you say it’s based on how it affects the game well then I say tanks like the kv2 are an inherent part of the game since the beginning so if you don’t like it that’s because you don’t like certain aspects of the game not whether the tank is balanced or not.

It is part of the game. Wot was specifically designed to have guns do different amounts of damage and to have rng be involved in where a shot goes. I don’t see how the kv2 violates these 2 basic principles of the game.

Saying that it’s difficult to balance yes, in the sense that yes nerfing it will make it bad and buffing it will make it op, but saying it’s broken as in it doesn’t match up with the rest of the game is wrong as it clearly does

Who gets to decide how the game should be, cause that’s what in essence you are saying by saying the kv2 is broken.

What If I for example imagine that the game should just be a big brawl. then tds should be removed as they are broken, cover should not exist, and all tank should have the same alpha. You see how you cannot say something is broken based on how your view of the game is. Something is broken if it does not line up with everything else in the game, which the kv2 does as I mentioned. Just cause it’s on one end of the spectrum doesn’t mean it’s not on it

I agree the t150 is more fitting, I wished it wasn’t removed as well, especially now since the kv1, which was op, got nerfed

frail silo
#

@karmic portal well not really the performance, it is the alpha and how they affect the game.
The alpha is very hard to balance while their effect on the game is basically ruining it for 13 other players.
Their performance is bad yes but i literally said it is either they are absolutely good or absolutely trash, that is why they are broken. As for it being part of the game, well it is not really. It is just that players love occasionally one shotting tanks or crippling them, it is very fun on the giving end i know.

@karmic portal T-150 is a more fitting tank for the line. besides, you said WoT, the only thing balancing those tanks there is the team count, and how big are the maps(really important) and -2+2 MM.
Yes variety is good but when it is not breaking the game.

scarlet fjord
#

Buff tortoise super structure to 300 effective unangled and remove the cupola
Jagtigers upper plate is red to tier 10 heavies standard ammo so they need gold
yet jagtiger has better mobility and a better gun than tortoise in every way imaginable except no cheap HESH and no cupola paper to tier 7

dense talon
#

@scarlet fjord 300 effective unangled and no cupola lol... just skip the tank dont bother with it 😩

scarlet fjord
#

thats such a weak mindset wow

remote oriole
full token
#

Give it a small armor buff, see how it works, then buff if needed, repeat. No need to do massive buffs like that and end up with an op tank that’ll last for a long time only for people to complain about WG not nerfing the tank any sooner. Doing it small like with the batchat buff is good

stiff edge
#

afk players are just more to farm

distant river
#

Best thing to do for the tort is buff the armour in general but leave the cupola, then positioning and intelligence take priority to make it perform well which is as it should be.

nimble zodiac
#

Here’s my proposal if Discord is able to take an image:p

See, if the Tortoise angles to the max of their gun arc, there is still a lower plate that could be normalized into, though small, for a penetration. There is a weakspot past the tracks at that angle, but it may be rendered safe from the track. Then there’s a small but wide cupola

📎 image0.png
remote oriole
#

That would not be balanced. I don’t know why you want a tank that can only be penetrated with prammo

Maus also only goes 20 kph anyways and still many here complain that it’s too strong

latent snow
#

maybe just buff the cupola to what they did on WoT

muted rampart
#

@remote oriole we want it because it s going 20 km/h anyways. It can be easly out manouvered.

But tortoise doesn t have 3k hp And can t be immune to 340 mm heat when angled correctly

nimble zodiac
#

@remote oriole there are still substantial weakpoints, when angling, there is a spot past the front track that becomes weak, the lower plate also could be normalized into and penetrated, though small, and it’s hard to discern from my less than optimal red square editing, but I want a disc-like cupola to remain when it gets “removed”, which would be wide and easy to penetrate

There’s also the 50mm plate for the big guns to bully if they don’t feel like shooting anywhere else

unique scaffold
#

I mean the tank is meant to be bad. Punishment for grinding 183

distant river
# latent snow maybe just buff the cupola to what they did on WoT

The cupola is fine to hide, but the issue is even at max depression and gun arc one cheek is 250 and one is 290mm (before normalisation), and you won't be able to position as good as that all the time. When you are against tier 8s you can wiggle and bait loads of shots with your cupola which is what I'd like to see it doing against tier 9s, but instead it gets shredded.

dense yoke
#

Just buff the ckeeks of tortoise and don't touch the cupola

nimble zodiac
#

Afk players won’t steal my damage >:)

stiff edge
#

yes they are

remote oriole
full token
#

If they’re on the enemy team they don’t

distant river
#

Mad that they aren't in every game to give people more free damage 👀

hardy hazel
#

Whats the fun in afk player if they dont panic when i rush them 😩

arctic galleon
#

The worst thing an AFK tank can do is spot you when you’re sneaking about the map, maybe block you while you’re moving (but the arrow on the HUD should tell you if there’s any enemies nearby).

It could be especially bad in your sneaky strategies but generally afk tanks are annoyances to me and appear more as free damage and something to avoid.

nimble zodiac
#

It’s better than those times where you think you have a 3000 IQ flank going on and the whole enemy team happened to be sitting at their spawn deciding where to go when you spot them

stiff edge
#

but they're free farm
they just sit there with a big chunk of hp waiting to be farmed
if they're on your own team, better carry harder, more for yourself

noble quail
#

I think this channel is about tank balance, not matchmaking balance.

But still, I don't want to get 1 shotted in my tier 8 medium by a 183 because of the old +2/-2 matchmaking. I haven't experienced +2/-2, but I'm sure there's those scenarios where tier 8 meds getting oneshotted by a 183

arctic galleon
#

@noble quail
You bet there will be, you can one-hit tier 9s using HESH and the max roll skill for 1625 damage.

muted rampart
#

@noble quail it wasn t that much of It. If i remember correctly +1/-1 was introduced just few updates after 183 and not many people had this tank. You could meet 1 183 for maybe 5-10 games and you had to be stupid to just go in on it esspecialy when it literally had really good armor. (Better hull and around 250 on the turret)

noble quail
#

oh, but if +2/-2 will be added back I think it's gonna be a bad idea

ok, other topic that talks about a tank
Does the T28 need a buff?

minor plover
#

Yeah

bitter perch
scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole none sense
when u max the gun arc its armor is increased by 20-30 effective if u give it 300 it willl get 330-340 angled with max gun arc
its extremely slow so make it like a badger tier for tier or just simplly buff it whatever its totally paper to ap rounds to everything with max gun arc

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> none sense when u max the gun arc its armor is increased...

That “none sense” goes straight back to you. The Tortoise has 20 degrees gun arch to either side. Add 40 degrees angled armour on the left side of the gun (I won’t even add the ten degrees of gundepression). Now, if you add the two you get an effective angle of around 45 degrees, resulting in an effective thickness of 426mm on the left side of the gun.

On the right side of the gun it’s a bit of a different story, because you have armour angled at 50 degrees, which results (if you use the gun arc) in 53 degrees effective angle. That results in nigh 500mm effective armour. The flat part is obviously only giving you 20 degrees which is the weakest part with only 320mm effective armour.

The area around the gun that is flat would also be the same deal as the flat part to the right of the gun.

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole lmao
again more none sense
the check armor inspector
including only the gun arc its like i said only gives 30 effective give or take
and the portion that is more angled has less thickness which obviously if you buff it again will have less thickness but same effective as the flat part it will be 330-340 at max gun arc angle
while your other side is even weaker since it has bad angles and bad thickness
right now heavies can penetrate it with max gun arc using AP rounds literally standard ammo a tank that is extremely slow with "armor" as its strong suit
thats paper it should be 300 unagnled on the strong side and the other side since its weaker would probably be 280-290 un angled
using gun arc and gun depression maxed out its 250 on the flat cheek right now which is still paper to heavy tanks with 260 AP which almost all have

maybe make it 330 effective when its gun arc is maxed out

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> lmao again more none sense the check armor inspector incl...

Let me present you: The armour calculating formula

Nominal thickness divided by cosinus of impact angle from the normal equals effective armour thickness

or

(Thickness)/cos(angle) = effective thickness

I calculated the armour values using the real impact angles and the nominal thickness of 300mm, as it was proposed by you.

My presented numbers are factually accurate. You are only writing opinion pieces that couldn't be further from reality

nimble zodiac
#

I already did the calculations for more or less 300mm effective armor when unangled. If they angle, the lowerplate would be harder to hit, and on the left, the cupola would also be harder to hit when it’s like a dish as I’ve proposed.

But if we were to deny that set of changes to armor, how about making it around 250mm effective flat? Match the Jagdtiger’s superstructure while being a slower TD with a more armored lower front plate

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole your saying armor inspector is incorrect ?
actually i dont care this conversation is pointless
make the effective thickness 330 with maxed out gun arc on the flat area where there is no cupola the rest should be 330 effective as well but it will have less thickness as it is more angled
and remove the cupola completely
so it will be 330 effective with maxed out gun arc will make it viable because its lower plate isnt a weak spot

remote oriole
jagged crescent
#

Nominal armor is the thickness of the plate
Effective Armor factors angling

nimble zodiac
#

Retract statement, they meant from the front, where angled plates are present regardless

latent snow
#

holy .... nerf the annihilators turret traverse speed, i was in an amx 13 57 and the thing was able to track me with his tracks locked

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole see? more none sense not that i didnt understand your math your just saying none sense
i said it should have 300 effective thickness un angled (not angling the tank) not its actual thickness i said (effective)
you didnt understand my statement

full token
#

yeah he is saying that 300mm is too much to give. You then say that its only 330mm effective at most because angling only gives 30mm extra, and you use armor inspector to make a point. Then he says that youre wrong, and uses maths. You reject the maths and say it is none sense

sinful leaf
#

😂

dense talon
#

@scarlet fjord bruh if armor isnt angled and is 300 effective mm then it has to be 300 actual mm, u dumb

remote oriole
nimble zodiac
#

Yes, flat plates will be 300mm thick, and the angled plates on the front will be weaker than 300mm, but their new armor and the angle will be as effective as 300mm

@remote oriole I believe he left it in just to clarify that the tank itself isn’t turned at all

dense yoke
#

i thought 240-250 mm on tortoise frontal side armor or cheeks would be enough.
But others share different opinions, about this matter.

remote oriole
versed tide
#

Why buff tortoise I don’t want another jg tiger which is too good already

muted rampart
#

@versed tide but tortoise even with really good armor won t be as broken because it s going only 20 km/h and can be outmanouvered way easier

nimble zodiac
#

Let alone it gets outtraded by Jagd

dense yoke
#

tor has a cupola, that t7 can pen it 🙂

versed tide
muted rampart
#

@versed tide but it won t be second jagdtiger

versed tide
dense yoke
#

nah.

versed tide
#

Or maybe better turn rate and p2w ratio and 30 kph and remove cupola

sudden granite
#

No the tort is supposed to be heavy frontline, give it armor so it can actually survive and dont buff speed to not make it broken

minor minnow
#

Tbh I say undo the nerfs it received all those years ago and buff the armor while keeping the cupola the same. It needs at least some form of weak points

scarlet fjord
#

@dense talon your the one who's dumb
angling armor yourself
not the actual superstructure being angled
read first and think
the i said 300 mm effective
(without angling your tank head on)
the tank itself has its own angled armor thats why i said 300mm effective
not thickness

dense talon
#

"see? more none sense not that i didnt understand your math your just saying none sense
i said it should have 300 effective thickness un angled (not angling the tank) not its actual thickness i said (effective)
you didnt understand my statement"

Yeah you totally said that @scarlet fjord dummy dum dum

dense yoke
#

Tort with more speed, would still be worse Jagdtiger

versed tide
scarlet fjord
#

@dense talon AHHAHAH
its literally infront of you are you serious?
WHAT DOES IT SAY?
300 effective thickness
not nominal thickness
activate your brain lol
and when i say unangled
i mean facing the tank without the player angling the armor
your also the one that said "just skip the tank" weak mindset please refrain from none sense here

this is Unangled if its still unclear to you

📎 unknown.png
deft owl
#

Tortoise needs to have a 280-270mm effective front armor. Tier 10s and some tier 9s can easily penetrate its lower plate with standart rounds.

dense talon
#

@scarlet fjord you literally say 300 mm effective armor, and mind you, I quote you un angled (not angling the tank) which means it should have 300 mm effective unangled, unangled armor while not angling the tank is literally the same as its actual thickness bruh

remote oriole
#

Why do you want to make the Tortoise impenetrable for standard ammunition?

dark glen
#

Make every DPM TD be pennable by gold only without hatches, ez balancing

scarlet fjord
#

@dense talon your still so off omg bro
LISTEN
300 mm EFFECTIVE THICKNESS (the armor thickness + angle on the armor by design)
(PLAYER NOT ANGLING ARMOR)
its not flat its angled
armor itself is angled by design OMG
unangled refers to a player not angling the tank
srsly are you trolling?

@remote oriole Because its extremely slow and its supposed to be heavily armored
Jagtiger is unpennable to AP on upper plate but yet it has more alpha more pen much more DPM more mobility etc etc
and its 90% red to almost everything standard ammo at tier 9
(for Tortoise after buff) everyone will still pen with gold
but u can troll bounce HEAT ammo with your gun after you shoot someone and meds wont pen with 245 standard its so paper right now its kinda sad
280 effective i agree with wont be a bad idea
when u angle it with gun arc and gun depression it will be great

deft owl
#

Cuppola still will be a weakspot. Currently the whole frontal armor is a weakspot.

nimble zodiac
#

How about my proposal wihtout the removal of the cupola?

full token
#

leave the cupola buff the armor

fiery dagger
#

Yup. And then you get the usual AT style. Great gun, actually good armour, weak cupola, which you can hide if you manage to pick cover intuitively, so the line becomes consistent. (Except for the 183 which should have been replaced)

@minor minnow imagine Su-122-54 as well...↓

minor minnow
remote oriole
#

It is supposed to be heavily armoured, yes, but it is not supposed to be impenetrable. The important part here is that unlike the Jagdtiger the Tortoise doesn't actually have a weak lower plate, and it also has way better gun archs and depression.

I don't know, but the goal here should be balance and not the next big op vehicle. And I think a proposal that seeks to eliminate the weakspots and make the front thicker than any standard ammo can hope to defeat is one that doesn't seek to balance tanks, but one that only seeks to make an underperforming tank op

scarlet fjord
#

how
its paper to tier 8 heavies standard ammo everywhere
how would it be op
heavies at tier 9 have tier 10 guns
which means most tanks have enough pen to deal with 300 effective which would get about 330 using gun depression and gun arc
since its a flat cheek it wont improve much
but the other side hass a hatch
it wont be op jagtiger is insane right now but thats ok to have better (everything) almost but tortoise shouldn't have armor at all with weaker gun and weaker mobility
thats balance though right?

full token
#

small buffs not big are better

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord how its paper to tier 8 heavies standard ammo everywhere how would it be op heav...

