tank-balance-discussion

[wraith hornet]

Why would I be in the open with a tank that has no hull armor? You’re assuming my play style with just a sentence? Obviously I’m playing second line, not front line or camping in the 215b. Let’s drop your stats since you’re assuming I’m just some idiot sitting in the open

[twin egret]

Saying that is just so ignorant. Do you have anything to say that would provide feedback on why you think it's a good change 💀

@winged flame it's hardly a nerf overall

[winged flame]

215b can't be judged rn, everything depends on how much speed they give the tank to make the armour loss be compensated.
If it's for 3-5km is indeed a nerf

[glad cove]

I'm glad the focus Is on the way people play instead of the garbage balancing

[stone drum]

It's 2km. (Atleast supposedly)

[clear shuttle]

true

[thin oyster]

They wont give it anymore than 5kmh. I mean how does extra mobility help the 215 when it has speed boost.

Might as well just sell the 215 as theres gonna nothing going for it and just run a 260/e6

As long as the turret doesnt get penned by heavy rounds im fine w it

[pliant summit]

Hmm is it fine tho to see a 4k dpm tank in the next season it feels like death now to approach it

Also the maus sounds like impossible to deal with in small mal like himelsdorf

[solid sequoia]

“How does extra mobility help the 215 when it has speed boost”.
Old E5 with speed boost:

[burnt venture]

215B with no armor is not going to help at all though. The tank is longer than a Maus and is already pretty poorly armored. The rear turret also guarantees you're going to show a lot of tank to get shots off.

The speed buff does basically nothing if you're just going to get shredded by anything you see

[brazen snow]

Why did they take 50 pen of the hesh on the super conquer it didn't need a hesh nerf it's supposed to have hesh

[winged flame]

Just like why strv has it acts as a fake ht which it makes it change the rol WG it turning to a med more than a ht.
Now you have to worry abt that cupola, is getting nerfed too.

[thin oyster]

Old e5 with speed boost had dpm and keyword ARMOR. Plus 215 is rear turreted. This isnt even a fair comparison

[winter dagger]

The cupola is just spit on the face, the hull legit makes it a worse t95e6 with high HE Pen (talking about 215b)

[winged flame]

Also take this comment as main point of view, is so true that the E5 convert into dust from CW wje the turbo got removed is simply as remove the speed to make it a forgotten regular HT

[serene quiver]

You guys think that the dispersion nerf on the ho-ri is gonna be a 0.300+ dispersion with refined gun or is gonna be still less than 0.300 dispersion?

[stone drum]

Isn't it also loosing quite abit of its comparative dpm advantage?

@unique scaffold you can definitely tell the difference, but Ho-ri won't suffer because it still has very good handling.

[winged flame]

The speed boost need a brain to be used, get early positions, make fast rotations, making escapes from a loosed side of the map, or even to "dance" to make the shell go to the tracks instead of taking damage, 2km seems nothing but with the turbo it must feel something different, just have to be more careful with decisions bc it loose everything in armor after nerfing the cupola

[teal crystal]

why is everyone hating on 4005 changes?
it's not much of a change and they should be happy they didn't do worse to it

[unique scaffold]

do you realize that the nerf to the dispersion isnt noticeable at all. when are you gonna be able to tell the difference between 0.326 and 0.336.

@stone drum i dont think people will notice at all, but i dont play hori so i might be wrong.

[scenic olive]

They could of at least increased the reverse speed on the 215b also😭

[serene quiver]

Thats the official dispersion on the 10.3 update?

[winged flame]

The reticle calibration was the key for success of 4005, nothing else to say

[teal crystal]

the clipping aspect is still toxic though, back when it had 3 shells I was easily destroying meta tanks with it

[modest vault]

buff grille

[winged flame]

Yes they just avoid the fact of getting uninstalled from +200m I'm not mad abt that nerf, but I think there's way more emergency nerfs than the 4005 rn

[burnt venture]

the 4k5 will still be stupid, but considering it's getting the gun reliability neutered and then only getting 10 kph reverse, it's going to be a lot better to face.

Ofc still doesn't mean it's balanced, the large clip just makes it dumb to play against

[shrewd remnant]

Rip 215B. I was just thinking about grinding it lol. Interesting to see how heavy tanks like that and the IS4 are getting destroyed, the IS7 is getting monkeyed with, and the E5 is going to dominate. I just want to know the thought processes lol

[teal crystal]

I bought it 2 weeks ago thinking they wouldn't nerf it further, oh how wrong I was

[shy olive]

The grille its ok after 10.3, i mean i and my friend got camped really hard from an grille and it was not even spotted the whole game, im not a bad player either i did 4k dmg in that battle plus my friend with 1,7k dmg, we cant do anything about that grille.

[unique scaffold]

avg dmg was nerfed not only in this update, from 640 to 600 and now 580, i dont know what wargaming thinking

[shy olive]

If they keep it with high alpha and camp really hard... from 2-3 shots from the grille and you are out of the game and it isnt even spotted how you are supposed to counter that? Sheridan it has even lower on 560 and 13 sec of reload, grille with 7-8 sec reload with 580 its enouch to camp in the back and its less punisher

[teal palm]

I used to like the 215B
Armour is getting nerfed again? I generally don’t see the point in the tank anymore when the T95E6 and 113 exist, yeah it’s got HESH and traverse speed but if you can’t peek without being damaged that ain’t a good heavy tank

[unique scaffold]

the reload is only decreased by 0.7, not much but its a big diffrence, minus 20 in alpha seems nothing but in battle it means alot

[shy olive]

Yep, now put gun rammer and adrenaline and holly cow that dpm its on the sky

[violet island]

how are you still coping about the grille buff, everybody realised already you are not able to play it properly, don't show it in every of your messages

[unique scaffold]

my top performing tank, thats why, im going to grind a tank that not ben nerfed much, type 71 is a great choice

[cyan birch]

The British tech tree now: terrible light tank, ok medium, kind of a medium tank, medium with broken big gun and heavy light tank

[nimble zodiac]

Oh man, I wonder how it became your top performing tank 😶

[twin egret]

Except it went 36km or something like that before. Then WG removed the speed boost, and buffed it's top speed to around 40km

[queen geyser]

Stb having 3600 dpm with 300 ap pen and godlike gundepression, decent Armor and mobility-> anti medium changes

@scenic olive yup but it will have, we are kinda talking about changes in the future here

[scenic olive]

Stb1 doesn’t have 3600 dpm😂

[shy olive]

Believe me , ho-ri will be the same but it has armour, the dispersion will not be that bad increased and it should be at that number on my opinion, AND STB will have an high dpm becouse of it premium shell at 320 dmg per shot and minus 1 sec of relod buff

[stone drum]

Ho-ri isn't really getting nerfed, it's getting a smallish accuracy & traverse Nerf in exchange for 150 hp, an acceleration buff, and better armour compounded with penetration nerfs across the board, even if they only buff it by 10mm Ho-ri will certainly be quite bouncy.

[burnt venture]

The issue with Ho Ri armor "buffs" is the armor design.

The Ho Ri is completely flat. It's a giant box. And currently, most meds and LTs just spam gold at it automatically anyway.

Ho Ri's cheeks getting buffed to 275mm will just stop normal AP rounds, if people are dumb enough to shoot those. I can guarantee that you'll just get gold spammed to death. This isn't an armor buff, it's basically a sad kind of reactive armor.

Losing accuracy and flexibility due to the hull traverse is kind of a big hit for an armor buff that will barely increase bounces.

[strange prawn]

i can already imagine that people will just point and shoot in this tank without even trying to aim ngl 💀

[stone drum]

Still though, before people could quite reliably punch through its front with standard ap, that certainly wont be the case anymore. We also don't know how big the traverse nerfs are going to be.

[twin egret]

So, no point in running regular ammo in the STB-1, just full gold, like on WoT PC essentially. 💀

[burnt venture]

Yeah but the point is, you're not going to be bouncing more shells. You're just going to be eating more premium rounds.

It's reduced damage sure, but with the gun nerfs that's a big hit to the tank's playstyle. It won't play more frontline than before, it will just be less reliable in the firepower department while barely gaining any survivability

Also note that there will be more alpha and DPM across the board next update. while the Ho Ri isn't getting anything

[keen dew]

id love wz113gft to be fully impenetrable frontaly for most premium rounds like amx mle54 but have 20° of hull traverse

[jagged pike]

Bruh why dif tjey nerf the HE pen of the Sconq but not the 215b ?

[nimble zodiac]

I'd assume because they want it that way.

Why would they quickly revert a change they made to FV? They love to double down

[stone drum]

@burnt venture
So the 150 extra hp is gaining barely any Survivability?

If you tacked on 150 hp to virtually any other semi-armoured tank I can garuntee it would dramatically improve Survivability. Ho-ri will have more hp base than it currently has with improved assembly.

[burnt venture]

Ok and that's provided you're completely ignoring the fact that many heavys, meds, LTs, and TDs are gaining alpha and DPM?

Survivability is relative.

[broken kernel]

Good traverse and a snappy gun are 2 of the 3 characteristics that define the Ho-Ri, and now its losing 2 of them and only keeping the godly penetration

[glad cove]

Just wait till they get their hands on the foch 155
Wg will make rly silly

[unique scaffold]

cmon guys dont take it so srsly, the balancing team was just in a silly goofy mood when rebalancing the brits 👶 🍼

[broken kernel]

It’s impossible to make more stupid balance changes than the British balance changes

[stone drum]

.2s of aimtime & .01 dispersion won't suddenly make it not snappy, due to its amazing gun-handling factors. We also don't know how much the traverse will be nerfed, it's unlikely more than 4°.

[fringe quest]

Basically my Favorite TD is ruined now

[whole sigil]

Vickers and stb are very trashy rebalances. Stb gonna be overpovered, everybody gonna use second AP(basically buffing pay to win, it's one of the main reasons why I hate WOT, and prefer wotb) with bigger penetretion but about the same dmg(difference in 10 dmg). And nerf ov vickers has no sence.

[valid cave]

Today is a sad day. Chieftain got buffed and some players already saw it as a superior choice compared to the Super Conqueror, which seems to have been nerfed (?)

[burnt venture]

The thing is, the gun handling on the Ho Ri even now, while good enough, isn't exactly a laserbeam. With how often the tank is moving due to the low alpha, it needs the accuracy to actually hit shots.

With the .1 dispersion nerf you're looking at probably .31+ base dispersion and a slower aimtime to boot, even with the excellent OTM you're still going to miss more shots guaranteed. Ho Ri's gameplay requires a lot of snapshotting around corners / cover in general, and a nerfed traverse + worse base dispersion will hurt that regardless. Your peeks will be longer which gives others (which will most likely be in position) more time to punish you.

Also idk if you knew before but base dispersion is part of the calculation of accuracy OTM. It's not just the OTM factors.

And as I've discussed already, the Ho Ri change is very likely a slight nerf due to just how the tank plays. The changes take away from Ho Ri's playstyle and spec into unecessary stats which won't make a signficant enough difference to make it more competitive.

Ho Ri isn't a heavy TD in the first place, and this change is going to make it worse at doing the current job (hybrid sniping / support) while not making it that much better at doing anything else like tanking frontline. They're trying to make the tier X Ho Ri into the tier 9 Ho Ri II, and it won't work simply due to the armor layout and lack of gun depression.

[whole sigil]

@valid cave no it's two completely different tanks, main competitor of conqueror is e5, or maybe type 71, but chieftain completely different tank. And conqueror is neither nerfed of buffed, he is litteraly the same tank

[clear shuttle]

but premium shells cost credits, something you can grind for free :dadog:

[west ridge]

vickers wasnt even best , but now it become garbage

[stone drum]

It's not a .1 nerf, that would be insane lol, it's .01 from .326 base dispersion to .336 which is the same as the M60.
And yes I'm aware of the misses that occur due to the nature of being forced to snap shots while wiggling in foch (except it has .2 instead of .1 on hull traverse), but that's just that, part of a turretless td's nature. Your also ignoring .317 is still the joint second best 15cm dispersion as of current.

People saying the accuracy is being "removed" is Just ridiculous especially considering it's basically the same difference as not running vents which people consistently claim is a negligible, irrelevant difference.

[tulip sonnet]

My poor 183, is derp no more🥲 (premium hesh is basically same dmg as jg, yes ik, way better pen, but still, 1300 was nice)

[bold dagger]

for practically all tanks in today's balance change notes, it absolutely felt like these were being changed simply for the sake of being changed. i already wrote up my thoughts for each tank privately for the other mods and WG to see, but i'll at least publicly state this: i dislike all of these changes with the exception of the STB-1, and maybe the Mk 6+ Ho Ri

even for the STB-1, i don't like the change on principle, but because it'll be a competitive medium now

Ho Ri, because i think it can pull off the assault TD thing. Synx is right that the gun isn't a laser beam, but i believe there is a way to increase its armor to be better yet not broken, and I think the nerfs it got won't prevent it from being played as it used to be

[sweet skiff]

why nerf the vick

[bold dagger]

and Mk 6, because it was only a buff. i usually don't like heavies getting any sort of buff, but considering the weaknesses the Mk 6 already has, I think it will just make it a more played heavy

[stone drum]

Any chance you would maybe publicly (or privately) share your suggestions? I'm quite curious in all honesty.

Also if you haven't already seen Ho-ri new armour profile, here:

300 heat shouldn't have any problems head-on, angling it may though.

[bold dagger]

no comparison for 300 HEAT? questionable considering its the benchmark for most meds

anyways, i think that armor will do nicely. admitedly i don't see much of a difference here than it was before. maybe the difference will be more obvious when other gameplay factors are added like angling, using gun depression, and how far away the target is

[twilit crystal]

Hori should run enhanced armor tbh

[bold dagger]

its just a massive copy and paste that doesn't need to be sent here. but basically yeah, with all of the other tanks besides the Ho Ri, Mk6, and STB, I pointed out how they were nerfing/buffing the wrong tanks, or that the changes made would not actually make the tank more distinguishable

i can give an example of what I wrote that i don't see a lot of people talking about, the FV4202:

the HESH gun was run to increase DPM. now it gets a DPM nerf?? this is not how you get people to try the HEAT gun. the HEAT gun should get more HEAT pen, that's how you distinguish it from other mediums. no one runs the HEAT gun because the HESH gun is different than other meds and makes it unique. now the tank will just not be played in general

[stone drum]

It should be 270/280 after the changes for the frontal armour.

@bold dagger yes, the Fv4202 changes where quite shameful, especially considering the heat gun got a completely unjustified nerf as basically everything around it got more dpm.

Why would anyone play Fv4202 and suffer the unreliability of hesh when they could play the faster, more accurate leopard 1 and have more dpm on ap than FV with hesh.

[unique scaffold]

i havent seen any dev right here 💀

[past wadi]

Why tf did they nerf the is 4 armor?? They better make the mobility buff worth it

[burnt venture]

The 4202 change was basically a DPM nerf with a minimal aimtime buff, while this useless third HE shell gets 480 alpha on 65mm pen which nobody will even use

[mortal falcon]

Where is it .01, source pls?

Also 4202 is completely ruined, outstanding…

[twilit crystal]

4202 does have armor the leo 1 lacks. The 4202 is definetely gonna beat the leo 1 in a 1v1 atleast. Now OTOH the stb is way superior.

[near lance]

No?

[twilit crystal]

4202 armor is genuinely underrated lol against meds. Its bait for shooting standard when you need to be shooting gold

[acoustic estuary]

If you want armor on a medium get Progetto. Auto bounce angles everywhere.

[solid sequoia]

If you want armor on a medium get an E50M. The rest only have troll armor at best.

[fringe quest]

We don’t know if prog getting nerfed, I swear they better not add that bull mechanic that the mino has

[burnt venture]

The issue with Ho Ri changes I have is that the current tank is very sensitive to any kind of changes.

Ho Ri in a way is more of a medium tank among TDs. It's got a combination of some mobility, some gun handling, some alpha, and some armor. All of those aspects work together to create this kind of hybrid Grille / 263 that snipes at range but can also run second line.

The armor profile being an actual brick with no angles doesn't lend itself to being good at blocking damage. And unless the armor is buffed to 300+, it still won't make too much difference as currently most tanks that don't just have 275+ pen will gold through it.

Removing some mobility and some gun handling IMO will upset how the tank is played. You're a bit more survivable, yes, but you aren't going to be bouncing enough shells to make up for that loss in reliable damage output.

The rebalance isn't substantial enough to change it to a frontline tank, yet it will be enough to hurt the comfort of its current playstyle.

[stone drum]

Fv will have like 3650 dpm with hesh (using cali) after the changes versus leopard rocking almost 4k dpm using AP. Fv stands little chance unless it gets some low pen he shots into the leopard.

@mortal falcon
Here's your source:#tank-balance-discussion message

[river stream]

Vickers Light 105: Basically a light with 100m alpha, just why?. Gun mantlet nerf is alright if they haven't nerf the alpha for some reason.

FV215b (183): Armor changes might be useful in town environments, but why change the HESH and HE alpha?

Chieftain Mk. 6: AP normal... nice but doesn't address the pen value of premium shell
Gives reactive on a farming tank. The only reason I can see this will be used is when the game is already lost and trying to farm for more damage amidst enemies fire.

Was genuinely expecting a mobility buff or even a premium shell pen buff to combat those overly buffed HT.

FV4005: Fair... can easily gets punished when peaking poorly but doesn't address 4k5 clip burst potential. Prefer if reti cal is retained in exchanged for the clip reload boost

Super Conqueror: AP/AP/HE. prem changed to AP?... well comparable dpm to mk6 running calli, overall a pretty nice buff.

[twin star]

these british balance changes are awful

[jagged crown]

Type 71 alpha buff is good

[broken kernel]

Reactive on Mk. 6 is practically useless, the only thing the Mk. 6 needed was a stronger turret and cupola

[crisp zenith]

Worst patch notes I've ever seen ngl most of these doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[burnt venture]

I like how people who are upvoting 4202 basically don't understand that this change is happening to the regular HE, and not the HESH

It's just getting a DPM nerf which will make the tank even less of a threat

You now have a choice between two guns:

• an actual blunderbuss with HEAT and regular DPM
• HESH gun with super random 480 alpha HE, but nerfed DPM compared to even now
  Tank will look like an absolute joke next to the STB

[clear shuttle]

which it might get when it receives a PBR change
which i feel is the reason why they didnt change it much this time

[sharp berry]

I agree, reactive armor is almost used by newbies and average players but for 55%er and above players has no use at all. The mk6 needs a better armor or a HP buff.

[broken kernel]

Every single medium will be a joke compared to STB-1 and TVP (current TVP)

[river stream]

STB-1: No point in running normal ammo, prammo dealing 10 less damage than normal is just dumb. AP/AP/HE best loadout

Type 71: unnecessary alpha increase and the nerfs are basically worthless for the AP/AP/HE loadout it gets.

Ho-Ri Type III: 150hp buff which is handy, armor buff might be useful for more troll bounces but still a box profile.
Worse traverse but better crossing capability... fair
Gun getting less accurate and having longer aim time is pretty bad for the buff its getting.

Overall a buff to the Jp tanks
While Brits are getting a rebalance disguised as downright nerfs on some tanks.

[burnt venture]

buffing alpha on regular HE rounds aren't buffs. They're insults lmao

[pine plinth]

my beloved chief is perfect as she is 🫡🫡

[twin egret]

It isn't workable bait if you know where to shoot and use. The Leo 1 outright beats the fv4202 in a 1v1. I don't think the 65mm hesh can even pen the front of it, let alone that the regular hesh dpm is practically the same as the Leo 1 in 10.3, combine with how the Leo 1 has the slight HP advantage and better view range now

[twilit crystal]

you assume both players won't move. I said in a brawl the 4202 should win as I expect the leo to bounce a shot or

[unique scaffold]

Idk what planet you’re on. The s conq is getting a huge nerf and it ain’t gonna be as good

[acoustic estuary]

Why is everyone saying a huge nerf? It’s getting more dpm for some pen less. It’s rather a small one or even a fair one. Lol? The dpm was mediocre imo all it’s gonna do is make it even more a heavium.

And if you want that HE pen badly then take 215b. One has armor but lacks HE pen the other doesn’t have armor ( and will have even less ) but has a nice he.

[river stream]

I see the prammo change from apcr - ap as a buff (unless its typo at wg part)
you wont be able to pen meds side wiht 60 HE pen but that wont kill sconq.

[stone drum]

If the Fv is firing hesh you could expect the same thing, it's not a given so I wouldn't include it.

[burnt venture]

FV215B could've also used a pretty decent OTM values buff. A tank with no armor like that needs better than .15

[teal crystal]

I was right about the Japanese getting any changes, mostly positive while the UK tree just got rebalanced (destroyed overall)

I don't have high hopes for the french tree but high expectations for the chinese tree as I don't see many Chinese tank players in T10

[acoustic estuary]

I doubt B-C gets hard hammer’ed ( then again we’ve been surprised on some yet ) 50b will be their main focus with maybe foch 155 too as foch seem always a target for changes 🤷‍♂️

[teal crystal]

watch them change the shell type from AP to APCR
APCR prammo to HEAT --> BC

[broken kernel]

I already run full prammo on Ho-Ri, now im gonna run full prammo on STB-1

[scenic olive]

They gonna demolish the 50b😭

[stone drum]

It already has heat prammo?

[teal crystal]

oof I haven't played it in a while

[past vale]

Praying on autoloader's downfall 🙏 smoking that FV4005 pack today, 10kmh reverse + reticle cal no more lmao. Still have to see TVP and 50B getting some love.

But why doesn't WG remove 215B and Vickers at this point, who is complaining about those 2 tanks being broken?

[stone drum]

50b doesn't deserve to get trashed. The French autoloaders (with the exception of bourrasque) are the least toxic autoloaders in the game.

@unique scaffold you realize if 50b had 2.5s interclip it would have 8477 dpm.

[unique scaffold]

we have to rely on super speed boost on 4005, but this thing is not good without reticle cal, i dont know what is wg thinking, its a big box with no armour, i wouldnt be suprised if the 50b get 2.5 second interclip or tvp alpha increased, tbh this suck

[waxen osprey]

The 4005 does not deserve to full clip someone across the map with retical. it shouldn't even be able to accurately hatchsnipe someone over and over with its massive clip.

[unique scaffold]

its really important since it got 4.1 sec of aiming tile and .323 despersion, you'll likely to miss especially in the back of the map

[past vale]

You can yolo shotgun people for 1600, that's the problem.

[waxen osprey]

Yes, because you AREN'T supposed to be able to remove 1640 HP in 5.4s, and do it accurately across the map. That's just complete imbalance. If it wants such a massive clip potential, it can't be as accurate as a HoRi

[stone drum]

yeah ignore that it is a completely massive paper tank destroyer.

@void siren the grille isn't nicknamed the "barn" lol.

