tank-balance-discussion

[stone drum]

Unsurprisingly. If it had a doublé shot autoloader it would be the most stupid, toxic tank in blitz history.

[stuck acorn]

i mean it had something like 11s of aim time so it was just ridiculously horrific

[stone drum]

...
That's awful.
Still though, if you got right up to someone's side, you could basically delete them.

[final warren]

You're confusing me a bit because you are confirming what I said, but also saying that it isn't true.

"They were turned into meds by WG on purpose"

Which is the same thing as what I said. They are specialized meds by design (tier X, and a lot of other ones as well), because WG designed them that way. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but we are both agreeing that they are specialized mediums, yet you are saying that it isn't true?

I'm not talking about old light tanks, I'm talking about current light tanks. Tbh old light tanks weren't really true light tanks either when compared to PC. View range and camo mean so much less in Blitz than in PC, even since the start

[twin egret]

outranked by tech tree canearvon

[gilded terrace]

[burnt venture]

Nah, it's a different tank.

Action X is overall still more mobile and has better armor than the Caern. It can sidescrape and hulldown much better than the Caern, and moves much better (outside of the speed boost)

The Caern is more of a 1v1 tank cuz it doesn't really have the armor that Action X does, nor does it have the gun handling anymore. Action X is definitely more well rounded as a normal heavy tank

[gilded sparrow]

What do y’all think of the the Jpanther II

[timid blade]

IMO it needs a small hull armor nerf.

104 mm to 100 mm on the front glacis plate
62 mm to 60 mm on the hull sides (probably the casement sides too)
42 mm to 40 mm on the hull rear (probably should include the casement rear too)

[gilded sparrow]

i think it needs a buff 104 is like nothing. nd the 62mm sides can be HE'd lol

[main tulip]

those nerfs are literally meaningless lol, you just want to make the numbers cleaner

[unique scaffold]

what is your opinion on the obj 452k

[timid blade]

I mean those numbers are accurate, whether you disagree with it or not.

There's a video about the history and numbers of the Panther and its variants. That's where I got my info from, alongside Tank Encyclopedia. I'll send you the YouTube video link via your DMs since I doubt I can send it here without the bot getting involved, if you're interested.

[compact nymph]

Since when do balance changes aim to reach a tank’s historical stats at the detriment of balance, as you are suggesting here to nerf a tank that arguably doesn’t need it for the sake of history (on a paper vehicle anyway)?

[main tulip]

yeah so we should nerf tiger frontal armor to 100mm now?

[ornate warren]

Mate imagine IS7 having autoloader like its historical version ☠️

@scenic kindle ?

@timid blade history is on second or maybe even in third line in terms of priority on the game design, especially since this game is an arcade game.

[scenic kindle]

what

[compact nymph]

To me the summary of this matter seems to be ‘’go play WT lol’’
Or should we also make the IS-4’s only gun option its historical D-25T 122mm with that ludicrous 175mm of penetration at T10?

[timid blade]

*102 mm

[main tulip]

every source I found says 100mm. And you're disregarding the point, which is that historical accuracy cannot come at the expense of game balance.

[burnt venture]

What even happened to the special IS-7 from update 8.6 lol

Are they still going to make that available or is that just canceled

[main tulip]

No idea, I feel like the tier 9 bat chat might've suffered the same fate

[ebon lynx]

Reduced to mere seconds of a video long ago.
At this point, I think they archived the idea

[stuck acorn]

This is not WoT PC, it's obvious lights will never work the same way here as spotters are essentially useless. But it doesn't mean they need to be same thing as meds.

Original light tank design for blitz was a tank with medium-like gun that traded off all of it's armor for much better mobility. And it was fine. They worked really well. But in the middle of everything WG changed their mind for absolutely no reason and streamlined them into basic meds. That's what i'm refering to.

That sentence about not only T10 lights being specialized meds is complete false though. Only T10 and T9 lights are specialized mediums. I can't think of even single lower tier light that was turned into such a joke. Other than FV 301 maybe, but it's still arguable

[twin egret]

He could be referring to hardness(?) I'm assuming? A plate could have a thickness of 100mm for example, but it's effectiveness when hit directly flat could be like that of a 150mm plate because of how the plate of armour's construction/material

[final warren]

The bulldog, type 62, Russian lights, Chinese lights, lekpz, ru251.

Pretty much all Blitz light tanks get most of their exp from damage, not spotting. That is why I say that they are specialized mediums.

See, we have different definitions of what a light tank is so we aren't going to agree. To me, your definition for a Blitz light tank is a specialized medium.

To me, a true light tank is a tank that gets most of its exp from spotting

[burnt venture]

High tier Lts have too much armor and not enough mobility.

Which is also why WG must make LT gimmicks literally ignore basic mechanics in order to set them apart from mediums

[stuck acorn]

The fact that the tank gets majority of it's exp from damage doesn't make it medium. Especially in blitz. As i wrote in previous message lights in blitz work differently than in WoT PC. Lights in Blitz were never meant to spot, so saying that they aren't lights just because they aren't spotting is just dumb.

Original lights in blitz traded off their spotting ability for DPM allowing them to deal damage, but it didn't make them mediums, as they were still very different. They had very paper armor, usually HEable frontally, but were much, much faster. Russian lights were only exception as they had weaker guns, but had a bit of troll armor and still were much faster than any medium tank out there.

Take a look at RU 251 and then try to compare it to something like pershing or centurion 1. Not even comparable, right?

Then take a look at current high tier lights like for example Vickkers Light or Vickers CR. They are only slightly faster than meds and when you compare it to leo 1 which is the fastest med, their speed is actually the same. Their armor is basically just as good as weakly armored meds and their guns aren't anything special either.

Take a look at previously mentioned vickers and try to compare it to Leo 1, 121b or basically any other 350 alpha med. Suddenly it isn't as hard anymore, right?

Not even a single tank out all of those you mentioned is even close to being a med. These tanks are true blitz lights. Unlike the high tier ones

@final warren if a spotting tank is a definition of your blitz light, then good luck trying to find even a single light in the game. Not even that... Try to design a so called by you "light" and fit it into the game without making it either broken or useless. It is borderline impossible as blitz doesn't have suitable environment for such a tank to exist. Your definition of light is completly unreasonable

[final warren]

I don't think you read what I said, so I'll just repeat myself

See, we have different definitions of what a light tank is so we aren't going to agree. To me, your definition for a light tank is the definition of a specialized medium.

To me, a true light tank is a tank that gets most of its exp from spotting.

Therefore making most blitz light tanks only light tanks in name, and in practice specialized mediums.

@stuck acorn Exactly! There can and will never be a true light tank in Blitz, because of how the game treats view range/camo/spotting mechanics. My definition of light tank is not unreasonable, it is what I would like/think a light tank should be. In order for that to happen, we would need to overhaul the view range/camo/etc of the game. Which I also think needs done

[chilly crane]

📠

[rough sandal]

even bacause Maps are poorly designed for normal tanks

[final warren]

Another good point. A lot of maps are designed for medium or heavy tanks. Plus they are small, although lagoon is a good size.

[rough sandal]

designed for Hull down heavy tanks*

[quick fiber]

Gravedigger became a trash tank , not good in penetration... can't even see a spot to shoot on tier 8 heavy tanks , when they show their front...full red , no use of HE shells , doesn't do any damage at all ..very bad disappointment right now.. new tanks are being added...and gravedigger losing power. It used to dig other's grave now it digs it's own grave ,poor penetration

Dear devs , please increase gravedigger penetration power... 🫠🫠

[queen geyser]

Prem amo? Its 241 APCR no way he cant pen that, out of that angle, the lower plate should be 220 mm max

Idc about the theory crafting we doing rn, I bet this guy didnt even try prem ammo, still types tho

[rough sandal]

it's right that Gravedigger needs a bit of buff, but remember that against tier 6s that tank is very, very strong, and even tho AP have bad pen, APCR has a good one(for being a tier 7 ofc), and gravedigger is reasonably fast with very good camo for an tier 7 75 tons(By the way the original designer of the Gravedigger wanted to mount it an 120mm, probably they should bring that gun in the game), @queen geyser like that he can't pen it with prammo, i know, but the APCR doesn't pen good the angled armor, and the wz one can be pretty troll

[stuck acorn]

just load gold

@queen geyser it does considering you have 5k rating or more

[real bison]

1: read the pins
2: skill based MM only exists in ratings mode
3: stop crying

[queen geyser]

I dont even think that skill based mm exists in ratings mode

[ancient rampart]

Premium ammo is more than enough to pen

[jade cargo]

Kaski#9639 was muted.

Michaelcurts#7387 has been warned.

[burnt venture]

TVP is a fair and balanced tank which doesn't give you any advantages whatsoever

[drowsy plaza]

@quick fiber as a low tier tank, you can’t expect to fight a higher tier heavy frontally. That’s not a balance issue that’s a player positioning issue.

[quick fiber]

Sir ,i even tried by standing face to face with heavy tank ,and looked at the bottom, I'm not saying it isn't balanced , it's kinda hard to penetrate such tanks , it looks completely red , I even used premium shells. But it didn't showed any difference, infact damage decreased too , mostly premium tier 8 heavy tanks hard to penetrate for especially Vk tank , I tried it in training room with help of my friend , it was completely red even tho I was standing face to face.

[ancient rampart]

Don't go face to face against tier 8 tanks when you're in a tier 7
You have 230-242 premium pen in the Gravedigger
That's more than enough to deal with tier 8 heavies

[wary dune]

huh. M6A2E1 EXP has 260 AP pen with calibrated shells

[ancient rampart]

okay?

[thorny timber]

<@&481447501690568709> someone is trying to speedrun banning

[granite pebble]

This really is such a skill issue tbh

[jade cargo]

Albaniaboi#6604 was banned.

[stone drum]

How can the numbers on a completely fictional tank be accurate...
:eyes

@compact nymph another hilariously awful arguement, as warthunder is.

1. Full of inaccuracies
2. Not a mobile game
3. Has an infinitely worse grind
4. Doesn't have a third of the vehicles in wot.
5. Provides generally inferior quality of gameplay.
   telling somebody to "just play warthunder" because they care about "historical accuracy" stands as the single worst arguement I have ever seen.

[acoustic estuary]

War thunder coming on mobile. Right now it’s on samsung tho. But the others are true.

[dark galleon]

Buff 907 turret armor

What do you think ? War Thunder edge can replace blitz ?

[acoustic estuary]

And @timid blade since you like realism so much how about a 35km/h top speed E100? Or maybe high tier tanks having pens up 300 with standart? Heavies would be totally useless? Now do you see why wg balances tanks like this. To not be op for their tier?

[buoyant adder]

Buff IS7.

[ornate warren]

no.

[tame temple]

Imo 907 being a mix between the T62A and OBJ140 makes it fine

And also WT edge won't, a fairly new game wont replace a big 9 years old game that is still growing to this day.

[acoustic estuary]

And i doubt wot mobile will be on ios.

[tame temple]

Don't think there will be a third version of WoT, a version for long gaming sessions only exists on PC and the mobile version is summed up by its name, blitz and it's accessible through many devices, so there's no need for an extra spin off.

[acoustic estuary]

Well it wt mobile already working so

[ancient rampart]

There already is a third version of WoT
WoT console is it’s own version

[viscid spire]

Cent RAAC vs Action X?

[timid blade]

Action X

No doubt

[nimble zodiac]

RAAC is definitely the pick as a medium though

[tame temple]

Ah console, thanks for reminding me.

[thorny timber]

More like nerf the broken heavy meta

Every t10 American heavy except the e5 are a part of this meta,including concept and e6

[buoyant adder]

or only nerf american heavys

[merry pelican]

buff foch 155 gun traverse range to 10

[rough sandal]

actually War thunder is coming on mobile

[final warren]

The 907 is already one of the strongest mediums. It doesn't need a buff. The turret is already a hard pen anyways

[stone drum]

If you happen to have 16gb of ram it is... lol.

@acoustic estuary E-100 would have 20-25kph top speed at best.

@thorny timber e5 is at the forefront of the meta with T95e6 & T57. Concept 1b is just "ok" tbh.

[analog basin]

USA tanks now so OP. Soviet tanks are crying in the corner but who care ?

[ancient rampart]

Just gonna ignore the IS-4 being one of the best heavies atm?

[main tulip]

it really isn't. Certainly inferior meta-wise to both the E5 and the T57

It also got powercrept pretty hard by the Object 777 tbh

[stone drum]

Yes, Superpershing, t69, and m103 are absolutely game-breaking.
Seriously though, their Tier Xs are very strong at the moment.

[main tulip]

idk if you meant to list the worst American tanks, but T69 is actually quite good

[thorny timber]

E5 is just alright a little bit too much of an alright tank,i can agree with it being with the e6 but t57 is just a whole new level of inconvenience because of the troll Armor where all the shells magnet to the tiniest red lines and being a typical autoloader,concept 1b might actually also be on the same lane with e5 but has the profile advantage where the ammo rack isn't so easy to crit

[main tulip]

E5 is literally being used in comp. It's strong. Boring, but strong.

[thorny timber]

Sadly,at least it's wasn't made unplayable

[chilly token]

m103 needs an overdue buff on the turret

[stone drum]

Their is a reason e5 is comp meta.
I don't know why people get dogging on it like it's this awful tank.

[ancient rampart]

as someone who is currently grinding the M103 I agree with the turret buff

[burnt venture]

Whoever buffed the T30 mobility was actually on crack

Lmao this thing has better power to weight on hard ground than a 113

[thorny timber]

Still,doesn't change the fact that anywhere else the tank is just bland.

[queen geyser]

how tho ?

[twin egret]

A lot of tanks are like that, or have some variation like that

The grave digger has better camo value standing still than an amx on blitzstars comparison but it doesn't (22% vs 20%)

[dark galleon]

Only ping in increasing every day lol. Btw I sold 907 to buy 752 and it was worth.

[tame temple]

One of the best if not the best tier 9 at the moment, I wouldn't gamble in crates to get it though, if you got it in a direct purchase then enjoy.

[dark galleon]

It's best tier 9 , what you are talking about ? It's really a solid tank with good armor profile and 430×2 shots. It can suck approx 900 health from enemy tanks.

[tame temple]

Dude that's literally what I just said
one of the best if not the best tier 9 at the moment
and you needn't tell me about it's characteristics because I already know it.

[acoustic estuary]

They estimated the speed with the maybach 1200hp engine to 35km/h tho. Can’t say it was realistic but it is what it is.

[hushed crown]

I have 8, and on medium settings it sits at 90 comfortably

[stone drum]

That's complète garbage, 1200hp my derrière. Those same people when working with the most advanced maybach engine, with unlimited resources, and so war/wartime bombings couldn't even make the engine produce 1000 hp reliably in 15 years. With the wartime shortages and issues, I doubt even 850 (the amount of power they had to limit the engine too) could have have achieved.

[acoustic estuary]

I know but the maybac with 1200hp was an ongoing project called Nova something like that

[main tulip]

What we're trying to say is that the 1200 hp engine was unrealistic, so therefore the attached 35kph claim is also unrealistic.

[acoustic estuary]

It was not unrealistic, it was just not existing, but it was estimated to go 35km/h. I do agree that that speed is unbelievable so. Yea. The engine itself being unrealistic tho is pretty false. Even if yes during the war it was unrealistic the engine is realistic. So if what you are saying is that the top speed is false i am agreeing and if your saying that the engine is unrealistic for the war i agree.

[stone drum]

Yes the engine is real, but later engineering, tests, and improvements proved 1200 horsepower was all but impossible.

[acoustic estuary]

Ah yes, when using the super charging capability it was unstable as i heard. So yea. Limiting the power once again

[burnt venture]

Kranvagn weighing only 44 tons, yet going 30kph top speed with the traverse of a superheavy:

I didn’t know they did LS swaps for tanks, it only has 600 HP in blitz while the PC version has 35% more horsepower 🗿

[patent helm]

speed does not always correlate to hp and weight but is also a matter of gearing. Without knowing the gearing rations one can only make an educated guess, but 35 kph would be possible with both 800 and 1200hp, it would just take a different amount of time. 1200 with direct fuel injection and forced induction seem plausible to me aswell.

[stone drum]

kinda dumb, especially considering the smaller emils are like 20 tons and have basically a lawnmower engine.

@patent helm Emil could have definitely reached speeds in excess of 50kph and possibly even 60kph.

[patent helm]

agree

[stone drum]

It would be nice to see the maus get a turret turning dispersion factor buff, to facilitate it constantly angling it's turret when it goes to shoot. I think like .05-.06 (without V-stabs) would be really nice and benefit the tank, without making it overtly toxic, op, or hard to fight against.

[final warren]

The maus has .08 which is the best for heavy tanks I think. Buffing it could be nice, but I'd rather the maus just get an armor buff. That would fit its play style better

[stone drum]

the armour is largely fine, we don't need more penetration creep.

.08 while good isn't the best for heavies (and is extremely common at tier X). Their are a few heavies with better turret turning factors.

@final warren What armour would you buff?
Also an overall heavy armour + hp nerf would be a very questionable balance choice.

[final warren]

I hear what you mean about penetration creep, but I wouldn't mind the maus getting an armor buff since that's its entire thing. I feel bad when I can just use prammo and easily pen a maus. Other heavies just need an armor + HP nerf.

Buffing the rotation would be a viable solution until that happens tho

[nimble zodiac]

I feel bad when the shell specifically designed to penetrate armor is able to penetrate armor

[sharp forge]

The SP1C really need a buff or something to make it at least Fun to play ,.
That tank is so fragile without having any advantages even 75mm gun can slap HE to it
It's been more than a years that little tank never get any attention from WG

[granite pebble]

I cant wait for WG to never nerf the Sheridan because of all the room temp IQ players playing it

Literally has no excuse to have any kind of decent gun handling or survivability, yet here we are, having literally everything.

[chilly token]

Agree, make the sheridan HEAT round be its standard round but with 200 penetration, no APDS, buff HE to 780 like t49. Make it play like a t49 and actually have to be sneaky instead of it being like a mobile TD now with its high pen HEAT which can just butter all but the heavy tank’s armor.

[burnt venture]

Sheridan and T92 are just T49s for people who don't have the hands to play T49

[whole nebula]

I really dont think the new euro hts got enough armour…

[uneven turtle]

Add flippable tanks to the gameee would be fun to see it as a mode to see if it would be balanced first

[nimble zodiac]

I found it really fun :p
I mean, if they made the two-shot super snappy it would be pretty good

[real bison]

eurghh armour reliance

you shoot twice, retreat, come back in
really potent 2-shot gun too, and to use the SP 1C well is a mark of skill

[humble depot]

I’m gonna be honest here: Get good. The SP is one of my favourite tanks for a reason.

[final warren]

I do fine in them

[main tulip]

SP1C needs some buff to its gun to counteract how terrible the shell velocity is, and maybe a bit of a top speed buff as well

[ancient rampart]

I’ve enjoyed the SP1C greatly and had no issues with it
It doesn’t need anything

[main tulip]

You might've enjoyed it, but that doesn't change that it is objectively quite poor statistically

[ancient rampart]

160mms of pen
450 burst damage effectively out DPMing tier 8 120mms
Highest view range of tier 7 lights
Sure the velocity is low but low velocity is rarely an issue on a light tank if it’s that bad then run super charger
10 degrees of gun depression

The SP1C is fine how it is

[leaden flare]

the shell velocity is a massive issue on the he making it quite unusable

[shrewd remnant]

The whole SP1C line is hard to play. They’re meant for good players who know how to use their guns without getting smacked. Although I do think the SP1C could use a shell velocity buff, the line is not meant for new or unskilled players. Leo PTA is the only one needing an actual buff.

[nimble zodiac]

Perhaps if it had more penetration on its HE shells, it would compensate for the low velocity. You should only be firing HE at close ranges, so shell velocity shouldn't be a major issue.

[ancient rampart]

the PT A got a pretty substanial buff recently and it plays fairly well now

[queen geyser]

Leo pta is rly playable, it dosnt need more buffs

[stone drum]

Sheridan is honestly fine, it's toxic but that's it.

Even a 30b can yolo and kill it lol.

How they should change the model to be the actual sheridan instead of this weird pilot 1 crap.

[stone drum]

You want a KPZ 70 buff... but oppose a SP1C buff...

[ancient rampart]

SP1C doesn't need any buffs
KPZ 70 is powercrept

[silk root]

give SP1C the hep shells the RU has
then it'd be hilarious

[autumn zodiac]

kpz is not powercrept

[whole nebula]

Kpz is a good tank, need more like it lol good looking, modernish i dont mind waiting on the reload, but it has never been a reliable push tank but its alot better than the british hts or maybe the american, bit more agile than the Emil 2 its just somewhere in the middle again

[shrewd remnant]

Still it’s the weakest of the line tier for tier

[ancient rampart]

It's still good

[whole nebula]

Just waiting for “good players have no issue” or “skill issue” lol i wouldnt play it by choice. Theres a few in that pile though including the m46 patton but yet the sta 1 is ok.
I still think my new euro hts are bad for team dependability. Im not scared of facing them.

[shrewd remnant]

To a good player. I’m just saying it’s not as strong as I think it should be, in perspective of the strength of the tanks below it in their tiers and on the tanks it has to fight (tier 10s especially). 🙂

[shadow elbow]

what should i get first

[stuck acorn]

i don't think it's a good channel for such a question, but you should go for the gun

[sharp forge]

Bruh the balance tank doesnt view as how good you playing it., It view objectively comparing the other Light tank at its tier ., Even a tier 6 can easily out DPM and manuever SP1C not to mention the gun handling and low velocity shell.,

[shrewd remnant]

In almost every case get the gun and turret first and grind the rest if you don’t have enough Free XP

[shadow elbow]

ok i bought the gun already with the free xp i have

[queen geyser]

I think that its just hard to play and that maybe not everybody is expirenced enough to play it to its fully potential

[main tulip]

I performed well in it and I perform well in other poorly armored, fast tanks. The SP1c is just not good, statistically.

[granite pebble]

The thing is, is that the line starts with the T49, which is a very heavy risk/reward esc tank.

Then you get into the T92 which you get troll bounces and have an insanely compact tank while having better gun handling than the Sheridan but worse DPM but at least being able to be HE'd from the side and rear, albeit still very much less risk/reward esc.

Then you get into the Sheridan which is just.... an incredibly risk free tank with an extremely troll hull that is also entirely spaced armor so it always outrades everything except TD's and 150mm heavies. Quite honestly the only downside of the Sheridan is the DPM, regardless of it being able to be yolo'd, its still going to hit whatever yolo'd it for a minimum of 1k

[queen geyser]

Idk what your on about, the SP1C has above average alpha for tier 7 lights, and is able to bump out 450 damage in 2,5 sec. while still having okay DPM and the same penetration as every other light, it has 10 degrees of gundepression and has still decent gunhandling, accuary and aimtime, the model is smoll and the tank isnt actually slow either

the only downsides of this tank is
a) The shell velocity, which is fair since u are a high mobility light tank which can use the map however he wants to and dosnt rely on shooting targets on high range
b) the fact that u are slower then other lights which means if you are out of position people can kill you yes

So idk why the tank is "statistically" bad
idk what you even mean with statistically since statwise its completly fine compare to other light tanks and
"statistically" the tank does more damage every game then every other TT light tank besides the LTG

[remote blaze]

Puff the caliban

[stuck acorn]

just nerf the armor on T92 to the point where ufp can be HE'd by 120mm guns and incorporate sheridan's spaced armor into the tank itself so it doesn't stop HE anymore and eat shells for no reason.

It should be more than enough for smoothbrains to get punished for their mistakes

You can even buff their top speed in return so they actually feel like light tanks in return, i don't care, but this armor needs to be removed

[burnt venture]

Was just curious, but...

Chinese light tank "mobility"

[granite pebble]

Remember though, the Chinese lights are perfectly fine how they are

Even though their general mobility and even reverse speed is worse than that of the super squish meds

[stone drum]

It has pretty horrendous dpm.
SP1C could honestly use a gun buff.
Change the handling to like .12/.12/.1, and the dispersion to .316 base.
And give it gunpowder.

[stone drum]

On both T92 and sheridan the reward goes down, so consequently the reliability goes up.

Regardless a tank like T49 is simply to unreliable for tier X.

[stuck acorn]

It doesn't make sheridan and T92 any less cancer though. Just buff the HE alpha to 780 to keep it more in line and nerf the gun handling in return

[acoustic estuary]

Why would they do that. Tho, the tank is fairly good right now. It might not be the most meta but it packs a punch if well used. Like all tanks.

[stone drum]

👀
I don't see how that's necessary.
I don't like sheridan either, but that seems like an excessively harsh punishment.