Do you even read what I say?

I get the impression that you are just playing your ideas on repeat and don't actually read what I say. Your last reply completely missed the point of my post, and I am honestly baffled how you managed to make the jump from my post to what you said in your post. And this isn't the first time today, earlier you conveniently ignored all the background information I provided to my calculations to call them wrong (they are right, I checked them multiple times). However, since you reassured me that you actually understand what I say I am left wondering:

Do you read what I say?

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole i read none sense all the time
you calculated 300 nominal thickness
to me saying "300 effective thickness unangled"
and unangled is a term here used daily
which refers to a player not angling the tank
so your calculation might be right
but your calculating the wrong thing
and for the 2nd thing what are you taking?
no actually what?
it has nothing to do with what you say?
actually what are you taking?

nimble zodiac
#

Ok 300mm upper hull on flat plates, angled plates should be 300mm effective, lower plate remains the same, and cupola remains

Case closed ||Actually don’t, this is a half-joke||

scarlet fjord
#

lel

jagged crescent
#

ok. It goes from being an ap magnet, to being a gold magnet

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> i read none sense all the time you calculated 300 nominal...

"300 effective unangled"
That's what you said. And even those who eventually understood you had to take a second look and thought. And if you actually realised what I said, and what I misunderstood, why did you not pinpoint it and tell me?

About the second part:
I was saying that you make the Tortoise op by removing the cupola and making the front impenetrable to standard rounds.
Your response:
"its paper to tier eight heavies standard ammo everywhere"
"but the other side has a hatch"
"it won't be op jagtiger is insane right now"

The only parts that were somehow relevant were "heavies at tier 9 have tier 10 guns" followed by the questionable conclusion for tier eight, nine and ten: "which means most tanks have enough pen to deal with 300 effective"
I don't think that I have to point out that the second statement is not a logical deduction of the first.

versed tide
#

What I think should happen is remove the cupola and increase the top speed by 5 and nerf the jg tiger

real bison
#

nah, just buff the cupola and frontal armour a little

versed tide
#

I think they should make the jg tiger like the 8.8 at t9 (so with similar stats tier for tier but it has a 128 as well)

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole it did you just again misunderstood the
"tier 8 heavies can penetrate it"
with that i tried to solidify the
fact that its severely underpowered
which means it will be VERY difficult to make it over powered Wargaming make tests before they implement changes they dont just shoot at the clouds blindfolded waiting for a bird to fall
you will need gold to penetrate it in its only (viable situation) which is using gun arc and if your very lucky + gun depression on the side of the tank that has no hatch so what?
so your saying tanks that need gold to pen something that has a very very situational armor profile will be op?
do you know even after you buff it how situational its armor profile will be?
that hatch alone demolishes its options
u cant hull down cuz cupola without hiding it with a wall
you can only use your gun arc to angle your (flat side) of your super structure
the other side has a hatch
problem is if you remove the hatch its whole upper super structure is a weak spot so you did nothing much

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> it did you just again misunderstood the "tier 8 heavies c...

I don’t know why you believe that it’s hard to make a tank that used to be underpowered overpowered, but either way, congratulations, you managed to propose a way to achieve that so... GG, I guess.
(There is logical need for a connection between a pre-balance version and a post-balance version. Pretending that there is one is quite simply false and speculation. It is not hard to make an underpowered tank op).

If - and I stress that - if you remove the cupola and - may I stress that as well? - and if you make the effective armour higher than high standard ammunition pen the armour will not be situational. It will be practically the same in every situation; too weak for prammo and too strong for standard. End of the story. It is noteworthy that I explicitly stated that I talk about this configuration.

Now, if you only buff the armour you can differentiate between cupola-hidden and cupola-exposed, making the armour situational. However, it is not entirely right to rule out playing hulldown and angling, because those playstyles will decrease the likelihood of people hitting your weakspot, however, as with all AT tanks you should rather try to stick to cover than to ridge-lines. This is probably the most balanced proposal made so far.

The last option is simply removing the cupola, making the Tortoise a ridge line monster that is also capable of fighting in cities as long as you keep overangling the front. It will be very effective in both hulldown and being close to cover and it will be resistant to most standard rounds if angled correctly (it already is, however most people switch to the cupola if they can’t penetrate the superstructure). This will probably make the Tortoise the most flexible and the most interesting to play, however the lack of weakspots will make it very prone to being overbuffed, effectively causing it to be op and it will also not really fit into the AT line.

I don’t think that the Tortoise is nearly as limited as you believe

scarlet fjord
#

it wont be op its too slow for fast paced meta to be op
jagtiger has armor which u need gold for if he spams hull down with that broken gun but we dont have an issue with that do we?
most heavies at tier 9 and 10
actually pretty much every heavy will still pen tortoise rather easy with gold rounds after hatch removal and armor buff
its extremely slow its easy to counter tanks like this badger is down right unpennable and yet people hate it as a tank because its too slow for the fast paced meta
you forgot how valuable mobility is i am assuming
you dont have to remove the hatch
you can leave it but definitely make it 250 so that you dont eat HESH in certain scenarios like 1v1 situation with a 183 or a Conway
this has so much more to talk about but i dont feel like writing 30 more rows of text

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord it wont be op its too slow for fast paced meta to be op jagtiger has armor which...

Interesting that you call a meta where heavy tanks rule “fast paced”. Also, your last text is full of assumptions, most of them incorrect but it’s not like that stopped you.

Thanks to the limited gun traverse it’s a lot easier to avoid a Jagdtiger than a Tortoise. And nobody said that “we” don’t have an issue with the Jagdtiger, so put your cynicism right back where it came from.

After your proposed armour buff nobody will “easily” pen the Tortoise, especially not if the driver has any skill and overangles the front. You know, let me send an assumption right back at you: You don’t know how to make the current Tortoise work. Because if you did you’d know that even now you can bounce shots if you don’t insist on just facing the enemy straight all the time. Sidescraping works too, by the way (although it involves a lot of baiting).

Mobility can’t and mustn’t be an excuse for overbuffing a tank. Dealing with low mobility is also a skill that people need to acquire, and just overcompensating won’t get anyone anywhere. Think of the German superheavies that perform really well despite their low mobility - and that includes tanks that are known for their notorious weakspots such as the VK 100 and the VK 72

scarlet fjord
#

the meta isnt fast paced?
E5 IS-4 113 etc ?
DPM based 2 of the heavies mobility based all 3 heavies
isnt fast paced meta?
and most of the none sense you sprouted out just now are insults not facts
mobility is supposed to be compensated
if you have nothing what are you on the battlefield?
your slow and paper you have a good gun but not the best
why should i drive it?
and you know how to fix the problem with your arrogant but short sighted way of thinking?
weak mind set tbh
German superheavies have actual armor and Maus has 3200 hit points on top of it
your just sprouting out the none sense that suits you but dont mention the important things

still hearth
#

Idk but t 6 and t8 meta on the Asian server seems to be at15s and hellcats

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord the meta isnt fast paced? E5 IS-4 113 etc ? DPM based 2 of the heavies mobility ...

Those are still heavies, and not exactly the fastest tanks in the game. So no, it’s not a fast paced meta. It’s a rushing meta, but not a fast paced one.

The lack of mobility does not need to be compensated, but balanced. This balance can come in the form of armour, firepower or a mix of it. However, the lack of mobility does not prompt a need for both strong armour and strong firepower. The initial balance concept behind the Tortoise was very strong firepower and good gun arch/ depression and it did work for a good while. This absolute firepower advantage is lost, and the tank is underperforming compared to most other tanks, but it doesn’t change that the Tortoise still possesses very formidable firepower. Combining that with good armour is playing with fire, because you are running into the risk of creating a tank that controls entire sections of the map.

I don’t know if you noticed, but I named two of the German superheavies that don’t have great armour and like the Tortoise suffer from an abundance of weakspots most tanks can penetrate with standard ammunition. The Maus was not one of them.

If I were to actually insult you you wouldn’t be here complaining about me ‘insulting’ you for returning the favour of making baseless assumptions. You think that I’m arrogant and that I spout nonsense. I think you can’t spell nonsense

nimble zodiac
#

Can we just give the main armor a substantial buff, preferably prammo only for tier 8s and keep the little weakspot on the lower plate and keep the cupola?

Maybe it'll be a relatively comparable T95 but with a taller profile and a fast punching gun, but a Jagdtiger with more utility, less speed, and less effective armor

@deft owl the weak point on the lower plate is like T1 Heavy's, small in height but stretching across the hull. It's much better than just shooting generally anywhere on the hull

Dude, I'm talking about JUST the lower plate, I'm comparing Tort's lower plate to T1 Heavy's

deft owl
#

Why the hell keep lower plate weak? Whats the damn point of the buff in the first place if you keep lower plate weak? It needs a buff to whole frontal armor except cuppola, Even cuppola could use some armor buff.

Its stupid to compare with T1 heavy. T1 is a fast heavy tank in tier 5 and HASNT got any cuppola. Dumb comparision.

You shouldnt compare. They are not even close.

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole German heavies do have armor all of them its effective enough for what they are
E100 having the weakest one has the fire power to compensate of it but still viable armor
and yes you are arrogant and insulting
the fact that you said that is proof
you think people are that afraid of your insults over a keyboard?
pffff please grow up
rushing based meta?
hahahah this is where it gets funny
113 has medium level mobility
E5 can be a medium tank with the op speed boost
and the IS-4
well we dont need to talk here its a russian heavy
it isnt slow
now for that abomination of a phrase you used
"rushing meta" are you serious right now?
fast paced meta is the current meta idk if u want to accept it or not frankly dont care
the heavies keep up with meds and are being spammed cuz they are insane
not as fast as meds but keep up with meds
and they have DPM which makes the meta fast paced
this conversation you turned it into an argument over who is arrogant and what the tier 10 meta is
over the fact that the tortoise is underperforming

nimble zodiac
#

Just the lower plates, the shaping and effectiveness of them strike me as similar

Exactly why I’m just using the lower plate’s profiles. I can’t think of many tanks that round out and only the middle remains remotely penetrable

📎 image0.png 📎 image1.png
karmic portal
#

You guys are thinking too hard. Just give it super speed boost and reactive armor and problem solved ez

Epic balancing

I actually wouldn’t mind tortoise being immune to standard shells as long as it has a couple of weak points. And a weak lower plate isn’t that bad, it can go hull down and hide it. Maybe don’t make it too weak, make it so it’s only pennable straight on, not at an angle

deft owl
#

So? Rest of the tanks not similar at all.

We got cuppola for that. At series should be only penetrateable reliably through their cuppola unless its an extreme case like Churchill Gun carrier or Isu-152 which can penetrate anything frontally. At tanks are suppose to be Front line Assault tds. You shouldnt pen them easily.

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> German heavies do have armor all of them its effective en...

I hope you have a mirror.

E100 does not have the weakest armour of all German superheavies, especially not if you include tanks at tier eight and above. The E100 is in fact the best sidescraper in the entire game, and it’s really easy to make the armour work. If I had to pick the tier ten German superheavy with the worst armour I would probably take the VK 72 because of the numerous weakspots, but I would classify the VK 90 as the one with the hardest-to-use armour.

113 has medium mobility - forwards. It turns like a ship.
The speedboost only lasts for a short while so you can hardly use it the entire game.

If you want to include dpm in the ‘fast paced’ definition then the Tortoise is ‘fast paced’, because the dpm is one of its strengths.

If you actually look up who started the “you are arrogant”-thing, then please use the mirror I so kindly hoped you have. About what the tier ten meta is, as I said, it’s a rushing meta. You exchange a few shots and then the rushing starts. That’s what happens basically every game, and those who rush better usually win the game. That doesn’t mean that the rushing is necessarily fast, no, it can literally be a Maus rolling over the enemy team.

Oh and, I also wasn’t the one who brought the whole meta stuff into this discussion. It is remarkable how you accuse me of everything you do

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole you have serious game performance issues mate
E100 is the best side scraping tank?
i asked you earlier what you are on but now I'm starting to add up the possibilities
VK 90 does that even sparkle your mind a little bit?
E100 best sidescraper? oh god...
i'm just gonna skip that i think you know where i am gonna go there VK 90 maus etc etc
anyway you brought up the arrogance and meta discussion
because you start insulting me i call you arrogant then you argue with me about it
i say the meta is fast paced you argue with me about the tier 10 meta after that
you bring up the whole conversation i used those words in the conversation because they were related to the situation you brought yourself into
and now for your really really sad comment about the DPM thing with the tortoise
face paced meta is valued in heavy tanks where the heavy tank has DPM and importantly ways to execute the DPM such as mobility and armor mainly mobility as heavies dont struggle with armor too much
the tortoise has great DPM really great
but you neither have armor nor mobility to execute your DPM properly
and now for the most mind blowing part of your message
E5 has a time based consumable
you think E5 should circle around the enemy constantly and never stop moving is that it?
it uses the speed boost gets into position fired a few rounds and by the time he's done he uses the speed boost again to relocate quickly and fight in the other flank
113 players you obviously cant understand the 113s play style
it turns like a ship? ughhh
if your any good just put yourself into situations where you get in advanced positions before anything else which you will and using ur insane DPM where your traverse doesn't matter AT ALL near allies where if you get pushed and if ur circled your protected by other guns

E100 turret is paper to medium tanks running calibrated shells at many angles
good at sidescraping
not even close to the best

lunar niche
#

E100 gets penned through the tracks if not at an steep angle.

nimble zodiac
#

Just sidescrape defensively

deft owl
#

From a totally defensive perspective Maus is obviously the best side scraper. After Maus we have Vk 90.

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> you have serious game performance issues mate E100 is the...

@lunar niche Yes, like every tank. That’s why sidescraping is usually performed at a steep angle.

Harbinger:
I don’t know what you expect from me, but I will obviously dispute statements that I disagree with and that support your positions. That’s how arguing works... And I never disputed that I’m arrogant, that’s just another assumption you are so keen to call “insults” once I use them against you.

About the E100, the side armour of it is absolutely excellent. Unlike the flat hull sides of the Maus and VK 90 the E100 hull has a lot of very thick spaced side armour which allows it to sidescrape effectively even against HE. Furthermore, the turret can be angled like the Maus does, something the VK 90 is incapable of, thus allowing people to shoot the cheeks of the turret. I don’t think that it’s too far off to call the E100 the best sidescraper, especially considering that it only needs to expose for a very short time thanks to the high alpha.

