tank-balance-discussion

[grave yew]

Where is the Chanel where they get posted?

[mental haven]

YESSS

[sweet skiff]

absolutely not

[void halo]

can't wait

[sudden granite]

Yes plss

[silent anvil]

When will it be released？ I can't wait

[ornate warren]

Lets hope tvp gets a proper change so we can actually enjoy battles even at a slightest rate when we face it , especially when its in doubles

@tidal turtle thank god

[unique scaffold]

whe r chanel

[tidal turtle]

They mentioned last week that the alpha is getting nerfed, plus maybe a few other things, so I'm definitely hopeful

[tacit parcel]

Buff Krans mobility little bit

[woeful pelican]

they removed to add the changes and reactions so it doesnt become a mess

[unique scaffold]

I see.

[tame sail]

Where can i see all of the balances?

Ah bruh

[acoustic estuary]

They are not on display as the ‘’coming soon’’ section has been remove.

[upper jolt]

Coming soon is up guys!

[unkempt quest]

umm, you forgot to post the changes wargaming XD

[lapis yacht]

reload discord, please)

[gloomy anchor]

EU tanks balance changes seems good 👍

@fickle sable #coming-soon

[scarlet bridge]

I didn't expect European tank changes to be this well, especially 60TP.

[fickle sable]

where are they

[coral kettle]

Strv K casually getting ruined 😭

[grave yew]

Noooo not my strvk

[robust hull]

How much will the engine power on progetto 65 improve?

[normal fulcrum]

60TP what changes ammo APCR round

[unique scaffold]

omg finally nerfed strv so i dont have to slave away in it

[stuck acorn]

finally no more STRV K in tournament meta

[cyan vale]

W

[tawny prairie]

tvp alpha not nerfed? L

[unkempt quest]

oh, thanks. weird bug. spasibo artik
the changes look great, the only thing i find somewhat questionable is the engine power reduction for the minotauro

[neat sentinel]

Not in 10.3 🙂

[sweet skiff]

tvp got an intraclip nerf but the magazine reload is…buffed? wg really doesn’t want to nerf the tvp huh…

overall 10.3 is a terrible update

[upper jolt]

Finally the Kran is actually fast. 40 tons and goes 30km, always felt like a scam.

[neat canopy]

Let me add a heart reaction for the TVP change for not killing it

[inland talon]

what the heck the 60tp doesnt need apcr, also it doesnt need more dpm its fine for what is it. omg why WG is doing this. it doesnt need more 40 plus damage its already pretty good cause it always hit high rolll all the time.

[acoustic estuary]

Ah yes, ‘’not now’’

[willow sedge]

什么动静

[late swan]

WG actually did well balancing the European Tanks ngl

[quaint marlin]

Ye

[patent vapor]

I feel like a completely different set of guys made these final changes compared to the previous ones because these all look quite promising so far, except for the fact the mino didn't get a dpm buff 🫡

[tidal turtle]

What? All of the balance changes look good? Am I dreaming?

• TVP intraclip gets reduced to something more sane, and the annoying-ass mantlet+ufp get nerfed. Thank you.
• 60TP loses accuracy (sigh), but gets the biggest heavy tank gun in the game even ignoring tungsten. And it keeps the same mobility! This should be interesting.
• A few badly-needed buffs, like a mobility buff on the kran, a DPM buff on the prog (sadly no accuracy, but I'll take DPM)
  This is great! Really looking forward to giving the 60TP a try in 10.3. If only the other changes were this good...

[craggy grove]

Strv K: turret armor and lower glacis plate are weakened. Reload time will become 0.29 s longer. Armor penetration for AP shells is set at 252 mm. Gun stabilization gets improved. Combat Stabilization battle mechanics are added while Improved Engine Power Boost consumable is removed.
So you remove it's trade point of being a fast heavium, for what exactly? Combat stabilization? That mechanic is a little worthless given you play on meds sides and if you stay as slow as the mechanic requires you to be, you'd essentially be free damage bonus code, especially since armor is getting nerfed, too. Lol, as if it had any much to begin with.

[charred comet]

No, the same guys are in charge :) That's how rebalances and meta changes actually work

[winter dagger]

You know I think WG decided to end their relationship with all paying customers lool the benefits of better f2p just went 🆙

[tawny prairie]

whats the point of making the weak armor strv k has even worse

[stoic wadi]

As a 60tp player I see the damage buff as an absolute win

[sage bridge]

Mino and carro almost no changes, I thought mby they can get some good consumables at least, aim consumable or shell reload, guns are rly not that comfortable on these tanks

[vivid skiff]

were they on substances when they were rebalancing the other lines

[radiant birch]

holy guacamole are these some actually good balance changes?

[sweet skiff]

the eu changes is the best batch in 10.3, only thing i hate is that they buffed tvp’s magazine reload by 2 seconds

[stuck acorn]

European tech tree changes when compared to others (especially british ones) look, suprisingly well.

• 60TP received exactly what i wanted it to receive. More alpha, and better aim time at the cost of gun handling and reload. It'd be better if improved gear oil got removed from the tank though
• Carro changes are pretty insignificant which i guess is fine since i can imagine there is not a lot of data for the tank performance.
• Progetto changes adress the tank's problems, but i feel like further gold pen nerfs and turret armor buffs are pretty unnecessary
• When it comes to minotauro i like the HP increase, but i feel like it lacks an armor rebalance which is crucial to balance out the tank
• TVP nerf is good, intraclip got nerfed which is something everybody wanted. Turret armor nerf is also welcome
• VZ is a pretty unpopular tank so slight buff is a good thing, i can't tell anything more about it though since you didn't show exact values
• STRV K change is an amazing one, this tank was a crucial part of tournament meta for way too long, nobody wants premium/collector tanks being top meta ones so this is a great thing. It is not ruined by any means and kicked out of meta at the same time
• Kran - again good change, but i feel like all these buffs should come with addition of some even small additional turret weakspot so we won't end up in a very toxic kran meta yet again

[acoustic estuary]

Strv k, Was a bit too meta, and as wg said, they want to change the meta.

[neat sentinel]

No, you not dreaming 🙂

[charred comet]

The armor stays pretty good for opposing meds, and Combat stabilization is going to work fine while using obstacles / hull down at med positions

[late swan]

60TP gonna do like 760 with Tungsten

[inland talon]

Well in the next tanks balances they will probadly nuke 60tp but oh well we rejoice for now, i also don't like using APCR, AP should be the standard on big tanks like this one. its getting worse dispersion. even longer reload.

[scenic olive]

60tp not gaining 100 alpha, wg worded it horribly. It’s gaining 100 hp and gaining 30 alpha damage

[robust hull]

Any idea on how much will the engine power improve in progetto?

[ebon lynx]

Mino rebalance is, weird..

[clear shuttle]

mino aint changing much apart from the fact it gets slightly slower

[craggy grove]

Wdym meta it was essentially a T95E6 with lesser alpha and no turret weakspot... (since entire turret was a weakspot), it was a very gimmicky vehicle and it's going to be completely reduntant now, especially since T95E6 got buffed.
At least I am not the only one who thinks so.

[patent vapor]

I was joking when I said that btw ik the same group worked on these changes lol. My bad if it came off too literal 😆

but overall yeah good changes. Not much to say other than the Mino needed (I mean really needed) a dpm buff.

Also genuine question but what's the thought proces behind the team assigning multiple different damage values to the same calibres of guns? Is it to compensate for the other changes made or because the team prefer to not touch some characteristics of certain vehicles, so the alpha adjustment is the only way to go?

I ask this because of consistency and how it'll be harder for newer players (even current players) to remember the alpha of a vehicle. Previously, if you were to come up against tier 10 mediums with a 105mm, you'd assume they all did 350 dmg (apart from a few) but nowadays it's quite annoying to make those judgements since alphas have varied quite a lot.

I just liked the consistency before and am just asking 🙂

[neat sentinel]

The exact figure will be in the news, which will be released closer to the update 🙂

[acoustic estuary]

Being in tourneys not stop isn’t a sign of being ‘’meta’’
So now it won’t be in tourney as you said. The whole point of these balance are to change the meta.

[wooden lynx]

Give Progetto 65 better gun handling pls

[novel thorn]

Rip strv looks like it got everything it was taken away I’ll just use the e6 and 113 now

[mint chasm]

finally nerf for tvp

[winter dagger]

The tvp destroyed ratings and pubs for so long, now the stb reigns supreme

[neat sentinel]

Binding damage to caliber - greatly fettered us when setting up tanks, and also made tanks of the same type. We began to gradually move away from this binding in order to make tanks more unique in terms of gameplay.

[craggy grove]

I do not really care about tourneys, I am just saying that T95E6 is a stronger at the same role than Strv K. The funny 50kmph nitro boosts it had was the only reason to use it over E6, and now it's taken away, with both of the tanks getting combat stabs and Strv getting armor and DPM nerf on top of it, these changes are complete nonsense. Strv K was not overpreforming to begin with, how did it deserve all this?

[inland talon]

60tp dont need more Dpm i dont why you want more dpm if your gun can always hit high roll numbers and accurate.

[late swan]

Welp, Now we have to wait for the 🇰🇵 tank changes lol

[scenic olive]

I think people are upvoting the 60tp change because they think it’s getting 700 alpha which it is not💀 it’s going up to 630, and the HIT POINTS go up by 100. And the pen is garbage now both on standard and pramo

[humble depot]

WG actually did decent with the EU balance change. 60TP is brought in line with other high alpha heavies in terms of damage, TVP and STRV K get nerfed to a degree that keeps them balanced yet not as insane, and Vz gets some slight improvements.

[charred comet]

Damage per shot is one of the parameters that affect game performance greatly. We've decided that keeping those caliber ←→ damage bindings restrict us way too much when changes are needed to separate two or more tanks gameplay-wise. I know that it used to be more straightforward but we need more ways for re-balancing

[elder pagoda]

Ridiculous, Strv will nerf dpm, lmaoo
He has nothing expect dpm

[acoustic estuary]

Wg staff wanted a change in the tourneys as i said.

1. Diverses the meta in tourneys
2. Now that strv k is ‘’nerfed’’, people will buy another t10 premium.

It’s a way of making money.

[unique scaffold]

Why is every tank getting apcr over ap now ?

[neat sentinel]

Based on the statistics - STRVK-K was a rather evil tank. After evaluating its parameters, we came to the conclusion that these are the most optimal changes for this tank.

[glossy phoenix]

Pls why is Strv K a heavy?

[robust hull]

Encouraging close range battles, I guess

[sage bridge]

Forcing to play at close range

[dull gust]

So excited for the tvp

[charred comet]

Not every one, just the tanks we want to be specialized for close combat

[short gyro]

Turn Kran into an Autoloader >:(

[wide badge]

Why reduced the mino engine power too?

[shadow axle]

why are they nerfing the 45t? its already pretty bad tbh

[icy linden]

Man progetto deseeved better buff its dpm is not even 2900 even after the buff

[ancient rampart]

“we want these tanks to be specialized for close combat so we’re going to give it a substantial hit to its pen and make it worthless at any distance”

[radiant birch]

give 🇲🇽 some love too

[patent vapor]

my honest take is that the tank is quite strong and used in tourneys a lot, and in a toon is very strong. However, the armour nerfs do seem quite unnecessary.

The thing defining the strvk was that it's a heavy that could brawl against mediums because of its dpm. The reload increase is good, and so is the removal of the super speed boost.

I wouldve just opten for those 2 changes and everything else stays the same. That way it'd be forced to brawl with heavies more instead of shredding mediums

@neat sentinel @charred comet Ah I see. Well I hope in that case there could be some consistency in assigning a range to those damage values then? Maybe if the tank has a 105mm, the dmg per shot can vary from 310-360 or something? Just a suggestion to keep some consistency between calibre/damage values. Thankyou for responding 🙂

[shrewd remnant]

It’s kinda OP lol. I think this change is fine because it’s receiving armor in exchange for speed. Usually that’s how it works…

[mental haven]

Power/Weight Ratio (hp/t)
17.12 -> 18.2

I will post all these changes with details. I dont know why WG doesnt...

[acoustic estuary]

It’s getting more armor for a slight mobility nerf, i don’t think it’s a nerf.

@sinful shoal #coming-soon

[sinful shoal]

Where the balances ????

[fallow tinsel]

agree

[charred comet]

At great distances only

[humble depot]

The issue with that is it creates some really wild damage differences on same- caliber guns. Once 10.3 hits, for instance, there will be a 60 point difference between the Vickers light and Leopard 1 when both use variations of the same L7 gun. Besides, aren’t there other parameters you can change to diversify gameplay?

[clear shuttle]

it was very popular in comp meta as its pretty “versatile” compared to alot of the other tanks.
for comp it has

• speed + sped boost to get to positions really quickly and for rotations
• enough turret “armour” to bounce some stuff in hull down positions
• 3.4k dpm
• heavy HP while essentially being a glorified medium
  those “features” is what also made it useful for pushing and rush strats
  even if it dosent perform too well in pubs its definitely used extremely often in comp across all servers.
  and for pubs you could basically roll up to the medium side and brawl out other meds with YOUR mediums as well and essentially win that side due to you having the hp and dpm to deal with them.
  im honestly fine with these changes as it may make it less viable in comp while keeping it usable in pubs

[neat sentinel]

Yes, we keep the general binding to the logic "The larger the gun, the more painful it hits", however, within the same caliber, there may be some variation in damage values 🙂

[craggy grove]

Funny you put "nerfed" into quotation marks, it is literally getting nerfed across the board, but I guess you are right, comp did spam Strv K this summer season, I did not watch the BSC though.

In regards to EviL_PENGUiN_'s response, I don't think it was mean enough to warrant all these nerfs. I guess it makes it more balanced. Still, I'd hope we see it getting the improved engine boost back in the future as it was really the most fun and distinct aspect of the vehicle.

_TheOdyssey [MISRY]
It is a heavy because it'd kinda suck without the heavy HP pool, and because it shares hull with Kranvagn, another heavy vehicle.

[willow silo]

Is super conq premium AP change in upcoming update valid or typo error?

[versed night]

@charred comet what impact is expected to be seen in tournament meta, due to the changes? Faster gameplay or slower, or more/less strategical?

[inland talon]

the American tier 10 heavy will also have APCR, why is this though? the e4 tank destroyer.

[patent vapor]

alright good to hear. Around when will all these changes drop into live servers? Will we get all the changes at once or like nation by nation in short intermissions (say like 1 rebalanced nation per patch)

[hoary mist]

@neat sentinel For the super conqueror, you have stated that the AP/AP/HE are being nerfed in terms of penetration, do you mean APCR for the 2nd shell or is the super conq getting AP as a secondary shell

[ancient rampart]

APCR is a pen nerf at any distance due to the decreased normalization compared to AP

[arctic osprey]

lol TVP just got buffed

[fallow tinsel]

.
THE
RISE
OF
KRANVAGN

[hexed spindle]

60TP in 10.3 gonna have 15s reload(with gun rammer) for me is garbage

[neat sentinel]

All voiced rebalances will arrive on the main servers in 10.3 🙂

[charred comet]

At short distances, you can aim pretty sharply to hit the desired weak armor zones

[sinful shoal]

I can't see the balances pls help me

[charred comet]

Ctrl+R

[mental haven]

Detailed Changes

- Progetto 65

Turret armor weakened (Gun mantlet and turret armor next to it) [nerf]
HP reduced, 1900 to 1800 (nerf)
Armor penetration weakened, 245/295/53 to 240/290/50 (nerf)
Power/Weight Ratio increased, 17.20 to 18.20 (buff)
Shell reload times decreased, 8.15 → 6.71 → 5.27 to 7.67 → 5.75 → 4,79 (buff)

Next, Carro 45 t

[willow silo]

@neat sentinel is super conq premium AP change real or just a typo error?

[ebon lynx]

Could you give me a reason behind the Minotauro's nerf to its horsepower?
It's already very slow for a non-german heavy vehicle, and I'm not even counting the terrible dispersion.

[hoary mist]

If any dev could answer it would be greatly appreciated so I can know if it's worth it or not to buy the tank from the auction 👍 @charred comet @neat sentinel

Okay thank you

[neat sentinel]

Sorry, we fixed description 🙂
AP\APCR\HE
He will not receive APCR as an alternative shell.

[patent vapor]

So not too far away then. Will there be a final post/posts of all the confirmed rebalances or whether or not any statistic changes were altered from their initial announcements? If I remember correctly, so far only the EU and Russian changes were met with mostly positive responses by the community.

I feel like you guys should drop the final confirmed changes if there are any made before 10.3

[charred comet]

It's just 0.5 h.p.
And it's one of the best Tier X TDs performance-wise

[fallow tinsel]

@neat sentinel @charred comet will vk 168 get the emergency track mechanic just like WOT implemented

[mental haven]

- Carro da Combattimento 45 t

Turret armor becomes stronger (unknown values)
Power/Weight Ratio decreased, 17.2 to 16.2
Max. foward speed decreased, 55 to 53

- Minotauro

APCR becomes the new base shell type, its velocity is reduced, as well as the engine power. HP count grows to 2000 points; HEAT shell velocity is increased.

Power/Weight Ratio decreased, 13.4 to 12.6

Next, Kranvagn

[hexed spindle]

Kran gonna be meta Tour for real

[ebon lynx]

Well, not ideal in my eyes, but at least it's not terrible.

[neat sentinel]

Not planned for the near future

[inland talon]

but the 60tp is already frontline brawler though, APCR doesnt make sense at all.

[charred comet]

Yes. After the open test, we'll share the details if any of these re-balance adjustments are changed based on the test results

[unique scaffold]

giving apcr shells as base shells maybe a nerf, apcr shells are prone to bounce off more often then ap shells due to normalisation

[patent vapor]

alright sounds good 🙂

[sage bridge]

did you think to slightly improve the stabilization and accuracy for carro, I understand it can do 1.5k dmg for 10 sec, but right now most of the times when you are shooting on mid or long distance you are hitting 2-3 out of 4 shells, it has worst gun comfort from all meds on tier 10

[ancient spade]

THIS

I think it would be better for the kran overall to go 40 and have super speed removed

[honest knot]

ngl, the comp streams with really fast StrvKs making pushes out of nowhere was really impressive and fun to see... but the tank does need a nerf.

Excited to see how it will perform after 10.3 👍

[scenic olive]

Vz 55 is still mid

[fallow tinsel]

@neat sentinel @charred comet when we can join the test server

[unique scaffold]

Don’t know about that, all the pen nerfs will help it

[clear shuttle]

it’ll just become a slightly better pubs tank

[charred comet]

Follow the #open-test-announcements channel

[stoic cave]

I think vz and e3 needs slightly more reverse

[winter dagger]

And traverse, that thing has 40 right now I'm probably wrong on the numbers tho

[pine bison]

The STRV is getting Bonked hahaha 🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭😭 why ??

[mental haven]

- Kranvagn

Max. forward speed increased, 30 to 34
Power/Weight Ratio increased, 12.4 to 13.8
Terrain crossing capacity increased, 80/74/52 to 104/74/52
Hull turn speed increased, 25° to 32.3° (huge buff)
Shell reload times decreased, 13.52 → 9.5 → 8.52 to 12.73 → 8.81 → 7,83
Aiming time increased, 3.8 to 4.7
Armor penetration weakened, 258/340/60 to 253/330/60

Next, Strv K

[unique scaffold]

Very true my friend, very true, I like the dpm buff too, I run 60% in it, to me it’s a good strong Teir X, i will say I don’t like the strv nerfs, especially after wg made them so hard to get, stripping dpm I’m not happy about

[sage bridge]

E6 gonna be the same now, don't worry

[scenic olive]

Ya I can see that helping it, but it needed reverse speed buff and maybe change the mechanic so that it works when going forward or backwards at 20, this would make the mechanic a lot more useful

[pine bison]

the New comp meta tank 4 sure

[stuck acorn]

That's good to hear, but then why Foch 155 with 155mm gun has 500 alpha while minotauro with 130mm gets 490?

And up to the current 10.3 rebalance AMX M4 54 with 130mm actually had and tbh still has more alpha since update is not up yet when using tungsten shells than foch.

Even previously with 560 alpha foch wasn't that hard hitting and now it became even worse. You can argue that it gets 1000 burst damage, but it's not an excuse at all since other tanks get similar or even better burst without such a huge flaws like complete lack of versatility

[vagrant elbow]

Yes

[unique scaffold]

I get that it played strong, I’m definitely good with super speed boost being gone tho, but I’m curious to see the detailed stats

[craggy dune]

Why can't progetto have the standard b's hesh? I really feel like the b is better than the 65 currently, but hopefully it will change soon. Really looking forward to playing the new progetto.

[neat sentinel]

Foch's specialty is his autoload gun. Agree, if you give 2 shells for 600+ damage, it will be an extremely toxic tank. In this particular case, I had to deviate from the general rule in favor of the balance of the tank as a whole. Otherwise - this tank would break the system

[pine bison]

Standard B is an Italiano-german project based on Leo prot Hull and German HEP shells but the Prog isn't all of that

[fallow tinsel]

@neat sentinel the new t10 is going keep the dpm of 3k then will the the alpha get nerf?

[stuck acorn]

It would not be toxic at all if you take care of huge alpha HE problem, by just reducing alpha on this specific type of shell to 800 or below.

You already have tanks in game that can deal as much or more damage per clip than foch would with 600/640 alpha in similar time while being able to take those shots way more conveniently. Great example being T57 heavy that deals 1200 damage within 5 seconds (or even less than 4 with shell reload boost), or TVP that will be able to deal 1240 damage within 5,6s after the update.

Original Foch autoloader with 640 alpha was never broken because of alpha itself, but rather because of HE that allowed it to 2 shot some tanks.

Why would you play a foch 155 if you can just take the yoh with 2 shot gun that will allow you to deal very similar damage, twice as fast and with way more HP and versatility given by the turret?