[void siren]

The grille:

[void siren]

Fv4005 is sadly in the bunch of “wipe half your hp in one clip”

There comes a certain point of absurdity where a tank can deal its entire hp bar in a single clip

[stone drum]

Yes but unlike the rest, fv is vulnerable, can't get away, and has rather derpy accuracy.
TVP can just clip & dip, Yoh is really just a big alpha gun, and T57 has the ability to just pump clip after clip out.

[waxen osprey]

My man, I don't see which part of the 4005 has bad accuracy. Sure the on movement/rotation/turret rotation isn't great, but you should be more or less standing still while dumping your clip, not expecting your shots to hit full on the move. Guess what, its accuracy is better than ALL the hard hitting tank destroyers in tier 10, with exceptions being WZ-113GFT (by a bit), and the grille/hori (which are meant to be accurate as part of its playstyle)

[void siren]

The m-vi-yoh utilizes the sheer power of dpm and gun soft stats to be viable

The 50b and fv4005 break the 50% ht hp barrier

The t57 and kranvagn utilize the power of either powerful clips or just dumping shots on you after the clip runs out.

Out of the three, people hate the 50b and fv4005 simply because they can deduct more than half the hp of everything - even the maus

And yes, it should require a bit more effort to dump clip, or the fv4005 should lose spall

Imo the kranvagn is the most egregious

[zenith steppe]

I really do think autoloaders have gotten to the point where they’re toxic to the gameplay as @waxen osprey has said. The ability to be able to delete half an opponent’s hit points is kinda ridiculous while having other pretty strong trait (4005 for example has decent accuracy with workable mobility unlike 183). Their effective dpm is quite high which kinda promotes yoloing to just dump one clip. A longer intraclip (as they used to have) and less shells reduced this ability so players had to think about their plays. The TVP is a good example of an imbalanced autoloader. Being able to deal 1200 while having mobility is just ridiculous as opponents can’t even fight back properly

[stone drum]

1. In your message you did infact mention "4.5s" without specifying further.

Neither Batchat nor Foch have toxic clip potential at 930 in 5.6 & 1000 in 3.8s on an incredibly inflexible td. For batchat a leopard a can literally do 720 in the same amount of time.

As for AMX-50b it may have a rather large clip, but that's balanced out by its tremendous 8.4s intraclip which gives you plenty of time to escape, not to mention its a massive paper tank that you can HE quite easily.

your also stating alot of these intra-clip figures with clip booster on, which is kinda misleading, as that's similar to giving the reload of single shot guns with adrénaline on.
Fv has 7.5s base clipping time & T57 a 5s base clipping time.

The mistake that VK made was literally exposing himself & using his only repair kit even when two Fv4005 where literally proxy spotted right there.

Finally for the Fv4005 you comparing the accuracy with double food + vents which literally nobody runs on FV (atleast not normally) which is quite deceiving. Once you remove spall food and vents & then factor in after-shot dispersion you realize it isn't the accurate.

@void siren to be fair clips have gotten bigger as tanks have gotten seemingly ever increasing amounts of HP.

[void siren]

And to kinda support the argument I don’t think any actual conscious human being would use the derpy 120mm on the m-vi-yoh if they wanted to win

The clip damage is still egregious though - tier 9 tanks don’t even have that horrifying of a clip ratio against tanks a tier down

[stone drum]

AMX 50 120 can kill some full health tier 8s In a single clip... lol... using ap...

[zenith steppe]

Either way, the changes to the 4005 aren’t bad. At least the lack of consumables gives other tanks a fighting chance.

@hearty steeple yeah I would rather that too but at least some changes have been made.

[fickle light]

FV215B: breathe
WG: yea you gonna get nerfed

[hearty steeple]

It's a nerf that doesn't directly address the issue of large dmg potential in a very short burst time. Most players will struggle more with it and that's great. I think they should have changed intraclip directly instead.

[vestal basalt]

A tanks that don't have too much player play and they continue make it more rare to fought one in battle 💀

[stone drum]

Literally every tank has been massively Buffed since 2016, that's irrelevant.

Honestly if they just remove the clip consumable & nerf tvp slightly things would be largely fine. Better yet just revert all autoloader to pre-9.1

@burnt venture 1200 clip damage and 7s total intra-clip would be hilarious in today's meta without good dpm. However if they reverted both AMX-50b & T57 entire to their ancient state I can garuntee you they would become Irrelevant.

[burnt venture]

What's not irrelevant is autoloaders became way more awful to play against than any other tank.

No matter how you buff a single shot tank it works very differently from an autoloader

Ah yes, "1200 clip damage in 7s isn't enough", like that isn't already just going to do fine if you have hands. DPM rightfully should be low just for the ability to do that. We shouldn't have autoloaders being able to do this with 2.8k, 3k DPM. That's just garbage

[stone drum]

I said to their ancient state lol. Which would give them both about 2000-2100 hp, worse accuracy, and considerably worse dpm.

and yes I could do fine with worse intraclip, I had zero problems getting all four shells with the previous 50b on target.

Oh and yeah, I only have one really functional hand/arm.

[zenith steppe]

The intra-clip times are what is really game breaking. Being able to dump massive amounts of damage while being able to poke for less time is really not fun to play against. Longer intraclip reloads wouldn’t make tank irrelevant, just a different level play-style. A toon running two autoloaders is just unfair to tanks who get stuck in bad situations. I myself have run double batchat and with the clip-dump consumable being able to unleash 1800dmg in 4 seconds is pretty unfair. The effective dpm on these tanks are much higher than say a 140 with its laughable alpha. An auto loader can clip these tanks while losing much less in return.

[main tulip]

I really don't mind the autoloaders in their current state, the only problem is how popular they are. It's equivalent to having 2 183s and a Jageroo per side on Castilla

[burnt venture]

Lmao T57 gun handling hasn't changed since the beginning. And current 50B gun handling is miles worse than the original.

The DPM before 4 shells / shell reload booster also was still very high. Both T57 and 50B still had almost 3k.

Not sure what you understand, but there certainly were NO complaints about T57 nor 50B before 9.1 or upon release. They would still be very competitive now simply because the autoloader mechanic is that powerful. There are people here who would be very happy to play original 3 shot 50B and have a no superconsumables T57

And this is before we even get into how stupid it is to have armored autoloaders like T57, Kran, Yoh, etc.

And then Mino which is a whole nother disaster

[stone drum]

the 9.1 state would be perfectly fine, I wish they would revert autoloaders to their old state I'm honestly sick of this heat they get now WG screwed them up.

50b gun handling is roughly the same as when It was first added, they eventually Fortunately Buffed it though. Remember the Original tanks Aren't the same as the tanks as most people know them.

[unique scaffold]

are you interested in participating to a nuclear program? y seem to have so much knowledge

[teal crystal]

jesus, some people need to chill and understand that WG will destroy Tier 10 like they did to low tiers in update 5.5, please don't take these changes seriously because they'll still go through with it regardless of player input/feedback

[leaden elm]

People are enjoying and people are suffering, this is nothing more than normal. When you been derp by other tank, you'll sure feel bad, but in opposite, if you are the one doing that you feel enjoyable.

[stone drum]

@unique scaffold what?

[strong basin]

thats overpowered

[clear shuttle]

not at the time

[wicked flume]

I think183 should not weaken its accuracy.

[fair pebble]

Really nerding the 183??? That was not needed at all!

[south patrol]

Why are people in favor of changing STB-1? I don't understand. STB-1 will ruin the game. 😦

[lean siren]

Chieftain mk6 & M60 are slightly changed… WG has always said they will never change the specs of premium tanks that’s why they invented collector tanks that may see their specs be changed…

Is WG lying…

For the oldest who do remember the Kpz70 évent when the tank was a reward to the very best players of the server and it’s legendary camo also rewarded to the very very best, WG said this will never be sold again. Same with Is-2 Sh camo…

It is very disappointing for those who purchase huge amount of gold to buy a tank that will change in a couple of weeks/months.

GG WG still the best way to encourage customers.

[simple wharf]

One question: Super Conq premium ammo change to AP?

[shell heath]

my 215b.. why WG whyyyy 😭 i just got it a month ago and its gonna go downhill from here its near perfect rn hull armor nerf understandable.. but turret.. nahhh

[gloomy patio]

LOL

[wooden lynx]

You're forgetting the fact that the 4005 is getting reverse speed nerf to 10 km/h + the traverse is already decent at the tank

[honest ingot]

what on earth are the devs smoking for making Vickers light's alpha lower, it's already losing it's view range wg cmon pls

[jagged raptor]

the hesh gun also lost dpm on 4202

[unique scaffold]

Thankfully it will still have like 3.9k DPM using hesh.

[real bison]

fun fact: the backlash from the Kpf 70 being sold again is why the 50TPP and Ritter will never be sold for gold/money. We may see re-run events, though.

Plus, WG have never stated that they won’t change premiums. They reserve the right to in the EULA, but don’t like to due to the Type 59 incident on WoTPC, which saw the community half implode when they (justifiably) nerfed the Type 59. Since then, WG has refrained from nerfing any premium tanks. In my opinion, this vastly hinders balance, since WG just doesn’t want to nerf premiums in fear of backlash from the community - even though it’s healthy for the game in the long term. I’d rather have more players playing balanced tanks, it’s more fun for everyone.

[waxen osprey]

Plus, if premiums are untouched, and regular vehicles are buffed, power creep ought to happen

[lean siren]

It has been admitted multiple time that the premium véhicules can only been buffed whereas the collector ones could be nerfed, during official presentations and on the support website. I suggest you to read the legal policy to know more… or to ask to the support doing a ticket. Of course if it has changed, we would have been informed…

[fathom glacier]

Because chieftain mk6 is not premium tank. It’s enriched tank.

[lean siren]

It is indeed. The way how the credit coefficient provides credits doesn’t matter.

[violet island]

you don't even own your acc, wg can certainly nerf prems

[lean siren]

You are absolutely right buddy, the problem is not the possibility of doing it of course WG can do it, the problem is that their communication indicates the contrary.

[stable gulch]

Yeah, but you should keep in mind that its often an actually rather small group that complains about prems being nerfed. The problem is that they are loud enough

[lean siren]

TBH, I really don’t care about premium being nerfed: I got M60, Chieftain mk6, Super Conq.. and so many premium/collector tanks for free so that to me it doesn’t really matter.
I have never paid for a collector/premium tier 10 tank and won’t do it because of this possibility of seeing it nerfed a week or two after the purchase… and the offers are always tempting despite the fact that they are expensive (this is we’re WG shines, ngl). It is a possibility to see the tank getting nerfed and because I don’t trust WG communication I don’t use the wallet anymore. TBF WG doesn’t want my money, they prefer new comer’s money, but I don’t know why… a green is a green, a € is a €, a $ is a $, a £ a £…

[unique scaffold]

the m60 and the chief arent being nerfed, same with the 047 last update, which actually got buffed. wg won't nerf prems, only buff them. last time they nerfed a prem they got purged.

[final warren]

WG has the right to rebalance any tank, whether that's a nerf or a buff. If I was WG, I wouldn't hesitate to nerf premium tanks. They are just afraid to do it.

There's no reason to not nerf premium tanks. I'd rather spend money and know that the latest and greatest OP tank won't ruin the game. Frankly it's ridiculous that they are afraid to outright nerf premium tanks. It's causing major balancing issues throughout the game, which is a lose lose situation for everyone.

[glad cove]

They are afraid to nerf premium tanks after they nerfed the type 59 and they got swamped by complaints and demands for refunds

[silk root]

I wonder if a solution to fix the autoloader meta would be to simply change the mm to only allow two (maybe three) auto/autoreloaders per team. Idk how much that would do, but it'd at least limit the total spam

[final warren]

Or they could just make autoloaders balanced

[shadow elbow]

vickers light srill good

[glad cove]

I take back some of what I've said
The vickers light isn't being fully nerfed it just looks bad on paper
So after calculation the vickers will be gaining about 70-80 dpm
But the dmg per shot is just lesser how ever the mantlet has been changed so that it plays more like the average light tank

[burnt venture]

The 70-80 DPM won't matter at all with that kind of alpha nerf.

Time on target in a light tank is extremely limited in the first place, and you're losing all the armor you currently have with no other gains in mobility or concealment or viewrange. The armor nerf is good because this is a light tank, but there needed to be other utility buffs for this to be a good change.

It's gone from a slightly sneakier medium to what's basically going to be essentially a 140 that gives up some HP and DPM for concealment and gun depression. It's going to be an absolute nightmare to fight anything that's mobile and has armor.

In general, 300 alpha on a med is kind of a joke. And then you consider that prem rounds are going to do 250, 260 damage, with only 300 base pen... you can just have your 4k DPM at that point

[pliant root]

The mantlet nerf was uncalled for

[rough sandal]

to fix tier 10s they should remove it and redo it again from scrap

[glad cove]

Light tanks aren't rly supposed to have a lot of alpha and armor as they are LIGHT tanks
The Sheridan is simply an exception due to the gun being big (but I know the vickers has a 105mm so it should have 105mm alpha) but the vickers is the only light to have more than 6 degrees of gun depression which gives it an advantage over other lights naturally
And still light tanks do not deserve nor need armor to perform well (gun depression is rly important tho as that's the main reason why the wz 132 1 is underperforming)

[glossy quarry]

Yall should calm down with all these changes, we already know that wg doesn’t know how to balance tanks, but omg, calm down, it’s just a game

[vital zealot]

True

[rough sandal]

it's world of tanks, you except calm players?, this is a toxic community after all

[faint birch]

Help! Kv-is or kv2?

[burnt venture]

They removed the armor on it without compensating with more mobility, or viewrange, and then went for what I would consider to be an overall nerf on the gun as well.

Nobody's advocating for armor, but if you remove that part of the tank there needs to be some other things going for it. Vickers already isn't that fast, it's got one of the worst power to weight ratios and the standard 65 kph top speed. What made that acceptable was the turret armor + alpha so you felt safer peeking against targets.

If you make such a huge light tank completely paper, there should definitely be buffs to utility.

[pliant root]

well we should strive for the impossible anyways @faint birch kv1s, go get is7

[glad cove]

True dat

[solid crag]

Fv215b is my favourite tank, they can't mess it up like that...

[upbeat depot]

[waxen osprey]

Speaking of KV1S, I remember the good old days where I did not know what I was doing but absolutely adored the KV1S

[pallid forum]

I'm so sad about fv4005

[olive raven]

They nerfed 215b and Vicker Light so bad those tanks will become F tier nxt update

[summer cliff]

I reserched now fv 215b and now wtf

[spice birch]

You have until october to enjoy it

[waxen osprey]

I don't mind if they make the top speed 40-42kmh so it can become more of a heavium, but a 2kmh top speed buff is wayyy too little

[thorny timber]

Grille:

[unique scaffold]

.

[dusk willow]

hmm, i don't mind the raw dpm buff to the super conq, but the HE pen nerf on a british heavy kinda sucks

[tiny yoke]

Bro ppl r going to spam prammo on stb

[dusk willow]

yep. its gonna be a ho-ri with 11 degrees of gun depression and a miniature turret

[tiny yoke]

That’s good for me cus I’m grinding the stb line

[dusk willow]

for the type 61 you dont even need to get the tracks and engine. i just popped a premium account when i wanted to play it and went straight for the turret, gun, then tank

[tiny yoke]

Ik also I got a master on my frost type 61 game

[summer cliff]

Bro I just finished grinding the Fv 215b i can enjoy this tank only untill october and i need to see if the turret armor nerf is big or small , the hull armor is trash anyways

[tiny yoke]

Gl bro

[glad cove]

The vickers isn't rly being nerfed its actually being reworked so that it plays more like the other lights

[gusty linden]

Hi

[pine plinth]

it’s definitely a nerf. having more alpha is always better at a given DPM

[azure wraith]

whats the best light to play when update comes out? currently grinding the tier 7 amx light

[quartz snow]

yeah but thats what made the vickers somewhat unique, admittedly the mantlet nerf was needed but the damage did not need to be nerfed.

its basically a huge and bad T-100 LT now. Anything that Vickers L can, the T-100 LT can now.

and dont say "but its reload is faster now". Its dpm is basically the same. pre 10.3 (2800) post 10.3 (2850), absolutely nothing

[thorny timber]

depends on how the batchat and wz132-1 are rebalanced (the final lights which havent got a rebalance yet)

[glad cove]

Vickers has more gun depression so it's more flexible sooooo

[slow mantle]

Let’s say something about jge100 and 183 now. I totally don’t see a point to play 183 when there’s a so much better and similar tank to it. The jge100 gets the have similar dmg to 183 with the new consumable and it’s so much better armoured, reload and accuracy. 183 used to be fun with HESH shell dat make half of the Hp disappear from enemy but now… just delete the line would be better if that’s the final tank balancing

[azure wraith]

I was just thinking the same thing, why aim so hard with inconsistent HESH to do what jag can do with tung and 290 AP pen? Hit the track with HESH its over, hit the track in jg u get a lil track dmg bonus

[quartz snow]

At the cost of being a bigger target, not good acceleration, bigger spots to HE, easier to spot and slightly worse dpm. The depression and HEP is nice but theyre quite situational, not enough to convince me to play Vickers over T-100.

[upper jolt]

The chieftan mk 6 changes are truly one of the changes of all time

[unique scaffold]

We have to wait. T-100 isn't getting changed a lot and Vickers/sheri are getting ruined. We have to see the batchat and wz changes. I recommend you go for the Leopard 1 as it will be phenomenal after 1.03.

[tidal sluice]

I'm glad the IS-4 is Bing needed a bit, but the gun didn't need a nerf

[azure wraith]

bet, thanks

[gleaming apex]

ilham_0273#0 has been warned.

[teal crystal]

🤨

[drowsy plaza]

In Blitz, Light Tanks really cannot do proper light work due to the small maps, and relatively larger viewing ranges -- some heavies can occupy areas and completely lock down everything except the red lines - so Lights do need some semblance of Armor and a semi-decent gun. As @burnt venture points out there needs to be some sort of compensation in terms of mobility for the nerf. As it stands, it would appear that several meds will be able to do the Vickers former role better in 10.3

[drowsy plaza]

The Hype 59 was never directly nerfed since it was sold. It was original (four days prior to it's initial sale) released with +/-2, before it was sold it was changed to +1/-2 (remember this was back in the +/-2 MM Days) and had its RoF lowered. The removal of +/-2 MM, was an indirect Nerf to all of the Pref MM tanks, most of which where compensated by buff's --the Hype and Panther M10 however where never given any sort of meaningful compensation.

[unique scaffold]

wait whats the difference between enriched and premium
like arent enriched vehicles just techtree tanks with the lil credit-making buff thing bought wit gold

so enriched is just a way for wg to hide the fact that they dont keep their promises.

[gleaming apex]

mesmermystery#0 has been warned.

[drowsy plaza]

WG's saying so... Honestly the only reason most of us who have been here a long time can tell, is years ago WG promised never to sell tier 9 and 10 Premium Tanks... So they sell Enriched or Collectors in 9 and X.

[pliant summit]

I mean skill should matter in this game autoloader guns feels like the opposite for many tanks except some like fv4005 and bc light tank i think is an exception due to lack of armor i hope they dont screw the french so hard tho bc it can be a sole reason from killing the game to making them unusable

[olive raven]

U high ? Decreased Mantlet armor, less avg dmg by alot, it's the tanks only main strength and they nerfing it to the fact that they are destroying it

[glad cove]

I believed that wg was nerfing Vick into oblivion but after research I realized it isn't going to be diabolical to try and drive I mean it can't be worse than the wz 132 1

[queen geyser]

Keep in mind that we dont know the wz 132 1 changes

[glad cove]

@queen geyser the only change the wz 132 1 needs is 6 degrees of gun depression and seeing how the obj 260 didn't get anymore gun depression means that the wz will most likely get abysmal buffs to th areas it doesn't need

[novel thorn]

Is the 57 heavy going to be viable at all in the next update?

[queen geyser]

Yup and if u follow that logic Vickers will be worse

[glad cove]

@queen geyser ok if this change of all changes is that bad stop playing the game

[ancient rampart]

Yes

[chilly token]

its dpm actually got buffed

[pine plinth]

by 50 😐

[unborn apex]

Peeking more for 50 extra dpm with lesser dps and turret armor isnt a buff imo

[main tulip]

They should leave the gun depression as is. Buffing weaknesses and nerfing strengths is how you end up with a boring game

[glad cove]

The wz 132 1 sucks and I hear other skilled/experienced players complain about how bad it is
And buffing and nerfing isn't for fun it's for balance
Every tank is supposed to have something unique that makes it fun in its own way

[orchid grove]

You’re missing the whole point of balance. The end goal of balance is fun. You know what’s perfectly balanced? Everything having the exact same stats. You know what’s not fun? Everything having the exact same stats.

If you balance for balance’s sake and lose sight of fun, then you’ve totally lost the plot

[unborn apex]

Just please dont ruin the bc wg, it would be perfectly fine even if they leave it as it is and change some ammo type or other bs

[glad cove]

@orchid grove I want you to fully UNDERSTAND what I've said in my last reply and understand what you've said
(Realize that I didn't imply that everything should have the "exact same stats")

[teal crystal]

been saying this about the grille too, no one will want to frontline with 580 alpha, every other tank will have 600+ and more mobility to easily take out the grille

the buff the grille should have gotten should have been increased camo rating and ammo capacity

[orchid grove]

You missed Mercy’s point though. Mercy (and I included) are against buffing the gun depression on the WZ-132-1. The -5 gun depression is a notable weakness of the tank. Buffing it to 6 removes the variety provided by that weakness. The way WZ should receive a buff is in one of its strengths, either mobility, camo, or DPM. Not gun depression

[civic turtle]

jag e100 is more dangerous to face with tungsten its bad news when u get caught .

[unborn apex]

Why even pick grille over ho ri anymore, why pick T100 over 140 or 907, why pick any LT, MT over 50m or leo or stb, why pick IS4 over type or 183 over jg, ruining characteristics of a specific tank and pushing it into mediocrity can easily be concluded as not a well thought out decision. Whole playerbase is complaining about the changes yet the ambiguity exists wether they'll be fully implemented or not, even the changes mentioned are completely vague for most part.

[glad cove]

@orchid grove So if wg gives wz 132 1 gives more dpm what's the point when I can't shoot a tank I can't physically aim my gun at
If wg gives it speed it's easier to run away when you can't shoot vehicles(but oh wait It can't pen heavies so it's useless on heavy side)
If wg gives it camo it still has to poke out of cover to shoot so it will be vulnerable for a point no matter what(it also already has a mechanic for its camo)
The lack of the depression on the gun stops it from using the gun

[teal crystal]

the playerbase lacks some intelligence, maybe you were here to see update 5.5 roll through with a mixed reaction, but they still went through with it, just proves that update 10.3 will be another update 5.5 where all low tier tanks had their fun modules and characteristics removed so that new players could enjoy their terrible tactics, the same thing will happen in Tier 10

[main tulip]

The goal is to reward the player when they manage to overcome the tank's weakness (lack of gun depression).
Currently, the tank is bad because the reward is too small compared to how difficult it is to overcome such weakness, which is compounded with its terrible penetration and gun handling.