The comment about the Tortoise was just to show how illogical it is to use dpm to define a fast paced meta, but only look at the mobility of the Tortoise to say that it doesn’t fit at all. That is still true.

Those explanations of the playstyle of the two heavies are not necessary for our discussion about the meta. Please stay on topic.

scarlet fjord
#

you argued that the meta isnt what i called it so i have to correct your meta idea
and DPM is a key element to the meta because DPM defines how "fast paced" it is
E100s hull on the sides and upper hull is ridiculous yes
problem is lower plate is as big as the upper plate
and your turret is flat paper to meds let alone 376 HEAT
ok back to topic
tortoise has fire power
counting gun angles as a positive trait is unfair
for a tank that has a cupola lets be honest gun depression is only useful if your hiding your cupola side
giving it mobility will never happen as wargaming like to keep the AT line slow as it should be
giving it armor people cry about that idea cuz they cant aim 🤦‍♂️
idk what to even argue with you at this point
if you make its armor pennable to AP rounds its still trash
you cant give it mobility cuz its a tortoise
and no point in buffing the gun because the gun isnt the problem
the only option is buffing the armor
and you have to make it red to AP or its a pointless tank
its not hard to deal with tanks like the badger which the tortoise will become
you cant penetrate
OKAY go around lol light tanks medium tanks these exist for it
and as i called it fast paced meta means an E5 tired of dealing with the hull down badger pops the broken speed boost and gets to a position where its armor is pointless
same for the tortoise tier 9 is filled with tanks that counter it
IS-8 born tank to counter a buffed tortoise
340 HEAT and ridiculous mobility and nice accuracy

open plank
#

Oof the tension in the air. Just wooow

nimble zodiac
#

@scarlet fjord gun angles vertically, horizontally, or both?

All gun angles should be considered for balance, say, a turreted TD has more utility than a non-turreted TD

scarlet fjord
#

@nimble zodiac they should be when your tank is viable lol
yes you expose less of your tank
yes you have more options to shoot from
but then again
you are paper and slow
and everyone knows slow paper tanks are not good tanks
unless the gun is completely broken like say a 183 gun in its days
it should be considered a balancing factors when it actually impacts your armor in its case
tortoise was a nice tank before wargaming buffed almost every god damn tech tree tank
in existance
except the tortoise XD

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord you argued that the meta isnt what i called it so i have to correct your meta id...

For TDs it is a big difference how much gun arch they get, because it is their substitute for a turret. TDs with a good gun arch have no disadvantage compared to turreted tanks when coming around a corner, they are able to angle their armour while staying on target and they also have an advantage when it comes to shooting people trying to circle you. It is one of the defining statistics of the gameplay of a TD.
Gundepression is obviously always important, because it determines how far you have to drive over a ridge to shoot an enemy, regardless of wether you are paper or not.

About the armour;
I made a post describing the effects of different approaches in a post further up, and I described multiple times why I consider the combination of strong frontal armour and no weakspots imbalanced. The main issue here is that the Tortoise would be nearly impossible to defeat for most medium tanks, because even if you track it it will most likely still be able to aim and shoot at you.
To cut a long story short here, the Tortoise would become very strong against any kind of tank and would force everyone to use prammo on it, which effectively decreases the enemy firepower causing it to be even more devastating when it can use the dpm.

Therefore I consider it necessary that a frontal weakspot (to standard ammunition) remains, and that’s the reason why I opposed your proposed buff from the start.

scarlet fjord
#

i didnt say gun arc is pointless
i said its not a fair thing to consider as a stats thats comparable to something like armor or mobility
obviously way less important of a stat
you can still give it a weak spot
i dont mind that
just not 225 mm effective armor...
and when your using gun depression on tortoise btw
people can see your hatch way before you can see them 😉

remote oriole
#

This discussion took way too long to get to a conclusion.

But anyways, I think it would actually be interesting to see how the Tortoise would perform without the cupola. I think that I’d have a lot of fun playing it because it would be like driving a (weaker) E100 turret on tracks, and you have to overangle and sidescrape to bounce shots

karmic portal
#

Bruh I thought my half trolling discussion yesterday was bad. I guess I hadn’t seen the professionals

@hardy hazel lux and harbringer

hardy hazel
#

Who are the pros?

muted rampart
#

@hardy hazel pro players/really good players

whole flower
#

i think droodles is the best pro in the game he is my idol

dark pike
#

false

minor minnow
#

Kids these days.... you do you dude but HisRoyalFatness is where it’s at

whole flower
#

no droodles would win in 1v1 so he is better.!

unique scaffold
#

Get out of this channel

versed tide
#

Droodles is not the best pro by far

thick rover
#

hahahaha

pseudo hedge
jagged crescent
#

Idk if you guys realize but he's just acting as a troll

thick rover
#

oh no how could that be

jagged crescent
#

Knowledge!

winter wren
#

Who's idea was the Annihilator? Like they honestly need a talking to.

A tank that rapidly fires 3 200 damage rounds, doing about 600 damage, as well as having armour that requires no skill to protect, enough pen to go through anything like butter, and having extremely good mobility. For what downside? A 14 second reload? That's basically nothing

It's easier to pen the VK.100.01P frontally (with most t7s) than it is an Annihilator, and the Vk is slower, has less total alpha, and a slower reload.
oH bUt JuSt ShOoT tHe ToP oF tHe TuRrEt
They can aim up and give the entire area not gun block, but because they have a hinged turret, they just turn the whole turret up

fathom basin
#

Grille REALLY need camo buff, like, how the hell T110E3 a tank who has armor has the best camo rating than Grille?

unique scaffold
#

That’s entirely wrong vk is easier to pen anni is a problem everyone knows and they know it

teal raptor
loud kernel
broken root
#

i think that the 263 needs mantlet armor buff so it would be usable in hulldown. It has already bad gun depression, why ruin its hulldown capabilities? 350mm would be nice.

coarse harness
fallow eagle
#

Buff e4 hatch

remote oriole
#

I mean, the Annihilator is op but that video was just a meme

thick rover
broken root
#

i think it should be impenetrable in hulldown except for calibrated heavys or tds, balance factor is that very bad gun depression so very poor choice of hulldown positions.
also second thing, leave the 140 armor and mobility like this, but increase the dpm. Therefore making it deadly in good player hands but average in average player hands

orchid grove
#

263 with a good mantlet would be obscene. -4 gun depression is bad, but not nearly bad enough considering a mantlet buff would instantly turn 263 into a Badger with ludicrous DPM and mobility.

If you wanted 263 with a strong mantlet to be even remotely balanced, you'd have to obliterate the gun stats, or give the thing literally like +1 gun depression or something

dull sluice
#

Buff Maus upper plate! It’s not ok when is4 snapshots upper plate without even aiming

remote oriole
#

The 263 bounces shots by using its mobility. And defeats enemies by using its pen and dpm. The weak mantlet balances those strong aspects, and I think one should rather focus on promoting the playstyle of a tank rather than just removing weakspots to give everyone a hard time against them frontally.

I don’t think that a game with tanks without any frontal weakspots would be fun

scarlet fjord
#

I disagree with mantlet armor buff of that degree it would make it ridiculous
maybe give it -5 degrees u cant buff its weak spot like that its lower plate is too small
it would make the tank ridiculous in pubs
its kinda power crept a little a tiny bit
but it definitely doesnt need armor buff

dense talon
#

Its quite easy to bounce stuff using its mobility, the mantlet becomes much more of a baiting spot rather an actual weakspot. So I too agree the obj 263 is fine as it is

bitter perch
#

the mantlet is really troll, I bounced 3 apcr shots on it in a row once in my t110e4. probably better troll than strong I think.

thick rover
#

Here is an interesting read by Posit1ve just that it wasn't posted on this channel..

" 263 is tough. I personally think the tank is probably underpowered, but at the same time, I'm honestly kinda fine with that. Since every game inevitable needs to have a few subpar tanks (as perfect balance isn't really even close to feasible) I don't really mind 263 being one of the tanks towards the bottom of the totem pole.

That said, if I were to buff the 263, it's honestly tough, because 263 is one of those tanks that can very quickly become really stupid, really fast, if you're too liberal with the buffs.

This is cuz 263 is already theoretically really strong in a lot of areas, it's already fast, and it already has a super high DPM gun with good accuracy, and any further buffs to the armor, as I said in balance discussion could very quickly turn the 263 into a ludicrously fast badger. 263 is really only held back by softer stats, like the rear mounted gun, -4 gun depression, poor gun arc, and long length, but 2 of those features are baked into the tank, and buffing the gun depression and arc could also make the tank too flexible for what it is.

Given all this, honestly, the only buffs I could envision that wouldn't completely break the tank would be to buff the gun some more, either accuracy, or DPM, and possibly the traverse."

I don't think he minds but if he does I will delete this

scarlet fjord
#

exactly like i said u cant buff the tanks weak spot it will make it ridiculous
its kinda power crept yes in certain scenarios its kind of stupid though
so its kinda iffy for devs to touch it because its hard to balance
yeah maybe traverse buff or accuracy buff would be a nice addition
DPM maybe still kinda iffy though

orchid grove
#

@scarlet fjord Well, I guess we're more or less on the same page lol. 263 is just super tough to balance because really, if you buff any of the weaknesses, 263 can almost instantly just become a broken OP tank, which is why I'm kinda fine with more or less leaving it as it is now. It's probably a little underpowered, but not devastatingly so, and so the marginal benefit to buffing doesn't really seem worth the risk of potentially turning it into some ridiculous Obj 268 v.4 sort of monster tank

scarlet fjord
#

A lot of buffing is happening compared to nerfing in the game though i would love to see the E5's dumb consumables removed and IS-4 nerfed a little change the meta its so boring right now
in the past you could see the matchups were fun
there was grille IS-4 IS-7 BC leopard 1 etc etc a lot of different tanks in tourneys which was diverse and fun
now you literally see
E5 IS-4 spam
with some T22 medium/obj 140 in the mix
on very rare ocasions you get tanks like 50B maus vickers for spotting here and there but its basically almost always E5 and IS-4 spam

devout flower
#

I think the E5 is fine as is. It is the is4 that needs a nerf. Too much HP, armor, and pen make the tank significantly better than any other tier 10 heavy.

orchid grove
#

@scarlet fjord That's because WG has an unreasonable hatred for any comp meta that isn't IS-4 spam.

First twister was Obj 140 spam, and that caused WG to significantly nerf the Soviet meds, as well as the penetration on all tier 10 meds as well

And then we had IS-4 spam for like the next 2 years.

But, a year ago, WG simultaneously added Foch autoloader, FV heavy consumables, and Progetto, so the meta moved away from IS-4 spam during twister.

And despite WG's balance charts literally showing all the classes finally being more or less balanced, WG then explicitly stated that they were buffing heavy HP pools because quote "you don't see IS-4 or Maus".

And now here we are. IS-4 spam once again.

WG literally decided to ruin their game balance purely because they explicitly wanted more IS-4 spam in comp. It's absolutely ridiculous

jagged crescent
#

Would it surprise anybody if I think that they're just trying to see a variation of all types of classes in the tourny meta or naw
Granted its a terrible job

scarlet fjord
#

i dont understand why they want IS-4 spam
i really cant comprehend it
is it just bias lol
at least change it a bit to IS-7 and IS-4 from russians and make the E5 no longer downright dumb tank
make the other heavies an addition and some meds and tds like it was almost as random as pubs in the past
how do they expect me to continue watching their twisters if its IS-4 spam

remote oriole
orchid grove
#

@jagged crescent They definitely don't. The comp meta right before the heavy tank buff was perfect. Teams used a blend of meds and heavies (and lots of different ones too). It was diverse, dynamic and interesting. This was the balance chart before the heavy tank buff. On the whole, on this chart, meds dealt slightly more damage, and heavies had slightly higher winrates. Exactly what you'd expect/want

Balance was in a near perfect state.

And then they literally came out and announced the heavy HP buff on a stream, where they literally said their rationale was because there wasn't any IS-4 or Maus being used in Twister.

It's unbelievably stupid and irrational

@remote oriole Except in this case, what was good for comp (diverse meta) was good for pubs, as you can see by this balance chart. WG ruined it by explicitly trying to make comp unbalanced so that people would spam IS-4 and in turn, this bled into pubs too

*Also, regarding the spoiler, I have no idea why the image is in a spoiler, and I don't know how to get rid of it

📎 SPOILER_6.png
scarlet fjord
#

I have a feeling wargaming wont change the IS-4 spam meta
not any time soon at least

distant river
#

@scarlet fjord I think the bias is purely from marketing. The line includes the KV2 so it's going to be started by a lot of new players, but then after that the grinds get long and not very nice at all which pushes people into buying free XP/prems for credits to help them through the grind or just giving up. This means more profit but more people leaving, so if you make the IS4 the go-to heavy for tournaments, and one of the strongest tanks at tier 10 then the community and YouTubers will recommend to new players that the grind is worth it, which stops people from giving up as easily. If the IS4 was bad then WG would probably see quite a few less people grinding and spending money on the line and game in general. It might be reading wayyy too deeply into it, but it makes sense to me.

remote oriole
#

Decisions made in regards to tournaments take effect on regular battles, which can both have positive and negative consequences. I think that the regular battles are the most important gamemode, so balance should be focused on those first and the rest (ratings and tournaments) second.

There is most likely a correlation between what is good for tournament and what is good for regular battles, but at the same time there are significant differences, which is why there are tanks that are supposedly only good in regular battles and other tanks that can take very specialised roles in tournaments that they could never or only rarely hope to fulfil in regular battles.

Another thing that I think that is worthy to remember is that during that very balanced period tier ten regular battles gameplay became very static and very one-dimensional. I personally found it very boring, but that's just a personal opinion.

orchid grove
#

@scarlet fjord It's not going away because IS-4 spam meta is exactly what they want, and they've stated as much.

It's unbelievably frustrating, since I'm sure that most comp players don't want to only play IS-4 spam, and viewers probably also don't want to watch IS-4 spam every year.

And then of course, that's not to mention pubs, where IS-4 is incredibly boring to play as well.

Such unreasonable desire for the meta to be dominated specifically by one tank is completely irrational, and honestly, probably just comes from literally one guy in charge of the balance department. Until that guy gets fired, or gets bored of IS-4s, IS-4 spam is here to stay (and if that ever changes, they'll be sure to adjust balance accordingly to put IS-4 spam back into the meta)

scarlet fjord
#

@distant river that's kinda shooting themselves in the foot because watching IS-4 spam in tournaments for 3 years straight isn't fun
and they will lose a lot of advanced players from the game cuz they are simply bored of it
and i think everyone can agree that the IS-4 is a boring tank
i find the IS-7 way more interesting and i wish they bring it back in the meta
and for the love of god wargaming seriously needs to remove the 376 mm HEAT pen from heavies
this is the main reason why the meta is ridiculous
2800 hit points dumb armor mobility and 376 HEAT spam

@orchid grove i think the same which makes me angry with the game tbh

bitter perch
#

they are looking like they are going for a TD meta to counter the heavy meta here.

distant river
#

The thing is that experienced players don't spend as much as new players so WG are going to focus much more on getting new players in and getting them to separate from the money in their wallets once than on giving something that will appeal to older players. It's a trade off that gives them the most profit while also happening to hurt the playerbase and the games health, but not enough to hurt their profits. @scarlet fjord

orchid grove
#

Oh yeah, that's right, they did say that they wanted to buff TDs.