[winter dagger]

4005 can do it in 6 seconds 1640 damage but it is the size of my house, so out of every auto loader Foch is like a liability, they need to give it an edge somehow

[hearty steeple]

Well... To be perfectly honest, it isn't just the dmg potential but the idea of two shell autoloaders is inherently toxic.

[neat sentinel]

Well, such an alpha will somehow break his alternative guns. It will be obvious that the autoloaded gun is better. We believe that killing weapon alternatives is a bad approach.

[humble depot]

Then why not give the Tier IX Foch its old 120mm back lmao

[tiny prism]

Bought super conqueror recently n they gonna nerf pen 7/6/'50" AP/APCR/HE, 7/6 is understandable but 50 on HE lmbo how that's a balanced change 50 lmfao

[shy wren]

That’s unfortunate, but it does make sense. Condensing the damage potential in two shots brings the best out of an autoloader and a single-shot tank; having to minimize exposure while maximizing damage output is very powerful. You could see the case in the Bourrasque, T77, M-VI-Yoh and Obj. 752.

[stuck acorn]

Why not change the alternative gun as well then? The biggest issue of single shot gun on foch was always the fact that it traded a huge amount of DPM for some gun handling, which just wasn't worth it at all.

Why not give it some other edges over autoloader? Since you introduced new alphas why not make use of them? If autoloader had 640 alpha with 780 HE then single shot could have 670-80 with 1000+ HE.

It could also have better gun handling just like it used to be and a DPM difference could be reduced

You didn't need to slaughter it's alpha and eliminate unique long intraclip playstyle in order to balance out the guns

[mental haven]

can u give more detailed info about VK90, M4's and 215bs armor change? Like IS-4, 263, 260, hori and 113 gft.

[unique scaffold]

I actually agree with that

[craggy dune]

I mean half of the tanks are made up, so it would be nice for gameplay reasons

[tiny prism]

They haven't improved it's HE resistance on turret which was needed instead they gonna take away it's only ability which was helpful

[hearty steeple]

The issue with the first iteration of the Foch autoloader was obviously the high alpha. Back then heavies had the old HP pool as well. These alpha nerfs to the autoloader wouldn't hurt as much if atleast some quality of life improvements were made for it. Something like Better gun arc or lower bloom. Right now, Foch just feels like an awkward tank to use. The armor profile doesn't hold that well at close range and it can't really play from distance because of the tiny gun arc and bloom

[stuck acorn]

It actually never was an alpha. It was HE alpha that allowed it to 2 shot mediums and TDs since it could pen them quite easly from the side and rear. 1280 damage within 7 seconds wasn't anything new or broken in particular.

I back up on the last statement, it was actually added just few updates before HP buffs

[humble depot]

The Standard B is WG not knowing what to do for Tier IX and claiming that Italy got the Leopard prototype.

[unique scaffold]

Standard b is goated

[hearty steeple]

I don't remember exactly when Foch autoloader was introduced but the autoloader was nerfed to 560/545/680 in update 6.7 heavy tank HP buff was update 6.9 so the autoloader definitely existed before. Around 6 months or so before I'd say

[stuck acorn]

yeah, i just watched few old videos, i was wrong on this one, but i still think alpha was never an issue on it

All they needed to do is decrease HE from 960 to like 780-800

[slender latch]

Is far from busted I think it tries to be what the E6 is which is a better heavium

[versed night]

what will be krv dpm

[silent star]

45t has been weakened，Unless the head armor of the end game is given, there will be no change in the armor after the attack, but it will be weakened.

[dapper surge]

any plans on fixing magnate front armor?

[hearty steeple]

The standard alpha wasn't as big of an issue as he for sure. But i still think it was an issue. It felt the same way as modern autoloader where it could pop out drop a shell and do it again in 7 seconds. Or rather it didn't need to expose itself long enough to be punished for that dmg potential.

But then again I was extremely trash at the time

[violet oar]

any want nerf italy tank armor?

[craggy grove]

That being said, Strv K changes remind me that IRL Kranvagn and by extension Strv K had much weaker armor, which might allow to make them small, nimble flanker heavies, which could provide for an interesting gameplay, but then again, AMX 50B kinda fills the niche of fast heavy already.

[neat leaf]

They exchanged the AP for the APCR of Minotauro, but why didn't they do the same as 60TP? which is to increase the alpha damage from 490 to I don't know 510 to 520? Made him slower than he already is but does not increase alpha damage -_-

[fervent rampart]

they didnt increase the damage because it didnt need the damage increased, simple as that

[whole silo]

Okay.... That's welcome buff for kranvagn....

Interclip become 2.5 secs and more forward speed.... Yes pls!!!!

[unique scaffold]

don't worry random yolo will just nuke your hp

[chrome comet]

มีคนไทยไหม

[scenic kindle]

English only

[neat leaf]

Great justification for them to make the poor thing slower than it already is and change AP for APCR, l Let's make him more Mobility Broxant but at the same time let's make him more interesting with Alpha Damage increased by 10 or 20 🦆

[stuck acorn]

Just make the armor actually worth anything while giving it some proper weakspots at the same time. It's as simple as that

[thorny timber]

Most of the meds at t8 are really good once you dig into them,they're just overshadowed by the ridiculously overpowered meta heavies or even one of their own,chimera and that's your another daily dose of nerf t8 heavies

Eu balances seem OK,I still feel like the Mino was just made more lazy by giving it a more chunky hp pool now,what do you people think?

[hazy frost]

Tbh i was expecting for prog 65 to get a fourth shell or sth like that

[twin egret]

useless penetration nerf on the prog 65. Unneeded

[remote sluice]

u can give the single shot gun 640 alpha damage, while the autoloader can get 580 alpha w 5s intraclip. that wont break its alternative guns.

either u go for an accurate 640 alpha gun w 960 HE damage, or u go for an autoloading 580 alpha and 5s intraclip that has a very distinctive and unique playstyle that no other tank has. isnt this what yall at wg aim for? yall want unique tanks right? here, this is a unique tank that can be balanced out by either poor accuracy or 20s-ish reload for poor dpm

if ur scared that the autoloading foch can 1 clip a grille again, think abt it. the grille has spall liner, this tank’s HE can have like 750 alpha or even worse if u want. it will never be able to one clip a grille.

and abt toxicity. the T57 can dump its clip and do 1200 dmg in 5s. the Foch w this proposed gun can do 1160 dmg in 5s, but the Foch does not have the accuracy the T57 has, its also turretless, the reverse speed is sub-par, and the armor isnt great either. its not toxic

@twin egret its world of tanks so anything could happen haha

[errant shard]

Guys what do u think about 60tp?

[twin egret]

Who is facing a foch head on in a grille? lol

[twilit crystal]

Ur gun suggestion is 2725 dpm base lol.

[tidal turtle]

It's getting nerfed overall (APCR<AP, worse pen, worse gun handling), but not by much. None of its defining characteristics are getting nerfed (turret, alpha, decent mobility), so it's still going to be a good heavy in 10.3.

[scenic olive]

I think it’s kind of a nerf, sure u gain 30 alpha, 100 hp, and a little bit of aim time, but the penetration got nuked 💀 I mean Good luck to anyone who uses rammer, and the horrible gun handling gets worse, plus a dpm nerf although small still a nerf.

[remote sluice]

the current foch has 2731 dpm, which goes up to like 2800 or 2900 dpm when fully equipped.

so when we fully equip the foch w that gun suggestion, it still only has max 2900 dpm, which is below average for a tier 10 TD. ur looking at stuff that has above 3k-4k dpm in tier 10, which can easily defeat the Foch. the Foch also does not have a turret and very poor armor behind the drivewheel, so meds can track and circle it w ease.

but if thats still too much, the inter clip can go up to 21s to balance it more

[jovial aurora]

nobody wants 70% of the changes to tier x.. why do you keep going as if its forced down our throats?

[scarlet carbon]

Grille continuously getting nerfed and nerfed and nerfed... are u guys angry in that tank?

[thorny timber]

Because people pretend as if wg is gonna listen,they aren't and we're still gonna get these updates shoved up on our mouth

[final warren]

Thank goodness the TVP is getting an overall nerf. I don't think it needs even more dpm, but at least it takes an extra second to unload the clip and has worse gun handling

[frank bone]

How much dpm did strvk lose?

[scarlet carbon]

Grille never needs mobility coz its a freakin' tank destroyer and ur removing the most essential part of the Grille 15... "DAMAGE PER SHOT" and "PENETRATION" coz its has ZERO ARMOR and already GOOD MOBILITY so why the hell are u guys nerfing the dmg per shot again and making it more fast? U trying to make a light tank out of Grille? its a TANK DESTROYER, with 0 ARMOR, and youre reducing damage and making it F A S T 🤓

[remote sluice]

grille is a sneaky TD and somehow they’re making a brawling medium out of it lol

[wraith hornet]

Was the nerf on the STRV K needed? It really lacked penetration and hull armour. Why nerf the turret armor as well?

[gloomy patio]

yes the nerf is necessary

[scarlet carbon]

already doing that lmao, but even conceptually, grille is a camping tank, having no armor and looking like one 90000%

[void siren]

well the e100 12.8 cm has a haunting 530 damage alpha

[scarlet carbon]

can someone explain me why is it like that?

[rocky briar]

Kran looking pretty strong after the update ngl

[rocky briar]

I always figure it needed camo after the 9.1 changes, surprising that a tiny TD with no armor and good mobility has the 3rd worst camo among Tier 10 TDs, and a worse camo value than more dangerous tanks than it like the FV4005.

But what do I know it's not like the two tanks before it in the line are known for their exceptional camo values. 🤪

[void siren]

ok it must get rhm borsig accuracy that is the balance change that the grille 15 needs

[dusk willow]

i still say they add on the autoloader that you have to grind out, but do we have an exact number towards the VZ55's reload buff?

[rain reef]

10.9s -> 10.2s

[feral scroll]

Why would they nerf the strv k’s armor? It’s already so terrible and needs a buff. Then they nerf the dpm too, AND remove the turbo boost? The tank is already one of the worst tier 10s in the game, what is the point of this change.

[burnt venture]

They just want it out of comp completely

[fathom rain]

Nothing got balanced. They randomly changed stats and that's it. Autoloaders are becoming even more broken (Prog & Kran) and the tvp is still op. Fv4005 can still do 1600 dmg and I'm deleting this game.

[eager cove]

and in a frontline ht. bad angles lead to bounce ,non pen.

wg already talk about the mechanics of AP, Apcr, Heat, Hesh, He but they didnt watch again their video.

[rocky briar]

It was very much used in comp, I guess they nerfed it down because they want the E6 to be the new meta Heavium.

[winter dagger]

And shove kran back in🥲

[twilit crystal]

Kran aiming in without reti is gonna be sad to see

[fleet tapir]

They just took everything from strvk, turned it to a toy, its fun to see that a tier 8 med centurion 5/1 has much better turret armor than it, not need to mention the ridiculous armor that e50m has while its just a med

[feral scroll]

Yeah strv is somehow even more useless now.

They should reclassify it as a medium, buff the speed, nerf the hp, and buff the gun handling.

[main tulip]

Almost every one of these changes are headed in the complete wrong direction

[humble depot]

The TVP will not be OP. It keeps the fast intra, yes, but it will be slower and less prone to randomly bouncing shots.

[trim beacon]

I guess AT15 and T95 need to be balanced on firing and maneuverability.

[hexed spindle]

cuz it meta tour and they use that reason to neft Strv k terrible

[granite pebble]

I mean the Strv is barely getting changed, it's crazy how people are so focused on it while the Carro becomes EVEN SLOWER for a little bit more armor

[twilit crystal]

carro is op though lol

[burnt venture]

Carro with turret armor + 380 alpha is going to be stupid against mediums. You legit cannot lose trades

[storm kiln]

2 things:

1.) I completely understand why WG wants to kick the Strv K out of comp. We all know how good that thing was in comp, and it’s usage and common-ness in the comp-scene proves that. It makes sense that, from a business and competitive standpoint, WG would want to nerf a tank like the Strv K.

2.) The Strv K is a Tier X premium tank, and thus, costs quite a hefty sum of money (it being sold primarily through crates doesn’t help either) - so why would you nerf something that people paid good money for? I’m not trying to say that premiums should remain untouched or only get buffs, but it’s not like the tank was egregiously overpowered and/or toxic, so people who either don’t play comp or just like the tank for what it currently is are literally getting ripped off. It’s decisions like the these —like nerfing the Strv K and AMX—, and more, that make me trust WeeGee less and less.

[sweet ember]

😂

[winter dagger]

I don't think it's gonna be a crazy amount but some meds like the wz121 with tungsten will be scary

[granite pebble]

The only way Carro wins trades is if the armor increase was enough to matter.

Carro still has a derpy gun, carro still is as slow as heaviums without the hp increase.

Unless carro turret somehow is going to increase to a point where most mediums can't pen it, then it's just getting a mobility nerf.

The armor as is was at the absolute most troll, not reliable, it was troll.

The turret armor is getting slightly buffed, which doesn't mean a whole lot when you only had enough armor to avoid getting HE nuked by TD's and HESH nuked.

Like the tank is strong, sure, but with what it's competition is gonna be in 10.3? Pffft, doubt it's gonna "not be losing" trades when STB's will be in every single match you play lobbing 300mm AP at you

[hollow pollen]

60tp gonna get pen nerf?

[deep saddle]

And the TVP T50 51 I just bought it, this nerf/balance made it unplayable?? Playable? Still Op?

[twilit crystal]

playable but be careful with that reverse speed, everything else is somewhat similar to pre 9.1

[winter dagger]

No it was too good before, so now it's between toxic and bad, so it will be alright in its niche

[jade bone]

why cant i see the european tank changes?

[thorny timber]

#coming-soon ?

[burnt venture]

I fail to see the problem here when the tank is legit an autoreloading 50B

[limber vortex]

If WG does nothing else right, at least they ended the STRV meta. Amen

[stuck ore]

They nerf the 60tp 's pen too much

[woven lantern]

ain't no way they nerfing carro 45t speed its not 45t anymore its seems like 65t

[alpine zealot]

730 alpha on 60tp? sheesh

[graceful ravine]

@delicate folio finally , some good balance changes on the european nation, 8/10 , the rest needs to be looked at, especially the m4 54 and sconq for that matter

[scenic olive]

A lot of people misread the 60tp changes so that’s probably why it has so many upvotes, it’s gaining 100 hp not alpha it’s only gaining 30 alpha for the massive penetration nerf

[winter dagger]

No it's 630 who is putting these numbers up

[willow wraith]

wg uses advanced english to announce changes and forgets their game is full of non anglosaxon 13 year olds

[scenic olive]

I really think 90% people who read the 60tp changes don’t actually understand what they mean, I’ve seen so many people in here saying it’s getting 700 alpha

[atomic geode]

Minotauro getting APCR and slower shells AND slower movement is dumb... Tank is already so slow it cant react or follow the battle. Then giving it APCR AND lower shell velocity to make it so you have to flight closer - while moving slower is dumb as hell. Also APCR sucks - I am not saying tank is underpowerd, but the nerfs will prolly make it so. Reload time is so long as it is - sure its got frontal armor, but that's it

[willow wraith]

uhm, yeah, thats what its kind of supposed to be...
An almost impenetrable bunker on top of ridge or hill

If you want a tank with such defensive capabilities but w speed you have kran

Look at minotaur as a less mobile but better holding kran

[shell thistle]

Thats the entire point 💀 no more camping hts

[alpine zealot]

yea thats a joke but okay

[scenic olive]

Wdym?

[atomic geode]

Its already so derpy accurate, and Kran can actually turn fast compared to Minotauro, has a real turret with better armor - no hatch. and is relatively accurate. I hate playing passive, but I guess you have to now. APCR with low shell velocity is gonna suck - Might not play it at all, one med goes your way and you are dead. I hate relying on the team to keep me safe. Kran can hold better hulldown, everyone learned which hatch to aim for in Mino

[stone drum]

Actually their English is quite poor and reaks of foreign/Slavic grammar.

[willow wraith]

The armor on the kran works worse and lets not forget how minotauro actually has more depression than displayed because wg cant put up valid information unless a tank is designed like a pz III because of "hidden" stats

Playing passive is what the tank is made for because its a holder tank with decently high alpha

Also, Kran is getting rebalanced rn so you can compare it again

and the low velocity is the gradual step to making the game not as campy as it is for a long time

Altho I do believe it was okay as it was before

[atomic geode]

Why play Mino? Or AMX M4 Mle 1954? after these nerfs. Again kran does not have 3 big hatches on top, so it holds better, and more DPM with the SAME premium pen. Mino armor is only good on high ground or against ppl who havent learned to aim at the hatch, and even then only frontally, turn that turret a bit, and everyone nails you

Woah, Progetto 65 looked like a buff, but it is losing pen and speed... WTF - shoulda gave it better on movement at least. Oh it is geting fastre, losing HP and pen tho

[granite pebble]

It's literally gaining speed and dpm 💀

[willow wraith]

Also, mino has way better frontal hull armor on flat terrain and forces everyone to use premium, also lets not forget the kran also has hatches on top which are 90 mm while minotauro has high chances to bounce, and not to mention that no tank is balanced in a way that it sits without moving while expecting to bounce every single shot, but when that does happen, the whole community goes wild

also, what, you play the meta only?

[keen dew]

kran also has stronger turret
krans hatches are so easy to hide

[atomic geode]

KRAN TURRET IMPENETRABLE TO MOST PREM!! Other than TD that is not Mino with 340 pen base HEAT - Mino turret has BIG hatches and is so slow it cant bob and weave at all - I cannot count the times I loaded prem and Kran Turret is 100% red - I try anyway and never pen, even with 374 HEAT it usually does not work. Frontally ofc which Kran is much better at keeping towards an enemy than Mino, given it turns and has a turret.

[keen dew]

kran turret can only be penned by e3, 268, jag and hori flat ground
and nothing can pen it hulldown

[granite pebble]

I just don't get why they didn't rebalance the Mino and make it a more enjoyable tank, instead they basically did nothing to the tank lol

People complained about the Mino's armor, so what did they do? They made the gun even worse, mobility worse, and then buffed the HP.
I don't get why they didn't just nerf the LP, the hatches, buff the gun up drastically, and call it a day

[atomic geode]

And look at Minotauro, lowest DPM by far for any TD - even if only counting first shot, 3rd shot is unusable unlike kran, and it is REALLY slow, makes kran look super fast FFS - and it is when super speed boost is active. Just comparing 2 tanks with worst in class DPM, one is way better off. Also Mino has second lowest alpha for the class with WORST accuracy for any TD in tier 10. And they are nerfing it other than HP, which is barely a buff @jovial patio You seem to forghet that the turret is easier to pen thatn Kran's also you maybe HAVENT noticed, but there are 3 big hatches, 2 of which are easy to pen with standard ffs

[alpine zealot]

stupidly lucky shot

[granite pebble]

Yep.

They could've made the tank a lot more enjoyable to play, but instead they just made it even less enjoyable to play without tackling any of the problems.

Even though the EU changes have overall been the best, they still didn't really tackle... ANY of the issues with the problematic tanks.

People say the Strv K will be out of meta like it doesn't still have 3.3k dpm, and even better gun handling. The armor was never reliable to begin with so the armor nerf is nigh irrelevant. The biggest change was the removal of the upgraded engine boost, but it's still at the end of the day a heavium with great gun handling and 2500hp.

[atomic geode]

@jovial patio Dude, IDGAF how a noob plays the tank, NO TANK has no weak spots - also flat ground - plus HE mechanics are buggy AF I have gotten HE pens easily against Minos. Anyone who has played more than a day knows HE is broken, thorw that at a super conqueror turret and do 300-500 dmg

[main tulip]

The EU changes are generally too tame, consisting of very minor and often misguided changes, as well as giving in to the community with regards to the TVP and Strv K, and for that I consider them the worst round of changes.

[atomic geode]

You sounded serious, but I get it now. Also yeah, mobility was the last nerf Mino needed

Yeah, they only show up inf the game modes - which I am fine with. I coulda got one, but I don't care enough to get a Sheri that can only play fun modes. REALLY glad those arent buzzing around randoms. @jovial patio Also that shot was insane bro!

[proud abyss]

How much is the engine power nerf to obj 260?

[granite pebble]

We've no idea yet

[atomic geode]

I love TVP, and I am OKAY with the TVP nerf currently, it seems to be keeping its on the move dispersion and aimtime - which are what really make it always hit its target - wonder what accuracy will be tho, .336 like Progetto? That wouldnt be terrible cause it has much better on movement. The tank is going from a 4.5 sec clip to a 5.64 sec. @jovial patio makes sense, still is a skill to estimates how far away the missile is. Glad they cant corner like that anymore tho

[limber eagle]

Anyone knows about the specs of Kran buff?

[granite pebble]

It's not gonna be very big of a buff on anything other than hard and soft terrain

Also I'd like to note for everyone that the Progetto will have 3.2k dpm for firing the first two shells, which is comparable to the Carro's dpm on its first two shells.

[limber eagle]

Lol Droddles was saying it'll make Kran broken

[granite pebble]

Kran isn't gonna be broken, at the end of the day it's still Kran.

It'll be a stronger tank now but, it's no where near broken.

On a different note, the Vz.55 is gonna be pretty damn good imo

[subtle mica]

Vz 55 will still suck

[granite pebble]

Eh? The only bad thing about the tank is the lower plate, its gaining about 100dpm, slightly better APCR, and a good chunk of more traverse speed.

Like, it's already a balanced tank and it got better

[knotty tiger]

60tp with apcr and the pen is rendered useless in the battlefield it's ok if u put it by ap but apcr with the pen of 252 is not good also the fact how good it is it's gonna fall down real hard even the alpha is good but how u gonna pen with the standard apcr shell with 252 mm which will gonna suck my opinion will said to use ap as a normal shell but keep the pen by 252 mm ofc it's gonna be ok as it is

[stone drum]

Strv wont even have 3.3k dpm after the changes it's going to have the kind of dpm stb-1 currently has. It's safe to say Strv k is dead. They might as well move it down to tier 9 like on pc.