[stuck acorn]

Because it's just a cancer. It's essentially a very mobile TD. Gun handling nerf is just going to decrease it's toxicity by forcing the sheridan/T92 user to actually aim. Along side of the removal of armor compensated by top speed buff it would actually make it fit it's role. Not to mention that now leting a sheridan get to your side would be much more painfull with the 780 HE alpha it would have and ability to pen basically any non heavy tank from the side which i think is a fair compensation that most players would like

Spall liner is a completly different story, but 90mm of pen is still more than enough to make a good use of this shell

@acoustic estuary i never said it's OP, it's just cancerous. Also Spaced armor is literally making you immune to the type of shell that is specifically designed to counter poorly armored targets 💀. This change will just overally make these tanks fit the line more and make them less cancerous. Sheridan and T92 are there to be fragile platforms making use of gun and run playstyle. Not little cancer cars slapping you for 560 on full speed and outtrading heavy tanks

[stone drum]

Yeah, but most tanks you face are either heavies or tanks with spall liner, lol.

[acoustic estuary]

Sheridan? Too op? Please this is not warzone. Sheridan has it’s counter. Also, we are talking about a tank being fragile. Even if it has it’s spaced armor it’s not a full on immunity.

[stone drum]

@stuck acorn
90mm of pen and 780 doesn't even remotely compensate for removing its Armour and deleting its gun handling.
sigh unless your propose for say it's dispersion or aiming time to be Buffed as compensation then you might be getting somewhere.

And yeah, they are supposed to out-trade basically everything, hence why they have no dpm.

If you want a sheridan like a T49 in tier X (with the obvious other adjustments) it would need around 780/930 alpha to have an equivalent tier for tier punch.
Now I don't know about you, but a death star that goes 68kph doesn't sound like something I would want to fight.

[stuck acorn]

It doesn't need to be exactly T49 like. It is already much more accurate and has quicker reload so it doesn't need to have saame punch tier for tier.

And as i said removing all of the armor goes along with top speed buff so you can actually feel that it's a light and flank better. Nobody also said that i want to deleted the gun handling lol. I just wanted it to be nerfed to the point where it can;t reliably hit at move anything further away than 50m, because it's just not something that should be possible on a tank with that kind of mobility and alpha. This also applies more to T92 than sheri as it has even better handling for absolutely no reason

@acoustic estuary Why would i make it so innaccurate? Because it's a god damn 560 alpha light. It should need to actually aim in order to hit shots

[acoustic estuary]

That’s stupid? Why would you make it so inaccurate? For once that a LT is good enough to be meta 🫤

[stuck acorn]

as a sheridan gamer that uses Kelvin scale instead of Celcius/Farenheit i'll take it as a compliment

[stone drum]

yeah, but the dispersion is awful to be fair.
How about they change the model to sheridan pilot no.2, they give it two guns (one derpy + slightly changed current one), and they just massively Increase the after-shot bloom.

[tepid stratus]

if i could say, Vz.55 is balanced and good but, can't they make it at least 30km/h avg speed?... like it feels slower than maus and comparable to T95, even with improved fuel and engine accelerator equipment 🗿

[ancient rampart]

[stone drum]

No, his enemies are genetically enhanced Super humans.

[burnt venture]

Tbh, yes. The game gets very boring when you continuously crush enemies or get crushed by terrible teammates. It's pretty yawn city right now with the event.

If I play solo I would actually like a bit more difficult enemies which do less dumb and unpredictable things (like destroying themselves 2 min into the match), because right now it's like just loading up the game, finding a platoonmate, play two heavy tanks and turn off brain as you get 90% wins

And the wins feel like you never did anything at all except farm some damage, while the losses feel like even if there were two of you there wasn't even a chance. I hate events because close games become something of a myth

[unique scaffold]

Why they make t28 defender so weak and still sell as premium tank? Buff either the magazine reload time or the aiming time.

[teal crystal]

so basically what you are saying is that platoons should be nerfed, remove same tank types, in which I'd agree because people abuse it too much and think their stats are top tier when they platooned T1 Heavy/M6 for 10,000+ battles for a 70% WR lmao

[granite pebble]

Yeah im not gonna lie WG seriously needs to buff the ita mediums, like tier 8-10

I unironically have more fun in the 30B and actually find it to be so much better to play.

The Standard B is just.... so sluggish for how squish it is and the Progetto is the same, neither of their guns are particularly good either, like if starting from tier 8+ they at the very least had guns with insane gun handling and a bit better mobility then sure, but jesus man this is... this is only a bit better than the 132-1 in terms of how this feels.

[ornate warren]

This is literally what has happened after they changed their concept to be more welcoming for the newbies

[burnt venture]

Not really. It's heavy meta that's to blame.

In a game balanced around tank types that counter each other and have opposing roles, having a single tank type / single playstyle of tank becoming way more dominant than everything else inherently upsets the balancing in a lot of places within the game.

Because of heavy tank / heavy TD hyper dominance:

• TD MM becomes unbalanced: With 183 and Grille being the most played tanks, players playing superheavy TDs like E3 and Badger are adding an extra heavy tank to their teams while the other team gets a paper TD, inflating those tank's winrates
• Platoon MM becomes unbalanced: Platoons of heavy tanks and heavy TDs are significantly stronger and more influential than other tank types, enough to even bridge some player skill gaps
• Tank type MM clashes with Tier MM: Tier MM only makes sure there are an equal amount of vehicles for each tier, while tank type MM only cares about +1-1 tank type matching. Having a bunch of lower tier heavy tanks on your team fight higher tier heavy tanks on the other team is a surefire way to have an unbalanced game (especially at tier 8 and below)
• Over-popularity of meta heavy tanks / heavy TDs (especially at mid tiers) makes same-tier non-heavy tanks look and feel weak even when they're pretty balanced, resulting in more tanks getting "left behind" by the playerbase (AKA having 1200 XP ace bar on tech tree tier Xs)
• Over-popularity of meta heavy tanks / heavy TDs) makes inter-tier balancing way more difficult: buffing nonheavy tanks to the level of heavy tanks will just result in widening the balancing gap with the lower tier, while often not doing anything to close the gap with the next higher tier (just look at tier 567)

[nimble zodiac]

Did you... repost?

[teal crystal]

he did

[burnt venture]

There's some weird thing with automod here that limits the characters so when I tried to edit the post, it automatically deleted everything because the message was too long or something

Not the first time this happened, not sure why but discord message limit is 2000 and the automod limit is like 30 words less than that

[unique scaffold]

British mediums need better modules durability, the ammo rack is just too weak and almost every tank can easily dmg your ammo

[real bison]

if only there was a way to hide the majority of where the ammo is located behind something

[unique scaffold]

Yeah

[limpid fulcrum]

Speed is all it excels at

[orchid grove]

The problem is, British mediums have their ammo in the front hull next to the driver, similar to the Leo 1, so it can’t always be easily hidden

[burnt venture]

?

• TD alpha on an LT
• 330 HEAT
• 320m viewrange
• can literally outspot a tank, shoot it, roll 600, and stay dark
• immune to HE

Literally the lowest effort, highest reward possible light tank in the game that you can play

Bro is the type of person that typed "just rush at them" during "ATGM is unbalanced" arguments 🗿

[limpid fulcrum]

Ok, and?
Ok, and?
Ok, and?
A lot of tanks can do that, dependings mostly on environment and positioning
No, it isn’t, even if you think that, HE isn’t the only ammunition type

[main tulip]

no, only the Sheridan can do "TD alpha on an LT" or even MT mobility lmao

It absolutely is the easiest LT to play in the game, because it can outtrade most tanks, and trading favorably is by far the easiest way to attain a positive damage delta.

[orchid grove]

Sheri should be balanced like T49. Give it a small 105mm gun, but then the derp gun should be a legitimate derp. Give it 175/90 pen and 640/960 HEAT/HE and nerf down the accuracy/gun handling. It should honestly just be HE spam tank with an occasional pen

[limpid fulcrum]

You think I don’t know the Sheridans alpha? I get that it can get a lot of damage, but, it doesn’t make it bad for the game

@orchid grove yes, I need a 105mm on the Sheridan, would make it so much nicer

[autumn zodiac]

And if we are going to talk about the other classes, most light tanks in this game come nowhere close to light tank mobility. Most light tanks reach the speed of a faster than most medium. In turn most mediums are super sluggish in this game and the mass reverse speed nerfs to mediums did not help and was absolutely unnecessary.

The other class suffering equal to mediums is the sub-classes of TD that revolve around repositioning or sniping. One of the biggest issues in this game is that Heavies have very high view range capacity and can spot most TDs from a pretty good distance. There's very few tanks that maintain good camo values when firing and the tank destroyers that have to fire more often now due to the inflated Heavy tank HP values constantly lower their own camouflage. E 25 is a good example of this.

[stone drum]

310 heat, 341 with calibrated.

[leaden flare]

the thing i get the least are medium accuracy nerfs with heavy tendency to get even smaller weakspots or in general better armor

[main tulip]

you said "a lot of tanks can do that," which they clearly can't.

[burnt venture]

Not gonna point fingers, but if you are a knowledgeable player who has both played Sheridan, and played against Sheridan (especially in other light tanks and mediums), then you should know exactly how awful it is for the game lol

It's like a light tank for 50%ers. It makes zero sense with the combination of insane viewrange, mobility, and high alpha. It neither helps your team with dealing damage and sharing HP, nor is it fun to play against when there's a basic lack of counterplay against it.

IMO the current Sheridan is like just another buff short of being almost as toxic as when it had ATGMs

[orchid grove]

TDs suffer because WG sucks at map design, not necessarily because the tanks are bad

WG makes all of their maps have “dedicated” TD spots. These spots are all the same. A slight mound on the red line with a rock/house and a bush. These spots are impossible to roll 15m back from, so you can’t fire unspotted, and they’re also extremely obvious, so most players will know how to avoid getting shot by them. And also, Blitz maps have pretty much no other bushes and trees outside of these designated TD positions, so there’s 0 ability to find or make improvised sniping spots.

The net result is just an extremely unfun experience where the TD player has no choice but to sit in these crappy spots with no shots for most of the game, and on the opposing side, the mere existence of those spots hamstrings your gameplay because you know there’s going to be some TD sitting in those spots in the spawn and will punish you for aggressive play.

WG should rework, or release new maps without these dedicated spots, and add more “random” foliage to allow sniper tanks to better leverage spots during the flow of battle.

[unique scaffold]

So true, I honestly enjoy playing TD's but the maps are just awful.

Also, I don't camp at those spots because, just like you said they have no room and are obvious
I keep hiding behind cover near the front lines and act as a close support and attack when someone makes a mistake and shows his weakness to me.

[acoustic estuary]

I mean lights had the same problem. And from my point of view adding lagoon is a great help increasing the meta of light. As i find this map good for flanking / striking without being spotted.

[burnt venture]

Maps either have overpowered AF TD spots, or useless / zero TD spots.

The fact that sniping TDs are extremely oppressive (to the point of being broken) on specific maps like Dead Rail, Castilla, Canal, Oasis Palms, Molendijk, but then are basically useless on all the other maps unless played by a semi-pro speaks to how poor the map design is.

We have all basically played Dead Rail, Oasis, Castilla, Oasis, etc. with triple TDs per side. It's an absolute campfest where you actually just pray that your team will lose the active fight because then you know that the enemies are absolutely screwed when they are forced to drive 200m across the open just to get into spotting range for spawn campers. I've seen teams go 7v4 on those maps and lose, to 4 tanks camping spawn. It's ridiculous that the map design essentially forces people to take damage in order to spot TDs in a bush, because it's all open area all the way to the TD spots.

I literally want to see data and heatmaps on Castilla on battles which end in draws, because the map design is like the #1 cause of that.

It gets to the point where, when you get that one game in a blue moon where you have no campers on Dead Rail, you suddenly discover that it's actually a fun map to play because you get to actually play the game normally and use most of the map instead of hiding or clicking a button at a bush all game.

Dead Rail is probably the worst offender here. You can pick ANY spot along the north and south redline, even just in the open, sit there in a TD, and guarantee yourself some shots at some point in a battle.

[leaden flare]

and castilla is also either hit or miss for a TD because one side is insanely good and the other is painful because the TD spot is just soo much worse

maps are also often extremly onesided
mines having a good and a bad spawn
castilla having the good spawn and the bad spawn
there is prob more

[orchid grove]

The thing is, you say that the TD spots are “overpowered”, but the reality is that they really aren’t. Everyone knows exactly where they are, so no one drives into their line of sight. If you ever try playing those spots, you quickly realize that the battle just happens without you firing a shot from those spots unless you’re playing a tier VI game exclusively with players that have fewer than 3k games.

I’d say those spots are actually underpowered purely because they’re predictable. All they do is slow down the game because you can’t make fully aggressive moves as long as someone is in those spots

[burnt venture]

Oh I don't really get killed by those spots. But that doesn't necessarily mean that my team won't just throw away 3 tanks for free to people in those spots and cause a loss because they can't be bothered to drive in a way that avoids potential campers, or be smart enough to predict that there are campers there. I see this happen all the time.

And that's why those spots are overpowered. Even if you know campers are sitting there, you have to get them at some point during the game, which most of the time means that you have to just pray they make a mistake and get spotted, or they move, or you are forced to just drive at their bush and risk your HP just so you can spot them.

And because most of the time those spots are cleared last, a close game where everybody is kind of low on HP suddenly gets really passive because there's just a TD still sitting in an essentially unclearable area of the game. If you're all one shots, there's ZERO options to take down a TD in one of those spots except sit around and wait for it to move and get spotted, or capping (which isn't really an option if it's not just one tank)

I'm actually _positive that games on these maps end in more draws than other maps. Like I won't be surprised at all just because of these positions

@autumn zodiac well the general correlation most players make is TDs = camping. So you'd see TDs there more often. And I think we've already said it's a map design problem, so not strictly limited to just TDs ofc

[autumn zodiac]

The spots are overpowered because some people play impatiently/don't have the skill capacity to know yet?

Sounds less like a vehicle class issue than a player type issue. You can have any tank sit there and that situation you just described still applies

[acoustic estuary]

Let’s just say some maps prioritize some class over some. That’s basically the issue eh?

[void siren]

Would a TD in one of those spots be better than a support TD following the heavies like a lost puppy?

[burnt venture]

@orchid grove Check out the damage heatmaps for the maps I highlighted.

It really doesn't make any difference that these TD spots are "known", they still are some of the top areas on these maps for doing damage without taking any back. It's pretty clear that even though people know these areas exist, they are still taking plenty of damage from whatever tanks these spots

@void siren On these specific maps, yes. The spots are too powerful to have nobody there, assuming your team is playing more on the passive side

[main tulip]

the way synx put it, it's less about the spots being overpowered, and more that they greatly limit the gameplay of the rest of the tanks when TDs are camping.

[orchid grove]

For the most part, even teammates don’t drive into the line of sight of those spots because the only way to do so, is to YOLO push the enemy. Most players don’t YOLO push the enemy. Have you tried camping in those spots before? You’d be lucky to get more than 1-2 shots off per game.

There’s only a handful of spots I’d call “overpowered” and essentially all of them involve climbing, since they’re spots that 1. The enemy never expects you to be in, and 2. Allow you to shoot the enemy even if they aren’t literally pushing straight past the front line. Spots like the northwest redline corner on Castilla, or either corner mountain on rockfield.

[burnt venture]

The spots aren't overpowered because you can sit there and pull 4k damage every game. They're too strong because using those spots risk basically nothing for whoever is camping there, while offering insane sightlines not just on the flank you're supporting, but into the enemy spawn, onto the complete opposite flank of the map, and just all kinds of firing angles which shouldn't be present at all. They completely shut down any kind of active play in the vast areas of the map on which they can shoot.

My experience with those maps is that teammates bleed plenty of HP to those spots, those spots actually are influential enough to win games if there's any kind of spotting, and they're extremely difficult to push at any stage of the game unless the person camping stops camping. I would definitely call that overpowered, it's almost like Mines Hill level of stupidity.

WG maps should stop with these TD spots which are 3 miles in the air and have more sightlines than the phone tower in Warzone. TD spots should be more varied, with limited sightlines that support only a certain limited area of the map, and be easily counterable and flankable / have enough cover for tanks to sneak up to a close enough range for spotting.

Specific example: Corner spot on Dead Rail has ZERO business shooting towards med side. It completely negates the town in the middle whose entire purpose was to divide the map. It breaks the map, because not only can that corner spot immobilize the heavy tanks, it can also just immobilize the mediums as long as there's spotting. That I would consider completely overpowered and in need of a rework.

[acoustic estuary]

The thing is after ( camping ) and securing by example the right flank you can and need to change location. It’s pretty useless to rest there if there is nothing to shoot. That’s the issue with most players camping. Let me show you. Red arrows is changing positions and yellow arrows is shooting about there. You can do this type of active camping with fast td’s such as su130pm and other. This is the form of camping i normally do.

[acoustic estuary]

Isn’t the td’s job to make the enemy tanks take heavy damage and cover your allies? And the only class that would be able to shot down those td’s are lights with their spotting range could spot those td’s. Remember if the light don’t spot it now but when the td does shoot he loses camo which could be enough to spot it. And the moment it is spotted it gets shot down fast by your teamates and your own td’s.

[queen geyser]

I wouldnt advertise Camping in a TD more, people should step Up and play the game, not sitting in a bush for 10 mins for one shot

[burnt venture]

With how things work on these maps though, a light won't be able to even get close enough to spot them unless there's no tanks on the flank at all. And again, a lot of these spots in order to spot them you'd need to somehow be in that ~200-250m range, making yourself vulnerable to getting shot from enemies.

And remember not every game has tons of light tanks, and the solution for other classes would literally just be driving in the open trying to get shot in order to spot out those spots

Why camping in spawn is awful is simply because of exactly that: it's happening in the enemy spawn, an area which it is a terrible idea to go try to play and usually the last area which is contested by any kind of enemy. So there's no reason to make positions which are so ridiculously powerful right there in what should be considered the safest spot on any map from spotting

Spawns should be used for rotating. Not camping.

[leaden flare]

Games on Castilla and dead rails with 3tds are unplayable
You just can't step up anywhere
I've found myself way too often in the situation on Castilla heavy line that I wanted to continue the push but I couldn't as the heavy side is just a death zone if meds won't spot heavys from the church position and repositioning would take too much time

Yeah most games are pretty much 3 heavys and 3 TDs nowadays

Mid on Castilla is kinda meh the area you can cover from there is very small and u might be completely useless as the enemy can just stay back on heavy side and you can't hit them neither can you shoot med side because it's elevated
So you have to rotate leaving heavy side in that case unspotted enabling them to turbo farm your meds

Meanwhile on that hill you can cover med side while not getting shot at all it's just that you're dependent on meds doing a solid job at spotting or distracting to get the push done

[acoustic estuary]

Then again, with this so called ( td issue ) maybe players will realise how lights are useful ( meds too ) or they will go with td’s themselves. But yes out spotting a bush camping td is pretty sketchy it’s pretty much a 50/50.

@leaden flare just go middle in your heavy? You know the village some people forget that is a key point to securing the montain while being secured from td’s. And then again lights and mediums are needed to win C point or as you say ( church ). Lights and meds are always needed but most of the player base don’t want that light and meds actiom.

[stone drum]

WG just enjoys re-enacting WW1 era battles.
Charge, get mowed down by aimed fire....

btw you shouldn't necessarily disclude certain players from playing an entire class. I'm definitely not a good player, but I still enjoy playing paper tank.

[acoustic estuary]

of course you like to play paper tanks you play french tanks 😅👌
But yes, even if it’s called blitz you shouldn’t go full rambo mode.

[burnt venture]

Just my opinion but:

• bad players shouldn't be playing skill-based tanks, and should stick to heavy tanks
• good players should be player skill-based tanks because they do better in those than HTs

Current issue is, the skill-based tanks are being nerfed down while HTs/heavy TDs are being buffed to the point where EVERYBODY does way better in those than other types of tanks. So like... doesn't matter what I think

[main tulip]

It feels like there's absolutely zero correlation between how good or easy to play a tank is and how well I perform in them lol

[burnt venture]

Well ofc it's subjective depending on the player, but there's definitely tanks which are supposed to be designed pretty exclusively for more skilled players.

And like it's not some iron rule that bad players should only play heavy tanks or armored tanks in general. But this should happen naturally, because if you don't have the skill required to play a certain tank, you'd probably be more inclined to go back to playing tanks you have better results in, rather than continue to play a tank in which you do horribly. And if you have the skill to play those hard-to-play tanks, you should be rewarded with better or similar performance in those hard-to-play tanks than your usual noob friendly tanks.

The entire strive to make new players more survivable / give a better experience to noobs I do fully support. It's just that through the implementation, WG should not be making the "noob friendly" tanks also become extremely overpowered tanks for unicums and noobs alike to abuse. There needs to be a balance where you raise skill floor without also raising the skill ceiling. And WG has not found that in the last like 4 years of heavy meta.

And in return, WG should not be dumbing down tanks which were previously skill-based. There's only so much you can do to dumb down a light tank for a 50%er, while there's quite a lot you can do (gun handling nerfs, cough cough) to completely wreck the skill ceiling of skill-based tanks. So then of course, you end up with a bunch of these sad, neglected tanks with zero playerbase because you've simultaneously made them unappealing to newcomers AND good players. There's simply no reason to play a 140 or 215B.

[stone drum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is kinda what is currently the case?

@burnt venture https://tiermaker.com/create/world-of-tanks-blitz-tier-10-update-97---feb-2023-1630465

[queen geyser]

Idk if Foch is noob friendly tho

[main tulip]

5A and Kran down imo, 30b up

WZ-132-1 and 260 are tricky because they are straight up bad

https://tiermaker.com/create/world-of-tanks-blitz-tier-10-tier-list-139639

@burnt venture

oops idk what that cover picture is

[burnt venture]

lmao gimme the link and I'll do one

[sick idol]

Pz. 38H highly needs a buff.

[orchid grove]

Honestly pretty accurate. I’d just say Kran, 113, and concept are easier to play, and 113g FT, 95E6, VK90, and Foch are harder to play

[stone drum]

What would be the optimal state?

[leaden flare]

imo e6 should be skill based as the tank is very unforgiving
id also wouldnt say tvp vickers and 121 are forgiving as theyre still very low on hp and easily penned
yes tvp has the huge clip and vickers has the troll gm but thats it id put them into intermediate

[burnt venture]

EZ Game (comes with my biases, but I make up for it with humor)

This is based on my view of ease of playability, as in how easily can you just hop in the tank and consistently contribute to the team

[stone drum]

Could you make a chart of what the ideal state would be?

[burnt venture]

How Synx sees you depending on what you just told him your favorite tier X is: (ok yes I will do an actual list next post)

[stone drum]

should have done "Eats steak raw and likes it"

Before anyone asks: yes, I do eat raw meat... alot... of raw meat...

[orchid grove]

I just want you to know that I eat my steak rare

[burnt venture]

Ok here's how I think the skill ceiling / floor should be a bit more redistributed

Some of them are going to kinda look weird but that's how it is, I can't go tell everybody what I think exactly about how each tank should appeal to some demographic of player specifically lol

But basically assume, the higher the tier, the more skill-based with a higher ceiling / lower floor, and vice versa

[remote oriole]

I know I‘m late but I still want to throw my opinion in that I think these camping spots are unnecessary, especially given that tank destroyers are balanced in a way that makes them competitive in medium to close combat against other tanks

[main tulip]

They should make the VK72 somehow the most skill based tank in the game

[stone drum]

Well in my defense I am crippled, lol.

Overall though, I agree though I would consider making grille, amx m4 mle. 54, and T57 more skill based tanks.

[main tulip]

Feel like the T57 is meant to be the more generalist/generic clipper, which makes it hard to make it skill based

[stone drum]

T57 is supposed to be relatively slow & poorly armoured, but with a solid gun.

[thorny timber]

But neither it is slow for a heavy nor the Armor is poor,not so reliably armored but having Armor at the right spots where accuracy has to play the role really makes it hard to hit

[stuck acorn]

this tierlist is pretty garbage

How is E100 not in the Noob friendly class? and how is the foch there? Also why is vickers forgiving? It makes 0 sense. I wouldn't call 263 skill based either, it's not hard to play. It's just utter trash

[main tulip]

It's supposed to have the best gun of the clipper heavies, with the best DPM and fastest intraclip. The platform is meant to be mediocre overall, but not terrible in either armor or mobility. So it's like a 10/10 firepower, 5/10 armor, 5/10 mobility, which is ultimately a pretty easy to play distribution

[stone drum]

It's supposed to be armoured like the AMX-50b lol, with the Mobility of the m103.

@thorny timber supposedmm

@stuck acorn it was a rough draft, chill.

