td2-build-advice

[stiff jasper]

Good for hazard pro but not good for him, I don't see any reason to use ninja BP, get 10 hazard from ceska to make your hazard increase to 20 from 10

[bronze hound]

im just saying ive seen ceska use in hazpro builds and rivens is trying to argue that i guess?

[tawdry flare]

bro i uave typed it below using ninja is unacceptable

[hazy steeple]

I'm asking you why you are suggesting to use Eclipse in a build with hazpro, Ceska has nothing to do with it.

[bronze hound]

where did i say that in this conversation

where did i suggest anything

[tepid trout]

How are people saying ouroboros needs to be nerfed on yt and stuff

[bronze hound]

it does a lot of damage but i doubt a nerf worthy amount

[hazy steeple]

This, Eevee. Answer the quesiton.

[bronze hound]

there was no other way to get full hazpro before eclipse other than 3/2/1

[tepid trout]

Talent is poopoo in pve and easily countered/ignored in pvp

[bronze hound]

tell me im wrong because im not

[stiff jasper]

He mean 3 eclipse with hazard, but not 4 eclipse with hazard, I guess

[bronze hound]

not 4 piece

[hazy steeple]

3pc gearset builds, ugh.

Yaahl and 2pc Ceska is the proper hazpro build, no one sane would be arguing that.

[bronze hound]

lmao

[stiff jasper]

Nah, you wrong

[bronze hound]

this is where personal opinion starts to dictate what you claim as facts

[tepid trout]

In ih for diag people would use 3pc eclipse for 100% hazpro

Along other pieces

[bronze hound]

which can now be swapped for 2 cav and an improv

[hazy steeple]

Yes that is Raids, in those you can also use the Ravenous and not be laughed at.

[bronze hound]

what

[tawdry flare]

2pcs cavelier exists

[bronze hound]

already said that

[tepid trout]

I'm talking about what people would use as a defence for 3pc gearset builds

Before Cav existed

[hazy steeple]

I'd like to hear how a non-Raid, non-pvp hazpro build for DPS is set up, and what you'd use it for then.

[bronze hound]

yeah i used 3 eclipse cuz it freed up brand sets

3 eclipse + emperors guard + pointman + belstone bp with ad rush

[tawdry flare]

bad choice don't you think 3 pcs 1 yahl and 2 ceska better

[bronze hound]

no

less armour regen

[hazy steeple]

Why are you people using 3pc gearsets when it just removes the 2nd attribute slot, which you can dedicate to hazpro anyway?
that way you can actually have decent crit/hsd stats, depending on what you need

[tawdry flare]

no you can use the rest of the 3 pcs -3 eclipse

plus 10% chc is quite good too pass on

[bronze hound]

20 from brand sets, 60 from attributes, 10 from watch, not 100

[tawdry flare]

-3 slots

[bronze hound]

wdym

[stiff jasper]

Let say , if I want 100 hazard, before eclipse come out, the only way is yaahl 2 ceska and 3 5.11

With hazard eclipse, then no necessary to use yaahl and ceska, free 3 brand set to pick those thing who actually benefit you, but not useless chc with tank position

[bronze hound]

^ thats what im tryna get at

youre not brand set locked with eclipse

[tawdry flare]

yeah sacrificing 3 slots which i can use for whatever i want

[stiff jasper]

Gila, ep, 2 Golan, belstone, whatever

[bronze hound]

the only thing they can be used for is explosive resistance

[stiff jasper]

Fake bot fk off

[bronze hound]

or like headshot damage so you can do still useless damage

[tawdry flare]

lmao what was that rivens wiped him out of existence

AI will wipe the chat lmao

[hazy steeple]

Damn I'm fast today.

[bronze hound]

but the sub attributes dont mean much

youre either gonna be using explosive resistance from attributes or armour regen from BSB/EG

[stiff jasper]

For example, No eclipse, no perfect vanguard with 100 hazard

[bronze hound]

and no armour regen

(shitty attributes dont count)

[tawdry flare]

say a backfire build 3eclipse and 2 ceska 1 yahl

[hazy steeple]

Stop, it hurts.

[tawdry flare]

[bronze hound]

did you see that backfire build i made

[hazy steeple]

my baby doesn't deserve the evil of a 3pc gearset put on it.

[tawdry flare]

no cavalier allowed it was not part of discussion

[bronze hound]

lol

[tawdry flare]

2pcs cavelier is meta hazpro

no arguing there

[bronze hound]

i take the same hazpro build as eclipse but swap 3 eclipse for 2 cav 1 improv

[stiff jasper]

If you talking about "bad"fire, of course you need 511 but not eclipse since you want chc
But we are talking build sense, but not backfire only

Follow up topic ok?

[bronze hound]

can i post a photo of my backfire build lol

[tawdry flare]

ok

[tawdry flare]

already seen it but yes

[hazy steeple]

hey @fickle light wanna see people make backfire way worse?

[bronze hound]

rivens i gotta be honest that is unnecessarily hostile

[stiff jasper]

My backfire build :
4fi perfect effiency lmao

[bronze hound]

this is for pve not pvp

[hazy steeple]

If you posted a Nemesis build based around crit and you know how div2 works at a base level, you deserve people to mock you.

[tawdry flare]

backfire talent with ourobouros lmao swap to ourobors when bleed occurs

[bronze hound]

first of all idk what youre talking about second of all what the fuck stop trying to attack me

[hazy steeple]

No one's attacking you Eevee, you post suggestions in a public forum, people are allowed to critisise.

[bronze hound]

"you deserve people to mock you" isnt critique

[tawdry flare]

honestly 2pcs cavalier would have been better

[patent elm]

i hope that was a joke

[flint wave]

negotiators dilemma nemesis

[hazy steeple]

I'd honestly use that over a 5.11 backfire.

[flint wave]

Shame we can't have 100% crit chance

[glossy scarab]

well since we're showing off bad backfire builds heres one i did thats just terrible (using gear sets for backfire is the only way to make the damage worthwhile)

[tawdry flare]

mhh

[stiff jasper]

Yes, but how you get cavalier 1year 2year ago

[hazy steeple]

Thankfully we are in 2023 now, which is a sentence I never thought I'd say.

[tawdry flare]

time machine

[flint wave]

You become a dev

[tawdry flare]

we should do a backfire competition need azure or raucey to do maths(build should be practical)

top 5 picks for best backfire build

than the analysis

[flint wave]

1 ridgeways pride 3 rigger 2 5.11 1 brazos

[dull ermine]

Fox prayers or grupo ? If you’re crit starved (hitting cap but not at expected level)

[glossy scarab]

best damage ive gotten from backfire is with strikers

[stiff jasper]

Well but I don't think you still need hazard with this, 4piece cavalier are also reducing the bleeding damage even it caused by backfire you know?

[flint wave]

okay

[glossy scarab]

heartbreaker does very well too but the headshotting sucks

[patent elm]

there is no way you get to 100 bleed resistance with strikers without seriously destroying your crit

[tawdry flare]

how about negotiators backfire

[patent elm]

honeslty ninjaback might be the best option for backfire

[glossy scarab]

the chd sucks sure but the chc is 58

[tawdry flare]

we get chc chd from nego

[flint wave]

1 ceska 1 cavalier 2 eclipse op?