That's just what comp/pubs needs, 268s to come back into the meta so that we can play like it's 2016 again. Said no player ever

Who in the world wants to play or watch a meta where it's literally just "cap the bases and wait 5 minutes for the enemy to desperation push".

At least with E5/IS-4 spam, there's some sort of rotations/pushes happening. If it reverts to 268/IS-4 meta, I'm going to blow a fuse

And what makes the idea of TD buffs even more stupid is that WG's stated objective for that is "to speed up gameplay and reduce draws"

Yes WG, please buff the class meant to camp in the back and punish aggressive play so that games will be faster. 10/10 big brain game design

remote oriole
#

If they wanted to speed up gameplay they need to buff mediums, or, better, nerf heavies. Right now you mostly have heavies overwhelming a few enemy tanks and then just rolling over the battlefield collecting the remains of the enemy team. Players basically just rush each other and whoever has the better rush wins, which is why I call this a rushing meta

jagged crescent
#

Med penetration buffs ez

orchid grove
#

@remote oriole It's not a rushing meta. Games on average are slower and more drawn out, since neither side can push for half the game, as you can't exactly clear high HP heavy tanks all that quickly, especially in your own heavy tanks. Sure heavy tanks can push against mediums, but it's not like there's any meds really at all in games anymore. Moreover, pubbies are pretty bad at pushing (and highly reluctant to), but they're pretty good at left clicking tanks that are pushing.

This is reflected by the fact that according to WG, there are more draws now, and why they want to speed up the game.

Of course, the proper way to speed up gameplay is to buff autoloaders (the paper ones) and mediums, or nerf heavies, but, WG's balance team is completely incompetent, and wants to buff literally the one class that will further slow the game down

remote oriole
scarlet fjord
#

heavies need to be nerfed they are buffing everything to fix the broke tanks they sold lately which is one of the reason why
but they cant just keep buffing everything they need to start nerfing the dumb IS-4 E5 Spam and stabilize the meta
sure give buffs
but not buffing everything to fix ur unbalanced game
in many games that i play they nerf a lot of things and buff other things at the same patch which helps keep balance in check
wargaming lately are just buffing everything that needs buffs and tanks that dont need buffs get them as well
like jagtiger and E5
why the hell would you give E5 broke consumables i cant understand

full token
#

Why give any tank consumables instead of the regular buffs they’ve done for years

sudden path
#

E5 is fine, the consumables give it mobility to make rotations
It's a heavium, without the consumables it would not be able to compete with the 215b

scarlet fjord
#

it will
215B is kind of in a bad spot in the meta
E5 is ridiculous cuz its insane hull down and has still strong troll armor out in the open for what it is
it does not need IS-7 mobility thats just dumb

bronze zealot
#

What is RU 251 has samespeed going backwards?

unique scaffold
#

Even for comp players it is kinda annoying to play is 4 or e5 all the time. I wish mediums and tds could be apart of the meta

sudden granite
scarlet fjord
#

ah yeah i forgot about the kran right now new tank
but i think its fine being in there since its not really spammed its just used moderately imo
1-2
very rarely 3 krans but thats very rare imo

broken root
#

What do you think about my 140 buff idea, with leaving armor and mobillity asi it is, and buff the dpm to overtake leo 1 just a bit. T62a would be the armored and accurate, and 140 the funny

scarlet fjord
#

wargaming dont wanna buff it because its used in tours almost every time a med is needed if they dont have T22 they use 140
i know it meh in pubs but they cant buff it cuz its already spammed in tours as a med

grizzled sleet
#

Are you talking about a year ago or now? As far as I'm concerned it's pretty much just 62A

fiery dagger
#

You never see T62A in tours.

minor minnow
#

It doesn’t have that speed or hull armor, that’s what I’ve gotten from it

broken root
fallow eagle
#

Because pros play obj 140 properly
T62a is pretty good for new players
Obj 140 is abit tougher for new players to learn
Atleast for me,it was

distant river
scarlet fjord
#

No @fallow eagle
@broken root 140's role is different form 62a's role
62a is a hull down farming machine
140 is a brawler it has hull armor but bad turret
62a is irrelevant in tours cu wwhy use 62a for hull down when u have E5 with much more armor hit points and 374 HEAT pen
obj 140 is also faster than 62a and doesnt need turret armor its just for brawling
in pubs its the opposite
brawling isnt very effective in pubs as it bleeds your hit points
while 62a is more than viable since you can just farm people and u can go anywhere you like and dont need to worry about your team mates just farm people basically

nocturne mauve
#

See what the heavy buffs have caused? It’s just horrible because they outclass everything

real bison
#

used to be able to completely destroy IS-4s in my Leopard 1, can no longer do that due to the fact they have 700 extra hp

twilit crystal
#

again the best way to fix the heavy buff without being called out for nerfing premiums is to nerf heavy tank view range by just removing optics as an option or make it miniscule

broken root
versed tide
#

Well we’re not saying nerf heavies in to the ground but they need nerfing

autumn zodiac
#

I'm a TD player and having been through a Med meta I will take it over a Heavy meta, the Heavy meta punishes every vehicle class, TDs can at least counter a Med meta to a degree via Alpha, Heavies have so much health and such large guns that playing a TD is nearly Asinine

dense walrus
#

but more HP to farm
I'm joking, tired of hearing that excuse myself.

autumn zodiac
#

The HP farm will run you over if you don't harvest it fast enough

real bison
sudden granite
versed tide
#

I still love the wz 120 ft

broken root
autumn zodiac
#

I can outdoor and circle a heavy tank in my WZ-113-FT?

nimble zodiac
#

If you shoot out the turret and tracks 😂

orchid grove
#

Don't forget that when we say heavy spam, we're not always talking about the Maus and VK 72, slow, lumbering tanks with poor DPM.

Tanks like 113 and FV-215b are heavies too guys.

And heavies like those will tear you to shreds if you think that you can outrotate them.

sudden granite
#

Cuz they are slow meds lmao

winged barn
#

But you can out rotate a 113 ._.
Easily
Literally the only heavy you can do it to

autumn zodiac
#

113 has the top speed to kinda square a tank

#

Drive way past it, traverse

#

Repeat

nimble zodiac
#

IS-7 has the same top speed as T-62A, could you imagine an armored T-62A with a 130mm barreling towards you for a facehug?

Disregarding the practicality and lack of acceleration in comparison to 62A, IS-7 got dat HP

nocturne mauve
#

Meds are more suitable to be meta because they are the universal tank, however I just think most heavies are unbalanced

They can have a high speed(consumables) and the ones without consumables probably have an average speed already. They have too much hp to chew through and a heavy push just ruins the whole game. They don’t need to use their armour properly because they just have enough HP to survive anyway..

scarlet fjord
#

they can fix the broken heavy meta by slightly reducing the heavy tank hit point buff not all of it but slightly
and fix the ridiculous 374 HEAT pen
which ruins the meta
it makes TD's unnecessary since heavies have a lot more hit points generally more mobility similar alpha and similar premium pen or rather enough premium pen as 374 HEAT is dumb and should be reduced immediately

karmic portal
#

They need an across the board dpm buff. This would help good players as they can use their dpm and hurt bad players as since they aren’t gonna be shooting or hitting shots, a faster reload won’t do much for them. It’s gonna make games more easy to carry imo. No reason someone should lose a game because it takes them ages to farm a bot e100 with almost 3k hp

@real bison what if I’m in a heavy? And you make 50 seconds sound short.

This is what I don’t like about higher tiers, the hp increases a lot but the dpm increases much less. The tiger 1 and tiger p at tier 7 for example have like 2.4k dpm and like 1,5k hp. The is4 has also about 2.4k dpm but has 2.7k hp. That essentially imo is what makes tier 10 harder, it’s not just that players are better, but that it take forever to kill the bad players

pseudo hedge
#

I would much rather see bad players improve then getting left behind. A game that purely gives the good players advantage will neither be self sufficient money or player wise.

real bison
drowsy plaza
#

@scarlet fjord none of the heavies has a base 370+ base HEAT pen. They are using CS - the best way to fix that is make the rammer go back to its pre 3.8 10% bonus. That way you might see more tanks willing to trade pen for better DPM. Right now for most heavies with HEAT the CS route is the safer option for they can slam folks with it who try to hide weaker areas.

#

Balance has been a bit of a train wreck since 3.8 in my opinion anyway

scarlet fjord
#

i know they use calibrated lol
and no buffing gun rammer is not gonna stop them from switching from calibrated shells trust me they need penetration to trade
they might run rammer on a couple vehicles for brawling but the 374 HEAT spam will stay
only solution is reducing the 340 HEAT and nerfing calibrated maybe as well

drowsy plaza
#

Well if a med all of a sudden has a significant DPM advantage because they run the 10% rammer - some heavies will eventually decide they need more DPM to compete

twilit crystal
#

@drowsy plaza well i think for mediums the 10% heat option was actually really good balancing by WG, they could keep their old 330 heat pen but it was a 25-30% dpm penalty, however heavies should only get a 5% buff from usingCS

scarlet fjord
#

yeah the problem is the meta is getting into postion with E5 IS-4 and kranvagn spam
waiting and trading
and when you see an opening pushing after
it's not that simple they will still spam calibrated for the penetration because pros also use it to boost their standard shells and make sure every shot penetrates and doesnt bounce
imo equipment should affect each class a different percentage
like more armor % for heavies
more DPM on gun rammer for meds
more camo for TD's just a few examples idk how viable this idea would be though
but if they just nerf the broken penetration it will be a great meta imo
318 APCR IS-7 374 HEAT for a lot of heavies is unfair imo
they should have 320 base if you dont touch calibrated and it will still get kinda high though i dont remember the % buff to calculate the value rn but it wont be completely broken pen at least

deft owl
#

@autumn zodiac Heavies are braindead tanks. They require least amount of skill to play.

karmic portal
#

I was thinking for dpm buff for every tank class, even for heavys though not as much. I feel like reducing heat pen will make the game even slower as tanks are already heavily armored

scarlet delta
#

Spike isn’t broken enough please fix 🤪🤪🤪

scarlet fjord
# deft owl <@200701846355050497> Heavies are braindead tanks. They require least amount of ...

i disagree with that i believe knowing exactly what your armor profile can take and to use your heavy tank's armor (to its full potential) isnt brain dead and imo it isn't the easiest class to play (pro level)
for begginers yes it is for a general level of the tank
but thats my opinion

@karmic portal i like it being a slower meta tbh whats fun about 7 people rushing 7 people in a DPM contest

unique scaffold
#

The 3.# update were a major kick in the teeth to meds and lights. Let's nerf the dpm of meds and lights while at the same time buffing the view range, gun handling, and armor of heavies. Oh yeah, let's also nerf the prammo alpha of all tanks... Of course it's going to affect the tanks that are more prammo reliant (lights and mediums)...

drowsy plaza
#

3.8-9 where a direct buff to heavies - now admittedly some still needed buffs, but after the 2.7-2.9 great Med nerfing, 3.8 was a significant kick in the junk to Meds and Lights

#

@scarlet fjord everything is a DPM contest of a sort - effective DPM. Most heavies have buckets of that - either due to the fact they have exceptional penetration, or mobility rivaling medium tanks. Let’s face it on certain maps heavies arrive at the same time as most Meds to key terrain. That’s a terrible aspect to the game. Heavies need several nerf’s. View range and mobility at the very least. Not all heavies need to be bludgeoned, but some do - and the answer to better balancing isn’t giving anything more HP.

scarlet fjord
#

yeah mobility nerf is the way to go imo
heaves imo def should have more hit points than other classes but wargaming just overcooked the hit point buff
i dont think they should get their view ranges nerfed because meds will harass them too much that way at distance
not just meds everything heavies have above average view range for a class
because they have no camo
mobility nerf yeah definitely agree with that
tanks that are balanced like IS-7 should keep the mobility imo though
but IS-4 giga nerfs
E5 remove broken consumables
etc

winged barn
#

Yes but:

yOu cAnT NeRf mY pReMiUm HeAvY tAnKs

Weegee refusing to nerf vehicles causes a trainwreck of problems

drowsy plaza
#

The EULA allows WG to alter any digital good.

#

Besides there are no tier premium/collector/enriched 9/10 tanks currently over performing.

#

So any nerf would be a minor class balancing nerf

full token
#

They don’t mind nerfing the heavies if they’re doing it to all. They’ve done it before with the medium pen nerfs. All the mediums got a nerf including the M60, though they did take an extra update to get the M60’s pen nerfed. They just don’t like to do nerfs to a single premium.

Makes sense. I thought they were really going to nerf all those mediums that update and leave the one high tier premium alone

drowsy plaza
#

They admitted the M60 HEAT pen missed nerf was by accident They sadly corrected it before I could spam it a bunch

twilit crystal
#

@drowsy plaza disagree a better way is to remove optics for heavies

nimble zodiac
#

Too bad they left Otsu out too long

muted rampart
#

@nimble zodiac yeah. It remained unchanged since realese not counting HP buff. It was only low tier tank that wasn t affected by 5.5 (🤮) update

drowsy plaza
#

@twilit crystal I think you need to do a mix of both.

twilit crystal
#

@drowsy plaza they could nerf the engine power boost equipment for heavies too?

drowsy plaza
#

Yeah that could help.