[main tulip]

It's supposed to have a gun + armor advantage equivalent to the mobility advantage that the 50b gets, and roughly evenly distributed between the 2

So say the 50b has 30% more mobility than the T57, then the T57 should have 15% more firepower and 15% more armor

Well tbh maybe not an "equivalent" amount, because the mobility is a bit less valuable

[thorny timber]

At this point I start getting autoloader nightmares with 0.5 intra

[granite pebble]

Maybe I'm just weird but the 30B is just one of those tanks that everyone says is bad but I just... I think it's pretty easy and fun to play

[stone drum]

It's easy to play, but It honestly has a super-low ceiling.
It's like a leopard made for 50%ers.

[granite pebble]

Eh, I never see any 50%er do good in the tank, none the less carry a game in it

Like, the way I see it, 55% area is where the tank gets good

[stone drum]

AMX 30b should get 340 heat pen!

[nimble zodiac]

AMX 30 B should get 330 HEAT

[ionic pond]

How about 340 APCR

[void siren]

It gets 300 pen

[drowsy wedge]

Balanc tankov, nestoji za nič, tanky, ktore neexistovali ale parametre lepšie ako king tiger

[humble depot]

When was this list made?

[stone drum]

He just made it.

@ionic pond no.

1. 30b doesn't have apcr/already has heat
2. Almost no mediums have apcr
3. 30b was literally designed around its HEAT round (and historically almost only fired heat)
4. 30b was incapable of firing any apcr rounds due to its rifling.
5. Heat is more useful on mediums, because it ignorés overmatch (ie T100lt).

[glossy pumice]

Balance of tanks good af(ironic) Tanks that acually didn't existed but their parameters are better than king tiger

[stone drum]

tiger B has been massively Buffed since it was first added. Honestly to the point, a tiger B with its "actual" armour values, gun, and mobility would easily fit into tier 7.

[remote oriole]

It would be on the strong side of tier seven. Nothing obscene but still stronger than necessary
Essentially the VK 45.03 minus the armour values is a ‚historically inspired‘ Tiger II

The mobility actually isn‘t that far off. The tank has 800 hp (100 hp more than the actual Tiger II) and like 5 tons less weight than the actual Tiger II, but the top speed matches (38 kph) and the p2w for medium terrain approximately matches the 10 hp/t the actual Tiger II had. Given that everything drives as if on road all the time in Blitz, I think the mobility is fairly accurate

[stone drum]

I believe you are disregarding mobility, it would be quite slow.

[atomic isle]

Buff sheri

[winged barn]

Buff skill

[patent helm]

the weight is not off by 5 tons and actually close to what jentz says, however you have a lot more hp if you use improved fuel etc. @stone drum quite slow according to what? the tanks in wot (blitz) are basically driven full send with no regards to reliabilty or fuel economy, unlike the museum tanks we have now, i would also say its fairly accurate

[acoustic estuary]

Mobility isn’t only speed. It’s terrain ability to cross, it’s reverse / turning, it’s acceleration. All this. Not only top speed.

[ancient rampart]

It got buffed not that long ago
It doesn't need anymore

[stone drum]

It would be abit, but still noticeably slower.

However it would have higher top speed to be fair.

[stone drum]

Vk.100 needs a massive Traverse nerf, it's actually stupid.

[stuck acorn]

both VK 100 and Vk 168 are in the worse end of T8 heavies, i'd say they are fairly balanced, just let them be

[outer compass]

Please buff FV215b, more gun dep on the side and rear!

I mean s.conq has 10°, chieftain has 10°, and why do the fv215b only has 7°???

@acoustic estuary#0 i am asking for more gun dep on the SIDE and the REAR

I mean VK90's gun depression change depending of where you turn the turret

[acoustic estuary]

Cause of the turret placement?

[stone drum]

Literally non-existent stock grind, and the terrain resistance is way better than it has any right to be.
92 on a superheavy???

[burnt venture]

That’s better than the entire VZ line

[void siren]

Stop complaining they’re fine
Compared to the skoda t56 and type 57 they lose mobility for armor

The heaviums have similar hp values and the same alpha damage of course I paired them

Oh and the skoda t56 has more hp than the Vk 100

[stone drum]

You just named too heaviums with weak (side) armour and just paired it up against à german superheavy. I'm only complaining about à single one btw.
Again, username checks out.

[unique scaffold]

The German super heavies are balanced, there is no point to this argument

But, the maus could use some turret cheeks armour buff

[deep temple]

Buff Leo 1 pls it's performance statistics is consistently bad.

[stuck acorn]

What does the stock grind have to do with how balanced the vechicle is? These tanks are one of the worse T8 heavies, if you really care about balance and aren't just raging after getting clapped by a VK player i guess you should take a look at things like Emil or 53TP first

[acoustic estuary]

Vk100p i would consider better then Maus tier for tier.
The sides are good, turret cheeks are tiny, the cupola exist just to make it weak, but even then the cupola can bounce some shots. It’s overall better tier for tier.

[dense echo]

@WG please buff the upper frontal armor of Concept 1b. You have ruined it by nerfing the upper plate. Even E5 is better than this. In the stats it says it does 380 alpha damage per shot but in the reality most of the time it does 320-340 damage. Not only that this tank's driver & loader dies more often. Also, don't forget that it's a heavy tank. It has to fight against HTs in "the front line" and not every map is suitable for it. Tell me how many maps have a hull-down position for it? Even if there were some positions you simply can't just sit there. It never performs well in the flat ground. It is so sad that a heavy tank like this has to depend on the tanks of the team. Although the price of Concept 1b is similar to Super Conqueror still feel much more comfortable playing with the Super Conqueror than this. Even in some cases T95E6 does better for it's 400 alpha, high rate of fire. Again I repeat please, give the Concept 1b some armour on its frontal upper plate or roll back to it's previous form.

[real bison]

my brother in christ its a one-trick pony that goes hulldown

thats it

why are you complaining that the tank solely meant for hulldown isnt good when not hulldown?

[leaden flare]

All maps have plenty of hulldown positions
Skill issue is big with this one
Concept is really good no changes needed at all

[dense echo]

I have explained everything. Not every map is suitable for this thing. Also it's not possible to sit in one place. Also look at the price of it. Whatever you guys gonna say. This tank needs upper plate buff to fight even on the flat ground. I hate to play as a support tank. I have driven all the tanks in the game and by comparing with them I will say more than thousands of times that Concept needs armor buff to stay in the fight in this meta

[thorny timber]

Comparing concept to e5,e5 has worse everything except the handling + frontal hull,concept has better depression speed and frontal turret armor and better ammorack positioning with the lesser odds of weird weakspots that can be hit,it can play better 1v1 brawls and has more of a low turret profile where it almost becomes invincible after hulldowning that's already good enough for it

@main tulip Doesn't change the fact that overall concept performs better in a match than an e5 can do in a hulldown position,stupid take.

[main tulip]

casually forgetting that E5 has 400 alpha and 340 heat

I never said anything about the E5 being better lol, you just made an incorrect take by saying "e5 has worse everything except the handling + frontal hull", which is in fact not true.

[real bison]

try find a map that is unsuitable for the C1B - please try.
also, this is the first time its been sold directly, outside of globes or crates, so expect a high price.

and what's wrong with being a support tank? you literally go hulldown in it, and the only people who can stop you are high alpha HE guns (often inaccurate), or someone who YOLOs their tank for yours (which often comes out with you winning). Sell your C1B, it doesnt deserve someone like you who cant even figure out that it possibly has the simplest gameplay ever.

Also, about the armour part. Absolute reliance on armour is a strat only idiots use. You dont say the Cheiftain Mk.6 is bad because it lacks hull armour and has a massive cupola, you dont say the 215B is bad because its hull is thin. They're strong tanks because they promote playstyles and have other things that make them strong; the C1B gets to literally go hulldown and be near invincible.

[dense echo]

I have better stats on Chieftain MK6. I have played with every tank of this game. I know what I'm talking about. You know nothing about me. I have shared my feedback to WG. Not with you or any players. All I want is the previous stats of the Concept 1b.

[thorny timber]

You speak as if 20 extra alpha really matters in every single match where it can only do miracles,even a standard sandbag can do way better than 20 hitpoints in tier 10

@main tulip 2 pros doesn't make a big change,i don't care if you aren't saying e5 is better than 1b,it never will be.

[main tulip]

You're reading things that I'm not at all implying, I'm merely pointing out some details that you left out.

[real bison]

you clearly dont if you think one of the best hulldown tanks in the game is terrible

it gets respectable DPM, enough mobility as well (faster than a Chief Mk.6)

and why the hell are you playing against heavies in a heavium

[dense echo]

In regular matches I follow my team. I always have to carry my team. So, I don't want to play like a support tank. Even if I want it never works in a random match. If I sit back and snipe my team will get destroyed cause often they don't know how to use armor, they don't even know how HP sharing works. So I had to do the vital part of the battle which is fighting in the frontline. By holding enemy tanks, I give my team some time to clear the other flank but with Concept it's impossible. Armor, alpha damage make differences. If Concept had it's old stats I think it would be fine or, if they don't want to buff the armor then they could buff the alpha damage to 400. I can work with that too.

[main tulip]

340 HEAT compared to 310 is a game-changing pro, lol. Probably a more noteworthy one than handling, which you did mention

[real bison]

you have to realise that actually, at its core, the C1B kinda is a support tank. Youre either assisting the mediums, or letting more armoured HTs take the shots, whilst you peek and take time to aim. If you dont like it, go play a 60TP or something - would probably suit your playstle more.

just like people who complain about doing most damage all the time in 183 and still losing but not realising that theyre not securing kills and only going for targets with high HP

[thorny timber]

1b has 300 more DPM
Better shell velocity
More top and reverse speed
Better camo
Better gun depression as well as elevation

They are better game changing capabilities,the odds are in the favour of 1b even with the slightest upper hand e5 had

@dense echo ever heard of the how weak it's mantlet and now big the ammorack in e5 is? You clearly haven't even analysed e5 properly and started crying about the pre nerf e5 being better than post nerf 1b

[dense echo]

Do you have Concept 1B? Please play with that and you will see how many bounces you get than the E5 or how many low rolls you will do compared to E5, how many times you have to poke compared to E5, how much HPs you have to trade just to do 320-380 damage compared to E5, how many times your driver & loader will die compared to E5, how many times you can survive in the Concept 1b than the E5?! Experience the tank by yourself and everything will be clear to you.

[main tulip]

and I'm not denying that, I just pointed out that you conveniently left out some details in order to support your argument, and still refuse to own up to it.

[real bison]

as an actual C1B player:

I just don’t get shot unless I get careless and show my turret sides

noticing low rolls may be a product of negativity bias

and you poke the same amount of times

your loader and driver shouldn’t die at all if you do it right

[thorny timber]

I've already mentioned it. Concept has better game changing capabilities than e5,no use of treasuring few things it is better in over things it clearly falls off?

Ratio of how much e5 has and how much it has to compensate for isn't enough to overpower concept 1b in a sub topic OR overall,other than your shots being more frequently accurate which still doesn't make a big of a change

? Tier 10 tanks don't have 500mm Armor base,what do you mean that it's not enough when it still clearly has pen-able areas and it has a overall level of a hori ap pen? Don't be ridiculous.

[main tulip]

you literally did not mention the penetration difference in your original statement, which makes your entire argument an egrigious twisting on the truth, as penetration is arguably the biggest weakness of the Concept, and one of the E5's biggest strengths.

[violet island]

your c1b is bang on your overall stats, I would rather say that your ( not recently played) chief mk.6 was in an easier farm meta, you have some impact on games with 2.2k WN8 and 65% WR, but in general you aren't someone who is always carrying his team. Sure your concept is on the lower end of your t10 heavies, however in recent times it isn't even 300 lower than any other tank with more than 20 games

[dense echo]

Wanna see how I play with Concept 1b? Go check the #replays

[sweet skiff]

as a concept 1b player, this message made me laugh

[violet island]

I know your stats on it and they tell me more than enough about the way you play it than you think they do

[dense echo]

Glad to know that my feedback made you laugh

[novel relic]

O-47 is actually getting a buff? I always figured it was a pretty decent tank, good mobility, good gun, extremely dumb mantlet...I personally saw nothing really wrong with it. But I guess it's time to dust off that tank and use it.

[stone drum]

E100:
Vk72:
E75:

@stuck acorn I'm not raging, I just think they have way too much traverse for what they are. If it had 82 terrain resistance it would be fine.

[main tulip]

I took a look at your replay, imo you played pretty well in the early and mid-round, but later on, you looked kinda lost and did not correctly anticipate where the enemies would be, and pushing the Sheridan at the end (leaving your rear open to the WT) was mega troll, could've easily lost you the game had you not gotten lucky. I also wouldn't have facehugged the IS-4 during your brawl

[burnt venture]

@WG please buff the upper frontal armor of Concept 1b. You have ruined it by nerfing the upper plate. Even E5 is better than this. In the stats it says it does 380 alpha damage per shot but in the reality most of the time it does 320-340 damage. Not only that this tank's driver & loader dies more often. Also, don't forget that it's a heavy tank. It has to fight against HTs in "the front line" and not every map is suitable for it. Tell me how many maps have a hull-down position for it? Even if there were some positions you simply can't just sit there. It never performs well in the flat ground. It is so sad that a heavy tank like this has to depend on the tanks of the team. Although the price of Concept 1b is similar to Super Conqueror still feel much more comfortable playing with the Super Conqueror than this. Even in some cases T95E6 does better for it's 400 alpha, high rate of fire. Again I repeat please, give the Concept 1b some armour on its frontal upper plate or roll back to it's previous form.

[thorny timber]

Copy 🍝

[void siren]

my brother in christ its a one-trick pony that goes hulldown

thats it

why are you complaining that the tank solely meant for hulldown isnt good when not hulldown?

[jade cargo]

__synx__#0 has been warned.

EpicDoge#4463 has been warned.

[stone drum]

Lol

[stone drum]

You haven't played every tank in the game, your actually missing quite à few on blitzstars.

[white spear]

Why isn't the AMX 13 90 faster, like some more horsepower of terrain passing ? I thing it's very sluggy, unlike a LTTB or a batchat, even MS1

[acoustic estuary]

I mean, i agree it’s either that or they give it it’s in real life pen of 320mm. They could put the 320mm pen on the premmo.

[river valley]

Do you realize that is tier 10 medium pen?

[stone drum]

So?
It's not like it's going to wreak havoc with 1700 dpm.

Afterall vickers exsists with heavy tank standard pen.

[main tulip]

WG are scared to death of giving 1 or a few mediums/lights high pen as a gimmick or defining feature of the tank. They have picked literally every way to differentiate a medium from others, except giving it more pen.

[acoustic estuary]

And the alpha is sooo good. Would be too op if given on the premmo. Would be soo op. I am scared 😱

[river valley]

Yeah you are right. Imo it could use a shorter interclip, like the tier 7 amx 13

[ebon lynx]

It's pretty much fine as it is.
It's like arguing the Type 71 was ruined after the two mobility nerfs.

[wicked quest]

The fact they went out of there way to fix the rovers 50° normalization when everyone agreed it made the tank more fun and special and even made SENSE with the tanks theme is so ridiculous

[real bison]

I’m not saying it should happen, but the Chief Mk.6’s prammo is APDS with a DU core

which should have about 400 or so mm of pen

[acoustic estuary]

The thing is if they do start to add real life pen is that some heavy tanks should be down tier or buffed HEAVILY.

[stone drum]

Heavy tanks have (should) Survivability through module placement + strength and via hp.

[acoustic estuary]

True. Give them more hp i guess.

[shrewd remnant]

Heavy tanks don’t need HP right now 😂

[acoustic estuary]

I know. Did you read the discussion before saying that?

[shrewd remnant]

Yes and your comment didn’t make any sense in relation to it, which is why I responded 🤷🏻‍♂️

[acoustic estuary]

If every tank such as the amx 13 90 did get better pen, heavies armor would be mostly useless, to compaste heavies could get an hp buff to stay a bit in the meta.

[twin egret]

It be quite convenient if the FV215b didn't have to rely on sandbags

[shrewd remnant]

But then their mobility is without purpose

Edit to further discussion bc of timer: Fast tanks have low pen because they are meant to flank and circle the heavy tanks that have armor. If they have high pen then they don’t need to circle or flank and therefore negate the purpose behind their class. Mobility comes with lower pen because you need a smaller gun.

[acoustic estuary]

How? Why would it be? Circling is still useful for avoiding shots, going spot and other stuff.

[burnt venture]

The "just flank them" argument doesn't really hold water at all lol

WG has given heavy tanks and heavy TDs extremely fast traverse to basically compensate for any kind of circling. If you play any kind of light or med regularly, you should know right off the bat that at most you get like a couple shots off at the sides and rear of heavy tanks. It doesn't matter if you can get to the side of any "slow" tank, you get maybe a 5 second window to shoot and then they've already turned to face you. Tanks with 35+ deg of traverse are so common now that circling is basically not a good strategy to save HP and do damage unless you are multiple tanks on one or playing against an Italian TD.

The 132-1 line, as we all know very well, is currently super popular and successful because they're "designed" for flanking, right?

More pen to mediums wouldn't break anything. In fact, I'd rather give meds more pen, then continue to give them useless things like "armor" and "mobility" improvements which end up doing nothing when faced against heavy tanks anyway, and instead just make medium to medium gameplay even more frustrating.

@acoustic estuary ok? then what's even your issue? "Heavy tank armor will become useless", when we have a bunch of tanks with armor like 268v4, Mino, Badger, and Type rolling around that take about 2 total braincells to play?

[acoustic estuary]

It does? Meds should still flank. By adding pen they won’t become a 1 man army.

[granite pebble]

....Huh? Are you just forgetting the high dpm heavies that exist that still have good pen? Or the TD's that have basically 3k minimum dpm with high pen high alpha, etc?

Do you know how often mediums get forced into going heavy flank on some maps because of the fact that the entire team goes that way and they struggle to even exist JUST because they didn't run calibrated?

Heavies are already meta for a plethora of reasons, and mediums struggling to pen them is not one of those reasons.

[acoustic estuary]

Why aren’t they then? Tell me those reasons. Maps? Ok maybe. But give me other ones.

[burnt venture]

The fact that we can still find people dented enough to defend heavy tanks...

[orchid grove]

Hear me out.... bring back full damage prammo jajajaja

It's not fun if I can't run full HEAT spam 😠

[acoustic estuary]

I mean it’s not all premmo that does less damage then standart ones 🤷‍♂️😅

[twin egret]

some gold ammo has neglitable alpha dmg. WZ-113 for example, still has 3k dpm when shooting gold

[granite pebble]

The excessive buffing of armor to further prevent punishment for bad positioning.
The excessive mobility and traverse buffs.
HP buffs for the sake of.... Bad players being bad and getting their HP nuked just like the armor buffs.

Iirc premium ammo having reduced alpha was also for the sake of making heavies more survivable as well since they're the main tank class that requires premium ammo to be fired at them, which EVEN with that mediums and lights had their premium pen absolutely nuked.

Do you know what all of these things indirectly buffed? Heavy tanks.

But yeah sure it's just map design that's the issue and not a plethora of other things that when combined creates a meta that heavily favors heavies.

[acoustic estuary]

No. If premmo wasn’t nerfed everyone would suffer, some more then others.

[granite pebble]

You asked for reasons I gave you reasons, and no, everyone would not suffer, mediums and lights are the only class in Blitz that is forced to run calibrated if they want to be able to rely on their premium ammo despite the already lowered alpha of it.

Heavy tanks and tank destroyers are already the dominant tank class in the game, yet no ones suffers from them having high pen premmo.

[stone drum]

Their mobility isn't for flanking or whatever hogwash you claim it's for. It's french, the point of the mobility is to run away, to reposition to a better location, and to take favorable spots quickly.

Circling is A thing of the past.

@granite pebble it was in the context of like 400mm heat pen on mediums, etc.

That's not harsh Language... lol.
Flanking is also an offensive maneuver, reposition is not necessarily an offensive maneuver. My point is the mobility is primarily for defensive rather than offensive reasons.

[shrewd remnant]

I meant for all lights and mediums, but my point works for both. You say it’s for running away or reposition to a better location. That’s also known as flanking. Watch HisRoyalFatness stream. Repositioning is most often flanking to some extent, because flanking means getting to the flank of another tank, i.e. a crossfire. Circling still works, just not as well.

Also, no need for harsh language. This is supposed to be a chill discussion. The mark of a good debater is that they can disagree politely. Just saying.

[bold horizon]

Plz fiz skoda t50 size... It's too big for a medium with no armor..it can't be played hall down bcz turret cheeks can be penetrated by any t8-t10 tanks... If it were a little smaller then it would be a fun tank

[honest knot]

not supposed to play it hulldown tbh...

[unique scaffold]

Would’ve been awsome if if the number “01” on the both legendary camouflages of tvp weren’t the same number like 01 and 02

[stuck acorn]

Is WG out of their mind again? What is that? A T9?

A tank with HEable front, going 56 kph with medicore gun (i'd even risk saying it's pretty bad, but it's not an absolute garbage so let's call it medicore) and medicore GD?

Idk how do they want to fix it, but for now CS looks like an absolute garbage

[acoustic estuary]

Looks pretty good in paper. Idk why you say the gun is bad. The mobility is good enough, the armor lacks yes so it’s gonna play more like a leopard 1 even though the aim looks a bit doodoo.

[stuck acorn]

No it doesn't. It might look decent if you just look at it, but when you compare it to Leo 1 it looks like garbage. Leo 1 is considered a fairly balanced tank, that isn't even that good by the stats itself.

This thing has comparable armor to Leo (it might have troll ufp because of angle, but nothing other than that), goes 9 kph slower, has 500 less DPM, worse alpha and worse accuracy. I mean, this is basically just worse version of Leo 1, why on earth would anybody want to play that?

@long light well, they said they won't add mechanics toggled by button so doesn't seem like it

"doesn't look well" sounds like a bit of an understatement

[long light]

Well maybe it has WoT mechanic to switch into gun handling and mobility?

Well for now CS doesnt look that well if they're releasing it with no special mechanic

[humble depot]

If that happened, I’d just sell all my premiums except the Type 62

[long light]

Well the last tech tree line was a balanced tank that had just a interesting mechanic on it, i wouldnt be surprised if they release another line thats just balanced when we have TVP, leo 1, T62a, and ehh e50m around it

It might be balanced but the tanks around it aint that balanced at all (mainly TVP, not talking about the other examples of MTs i gave)

[frigid shuttle]

nerf this tvp lol

[final warren]

Even calibrated shells don't give that much of a boost to non HEAT shells. +5% doesn't make a difference on armored tanks, it needs +10% for non HEAT shells imo. Rammer is just so much more useful for people that don't shoot all prammo. If it was +10% for non HEAT I would actually use cali

[final warren]

Are you sure they won't add a mechanic for it? Even WoT has a mechanic for it.

Assuming they do, which I was under the impression that they will, the tanks stats might be fine. If they don't, a couple buffs and it'll be fine. it's not even released yet.

Also it looks like it has a much smaller profile than the Leo1, which is something the Leo always struggles with.

[ebon lynx]

Well, there is still space for big changes.
But I think armor won't get much better, like in PC.
8 degress of gun depression isn't mediocre in my eyes, 6~7 is.

[queen geyser]

They said it wont have a mechanic, if it would have, it would have been leaked by now for sure

[final warren]

Honestly I wish they would've released the Udes instead of this. Or the swedish TD

[real bison]

neither of them would work here

[stuck acorn]

i mean the tank itself isn't a problem, WG can put literally any stats on it. Their balancing is problematic. They designed it in a way where it is bound to be better/worse Leo/E50M/Kpz. They need to make some searious changes if they want to avoid that

[burnt venture]

The armor will look better than the values, because the tank actually has insane autobounce angling on the upper plate.

It's going to be one of those tanks which has "no armor" but then bounces at the most random times, because WG just cannot make up their mind about it.

340 alpha though is straight poo and the pen is straight poo. The mobility looks to be more focused on the power to weight than the top speed which I can actually appreciate.

CS also will be getting sandbags + improved engine boost

[final warren]

Yes they would, they would both work very well here. Why don't you think so?

There is no reason for the Udes to not work. It's a small medium tank with hydraulic suspension, and it has auto bounce angles on the front. No reason why it wouldn't work.

The swedish TD is a small mobile glass cannon, something that we don't have in tier X Blitz. It could work here as well, and it would be unique to boot

[stuck acorn]

idc about engine boost really, i won't use it anyway. Sandbags are completly unjustified either, they add some value to the tank though.

