td2-build-advice

[gloomy spruce]

Yeah nego is inherently crit starved and needs as much crit as you can dump into it. Strega is too.

Unlike a certain new gear set that reverses all the logic..... (cough cough Tipping Scales)

[hexed steppe]

Similar story with bs on nego too

Ceska should be your highend, if not using an exotic, grupo should be your other highend.
Coyote and overdogs both solid nego choices

[vernal bison]

i got 3 red cores and 3 blue cores an the sub stats or whatever they are called are all chc with crit hit damage mods

my fenris has chd and chc

and mask has chc and chd

[hexed steppe]

One big thing about nego is transfer. Crit based transfer, but you really want to maximize damage to get the highest transfer

Rarely used with bluecores

[vernal bison]

i do think that the gloves would be better than coyotes because you could theoretically tag all the enemies and then shoot the lowest ranked one and get bonus damage which would the bonus damage transfer to the others or does it not work like that?

[subtle bluff]

Yes but if you're new you're not gonna notice gonna be able to prioritize target super well. Either or works.

[vernal bison]

i think i had a stroke reading that sorry

could you rephrase

[gloomy spruce]

He was saying that if you are new to the game and unfamiliar with the NPC types, then you might hit the wrong npc and miss out on some of the extra damage. Making good use of the overdogs requires you to be perfect in your target acquisition and recognition to be effective.

Coyotes offer a more broad and general crit and damage bonus based on range.

[vernal bison]

ah gotcha i’m not new to division so that wouldn’t necessarily be a problem for me

[hexed steppe]

this is specifically why im using overdogs on my own nego setup. it really doesnt require "perfect target acquisition", if youre spamming spawns its melting everything within the spawn. you can test the damage difference within range, i was seeing like 300k difference in transfer when hitting lower ranked target.
one thing to remember, and something that gets overlooked... just because overdogs as amping damage on low ranked targets, doent mean you are hitting for much less on higher ranked* by losing a minor brand bonus or extra crit from coyotes... totally worth the trade off

[gloomy spruce]

Admittedly, I need to try them out more. My first impressions of them were underwhelming, but I have heard great things about them.

[hexed steppe]

definitely need a good run through. i liked them on ts, but once on nego i havent really wanted to run anything else (dps wise). i think because its multiplying the benefit a bit with the transfer

only problem is 4 agents and 1 overdogs 😂

[vernal bison]

would you recommend a ceska or fenris chest piece? i’m still thinking which would be better from a damage standpoint

[hexed steppe]

i think ceska. if youre set on keeping the blues it might be close tho, but worth testing out with ceska to be sure

[vernal bison]

also is there a chest piece with perfect obliterate worth chasing or better to go for a brand and recalibrate to obliterate?

[hexed steppe]

no perfect. ceska and grupo obliterates will not goto waste tho

try glass out too 😈

[vernal bison]

that sounds pretty fun, i’m just trying to use a build to play with my dad because strikers and st elmo’s makes everything feel too easy and gets boring quick

[hexed steppe]

when you get bored of dps you throw one of these together , js

[onyx sage]

i have an explosive build too

[rich cosmos]

How good is catharsis for pve

Or not worth building into?

[solar sable]

not worth sadly

[rich cosmos]

Sadge

Like is it at least decent? Or just genuinely not worth even building into

[gentle lichen]

On average it's a 22.5% WD increase with a healing cloud and status clear

Take it how you want it

I will say use it with a bulwark build

Might be something i'll do actually a catharsis intimidate ad rush tempest build

Though that's very much a pvp build rather than pve

[tropic burrow]

hey guys im almost done with my OD tinkerer build. what are the best lmgs for that build?

[solar sable]

m249, mk46, mg5 & gr9
From best to worst IIRC

[subtle bluff]

It's all in the guide.

[tropic burrow]

how can I access the guide?

@solar sable thanks

[solar sable]

pinned messages in this channel

[tropic burrow]

im sorry where's that?

[subtle bluff]

You on mobile?

[tropic burrow]

yes Android

[solar sable]

clic the channels name on the top of the screen and go to Pins

it's the first pin, under the name of Spreadsheet 2

[tropic burrow]

there's no pins?

[solar sable]

nono, in this channel, clic here

[tropic burrow]

oh ok thanks a lot man!

[solar sable]

no worries

[dire lagoon]

I see what you guys are rocking. I’m struggling because I want to play some pvp but get smoked. Can’t decide if weopon damage builds or max armor build are the most beneficial?

Somewhat new so how do I get exotic weapons to put into my classes?

[meager fog]

For PVP the standard is Bighorn Regen build, which is in the pinned Google doc in this channel

[glad heart]

Target weapon type for the exotic you want, in Countdown or Summit.

[meager fog]

If anything ever changes regarding meta or best in slot, that Google doc gets updated

[subtle bluff]

Well we try too. 😵

[red island]

can someone tell me who the f build this

the fact that its expertised is sending me

[red island]

can we talk also about the 24 grenade launcher ammo ? is that a new bug abuse ?

[mint axle]

One of the modifiers gives you unlimited specialization ammo for few seconds but it also allow you to have like 300% more of it's ammo capacity when it ends.

Speaking about modifier, there is one that does literally what the final assembly does in the div1, was it so hard to just make the final measure have that here? 🤦‍♂️

[red island]

wut, i use that modifier and i never had that happen

[mint axle]

Did you kill a lot of npc while it was active?

[red island]

yes

it awards additionnal time per kill so i killed a lot

it is just the grenade launcher ?

cause i was running minigun

[mint axle]

Weird, this ammo thing happens to me all the time with GL and tip of spear (I know this set is bad, let me be happy blowing people up).

[red island]

i like tots too dw

[mint axle]

Well, I didn't test with the other specs because they are kinda meh with NPCs

[red island]

gunner is goated in leggo tbh with this

[red island]

well i tried a few times with tots with no luck

[flat halo]

Hey guys what’s the next best non exotic assault rifle next to the st Elmo’s?

I want to use my boris, so I need a really good assault rifle

[tardy nacelle]

@meager fog managed to get it

recrafted it into this first try as well, gotta say my exotic luck been insane lowkey

[red island]

lexington

shield splinterer is a good choice too

[flat halo]

How do I get those?

[flat halo]

How do I get those guns?

[tardy nacelle]

You can't get Lexington atm

[loud pine]

shield splinterer is from the hunter keys in Washington, if you have neither just use a police m4

[tardy nacelle]

Which mods can drop for shields? Can't find the list anywhere

[clear flame]

anyone able to help with a LMG build? I'm new and still understanding it

[meager fog]

Very nice.

[meager fog]

Police M4, Famas, F2000 are the best high end ARs

[gloomy spruce]

Clearly a pic of a very imaginative Ninjabike build maker! Their dedication to making Ninjabike work with Measured Assembly, the Pestilence, Petrov contractor's gloves, and empress is truly out of the box thinking!

At SHD 20,000+, they must absolutely know what they are doing!

To answer your question: Who they are is a true Visionary!

[gentle lichen]

:3

[gloomy spruce]

I think this is a pvp pistol build designed around the visionaro, legatus, and D+H. Designed to boost pistol weapon damage and destroy human targets when the shield breaks. The shield itself is a tier 6 and a nightmare to break. Its pistol has the equivelent of more than 6+ red cores, so it will hurt. The optimal range on that pistol makes it like an AR with the brand set and mask buffs. Likely rolled crit as well.

Since vigi is pointless in pvp, the ninjabike backpack is strangely a good choice!

If played properly, that build is likely frustrating to deal with in conflict or the DZ.

I don't do pvp much so I really wouldn't know tho.

[gentle lichen]

don't forget optimal range makes this pretty good even at range

it was used in conflict by a clanmate

[gloomy spruce]

I am sure it melted a lot of people at mid to long range expecting a lumbering weak tank.

[gentle lichen]

i will have to use it myself so affirm its effectiveness though i have fire rate on my 30 exp tempest lmao

[cerulean smelt]

ouch

[magic pilot]

You can get someone to drop you shield splinterer

[cerulean smelt]

guess i should consider myself lucky?

[magic pilot]

Eh

[cerulean smelt]

i know, only drop i got and i was just like "f it, i'll use it for now"

[magic pilot]

Mine has DTA

[gentle lichen]

ill just wait for the reconfigure blueprint to come out

[cerulean smelt]

i'm debating that honestly

[silent storm]

Do all Picaro's Holster drop with 10% weapon DMG or am I just very unlucky?

[hoary sail]

always like that

[meager fog]

Picaros Holster was nerfed, but the UI wasn't changed because reasons.

[silent storm]

So it's can't go to 15% WD anymore?

[hexed steppe]

Nope. There is an odd 15% still floating around, I think from original drops... but 99% are nerfed to 10%wd

[silent storm]

I am wondering if I had one and crushed it because was like well this is garbage and now I am trying to make a build where it would be nice and I messed up

Does shield count as deployed skill for cooldowns on Overclock?

[red island]

overclock doesnt reduce cd of skills that are active, only thoses that are in cooldown

[silent storm]

You and allies within 15m of your deployed skills, gain +30% reload speed and reduces active cooldowns by 0.6 each second.

[meager fog]

Active cooldowns, not active skills

[silent storm]

So if my shield is out obviously I would be within 15 of it

[meager fog]

IE, any skill that is actively cooling down

[red island]

it wont be on cooldown, so no

[silent storm]

So would my other skill get the cooldown?

[red island]

but if it break, you will get it back faster

[red island]

if its on cooldown only

[meager fog]

I think I see what you're asking.

Does a shield count as a deployed skill, to reduce allies cooldowns if they are close.

[red island]

lets say your mate goes down, pop his rez hive, get up, his cd will be reduced as long as he stays close to your skills

[meager fog]

The answer is yes

[silent storm]

ok

[red island]

its not a great talent tbh but it has uses

[meager fog]

If your shield is out, allies within 15m of you will gain the effect of Overclock

[red island]

its mostly for premade teams that want specific set up

[silent storm]

So effectively have shield out with Overclock would be a 70% skill haste?