[tawdry flare]

nah too much dmg loss

[patent elm]

definitely not eclipse

[flint wave]

I can't believe this

[patent elm]

wtf is wrong with you guys and eclipse on dps builds its horrible

[flint wave]

might as well go all in on the ninjabike suggestion

[hazy steeple]

I'm 70% sure it's a joke at this point.

[patent elm]

yes but at least somewhat seriously

[glossy scarab]

strikers backfire. body crits like 1.3 mil at max stacks. you can do this build with a ceska oblit chest too and the stats are the same but you get some more up front damage and less high end damage

[patent elm]

somthing like this https://mxswat.github.io/mx-division-builds/#/MzC0YNlAmHQBgUxLlvgLgKxbQRlAL2FVLjJQxHDgNgBZ71mLsCpECKWWMBOUFDBce3UhnrsasMaOQZo9ABxI+AvFnUQiEThBnoMs40blijQA

[glossy scarab]

nice for max hazpro. not the best for damage

[patent elm]

well if were talking backfire then you need max hazpro?

[glossy scarab]

no only 70

and bleed resist mods

[patent elm]

then you loose a bunch of crit though

[glossy scarab]

you gain 200 crit from backfire

[patent elm]

and idk if youre going for hazpro anyway might aswell go all the way

[patent elm]

that takes way too long

[glossy scarab]

thats why its a shit weapon

just for laughs

[tawdry flare]

You can spam perfect efficient with backfire

[patent elm]

that sounds horrible

[stiff jasper]

Most people here don't give a fk to pvp, but I just want to mention, when people still thinking how to build resistance to prevent backfire damage yourself
I use backfire dealing damage myself to allow me medkit healing teammates, think out of box

[glossy scarab]

if the screen turns red at all it ruins my experience

movin all slow and shit

[stiff jasper]

Switch off your monitor then it never bleeding red or blinding white

[glossy scarab]

thats an ineffective way of playing video games sir

or madam

[flint wave]

I await the ouroburos flash grenade combo

just for annoying people

[glossy scarab]

oh shit blind bullets

[hazy steeple]

And people called me mad for playing cs:go with the sound off.

[flint wave]

but it probably wouldn't work with st elmos making people run haz pro builds by now

[glossy scarab]

how long does it last? like .5 seconds

[stiff jasper]

I would say not that useful as you think, but ridiculous combo with shield

[flint wave]

2 seconds on npc

[glossy scarab]

not bad

[stiff jasper]

Around 2

[glossy scarab]

thats good for shooting enemies that are bullying your teammates

[cyan drift]

playing games without a headset on is weird sometimes

it just doesn't feel right

[stiff jasper]

Whatever how much time you take the status effects, or how many status effects you have, it always around 2

[glossy scarab]

yeah i was thinking status effects would have no impact on those special rounds with ouroboros

[stiff jasper]

Small secret, use ouroboros with shield
That's what I can tell you, try yourself if it not fixed next pts

[hazy steeple]

the headset is on, I've just got early 2000's pop playing.
aint nothing like div2'ing with Torn blasting.

[glossy scarab]

i used it with bloodsucker, HF and defender drone instead and it was way OP

[cyan drift]

nothing like running the map with free bird on full volume

[glossy scarab]

gimme back my bullets

[tawdry flare]

yeah that one is good disorient ammo

[stiff jasper]

It more deep than your thinks, try hard

[glossy scarab]

bc of the shield?

[stiff jasper]

Yes

[glossy scarab]

cool i hope theres a second pts

[flint wave]

Letting your shield break for disorient bullets is huge brain

[glossy scarab]

thats why you put it away before it breaks and get in cover

[onyx sage]

nonono you want to deliberately do it, big brain moment

[flint wave]

[onyx sage]

easy disorient

[fickle light]

did rivs ping me again

ah ya

[tawdry flare]

ouroboros with shield mhh what other combo could that be

[fickle light]

honestly not even the worst i've seen- cant really be mad at it

[stiff jasper]

Obviously you guys are not completely study about ouroboros

[glossy scarab]

what happens with the shield, your guy opens up that folded stock and shoots the weapon properly

[stiff jasper]

Last hint, what is the disorient different between shield breaks and banshee

[tawdry flare]

one applies to self and banshee to enemies

that's what i meant

break shield on purpose

[glossy scarab]

yeah got it

[stiff jasper]

That also a different but not the answer

[glossy scarab]

sweet sweet disorient rounds

quit holding out on us man just what tf is it?

[stiff jasper]

When you know the answer, you know how bad of massive devs AGAIN

[glossy scarab]

i cant know the answer though. so this whole thing is a tease. a rude rude tease

[fickle light]

unironically i've found if i need to focus i just throw on some breakcore or similarly "normally overwhelming" genre and somehow someway my brain just locks down and zoop, thing done

[hazy steeple]

For that I use LDO, a podcast I legally can't recommend to anyone under the age of 25.

[tawdry flare]

the aoe

[stiff jasper]

I want you guys get more study on it so, i won't giving answer this time, unless someone get it

[stiff jasper]

Wrong

[tawdry flare]

we have unlimited trials right?

[stiff jasper]

☝️try hard guys

[fickle light]

why are you even playing this game? Tell the people and get it over with, playing 20 questions is not the reason this chat exists

[tawdry flare]

pulse

[glossy scarab]

you suck. im not working extra hard beyond a google search to find out more about this shield thing

i refuse to put in research for you good day to you sir

[fickle light]

based jd

[tawdry flare]

cover penetration

[flint wave]

yeah shields can't pulse

[bronze hound]

I'm down for adding a pulse shield for no reason

[flint wave]

finally i can run flatline on gunner spec

[bronze hound]

Lol

[flint wave]

looks like one of the striker builds of all time

[bronze hound]

opinions?

just cropped the pic thats all

i swapped to fixer drone and firewall shield

[flint wave]

How much health does that shield have?

[bronze hound]

~2.1m

to be exact, 2,097,047

[bronze hound]

slightly more than a single blues worth

[livid horizon]

Uh RnK

[bronze hound]

yes

helps the drone and shield health

[livid horizon]

🤮

[bronze hound]

what

i prefer the drone over gunner aok

and with firewall more shield damage

[livid horizon]

Striker isn't for cqc

[tawdry flare]

i tried outoboros striker not worth it cause striker doesn't gives a way to survive

[livid horizon]

You're better off with technician for a skill tier for drone/shield @bronze hound

[bronze hound]

Why nor

[orchid cloud]

I think he wanted the special shield type

[livid horizon]

Cos HF

[bronze hound]

Striker does more damage no?

[livid horizon]

I know.

[bronze hound]

She and it does more damage

[orchid cloud]

I'm terribly sorry

[livid horizon]

Striker does more dps on full stacks. But HF much more consistent, better heals, better for cqc cos of cc

[tawdry flare]

the thing is the hf cc saves tou if you have got 4 enemies firing at you in cqc you kill one 3. are disoriented with striker have to kill 4

[hexed steppe]

With Hf can also memento which would be 2 more skill tiers for shield

Could also scorpio since not needing to stack with the shotgun

[bronze hound]

Well this is more of a mid-close build where I can bounce between the two without much issue

Also remember most of the content I do is raids/CD

And that I also have a HF build

[bronze hound]

I have dif builds for dif content lol

[tawdry flare]

everyone has that lol

[bronze hound]

So what's the problem

[flint wave]

memento says otherwise

[bronze hound]

Striker without backpack? Why

[flint wave]

Don't need in solo

[bronze hound]

Don't need striker solo at all

?