If the tank actually moved faster than the majority of mediums (as it should, being a light tank), then the player would be provided with far more opportunities to work around the lack of gun depression.

Imo, the bad gun depression should remain the tank's main weakness, with one of the other secondary weaknesses being removed (tendency to catch on fire, poor gun handling, mobility)

[glad cove]

I'll leave it at this,
There isn't even any real reward for having to fully expose a tank with no armor that only hits for 330 and can't hit more than once per poke or it will die
(The wz 132 1 dies so easily because it hasn't got the depression that will allow the vehicle to stay in DECENT protection)
Every trade in the 132 1 is critical because it almost always takes dmg because it's too easy to snap a shot at and pen because it has to fully expose the whole of the tank on most maps

[main tulip]

which is why we're suggesting to increase/make a reward (?)
No one is saying the WZ-132-1 isn't bad, lol. It's just that the gun depression is the wrong thing to buff

[quick lichen]

I was thinking the same thing with the 121 line and 34-3

[glad cove]

💀💀💀

[teal crystal]

T-34-3 is in desperate need of a reload buff, the Chimera has everything the T-34-3 wants to be and super consumables

[orchid grove]

WZ is a tank that trades gun depression, armor, and pen in exchange for speed, camo, and DPM.

That is the fundamental role of the tank in the game.

The solution is NOT to make the tank closer to other tanks in playstyle. If you want that extra degree of gun depression, play the object 140. If you want to buff the WZ, the solution should be to play into the things that make it unique by buffing one of its strengths. Just because you don’t like, or can’t deal with that fundamental niche doesn’t mean it should go away.

[quick lichen]

I mean they could nerf the chimera if it wasn’t a money maker

[mortal falcon]

Make a new tank thats literally a T-34-3 but 3x better in every way, free money

[glad cove]

💀💀💀

[frank bone]

do anyone know how much dpm 260 gain?

[unique scaffold]

calculate it

[final warren]

Funny thing is, most mediums are actually more maneuverable than light tanks. IDK why that is, but WG doesn't like making light tanks fast.

The WZ 132-1 will likely get a DPM buff to 3,800 and a mobility buff

[frank bone]

thx for the help u were very useful🤓

[unique scaffold]

np mate

[clear shuttle]

with rammer im p sure

[queen geyser]

This should be with rammer and double food, since I calculated around 3128.8 (With rammer and double food)

[quick lichen]

“I don’t have a fact or logic based counter argument”

[queen geyser]

The fundamental role of the tank ? If you speak about light tanks sure, if WZ would be the only light tank sure, I would see how the tank would work but this isnt the case

The tank has DPM, very nice one actually and a neat feature

Speed ? Well it has the second best top speed of tier X lights but worse Power to weight and effective HP/t then the others besides Vickers, so I dont know if you would count that as strenght being 2 km faster then the average light but being far more slower in hp/t
Camo is anyway here again, its the same as other lights ofc sheri is worse and T100LT better but yea pretty basic here again

The tank features actually nothing the tank has no standart pen (worse then other lights but they are similar bad) it dosnt have high alpha either cause that were sheri and Vickers comes in, armor is non existent, the aimtime is nice ig but you trade gunhandling for that and well no gundepression

The problem of the tank is not the niche its in, the problem is that in the niche of "Is very fast but very good dpm with mid alpha" are very good contenders for example Leo1 or 140, I dont see how I would I ever play a WZ132 over a Leo1 when the WZ has no positive aspects over those (besides a neat feature) and really high downsides (pen, gundepression) so yea, I would actually give the tank gundepression probably because what other changes would make it valiable if Leo1 gets almost 4k dpm ?

[unique scaffold]

I've been thinking abt this but is the vickers nerf really gonna murder it? like, wasnt it already outclassed by meds in everyway? it cant get any worse

[quick lichen]

Point proved

[queen geyser]

If Vickers would be the only light out there, it would be still very nice, after all u get a dpm buff and still have a nice gun with good HE pen, good gundepression and mobility to make use of the dpm and actually okay pen for a light

The problem here is that vickers is not the only light, vickers will sit at 300 alpha that brings us to the T100LT, the t100lt will get a dpm buff aswell and will sit I think around 100 dpm behind vickers, iirc, now question yourself what would u rather play, the Vickers has over the t100lt, pen, gundepression and dpm while the t100 has more alpha (ok actually im smiling while typing this its so funky) is faster, is smaller, better gunhandling, has a nice feature so overall probably more tools to get the dpm working

I think when T100LT got released people showed pretty good what this tank can do and I think it was because of: DPM, Speed, The tank model and the gunhandling but I dont exactly see where vickers (that is kinda huge) comes in clutch here

[unique scaffold]

yeah ig ur right. also its pretty weird how a 105mm has got less alpha than a 100mm

rip vik, you wont be missed

[glad cove]

I was trying to talk about how much wz 132 is lacking however people think wz 132 is good and overreacted

[quick lichen]

Lol.

[queen geyser]

The fact that nearly nobody plays this tank is a pretty perfect example for this, during the time that I see a WZ132, I see 5 VZ55 and that says a lot

[glad cove]

Ong

[cedar pollen]

Maus is very nice

[orchid grove]

Gun depression is the thing that would make the least difference. Leo already has -8 gun depression after the patch. Making the gun depression -6 on the WZ does nothing from a relative standpoint. The only way to differentiate it from Leo is to play into one of the things it should do better as a light. Camo, and/or speed, which is the normal trade off between lights and paper meds.

A camo buff would make sense to me, since it synergizes well with the spotting mechanic that makes it go despotted faster, and as a light it should probably be faster too.

[queen geyser]

I would think a camo buff would be actually nice, yea, but yea I kinda want gundepression on this thing, even more since lights are kinda weird where the either have 10 (so very good) or 5 and 6 (so very bad) so why not 7-8 gundepression ? Makes it kinda more special in comparesion to other lights in that matter

[burnt venture]

This "no armor high DPM" role is hilariously oversaturated already next update.

We now have Leo 1, 140, T-100, Vickers LT, and 132-1 all vying for the exact same role.

"New balancing is diverse" and other hilarious jokes you can go tell yourself.

[gleaming apex]

Sopanoob#7920 has been warned.

[orchid grove]

I feel like the fundamental problem is the Leopard.

Leopard simply has literally everything except armor, so it makes everything else obsolete. Highest DPM, highest accuracy, highest alpha, and its faster than everything but the T-100 and WZ. When it’s just outright better than everything else in its class except the one thing you can’t use to balance those other tanks (armor), then it kills your ability to make those tanks diverse

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly the WZ -1 needs better Eff Hp/T and reverse speed. While you can manufacture artificial gun depression using terrain, if you get spotted you are toast in it. Because it takes way to long to get out of that spot. Where most meds with poor depression can zip out.

[glad cove]

The wz 132a actually pairs better with the spotting mechanic than the wz 132 1 mostly due to reload time

[burnt venture]

The entire 132-1 line is just dead.

The whole line has stupidly bad track traverse and terrain resistances for light tanks, no gun depression, and all the tanks tier 8 and below have disappointing alpha combined with mediocre DPM. On an armor-less platform which cannot shoot OTM at all and has very weak modules.

The worst offender is the tier 8 WZ-132. It's literally slower to accelerate and turn than most medium tanks.

Like that line in general has just flopped because the grind is so terrible and the tanks are so terrible for a tier X which is mediocre and hard to play. The tanks just suck and if they don't get any kind of substantial buffs they won't see the light of day any time soon.

[granite pebble]

Would be a shame if WZ had the worst reverse speed and lower end HP/t, resulting in it being overall worse for said role than literally any other light tank aside from Vickers which is equal in mobility.

[stone drum]

What if they gave them overall mobility + camo + viewrange buffs, and maybe a small alpha buff for uniqueness.

[wicked quest]

It is true but we know leo in reality suffers Alot no less due to drivers and the heavy meta I honestly don’t like it’s getting more dpm I feel the only thing Leo needed or actually should be is more penetration and slightly higher alpha in exchange for lower RoF the PC take would have been a good way to take it but not the dpm route

[fringe quest]

The WZ 113 line was the most painful grind in my life in this game, and the 113 is great but any tank below it is hot garbage, and I’m afraid that WG are gonna waste the 113 and just suffered the whole line just to see it wasted

[stone drum]

Leo and suffer in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

[analog basin]

Hey wargaming. Fv4202 need a big armour nerf and fv215b need a big armour buff, what in the world a big heavy tank has medium tank"s armour and a medium tank has the front hull armour that hard to penatrate than lots of heavy tanks ? Only in wotb

[gleaming apex]

peanuttbutt#0 has been warned.

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly WG needs to reduce heavy mobility and reduce view range for all classes but lights and that would make a much better balance between classes.

[nimble umbra]

What update removes E5 big copula?

[drowsy plaza]

Sometime around 2.5 IIRC.

[unique scaffold]

im scared too, i hope they dont ruin it

[twin egret]

I would give WZ-132-1 more of a trollish turret to reflect it's weight. It is the heaviest light tank, but it has less armour than the vickers light, which has a large 120mm slab of armour on front and sides that can bounce 152mm guns

[exotic girder]

I hope the M4 Rev revives a slight mobility or dpm buff and the T34 receives the same hull armor as the T29 or the mobility buff the T30 received

[novel cypress]

Buff armour of CIS-52 LS

[stone drum]

Fv4202 certainly does not need an armour nerf, it's already about to get beaten into the dust

[drowsy plaza]

Nothing in 7-9 will get done of any significant value until the X changes are run through and then trickle down the lines.

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly I think the vast majority of these ‘balance decisions’ are an absolute travesty. Hammering the HESH gun on the 4202 is plain stupid, it appears to be an attempt to limit skilled players who can aim and understand when and why to use HESH. Then the 215b nerf’s are just plain DUMB, because if it’s a significant mobility buff, then it’s becomes a better medium killer, and if the armor is nerfed much it’s a piñata. It’s not that hard to scalp a 215b now even in a medium.

[stone drum]

I love how they think it makes sense for a hesh gun to have a worse reload... like why run hesh if it doesn't really buff your dpm. Its like they are trying to make hesh irrelevant.

[analog basin]

No bro the heat gun will get reload buff omg. The troll turret armour, op hull armour, gun depression, dpm, and the regular HE now 480 alpha with 105mm penatration.... can you image how scary that tank be ?

[signal ledge]

How about a shorter reload time for the Thunder?

[twilit crystal]

the wz 132 should get 420 alpha with a 7s reload. Let it abuse the camo skill and the alpha

[stone drum]

I'm sorry sir, but this is #tank-balance-discussion not #blitz-memes.

The tank is getting trashed, unreliable armour, average dpm on the obsolete heat gun and borderline unplayable dpm on the hesh gun. Oh and yeah, while regular hesh is getting an alpha buff, it's getting an absolutely massive penetration nuke. It will be a mid tank at best, an awful tank at worst.

[teal crystal]

lmao if you don't know how to angle that 105mm of HE will obviously butter your medium/light

[teal crystal]

please don't change T7-9, T7 already got the low tier treatment where a majority of tanks pen doesn't go above 160mm for lights and mediums, heavies have armor to shrug it off and destroyers having their speed nerfed is annoying as HP pools are already small compared to the rest of the tanks of its tier

[tame temple]

is it me or STB is going to have 330 AP alpha AND 320 premium shells' alpha?

[rotund skiff]

yes, 10 hp in between shell one and shell 2

[drowsy plaza]

It brings back the days of pre 3.9 when some of my tanks (Comet, and M46 Patton ran nearly 100% APRC).

[tame temple]

i think thats the issue im trying to say, are we ready yo have tanks that can go full gold like the old days? i mean its disgusting with the hori and old foch let alone a quick firing fast medium..

[rotund skiff]

If/when (after 10.3 rolls out) I get the STB I might just run pramo + HE only, lol

[lunar niche]

Wasn't 215b preemtively nerfed before so that it doesn't become a med killer? Lmao

[gleaming apex]

woftblitzfan#0 has been warned.

__circus___clapped__#0 has been warned.

[mint light]

Why is the Weak Tanks are getting Nerfs

Why is the META Tanks are getting Buffs

Sometimes the game has the worst rebalancing team ngl

[stone drum]

Do ignore the old foch had the same precision as a small child single handedly firing a 10 gauge shot gun.

[next rain]

noice

[unique scaffold]

buff t34-3 pen

[willow elbow]

Give 50b 1.5s reload

[jolly canopy]

Fv215b is crap nowadays

[sweet skiff]

but the hesh (not talking about 183)

[twin egret]

Yeah, then it was the E5's turn to be one, then it received changes, now it's the E6's turn

[olive raven]

Eyoo wtf is that ?

[cold dove]

very interesting tank balances

[nimble zodiac]

<@&481447501690568709> Let's get this dealt with, yes?

[olive raven]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[twilit crystal]

<@&481447501690568709>

[gleaming apex]

error_usernotfound.#0 was banned.

[sweet skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/yeet-lion-king-simba-rafiki-throw-gif-16194362

[teal crystal]

what was it?

[nimble zodiac]

DMs
Aka accept friend request so I can even talk to you -_-

[teal crystal]

send

[sand lark]

@nimble zodiac i swear WeeGee will make grille damage to 500

[shy olive]

Just remove the spall liner from Grille and then trow with out of the game.

[tame temple]

i honestly liked it, now its the same small child but with a nerf gun.

[tame basin]

will grille be german no armor version of ho-ri after the nerf?

[ornate warren]

Seriously bruh remove the spall entirely from the game so we can end this no armor td yolo madness

[sand lark]

Grille purpose is to hit enemies hard, thats the reason it absolutely have no armor

[nimble zodiac]

You say that but the 183 exists. And 183 has some armor

[woven breach]

Give FV4005 2.0 reload

[unkempt quest]

grille has rate of fire, mobility, a huge gun arc, accuracy, penetration and concealment. all that to sacrifice armor. even if the alpha is lowered by 20, which is only a 3% nerf, it won't change much. the playstyle is the same

[civic topaz]

Concealment? Isn’t its camo one of the worst?

[clear shuttle]

yes, it has bad camo so people cant redline and stay unspotted until the very end

[unkempt quest]

53% stationary is still quite a bit. sure you're losing almost all your camo after firing, but you'll be able to hide again soon and smack someone before you get spotted again

[unique scaffold]

Grille has one of the worst Teir X TD camos in the game

[unkempt quest]

that may be true, but it's still good overall
it is enough to make the tank work

[nimble zodiac]

“Grille bad”
Grille:

[clear shuttle]

and after 10.3 i wont be surprised if it stays that way

[tame basin]

is it still worth it to get grille in 10.3 or stop at waffentrager?

[unkempt quest]

grille is a fine tank, and still will be in 10.3, people are overdramatising these changes

[waxen osprey]

Waffle will likely receive the same alpha nerf lol. What AprofessorA said is true tho.

[tame basin]

ok, then grille liine or jageroo line?
im now getting su/isu

[unborn apex]

Jg easy choice, who wont like tungsten on 800 base dmg
Dunno about them being better as it depends on playstyle but they're both really great and easy to grind tanks as well, infact the whole line is. Shouldn't be a bother at all

[tame basin]

how about jpanther & jadgtiger? better than borsig & waffle?

[gloomy patio]

so true, grille is only being completely destroyed, stop overreacting guys

[teal crystal]

yeah but giving it like 580 alpha and more dpm with no camo of course it will get spotted more often and most tanks will have more alpha than it and even if you don't get spotted what kind of players are going to sit out in the open bleeding their HP pools?

[sand lark]

What the hell is the point of Forester camo if it can't do what its role supposed to be

[teal crystal]

which is why I didn't get on board with Grille changes, it needed more camo, not mobility or DpM it was already balanced when the alpha was 640, just a little more pen for reliable sniping and remove reticle calibration, it already has the "best" accuracy in the game along with the Leopard, WG balancing at its best lmao

I wonder what the chinese destroyer will get next change or two, I'm expecting a massive buff as no one plays the chinese trees, medium will be ehhh heavy will also get some small insignificant change

[shy olive]

The grille will be an monster of DPM , its gonna be busted

[sand lark]

Bro are you smoking crack

Old grille literally has 3.5k dpm without its alpha nerf

[clear shuttle]

it was closer to 3.6k iirc

[rich kindle]

Guy's i don't know Why my event and my store is loading my internet connection is good this happen yesterday i try to uninstall and install the game again but did not work pls help me

[shy olive]

580 with 7-8 sec of reload? I would quess it has over 4k dpm, i mean with adrenaline and the module that give you dpm, believe me its gonna be busted

[sand lark]

Your opinion is invalid if you can't calculate dpm

[wooden lynx]

Where did you get these information from?

[violet island]

Wg just realised, that the redline camping playstyle is absolute garbage for the game, smth you have yet to realise I guess

[ember mountain]

what do you guys think about VK90 rebalance in 10.3? good or bad?

so it becomes a better sidescraper, good to know, rip sandbag armor though.

[wooden lynx]

Gun becomes more stable while sidescraping because of combat stabilization mechanic

[shy olive]

Let me give you an example then
Look at the bagder: 460dmg +8sec =3.8kdpm
Grille with 580 dmg and 8 sec of reload ( adrenaline and that module that gives Dpm) im pretty sure its gonna have a lot of dpm grille, not broken but a lot.

[wooden lynx]

The dpm is temporary, unlike the badger that has 3800 dpm with rammer w/o adrenaline.

Grille 15 should've had a Camo buff in exchange of the alpha, or even better an alpha buff back to the 640 it previously had.

Because the camo is so atrocious, it wont get the shells out that easy because of the fact that it will get spotted almost all the time.

[small crane]

Not even close to 4K dpm idk how you calculate the dpm Pricope.....

[analog basin]

Too unnecessary to nerf HT penatration. It already hard to pen eachothers. I can consider it as a buff for german tanks and armoured MT. But why ? They r already balanced

[shy olive]

With gun rammer and adrenaline only give 3.5k dpm? Thats worse...

But think about it, u can shoot 2 shots (1k dmg) than one shot with 640... in the right hands of course

[small crane]

WG looking at the most played tank than the tank with highest winrate (Grille for the example)
WG even considered Grille as toxic tank while in fact its overall stats are horrendous

@shy olive no the -0.7 come from the change, i still not adding gun cali and adren

[wooden lynx]

Getting away while putting out 2 shots is almost impossible to the Grille due to the fact that it's such a massive shoot me tank because it has literally no armour. The alpha and accuracy is what defined the Grille.

Honestly if WG buffed the camo in exchange of the alpha it would've been fine. It was already performing bad and yet they slam a another alpha nerf for a mobility increase in a game with such small maps.

[twin egret]

Overall good. The front hull got a complete buff, though we still don't know by how much

[shy olive]

You have your point and im totally with you, the camo its crap, but i would say in the right hands (60%-70%+ wn8) the grille will be fine, it will not be an easy tank to play, im confident that the playstyle will change... the grille it should slap hard for a mistake but dont stay at the redline all the match, for me the change its on good side

[wooden lynx]

As if the tank performs well with 65%+ wr players, it's one of the worse performing Tier 10's with players with 65% winrate or more.

So your arguement isn't really valid if the statistics proves that the Grille is one of the worse performing tds.

[lament kettle]

49% wr

[nimble zodiac]

And yet 183, the most popular tank, has a slightly worse WR

[lament kettle]

49% wr is still 49% wr

[nimble zodiac]

Okay? And?

Maybe WG is "nerfing" Grille just so people would stop flooding matches with them

[plain wagon]

I think people hate 49%er, 50% is their line considering Overpower

[small crane]

????
No way (Grille 15 dpm, recalculated)
27% comes from 7% gun rammer + 20% consum
DPM is 3,5K wo 20% from consum

[oak solar]

My events, the store and the clan search tab is infinitely loading for me, i reinstalled the game and now even the loading screen is loading forever

[glad cove]

Grille will always be popular because it's has the stigma of being German and a td so it looks attractive to new players

[rich kindle]

I think is a bug @oak solar

[clear shuttle]

it’ll always be popular because its a funny looking tank with a funny looking gun

[green pasture]

wargaming needs to nerf kv-2
joined a gravity mod match,got one shotted 3 times from kv-2 and this tank ruins the whole level VI matchs

[stone kindle]

Skill issue

[dense prairie]

Smasher

[ancient rampart]

It’s extremely inaccurate (worse than the 183) and has an extremely long reload to match not to mention its armor is barely usable to the point that another KV-2 can pen your turret with HE

[inland talon]

bruh why are they making the 183 way even worse, nerfing the hesh mm make it not so fun of a tank destroyer, its already slow as heck.

[ancient rampart]

The HESH was barely nerfed
They nerfed it’s alpha by 90 points so instead of 1300 alpha it’s 1210 barely anything

The tank actually got buffed overall

[rich kindle]

@green pasture Hahahaha

[green pasture]

yes,it has a low accuracy
but i still dont think that is a balanced tank.Im tired of getting one shot every match that has kv2,ofc that's your opinion and i respect that,but i still dont think it is balanced bcs it has long reload and low accuracy

[ancient rampart]

The only thing good about it is the ability to do massive damage

If you remove that then the tank is straight up unusable unless they buff practically everything else about the tank

Just learn to avoid the KV-2 and let the team deal with it
Or learn to make yourself a hard to hit target

[unique scaffold]

Why super conqueror got nerf hesh

[green pasture]

mate,i know how to play against kv series,i am playing this game for years and i dont usually play on level V-VI
i am going for t-43,and you know t34-85 is super fast but any kv-2 will be able to turn his turret in just 1.5 seconds or some number near that.even i turn around his tank,he can still shoot me in closer and from long distances thats why i am complaining about kv-2

[ancient rampart]

Clearly not if you’re complaining about a KV-2

[inland talon]

the kv2 is not even dangerous as you think it is

[jovial aurora]

sooooo..... when will we be able to pen the front of the fv215b with HE of e100? 💀 💀

[ancient rampart]

Well the lower plate is getting nerfed so soon potentially

[buoyant adder]

is5 tungsten?

[unique scaffold]

I hope they don't massacre my beloved french tanks
Especially Foch
Having only 500 alpha with 155 mm gun is ridiculous

[ripe flicker]

In tanks the kV 2 is very powerful

[vale dagger]

#coming-soon message there is no vote emotes under IS-7. is it too late to fix?)

[inland talon]

the waffle is better than grill 15 after this update with 600 alpha

[stone drum]

Nah they should just give it an exactly 10s reload for 640 alpha. Remove spall-liner & give it the old (and I mean really old) mobility.

[icy linden]

is 183b got buffed? idint get the change it got

[tame basin]

Why weegee decided to add tungsten rounds to jageroo?? That'll make the average dmg to 920, literally a german deathstar

[stone drum]

No, it got better at being a close support tank and worse at sniping.