#

I think the best course of action is stripping away all the super consumables.

versed tide
#

Strip away sup consumables buff the e5 mobility a little bit for it tho

coarse harness
#

It was fine before the consumables
T29 and E5 didn't need them at all

unique scaffold
#

This is why wg doesn’t listen to the players 8/10 themes ^^

manic flower
#

Since the Blaze is weak, and open turreted, any chance the dev;s could buff the spotting view distance ?

rigid moon
#

I feel like the bat chat needs an accuracy buff. Not an on move dispersion type thing but just a regular dispersion thing. I decided to run the bat chat with refined gun, and a few battles in, I literally miss my whole clip on a 215b who is 220 meters away. I feel like in almost any other tank those shots would have hit. And no, they didn’t bounce, the literally just completely missed. Tbh I absolutely love the bat chat and I understand it doesn’t need the most accurate gun in the game (I also understand it’s also just rng giving me a headache lol) but I really think that it needs some more accuracy

scarlet fjord
#

it would be so much fun if the BC was like in WoT PC
an insane auto loader XD
but not gonna happen obviously

obsidian osprey
#

Petition to nerf coated optics for heavies and buff rammer/vents for meds and lights. Also bring back binocs as a prem consumable on certain light tanks (for the record I’m against prem consumables, but whatever at this point).

scarlet fjord
#

Heavies arent insane because of view range
why do you want to nerf the wrong stat
they have no camo they need view range
your supposed to nerf premium pen and hit points slightly not entirely imo
and or (depending on the tank) nerf the mobility
remove insane consumables from all heavy tanks

versed tide
unique scaffold
#

Nerf the view range. Classes should be interdependent. No class should be able to go it alone like some heavies can. A heavy shouldn't have to be spotting, that is what lights and meds are for.

twilit crystal
#

Exactly heavies should probably be the main battle tank in blitz but they shouldn't be able to do all

minor minnow
#

Some heavies, imho, should be able to do a fair bit. The 50B for example. It should be able to and can flank, cleanup and work ridges (not very effectively due to poor armor but it has 10 degrees of depression). It can’t, however hold a line effectively or hulldown.

scarlet fjord
#

view range nerf wont fix the meta problem...
they are just gonna use a vickers to spot and still spam E5 and IS-4 in tourneys
they are still downright stronger than you
its such a bad situational advantage they have no camo so you want to make them blind as well
instead of nerfing what is actually the reason why they are insane which is hit points and gold pen
they arent spotters
they get out spotted by every class because their camo is bad as is
your making their already disadvantage greater instead of balancing what is ridiculous about them

obsidian osprey
#

I think a good number of people are in favor of reversing, in full or in part, the recent heavy HP buff or alternatively giving meds better DPM. My point above was simply that they could and should make a few minor tweaks now that might smooth a few things over without fundamentally breaking anything, not that that’s the only thing I’d change about the current balance situation (not by a long shot).

Right now, outside of specific scenarios, view range and camo are minor aspects of this game. They used to be significant with camo net and binocs and most people using their 3 equip slots for rammer, vents and vstab.

winged barn
#

Don't mind me with my camo crew skills having higher camo ratings on heavies than some do on mediums

scarlet fjord
#

random IS-7 driving around at 50 km/h better camo than M60 but is 95% red

jagged crescent
#

Med pen buff when

jolly epoch
#

T-34-3 needs a buff. It’s dpm is horrendous and is outclassed by the Chimera

drowsy plaza
#

It’s DPM is within spitting distance of the Chimera, it has a high pen Prammo round unlike the Chimera and a better turret.

#

It just needs to use terrain to make up for gun depression.

nimble zodiac
#

Haha funny aim in 9/10 of a second

drowsy plaza
#

You should have played it at initial release

#

DPM was truly awful

versed tide
austere citrus
#

Is-7 should get speed buff.

jagged crescent
#

34-2 is fine.

versed tide
austere citrus
#

34-3 kinda overrated, that tank is legit so bad i sold it, chimera is actually worse than emil 1 imo.

frail silo
#

34-3 isn't bad
It takes a while to love that tank
At least for me, i had no idea how to play it before.

winged barn
#

I just find the t34 3 really fun to play. When I getting the salty grinding, it always relieves my stress with its accurate derping

drowsy plaza
#

The Chimera is a terrible tank to base anything off. It’s overcooked - I don’t run tanks solo over 80%, except the Chimera

minor minnow
#

I’ve always had a strange fondness of the 34-3, just something about the tank. It’s not especially fast and the armor isn’t especially good... yet the gun makes up for it by a mile... is this what true balance feels like?

frail silo
#

Probably, it has some magic to it.
Maybe it is how smexy the tank is.

nimble zodiac
#

Or the fact it aims in 0.9 seconds, but ignore that I guess

versed tide
#

bad dispersion tho

frail silo
hardy hazel
# scarlet fjord view range nerf wont fix the meta problem... they are just gonna use a vickers t...

Base view range for most tier 10 tech tree heavy tank is 250m leaving aside fv215b because it has 255m, a full equiped tier 10 heavy get its view range up to 282.5.
Base view range for tier 10 mediums is 260-265
View range for lights is tricky because Bat-Chat and both sheridans have 260m but Vickers have 280 base
And for tds is 250m base leaving aside 263 because it has 255m

Taking that in consideration, a heavy tank is pretty much as effective as any other tank in the game at spotting leaving aside Vickers light because i think it goes up to 320m view range when full equiped, so, heavys are not blind in any way, they just have poor camo, thats all.

dreamy oar
#

I’m a lil late to the t-34-3 talk I’ll toss my hat in the ring. I personally don’t like it. I feel it’s stock reload is too long, standard pen is too low and it’s turret armor is weak. I don’t care about hull armor bc I believe that all the tanks have no armor bc of pammo. It’s speed is amazing, it’s as fast as my grade dropping in physics. Aim time is amazing though I feel it’s accuratcy could better and it has HELLA bread (ammo)

Also on a little side note I think the nerfs to t9 and t10 British weren’t enough though the pen is in the right direction. The damage for the 105 for both tanks is too high for a light (srsly, 350 when it max role 403). I think it should be dropped to 310 and reload increased slightly. The gun mantel for the vickers cr should be nerfed more bc it such has smol turret likely srsly it’s almost impossible to hit from a distance

unique scaffold
#

Except it’s a 105mm like the majority of mediums it’s literally called L7 short wargaming still managed to nerf the wrong Vick and still ruin the nerf

turbid smelt
#

bc 105mm cries in corner

thick rover
#

crieees

twilit crystal
#

lmao 310 and increase reload 😂 jesus christ

scarlet fjord
#

@hardy hazel didnt call them blind i called the nerfed version of them blind they have high view ranges cuz bad camo it shouldn't be changed that isnt the problem

remote oriole
#

It is a problem that heavies are just good enough in every regard. Viewrange is a good place to start giving them more defined roles

neon yew
#

Время поднять мой английский язык😅

hardy hazel
#

i know, just wanted to point that out, but the view range need to be changed, you can have a heavy spotting for the team, brawling vs other tanks and in some dumb scenarios, camping in the back of the map. Maybe heavys doesnt have lots of camo rating but some heavys have good accuracy and anti noob-prammo, so they can do pretty much everything without the draw backs of other classes.

glad swan
#

Hello

unique scaffold
#

please buff Japanese Type 61. Shrink it cupola why does it have huge cupola, the tank has armor anyway, and the new running tds like t92 and sheridan make it impossible to tackle. 🥺 😢 😇

coarse harness
#

Type 61 is fine
I don't understand the rest

latent snow
#

Give the centurion 1 the turret of the cent 5/1 so its alteast somewhat relavant. the cent 1 is a teir 7 in the eyes of a 5/1

muted rampart
#

It s a tier 7 in eyes of everything except T28 and STA 1 xD

latent snow
#

we dont talk about the t28

broken root
#

sta is kinda nice imo. The gun, the depression, i would like to see it buffed but even now i like it. I used to farm wn8 on that

muted rampart
#

Yeah. Thats nice wn farm. But tonk itself is quite bad

broken root
#

I like the camo on it.

dense talon
#

@winged barn i had that with the 34 2, just decent and balanced tanks with an enjoyable trait, quick aim time and good alpha :)

unique scaffold
#

I found the 34-2 to be much more enjoyable than the 34-3.

dense talon
#

@unique scaffold how come?

unique scaffold
#

Slightly smaller size and a bit more mobile.

#

With a gun that still hits like a ton of bricks.

thick rover
#

Lool

minor minnow
#

Is the aim time similar? I’ve never touched the Chinese tech tree so I wouldn’t know

distant river
#

@minor minnow 0.09 seconds longer but with 0.03 better bloom, they are basically the same gun

I've never played the -3 but if it's anything like the -2 then I'd adore it, I think the -2 is still one of my highest WR tanks overall and it's so fun to play

exotic halo
#

why can the FV183 still put 1 300 damage shoots? it's been in the game for like 5 years or even more!

kindred oriole
#

Buff the IS-3 hull armour a little bit,it has one of the worst or the worst armour at tier 8....

Even when angled,almost every other tier 8 can still pen u

full token
#

good turret
Why are you even angling a pike nose... Youre flattening the armor...

sudden path
#

Your suggestion to buff the best non 252u is clone is laughable. The is3 has great armor already, with that turret, and the hull gets stupid bounces anyways, it's just not impenable. If the is3 has a better hull...it would be broken

muted rampart
#

@exotic halo because it s main feature about the tank and whole point of it since release. Just avoid it. It s not that hard

full token
#

Impossible to avoid all shots

muted rampart
#

@full token for me it s somehow possible. You want to know where was last time i got heshed? I'd like to tell you, but i don t even remember. Probably around june/july xD. (I m playing a lot at t10)

unique scaffold
#

I mean I will happily take the 900 dmg to do 500 dmg and get the kill

full token
#

@muted rampart Then you haven’t missed every shot in your time playing the game. Which means it’s impossible to miss every shot for you. So then if the alpha is broken and it’s also not possible to avoid every shot, that just supports the tank not being good for the game. It’s an RNG tank not one of skill, and it just runs around in tier 10 spoiling the gameplay

muted rampart
#

@full token yeah it s impossible. But it s nothing really bad when you take a penetrating shot from it once per half of the year playing a lot at t10. This is problem only for noobs

dense talon
#

The t34 3 has more armor though doesnt it?

Oh wow its only ever so slightly better armoured... It looked more like the type 59's frontal armor so id guessed it was a 100 mm front and 75 on the side as well but nop... I see why people dont really like this tank as much.

turbid crow
#

183 almost has no camo at all. You could be spotted in 300m wtf. 183 was nerfed too hard

winged barn
#

34 3 brings in a nice profit. That's is why I play it over a 34 2

Slightly quicker than basically instant is still basically instant

Np bro

reef crane
#

Doesn't the 34-3 have a slightly quicker aim time than the 34-2 with the 122 gun

Thank you

dense talon
scarlet fjord
#

what if we gave 183 90 degrees on the turret?
it will only be viable to good players frontlining with it

turbid smelt
#

i think it already has that
90° gun arc
...
how is that going to be op

what even is meaning of op at this point?

@terse tinsel
it is massive and has no armor

winged barn
#

._. That would be op if you mean like the e4 turret (90 to each side)

The extra pen is literally the only thing the pantera has better than the prog46
And the pantera, despite being the best tech tree t8 med, still is kinda meh as far as tier 8s go.

distant river
turbid smelt
#

xd

wintry prairie
#

Why isn’t death star getting buff? It’s got the worst WR

full token
#

It would become op if they buff it while it has the same alpha

muted rampart
#

@full token it depends on what buff it would be. if the buff would be done good, it would still remain broken but it wouldn t be op

scarlet fjord
#

@turbid smelt if you mean the 183 it has 45 degrees

scarlet fjord
drowsy plaza
#

I think most of us and most importantly WG is on the same page that the 183 is absolutely fine where it sits now.

#

I am 100% against any buff to it without first addressing the alpha and pen. Lower the HESH pen and Alpha and we can talk. But it can delete 1/2 the HP or more of any tier X tank in one HESH hit

scarlet fjord
#

This is fine is it?
not only not fine but even sad to be honest
E3 can have those buffs but 183 cant even get a marginal mobility buff? hmmm balance indeed
only bad players eat HESH in pubs and only super unicums can surprise decent players and HESH them the alpha is fine for every single stat that it has except pen is worst in class

📎 7.4_-_t10.png
minor minnow
#

Any buff with the alpha and pen it has would push it too far, no matter how slight.

distant river
#

Yes that's fine

We have had this discussion in this channel hundreds of times

Every single time we get to the same result:

The 183 cannot he balanced, it's in the best place it can be rn

sinful leaf
#

HESH really hurts to get hit by it, doesn't mean that it's necessarily fun lmao. Also, not exactly a good comparison, if you're comparing a weak tank to a overpowered tank to prove your point your argument will be flawed.
183 already is a meme tank, it's not really decent in most situations as is.
Problem being they screwed up any chance of doing that by making Badger a store-only collector tank, what do you propose will replace 183?

sudden path
#

183 should be removed, but it's too popular, so might as well make it a meme tank rather than a decent tank

muted rampart
#

i also agree it should be turned into collectible

twilit crystal
#

T342 is better. More camo and a better turret . T343 just has hull armor and heat pen

minor minnow
#

It should but something similar to how the Sheridan was turned, but maybe with a tank like the badger or something different implemented because of how many people have the badger to start.

latent snow
#

The T324 can be frontally HE penned

dense yoke
#

T34-2 sounds weird.
T34-2 much better.

remote oriole
#

Should I tell him?

turbid smelt
#

nope, let him figure it out

sudden granite
#

Lmao

muted rampart
#

lol

oak dust
#

Nerf the annihilator

minor minnow
#

Pitching an idea a bunch of friends had about a possible implementation of the WT Auf. E100. Yeah yeah “iT wOnT bE AdDeD” but this is that one hypothetical time when WG goes wayyyy off their rocker. Who knows, they removed ATGM’s, maybe this isn’t soo far off?

All credit goes to _Avanti[2EASY]

📎 image0.png
remote oriole
#

What are the shells per magazine? Also, please differentiate between hull and turret armour. And take another look at the camouflage, because if that is the base camo without paint and crewskill then it’s better than lights

turbid crow
#

buff 183 camo

jagged crescent
#

That camo rating is ridiculous

unique scaffold
#

Those suggested stats are awful 1600 HP won’t go wrong at all

dense yoke
minor minnow
#

@remote oriole I’d assume 3, this is blitz so

@N.Z.#1459 Still just a pitch feel free to give your own ideas about it

@unique scaffold What would you rather do?

@dense yoke again, 3 shells. Since it’s a 150 (I believe) it’d at least be 560, and with the interclip it’d be similar to a defender tank.

turbid crow
oak dust
#

the Annihilator is so over powered. It just like the kv2 but with less reload time and more hp

dense yoke
unique scaffold
#

@minor minnow nothing because it’s just not worth any hassle attempting to balance a waff e100 for blitz

mental pasture
#

460x4 = one tier X HP

Please, no Wte E100@dense yoke

Even with 560x3 the damage looks too monstrous

but tbh, a 560x3 clip with quite bad precision, very long clip reload and about 5 secs intraclip don't look as scary as a 183 aiming a HESH to your med
That's just my opinion

dense yoke
minor minnow
#

The thing that’s bugging me so much about it is it has the firepower potential for killing any medium in one go. That’s why I’m debating the 560* 3, albeit with poor poor gun handling. The 640 would be too much, the 460 wouldn’t fit the gun, and the 460* 4 will murder anything it looks at

@twilit crystal that’s what I’m trying to avoid with this idea, it had so much power and could send so much down range that it would be beyond broken here, yet with a lot pf tanks being watered down in Blitz compared to PC we might as well try and drown it in a pool

unique scaffold
#

Exactly no point in balancing it

twilit crystal
#

the problem with the wt e100 isit literally had 2800 or 3300 potential. Thats a whole maus. Mediums can easily avoid it

orchid grove
#

460x4 and 2.5s interclip
Let's go

minor minnow
#

Oh god no no NO NO

sinful leaf
#

Haha 215b clipping go brr- oh wait reactive armor exists why do all these special consumables have to exist dammit

crystal halo
#

Buff the Centurions armour

remote oriole
#

Why not go a whole new route with the WT auf E100.