[red island]

not really, but it would still be a lit

[meager fog]

Scratch what I said.

Shield does NOT count

[red island]

its more like 60% cdr, not skill haste

[silent storm]

figures

[meager fog]

Although it is a deployed skill, it only seems to work with stationary skills

[red island]

it only work with hive, drone, and seeker iirc, maybe decoy

and turret ofc

[silent storm]

So no Shield pistol bvuild with 30% reload either

[red island]

if that was possible everyone would do that on shield with ar

[silent storm]

I wanted to try Kard Custom Shield build with a super fast BFB

All HSD

Guess I can nix trhat though

Shield will activate Kinetic Momentum though right?

Because if I can't do a fast BFB I can do a big one

[onyx sage]

"deployed skill" generally means skills that count as separate npcs

aka skill proxies

[simple haven]

overclock only works with things that stay still
and I don't even think it works with smart cover

[silent storm]

Can Eagle Bearer drop for me in DZ if I never got it from raid?

Been doing DZ for the last 3 hours and only exotic drop I got was Pestilence. Zero Exotic AR drops

[solar sable]

Unless you want to deal with that 0.024% exotic drop in DZ, then go for it.
But raids are so much better, with a 10% chance on the Raid Crate/Box/whatever and 1% Bosses.

[silent storm]

Streamers getting multiple exotic drops a run and I only get an LMG in 3 hours while AR is the focus... my luck

[solar sable]

I don't think TL affects exotic drops in the DZ...
Anyways, you will ALSO have to deal with getting any possible exotic while farming for them in the DZ. Sum that & drop rate ans you will most likely just search for a Raid Group on other discord servers.

[silent storm]

Why wouldn't TL affect exotic?

DO people MM raids?

Haven't tried it since I came back honestly

[solar sable]

As I said previously, I don't know if DZ exotic drops are affected by TL.

No, it's not viable to matchmake nor do I think it's possible to. Most, if not all people LFG in other discord servers (as previously stated) looking for experienced players if their only goal is getting the Raid exclusive weapon.

[silent storm]

This is the only Division discord I have, is there a LFG Discord like Destiny has?

Used to have voice channels here if I am remembering correctly but they all seem to be gone

[hexed steppe]

for raids i would lookup gcrock community. its pretty big and regularly raids

raid matchmaking only covers discovery, afaik. none of the exclusives are available that way

[silent storm]

What does that mean?

like story mode?

[hexed steppe]

raid has 2 modes. discovery is minimal mechanics and kindof a waste of time

[silent storm]

oh

[hexed steppe]

normal is full mechanics and not available in matchmaking

but do a discord search for gcrock and youll be in good shape to raid. have a striker and maybe highend dps available and listen to your raid leader for instructions. theyll bring you through everything

[shy willow]

TL doesn't affect exclusive loot drops

Eagle bearer, bighorn, ravenous etcetera

[silent storm]

So basically I just wasted 3 hours in the DZ farming for them? Atleast I got a load of flags to upgrade stuff

[hexed steppe]

now you know, and knowing is half the battle™

[silent storm]

G.I.JOE🏳️‍🌈

[hexed steppe]

Good Job🇳🇱
looks like you didnt fry all your braincells in college 🍻

[shy willow]

It's like a 0.024 percent chance for a drop

It's easier to go to raids and get them proper

[dusky sky]

why tipping scale not favor bullet king as u dont need to reload and can stack

[gloomy spruce]

BK has low damage. It fires fast, but sadly the damage isn't there.

You want something with a sweet spot of strong damage and a slighly longer fire rate.

[subtle bluff]

who said that? BK is good on TS.

[dusky sky]

looking at the build guide

[subtle bluff]

We don't say it's bad nor BiS.

[bright raptor]

Imagine if you spent a fourth hour, got it, and then got magdumped in the back of the head and the gun swiped before the extraction chopper arrived

[bright raptor]

literally the "you must not like waffles" argument over Bullet King not being namechecked

[dusky sky]

m249 is prefered over exotics ?

[gloomy spruce]

Exotics are not always the most powerful or best choice

A lot of times it comes down to build and personal preferences

Some exotics can be great for what you are using them for and others are just a novelty

In the case of Tipping scales, a lot of people prefer the Iron Lung, Pestilence, Blue Screen, other named items or regular high end items with specific talents.

[amber crater]

TS + GR9 with Frenzy 🙂

[dusky sky]

any mod that doesnt need to save ?

[hallow arch]

Any thought on this build I found on YT?
https://youtu.be/wHyJeILuxoI?si=Lj2ZvgOI_nFUfL2I

[subtle bluff]

First off someone saying a build "God Mode" is dumb...

I close the video once I heard that and saw backfire. Same content creator crap.

[dusky sky]

should i tinker into CC until 60% ?

[subtle bluff]

Since TS buff CHD yes you want to be at CHC cap.

[solar sable]

CC ≠ CHC 🙏

[subtle bluff]

CC is normally Crowd Control

[dusky sky]

is M60 replica better than normal M60 ?
why is the stat so different ?

[onyx sage]

look at the attributes

[subtle bluff]

Only showing Half the context doesn't help us help you.

[amber crater]

the replica has grade 12, which means +12% WD, the mag size might come from weapon mods

[bright raptor]

You optimized the replica to max and are surprised it has better stats?

[dusky sky]

how much difference is that 5% ROF ?

[subtle bluff]

Depends.

[dusky sky]

756 vs 780

[subtle bluff]

That's not right.

[dusky sky]

the pic from the guide is 780, M60 base is 750

[subtle bluff]

There you go

[amber crater]

you need to check the mods too

[subtle bluff]

Also Base m60 is 600rpm

[subtle bluff]

and Global Modifiers.

[dusky sky]

oh, modifier gives 25% rof

[amber crater]

600*1.25=750 🙂

[tropic burrow]

guys im running tinkerer OD what is the best combo other than sadist and pressure point? + how do I know when pressure point is working?

[solar sable]

Sadist + Killer is chef's kiss

[tropic burrow]

really? what about sadist + streamline?

[solar sable]

it's good but not enough

[tropic burrow]

so killer is better than pressure point?

[solar sable]

for solo play yes

[bright raptor]

use a weapon that does not trigger the Tinkerer talent, check your Sadist weapons per damage numbers, equip a Pressure Point weapon and then compare the damage numbers again with both damage talents active

[hallow arch]

Just got the vile mask, any builds I can do with it?

[red island]

ep

[meager fog]

EP burn is 🔥

[subtle bluff]

I still need a grab a cool clip of it.

[hexed steppe]

bluescreen also not listed there but is phenomenal on ts

[subtle bluff]

It's in the Gearsheet.

[hazy steeple]

Oh the new copy+paste system on the spreadsheet is awful, bad google.

anyway, it's best to check the spreadsheet for most % questions.

[simple haven]

can someone explain why everyone is going with some combination of sadist/eyeless/ignited/pressure point on tinkerer mask

Are people relying on the seasonal actives to apply conditions for the damage amp

Say cheese/sanitation?

[subtle bluff]

Ongoing Directive gearset

[simple haven]

That makes sense with Sadist, but i've seen several people recommend eyeless/ignited, which doesn't make half as much sense

[gentle lichen]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh whuts the best non tinkerer ongoing directive build since i dont have it

[meager fog]

It does when you're using the seasonal modifiers. Sanitation sets fire to enemies with Crits, hence Ignited

[subtle bluff]

Don't know about the rest that's a first. It's not good probably from content creators.

[simple haven]

So it is the seasonals as I thought #td2-build-advice message

It feels a little unstable/unreliable but I guess if all you're chasing is optimal paper DPS that's fine

[meager fog]

Not sure why you've put Pressure point on there, it's one of the recommended ones since you're applying status with every shot....

[simple haven]

only when sanitation is up/enemies were just in range to flash with say cheese

[subtle bluff]

Optimal DPS.... Tinkerer is only meta on one build the rest it would sub optimal

[meager fog]

No...with OD every shot applies bleed...

[simple haven]

better in the case of OD at least

[simple haven]

I'm talking about seeing builds that are some gimmicky Ignited/Pressurepoint w/ tinkerer

[subtle bluff]

If the talent isn't like 90% uptime it's not optimal.

[meager fog]

Anyone who isn't using Sadist is using the build entirely wrong. That much is a fact. Sadist cannot be substituted

[simple haven]

Not just youtube bait but also goofy-ahh builds I'm inspecting in Countdown/matchmade heroics

[subtle bluff]

Again it still sounds dumb.

[simple haven]

I'm not disagreeing lol

[meager fog]

Inspecting randoms is a poor way to judge what "everyone" is doing.

90% of them are either farming for expertise or don't know what they're doing

[simple haven]

Yeah, but I want to understand their reasoning, even if it's bad

[meager fog]

And the ones with poor build likely got them from an idiot youtuber

[simple haven]

"What goes through the head of someone assembling this"

[simple haven]

I dunno man, if shit builds are statistically more common than "hey, that's a good build", I think the term 'everyone' applies more to the former than the latter

the goofy/bad builds are certainly more common in pub countdown/heroic matchmade than the crisp clean ones

[meager fog]

Youtubers use catchy words like "GOD MODE O/P DEVS DoN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS HACKED BUILD"

Because it attracts those who can't think for themselves.

That's all there is too it

Then they put some half assed build together that works in a single situation and pretend it's amazing for general gameplay

[simple haven]

I mean, yeah; even I have never liked OD because it fails to apply any of its bonuses to mechanical targets

meanwhile, every time there's a new mission with a warhound boss

[meager fog]

OD is a fantastic build......

[subtle bluff]

Figure out why some builds are bad is lead to hurting yourself.

[meager fog]

A well built OD is amazing to have in a group

[subtle bluff]

Only sadist doesn't your HP ammo still hits.