[icy linden]

is it overall better or worse

[wooden lynx]

It will get the same nerfs on the alpha

[ancient rampart]

Always has been

[rare sleet]

no one snipes in a 183 anyways front line 183 is best 183

[pale oyster]

Stb is one of the best performing meds. It still got buffed

[stone drum]

That's objectively false, as you can see the Fv215b 183 has the single lowest spot rate in tier X by a significant margin.

[ancient rampart]

What website is that or where can I find that info on my own

[stone drum]

Blitzanalysiz.com

[rare sleet]

That's because they are all playing the tank wrong, if they saw the rest of the tech tree they'd realize that wargaming was actually encouraging us to frontline the 183 this whole time.

[gleaming apex]

bigsigtanker_55675#0 has been warned.

[stone drum]

You aserted that no-one was sniping in 183 not that no-one should snipe in 183.

[drowsy plaza]

Not front line but not red line camping either. Camping 183’s are just wasted potential as often it is the last to die and has 100% health and any damage it gets is just wasted as it’s during the opposite sides clean up.

[unique scaffold]

215b armor is already Horrible, it just needs a massive speed buff or some armor buff, since its slow as hell, huge, with bad gun dep and awkward rear turret
it will be so mediocre in 10.3, it gets penned so easily already

[teal crystal]

idk would you call a worse aimtime for 20 more alpha on AP, 90 less on HESH good?

[nimble zodiac]

At least they’re slightly reducing the most busted part of the tank and actually making it closer and closer to a normal TD
I take it that so many people dislike it because they won’t hit somebody for 1625 because of one mistake they made anymore 🗿

[unique scaffold]

i would like to see an actual fast tier X light. they all go at 65/68, which isnt that incredible considering that some meds can do that as well or come close to that, while packing way better firepower. dunno if this is an L take, tell me ur opinion

@teal crystal isnt the aimtime going to be better on 183, its .8 sec less?

[teal crystal]

what if they're extremely bad players that should have learned from poking over a ridge?
oh wait, many players won't know that because KV-2 no longer one shots tanks that make that mistake, low tier tanks had their howitzers removed and even if they came back the HP pools are way more than what the howitzers damage range is

[nimble zodiac]

Mistakes should be punishing, not game-ending. Like the team that made more mistakes (like losing more HP from poking out) loses

KV-2 could legitimately one-shot, and it has the full front-mounted turret to make its shots happen.

[teal crystal]

KV-2 is no longer capable of reliably one shotting tanks because the playerbase has spoken and nerfed it indirectly by giving everyone larger HP pools, but ig they wanted to sell the Smasher by doing that, a SU-152 as a heavy with a turret and more HP, why not?
A series of mistakes should be punished, specially in high tiers where players can't read a map, understand why flank isn't advancing or where campers would be if they decide to push

[sharp cairn]

😶‍🌫️

[teal crystal]

yeah you are right, but surrounding the "buff" is increased dispersion on the move which basically just is a flat out nerf considering the already limited gun arcs, funny part is how this tank probably has more camo than the Grille yet it barely got any changes overtime, also it's a really weird tank for its line as 4 tanks preceeding it were high dpm armored destroyers

[unique scaffold]

yeah wotb still follows old wot PC techtrees, so here the top of the branch is 183, while in wot PC it's badger.

[wicked quest]

I too think a tank that can penetrate tier 8s reliably and one shot the lower tier is balanced

[nimble zodiac]

The only good thing about 183 is that it instantly shows which players in the match are bad on the loading screen

[burnt venture]

High alpha tanks suck not only because they're toxic, but because they're toxic while also being the most popular tanks in the game.

183s are utterly useless as friendlies and equally awful to play against as enemies. You don't want to push against 183s, nor do you want to see 183s on your team because then they'd be matched up against other actual TDs that help advance the game.

The current 183 is pretty much the most accurate the tank has ever been. It literally has gun handling comparable to an E100. No matter how you look at it, it's utter garbage to have anybody sitting at the back of the map delete all your usable HP because he could sit on top of a hill and click a button.

I can't actually believe people are defending one of the dumbest tanks in the game

[past vale]

The 183 is alright and weegee is nerfing the frustrating part (the HESH burst) Yeah, bad players love this tank but in the hands of a Good Player (1,8k WN8 and above) this tank is a capable TD, if anything I am glad they nerfed the HESH part, its alpha is becoming in line with the Jag.E100.

Also you if you are dying to the same TDs on the same spots because you pushed the same way for the last 20k battles, then no tank balance change will save you lmao. If anything, TDs are weaker when the enemy team is good as they will avoid giving you free shots.

[wicked quest]

The old reliable “if your good just don’t get hit lolololol”

[burnt venture]

I mean this isn't even a nerf. The gun handling is getting worse while you get 940 alpha, better forward mobility, and way better armor (the current tank already HAS pretty good armor against meds and lights to bounce a few shots).

I'd still say this tank is going to be incredibly toxic when it rolls for 1000+ on AP. But at least you'll be able to see and react to the tank being forced to play a bit closer instead of it hitting shots on weakspots 300m away in spawn

Oh and the "just avoid TD spots" argument is also completely trash. On many maps, TD spots are literally so oppressive that there are very few safe routes around them. Many TD spots are designed to basically just stop pushes, and tons of TD spots lock down very important map positions.

Telling people to "avoid TD spots" due to an extremely toxic and broken high alpha tank is just like telling people to "just run away" when faced with invincible pixel weakspot tanks. That's just a bad gameplay solution to a terribly designed gameplay element.

[ancient rampart]

183 is objectively better in 10.3 than it is right now
Sure you lose dispersion and 90 points of HESH alpha but you gain aimtime, armor and speed

[twin egret]

Bro I don't even know what corner might or might not have a TD anymore. I'm seeing TD players placing themselves in the most absurd, least strategic spots in the game. Imagine playing the game to know what spots do and don't work depending on the battle outcome to predict where TDs would be only for that one random 183 sitting in the most useless bush for a TD to end you after winning a medium flank

[teal crystal]

😂😂
they also weirdly manage to not get spotted by enemy mediums and lights because they fire behind cover, by the time the medium or light pushes it, the team is usually destroyed

[past vale]

Coping hard, tier X has the most view range and less camo on TDs by far, even on Campstilla and Deadrail you know where they are usually sitting because Blitz has no bushes.

[burnt venture]

"Just avoid TD spots that might have a 183 in them" sounds suspiciously like "Just avoid ATGMs"

"Most 183s just miss and get spotted and destroyed anyway" also sounds exactly like "Most Sheridans can't aim missiles and get destroyed anyway"

The tank is the problem. You don't see anybody else complaining about 268, Grille, or even heavy tanks camping. It's literally just the 183.

Just because big damage happens very rarely / mostly to bad players doesn't make those instances any more balanced or engaging to play. I personally don't see how or why one mistake or one shot / one clip should be able to change the tide of battle on a flank in 2 seconds. That completely disrupts gameplay

[unique scaffold]

@burnt venture wtf are you taking about the Grill is sniping a lot and see way more 268 sniping then 183

[burnt venture]

My point is more people complain about 183s sniping than any other tank. Because of the high alpha

[stone drum]

Getting one-spotted in a tier 9 td by a 183 is a uniquely infuriating situation.

[sharp crown]

Como consigo las llaves de los cofres?

[mint sleet]

Hi nide like for wating

[unique scaffold]

@burnt venture yes it has high alfa and but nobody complains about the Isu or the Jg

On top of that the 183 is only frustraiting when you ignor it . It is derp. Just bait untilly it shots

@stone drum how often have you bin oneshoted by an fv ,1 or 2 times in 10.000 games so it rare

[nimble zodiac]

That first point is so bad
183 has the highest alpha in the game by a considerable margin, ISU has tanks like Rhm B WT competing with the alpha

[mint sleet]

Maybe someone knows the broadcast link

[burnt venture]

Personally I would complain about ISU. For a 640 alpha gun to also have 3k DPM with the highest pen at tier 8 is frankly ridiculous. Pre-mobility nerfs the ISU was definitely what I would consider OP.

Jag gets spotted from the moon and most players don't just go corner camp in it because of the notion that it is a superheavy

[unique scaffold]

@burnt venture the isu Yeah i agree fully on that i always wanted that it gets a dmp nerf

But i dont mind the high dmg per shot becouse almost all super high damage tanks have massiv drabacks.The Fv is slow has bad armor is spotted easily .It has no gundipression is inacuret and has a huge relod .Its shell a slow too .The tank has ONLY Alfa and that is what makes it specil .It is not strong its bad but it shoud be feerd like the kv2

[strange prawn]

wg should re-think about removing the reticle calibration on the 4005 tbh

i mean, even with the consumable in use, the tank still struggle to hit the enemy at long range

[burnt venture]

The issue here isn't the drawbacks. It's just that nobody likes being on the receiving end of a random dice roll which completely takes away your ability to play for the rest of the game.

The change to 183 here is a start. The tank currently is too accurate for what it can do, and nerfing things such as gun handling, changing the alpha to move away from HESH and more towards AP, and reducing reverse speed all helps players counter 183 at range and up close, with a lower chance of just being randomly shot at for 1300.

[unique scaffold]

@burnt venture the fv has been powercraped ofer the years enogh .Lots of easy to pen tanks got Spanliner so they Reseve way les damge anyway .And it is allready Hard to pen havys and meds .It Hits hart but only when the target is in the open and Shows there side.Or the Fv sids super long outside and get killef

@stone drum wow you get more oneclipped or burned or ammorek it doenst happen often and what tank are playing in where this happens

Are you playing the wt without spolliner

[stone drum]

It was 4 times In 100 games in said tank.

So in 4% of my games in the aforementioned tier 9 td it happened.

I'm counting only max roll one shots. 1625 > 1600

[burnt venture]

Rarity doesn't mean that the instance where you get penned is somehow less frustrating. The entire point is that tanks at this high of a tier with this kind of alpha which basically instapunishes people for one mistake is not a good tank to have in the game.

You can say 183 is powercrept all you want but it's the most played tank by battles in the entire game.

[unique scaffold]

@burnt venture becouse its fun and i have one question have you ever played the 183

That people are playing the 183 still doesnt mean it didnt get worse ofer time .Becouse So many tanks got armor buffed ofer time or got olmost immun to he .

@burnt venture i dont know what you have for an rng but when pen hesh i Do Linke 1150 damage

[stone drum]

I'm playing the AMX-50 foch, which 183's can hesh through the cupola, lower plate, and gun recoil housing.

[unique scaffold]

@stone drum buddy all tier 10 can pen the foch throgh the side .On top of that that is a pixelshot that i never woud hit this is just rng not the tank itself

[solid sequoia]

Just drop the shell velocity on the HESH shell

[stone drum]

@ 100m what a 183 sees. Yeah. their are plenty of other spots a 183 can also pen.

[burnt venture]

It's not overpowered. It's just broken because it's balancing with extremes

[real bison]

183 changes totally deserved- it has been forced to get closer, and get punished harder for being careless

however if i was in charge, and the 183 HAD to stay in the game, I'd utterly nuke it. No armour, no mobility, no accuracy, longer reload, longer aimtime

you already get to ruin one person's game with it - the trade off is that you should suffer beforehand or after for doing so

[stone drum]

Thanks for the insult.

the point is, it isn't rng to his those "pixel" weakspot. 183 also doesn't deserve to be able to one-shot assualt tds.

[unique scaffold]

@real bison it allready is i dont why they are buffing the armor and speed but why the fv there are way more tanks witch will destroy youre game even faster than a fv .

@stone drum i did it only twice in 1000 games and it never happend to me i dont what Do but you Do something wrong

[distant river]

Saying the 183 is fine because it performs badly is just wrong

Nobody is saying the 183 is too good, what they are saying is that the 183 has too much of an influence in games.

The very fact that it's so popular and yet so awful tells you how broken the tank is and how badly it needs changes.

[burnt venture]

Even Honourless agrees, and we never agree

[unique scaffold]

@distant river it is only played bevouse it is fun to Do a lot of damage i a shot .Doesnt mean it broken it is just fun that is it.The tank just sucks thats the truth . It has no armor is easily killed or spotted or out dmpemed .It is painful to be hit by fv yes . Of corse it does but the tank itself is really bad

@void siren it has better armor an it can easily oneshot evrything

@wicked quest broken means overpowered .No i dont agree it is overpowered i just say that it is a derp. Like the t49

[void siren]

There is only one precedent to the Fv215b 183’s gameplay - the kv-2.

Unlike the 183, the kv-2 has horrid pen, horrendous accuracy, and no effective hesh round.

The 183 is a tank that can snipe across the map and halve your hp bar, and I think it shouldn’t exist.

The solution is obvious just like it was with the fv4005 and Sheridan missile: remove it or banish it to fun modes

[wicked quest]

So you do agree it’s unhealthy and broken

[real bison]

as the current 183 is, there is no better tank to redline in and cripple someone with a crossmap

A 4005 does more damage, but it needs both retcal and shell reload boost to do it at a safe range, plus, it needs time to dump its damage. A TVP is more mobile, but shouldn’t be redlining. A T57 has more armour, but again, shouldn’t be redlining.

the current 183 gets 0.35 max dispersion, 18s reload, pen on both AP and HESH, and troll armour

it can redline without much consequence until later on. A 183 player is a detriment to their own team, an annoyance to the enemy team, and actively hinders its player from making significant plays because “me want big HESH pen instead of important kill”

[unique scaffold]

@real bison t57 havy or tvp or obj 777 ll

@void siren and what will replays it hmmmwhen you remove the fv .There are way more toxic tanks in tier 10 wich are worse then a fv.

[void siren]

If you redline in any of those tanks you are mentally ill

I don’t even know what you are saying because I cannot comprehend your statements

[real bison]

all 3 of which need to get up close and personal, instead of redlining 400m away

all 3 of which need far more time to deal damage, the TVP and T57 have some significant downtime between clips

all 3 of which shouldn’t even be redlining

all 3 of which can be somewhat avoided with good positioning, and won’t likely take you by surprise by hitting you from an angle you quite literally cannot predict from, despite knowing the angle

you can know every single little nook and cranny of the map and still get perma-stared by some utter dunce in a 183 and get hit

[unique scaffold]

@real bison i have no Idee what you think how pressice the fv is but i dont hit anything fullaimed from 300 m away and 400 m i gid what Do you have for an rng

@void siren they are not acuret the fv is less acuret then a sheri with makes no sence to me.

[void siren]

The fv215b 183 has the same accuracy as the average tier 8 122mm

[real bison]

do you even know how accurate 0.35 is on a gun like the 183’s

that’s almost on par with the E100, which, if you didn’t know, can’t cripple an enemy tank with a crossmap

[unique scaffold]

0.35 is bad .It is super bad .You will not hit anything but maybe sides but its Hard and there a tanks with will Do it better then the fv.And i repet the is not overpowered. It is only high alfa that is it.And saying evrybody who plays it becouse its overpowered no it is just fun.Even good players will be winning less than i all other tanks

[real bison]

0.35 is good actually, considering that you get to aim in fully

[void siren]

Am I a psycho? Is it normal to use the pre-refined numbers or post-refined numbers?

[ancient ruin]

@unique scaffold For your mental health and security I highly suggest you to stop arguing with these guys

[unique scaffold]

@ancient ruin Yeah i think youre right

[ancient rampart]

0.35 isn't bad in the slightest considering the KV-2 is 0.4

[violet island]

1. broken ≠ overpowered, e.g. Wte before removal on pc was broken, FV is broken, however arty on pc is overpowered as they are way overperforming in almost every situation
2. how can you honestly argue that 1.3k alpha is in any way fine no matter how much you gice up for that
3. complaining about 0.35 is pure copium, maybe try aiming next time

[gleaming apex]

shatteringdreams#0 has been warned.

mannyquin#0 has been warned.

Jonas der WOTB player#2553 has been warned.

[tepid quest]

Yes. Please rethink this wg don't do this stupid decision listen to your players you clearly don't know what you're doing, and why even game is go 10 km/h Reverse so STUPID

[void siren]

Do it WG

Nerf the clippers

[drowsy plaza]

It doesn’t need reticle calibration if you play the tank not on the red line, and actually help your team and don’t play like a lemon. A lot of the changes that WG is doing aren’t actually nerf’s, just many players don’t seem to understand why these are actually buffs to most tanks that have major complaints on.

[stone drum]

On most tanks it's normal to use the pre-refined numbers, but 183 is weird since it doesn't actually need to run V-stabs.

[warm palm]

Thoughts on 215b changes?

[real bison]

I’d like to mention that even mid-range combat without retcal is hard, even more so when you have shell reload boost equipped, due to after-shot dispersion.

It’s the opposite of the TVP.

The old 4005 could decently run with either retcal or shell reload boost, or neither, since there wasn’t an issue with the unload time (old 6s, new 7.5s), and the accuracy was generally okay. The post 9.1 4005, if it wanted to burst in under 6s, had no choice but to use shell reload boost. This, however, meant that the after shot dispersion had more of an effect. So therefore, to get out damage at mid-range reliably and quickly, both were needed. Although I’m not a fan of using superconsumables as a balancing tool, there is no doubt that the post 10.3 4005 will be even more punishing for the player, and I predict that we’ll see more of them redlining.

[vast skiff]

add waffentrager auf e100 and type 5 heavy in blitz

[teal crystal]

tell that to my teams that curse "campers" knowing they are in a sector, I even tell them through chat and they ignore me then I get annoyed when they send the ducky react because they can't read

[burnt venture]

Bruh the current 4005 does NOT need ret cal to even work. The gun got a huge accuracy buff during 9.1 and it's pretty accurate as long as you aren't trying to shoot across the map (which in general is just a bad idea for any autoloader).

4k5 was always about the super engine boost mobility + the clip reload booster. People who use ret cal to sit redline are plainly playing the tank wrong in the first place. My 4005 has no problems performing at mid to close range without ret cal, which I've basically never ran on the tank.

This change will basically make sniping in it way less effective, and the hit to reverse speed means that you will get punished for making a misplay. It will still be effective to play, but you can no longer just expect to sit in spawn and rely on a consumable to have perfect accuracy for an entire clip, or wide peek some corner in front of heavy tanks and dump a clip expecting to get away.

The change on 4k5 makes sense: it decreases the gun's reliability at range, while also heavily punishing players for wide peeking angles they shouldn't be peeking, two things that make the current 4005 really dumb to play against because it essentially gives a free clip to anybody who can click two buttons.

[sour moon]

Can someone buff the KPZ 70, please? need dpm or alpha

[teal crystal]

4005 didn't need any changes other than reverse speed nerf, 1640 burst is just going to ruin other player's day if they are in the wrong spot

I am noticing they are nerfing reverse speeds on certain tanks, maybe other clippers will get the same treatment

[dry rivet]

It’s been buffed so many times already. Armorwise and gun too.

[runic dagger]

Ngl they should buff su 144

[teal crystal]

the 122-54?

[burnt venture]

The reticle calibration on the 4005 was meant for the old 4005, where it had 460x3 but had pretty derpy accuracy.

Now that it has 1640 burst with already decent gun handling, it makes absolutely no sense for it to have ret cal. And this is before considering that instant accuracy for 20 seconds is far more powerful on an autoloader than single shot tanks.

It's a good nerf to a tank that was never meant for long range engagements. And the reverse nerf makes it so that it won't be as forgiving to randomly peek spots you shouldn't peek.

It's good to see ret cal being removed off of some tanks. It's probably one of the more broken superconsumables out there next to tungsten. To have it on an already toxic tank like a 4005 is kind of stupid.

[sour moon]

the dpm is so bad 😦 all hevies tier IX have more dpm

[teal crystal]

Kpz 70 isn't meant to have dpm, but it's meant to shotgun flanks really hard, shame that they didn't buff the alpha to scare people from poking it with those hp pools

[harsh ravine]

kpz 70 has been rendered obsolete since the buffs that were made to the T30

[stone drum]

If they actually nerf AMX-50b reverse speed, I'm going to throw blitz in the trash, lol.

@burnt venture the Fv4005 did not infact get a gun accuracy buff during update 9.1.

[granite pebble]

If anything the WZ-114 needs either an alpha or reload buff, KPZ 70 is perfectly fine especially considering it's mobility and overall armor layout while still having decent gun handling.

Kpz 70 is fun to play, so I'm confused why people think it even needs to be buffed like the WZ114 doesn't exist in its current state

[wooden lynx]

Imagine buffing the AMX 50B and then nerfing it into oblivion

[spring leaf]

WZ 122 TM mainly needs a turret armour buff to atleast 220-230mm, and the on movement dispersion needs a buff also, and the penetration needs a buff because the penetration sits at only 203mm, which is very bad for a VIII 120mm gun, when the PC version sits at 233mm it makes no sense.

[teal crystal]

WG: French are known to retreat, we have to make tank historically accurate by removing the reverse speed

[stone drum]

Compare it to an IS-5 and it will all make sense.

[grand moat]

@teal crystal francais?

[spring leaf]

No, the difference in price is clearly huge, the IS-5 costs only 1000 gold when the WZ literally costs 10x the IS-5 price, so it needs a change. And I didn't say more DPM it needs buff on other things but the DPM is okay.

[dry rivet]

If WG really wants to make game matches last longer, they should be nerfing clipper tanks, not buffing heavies and nerfing medium tanks.

The E6 Piranha is getting buffed brighter than the sun, it might as well become a heavy tank self-identifying as a medium. Meanwhile, mediums are completely outclassed as heavies get faster, with more armor and harder hitting guns. There’s this trend of medium tanks getting shorter reload times, alpha and penetration nerfs. So that means mediums are required to peek more often, expose themselves more often, get hit more often, struggle to penetrate heavies more often, but they can’t do anything effectively???
Why is Vickers getting alpha nerf? Dealing 300 with a 105 gun is like flicking feathers. What it needs is armor nerf, not gun changes. It’s a light tank, so it should have armor like one.
What’s the point of the M48 Patton now? You’re better off playing the E6. The buffed M48 armor will be ineffective against TD guns, heavy tank guns, and only useful against meds and lights. The Patton’s gun already struggles to penetrate most targets, and often deals less than 350 hp in the current update. It does like…287-346 per shot even though on paper it says 350.

Why is STB getting AP prammo? It loses the cali bonus! And alpha nerfed to 330? Just to reload faster? I’d rather have the present gun.

Mediums shouldn’t be forced to expose themselves more often due to decreased alpha. If WG is going to nerf penetration of medium tank guns, then medium tanks should become faster in order to flank, relocate, and able to hit heavy tank weak spots. Otherwise, the medium tank gun penetration nerfs are illogical. Heavies shouldn’t be faster with harder hitting guns.

[clear shuttle]

im fine with the stb having 330 alpha for like 3.5k dpm, as long as it dosent get reduced to something like 300-310

[teal crystal]

wait, it's 1,000 gold now?
back then that sucker cost me 1500 gold

[spring leaf]

1000 gold for the tank and 1500 for the camo

[teal crystal]

the cost of the tank when you unlock clan supply on the IS-5 is 1500 gold

[spring leaf]

Well, mabye the price changed? But I payed 1K gold for the tank and 1.5K gold for the camo I'm sure

[willow hawk]

Music to my ears. Patton already nerfed because of gun depression changes, making it harder to play side-peek-a-boo.
Oh yeah, WG wants to nerf Patton’s pen by 7mm too. 350 to 340 alpha. Does the “reload buff by .29 seconds” really warrant the penetration and alpha nerfs? I don’t think so.