For example it could get an autoreloader, but with significantly less damage for the second and third shell, promoting to use the single shot when completely full only.

Or they could give it a two shot autoloader with 460 alpha and like 2-3 seconds intraclip.

Another option would be to just give the tank a 17 cm and forget about all the autoloading stuff.

My last idea is to give it a 88 or 105mm gun that plays a bit like the AT7 autoloader

sinful leaf
#

First, specify which Centurion. Two, but even if you're proposing an armor buff for Cent 7/1 its hull upper plate and turret are already good enough. Cent 1 also has a good enough turret, only needs a mobility or DPM buff. @crystal halo
183 camo made it really OP, if they're going to buff anything only a minor buff to terrain resistances. Or buff nothing at all and leave as is, perhaps even removing it from the tech tree should a suitable replacement be found.

jagged crescent
lunar niche
#

Old 183 had ridiculous camo for its size. One of the main reason to make it broken.

crystal halo
#

I’m talking about both centurions, and the centurion 7/1 has NO armour for a 40km tank, the mantlet can even be penned with little difficulty, and what upper hull armour? You can only bounce with extreme angles that expose your side anyways. The cent 1 also has no armour relative to its speed, or lack thereof. Even if you use your max gun depression your turret can be penned easily

minor minnow
twilit crystal
#

i dont remember it having extremely stupid camo, but it was decent.

fallow raptor
#

The centurion 5/1 is more armored than 7/1,it was ridiculous, pls buff the 2 line centurions and replace fv4202 with the centurion action x

remote oriole
#

I disagree with giving it such a high clip potential while not compensating with a long intraclip

Then shorten the reload. That's really not an issue

My rational is that clip potential can only be softened by the intra clip, and with such a high potential the clip potential must be stretched out far in order to prevent it from one-clipping tanks too quickly and thus taking a disproportional influence in certain situations why being absolutely useless in others (due to the long relad). this clip potential stands to create another tank like the 183 used to be, especially if you give it good accuracy and acceptable camouflage. It will be able to stall entire pushes, and that cannot be healthy for the (as I've been told) already too static game

9 seconds is still less reload than the Ho-Ri you rated at 10 seconds. This is not WoT PC where it doesn't mater if one of your tanks just dies

dense yoke
#

dpm on wte100 would be trash , acceptable

muted rampart
#

@remote oriole it won t be like in 183 case. 183 is that scary because it can put its dmg in 1 shot. You can t expect that somebody will stay in front of you for 9 secs waiting for getting farmed. I mean this clip potential is okay because you are harmless for most of battle. Most of people won t be even able to pull out 2 clips per game beacuse of this reload and no armor. This tank will have potential for high dmg game but it won t be broken due to every Player focusing it (hehe no armor so i can shoot he heheheh) it will have 1.8k hp so along with grill The worst at t10 except 263 if i remember correctly. Also if somebody will rush you when you are on reload even if you are Full hp you are basically dead

It will be completly team dependent.

hardy hazel
dreamy oar
#

Give the WT E100 an autoreloader

long cargo
#

@Viktor Reznov#9231 the annihilator is stupid op, it almost makes me want to quit the game for a while. It’s even more op than the smasher

remote oriole
#

Clip potentials are more often than not delivered, as we can already observe with the current clippers (which prove to be quite popular). The danger these tank pose is not in winrate, but in raw damage output. In many ways they already play like ambushers, and the higher the clip potential and the longer the reload the more the ambusher gameplay will be promoted.

They may not be campers proficient campers, but the fact that they will (ineffectively) camp and wait until they can ambush someone because they can't expose without being instantly killed is pushing a passive and useless stance that is non-beneficial for the team or for winning, but just for dealing damage. That's why I think that the shots should be spread over a longer period and why the inactive (reloading) phase should be shortened to ensure that these tanks can actually actively participate in battle aside from trying to ambush someone

scarlet fjord
#

dude
thats literally illogical
you cant make the worst performing tank in the game by a mile
op or broken
i am willing to bet 1000$ that it wont even get in the middle of the pack on TD's
by buffing its mobility marginally
that is literally nonesense
its lack of everything except alpha and pen will never make it op even if it can take half your hit points in a second as a heavy
like if a tank that has the worst stats in the game on everything manages to HESH you
you deserve to die if you have such bad awareness
its a huge tank and medium tanks have more armor than it does
my IS-7 has better camo than it does and way more view range
its resistances are worse than the jageroo
with what stats is that 183 gonna be op

drowsy plaza
#

5.4 chart

#

Remember the damage

#

And 5.6

mental pasture
#

Fv183 can't shot more than twice according to charts, lmao

drowsy plaza
#

The charts simply prove that what most of us have been saying for a long time. The alpha and pen will never be balanced

scarlet fjord
#

what are the stats of the 183 in those patches
was this pre (bombardment) on its stats?
where it had insane camo and actually accurate?@drowsy plaza
please elaborate

#

the 183 was nerfed in 5.7:
For the FV 215b (183), the suspension traverse speed and vehicle's concealment were decreased, while gun dispersion was increased.

so your arguing about it being op after a (marginal mobility buff)
compared to when it had amazing stats
might i add that even on its golden days
the E3 has in the 5.4 patch the same DPB
while 183 was last in win rate i dont see how buffing its worst in class mobility marginally will make the tank broken when it was on par with E3 in its golden age (only in damage)
this is illogical to me i cant comprehend your point

drowsy plaza
#

Camo was nerfed in 6.8 and dispersion was nerfed in 5.7

minor minnow
#

It’s simply because of the raw damage that it can put out, that’s why it’s op. The possibility to delete more than half a Maus’s HP pool can’t be balanced, so you nerf the things around it

drowsy plaza
#

@scarlet fjord I’m not arguing it would be OP, I’m arguing it’s fine sitting where it is. It’s a Meme tank that doesn’t fit

unique scaffold
#

Forgive me for looking through messages but he never even said 183 was brokenor op he just stated you can’t balance the alpha and pen which for some reason you perceived as an attack on the 183

📎 image0.png 📎 image1.png
drowsy plaza
#

@unique scaffold that was about the Smasher

#

The guy with 20k or so games in it that barely broke 1k dmg

rare lake
#

I have a question for you all: Should the t32 get a buff to it's penetration value? Because imo it is unacceptable the amount of pen it has is that low, like c'mon. Like at least buff the pen values a bit more and just leave everything else alone, even though it's pretty slow and has a bad turn rate

drowsy plaza
#

It’s got mad speed boost and a crazy turret

#

But @rare lake it’s hampered by having the same top gun as the T29 - it probably deserves a different 105mm but the one on the M46 would be pretty OP on the T32

scarlet fjord
#

@unique scaffold saying that it wouldn't be balanced insinuates op/broken to me idk how you would understand that otherwise at least thats how i understood it

@drowsy plaza but a lot of people are fans of it so i personally would like to see it be at least viable
not asking for it to get decent stats just be literally a viable tank lol
and I'm not saying this because i struggle with the 183 i really dont but i would love to play the tank without dropping my stats a little since sometimes i just down right spam 183 for fun and dont play the game for other reasons if i feel bored of the game
34 top speed is huge meh for an armorless huge tank with less camo than heavies
maybe allow it to accelerate a tiny bit faster?

drowsy plaza
#

@scarlet fjord I think the 183 needs to be entirely rethought. I’d rather see it as a balanced tank than a meme, but with the map size and HP pool we have in game, the 183 pen and alpha on the HESH doesn’t fit well at all.

rare lake
#

@drowsy plaza just a speed boost that you could use only every 60-90 secs and the other heavies have good turrets, it just frustrates me the fact that the t29 was a great tank, but then you got this t32 that is almost nothing like the t29 and feels stagnant. It feels like it doesn't have anything that special and could be outdone by most heavies of it's tier

dense yoke
#

Stop it.
T32 is one of the best hulldown tanks, if not the best one at tier 8.
Very annoying to deal with a hulldown T32.
I find it to have better hulldown than T26E5/T54E2.
On top of that it has super consumables.
Pretty sure T26E5 doesn't have any Super consumables, not sure about T54E2.

mental pasture
#

Tbh, that 183mm gun will NEVER fit for WOTB and it can't be balanced

  • If you don't touch it, the tank will still remove 2/3 of a medium tank HP in one hut
  • If you nerf other things that aren't pen or alpha, then it'll be an even worse tank, but will still removing 2/3 hp of mediums
  • If you nerf the damage/pen, then it might be not broken anymore, but the whole tank becomes pointless since its gameplay is about pure alpha, nothing else

The tank needs to become a collector and get replaced, that's my opinion, the onlt way to make it balanced is a replacement for a tank that actually fits that line

drowsy plaza
#

@scarlet fjord If I was rebalancing the 183, I’d give it some turret armor - drop the ammo (rammer data( AP to 285mm for 850 alpha, drop HESH to 200mm and 1200 alpha, and HE to 90mm, 1200 alpha and let it play closer to the front.

orchid grove
#

Honestly, for the sake of variety, I don't really agree with nerfing the alpha on the 183. The only problem I find with 183 is the spam, which I would fix by slamming the credit coefficient

scarlet fjord
#

@drowsy plaza but then it would have same alpha as jageroo on HE with a bigger caliber

@rare lake Imo the T32 is well balanced
it has a bad gun yes it has bad penetration but remember that you have an insane turret which only miracle shots can penetrate 9 times out of 10
and gun depression means you artificially increase your penetration by reducing the angles since you are above your target in many cases just run calibrated shells and relax you have op speed boost on top of it

drowsy plaza
#

@scarlet fjord but with a turret. I just can’t see the whole 242mm 1400 HESH working well for balance

#

You get a lot of folks who sit redline and simply live to nail otherwise occupied tanks - they do their ~1400dmg and die and think they contributed

remote oriole
#

The 183 should be underperforming because of its high situational effectiveness, that's why any buff is too much

versed pulsar
#

Why does it seem woth every update wot lets in more afk player more player that shoot houses ect ect the honor system doesn't work reporting doesn't work worthless devs imo

scarlet fjord
#

yes i agree that is the case and its 1300 alpha btw
but wont buffing mobility (marginal buff) make ppl think that you shouldn't camp in 183?
I'm a super unicum and my belief is
if you dont frontline with 183 you will never get 3k WN8 on it unless ur RNG is insane that day ( i only camp when frontline is impossible and then after half the enemies die down i push)
you know how HARD and i mean really hard it is to take a tank with no camo no mobility no armor no view range no accuracy nothing and i mean nothing
front line and find someone exposed and try to HESH him for 1300
while staying near team mates because after you HESH your vulnerable for 20 seconds 16 with adrenaline
small acceleration buff will tell at least decent players to go frontline
and yes i know its situationally broken even right now
if you ignore a 183 he kills half your team in a minute i know
but in other cases you need advanced skill level to do average in it

mental pasture
#

Buffs = it's already broken enough, buffs will be problems
Damage nerf = will make the tank pointless
General nerfs = will make the tank even worse, but will still broken
Let it be = meds will still have 1/2 - 2/3 of their HP removed per shot and the tank will still bad

183 playstyle is based on pure alpha, if you remove that alpha, it's pointless @versed tide

versed tide
#

Why don’t we remove hesh

dense yoke
#

Yes remove hesh and give it 230 pen HE.
Brilliant.

scarlet fjord
#

your only broken in 183 when an entire team ignores you and you get free farm with HESH
that is so ridiculously unlikely that it isnt even a problem XD
you can only do average in it though IF you are extremely skilled in it
(not skilled in general) skilled in playing a bad tank with a broken gun
in my opinion even after a small acceleration buff it will still be the worst tank in tier 10 so i dont see the problem of buffing that

Removing HESH makes the tank pointless
@versed tide
we want the fun factor of 1300 HESH as well

mental pasture
#

Well, those 1300 damage are extremely funny, only for the 183

I don't think this fun factor does still funny when you take it on your medium

versed tide
#

Ok let me rephrase that we remove the high pen hesh for some kind of reg pramo so 183 can’t dump 1300 into anything’s front. What I’m saying is keep the lower pen hesh and remove the pramo hesh. Then buff it any way you’d feel good. Maybe you can buff the non high pen hesh by 10mm as compensation

bitter perch
#

people: the 183 alpha dmg is OP. me: warily glances at the kv-2.

nimble zodiac
#

And people still think being able to do 960 in tier 6 isn’t broken

scarlet fjord
#

@versed tide touching the alpha or removing the HESH in any way shape or form removes the tank's fun factor
and makes it pointless
i would rather leave it as it is right now and have a lot of fun playing it
than get its alpha or HESH changed in any way

unique scaffold
#

hesh got nerfed on console so they suck now so i feel u @scarlet fjord

remote oriole
#

So if you already have fun, why would you change anything about it? Isn’t it fulfilling its purpose then?