[simple haven]

Too many targets in this game that can't be bled

[simple haven]

Yeah but at that point both talents on gun and your tinkerer mask have 0 returns

[meager fog]

You get a permanent 50% damage amp....which still applies to robotics

[subtle bluff]

Killer?

[simple haven]

against the enemy that is the stiffest dps test in the mission

[subtle bluff]

Why we dont suggest it in leggo.

[simple haven]

where are you getting 50% amp to robotics from

you'd get the hollowpoint ammunition but no returns from your weapon talents

or are we just assuming we rock the 0 skill tier EMP pulse because it's useful enough in these missions

[meager fog]

Hollowpoint ammo gives a 20% damage amp at base, 50% if using the chest. It doesn't have to cause bleed the AMP still applies.

All you lose is the sadist buff and pressure point if you're using it (I personally run frenzy)

[simple haven]

huh, and I thought most people eschewed the OD chest in favor of a separate multiplier (obliterate?)

[subtle bluff]

Also if you're running emp sticky that just strong in general.

[subtle bluff]

HP ammo is amp...

[simple haven]

Like I thought the OD chest didn't give as good returns as a ceska/grupo chest (extra brandset bonus + minor statline, and you get a separate multiplier)

[meager fog]

Most people should be running chest, kneepads, gloves and holster for OD

HP ammo is a seperate, MASSIVE multiplier...

[gentle lichen]

50% amplifier

it is very good

[subtle bluff]

The only way to beat is using PGC which no one does that anymore since the OD Chest buff.

[simple haven]

i could've sworn there was a whole breakdown showing that the x0.2 x0.2 (xbetter crit) outweighed the x0.5

on top of it being more consistent

[buoyant perch]

no 1.2x1.2<1.5

[meager fog]

You're getting the cal;culation wrong, Crit damage is additive, AMPs are not

every amp is a seperate multiplier

they do not add together

The reason amps are so powerful is because they have no diminishing returns. They're all seperate

[subtle bluff]

0.o

[simple haven]

yeah, 1.44<1.5, but then youhave better crit on top of that (by a non-trivial amount, as you're on gearset and thus only have 1 minor core and no brandset per piece)

[buoyant perch]

you still need 4 pieces OD, the other 2 pieces can be whatever you want

[gentle lichen]

non crit damage is still in the equation though

[buoyant perch]

brand bonus is irrelevant

[simple haven]

that's not what's being compared in this situation; the chest isn't adding a separate x0.3 multiplier, it's very specifically an additive bonus to the amp (x0.2->x0.5)

[meager fog]

It's increasing the AMP, which is multiplicative. You're adding more Crit damage, which is additive

[simple haven]

I mean at the end of the day I'd just have to pull out the calculator

[subtle bluff]

It's 1.2 x 1.5

[simple haven]

Getting 14% extra CHC into the build is non-trivial

[subtle bluff]

Uh?

[buoyant perch]

and you get that how?

[subtle bluff]

What bud?

[meager fog]

The calculations have already been done, hence why we're telling you that you're wrong 🤣🤣

[simple haven]

that's what you get packing a brandset chest over the OD chest, on top of Obliterate?

[simple haven]

If you have them I'd like to see them, the last time I looked at it the brandset chest won out

[gentle lichen]

you can still get that brand which is ceska on your bag

[simple haven]

unfortunately it was on a napkin >_>

[buoyant perch]

your math is wrong, simple as that

[meager fog]

If you've ever worked out that Grupo chest beats OD Chest for damage then your calculations are entirely wrong.

[simple haven]

okay, I'd like to know if someone has a comparison before I go do all the math again, because that feels like it'd be faster than getting the drops optimized in game

[subtle bluff]

Like the guide has it all.

[meager fog]

This. Literally. Its already been done and tested to death

[subtle bluff]

Ya don't remind me.

[simple haven]

Like what this is is:

1. someone has the number comparison for me already, it'd be nice
2. I go do the number punching in calculator myself
3. I have to go build it in the game

[gentle lichen]

im doing conflict but i have some setups ill be able to show

[simple haven]

I'd like to settle this at step 1 with some better evidence than "dude trust me, that's what guide says and everyone does", I'd like to see the proof is all

[buoyant perch]

go read the guide

[meager fog]

Here's a fact for you:

OD chest is BiS for an Ongoing Directive build. Full stop, period, end of story.

[subtle bluff]

Can you give us/me the build we're talking about?

[simple haven]

You do realize you can't answer my question of '-why- is OD chest BIS' with 'because it's BIS'

[meager fog]

It gives higher damage than any brandset (excluding PGC which has downsides)

Its quite simple 50% damage amp <<<<<<< 13% grupo chd bonus...

[buoyant perch]

we already give you the math 1.2*1.2<1.5

[simple haven]

Tinkerer w/ Sadist+Pressure point, Ceska/Grupo brandset chest w/ obliterate, OD in all other slots

[meager fog]

Awful.

[simple haven]

But that discounts a non-trivial amount of crit

[buoyant perch]

you don't get that out of thin air

[simple haven]

Which is what I'm scratching my head over, because the last time I read a wall-of-text analysis about this, it showed that crit was more consistent AND higher

[meager fog]

13% grupo bonus is a TRIVIAL amount of crit damage lmao

[simple haven]

But it's not just one line, it's two

because brandset pieces have an extra minor core in them over gearsets

[subtle bluff]

So OD BP?

[meager fog]

So? 25% additive CHD does not in ANY WAY beat a 50% damage amp....

[simple haven]

And you can't just dismiss that with "uhhhh multiplicate > additive" because then you wouldn't have to weigh things like the very big bonuses of Streamlined (even though they're additive)

[meager fog]

Streamlined is a bad talent.....

[buoyant perch]

just give us your "special" build

[meager fog]

I did the math on this to prove it just a few days ago. Its a noob trap.

[simple haven]

#td2-build-advice message

[simple haven]

Awesome! May I see it?

That's literally what I'm asking for and y'all seem way more interested in tautolgies for answers than ponying it up

I'm at work right now so I can't open the necessary resources, is why I'm asking

[subtle bluff]

So again.... OD BP?

[simple haven]

Yeah, it'd have to be

[subtle bluff]

Have you read what that does?

[buoyant perch]

ceska backpack with vigilance or wicked gives way way more damage

[subtle bluff]

Vs OD Chest?

I call OD Tinkerer Meta build for a very good reason.

[meager fog]

He doesn't understand that AMPs are better than additive damage. Regardless of anything else

[subtle bluff]

Even without amp.

[meager fog]

That's what its boiling down to

[subtle bluff]

There's more numbers

[simple haven]

This is false

[meager fog]

This conversation is over, you're wrong.

[simple haven]

if you had a 1% amp it would not be as good as 300% weapon damage in most builds

You can't just tar all AMPs as objectively better, the %s matter

I don't mind being wrong, I mind being shown 'proof' that is basically no better than religion because it's decsribing something qualititaitve without going into the numbers and the process

[meager fog]

Something that multiplies by EVERYTHING ELSE, is better than adding more damage to another bucket.

You cant argue that, its a fact.

[simple haven]

"amps are better" is not a useful argument in lieu of the quantities involved

[simple haven]

Do you realize why this sentence is misleading?

#td2-build-advice message

It's similar to why Tipping Point has a real place next to Strikers

Strikers is an Amp but it's harder to get a high bonus and keep it in many situations, meanwhile Tipping Point can trivially get and maintain its CHD bonus, which, despite being "a d d i t i v e, oh nyo", is so big it still ends up being a higher bonus in many situations

[simple haven]

That's what bugged me about the breakdown too tbh

[subtle bluff]

Um..

[simple haven]

Because the OD backpack is effectively an empty slot LOL

[subtle bluff]

Uh?

[subtle bluff]

How does this bug you?

[simple haven]

Way more than the "if you see here, the obliterate bonus, and the crit from being a brandset, actually weighs to be heavier than just additively increasing an existing amp multiplier"

Because then you should be putting more dps into your backpack talent, no?

[subtle bluff]

Obliterate is only 20% TWD.

[simple haven]

It bugged me because the breakdown I saw was arguing in favor of using an oblierate chest

[subtle bluff]

Vs OD that's make 20 go to 50%

Someone is dumb and doesn't know how to count.

Or doesn't understand

[meager fog]

Right math time so this can end. Enjoy the reading.

[gentle lichen]

i honestly forgot your point

[simple haven]

Forget the crit, the arragnement of the pieces doesn't make sense to begin with ecause you end up with an empty backpack talent (effectively)

[simple haven]

I wanted to see a breakdown of the damage that wasn't just "lol amp better because it has the word amp on it" and got sidetracked about that

[subtle bluff]

Stop... This is getting confusing.

[gentle lichen]

it is good because it is an amp and because it is a 50% amp

[urban latch]

Where do you see the extra crit coming from? Both setups will still have two non-OD pieces

[gentle lichen]

the nearest thing that can get to it is perfect glass and that's provi you need 2 pc of it to match ceska

[urban latch]

The only difference to compare is the chest talent from OD vs obliterate. You can ignore everything else since it will be the same

[simple haven]

Yeah, I started scribbling this on a napkin as I'm looking at the discussion on another server

and that point in favor, which was argued fairly passionately, doesn't make sense because bot hbuilds should have a brandset piece in it period

It's not like the build could rock two exotics or would for no reason use a fifth OD piece

[urban latch]

What....

[subtle bluff]

Remember this, almost any build is solo heroic and below is viable but does not mean it's good

[simple haven]

It feels like someone was doing bad accounting and left an extra multiplier on one side during their comparisons or something

is what I'm getting out of this

[urban latch]

Your the confused one here

Everyone else is on the sane page with the math

[meager fog]

Calculations are simplified.

100,000 base WD. 120 crit damage base.

For OD chest calculation, with vigilance BP talent.

100,000x(1+1.55)x(1+1.2) x(1+0.5)x(1+0.3) = 1,093,950 damage.

For grupo oblit chest:

100,000x(1+1.3)x(1+1.45)×(1+0.2)×(1+.0.3) = 796,250.