I don't think it makes the tank look any better, it's design is just garbage and nothing really can change that. It's basically Kpz 50t but a lot worse

@real bison just load heat to negate autobounce lmao. heavies will have caliber good enough to overmatch it and like 99% of meds have heat as gold ammo

[real bison]

The 103B is in no way a glass cannon when it has autobounce

good luck balancing the camo, the gun, and the mobility

also the UDES having an autobounce and a gun that can outtrade things will be really fun to play against

[burnt venture]

Yeah the big disappointment is what looks like on paper the absolutely piss poor gun performance

• 340 alpha for no reason
• only 3300 DPM fully kitted out
• 290mm pen APCR which is dogwater
• still somehow has over .3 dispersion fully kitted out

This tank makes no sense at all next to the 907 and 121B

If you run into Mino, Type 71, or v4, you literally cannot do anything except run away. Even the 132-1 can do more than you because it has HEAT rounds

[runic portal]

i agree 121b is way better or 907

[final warren]

That's why you change the stats on the tank to make it balanced... Like any other tank.

Weaken the 103B armor so that it gets overmatched more. Balance the gun like how we always do. Balance the camo like always. Same with mobility.

Same thing with UDES.... Just balance it.

Your argument that they would be broken/OP isn't a strong one

[real bison]

we have seen time and time again that WG is kinda not good at doing that

[stuck acorn]

i mean, leaving the pen alone, it could be decent if other stats compensated for it

But they don't. If it won't have any special mechanic and it most likely won't it's just going to be absolute garbage

I really hope they completly change it before the release even if i'm sceptical about that

[burnt venture]

Considering the recent track record of WG's "skill-based" tanks lately, I don't have high hopes for it. But since the tanks are already out though (and I wasn't aware before that lol) I should probably stop talking about it, that's pretty much the last thing I'll say on the subject

[main tulip]

it has almost an identical gun to the E50M, funnily enough
just has better handling on the move

[real bison]

alright then, how do you suggest to balance the 103B and UDES for Blitz?

[runic portal]

if that was light i wouldnt complain but its med and bcs of that i think its the worst t10 med, even a fricking t100lt has better premium pen

[final warren]

@real bison With that logic we should never add a new tank to the game tho.

If I would balance the 103B, I would honestly keep most of the PC stats the same including siege mode. I would reduce the main frontal armor to 34 or 36 mm depending on what I want to auto bounce. It would be pretty balanced, but some changes might be needed.

The UDES is harder to balance without being able to play it. But to start I would make the gun do 400 dmg and decrease reload to match it's 2,900 dpm, with reduced pen to 245. I wouldn't give it siege mode, just give it 8° gun depression. Keep mobility the same. Keep armor the same.

Test them for a while, see what needs changed. Change it. Test it again. Rinse and repeat.

[stone drum]

AMX 30b:

[stuck acorn]

This tank looks just as bad, so poor argument

[stone drum]

It wasn't an arguement nor a contrary stance.

[burnt venture]

Issue with both those is that they need seige mode to function.

Udes especially, the tank is so flat that you're going to run into physical modeling problems if you give the tank even just 8 deg gun dep. On WoT PC, the tank has only 5 deg of gun dep frontally without using the suspension, and that's basically already where the gun is almost touching the front of the tank.

IMO seige mode can be implemented in blitz. It will almost have to be the kind where you stop / slow though, even for 103B

Seige mode implementation should also affect the STB. It looks absolutely ridiculous with the 11 deg gun dep right now. If you have seige mode, you can get 8 deg gun dep on STB + another 6 using suspension.

[real bison]

ok so, either the 103B is completely bodied by HTs, or somewhat good against MTs. But gets to have the best camo for miles, incredible accuracy and DPM, as well as being highly mobile (only mediums should be allowed to have all of the last 3, not a TD). Also, how are you gonna make a button for it and somehow not cram smaller screens up?

the UDES does not deserve such high DPM. plus with the fact that it gets the autobounce, -8 deg, and the same mobility would basically make it the new moron MT overnight. Imagine the old T-22 (pre 3CRB being added, pre traverse nerf, and before most MTs got AP as standard), and then combine that with the E 50M's low-skill playstyle, AND give it 400 alpha? yeah sure, totally balanced, plus, the UDES doesnt even get siege mode?

face it, the Swedes on PC are not at all a good fit for Blitz. In PC, there are more larger calibre guns, and arty to somewhat mitigate them. In Blitz, both would be completely unfun to play against (in fact, I'd personally wager that Sweden is the most hated nation in PC simply because of all the tier 10s being the samey hulldown playstyle with either autbounce or small weakspots)

I'd rather have the Ikv 91 as a tier 10 Swede MT- at least that looks interesting instead of hulldown tank #18261

[leaden flare]

the vz and regressor special thingy feels like wg testing the waters for speed activated special abilities like siege

[final warren]

The 103b has like 23% camo stationary. That isn't insane. Accuracy is .29, very good, but not the best. Dpm is similar to other TDs. I don't think it is classified as highly mobile. 50 kph, 35° traverse, meh terrain resistance, 18 HP/t. Did you even look at the stats?

The button is easily solved. We already have ability implemented into the game, look at uprising, boss battles, etc.

As for the UDES, 2,900 dpm is not high. In fact it is very low for a medium. The mobility is avg, 50 kph, 19 HP/t, meh terrain resistance, 50 effective traverse. The turret can be easily penned by HEAT.

I don't think you even read their stats tbh

@burnt venture I think siege mode would be easy to implement. We already have abilities in uprising and boss mode. It would be the same concept, but instead of making a tank faster it would give it more gun depression. Don't we also already have a tank with moving parts based on an ability? I might be wrong on that

[violet island]

you lose the turret, playing 103B effectively is a lot harder than you think, I don't really see a problem with it being implemented like on pc in that regard, siege mode button sure I guess. I haven't really encountered many people who hate STRVs, most semi decent players are just happy about HE free farm tbh

[outer flicker]

D1 "triple the horse power" that should be enough

[nimble zodiac]

It’s been so long, I can’t ever imagine the D1 being fast anymore

[stuck acorn]

wdym? i think i missed something

[nimble zodiac]

Not to imply D1 was ever fast, D1 is just slow.

It's the only way I can interpret the message above mine x-x

[acoustic estuary]

Wotb D1 weighs 1.6 tons less too. So doesn’t that make it faster?

[twin egret]

Is the button really an issue? Just add a button that looks somewhat identical to toggling auto aim on/off

[stone drum]

The buttons could just be a forth consumable slot like in gravity

[stuck acorn]

i mean i know D1 is slow, but i thought that your message implies that it was faster some time in the past or smth

[drowsy wedge]

taky hlupy balans tankov, jak tu asi nikde inde nenajde sa...

[outer flicker]

@stuck acorn nope is still horribly slow
I try to master every tank I play and the D1 its a horror like the FT AC

[nimble zodiac]

FT AC with the least engine power at 45 but D1 is still slower

[vast tree]

Fv215b needs an armor buff and reverse speed buff

[dusty summit]

Has E-100 been nerfed or smth? I have found myself being shot in the frontal turret more often than before, and I really don't know why, also, I began driving more TDs, and I noticed a big change in the armor of said plate, as piercing it has became easier, and finding the angle is quite common

[final warren]

When's the last time you played it? It's possible that other tanks have gotten pen buffs since then. I don't think the e100 has ever gotten it's turret nerfed

[twin egret]

A buff to the roof armour imo, reverse speed is already decent. It really needs better gun stats, on-movement-accuracy-wise

[vast tree]

12km/h is decent to you?

[burnt venture]

It's not that other tanks got a pen buff, it's probably more likely that more people now than ever are running calibrated on their tanks simply because of armor powercreep like E100, E4, Maus, etc.

Buffing such a significant part of one of the most played heavy tanks in the game means more people run calibrated, which means the buff by itself is rendered meaningless.

Tanks that rely on enemies that shoot AP have no armor. Tanks that rely on enemies that shoot AP at penetrable, mitigable weakspots, that's actual armor.

In this game, in order to have actual armor, you either have to be immune to all kinds of shells, like a Kranvagn, or have actual weakspots which bait enemies into shooting regular rounds at those weakspots instead of loading gold and buttering you. Any other kind of armor design fails to really be all that effective:

• making tanks frontally immune to AP is useless because you just get gold spammed
• making tanks frontally immune to solid shot forces HE spam which is even worse, since that's guaranteed damage

[dusty summit]

Been playin' daily for two years, maybe I have never realised, but I can asure you that no T-57 pierced that turret before, not even a Super-Conqueror, T-57 has the same pen as E-100, so it just makes it weirder, but I know that there was a slight change in the turret, there is a niche spot on the left bottom side of the frontal plate where almost anyone can pierce

[final warren]

@dusty summit
Oh well then it's probably you. A super conq can pen if he aims with prammo, or if he's using cali. A t57 can easily pen with prammo, especially when it's un-angled.

I don't recall any buffs to these tanks. Like sync said, most tanks using cali can pen ur turret. And a lot can pen without too

[steel valve]

Can we talk about XP balance Rq? Because I had a great game, (above) and got about 700 XP and that’s with my X5 XP booster, just because I barely lost because my teammate couldn’t make one shot before the enemy captured all the bases. This is what gets me so mad, and it was a balanced Tier VIII battle with two tier VIIs on each team. What’s the deal here WG

[harsh ravine]

More attention needs to be brought up of how the Fixer is just outright better compared to the Super Pershing.

Better traverse
More HP
Quicker aiming time
Punchier gun demands less exposure

Its so stupid how inferior the Super Pershing is compared to the Fixer or even the T26E5.

[final warren]

Times X bonuses only apply on wins

[acoustic estuary]

So you are asking wg to make the fixer more bad? That’s stupid.

[stone drum]

Superpershing has been Hilariously outdated for years now.
I think they may have just Buffed the armour though, could be wrong.

A fair portion of tier 8 mediums are borderline unplayable.

[twin egret]

hm, I guess a buff to 15, and better track health because it's ridiculous how fragile they are

[wooden lynx]

Fv215b side armour buff and reverse speed buff w/ removal of Super speed boost

[void mulch]

Why didn't Wargaming implement a turbo mode in the CS-63? The current CS-63 does not appear to have any advantages.

[tulip escarp]

Problem is your playing an outdated tank

[twin egret]

Now this has gotta be bait
don't feed the trolls, guys

[storm imp]

Need a buff in the DPM

[steel iris]

The new TL-7-120 is a joke. Except the gun, everything need a little bit buff.

[queen geyser]

I buy new premium tonk :)
I play bad with it :(
I get angry >:(
I ask for buffs at the wotb discord server >:(

[leaden flare]

if that happens ill only take my 150+ mm tanks out because yoloing tvps are almost a blessing in those

[remote oriole]

WG just pulls so many senseless things that I am simply beyond caring. I‘m just having fun doing some weird plays, now with chat™️

[ionic pond]

in order to rebalance a vehicle, they will take away not only the improved engine boost but also high HESH pen

which will make the vehicle as generic as many others

190mm penetrating HESH pen with calibrated, matched with good HEAT prammo can be a real killer

@wooden lynx basically they gave him amazing gun just so it plays like a rat or as an amazing 2nd line supporter
BUT, if I were to ask what to improve in FV215b, would be improved turret armor

UPD: Mistake, it is APCR, but penetration is decent I suppose, 342pen on cali plays alright, considering it is shot from accurate gun

[meager magnet]

KV-2>

[wooden lynx]

It shoots APCR not HEAT

and the HESH pen is what makes the gun really good, the side armour can be penned at almost any angle once it is exposed.

It deserves a side armour buff but not the same levels as the Super Conqueror that can sidescrape very comfortably.

The turret is already good enough the cupola is already a tricky pen due to the angle it's at, and the turret armour is already good enough to bounce a lot of shells even tank destroyer prammo.

The turret does not deserve any buff to it whatsoever, it still needs to have a weakspot in order to be balanced. It's just the sidearmour that's a bit lacking and needs some improvement.

[young forum]

Mino lower plate nerf when

[unique scaffold]

Lower plate is fine, they need to nerf it’s turret by 10 mm or something

[stuck acorn]

No, a lower plate you need to load gold on to pen (with meds with no cali you actually can't pen it even with gold lmao) is not fine.

Turret is fine, because it's meant to be strong. Lower plate is not

[unique scaffold]

Hmm… your right, they need to nerf the lower plate.
Some tanks can still pen the turret with gold ammo tho, like Jag and Obj 268

[barren hemlock]

Whats yall opinion on the vk90.01 collectible tier X

[stuck acorn]

It is what a maus would be if it was actually any good

And now fr, it is definetly the best german super havy, it has very strong armor, great GD for a rear turreted tank and a decent gun with a very good pen, i'd say it's balanced or slightly overcooked when compared to other heavies

[shrewd remnant]

And badger lol. I enjoy bullying Mino’s in hulldown fights in my badger because I can use prammo and go right through their turret while they bounce me all day.

[honest knot]

great tank, when it can sidescrape.
The rest of the time you need to be a great player to turn that huge thing into a decent tank (im talking angling and making the armor work).

[stone drum]

Meh, both Vk72 and E-100 ate superior tanks to the VK.90.01p. It's an alright tank, but it's not particularly strong.

[twin egret]

Different playstyles

[naive leaf]

Ew

[jade ore]

shhh

[harsh pebble]

make mediums the meta again. it was so fun having like 4 mediums on each teams face each other

[jade ore]

bro its not i cant play any tank having 2 meds on my team vs 4

[jade ore]

it’s not possible

[stone drum]

Strv K:

[jade ore]

no

[granite pebble]

laughs in loading premmo and invalidating the Mino's turret

Also the gun depression of the vk 90 is only good over the side of the tank, which makes it a very awkward tank to actually make work in situations that would require gun depression

[twin egret]

imo the M4 Rev could have a little bit more heat pen. The tank is known for having strong HEAT shells irl

[nimble zodiac]

Because irl
I see a problem here

[stone drum]

Still giving I 275 heat pen wouldn't be that bad.

@ancient rampart yeah, but Giving it that base would be nice.

[ancient rampart]

It has 275 heat pen ( with calibrated)

[nimble zodiac]

Ah yes, 303mm HEAT pen with CS, g r e a t

[stone drum]

T-34-3.

I meant 270 heat pen :v or 297,with cali.

[granite pebble]

Nerf 183's accuracy to .45

Thats it, no compensation, nothing, the tank literally does not deserve to have .35 accuracy with refined gun.

I am tired of beginning to peak this thing in hull down tanks and having my cupola penned just because some tard is sitting in a position that makes absolutely no sense for the tank and having my entire game ruined because WG just HAS to give these little blitz tardlets that are addicted to big numbers a tank where they can turn their brain off.

Or we just give every other TD .1 base accuracy and exasperate the problem since clearly giving guns an accuracy they have no business having is WG's business model.

A lot like how the progetto has the same accuracy as the 183 when the 183 runs refined.

[stone drum]

Are you comparing it to Progetto without any provisions or equipment?

[meager oyster]

I think Wargaming should buff the grille.
Grille have very bad stats at hiding, and the gun is not acurracy, I dont mean when stand off i mean when you move and you wanto to aim the canon is like sausace.

[granite pebble]

Im comparing the base accuracy of a medium, to the accuracy of a 930 alpha TD's potential max accuracy.

A tank with 930 alpha should never be able to get even close to accuracy thats fairly sub par for mediums at base.

None the less when said 930 alpha can turn to 1300.

@meager oyster Grille's aim time and base accuracy more than makes up for it's poor soft stats, especially when you take into consideration ret cal

[meager oyster]

I see WT auf pz IV beteer TD. Because it can turn his torret 360°, And have Great stats of hiding, and the alfa is acceptable

[analog basin]

Next buff T44100 lots of us bought it by real money at the first time it released.. just please

[granite pebble]

O-47 still needs to be buffed tbh, they need to spend an entire update cycle going through tier 8 mediums and buffing them, because there's so many that are just.... plain awful

[harsh ravine]

O-47 is pretty good now, the alpha buff it received is pretty significant, but yeah, other tier 8 mediums such as the CDC, T-44-100 and Super Pershing are just outright garbage.

[stone drum]

T26e4 gun buff, giving Lorraine 40t the proper 100mm, etc.

[analog basin]

T44100 is a scam, i spent money to buy it because it is decent tank on wot pc But it is a scam. I have been waiting for the buff for so long

[real bison]

CDC with 240 alpha and better gun handling would be enough IMO

or be special and give it 250 since it IS a TD gun

[twin egret]

T95E2, Titan-54d, TVP, WZ-122 TM, T-34-3, Patton-59, STA-1

They all have nearly 300mm of heat pen, only the STA-1 has 303mm, with the TVP just having really high apcr pen (299mm)

It's not as crazy as you think it is

[nimble zodiac]

YeahbutBLTZ9000having284x-x

[winged barn]

Asking for a buff to an already strong tank is just stupid

[twin egret]

Sure, maybe, how about a buff to the lancen then

[granite pebble]

Please....

[stuck acorn]

sounds like a skill issue. You want to nerf the worst performing T10 tank? Great idea, why haven't i thought of that!

183 may be annoying, but it isn't an excuse to trash it even more. Just cope with it, or rebalance it in a proper way, not lower it's performance down to a level of sub par T9 tank lol

[granite pebble]

Yet its the MOST played tier 10 in the game, it's seen borderline every match and yet.... the stats of the gun are surprisingly enough close to being on par with the next highest alpha gun.

Third lowest performing tank is the 4005, and the second is the Grille, clearly these tanks both need heavy buffs, and it definitely isn't because of the heavy tank/armor meta.

While we're at it, lets buff the Leo some more too since its the lowest performing medium as well.

"Sub par T9 tank"

Are you on drugs? What tier 9 tank has 930 alpha with a 300mm AP round or 1300 with a 220mm HESH round? It should be a meme tank at the absolute most, not some blitztards wet dream.

Lets also buff the Yoh and Kran a little bit too since they're lacking compared to other heavies in the 55% and below bracket, and heavily buff the 215B since its in the negatives across the board... and lets see... what light tank is suffering... oh, huh would you look at that, the stat sheet says all light tanks are suffering, except the vickers but thats only in the 65% bracket, lets heavily buff all the light tanks since the stat sheet also says they're performing poorly

We all know world of warships and warthunder has done absolute wonders by balancing their game borderline exclusively via stat sheet, we should absolutely follow suite from those masterpiece games and balance only by stat sheet too and ignore glaring issues for the sake of stat sheets.

Oh and buff caliban's soft stats and accuracy since thats basically just a meme tank, and having a tank exist purely for the memes of the stupidly high alpha is a very bad thing and it must be seen every single game.

[ebon lynx]

The 4005 is easier to fix, just get rid of the 9.2 changes.

[vestal basalt]

Give T54E1 Top Gun HE shell

[final warren]

It's only the worst performing because it is so popular. It tend to have a lot more bad players play them, which skews the stats. It's a meme tank, it shouldn't have 3,000 dpm. Nor should it have .35 dispersion. It's a toxic tank that adds nothing to the game besides camping. There shouldn't be more than 1 of these allowed on a team tbh

[humble depot]

If you’re shooting on the move with a Grille, you’re playing very wrong.

[gleaming star]

The TVP has be nerfed. I loathe this thing. Especially if there are two of these hateful things roaming around.

[thorny timber]

As digustingly broken as the tvp is,this has been asked probably a million times and there's still no sign of wg even getting close to touching it

[winged barn]

Nah, grille needs to become a tier 10 t49

[real bison]

because its meant to be like the IS-7, WZ-113

[unique scaffold]

5A’s issue isn’t the pen against the e100 it’s just because of how low it is, 5A requires little skill to do well in

[stuck acorn]

i have never said that we should balance the game only based on stats. it doesn't change the fact that 183 is hot garbage though and nerfing it's accuaracy will make it a garbage T9 in the skin of T10. And no, alpha itself doesn't justify having such a horrific accuracy. It would be justified if it had one shoting ablities like for example KV-2, SU-152 or smasher, but it doesn't. If it shoots a heavy tank it can take up to half of it's HP AT MOST. It is a huge amount, but not enough to justify everything else on the tank being garbage.

or maybe you'd rather fight with 183 having 0,4 acc, but 1750 damage and ability to kill your leopard with one good shot?

If you really want to rebalance a 183, lower down the HESH dmg to 1200 and proceed to buff some other things on it.

btw sorry for ruining your dreams about 183 being completly useless, but WG doesn't seem to have intention to do anything about it anyway so cope

@final warren i can agree with you. Such a change could lower down toxicity of this tank without completly ruining it

[mystic gorge]

It’s like the only downside to the tank tho… it boasts one of the most accurate 130mm heavy guns in the game and has insane dpm for a 460 alpha gun. Not to mention 7 degrees of gun depression with a near invincible turret and amazing speed for a heavy.

I mean yeah, it would be super nice if it got like 330-340mm or base heat pen but at that point I’d say it’s close to being one of the best tier 10 heavies in the game. The poor prem pen helps balance a tank out that otherwise would be insane if it got what it wanted

[stuck acorn]

not even a single heavy tank should have more than 320-325 base gold pen.

Change my mind

[cerulean ice]

i was thinking... give fcm 240 alpha

[night geode]

thank you wargaming for doing absolutely nothing about SuperPershing new PBR armor🙏

even lowe got its armor buff💀

[stuck acorn]

yes, it is okay. Just don't overpick if there is an enemy 183 unspotted, It's as simple as that. You don't poke like that on any other TD either.

It struggles so it doesn't need a nerf yes. But where did i say that i think everything that struggles needs a buff? 183 is in a fair state where it trades off having it's toxic alpha for being objectively garbage. It really does sound like a skill issue more with every single next of your messages. A good player treats 183 like a potentiall threat while it's still unspotted and eats it as a free damage after it finally gets lit.

And no, if every single heavy tank with like 340 heat gets it's pen nerfed, we will finally have some room for changes in armor profiles which will for sure benefit medium/light tanks the most.

@granite pebble this is even more of a skill issue. Spotted 183 is just a free damage. If you peek on it when it's looking anywhere in your direction it's just 🤦

Guy is literally complaining that his weakspots are getting hit and penned 💀

[granite pebble]

When did I ever say anything about an unspotted 183, I'm talking about having your cupola being able to be reliably hit by a 930/1300 alpha tank at mid range

Also it'd literally just be better to buff medium tank HEAT than nerfing heavy tank HEAT and then adjusting all the armor profiles.

And oh my bad I forgot that punishing players for awful positioning is a bad thing, I'll make sure I'll never peak any tank in the game again in my hulldown tanks again since expecting my relatively small weakspot to not get hit when my turret is able to be shot at for half a second is such a skill issue.

Alright lets buff KV-2 pen and accuracy, smasher pen and accuracy, SU-152 pen and accuracy, and vindicator pen and accuracy.

Let's see how absolutely balanced those tanks are with the ability to reliably hit shots with their obscene alpha damage for their tiers

Which I mean with your absolutely giga-chad unicum brain, they should be perfectly balanced.

Oh and Caliban, Caliban needs it's gun to be buffed up too since everything else about it is as garbage as the gun currently is.

[granite pebble]

Like dude really is acting like the 183 on WOTPC doesn't have absolutely garbo soft stats to balance out the alpha it has, yet the Blitz 183 literally has soft stats comparable to things like the Foch, 4005, Mino, and E3, while having better base soft stats than the JgPz all while... Still having 3k dpm and having the same accuracy as the mino.

Yes, very good tank, nothing about it needs to be changed just because of the fact that the tank attracts absolutely awful players.

[burnt venture]

183 isn't in a fair state at all TBH.

The PBR gave it a significant buff in terms of armor, and the accuracy changes basically made it have similar gun handling to the E100... on a gun with 50% more alpha.

You can say that oh, but the tank is huge, has little useful armor, is slow, etc. but those things have been pretty true since the tank came into the game, and have been part of this tank since 183 was first nerfed in gun handling, camo, and traverse speeds.

And no matter how poorly it performed, even in its WORST state, it still remained the most played tank in the game by far. But this accuracy buff has significantly increased its playerbase relative to other tanks. If you take a look at the battles played charts from 8.9-9.0, then take a look at the charts from 9.5-9.7, the stats speak for themselves. Instead of having slightly more players than the next tank, now the 183 consistently runs DOUBLE the battles of the next tank in the last few updates.

Doing ANY buffs, especially gun handling, the ONLY thing that directly affects its effectiveness at all levels, has increased the playership of an already insanely popular and toxic tank. That's not good for the game either way you look at it.

I would have rather had 183 received armor in exchange for the lower camo, than the actual BS that is the gun handling right now. It's way too consistent for the amount of punishment it deals.

The issue with the 183 is not that it's bad. It's that it's too popular. And any changes to the tank that makes it more popular than it already was is a bad change. Nobody wants 183 players on their teams or enemy teams, and the tank frankly adds nothing to the game.