Well, I don’t see a reason to do it. If we were to buff all small things that can cause some drawbacks then we would get into powercreep deluxe. And after a while you make a weak tank a strong tank if you don’t buff the rest accordingly. The 183 is already mobile enough to get into a position from where you can ambush people, and it’s doing what’s it supposed to do with the efficiency it’s supposed to have. It’s basically where it should be. And more than enough people still enjoy it, so there is no reason to buff it

scarlet fjord
#

I'm not asking for change on its gun
i was asking for a marginal acceleration buff yes (marginal) so i can have more fun frontlining it
or rather not have bad experiences in certain scenarios with it
i read the situation often and learn to get out of there before i get caught if i was actually slower than a jagero that is kinda iffy
at least its resistances are worse
it will still be a bad tank but slightly better i dont see the problem

#

@remote oriole i got ranked 36th in europe on 183
and i spam 183
i love 183
yet i still believe its mobility needs a small nudge since it kinda isnt fair that the jagero accelerates faster in most terrains since it has armor
its acceleration isnt good enough
but thats my opinion

full token
#

Jageru doesn’t have a turret and 240mm on a HESH shell

coral nova
#

Bruh the mobility doesn’t need a buff when u drive 5 meter backward and don’t move the rest of the game lmao 😂 @scarlet fjord

scarlet fjord
#

@coral nova this is why people suck in the 183 cuz they camp
your supposed to fronline in it with its stats u wont hit anything camping unless at medium range fully aimed in

@full token jagero has 400 HEAT instead of the HESH
and has great armor not to mention 0.285 dispersion lol

jagged crescent
#

<@&481447501690568709> i never got the point of ddosing

gleaming apexBOT
#

dynoSuccess emily#1061 was banned

scarlet fjord
#

ooof

jagged crescent
#

.29 dispersion on a turreted td that doesn’t 1.1k alpha sounds stupid

scarlet fjord
#

that is a fun idea for a game mode imo
not gonna lie i wanna see that in a game mode
but not in pubs though it wont be a viable tank if you did that

lunar niche
#

So, a Type 5 with mobility but without the armour and huge size.
Doesn't really seem exciting to just HE splash everything.

scarlet fjord
#

nah personally i will still demolish the teams with 242 HESH and 0.29 Dispersion and 45km/h lmao
but because its unreliable not good idea for pubs

nimble zodiac
#

So you explain
183 already can HESH terribly positioned enemies, and splash well-positioned enemies
Change it to where it's actually worse for combating enemies, and only more dynamic
Great.

turbid crow
#

Is this a call to nerf 183 once again 👀

deft prawn
#

t!ping

verbal thistle
covert jungle
#

nerf LT vickers

unique scaffold
#

buff the VK 45.02 A pls

scarlet fjord
# verbal thistle Of you lose 1300 in your medium Then it means you let him took the shot If ene...

I've been saying this for ages but nobody listens
they keep crying that the gun is broken
if you eat 1300 HESH from that statsless tank you deserve to die
but nobody wants to see a (marginal) mobility buff on the worst performing tank in the game
when it was at its strongest in the old days
it was on par with E3 in DPB only but still worst win rate tank destroyer
still complaining...
illogical

@regal grove your argument is baseless
if you dont have an argument you have no place to cry here

regal grove
#

still arguing for a pointless buff that no one wants nor no one needs
illogical

do i care? lmfao

jagged crescent
#

abc ain't based?

illogical

verbal thistle
#

in my opinion, just a camo buff would be nice

regal grove
#

@jagged crescent all i see is a lil goofy who talkin big everytime i peep this server jajaja

scarlet fjord
#

baseless childish ranting 😂

jagged crescent
#

woah man, you don't gotta resort to personal jabs! 😳
remember the last time(s) you got yourself muted over that?

ohmai he remembers!

orchid grove
#

183 is fine where it is. All it needs is for the credit coefficient to be negative or something

scarlet fjord
#

The guy is trolling
and your saying I'm making jabs?
are you mad?
"all i see is a lil goofy"
really?
and calling that childish is jabbing?
ok i see this chat is pointless
bye lol

jagged crescent
#

he finally realized how pointless this chat is
lets celebrate

unique scaffold
#

other person says something with a point

bye lol this chat is pointless

regal grove
#

oh noo our professor is gone
perhaps this chat wouldn't be stratosphere-sized walls of text now 😔

hot valve
#

Meh all i see is 1 guy trying to buff a cancer tank and 3 kids acting like clowns
no offence lol
you did just insult for no reason though

unique scaffold
#

Imagine insulting people for no reason and then asking why they insulted another person for no reason

smells like hypocrite in here

jagged crescent
#

ey yo wheres the monke

unique scaffold
#

100%sure he’s related to harbinger or is an alt because he literally only has 3 messages in his history and all of them are in discussions related to harbinger

hot valve
#

ah one of the clowns spoke how amusing :D
@unique scaffold i insulted for a reason btw but clowns dont get paid enough to think 😉

@unique scaffold this account is 6 years old my friend give or take

regal grove
#

Dang professor I know you got a doctorate in big data and tank statistics but spare the insults please omg

scarlet fjord
#

u still crying lmao

unique scaffold
#

I like how not only is it super obvious you both talk awfully similar it has a leopard pfp just like you did and even had the same pfp you have now

📎 image0.png
regal grove
#

people take this clown's word more seriously than our local Phd... we truly live in a society 😔

hot valve
#

@unique scaffold he doesn't have a leopard pfp lol are you just trying to clown around with your new target? you know i cant be arsed with your clownery 🤣
if you wanna argue with the stats lord dont involve me

scarlet fjord
#

@hot valve mate they're just retarded idc if u mute me for that mods

unique scaffold
#

I would give these two a pay raise to use more than 3% of their brain except:

a) I'm broke

b) We need people like them to make the rest of us look like genii

gleaming apexBOT
#

dynoSuccess Harbinger#0072 has been warned.

#

dynoSuccess Darius#4834 has been warned.

jagged crescent
#

positive elixer trade!

winged barn
#

Looks like I missed something good

turbid smelt
#

me too

remote oriole
# scarlet fjord <@!262193591437230080> i got ranked 36th in europe on 183 and i spam 183 i love...

If those stats say anything then that you clearly don’t need the buff.
And the general stats are exactly where I want to see them because of how broken the tank is. I mean, yes you could probably buff it marginally and increase the stats a bit without doing much harm, but why really? It doesn’t change that it’s bad and that it’s a fun tank. And pushing it slowly to be a more competitive tank is exactly going the wrong way because this tank is too situational to be both competitive and balanced (because of the alpha and fear factor).

I mean, people are even more afraid of that thing than autoloaders despite the comparable dpm and damage potential (and the very similar ambush-playstyle), making it even stronger on the battlefield because you can literally play with people’s fears. This tank is psychological warfare 2.0 of Blitz.
But even leaving that aside the stats indicate a high situational dependency (and also a team dependency of some degree), and even now the tank can be really strong if it’s played in situations that promote its strengths. Allowing it to be competitive, i.e. allowing it to be in preferable situations more often than not will highlight these strengths, that are still with the tank and that are apparently here to stay, and will make it

  1. score very high damage in every battle,
  2. take a lot of influence on the available strategies because it can lock down routes,
  3. Make it a fun tank that’s also effective, creating spamming of the tank
    (And remember, a tank is not bad for the game because it’s op, but because it’s op and appears frequently in the game)

Tl;dr: It’s a psychological weapon, and as we learned with ATGMs people will probably never make peace with that. It’s also very situational which limits the ways you can balance it because it will always be extremely good in certain situations no matter what. And on top of that it’s a very popular fun tank that would instantly destroy tier ten battles. Thus it should be bad

remote oriole
sullen jolt
#

Nice lecture Professor @remote oriole

round bluff
#

You guys are
You are so smart

thick rover
#

yep

drifting depot
#

I loose brain cells tryna read this chat for extended periods of time lul, and when is the is-8 getting some love? I know the sides are troll and all but what about that front lacking even in tier 8 games 😐

distant river
#

Hulldown med with a brilliant gun shouldn't have a bouncy hull...

dense yoke
sullen jolt
#

Yeah we are very lucky for that!

scarlet fjord
karmic portal
#

This place is basically like 5 people who will write essays to defend themselves when their views are challenged. They are by no means representative of the entire blitz population. And their opinions don’t matter

Occasionally I may be one of them, but not regularly

remote oriole
#

@karmic portal More or less, though I am usually the one who challenges view with essays. After all, fight fire with fire! 🤪

@scarlet fjord Then I’m lucky that I never said that. Only my very first sentence was in reference to your skill level, as the introduction of the following sentence clarifies: “And the general stats are [...]”

Lux, just about now: “Only my first sentence was in reference to your skill level”
Also, read the sentence more carefully. I said that your stats mean that you don’t need the buff, I wasn’t talking about the tank

scarlet fjord
#

@remote oriole
LuxToday at 8:26 AM
If those stats say anything then that you clearly don’t need the buff.

scarlet fjord
#

yes but balance is for everyone not for those who can compensate for its lack of everything
but ok i see 183 isnt getting touched since ppl just cant play around it apparently

sinful leaf
#

183 probably won't be buffed, ever. Unless you know you want to destroy the only redeeming factor that makes it worth playing. After seeing how 183 is on Console, I'd much rather leave 183 as is.

distant river
#

@scarlet fjord People do play around it, that's the issue. The 183 camps, and nobody pushes so they don't get hit. That's what the 183 does to tier 10, and that's why it can never be buffed until it loses some of its alpha and HESH.

scarlet fjord
#

eeeh
i hate how ppl still camp in it even though its not for camping all game...
shooter has a point though
i would much rather leave it as is than change its alpha or HESH in any way

sinful leaf
#

It's easier to camp and wait for someone instead of frontlining

scarlet fjord
#

yeah and you will do like 1300 damage and then die
i dont see how its effective or fun but
i guess they just dont know how to do it frontline idk

muted rampart
#

i think amx 50 100 should get back 4 shells in clip

orchid grove
#

^^^^^

sinful leaf
#

I wouldn't mind but I think it's fine if it was left as is, aside from the fact Emil I still exists but it shouldn't be too much reason to add the four shells back, because I don't see the tank as underpowered. Though, if you have statistics that say otherwise I suppose I can see why you would want to add the fourth shell back.

muted rampart
#

also after ht hp buff those 930 especially when you are paper in 6 seconds isn t that much anymore

dense yoke
#

isu be sitting there

remote oriole
drifting depot
dense yoke
#

🤟

unique scaffold
#

When gravity mode

deep oasis
#

Will the tanks that were removed in 5.5 ever be changed to make them a bit more viable?

analog canyon
#

@lusty silo will the british heavys ever get their cannons buffed, my black prince cant pen crap and when it does its because of a lucky shot and doesnt even do much

autumn zodiac
#

Don't ping the Wargaming staff for that

full token
#

The tanks have accurate guns. Lack of pen doesn’t affect the Caernarvon and above as much. And the guns on the Conq and FV215b are really good guns.
Black prince has high dpm, so losing some pen is acceptable when you don’t have to wait that long to get another shot ready

autumn zodiac
#

Besides Black prince has fantastic APCR shells and high dpm

That combined with the Aforementioned accuracy TacNayn brings up

analog canyon
# autumn zodiac Besides Black prince has fantastic APCR shells and high dpm That combined with ...

yes the acuracy and reload is unparelled but... the tanks that the prince would usaly fight have armors greater than the 17 pounder can usaly pen, and apcr is quite expensive, but a buff to something about the cannon is needed, frontal attacks with it fail most the time and because of how slow it is (why couldnt the brits put a stronger engine, like seriously), but flank attacks fail too because of the prince side armor, and once i get behind the enemy (if i do) thier allies will have a very easy time penetrating my rear

autumn zodiac
#

The Brits didn't put a stronger engine because it was a stop gap heavy

#

Also with that kind of speed you are supposed to be a support heavy that takes the place of the initial wave of mobile heavies. Your role is to pick people off and suppress them

unique scaffold
#

(Also because a stronger engine both wasn’t available at the time and just wasn’t needed for such a design

jagged crescent
#

+50 hp on the 215b yes yes

analog canyon
# autumn zodiac The Brits didn't put a stronger engine because it was a stop gap heavy

i know, but obviously if ya make a tank heavier it you need to also improve the engines, but and tats not how things go in WOT or WOTB so the main role of the prince is already stripped away, so u get left with a tank that doesnt have speed, penetration, or armor, unless of course you sidescrape, but without proper support, and the proper support usually i don't receive, which would be meds and lights coming also, or additional heavs that can both take and deal punches. the prince was an infantry support tank AKA british heavys, and since it is part of the Churchill lineup it it is also for crossing trenches, yes there was a stronger engine, the brits just didnt want to use an American engine, the churchill mk7 was ~40ish tons, the prince is ~50ish, even that extra 50 HP wouldve made all the difference

full token
#

Black prince has armor. It’s not that easy to pen because the weakspots are few. If you keep it angled you’ll bounce some rounds. But that doesn’t matter because it has nice traverse, great dpm and also makes up for lower pen with good accuracy, so you can hit weakspots easier

dreamy oar
#

The black prince is a good brawler

unique scaffold
#

Also if you have speed problems in BP why aren’t you using the super boost

remote oriole
#

The Black Prince is one of the products of overbuffing tier seven tanks. It’s one of the most op tanks tier for tier and its pen and alpha are really the only things that hold this beast back

analog canyon
full token
#

Credits aren’t as much of an issue anymore. There’s free premium time, free premiums and lots of credits being given from mission crates, clan crates, clan rewards, events, weekly crates

orchid grove
#

For FV heavy, it just needs more HP, and I wouldn't mind some extra DPM

sudden path
#

Fv is fine, it's the other heavies that got buffed around it
Although with sandbags it has around the same hitpoints as the average tier 10 heavy(2438 with extra hitpoints)
Black prince was the first tank I was a true unicum in. And that was before the hitpoint and armor buffs

analog canyon
#

how many of you actualy have the prince, it took about 130 battles in my churchil mk-1 to get the creds to get the mk7,so yes creds are a problem, i am currently grounded so dont know how many battles i did in the mk7 but most my creds came from boosters and event crates

unique scaffold
orchid grove
#

@muted rampart FV heavy has never really been about the armor, and while the rear mounted turret is exceedingly uncomfortable given the terrible side armor, it's really a feature of how the tank is meant to be. Giving FV heavy side armor would fundamentally redefine its playstyle, which is not really what I think it needs

real bison
#

The BP can literally pen the IS-3 frontally with its top gun, not sure what you talkin about

analog canyon
#

u mean the matilda BP or prince

muted rampart
#

@analog canyon yeah, because matilda bp will definetly face is 3 in battle...