[flint wave]

this conversation is irrelevant then

[bronze hound]

Wdym lol

It's not a solo build?

[raw ivy]

first night playing, played on console years ago. think im getting my farming build together

[bronze hound]

You should get a Ceska vest

Better than grupo

[raw ivy]

whats ceska give?

[slate wedge]

you get to 50% without ceska

[bronze hound]

10 crit chance

[bronze hound]

And with ceska you get to 50 with more attributes to allocate towards crit damage

[flint wave]

less critical hit damage tho

[raw ivy]

im at 46.7 and 122.1 with meh rolls on my CD. idk how to get the blueprint for the optimize materials yet

i want to get or make matts for the optimizing but i dont have any of the blueprints

[livid horizon]

lol please be quiet

[livid horizon]

you asked for advice, I gave it.

[bronze hound]

I'm just explaining my choice that's all

Also I moreso asked for opinions rather than advice lol

[livid horizon]

yea I understand, and gave you a better alternative

[bronze hound]

I wouldn't say better but to each their own ig thanks for the input tho

[livid horizon]

nprobs, anytime

[flint wave]

sorry I don't abuse or have regulus

I'll be enjoying my alternarive

[livid horizon]

still gum-bumping tho

[slate wedge]

i wanted to explain but my calculation doesn't make sense anymore

[bronze hound]

Lol

Ceska is just under 2 attributes worth

Grupo is just over 1 attributes worth

Ceska worth more

[raw ivy]

basically im good for a bit till i get a god rolled ceska right?

[bronze hound]

Ye

[livid horizon]

who wants to play with me on PC right now?

[bronze hound]

I have school rn unfortunately

[raw ivy]

i gotta farm some control points if u want in

[livid horizon]

im down for whatever

[livid horizon]

I know all about those!!!

[raw ivy]

my names the same as in here, i can vc if you want to aswell

[bronze hound]

What does that even mean

[onyx sage]

@livid horizon you wanna play in around 8 hours from now?

[livid horizon]

I have two kids, well, they're not exactly kids anymore, but they still need lifts all the time@bronze hound

[livid horizon]

I can't in 8 hours, but will deffo next time you're on

[onyx sage]

sure

[bronze hound]

Ah I'm in uni

It sucks here lol

[livid horizon]

hehe, been there, done that

[onyx sage]

out of school and full time for me

[tawdry flare]

same here

[patent elm]

There is exactly one other option for a BP in a striker build and that's vigilance to have more dmg before you have stacks otherwise striker bp is way too good

If you want some stack dps build with memento run heartbraker

[flint wave]

Heartbreaker is worse then this

[patent elm]

Heartbreaker memento is not worse than striker memento

[flint wave]

heartbreaker has less damage then no bag striker

especially since you can't run gunner

or st elmos

[patent elm]

How do you figure less dmg exactly

Except running focus chest I guess

[flint wave]

Rate of fire > assault rifle damage

gunner > tech

St elmos > other assault rifle if we don't consider focus

[bronze hound]

wait what is "other assault rifle"

[flint wave]

other assault rifles that isn't the elmo

[patent elm]

The 2 last statements are plain wrong though

[bronze hound]

without focus a famas out-dpses tho?

[flint wave]

and that's super relevant in real gameplay

[patent elm]

And the playstyle you're trying to do with memento works a lot better with heartbreaker

[flint wave]

it really doesn't

[patent elm]

Idk do whatever you want but it's highly suboptimal

[bronze hound]

i personally prefer fast hands on my famas so its 1% less damage but much better sustained

[flint wave]

elmos has killed multiple targets and single targets faster then my fast hands famas both in the shooting range and in real gameplay so I clearly don't have the same experience

[bronze hound]

is your fast hands famas and elmo both godrolled at max expertise

[flint wave]

a few decimals in percentage doesn't make 1-2 second ttk differences against multiple dudes, assuming you hit every shot that is

[bronze hound]

your stats dont match what anyone elses is, so something is off

[flint wave]

clearly

[bronze hound]

give your testing methodology, builds, and exact numbers pls

that way we can look into it more clearly

[flint wave]

Hard mode multi target area in the shooting range, 4pc striker with bag coyote and ceska(at the time of testing), and do you want my ar attributes?

[bronze hound]

and exact damage numbers

also why hard mode and not heroic, that can kinda throw things off

[flint wave]

No I'm on heroic

[bronze hound]

oh my bad

[flint wave]

I'm talking about the shooting range setting, it's what changes the enemies ranks

[bronze hound]

arent they mostly reds and purples tho

[flint wave]

hard mode makes yellows and purples

[bronze hound]

i thought that was very hard

[flint wave]

I used the same layout each time, 4 elites 2 purples

[bronze hound]

@urban latch could you jump into this convo (sorry for the ping)

[flint wave]

I made sure to kill my striker stacks each time also so I could have the least unfair advantages. Don't have a high end build on me unfortunately which would probably be more consistent

[bronze hound]

what were the damage numbers per shot

because if youre landing mostly crits then fast hands should 100% beat out in that test since the reload speed is signficiantly higher

[urban latch]

I think a fenris + armor core would do basically the same thing but better, and it would free up your chest so you don't need to run striker chest if you don't want to

Or grupo

[bronze hound]

AKThompson is saying that their elmo is beating out a fast hands famas in 1-2 second ttk difference

[flint wave]

on multi target which is what I mostly tested

[urban latch]

He sounds like someone who likes fog lol

[bronze hound]

what does that mean

ive straight up never heard that before lol

[urban latch]

YTer lol

[flint wave]

div 2 analysis guy

[urban latch]

He's really not worth listening to, tons of terrible conclusions from him. That said, fast hands FAMAS and Elmo are both solid options, just depends on what you prefer. But tldr fog vastly overrates the elmos mag size

[bronze hound]

arent majority of youtubers just bias karma farmers

[urban latch]

He loves cherry picking examples to "prove" his points

[bronze hound]

i see

[slate wedge]

elmo gun handling is just what makes it insane paired with 20% chc and chd mods

[urban latch]

It's very good, I'm not saying it isn't.

[slate wedge]

only critic i have for it is that the scope has no real dot in the middle

[flint wave]

I got used to that

it's worth getting used to for head glitching with shield

[bronze hound]

i hope ouroboros just throws out elmos in terms of usage personally

[slate wedge]

i hope so too

getting boring

also i am huge vector fan

[bronze hound]

im not

[flint wave]

what smgs do you like then

[bronze hound]

⠀

[flint wave]

I agree

[slate wedge]

i live vector and lady death

[livid horizon]

@raw ivy GG dude, was fun playing with you. Enjoy the Exotics!

[tepid trout]

On yt why does everyone seem so sure ouroboros will be nerfed when it's the most easily countered exotic in the game and has stats worse than a lot of ars?

[raw ivy]

thank you, i had a blast.

[bronze hound]

You can't compare an smg to an ar

@tepid trout

[tepid trout]

Yes but I'm saying what would make people want to use it when it's worse in almost every attribute

[patent fossil]

how many ARs have >1500 RPM?

[bronze hound]

The fact that SMGs have no range, the fact that it runs out of ammo stupid quick, and the fact that it's locked behind the incursion

[tepid trout]

Smgs like the grudge have good talents but ouro has little

[tepid trout]

None but the talent is near useless

[bronze hound]

Actually let's rephrase that

How many guns have over 1500rpm

[tepid trout]

In most aspects of pve it does literally nothing and in the dz it's ridiculously easy to counter

[bronze hound]

The talent on Elmo doesn't do anything and people still use it and it's still powerful

[patent fossil]

if the dps outmatches every other smg at short range, what matters the talent?