I would fully support just reverting the accuracy buffs. It was a bad decision, and even more insulting when WG was going around nerfing medium tank dispersion (and nerfing Grille for "toxicity" reasons) when this buff happened.

Actual hypocrites

[leaden flare]

RIP STB accuracy

[stuck acorn]

If it's just reverting the recent change a.k.a nerfing accuaracy to like 0.36 when fully kited out and giving the AP pen back, i'm all for it.

But just straight up nerfing the accuracy by 0.1, yes 0.1 not 0.01 on one of the worst performing tanks in a tier without any compensation is just beyond crazy and idiotic

[stone drum]

Meh, I've seen way too many lights poke my/à foch 155 since they know they have a quite good chance of getting out relatively unscathed.

[unique scaffold]

Super conqueror my opinion easiest tank to play

[stone drum]

I would rather see 183 slightly Buffed and restricted to fun modes exclusively, afterall thats what it's for.

Or atleast bar it from ratings.

[real bison]

IMO a change such as making it less accurate but giving it armour to make it get closer could work

[burnt venture]

The thing is, trying to justify this tank's buffs by saying it's "the worst performing" doesn't really matter.

It's been among the worst performing tank for YEARs. It's had the least impactful influence on tier X games ever since it came out. Yet because of the high alpha, the tank still remained at the top of the popularity list. It's a tank that's both the most useless piece of garbage, the most toxic, AND the most played.

By buffing the gun handling on it, you're just ensuring that the tank becomes more and more popular without changing really anything else about it. Even if it's not as poor performing as before, the fact still remains that it is the most useless and toxic tank in the game while also being the most popular.

Maybe .1 is too much. But IMO the tank deserves no less than to have .4 base dispersion. It already has great OTM factors for a gun this size, so decreasing base dispersion just made it way too accurate even when moving. It needs ALL the buffs done to it completely reverted at the very least.

This is a pretty good example of just how much more influential so many powercrept and "weak" tanks in the game could be if they just had better gun handling. It's just a damn shame that it happened to a 183 instead of like the 50 other tanks that need this kind of change.

[violet island]

aslong as the 183 has this alpha it should not be allowed to hit anything at more than 100m at all, it takes 0 brain to play it, it has 0 positive benefits for the game. Even if it is the worst performing, the toxicity that it brings into the game should net it a 0.45
@stone drum the more dangerous it is to play the better, I don't see why you should ever be rewarded as much as in an FV for being in the back
also, even 100m doesn't face the fundamental issue of a tank having 1.3k alpha

[stone drum]

100m is basically face-hugging...

[night geode]

183 is fine, nothing wrong with it, in the worst case just give the old dispersion (before 9.1)

[stone drum]

Expectations:
Actually weak tanks & mediums get proper gun buffs, while overperforming Heavies get suitable nerfs to bring them more in-line with the other classes.

Reality:

[delicate kiln]

not even gonna lie the 183 needs a nerf to reload and accuracy

[burnt venture]

TBH I'm not sure at this point whether this is WG's absolute incompetence to understanding how this game works, or whether there's a death spiral going on where

• tank is performing poorly due to players not knowing how to play it correctly
• tank is buffed
• tank now is powerful but at the same time draws more clueless players
• stats barely go up / even goes down
• tank is buffed again
• repeat

This could literally be by design, or it's just that players who spam meta heavy tanks are just lacking a certain amount of braincells which is causing heavy tank performance to just be in the ground. Because other than those two reasons, there's no way a reasonable person sees current heavy tanks and then keeps giving them buffs and says they're OK

[stone drum]

bad players exist
slightly less bad players complain about new potatoes on their team
complaining continues for years on end with only increasing intensity.
WG tries to solve problem by making heavies ape proof and almost impossible to play poorly in
WG's plan epicly backfires as bad players are still just as bad (with the added benefit of a non-existent learning curve), and good players absolutely crush potatoes in the increasingly broken heavies.

I mean just look at this. (Specifically the hp number)

[warm palm]

Couldn't they just increase the reload on the 183, I mean like no matter how you change the accuracy of the gun it will still hit those full bloom wonky shots, but having a longer reload would make the person (hopefully) take more time and give more attention to their shots, that would help with how many people play it as most people don't want to sit there waiting for 25 seconds to reload, unless they eating soup or something in a tent, but even so that would give the opposing team time to react to that big of a hammer blow coming down on a tank

[nimble zodiac]

The whole point of being unable to react is because the 183 will only show itself after it's reloaded

[warm palm]

You are assuming that you are spotting it before it fires, I am saying that it doesn't matter this way because the reload will in most situations be long enough for you to react appropriately in a way to prevent it from smacking you again. 1, 1300 dmg shot shouldn't be enough to ruin most games but 2 or 3 really starts to make a difference, and almost every tank can react in some way to counter whether it be flush it out with a flank or assassinate it or even just give a clipper time to reload those are all viable options, bit typically the only 2 reasons a 183 can do that high of dmg is alot of shots down range and typically on unsuspecting targets. Every time I get smacked by a 183 it's because I over extended in a poke or didn't anticipate where it might be, which I feel many people also fail to do

[nimble zodiac]

I’m not saying it will always be spotted when the 183 shows itself, I meant “show itself” as in exposing it to enemy LoS before it fires.
But what will a reload nerf really do?

In non-extreme circumstances, a decent 183 will always get a first shot off, and reloading slower doesn’t change what it does afterwards

[stuck acorn]

I mean It has base dispersion above .4 so what's wrong with it? I already said that buffing gun handling on it was a horrible idea. Just put it back in pre 9.1 state and it will be fine just as it used to be for years since it was nuked with a nerf hammer

[warm palm]

So are you saying it will stay in the same spot and wait for you to poke again? Or rotate to a different position to get shots elsewhere? What is your specific con or cons of the 183 as it is, what are your thoughts, or just send me them : D
Are you arguing against it as a solution or are you saying there is a different better solution, such as gun handling, which was more of the argument I was alluding to as not always working. DMs are fine as well since 10mins is kinda long but up to you

[nimble zodiac]

I think the 183 in unbalanced by concept. Since its damage per shot is so high, you're punished for not suspecting that the 183 is in any of the multitudes of spots it could be in. It gets the first shot off, and practically, your teammates forget or ignore that the 183 was there, and allow the 183 to score even more shots. It's good for punishing a player who knew it was there, but it's bad when the first shot it gets in full stealth is so gargantuan. A 183 doesn't have to sacrifice so much HP for 1300 damage like a TVP does. It just shoots and hides. It may not be able to safely pull back out again, but it's not smoking like the TVP who just pushed against two mediums and ignored that its vulnerable when reloading.

Nerfing the reload is not the take, though. It gets the first shot, and it can hide until the second shot comes around. Honestly, it would encourage 183 camping.

[warm palm]

So what you are saying is players get punished for taking a large hit, and either not communicating its position, or maybe communicating and not having a team competent enough to remedy the situation, and I would argue many times a tvp does not sacrifice anything compared to a 183 but those are all situations that differ game to game, and many times I have seen a team prepared for a 183, track it a few times and annihilate it with maybe 1 shot of dmg done if any

[stone drum]

So from what I'm reading, 183 needs a .1725s reload nerf, and should get an extra 4kph of reverse speed, sandbags, tungsten, and reticle calibration.

[void siren]

183 needs to work like the conway: lower high pen he damage but higher low pen he damage

kaboom

[warm palm]

I feel like the problem lies more in an inexperienced player base with a lack of situational awareness/ tactical thinking or positioning and a cohesiveness with the team, based on what you said, but I may not be understanding you correctly chicken

[nimble zodiac]

It's an unfortunate reality that WG is appealing to, so I've really cut back on talking about balance anymore x-x

[warm palm]

Gotcha ok. Makes more sense now, appreciate the conversation

[warm palm]

Gotcha ok. Makes more sense now, appreciate the conversation

[nimble zodiac]

Did you actually just ping me twice with the same message or has Discord been trolling people recently?

@acoustic estuary Perhaps they're trolling the message poster by making them repost after some time?

[acoustic estuary]

He did post the message 2 times.

[acoustic estuary]

🤷‍♂️

[stuck acorn]

For some reason Discord, messenger or any other communcator sometimes gets a lag and sends a message twice for no reason, this might be the case here

[granite pebble]

I think a game mode that gave every single tank the equivalent of this would be funny ash

[warm palm]

No I didn't mean to I think it got disconnected then connected and sent it twice for some reason I only typed it once, sorry

[violet island]

Just a question, what positive effect does a 183 have on the battle?
You can’t peak anywhere cause haha funny 1300 alpha, you can’t punish a decent 183 player as he knows how to shoot unspotted and he doesn’t need to take any risks whatsoever

[patent helm]

it has a positive effect on the enemy team that gets another medium instead of a td

[ebon lynx]

Unfortunately the 183 will be that tick we'll never be able to get rid of.

[scenic kindle]

???

[warm palm]

Well there is the teaching side of it, where a person should learn about where tds position themselves, and where you potentially can blindshot, there is the high alpha which can be great at interrupting a push or an overextending tank, then you also gotta remember we have tanks like it at lower tiers ie KV2 that everyone loves, which can literally 1 shot ( or could idk if it still can) alot of things at tier 5-6 and people aren't here complaining about that, and a 183 cannot do that at all, and another thing, this is an arcade game, it's meant to be like this in a way, I see no problem in there being a high alpha td ready to dunk on whoever steps out of line, it is an interesting factor to play around, and also, it is very satisfying to kill a 183 no matter what you play even another 183, they always seem to be one of the first things focused, which makes sense and it should be

[queen geyser]

nope

[final warren]

@violet island Nothing, it has no positive effect. The green team would benefit more from any other tank being on the team than the 183. The 183 adds toxicity to the game for both teams because it encourages a camping play style and also encourages not taking kill shots.

@warm palm Everything you listed is better taught by a different TD, and is less toxic to boot.

The reason no one complains about the KV2 is because it is balanced. The KV2 actually has reasonable dispersion and gun handling for it's alpha, which is bad dispersion and bad gun handling. The 183 has relatively good gun handling and dispersion for it's alpha. The KV2 really can't just turn and shoot within 3 seconds, whereas the 183 can.

The 183 also has relatively good dpm as well. It has 3k dpm with AP, and 4200 with HESH. Since it can use it's HESH on most targets, it actually has pretty good dpm combined with good dispersion for it's alpha. The KV2 has similar DPM tier for tier, except it doesn't have HESH, which makes it's effective DPM lower since it can't HE everything as reliably.

The main reason why people complain about the 183 and not the KV2 is because the KV2 has the ability to deal huge amounts of damage, but it's dispersion reflects that. The 183 can do huge amounts of damage, but it's dispersion does not reflect that. The 183 should have .45 or so dispersion, and force players to run refined gun. It shouldn't have the ability to take 1/2 or 2/3 of a tanks HP reliably and with the ability to snapshot.

Nerfing the dispersion won't make the tank less popular or fun to play since it is fun for the same reason the KV2 is fun, the alpha. Nerfing it's dispersion will reduce toxicity however

[queen geyser]

⬆️ this

[distant river]

The main reason people complain about the 183 not the KV2 is because nobody cares about tier 6. The KV2 also has much much higher alpha for its tier, which makes it much more broken and unsuitable for the game.

Nerfing the dispersion will change the 183s performance, but that is definitely not the main issue with the tank. The issue is the impact it has on each game, which is purely down to it's alpha.

[final warren]

If you put the KV2 in tier X with the same dispersion and gun handling, but buffed the alpha, armor, etc to match a tier X tank, and make the alpha more than the 183, people still wouldn't complain about it as much as the 183. Why? Because of the dispersion and gun handling difference.

I can't speak for every player obviously, but in my experience, most people don't like the 183 because it's dispersion and gun handling is really good for how much alpha it has, plus it has HESH.

I agree that another big issue is it's impact on the game, but since wg will never remove the tank, that's not something that can be changed. Someone mentioned that it should have the same mechanic as the SU100Y, make the prammo HESH do less dmg than the standard HESH, which is a great idea.

@violet island yes, but people will always complain until it gets removed from the game. Me included. Nerfing the gun handling would reduce it's toxicity significantly though

[violet island]

people would complain, the alpha is just stupid

[warm palm]

So we could make premium hesh do less, increase dispersion by half of what you said and increase aim time by a small amount? Making a person have to sit in the open longer perhaps to have more opportunity to be punished? I'm all up for a solution, it by no means is perfect as is. I would say it's about as toxic to be hit by that as getting dunked on by an unpunished tvp

[distant river]

That's a very weird comparison to make I have no idea how you are getting anything remotely useful out of saying that

People don't play the 183 because it can hit people reliably, they play the 183 because of the damage it can do when it hits. It'll still be spammed and camped in with worse dispersion, it'll just perform worse and it's already doing awfully.

You can easily change the 183s impact on the game, you just need to nerf the alpha. The dispersion is not the issue at all.

[supple turtle]

Just played 30 games in supremacy and encounter and ratings. EVERY GAME i got shoved in a higher tier. How can me and another tier 6 heavy do anything against not one but TWO Smashers! Why me, theres 50 tanks in the tier and I get put in higher tiers EVERY TIME.

[real bison]

plays a tier below a popular tier (those being 7 due to Smasher alone, 8 because ofc, and 10)
why do i get uptiered so much

[final warren]

You kinda made the comparison first. You said the KV2 was a tier 6 so it was irrelevant, so I pointed out that even if it was a tier X the results would be the same. 🤷

Yes, people play the 183 for the alpha, not the dispersion. That's why we should nerf the dispersion. Nerfing the base alpha isn't a solution, because then it really does have 0 reason to exist in the game.

Nerfing the gun handling would make it much less toxic to gameplay while still retaining it's identity as the death star. You say it'll still be spammed and camped in, but they are going to miss a lot more shots, which is the goal. I'm not trying to make it an effective tank. I'm trying to make it more ineffective, because the whole concept of the tank means that it needs to be ineffective so that it doesn't hurt gameplay.

The dispersion is an issue for the amount of alpha it has. It can snapshot with 900-1300dmg. If it had less alpha, then dispersion wouldn't be an issue.

Your idea would work in theory, and it could make the tank more effective. But you would be changing what the death star is, it wouldn't be the same tank anymore. That's why I don't think WG would ever implement an alpha nerf. Good idea, but good luck trying to convince WG to do it

[warm palm]

We reduce it to an even 900 instead of 930 : P

[distant river]

Shifting every single stat apart from one doesn't give you a good comparison in the slightest. It's just meaningless to do.

The reason the 183 is an issue is because of the influence it has in game.
It has this influence because of three things:

1. it's extremely popular
2. it's extremely campy
3. it's got huge alpha

People do not play the tank because it's accurate, so nerfing the dispersion has no effect on 1)
It is already too inaccurate to camp anywhere near usefully, so nerfing the dispersion will have negligible impact on 2)
And nerfing the dispersion obviously has no impact on 3)

So you are left with exactly the same issues, just a worse performing tank when it's already trash. You've done nothing but imbalance the game even more, which is not a good thing.

You nerf the alpha and you hit 1) and 3), and you can then buff the tank in other areas to take care of 2), and now you've balanced the tank suitably for the game, while keeping it's uniqueness.

[supple turtle]

So I go up to tier 7 where's there's 60 tanks in the queue and get shoved in with tier8 tanks for 10 games!

[final warren]

You nerf the alpha, there is no death star. This will never happen. I agree that it will work if it did, but this will never be implemented.

You forgot one point, arguably the most important. It's good gun handling with it's alpha makes it toxic. The 3 points you made are true, but they don't address the reason why the tank is so frustrating for a lot of players to fight.

By nerfing the dispersion, I am absolutely unbalancing the tank to be worse. It will suck. Just like it should. And it will be good for the game, because it will be less toxic. And less people will play it, since it can't hit as many shots, making it less satisfying.

You say you are keeping it's uniqueness, but you are reducing it's alpha... Thereby removing it's uniqueness. Are you saying the alpha should be nerfed to 850? Because that's the lowest it can go and still be unique. Nerfing it to 850 will do nothing. Nerfing it to 800 will do nothing. You'd need to nerf it to 700 to make a difference, and at that point it isn't unique.

Again, what you are proposing isn't a bad idea, but it will never be implemented. Mine is something that can happen because it still keeps the tanks uniqueness, and it will reduce it's toxicity (snap shots)

@patent helm exactly. Might as well remove the 183 and swap it for a different one

[patent helm]

if you nerf the alpha and you buff the tank in other areas (like the pbr armor buff) your moving closer and closer to a jagdpanzer e100 with hesh

[distant river]

I genuinely have no idea where you are getting the "good gun handling" from, and on top of that it's the dispersion that is the key point to a tank that's camped in like the 183. The 183 is not an accurate tank. The three points I listed are the reasons why it's such a bad tank for the game, the "good gun handling" is nothing to do with it in the slightest.

The tank is already trash. Nerfing it's performance more doesn't make it less toxic. WG have already tried nerfing it's performance, and it's still spammed. Doing it again will have no impact.

I also have no idea where you have suddenly got the idea that it needs 700 alpha to be balanced, there's no need to strawman. An alpha nerf does not mean nerfing it to be less than something like the Jag, it's just means a nerf.

The 183 rarely ever snapshots. It's played almost universally as a pure camping tank that stares at a lane and denies any movement. That is it's issue. I'm starting to think more and more that you've just been snapshotted once and have taken that personally because you aren't saying anything accurate to the stats or the playstyle at all

[violet island]

FV being useless and having 0 reason to exist in game is the exact point that we want to achieve

[final warren]

Exactly! Glad you agree

[final warren]

I said good gun handling with it's alpha, I didn't say it has good gun handling. Nerfing the gun handling will make it unable to snapshot, meaning it won't be as toxic.

I have no idea why you keep saying that your ideas are my ideas. You were the one that said nerf the alpha. I'm just trying to figure out what you mean

You keep saying nerf the alpha, but you aren't giving numbers. What would you nerf it to? The alpha is 930 right now. You also set a limitation that it can't be less than the Jag, which is 800. So, I can only assume you want it nerfed to 800 or 850 alpha? That will do nothing to change the tanks toxicity, infact it won't change much of anything.

By snapshot I mean that it can turn it's turret 45 degrees and still be relatively accurate. I don't mean a 180° full speed turn, and then shoot.

This conversation is going no where so until you start giving me numbers I'll be done for now

[loud kelp]

Nerf Tvp, it is so toxic and everyone knows it. Idk why wg has not nerfed it yet but it really needs a big nerf to either the gun or mobility, hopefully both

[distant river]

No other tank has comparable alpha, so you can't compare the gun handling to nothing. It has trash gun handling.

I said nerf the alpha and then suddenly you said that anything short of 700 alpha wouldn't be a good enough change which is just ridiculous. You are also focusing on the AP alpha which is also not the problem. Also if the 183 had the jags alpha, it would be a very bad tank but not broken, so it's extremely obvious to see that between the 183s alpha and the jags alpha there is a sweet spot where you can have an adequate tank that is still not broken. The specifics aren't overly important, but something like 880/1050/1250 would be a good place to start from.

You still don't seem to understand that the 183 almost never turns it's turret any reasonable amount. It's a tank made to look at one position and punish anyone who tried to move, and people use it like that from the back of the map. You can see from the stats below that it also can't snapshot at all, and is not an accurate tank.

[final warren]

Thank you, some numbers.

Your right, I can't compare its gun handling to another tank with similar alpha. I can use the same logic and say "you can't say that it has bad gun handling because there are no tanks with similar alpha." It's a matter of opinion, and mine is that it's gun handling is too good for how much alpha it has.

Before you weren't giving me numbers, so I had to try and read you mind which is where the 700 alpha came from. I also had to assume that you wanted to decrease each shell proportionally. So, nerfing the AP to 880 would mean that the shells would do 880/1250/1250, which wouldn't solve anything. But now I can see that isn't what you meant.

Doing 880/1050/1250 is something that I can agree with. It solves the problem child, the HESH.

You posted the gun handling, trying to say it is bad. See, to me, that screenshot proves my point. Every one of those number should be 56/56. Not 55/56, 38/56, etc. 56/56.

[jade cargo]

neo.9870#0 was banned.

periquito4996#0 was muted.

[warm palm]

There is no fun in that, at least you could restrict it to game modes, besides people will always hate things that ruin their game, that was kinda the point

[stone drum]

Honestly in my opinion Fv215b 183 should be restricted to Hesh rounds, after all that is the point of the gun. It should have ap rounds in the first place.

[tame temple]

Moral of the story: I hate 183s

[stuck acorn]

I actually brought that idea up at one point too. Another way of dealing with 183 is just removing AP entirely and restrict it to HESH only, so it can't deal with armored targets at all. Then you can nerf HESH alpha to 1150-1200 so normal HE has an actual point and proceed to buff it in all other areas like mobility, gun handling, armor etc

[stone drum]

Do you think WG would be willing to play around with splash damage numbers?

[stuck acorn]

there is literally no need for that. 183 can already do huge amounts of damage with splash if used correctly, but it's still way less than it would be in case of an AP pen.

It would actually be nice to see a tank completly reliant on splash to damage highly armored targets frontally. It would actually require a decent amount of skill to maximize the damage and a good understanding of HE mechanic. Ofc it can do damage by shooting anywhere, but it would be just extremely ineffective

[void siren]

give the 183 2000 damage and 0 pen
on its he

[ancient rampart]

I would be 100% cool with nerfing HE splash
Kinda ridiculous when 150mm HE shells can hit as hard as a 90-105mm gun with splash

[hearty steeple]

Wouldn't that nerf also help hulldown meta more?

[tame temple]

Nope, it makes hulldown tanks' life more of a curse since they are constantly taking 400~ plus their modules breaking.

[warm palm]

so essentially we are making the 183 into arty without top down mode

[main tulip]

No, this change was implemented in PC and everyone hates it

[unique scaffold]

Why always WG nerf or derp only
Colector or premium tanks?
They should think about tree tech tanks

They should change somethings in KV-2 cuz its kinda lame.
Ok 152mm on 6 tier but bro 110mm of Pen 22.6 seconds reload almost no armor and turret speed is Just pain in the ass bruh

[real bison]

almost like there is a more normal option that allows you to actually pen people

[raven dawn]

give the 30b 390 alpha to buff dpm

give most autoloaders more dispersion and less aim time to make them camp less

[stone drum]

Instead of 390 alpha, why not 390 heat pen? 😉

[granite pebble]

It literally has better soft stats than the JgPz, comparable soft stats to the 4005 and E4, so I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about in regards to "nothing to compare it to"

Especially when the tank can have .35 dispersion

[teal crystal]

btw is the new Elephant tank going to keep the shell over distance bug or will it get patched so the heavy meta will still keep dominating?

[raven dawn]

just shoot from another angle

[stone drum]

I don't exactly have the ability to magically position my tank above enemy tanks roofs. Regardless WG being seemingly Francophobic will never buff the 30b any meaningful amount.

@teal crystal if they keep it, they have garunteed my money.

[burnt venture]

For a near 50% increase in alpha and a tank which moves less, I'm pretty sure the gun handling in general should be considered good

[delicate kiln]

just nerf the alpha dpm dispersion and its fixed

[civic flume]

Gg

[granite pebble]

Clearly theres nothing else to compare the gun handling to since there's no other TD's with that alpha.
Also I'm surprised you didn't show the JgPz which has considerably worse soft stats

[stone drum]

It appears you can predict the future.
#community-news message

[unreal coyote]

Skoda T56 seriously needs a buff! Either the DPM or the gun. Devs please look into it.

[dark mural]

I would like to suggest to add a viewcircle from your own tank in relation to the minimap the same as in WOT PC, if I remember correctly. It helps the tankcommander to see how much they actually see on the map. And last bnut not least. If they sit in a corner, that viewcircle is redcolored because of the lack of view that tank has and when a tank is in the middle of the map it is bright green. It may help a tankcommander decide it wants a better position. Just like the red colors on the tanks in zoom mode it can help tankcommanders make decisions favorable for themselves and for the team more easily.

[violet island]

it’s hated that he can pen through things like tracks/spaced armor now, the splash nerf isn’t hated

[stuck acorn]

the only reason this change was ever implemented on PC is, that HE was massivly overused there. Since they added so many impenetrable hulldown tanks there, people were so sick of it they just started firing HE at everything instead. We don't have this problem in blitz, so it is not needed

[wooden lynx]

Isn't it so fun to be HE splashed by a 183 for 500 of your HP

[stuck acorn]

People hate getting splashed, but it actually isn't a problem. Would you rather get splashed for 500 or take a full AP pen for 930?