@granite pebble it's getting like 3278 dpm lol ontop of everything else getting dpm & mobility buffs. Then they nerfed it's mobility. Not to mention strv doesn't run double food it runs only big food.

[granite pebble]

Except it will, it's going to have 3296, which is 100 more than current STB-1, while still having 2500hp, while still being a heavium, and while getting better gun handling.

The tank won't be end all comp meta but it's not going to be weak either lol

[knotty tiger]

Stb is like better with both ap and premium ap

[granite pebble]

I wasn't counting double food, I was counting rammer and big food which is an 11.4% buff to reload speed. It's going to be basically on par with Carro in terms of mobility while having 2500hp lmao

If you say Strv is gonna be weak then Carro is also going to be weak considering they're going to be as mobile as each other while Strv has a whopping 600hp advantage.

[twin egret]

It's still possible, you just gotta know your arcs and etc., But yeah, you need to have enough space to your sides now

[stone drum]

Strv doesn't have the ability to burst out 1500 damage lol.

Your also forgetting t95e6 exsists. Basically every heavium will be a worse t95e6 after this, lol.
Actually why play any heavium over the ugly t95e6 at this point?

[granite pebble]

Gun handling, E6 still has .18/18/.08, and the Concept and Strv will have better than that while having comparable dpm, Concept will still have better armor, the Amx may end up being a heavium so that's going to be fun.

And carro is going to be throwing out 760 if they want to maximize their dpm

[neat frigate]

vz 55. worth grinding 1mil xp now?

[knotty tiger]

Chief mk6 will have ap as standard and reactive armour consumable gets added which is better at least

[winter dagger]

If they didn't not Nerf the tvp I would've just spammed that crap and made everybody's day bad. The strv k is the best comp tank currently but some comp players don't like that like a certain droodles on blitz who says it is basically the highest performing tier heavy currently. Unfortunately the kran will be the new toxic tank of tier Ten, but the worse round of changes BY TEN MILES, was the British changes... KILLED THREE TANKS COMPLETELY

[granite pebble]

I mean the tier 8 and 9 are both really good tanks, and the Vz55 is better now even though it was a balanced tank before.

So yeah id say so

[strange roost]

time to grind credits to rebuy Vz

[keen dew]

kran isnt gonna be toxic at all
nor broken

[main tulip]

I'm more disappointed when they don't make changes that they should (minotauro rework, medium buffs), rather than make changes that they shouldn't (british nerfs). Through that, I find this round of changes to be by far and away the worst

[winter dagger]

By that metric then yes these are the worse in terms of potential, but that doesn't mean some other changes can get off for free. There was too many misses with these changes and it would've been better to buff and Nerf the ones that needed them INSTEAD of ALL TIER TEN which I find whack and @keen dew the kran has 2.5 sec intra-clip, impennable turret, 9 degrees of gun depression, dumb accuracy with consumable and goes 39 km forward and 30 km backwards (backwards part is very likely wrong because I don't memorize stats) with super speed boost, so if you don't think having a menace of a hulldown tank won't be toxic then I won't know what is because if a kran is holding a hill, good luck...

[main tulip]

Kran should've received a massive hull armor nerf and a DPM buff when firing only the first shell, as opposed to the intra clip buff which is exactly the opposite of what we needed

[twilit crystal]

meanwhile emil 2 is still stuck with a turret that tier 8 gold with CS pens on flat ground

[winter dagger]

We don't talk bout Dat... 🥲

[main tulip]

you mean a turret so bad that it's labeled as a tier 8 turret

[vagrant zephyr]

the bigger issue is the bad pen combined with the fact that APCR loses a ridiculous amount of pen over distance, if I calculated correctly at 50m away from a target you're already down about 15mms of penetration.

[knotty tiger]

I have to agree to that point

[torpid zephyr]

NICE CHANGES WARGAMING FINNALY

[fringe quest]

Let’s talk about the fact in the carro changes, (owner myself) is that it says the the turret is getting “slightly” improved while in reality it’s still gonna be paper to pen by any tank, and taking to the fact it’s losing mobility over a small Armor buff is stupid to me, it shouldn’t been touched in the First place and it’s is fine as it is rn in my opinion

[polar minnow]

They should give 60TP like 700 average damage on normal shells and remove tungsten consumable.

[winter dagger]

And nobody shall know what the e100 looks like anymore

[clear shuttle]

removing tungsten off of the tank that introduced tungsten 💀

[burnt venture]

I mean they removed ret cal off of the tank which introduced ret cal into the game (4005)

[atomic geode]

Totally agree, after the Combat Stablilization AND DPM Buff - you can safely run Calibrated shells for that 374mm HEAT pen on T95e6 - and the gun handling is much better when you are in position. @granite pebble T95E6 will be FAR better than AMX M4 1954 - that tank has worse gun handling than the T95E6 by a LOT and no Stabilization- so it will be trash as a Heavium, especially given its GIGANTIC size and 80mm turret and 100mm hull sides - the tank is good as it is but WG is ruining it - nothing good is coming for 1954. Still cannot belive it is losing Premium AP for HEAT - at only 300-310mm base too. STB-1 and Batchat 25t and Kranvagn are the tanks to get after this patch, and maybe VK 90 and T95e6 and Mk.6. Once I run out of gold, I am done buying if WG is gonna ruin a tank I paid 25k for just a month or so ago - taking literally EVERY reason I bought it and eitehr ruining it (alpha and Tungsten) or nerfing it such that it loses identity. 1954 is good, but not over performing - the hull CAN be penned by premium from other heavies on flat, and the lower plate is an easy AP pen. The entire side of turret and hull can be penned by tier 5s

[polar minnow]

Most of the German line is getting tungsten, so what's the use anymore, Wargaming has ruined most good tanks with the changes.

[atomic geode]

1954 is 💀 after this patch

[winter dagger]

Let them smoke that zaza wg do be high

[verbal igloo]

Lets not nerf the tvp AND make the kran op nice 1 wargaming

[burnt venture]

Superconsumables shouldn't even be a thing. They overcomplicate balancing, randomize gameplay, and in general result in a worse gameplay experience all because players love hitting a button to make their tank better without the need for any skill

[atomic geode]

Kran and STB-1, STB-1 is already one of the highest performing mediums. And TVP IS getting a nerf, we dont know how much on the accuracy tho

[polar minnow]

Rip 50B, going to be a HESH target more than the 4005

[twin egret]

It always was a HESH target, what are you on lol, even more than the fv4005

[winter dagger]

Prems/enriched tanks they didn't touch hard, so just gonna let you know, they just have a vendetta against collectors

[lethal blaze]

Bottom line: wg dosnt know a single thing about what they’re doing

[polar minnow]

Yeah, but this change, it's lost even more Armour, but let's just agree that WG is dumb asf when balancing tanks.

[unique scaffold]

Will progetto be any good after the changes?

[twin egret]

? E6 got some great changes, 30B practically got better, Badger is basically more broken than before

[granite pebble]

The AMX is still keeping it's god tier turret and we don't even know how much the hull is getting nerfed by, not only that but let's not forget the E6 has completely unreliable armor and a massive cupola on top of that as well as a 15km reverse speed.

The E6 is going to be strong without a doubt but it's still extremely squishy regardless.

And no the AMX doesn't have worse gun handling by "A LOT" it has .2/.2/.1 vs the E6's .18/.18/.08 which is slightly worse gun handling. If anything the E6 has awful gun handling when you compare it to all the other tanks with similar alpha.

[wooden lynx]

It will have 2900 dpm as a single shot and 3600 effective dpm after dumping the clip and shooting as a single shot

[atomic geode]

Its a LOT worse! I own and have played BOTH< and the E6 is miles better - cause it has a base accuracy of 0.326 while M4 1954 has 0.362, and the aimtime is MUCH worse - also M4 has hatches taht are really easy to pen, too - easier than E6 and the side is easier to pen as well, 3x taller and fatter

[unique scaffold]

Progetto may finally be viable. (:

[burnt venture]

Prog will still have horrible gun handling, and it's getting a nerf to turret armor and HP and pen

[main tulip]

yeah, but not in the way I want it to

[austere citrus]

so kranvagn is getting big ass buff

vz 55 still boring af

tvp op

[granite pebble]

"the hatches are easier to pen" it has a single rear mounted cupola that is not able to be shot at all when it uses it's gun depression and has a turret that is borderline impenetrable. The AMX can literally sit hull down without having to worry about a single thing in the game penning it while the E6 has to play peekaboo.

[atomic geode]

Lmao, not worry about a single thing? The upper plate can be penned with premium - if that is covered, well you have your 100mm gigantic side hull, easy track wheel pen, corner armor spot, and 80mm even BIGGER turret side to worry about, I mean have you ever flanked? If you think 1954 is OP you must hate Kran far more. I don''t think you have played 1954 if you think it is so strong, I mean even in comp they get nuked

[twilit crystal]

anyone find it ironic that most german heavies get tungsten when germany was facing a tungsten shortage

[fringe quest]

Yes the inter clip is gonna be shorter now with improved mobility

[scenic olive]

I think they are just nerfing the front of the hull so u can’t bait shots as well or maybe at all after the update, idk why though

[willow elbow]

I don’t think any of those heavies were in serial production anyways

[granite pebble]

This is how I know youre a smooth brain, I never said the AMX was OP, I said it has a borderline impenetrable turret which is a fact

"But the side armor" what about the fact that the E6 doesn't have any usable armor in any situation aside from people that take rushed shots at it.

Not only that but you have NO IDEA how much they're nerfing the armor on the AMX, the upper plate could get nerfed by 10mm and guess what? That still means mediums and most other heavies struggle HELLA to pen you when you're hull down and using your gun depression.

[rancid garnet]

Like first im sorry but if you are in a position where you are getting tracked multiple times by a clipper skill issue.
You know how people say tvp is "op" by just having 4.5 intra for 1.2k ye this is even worse than that this can go 1v1 against preatty much any med or light and win by just raw dpm alone

[atomic geode]

Lmao, calling me smoothbrain - you INSINUATE the AMX M4 1954 has no weakness "Just go hull down and not worry about anything" that is smooth brain my friend. Also T95e6 is TINY! Its sides BARELY exist, therefore BETTER - Turret is much smaller and better armored, 120mm sides not 80mm - also I NEVER said I was against the Armor nerf you simpleton, just pointed out it can be penned unlike Kran Turret. If all WG did was take 10-20mm off the frontal hull and turret, I would NOT be complaining, it HAD enough else going for it. Also T95e6 side pofile is smaller than E50M

[rancid garnet]

Also idk why people rected wz since that thing has only 4.3k dpm with both tungsten and adrenaline active

[atomic geode]

Which WZ? I didnt know any of them got tungsten (other than now the WZ-121) Also, only 4.3k DPM? Thta is higher than TDs at tier 10 - that would be nuts

[rancid garnet]

Ye it was the calc for 121.
4.3k would be good if kpz wouldnt get 5.1k with that combination

[velvet beacon]

Tbf the E100 has smaller side armour then the E50M…

Also, kran getting absolutely busted mobility is great, id lose pen for that deffo

[atomic geode]

Yeah I saw that post, KPZ 50T is gonna sell a LOT of BS loots boxes for WG... I'm out after I finish spending the ~40k gold I have left, got burned too bad 25k for a tank I would never have bought knowing what is happening (AMX M4 54). WZ-121 will be interesting tho - lol I wondered why you said "Only 4.3k" DPM. Also prolly would not have gotten Minotauro if I knew it was gonna be even slower still... A LOT of disappointment with a little good

[atomic geode]

Kran as it is already angers me. Like WTF there is NOWHERE to pen that turret - on FLAT ground - like even 374 HEAT it is all red, give it a tiny amound of elevation and not even TD prem can touch that turret which makes up the bulk of that tank (in the case of Minotauro 374 HEAT is the premium - with cali ofc) @granite pebble I made you my simp apparently - alot that turret got LOTS of weakness my simp, frontally there are the hatches if on flat or close to level, if not the sides are massive and 80mm thin, Concept 1B turret is much better in nearly every way

[granite pebble]

No, i said the TURRET has no weaknesses, Jesus Christ my guy, READ

[hollow acorn]

Man I was hoping they would nerf the armor of the 60tp. It has such troll frontal armor. I’m sick and tired or bouncing the lower plate, even with premium shells. I find it ridiculous how they didn’t touch the armor.

On a side note: A moment of silence for all who purchased the Carro 45t rip ☠️

[atomic geode]

@hollow acorn 60TP is cringe strong, you either load prem on the hull, or aim for that 1mm thick bar of a lower plate (lower plate is like razor thin target is what I mean) - dont get me started on THAT turret! VindicatorSimp would go crazy with how strong it is

[nimble zodiac]

60TP relies primarily on auto-ricochet angles, and the only way to nerf its effectiveness would be to bring it down, like lower than 40mm

Carro 45t doesn't seem to be getting any bad nerf, the turret will be more reliable, and the speed wasn't that bad in the first place. The gun is untouched, and that's what the players want (right?)

[icy linden]

How good is the buff proggeto received?

[atomic geode]

What do you mean? The only spot on the 60TP I can see that isnt at least 120mm thick - therefore relying on angled armor - are those SMALL 70mm thick plates below the turret. 60TP is thicc everywhere else, especially turret. Those 70mm plates are like 280-400+ effective from most normal angles, other than side ofc. I am sure it gets a lot of auto richochets, but it definitely has some thickness that could be trimmed

[nimble zodiac]

I suppose it's up to the angle you fight it at, but the upper plate is around 70 degrees angled, which results in many ricochets, though it remains effective against standard AP and APCR shells below this angle. I find the ricochet to be likely due to 60TP players often angling (when they don't need to, lol). The plate below the lower plate, resulting in its relatively small size, is also autoricochet, and NEEDS to be autoricochet to work

[stone drum]

.2/.2/.1 is worse than IS-7 lol and is significantly worse than .18/.18/.08, however it doesn't feel amazing because e6 is so fast.

@velvet beacon 34kph top speed isn't "busted", that's just slightly below average heavy mobility.

[stone drum]

It's sad how WG trashed strv K & WZ-113, but left Obj 777 alone, now even stronger in it's teir since the other two dpm heavies lost about 200 dpm each.

[granite pebble]

Its only worse than the IS-7 in regards to turret traverse, and yeah the E6's is pretty meh because of that speed and constant need to move, which the AMX most likely still will not need to do due to the turret not being nerfed at all

[junior sparrow]

WG wants that the players grind every tank, and not like some dudes playing 10 K matches with 1 tank

[stone drum]

The turret it probably getting nerfed, they didn't specify where on the front it's getting nerfed, only that the front is getting nerfed.

@atomic geode what are you talking about? VindicatorSimp is good friend of mine, atleast in my eyes.

[atomic geode]

Yeah, I think he knows we got him on every talking point the man has

[knotty tiger]

Result is kinda the opposite

[granite pebble]

Well unless they intend on nerfing the front in every regard I'm going to assume they mean the hull since albeit the patch notes are structured strange at times they do tend to specify if they're nerfing the turret or not.

@atomic geode what talking points lmfao
This entire time I've talked about how strong the turret is and yet you proceed to talk about some other weak point that is completely irrelevant to my point. "BUH BUH, SIDE ARMOR" yes and the E5's turret becomes completely useless when you turn the sides, and the armor is bad on the sides, as is the Yoh's yet you don't see people using that as a talking point for the frontal armor. Not only that but you have no clue what they're doing to the armor of the AMX yet you speak on it like you know the exact numbers even though not even the data miners know what the changes are.

Not only that but you fail to realize this is going to be a 2800hp HEAVIUM with reactive.

And have you ever looked at the turret armor on the Amx Mle? Even calibrated HEAT from TD's has a small point of penetration on the front of the turret as it currently stands. The fact that you ignore how insanely armor the front of the AMX's turret is says more about you than you realize.

[atomic geode]

Lmao bruh mad... I only really care about the Alpha nerf, the premium AP going to low pen HEAT, and the removal of Tungsten - it has a strong front, but you act like it is invincible, you can hold from ONE position - its turret is so massive the sides are always visible to someone, it is gigantic unlike any of the othr tanks mentioned - like I said take 10-15mm off the front, whatever, but they ruined it, it will not be strong at all anymore @granite pebble Why TF is this simp still talking about turret armor? The mantlet of most heavies is invicible like the T95E6 face on for example, and they both got cupolas, M4's cupola is weaker, 90% of heavies have turrets taht apart from 1 weakswpot are all but invincible FACE ON

[stone drum]

I personally have no qualms with them removing tungsten, nerfing the penetration, or really nerfing the armour (especially on the sides & turret ) if they had simply retained the AP premium (even with 295mm of pen), 480 alpha, and upper plate I would be unfettered.

[harsh ravine]

Nobody asked for tungsten on the AMX in the first place. Them nerfing the accuracy while adding tungsten and sandbag armor is what led to AMX’s relevance in comp. If they had removed sandbag armor and tungsten shells, instead of adding all of these unnecessary changes, nobody would have a problem with that.

[granite pebble]

Okay so E-100 is bad because it's large and has a massive borderline flat side profile?

@stone drum yeah, I mean if they nuke the hull then the tank is gonna be in bit of a pickle with trying to hull down, but we're going to have to see how bad they hit the hull armor.

@atomic geode Okay let me put it in monke terms for you.

AMX has bit mantlet, big mantlet covers turret face, big mantlet is basically invulnerable, invulnerable means it can sit there without a care in the world meaning it's gun handling basically doesn't matter.
AMX is a hull down monster, more so than any other tank in the game because of how much raw pen you need to even have a SLIVER of pennable area.

The E6 does not have this. The E6 can be penned by basically everything and anything in the game.

[atomic geode]

I am done talking to WG;'s Simping simpleton, the vast majority of people disagree - he doesnt know how to change positions, must be a bot, move 10 deg to the right or left. E6 face on is 400mm+ other than hatch and one cheek, 60TP and Kran are far stronger still

[granite pebble]

Yeah????

[stone drum]

Honestly they should make the mantlet like on pc where it's the penetrable spot of the turret.

@atomic geode he didn't crop the hatches the turret was designed so that the hatches where hidden when hulldown.

[atomic geode]

Lmao he cropped out the hatches to make it LOOK invincible - hes at like -6-8 deg of depression right there I dont care enough to link screen pics, you missed my whole cheek thing too - he is PAST 8 degrees, the tank cannot even shoot at that angle FFS lmao

[nimble zodiac]

It wasn't cropped. It was just captured at such a close range that the enemy POV would be unable to see the hatches from that angle. Here's a more realistic hulldown encounter, 126m away,

[atomic geode]

And on -6 deg you can shoot both hatches, it is hard to keep all enemies 6 to 8 degrees below you, even then one hatch is just BARELY visible at -8 - and those hatches are auto pens that kill the commander, not 229mm thick.. All his "Heavium" Mle 54 crap, its done better by other tanks, ones with accuravccy and 10 degrees, I daresay Mk.6 is a heavium, and once it gets AP that gun will REALLY cook. @granite pebble Dear god, we agreed the turret is nearly invincible, but those hatches are an easy shot for most tanks at most levels - your willful ignorance of repositioning makes you think a turret bigger than an entire tank with 80mm sides is not a problem for a "Heavium" playstyle

[granite pebble]

Dear God this is like willful ignorance at this point

[nimble zodiac]

I find it hard to engage an enemy without needing more gun depression. Mle 54's height often makes it easy to manipulate the gun depression you use the fight the enemy, since most ridges are smooth to drive up to and boost your turret effectiveness. Either way, Mle 54 is still god-tier hulldown

Frankly, I don't know why you talk about side armor at all. If your side is exposed, you're shot there most of the time, and between Mle 54 and E6, you're getting penetrated. Having taller sides is only a problem if you're not using your front to hulldown with (like in the screenshot). I don't see how tall sides would hurt a mobile playstyle by nimble heavy tanks. Both tanks suffer

[mortal falcon]

kran op now but im all for it. thank u wg, love yall <3

[atomic geode]

Sides of AMX are MUCH easier to over expose, both turret and hull because of gigantic size and height, both are HESH magnets, a mobile playstyle would be subject to FV4202 and 183s, let alone Mk.6s and 215bs - if you are moving someone is gonna see your side in any tank, if they see AMX side it is hard to hide, and harder to miss it with any gun. Only reason for T95E6 talk is cause if u want mobile heavium, that is where it's at especially since it will be around 3.1k+ DPM stock, or Mk.6, or STRV K i guess

For mobile playstyle, T95E6 turret over AMX height any day, you can actually hide behind things

[hallow yew]

Ik it's not the thing everyone complained about on the tvp, bit I am so glad the turret armor is getting nerfed

[austere citrus]

obj 263's 4 degrees of gun depression is so bad, BUFF THE TANK

[burnt wasp]

Strv k is getting hammered, mk 6 is powercrept anyways so dun bother

[void siren]

I mean to be fair if you’re using all 10 degrees of depression you kinda deserve to be hard to pen

Why does the cupola have an autoricochet angle

[stone drum]

It's 8° btw.

@void siren no it's just the tremendous size of the turret.