If it’s not broken, don’t fix it, Wargaming. You messed up Patton when you added PBR to it. And now you are making the problem worse for Patton.
**What Patton needs:

Do NOT nerf gun penetration
buff/fix the turret armor
Do NOT nerf gun alpha/damage per shot
Reinstate 9° side gun depression.**
Patton is already a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
In short, it already sucks.
Fix the turret armor and gun depression, and leave the gun stats alone.

Wargaming, your action of buffing / “rebalancing” heavies is already an indirect nerf to all medium tanks. Don’t make it worse.

[teal crystal]

balance changes in a nutshell:

[forest basin]

I think STB pramo change is a buff. AP gets 5 degrees of shell normalization, HEAT gets 0. Even though the paper penetration is lower, the effective pen against angled plates is higher. I also use rammer anyways, ever since they buffed e100 turrets and it doesn't matter if you use Cali or not you still can't pen the cheeks.

[violet island]

if you would play the STB like any sane being with rammer you wouldn't have to complain about loosing cali, which is worthless on STB anyways
wrong ping was supposed to be towards Caitlin

[unique scaffold]

im a newbie to the game. Is the Kranvagn Good or bad?

[forest basin]

It's still really good even after a buncha nerfs

[mortal falcon]

For what it's worth, WTE before removal was also exceptionally overpowered, and artillery is not overpowered in the slightest ever since they crippled it

[violet island]

WTE was broken as you were very strong certain situations (clipping out one tank) and then you had no impact for 55s roughly, so that part of your statement is wrong. Regarding arty, hitting for 500 and stunning for 20s reducind combat effectivness of the tank that was hit by an insane amount all the while just being afk at the redline and clicking once every 30 seconds seems quite op to me

[mortal falcon]

You clearly know nothing about what you're talking about.

1. The WTE could clip out almost two tanks in one clip. And that reload really isn't much of an issue if there's nobody left to push you; plus, PC WoT is a lot campier. They even reintroduced it semi-recently as an "event", and it still outperformed every other Tier 10 (taking into account relative player skill) by a mile.

2. Artillery "stun shells" do maybe 300 to you now; less if your turret's good. The stun was significantly reduced, too. I regret to inform you that watching 2-year-old QuickyBaby videos does NOT actually make you an expert. The mechanic of hitting people with no punishment is obviously broken, yes, I agree.

[violet island]

1. fyi clipping out 2 tanks every few games doesn't make the tank op but broken so just like current FV
2. as my stats are obviously not good enough to see the damage arty does against me please teach me senpai
   also I am talking about the damage t10 arty does, not t8 arty against t10 heavies

[mortal falcon]

Are you playing meds? Simply "just dodge" like WG expects you to 💀
It's obviously very annoying, yeah. But technically performance-wise it is ""underperforming"", also why Conq GC got cut from all the CW lineups. Ineffective vs. Chieftains now.

And no, WT was very overpowered. It was far too good in a much slower meta at time of introduction, so the ~55s was not as significant (Repair kits were still single-use at that time, obviously no EBR clown cars/CS63/anything else that goes way too fast, etc.)

[violet island]

I am playing every class except for arty and take similar damage on all of them
WT was never overpowered just cause you where mispositioning every game and getting clipped by one that doesn't make it overpowered. 55s where at the time of it's removal also stupid, especially considering it's weaknesses (no mobility or armor -> effectively only a gun on tracks) leading to good players performing way better in it cause they could seize oportunities which most of them could seize in many other tanks aswell

[mortal falcon]

"Good players performing way better in it" means that a tank is overpowered :)

Bad players are unable to use a tank to its strengths, after all

[violet island]

than any tank is overpowered if good players are performing better in it

[mortal falcon]

Relative to other vehicles, keeping player skill constant between them? Yeah. Or the underperforming vehicles are underpowered. Either/or.

[violet island]

most people wheren‘t overperforming in wte though, they where performing good in it, better than the average player but as is clearly obvious by most people having 2k-3k dpg on it it’s just a one clip wonder and that’s why its broken as you do one clip and die

[proven mica]

Wg please dont nerf the Vickers Light 105 its good now, and doesnt need to be nerfed, i agree with the gun mantlet but the damage you can reduce by 20 or 30 not like 50, the tank will become less enjoyjable you should keep it how it is.

[tacit folio]

nerf magnate

[shy olive]

As i sayd the grille gonna be busted with dpm

[burnt venture]

I still see a lot of people saying mediums aren't getting nerfed or whatever because they're getting pretty significant DPM hikes across the board which would "help" them deal with heavy tanks better.

Maybe DPM will help counter heavy tanks for the top 1% of players who can have the mechanical and theoretical skill to hit weakspots and play the right positions with the right timing. But for the other 99%, the situation gets way worse.

More DPM on meds doesn't even come close to hurting heavy tanks the most. Anytime there's an increase of firepower, mediums and light tanks are the first to feel the pain. Anytime there's an alpha increase, DPM increase, or changes like pen increases for TDs last rebalance, mediums and LTs suffer the hardest. Anytime there are armor buffs across the board, mediums and LTs feel this the hardest yet again due to lack of pen. Meds and LTs are the most sensitive to any kind of sweeping balance changes simply because of the way they play. The mobility advantage was already pretty slim and now the firepower is going to lean more towards peashooter DPM than alpha.

With this DPM increase we are going to basically see that the vast majority of the time these 4k DPM meds are only going to be able to use this DPM against other meds and lights, especially early game. And this actually will just speed up games even more because the time to kill a medium with 4k DPM is basically 30 seconds.

Medium to heavy tank / heavy TD interactions will barely change, while this makes medium to medium interactions in games much faster. And a lot of tanks getting super low, 310-340 alpha actually just makes trades with heavy tanks, even the 400 alpha tanks, way less worth it.

[shy olive]

Jessus 4.5k dpm on grille , now its even better that 640 dmg that was before the nerf, you could put 2 shots 1kdmg than 640 (if you are not spotted or enemy isnt aiming on you

[clear shuttle]

most informative and helpful response ever

[burnt venture]

"Nerf magnate" with zero argument: No response

Actual argument: Skill Issue

Sounds like brain issue to me

[remote oriole]

Wait, do you actually think that meds aren‘t weak?

[shy olive]

Man the conq gonna be very good without its hesh's , how much hesh u fire in that thing anyway more dpm on ap 👍

[burnt venture]

Meds aren't weak guys!

Source: Trust me bro

Lmao "skill gap" my ass, these are stats from players who win 55-65% in tier X

[thorny timber]

Does the prog 65 perform average or below average in the meta? And if it does perform below then what would be possible to get it back on track?

[remote oriole]

Sometimes this chat makes me speechless

[shy olive]

Just remove the spall liner from grille 💀☠️💀

[burnt venture]

Also note that mediums only seem dominant in ratings because the literal prime strategy is to just run away to save ratings. Even then, 90% of meds in tier X ratings you see are just going to be STB and TVP. You'd be hard pressed to see anything else at all at the higher level.

[remote oriole]

I agree that it will likely make matters worse for most players, however I welcome specialised tanks that require a specialised skillset to work. I don‘t think that all meds should be like that, but sadly WG seems to think that the mass of players should play heavies and a few TDs

I believe a dpm buff plus a hp buff (so meds can trade effectively (two for one) against heavies) would do much to make meds a reasonable choice. I definitely don‘t want meds to get heavy like armour to make them competitive

[burnt venture]

More HP and more DPM would only serve to hurt tier 9s.

The entire problem with changing an entire tier and saying "let's blanket buff this" is that all it does is create more problems with intertier MM.

Like as bad as meds are against heavys, it's going to be even worse when you have tier 9s mixed in. Imagine playing against tier 9 mediums in tier Xs with almost 4k DPM. Even the current 3.5k DPM meds absolutely shred tier 9s with little to no risk.

Unless you're committed to changing ALL the tiers, doing a blanket change to only a single tier just creates more problems.

The unique thing about tier X is that there's no tier above it, so nerfs hardly impact playability at tier X at all. I'd rather see meaningful nerfs to heavy tanks, hits to heavy tank HP (especially on fast HTs), nerfs to TD traverse for armored TDs, and then some meaningful buffs to mediums like premium penetration and gun handling.

[void siren]

Isn’t the entire point of tier IX to inflict pain on people playing tanks from that tier?

[burnt venture]

Tier 9 used to be one of the best tiers to play, if you could deal with a slight lack of tanks to choose from.

Now most of the tanks are kind of just ruined from all these "tech tree continuity" rebalances that completely destroyed how tanks play just for the sake of being more similar to tier Xs. And now another huge powercreep is going to hit them due to this rebalance.

E50, Foch, 50 120, Type 68, just to name a few

[void siren]

I mean tier IX players should, in fact, be grateful that in the jump from tier IX to X there is no massive increase in penetration and armor values

If WG decides to be consistent, one day tier IX will have massively lower pen than tier X and horrendous armor in comparison

[remote oriole]

Intertier MM is a different can of worms, and I kind of do expect WG to apply such a class wide change across all tiers, just like they did with the heavy hp buffs

I don‘t talk about these balance changes

[void siren]

(these buffs and nerfs are entirely focused on tier X)
"balancing" tier 8 won't happen ever - its already quite balanced because its random
(they won't do a class wide change across all tiers)

[queen geyser]

dayum I rly hope they nerf the Progetto 65 if its the best performing med from pro grammers, and maybe buff the other ones

[marsh belfry]

prog 65 and best shouldnt even be in the same sentence

[hearty steeple]

It's pretty random. You never know which overpowered premium you're going to face in your avg tier 8 med

[stuck acorn]

They said they will change other tiers soon as well, so yeah, they will change them, but in between these changes some T9 tanks might be borderline unplayable

[void siren]

stop mentioning this magical tank class called "meds", they don't exist in tier 8
the average tier 8 med is a moderately fast tank that has no alpha, no hp, no armor, and no dpm

[burnt venture]

At this point if they want to rebalance all the tiers:

• Nerf strong tier Xs, bring weaker tier Xs up to balance
• Tier 9s don't need to be touched too much, probably return certain tanks to their pre 9.1 states
• Tier 8 prems aren't going to be nerfed, so bring weak tier 8s somewhat up to par with the stronger tier 8s
• Tier 7 doesn't have the DPM gap with tier 8 like other tiers, so all that needs is a blanket pen buff and they'll be doing much better.
• Tier 6 needs DPM and pen buffs for non-heavy tanks, and similar thing for tier 5

[void siren]

Those changes are actually pretty good

[gritty sleet]

I don't understand why I was banned. I'm just speaking up for me and all the drivers of 215b. If I remain silent this time, then I have nothing to say. The administrators believe that I have no meaning for the discussion, which is correct. Administrators, you have won.
Maybe you think I'm sending spam messages repeatedly? But for me, this is meaningful, so I will repeat my opinion. I think the viewpoint lies in quality rather than quantity.

I repeat my statement again, hoping that more people will see it. Instead of some people seeing it, I know many people don't have the habit of checking chat records.

The turret armor of 215b has a certain degree of protective ability, which allows it to output firepower behind the soil slope without being injured. If the protective ability is weakened, the 215b will become an unarmored tank. How good is mobility to avoid shells? Your efforts will turn into a foam if the enemy doesn't even look at your operation.! I can tolerate the weakening of the body armor, but the weakening of the turret is intolerable. I call on all 215B commanders to unite and refuse to accept modifications to the turret armor. If we tolerate today, we may lose everything of 215b tomorrow. I refuse to accept the changes. WG, you are destroying this tank and our trust in you. You will lose our trust and lead to failure. Of course, you can choose not to see, because this is a game for you and WG alone, not for all of us. You will only have your own opinions and not collect player opinions. Wishing you all the best towards decline.
——A driver of 215B, who has been playing for 6 years, is his personal opinion. He saw the prosperity and decline of Wotb. He is very disappointed

I just want more people to see this message, it should not be silent among the many messages. If you see this message, please support us. We are for 215b, for the British system, and even more for the entire technology line. Because they are being destroyed by WG.

[void siren]

the fv215b is becoming a medium killer
and thus WG is removing its abilities to hulldown

@lost crane hesh

[lost crane]

as a 215b user (not main), i understand your feeling, i hope they will not do that, it will destroy the tank, an armour nerf, with very little mobility buff. It will be like a strv k or a T95E6 but without the mobility, and will not have enought armour to be a real heavy. Like the mobility of an heavy tank, but for the armour of a med.

@void siren lol, what about strv k, T95E6, Obj 260, all these tank will have better hull armour, better mobility, better gun, better turret armour. Even medium tank will have better armour, gun, and mobility( stb-1, M48, T62a...)

[lost crane]

yes, i like trying to pen mobile tank with level 7-8 penetration, and if i hit side mostly cover by track, i do no damage, yes, it will be very op with 36 km/h max and 187 mm pen.
the fv215 not have real hesh, 187 mm is useless in tier X, and you can't use speed to hit side or back

[void siren]

i mean that's what ya gotta trade in for silly alpha and dpm

[dim ibex]

this is what a grille 15 is like on wot pc. just don't get why on blitz is 💩 while on pc its just good td.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58rU7WNf6tM

[wooden lynx]

187mm of HESH pen specially for FREE is massive, if you can't hit the weakspots then aim better. If you also can't do that you're better off not playing the FV215b.

187mm of HESH pen is already enough to pen the sides of a 60tp.

[gritty sleet]

Does 9001 seem to lack the accuracy of turret rotation diffusion?

[lost crane]

thats the point, how do you aim for the side of a tank with 36 km/h max speed, you can only hope that they do mistake. you can't flank, it's not a fv4202, and even if you can pen, you need to peek with no armour
and i know how to use hesh, but you can't hit the side of a medium which move, you will hit track and do 100 dmg

[wooden lynx]

Why would you even frontline in a tank with virtually no armour?

There's a reason why the FV215b has such godlike gun handling. This is so it can hit shots from distances while being helpful for your team. You don't entirely camp, you just support your team.

121mm of HESH pen of the Super Conqueror is already good enough to pen the majority of meds side on.

If you struggle despite having 187mm of it, I'm afraid that's just a skill issue and you need to aim better.

I myself as a player that plays the FV215b a lot can hit shots on moving mediums with HESH, honestly it's not that hard just aim better.

Plus 187mm of HESH pen is enough to pen SOME mediums on the FRONT.

@oak solar I don't know probably because the guy is complaining about having 187mm of HESH pen

[unique scaffold]

Give vz55 line have 2 shell autoloader from t8 to t10

[oak solar]

You might aswell be at a second line trying to take advantage of enemies reloading or sit it out and attend on your allied which need assistance, you dont have to completely rely on hesh, why would people even think of that anyway

[stuck acorn]

Except it doesn't lol. FV215b doesn't have godlike gun handling.

Chieftain and Type 71 have exactly the same gun handling, while super conq and Concept have even better one.

It's not even the best among heavies, not to mention meds and lights.

If they really want to make it godlike, 0,12 that can be found on Super Conqueror is a bare minimum it should receive. 0,15 is far from godlike

[gritty sleet]

I think the excellent gun control of the 215b can make it shoot off the field, but what do you want the TD to do? How do teammates view you? It is impossible to pursue a medium-sized tank at a speed of 36km, and it is also impossible to escape. If 215b is bypassed, there is no circuit to go through. She used to have armor that troubled Zhongtan, but now? What about the future?

[lost crane]

i'm complaining about a tank which will have no armour, no mobility, for a gun wich isn't amazing

[wooden lynx]

Did you read about the top speed getting improved on the FV215b, if not I suggest you read it again. It's no longer going to be 36 km/h.

@stuck acorn oh yeah I forgot that the Chieftain HAS better gun handling than the FV215b.

FV215b gun has the same aiming time, base dispersion as a T110E5.

The only thing the Chieftain is better than the FV215b is the dispersion upon turret traverse.

Honestly sometimes I forget if people can even read statistics properly.

[lost crane]

??? they will change max speed for something better than 36 km/h, they said +2km/h to max speed

[stuck acorn]

You are the one not reading stats properly. Gun handling is the same/better on chief.

Aiming time/gun dispersion is a whole different story. All of these stats affect accuaracy of this tank, but you specifically said it has godlike gun handling. Which it clearly doesn't

FV's gun is good, but it's not as amazing as some people make it to be.

It's also not enough to carry the whole rest of the tank which is just crap

[gritty sleet]

34+2=36km

[wooden lynx]

Is it really getting buffed by 2 km/h?

WG hasn't provided by how much.

If so I might just switch sides in this arguement and accept my defeat and send my apologies.

But I would like to see where you knew about the changes of the speed being only 2 km/h.

[lost crane]

i search the message from staff, i send it when i find it

[gritty sleet]

I would like you to drive the 215B and complete the battle before returning for evaluation. You don't even know what 215b is missing right now! Armor!! Strengthening again only increased the maximum speed of 2km, but instead removed a large amount of turret armor

The data with a maximum speed increase of 2km was recorded in the discussion on Wednesday, and I saw someone mention it.

[wooden lynx]

I'm honestly fine about it losing armour, I just want it to be faster forward and reverse. Unfortunately it's not getting a reverse speed buff.

But not by 2 km/h, also I want you to show to me that it's getting increased by 2 km/h.

[lost crane]

i'm agree with you, for more speed, why not, 215b will be different and maybe even more interesting, but for only 2 km/h

[remote oriole]

#tank-balance-discussion message

[stuck acorn]

bruuuh, i thought they will make it go like 40-42 kph and i'm still not sure if that'd be enough in exchange for loosing all armor, but this is just an absolutely garbage joke

[wooden lynx]

That is incredibly bull-

I thought it was going to be faster than that like 38 km/h, my apologies lads.

[unique scaffold]

no, its bad on wot pc as well. only this skill guy likes it

[gritty sleet]

Trading a large amount of armor for a small amount of speed is not worth the loss, it is a loss.
No matter how fast you are, you can't escape medium tanks and light tanks. Your massive body cannot evade shells. You will be the blood of everyone on the battlefield, ATM.

[lost crane]

no problem. It's why i don't understand these change, it's just the bigger nerf anounced for a tank which is not overperforming, or really popular.
@wooden lynx : we don't know how much at the moment

[wooden lynx]

@gritty sleet how much will the armour be weakened?

If the turret is still impervious to Heavy tank standard shells, I suppose it wouldn't be that bad.

[void siren]

It’s probably gonna look like the regular conqueror

[gritty sleet]

They only mentioned weakening the armor, referring to the weakening of IS-4. I speculate that the turret armor is weakened by an absolute thickness of 30-40mm in all directions.

[lost crane]

lol, tier 9 conqueror will be more armored than fv215b

[dim ibex]

Thats cap 🧢

[marsh island]

I heard IS7 is getting nerfed again is it true

[teal crystal]

those gun depression angles... yikes

[stable gulch]

on pc its anything but good, but okay

[stone drum]

It won't be, lol.

[unique scaffold]

bad pen, bad camo, bad rng, bad gun handling. it's pretty trash, and this is coming from someone who loves it, but I have to be honest and admit it's very bad.

[broken kernel]

Its not good on pc either, its at most decent

[willow hawk]

…“mediums and LTs feel this the hardest yet again due to lack of penetration”
WG has already nerfed tier 10 medium tank pen many, many updates ago, and they compensated back a little with the calibration perk. But now, WG nerfs medium tank pen AGAIN, and this time, there is no redemption
Nerfing medium tanks’ penetration and damage per shot only widens the performance gap between meds and heavies. This isn’t good for the game future.

[final warren]

Well medium and light tanks are supposed to be hard for most people to play, and rewarding for that 1% of players to play.

This is what I think WG is aiming for. The DPM buff and alpha nerfs will help people who know how to flank. Right now, if you flank a heavy and shoot it, the heavy tank will be turned around before you reload. With lower alpha and higher DPM, you will be able to get two shots in more often before the heavy can turn, effectively giving you more dmg despite having lower alpha.

Sometimes it might even be worth it to trade with a heavy you flank. You shoot twice, take a 460 dmg shot in return, then shoot twice again and run. That's 1200 dmg.

Obviously this isnt going to happen much tho, and most players can't do this, which is why simply buffing DPM isn't a great way to help mediums fight heavies.

WG said a long time ago that they want heavies to be the meta, and it seems like they want to keep it that way.

[inland talon]

bruh its 183mm gun compared to the e100 jaggero. the 183 is way bigger

[twilit crystal]

tbh meds aren't even rewarding for the 1% of players if you look at that graph. If you watn to win just play heavies. I just play meds because its more fun

[unique scaffold]

Is 122mm gun must have more pen 197 maybe is enought

[burnt venture]

The thing is though that the "just flank" argument doesn't work at all.

Just in this last year or two, we've had traverse / mobility buffs to 95E6, E5, E4, E3, IS-7, 260, 268, 263, E 100, VK72, Grille, 183, Badger, Ho Ri, 113, 5A, WZ-113G FT, Kran, and 60TP.

The only tanks which got actual traverse / mobility nerfs were MLE, Maus, IS-4, and Yoh.

In this current patch, we're going to have traverse / mobility buffs to 95E6, E5, Yoh, E4, VK72, Maus, Jageroo, Grille, 268v4, IS-4, 215B, 183, 4005. And that's just the ones WG has shown us.

Sure there are some overall mobility nerfs, but note that NONE of them actually touch upon base traverse. The only tank that was nerfed on base traverse was Ho Ri, and that's getting a terrain crossing buff. Other tanks may be getting slower, but they are NOT turning slower. Traverse is pretty much only being buffed for these so-called "slow" and heavily armored tanks.

Reality is heavy tanks are getting faster and faster not only forwards and backwards, but also at traversing. There are tons of heavy tanks now that can turn to counter you faster than you will be able to get 2 shots in, even with a ~ 5 second reload. E-100 with a 25 deg/second traverse can turn 125 deg, enough to angle himself towards you for the second shot even if you approach directly from behind him.

And let's be fair here, heavy tanks have MORE than enough HP that even if they eat 2 shots you're still going to struggle. This isn't even a "good players only" thing, it's just reality.

It's not most players won't be able to do this. It's that ANY player, when they flank, have way less time to do damage without risking their HP pool because everything turns a bazillion times faster nowadays

Heavy tanks and heavy TDs at this point are just a protected class.

[final warren]

Exactly, that's why I said it isn't going to happen much and that most players won't be able to

[past vale]

Yesterday we had a Tourney match where a 100LT was top DMG, flanking is not the same as circle of death, flanking implies crossfiring/pincering.

[gleaming apex]

lameduck#0 has been warned.

mausman__1#0 was muted.

1tommy150#0 was muted.

pv_nam#0 has been warned.