[tepid trout]

It also has an amazing fire rate attachments range and mag size

[bronze hound]

Bingo now you get why ouroboros is good

Because the talent doesn't define the gun

[flint wave]

Welcome to Stat exotics

[tepid trout]

It's dps was subpar when i was using it

[bronze hound]

Not everyone else

[tepid trout]

Eh I guess it just comes down to a matter of preferance ig

[bronze hound]

I'll probably throw it as a sidearm for my hhf build

[patent fossil]

I rarely play at short ranges so I doubt I'll have much use for it at all, but I'm sure many will (depending if/how much it gets nerfed)

[flint wave]

but that means no regulus

[bronze hound]

It's locked behind incursion I'm not expecting a heavy merf

[hexed steppe]

I stick with elmo or a rifle while everyone else is playing how fast can I drain my smg ammo reserves 🤣

A lot of people at close ranges have a real reliance on scorpio to keep them safe, I doubt new smg will make as huge of an impact as ppl expect

How was its handling?

[bronze hound]

looked average to me

as a vector regularly is

[hexed steppe]

What bugs me about that thing... why oh why did they choose to model it folded. Looks stupid 😅

[patent fossil]

because ouroboros probably - closer to that figure of 8 shape

[hexed steppe]

Looks terrible. Shoulda just left the stock off if it wasnt going to be used

Just poor design

The drum mag on it is also at a weird angle.

[slate wedge]

dps is 25% better than normal vector

[tepid trout]

And I wouldn't normally use the vector...

[slate wedge]

sorry, it was 37.5%

vector has the highest burst dps tho

and ouroboros also has an insanely quick reload which makes its sustained dps great too

[bronze hound]

Fancy

[slate wedge]

a vector would need a 37.5% amp damage talent to match the ouroboros

tf is wrong with massive

[bronze hound]

To be fair regulus

That's all I have to say

[flint wave]

and people want ouro to be nerfed

[slate wedge]

i mean you need to hit heads with regulus

[slate wedge]

ridiculous right?

[bronze hound]

Easy enough

[flint wave]

regulus is a 686 magnum so that's ez

[slate wedge]

how so

[bronze hound]

Pretty good accuracy

[flint wave]

magnums are accurate and have barely had recoil in my experience

[bronze hound]

Mhm

[glossy scarab]

so i made 100% haz pro and im gonna try it in the dz, just to farm not so much to fight. just farm and defend myself if possiblw

[glossy scarab]

works great for dz farming landmarks. cleared a couple heroic in like a minute. got up to around 140 backfire stacks and was critting around 350k in the DZ

[ornate crag]

55%/130%
would this build be good enough for the raids?

[glossy scarab]

you could use ceska and grupo and get higher chd and the same chc

if ya got the pieces that is

[crystal ledge]

would run striker chest and a rock n roll shotgun but otherwise decent

although you don't want to run the elmo's engine against the first boss on dark hours

if you just want "good enough" this is good enough if you've got a nice ar like a famas

[glossy scarab]

usually people say high end red builds are better for raids. good damage right off the bat without having to stack. also the rifle is gonna be better suited to a red dps

i use stuff like this

[bronze hound]

preference

[hoary atlas]

Guys is that bad idea use 3 Negotiation Dilemma and 2 Striker like Hybrid

[tawdry flare]

yes very bad

[hoary atlas]

Mask, Armor and Kneepads were Negotiations Dillema
Gloves and Holster are striker backpack was ninjabike

[tawdry flare]

you used Ninja bag = BUILD Nerfed

[hoary atlas]

At least I still have Striker + Ceska Full damage + Coyote mask

[tawdry flare]

just use regular nego

[hoary atlas]

Memento is that count ?

[tawdry flare]

memento definitely better than ninja

if you want to go nego than 4pcs nego bag with ceska gc/obliterate Nd coyote if usung st. elmos swap chest ti groupo obliterate or Perfect glass cannon

[hoary atlas]

Technically yes

Or this one

[tawdry flare]

only legendary content with that build no need for such power cause npcs dont have that much health

[hoary atlas]

So ceska one ?

[tawdry flare]

ceska better with general non exo weapons

on striker

[hoary atlas]

What should be replaced with st. Elmo

M4

Or Famas

Second I use Rock & Roll to increase Striker ability

[tawdry flare]

famas fast hand or strained hand with scorpio as backup for stuff ir go acs route to build stacks

[plain girder]

Famas make sure it has dmg targets out of cover so u can reroll talent to whtvr whenever but mainly u wanna be running around with optimist

[onyx sage]

if you're running full red, strained or fast hands are better picks

with expertise, optimist becomes even less desirable

[plain girder]

How so, it still hits hard specially when they go pulse resistant ND you can't do no pulse damage with spotter+flatline

[onyx sage]

are you talking about pve or pvp?

[hoary atlas]

Wait I have Scorpio

And FAMAS but Burn out

[onyx sage]

because the discussion has been around pve

[hoary atlas]

Should I replace the shield with foam ?

[onyx sage]

no shield on full red is very punishing

[glossy scarab]

yeah take a shield

just put it away before it breaks when youre using it

[plain girder]

Even then optimist gives you weapon damage that will always top crit damage ND crit chance

[onyx sage]

nope, not if you run full red

you get a lot of weapon damage already, from red cores, expertise, specialization, watch

even with negotiator, you get less crit than a high end build

[glossy scarab]

optimist is kinda boring. i take my chances with killer. im able to keep it up most of the time

[hoary atlas]

Allright

[bronze hound]

I personally don't like full red shields either without shield health

[dusty gate]

hey coming back to the game, how can I see the Raid Voice for PC? thanks!

[bronze hound]

They were deleted

[tawdry flare]

div2 thanos wiped them out of existence now we have 2 get them back

[tawdry raven]

theres another division official server that the raiders use cuz it still has raid voice

[nocturne socket]

It's a community server, not official. But yeah, a lot of people seem to use it for their voice channels. 🙂

[hoary atlas]

Does anyone know Meta Hybrid Build

[tawdry flare]

check the pinned spreadsheet

[slate wedge]

i just can't get a c7 with dtooc

i got pike 30+ c7s but none with dtooc

so fumb man

[tight robin]

I doubt there is one; Hybrids never seem as strong as a more focused build.

[hoary atlas]

Well I use Scorpio and famas

But Which talent should I use for famas

[tepid trout]

Optimist

[hoary atlas]

What about Perfectly on empty

[tepid trout]

In the dz it's only hybrid builds pretty much and a lot of people run hybrid strikers, hunters fury or HB

[hoary atlas]

Should use damage to armor ?

[tepid trout]

The burn out isn't great

[hoary atlas]

Or CHC/CHD

[tepid trout]

Meta famas it ar dmg, dth and dtooc

With optimist or fast hands normally

[hoary atlas]

CHD is that good

Also I have a sadist one

[tepid trout]

Sadist would be good on a ridgeway or ongoing build

[hoary atlas]

I used Full red Striker

[tepid trout]

Buy that's abt it

[hoary atlas]

Allright

[tepid trout]

What do you normally do?

Raids?