[void siren]

With how the cupolas vanished I thought it was 10 deg

[granite pebble]

Yeah it feels like 10 a lot of the time too tbh, it's just such a unit of a tank that it doesn't need to peak nearly as much to just make it's only reliable weakspot completelu vanish

[winter dagger]

Ok I like AMX good at hulldown but I can't get over the pen nerfs with prem AP to heat tho 😭

[winter dagger]

I mean anymore and the gun will clip through the tonk

[austere citrus]

i know, thats why i said buff the tank, doesnt need to be gun depression

[atomic geode]

And the alpha, and the Tungsten. I hate Reactive, it is such a dumb consumable, oh yeah get into a position where ppl can hammer you and live 30% longer for 20 sec

[granite pebble]

....have you not looked at the coming soon stuff? The tank is getting a lot more armor and is getting 4k DPM

The 263 is gonna be a monster

[austere citrus]

"a lot more armor", thats a lie. what it should get is more dpm

and dont tell me the 4k dpm = op, the tank already has 4k dpm and the tank is trash

give it more speed + power to weight

as well as aim time

[fringe quest]

Unfortunately it’s design can’t make it more

[austere citrus]

i know its apart of the tank, thats why you buff other aspects, give it obj 268v4 terms of armor

its still balanced because the tank only has 460 alpha and very low pramo pen

the pramo pen is only like 300mm and 330mm with calibrated

[fringe quest]

300 is standard AP pen what you mean

[clear shuttle]

i wouldn’t say the strv k is totally hammered

[granite pebble]

That's not a lie at all lmao, the engine deck is no longer able to be overmatched, and the sides are also stronger as well as the super structure.

And no it had 3.8k dpm, now it actually has 4k.

[stone drum]

It really is.

[fallow nimbus]

strv k getting its dpm nerfed is so ridiculous
apparently wargaming wants a medium meta considering how bad the lights are

[keen dew]

if wg wanted a med meta they would buff dpm and mobility, not loose it

[waxen osprey]

I wouldn't mind a medium meta, heavies have been very dominant for a while already.

[fallow nimbus]

most mediums are gaining dpm

[winter dagger]

They are buffing engine and side armor tho, and reload, but keeping the mobility so it's a nightmare for meds

[fallow nimbus]

light tanks are basically not worth playing anymore now

[austere citrus]

wz 121 super underrated

[granite pebble]

Yk I was actually going to defend the Strv K a bit more, but then I remembered a funny little thing.

The concept 1B exists which has better armor, is only slightly slower, has better alpha, most likely will still have better gun handling, base pen, 1 degree more of gun depression, and may end up with comparable or possibly even better dpm.

@fallow nimbus the batchat, sheridan, WZ (maybe) and T100 will all still have their merits in being played, the only light that truly is getting hit insanely hard is the Vickers

Albeit personally I think the WZ should be given 370 alpha, or even 375 with a 7 second reload, improved gun handling, and a better reverse speed

[winter dagger]

You know I feel like leopard will be the most fun tier x med and arguably the most difficult once again

[granite pebble]

I think the 140 might take the cake for most difficult to play, although the -8 degrees on the Leo is going to hurt quite a bit even with the other buffs it has going for it.

It's definitely going to be insane for dealing damage and perma tracking with adren running though.

Running into a Leo without your repair kit up is going to be... Pain.

I will say that even though 10.3 does bring some... "Interesting" decisions into play, it will probably be a lot healthier of a meta since a lot of mediums will be strong, and for their each and own reasons as well.

[winter dagger]

Oof I just realized how many downvotes the grille has, it could fill a football field with the amount of tears from this community💀

[granite pebble]

I think what they should do is, is buff the alpha back up, and remove the spall liner since the community is so distraught over the alpha.

Wonder how distraught they'd be over spall liner being gone

[cedar socket]

i hate what they are doing to the strv, tho most of the changes make them look mentally deficient

[winter dagger]

Not mentally deficient but it feels like they on the Columbian powder

[cedar socket]

i think that they shouldnt nerf the christmas tanks with the price tag they came with

[granite pebble]

I think they should've gave it a bit more than they did as compensation instead of just nerfing the DPM, armor, and taking away the super engine boost just to give it better gun handling.

It needs more mobility, because from what it seems like, they dont want it to have any usable armor; so as a result it deserves to have better mobility at base.

I say it should have current 260's hp/t stats

[main tulip]

Should also give it 10 degrees of gun depression

[granite pebble]

I will say that something I think they should've done with the Vz is increase the reverse speed to 15, the fact they chose 13 even though the mechanic is up to 15km/h is... funny but not in a good way.

@main tulip and yeah, 10 degrees would be great, especially with the complete lack of armor it'll most likely have

[nimble zodiac]

The real deal would be giving it to french tanks, so they can maintain accuracy when they back out 😂

[winter dagger]

maybe 14 but 13 feels too slow

[stone drum]

They seriously could have just nerfed the strv k alpha to 340 & Buffed the reload to keep the dpm the same + remove sandbags and it really would have been fine.

[ornate warren]

imo Spall liner should be either nerfed to the ground or removed completely since it both harms the gameplay of the tank in indirect ways and limits most of the possible changes that can be made to the tank

[granite pebble]

Honestly.

Grille would be fine with a really strong gun if it got obliterated when it was spotted. But nahhh gotta make sure it cant get obliterated or have a strong gun either, who needs skill based TD's anyways?

[clear shuttle]

people will be begging for better camo if they remove spall from the grille

[ornate warren]

Yup, but Still would be better scenario than the current scenario tbh

[austere citrus]

whats the point of using the obj 263?

new tier 10 td has 4k dpm with a better turret and like 10 degrees of gun depression or smth

apparetnly it has like a 300mm turret

whats the point bruh

[small crane]

Europe is the region with the most possitive feedback
60TP will be interesting icl
Kranvagn should be more enjoyable

[kind bear]

that about how wg ruining them mm self... this game gaing suck tbh...

[icy monolith]

Don't ruin my favorite tank please, 263 is amazing just leave it be, it's like the one good thing I have left

[solid sequoia]

263 currently sucks and it getting a much needed buff

[quiet knot]

I don't see the need to worsen the loading time of the E100 tanks, I think it just makes them very difficult to use compared to other tanks with the 15cm gun.

[granite pebble]

Because its getting 680 alpha ???

[keen dew]

did you not see its alpha go to 680

[quiet knot]

My personal opinion is that I wondered if the 40 Alpha damage increase was worth the 1.5s longer loading time.(Sorry if this is hard to understand, I'm translating by machine.)

[stone drum]

Imagine grille with 60kph top speed and 3.6k dpm, lol.

[granite pebble]

I mean their goal was essentially to make the E-100 be a lot more heavy into trading rather than outright raw damage output. No other heavy wins a trade with an E-100, so an E-100 that isn't overly pushed up is going to be a lot more dangerous than it was before even though it has less DPM.

[teal palm]

From the few pics i have seen
The new TD is not very fast and has extremely mid hull armour

[half sinew]

The rear box its pretty big

[marsh belfry]

the point is you dont have to spend money on 263

[formal creek]

Is the thumbs down broken 💀 cuz I can't use it. It's like I click it and then it undoes what I emote

[final warren]

What new TD?

[teal palm]

XM66F I think is the name

[unique scaffold]

Hopefully wargaming put another gun LT-432, reload similar M41 90 bulldog but 225 alpha damage and 7 degrees depression, for example wargaming put great gun KV-5, IS-6, Jadtiger 8,8cm.. Hopefully wargaming... thanks!

[winter dagger]

I saw in game before, it seemed like E4 levels of slow, but its still in testing so yea

[teal palm]

Honestly the LT 432 is fine as is, it’s got enough good to make up for the meh depression

[stone drum]

It would be nice if WG would consider changing strv k reload nerf from .39 to .19 so the tank doesn't become completely irrelevant.

[burnt venture]

• less armor
• less mobility
• less DPM
• already has no alpha advantage
• gun stabilization getting better doesn't really matter when you get stab mechanic

I mean this is just about the worst way they could've went about this. WG severely overestimates the actual value of gun handling on gameplay. How many tanks have we seen this rework get a crucial part of their tank shafted just for some gun handling?

[stone drum]

Too many.

It's likely why WG thinks it's ok to shaft mediums handling too.

[burnt venture]

No tank ever has been too overpowered because of the gun handling being too good. That's legit never the single cause of a tank being overcooked.

[proud abyss]

Which tank?

[remote oriole]

183 and I would argue the T57 Heavy and TVP as well

[burnt venture]

T57 and TVP never had an issue with the gun handling. It was always the insanely low clip times. T57's gun handling is basically the same since it came out.

183's gun handling also wouldn't be an issue if it didn't have the armor or any of the mobility buffs it got along with the gun handling buff (which was unecessary in the first place)

Gun handling should legit be the last thing to be nerfed on stronger tanks and the first thing to be buffed on weaker tanks. Nerfing gun handling does nothing to make problematic tanks less problematic, and it makes weak tanks instantly better without any remote possibility of making it broken. It's never at the forefront of a balancing issue, yet WG continue to hit tanks with gun handling changes.

[void siren]

The entire point was to shaft the tank - the changes did their job

[burnt venture]

there's adequate nerfs and then there's making the tank pretty pointless. Especially when they could've done something to change the tank.

But since we aren't going to fix heavy meta while upping medium DPM again, Strv K just dies

[remote oriole]

My point is that gunhandling can contribute to making a tank op

[burnt venture]

but it's not a defining factor

If gun handling is "too good" then decreasing other parameters can balance that out very easily.

If gun handling is not good enough, then buffing gun handling improves the way an underperforming tank plays without any possibility of making it broken.

All nerfs to gun handling, however, don't work in the opposite way. It just makes gameplay more random and frustrating for both sides in an engagement

[granite pebble]

It doesn't help that the Concept 1B exists and got its dpm buffed while already having amazing gun handling, usable armor, and decent mobility. The Strv K has literally no place in the game currently as it has absolutely no niche use that isn't done better by another tank.

[burnt venture]

I already said this before, Strv K is a relatively sensitive tank to any balancing. It was not well received by the common community and pretty much only sees play due to good players and competitive.

You nerf it in the wrong way and it just instantly dies as a tank because you've now kicked out the current playerbase (good players) and then also completely made the tank unattractive to average players. Another premium doomed to 1200 XP ace bar on NA lol

[granite pebble]

Not only that but the Strv K got nuked and the 777 essentially only got buffed to an aspect of the tank that kept it from outright being a better Obj 260

[remote oriole]

Nerfs to gun handling are one of the very few ways to discourage players from using a tank at long range, or to dump a clip very quickly at medium range. I think it‘s a valid tool for balancing and should be applied a lot more than it is.

In my opinion, heavies should be wildly inaccurate

[main tulip]

Arguably the sheridan missiles were a case of gun handling being too good

[burnt venture]

Right. That's why we needed Maus gun nerfs. Clearly that was the issue with Maus.

Heavy tanks being insanely inaccurate don't solve any of the problems with their armor, HP, or speed. It just makes it even more dumb when random players get lucky shots in, while the average experience of heavy tank gameplay just becomes "be lucky enough to hit this 2 pixel tall weakspot". Especially when heavy tanks make up almost all tanks in competitive play.

Nerfing gun handling just means discouraging pushing, discouraging movement, and more static gameplay.

The entire problem was clearly brought to a head in 60TP/IS-7 meta. Nobody likes RNG-based metas where the dominant tanks are all RNG fiestas with weak ammoracks and .4 dispersion, but then go 40, 50kph and have weakspots the size of peanuts which are a dice roll even with accurate guns.

Imagine how much more pleasant E100, 60TP, Minotauro, etc. would be to play with slightly better gun handling, if they weren't given a stupid amount of handholding with superconsumables, armor, or mobility on top of the HP gain.

[knotty tiger]

Well since 60tp will get apcr and bad pen it will change the whole thing about the 60tp and it will be considered a free hp tank cause apcr is worse than that I always still prefer ap than apcr all day long

[remote oriole]

I disagree. Had heavies poor accuracy and a few other factors (for example poor viewrange), then they would stop occupying the niches of accurate and spotter tanks, which in turn could be given to more fitting tanks.

Not hitting every shot is a fair trade off for not getting penetrated by every shot. And I would argue that weakspots only got smaller because all tanks are fairly accurate. Were the average a lot more inaccurate than it is now, then tanks could afford larger weakspots again which would only benefit tanks that are actually meant to be accurate.

I don‘t see why a nerf to gun handling would discourage pushing or movement. High accuracy (and especially high alpha) encourages sniper gameplay, or the capture of positions overlooking the entire map. In both cases you take a position and mostly stop moving. Low accuracy softly forces players to get close and personal with the enemy team.

The issue is not inaccuracy, but accuracy. Heavies should pay for their advantages, and all tanks should have sizeable weakspots that not every heavy can reliably penetrate - in turn, well armoured tanks get hp to compensate against accurate tanks

[mortal falcon]

StrvK nerfs were necessary and good. Maybe not the DPM.

[granite pebble]

They weren't necessary when the meta that the Strv K is going into would eat it alive even in its current state.

If the Strv K was the only heavium in the game and not a single medium got buffed then the Strv changes would be fine, however that's not what happened.

Every single choice of mobile heavy tank, including the Amx Mle is an outright superior choice.

[queen geyser]

A Tank needs gunhandling to react quick on situations, there is one point where gunhandling makes no diffrence, when u sit still at your sniping positions, looking unspotted at targets that will peak out, bad gunhandling mainly Hurts frontline players while snipers dont rly care to much, since u often have plently of time to aim since the enemy dosnt see u

[twilit crystal]

Ly
Buy

U 99
Y

[stone drum]

They really weren't, the issue around it was being fixed.

@mortal falcon I have the tank and I have played it quite abit, its not the overpowered monster people claim it is. Infact I remember my first encounter with one (Fatness), it came off as incredibly weak.

[mortal falcon]

What are you smoking dude, if you cant pen something with 341-374 heat then you’re either really bad or it’s not supposed to be penned. HP is not how you “balance” a disparity in accuracy, penetration is how WG does it.

Excessive HP negates DPM advantages because it increases the time-to-kill. It also makes tanks more forgiving due to ability to survive mistakes, endure more punishment.

@granite pebble @stone drum I think you underestimate just how overpowered the StrvK is. Tank will be fine tbh.

[main tulip]

Strv K isn't even overpowered, it's just the best at its niche which only exists because mediums are underpowered

[mortal falcon]

StrvK underperforms in the hands of a bad player and overperforms in a good player’s hands. And fatness is doing quite well in the strv so… 🤷‍♂️

@main tulip huge L take, easily disproven by performance statistics and usage in comp

[granite pebble]

The tank was only over powered because mediums in general were weak compared to their heavy counterparts. Now even something like the 30B is a formidable medium tank in 10.3 just because of the fact that it's going to have a laser pointer of a gun with 10 degrees of gun depression, 3.6k dpm and literal light tank mobility.

Strv K has uh... Okayish gun handling, meh mobility, no armor, and now middle ground DPM for a heavium.

[queen geyser]

I would say the Strv K was overpowered because I would have taking it similar to other heaviums over other tanks any time, if thats not "overpowered" then what is

(I btw also think E6 is atm maybe a bit too good but at least the tank model of that thing is Garbage)

[stone drum]

It will be fine with t95e6 being outright faster, having the same mechanic, having more alpha & penetration, more dpm, similar accuracy, and similar armour?

@mortal falcon oh the first time I faced him in strv k it was still in testing and it was like 3:00 am.

[main tulip]

I guess I agree that if it is better than the rest it is overpowered, but what I'm trying to say that it wasn't overcooked, as the Strv really does not feel exceptional in any way, in the same sense that a TVP does. A blanket buff to mediums would've solved the issue of it being the comp meta/high winrate tank.

[queen geyser]

I would also rather buff other tanks but ig Wg wants nerfs, so I take ir

[mortal falcon]

Testing StrvK was absolute garbage. Completely different vehicle from now.

As for T95E6: armor is worse. Cupola moment. Other than that, of comparable performance (much less HP due to lack of sandbags).

I think people are just angry their ~$100 tank no longer can literally stomp everything else.

@granite pebble @main tulip Fundamentally, heavies are better than mediums because of prevalence of egregious armor (necessitating ~340 HEAT). Also, heavies have much more HP for minimal mobility tradeoff at times. 320 HEAT or global mt HP buff would solve this disparity.

But a nerf is good enough for now.

[burnt venture]

Strv K's only offense was that it was classified as a heavy tank, which basically meant it turned out to be a Patton with a 400 HP advantage. That's basically the only thing it had that caused it to overperform because good players can just kill mediums no issue.

This is an overnerf which causes other tanks to basically shadow it completely

[remote oriole]

Recently, yes, but before we had a long history of buffs to dispersion and dispersion factors. And despite more recent nerfs, all tier ten tanks still remain accurate, especially at the battle distances in Blitz and especially the mediums.

I am not defending anything beyond my viewpoint that some tanks deserve to be inaccurate, especially heavies. Rather, I present small weakspots as the logical consequences of ever more accurate guns.

Having your aim not rewarded is not the worst part of the game. It‘s equivalent to having your damage reduced because someone activated a special consumable, or not blowing up someone‘s ammorack. While you could make all tanks perfectly accurate, I don‘t think it will add to the game. Yes sure, tryharders would be rewarded more, but it takes a random aspect, something out of the hands of players, away. Something that, in my opinion, makes the game more exciting and unpredictable.

I also ask you not to use quotation marks when you don‘t actually quote. I did not say it prevents sniping. It merely discourages sniping due to lower performance and higher frustration. And honestly, people who play heavies get so much comfort, so I could hardly care about their gameplay getting worsened

[stone drum]

Remember strv k is getting a turret armour nerf.

Also it funny you want strv k nerfed so bad, yet are completely fine Kranvagn is getting a massive buff, to the point Kranvagn will literally entirely displace T57 heavy into irrelevance.

@glad cove
Kranvagn will be
-faster
-have more armour
-have 2.5s intraclip
-have decent accuracy
-have a flexible autoreloader
-have a hp advantage

@glad cove it will literally have almost the same exposure time, except Kranvagn will be basically invincible in that time.

[glad cove]

T57 has shell reload boost and as well faster overall clip reload time so it's not worse or more irrelevant than kran
@stone drum t57 heavy is simply more about exposure time so that hp and armor aren't a problem like tvp

[queen geyser]

In my opinion Kran is a slow, nothing hiting boat with bad dpm, not sure if those changes help that especially that they increase the aimtime, probably the changes make the tank more frustrating to play against but not better to play with

[main tulip]

that's not a "fundamental" reason why heavies are better - the difference in HP is an arbitary one that was made up by WG, that can be removed with extreme ease.

A fundamental issue would be something that is much more difficult to tackle, such as the prevalence of tanks like 183 and grille in pubs

[thorny timber]

That would essentially make kran a fast hitter with the lower intra,that's actually very fast burst in a short time for an Autoreloader

[glad cove]

Shell reload boost

[stone drum]

You say that like shell reload boost is permanently active, that alone is not enough to make t57 relevant in this new meta.

You will be able to play kranvagn and do everything t57 currently can and more.

[queen geyser]

Yea and then having no dpm at all, like I said frustrating to play against but bad to play yourself

[remote oriole]

„Aimed within perfect reason“. It‘s equivalent in the sense that all reduce player performance due to something that is out of the player‘s hands. And I would argue that your own gun handling is merely a factor in the interaction with enemy tanks. I think the number 1 factor in your interaction with enemy tanks is actually the enemy tank, with its armour, mobility and of course firepower. Your own accuracy is fairly irrelevant if you only have to hit the enemy to pen, while if you aim for tiny weakspots it grows important. Also it‘s 27% for the ammo

You did not paraphrase what I said, and no, you cannot use quotation marks for paraphrasing. And it‘s also not my point that weakspots get smaller due to accuracy (that was merely a supportive side point). The point is that some tanks should be inaccurate.

I am one of the people who play heavies. And I think a heavy with .4 accuracy and therefore exceptionally strong other stats could make an interesting addition, much like the ultra slow but extremely lethal AT tanks. I don‘t see the point in not using that balance method when it is literally presented on a silver plate

Bad gunhandling is hardly a lottery at short ranges, as the dispersion scales with range. I can imagine what you say, but honestly, that‘s where I see mediums, not heavies

[mortal falcon]

“Fundamental”, as in primary underlying cause… I think we don’t disagree on why this makes them more powerful vs. meds across the board even if you want to argue semantics

[thorny timber]

Yes,but that doesn't mean that kran is essentially bad it's probably one of the few tanks that completely doesn't rely on its bad DPM and relies more on the burst itself,which gets buffed next update and you can still use the turret Armor regardless of worrying anyone about hitting your weakspots with luck,like in a t57

[main tulip]

You're wrong about the word usage but I'll just leave it at that - yes, I do think that meds should get ~100-150 more HP and slightly more pen across the board to help them compete with heavies, and also to further distinguish them from light tanks. I don't think the Strv would see the same amount of dominance that it does now if such a change were made, hence my original comment about it not being overcooked enough to deserve a nerf.

[queen geyser]

No it dosnt mean that the kran is essentially bad but it isnt even bad now, all i said that for me personally the kran is very boring to play and that the update is probably not going to change that since u are basically around 35s without dpm after clipping somebody while kran is nowhere decent and the change will even make that worse (ok ig u have reticle cali to counter that)

[burnt venture]

the Kran changes are dented

Clipping faster on an invincible hulldown tank which is now faster, with a gun nerf that does little to nothing because it has ret cal

[thorny timber]

I mean you can blame it on the autoloaders for having broken values,reloaders are alright in the competitive meta but kinda boring to play IMO.

[remote oriole]

You use them incorrectly and make yourself ridiculous in the process. I don‘t understand why one would do that to oneself

Your assumptions are bewildering to me. Explain to me, where did I say that the accuracy should be compensated with no weakspots? I literally said that I am wishing for the nerf of accuracy to be accompanied by enlarged weakspots. And I never mentioned traverse. With exceptional stats I mean something like the extremely punishing gun of the T57 Heavy, or the incredible alpha of the 183.