It is a lot, but it is still less than you would get from an AP pen

If 183 splashes you, it just does less damage than it would normaly do

[wooden lynx]

500 is a lot for HE splash

[leaden flare]

Yeah no we have that once I see a hulldown tank I just yoink them for stupid amounts of dmg with HE
You can literally outtrade hulldown tanks with 152mm guns
Or the random 183 just heshing your frontplate for 700 on a heavy without penning

My 60tp ufp has been heshed 2 days ago 2 for over 600 each time
And that not even head on but angled even tho I doubt that does any difference against he

[wooden lynx]

What is the sense of having loads of turret armour if a 183 can just splash you for 500

[azure marten]

Harder to destroy but at least it’s still possible

[wooden lynx]

That's like being high rolled by an IS7

[stuck acorn]

not to mention it's not a sole problem of 183. I can do the same thing with jagdpanzer, E100, Grille, E3 or any other T10 152+ mm gun.

But if your really want to fix 183 this much, just model HESH into the game. 183 uses HESH so just model the HESH shell into the game so it works same way as in real life. HESH irl works basically the same way as HE in WoT PC after the change. It would greatly decrease the splash of 183, but only on gold shell. This way if 183 wants to pen with HESH but fails, it will do much less damage. But if it wants to splash specificaly it still can, but it would need to load a cheap HE

[violet island]

or nerf HE like on pc and while already doing that nerf 183 into the ground cause it only brings toxicity

[raven dawn]

(its already low performing)

[stuck acorn]

Oh no i got shot for 1300, nerf 183 plz

This is literally you right now. You haven't brought up even a single argument throughout the whole conversation other than "183 toxic, plz nerf"

[queen geyser]

nope

[violet island]

I fail to see anything that you send that shows why such a toxic tank should be in the game

[patent helm]

i mean compared to pc it is already nerfed because it has 1750 alpha on pc and lights on pc have 1400 ish hp there, and some heavies also have less hp than in blitz

[raven dawn]

give 215b 9 deg gun dep :trol:

[serene linden]

I think tier 10 suffers from an overall abundance of TDs. It's not unusual, to see 3 on each team, and more in 'fun' modes. I'd like to see a lmit of 2 per team as it just makes for a dull game

[jaunty plank]

Фікс бт-5!!!! @glass olive

[raven dawn]

just dont get shot

[final warren]

Good point, I don't know why I didn't bring that up

[daring scarab]

is there a way to report cheaters??

[orchid grove]

You can send a ticket to support, but in my 90k battles, I don't think I've seen any blatant cheating in this game

[daring scarab]

since I wait now over 2:00 minutes to get into one game/match what is the best US most active server

[nimble zodiac]

Describe the cheater and how they cheated
But tell me in #general-blitz-discussion

[final warren]

You shouldn't be waiting for 2 minutes on NA Server pub matches, unless you are playing in very low tiers. Or you have been placed in the bad player queue

[daring scarab]

i think i am going to start recording my matches and post them to twitch just to prove my point most my teams get wiped out in the first 30 seconds my wait times are insane tell me again this game is not rigged to the hilt oh yeah forgot to ,mention my shots go throught he other team and no damage that is constant also in this game been on since 2015 cannot stand this game then and might delete again so rigged pathetic to see this 10 games in a row to win only 2 total GARBAGE deleteing game again sad pathetic

[leaden flare]

There is a flaw in your logic
If you want to record matches you'll have to play which u can't when u uninstall it 😂

Just to point out one of the few flaws

[unique scaffold]

i can t end a tier 6 tournament to play a tier 10

[compact fulcrum]

Im just sitting here waiting for the Tankenstein buff

[acoustic estuary]

Why is the gunner of the charioteer in the hull? Cause i know for a fact the gunner is also the commander.

[acoustic estuary]

Should just remove this gunner crew and just add the role of gunner to the commander in game.

[coral condor]

Nerf in E4 reload is fast and broken

[stone drum]

"Any other tier X 152+ mm"
Foch 155 autoloader crying in corner with 620 he alpha

[stone drum]

Actually hesh works more like in blitz, since hesh doesn't Actually "penetrate" armour as you know.

Normal he of most calibers would actually do essentially nothing.

[stuck acorn]

After all of those years of being completly forgotten, E4 is finally not a garbage and found it's place as a fairly balanced tank, yet some wheraboos will still complain as they got clapped by a better player

[stone drum]

Its Wehr just fyi.
It's pretty good right now. Decent, but penetrable armour, high dpm + alpha, and decent mobility, balanced out by horrendous reverse speed, bad accuracy + aimtime + bloom, paper sides, and unimpressive penetration.

[acoustic estuary]

HE doesn’t work like blitz? The HE’s in combat are used against normally infantry, anti-tank canons buildings etc. At the least the HE would be useful against personal carriers / spotting / recon tanks such as the amx 13’s and stuff. A high caliber hesh such as the 183 if not penetrating would at least knock a crew from the shock. And since wotb isn’t that realist the compensation is damage. That’s as far as i know and think.

[winged barn]

Tog/churchill afk failtoon during the kpz70 event is the only actual cheating I have noticed.

Lol, you needed to cheat? What a noob

[twilit crystal]

I did during the kpf 70 event .

[orchid grove]

o yeah, I forgot about riggers. I was originally thinking about mods/cheats

[stone drum]

Actually HE is ineffective against AMX-13 tanks, despite what WG wants you to believe.

However a well places HE shot czn destroy modules and is quote effective for clearing mounted infantry.

[acoustic estuary]

That was an example, and to destroy any modules you have to penetrate, unless you shoot external modules.

[stone drum]

I was referring to external modules, but the shock can still damage internal modules, atleast from what I know about. (Stug vs 122mm)

[willow girder]

Why does the Sheridan have a 12.63 second reload with a 560 DMG gun and the Ho-Ro 11,51 second reload with the same 560 DMG amount can someone explain to me please,kinda confused about it. Or maybe there is a reason why?

[main tulip]

Run rammer on the Ho-Ri

Max out your crew then, because it's not supposed to be 11.5

[willow girder]

@main tulip I do

[simple glacier]

unless youre not max crew, its reload with rammer and double food is ~10s

[willow girder]

I was asking why is there 10 second reload on the ho-ri with 560 DMG gun and a 12 second reload on the Sheridan also with a 560 DMG gun. Or is there a reason for the reload difference?

[main tulip]

You got to tier 10 without realizing that different tanks with the same alpha have different reloads?

[nimble zodiac]

Did you really just ask why a light tank with the same caliber as a tank destroyer has a slower reload than said tank destroyer?

[remote oriole]

The main reason would be mobility

[granite pebble]

.....homie

[ornate warren]

Has a simple answer mate, balancing stuff

[wicked quest]

His bio says 5 years veteran btw

[burnt venture]

Current E4 is terrible balancing though, it completely strips away any kind of TD characteristics and just makes it another heavy tank

Post 9.1 E4 was literally just fine. But they had to just randomly make it a slightly different E100

IMO now it just joins the rank of Mino, 268/4, Badger, E3, etc. as just TDs which are straight up heavy tanks instead of TDs

It's also just yet another classic example of "make a tank OP everywhere else, then nerf gun handling"

[ornate warren]

They yet again made another tank simple in terms of gameplay, I wonder if they will ever stop this simplification nonsense anyday.

[stuck acorn]

i feel good about E4's situation rn. It was always more of a heavy than TD and it's perfectly fine where it is. Unlike in other cases in this one i think being very close to a heavy is justified. It gets a bit less HP and armor than other heavies, but a better gun. I mean every single tank aboe T8 in the line resembled a heavy more than TD anyway so why just not let it be this way?

Other TDs are a completly different story though.

[serene linden]

Of course not! If you can grind to tier 10 in sub-200 games now, the last thing you want after that monumental effort is to be confused by such trivialities as game mechanics

[acoustic estuary]

So? Td class has a few sub-classes, like the heavies, some are lightly armored / fast and have good dpm with good enough gun dep and turret armor we call them heavium. So why would E4 need to camp? Cause it’s a td with a 155mm? Bad reasoning, would make the turret ring mostly useless and at this point you should have went e3. Even if E3 is even mire armored. At this point i don’t understand why td’s can’t have a sub-class of frontlining td’s.

[ornate warren]

So its okay to have tanks with literally no difference in terms of playstyle? if so, why would I grind another tank if I m going to experience literally the same thing as my previous grind? is it really ok for you to just see tanks with same role ? is it really ok for you to see developers butcher unique and fun mechanics and replace them with something simplier but extremely boring?

This game lost its high levels of “strategy” when they literally made changes that increased toxicity both in public and game mechanics

[queen geyser]

its pretty okay to have tanks with "literally no diffrence in terms of playstyle" because they have diffrence in stats, there is simply not enough "playstyles" so that every tank has its own
its in my opinion common knowledge that u have subclasses of each tank type that share the same "playstyle" but differ a lot in stats, for example for heavy tank u most of the time have "super heavies" "hulldown heavies" "heaviums" etc
Why would u think is that a bad thing tho

[ornate warren]

You can easily see that the difference in stats got smaller and smaller in past 2-3 years, (or bigger but was harshly changed on another stat so its effectiveness wont be spiky when it gets to an advantagous part on the map) making these tanks be able to act just like the others that share the same role but also lose the unique advantage they have on their 3D model(armor profile) (for example; hulldown heavies used to differ more on playstyle back in the days, I recommend you to check old stats of those tanks and watch their old and current replays, you will understand what I mean by that)

Beside these, I remember tanks having actual weakspots rather than having a weakspot that is either extremely rng dependent or small (or maybe even both)

imo changes on weakpots of the tanks caused the most of this simplification thingy.

[queen geyser]

well I didnt played back then which is why I wont say anything about it but all I can say is that the game is pretty fun atm and for me the most of the tier X tanks feel enjoyable and playable in their own way

[willow girder]

@wicked quest had the account for that long but never played it

[ornate warren]

Well that is your perspective, I have nothing but respect your opinion at this point 👍 o7

[serene linden]

I think you might have missed the sarcasm…

[static ingot]

T-34/100 sucks with the 85

[burnt venture]

I mean whatever you say about the E4, the rebalancing is straight up feeding even more into heavy tank meta. Removing armor weakspots, increasing HP, increasing mobility...

Like this change was basically brought about by all those people who couldn't mitigate a single weakspot, and kept on complaining for years after E4 release lol

Y'all weren't satisfied that the E4 had borderline heavy armor + one of the best guns on a TD at tier X, because "omg muh cupola". So here's another psuedo heavy tank

[stuck acorn]

The whole point of the tank as you can guess from the name is to play with 100mm. Max a tank out first before complaining

[ornate warren]

Maybe, since I face way too many people thinking like that these days

[static ingot]

Yes but some tanks still suck no matter what. Maybe there's a thing called "Awful Grinding" that people forget? Yes a max tank can be good, but a max tank can also still be bad. A stock tank can be the same. AMX 50 100, STA-1 and T-34/100 are by far the worst stock-to-spade experiences I've had so far. Ironically both on WOTB and War Thunder in the case of the first two.

[serene linden]

I fully understand your pessimism

[stuck acorn]

AMX 50 100 and T34 100 are fairly decent stock tanks. I agree there should be some things done about exceptionally bad stocks, but not even a single one of these is one of them

[grand cliff]

Buff t100e5 s dpm

[thorny timber]

E5 needs a whole damn remake

[ornate warren]

Exactly mate

[azure marten]

Give it back its dpm in exchange for the old cupola

[orchid grove]

E4 filled a niche as an armored, turreted sniper, where it really excelled. But now it just plays the exact same role as an E-100/60TP/VK72. Frontline heavy with a big gun.

It was a sniper due to the massive pen, low HP pool, decent accuracy, and unreliable armor. As a sniper, it was uniquely well suited to a lot of the sniping positions in Blitz, since it can quickly/easily peek a corner, put out a shot, and then back away before the enemy can retaliate

[acoustic estuary]

Umh, but E3 fills more the role of heavy even tho it lacks a turret ring. The armor is overall better. My opinion is that e4 is still not the best frontliner td and i guess it can still put itself in his niche as you are saying

[ornate warren]

I hope they dont mess up its gun if they decide to rebalance the tank

[static ingot]

I've had a fair bit of ease with the general consensus stock tanks (as far as I know) though those ones have been brutal. I think for any exceptionally bad tanks, they should be put under supertier status to prevent stupidly bad things

[raven dawn]

wotb balance: buff every tank untill the t10's are more powerful than a theoretical t11 would be if it where added 5 years ago

[stuck acorn]

I meaan STA-1 could be bad, but AMX and T34 100 were decent. If you want to experience some truly horrific stock grind, you should go for: Wz 132 (T8 chinese light), ST-1, E50 or Wz-120

[static ingot]

WZ 132 is fine. Same with E50. I've gotten to WZ-132-1 and E 50 M easily with them both.

[stuck acorn]

Have you even played them fully stock? I guess you didn't?

E50 with 203mm of pen, 1800 DPM, 220 alpha, 0.37 accuracy and 15 hp/t p2w ratio? Armor on this thing is just pathetic as well. This tank would have a hard time fighting a type 62 or M41D, let alone even T8 meds.

Wz 132 is not better. It feels more competitive than E50, but still 1400 DPM with 210 alpha and around 0.4 accuracy at T8 is just a joke. Most T6 light/medium tanks have way better guns. This one has actually decent pen, so you aren't completly harmless against heavies, but it doesn't make it any better overall.

On AMX 50 100 on the other hand you get all engines from T7 tank with literally 0 grind and you can have your guns from light tank line if you grinded it before. That thing alone makes it 100 times easier to grind. And even if you haven't touched any other french lines up to this point, the gun has decent pen, decent accuracy and small, but still workable burst. It isn't handicapped by having a gun taken out from a random tank 2 tiers lower, neither it is abmyssaly slow for it's armor

On T34/100 penetration of 85mm might be abmyssal, but it's literally only thing making this tank bad in stock configuration lol. Everything else about it is at least good. This tank was actually extremely easy to grind out and isn't even comparable to any of examples mentioned above

@orchid grove E3 with like 20 kph top speed 💀 or 4202 with 40 kph top speed 🗿

[orchid grove]

Current tier Xs are already tier XI’s by 2014 standards. E-50M was literally just the E-50 with a 330 pen HEAT shell; M48 Patton had a fraction of the current DPM, a cupola, and the mantlet could be penned; E-100 had 2400 HP, 218 AP pen. The list goes on.

[static ingot]

I played them fully stock and I still had a fine time because I played LT role.

[stuck acorn]

Yeah, good luck playing LT role while barely being able to accelerate up to 30-40 kph. Thease tank can't suit any role, because they literally have stats comparable with a tank 2 tiers below them. Fully stock E50 with 75% crew could be a T7 heavy and it would end up as a balanced/underpowered tank.

It doesn't matter how you play them, because all you can do is try find somebody sideways to you and try to do 1 or 2 shots. Such a tank is only a burden to it's team and a team that has one of it's top tier tanks in such a state is basically already at a pretty big disadvantage.

Stock tanks need to be worse than top ones in order for the game to work properly, but you can't have stock tanks that are too bad. For me a good stock tank is a tank that in it's stock configuration has stats comparable to a balanced tank of a lower tier. A tank that would have hard time dealing with tanks 2 tiers lower than itself is just too much and ruins the gameplay for it's entire team. And no, free exp is not a solution here as you will always find people that either have not even a slightest idea on how it works or just won't care and rush to a T10 tank at all costs

[static ingot]

I hadn't had any problem with either and I didn't rush them. I did them in standard + fun modes. Point being is stock pain may just be subjective

for me: E50 and WZ 132 fit better for me because they fit my playstyle well
T-34/100 just is annoying. AMX 50 100 had little troll armour

[stuck acorn]

The pain itself surely is subjective. But you can objectively choose tanks that are worse/better to grind. And that's what i did. I played only few games in stock configurations of these tanks as i always do in any tank, just to know how it is. I just chose few tanks i remembered being the worst and then looked at the stats to pick the absolute worst ones of them. And that's the list.

[gleaming star]

Is there any plans to change the Premium Ammo on the FV4005 from APCR to HESH at any point?

[ancient rampart]

yeah that's a great idea
Let's make the 4005 even more of a damage farmer than it already is

[stone drum]

How are T-34/100 and AMX 50 100 relevant? I honestly confused.

[gleaming star]

The 4005 is supposed have the same gun as the Deathstar

[real bison]

and for balance reasons it doesnt

[stone drum]

So? The 127mm is honestly much more logical.

[gleaming star]

At least they should improve the HE a little more.

[wooden lynx]

It's already good it doesn't need any buffs

[static ingot]

Because it's how that all started :/

[storm spoke]

M60 should 1000% finally get the premium credit ratio it deserves

[stone drum]

so in otherwords its crédit ratio shouldn't change?

[granite pebble]

I love how the 132-1 continues to have awful WR and people still defend that the tank is fine 💀

@stone drum it has 81% still, not 130% like other tier 10's

Both it and the T-22 lack a premium coefficient

[drowsy plaza]

When those of us got it for free back in the day that was fine. But WG is selling it now, which is a bit of a slap to those wanting credits. But frankly it’s better than it was, it used to have a credit coefficient worse than the M48 Patton…

[timid blade]

Would a PBR recommendation technically count as a balance discussion?

If so, I would recommend giving a PBR to the T-62A, M4, and ARL 44

[final warren]

It definitely needs a buff, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be

[novel ruin]

Guys I just bounced 1,880 dmg from FV215b(183) in the Ha-Go in a training room the guy on the FV was so mad lol I think Ha-Go needs a armor nerf lol

[novel ruin]

Also I can pen Kranvagn with Ha-Go not saying anything and the Ha-Go doesn’t have Prammo not saying anything but

[burnt venture]

M60 now though compared to the M48 is a straight up p2w. But only because M48 just was nerfed.

It now has 10 deg gun dep instead of 8, with the same DPM, better mobility stats, faster aimtime, has 50 more base HP, AND it has more useable hull armor due to the upper/lower plate design. It's pretty much a straight upgrade

[stone drum]

M4 sherman?

@burnt venture M48 has significantly better floor armour, so atleast it's more mine resistant. Regardless M48 is still a very capable tank.

[timid blade]

Ye.

For me, my choices aren't focused to just top tier (except obv the t-62a).

Sticking to low/mid-tier would be good imo as it would have a decent impact on new players.

I'm not gonna start spouting stat changes for now, as I'll get ratio'd to oblivion by others :(

[stone drum]

Well that's why tier 1s are getting pbr, they are the first tank players own.

[timid blade]

That's also why I mentioned mid tier tanks too. M4 Sherman would be good as it's one of the most recognized tanks in the world. Why not give it a new polished look?

I know the KV-1and KV-2 got the PBR treatment, so I was wondering if a few more mid-tier tanks got it as well.

For the ARL-44, the PBR treatment would benefit it massively as it is very popular in battle and performs decently, even if it finds itself at a fully up-tiered battle.

This would also be a blessing for people who heavily use it in low tier tournaments.

[stone drum]

Wouldnt pbr weaken arl turret alit?

[timid blade]

Maybe when it comes to the stock refrigerator turret, but idk if it'll affect the top turret

[storm spoke]

what

[buoyant adder]

Nerf T110E4's DPM

[scenic kindle]

No

[ornate warren]

No

idk about you guys but I d rather have a horrible cupola than getting a dpm nerf if any change is needed

[teal crystal]

don't fix the bug on Elephant, it balances heavy meta

[nimble zodiac]

Okay. What's the bug?

Where did you even get that info?
Comedy.

[teal crystal]

41% gain over distance on AP shells
from data miners on the Blitz news and droodles servers

I'd honestly pay money to have it and actually balance the game

it's absurd how hulldown the game has gotten, elephant will balance those turrets

[ornate warren]

Youre literally preferring to cover something overcooked with another something overcooked, just like wg does. This isnt the solution mate, the current game meta literally came from a similiar source like this

[teal crystal]

heavies been overcooked for so many updates, better start releasing destroyers that will destroy hulldown heavy meta

[leaden flare]

TDs have been almost as overcooked

[drowsy plaza]

Oh PBR was a straight Patton nerf I won’t disagree, and it was a disgraceful travesty.

[thorny timber]

Just like the e5 yes

The cupola was horrible at it once but it wasn't making it a plain hulldown heavy and the speed it had was finally put to a use,and no one's waiting 10 seconds for a 400 average roll with AP at tier 10 right now,even LT mains won't tbh and E4 is doesn't deserve this since it's a TD and it's main role is to hit hard in the first place

[stone drum]

It's not overcooked, it's otherwise a pretty mid tank... lol

[main tulip]

Pretty bad tank*

[tame stirrup]

hulldown meta is super annoying. wg should make hulldown tanks have very small weakspots and force you to rotate your turret and hide move/hide the weakspot.

[acoustic estuary]

Ferdinand imo is the worst t8 td. By far.

[jovial dirge]

t110e5 is a great example of this, its cupola can be penned by a multitude of things but can be hidden by wiggling or gun blocking

[tight dragon]

What Reasons

[tame stirrup]

yup. that's how wg should design more tanks.

[acoustic estuary]

Slow, armor is peneable easily, the gun arc is eh the only real thing about it is the gun but at this point take jpanther2. Just a moving box made of paper with a 12.8cm

[tame stirrup]

jpanther 2 is so much better than ferdinand.

[acoustic estuary]

Who would have guessed, really.

[upbeat sphinx]

su 101 joins the chat
340 heat isn't anything to brag about, it does not have any practivcal use over 300mm apcr/ap at tier 8, and even tier 9. if a plate is pennable with 340 mm heat, then 8 out of 10 300mm apcr will do the same
@acoustic estuary ferdi has good gun accuracy, unlike su 101.

[acoustic estuary]

At least it has mobility to compensate. And when i played 101 it felt great. Compared to the Ferdinand

[stuck acorn]

Both of these tank are terible, but i'd still prefer the ferdi over this abmyssal unholy creation called SU-101

[ornate warren]

I wasnt actually talking about the elefant, I was actually pointing out to the ideology that that guy has in his mind

[burnt venture]

Let's take a moment to look at:

• E100 is a 130 ton tank with 1300 HP engine
• 50B is a 62 ton tank with a 1400 HP engine
• E100 is over a meter longer than the 50B
• Same base traverse speed
• Fysiks

🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿

[void siren]

to be fair every french tank past the 50 100 are basically disabled in terms of traverse

its their special mechanic ^_^

[acoustic estuary]

They both have 1200hp tho. They are using the Maybach 230 supercharged to get that hp. And if you didn’t know the E100 should have had 40km/h top speed with way less power to weight so stop complaining 🤷‍♂️

[stone drum]

It's also worth mentioning that somehow the E-100 has neutral traverse cough impossible cough even though 50b also had neutral traverse and the same transmission, but rebuilt to be stronger.

Oh yeah, btw E-100's engine would have made 750-790hp absolute tops, for 50b 850-1000

@acoustic estuary E-100 would have been hard capped at 25kph.

ZF2000

[acoustic estuary]

Wait the 50b has the Mekydro transmission?

[analog basin]

E4 OP ? Join them,

[teal crystal]

lmao the ratio, only thumbs up have to be people that spam heavies like their WR depends on it

[leaden flare]

id say the TD mains are mad because someone called out the stupid buffs these tanks continously receive for no real reason

Not like TDs are almost as common as heavys and twice as toxic

[teal crystal]

TDs usually lack DpM now, plus they usually trade a lot in regards for the guns they have

heavies sacrifice nearly nothing other than view range which makes it toxic, more so than destroyers and they keep getting away with it

[leaden flare]

heavys at least contribute to an active gameplay TDs slow it down and make it very campy

id rather have 5 heavys than 3 TDs on each side

[granite pebble]

Oh you mean the active gameplay of sitting behind cover waiting for someone to peak?

[leaden flare]

sitting behind a rock frontline is already much more active than the avg redliner
im not saying heavys arent overbuffed
im just saying that TDs got almost the same amount of stupid buffs/reworks that they really didnt need

[twin egret]

it's two extremes. If one team has downhull heavies and the other doesnt, it tends to be a long drawn out game

[scarlet thunder]

I think kran should have better turn rate by about 3-6 degrees.

[stone drum]

Yeah stupid buffs, like how they made the Foch and Foch 155 completely busted, same for grille & obj 263.

Some tds like jageroo, e4, and badger did get lucky though.

[thorny timber]

TDs should be what they are named for,good gun and with a slight spike to Armor/speed making the Armor and speed stats exclusive to a TD makes it fairly toxic because most tds are just compared with heavys anyways and that puts a fake sense of balance,which ultimately harms the mediums and lights anyway

[nocturne mauve]

Heavies ruin the game way more than TDs lmao, anyone who thinks TDs are the issue have some serious mental problem

[winged barn]

What? Are people really saying the class of tanks that completely relies on idiots to sit in the open are too strong? Lol. Tds are actual garbage.