[hoary atlas]

It's legendary Build

[tepid trout]

I wouldn't really recommend using striker chest for regular pve

[tawdry flare]

use ceska obliterate

[tepid trout]

Something like the pristine example with an 8x famas is more popular

[hoary atlas]

What about Dilemma

[tawdry flare]

that is for legendary content and mission in open world it is a problem

[tepid trout]

Than running striker chest I mean

[tawdry flare]

Dilema OP

[tepid trout]

Negosh is good for a lot of content

Raids or legendaryfor example but i like it for pretty much anything with tanky enemies

[tawdry flare]

nego striker hf are those gearset which. works everywhere in pve

[hoary atlas]

Is that fine when Dillema with Ceska + Memento

[tepid trout]

Run negosh backpack

No Memento I beg of you

The main effect of negosh only does 60% without the backpack talent

[hoary atlas]

Wanna see heartbreaker build

[tepid trout]

What I run (I only use it for boomer) is 4pc negosh with sacrifice or chainkiller with the dodge city

[hoary atlas]

I don't get dodge city

Because need a parts

[tepid trout]

Not on rn so can't screen but I run 4pc with coyotes and foxes

I run 2 armour cores but if you run more it will be tankier

[hoary atlas]

maybe this is bad idea

[tepid trout]

You won't do much damage but if you wanna just use it to be tanky it works OK

[hoary atlas]

I use it for Raid Iron horse

[tepid trout]

Then no

I wouldn't recommend it

Xbox raids are different but we generally run all red (besides a few builds) all the way through

[hoary atlas]

Aughhh this is why I need to collect system corruption

[tepid trout]

Like healer, key tank, stagger tank, diag etc

[tawdry flare]

and are arguably the best set in the game

[hoary atlas]

I tried to make "The Hunter Role" Build

[tawdry flare]

HB chest will give more

[hoary atlas]

That perfect spotter on chest

[tawdry flare]

hb chest raises stacks to 100

[tepid trout]

Is that the piece that makes the bonus armour 2%

Nvm

[tawdry flare]

that is the bag worthless

[tepid trout]

Yeah couldn't remember which was which

[hoary atlas]

Actually that Named Chest "Closer"

[red flame]

if you mean the backpack it's the memento

[hoary atlas]

Guys

[tepid trout]

Yea?

[hoary atlas]

Which DZ has most system corruption

[tepid trout]

Any

It's never targeted loot

[hoary atlas]

DZ east like Very chaotic

[tepid trout]

Extract everything no matter what so you can craft more poeces

[hoary atlas]

I even saw a Striker user with memento and Eagle bearer

[tepid trout]

Pieces*

You want striker backpack

[red flame]

striker with eagle? BRUH

[hoary atlas]

I swear that was chinese

[tepid trout]

That used to be very popular b4 they nerfed it

[red flame]

they nerfed eagle?

[tepid trout]

Yeah forever ago

[red flame]

damn

[tepid trout]

They nerfed a lot of old greats

Like the bakers dozen

Yhe bullet king

[red flame]

i only heard bout pestilence

[hoary atlas]

Obliterated is that good Talent

[tepid trout]

It's a popular substitute for gc

But it only works on builds with decent chc

[hoary atlas]

I got Obliterated Talent

[tepid trout]

For what build

[hoary atlas]

Striker

[tepid trout]

That works

What brand set

Ceska?

[hoary atlas]

might be Ceska Chest

[tepid trout]

That'd be perfect

[hoary atlas]

I got Obliterated Talent on Recalibrated

Might be works if I got Perfect Ceska chest

[tepid trout]

Is it wd chc chd obliterate?

[hoary atlas]

Yes

Chc Chd

[tepid trout]

That's perfect then

[hoary atlas]

I got Obliterated Talent from Gruppo sombra

Then put on the recalibrate station

[tepid trout]

Perfect

[tawdry flare]

try the legacy caches they drop system corruption

[hoary atlas]

One thing I needed was Ceska chest perfect with CHD and CHC

[hoary atlas]

Ah ok

[tawdry flare]

farm xp you will get shd and stars to buy legacy caches

1Shd= 1 star,12 star= 1 legacy season caches

[hoary atlas]

Should I do a farm, Control point?

[tawdry flare]

just farm xp in general

[red flame]

best try is with public execution

[tawdry flare]

public execution with as many directives you can handle

[hoary atlas]

Might be works, thanks guys

[tawdry flare]

just get determined d50 headhunters fury and you are good

[hoary atlas]

Before I go, I was got capacitor

That is only used for Full Yellow ?

[hoary atlas]

Allright

[red flame]

yea in case you want to have turret/foam/jammer etc builds and do a medium damage - capicator is your man

plus it gives around 60percent skill damage i think

[hoary atlas]

Allright Thanks

Bruh

Sadist Famas

[tawdry flare]

no bleed = no buff

fast hands / strained famas better

[red flame]

i prefer killer but that's allright too

[hoary atlas]

Vindicator is Ass or nah

[red flame]

for striker not much - unless you got gunner pulse or sth

plus it's more good for squad

[hoary atlas]

Killer or strained is better

[red flame]

never tried strained but i think it works better on low RPM guns - not famas

[hoary atlas]

Lemme guess AKM

[red flame]

yea sth like that

[hoary atlas]

Might be Killer good for famas

[red flame]

yup - rises the dps way to much

[hoary atlas]

Killer + Obliterated =

Might I will grind ceska on Countdown

[tawdry flare]

good for famas too

[red flame]

fr?

i mean with killer you'll get instantly 40percent chd....

[tawdry flare]

burst dps famas fires for 3.33s while strained takes 2.5s to reach max cap

[red flame]

huh....

[hexed steppe]

Killer is a chance of a chance to actually proc while strained procs every time you are firing.
Strained > killer

[red flame]

what is the max of strained...?

[hoary atlas]

He was not wrong and strained was better when use fast RPM

[tawdry flare]

50%

[red flame]

then i guess strained is acutally better

[tawdry flare]

if you can maintain killer 100% uptime than it will be good but it is rng as of rn

[raw ivy]

LF a good AR pvp build that isnt insane to gear up. any ideas? thought about trying heartbreaker

[tight robin]

Any thoughts on this one? Mainly oriented around lots of separate multipliers, with Perfectly Wicked, Contractor's and Fox's. I proc it with Perfect Trauma, Imperial Dynasty (maybe not necessary w/Trauma) and the Stinger Hive, but I'm wondering how the proc will look if I move to some other chest talent that's more damage-oriented.

[glossy scarab]

imperial dynasty huh? bold

[patent elm]

if you build requires imperial dynasty then your build is not good

[tight robin]

Hm, maybe go with Perfect Companion on chest, for another 20% TWD by dropping the hive beside me.

[tight robin]

That build doesn't, so, phew! that's not a problem. Good thing it's not that any build that simply uses Imperial Dynasty is bad!

[patent elm]

yes thats exactly what it is

[tight robin]

Ah. Well, once your abilities at Div2 builds move from the "Competent" to the "Proficient" stage in the Dreyfus model of learning you'll understand that such specific rules are not always true. It's something we say to people until they learn better.

[patent elm]

in general id agree, but imperial dynasty is never good in any build ever period

[hexed steppe]

ID is around the same burn as fire bullets right

[glossy scarab]

if it set more than 1 enemy on fire and the fire was worth a damn and the cooldown was shorter it would still be bad

[tight robin]

Take a look at the build above and tell me why I care how much damage the fire does.