@real bison is 3 is paper so it s not best example (i don t want bp to be buffed. just saying)

@real bison it is lol. around 200 mm on upper plate of hull and even less at lower plate. it s paper at t8. only turret is quite strong

real bison
#

@muted rampart IS-3 is not paper

dreamy oar
#

Kind of. Remember that most t8 heavies have 215-225mm of pen on their standard ammo more than enough to pen ur front on the is 3 and tds will just go straight through it. Side scraping can work but don’t rely on it (I’ve found out the hard way) it’s more effective against meds and light but stay with ur meds and lights if ur with them, reload is long

full token
#

Don’t rely on the is3’s front. It has a great turret and good mobility for a heavy. Use those and don’t rely on the front that much. The sides are a bit usable too

analog canyon
#

hide the hull, expose turret, would do that sometimes with mk 1 churchill

silent drum
#

So how come tortoise didn’t get a buff of any kind? It either needs a huge superstructure buff or remove the copula, it is the lowest performing TD by a decent margin and yet it was ignored. It’s lower tier variant the at15 is now viable to run 6 of in a tournament it’s so strong.

drowsy plaza
#

Imagine someone complaining about the BP now, not before when it was utterly useless.

unique scaffold
#

I think he has it stock or something he keeps saying he doesn’t have BP but referring to the Tier 5 premium despite no one talking about that one

analog canyon
#

ok i usaly call the black prince the prince thats why, and most people i talk to refer to the matilda BP as the BP

winged barn
#

Weegee has already taught us that low tiers don't matter. Next topic.

orchid grove
#

Whenever anyone refers to Black Prince, or BP, just assume they mean the tier 7 heavy because no one ever talks about, or cares about the Matilda BP

lucid plover
#

I won't lie..I despise the mindset of 'low tiers don't matter'. It's just such an elitist and ignorant view of things. Purposely ignoring the really bad aspects of a game simply because the top don't have to deal with it is a very good way to end up alienating all the people who try to get into the game.

analog canyon
#

the BP is only tank i have right now, tried some other heavys and TD and decided to keep to the brit heavys untill i get to t10, i sold my others to get the BP, is that a bad idea?

olive hawk
#

@lucid plover yes i love ruining the game for new players by tooning in double PZ B2s

full token
#

Experienced or older players shouldn’t be in lower tiers, so it makes sense that they’d not care as much about the part of the game they don’t and shouldn’t be in

mental pasture
#

If you're experienced, there's only two reasons to play in low tiers; grind lines without waste free XP or do platoon with a newbie to help him grind, otherwise, it's just seal clubbing and stat padding

remote oriole
#

It's the platoon option for me. But I am the newbie

distant river
#

(low tiers are also excusable for birthdays I think)

remote oriole
#

I excuse my sealclubbing by simply not excusing it

whole flower
#

I love playing my mark v heavy and decking infants in order to maintain the integrity and prosperity in the tier of 10 in world of tanks blitz

austere citrus
#

imagine if we had actual anti tank destroyers like the nashorn was super slow and bad again st armor but dang that gun did so well

nimble zodiac
#

So super tank destroyers?
Heh, STDs

autumn zodiac
jagged crescent
#

"I love playing my mark v heavy and decking infants in order to maintain the integrity and prosperity in the tier of 10 in world of tanks blitz"
affirmative! ✅

real bison
#

Negative!

versed tide
minor minnow
winged barn
dense walrus
#

we were thiiiis close to going 12 hours without someone whining about MM.

mission failed, we'll get em next time

@distant river
society if people could read: utopia
society since people can't: #tank-balance-discussion

minor minnow
#

Shame

sudden granite
#

Rip
Failed attempt
Lets try again bois xd

distant river
#

@Georgia Bulldogs#3180 It's... Random?

You know, inherently balanced by the variations in it...? As in the best system for matchmaking? As in not something to complain about, especially not in a channel where it specifically says in the pins not to?

@tankeatingtiger#1750 One day well will make it, I believe in it

crystal spoke
#

@dense walrus dont push it we're surprised we went two hours

jagged crescent
#

omgfixmm wah wah wah wah wah

nimble zodiac
#

Don't like RNG? Play ratings

Also it would be funny if AMX and IS-7 traded alphas

mental pasture
#

"My win rate is going up. MM is random. Unfortunately the dice did not roll in your favor this match. The fact is that all of us play in the same environment. Over hundreds of games it is what you do as a individual that has the biggest influence on your win rate. It isn't the teams... It is you." @fair dome

  • Diablo, Spartacus
winged barn
#

This guy did his reasearch... on the wrong topic.

Lol

minor minnow
#

I’ll give him props for doing his homework

unique scaffold
#

Ironically blitz looks to be the most functional now ever since wot console rolled out their disastrous update recently

mental pasture
#

Ironically, I play on EU and don't care much about NA/LATAM, I only had problems at those servers. If you want a decent MM, then play EU or RU server, they have special MM features, but anyways, this is no chat for crying because MM wasn't soft for you. Disappointed? Quit, none is forcing you to still playing.

nimble zodiac
#

People are still buying their stuff, and a surge is about to happen. Idk

jagged crescent
#

ey yo smasher stupid

frail silo
#

Oof

gleaming apexBOT
#

dynoSuccess Georgia Bulldogs#3180 was banned

minor minnow
#

Well then

bold dagger
golden goblet
#

Nerf the Annihilator

broken root
#

it is impossible. Wargaming themselves do not allow themselves to nerf premium tanks.

drowsy plaza
#

Several premiums have been nerf’d in the past. WG just prefers not to do so if possible.

broken root
#

Didn't they change their policy?

full token
#

No

cloud ivy
#

only stupid players hope in joke like they didnt nerf premium tanks : lkpz when they add it has 127mm pen on HE shell but now after 8$ offer hes only 107....

hardy hazel
#

That's good to know

winged barn
#

Remember when they nerfed the IS3D? They justified it by claiming that it was an "event tank"

anni is also an event tank

turbid smelt
#

lel is3d got nuffed?
i have been living under me wee little rock whole this time

unique scaffold
#

Why in World of Tanks we can't use secondary guns??
To shot less armored targets like Maus with it's 7,5 cm gun

turbid smelt
#

because game is designed around using 1 main gun at once

toxic nymph
#

Because the engine doesn't support it.
There was talk about wanting to be able to use the M3 Lee's 37mm gun in the turret and the B1's hull mounted howitzer back in the day

mental pasture
twilit crystal
#

They never neefed is3d. They just gave it the proper hit skin

nocturne mauve
#

Nerf heavies

winged barn
#

90 sure they nerfed credit making

turbid smelt
#

ah
i thought something that would affect im performance

austere citrus
mental pasture
#

Ha ha, gambling at finnest! Meanwhile some people spend 305 Euros to get it, others get it on the first loot box!

The most funnt part is that all this gambling is in a 10+ yo game!

minor minnow
#

And the majority of people know the risk they’re taking so I don’t see a problem with it. If children are running rampant and gambling then that’s the parents issue.

turbid smelt
#

^

mental pasture
#

The problem is the whole gambling system for this age, you know; if you try to put a kid in a cassino, you both will get kicked, or at least just the kid
But for some reason, kids actually can be on "web cassinos", usually you meed to be 18+ to bet, but now you can do it by only borrowing your parent's credit card

If you want a game to be a cassino, then no problem, but at least make it 18+ as like every cassino is

turbid smelt
#

i am quite sure parents are in the wrong for letting minor borrow credit card or not even monitoring minor's actions on device at this day and age

even the bank makes you sign document that clearly state you are the responsible one for this card

round bluff
#

mmmm yes let us support the corporate gambling scheme wg is just doing this to pay their employees

remote oriole
#

The need for protection has been proven throughout all of human history and is deeply embedded in modern law (and has been for thousands of years). Claiming that "people know the risk" and that they or their superiors should be "responsible" is fighting a losing war against experience accumulated over more years than I have characters at my disposal when writing a Discord message

austere citrus
#

Decision: AMX m4 54 Firebird is OP. Although I did quite bad in it for the first 5 games, after that, I got more familiar with the tank and it's definitely OP.

muted rampart
#

@austere citrus thanks mr. obvious

versed marsh
#

it seems in a way underpowered cant pen is4 but easy when against another amx m4. fv215b also gets shots in 2x faster than you + grille easily shoots 700

muted rampart
#

you can jusr run calibrated and go trough eveyrything

muted rampart
#

you mean nerfed probably

austere citrus
#

its not op as u think, its better than every other tier 10 heavy tank, but aint broken(droodles agrees)

minor minnow
#

Droodles isn’t necessarily the most reliable source imho

sinful leaf
#

Oh boy, using Droodles as a source of information. Sometimes he gets things right but honestly asking around here for information on stuff, etc. is a much better idea.
"uwudles"? Seriously?

orchid grove
#

uwudles is pretty shady in his opinions

versed marsh
unique scaffold
#

You all do know roundbear is egirl2 right dont take them seriously

winged barn
#

It's better than every other tier 10 heavy tank, yes. And the heavy tanks are better than every other class.

remote oriole
#

And yet again Wargaming didn't fail to deliver the best package of imbalance for Christmas! Enjoy!

hardy hazel
dense yoke
minor minnow
#

In no way is it bad but there is no way in hell it outclasses tanks like the IS-4 and E5 (and now the M4)

jagged crescent
#

Droodles said that the 5a was his favorite tank. I dont think he said it was the best best

egirl nobody's going to take u seriously, whether or not u have the amx

austere citrus
#

@unique scaffold don't take them seriously? I doubt you even have the tank to make an argument.

@dense yoke Said it was one of his favorite tanks, not best tanks.

karmic portal
#

Is the m4 that op? It looks like a tier 10 exp except with a better turret and side armor but worse hull

minor minnow
unique scaffold
#

The pen is great with calibrated (I suggest to run it on most heavies)

austere citrus
#

@karmic portal its basically an exp that goes a bit faster, has stronger cheeks, worse frontal hull, relatively same side armor tier to tier but basically a fast t34 if the t34 had an upper plate the same as the exp.

karmic portal
#

Yeah but it’s sides seem quite weak

mental pasture
#

A super heavy tank with heavium agility and very powerful cannon. Doesn't seem one of the most healthy things for tier 10.

austere citrus
#

people are like OMG op tank, its rly not that op

#

After playing it more, the tank is not op. It's a pretty good tank like the Kranvagn but it's not OP.

frail silo
#

Yeah it is just faster than a cheiftan
With a really good turret and very good front when angling in a hulldown position
And has a very punchy gun with an on par DPM.
Indeed just pretty good.

LMAO,
Yeah sure. @RoundBear#6969

austere citrus
#

Ngl, I feel like Super Conqueror(balanced tank) is better than the m4 mle 54.

unique scaffold
#

@unique scaffold grande gueule va

jagged crescent
#

Egirl's becoming more convincing by the minute

dense yoke
# jagged crescent Egirl's becoming more convincing by the minute

Nice to know
@austere citrus i smell bias, from you.
Just because, you got the tank doesn't mean you should be biased.
It reminds me of when (ATGMS) Sheridan was added to the game.
Everyone was saying that they were balanced and they were not.
Which is why they nerfed and eventually removed because of the critics.
---
Same with smasher.
Some people say it is balanced and what is so shocking is that, they own the tank.
*bias *bias

winged barn
#

It's like say someone is a stevo in the ratings chat

karmic portal
#

Wasn’t a person here named popcan?

minor minnow
#

Perfectly possible, but there was Stevo and like 2 others... anyone remember who they were?

Cancracker that was it, damn there’s been a few that just went off the rails huh

jagged crescent
#

mostly Stevo, Cancracker, nobody else has gotten to their levels of tilt yet. . .

tier 10 med pen buff when

dense yoke
#

Atgms were removed,
Can Sheridan and T92E1 get 640 alpha?
Just like T49?
The 560 alpha was an disadvantage because they got Atgms.
Now that Atgms are removed could they get the 640 alpha?

winged barn
#

Tier 10 heavy nerf when?

Buffs the tds (which suck)
Buffs the meds (heavy snaccs)
Buffs the lights (annoying heavy snaccs)

hardy hazel
#

No, the 560 alpha for those tanks is ok, if you buff its alpha too much then why play tds or E100?

minor minnow
#

If you were to buff the alphas you’d have Light tanks on more steroids than what would happen if the Smasher and Annihilator had a child

karmic portal
#

Sheridan defender when?

hardy hazel
sinful leaf
#

@dense yoke if you're struggling with using 560 alpha you're doing something wrong

austere citrus
#

@dense yoke Ah yes, everyone who owns a specific tank is biased. Nice to know.

dense yoke
nimble zodiac
#

@austere citrus I'm biased for T-2020 and IS-7 :p

past cove
#

Personally, as an owner of the ANNIHILATOR, I must say that it is 100% OP. I play this thing, and it’s triple barrels are a thing to be DISGUSTED. So, as someone who owns it, I must say it’s very OP to say the least and should be NERFED. At the same time, I will also say the SMASHER is on the same level. And would kindly like to remind Wargaming, as a 6-year+ player since the games beginning, these two tanks could be the most OP vehicles and can cause the most pain ever. Even more so than ATGM’S. So kindly remember, fellow players, the KV-2 is the KING OF DERP. Not the bloody Smasher. There comes a time when we kinda got to come to our senses and observe the comparisons between things that are OP and need nerfs and things that are balance from the start and should have nerfs removed. Kindly look at this statement and think carefully about comprising an answer out of rationale. FACTS are things we should not forget. Good luck on the Battlefield and Merry Christmas 🎄🎁. See you in 2021. DM me if you are on the same ground as I am.

Sincerely,
The Tank Commander

minor minnow
#

Well then

winged barn
#

keni otsu
But otherwise yes. If only weegee would consider actually balancing instead of doing whatever the hellcat they are doing now.

muted rampart
#

Hellcat is really balanced rn 🤣 🤣 🤣

noble quail
#

Yes

austere citrus
#

AMX 54 is a very good tank but not OP.

hardy hazel
#

We know

austere citrus
#

btw the only op thing about amx 54 is the speed, everythng else is decent at most

jagged crescent
#

ok egirl

hardy hazel
#

That thing is too fast

safe oxide
#

The T25 prot. Is very slow and I think I regret using it now I'm suffering to get the T30

junior yoke
#

buff Kranvagn please for: maneuverability and dpm pls

nimble zodiac
#

Nope, it trades a lot for its specialties

latent snow
#

I want to get the amx 54 purely to ram people with

austere citrus
#

its not a rammer, its quite light

fallow raptor
#

You absolutely have to balance the amx m4 54, he has it all: impenetrable armor in the front, the hips are not bad, to make it even stronger you have given it for no reason 480 of medium damage, it is almost as fast as a medium tank, it is precise and it's hard to cod with a medium, Wargaming, please stop making super op premium or collectible floats, at least put them searchable or reachable by everyone, I think not only me but also the whole community is disappointed

austere citrus
#

it aint op, the lower plate isnt incredibly weak, 183 can pen the lower plate, sides are weak, turret is easy HE since the sides/back cheeks are thin(but angled), but yes the speed is quite insane for a tank this big and armored, but the other points arent so good.

fallow raptor
#

Guys, we have to do something to change this situation, we can't continue like this, what do you propose to do to change something?

karmic portal
#

I think it’s overcooked, and op the amx54. However I don’t think it breaks the game

As long as they only sell it in crates I’m fine with it. I just don’t want it to be too common

muted rampart
#

We can do nothing as long as bigger part of community won t agree lol @fallow raptor

sharp laurel
#

IS-4 sad noises

coarse harness
#

Prepare for the AMX meta in the next tournament season

muted rampart
#

ehhh. no god please no. NO

remote oriole
#

They should rename their balance department to imbalance department to reflect their work. They do a terrible job right now, as this game is either bullying or getting bullied