Tds that are armored (except badger and e3) have heavies that do their job better than them.

Tds for damage output are better off swapped out for mediums which can actually hunt down the damage rather than wait for idiots to feed it to them.

All relevant tds stray far from actual td gameplay.

I'm not a td hater because I hate fighting them, I don't want tds on my team.

[thorny timber]

Only the 'real' tds are actually balanced out with meta that have broken or over modified heavies in them,things like badger are too strong whereas things like Mino are apparently weak and doesn't even have a proper td gun,just a crappy reloader,tds aren't even tds anymore because everything even the heavies are too mobile for them to put out the DPM or the alpha,only the ones who can react faster + can afford invading the opponent territory can actually put out some damage,everything else does not live to tell the tale

And I'm not saying that tds are bad or that they're too good,they're just not what they should be and are just turning into ultimately brain dead heavys in a td tag or just a scratch

[rapid basin]

Minotauro buff.
1900hp>2100hp
The mino can't last Long in battle and having the armor of a heavy and speed but it has no health so I think it could be a buff.
1st shell reload buff I'm nit exactly sure how much but like the Kranvagen maybe like
17.91
14.84
12.61
That's what I suggest for the test server but everyone complains the second I say something about the mino if it sucks so badly buff it a while ago I suggested it and everyone cried about it I think it needs a buff and alot would probably agree what do you think?

[stone drum]

That would cripple Minotauro...

12.61 + 3.51 for 490 alpha... that gives us about 1821 dpm for the first shell.

@remote oriole making a tank outright worse does not make it more skill-based, It just makes it objectively worse.

[remote oriole]

I‘m not one of alot who agree, in fact I most decidedly object to your suggestion and instead demand a nerf for the Minotaur to make it more skill dependent:

Lower plate to 100mm
Cupola to 150mm
Alpha to 450
Intraclip to 5s
Shell reload for non-reserve shells reduced by 1.5s

Well, as you can see I add frontal weakspots, which demands more skill when driving the tank. I also nerf the intraclip, which means you actually have to think if you really want to dump your whole mag. And I also reduce alpha to make the mag less effective, forcing the player to spread the damage dealt over more mags. Additionally, the tank is outright nerfed because it overperforms and thus deserves a nerf

[autumn zodiac]

You have forgotten that french tanks use butter in place of Grouts on their tracks

Everyone knows this

[stone drum]

What you are suggesting would literally cripple the tank beyond comparison, now you have a slow tank with an absolutely horrible gun, and that lacks the armour to compensate for its glaring flaws.

@remote oriole having a tank be borderline unplayable is not an acceptable proposition, as balancing updates for an individual are quite rare.
If you want to Nerf it so harshly then you should buff other aspects of it to keep it à playable vehicle.

[rapid basin]

The mino already has penatratable armor just load premium and it goes through why would you nerf it so much like that is a massive nerf ur reducing armor by 160mm that's way to much it should be left as is. The interclip I can agree with. I still stand with HP buff. The 1st need sto not be 28s its insane it would be like 26.5 which Is still way to high if the mino is the worst td buff it not nerf. 450 God no. Maybe like 540 it's 613 rn also the reload for 540 alpha would maybe be
19.67
17.54
15.31
Can someone do math on that?

[main tulip]

My suggestion for the minotauro:

• Lower plate nerfed to a level where it's still a little bit troll against standard, but even med prammo should butter it without CS
• turret armor buffed by 20mm, so it resists 340 heat
• clip size increased to 4. Reload of the first shell reduced by 2 seconds, middle shells by 1 second.
• Intraclip increased to 4 seconds
• accuracy buffed to 0.317

Also a bit of an out of left field idea, but perhaps instead of having a super long reload for the reserve shell, the punishment for firing it is a permanent reduction to the accuracy of the gun.

[twilit flare]

its fine how it is

[rapid basin]

I agree with this
The lower plate is almost always a weak spot in wotb so it's reasonable. Like damaging the gun? 4 shells is alot but 4005 :/
Maybe a interclip consumable like BC and 4005?
Just a thought. Anything with the speed?
Like a slight turret turn speed buff and hull? By Like 2 or 3. Also rybak no it's not fine it's a bad TD.
Do admins actually read these?

[main tulip]

Idk, I like the idea of having a "reserve shell" that you're discouraged from firing except in the case of emergencies, but currently it's pretty boring and not even an actual separate mechanic from a regular autoreloader. Damaging the gun through firing is more interesting imo, and also has some ground in realism (not completely, I'm aware) since it's similar to overheating the barrel on a machine gun or something, as you've effectively fired it too many times in quick succession.

[stone drum]

It's certainly not the worst tier X td, nor is in the top 5 weakest tier X tds.

LMAO.

1. obj 263- Once the yolowagon, now the worst tier X td
2. Fv215b 183- basically useless except alpha, objectively it's just a bad tank as it should be
3. Grille 15- just a sniper tank that has slowly been eroded
4. Foch 155- formerly a vulnerable yet extremely deadly close support assualt gun, now it's just a somewhat weak Clipper with an unimpressive gun.
5. Fv4005 & ho-ri both are very good tanks that are incredibly powerful and effective in Capable hands, however therein liés their weakness. Capable hands are something of an anomaly amoungst blitz players, as such the majority of players cannot make good use of their strengths.

[rapid basin]

Reserve shell is a investing mechanic but but it's the same as a autoloader but it kinda reloads faster.
What about reload speeds and alpha?
17/1 How's it not the worst what's worse?

[twin egret]

Why not make the reserve shell as something that reloads passively along as you reload your shells?

[rapid basin]

263 is still decent its a fast some reason good upper armor and high pen gun 183 is a slapper grille maybe foxhole definitely 4005 and ho ri are amazing tanks 4005 just run in do 2k damage in 5s ho ri is a decently armored mobile infinite penetration tank

[stone drum]

263 isn't even remotely near decent.
Minotauro is a better tank for the majority of players than the aforementioned tanks.

[main tulip]

Because then there isn't a reason to not just dump the full clip with the reserve shell when you get the chance. The whole purpose of the reserve shell is that it should only be used in the case of emergency. This can only be implemented in two ways that I can see: either you incur a consequence for firing it (My suggestion), or you only get to use it once, and you never get it back for the duration of the game.

[twin egret]

I was picturing a very long reload for it

[stuck acorn]

263 is not even close to being decent. It's outright garbage

[stone drum]

Preach

[main tulip]

No matter how long it is, it will essentially be a bonus shot that you get x amount of times per battle - not quite the intended purpose of the reserve shell.

[twin egret]

Just make the reload exponential, or better yet, reload passively when not firing, resetting if you do fire.

[stone drum]

1. This isn't mm discussion
2. Are you going to Completely ignore 3 players on the enemy team did absolutely nothing.

@fair pebble
Read the pinned comments

[distant river]

#tank-balance-discussion message
@fair pebble 🤦‍♀️

[silk token]

bjr, IS it possible to put the side battles forward
by adding rank EX: FER before bronze FER 0+ BRONZE 1000+
AND ADDED a rank above D like COTE MASTER jsp anything
and also have great rewards for big players (not a t8 a t10 please c the minimum when you make 6000 aside...
Please!!!!!!!

[stone drum]

English is necessary in this server

[nimble zodiac]

We're not offended, we're just trying to let you know that you can get muted for this kind of stuff in this channel :p

We all know it's just a mald because of a bad game though

[silk token]

@stone drum bjr, IS it possible to put the side battles forward
by adding rank EX: FER before bronze FER 0+ BRONZE 1000+
AND ADDED a rank above D like COTE MASTER jsp anything
and also have great rewards for big players (not a t8 a t10 please c the minimum when you make 6000 aside...
Please!!!!!!!

[jade cargo]

balfanno#0 has been warned.

[stuck acorn]

please learn how to speak english before taking part inany conversation. Also, there is no way they are going to give a free T10 tank just for reaching 6k points in ratings, it's way to easy. But what they could do is giving us some original T8s or at least if they really want to add copypastes, changing their parameters significantly, so that they are worth getting.

Adding some sort of Iron league below bronze and other league above diamond (idk how it could be called, maybe saphire or ruby? or just add something in between and put diamond higher?) is a nice idea tho.

[stone drum]

I mean he just ran it through a simply translator (more than most people do). I would be available to assist if further translations though.

Also maybe parts of a tier X certificate (maybe say 5+ of any of your choosing) could be a potential reward.

[silk token]

@stuck acornI make the effort to speak English compared to English and French....

[ancient rampart]

The Fochs are shadows of their former selves
The Grille is extremely lackluster besides it's accuracy they nerfed it's alpha while leaving it's camo unusable
Jageroo has always been solid
E4 got much needed buffs
and the Badger is just dumb

[tame temple]

I honestly preferred the former E4 being a mid ranged accurate gun that punishes people who peak cluelessly regardless of their armor.

[main tulip]

The E4's previous form was vastly superior in terms of game design. It needs to be its own thing, not a TD cosplaying as a heavy.

[stuck acorn]

idc about armor buffs, but reload and HP buffs were huge game changers for the tank. I think it's much better now

[tame temple]

@main tulip agreed
@stuck acorn the fact that it has a very close reload to the E5 and grille makes it dumb let alone the troll cupola, I also agree that the armor changes weren't that much of a deal on that tank, I just miss snapping shells with it without the need to wait and aim at weak spots because the pen is the worst T10 TD pen (after the mino).

Also horsepower and traverse buffs are worth mentioning since they're noticeable on the tank currently.

[stone drum]

They could easily fix the foch 155 by buffing the reverse speed and decreasing the dispersion on traverse.

An alpha and gun arc buff would be nice tho.

[tame temple]

A Foch B would be kinda fun to me

[stone drum]

With a 3×400 clip or something bigger?

[nimble zodiac]

For this message, I believe this person wants an Iron and/or Master rank to be added below and above the rank ladder, respectively.

Unfortunately, tank balance discussion 💀

[tame temple]

Idk but it should be different from the 4005.

Maybe more accurate 4 shell with 400 alpha and same pen as the 50b?

Maybe a 5 shell 380 alpha? (Let's exclude that...)
Maybe a three shell with a quick interclip but same accuracy as the 50b? (Not another TVP)

@stone drum the first one might be ok but it would need a decent interclip.

[stone drum]

how about like 6×310 or 5×360 with maybe a 2.25s intraclip.

I think 2.25s intraclip would be fine given it has extremely low alpha + penetration.

5×360 could also work, as it would be unable to trade.

[tame temple]

So a Foch B should have the exact same hull as the 155 but the gun is tricky, the clip size specifically can decide whether it's gonna be broken or not, and the rule is to make it a better clipper in terms of accuracy than the 4005.
So it should be:
-turretless with a decent frontal armor (basically a Foch).
-more accurate than the 4005.
-worse pen than the 4005 (equivalent to the 50b's)
-technically it's a 50b's gun so 380 alpha is a must to differentiate it between the 4005.
-4 shell would be the same as the 50b and 4005 but the catch is the interclip being just as you said 2.25/2.4-...ish..

Now you have a clipper that is different from it's counterparts ! (Hopefully 😂)

[real bison]

dont agree with the accuracy buff

the average goober would camp because they think its a sniper

happened with the 183 as well, except more people camped (why does it get anything for the fact it can crossmap someone for half - most of their HP)

[stone drum]

The penetration would actually be worse than 50b likely; as it's actually not the same gun it's an older variant (the difference being pressure and the fact it is Chambered for 1 peice rather than two peice ammo.)

[main tulip]

How about a handling buff but keep the accuracy trash then?

[unique scaffold]

Balancing discussion why is the T34 Independence got hull armor like paper.
Literally every TANK 5-7 tier can deal damage.

It only doesn’t tank damage off of ricochet.
And it’s a heavy tank.
But it acts like a tank destroyer.

[ancient rampart]

It's a hull down heavy
It has very weak hull armor
But it has one of the strongest turrets and some of the highest pen for the tier

[stone drum]

Honestly after 10.0, the AMX m4 mle. 45 is extremely good. Its actually ridiculous how much more comfortable it is.

[stuck acorn]

what? What according to you makes this tank act like a TD?

This is a prime example of hulldown heavy. It is meant to have garbage hull armor. If you can't use the turret of this tank, it is your problem

[real bison]

your skill issue is why tanks like the 60TP get to have -20kph reverse

[unique scaffold]

The thing acts like a tank destroyer for the same reason I told the other guy for the thing has PAPER ARMOR.

At the very least have a classification that tells us it’s a hull-down heavy like including it as a buff cause when I got this tank I thought it had good armor

And don’t go at me for not being able to use the turret I’ve see other tanks with the same damage and more armor in china and Russian tanks.
(Of same tier)

[ancient rampart]

It has good armor
It's just not on the hull
The turret is damn near unpennable by tier 8s and tier 7s
It's also very accurate and has stupidly good pen

[stuck acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-sounds-like-skill-issue-monke-dancing-gif-22439519

That must be one of the biggest skill issues i've seen in at least few months on this channel lol.

Armor on this thing is great, you are just extremely bad at the game and can't use it properly. The whole point of hulldown heavies is to keep the hull down, behind obstacles and show only your turret which is extremely strong.

If you can't do that, you will get destroyed, as you deserve for buying a T8 premium without understanding even the most basic rules of playing it.

Please, don't embarass yourself even more, stop spreading nonsense, learn how to play and then enjoy your tank. This is a balance discussion channel, not a circus

No, it doesn't have such a benefit. It's turret is just so strong that it rarely gets broken. But it doesn't mean it can't be damaged. It can, it just rarely happens

[unique scaffold]

It does have the benefit of not being able to have its turret mod broken.

That should be in the tank description as an attribute like “concealment while moving”

[real bison]

no that’s not a mechanic in itself

it’s usage of the movement mechanic combined with your brain (most freshies lack one or possess one filled with incorrect assumptions) to be in a position where you have cover

[stuck acorn]

Complaining about weak hull in the hulldown heavy:

https://tenor.com/view/clown-gif-25799821

[stone drum]

To be fair T34 could use abit of an aimtime/bloom buff. .24/.24 is nasty.

@unique scaffold personal insults? Really man?

[ancient rampart]

I would love for the T34 to get an aimtime buff
I would play the tank so much more if it did

[main crow]

Gun rammer or calibrated shells
For IS-7

[stone drum]

Shave off a second or so and it would be In good shape

[teal crystal]

Just drive a Kran if you want that, duhh, jk reserve shell is absurd

[teal crystal]

TDs used to be good when heavies weren't overcooked, back when soviet 122s were 175mm of standard pen with 2500dpm, all heavies had punchier guns and armor, some had extreme mobility with the only cost being view range and camo rating other than that, heavies stall the game more than TDs because TDs just have a large gun with DpM but with low view range but usually very high camo rating when stationary, the same thing is happening with high tiers again and it's getting annoying that you can't support your team when they keep getting farmed by mobile hulldown spamming meta, half of all heavies are literally autoloaders, destroyers should reliably pen tanks no matter their profile because it's in their name

plus a destroyer is extremely team dependent while a heavy isn't

A destroyer will use their brain more since it isn't overcooked
A heavy will just use overcompensated armor and mobility for their lack of braincells

[acoustic estuary]

Heavies being not team dependent, good joke.

[teal crystal]

I'd like to see some examples, they'd easily 1v1 any tank without support because of how overcooked they have been for so long

edit: Facepalm because you can't set up a good argument

@wooden lynx ; I have the hori, it's not as good as people make it out to be, easily flanked and highly team dependent, you' d be lucky to have anyone spotting thanks to this overcooked heavy hulldown meta

[wooden lynx]

It's crazy how much armour heavies now have, even high(HEAT) pen TDs like the Jpe.100 or obj 268 I think it has 419 HEAT pen struggles to a lot of hull down heavies,I know it's HEAT it does not get shell normalisation use a 4005 for example it's got 387mm of APCR pen but it still struggles to pen the current set of hulldown heavies about the Ho-Ri I don't know much about the Ho-Ri but I'm told it were capable of penning a fully hulldown Kran with its AP premium ammunition. there should be atleast a spot where you can shoot a fully hulldown heavy a weakspot(even if it's the size of a 60tp's cupola)that can be seen at any angle even if hulldown. It's crazy that it all revolves around heavies, I get this feeling that the win is so dependant on how the heavies would perform. They've been overcooked by WG giving them ridiculously strong armour with almost Medium tank like mobility it's crazy that the heavies are like this now, and tds are getting more and more armour the Badger is decently quick for the armour and gun it carries, 4k dpm paired with busted traverse speed of 50°(it can out traverse some meds or maybe even lights)a second is absolutely bonkers.

[acoustic estuary]

Can’t write for 10 minutes if you didn’t see.

Anyways, a tank doesn’t become independent cause it can 1v1, that’s not what it means, a Maus sidescraping against 2 dudes will lose cause it lacks firepower, there the need for a teamates. Let’s take kranvagn, so slow it needs a teamates to help it when he is out of ammo or when 2 dudes are against him. Every tank in this game somehow needs a teamate at some point, some less then others but they all do. Some heavies can hold their own but doesn’t mean they doesn’t need a team.

[teal crystal]

you simplified it, like many have mentioned here a winning team = Who has the most heavies

Heavies are so broken even a dumb incompetent player can carry their failed teams; Every other tank type actually takes effort into carrying but a heavy will usually just push and obliterate many as not everyone can penetrate the absurd armor

[stone drum]

Half of all heavies are not autoloaders... lol... their are 3 total proper autoloader heavies at tier X.
Amoungst mediums at tier X, only a single one is an autoloader, same for light tanks.
As for tds their are only two autoloader tank destroyers.

[tame temple]

Calibrated shells

[teal crystal]

prammo doesn't work if you have HEAT, even APCR and AP are gambling with RNG

your question about HEAT is one of a newbie, just quit while you're ahead, HEAT doesn't have normalization, also once it hits spaced armor no matter how small, it stops.
AP and APCR are a gamble, not always guaranteed because there is this thing called RNG seems you lack critical thinking as to why there is a range of numbers for both penetration and alpha
@acoustic estuary nub

[acoustic estuary]

Why wouldn't heat work? And apcr and ap still work. Your arguments are pretty stupid.

[novel ruin]

Sheri Missile armor = Paper It can get penned by t1 light the Ha-Go lol

[teal crystal]

like half of them have burst to trade against destroyers, it's absurd

[fair pebble]

What’s your win rate?

[teal crystal]

62%

[keen dew]

Whats your account name?

[acoustic estuary]

And battle count

[stone drum]

Destroyers have like 640 alpha, it's completely normal...

[stone drum]

Spaced armour doesn't magically stop all heat, that is something only uneducated players think, Spaced armour only reduces heat penetration. As you can see here.

[teal crystal]

yeah then it has to go through hull armor, 2 separate RNG checks which very likely stops HEAT 90%of the time

[humble depot]

Spaced armour reduces HEAT pen by a significant factor. The HEAT penetration jet is set off early, losing a lot of velocity and penetrating potential between the spaced armour and main armour. You’d need a really good HEAT round and a really small distance between the spaced and main armour to penetrate and cause damage.

[winged barn]

Yikes, the uneducated are doubling down.

[teal crystal]

ahh yes I am totally uneducated, my WR so low because I don't know my tanks and shell types, I forget one or two but I have almost all of them which is the goal of this game over stats

[unique scaffold]

=====D

[stone drum]

You were beating down and trash talking another dude about game mechanics (specifically how heat works) despite being completely wrong, yourself knowing nothing and you now look like a total clown and à jerk.

the only one crying is you mate, chill out.

@humble depot in most cases spaced armour can be defeated by heat given it's not at an extreme angle.

[teal crystal]

awww did your feelies get hurt, keep that out of this server dawg

lmfao cry harder dude, here let me get my circus themed tissue box

also isn't armor inspector outdated? stg their tank layouts are not up to date

@stone drum add me in-game, I really want to try it out then

[stone drum]

Armour inspector isn't outdated, the penetration stats it gives are largely accurate.

Sure, let me grab an alt.

[teal crystal]

so yeah I was wrong, I don't spam HEAT much outside of training rooms so I wouldn't have known

[wooden lynx]

I said the Ho-Ri because of the penetration values, the best in Tier 10 they said. It is the only TD capable of penning a hulldown Kranvagn and not a lot of people use it so I love the tank👍

I'm grinding it soon

[stone drum]

When you play Ho-ri you will find yourself often not even needing premium ammo... lol

[nimble zodiac]

Spaced armor is a nerf if it isn't like >30mm thick x-x

[clear shuttle]

guys heavies are op i cant pen the obj 260 on flat ground

[ornate warren]

😬😬

[main tulip]

268 and Jageroo are capable of penning the Kran turret as long as it's not using too much gun depression.

[ebon lynx]

How can you not pen the tank with terrible armor?

[civic pasture]

KV-1C very low for 6 lvl

[chilly crane]

KV-1C ?

[stuck acorn]

he probably meant KV-1s. In cyrylic you read a letter that looks like C as S, so in russian version of the game it's probably called KV-1C, even tho you still read it the same way

[ebon lynx]

Yeah, because the IS tanks in the russian version are written "ИC"

[novel ruin]

FV4202 and FV4005 armor is paper thin lol I can pen it with tier one lol

[tame temple]

Fv4202 is paper thin 💀

[stuck acorn]

so what?

[acoustic estuary]

It’s sarcasm to laugh at circus.

[main tulip]

KB-1C in Cyrillic, lol

[thorny timber]

Don't know about the 4202 though man,still can get slightly annoying

[ancient rampart]

4202 isn’t paper lol

[pallid flame]

Hey guys what u think About E25 and Scorpion G?

[silk root]

E25 needs dpm buff to be relevant, like the bp has they same and way more armor and consumables

[ancient rampart]

The E25 does NOT need a dpm buff
It already has 3000 dpm at tier 7
It’s also extremely short to the point you can park up against heavies and they cannot hit you at all
It’s also fast and very accurate

[tame temple]

E25 is fine agreed

[gloomy anchor]

E25 is fine as it is

[thorny timber]

The profile is so low that you facehug a heavy hull and you've already disappeared,not to mention the extremely high DPM it has

[twin egret]

How often do you find yourself doing that though? It's uncommon

[main tulip]

plus it's pretty hard to do without taking a significant amount of ramming damage

[twin egret]

Or returning fire

[stuck acorn]

It doesn't compensate for it's weaknesses at all. It's nearly impossible to use DPM on E25. Black prince is 100 times better.

E25 for me is a thing that should have the best DPM at T7 without any competition

[mystic gorge]

E25 is quite literally one of the most useless tier 7’s rn. It provides no advantage. M41D is basically an E25 but better in every capacity. It needs to get buffed in some way

[stone drum]

What if they just buff the alpha to like 180-190?

[acoustic estuary]

I guess a lower profile. Wow such useful, i know 🤷‍♂️

[stuck acorn]

if you keep the current reload DPM will go up massively. Better just decrease the reload to like 3.1s base and it should be fine. Around 3,5k dpm with all equipment with such a reload

[orchid geyser]

buff/rework obj 452k
this tank has many negative points, it has no dpm, the chassis is very weak, it has a high aim time and the penetration is a little bad

the only good thing about the tank is the turret that you can't always make it work, the mobility is good but not so much and the dispersion is low but the long aiming time somehow nullifies this

do you like the armor of the 452k?
play with st1, it does the same as 452k but better

like the mobility of the 452k? play with the is8, it does the same as the 452k but better

[mystic gorge]

IS-8 > ST-1 > 452K

IS-8 is honestly the most slept on tier 9 in the game. 2800 dpm with what’s basically a way more accurate IS-4 gun. They buffed the turret so now ur kinda forced to load gold. Essentially plays like an obj 260 but better in every way

[orchid geyser]

yes, is8 is good
unfortunately I can't say the same for the 452k
buff 452k wg 🥺

[humble depot]

The E25 needs a traverse speed buff. It can’t turn on the spot properly, which means it’s useless if you want to use the mobility to get close to someone.

[burnt venture]

Lately, WG has introduced several heavy tanks: 777, TL-7-120, 452K, VZ-55 (the entire line), 114 SP2, WZ-114 (the tier 9), among others.

All of these tanks share pretty much the exact same "downsides": terrible hull traverse, paired with terrible horrendous reverse speeds. Not a single one of the above mentioned heavy tanks has over 28 deg/s base traverse speed, nor does a single one of those have over 14kph reverse speed (and that belongs to the WZ-114, one of the slower tanks)

Outside of the two 114 variants which are supposed to be superheavies, ALL of these heavy tanks go forwards extremely quickly with class-leading power to weight: Well over 15 hp/ton. And they all have very decent top speeds going around 40kph.