[hexed steppe]

any why foxes, are you using oxi?

[patent elm]

foxes is ironically the best part about that "build"

[tight robin]

Ok, so assuming I replace the chest with something more damage-increasing (say, Henri with Perfect Companion), what do you suggest Imperial Dynasty be replaced with?

[hexed steppe]

not really, depends on where the crit is. chances are grudge is main

[patent elm]

anything that actually helps the build

[tight robin]

Not sure what you mean by "oxi"; Fox's is for the DTOC, of course.

[patent elm]

if you run perfect companion on chest then there is no reason to not run companion on backpack

[tight robin]

Sure. So what is that, and why does it make the build work better?

[hexed steppe]

it doesnt affect the skills other than oxi though

oxi=oxidizer

[tight robin]

Oh, I didn't even know it affected that skill. Interesting. But no, I'm not running Oxidizer, and I'm not too concerned with how it affects skills given how little skill damage I expect to do. (If my skill damage is any significant fraction of the damage I do, I'm clearly not shooting my weapons.)

[hexed steppe]

could also just use a red eclipse. 30% amp from bag , status spreads on kill

and could run glass on top

[tight robin]

Except then it would be a status damage build, not a weapon damage build. People here seem to be having difficulty with the idea that someone might apply status for reasons other than doing damage.

[hexed steppe]

well the 30% eclipse amp affects all damage

same with glass

even if you rolled all crit stats you would still have status spreading with a lot more damage to weapons

[tight robin]

Right, but it is buffing a rather smaller amount of damage. Getting an Eclipse build up to 60% CHC/120% Cdmg would be...challenging. I suppose I could start by losing all my armour regen, but that's pretty useful to me, especially when solo.

[hexed steppe]

well 18%amp, 20% twd with perfect companion /perfect wicked.
ep amp 30% glass amp 25/30% depending if perfect or not. pretty big difference in damage

[tight robin]

Perfect Companion isn't amp, it's TWD.

[hexed steppe]

im aware. i just worded that weird

if its the only source of twd itll act like an amp though

[tight robin]

No, it's a difference in damage buff. If you start out by doing less damage in your 30% amp situation, the 30% amp may not bring you up to the same amount of damage as something with a smaller multiplier but multiplying a larger amount of damage.

[hexed steppe]

and there is a lot of blue and yellow attributes atm so im guessing you could match the crit

[tight robin]

I corrected you specifically because it's not the only source of TWD. If it was just a typo, no problem.

[glossy scarab]

yeah if those are armor regen, the three of them arent really doing you much

[tight robin]

I don't see how to match the crit in a Gear Set build; you lose four attributes.

[hexed steppe]

you have non crit attributes now

and what other source of twd

[tight robin]

I've found them to be quite helpful. Must be my playstyle.

[livid horizon]

your build is trying to do too much at once, you're better off going for more synergy on a couple of things rather than trying to incorporate a lot of things but not doing any of them that well @tight robin

[tight robin]

Here's an extract from the pic I posted above.

[glossy scarab]

most important question. does this build perform?

[flint field]

no

[tight robin]

What are the things it's trying to do, and which ones do you suggest cutting and keeping?

[hexed steppe]

mb thought wicked was an amp

[livid horizon]

Thats Weapon Damage, not Total btw - edit scratch that, Wicked IS Total

[hexed steppe]

so yeah, it actually helps my point that both are additive if you use perf companion

[tight robin]

Yeah, it's always hard to see because in their infinite wisdom the developers decided to make "weapon damage" orange but leave "total" white like the rest of thetext.

[hexed steppe]

so 55-60% amp is way better than 38% additive twd. eclipse would do everything youre trying to do

[tight robin]

I'm not sold on Perfect Companion, it just happened to pop up when I was scrolling through stuff. In particular, there's the question of how to get Wicked proc'd at ranges > 20 m.

[livid horizon]

Well, if you want crit damage then its pretty tough to get anything else in there due to needing crit chance and crit damage. You said this was a weapon focused build so lets go full crit. Next you want some status, so you could farm a red Eclipse build, roll crit on it and use Elmos to spread the shock on kill, for example

[glossy scarab]

makes skimming quickly for info problematic. easy to miss the "total"

[tight robin]

Where are you getting 55-60% amp from. And you still seem to be assuming the Eclipse is amping the same damage that the TWD in this build is multiplying.

[hexed steppe]

ep bag, 30%, glas 25-30% depending on perf or not

2 amps , 2 multipliers as well

twd adds with itself before multiplying

[glossy scarab]

i tried an all red eclipse build in pts. the fire chem was useless. they barely stayed on fire long enough for me to switch to a weapon

[livid horizon]

its only there for the spread on kill for a bbit of CC

[tight robin]

So where do I add more crit? It's already at 58-60% CHC, has all crit mods, and almost everything that has regen already has crit damage on it. I guess there's one regen I can swap for crit damage, so, yeah, I should probably do that.

[livid horizon]

You need status ammo for it to be effective really

[livid horizon]

what are your crit stats?

[hexed steppe]

stats before figuring grudge

[glossy scarab]

this is a case of some less than ideal gear piece rolls

[tight robin]

The glass is a distraction; it could just as easily go on this build, if I didn't mind taking the damage input hit.

[livid horizon]

Glass Cannon is a distraction?

[tight robin]

Yeah, that's one reason I've been looking at stuff like Perfect Trauma and Imperial Dynasty when I need to proc something by applying a status effect.

[livid horizon]

I'll share my Red EP build so you can see where I'm going with this

[tight robin]

Rifle: 56.5%/119.3%. SMG 58.0%/109.3%.

[hexed steppe]

is that with or without grudge proc

[tight robin]

For comparison of Red Eclipse with this, yes. Either one can have or not have Glass, so putting Glass on Eclipse and saying it's better because of the huge buff from Glass is kinda silly. Compare it with Glass on both, if you're going to bring in Glass. Which gets you to about the same place as Glass on neither.

[hexed steppe]

your current would still be less with glass

[tight robin]

That's without. I'm not using Vindictive, Grudge or otherwise, on this build, though it might (or might not) make sense for the CHD.

[hexed steppe]

so why not scorpio instead of grudge. itll be another source of status and another amp if something is debuffed

[livid horizon]

Red EP

[hexed steppe]

thats pretty nice

[glossy scarab]

oh i see. you're only using fire for CC. when i built it i was thinking i could set enemies on fire and use pyromaniac + the 30% amp backpack damage against them.

[livid horizon]

kill a dude with shcok ammo and everyone around him gets shocked

[tight robin]

Not clear. I agree that the multipliers (from amp and TWD) would be less, but again, you're not explaining how with the loss of four attributes you're getting the same damage to be multiplied. Would you rather have 1.4 buffed by 35% or 1.8 buffed by 18%? I'll take the latter, because it's larger.

[livid horizon]

You can, but then you crop the crit and stack status effects

[glossy scarab]

right

[livid horizon]

and Scorpio is v nice

[tight robin]

Yes indeed! My understanding is that the Imperial Dynasty basically does negligible damage, and my (not huge, but not zero) experience with it seems consistent with that. It's really enjoyable to have people come near and just catch on fire, though. :-) (Also helps with situational awareness.)

[livid horizon]

Scorpio works great on this status EP spreader build

[tight robin]

That's not Grudge. Note that the talent on it is not Vindictive.
But yeah, Scorpio is certainly an idea. I tend not to think of it because I avoid it; it feels uncomfortably OP to me. Anything else (besides the usual "proc after 4th kill" talents) on the weapons side that applies status?