Nothing says that tanks with poor accuracy should have no other weakness. Earlier I mentioned view range, which would allow people to fight them unspotted, should they act alone. Mobility (or traverse specifically) could allow better flanking. Weak roof and bottom armour for HEing. Exposed track wheels, bad gun traverse angles, there are literally countless ways to balance tanks. Poor accuracy does not equal op tank

[stone drum]

WG: we nerfed T57
Also WG: since we can't actually balance every tank and will just rotate tanks, we are turning Kranvagn into the new T57 heavy.

[thorny timber]

"A small price to pay for salvation."

• Wg,probably

[remote oriole]

You strawmanning me does not support your position. I am not particularly fond of yoloing, in case you wondered. And the 60TP is not even good at yoloing because of the side armour… also fairly average for a heavy in performance

[burnt venture]

Poor accuracy = an awful-to-play slot machine. Some tanks deserve this like 183, but it should not be a tradeoff for better stats on everything else which is certainly the case with the big-gun heavy tanks and heavy TDs right now. They can have stupid armor, so much traverse that they're uncircle-able, and insane DPM. It's a cancer tank to fight against.

Viewrange nerfs are also a super dented balancing suggestion. Nobody likes being spotted + shot by the same tank and then that tank staying dark. There shouldn't be viewrange nerfs, but rather camo buffs for mediums and lights along with a SLIGHT viewrange buff (300-310m).

Spotting people, and then shooting them and staying unspotted is an even worse suggestion than nerfing gun handling.

[queen geyser]

Actually 183 has on Paper not rly bad gunhandling especially considering the alpha

[remote oriole]

I didn‘t quite make the mental jump where my suggestion of giving some tanks bad accuracy means that all of those tanks should get insane stats for everything else. Your argumentation makes zero sense to me.

Camo buffs lead to the same situation as viewrange nerfs when the camo after shooting is also buffed. So I don‘t see the difference other than one time you are buffing all tanks and the other you are nerfing the tank that is actually the problem.

Also, we literally already have the situation of unspotted shooting with campers, so I don‘t see the point

[mortal falcon]

I’m not straw manning you if I’m demonstrating a concrete example of your balancing “on a silver platter” being complete garbage in practice (60TP). I’m sure you are smart enough to understand the message even through my sarcastic tone. Please acknowledge and engage with flaws presented instead of pinging me with a prime example of a continuum fallacy @remote oriole

[burnt venture]

Unspotted shooting with campers is a completely different case because the campers are not doing the spotting.

Camo buffs are better than viewrange buffs because of precisely that: your camo decreases drastically when shooting. Even the sneakiest light tanks have single digit % camo after firing. This means if you misuse viewrange and fire, you'll get lit. You can still outspot heavy tanks with ease, but if you fire that camo advantage goes away.

The current case of Sheridan (or batchat next update) spotting, doing damage, and still staying dark is ridiculous, especially because that safety zone is insanely huge compared to other tanks. These tanks can be 300+m away and spot targets, and shoot them from stealth simply because of their viewrange.

Also, having more than 310m viewrange starts to break maps. These tanks with 320m+ viewrange can just sit in TD positions and start using those as spotting + damage positions. As strong as heavy tanks are, it's ridiculous to suggest that they be blind.

Accuracy nerfs and viewrange nerfs do literally NOTHING to solve the current issues, while just creating more unpleasant experiences for everybody involved. Why would anybody balance the game like that, is beyond logic

[mortal falcon]

“And I think a heavy with .4 accuracy and therefore exceptionally strong other stats” -you. Emphasis on “therefore”.

Argument presented: accuracy should therefore be directly, negatively correlated with other performance metrics of a vehicle. As the word “therefore” directly implies causation/correlation (accuracy bad = other stats good).

“I didn’t quite make the mental jump”
I’m not sure this is a definitional retreat so much as it is willful ignorance at this point

[stone drum]

Well to be fair, sheridan does just pop a single huge shot and instantly gets behind cover versus batchat actually having to poke & expose itself.

[mortal falcon]

Which is why it is very obnoxious when having highest vr in game

Camo = conditional buff (invisibility only if not firing/moving etc). Viewrange = unconditional buff (if past enemy vr, can never be spotted even if on fire and everything)

[burnt venture]

it won't matter if you don't get spotted lol

that's why high viewrange is so dumb. It takes zero skill to utilize and it's active all the time, unlike camo

[stone drum]

The viewrange buff on batchat was kinda excessive, but imo the current view range is fine, as you have to drop cali & spall liner to get it.

[queen geyser]

Questionable why Bc has spall liner in the first place, next thing they gonna do give spall liner to amx 50b and leo1

[mortal falcon]

stop giving them ideas, leo 1 is on track to get it at this rate along with tungsten

[remote oriole]

Firstly, what you say is untrue because (thanks to their bushes) campers do spot enemies for themselves and can shoot them unspotted (most just don‘t because they disregard the 20 metres rule. Curiously camper positions are by far the best to abuse bush mechanics). Usually they just don‘t because their team spots the enemy before they get into spotting distance.

And the light‘s single digit camo is still higher than the heavies single digit camo while driving (not even shooting), so your whole point doesn‘t even work. It especially doesn‘t work because the maps rarely allow you to kite at the maximum view range; you only have certain shooting channels.

Heavies can avoid open fields on all maps due to the general town-field layout. It would certainly help mediums claim the open fields for themselves, limiting the universal effectiveness of heavies while letting heavies keep their role of breakthrough machines. It would result in a greater diversity, unlike your proposals which would only nerf strengths and reduce all tanks to average mediocrity and similarity

Accuracy and view range nerfs will solve the problems by restricting heavies to a niche, to a certain degree

@mortal falcon Other stats means not every other stat. Everything else you said needs no reply.

[mental haven]

STB-Goat

[queen geyser]

I disagree the most Camper positions dont have any bushes where u can apply the 20m rule simply because how those spots are build terrain wise, or even dont have bushes at all, Highway or castellia for example

(i dont even know if its 20m but u know what I mean when bushes dont fade away anymore and get solid, so they dont "disappear" when shooting)

[mortal falcon]

Stats, plural. Even if we go along with your definitional retreat, changing argument to a singular “stat”, we have the 60TP as a prime example of your ideal heavy. Crazy how that was instantly meta on release…

As for “needs no reply”, thanks for demonstrating your continuous refusal/inability to form coherent, logical arguments. Probably should not have tried to accuse me of straw manning, huh

I won’t wade into your viewrange/camo debate with synx until I have time to read it over. I want to make clear im specifically addressing the “accuracy in exchange for cracked other stats” you proposed, and am arguing why it’s been both 1) tried by wg and 2) terrible overall.

[void siren]

My favorite philosophy is alpha and hp over all
armor is nice too

the strv k has some alpha and some hp. Therefore it is overpowered.
Now it is deadish

[twin egret]

20m is so far ngl, I think WoTb has the longest distance than any other iteration of World of Tanks

[stone drum]

While I'm fairly certain your not primarily referring to them, but certain heavy tanks like Fv215b, AMX 50b, cheiftan mk.6, and other fragile heavies don't need accuracy nerfs, as accuracy is one of the cornerstones of their playstyle.

@void siren uh... strv k has the lowest alpha for a tier X heavy tank?

[remote oriole]

That‘s because I mean stats? But not every stat? English hard?

[queen geyser]

Luckily my E6 can still shredder threw mediums and will get even better now :D

[mortal falcon]

Then define. Regardless, 60TP is not egregious in “every” stat (omg bad side armor!!!) so my point still stands.

English soft.

[void siren]

shrinking view range is one of the most horrendous ways to balance the game - being shot by invisible tanks that remain invisible even after the shot is fired is not the way to have a satisfying game of blitz.

increasing camo is better

shrinking view range and increasing camo are similar ideas but aren't the same.

@queen geyser it has gun handling slightly better than the average tier 8 122mm

[queen geyser]

Isnt 60Tp kinda good or at least okay (for its kind) except the gunhandling which makes the Tank rly great for beginners but better players avoid it and play diffrent Tanks with a more reliable gun

Idk how much it exactly is all i know is that it feels bad and that I play other tanks over it anytime, like S.Conq or E6

Yup I played alot 60Tp in quick or coin tournaments and the gun sometimes is rly frustrating

[mortal falcon]

60TP is still stupidly good. It’s too mobile, still has too much armor, good alpha, etc etc

Most common comp tank of previous metas. Exceptions: current meta of strv/777, and peak type71 (60tp still second most used even in that meta, and like #3 or #4 currently)

For farming, acc can be very annoying. But still busted

[void siren]

it has a bad power to weight ratio, middle of the road speed, and ok traverse

the good armor, the fact the alpha hits like a nuke and the fact its hp is 200 above most of its compatriots is why its busted.
...oh and tungsten too.

the ufp is also at an autobounce angle. nice.

[mental haven]

fixed

[mortal falcon]

No its mobile bc gear oil. 20 reverse on what’s basically a super heavy. HP, alpha, tungsten, armor are as you said.

“Balancing factors”: bad ammo rack, bad accuracy. All rng.

[queen geyser]

Enemy still hits every snap because RNG fun mechanic

[void siren]

improved gunpowder is also a good choice if you don't want too slow shells

speed vs shell speed

@remote oriole the e100 / 60tp ARE the prototypical heavies with low accuracy
They quite literally have the worst accuracy, and have the most exaggerated heavy stats in the game

[remote oriole]

I‘m not sure what you want from me. I‘m not even sure why you believe the 60TP is the prototypical heavy with low accuracy following my argumentation. When I talk of exceptional stats I think of tanks such as the SU-122-54, Jagdtiger, Vickers Light on introduction, Leopard 1, etc. For a heavy with low accuracy I would rather envision something like a Maus, with great (and defeatable) armour but other weaknesses. At least at the moment. Or something like a Badger, high dpm but with a turret. Or a TOG, when it had a relatively larger hp pool. There are countless ways. 60TP is strong not because it has any exceptional stats, but because it is a good package all around. The bad stats are really only mediocre after equipment if you ask me, including accuracy

[queen geyser]

If a unpennable turret and autobounce upper plate with one of the highest alphas in the tanks class isnt exceptional then idk what even is

[mortal falcon]

Skill is negatively correlated with positive RNG outcomes!

@void siren gunpowder is terrible run supercharge if it bothers you.

@remote oriole you literally said “a heavy with .4 dispersion but good other stats” and then you proceed to list off TDs. Plus maus, tog (maus has terrible stats overall currently, literally doesnt fit your description, and tog is overpowered because the gun’s ridiculously good + large hp pool)

Literally 60TP is identical to your initial description and now you’re redefining things more than 10.3, cant engage constructively with you. As miese just said it literally has like best t10 armor with 20 reverse plus good other stats, if thats not exceptional then 95% of t10 belongs in t9

[remote oriole]

You still won‘t be able to spot a tank with high camo, because they also have high camo after shooting. Especially because they can literally just drive back a bit after spotting you, even more so if they have a bush

60TP and E100 would not be what I‘m aiming for though, as both are too strong. And still too accurate if you ask me

@stone drum This is obviously only for tanks made for close quarters, which should be restricted to that

@queen geyser The turret has a small weakspot, the sides are soft, this makes the armour good, strong even, but not exceptional. It doesn‘t have the highest alpha at 600, with many heavies and heavy TDs besting it at 640 and higher

[void siren]

high camo gets significantly reduced after shooting - compared to a view range stat which is fixed relative to your opponent's camo.

accuracy should still be the restricting stat on why a tank cannot engage past point blank - not the fact that the crew are literally blind

unless you want that e100 to crossmap you

the 60tp has the second best hp and alpha combination in the entire game

[stone drum]

60tp looks suspiciously similar to a T-64 in my opinion. It's getting a pretty solid rebalance next update though.

@remote oriole ah I see, I understand. Just heavies are such a massive class sometimes it's difficult to know exactly what someone means when they refer to them.

[remote oriole]

The TDs, Vickers and Leopard were examples of tanks with exceptional stats, not examples of heavies as I would balance them. I got to that later, and obviously they don‘t need to be copies of said tanks. It‘s more about the gameplay. The 60TP is not identical to my initial description because I literally only said bad accuracy. The 0.4 was picked up from Synx, and beyond that it‘s the only number I mentioned. I assure you the 60TP is not the only heavy close to 0.4 dispersion, so no, the 60TP is not exclusively what I described

[twilit crystal]

heavy tanks should be cross mapped. Med should] keep their high view range. Heavies should lose 10 meters view range, and 25% of their mobility and replace camo net with the type 71 equipment

[mortal falcon]

Heavy tds were not in your original description. See what I mean by “its impossible to engage constructively with you”? They also do not fulfill the role as heavies for that matter.

The only heavies with more alpha than 60TP currently are E100, VK72. That sure is a lot! (2 tanks).

“The turret has a small weakspot” so does the kran’s, (that one has 3!) turret on kran and 60tp must be awful

@remote oriole second message response: i regret to inform you that the only other heavy with roughly .4 dispersion is the e100. And I have quoted you verbatim like 3 times now, you said “a heavy with .4 dispersion” blah blah blah would be an interesting addition, im saying the 60tp falls under this and its both not balanced and not interesting/fun.

I mean i guess fun is subjective. Personally, relying on rng to hit small weakspot is frustrating not fun.

[void siren]

Tier X is weird. There isn't enough big alpha heavies there.
Half the heavies should have e100 alpha.

tier 8 supremacy

[queen geyser]

U forgor that the sides are soft, probably the back aswell, horrible tank, well balanced fun to play and to play against

[mortal falcon]

Oh right kran turret is bad because can be penned through rear by tier 1 tanks u right how could i forget. Same with 60tp the turret back has an AMMORACK??? One thats even weaker than the hull ones so literal trash

shame on me tbh i should retire again, im an actual loser

[remote oriole]

I was talking about exceptional stats, 600 alpha is not exceptional at tier ten. And even supposing it is - the 60TP is still not the only thinkable choice of a low accuracy heavy. After all, I am talking about changes and not copying existing tanks. Furthermore, I know for certain at least one person who enjoys playing the 60TP, and that the 60TP performs perfectly average for heavies (balanced? I guess).

The 60TP weakspot is easier to hit than any of the Kranvagn‘s.

I still have no idea why you are so focused on this tank when it is only one possibility out of what I proposed. Remember, I am talking about hypothetical balance changes here. Not existing heavies with 0.4. You limiting the conversation to them is arbitrary on your side and a misinterpretation of my points

[void siren]

the kranvagn has a hull weakspot that is considerably larger than 60tp's "cupola"

People are mainly focused on the 60TP because it is THE optimal heavy for the trading philosophy

the heavy tds lack hp and are thus somewhat irrelevant
badger would be balanced if it actually had a normal heavy slot instead of being a td"

[queen geyser]

When he misinterpretate your points could you maybe sum up what your Point is, for me?

[plucky geyser]

lmao

I can't dislike Strv. K changes 💀

[void siren]

wait a second this is real - you literally can't dislike the strv k changes

that's just a little silly

[austere citrus]

istn strv k now just a medium with more hp but slow

[remote oriole]

My main point is that heavies should receive bad accuracy. Supporting points are that like this you could make weakspots bigger again, that you can make the game more diverse (as tier ten accuracy is fairly closely clustered), that it would discourage sniping with heavies and that it would give mediums an advantage at the medium side (which typically features medium distance engagements)

[mortal falcon]

Or you can make weakspots bigger without making the game more frustrating and Rng-heavy, crazy thought I know

[void siren]

+1
but in order to give a tank reasonably bad accuracy for its caliber, it needs a bigger caliber
I want big gun - tier X have smol gun for hp values

[queen geyser]

Well I dont think worse accuracy will held back any 40% of sniping but i guess it would be even less rewarding

[austere citrus]

the problem with wotb maps is that most engagements are mid/short range, very rarely long range. Long range favors light tanks/mediums/tds while close combat favors heavy. thats why heavies are super meta rn.

in real life mediums and light tanks can move quickly but wotb maps are so small that they are almost useless

[remote oriole]

You can do that, but then we end up with heavies with high skill floors, something WG doesn‘t seem to like. If only tanks you can practically roll over can reliably hit you weakspots at medium range there will be a certain balance without making the armour meaningless if used incorrectly

[plucky geyser]

That's a fake vote! Just like in North Korea!

Where the hell is democracy!!?!?

[solid sequoia]

The votes don’t mean anything lmao

[stone drum]

25% of their mobility? Either your joking or your insane.

25%... 50b & 260 with 37kph top speed, fv215b with 25kph top speed, oh god that would be horrible.

@void siren they said mobility, so I considered all mobility stats. All heavies loosing 25% of their acceleration is a similarly garbage idea that would cripple any mobile heavy.

[void siren]

They mean acceleration

[final warren]

Has someone compared heavy tank mobility from 5 years ago to today? Honestly I feel like heavies today have a 10% buff compared to old ones

[void siren]

The heavy heavies are unchanged - do they seriously have to go slower

[stone drum]

They turn faster, but they have lower top speed & acceleration.

[final warren]

I don't think you read what I wrote.

@stone drum interesting. Not sure which I would rather have tbh. I think I'd rather them have better top speed/acceleration than traverse

[clear shuttle]

remember when the 113 turned like a boat but still had 50kph top speed

[mortal falcon]

Bigger weakspots would make heavies more DIFFICULT to play imo - such changes obviously affect hts more since they are the ones with annoying armor profiles

Armor should also be meaningless if used incorrectly. Doing otherwise panders to idiots and makes tanks obnoxious to fight; just bad game design (rewarding player for doing the wrong thing).

[solid sequoia]

More difficult to play = higher skill floor, not lower

[void siren]

Ignoring the fact that higher skill floor is the correct option for better noob tank, you both know what you’re trying to say so arguing definitions is kinda pointless

[north rover]

Smv and vk 90 enter the chat

[mortal falcon]

Thank you I get these mixed up. Fixed.

[granite pebble]

Neither can I 💀

[glad cove]

It's always been that way it's just a slower medium

[twilit crystal]

I suggested it with giving them all the type 71 equipment of improved suspension. They can either get their mobility or view range . This way meds and lights can either abuse them using camo or cod

[void siren]

Just directly nerf their view range - the tanks that have obnoxious stats will still be annoying, while the tanks that don’t need to turn will keep their view range

[austere citrus]

buf the tl-120

buff its reverse speed, turning time, dispersion, aim time

the tank is actually so bad

[main tulip]

it's not the absolute worst but it's pretty bad, it's basically an M103 with worse pen in exchange for being much smaller. Definitely could use abuff

[unique scaffold]

The nerf of fv215b armor is the most unjustified balance change wg will ever do
The tank's armor is already soft like a paper and everything goes through it's upperplate even meds with regular rounds...

Just what's the point???

[granite pebble]

The tank wouldnt be bad if it had a better top speed

[icy thicket]

I don't understand why Vickers light reduces one-time damage because that's his thing

[abstract tinsel]

Why change the blaze to have 400 damage per shot instead of it being 1060 damage per shoot

[solid sequoia]

Blaze has always had 400 alpha lmao

[austere citrus]

M103 is actually so bad since the turret is weaker than the tier 7 and 8 equivalent

[lethal obsidian]

Hey, where to find balance notes?

[ancient rampart]

#coming-soon

[dry compass]

are the reload values changed in the base form of the tank or in it's maxed out state (double food + rammer/vents)?

[fickle shoal]

[tacit pelican]

It deserves that nerf. Too busted and unfair to other players who don’t have

[mortal falcon]

It's extremely questionable to have expensive, lootbox-gated vehicles be the "definitive meta tank". Also has a chilling effect on comp ($100 barrier to entry)

[stone drum]

It didn't deserve the extent of what it got.

@mortal falcon that doesn't mean ruining the tank without any real compensation for what it lost simply.

@mortal falcon It's literally been doomed to irrelevance.
@mortal falcon yeah it really doomed tank like IS-7, 60tp, and leopard 1 to utter irrelevance... are you even reading what your saying? Also you talk about stomping tier X even though it was never a uniquely overpowered vehicle for pubs in the first place, it was only in Comp where it was problematic, simply because it could fulfill the role of a medium without the hitpoint trade-off.

[mortal falcon]

The tank's not even ruined, it's an average vehicle now. About time.

@stone drum It doomed a good 3/4ths of Tier 10, if not more, to irrelevance. Post nerf, it's still a fine vehicle. Good players will still do fine in it (but not significantly overperform), and bad players will do considerably worse because they're bad. Overall? Balanced. And it's about time it stopped being overpowered.

An overpowered vehicle should not be locked behind expensive crates. If you can't do well in it then don't buy it; if you've already bought it, then you've already had your fun stomping T10. It deserves everything it is getting.

[stone drum]

It will be a "fine vehicle" with no alpha, relatively low dpm for that alpha, no armour, and decent at best mobility.

If they simply removed super-speed boost and sandbags their would have never been an issue with it.
Literally cheiftan mk.6 will be better than it after this.

[granite pebble]

Yeah idk man, I still can't downvote it

[tacit pelican]

Kid, You don’t understand

[willow hawk]

Why spend $300-$400 on a tank so highly coveted during blitz fair…just to get it nerfed later on?

Answer: Don’t spend money on Blitz. Or, stop spending money on Blitz.
Ngl, reality is, WG still owns the copy of the tank sold to you. They have power to make any balance changes to the tank, which you implicitly agreed to via the fine print. You agreed to buy a server copy of a pixel tank, which you have no control over its parameters. You’ve surrendered that power to the devs once you purchased it. They can alter the tank you’ve bought to any way they want, without your consent.

Simply said: you’re getting scammed when you line the pockets of WG with money.

[granite pebble]

The nerfs it got were mainly only relevant in the current meta, in the 10.3 meta the Strv is going to be so far from every single other option it's not even funny.
The only thing i see you lot talk about when defending the severity of its nerfs is how it performs in the current meta. I can't wait to see how much the Concept got it's DPM buffed by and watch you guys still say the Strv is gonna be fine despite the fact it's gonna be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to heaviums and mediums.