[mortal falcon]

what exactly are you trying to prove with this? if you're trying to say that you can farm in a t100lt, you can farm in literally anything. especially in qts.

heavies having the overall mobility to respond to a "flank" is what he's criticizing and it's true. just look at every single season from the past ~3 years... virtually everyone's playing a heavy tank

[teal crystal]

tier 7 is a prime example

[teal crystal]

WG may as well switch the 215B with the conqueror for balance

[past vale]

Not a single tank can respond to 2 sides, if you flank on time and the enemy heavies are facing your heavies, you got a crossfire.

If you want to 1v1 heavies frontally with meds like in the early years then say it lmao.

[teal crystal]

T-34-85 facing the Tiger II pre 5.5

[past vale]

How is the infamous update that changed low tiers relevant to the relevant tiers (7-10) in regards to medium performance? XD

[teal crystal]

it was actually blitz, not nerf meta for heavies to have a chance at winning

[analog badger]

Oh mein gott, those times are a nightmare lol, you could easily shred a heavy tank frontally with gold rounds and they can't really do much against you

[twin egret]

Conqueror or S. Conq

[teal crystal]

the T9 Conqueror, design is very balanced

[uneven turtle]

Is 7 almost keeping pace with mts

[willow briar]

i simply don't understand the single shot damage decrease for the MTs and Lts... the changes are getting to a point that they don't correlate with the gun calibers anymore...
i understand the need for game balance, although not only do most players never explicitly complained about Mts and Lts hitting too hard (perhaps with the exception of Sheridan) but also what is the point of making the game less and less realistic just for the sake of balance when the core concept of the game is like "drive these real-life tanks into virtual battles"
fun game modes, unrealistic consumables, etc are fine to an extent, but when certain physical realities like larger calibers = more damage and equal calibers = equal damage are being messed around i just don't see the point... are these changes necessary?
isn't there a reason that on PC, premium ammos do the same damage as the standard shells? because the PC devs didn't value game balance over realism especially when the majority of the player base never explicitly complained about it...

[teal crystal]

this is what I've been seeing across all tiers and calibers, 152-155mms have the most random alpha values

[willow briar]

very true, it is not just the MTs and LTs

[stone drum]

Not really différent shell construction + type leads to different levels of spalling. The damage to caliber corrélation is largely inconsistent and vairés heavily, as long as major benchmarks aren't crossed it should be fine.

@keen dew
155: 500 alpha
152: 690 alpha
150: 680 alpha

[keen dew]

150mm 600 alpha
152mm 640 alpha
155mm 650-700 alpha

[floral cobalt]

@keen dew

[keen dew]

what

[past birch]

Make Somua reload time faster

[sweet skiff]

buff somua overall

[past birch]

Reload 23 sec to 19 sec and 3.0 to 2.5

[scenic kindle]

yeah

[queen geyser]

The reason on PC premium ammo does the same damage as normal rounds is that you can spam gold and lose credits, for example Leo1 has APCR, APCR, HE, so why fire the standart one ? Its just worse expect its more cheap, but if you want to have "full potential" then u spam full gold, and lose -100k credits each game, that means you need to farm credits some time, aka. have premium time and tier 8 premium tanks to farm credits. aka spend money and play the game even more
On top of that some tanks are only penable with premium ammo, some weakspots only get weakspot if u fire gold
-> that leads to another issue that those tanks would get very hard buffed if gold ammo would do less damage, it was tested one time (that premium amo does less damage) but the feedback was rly bad

So I think people just want to leave it as it is

I much prefer the WoTB way, but the maps are way diffrent in wotb so you cant rly compare it that simple, its way easier to flank in wotb

[burnt venture]

Calibers and alphas (mix of current + next update since not everything is out yet):

Yoh's 105mm, Vickers' 105mm, and 140's 100mm: 300
T-22's and T-100's 100mm, Batchat's 105mm: 310
Kpz 50T's 105mm and 907's 100mm: 320
132-1's 105mm and T-62A's 100mm: 330
Patton and E50M's 105mm: 340
Leo's 105mm: 360

50B's 120mm, Carro's 120mm, Concept's 110mm: 380
120mm guns and IS-4's 122mm: 400
4005's 123mm: 410
260's 122mm and Type 71's 120mm: 420
777's 122mm: 430
Yoh's 120mm: 450
Normal 130mm and 12.8cm guns: 460
VZ-55's 130mm gun: 470
MLE's 130mm gun: 480
Mino's 130mm gun: 490

Foch's 155mm: 500
Ho Ri's 14.9cm: 560
Grille's 15cm: 580
60TP's 152mm and VK72's 15cm: 600
WZ-114 SP2's 152mm: 620
E4's 155mm: 630
268v4's 152mm: 650
E100's 15cm and E3's 155mm: 680
268's 152mm: 690

I can't wait for people next update who didn't read every single word in the patch notes to start calling "hacker" when their previous game knowledge is rendered completely useless in this barrage of meaningless alpha damage changes for "diversity" reasons.

[keen dew]

lol already found somethin wrong
268 does 670 now and 690 after update

[past birch]

Go buff Somua reload

[wooden lynx]

Yeah and there goes the Foch 155 with a 155mm gun having 500 alpha

[teal crystal]

WG needs better balancing department, Tier 10 will be ruined like low tiers where only a few tanks will be the best because WG nerfed the rest into oblivion

[odd night]

Grille maybe could have used either a more substantial dpm buff either a slight camo buff in exchange for that alpha nerf. I like what they are doing with trying to male it a fast sniping td but the alpha went from 640 to 580 over those two updates without the tank seeing a major change to its other stats that compensated this. I think if they really want to make it super quick they should also buff backing speed so that yes you get spotted but you have time to run; or make it a dpm td; or just do the most logical thing and give it some 8-10 camo buff and let it there

Otherwise I really like all other changes they’re frankly great, the team has done a wonderful job. I believe the fv215b will be more flavorful and not necessarily that much worse as it seems from the text to some ppl. As a brit player im content with the changes as long as the three heavies differentiate and are balanced (one could fear that the chieftain now supersedes both others by a lot well have to see about that)

[river geode]

Wgs idiots what is the point of fv4202 Hesh gun now

[violet island]

it's just consistency for it and the rest of the line as they all lose dpm for the HESH gun

[twin egret]

Comet barely gains anything from the hesh gun, in fact, it's worse than just running with the regular gun. The hesh gun is semi-viable for the Cneutrion I though

[river geode]

They should have at least increased hesh alpha by 20 as well

[rustic locust]

😨😨😨

[odd night]

Where from ? Offigetb ?

[thorny timber]

It's just an is-8

[ember mountain]

the front hull and the fuel tanks on the back plus the roof MG clearly is from IS-4 man

also thats not even close to teh IS-8 turret

[thorny timber]

You didn't get the joke? Is4 is trash now,armor wise.

[exotic gorge]

we living in a world where stb-1 gets 300 penetration with 3.400+- dpm and is-4 and Vickers gets destroyed… so yeah, its hard to get a joke((

[ancient rampart]

Add KPZ 70s 152mm to 560

[inland talon]

Um can we get the old 152 plus 183 sound back? i like the old school big gun sounds ngl, its sounds more menacing

[unique scaffold]

60tp Lewandowski damage HE 680---> 800

[stone drum]

A medium tank... that's good??? The world is going to end and balance in the game will be destroyed now that heavy tanks complete dominance is upset.

[exotic gorge]

Where i said its good? Iam saying thats medium tank gameplay is going to die, because you literally cant do anything when will see Stb-1 as enemy. He has 300 penetration with same dpm as you or close, and he has an armored tank armor. Also his weapon hase all stats nice as all medium have. So… its going to be broken( and only question is will wargaming will say “we did it wrong” and debuff stb in 10.4 or like every game company will do this “we know better than our players” thing and resist until lose 10-20% of players.

[void siren]

You can just trade shots and watch it explode

[stone drum]

Medium tank gameplay is and has been dead for quite some time now, the STB-1 changes are a good change to give a medium a chance.

@exotic gorge you going to ignore ever faster heavies with guns just as good as mediums in addition to more armour and hp?

We have stuff like T95e6 & Strv k which are basically mediums but straight up better.

[exotic gorge]

What a chance? Why you always dreaming how you play on stb-1. Try to think about playing on something else having an Stb-1 as you opponent. 300 penetration, armor, good aim and speed. But why you saying that medium gameplay dead? I see 2 medium on our, and 2 mediums on opponents side literally every game. Medium gameplay not dead, thats first, and how only one tank fully buffed to be a monster can do it better?

[stone drum]

Heavies become ever more broken, but a single medium gets Buffed and people loose their minds.

[karmic lynx]

Hi

[exotic gorge]

Because medium doesn’t fight with heavies directly. And as a second, i dont see any heavy coming broken, maybe 70.01 a little bit powerful. Thats all. Domt put your feeling on reality, because: for sure heavies going to have a deal with each others, as same as medium ones. For now we have only one monster (tvp 50/51) and now it will be another, thats going to make Medium side of maps unplayable for certain period of time.

[stone drum]

The reality is heavies have completely displaced mediums.

@void siren with that gamebreaking 300mm of pen lmao.

[void siren]

Stb may play like a pseudo td, which would be funny

That’s just td standard pen

[final warren]

STB will be strong, that's for sure. But there are so many other heavy tanks/TDs that are just as strong or stronger. Many TDs and heavies can also pen the STBs turret if they just aim. The STB only has good turret armor, so most players won't have the map knowledge or game sense to take advantage of it.

The STB getting buffed is just leveling the playing field. Every medium/light that is getting an alpha nerf should also be getting a pen buff as well.

@exotic gorge if mediums shouldn't fight heavies directly, then what do you propose they do? Heavies have been getting mobility buffs for years now, to the point where standard heavies have old helium mobility, and heviums have medium mobility. Flanking is very hard to do nowadays. Besides, most heavies that rely on armor can still bounce 300mm of pen. You are over reacting, the new STB won't be anywhere near the level of the TVP, and it isn't going to break the game

Also this isn't me saying mediums should fight heavies directly. I'm just pointing out that heavies are way too mobile

[kind thorn]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[void siren]

Oh my god the tanks getting its standard ammo nerfed, it’ll be overpowered I swear

The alpha is slightly worse, so op everyone!

It’s not like every single tank in the game can pen the cupola

[hushed pulsar]

needs a buff T44-100

[exotic gorge]

Witch heavies? E100, lewandovskiego, or maybe T110E5? Nope, its Stvr K and T65E6 with Not much armor (as same as medium’s have). The name of being “Heavy” doesn’t make it really heavy. Also some heavies gonna lose more armor, or like Object 260 will lose mobility. And the best question: are you realy playing on mediums to fight heavies directly? Because if not, if uou use mobility and speed, i dont understand that “But heavy’s” argument. Stb-1 is doing to fight with another Mediums, than vehicles like Fv215(183) and st st, but not with heavies FOREHEAD TO FOREHEAD…. Now seeing this argument i understood how Wargaming balance is working. Insane. Insane.

[void siren]

Stb-1 is gonna either remain the same or be worse

I honestly don’t see the difference

It’ll be able to pen silly heavies, but that’s it
No alpha to trade

[unique scaffold]

I’m bored so I decided to check the reviews from when Strv K was being introduced. Everyone in the comment section seems to say it’s a really bad tank. Let that know WG why this channel is a bad idea

[worldly mica]

That is because the community is not always right and they do not always really know if something will work or not, that is why you always have to wait to try it on your own before giving your opinion without knowing

[void siren]

They were under the illusion it was a heavy

It’s a med killer - the ideal one

[final warren]

The E5, T57, t95e6, concept, obj 260, 215b, chief, WZ 113, 5a, amx 50b, strv.

Those are all heavy tanks that have enough mobility to quickly counter and react to a flank.

I'm not sure why you think mediums only fight mediums. Usually the team goes the same way, meaning that everyone is fighting everyone. Sure, mediums will fight mediums too, but there are usually more heavies than mediums meaning that there's often a medium vs heavy battle.

If you are so concerned about STB fighting mediums, then simply don't fight the STB on its playing field, or HE it's modules. Heavies won't have a problem fighting against 300mm of pen. I would rather have 340 mm of pen and low dmg for my prammo.

[unique scaffold]

Sorry forgot to include this top comment from HRF video

[exotic gorge]

I’am going to lose my mind… talking about balance of a medium tank comparing it with heavy tanks..

Yeah lets do everything same, because someones fights with E5 and concept on mediums and cant easily deal with them.

And the beautiful argument came: dont play on stb-q side. Yeah… i have better one: dont play on medium. Or dont play game…

Iam out, thats not logical arguments coming. If u cant easily penetrate those heavies, witch not even close to mediums on speed, thats… oh

[mild igloo]

t10 tanks make way to little credits
when playing without premium you basicaly brake even on creddits on most games

[willow hawk]

The problem is, WG wants to nerf medium tank penetration. Along with alpha.
MTs should have been getting penetration buffs, or at least remain the same.

[final warren]

I'm probably misunderstanding you, because I'm having a hard time understanding what you are writing.

Why wouldn't you compare medium tanks to heavy tanks? They are in the same game and should be balanced as such.

Is your argument actually "people shouldn't play medium tanks"?

@willow hawk Yeah, they have had a vendetta against mediums and lights for a couple years now, it sucks

[mild igloo]

i agree that heavies need to be compared to meds and lights
when a heavy pushes med side you have massive problems and often you cant outpositioin them as the game i find is often about holding angles
playing ranked when you are the only med it sucks as you are gonna need to fight heavies

[remote oriole]

To be fair the Strv K is not that dominant in randoms. Nevertheless, to me this just shows that people have no concept of how stats translate to in-game performance, hence why I find the preliminary feedback to the current balance changes oftentimes superfluous

[void siren]

The Strv k is really meh in randoms

[unique scaffold]

Personally I’ve never had 90%+ wr for 200+ battles in a tier 10 until strv came.
Even in TVP or Type

[void siren]

You’re overpowered

[mild igloo]

im a bit mad about fv215b rebalance
im mostly done with conq and will have it soon but it just got effectively nerfed despite it being one of the worst t10 heavies

[remote oriole]

A few exceptional players don‘t make a tank overpowered. It has to be a considerable portion for their influence to be felt

[mystic gorge]

@charred comet is it possible for you to reveal the T110E5 armor changes to the hull and turret?

[burnt venture]

The Strv K is being nerfed simply because of its overuse in competitive. Which is strange considering most players actually have a neutral or negative opinion of the tank.

If WG doesn't do this Strv K change correctly, it may just die as a premium.

[teal crystal]

no wonder I got it for 5$

[mystic gorge]

Well unfortunately, comp meta matters as well. It will most likely get nerfed to the point where it’s not used in comp. And as a result most likely mediocre in pubs. Same way Kran/e5/is4 were hard nerfed in 8.2 to make sure their usage in comp was minuscule

[willow hawk]

WG balancing tanks based on tournaments is by far one of the worse ways to alter tank parameters. Each team has their own strategy and relying on tournaments is a skewed method to find ways to rebalance tanks

[burnt venture]

I mean it was either nerf Strv K, or actually make good mediums.

[stone drum]

Where do you see that at? I haven't seen anything confirming a Strv k nerf. Considering the treatment obj 777 II got, I wouldn't get your hopes up either.

[clear shuttle]

the 777 II hasnt been nearly as relevant in comp than the strv K

[twin egret]

Ehh WZ-113 still slow (in traverse)

[final warren]

It has 40° of hull traverse, I wouldn't consider that slow.

That's with skills, equipment, and provisions

@twin egret It's 40° on hard terrain. Medium is 34 and soft is 28. The only time you are on slow terrain is if you're somewhere you shouldn't be

[twin egret]

40 degrees yes, but factor in terrain resistances. It's really slow on soft

[wooden lynx]

Aren't everything slow on soft terrain?

[twin egret]

No not everything. Pharaoh tank for example

[final warren]

But is there a reason for pointing it out? 99% of tanks have terrible mobility on soft terrain compared to hard or medium. You shouldn't be on soft terrain in the first place.

Just because a tank has bad mobility on soft terrain doesn't mean it's slow. It just means don't drive through water or other soft places... Like any other tank.

[twin egret]

I dunno, it's medium terrain is also bad

[final warren]

Well of course it's worse being on hard terrain, and it's still 34 degrees of traverse, and 36 with breakthrough.

My point still stands, heavies are faster than they used to, making flanking less viable.

[wanton lynx]

Same....it already has no armor

[clear shuttle]

as i think synx said, tanks like the is-7, 113 and stuff had high top speeds at the cost of traverse, but now most of those tanks now actually have good traverse while still maintaining 45kph top speed
like when the 113 still turned like a boat it had a 50kph top speed, now it actually has traverse even if its top speed is 45kph (which is still fast)

[nimble zodiac]

Well, IS-7 had it nerfed from 50km/h to 45km/h but yeah

[stone drum]

Well to be fair, tanks that have absolutely awful turning aren't really fun to play.

[exotic girder]

AMX-30B deserves DPM buff and return of the 68kph topspeed

[spring leaf]

WZ 122 TM needs turret armour, on movement dispersion and better armour penetration buff 💀

[void siren]

It needs

To be a heavy

[spring leaf]

Then why is it called a med?

That's the reason for better stats

[clear shuttle]

its a chimera with better turret armour in exchange for pretty much everything else

[void siren]

(It has heavy level power to weight and speed)

[final warren]

Well to be fair, tanks that ruin the game aren't really fun to play

[twin egret]

Tanks in general imo need an extreme to be fun. Whether that is speed, mobility, Dpm, armour, they should also have a big downside too so it's balanced out.

[final warren]

Exactly

[acoustic estuary]

They are tho. Fun is a one way feeling lad.

[burnt venture]

That's pretty incorrect. Actually, that's IMO part of what's causing WG's "give and take" balancing to overly favor heavys and TDs, as well as continue to screw over a lot of mediums.

It's ok for certain tanks to have extremes, and yes a lot of people might find fun in those extremes. But there's also a lot of tanks which do well and are enjoyable when they're just solid in all aspects without significant upsides or downsides.

Give and take balancing which "enhances strengths and weaknesses" work great for heavys and TDs which are already balanced with extremes. But the massive downside is that it throws a lot of medium and light tanks which rely specifically on a good combination of all relevant stats to work.

If you have a superheavy tank, it makes a ton of sense to enhance firepower, armor, and reduce mobility. If you have a clipper it makes sense that it would give up things to have that kind of firepower. If you have a TD it makes sense for it to give up stats in exchange for more firepower, armor, or mobility.

But if you have a medium with no gimmicks, which relies on a combination of decent DPM, gun handling, mobility, camo / viewrange, and armor, give-and-take balancing absolutely screws with this formula. It makes good mediums which are very solid in all situations into something with an intended playstyle that isn't going to compete well with other tanks which are already made for those extreme roles.

Current balancing sucks for mediums because we are taking these well-rounded swiss army knives, messing up the balancing, and shoving these tanks into roles which cannibalize each other. Balancing with extremes is part of what's killing the diversity in mediums and lights right now. Just look at how many of these "passive farming" tanks we have already.

[final warren]

Nah you're wrong. It's measurable. When players start leaving the game because balance is broken, the game isn't fun.

The game isnt there yet, but a game with a lack of diversity doesn't usually do well. And continuing this heavy meta is going to do that

[acoustic estuary]

Interesting.

[twin egret]

Meds are different because they are mediums, and they are more towards a jack of all trades in that, with an extreme in one area or another. You have mediums focusing more on fire power, some on armour, others on mobility

[uneven turtle]

The E50M in question:

[twin egret]

Yeah but the down side is that it has a pew pew gun and a heshable lowerplate now

[burnt venture]

It's still completely true though that those extremes go nowhere close to other classes.

Whether it be a Leo 1 or an E50M or a 4202 or a 62A, they all have slightly different extremes. But they all share similar traits. Mediums in general have excellent gun handling and DPM and decent mobility and higher viewrange and decent camo regardless of which medium you pick. Even their extremes don't go as far as other classes.

No matter how you do it, meds aren't going to spot or be sneaky like a light tank, they aren't going to have armor like a heavy, you aren't going to have firepower that rivals TDs. So when a medium gives up any kind of trait it hurts them drastically more than heavy tanks, because they rely on a combination of ALL of their traits to work properly.

Meds having no actual existing downside to enhance means that they just get nerfs which impact their gameplay so much more than the nerfs done to other classes

[final warren]

It's true. Look at all the different entertainment companies and games that fail. They aren't fun, so they go under. In the business sense, "fun" isn't an opinion. It's a statistic

[stone drum]

Never had a 68kph top speed, that's just droodles having absolutely no clue what he is talking about.

@twin egret I was alluding to the AMX m4 mle. 54, as it turns painfully slow

[stone drum]

Yeah, but turning at 30° is ridiculous.

[twin egret]

You choose that tank to play, you knew what was coming. If you don't like it play something with more mobility

[vital ingot]

what do yalls think about the vk90 after update 10.3?

[fickle shoal]

average doodles moment

[uneven turtle]

Y’all complain abt mts then my m48 having 65% wr with 2.6k average. While my is 7 2.5k average with 62wr. Both have roughly same amount of battles yet I perform better in my patton.

[stone drum]

Well yes the mediums may have swiss army knife, but heavies happen to have bayonets and that goes just about as well as it sounds.

[final warren]

Congrats, you're a medium tanks player. I am too

[teal crystal]

Lorraine buff I suggest
280 alpha × 4 shells, inter-clip reload remove 2 seconds

make intraclip 2.0S between shells with better aimtime, increase dispersion, penetration stays the same

[uneven turtle]

As far as I’m concerned. With the heavy meta I’m sure u know u can’t face hug hts or circle if death them. Bayonets sure. Mediums have the capacity to be a sniper. Ht in case you forgot does not nearly have as accurate guns as mts or rof

[acoustic estuary]

Sorry i find winning and destroying people more fun then competition. 🤷‍♂️

[final warren]

If you want armor, you need to sacrifice mobility or mobility + firepower. If you want mobility, you sacrifice armor or armor + firepower. If you want firepower, you sacrifice armor or mobility.

As Nick Miller would say, "You have to choose! You can't have both women!"

@acoustic estuary Yeah I figured, you're looking at short term fun, I'm looking at long term

[willow hawk]

Why isn’t this man on the balance auditing team. Because his logic makes more sense than any of WG’s balance decisions thus far.

[teal crystal]

ahh the engineering triangle

[uneven turtle]

Who do you think will win, a platoon of hts or a platoon of mts/lts?

[stone drum]

Yes, but some faster french heavies turn extremely slow.

[final warren]

And those heavy tanks are supposed to have their own weaknesses to counter that fact.

@uneven turtle It depends on the skill of the toon and the map. Assuming skill is the same, the heavy tanks will usually win a 2v2 against mediums

[stone drum]

That's weird, why not just outright add the correct 100mm SA47?