[simple haven]

I'm the one reading over two discussions and trying to ask why

[meager fog]

Now its done, bye bye

[gentle lichen]

use this formula and hit us back up when you compare both builds

[urban latch]

You can simply way more. Nothing changes on this comparison except the talents being run. A grupo piece can be run on the chest with obliterate or anywhere else

[meager fog]

That's max hit calculation, on average will be less for both but OD chest will ALWAYS win

[simple haven]

Not even sure that's necessary, Raucey pointed out a very good point; there's a suspciously big amount of crit on the left side of this compared to teh right side

[urban latch]

Its the exact same

[simple haven]

and it was explained away as "because you use a brandset piece here"

...but both sides have 1 brandset piece, yeah

[urban latch]

Where are you getting different amounts

[simple haven]

"This guy" (in another server whose math I'm reading)

[urban latch]

Where?

[simple haven]

Private community server like 15 people lol

i'm not linking you to it but some people got passionate about div2 builds at random

and I asked because something about the presented build "felt wrong" to me

[gentle lichen]

so you're talking to us about another build we have no context of?

what sort of compartmentalization is this

[simple haven]

I've said what it was like three times

[subtle bluff]

We're not asking just seems nuts we're debating over something else.

Thru you.

[simple haven]

It was arguing in favor of going for an oblierate chest "because you get so much more crit it doesn't matter that you take -30% amp on OD"

...but forget the OD chest talent, forget the fact we now have a useless OD backpack talent, where is the crit even coming from

As raucey said both builds have exactly 1 brandset piece in them

[meager fog]

Your entire argument was:

Grupo chest beats OD chest.

I literally just proved this false, it can end now

[simple haven]

I'm not interested in whether or not you're right, I'm interested in -how-, but okay go off king

The takeaway is that someone did some really bad accounting and used it to prove a spurious point

[gentle lichen]

based on the damage calc?

that was used above?

[simple haven]

I mean if I go to this guy and say "look at your numbers" he has a big block of numbers, so he'll tell me "well I did do the numbers"

but, his numbers don't make sense; he has a giant pile of unexplained crit

[meager fog]

Just to add more context.

In order to MATCH the OD chest damage amp, you would need over 203% CHD.

[simple haven]

that as I do napkin math, I don't know how it even got it on the left side of the build

[gentle lichen]

why not do me a favor and give us a picture of that build

[simple haven]

So it's not 'you did the math wrong' it's "your build is erroneous"

[urban latch]

Tell the to set aside everything that's the same and only look at the differences they are comparing. That's all that matters.

[simple haven]

He has like a mystcial seven piece or something

[meager fog]

I showed you how...

#td2-build-advice message

Best bet would be to send the guy here and we can explain to him why hes wrong

[simple haven]

Thanks Raucey for pointing out the simpler routing than getting bogged down in the minutiae

[subtle bluff]

Give them one of the builders websites

[simple haven]

I am attempting to build this guy's, well, build, and it's just nowhere near what he's getting

[meager fog]

Hes either being buffed by someone/something else. Or Cheating then lol

Common tactics for content creators is to create a crappy build, go in a group where you're being buffed by everyone else, set it to challenging and crop the screen down then pretend you're awesome

[subtle bluff]

Give them a builder like https://buildstation.app/

[cosmic dew]

can you show the build? I can try and help

[cosmic dew]

if it helps you understand to hear it in a different tone-

the OD chest is a passive and amplified(multiplicative) bonus that has minimal uptime as compared to obliterate requiring more effort to keep up and less damage

The game is in a place where you really don’t need Ceska nor grupo sets or set bonuses to have desired CHC and CHD. You can get 60/200 pretty easily via rolled stats or gear mods(depending on how you build of course.)

There are multiple guns now that apply status effects without having to run skills to do so-I personally main an Iron Lung OD build that applies fire and blood consistently, although I haven’t had a chance to run tinkerer yet as I’ve been on hiatus. I also main a bluescreen build that constantly applies every status that gun has plus bleed and fire

You’ll want to prioritize wicked or vigilance on the backpack but ultimately I hope this helps explain your original question a little

They’re using the status effects to stack different kinds of damage is all; you could datamine the math but ultimately it’s just passive vs non passive to me as the OD set is lethal on its own with little to no effort

If you have any other questions feel free to ping and I’ll help you with them, I’ve build crafted for years and can’t stand YouTubers who lie about them or people who can’t cordially speak about them as that has been my main experience with the game and community

Also to verify,

Does the tinkerer talent apply to legendary weapons? If I’m running pestilence, it will use the talents from my other equipped weapon on it?

[hexed steppe]

How is od chest considered minimum uptime

Bleed ammo makes itself if using the build correctly

And no, tinkerer one works on non named, non exotic weapons of the same type

And only applies to the primary

[gentle lichen]

if your dps can't kill even a named under 10 secs with a full (preferably lmg) mag idk what will

[hexed steppe]

Fr. Isnt od chest basically like running sacrifice with no downside?

[gentle lichen]

30% amp vs 50%

[hexed steppe]

Well chest is an added 30 for self

[gentle lichen]

it also is flexible to allow tink without using the od bag

[gentle lichen]

30% to team but 50% to self

[hexed steppe]

20 to team, 50 to self if use chest

So chest is 30% in this consideration

[gentle lichen]

yeah i forgot which one was the base amp without chest

[hexed steppe]

So od chest is same as sacrifice with no downside... not sure how oblit is even being considered in the above

Granted I only read about 5%

[gentle lichen]

it was a dumb conversation cause apparently everyone was speaking to a carrier pigeon not the actual person who made that build

[hexed steppe]

That sounds about right. Probably a yt build or some bs... was a ss of the build posted?

[gentle lichen]

#td2-build-advice message

[gentle lichen]

it was someone trying to make sense of something someone else was posting on another server

[cosmic dew]

Thanks

[gentle lichen]

◀️ ▶️ ⬆️ ◀️ ⬆️ ◀️

[cosmic dew]

because it’s basically a passive and permanent bonus once bleed is triggered vs the other players desire for obliterate

[hexed steppe]

Od chest ads 30% amp > oblit adds 20%twd.
Once you have bleed ammo its like comparing perfect glass to oblit.
Don't know what else was needed

Just run ceska/grupo on another slot

[cosmic dew]

I think he just wanted clarification on the math from someone who understands it better and likely didn’t care for the approach that was taken

as someone who’s terrible at math I can understand that

[hexed steppe]

as long as you have bleed ammo you have that 30% amp from the chest. Its not really temporary.. if you lose bleed ammo you really need to consider a different build... right?

Only considering the self amp

[meager fog]

It was horrible to think about and wasnt worth the attention it was given, honestly

I even did the math to prove the difference in damage (it was like 300k damage per hit difference)

[cosmic dew]

are you in a clan by any chance and if yes can you say what tag

[meager fog]

[AWM]

[gentle lichen]

there isnt crossplay in this game btw

[meager fog]

^

[hexed steppe]

The math doesn't really need to be complicated at all.

Like example which is stronger. Glass or oblit?

[cosmic dew]

That’s fine I wanted to know what clan not to join if there was

[hexed steppe]

I mean this is a known

[meager fog]

The person we were talking to didn't understand the difference between adding more CHD and a multiplicative AMP

They thought that adding Grupo instead of the OD chest would add more damage because CHD

[hexed steppe]

They weren't really adding chd. They were adding twd if it was still the oblit consideration

[meager fog]

It was the Oblit Grupo chest. Their argument was that the CHD was a big consideration

[hexed steppe]

There is gonna be another spot to put grupo

[meager fog]

Could use Wicked grupo BP but eh, Ceska is a better choice honestly

[hexed steppe]

And this was also to use tinkerer right

[meager fog]

Correct

Mathematically, you'd need at LEAST 203% CHD to match the OD chest AMP lol

[gentle lichen]

in reality the two builds only difference was one with od bag and other with od chest
one has shit damage the other has stupid amounts of damage

like not even a brand difference or anything just bag and chest talent

[hexed steppe]

Yeah it always ceska bag, od chest and dealers choice if using tinkerer or coyote

But op could build them side by side and range test it for themselves. It seemed a silly argument when a quick comparison will be self evident and they will come to the same conclusion

I'm the last one to do the math for it but I trust the ones here that put in the work

[meager fog]

#td2-build-advice message

Even just simplified...the damage difference is massive

[hexed steppe]

Yeah, just funny. 13%chd>+10%amp

Basically all I saw 😂

I'm even stupider from this...

Why chest over bag again 🤦‍♂️

+13%chd-10%amp > + 18-25%twd.. sorry

-# Ill see myself out

[simple haven]

The confusion starts when you get shown a hugely long, difficult-to-parse pile of modifiers and math symbols

"I know I sound crazy but look at this math" (nickelback.wav)

And it's easy to go "huh, well I guess if you mathed it out... sure?"

But then you have that moment of realization when you go back to looking at the bigger picture: "okay but if I have 3 apples, and I give away 1 apple to my friend, how the -heck- do I end up with 4 apples"

In this case the guy had a bunch of extra crit stacked onto one build and literally didn't have a backpack talent on the other

So it was a garbage comparison that got obfuscated by "if you'll just look at all these numbers"

intuitively I knew it was wrong on some level, which is why I came in asking about it

But the answer of "well AMP is always better than other sources" got rolled over by "But I did the math, and the math says this"

(the math started from a build that physically can't exist)

[tardy nacelle]

Which active modifier do you guys like on the striker build? I was thinking of using say cheese cause I don't like banshee taking up a skill slot in solo play over shield and reviver

[meager fog]

Ultimately it's your choice, due to my aggressive playstyle i LOVE Sanitation

[tardy nacelle]

that one was my second choice tbf haha

[meager fog]

It's very strong, and sets everyone on fire. Everyones a winner

[onyx sage]

if he instead showed only the delta (changes) from 1 build to another it would have been much easier. idk how he does math irl but working off of deltas when it comes to builds is much easier, the parts that don't change don't need to be considered

[rich cosmos]

I take back all my hate on birdies backpack, its peak

Still needs something else tho (make all backpack exotics have all 3 core attributes)

[hexed steppe]

if your questioning something its definitely a solid move to bring it here for debate/clarity, but do us all a solid and bring the actual claim in question along with you.. either as a copy pasta or screenshot.
this is a pretty solid community that operates in good faith when it comes to giving truthful information

[subtle bluff]

Or get them to use a build if they don't want to get in game.