[livid horizon]

on the build above you can use any status skill you like

fire chem being very effective

[tight robin]

Yeah, but that build does a lot less damage from weapons, right? I've got builds about doing damage via status, but that's not what this one is about. I don't think I'd want to drop below five reds: I'm already losing about 8% of my possible Wdmg from that one yellow core.

[tight robin]

What the CHC/CHD on that build?

[livid horizon]

its a bit of a hybrid to be honest, and since everyone is usually CC'd its fun watching muliple status effects spread all over the place

[livid horizon]

44 chance, 70 dmg

But my point is, you cannot do it all, so choose a route and synergise with that

[tight robin]

Oh, definitely; I do like using the StEf spreader builds. It can be done to some degree even without Eclipse; I've got a couple of Perfect Creep builds that I rather like using.

[tight robin]

Right. And in this case, it's weapon damage. Perfectly Wicked seems a pretty good thing for weapon damage with its reasonably high and very long lasting (27s) TWD buff, so I don't feel like that's going off in a terribly wrong direction.

[livid horizon]

yea P Wicked can work

[onyx compass]

Guys, what build is true patriot used for? How do I make a armor build with it and is armor build actually useful at all?

[tawdry flare]

if you are making dps eclipse bag is good option

[tawdry flare]

true patriot is a subpar gear set

might as well focus on other gear

[tight robin]

Problem is, Eclipse bag adds a nice multiplier but needs a lot of other stuff in the build that ends up heavily reducing what you're multiplying.

[tawdry flare]

true but with Scorpio it is near 100% uptime

[onyx compass]

heheheh. I wear it for the drip, and also because it's the most armored gear I have now.

[tight robin]

So the tension in my build appears to be between keeping Perfectly Wicked proc'd, which Trauma does essentially permanently, or trying to proc it in some other, less reliable way so that I can do something with the chest (and maybe holster) to increase the damage that TWD is multiplying.

[tight robin]

100% uptime doesn't help with the fact that you're simply multiplying significantly less damage.

[tawdry flare]

red ep is good enough dmg for most content

[livid horizon]

Elmo's?

[onyx sage]

they're not using EP in the first place tho

[tawdry flare]

bruh

[onyx sage]

it's a high end

[tawdry flare]

my bad

[tight robin]

Ok, so swapping the regen on Contractor's with CHD gives me 56.5/131.3% CHC/CHD on rifle and 58.0/121.3% on SMG.

[tight robin]

Not such a reliable proc, but hmm...maybe good enough. And switching from a rifle to an AR means I can put Obliterate on the chest....
And then in SMG mode the Imperial Dynasty is keeping Wicked proc'd.

[tawdry flare]

perfect trauma + imperial Dynasty is meh combo you are wasting

exo slots

[tight robin]

Yeah, everybody keeps saying that, yet nobody has a better suggestion other than "Go use Eclipse and massively reduce your weapon/crit damage."

[tawdry flare]

if you want perfect wicked go ongoing directive

4pcs bag is ceska wicked chest groupo gc

get a famas with sadist and scorpio for initial proc

once you get ammo than it is just killing stuff with infinite ammo

[hexed steppe]

Could also Hf wicked

Lots of better options than what was posted

[tawdry flare]

3 amps :od 20%,gc:25% ,wicked:18% twd

i just hate how useless some perfect talents are

[hexed steppe]

Scorpio most reliable proc for status btw regardless of build used

[onyx sage]

and then you have perfect binoculars

[tawdry flare]

bruh have you read the story a guy even better than roterblitz appeared

[onyx sage]

where

[tawdry flare]

Perfect Binoculars is one of the best perfect talent

pf ,phh,pgc just to name a few good talents

[onyx sage]

pgc repeated lol

[tawdry flare]

you read wrong

[onyx sage]

smh

[tight robin]

Again, 1) GC doesn't work better with other builds than it does with this one, 2) you're suggesting taking a big hit to CHC/CHD, without any evidence that it's compensated for by amp.

[tawdry flare]

bruh gc is one of the best dmg talent straight up also ceska make for nice crit chance no hits to crits in that build try first overall

[onyx sage]

i mean, if they want to be convinced, let's calc the crit ratio and then compare so they can see

i got 56% chc from OD

[tawdry flare]

from the high end?

[onyx sage]

yeah compare to high end

[tawdry flare]

he has very bad rolls need to make up for it

[onyx sage]

show them that the crit they miss from high end is more than worth it for the extra multipliers

yeah but assume perfect rolls

[tawdry flare]

ok

[onyx sage]

i just need the chd from OD

[tawdry flare]

mhh 26% from ceska pcs and watch

15% on weapon

[onyx sage]

12% more from 2 chc from high end wait nvm

[tawdry flare]

included that in ceska 10+6= 16

[onyx sage]

that'd be 10+12 tho

2 chc

[livid horizon]

literally just shared a 52 chance / 170 dmg eclipse build with you

[onyx sage]

so 32+15 = 47 chc

[tawdry flare]

you including mods coz it should be 41

10+6(from ceska bonus and 1 chc roll)+10+15

[onyx sage]

you have 2 chc rolls tho?

[tawdry flare]

yeah on groupo one too ok

[onyx sage]

you have to since there are 2 high end pieces

[tawdry flare]

2 mods for chc

[onyx sage]

that'd be 59

[tawdry flare]

now dump into chd

[onyx sage]

12% × 7 + 15% + 20%

[tawdry flare]

6 chd rolls + 15% from groupo + 20% watch + 1 mod

119

[onyx sage]

wicked is 18% twd right

[tawdry flare]

yeah

59/119 or 53/131

his build has how much chd ?

[onyx sage]

so on an AR with OD, you get 59/119 crit, which is effectively a 1.7021 multiplier. you also have 1.2 from OD and 1.25 from GC for a product of 2.55315.

your build as it is, even with a crit adding weapon like rifle and smg, yields either 1.74184 or 1.70354. wicked gives 1.18. fox gives 1.07273. multiply with the larger crit multiplier gives 2.15638.

it should be clearer now that the missing crit is more than worth it for the extra multipliers, and also OD has a benefit of supporting the team with an extra amp as well, versus your high end that doesn't have any group buffing capability

[tawdry flare]

infinite ammo also if you know how to play strategically

[onyx sage]

idk why i'm going through this length for something they could calc themselves but maybe just this once

[tawdry flare]

lol

[patent elm]

Surely only this once.... Surely you won't do it the next time people ask these kind of questions and be stubborn about it 🙂

[onyx sage]

(i probably will)

[hexed steppe]

It's usually pretty informative when you guys nerd out on the maths

[tight robin]

Crit is not a separate multiplier. It adds to weapon damage.

[onyx sage]

it is a separate multiplier. did you read the damage formula?

[tight robin]

I did indeed.

[blissful rampart]

.....

[flint field]

lol

[blissful rampart]

crit is 100% separate multiplier.

[onyx sage]

short version:

D = base damage
    * (1 + WD + weapon type damage + sum of ("weapon damage" talents * talent uptime))
    * (1 + sum of ("total weapon damage" talents * talent uptime))
    * (1 + "amplify" talent1 * uptime)
    * (1 + "amplify" talent2 * uptime)
    * (1 + "amplify" talent3 * uptime)
    * (1 + CHC * CHD + HsD * headshot chance)
    * (1 + DtA * %Armor + DtH * (1 - %Armor))
    * (1 + OoCD * %OutOfCover)  

long version: https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/gi0uel/weapon_damage_101_bullet_damage/

[blissful rampart]

☝️

[tight robin]

Right. Look at the line that includes crit. Do you see anything else on it?