[teal crystal]

because we already have AMX 50 100

[teal crystal]

depends on their skill, but they can also be trolls in disguise

[uneven turtle]

Quite the opposite. I actually tested this question with some comp friends. Normally the faster tanks wins the fight. We tested a lot of possible platoon combinations. E100 platoon against Russian mts. HTs lost both matches. Is7 platoon against the besh 4202. IS7 wins. Type 71(pre mobility nerf) against stb. Draw. Leo 1 against vk 72. Leo won. 60 tp against tvp. Tvp won( not surprised). Wz 133 against the patton. Wz won by small margin. See a pattern?

Hts can only win if they CAN keep up with mts. I left out amx 50b cus they dominated me too many times. I never once got close to the hts. I only out spotted them. Should they ever spot me I’ll relocate and be safe. Hts aren’t fast though they have traverse. I tested this and also found out it’s only in open areas where hts excel. Platoon against platoon. As mobile tanks y’all need to stop going out in the open. Comp players I remind you. All above 5500 rating

[final warren]

Well, that's not the average player. Most players are 45-55%.

I suppose it's worth noting though. Did you test a 7v7 with heavys vs meds? That'd be interesting to hear

[teal crystal]

heavies would win a 7v7 if the map was small, larger maps mediums would maneuver easier to absolutely destroy heavies

[uneven turtle]

I don’t think 7 hts exist or 7 mts exist. We did platoons cus it’s common for these matches to happen

We tried to be as realistic as possible

[stone drum]

So? It's supposed to use that gun, I see no reason why it shouldn't.

[final warren]

Yeah it won't happen in a real match, I was just wondering if you did it just to do it.

I think with a 2v2 the heavies aren't able to get enough nap control to fight the meds effectively. A 7v7 would allow the heavy tanks to create zones and pen the mediums in I think

[burnt venture]

The stats and competitive tank picks clearly point to HTs performing much better than MTs. I don't know why this even is a discussion.

[uneven turtle]

If we ever tried 7 ht vs 7 mt the balanc gap will become too wide. Hts do well in numbers. Mts do well in out spotting in cover. Try a 7 v 7 and neither strengths can be properly utilised.

It’s hard for people to really understand the potential for mts to be dangerous in situations like when in a 1 on 1 against a HT. As long as the mts are unspotted the hts are constantly in more danger than the mt

[uneven turtle]

People pick ht for the fighting capabilities cus they don’t trust their team(occasionally). More ht picks = more ht wins. I play mt because I want to be able to be safe from fighting hts head on while still have the gun capability to tear them down. I don’t need high speeds. I just need to be able to relocate before they can get to me. People don’t see the bigger picture. They think armour + gun is everything. But what’s the point if u can’t see the enemy and they can see you

[stone drum]

Honestly I think a minor buff to medium tank hp, base dispersion, and a decent sized buff to medium tank prammo penetration would be overall beneficial for game health.

@teal crystal their is literally zero issue with adding the only gun it ever had onto the tank, it's so stupid its stuck with ARL's 90mm.

[uneven turtle]

Chat gpt but anyway

[teal crystal]

AMX 50 100 gun on Lorraine would be too "toxic" according to some people

[solid copper]

Tornvagan was introduced after ChatGPT's 2021 LLM was even created. But, AI can help to express an argument, for a poor tank with great artwork that needs major buffs.

[stone drum]

Back when AMX 50 100 was way weaker it was fine, but if you just gave Lorraine the old 3 shot (with lower dpm) 100mm Sa47 it would be perfectly fine in todays meta.

[uneven turtle]

Cuh. When torn is in hulldown virtually nothing can pen you. Just aim in and you’ll get yourself a shot. No need for accuracy buffs. Just take your time. No punishments

[void siren]

It’s meant to suck - the turret armor is so good, the rest of the tank should burn

[solid copper]

Its armour is no good at all unless behind cover, like all tanks that hide resis plates. The problem is getting to cover with a slow tank that shoots slowsly witha reticle that aims slowly. It should not be sold on the market in the condition it is in. I would be surpised if it isnlt the worst performing battle tank for winrate comparisons, in the WOTB game.

[uneven turtle]

Dude. Tornvang is strong as it is. 290MM+ effective armour on the turret. Stop yoloing and play your strengths. Stop exposing your hull cause it’s weak as hell. Go hulldown and use your 10 damn degrees of gum depression and mind you, thats ALOT.

Just sit at a single spot for 6 seconds, aim, fire, reverse to cover in case, and repeat. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re a 45% player that wants a brain Dead tank

[solid copper]

You are going into battle in a Tier 8 tanks against a 53TP stock tank that already is the same speed and has a 50 HP head start on you! Also, a Rate of Fire 5.0 compared to a Tier 7 KV-3 with a Rate of Fire 6.0

[uneven turtle]

Again. Tornvang can trash a 53tp that is strong as long as you know how to hulldown. And I play ratings mainly. Ratings = maxed crew and no stock modules

It’s funny how arguments against noobs can turn into; “you’re playing against stock noobs that still has more Hp than you!” I guess it’s just unfair for players going against german superheavies. Hmm doc?

[uneven turtle]

HP arguments are not valid and they will never be valid ever.

[uneven turtle]

What use is rate of fire if they can’t find a place to pen you. Think.

[solid copper]

Just played one and they can! Go to your room!

[uneven turtle]

Imagine overexposing hull .only thing that can pen you are tds with high pen but ok. Keep crying about sucking in a perfectly strong tank

[hardy bronze]

Having just peeked at the Tornvagns gun handling stats vs other 120mm armed tier 8 heavies, it's pretty on par if not better than most. The turret hulldown would require a heavy using prammo+calibrated to have a chance to pen a rather small target

Sure it may struggle to stop a TD or a tier 9, but tier 9s tend to be very strong vs tier 8s. As long as you wiggle the turret a little bit until you're about to fire and then pull down into cover, you should be okay most of the time

[mortal falcon]

in my opinion you still have lots of room to improve.

also: 1) hitpoints are very important since they're essentially a "currency" with which you can "trade" for damage and position.
2) tornvagn is garbage and i hope it stays that way. terrible to play and fight because it's unfun (poor statistics to "compensate" for overwhelming turret armor, it leads to just frustration on user end and in enemy end since it results in passive gameplay). if it was actually "good" it would be egregiously overpowered, literally just dropping a concept 1b at tier 8.

[final warren]

Oh I don't know, maybe we like having a conversation? I don't know why you even joined the discussion

[burnt venture]

Whether you like having a conversation or not, all I saw was "but I did testing by myself on X" or "When I play, I have better stats in X so this must be better". Those are not even close to being valid reasons to argue against overall 55-65% player performance.

And then there's this dude doing testing with 2v2s which don't reflect at all how heavy tanks impact gameplay in randoms nor competitive. Even in 2v2 tourneys, using mediums within a restricted, smaller map is usually a death sentence.

"It won't happen in a real match" = This is entirely a pointless maneuver that has no value when speaking about the game itself

[mortal falcon]

man's playing QTs and he's trying to pass that as full-blown "competitive experience" 💀

[stone drum]

Welll clearly since I have a 73% wr in AMX-30b and only a 58% wr in badger, AMX-30b must be infinitely better than badger which must be an absolutely awful tank

[uneven turtle]

It seems to me that a lot of the player base don’t understand mt playstyle. What you guys are really trying to say is that mt just suck because they don’t excel in anything and in head-on their dead. So y’all just front line mts against ht?

@stone drum thx for saying u play worse in a meta td and somehow manage a mt better

[burnt venture]

Lmao this dude saw there's a heavy meta and just told all of us "skill issue"

This is like the 3rd time I've had to post this thing in the last week. Do YOU see any mediums outside of #20 on this chart?

[stone drum]

@uneven turtle
That's not the point, the point is individual player statistics are
unreliable. Me doing worse in badger is my skill issue at play.

[uneven turtle]

k my point is if played well mts do good but I can see what you’re trying to say.

And as I’ve said @burnt venture , more ht picks = more ht wins. The player base has been molded into an idea that hts are the best and rarely see the good in the other tanks. Hence since they don’t see the good in other tanks they often get overlooked when it comes to choosing a tank for battle.

[final warren]

That wouldn't change the average win rate though.

Or are you talking about the general consensus on the best tank class?

[solid sequoia]

More HT picks = more reliable data. We’re dealing with millions of battles played, for both heavies and mediums. Saying that battle count is skewing the data is clearly false.

[uneven turtle]

An average team would have 3-4 hts, 1-2 mts, 1-3 tds. Since a lot more hts are played than mts, their wr are changing more frequently than mts

[burnt venture]

That makes no sense lmao

If heavy tanks are NOT the best pick for good players but are being played very often, then good players playing mediums would play against HTs more often and win more, right? If mediums can beat heavy tanks most of the time, then mediums would see MORE playerbase as people realize that meds are better than heavy tanks.

But here we see 55-65%ers are actually just winning more in HTs. So mediums clearly are just not better than heavy tanks. If meds were a better pick, wouldn't you think that good players would be playing meds more + winning in meds more?

Higher popularity of tanks can be due to a variety of things. But lower popularity for any kind of tank clearly signal that something is wrong with the tank which makes players stay away from it.

You have no idea how wr correlates with popularity. And even then, you can say there's more heavy tanks in the queue but we are ONLY TALKING ABOUT 55-65% wr players here

[solid sequoia]

That’s the opposite. Higher game numbers interact with the law of large numbers better. Medium tank winrate is going to be more volatile, but even still it’s millions of battles being played so it’s going to be very, very close to the actual number

[uneven turtle]

Good players always go for the best possible options to boost their wr safely.

You have better points than me tenfold,

but I’m just one person in a sea of hundreds of thousands of players observing the current meta. And I don’t use meta I use tanks that I can influence the battle with albeit more effort.

[burnt venture]

Ok? But what you decide to play / what you perform in best has nothing to do with the meta which includes EVERYONE lol

People go to heavy tanks to win more. And that's fact

[mortal falcon]

"You're right, but I will still claim victory"

[uneven turtle]

I don’t know your point but ok.

@burnt venture I’m not disagreeing. As I’ve said good players go for the best option to boost wr. But I can’t see why people keep beating down mts

@solid sequoia , they play ht but not mt due to hearing heavy meta(I’m sure 70% of ppl play ht due to that sole reason) so I understand when pros judge but I’m hearing alot of people who are too used to ht and they use the ht playstyle on mt, aka aggressive front lining and dying then complaining

[solid sequoia]

If people are going for the best option, and they’re choosing heavy tanks, then meds obviously aren’t as good. That’s why people keep beating down meds.

[spring leaf]

No, Chimera has 440 alpha when the WZ 122 TM has 400 flat alpha so Chimera hits way harder just way less armour on the turret and hull

[mortal falcon]

Player skill has a factor in literally every tank class, but when you look at Top 4 and consistently see almost full-heavy lineups with a sprinkling of TVP (overpowered) and T-100LT (still best light), I think it should tell you that heavy tanks are way too good. Especially when they've been DOMINANTLY meta since, what, 2020 (Sheridan)?

[uneven turtle]

What’s the most important thing in the game? Vision. That’s indisputable. Only then will the hts know where to invest their strength in. Hts are strong when they come against opponents that’s fact but if their blind then what’s the point? Just free damage farm. Heavies are just as team reliant as mts. Mobile tanks are the eyes hts are the ones that fight front line

MTS assist and fufill roles of LTs if need be. If no choice they front line with hts.
HTs draw attention, gets hit, back just as hard.
Those are play styles.
Even you know t100 lt is the best lt due to the low profile, and on-movement concealment along with tracer shells. That’s our common ground

[teal crystal]

destroyers having a good time for now because WG balancing decided to nerf dispersion forcing them to pressure heavies, heavies that have like 1K less dpm usually

[glacial basin]

I think the type 71 should have 420 alpha

[mystic gorge]

My man did not read the changes did he. Reading helps ya know….

[humble depot]

If heavies are just fighting heavies, why does view range matter? They’re going to find each other at about the same time anyways.

If heavy tanks are so overly played that MTs and LTs are often not being played in matches, then your point is null and void.

[coarse citrus]

I think the 122mm on the T-44 need buff

[gloomy patio]

i agree, vision is the most important thing in the game, anyone with half decent vision would be able to see the heavy meta we are in rn

[amber yacht]

it is literally one of the strongest tier 8s in the game. I argue it does not need a buff. Its speed can seem slow every now and then, but take a look at your speed. Most of the time it can be going 30-35 which is impressive for a heavy and im not talking about going downhill cause then it'd go even more faster. The reload speed is fine the way it is. It's DPM isnt supposed to be good for its type. Assuming your a Tornvagn owner, if you play other tier 8 tanks, would you like to be pounded with 400 alpha constantly without any misses,and without being able to penetrate your hulldown opponent? Also your only proposing all buffs on this already amazing tank. Other tanks like the Wz112-2 need it more or other tech trees,n ot premiums

[twilit crystal]

No they don't. They play like anyone else to maximize their fun . They may weight ainrate more heavily in their fun factor but not all of it

[nimble zodiac]

OP tanks are generally boring for experienced players, especially those that value their own skill to have fun.

If a good player uses a heavy tank to completely crush a medium tank, they don’t have that much fun beating them. They won because their tank can just oppress a medium tank that has less HP, firepower, and armor. A good player would likely prefer that they win based on their skill making the difference in a fair fight

Also people exposing their skill issue by making an AI write their one-sided argument for buffs on an OP tank, worded with such sophistication that there’s no way someone who is smart enough to write that well would agree with what was written 😂

[uneven turtle]

Compliments of @solid copper

[mild igloo]

i think tvp 50/51 needs longer interclip same as it had before or remove one shell
1.5 interclip is plenty to justify the lower alpha compared to batchat and progetto
with 1.5 reload and 4 shells there is too much firepower to reasonably balance the tank
tvp is the 183 of mediums ither broken or unreliable
i think chaniging to 3 shells is the only way to fix the balance
t9 tvp is viable with 2.5 interclip and 3 shells moving t10 tvp with 4 shells AND 1.5 interclip changes the way t9 tend to be very simular to t10 way too much
there is no autoloader t10 medium only autoreloader and batchat (LT) so the gimmick of 4 shells isnt necessary to keep the tank unique with the 1.5 interclip

[carmine plover]

For the average players, heavies bring you more towards the middle performance, as you most likely will be one of three heavies holding the heavy route. So your solo performance is not that influencing. In a medium you will be most probably facing a single or max of two mediums. Winning the flank (in 90% of games) will decide who wins the game.
That's why most high wr players will decide for a mobile heavy and go to the flank if they are willing to win, not only to have fun.
So the thing is more of a maps-design related than of a tanks design

[nimble zodiac]

High WR players play mobile heavies because they end up being better mediums

[unborn apex]

Obliterating the 215b through nerfs and then giving its legendary camo as event, is this a joke?

[twin egret]

the cupola as a weakspot is gonna be even bigger now 💀, effective cupola armour is pretty much the same as the Conquerors

[unborn apex]

113 and 215b are the only tech tree t10 HTs that i enjoy the most, and if 113 gets nerfed the same way as 215b idk if I'll be playing these tanks ever again.

[unique scaffold]

Grille 15 and fv 215b 183 gone dead :/

[teal cargo]

I wish the Sheridan missile had a little more on the cali shells. I have to spam my atgm's to pen 😡

[final warren]

I'm a medium tank player. I usually have slightly more win rate in my medium tanks, but that is because medium tanks fit my mobile play style better (and I can't figure out how to play slow tanks).

Despite that, I can recognize that it's simply more difficult (not in a good way) to play mediums compared to heavies. I've been playing for 9 years and know all the maps, all the reloads, view ranges, etc. All of that is taken advantage of in a medium.

In a heavy, I have so much armor, HP, and enough mobility to effectively react to mediums, that they aren't even that much of a threat unless it's a good player.

In my medium, every heavy tank is a huge mass of HP that just covers up the player's mistakes. They take 1k dmg pushing me? Doesn't matter. They still have 1.3k HP and can just trade me down to a one or two shot unless I relocate.

As I said, I'm a much better medium tank player, but I only get slightly better win rate in my meds. Before the heavy tank meta, i was probably 10% better in my meds. Now? The difference is < 5%. I'm good enough to know that the huge HP pool is just cushioning all my mistakes, and that I'm not actually any better at playing heavies

[burnt venture]

I'm a med main as well, and IMO when I play heavy tanks it's hilariously simple and easy in comparison.

With mediums and lights you have to have top awareness, because literally anything can kill you. heavys, TDs, 183s, 4 shot clippers, literally everything is a threat.

If you play a heavy... yeah I can AFK in spawn for 60 seconds, get rushed by 3 tanks, and still make an impact because of how much HP I have and how hard I am to kill even just in the open.

There's no comparing the two. Heavy tanks in this game are hella smoothbrain

[mortal falcon]

Vision experiences diminishing returns - a single light is extremely valuable, a second one much less so, a third one is practically throwing. Why? Heavies are exceptionally mobile and they have HP. They can survive being the target of focus. They have armor to perhaps bounce a stray shot, or much more. They generally also have higher alpha than mediums, allowing for quick and efficient clears of a focused target.

For pubs? Vision maybe matters like 10% at best just because a) everyone goes to the same general places and b) pubbies are very uncoordinated. The ability to survive and keep doing damage (HINT: ARMOR AND HP) means that heavies are far too forgiving and strong even from a pub standpoint.
Just to put it into perspective, a medium taking a 183 HESH shot just lost about 65-70% of its HP. A heavy? 40-50%. And mediums are way easier to HESH pen due to their generally weaker armor. The survivability difference is just massive.

Small map size = brawls are inevitable. When that happens, heavies dominate.

[tepid quest]

🇬🇧 FV4005 The reverse speed is set down from 15 to 10 km/h and The "Reticle Calibration consumable will no longer be available

This is like one the worst changes they've made just please stop this nonsense don't do this

[bronze leaf]

Why would they nerf Super Conqueror HE penetration by 50? This is nonsense. If I were at wargaming I would give it same HE penetration as FV215b

[acoustic estuary]

Thus making 215b completly useless?

[unique scaffold]

Enhancing the AMX 50 100 in World of Tanks Blitz is essential to align its historical accuracy, promote diverse gameplay, and maintain competitive balance. By boosting its performance, players can engage in more strategic and rewarding battles, fostering player retention and skill development. Moreover, a buffed AMX 50 100 would add variety to tank selections, enriching the overall gaming experience and contributing to a healthier game meta.

[willow hawk]

What medium tanks DO NOT NEED:

Penetration nerfs
alpha nerfs
gun handling nerfs
gun reload nerfs

What defines a medium tank?
A medium tank’s classification is not actually based on weight, but off tactical usage and intended purpose…
…[M]edium tanks represent the designer’s intent of producing a successful balance of firepower, mobility, and protection.
• “Medium Tank” —Wikipedia 😂

Nerfing alpha and penetration for slightly faster reload times is a net nerf to medium tanks, and this rebalancing sacrifice is unwarranted. As someone said earlier up the feed, this change forces medium tanks to peek/expose themselves more frequently, thus increasing chances of getting hit. MTs already have a mediocre HP pool (1800-1900 HP). More frequent exposure to play MTs means more difficult MT gameplay.

At this point in time, MTs are completely outclassed by other tank classes. Light tanks have better acceleration and speed. Tank Destroyers have larger caliber, high penetration guns (with or without heavy armor). Heavy tanks have high HP pool, now buffed speed and traverse, hard hitting guns, and heavy armor.

This is why medium tanks rely on a strong combination of mobility, armor, and firepower. Nerfing nearly any aspect of MTs will highly impact their performance.

When rebalancing medium tanks, the buffs and nerfs must be complementing.
Ex: nerf armor, thus buff mobility, vice versa.

[final warren]

I agree, except for the light tank part. Many mediums are more mobile than lights once you account for terrain resistance. Light tanks only advantage is camo

[unique scaffold]

While the perspective presented highlights the importance of maintaining the balance of medium tanks, it's crucial to consider the overall game dynamics and avoid overlooking potential issues. The argument against nerfing penetration and alpha damage for slightly faster reload times may not fully address the need for a well-rounded gameplay experience.

Rather than focusing solely on the downsides of more frequent exposure, it's worth noting that this change could encourage medium tank players to adopt more strategic and cautious approaches, enhancing the tactical depth of battles. Moreover, the comparison between medium tanks and other classes may not account for the unique strengths and roles that medium tanks can bring to the battlefield, such as versatility and adaptability.

Rebalancing mediums doesn't necessarily mean compromising their role; it's about refining their gameplay mechanics to ensure they have a meaningful impact in various scenarios. By selectively adjusting aspects like armor, mobility, and firepower, game developers have the opportunity to maintain the essence of medium tanks while fostering engaging and balanced gameplay interactions across all tank classes.

[willow hawk]

@unique scaffold The whole point of my post was that WG wasn’t doing this…at all. Why are you writing a pointless book report on my opinion, and repeating what I said? The whole purpose of a medium tank is “tactical” gameplay. But thus far, the changes are hurting medium tanks more than it is helping. There is a widening performance gap between MTs and heavies. TDs are near impossible to flank.
You’re whole “just flank” argument can be countered here. Refer to what Synx says.

[hollow vapor]

Why we nerfing medium alphas in the coming updates 😦 Same for grille alpha, I legit don't understand that at all. The gun's like the only good thing about that tank. It got nerfs to mobility, camo (a long time ago), and other stuff

[willow hawk]

WG balance department was hijacked. Or, the boss called in sick.

Ngl, maybe they’re just doing this to get a reaction out of us. Then they laugh behind their screens, entertained by us freaking out. Implements balance changes and ignores us anyway

[river geode]

Hope they buff wz 132-1

[humble depot]

We don’t need another autoloader annoying people in Tier 8.

[willow hawk]

Dude is just there to spurt wasted words that add no meaningful value to the discussion.

[stone drum]

I'm sorry, but aimless AI points aren't legitimate arguments. Infact, as of current the AMX 50 100 is not even correctly modelled.

[burnt venture]

Idk why tier 8 LTs can go 70kph + but WG are so reluctant to let tier X LTs go that fast

[civic topaz]

@solid copper It would be preferred if your points and arguments came from your own head and not from ChatGPT

And that applies to everybody else here as well

[bronze leaf]

I mean we paid for it. I don't say give it's exact stats. Give it more HE pen so it aligns with what the British tanks are. Same for chieftain mk6. Make their HE pen base 170mm

[final warren]

Honestly, light tanks are supposed to trade armor and firepower for mobility, but they get outclassed by mediums in mobility (HP/lb), firepower, and armor. Light tanks only get better camo and slightly higher top speeds.

[willow hawk]

Tracer shell gimmick too, for some

[stone drum]

If have serious such issues, you can always message me if you need help writing an arguement or such.

[final warren]

Mediums get mechanics too tho

[willow hawk]

Such as? (I can’t think of any)

[final warren]

As of now they don't have any. I just meant that they will be getting mechanics in the future. The obj 907, for example, will be getting shell tracers in the balance update.

[gleaming apex]

x_7warrior_93458#0 has been warned.