[cerulean smelt]

there's even this handy tool in the pins here. go there put in the build and link the html here

[subtle bluff]

AND I had that post updated with all the good info!

[gray coyote]

@rich cosmos In what context would you use the birdie backpack instead of something better ?

curious about that

[rich cosmos]

You would be shocked how often people die or have awful builds in legendary

[gray coyote]

i understand. It's in case the teamates suck :). Otherwise the standard BTSU+ perfect opportunistic is still better for a healer support build

[subtle bluff]

I just swapped it on.

[rich cosmos]

Im ngl birdies has been way more fun vs that, yeah its worse objectively but its more fun imo and better for bad teammates

[subtle bluff]

I'll use different if you can't heal them enough then it's time for something else.

[gray coyote]

@rich cosmos thx for your answers.

[sour smelt]

What goes good with a stoner LAMG

[subtle bluff]

Builds are mostly generic not needing specific guns for them.
Also the context here is fairly vague on what's being asked.

[hexed steppe]

tipping scales, ongoing directive both favor lmg

probably start there

[cerulean smelt]

this is what i use it in

[dusky sky]

what is the targeted stat for HOTSHOT build ?

[solar sable]

HSD & Weapon Handling

[dusky sky]

for m700 the talent is for headhunter ?
if u land body shot, headhunter turns into headshot but u still trigger determined to get bonus HSD ?

[subtle bluff]

No. The otherway around.

[dusky sky]

wat other way ?

[hexed steppe]

After first headshot kill determined will chain body shots as headshots

[fiery gust]

It takes 1 initial headshot kill to proc Determined. Then, yes, the rest will be counted as headshots.

[hexed steppe]

With caveats

[solar sable]

M700 has Determined.
Vest has Perfect Headhunter.

[subtle bluff]

Being blunt.. Reread both talents Headhunter and Determined.

[dusky sky]

isnt that what i said ?

[rich cosmos]

Make the stay cheese modifier into an exotic

[rich cosmos]

I don’t want it to go away

[fiery gust]

Could have been in a broke English sense lol hard to decipher, so we clarified a little.

[dusky sky]

triggered headhunter turns bodyshot into headshot while determine gives u bonus HSD from bodyshot

[onyx sage]

determined does not give you any hsd

headhunter is the one that gives bonus damage for headshots

[fiery gust]

Determined simply counts any hit as a headshot after you get the first headshot kill.

[dusky sky]

oh i mixed between two talents

[onyx sage]

_ _

the biggest thing you might also miss is you still need 1 actual headshot kill to get determined first

[hexed steppe]

You said something about triggering extra hsd. It doesn't.
You also need the first headshot kill or determined doesnt proc

[dusky sky]

oh for some reason i havent even pick swapping talent yet it has another talent selected
i read the description without reading the talent name

[onyx sage]

lol

you're going in the tinkering screen when you don't have to also

[hexed steppe]

This 👆

[dusky sky]

i was trying to tinker, maybe i shouldve maxout HSD
now i cant cuz optimized

[onyx sage]

nah changing talent is the right choice here

[dusky sky]

the gun already has determined tho

[onyx sage]

oh then lol

for most guns you do want talent changeable

but if you're always gonna use determined then yeah something else would be better

[subtle bluff]

I guess I should update the MMR guide too.

[fiery gust]

I'd probably just a different weapon. I wouldn't even use the M700 to begin with. 😂

[onyx sage]

but even then farming a high roll m700 won't be that hard anyway so it doesn't really matter anyway

[onyx sage]

yeah i hate it too, white death for life

[dusky sky]

what do i use then?
it was the 1st gun rec from the guide

[fiery gust]

I prefer Handbasket now, but SRS A1 and SR-1 are still great.

[onyx sage]

i mean you can't go wrong with it

[fiery gust]

These are also more newbie friendly.

[dusky sky]

it was almost perfect but i gotta swap talent

[onyx sage]

but the thing is you have a lot of choices from there, use the model 700 and see if you like it

[onyx sage]

just farm another one

[dusky sky]

lul, now whitedeaath is 1st rec

[onyx sage]

i wouldn't rank them like that

[fiery gust]

A lot of it is personal preference. You'll have to find what you like.

Personally, I wouldn't use any of those listed besides maybe the 1886 and only in a close range run and gun, mostly solo scenario.

[onyx sage]

just because it's listed first doesn't mean it's best

[dusky sky]

kinda sad it doesnt ahve blueprint

[onyx sage]

it does if you farm reconstructed cache

[dusky sky]

wat is that

[fiery gust]

There's one for uhh an SRS A1 I think.

[subtle bluff]

This needs updating we do not really have them ranked but I am putting into order incase some think of it like that.

[dusky sky]

speaking of, just got one from last run
why is it newbie friendly ?

[fiery gust]

Mag fed, fast reloads.

[dusky sky]

i mean reload is not a big deal with hotshot no ?

[fiery gust]

The damage you lose over the other bolts isn't even worth considering them lol.

[fiery gust]

You'll probably still miss some tbh. I mean, unless you're some god tier sniper that plays FPS tournaments.

[onyx sage]

sometimes you will miss and lose hotshot buff

even the best speedrunners do

[dusky sky]

i feel like i should run hotshot backpack for safety

[onyx sage]

no lmao

[fiery gust]

And if you get pushed from playing aggressive, you're going to want to reload fast.

[dusky sky]

so how do i farm that ?

[fiery gust]

Descent or Retaliation. That's probably not something you'll want to count on short-term. There's a lot of blueprints in the pool. Chances of getting a specific one are very low.

[onyx sage]

just do retaliation

[dusky sky]

what about SR-1

[fiery gust]

It's great.

Close to the same guns tbh. Not much difference.

[dusky sky]

same dmg but less mag

[fiery gust]

Slightly, yea. I've used both on different characters. They're nice.

[dusky sky]

what about Handbasket ? retailation too ?

[fiery gust]

Loot goblin only. And only when he is dropping seasonal items.

That's my favorite now tbh. Just feels nice not unscoping. 🤣

[rich cosmos]

But no seriously it should be an exotic we need more sources of blind

[dusky sky]

dam, kinda weak right now
with maxed headhunter

[solar sable]

those numbers don't matter

get a headshot kill and then get another kill with Determined active

[subtle bluff]

Ya that doesn't count your end damage with HH

[dusky sky]

it is already maxed and activated

[solar sable]

those numbers don't matter x2

don't pay attention to those, pay attention to the ones on your crosshair

[dusky sky]

oh

[fiery gust]

That's more like it.

[solar sable]

there ya go

[dusky sky]

what is the optimal stat i should aim for ?

[onyx sage]

that number does not include headhunter bonus

[subtle bluff]

You shouldn't worry about the number itself.

[onyx sage]

and yeah don't worry about it for now, the actual damage number is more important

[patent fossil]

The 'damage last hit' number in the range is limited by the hp of the target, I believe

[onyx sage]

you're right

[fiery gust]

Good catch.

[dusky sky]

the only weakness for sniper build is robots

[solar sable]

nah not that much

if you kill them just wait until you get the kill confirmation

[obtuse crystal]

True sons gunners are the most annoying tbh

[dusky sky]

wait, bodyshot robot will count as headshot too ?

[solar sable]

helmets are a true nightmare IF you can't hit your next shot

[obtuse crystal]

If’s a elite or purple it could take a few to finish can get pretty annoying imo

[fiery gust]

If it kills in 1 shot, yea. Gotta wait til it blows up, though.

[hexed steppe]

red bar hyena rushers will be your kryptonite

warhounds and such do spend your headhunter buff. only determined gets reprocced , youll have to restack to your full 21-28+ mil headshots after

[dusky sky]

trueson machine gunner the same, almost anyone with a helmet

[hexed steppe]

considering they spend half their time laying down, theyre a lot easier to pick up on the second shot

[meager fog]

Yes. As long as you wait for it to explode it will pr0c determined but not HH

As LD said, rushers are your worst enemy.

Chunga aren't bad, just smash the helmet, then proc HH again somewhere else to finish them off

[rich lotus]

I am looking for a build for doing legendary solo missions with the Lexington ar left shotgun and the tempest pistol

[subtle bluff]

A build is 1/2 of equiation for solo leggo mission. General strikers is what is recommend.

[rich lotus]

Ok I have a strikers build

[rich lotus]

Ik it's not great tho

[gentle lichen]

Lose the turmoil

[solid hound]

Anyone know if leveling expertise in shields increases active regeneration, holstered regeneration, or both? It just says "+1% Regeneration"

[subtle bluff]

Active

[strong cave]

My guy just expertise it to 30 already

🤌 the shield is begging for it

[subtle bluff]

I don't use it anymore tho.. I put down the Hornbreaker build.

[light dome]

Should I do a striker build with my eagle bearer?

[subtle bluff]

Strikers works with almost weapon. The higher RPM the better for stack building.

[lilac rampart]

If I use the tinkerer and 3 pcs hotshot with 2 hasburg is that better than the normal determined build? Was planning to use streamline on the second gun

[subtle bluff]

What "better" in your terms?

[lilac rampart]

I just find it annoying that if I do land a headshot on first shot doesn’t instantly kill an elite

So I was wondering if that would enable me killing elites right away

[subtle bluff]

idk what your build is so test it in the range?

[lilac rampart]

Copy

[subtle bluff]

To note the Standard Hotshot build with m700 to WD should do like 6.9-7.3 mill on there first shot.

[uncut willow]

what is the meta build rn ?