[gloomy patio]

good

[stone drum]

I'm sorry, but what are you trying to achieve with that. "Kid" quite droll if I do say so myself.

[jade rock]

WHY WAS PEN ON KRAN REDUCED!
IT WAS ALREADY TRASH PENETRATION!
WHY MAKE IT WORSE!

[subtle hornet]

Mobility and intra-clip buff though

[keen dew]

it has amazing heat pen wdym trash

[ancient rampart]

It has good pen and calibrated is basically free

You’re just stuck with a garbage APCR shell

[fallen spade]

idk man being able to have 18% better crew mastery can be pretty good

[sweet skiff]

it’s not the end of the world. on the plus side the kran got faster and 2.5 intraclip

[fallen spade]

Ill explain myself. Vents adds a 5% to crew mastery. If you want your dpm, aimtime, and other skills to be at their lowest, then Vents certainly help alot. I prefer it to calibrated shells since I play a little more range than most, so aimtime and dispersion matters more than just hoping for that lucky pen

[twilit crystal]

why would u be at range in a kran lol, anyway kran got a pretty big buff overall. Can hit 40 with super speed and much more mboile all around even without it. Sacrifice a moderate amount of pen to be closer to a heavium. Aim time nerf sucks but it can also dump its shells in 5 instead of 6 seconds, pretty useful when you just want to do a pure trade sometimes.

[fallen spade]

Tanks do not exist in a vacuum. Kranvagns dont teleport to hills and remain there for the rest of the game. Also, having better pen is sort of thrown out the window once your only choice is to aim for weakpoints, thats where making sure your shot lands where you want it to is far better than having raw numbers

[clear shuttle]

means you dont understand how good and/or annoying the strv K is in the hands of a good player

[waxen osprey]

Well now the t95e6 will be better than the strvk in every way, except a bit of accuracy. Not complaining tho, I only have the 95e6 between the 2

[stone drum]

oh I'm sorry I dont think à paper heavy with unimpressive dpm will be an amazing tank.

[granite pebble]

62A gained alpha and armor as well.

[nimble zodiac]

Strv K is fine if mediums were actually good

[marsh palm]

I still think some of the changes were pretty pointless, for example, the leopard1, it's fine as it is, it doesn't need a buff to its dpm (although leo mains will love this), this is my opinion you don't have to agree with it

[dry compass]

are the reload values changed in the base form of the tank or in it's maxed out state (double food + rammer/vents)?

[nimble zodiac]

I assume the base

[winter dagger]

It now has 3,978 DPM with rammer and double food... TOO MUCH DPMMMMMM

[burnt venture]

The thing is a lot of people think that mediums getting DPM = no longer bad against heavy tanks, but that's not really true. They're also losing an unreal amount of alpha damage which just means that a lot of mediums are just going to be extremely unfriendly to even decent players.

WG also thinks that somehow nerfing pen is going to make games last longer when they're giving mediums 4k DPM lol

For all intensive purposes, this DPM is going to be used mostly against other mediums. The time to kill for mediums gets drastically lowered as a result. Kpz 50T can just casually kill another medium on the flank in less than 20 seconds.

If anything, we are going to see more and more blowouts as heavy tanks get faster, and the clipper issue still isn't resolved, while mediums become more fragile than ever before with alpha buffs and DPM buffs

Meanwhile 4202 gets a DPM nerf while several tanks around it are getting close to the DPM of 4202 on HESH rounds. Sounds like great balancing

[spice mortar]

Aside of the Tankenstein, which other tanks got the Phantom Crew ability?

[hearty steeple]

None afaik. Tankenstein is the only tank with undead crew

[spice mortar]

@hearty steeple ok, because I got that tank and the ability is useful imo

[stone moon]

Well the Lycan has indestructible internal modules but no phantom crew

[spice mortar]

@stone moon nice, I forgot about that one, and if I'm not mistaken, Dracula has some sort of tracks protection right?

[abstract tinsel]

I remember it said 1060 damage in the overview

[stone moon]

The tracks can be destroyed but they automatically repair in a second. Basically you don’t need to use a repair kit for the tracks because they repair themselves so quickly

[spice mortar]

@stone moon understood, thanks

[spice sun]

nerf action x prove me wrong

[jovial aurora]

why does this channel exist? its not like wg would listen to us anyways..

[willow elbow]

Nerf stb1

[thorny timber]

• funniest alpha for a t8 heavy,goes even lower when using prammo
• weak forehead
• moderately big hatchet,can only be hidden at hulldown

[orchid grove]

Tech tree Caernarvon would need a nerf before the AX, since the tech tree one is better in every way

[stone drum]

Nah, the tech tree one is fine atm.

@solid sequoia tier 8 is inherently broken.

[solid sequoia]

The tech tree one is broken

[twilit crystal]

meanwhile its getting buffed to have 3500 dpm while shooting 300 pen AP rounds.meme tank

[mortal falcon]

3400 on prammo, rammer, 2food 🤓 . General point still stands

[spice sun]

4.6 reload with decent pen and low damage is annoying

[twilit crystal]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1136695291114958978/1144348695530311794/DPM_Changes.png?width=360&height=662 3471

[mortal falcon]

Bless wg

[willow hawk]

Pen nerfs also mean meds will struggle more against armored heavies and TDs.
Pen nerfs actually drops the applied DPM of MTs. The time it takes for MTs to aim for weakspots and risk ricocheting, or the time spent relocating to attempt flanking is lost DPM. And the flanking argument fails now because Heavies and TDs are so fast with traverse now, it’s difficult to flank.

So really, if TL;DR, pen nerf is also a nerf to DPM itself, and jeopardizes team play especially if an MT needs to hold a position for the team.

Flanking is not effective for MTs in the current balancing state

[vestal kayak]

Just spam heat lol, I only bouce 10% of shots with it

[stone drum]

Confident these are accurate?

They seem abit high

[nimble zodiac]

It's with DPM equipment and both food

[final warren]

I know I probably sound like a broken radio by now, but seriously what are these 132-1 changes.

By looking at this, you'd think the 132-1 was OP. Almost 400 DPM nerf (assuming this is accurate) for one of the worst performing tanks in tier X. I don't know how they think a view range buff, an alpha buff (from below avg to avg), and a pen buff (from bad to still bad), are compensation for a huge DPM nerf.

The tanks whole thing is having a dangerous gun. And they got rid of the gun...

The current 132-1 with calibrated will have more dpm and more pen than the new 132-1 with a rammer.

[winter dagger]

Bro tech tree carn better already💀

[mental haven]

there is some mistakes but high dpm ones is true

[twilit crystal]

yeah on second thought it might be a moderate overestiamte by like 50ish dpm, my guess is they looked at reload currently with rammer and food and subtracted the buff. So say 6 to 5 seconds with rammer and food for a 1s buff but if it was 7s base before you wouldn't shave a full second off anymore

[rocky briar]

But... Tech tree... Caern is better.... What?

@spice sun I would edit that message before the mods find it

Then maybe don't sit out in the open, the Action X has small alpha and takes a while to burn you down, when your playing smart AX should never be an issue

Btw replacing letters with symbols won't make the mods not find your words that aren't allowed to be said here

@spice sun crazy idea: Run... Away...

[spice sun]

So how do I counter a charging AX in a medium tank at tier 7

[dry rivet]

If you’re being attacked from the rear by a heavy tank with a peashooter, that sounds like a skill issue, not a balancing issue. If you’re being bullied by an Action X, it’s understandable, but the PBR introduced to AX nerfed the turret armor. It’s better to attack it from higher ground and from farther distance. If you face hug or get close in a smaller tank, you’ll die.

[gleaming apex]

.xrum#0 was muted.

[rocky briar]

Run away and relocate, despite the action X being fairly mobile most tier 7 mediums can get out of there faster than it, once you've relocated use bushes and your mobility to spot the lumbering heavy and sneak attack while unspotted. It won't work 100% of the time but the AX is a pretty easy tank to do it due to its lack of armor and large profile.

That's assuming the scenario is a 1 on 1 at the end of a battle, if you have allies run away and let the action X make the mistake of rushing on to you, then let your teammates farm him, hold position if necessary and if your alpha damage is over 200 all alpha trades will be positive and Should be traded shot to shot rather than just sitting in the open(albeit the HP deficit) .

If your having trouble penning the tank, Generally aim for the lower plate most of the time, if you have a higher pen tier 7 gun you might be able to premium pen the upper plate. If all else fails just shoot the hatch on it's roof, it's only 80mm and impossible to angle due to its size

[stone drum]

It's probably overestimating the new WZ dpm by about 30ish.

@final warren I'm very aware and I agree with you, I'm just saying In addition the dpm will very likely be lower.

[final warren]

That doesn't change my point tho

[abstract tinsel]

Does anybody have a tier 7 damage changes chart?

[fossil copper]

** Controcarro 3 Minotauro: APCR becomes the new base shell type, its velocity is reduced, as well as the engine power. HP count grows to 2000 points; HEAT shell velocity is increased. The real problem if this tank its the Reloud not hp or change the type of shell...**

[abstract tinsel]

What tanks were changed in the damage?

[stuck acorn]

the real problem of the tank is armor, which is not only not that good, but extremely painfull to play against at the same time, gun is okay, no need to change that

[pale oyster]

I hope you mean nerf next update stb1

[final warren]

Did they say there's going to be a testing phase? They may change things

[willow hawk]

10.3…is the testing phase? It’s unlikely they’ll let testers test all the tier 10s before 10.3…

[tacit folio]

Where do we find the European tier 10 changes

[stone drum]

Not necessary.

[hearty elm]

The Obj 263 is getting a buff, while it can easily be rated a top 3 TD atm?

[storm kiln]

Will the STB-1 be broken next update? I wanna hear your guys’ opinions.

Imo, it won’t be broken, but probably really stupid. Having AP prammo that does 320 (only 10 less than standard???), with a quick reload time sounds pretty damn annoying. The STB-1 is probably gonna be meta next update, if it wasn’t already.

[main tulip]

low-loss prammo is kinda broken in a way always, but it won't be OP at all.

[twin egret]

pretty much, yeah, considering AP's normalization, but otherwise no, it's just gonna be a hull down tank that can butter through almost anything really

[storm kiln]

Mhm

[queen geyser]

since it has rather low alpha, I dont think it will be one of the easiest tanks to play and for sure not "broken" since it offers plently of counterplay, after all the STB has to exposive himself mutilple times in a fair reload to do actuall damage

But it will be probably pretty strong, having 3500 DPM with 300 AP Pen is alr pretty strong alone, but the STB is at the same time a pretty good platform on top of that, 11 degress of gundepression, decent gunhandling and armor will make the tank pretty strong in the right hands

[icy pilot]

the reload is fine from what I've seen and heard, just avoid firing the last shell unless necessary

I've seen a ton of people fire the last shell in a brawl

[forest ridge]

The Prammo damage compared to the standard ap is like the ho ri with its prammo doing only 15 less than the sap (pretty sure it has the strongest pen in game), however hori is more balanced

[fathom rain]

Everything is gaining more DPM and autoloaders will use their shells faster. Matches will end 2 minutes after they start. Might as well change the match time from 7 minutes to 3.

[stray turtle]

An Italian fighter tanker would need a nerf

[unique scaffold]

what was the thought process behind this change? It doesnt affect the primary issue (clip)

[nimble zodiac]

"We didn't receive as much flak for a broken autoloader like the TVP for the FV4005, so we won't do anything about the gun itself"

[unique scaffold]

ah, fair enough

[nimble zodiac]

I'm quoting nothing btw, I'm just assuming the thought process :p

[unique scaffold]

pretty accurate though, maybe even spot on xd

[thorny timber]

This is not cut to the chase like the tvp,although it's an ok nerf for people who like to yolo I guess

[quartz snow]

"But we do see the Progetto 65 is doing relatively poorly so we will massively nerf its accuracy even more and dpm and give it a +5 meter view range so its called a ✨ rebalance ✨ instead of a nerf"

[twilit crystal]

Ho ri is more balanced because of 2 things. Firstly 300 ap pen is almost always enough. Secondly the ho ri can rarely Frontline damage farm . Anytime its exposed its almost always going to get penned .

[quartz snow]

i never understand why people called hori op, sure its pen is ridiculous but the tank itself is meh in most situations imo.

[thorny timber]

It almost has the same pen values as the 183 but doesn't even hit as hard as 183 does lmao,yet no one complaints about the 183 needing a rebalance

[humble depot]

Lmao it’s one of the worst right now.

[odd night]

At which rate does the x2 refresh ?

[stone drum]

It's currently considered the worst tier X atm.
Just ask @stuck acorn.

[unborn whale]

when is wg going to add swedish crew voices

[thorny timber]

when pigs start flying.

[acoustic estuary]

When wg will make realistic and accurate looking tank.

[rigid oyster]

Funny how next update is stupid in many ways but I simply don’t care gene have been deleted can play de va anymore

[unborn whale]

how hard can adding crew voices be
like just import the ones from PC and remove some of the effects

Honestly what is wg's thought process behind this entire update
no new crew voices, proceeds to nerf the grille to unplayable, doesn't even decently nerf the op tanks

continues ruining the game

[shrewd hemlock]

Grille is op and it deserved a nerf

[violet island]

it's 20 alpha less and more dpm and mobility for that, the people who are coping about it honestly make wot pc players look like they have functioning brains

[thorny timber]

Just get rid of the spall liner altogether from this game and buff the light armored tanks which are trash without it,the HE will serve almost no purpose if it isn't even used against low armored tanks

[slender latch]

If they remove spall liner they can revert back RHM, WT PzIV and Grille back to its original stats
I miss the WT's 640 alpha and 11sec reload

[violet island]

even without spall liner that would just be broken, just have it in the state after these changes and remove spall liner, I don't understand why people cry when their obviously way to strong tanks are getting nerfed

[unborn whale]

Strongly disagree @shrewd hemlock @violet island
Grille on PC has 750 alpha and is still the worst performing tier X TD (believe me I play PC)
Have you guys seen the grille stats on blitz?
Pretty bad as well. I can't repeat myself how many times that the point of the grille is to play as an ambush sniper. If you can't spank other sniper schnitzels or other tanks, theres no point in playing the tank. by reducing the alpha to 580 and increasing mobility it literally forces the grille to second line or even frontline
combine that with absolutely no armor and you have a recipe for disaster
and then the hori exists
more pen more armor better onmovement dispersion basically same alpha
no more point in playing grille

[violet island]

As I recently talked to one of the wg employees and most likely far outperform you on pc, the grille on pc is fine, the only things that wg could reasonably buff are legit things that >95% of the playerbase would not even notice, just like this 20 alpha nerf now, that a massive part of the blitz playerbase won't notice, including many of the people who downvoted the changes.

[slender latch]

RHM and grille are pretty balanced before but WT is the one that is a bit broken

Also the thing that keeps Grille from being broken is its camo unlike WT with basically has 10° gun dep and can peek without exposing the hull

[pale oyster]

Rate as top 3 worst td

[unborn whale]

yes the grille is fine on pc but its still the worst performing t10 td in the game
same with the grille on blitz but wgs nerfing the alpha again

and when you talk about how 95% of the playerbase won't notice, grille's original 640 alpha to 580 alpha is around a 10% decrease. Thats around the same as a minimum roll originally when the grille had its 640 alpha. the min roll now for 580 alpha is 493. imagine that. 493 alpha for a tX td and thats not noticable???

literally ruining the game
and I wouldn't say that you far outperform me on PC

just wondering by chance, what's your blitzstars?

[violet island]

you won't notice the changes. Also unless your calculator is gravely mistaken, it is still +/-25% so, it's 435 minroll with these changes and 725 maxroll, and even then I would argue it is not noticeable, as most players are just bad at the game and don't use the potential of the tank anyways.
if you really wanna compare and get depressed more at someone showing you that you shouldn't have such a big ego my name is Klobi_1 in Blitz (could have easily found out if you searched even a little bit) you can always send me your pc name if you are so sure I don't outperform you also, if your wot pc acc is also Newbie_134, then I am not gonna question anything you wrote here anymore.
That would literally only make the tank as toxic for the gameplay as before and is directly against the thing that wg is trying to achieve @slender latch

[slender latch]

But all in all if WG couldn't give Grille's reload time back at least compensate it with the 640 alpha while nerfing reload or keeping as is today.

[unborn whale]

You're proving my point more. a 435 minroll and its not noticable?
"most player are bad at the game", "if you really wanna compare and get depressed more at someone showing you that you shouldn't have such a big ego"

I checked your blitzstars and your average tier is 6.25??? You don't even own the grille as a tank so what qualifies you to talk about the tank? let alone you've playted a total of 34 games in tier X. You seal club at lower tiers and try to stat farm based off of that. You've played less than 1K games in blitz. Your career average damage is 1373. Pretty low. Talk about a big ego

and no, my PC name is not Newbie_134. I started playing pc a long time before blitz. Pretty sure you can check the acc history on tanks.gg or smth.

[violet island]

Man big suprises here, with a new acc you have to play low tier to get new tanks. Which you can then start to play after you get acustomed to the game (big shocker, I know). The Statement that most players are bad at the game is easily verifiable by the amount of sub 50%wr players, atleast on EU. Once I get out of botmm at 5k games I will most likely still get higher stats than you anyways.
As I send you my wotblitz name you can also just be nice and send me your name as you can't check name history unless you have the player id and I do not have your player id

[lilac ginkgo]

Y’all just stop arguing. It’s pretty well agreed upon that the grille 15 is in a horrendous state right now. It just doesn’t second line well right now due to its horrendous on the move accuracy.

[unborn whale]

See. A third party man agrees with me that the grille is trash rn. And if its a new account, send me your old one, or you aren't exactly the most qualified blitz player if you seal club at lower tiers and don't even own the grille as a tank yourself. And since you want my blitz username its the same as my discord username

[violet island]

so that excuses you from answering to my questions further?
Nice one, seems like I was right with my assumption

[gloomy patio]

their sole agenda of nerfing the grille is to decrease its popularity

[unborn whale]

yes it does. Im trying to stop the argument rn in case you haven't noticed

[stable gulch]

he asked for your pc name, not the blitz name

[stone drum]

Foch 155 casually having 500 alpha for a 155mm gun:

[humble depot]

Hmm. Not like they nerfed the most OP medium tank and autoloader. Not at all…

[ornate warren]

Literally makes me instantly switch to the single shot gun

[mystic gorge]

@charred comet is this a typo with the IS-4 ammo types? Or is it actually getting its standard AP rounds switched to APCR?

[final warren]

I'm really hoping that this makes people stop spamming the TVP. I'm not sure how much they will nerf it, but sometimes people will just stop playing a tank simply because of the fact it was nerfed. It doesn't matter if it was a small nerf and the tank is still strong, people will just stop playing it

[humble depot]

I don’t think this nerf will kill the TVP, but it’ll do away with the most annoying parts for sure.

[twilit crystal]

I wish there was a way to detect equipment. Specifically cali/rammer and optics/camo net. The others don't really matter other than armor and hp but u can usually tell those

[solid sequoia]

I’m assuming that since it has the same gun as the 777 v2 and that’s getting a switch to APCR, that the IS-4 is also getting a switch

[twin egret]

Just count how long it takes for them to reload

[stone drum]

Why are they nerfing progetto hesh penetration? That makes no sense.

[twilit crystal]

progetto doesn't have hesh. it has 55 mm

[stone drum]

Just because it doesn't have 200mm of penetration doesn't make it not hesh, lol.
Nerfing already bad he pen is just silly on WG's part.

[twilit crystal]

ok fine but its still 50-56

[ancient rampart]

They should just make "HESH" into actual HESH

[tepid quest]

He's so right with the grille 15, same @unique scaffold

[halcyon oriole]

Are they gonna add like some hungarian or some other country’s tanks?

[stone drum]

It will likely be like 48 which is borderline unusable.

[stuck acorn]

camo values are worthless on like 80% of the maps and this tank with 2700 DPM would be terrible. It would only ruin it even more and make it even more frustrating to face if it gets lucky enough to get like 1 of 3-4 maps where it would be actually usable

Honestly, just remove spall liner and give it back it's old 60kph speed

[violet island]

what a suprise, someone who has no clue about tank balance and just wants to play broken tanks is complaining about tanks getting balanced 🙂

[twilit crystal]

4005 can't retreat anymore 10.3 if you use your super speed getting to position

[cedar socket]

wargaming say you were kidding about this update

[stone drum]

Honestly if they scrapped the worst changes it would easily be a good overall change.

[fickle shoal]

so like 70% of the changes?

[cedar socket]

lmao yeah most are bad io hate the strv change the most its great in turny bad in reg tho

[subtle ocean]

so are people considering the wz 132-1 changes a big nerf? i was thinking about grinding it cause it looks like a cool tank with the ability, lots of dpm, high alpha, and a cool camo

[orchid grove]

It's losing 400 of that DPM, and with most other meds getting DPM buffs, it's going to have bad DPM for a med/light

[main tulip]

grille would actually be 20 seconds, because you're not peeking the enemy right when you start your reload; rather, the fight begins with a loaded shell

[stone drum]

Like 1/3, some changes like e3 where good ones.

[violet island]

what would you count as „worst“ changes?

[fickle shoal]

i was being sarcastic

and @violet island extremally subject to opinion

[twilit crystal]

yeah its hillarious how the vickers sacrifices alpha for no dpm increase while the 132 sacrifices a lot ofdpm for a moderate alpha increase

[twilit crystal]

sheri is still maintaining its alpha although not as toxic anymore. t100's armor is mostly angled base so it might still be fine although pen nerf sucks, BC is gonna be the best or 2nd best med/light with the stb 1 though

[twin egret]

"Low penetration" is a bit misleading for tanks whose HE have quite an amount of pen for HE, WG should change that for the tanks that do have it

[stone drum]

What?

@twilit crystal you should be able to run cali on t100lt and have more pen & dpm than it currently has.