It just seems that WG has basically settled on the fact that somehow, slow reverse and traverse is the way to go with rebalancing heavy tanks that are too fast. I guess there is some truth in that yes, SOME certain problems with overpowered heavy tanks in the past (AKA 60TP / Type 71) was that they went backwards too quickly or had bonkers traverse. But it's still pretty obvious that other much larger factors are in play (like HP, armor, and firepower) that cause these tanks to overperform.

The downsides they've given these heavy tanks don't do anything to address current issues with heavy tanks, the most problematic one being that still, mobility isn't enough of an advantage. These tanks have heavy tank armor + firepower on a platform still fast enough to push forwards and chase down mediums and light tanks at will. Even if they suck vs. heavy tanks, they still eat meds and LTs alive because of their forward speed alone.

Heavy tanks need to have actual downsides. These downsides are not only monotonous across like 10 tanks (since WG cares so much about "diversity"), they only serve as a minor inconvenience to tanks which are stupid good (777) and make tanks which are dogwater even worse for no reason

[stone drum]

Think you got it mixed up, IS-4 has what is essentially a nerfed IS-8 gun.

[teal crystal]

saw your profile, had a massive laugh

it was so funny I went into a coma for 12 hours

[acoustic estuary]

Cool.

[orchid geyser]

i still think the 452k needs buffing, it can be beaten by any tank
depending on tier 8 the 452k loses
a buff on chassis and dpm i think it would be enough

||if my english doesn't fail me i read this text right, i forgot that I can translate from english to my language💀💀💀||

[teal crystal]

💀💀💀

[pure condor]

GSOR 1008 should have an average speed buff

[stone drum]

Wouldn't that hurt it, as it would make the bad handling worse...?

[teal crystal]

it's a Charioteer with spaced armor, so not really

[stone drum]

Yeah, but it had .3/.3 hull dispersion factors.

[steel iris]

TL-7 also has a big tumor on the top and 7 degree gun.

[final warren]

I see so many people playing it terribly though. 95% of people don't know how to play it

[teal crystal]

still happy with the dispersion, makes it balanced

you already know I own like 90% of tanks, imo GSOR doesn't need a buff but ammo capacity wise for fun modes

[twin egret]

Why does the Super Hellcat have less gun elevation and depression than the regular Hellcat?
aren't they the same?

[acoustic estuary]

The hull is different

[winged barn]

Maps just favor heavy tanks.

Camo has minimal effect, as soon as you shoot, you get spotted in anything by anything.
There are what, 2 whole useful bushes in the entire game?
(The way that pc mainly balances out heavies)

Mobility would have to be nuked across the board for heavies for that to actually make a difference. Even slow heavies don't have to commit to one side because maps are so small. Alternatively heavies can just got to a central point and control most of the map from one position.

Try to balance heavies with accuracy? Makes no difference. People somehow successfully snipe with kv2s.

The other classes all want to work with range against heavies, but maps do not allow it.

[shrewd remnant]

For some reason an IS8 has been the first tank i clip with the two shot on the tier 9 Yoh in the last few games. There never seems to be a shortage of yoloers in the tank that want 900 damage to the face. I’m not sure how it will go when i grind it…

[drowsy plaza]

So like every other tank right?

[final warren]

There are other tier 9 heavies that have a lower floor than the is8. The e75 takes less skill than an is8, for example.

But yeah you're right, most people don't know how to play. If only WG had an easy to access, dedicated mechanics and strategy guide...

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly I think if people first saw how they ranked in tanks compared to the top 100 players in it, that might be more of an incentive.

[stone drum]

No I don't know, I haven't even opened your profile

[stone drum]

They are the same, just WG modelled them différently.

[nimble zodiac]

I don’t see how a speed buff hurts accuracy. Imagine you get to a position faster, then the time saved by movement can be invested into aiming. The cases where it may hurt is if there was an unexpected enemy spotted, or if you’re trying to move around as you dump the clip, which is something GSOR shouldn’t do anyways

[twilit flare]

it's literally js balanced

[stone drum]

still gsor has incredibly bad bloom, and low acceleration keeps that somewhat bearable. if they are having problems with mobility, the speed boost is always available.

[nimble zodiac]

You have the choice not to move as much .-.
The time saved by the speed buff would certainly account for the aiming time needed

[teal crystal]

good question, WG logic meme

[silent apex]

Is just me or is obj 777 is like IS7

[compact nymph]

That’s probably just you

[stone drum]

IS-6 stock gun could use a small buff. it would be nice if it just had abit more dpm.

[final warren]

Like something that says "You are in the 50th percentile" or "You are rank 1200 out of 1400 in the STB"?

[burnt venture]

for GSOR, maybe not. That tank has that high bloom, low aimtime gun handling formula which basically doesn't matter on movement because you won't be shooting OTM anyway, and when you stop you'd be aimed in.

For mediums that shoot on the move, a mobility buff definitely hurts gun handling, especially if gun handling also got a nerf. What kills tier X medium guns more than the nerf to base dispersion was that it was compounded with mobility buffs, the biggest examples being 4202, 62A, and Progetto.

For tanks with regular gun handling formulas which almost always shoot OTM, off of a peek, or at least shoot the first shot OTM, mobility buffs compounded with accuracy nerfs will hurt it more than just an accuracy nerf.

But mobility buff by itself should be fine, you'd hardly notice the bloom increase most of the time

[stone drum]

What if mediums had some kind of mechanic to help improve their accuracy?

[pure condor]

I just asked for GSOR buff so we could get to positions/retreat easier

[silent apex]

I think it is

[nimble zodiac]

I mean… worth the 20 second reload

[stone drum]

if VK72.01k was ukrainian
Nice shot and good placement, but what exactly is the balance point?

[unique scaffold]

Why is the E5 even a thing? Before the DPM nerf at least it was unique in that it could spit out lots more damage than others at its tier but now what?

[leaden flare]

still a decent tank
the dpm is lackluster but the gun and armor work still very well in randoms

[pallid flame]

Ur thoughts About scorpion G ? Is it worth ?

[honest knot]

Often overpriced but still a very popular tank in the community

But yeah su130 pm is a great tank too.
You trade the turret for the camo and the lower profile

Both are good options in my opinion, it really depends on your playstyle

[stuck acorn]

i prefer SU-130PM over it

[pallid flame]

What is more worth jgpz E100 or Ho-Ri?

[rotund cipher]

nerf Italian tank destroyers tiers VII-X because they’re so unbalanced, with armor dpm and all

[pallid flame]

Yep i agree with that..they hot Armor, turrets, strong cannons like they shoud be nerfed

[orchid geyser]

it's bad, just playing with it to know

[twilit flare]

its balanced,

[jade cargo]

fderol8#3244 has been warned.

[drowsy plaza]

On the low end. It’s a situationally OP vehicle that loses most of its advantages when low tier as it can be penned even hulldown. It’s not awful though and is more a case of so many over buffed heavies making it look less than stellar.

[rapid basin]

Mino is extremely bad needs buff

[verbal igloo]

No it doesnt After they gave These "loaders" a free buff because hey they were so weak

[regal iris]

Is there a reason why Caliban’s HESH is putting out the lowest dmg to Type 62 paper tank. And yes I was direct hitting from the front and sides, not tracking nor splash dmg

[thorny timber]

It's alright but boring,as in it needs a buff on the long run to stand a chance against other strong/broken heavys or nerf all the heavies altogether but we know that it isn't possible

The pre nerf e5 would've been considered as a strong/brain-dead heavy,according to the current standards but that just doesn't justify thrashing it to the trenches of hell and then making it passive

[stone drum]

Max roll for 183 is 1600... so either you got ammoracked or your outright lying.

Minotauro isn't half as bad as you say, plus most of your points are irrelevant...
@rapid basin if you legitimately think Minotauro is bad, play foch 155 or 263.

Bro actually used mad games to justify his arguement... 🤡

[rapid basin]

Look at the vid and it wasn't an ammo turret would of blown off

[acoustic estuary]

It was mad games.

[scenic apex]

Grille can be ammoracked but its turret doesn’t fly off
Not all turreted tanks have their turret fly off in a ammorack

[marsh belfry]

183 cant 1 shot mino unless ammorack
your vid is invalid because its a recording from mad games
the 183 can use their ability to gain dmg boost

the reload on the last shell is intentional because its a ,,reserve'' shell

@rapid basin kran doesnt have reserve shell its just a normal autoreloader
your argument sucks bro

[rapid basin]

Kranvagen has a waaaay les reload and still is a reserve

[queen geyser]

nop

[silent apex]

Um just to ask is sending videos illegal here

[novel ruin]

Lol I just bullied an elc bis with a Matilda tier 4 lol

[jade cargo]

masterbeast100p#0 has been warned.

[rapid basin]

Wierd how I can't show demonstrations

[novel ruin]

WG add The ToNk when and give KV-2 HESH when

[scarlet thunder]

I think one of the next monthly premium pass tanks should be based off of MT-25, SU-100, or KV2

[cobalt matrix]

i think there should be no premium pass at all

[drowsy plaza]

Armor Inspector can be used for images to show penetration etc. we have rules against videos for reasons.

[rapid basin]

It was a vid of mino bring 1 shot by a 183? that's can't be done in armor inspector? And it wasn't an ammo rack
No indicator or turret pop off

[drowsy plaza]

Oh shocker an Ammo Rack. How do you think that’s new or interesting

[nimble zodiac]

We're invalidating your 183 one shotting point because it is not possible to take a tier 10's full HP away with one shot in a normal match, unless an ammo rack or fire occurred. 1625 is the max roll, no tier 10 has HP that low

Mad games? Send me the video in DMs

[rapid basin]

Then how did it happen 🙂

[jade cargo]

josef6560#0 was banned.

[stone drum]

Still have nightmares from 183 one-shotting my foch though, ngl.

[river valley]

Still have PTSD from getting oneshotted by a SU-152 in my AC 46... that was 3 years ago...

[marsh belfry]

pretty sure i explained it on my reply before
in mad games the 183 have the ability to sacrifice some of their hp to gain temporary dmg boost on which explain why it can 1 shot you with its boosted hesh dmg

so no, 183 cant 1 shot mino on regular match

@rapid basin that comes down to the 183 itself, mediums and lights has equal or lower hp than mino and do you not take them into account?
if you even let your mino get hit by 183 hesh thats more of your fault for being unaware because you are unlikely to get heshed from the front in mino

[rapid basin]

Still imagine being at 275hp after 1 shot.
Also WG lower this stupid slow down timer to like 20s theb10m is ridiculous some channels have it at 8h its so annoying

[stone drum]

AMX AC 46 isn't that bad anymore tbh, but no matter how much they buff it they can't change how ugly it is.

[sonic cypress]

What’s the best 8,9,10 tier. No matter is it heavy/light/medium/destroyer.////// so which one would u recommend on 8/9/10 tier to have good expierence and fun

[stuck acorn]

There is no best T8/9/10 tank in the game. There are few better ones on each tier, but there is no clear best tank. There were some very rare cases when a tank was so broken that it could be called the best tank at it's tier like pre nerf charioteer, T49 A, annihilator and smasher upon release etc, but all of these vechicles are long nerfed/removed/powercrept to the point where even if they are still good, they aren't clear #1 anymore

[sonic cypress]

Can u check my message on vechicles discusion and help me with pick?😄😄

[thorny timber]

It keeps changing so that there's no accurate answer,for eg if 53tp was the best t8 heavy right now after a few years it'll be someone else because it'll either get weak for the meta or other stronger tanks get released or the old ones get buffed

[torpid lotus]

#revertnerfstogrilleline

[leaden flare]

dont revert nerfs to WT

[leaden flare]

I mean yes removing spall liner would fix all the issues
But that'd be too simple 😂

And all the skill avoiding plebs would cry that their tanks would get he'd

[stuck acorn]

Yeah, i know, it's like the only reason why HE exists in the first place though. A.k.a counter lightly armored vechicles.

But i know, that would make garbage players do bad in tanks that aren't designed for them to play on, so we can't have that.

For me Spall liner can exist in the game, but it should decrease splash damage, not post pen damage and be available on all tanks. It just makes 0 sense rn

[burnt venture]

In all honesty though Grille deserves to be in this state.

The tank has received multiple buffs to its consistency, especially at range. It has 300mm AP pen now, with the addition of reticle cali, plus you cannot punish it at all with HE for lower caliber guns. It also got a traverse buff, the first one in years, so it doesn't really have issues defending itself at closer ranges either.

Also despite the nerfs and everybody saying it's terrible, it's still the second most popular TD by games played, so these nerfs certainly didn't hurt the playerbase by that much. Yeah, it's no longer having like 2 million + games, but that's all in all better for the game.

These paper TDs that camp in the back of the map deserve to be weak, because that reduces the number of players willing to play it. Camping is super popular because it takes little effort, and it causes problems with TD matchmaking among other things. If you buff the Grille like WG did to the 183, all we will see is more of these tanks in the MM which means more lopsided games where one team has actual armored TDs and the other has two useless brainlets sitting in spawn.

Grille and 183 just deserve to be horrible tanks. Those tanks just add nothing to the game whatsoever except stop gameplay from happening. Less 183s and Grilles in the MM = better experience for everybody else, and that's a huge plus in everybody's eyes because the majority of Grille and 183 players are pretty trash in the first place

[faint sandal]

nerf smasher and anhililator?

[stuck acorn]

remove reticle cali
remove spall liner

Buff the actual tank

I find it funny to see how grille went from being faster than majority of mediums to being slower than some heavies. (60 kph -> 45 kph)

I think it would be nice to see it in it's original state, where it had 640 alpha with less DPM but with great speed and actually good traverse

[burnt venture]

I mean then you go tell WG that superconsumables are useless. Because the 50%ers absolutely love them, nothing will change

[twin egret]

And a better traversable turret

[stone drum]

Because automod said it was "spam".

[granite pebble]

This would actually make the tank insanely fun tbh

[patent helm]

doesnt that mean you can facehug red heavies and he their turret roofs
i can imagine it working on some maps like himmelsdorf, would be funny

[stone drum]

Why would anyone let a VK.168.01P facehug them? It goes like 20-25kph and you can track and damage it at the sametime.

[void siren]

one problem I have with it (quite simple)
it needs more dispersion - that's a nuclear bomb gun several times more lethal than the caliban's, and should have even worse gun stats to compensate

[humble depot]

The WZ-110 is awful. It’s slow, has an average gun, and has bad armour. Here’s how I would change it.

Mobility:

Top Speed - 40 -> 45km/h
Average Speed - 28 -> 32km/h
Hull Turn Rate - 21.18 -> 30.00°/s

Firepower:

Alpha Damage - 310 -> 320
DPM - 2054 -> 2121
Aiming Time - 4.7s -> 3.5s
Dispersion at 100m - 0.344 -> 0.324

Armour:

Hull Front: +15mm to UFP, +5mm to LFP
Hull Sides: +20mm
Turret Sides: +10mm

These stats reflect 100% crew, using both foods, improved fuel, and no equipment.

[dawn wigeon]

Honestly the M103 needs its 155, the m103 in real life has a 155

[neat crescent]

Oh don't worry, all tanks at t8-7 suck, they need buffs to match the higher tier versions or fight on even grounds

[drowsy plaza]

Lower tier vehicles aren’t supposed to be able to fight a higher tier tank 1:1 in a fair fight…. Only a moron tries to fight on open ground regardless of tier.

[twin egret]

I carried a tier 8 tourney battle in an FV201 A45. Came out with top damage despite being on the front line. Only game I played in the tourney

[teal crystal]

+1

[main tulip]

it's really not more lethal at all, unless you somehow value the premium AP more than the Caliban's HESH

[void siren]

I do, in fact, value the premium ap more than the caliban's hesh

[stone drum]

No the High alpha + decent dispersion combo is the selling point of the gun.

The gun is also not more lethal than caliban, with relatively low pen requiring careful aiming to be successful.

@dawn wigeon yeah... no.

@void siren Yeah, E-100, 60tp, and VK72.01K "sell their soul" for their alpha... lol. Also kpz 70 isn't bad, only monkies say that.

[void siren]

even tier X tanks sell their soul for a good alpha gun
the kpz 70 sucks relative to the other tier 9 premiums because it got its decent alpha gun

you're giving a tier 8 the accuracy of the kpz!
and the alpha

[neat crescent]

Thats not what I meant, it doesn't make sense to fight out stuff in the open as you said, what I mean is, the "balance" of tiers stats wise, in between tiers and in the same tier within different classes, has always made it difficult to pick tank 'a' over 'b', x tier over y tier tank, because you know you will face difficulties compared to going route a which everyone picks over route b with your playstyle, just because there isn't a good sense of balance between tier 6-8 and a smaller but still visible one between 8-9

[granite pebble]

No, the T30 had a 155 and was an experimental tank.

The M103 had a 120mm and was actually produced.

No clue WHO told you it had a 155mm, but you seriously need to stop listening to them

@void siren Do you see the pen on that gun? The it having decent dispersion and soft stats exists to counter the fact that the pen is painfully low

[stone drum]

Agreed, the accuracy looks really good until you look at a heavy and realize the only thing you can pen is the cupola.

I gave it that superb aimtime & dispersion to make it a different spin on the traditional heavy formula, allowing the Vk.168 to wiggle, angle, and push with minimal penalty, but the horrible turning dispersion allows it to be extremely easily flanked/circled or defeated in a brawl/hulldown scenario.

He also declined to realize that missing a single shot in VK would effectively cut its dpm down by a third though.

[teal crystal]

btw this would be good if the dispersion was a little lower as it already goes slower than the T28 and T28 Proto with 1,000 less dpm and massive weakspots already on the tank which will never get fixed unless they want to do the VK 100.01P release mistake where they gave it enough armor when angled enough not even Tier 9s other than destroyers were able to penetrate it

[stuck acorn]

What? VK 100 was always pennable by T9 tanks lol. It had stringer armor indeed, but not that strong. Even T8 tanks with gold could go through it quite easly back then

@teal crystal No lol. I researched the tank as soon as it was released and i remember the nerf it received in 5.9 update. It was stronger back then, but it was still only 208mm of raw armor on the hatch. If you loaded 265 pen gold which is a standard for T8 heavy you could blast through it with ease

It was not nerfed because it could stand against High levels of pen easly. It was nerfed because it had weakspots so strong that it was basically imprevious to nearly all T7 tanks and low pen T8s

[teal crystal]

not when it released, that thing was tough, even gold had issues

[cerulean flame]

CC64 should be weakened,when you drive ht in the rating and meet cc64 you are powerless to resist🤮

[nimble zodiac]

Don’t engage a hulldown SMV? ._.

[stuck acorn]

Well while this is a viable point, it doesn't make SMV less broken.

They should just straight up remove the single shot gun or nerf DPM on it to the ground. Armor itself is not a problem. It's combination of armor, gun depression and single shot gun

[stone drum]

It's .344 dispersion maxed with roughly 4.5-ish aimtime.

[stuck acorn]

Just as i said, the armor itself is a key point of the line so i think it should be left alone. I don't like impenetrable hulldown beasts either, but i guess the gun is way more of a problem.

Just straight up remove the 410 alpha single shot/replace it with some smaller alpha single shot/reduce the DPM on it by like 500 at least

[cerulean flame]

Maybe HP should be lowered from 1350 to 1150🤔

[stuck acorn]

No. It is not the way. It will just stay as cancerous as it is, Making it survive one less T7 shot will not make it any weaker when it can just in the hulldown without taking damage.

The root of the problem is gun. This is reserve shell autoreloader line. Why did it receive a single shot gun in the first place? And even if it's suposed to have this gun for some unknow reason at least make it an alternative, not a must have

[torpid lotus]

Ty Circus

[cerulean flame]

You are correct, the single shot gun should be removed, which also means that the 105mm single shot gun of the CC56 should be removed, but I think it's worth it

[stuck acorn]

yes, either remove or nerf them a lot. This will not only make these tanks more balanced, but also make them more like the rest of the line

[cerulean flame]

But this is not going on in the short term😂Short-term pain still inevitable

Now many people choose the Minotauro line because the original intention is basically not the Minotauro, but for the 120 single-shot gun of the 8tier cc64,that is unofficial intent

[remote swallow]

The Meganta from battle pass or whatever it’s called is OP for it’s tier. It’s amour is too much. Can’t even pen it.

[stone drum]

Did you actually just call the magnate op???

Yeah... what tank are you using?

[remote swallow]

Or maybe it’s my skill issue.

LGT APCR

I dislike this chat cool-down very much.

[tardy radish]

Can't block E100 bullets

[thorny timber]

Just use prammo then,problem solved

[stuck acorn]

you use one of the tanks with least amount of pen in it's tier and you complain that you don't pen things?

If you have such a problems at T7 already i adivse you to drop all the light/medium tank lines you currently grind and go for something that doesn't require any skill what so ever like E100 or IS-7

[remote swallow]

The tank also shrugged off the shells from the SU line.

[stuck acorn]

which tanks exactly? SU-100, SU-152 or SU-100M1? If it's SU-152 then it's obvious, this thing has less standard pen than most medium tanks. If SU-100 i guess you might have hit a more angled part, but it's still reasonable that it bounced off. If SU-100M1 or any of the T8 tanks in these lines, then i have no clue where you aim lol

@remote swallow FIrst of all, it's magnate, not magneta. Second of all, this tank has a weak armor profile. It's just troll for very low pen guns. SU-100 had 175 standard and 217 gold pen if i remember correctly. It is decent for T6 tank, but not a lot for a standard of T7. Not to mention that it is not very accurate and you often get trolled by shooting some weirdly angled plates. that's just how this game is. Bouncing once or twice from a tank doesn't make it's armor good. For example i bounced of SP 1C few times in my career. Does it mean that it has good armor?

No. I'm sorry, but at this point all i can really say is get good. Just get yourself some easier tanks to play, and get better at the game.

[remote swallow]

SU-100, it shrugged off APCR at the sides. Not even hitting the tracks at all. And the Magneta doesn’t even have a lower glacis to pen so it’s hard to shoot it if it’s facing you.

[white spear]

Do you think italian TD deserve a slight nerf ? Even though it takes extra long time to reload, these tanks are able to dish out immense burst when they need to, around 1400 for the tier 9. Plus they have excellent frontal armor. This absolutely anihilate the "glass canon" french line spirit, cause these have better guns, damage and armor in every way !

[queen geyser]

u will find out that the italian TDs are the most controversial thing in this channel, where people ask for nerfs and some people ask for buffs

[old heath]

@stuck acorn

[stuck acorn]

As i certianly agree that some italian TDs need a nerf, it's paradoxally not because of burst, but because of not using burst a.k.a single shot guns on T7 and T8.

the best way is just to delete these guns and add some small turret cheek weakspot to make them penetrable, but it should be small enough to work reliably only at close ranges. (this applies to T7/T8 only)

Rest of italian TDs deserve close to exact opposite, a rebalance, but more things should be buffed than nerfed. It would be great if WG could remove the most toxic factors from them and then boost their performance a lot in order to balance them out.

First of all, nerf lower plate of mino. It is just extremely dumb. 2nd of all slightly reduce the gun depression on T9. 13 degrees is just a bit too much, it makes it hard to buff in other areas. 11-12 should be still more than enough

After that we can get into buffing. I'd reduce the reload on the reserve shell, i know it is meant to work that way, but over 20 seconds is just too much, especially on T7 and 8 tanks that don't have that much alpha. I'd make it around 13 - 14s for a T7, 15 - 16 for T8 and 17 - 18s for both T9 and T10.

After this is done, it would be nice to see their gun handlind buffed as well to make them just more comfortable to play.

And the last but not least - make Turret of T9 and T10 stronger. Somebody may say the are strong enough, but no they aren't. These tanks unlike T7 and T8 already have properly balanced turret armor, with actual weakspots. T9 gets easy to penetrate as soon as it looks even slightly in any other direction and T10 has a cupola that is penable with standard. With this already in mind, everything else on their turret should be completly imprevious to all fire, regardless of where it's coming from and what type of ammo enemy uses. It's as simple as that

[nimble zodiac]

This is just about the best you can get from Magnate when sidescraping against SU-100. Once you load HEAT, the sides give in.

[teal crystal]

[torpid lotus]

[neat rain]

The obj. 268 needs an accuracy and dpm buff. The grille is better than it rn and the grille sucks too.
The grille needs a big camo buff and it’s 640 alpha. The alpha nerf was good for the t8 and 9. But not for the grille.

[ancient rampart]

268 doesn't really need any buffs
It has 2900 DPM which is more than good enough
and with refined gun it has .310 dispersion which is also more than enough

[void siren]

it needs a massive shell velocity buff

[ancient rampart]

that I cannot comment on since I haven't played it so Idk how it is