[subtle bluff]

Striker

[meager fog]

4pc Strikers, coyotes mask, ceska oblit chest. St Elmos AR primary

All red, all CHC to 55%, then all CHD

[solid hound]

TS with tinker and double GR9 seems to be up there too, seeing lots of people run that.

[subtle bluff]

It's not a meta its works.

Tinkerer isn't a really meta.

[meager fog]

Meta stands for "Most effective tactics available"

That is still Elmos, Coyotes, Strikers

[solid hound]

i always assumed it was what everyone was using and was best. i've been gaming for 20+ years and never knew it was an acronym lmao

[meager fog]

TS is strong, not saying it isn't, but its still not as effective as Strikers. It will take some nerf to dislodge it

[meager fog]

Alot of people dont realise its an acronym to be fair lol.

Its why I always find it funny when people claim 2,3,4 or 5 different things to be meta when by definition there can only be one meta in Div 2 lol

[subtle bluff]

Overdogs is about to take the spot.

[meager fog]

Possibly, overdogs with Strikers mask.

I haven't tried it yet but its on my list as soon as I've optimised my Overdogs

I think it'll be stronger for those who can think on the fly, but for those who struggle under pressure I think Coyotes would possibly be a better choice

[subtle bluff]

I just finished doing a heroic I can run through with the standard striker. Later today I'll do one with other dogs and see how it compares.

[subtle bluff]

I think it could make even if not focus at it.

I was also thinking for OD vs Tinkerer since that can do more too.

[meager fog]

Overdogs is for sure very strong, but takes some learning to use and means you have to learn to prioritise targets in a different way (which goes against the previous advice given)

Might be counterintuitive at first

Ill be interested to see your run though, make sure to tag me

[uncut willow]

thank

[meager fog]

@subtle bluff just something I was thinking about quickly, you might know.

Does turmoil double dip with overdogs?

For example, If I hit the lowest rank, and the split hits the lowest rank, will that get the 30% AMP from the first hit? Or will the hit be amped by a further 30%?

[silent storm]

What makes this kit better? DMG seems really low maxing out around 1.1-1.2 mil shots

[simple haven]

Meta is not an acronym at all, that's why people "don't realize" it; because that's not the evolution of the term

Assigning the phrase "most effective tactic available" is a backronym that persists because it seems to fit nicely, when in fact "meta" comes from Greek, meaning "beyond"; the information and world and strategy that only exist outside of the game itself. Human nature dictates that a lot of metagaming boils down to working out effective strategies, but the term covers many other situations that have little to do with optimization or achieving victory.

An example of "metagaming" that has nothing to do with being 'most effective (tactic available)" is predicting that you must be nearing the end of a dungeon in a session of D&D "because there's only 43 minutes until the DM has to go pick up their kids from school". You are using things that exist outside of a game to make predictions or influence your decisions within the game.

[obtuse crystal]

You shouldn’t use od for status it’s more like a bonus tbh you should be using it without the bag and have a ceska one with wicked on it and then if you want overdogs a od mask

[silent storm]

So ditch the Golan mask?

[obtuse crystal]

Yes and the od bag for a ceska one with the wicked talent on it

[meager fog]

The bleed on OD is ONLY to proc Sadist. It's a byproduct of the hollowpoint ammo which gives a 50% damage AMP when using the chest.

[simple haven]

Metagaming sometimes gets thrown around as a "dirty word" but in reality it applies to a ton of things. Choosing a gun because you like the sound of it, is technically metagaming. Choosing not to bring a Determined headshot build when you're playing with newer players because you don't want to steamroll the rooms before they have a chance to have fun, is technically metagaming.

"The meta" as a term used to describe "what is the most effective" is a modern corruption of the term, but even then I'd argue that's not even correct. Asking about "the meta" in a PVP game will yield you a slew of information about what to expect other people to be playing, which depending on circumstances may not even be most effective. In Warhammer 40K's tabletop game, tournament metas were often full of Space Marines even if their codex wasn't the most powerful in that edition; you could expect the field to be full of Space Marines because they're what most people owned, and fielded, over whatever power-outlier there was that season.

[lilac rampart]

What’s the best high end for sniper these days? Srs a1?

[meager fog]

Take your pick, with a Hotshot build they're all one shotting most things.

[lilac rampart]

Copyyy

[simple haven]

White Death for single headshots
M700 if you want slightly more rounds in the tube
Any of the SRS if you want a balance between power and convenience of being magfed, as you'll still hit breakpoints easily enough in solo scaling and the difference isn't so great that you're likely to miss a breakpoint

It's probably worth noting that if you're speedclearing content for the sake of quests/objectives, or if you don't care about gear quality and more about fishing for a drop in the first place (planning to just throw optimization materials at it anyway); you can go even faster by tuning down difficulty to Challenging and using a Hotshot build with a semi-auto sniper instead of a bolt to yield some hilarious speedclears

There are people who swear by skill/condition damage builds for speedclearing but there's a lot more individual targets and inconveniently large rooms where fire-spread as a strategy fizzles out, meanwhile there's like only a couple rooms in a couple missions that swarm you with non-headshottable enemies

[meager fog]

IF you're doing that just put turmoi l in and one shot two enemies every time.

[simple haven]

I tried that but I didn't like it as much as just using a semiauto. Turmoil ruins your ability to kill some heroic enemies on a single stack (first kill->fail to kill elite).

And if you're going to drop the difficulty, you can get four shots in with a semiauto (wiping a spawn wave) faster than it takes you to rescope for the second bolt shot.

Ultimately it does come down to the realization that your goals don't line up with needing to clear on heroic, though; say when farming for a chest/backpack where you need to recalibrate the main stat (thus, both minor stats and the talent must drop exactly as you need them)

[meager fog]

That's something you do in CD. And nobody is using a Hotshot determined build there. Its pointless.

[simple haven]

Well, yeah, don't bring a determined build to CD

But not everyone wants to deal with CD matchmaking, or CD period. Sometimes targetted loot comes up on a nice smooth mission to run, or you can combine farming the piece you need with stacking SHD watch levels or world-event levels while farming the open world. Or sometimes you've already done 100 runs of CD looking for your unicorn piece and by the gods you need a break from it while still advancing your goal.

Power farming timed event stars is probably the thing I noticed going semi-auto Determined on Challenging giving me the best mileage; you rip through completions on various open world things at a ludicrous pace, constantly teleporting around to maintain uptime. The lower difficulty means you never stall against a faction that isn't cleaners/Outcasts, despite being a Determined build, because they don't have enough HP in the first place; being able to engage from sniper-scope ranges means you don't get stalled by long sightlines or distal spawns.

You trade a fair amount of xp/clear in exchange for comedically speeding up your cleartime above and beyond the reduction in xp per individual clear; the main challenge then is not getting bored of semi-auto onetapping things, first.

[meager fog]

@subtle bluff Striker Overdogs is EVIL.

Holy crap.

[cerulean smelt]

i'd imaigne anything overdogs would be evil honestly at this point

[meager fog]

But taking the already strongest build in the game and giving it a 30% damage AMP is insane

[simple haven]

Am I weird for thinking that overdogs turned off too often

It's mainly good for when you're crushing spawn doors with pure overwhelming DPS

[meager fog]

THey...never turn off? What are you talking about?

[simple haven]

Well if you need to kill anything in the higher tiers it doesn't apply

[meager fog]

Yes it does....you just kill the lower tiers first dude...

which takes less than seconds

[simple haven]

Okay so it is a "spawndoor curshing" situation then

[meager fog]

No?

[simple haven]

I was finding in open world and plenty of missions that i'd end up looking at a random tank spawn or something

and wishing I had something to get me out of the istuation instead of a damage boost that didn't apply to the one enemy I actually cared about killing fast

[meager fog]

If you're worried about killing a chuinga first then you're playing the game wrong....

They're slow and cumbersome. Easy to move around and kill other things first

[simple haven]

Even in just a plain jane retaliation kill squad I'd have melee tanks chasing me while I manevuered toward the control points

and those would be first on the list by virtue of them, y'know, running up to me

my viewpoint of them was that they made any content where you're already in control, easier

slash faster to clear

any situation where you stumble or end up -needing- to kill something else first you find yourself really wishing you had something like the smokebomb drop or similar instead

[meager fog]

You can easily outrun them...and it only applies to things actually IN combat with you. So if there is a kill squad, dodge the tanks. KIll the gunner...then the tanks

[simple haven]

Don't kill squads always spawn in combat iwth you?

I've never seen them getting the ? -> ! that unaggroed->aggroed enemies do

[meager fog]

Yes....but there are only 5 squad members.....they're really not hard to kill lol

[simple haven]

which rolls back around to my "you are already in control" argument

i've had really bad kill squad spawns before

I had one spawn in my literal ass while in the middle of fighting a control point from a static position

[meager fog]

It's quite simple. Foam or Banshee the tanks....go around them to kill anything lesser in the tiers than them, and then turn around and kill the tanks.

[simple haven]

they kicked open a door and I was just like HUH

[meager fog]

Most CPs in retal take under 2 minutes to complete

[gentle lichen]

I don't like the game telling me who to target
I'll target the most important ad in the encounter

Like focusing a healer over an assault in legendary

[simple haven]

It's fine when you're crushing spawn doors and killing the trash in the wave lines up with your priorities

but as soon as enemies start to scatter your target priority tends to reverse

[meager fog]

#td2-build-advice message

It's counter intuitive for alot of things. But it's freaking strong. I'll be posting a video shortly

[simple haven]

I found myself working literally against overdogs order for multiple rooms in a row and I just dropped them

because they were literally giving me value for like 10% of the room

[meager fog]

You also don't really lose any damage from not using Coyotes, so it's a net positive

[gentle lichen]

No i get you a 30% amp is crazy but for me i'll have to pass on it

[simple haven]

okay, maybe more like 30%

I thought multiplayer might make it better

but I actually found it to be worse there

players aren't even using overdogs there and I will see players prioritzing killing random trash in the back that don't matter even as a tank is literally stomping into their flank

[meager fog]

Insane

[simple haven]

See, and all I see is you killing a bunch of non-threatening enemies who are still locked onto their run-out/scamper behavior upon spawning

which rolls back into what I was saying about spawn crushing

and you can already do that on solo heroic fairly easily with existing DPS builds, therefore an exotic that helps you do the same pattern doesn't actually improve hte build any

[meager fog]

An exotic that makes it quicker by definition makes it better.