[twin egret]

FV4202, FV215b (183), FV4004 Conway, FV4101 Charioteer, GSOR, Charlemagne, Blackdog, etc

Their hesh shells still have the description of "low penetration"

[twilit crystal]

the 4202 nerf is so dumb for the hesh gun reload, why should the hesh guns have basically the same dpm with hesh that like the leo 1 gets

[unique scaffold]

RIP HESH cuz some tank that use that shells will get a nerf penetration

[twilit crystal]

Are they? I think its just the super conq losing its hesh values but the badger gets hesh

[unique scaffold]

I did say some not all

[quartz snow]

#coming-soon removing dislikes per usual

[ancient rampart]

😳

[nimble zodiac]

And yet 462 people already came back and disliked it. Oof

[ornate warren]

Dayum, what a disgusting and expected moment.

[compact nymph]

1984

[indigo bronze]

Guys, since when did the retez X event started?

[untold gale]

Why the T22 has a credit coefficient of 81%? It is a premium thank. For me it dosen't make sense to get this thank because of that. What everybody think?

[unique scaffold]

Dayum kran gonna get speed buff

[placid rivet]

finally tvp gets nerfed (although just a bit) but my bat chat still probably can’t compete

[valid mist]

What’s y’all’s thoughts on the shell changes for e4. Apcr/heat/he

[stuck acorn]

Absolutely unnecessary, but won't change much

[valid mist]

I think it’s funny how they making it mostly all prem shells it’s like they want to make e4 players broke

[nimble zodiac]

I think you don't understand what actually makes APCR better than AP most of the time

If an AP and APCR shell have the same penetration, the AP shell is better. The APCR is just better on most tanks due to the pen difference

APCR as a standard shell will cost as much as a standard shell

[valid mist]

I understand just perfectly it will have same dmg and same pen as before just a different shell type you won’t be able to bouce the prem tho it will ether pen or it won’t. Imagine a tank that fires apcr heat and hesh as it’s shell types

[stuck acorn]

AP >>> HEAT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HE >>> APCR

That's how i would classify shells assuming each have the same penetration value

AP gets best shell normalization, and has no significant downsides other than 70 degree auto bounce

HEAT gets extremely high autoriccochet angle and higher cali bonus, but doesn't get normalization and stops at destructible objects,

HE gets additional damage, module damage and splash, but gets instantly stopped by spaced armor and has obviously no normalization and also gets stopped at destructible objects

APCR gets 2 degrees of normaalizations, but other than that has no significant advantages, it's just worse version of AP

[nimble zodiac]

Throw the same damage value in as well and APCR can negotiate with HEAT. Want 3CR, normalization, and the ability to effectively penetrate spaced armor? APCR. Don't want to ricochet, and get the 10% CS bonus? HEAT. Personally, I like APCR for that
:)

[remote oriole]

Assuming all have the same penetration value, I‘d go HE > AP > APCR > HEAT
If they also have the same damage value I‘d go AP > APCR > HE > HEAT

[wooden lynx]

APCR >>>> HEAT

APCR is more effective on angled armour with its 2° of shell normalisation. It also ignores spaced armour unlike HEAT.

[stuck acorn]

2 degrees are insignificant unless you shoot at angle that is borderline auto riccochet and HEAT gets barely affected by spaced armor anyway.

People tend to massivly overestimate spaced armor effectiveness against HEAT shells. In blitz HEAT just goes through it like hot knife into butter, it has nealy no effect what so ever

Especially considering that most of the time spaced armor covers low armored areas so there isn't even thick main armor behind to block the heat shell with decreased penetration after encountering spaced armor.

I don't think there are any tanks other than S conq and Super pershing on which spaced armor makes any difference at all against HEAT

[valid mist]

Yea but if ur hitting the flat side of a opponent and you know the angle isn’t bad on it heat is better due to the higher dmg to crew and tank parts such as ammo box or loaders. Also with the fact that heat cant bounce it’s good for if u have a wiggling target so you don’t bouce. Plus the only target I would have two worry about spaced armour on would be Sheridan and I’m not gunna use heat on it I would use my standard shell type. To do more damage. Also the shell normalization is good due to the fact of ur fighting a heavyly angled target. It all depends on ur opponent if they have low angle heat if they have high angle apcr if they wiggle heat if they don’t apcr

[nimble zodiac]

The only real issue with HEAT against spaced armor is the distance that spaced armor has from the main plate. Because it's a percentage scale per distance, there is a dead length for every HEAT shell. Of course, there are also just plates that are super close to the main armor, but those tend to be thick, and not preferable to shoot at.

@valid mist I guess really it's up to abusing 3CRB to cut through target's tracks, though WG is putting bandaids on like Type 71's track wheel, and the upcoming Maus side buff. HEAT is good against sidescrapers that are thin, but thin enough, and APCR rules once again.

[stuck acorn]

Well, but again, how often will it actually make any effect? Most of the time spaced armor is either an additional plate slapped onto the tank and is very close to main armor or a 5mm shield that is quite far away but covers weak side armor that gets penned anyway, even if Spaced armor eats most of HEAT shell's pen. They are not far away to stop the shell completly and cover areas thin enough to get penned anyway

Let's be honest here, spaced armor has any significant effect only against HE

[nimble zodiac]

Exhibit A: Abusing 3CRB with APCR

@stuck acorn I mean, if you bring thin spaced armor plates into play, APCR takes advantage, like in situations where HEAT will fail, such as a tank having sideskirts when sidescrape. Granted, it's not an exclusively common thing. Often times both shells will penetrate what they're supposed to, and the advantages of APCR are offset by HEAT's CS bonus

[burnt venture]

What's hilarious is that sideskirts actually make your tank's effective armor way weaker against AP and APCR, because the extra armor just removes any autobounce rules. That's why tanks like 215B "feels" like it has no side armor because AP shells with 5 deg normalization decreases that effective armor by so much.

215B has a 6mm sideskirt with 79mm side armor. Even angling at a sidescraping angle, AP just butters through the side because it normalizes twice: once on the sideskirt and once on the side itself.

The same side angle is 254mm effective to AP (which for most heavy tanks is an easy pen). But once you switch to APCR, it becomes 300+mm effective. And HEAT won't even scratch that at all because of the spacing.

[nimble zodiac]

Heh. You used my prime example
The shell doesn't normalize twice, though. Because the main side armor is relatively thin, AP uses 3CRB to attempt a penetration at, say, a 75° angle, ignoring the ricochet, and effectively penetrating the tank at a 70° angle. This isn't enough to stop IS-7's AP shell

[burnt venture]

FYI that's also why you never ever sidescrape in Conqueror or Caernarvon. 50mm side armor with overmatchable sideskirts just suck and massively reduce the effectiveness of your side armor against AP, even at what seems like autobounce angles. Also, for some reason the Conq/Caernarvon hull has rear drivewheels which are modeled as primary armor so even tier 1s can pen when the tank is fully front-on.

Super Conq however, doesn't have this issue, as it has 25mm sideskirts and the sides are thick enough to bounce after AP shells get a pen reduction from hitting the spaced armor.

Also remember that there's 2 caliber rule, which actually INCREASES the normalization angles of AP shells if your gun caliber is double that of the nominal armor thickness. the angle of normalization will increase according to the following rule: resulting normalization = normalization angle (5 or 2 deg) * 1.4 * shell caliber / (2 * armor thickness at point of impact). So for bigger guns aiming at 215B, or even just 120mm guns shooting at Caern or Conq, the effective armor at the same angle decreases even more.

TL;DR British armor sucks balls

[uneven turtle]

Make obj 140 a light class at this point Y/N

[ionic anchor]

Grille balance??
Damage 600 -> 640

Reload time + 2s

💀💀💀💀

[twin egret]

Sound more like the game mechanics do lol

[sudden path]

Id rather have heat so that I can not worry about penning stuff like 140s and progs that rely on steep angles for auto bounces

[vast summit]

I think the TVP 50/51 should be a light tank and so should all it's counter parts from tier 8 on

[twilit crystal]

Technically saying it makes sense though because it's not like a normalized shell is going to untangle itself

[scenic olive]

Give it back it’s armor wg😭😭😭

[twilit crystal]

How i would rebalance super speed btw. Make it remove all camo while being used and buff the forward speed to 25% of top speed instead of 5 kmh . Make it nerf reverse speed by 8 kmh and buff the engine power boost by 50 instead 40 percent

[twin egret]

Ah yeah, let's make FV215b even worse

[plain wagon]

Tbh, FV 215B should have its super speed bost removed. I would like to make it have better engine power, power to weight ratio and more damage.
400 damage ->420 damage
About the engine, I am not smart so I don't know how to calculate how much engine power FV 215B needs to reach top speed in a short time.

[burnt venture]

No matter how bad the tank is, a heavy tank hitting a button to gain insane amounts of power to weight and a significant top speed increase with no downsides is stupid. It requires no skill or knowledge or timing or anything on the part of the player.

The tank being bad is due to other factors. Doesn't change the fact that superconsumables are unecessary, mess up balance, require no skill, and allow tanks to just get straight up buffs with little downsides

Also btw, in the case of speed boost it's a massive buff to heavy tanks, but not so significant for mediums. The top speed increase is proportionally way better for heavy tanks, and meds don't really need extra hp/ton. 121B for example doesn't really feel too much faster with speed boost, while E5 and 215B and E3 (when they all had the speed boost) feel significantly faster.

[queen geyser]

Super consumables just leaves u in the freehands of RNG, having only one repair kit is alr quite a bummer sometimes but with just the multi purpose kit, well 2 crits to u and ur quite doomed depending on what got wrecked

On some Tanks they are a really neat way to make a tank in a situation for a short time better for example its cool that I can use reticle for Emil/kran to better hit some shots in the distance rly reliable but kran shouldnt for sure have that accuary for the whole time

However im not a big fan of Super speed boost or reactive armor in General, they are either pointless or kinda too good in a situation, this dosnt happen nearly every game tho

[burnt venture]

The thing is though that same exact feeling can just be achieved by buffing the base stats of the tank.

Without superconsumables, we can have slightly faster tanks with better gun handling. But because superconsumables exist, we have tanks which are slow and have garbage gun handling until you press a button and then for 15 seconds a magical spell causes your tank to become god-like.

It forces tanks to be uncomfortable to play just so some neanderthal somewhere can have neuron activation by pressing button. Woooo

[stone drum]

Then you would Honestly need to buff eagle 7 if you hit super-speed boost it would cripple the tank, as it's basically the only thing keeping it afloat.

[queen geyser]

Well in my opinion kran with reticle the whole time would maybe kinda too good idk and it dosnt even need the accuary and gunhandling the whole time since you are suppose to frontline no? But I rly like that sometimes in a battle, u will need to shoot on range, maybe and then u can pretty your reticle and have some accurate shoots (if u didnt wasted it earlier)
And its not like I would really lose something, there is no Adrenalin or a intra Clip boost, its also a "skill" no? Like to decide when u want to be more accurate for a clip, well more "skillfull" then having the accuary the whole time for sure even if its not even that much

[twilit crystal]

yeah a kran going from 34 to 40 feels alot better than a 121b going 61 instead of 56

[queen geyser]

Well its probably a rather subjective topic if these stuff is fine or not, in my opinion the reticle cali for example is rly fine, and I like how its implemented, the other ones idc too much honestly, tungsten is cool but for the others I mostly run a repair kit instead of it, for example on E5 or Fv215b i just use adrenaline

[elder robin]

You know what im gonna enjoy
Both my 121B and T95E6.
The reason is because they're both getting abilites (Adaptive Concealment and Combat Stabilization)
This is good due to first of all, 121B is merely just losing a module for a major way to deal with tracer shells. So its gonna be undetected way quicker.
As for the T95E6, its merely just losing a bit of pen for more easy mobility. And due to the ability Combat Stabilization, its gonna be way easier to hit your shells, especially when this thing is hull down, it can peek and go back while still retaining its accuracy.
Honestly Adaptive Concealment for 121B is a good move, it makes it a better T-62A in a way.
Sure we may miss Reactive Armor and all, but in exchange it can be under the radar quicker.
It also still has the Upgraded Speed Boost, so it doesnt matter if it loses anything, infact, its just making it like a better T-62A in a way if you think about it.
Overall, the changes for both of these are very good.
As for the Obj 268 Version 4, thats a different story
Its losing alpha and such which is what its supposed to be.
Its supposed to be like its counterpart, the Object 268, its not just a TD with armor, its a TD which is supposed to be worth it for its price and at the same time be like its counterpart.
The fact its losing Alpha and Penatration, its the point of a TD, to sit and snipe from the back. Through it is a frontline TD, people could hit the roof of the upper plate.
What im suggesting is to buff the upper plate by a bit so its more hard for meds to hit it from either above or when its going downhill and such.
Though the other 2 tanks i talked about are good changes.

[twilit crystal]

adaptive concealement barely deals with tracer shells. It goes from 20 seconds to 17 seconds

[stone drum]

Honestly adoptive concealment would be pretty good on something like grille-15.

@elder robin the obj 268 v4 absolutely does not need an upperplate buff, that is 100% pure skill issue, it is already 260mm raw thickness (read impenetrable to medium) and it is angled so to be the single strongest upperplate in the game at nearly 900mm of effective thickness (on par with some mbt's) if you are getting penetrated their, especially by mediums you are simply hilariously out of position or just downright awful at the game.

[teal cargo]

Does anyone know is the sheridan missile is receiving the same nerfs/buffs as the normal Sheridan?

[slender latch]

Too bad almost all tier 10's standard shell became APCR this would be an indirect nerf to its pen if they don't buff the base pen

[stuck acorn]

No it doesn't, it will remain as garbage as it is now forever

[unique scaffold]

I’m immensely pleased that this is still a pinned message here 🤣

[teal cargo]

Ok ty for telling me. The sheridan missile's bullet velocity is painful as is

[twilit crystal]

I dont think people realize how bad apcr is on heavy tank guns as standard ammo, try playing the 113 which is actually pretty accurate with a very good rof which makes misses less painful, the 60tp will be just annoying in almost all ways to fight and play

[stone drum]

Honestly if they just didn't implement the absolute worst changes, like
-M48
-Jageroo
-IS-4
-Fv4202
-Ho-ri type III
-WZ-113
-AMX m4 mle. 54
-Strv K / kranvagn
These would overall be decent changes
(Yes their are other bad changes like WZ & IS-7, but these are just bad.)

[graceful elk]

Like reactive makes you slower

[broken kernel]

You forgot to include every single british T10 tank over there

[twin egret]

fv215b good change????

[main tulip]

The British changes weren't as bad as any of those - they might end up being bad tanks, but at least they weren't horrendously misguided decisions

[nimble zodiac]

It’s dumb but the armor nerf won’t really affect anything. The cupola is already the weakspot, and you’re not planning to expose your already weak rear

[austere citrus]

buff mod 1 upper plate to 132mm or give it 6 degrees of gun depression

[twin egret]

armour nerf will affect

[nimble zodiac]

I forgot, my bad. I keep rereading it and confusing the parts 😂
The turret will be affected
Just realized IS-7 doesn’t have any reactions

[broken kernel]

How is ruining tanks not a misguided decision ?

[austere citrus]

badger is gonna be op

[main tulip]

you have to look at what exactly they are changing. They are choosing what areas to buff or nerf correctly for the most part, it just isn't being done in the correct quantities.

Also, a bog standard hull down medium tank labeled as a light (vickers) doesn't have a place in the game. It's better for it to rot than to see relevance in any aspect.

[nimble zodiac]

Badger is already OP, lol

[broken kernel]

Its good that you said the last part, just shows that you actually dont care about balance and that you dont actually play the game, i have gotten more bounces in the bat chat ever than in the Vickers, never have i once bounced a shot with my turret in the vickers i have only bounced shots in my upper plate when its extremely angled

[twilit crystal]

badger already has trash accuracy, a further nerf is terrible. The HESH shells will be too innaccurate with not enough alpha to be worth the reward unless its obvious shots. APCR to HEAT is debatable, there is serious pros to high pen heat over high pen apcr.

[main tulip]

Lol, you just proved that you're the one who doesn't play the game. Vickers is objectively more armored than the batchat.

And balance isn't about making every tank equally powerful, it's about making the game healthy. In that respect, it's best to keep tanks that really shouldn't have been introduced out of the meta entirely, and I believe that to be true for the vickers.

[nimble zodiac]

Badger has fine accuracy. It doesn’t move so much that it blooms that badly, and even then, you can still just hide that lower plate and afford to sit still for a couple of seconds.

Batchat gets lucky if it bounced, Vickers less so. The Vickers can do more than just hope the enemy shoots its upper plate or turret at a crazy angle

WG already believes in cycling balance, so tanks being bad is a norm to them now. We can’t save every tank.

Neither armor profile is good, so I wouldn’t mald over it getting lucky ricochets every so often

[main tulip]

Also, the 4005 and 183 changes were rather good. And while I don't agree with the Chieftain changes, at least it is getting entirely a buff.

[broken kernel]

In the stats sure, but the angles on the bat chat make it bounce so much more shots

[nimble zodiac]

After the change, I can argue that BatChat has a better armor profile than Vickers, but in the end, they’re still both light tanks than won’t deflect many shells against a decent opponent

[broken kernel]

APCR is just better wdym ?

@nimble zodiac ah yes i forgot everyone uses calibrated shells on their badger instead of rammer for 3.8K dpm. Im so stupid hahahahahaha

[main tulip]

APCR is just worse, lol
especially because they usually don't adjust velocity when they make the switches

[nimble zodiac]

Remember that HEAT gets a 10% CS bonus, when APCR doesn’t

I mean, if you care that much about the shell being different, then something like CS would matter to you :p

[twin egret]

It would get 407mm pen with heat cs

[broken kernel]

APCR gets shell normalization, shell velocity, doesnt get eaten by spaced armor and doest get eaten by destructable objects @main tulip

[acoustic estuary]

Only issue is the loss of pen by range. But this is barely noticeable for me.

[nimble zodiac]

APCR gets to ricochet 😎

[stone drum]

I'm including the absolute worst of them from each nation.
Not saying it's good, but it's not as horrendous.

[acoustic estuary]

@nimble zodiac apcr gets to shoot through obstacles and spaced Armor ( heat can shoot through spaced but it’s complicated i think ).

[broken kernel]

Fv4202 was not the worst

[timid geyser]

Tier 6-10 is +- balanced
Play tier 1-4... Completely nerfed T82 and Matilda can meet in one battle

[fringe quest]

Kinetic rounds>chemical rounds

[stone drum]

Which british change would you suggest to be worse?

[broken kernel]

Fv215b, Super Conqueror, Vickers Light

[acoustic estuary]

I wouldn’t call the 215b and s.conq bad changes. Vickers is another deal tho 😂👌

[stone drum]

Superconqueror Lost penetration for dpm? Not a fun change, but it won't actually really hurt the tank.
Fv215b lost some turret armour (which could barely be used) for better mobility. Not really significant to the tank.
Vickers lost its mantlet armour & alpha for dpm.

Fv4202 just straight up lost its niche entirely, even when running the hesh gun with rammer it will have inferior dpm to certain mediums, which is straight up ridiculous.

[broken kernel]

How is removing the only other good part of the 215b (strong turret) for only 2km/h more top speed a good change ? Its pathetic

[acoustic estuary]

Hmm, i see your point, but for me, 215b isn’t for the armor but for the gun. I can see now why people love it’s turret. But enjoying a but more mobility for me is a good change, i guess it comes from what you want to do with it.

[clear shuttle]

is the kran change really that bad 💀

[stone drum]

Honestly I believe cycling balancing to been an inherently awful idea, especially to extremes. Now if they are just making one tank extra-good and others unique & good, but just not dominant that's fine. However if they are just trashing tanks to make them irrelevant because they can, that's Just messed up.

@clear shuttle yes its incredibly toxic, we have a faster T57 heavy now with impenetrable turret armour. It basically just managed to powercrept the already busted T57, which isn't to be taken lightly.

[main tulip]

#bringbackpre-9.1T57

[violet island]

T-100 is just a straight up better tank then Vickers after the changes, if they nerfed armor and kept the alpha it would be fine, if they kept the armor and nerfed the alpha for some dpm it would be fine. This just removes the tank from the meta while making the t-100 the same it was now with another gimmick in tracer shells iirc
@main tulip I don’t even think the design of the tank was that bad, I would have just lowered the dpm of the vickers a small bit and it would have been fine imo

[austere citrus]

tbh 300 is kinda too low, 330 makes sense

[clear shuttle]

fair enough, i was looking at it the other way round

also even if the vickers got more dpm for less alpha its really not going to be a good lt anymor
sure you have dpm but you hit for on average less than a t100 (which has a lower caliber gun 💀 ) + you're mantlet is even more pennable
so is the less alpha and mantlet armour for more dpm really worth it?

[main tulip]

they should've made Vickers into an ultra-peashooter tank with like 260 alpha, but strong in other stats

[twilit crystal]

Heat can pen stuff over 70 degrees even when it isn't overmatchable, this can help a lot with turret roofs and stuff like that

[rapid basin]

Depends on the armor thickness
And heat is terrible

[acoustic estuary]

Wouldn’t call it terrible.

[clear shuttle]

at least it dosent lose pen over distance, but with how small some maps are pen loss over distance isnt as noticed

[stone drum]

I oh I know it's getting worse, I was actually going to originally state it & Vickers for the worst, but I decided just 1 tank for each "nation".

[twilit crystal]

It matters a lot of times, examples , super conq roof armor, 60tp's stupid blelly armor, progetto 65 upper plate and quite a few more

[austere citrus]

ngl i think pen should be reduced for heavy tanks because heavy tanks should have armor, not 374mm of pen

leave the 374mm pen to tds

[burnt venture]

Not having pen doesn't solve any issues at all with heavy meta. In fact, it strengthens heavy meta and kills mediums even more because when you cannot pen heavy tanks, you would just target mediums instead. We already have 268v4, Mino, Type 71, etc. tanks which are pretty much gold-only frontally.