[unique scaffold]

Lowered the armor of the Type 71 by a few mm because it is very mobile with hard to penetrated armor

[unique scaffold]

fr why aint the sheri / t92 go 72, or at least 70. or at least enhance the power-to-weight of all toptier lights

[uneven turtle]

I don’t understand the reverse speed nerf but then I understand the reticle cali removal. It’s a stupid mechanic.

[remote oriole]

The reverse speed nerf is to allow tanks to return more shots after being clipped for ridiculous amounts of damage

[uneven turtle]

Say that to amx and all other fast auto loaders. Should have been a mass nerf.

Make auto loaders think about dumping

It’s clearly not bro. It’s just a slightly more armoured, more consistent, can flank, fully rot able turret than fv 4005 which is already busted

[acoustic estuary]

Amx 50b is fairly fair.

Big profile and he able armor, acurracy is eh but gets a good clip and nice mobility.

[stone drum]

Clearly all the AMX's are oh so oppressive and OP, especially the pesky AMX 13 90 & AMX AC 46.

Mass nerfs are overwhelming a bad idea.

@uneven turtle 50b has a 8.4s clipping time, also literally every heavy tank has a turret, such that's an irrelevant point.

[uneven turtle]

Once a mobile tank gets behind u or even a Wz 113 fv is as good as dead. Amx 50b has a fully rotatable turret so u can’t go behind it like a typical td and it’s traverse it’s relatively fast

Oh yeah let auto loaders not worry about peeking and throw out insanely high damage in less than 8 seconds tops

[acoustic estuary]

50b is not a td tho 😂🤦‍♂️
And are you complaining that you had a skill issue and got flanked / turned around 🤔
Oh also if you didn’t know, most autoloaders have a reload of -20+ seconds reload so ye, most of them have bad dpm so try maybe getting them while they reload.

Unless! You are playing a heavy. Autoloaders counter most slow tanks so ye. If you don’t want this issue play something fast with good dpm. ( lights / mediums )
Also if you can’t beat them join them 😎

[stone drum]

Also btw, 50b does not have relatively fast traverse, it's actually quite slow, especially considering it's acceleration.

[void siren]

My main problem with autoloaders in tier X is that the alpha of mediums, lights, and tds haven't been scaled up as well

@acoustic estuary hp counts for a lot in blitz
also after the update it'll have better reverse than the 4005

[uneven turtle]

Y’all can’t get my point. I’m saying that amx 50 b is just fv 4005 but much more reliable.

Lower profile?? fv 4005??

Both guns have about the same accuracy. However due to the intraclip being wider, the amx is given more time to aim in, some cases it’s bad like point blank for example. But if u front lining and there’s ppl on opposite side it’s actually more accurate

@lost mesa also when did I say I camped in the amx cuh

[acoustic estuary]

4005 has better accuracy, better clip, better gun ovr / has same speed / can reduce HE dmg / and has a lower profile

The only thing the 50b wins is frontal armor. Lmao.

Yes lower profile.

[tepid quest]

Right! But still why remove reticle calibration!? It kind of needs it! But why reverse speed from 15 to 10 it's insane

[uneven turtle]

No tanks need super consumables. A point I debated with noobs that require it to compensate for lack of skill, albeit for short period

[acoustic estuary]

It was… a bit too easy to clip, click the consumables to unload faster and goggles and you clipped someone for +1200

[void siren]

I honestly want to see it go the way of the grille - 1600 clip tanks imo are obnoxious

they should've stayed at 1200~1350

[stuck acorn]

50b is much, much, much more reliable than 4005, there is no doubt about that.

aim time and gun handling which are far more important on autoloaders than gun dispersion are better on 50b and 50b gets more armor, more moblity, fully rotatable turret and much more HP as a bonus

Only things 4005 has better is clip damage, DPM and Intraclip by massive 0.2s (4005 has clip boost, but still). Everything else is better on 50b

[stone drum]

I love how you ignore the Fv4005 having Clip-booster which allows it to dump 1640 with only 1.8s inbetween shells. Even without such Fv dumps about 100 damage more with way higher penetration almost a full second faster.

[acoustic estuary]

FV has goggles and don’ say. Well it doesn’t have it in 10.3! Right now it has so 😁
Amx does have frontal armor, but then again, the little cheeks of hull are heable, and the rest he able. While 4005 get spall.

@uneven turtle are you still in bot mm?

@stuck acorn i wasn’ asking you. 😅

[uneven turtle]

I’m comparing auto loader capabilities

@stone drum and that’s why I said no tank needs super consumables

[void siren]

it has:
the same spot range as a ht
the clip to trade with hts
spall liner
camo to not be detected

the fv4005 can spot somewhat, but the main reason the players don't act like heavy tank players is because there's no armor at all - it isn't even troll there's just no armor

the 50b has a "upper plate" and mediocre armor, but its still he'able

[acoustic estuary]

Your playing with flames lad.

[stone drum]

The Issue is people try to clump all autoloaders into this single bloc, when they are much to diverse to really quantify their power as a whole. Tanks like T54e1 are about as far as you can get from broken and on the other hands you have tanks like Tvp.

[void siren]

one of the easiest ways to categorize tier X autoloaders is by clip size

and clip dump time

[granite pebble]

I like how a lot of people also seem to forget that 50b has 30mm of side armor and no spall liner to save it

[stone drum]

Mhm, well I can only hope WG doesn't destroy 50b, but I have trust in them. They have shown they understand AMX 50 and I trust they will make the best changes for it.

[void siren]

meanwhile the massive tracks

[granite pebble]

Doesnt stop the fact that literally everything overmatches it and theres still a large area to HE

[void siren]

Of course, but it does make it significantly less vulnerable to he

The sideskirts of the 4005 would be awesome if the turret wasn’t one giant he’able box

[unique scaffold]

Tournaments is the highest level (currently) possible in blitz and that’s why it might be used as a metric. If you don’t nerf these tanks I’ll abuse them and make people very upset to lose 20 games in a row, because MM put them on enemy team.

[willow hawk]

For your argument to work, the presumption that the tank used in comps is OP must be true. Which, in the STRV’s case, simply isn’t true. You have to look at the reason why it is being used in the tournament, and why it is a perfect choice for tournaments.

The Strv was used because it possessed medium tank firepower and had a heavy tank hp pool. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be used.

Any tank in the hands of unicum players can be “abused.” It’s just the matter of reason and purpose.

As @burnt venture said, players either have a negative or neutral view on the strv. Why? Is it really OP/broken because of its DPM? Or does it suck because it doesn’t have enough hull or turret armor?
Or is it balanced?

[unique scaffold]

I just think speedboost on it is the biggest broken factor. It opens so many early plays and allows you to escape from them. I also play with cooldown boosters so I usually have 3 of them every game. If I read from enemy lineup on winter mali I can gamble and go to the hulldown on med side in 20s with 2 strvs and shotout the cross to the windmill. Usually one dude will get permatracked and die before 1min of the game passed. And that’s one of so many examples of cool things you can do with Strv.

Loading screen has to be my favourite part of playing strv.

[sweet skiff]

wdym? chinese tanks are really good

[little fractal]

Nein, WZ 110 it's worst one

[clear shuttle]

is-2 is worse

[sweet skiff]

wz 110 is really nice. the pike nose is actually reliable compared to most other piked nose tanks and the 100mm is very versatile in situations. the gun depression of the line’s also quite workable since most of them are just 6 degrees.

outside of the chinese heavies, the 121 line is incredibly strong with their derp guns and armor. the 113g ft’s line is also really strong.

even their premium tanks are really good. type 62, m41d, wz 120 1g ft, 5a and 121b are really good tanks

[clear shuttle]

121B is more than a “chinese t-62a”

[main tulip]

121b is more just an extremely mid tank that WG tried to slap super consumables on like a band-aid

[nimble zodiac]

Band-aid is the primary balancing tactic

[clear shuttle]

i love receiving reactive armour and vertical stabs on the vk 90 😍

[twin egret]

tvp upper plate needs a nerf for how dumb the ricochet angle is. it's almost as if WG screwed up some value on its armour that allows it to bounce at greater angles

[storm spoke]

bandaid made of tungsten

[stuck acorn]

Tbh they should make lower plate and ufp shoulders HEable and ufp overmathcable. This tank is already extremely fast and has great gun. It shouldn't have any armor to begin with

Also nerf that absolutely disgusting gun mantlet

@nimble zodiac It's not about this tank being hard to pen, it's about it bouncing anything to begin with. It is same story as T100, Sheri, BC, Obj 84 and any other "paper" tank that has some garbage highly angled plates that tend to troll you for literally 0 reason

[nimble zodiac]

Doubt it. It can certainly throw off some shells if it angles pretty sideways, but it shouldn't be too difficult to penetrate.

Hulldown, I would avoid it, and hit the turret instead

@stuck acorn I'd consider nerfing anything but the armor. Especially because it's already feeble for a medium tank's armor. It definitely isn't the problem, and nerfing it would be another band-aid for WG to put on the tank and call it fine.

[stuck acorn]

I don't mean that gun doesn't need a nerf. It most certainly does, i just think that armor is too strong for what it is as well.

Armor on this thing was well balanced during test, but they buffed it before release for some unknown reason to me

[final warren]

What's wrong with a mid tank? Isn't having a balanced tank a good thing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding mid

[twin egret]

I'm surprised they'd call the Grille a toxic tank yet not touch on the tvp

[main tulip]

It's mid for a medium, which is an underpowered class, therefore weak in the grand scheme of things

[willow hawk]

That thing has even thicker armor than a 62A. The weakspots are easier to shoot at though, because of the taller turret profile.
62A’s turret is flatter like a pancake, so it’s harder to hit.

[gleaming apex]

falconlunar#0 has been warned.

startrekdoc#0 has been warned.

startrekdoc#0 was muted.

epictart1141#0 has been warned.

sitron_24#0 has been warned.

[lean siren]

WT auf Pz IV :

• Remove spoon liner
• give the tank more mobility (better power-horse ratio AND more speed to back up)

All teams did use the StrvK, and also that new Obj777. But RN has always taken in consideration the number of team’s HPs: they have played only 1 game without those AMX M4 54s. Having two of them in the team provided them at least 500-600 more HPs maybe more..

[gleaming apex]

Mommy#3962 has been warned.

[drowsy plaza]

Stick to actual balance discussions

[winged barn]

Noooooo we need noobproof tanks that get nerfed in places that make it fun

[granite pebble]

That's because the European tanks haven't been touched yet. The European tanks will be the last tanks that get changed.

[glad cove]

Paper tanks having armor isn't necessarily a thing it's simply the
Angles of their armor and besides the tracks will always be a thing that can be bounced (tanks with no armor or gun would.need compensated with mobility and camo)

Also gun mantlets are supposed to be that one place on the tank that you can bounced (despite being able to pen the m v yoh through the gun)

[unique scaffold]

Grille needs a buff...

[indigo tinsel]

Does anyone else think that they really should have buffed the terrible reverse speed as well

[gleaming apex]

__blueberry#0 has been warned.

[lament kettle]

?

[burnt venture]

The entire point of this change:

• Your a whopping 2 kph faster and have better power to weight while retaining superconsumables
• Since this is a speed buff, your awful .15 OTM values compound your bloom while moving to ensure you hit even less shots unless you're almost stationary
• If you're stationary you get penned by everything because you have no armor
• Have fun using HESH while moving
• Have no reverse speed so if any kind of aggressive play fails then you die instantly due to no armor
• Rear turret layout which makes the tank unsuitable for most regular positions in the first place

The 215B will have an awkward layout combined with no armor and mobility which is basically completely reliant on improved engine boost, and then because they aren't buffing OTM values for the gun the gun will misbehave even more than it does now. And then of course it still will have 12 kph reverse so you can't get out of bad positions, and then add on top of that how often the tank gets tracked and set on fire, and also already eats a ton of HE splash damage to begin with.

215B went from a high DPM medium tank hunting brawler into an armorless, rear turreted heavy tank that isn't mobile enough without consumables due to terrible top speeds and a gun which can't really shoot OTM. It's like the definition of "awkward to play, with little reward."

TBH if I want a medium brawler with DPM and HESH, just go play Badger next update lmao

215B on NA will just be doomed to 1200XP ace bar hell for another 6 months.

[indigo tinsel]

I can tell you used to really like the FV215b 💀
How do you know it’s only a 1 kmh speed buff

[burnt venture]

#tank-balance-discussion message

It's a buff from 34 to 36, and then like 1 horsepower to weight.

It's basically the same stupidity as what they did to Prog 65 last rework, where they nuked the gun for like a slight power to weight buff.

[indigo tinsel]

After scrolling up and reading, yeah it’s fair to say everyone is mad at almost every balance change for 10.3…
Wargaming you can’t take tier 10 tank rebalances lightly, you need to TEST THEM. Not only that but you should be trying to make balance changes as little as possible, because in order to master top tier you need to memorize tank performance but that’s impossible to do if you keep changing things. Stop making pointless changes and change the tanks that actually need it.
You were headed in the right direction with buffing the FV215b’s speed but you didn’t even touch the reverse speed and you nerfed the armour even though it was already terrible.

I suppose WG sort of is testing these changes by letting us know about them so early so that they can get feedback. But time will tell if they actually go through with the changes.

[glad cove]

Nothing changes the fact that the upper plate is simply troll and doesn't need a nerf
It's like the progetto 65 in a sense

[teal crystal]

Ok, dropping this rn,
Expected balance changes overall

French tree destroyed, dispersion increase because they want to force clippers to frontline more

Chinese tree overall buffs in dispersion for mid range + gun aimtime buffs

[weak ledge]

FV215b should get PBR graphic

[pale oyster]

Can the next update receive an option to swap the previous 3 shot and 4 shot gun for 50b? Like players complain a lot about the 1500 clip potential of the 50b but the 3 shot would be less and therefore annoy players less. Both would have their advantages like more damage trading gun handling and less damage for better gun handling.

[dense prairie]

ples wargaming dont nerf the bc25t

[teal crystal]

most likely will, shell change again, a slight pen and dispersion nerf, then they'll allow it to intraclip like TVP is what I expect, spall will probably be removed because 183 got HESH nerfed

[final wagon]

the e-100 is just a slightly better kv-2 with way more armo(u)r after the "nerf"

[stuck brook]

🤔

[stone drum]

?

[acoustic estuary]

The amx 120 and amx 100 had poor accuracy playing them. Plz don’t. Give them 4005’s goggles.

[clear shuttle]

please adapt to these tanks changes

[nocturne mauve]

What’s the point of HE when nearly every paper tank has spall liner

[acoustic estuary]

If you can’t pen you can splash under the tank. Main uses for me

[teal crystal]

Splash damages modules and kills crew more than AP, forcing the enemy player that gets hit by it to force a repair kit or two

[nocturne mauve]

And do what? 50 damage?

[acoustic estuary]

For what? If you splsh under the tank you can do alot. Splash depends the caliber, and where you hit.

[stuck acorn]

Using HE just to disable modeules is useless. Module destroying is just a nice bonus to overall uses you have for HE. You can do some damage with HE by splashing under the tank or hitting it's roof, but it still usually won't be even a half of what you'd do with AP pen on lower caliber guns and maybe around 60-70% of what you'd do with AP on higher caliber guns.

Not worth at all unless you have a specific reason to do so

If you can shoot under the enemy tank, you most likely can also hit it's lower plate with A which renders this whole solution worthless.

HE splash is a viable solution only if you have no other way to deal damage to enemy or when you want to assure finishing off very low HP target

[orchid grove]

I use HE to break people’s tracks. It’s more reliable than straight AP for lower caliber guns. It’s also nice just for HE splash spam

[stuck acorn]

Well, if your intention from the start is destroying track without damage, then it makes sense. But i rarely do that so i didn't mention that.

When it comes to being fun for spam, yes it is fun, but it's not something you'd do if you wanted to achieve good results, it's just for trolling

[willow hawk]

Players leave / refuse to play your game. Please adapt

[glad cove]

I wish there was a consumable or equipment slot that could be run to increase module damage (like the crew skill on pc)

[willow hawk]

I hope WG understands that a specific parameter (such as armor) is more meaningful—carries more weight—for a specific tank when compared to others.
You cannot simply nerf something and buff another parameter, and call that rebalancing.

For an IS4, armor is more meaningful for its gameplay. For another tank, such as the AMX50B, armor is less meaningful, because it has an auto loading gun and speed to quickly get away. An IS4 heavily depends on strong armor, and a decent 122mm gun to do its job. Improving the mobility parameters slightly and completely destroying the IS4’s dependence on armor is a net nerf; it is not a rebalance. Again, why? Because armor is more meaningful to the IS4 gameplay.

Now here is WG’s argument: They want to re-purpose each tank, to promote a different gameplay. That is reckless, arbitrary, and in the most polite way: nonsensical.
By allowing these balance changes, it will imply that WG is warranted to make the most ridiculous of “rebalancing.” I can provide an extreme example: buffing grille armor slightly, and nerfing its gun to oblivion.

[marsh belfry]

Adrenaline increases module dmg

[glad cove]

I'm such a bozo

[willow hawk]

This is not the place to ping players randomly. And please stop sending friend requests to me. This is tank balance discussion.

[brittle reef]

Among us

[mighty dock]

Sus

[teal crystal]

ping me if I got this right when #coming-soon updates

[slender latch]

They nerfed the damage of the vickers light to like -50 for the AP and HE which kinda sucks at this point I think they "rebalance" tanks just for the sake of rebalancing or diversity lol

[granite pebble]

The gun also gained almost no DPM for that alpha and armor loss, not even accuracy, mobility, nothing.

So the tank is essentially destroyed

[slender latch]

I do hope the stats they posted is not final it was just to see if people like them I mean look at the Grille's like/dislike ratio

[granite pebble]

I'm pretty sure they intend on doing some changes, because some of these are pretty damn awful.

[harsh ravine]

Im really curious on what they’re gonna do to the 30B

[quartz snow]

Since they completely annihilated the Vickers Light and FV215b, only God knows what the heck will they do next

[normal wadi]

Vickers' vision isn't as good as his previous level... vickers cruiser has a full 10m higher vision......

[nimble zodiac]

Don't worry!

They'll come for Vickers Cruiser next 😊

[scenic olive]

Have mercy on the 50b wg pls🙏

[safe atlas]

Absolutely that ☝️

[stable cairn]

I'm expecting +50 m/s shellvelocity on the AP and +1 km/h top speed

[small vale]

imagine if they do the same things they last year did

[marsh belfry]

That makes me wonder, is wg also going to nerf vick cr alpha with the vl alpha nerf?

[small vale]

guess they have the same gun, so it may also effect the Vickers cr

[quartz snow]

and engine power loses 300 hp so its now called a 'rebalance'

[quartz snow]

I doubt, they may do what theyve done to the E3 and E4.

But that means the Vickers Cruiser is going to be objectively better than the Vickers Light, so thats gonna be awkward. If not, then itll both be trash

[main grotto]

is the 30b getting a nerf? but seriously I wonder what will happen to the chinese lights, if anything

[signal plover]

The vickers cruiser was always better at playing against other tier 9s than the vickers light was at playing against other tier 10s. So technically the vickers cruiser will just be completely better than its tier 10 counterpart.

[quartz snow]

i dont play neither of those tanks anymore, so i dont know how strong they are currently since theyre not very popular tanks or annoying tanks to deal with (personally).

[signal plover]

That’s true because I think they both got a nerf a while back (especially the vickers cruiser which was op in the right hands). Now you don’t even see them that often in game but I’d still say that the vickers cruiser is a good tank to play.

[quartz snow]

dpm nerf from 2900 to 2000

[upbeat depot]

Ну пля

[wooden lynx]

WG have mercy on my boi BC don't butcher it like the other lights

[glad cove]

Nah they won't, it's already the hardest light to play in terms of required skill

[long light]

I would say that grille is also the hardest TD to play correctly but they still tend to nerf it to the ground though

And its a rebalance coming from wargaming so everything could happen

[fathom glacier]

Today or tomorrow French and Chinese X‘s changes?

[quartz snow]

you dont know, they might dumb it down so much that its OP like what they did to the TVP

[drowsy plaza]

Grille really isn’t that bad now, and the mobility buffs will really help it to play a second/third line Med support role on some maps. I just wish it was a tad shorter. It can get clobbered some places where it can’t get fully under cover using terrain

[final warren]

I wouldn't say the Vickers is annihilated, but it is a nerf for sure

[long light]

I like the changes for it besides alpha nerf, but it is still a nerf to its firing capabilities than it used to be before, the mobility was a factor that needed a rebalance honestly but alpha wasnt one of them imo

Removing a single provision could be way more efficient than nerfing/buffing some stats out of nothing again

I respect that some people are just letting the rebalances go through since we cant do much about it, but it really gets me mad that they do whatever they want without listening a single word from this channel from people that actually want relevant changes, including us all

[drowsy plaza]

The problem with taking community feedback is the vast majority of the player base is atrocious. Not understanding game mechanics or tank characteristics.

[long light]

I like the proposal from people like Synx or purplet, that doggo meme guy and some other people, they actually give changes that could give us a better vibe not only for better players but also for everyone in general, sadly those proposal just gets flooded by random questions or offtopic messages

I actually get attached to this channel when they discuss lol

[remote sluice]

they better not nerf my foch 155

[wooden lynx]

I actually like the changes on the Grille, getting more mobility giving it the ability to reposition quicker.

But imo I think it should've just gotten better camo...

I think the current mobility is already decent.

[unique scaffold]

When do the French nerfs drop? It’s supposed to be today right?

[twin egret]

Tonight basically, yeah

[unique scaffold]

Oh ok, normally it’s been in the mornings for my time zone around this time, because I can wake up and see the discord on fire 🤣🤣

[remote sluice]

i can already smell a foch 155 alpha nerf 💀

[unique scaffold]

For what? They can’t even justify it, it’s already the only 155mm that is at 500alpha, the is7 is at 460, VZ55 is at 490 and that’s with a 130mm this is ridiculous

[remote sluice]

dont worry abt it im just joking bcus some of the changes they announced recently are so weird.

but id love a foch alpha buff bcus a 155mm doing 500dmg is just sad

vz.55 does 470 btw, mino does 490 w a 130mm

[uneven turtle]

Grille with a 150 doing 640 in the past COUGH compared to sheri with 152 560 COUGH COUGH but grille is a td so it needs that alpha. And yeah Foch 155 is the saddest. 155 and only 500

[keen wedge]

Yes

[unique scaffold]

It should be at 640 ap, 960 He, same as every other 155 minus grille, we used to have consistency with guns now they are all plus 20 minus 20, Sheri can be chalked up to it by a light short barrel which irl meant smaller shell velocities, ie less speed, less pen, less damage

[remote sluice]

tbh im actually fine w sheridan’s 560 alpha. i dont think u want a light tank running at 65km/h hitting u for full 152mm damage every like 16s

[uneven turtle]

Duh that I agree it’s just saying that weegee can’t balance their caliber damage well.