Less bullets spent=less downtime=less chance of getting shot=less time spent in missions=more xp=better.

Math.

[simple haven]

That's completely excluding every time you end up with spawn patterns you can't crush, or every time a fumble costs you 2+ minutes purely on recovery or even 5+ on a proper wipe

There's a fiar number of missions that are "crush every spawn lol" and some open world areas are better about having close, crushable spawns than others

[meager fog]

You have some VERY odd "opinions" on things....really it's so wierd to argue this.

Overdogs FACTUALLY makes Strikers better.

[simple haven]

but completely excluding the dps/time gain when you do get to kill things in overdogs order

The argument is that accelerating a TTK of "blink and you'll miss it" is not a meaningful, palpable improvement

[meager fog]

There is zero downside to using overdogs over Coyotes...literally none.

[hexed steppe]

pretty sure it already did 💯
personally overdogs are a game changer to nego. im not sure if on single target sets its as game changing, but with proper use it mops up everything

[meager fog]

Don't say that, Mr Opinion will have your head.

[simple haven]

I mean coyotes was practically filler to begin with

[meager fog]

Oh my absolute days....

[simple haven]

it's always been a statstick type item as opposed to one that changes your playpatterns the way exo gloves do

[meager fog]

I can't even....this person just needs to be shunned.

[hexed steppe]

results speak for themselves. im wiping stuff faster with nego overdogs, than any type of striker setup

[meager fog]

Strikers with overdogs is nuts. Pure and simple.

[simple haven]

Overdogs with ND is probably the one place where it actually reinforces the build's playstyle

Because there you actively want to avoid having to trade with targets or get stuck on tanks

you want to just tap them with a fwe bullets, then gun down trash

[meager fog]

^That guy can be ignored, his opinion yesterday was that OD chest is worse than Grupo Oblit

[hexed steppe]

nego allows you to flip overdog on its head and apply the amp to anything.. used proper ofc

[simple haven]

I mean alright if we're boiling down to this I guess that marks the end of any and all meaningful interaction, lol

[hexed steppe]

yall probably just need a break from eachother

[simple haven]

Yeah, beacuse the ND spread damage only cares about damage dealt to the target the bullet "Actually" hit right

[hexed steppe]

exactly

[meager fog]

Yeah ND is very strong with it.

But ND wasn't stronger than Strikers before overdogs, and essentially Overdogs just gives Strikers a 30% AMP with no downside. So it's still not stronger now 🙂

[hexed steppe]

well, nego could always outdamage striker in multi target interactions.. striker is king because not everything is multitarget interaction... otherwise it would be 2nd place

[meager fog]

Which makes it still king, because it's the same, with a 30% damage amp

[simple haven]

Personally I find the utility of reducing a <1 second TTK further down to be fairly low

[hexed steppe]

personally i think nego has an advantage since its basically applying that amp to 2 other npcs

[simple haven]

a human being needs somewhere around 0.5 seconds (what with all the busy UI elements and infomation overload) to acquire and engage a new target in the first place

[hexed steppe]

its really nice for retaliations too. nego has you caring less about target priority than other sets i think

you still target lowest rank but its not really the end of the world if you bounce around marking things. transfer is still transfer

[meager fog]

Yeah ND makes the game less engaging from that point of view, you don't need to worry about what you hit.

I'm still curious about how Overdogs interacts with Turmoil.

Would be interesting to see if there is a doulbe dip

[hexed steppe]

worth checking. i doubt much tho, still dividing damage, just a slightly higher amount

[meager fog]

I mean you still don't need to worry about which target you hit with Strikers, since you're only losing 25% CHD on everything and gaining a 30% amp on alot fo things even if you don't think about it.

[hexed steppe]

is it still affecting headhunter?

turmoil i mean

[meager fog]

The tiers are so cramped, it's actually hard NOT to proc overdogs

[hexed steppe]

i agree, priority targets present themselves

[onyx sage]

the current theory is turmoil only deamps the bullet damage but not hh bonus, so yeah

[meager fog]

What I mean is:

I hit the lowest tier target with turmoil active, that target gets a 30% damage amp, which applies to the damage split. DOes Overdogs then dip again for the split damage to the second target (if it's the lowest tier) and amp that damage by 30%?

Essentially, you'd be doing more DPS to the secondary target than the primary.

[hexed steppe]

i would imagine it treats it like nego. conditioned on the target you hit

[onyx sage]

i don't think so, they've eliminated basically all double dipping

[magic pilot]

it does not

the only thing that still works with turmoil is HH

[meager fog]

Have we tested this? it was my next port of call when I got bored with Overdogs Strikers ruining the enemies game time

[onyx sage]

it is an easy test

take your overdogs striker with turmoil and hit a target, get the 2 numbers and add them up, set it as X

swap that turmoil piece for a regular ceska knees (or any ceska piece elsewhere and put striker back in that slot), hit a target and get the number, set it as Y

assuming everything else is equal and striker stacks are equal, it should be that X = Y

[dreamy valve]

Tech Overdrive buff should be permanent, but without the Skill tier boost

Red dps build power has gotten out of control with each season, so why not just do the same with skill builds at this point

[red island]

wat

overdrive is way too strong to have it permanently for free

[dreamy valve]

Red builds already got strikers/negotiators and overdogs, on top of lvl 30 expertise weapon damage

HH/ Determined

[red island]

yellow build got hard wired and btsu gloves

and healer/tank

it's good

[hexed steppe]

Mortar builds exist😎

[red island]

Red build dont have réal skill uses

yellow have that

[dreamy valve]

I’ve find that enemies just die even before the mortar lands at this point

[hexed steppe]

Then youre doing mortar wrong

[red island]

so why u dont like yellow

[simple haven]

yeah, the red-core DPS creep has been fairly insane

[hexed steppe]

[red island]

like mortar is just crazy strong

[simple haven]

Frankly I think there needs to be a statsquish or a heroic+ difficulty, at this point

[red island]

there is, it's called legendary and master

[dreamy valve]

The ratio of skill dps builds to red dps builds in a pug say otherwise

[simple haven]

legendary is boring because it's always white task and their specific enemy strategies

[red island]

then u use skills wrong

[simple haven]

And Master is only for specific missions that also tend to have gimmicky, unfun setpieces

[red island]

so ?

[dreamy valve]

Not wrong, red builds is just flat out better

[simple haven]

ehhhh, the few legendary pugs I've seen are quite a few skill builds going full-coward and hiding in the previous hallway while skill proxies slowly nibble everything to death

[red island]

no, they flat out easier, not better

[dreamy valve]

You’ve been in a raid group/incursion with only skill dps builds?

[simple haven]

But it's true that most heroic matchmade missions are just crushing spawns at this point

[hexed steppe]

Dps is way easier. Doesn't require skill to use for most part.
Something like mortar won't appeal to most because it does have a pretty steep learning curve. Self delete reinforced*

[simple haven]

single players can hold down spawn doors on 4-man scaling, that's not okay for the highest difficulty available for a given piece of content

[dreamy valve]

So are you saying Skill dps has a higher skill ceiling, and the damage will be higher than red dps at that level?

[subtle bluff]

Should see my solo leggo dua first section with it

[simple haven]

throw a mortar turret onto a spawn door and you can crush it with fewer inputs than a gun build would (because you just mortar the door 2 times)

[hexed steppe]

No. Some of the strongest skill builds are the hardest to use and might put you on par with red dps

[simple haven]

but you have to be fast on the draw because the mortar takes time to throw and deploy, usualyl you have to have it set up before

it's a lot of trouble, for sure

[red island]

not only skill build, but some ye, not everyone likes skills

[hexed steppe]

Youll have to pm if you have something to share

[red island]

striker takes a while to ramp up, and mortar u can just double tap

[simple haven]

Eh, the thing is once you have the scaling to get multiple waves

[dreamy valve]

What’s the builds that legendary /raid speed runners use more, red or yellow? Cause if it’s a skill issue, are you saying these speed runners who use red builds have a skill deficiency and their runs are not taken as seriously

[simple haven]

striker will be stacked up to deal with waves past the first, meanwhile the turret-user is still scrambling to get it positioned; hence, "lots of trouble"

I disagree that using raids as a metric of build strength is good

Most difficulty in a raid comes from group-gimmicks as opposed to stat checks

[hexed steppe]

I dont disagree with red builds getting all the love btw. Definitely have and red trumps yellow 9/10 times

Personally on leg I also red.

But I'm always gonna shout out for
-# Mortar Supremacy

[meager fog]

Speed runners use multiple builds for every run, optimal to the conditions of the sections theyre running.

There isnt a single legitimate speed runner who does any mission with one build.

[dreamy valve]

I just wanted to understand why skill builds are fine as is? What happens when you come across emp situations in the content? Your dps drops to zero during that time fighting Hunters

[simple haven]

EMP is the single worst gimmick in Div2

[meager fog]

That is certainly one of the takes of all time.

[simple haven]

Thematically it has its place but mechancally it purely serves to take toys away from players and prevent them from using the builds they worked hard on

"okay, you're playing Gears of War now"

"if you brought a skill build to this section, sucks to be you, I guess"

Yes, I will fight Summit 100 with my 0 red, 0 crit build

said no one, ever

[meager fog]

"Remove anything that makes the game harder"

Is all I heard then

[dreamy valve]

What yellow dps build are they having to switch to during a run that they can’t do with a red dps build? Only thing I can think of is oxidizer, and those are very situational. I think the majority of speed run times are under the red builds

[simple haven]

and then they thought it was so much fun they made it the final room of several (?) missions at this point

[hexed steppe]

Well raucey has a level 100 guild speed clearing with oxi.