On the other side, mediums with 4k DPM with no pen isn't going to do better against heavy tanks. It's just going to make sure bad medium tank players die in 20 seconds and cause more steamrolls when that DPM is used against mediums, not heavys.

[acoustic estuary]

At least they will do damage lmao. Better then nothing.

[burnt venture]

Meds don’t need DPM, they need pen buffs especially on gold rounds. And then accuracy buffs.

The fact that some mediums have worse gun handling than some heavy tanks is ridiculous when their penetration is hard capped at 300

[austere citrus]

honestly? just nerf heavy dispersion

heavy cant win if they cant hit

[stone drum]

Yes, mediums should be having 320-330 base HEAT. 300 is ridiculously awful & unfair.

[nimble zodiac]

I agree that WG is bad at it. I feel like if a tank becomes popular due to a certain quality it has (like TVP’s rapid high damage autoloader), they should cycle it out by nerfing say, the interclip, or alpha, so it falls out of spam mode and other tanks can then shine. WG likes to cling onto what makes tanks special, and nerf other things about it to “balance” it. I’m glad WG is taking some good steps to reducing the obnoxious qualities of TVP and 183, but some of these other changes are just… why?

Still waiting for them to cycle heavies out as a class 🤪

[void siren]

WG believes cycling balancing is where you cycle the playstyles of each tank

[stone drum]

I mean stuff like tvp being nerfed is fine, but say cycling vickers & fv4202 out Is just questionable at best.

Imo certain features of some tanks should never be nerfed as that is part of their character, for example 50b mobility or leopard 1 dispersion or ho-ri penetration. If such tanks become broken, WG should try and avoid completely dismantling their identity & instead change supporting statistics.

[subtle ocean]

thoughts on the batchat 25 changes? i was wondering if i should grind it or the wz-132 or lt-100 now

[quartz snow]

WZ-132-2 is absolutely dead by 10.3. Go for the T-100 LT, the grind isnt vert bad and the tank itself is pretty good if you play it properly

[quartz snow]

Mediums cant pen heavies, frustration.
Heavies cant hit anything, more frustration
Tank Destroyers get annihilated quickly, more frustration
Lights are worser Mediums, even more frustration.

[gloomy patio]

simple solution

1. buff med prammo pen
2. nerf heavy mobility except 215b e6 strv k chieftain

[fickle shoal]

(and kpz 70)

[twin egret]

Kpz 70 isn't even on the balance change list

[elder robin]

Ah alright, i just wanted to point it out as its upperplate on console is low as of compared to the Lower Plate, though Blitz has different mechanics unlike the WOT Console version.
I am sorry that i said the mistake of wanting to buff the upperplate.
But overall i think it was because i didnt play the tank for a while, but after coming back to it, its armor is completely fine.

[slender latch]

I am surprised thr E100 is getting 680 alpha and keepin its medium hull traverse speed. Also JagPzE100 getting tungsten is pretty unexpected.

[austere citrus]

e100 gonna be strong af

[hasty gyro]

Give the poor MTs and LTs penetration

[fickle shoal]

pet peeve of mine to not shut up about it

[indigo bronze]

Is the fixer top turret worth 3k gold and will the offers for the remaining modules will be for gold or real money?

[twilit crystal]

A. its worthless without the top turret, why would you want to keep an inferior tank, so the question is if it the fixer is worth 3k gold

[indigo bronze]

Well, i t8 for 3k gold is not a bad deal

[elder robin]

T95E6 is actually reducing its penatration in the update, it'll have 250 pen i think which isnt so bad.
However this singular hinderence will not affect its performance, as its going to gain more DPM and better traversing.
Not to mention. Its gaining Combat Stabilization, so its gonna retain accuracy as long as its around 15 km/h.
Im also gonna mention the 121B because i want to.
Its losing Reactive Armor for Adaptive Concealment.
This is a small hinderance but at the same time isnt, it sometimes needs Reactive Armor to take less shells when on the move, plus its good for brawling.
Merely just having 7 seconds of being spotted is pretty good aswell though, so im not gonna complain about its change.
Though the opinion on the change of 121B is just there, the T95E6's update is an example of your idea.

[clear shuttle]

reactive is what sort of made the 121B “stand out” a little more compared to other meds, because as you mentioned while active its a strong brawling tank against other mediums.
at this rate id rather them change the statistics of the 121B, over giving and taking stuff like consumables and mechanics
idk how it’ll perform with adaptive concealment tho as to me it kind of seems strange for a medium to have it but idk

[stone drum]

50b:
It retaining it's mobility is really more important than any other heavy, as no other heavy has such an emphasis on mobility.

[remote blaze]

Many don't wants to admit that some tanks needs buff.

[eternal monolith]

Do anyone know how much the T-22 amor buff will be?

[stone drum]

Likely no more than 20mm, which would make it resistant, but not impenetrable to most standard tank rounds. Expect the front to be troll, but not particularly strong.

[vestal kayak]

BT-SV: Balanced or not?

[frank bone]

I need to restore that tank, too funny playing 14 bt-sv back in the days

[unique scaffold]

#coming-soon message WG can you please try again, no one wants this changed.....

[uneven turtle]

Weegee making obj 140 a light tank without concealment in movement how nice

WG making a balancing channel only to read it once a blue moon

[stuck acorn]

Or just heavies need armor and pen nerfs

Yes, i'm looking at you E100

[shy wren]

I mean, it’s now closer to a Leo 1 though, trading alpha with rate of fire and gun depression with a lower silhouette.

[uneven turtle]

121B getting adaptive concealment as a mt is a dum move. Surprised I just noticed it

[scarlet fjord]

What is combat stabilization battle mechanic?

[remote oriole]

If you drive slowly your tank is more accurate

[stone drum]

Honestly it would be more useful if we could control our speed in-game more, it would be nice I we could choose between a higher & lower gear.

[ember mountain]

only problem with this is the screen space for mobile gamers lol.

gonna be lots of buttons especially on gamemodes with special abilities

[stone drum]

Doesn't need to be a new button, it can just be part of the current joystick.

[void siren]

A little bar for max speed percentage 🙂

[willow hawk]

*penetration

[twilit crystal]

if you drive slowly its as if you aren't moving it all with regards to dispersion, so you stay fully aimed

[twin egret]

Play on Switch or use a controller
You can control your speed on switch

[stone drum]

Well switch has other issues, but you can do that on switch?

[autumn zodiac]

No you can't

Tbf you couldn't do that on console either

[twin egret]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/222684350049681408/927901656186761266/2022010404275701-4F2522070C05134EFB190D64FA28E6A1.mp4

[autumn zodiac]

That must be new because on release you couldn't

[ember mountain]

wow, we PC players need that for combat stabilization mechanic

[twin egret]

Nah you PC players already got a mouse to aim with

[ancient rampart]

If you drive under a certain speed your dispersion doesn’t increase allowing you to stay accurate while making yourself a harder target to hit

[scarlet fjord]

That's a nice mechanic

[icy linden]

How much dpm of the progetto gonna increase after the buff

[empty copper]

Is the tier 10 tvp getting a nerf in the new update?

[twilit crystal]

It will have around 2900 when empty . @empty copper yeah it is

[honest ingot]

Why they wouldn't Progetto gun handling instead tho, the dispersion is so bad, it barely can't hit anything above 150m

[wooden lynx]

Personally I run refined gun on the Progetto 65, and I hit my shots reliably. It's still got decent aiming time.

[stone drum]

If you run refined gun you make the already bad dispersion factors relatively even more horrendous. Not to mention vertical stabilizer also lends an after-shot dispersion reduction which allows the accurate firing of multiple shells in quick succesion.

[twin egret]

They are negligible with level 7 crew

[honest ingot]

Progetto's aiming time ain't decent imo a it needs slight buff it would be a fine tank if they did, I'm used to play tanks with pretty good gun handlings like the E5 and TVP, when i was touching Progetto for the first time i was like "what the heck is this gun handling is this even a medium" not to mention the fact it doesn't have that much dpm, most of the time i steamrolls with the tank 💀

[stone drum]

They aren't.

Even with Vertical stabilizer & crew perks it still doesn't reach the level of a decently accurate completely stock medium without either of the aforementioned perks.

[twin egret]

Eh idk, I'm usually hitting my shots in the tank

[shrewd berry]

Yeah, in German TDs the shell velocity is going to be decreased so much that now you can see your shell Flying in air and lands either in front of tank or goes above it...😂😂

[winged barn]

I fail to see the problem with the prog accuracy. Sure, its accuracy is worse than the rest of the medsin tier 10, but is not a kv2 at all. The gun is plenty accurate to reliably hit even long range shots. A big dpm boost? Oh hell yea. Makes the tank even better at what it does very well.

[stone drum]

If you cant see the problem I can't help you, .335 dispersion with .15/.15/.1 handling is atrocious in tier X for a fast medium.

[twilit crystal]

Its not a fast med though . Anyway its really hard to balance autoreloaders

[stone drum]

It's decently mobile, but honestly it should have at the very least slightly better dispersion, I would recommend .317-.326 dispersion when not running vents.

[winged barn]

It can hit its shots. Being less accurate than perfect does not mean that its accuracy is bad.

Also, its playstyle makes it not need tp be a pixel sniper. Its a harassment tank. They look away from you, they eat shells until they look at you, at which point you can just save up your firepower for when they give you the side of a turret again.

Opposed to a leopard where it cannot save its firepower for when there are easy shots, so it actually needs to hunt for the smallest penetrable areas to actually maintain ita firepower

[scenic olive]

Does anyone happen to know the exact amount of traverse the 50b is getting? Ik that wg didn’t specify, but just wondering if someone knows.

[stone drum]

The accuracy is objectively bad, the sheer amount of shots the tank misses is truely impressive.

It's not even about hitting pixels, it's about even scoring a hit on the enemy.

[winged barn]

I hate to have to say this...
Skill issue

[stone drum]

Then your just in denial of its current state. If you think it has a good degree of accuracy you are not thinking clearly in any reasonable capacity.

[void siren]

Man wants medium clipper to get absurd accuracy, ignores big alpha and clip damage

[acoustic estuary]

It could get a nerf for the accuracy buff.

[stone drum]

Oh I'm sorry I think having the literal worst [western] medium accuracy by a considerable margin is outright ridiculous. I love how you think having .326 dispersion is "absurd accuracy" especially considering it has an average alpha despite your claims to the contrary ascertaining it possesses "big alpha".

[void siren]

It has the 4th or so best alpha out of meds, has the highest hp, and silly light tank camo.

[stone drum]

350 is the average alpha for a 105mm gun... the only other Alphas are 310, 320, 340, 360, 380, and 420. Oh would you look a that... it's right in the center... discluding the outlier it's still right in the middle...

That HP is about to get basically evaporated, not like having above average hp really mattered anyways.
Oh and yeah that "silly light tank camo" is not even above average for a medium, it's literally just average medium tank camo...

Regardless none of that justifies having accuracy on par with the likes of WZ-121.

@winged barn imagine using armour inspector for anything accuracy related

[winged barn]

500 meter shot. 0% chance of failure.

It mIsSeS sO mAnY sHoTs
Aim lmao.

[acoustic estuary]

What does this prove lmao.

[winged barn]

The prog is a tank with aspects that are perfect for putting out a lot of damage into temporarily distracted (easy sideshots) targets. The accuracy is just fine for that job. Any more accuracy is not for the purpose that the prog fills.

[stone drum]

Meanwhile:

The fact you think progetto having the nerfed accuracy it does now is perfectly fine speaks loads about yourself. You can't hit distracted enemies if half your shots don't connect where you need them too. buffing the accuracy Is 100% the biggest thing Progetto needs currently.

[winged barn]

Frontally engaging an e3 is going after a distracted target?

[twilit crystal]

^no med is penning that shot lol at that angle

[stone drum]

He had just shot and was pulling into cover.

@twilit crystal i penned the other 2
@ancient rampart yes it absolutely would be easier because both those tanks are more accurate

Thank God Synx is here.

[ancient rampart]

That’s a pretty easy shot to make in the amx 30 1er and T 55A

But yeah the progetto 65 should get an accuracy buff

There’s no reason play it over other mediums which end up being much more accurate

[twilit crystal]

Yeah at the same angle not from above, the nature of the e3's curved plate basically means half those shots miss, if you got an e3 ill test with you in a training room with a leo

[novel ruin]

FV215B (183) best heavy change my mind

[cold dome]

Not to diss matchmaking but I just finished a battle where there were four heavies on each side, good so far. This is a tier 8/7 battle. Red has four tier 8 heavies and green, my team, has one tier 8 heavy and 3 tier 7 heavies, none being an anni or a smasher. I saw that and penciled in a loss. This really needs to be thought out better. The tiers need to be balanced better than that. This is not the first time I’ve run into this. It takes the fun out of the game.

[nimble zodiac]

By all means, provide examples.
We all know the game need better balancing

[austere citrus]

honestly want to make the game more fair? make the maps larger

we are reaching a point where modern phones CAN handle larger maps

[ember mountain]

not everyone plsys on a modern phone though
hell even my laptop still gets fps drops with mdeium wotb graphics
if i was playing on a better device, you bet i woulda moved to WT long ago instead of playing blitz

[thorny timber]

What's the use of making a smaller pocket version for weaker devices if it can't run on weaker devices in the first place.

[keen dew]

make a setting for battle in smaller or larger maps like same control mode

[honest knot]

WoTPC allows to filter out some maps yeah, but it's with premium account iirc.
Yes, maybe blitz could implement that

[stable gulch]

Yes and no. Wot pc allows everyone to ban one map for standard battles (you can still get the map in encounter or assault if you dont turn these modes off). With a premium account you can ban a second map and with wot plus you can ban another map (same rules here as for the first map ban). They are not used to say filter maps out, but rather to avoid playing certain maps that you dont like or dont want to play due to the tank you are currently playing. What however would be an option would be another standard battle gamemode, where both teams are bigger on bigger maps. On pc its called grand battle and is a 30v30 mode with i think 4 times largee maps. It can be turned off in the settings, just like encounter and assault

[honest knot]

thx for the clarification :)

[wooden lynx]

It takes 3 seconds to load in another shell, by the time it loads in another shell you should be fully aimed in again.

[stone drum]

Thats assuming both you & your target are 100% completely still, a situation that is extremely rare.

[winter dagger]

Or they aren't staring straight at you

[zenith steppe]

I think the progetto’s accuracy is fine as it is. It’s got the auto reloading mechanism going for it which is pretty strong. With good Armour and usable mobility I don’t see why it needs the accuracy. Sure it misses shells but if it had the auto reloading mechanism and good accuracy it would be slightly broken.

[wicked ridge]

400 alpha is already big enough for t8, so reload time needs faster a bit

[stone drum]

Yeah I agree I've since reversed my opinion after playing it and realizing the trash mobility really hurts it.

[haughty blade]

Why does WG not test its balance changes?

[autumn zodiac]

#open-test-discussions ?

[honest ingot]

Autoreloading mechanism doesn't make any difference tbh, the dispersion it's as much as unreliable as 121, sure 121 has pretty good alpha for the trade but it doesn't for Progetto, the alpha is pretty much your average t10 meds, dpm? It barely reach 2.9k while the other tank does better in terms of gun such as Bat-Chat and TVP, even Bat-Chat can reach 3k dpm it's just insane and more reliable gun to support your teammates.

[twilit crystal]

autoreloaders with 2.9k is pretty insane lol, the issue is its an rng machine

[stone drum]

Why can't you send massages in that channel?
atleast on my end

[zenith steppe]

No it kinda does. The ability to load only a single shell after using up your whole clip (albeit slowly) can give you much higher effective DPM than other clippers like TVP or Batchat which have to be stuck on reload. That difference to me makes it worth it to have to sacrifice a little accuracy

[fallow tinsel]

@neat sentinel i cant login in test version even after ihave phone registered

[twilit crystal]

yeah current bc is pretty flexible though, just a bit longer than camo reset anyway, new bc will have to be more careful with just firing a single and going on reload,

[stone drum]

It's perfectly fine sacerficing a little accuracy, but progetto sacerfices alot. It can keep its relatively bad handling, but it should have decent fully-aimed dispersion. Like .317 or .326 would be sufficient.

[void siren]

It has .328 dispersion…

[unique scaffold]

Will Type 71 be any good after 10.3?

[ancient rampart]

Yes

[sand lark]

What the hell AMX 54 even deserved the nerfs, its already a balanced tank

[stuck acorn]

it's not

[chilly crane]

Yes.

[verbal stone]

T-54 mod 1 needs HD graphics so badly

[unique scaffold]

It is.

[stuck acorn]

It is just as balanced as any other heavy, so no, it's not balanced at all

Not to mention tournaments where it absolutely dominates

[stone drum]

It's .335 unless you decide you infact dislike penetrating your shots.

@stuck acorn it didn't deserve to get crippled like it did (as it has an unimpressive relative WR) and stripped of the vast majority of its uniqueness. Plus the insulting 450 alpha.

All it really needed was sandbags removed.

[honest ingot]

It doesn't give you much higher dpm, do you even know how fast Bat-Chat can reload all of its shells? It only took 13s to load all of its shells and then do 900 damage to your tank and not to mention the fact it has clip boost lol

[rigid moon]

Does anyone know how much better the t22 armor is getting?

[solid sequoia]

WG does

[stone drum]

It would be nice to see the T-55a have it's Heat penetration Buffed to like 300mm+ and got an extra degree of gun depression (6°) it would give the tank a Nice advantage over the T-54 to give it some redevance.

Or alternatively the handling could be Buffed to like .1/.1/.05 base without any equipment or crew skills in addition to possibly another slight buff, potentially one of the aforementioned ones.

[graceful elk]

Yeah its a shame, its one of my favorites on pc and its pretty mediocre here.

[fickle shoal]

since we mentioned tier 9's, can the kpz 70 recieve a slight top speed increase or maybe just super speed consumable, any minor reductions to accuracy applied, so about 45 km/h if buffed top speed, or 47-50 with super engine boost, doubt it would make it completely broken as powercreep has done it's magic slowly, and faster heavies seem to be the new thing

[twilit crystal]

IMO give kpz the type 71 equipment choices, more gun depression or more mobility

[upbeat sphinx]

I don't know if it's feasible, but 7 degrees of gun depression alone would make it somewhat more unique than t-54

[harsh ravine]

The kpz 70 has never been a notable tank since the T30 exists

Like what does the Kpz 70 offer over the T30? More HP and slightly better mobility? All while having a massively inferior gun and far less gun depression.

[fickle shoal]

correct, which is why making it more of a heavium mobility wise could make it alot more notable, and the gun + GDP i'd leave alone, if it's gonna fight meds/lights 560 is pretty much all you need

(armor is also fine, and maybe as a tradeoff for better mobility lessen it's hull frontal armor, as you won't be exposing it anyways, also pretty sure it has more armor then irl, but im not gonna full stand by that.)

[static karma]

Anybody here feeling like that badger should have less traverse speed than what it has currently? It turns abnormally fast for a tank of that size.

[sand lark]

Its a FV215b chassis.

[static karma]

I see, but don't you think a tank that boasts such armor should be quite sluggish in the mobility department?

[sand lark]

All tanks have different engines which means they don't all work the same, some faster at hill, slower flat, but I'd say the thing that makes badger unbalanced is rather the armor with Enhanced armor

[honest ingot]

It was slow before they decided to buff it, for that trade Badger lost gun handling for it which is fine imo, the current Badger is fine, i never had an issue fighting it you still can circle it with pretty much any meds in t10 and 9, the armour not so much to encounter you can just switch to prammo and aim for the flat part

[compact nymph]

... not quite? The Badger being virtually immune to circling due to its traverse as long as the driver has at least two functioning neurons is one of the main reasons why it is a minimal brain activity tank

[clear shuttle]

and now its getting hesh! thanks wargaming!

[stone drum]

I would say 7° & à terrain resistance buff would be largely sufficient.

@compact nymph no neurons necessary, autoaim automatically turns & prevents circling.

[wanton zephyr]

one question guys, I have a plan to restore my Super Conq back after 9 months of leaving it. Next update it will perform different, but should I get it back?

[stone drum]

Yes, the changes made to it should not seriously affect it's combat performance. You may notice that your hesh shell are less efficient against lightly armour opponents, However otherwise it should still feel good to play.

[outer glen]

Wg nerfing 215b to the ground
Meanwhile buffing the badger like it needs HESH for no reason

[subtle egret]

game is becoming p2w basically

[fickle shoal]

i'd rather it just have a speed and engine power buff, atleast a good chunk as it's way to sluggish for the tank it was irl (ofc the WoT MA version is a little to overbaked for blitz)

[stone drum]

Thats what terrain resistance does... if buffs mobility

[fickle shoal]

wouldn't it still be locked at 40 km/h?

[stone drum]

Probably, but it would turn & accelerate extremely quickly.

[fickle shoal]

thats good, but having a higher top speed with some gun handling debuffs as a tradeoff, since it's pretty good for it's caliber anyways, i'd place it more towards 45 with 50 being a little overkill, maybe locked behind engine booster

[stone drum]

I certainly wouldn't make the gun worse, if you want that go play an IS-7 or something.

[ancient rampart]

It just needs to go 44kmh with it's standard shell swapped from APCR to AP or a pen buff (255-265) if they keep it as APCR

[azure marten]

Nowhere near as much as WOT PC is, but they’re used to it by now because the devs keep pumping out new impenetrable Soviet premium heavies every week
And there aren’t any really OP tanks in blitz, while the few that are, are generally hard to obtain

[river geode]

BZ-75 tech tree will be assessed next for some reason

[twilit crystal]

badger is getting nerfed lmao, its not going to be able to use 100 pen hesh with the accuracy nerf and already horrific Otm dispersion