[simple haven]

Is that the hilarious memerun where you stack so much oxi on the hunter spawns from the previous room that they instantly die when you walk in

[onyx sage]

it's not really a meme run, it's the best strat

[red island]

bro how many arguments do I have to debunk for you to admit it's not Black and White ?

Lady death is a dog shit tier weapon yet it's widely use to speedrun

[simple haven]

It's kinnnnnd of 'meme' because you need three buddies on board with you, unless you can still do it solo (I thought you couldn't)

[onyx sage]

you can do it solo

[dreamy valve]

I’m just pointing out the reality, and not the ideal of how things are

[onyx sage]

you can shoot oxi and self oc, solo scaling means they don't even have time to run away

[simple haven]

Huh, I thought you needed the contribution from multiple party members with identical builds oxy-ing hte same spot

[onyx sage]

in groups the scaling is high enough that you need foam

[onyx sage]

nah it's just more insurance

[meager fog]

He doesn't understand the difference between whats best and what isn't.

[onyx sage]

nah i wouldn't put it down to that

[simple haven]

Hmm, I -do- need Tempest, if it's doable solo I ought to get the pieces for it lol

[hexed steppe]

But skills could use some love for sure

[onyx sage]

i just don't play oxi if i don't have to cuz i like red builds more anyway so that's what i roll with always

[dreamy valve]

Skills have been on the wayside for awhile now yes

[meager fog]

They sure could, but they do also have glass cannon which helps when you are ploughing everything into skills 😉

[hexed steppe]

Refactor was a pretty solid addition tho. Kinda blending the damage and heals

[onyx sage]

oxi is like either extremely inconsistent or extremely busted, there's no in-between for me, it depends on the encounter, so i don't really use it much

[dreamy valve]

The tech overdrive event reminded us of how good skills can get

[simple haven]

I have a lot of fun with a shield+stinger refactor build

extremely goofy af, you run around spooking enemies out of cover by constantly throwing the stinger at them

and your sustain as a tank isn't just for you, it hits the whole team

Unfortunately it completely falls apart whenever you get objectives that don't take stinger damage lol

god, I hate turret powerbox missions so much.

[dreamy valve]

Emp jammers?

[simple haven]

those too for obvious reasons

Even just EMP jammer summit rooms are like

"WELP TIME TO BECOME A RED BUILD FOR A ROOM"

which feels really stupid.

At least loadout swapping is fast.

[red island]

reality is builds are diverse and you can play what u want it's all viable u dont need to hard buff skill builds to the point u would oneshot everything in sight every 3s

[simple haven]

you say that, meanwhile we get gun builds that solo 4-man scaling

it's a pretty massive eyeroll but it's also understandable that people want to be as powerful as possible

[red island]

skill builds can do that too, it's just another skill curve

[onyx sage]

i wouldn't think of it only as power scaling but also in terms of risk factor. red builds inherently take more risk

[red island]

solo Master mission isnt so much about guns, it's about positionning and taking down enemies fast

it's hard cause u get no error room

not cause skills builds cant do it

[dreamy valve]

Definitely a step up from Ortiz gear set for sure

[red island]

hot take : ortiz is a fun build

[dreamy valve]

For meme times? Sure

[red island]

some red build are for mêmes too

virtuoso for example

[dreamy valve]

No one plays either

[red island]

I do, cause im a fun enjoyer

cleared brooklyn with it on heroic

even with nbb

[hexed steppe]

Ortiz is the skill equivelent of a tank build in the way it just weighs the team down

[onyx sage]

credit where credit is due, ortiz backpack is good

[dreamy valve]

You’re talking to someone who uses 6 blue core builds, I do enjoy enjoying things I like as well

[red island]

yeah but the build is fire

[hexed steppe]

Dumpster fire*

[red island]

so what's the issue ? all builds acn be used, that's fine

[red island]

dont talk smack about ortiz u bish

there should be fire damage stats on gear tbh

[hexed steppe]

Decorum. I know no disrespect was meant but...

[dreamy valve]

The issue is that I think yellow builds can get a bit more attention in the coming seasons, so I can get to explore more skill builds that can be just as good as current red dps builds in general content, which the argument I’m getting is that Skill builds is fine as it is, and I’m disagreeing with that notion

[red island]

sry I got carried

[hexed steppe]

No worries 👍

[red island]

à bit more attention is completely understandable, full overdrive is way too much tho

fk discord man

[dreamy valve]

If not the same as overdrive, they can just boost skill tier effects to encourage leaning into skills

[hexed steppe]

I think i missed tech overdrive

[red island]

it was stupidly strong af

[hexed steppe]

Weekend event right? I had like 2 weeks I didn't get much time in

[dreamy valve]

It was fun wasn’t it? And that’s what matters

[hexed steppe]

I miss my season with oc on demand.

[dreamy valve]

The reason why Golden bullet is the best and most fun global

[red island]

fun yeah, but only for a while, ut wrecked dz and pvp, also made everything way too easy

there is such a thing as too much of a good thing can be bad

[dreamy valve]

Could be added as a global event

[red island]

that I would be in favor for sure

[hazy steeple]

I love reading "too easy" comments about builds for div2, as if people here don't constantly spam newbies to use Strikers meta hugging setups.

"hey i know you just started the game 5 minutes ago, but go farm a strikers".

"what do you mean you're bored?"

[red island]

I mean striker is the easy way out, obv once they settle in more confortably other builds are proposed

[meager fog]

I mean, it is the easiest build to farm...just alkso happens to be the strongest lol

[rich cosmos]

The game definitely has difficulty issues but it doesn’t help that a lot of stuff is under performing

[red island]

like if they ask for fun builds or they say they are bord of striker

[rich cosmos]

Shd 10636

[hazy steeple]

That is the cheese dream of endgame setups.

[meager fog]

Lets stop referring to Shd as if it has any importance on anything

[simple haven]

what in tarnation is going on there

is that a purple chest

[violet juniper]

That is indeed a blue chest

[hazy steeple]

I like to think they really wanted the fashion of the chest, but didn't know you could get it as an appearance mod.

[dreamy valve]

No, I don’t think everything is viable. Oxidizer for example has its place in situations where it shines, but I don’t think it’s a practical build for general content to dps with

[vivid shard]

also, do you ever hear of the skills that just kinda suck? traps, every drone except for striker, bombadier drone, fireflies, etc

[hazy steeple]

Oh honey

[magic pilot]

Shock trap is pretty good, spotter drone is good too

Blinder firefly is pretty good for cc

[vivid shard]

blinder?? I have never seen someone use that

[magic pilot]

If I'm not fighting black tusk I'll run it with eclipse cc

[vivid shard]

shock and spotter are okay, but have you seen anyone running repair and shrapnel trap?

[magic pilot]

No cause they aren't good

[hazy steeple]

Blinder this season is pretty great, Demo's always been good.

@rich cosmos gets it.

[red island]

thats what "viable" means = it has its uses

not everything is meant to be used in EVERY content

[hazy steeple]

Just give up now on the "viable" definition, I've been banging that drum for years.

[urban latch]

"Viable" is near meaningless with how differently people use the word

[dreamy valve]

That’s what I meant as well

[red island]

so its fine ?

[dreamy valve]

It’s fine in certain situations yes, where it’s utility is a lot more apparent

[simple haven]

blinder quickthrow has always been great even on 0 skilltier builds

pocketsand-ahh ability

I'd go so far as to argue it's primarily good when skill tier is low; no one has the time to manually lock targets up to the max on high-skill tier CC builds

[dreamy valve]

Ive found Demolisher to be underrated as well

[simple haven]

What enemy faction do you use demolisher on

because I'm wringing my thoughts and I can't think of a faction I feel like I need it on

[dreamy valve]

The heavy chunga with grenade launcher, you know the annoying one with massive splash damage that always seems to get players? Yeah one tier 0 demolisher cripples them

[hazy steeple]

Demo is good on any faction that has a unit which causes AoE on weakpoint break.
Hyena, Outcast, Cleaner, take your pick.

It's especially nice in open world stuff, where enemies tend to spread out too quickly, or spawn weirdly far away.

[subtle bluff]

Viable doesn't mean good. Is what I say for Div2

[hazy steeple]

You should say something else.

letitgorivens

[subtle bluff]

Well the whole thing is solo heroic build stuff

[hazy steeple]

did you deflate halfway through typing that?

[meager fog]

Viable means "feasible".

If you can solo content with something, its viable by definition.

If you cant, it isn't.

It doesn't mean good.

[meager fog]

No Chow though is it 🤣

[obtuse crystal]

This is the meta build

[meager fog]

Viable yes. By definition.

Feasible, absolutely.

Good
....

No.

[subtle bluff]

I blame both souless and raucey for it

[urban latch]

Slow AF

[silent storm]

Petrov Glass cannon is the new Pesti build chest?

[meager fog]

Even needed a WH chest to get it done 😁

[red island]

no i meant the gear is fine, not everything need to have all uses

[dreamy valve]

Yep that’s what I meant

[red island]

so, skill builds are fine

[silent storm]

Why what's wrong with Skill Builds?

[dreamy valve]

They could be improved upon

[red island]

i agree but your methods and your metrics on whats considered viable/good are flawed

[dreamy valve]

Either bring then in line with red builds or scale their power back, That’s all that’s need to be said before, where just going to go in circles all day

Or do you want that, since I do have all day

[red island]

what is "in line"

[silent storm]

Skill builds aren't even close to all Red builds

[red island]

cause red builds can oneshot everything without needed to aim

do you want skill build to wipe a room on the press of a button ?

they dont get in danger

[silent storm]

I have a few Skill builds I like but the fact you can't OHK with a BFB is kinda sad

[red island]

so they shouldnt have the same damage output

[red island]

yeah but if you can ohk without getting out of cover or even peeking, thats too much