[onyx sage]

it is a multiplier yes

adding to headshot doesn't mean it adds to weapon damage

[blissful rampart]

eh welll DTA and DTH are separate, so slight error in that FYI . (but otherwise correct)

[tight robin]

Does that "HsD" on that line mean anything to you?

[onyx sage]

yes, but you said "weapon damage", and if you want to make a comparison that includes headshots sure i'm willing, but your argument is towards weapon damage which isn't the same

and disclaimer, including headshots, the benefit of crit diminishes even further

[blissful rampart]

another short form fyi

Simple Weapon formula:
Base Bullet damage x WD x TWD x (CHD+HSD) x DTOOC x (DTA or DTH) x Amp 1 x amp 2…..

(notice how WD is its own multiplier)

[onyx sage]

yeah only one applies (and with a recent discovery of DTA only applying to crossover damage makes it even more correct 😔)

[tight robin]

It's not a completely separate multiplier, it's additive to headshot damage, yes. So the easiest way to think about it is that your total "weapon damage," including crit and headshot, can have several other multipliers, including DtA, DtH, DTOC, and one or more amps. It's a slight moving around of things in the equation, but it helps avoid the error of thinking that crit is a completely separate multiplier, espcially since crit and headshot are both always present (the former only for those that have at least some crit chance on the watch, admittedly).

[patent elm]

What's crossover dmg

[vestal ibex]

Maybe he thinks of it in terms of amp damage.

[onyx sage]

yes but in the end, you take the product of all your buffs and compare. can we agree on that?

[blissful rampart]

.... its NOT additive. WD x.... HSD = its a multiplier to HSD not additive

additive would be WD + HSD

[tight robin]

No, because you don't take the product of crit buff and headshot buff. Those two you add. And they're also special because they are never 1.0.

[blissful rampart]

🤦‍♂️

crit is additive with HSD correct. BUT we are talking about WD not crit. (which WD is not additive with HSD)

[tight robin]

crit and HSD are additive.

[onyx sage]

you are missing the point big time. without including headshots and reading my reply above, can we agree my methodology is correct first?

[blissful rampart]

but Wd and HSD are NOT additive

[onyx sage]

if we can't agree then this discussion is meaningless as you cannot fact-check what i say and thus can't really take further advice from here

[onyx sage]

it's a single damage instance that crosses from armor to health, and its formula is a bit more complicated when you have DTA on your build yeah

[tight robin]

I'll agree the equation you posted is correct. Carry on. How do you get 59/119 crit on OD?

[onyx sage]

59 from ceska (10) + 2 chc stats (12) + 3 5% chc mods on high end weapon (15) + watch (10) + 2 chc gear mods (12)
119 from grupo (15) + 6 chd stats (72) + watch (20) + 1 chd gear mod (12)

[patent elm]

Why not Coyotes over grupo

[onyx sage]

that's just what @tawdry flare suggested (chest and bp high end)

so i'm comparing with that first

[patent elm]

Ah k I assumed you'd use od chest

[onyx sage]

if you want a more perfect comparison, we can take your high end build and assume perfect stats, but even then you can't close the gap with just crit

[blissful rampart]

ideally you dont want to use OD chest as its weaker then a normal chest and OD backpack is only for fun.

although if aiming for more group support then yea coyotes does fit in OD builds. (at the cost of weaker chest talent )

[tight robin]

Wait, you left off the glass in my build. If you're going to put it in yours, put it in mine. That's where you went wrong in your comparison.

[patent elm]

I guess I never considered od for non group play

[onyx sage]

i saw trauma in yours so

[tight robin]

Yeah, don't actually need that. Turns out that, since I'm running Survivalist, I have two more ways than I'd thought of proc'ing Wicked at range.

[patent elm]

Cause there are better options for solo (unless you absolutely insist on playing with ar/smg/Lmg with ammo hoarder directive On heroic)

[onyx sage]

then yours would beat OD yes

[tight robin]

Ding!

I'm not saying it's a truly brilliant build, but it's not as crap as many seem to be making it out to be.

[onyx sage]

you still lose some benefits to be fair but on numbers for solo, your build wins

but hopefully we shed some light on how these builds compare so you can get an assessment yourself for later

[blissful rampart]

His would be OD in personal damage BUT OD stomps on his with overall damage (since group buff)

[onyx sage]

yep

OD isn't a solo build either so

[blissful rampart]

OD trades personal damage for much higher group damage. compared to HE builds.

[tight robin]

Yes, I've definitely got some good ideas out of the whole thing. (And I do have an OD loadout again that I now like a lot more since it was massively buffed in some release in the last year and a half or so.)

[tawdry flare]

you do know that survivalust buff doesn't apply to self

[tight robin]

Which one, the +10% damage to StEf enemies? I didn't, but it doesn't matter, since the build above isn't about damage via StEf either directly or in that way.

[magic pilot]

I use 2 prov with the sadist named lmg with chc rolled as third attribute

[onyx sage]

yeah that works too

[tawdry flare]

pvigilance pgc nice

[magic pilot]

I use grudge as a secondary as well now

[tawdry flare]

for team yeah it outperform coyote if we don't count coyote stacking

[blissful rampart]

use both 😛

grudge still gives chd at that point

[tawdry flare]

as always use perfect binoculars

[blissful rampart]

🤢

[tawdry flare]

people completing legendary mission in sleep

[onyx sage]

wow

[tight robin]

So is it this buff that doesn't apply to self? That wording usually means that it does.

[vestal ibex]

Yeah it's the same with the demo DTTOC buff and a couple other spec buffs.

Also these buffs apply to only your sub group, which can be important if you are trying to do raid one shot stuffs.

[patent elm]

Yea that only applies to your group and just go be clear, that talent amplifies any dmg your group does to targets who are affected by status effects. It doesn't mean dmg with/from status effects

[tight robin]

Huh, indeed that is true according to the firing range. I thought I saw it working on self as well for spec ammo bar, but perhaps I was wrong about that, or perhaps they use the same wording even though the two work differently.

[onyx sage]

it's something you have to keep in mind yeah

[tawdry flare]

that is why on foam cc survivalist is best in slot

[blissful rampart]

yea wording on those group spec buffs sound like theyd work on you too but in coding they only work on your group (excluding you)

[vestal ibex]

Bro wording on like half the talents is just bad.

[blissful rampart]

yup!!

see sledgehammer lulz

[tawdry flare]

more like 60%

[tight robin]

My notes say that I tested DTOC from Demolitionist and it did include self (they very explicitly say this). Did it change in the last couple of years, or did I somehow get my testing wrong?

[onyx sage]

it doesn't

[tawdry flare]

i don't think they ever bother with the spec once it was released

[onyx sage]

it hasn't changed iirc

[vestal ibex]

It's like here have a math heavy game where it's all crappy word problems.

[blissful rampart]

FYI for talents and gear sets, you can check the pinned spreadsheet, ive added their multiplier group to each one.

also it hasnt changed, that DTOOC from demo never worked on self, so testing was off.

[vestal ibex]

Oh my the damage to armor/damage to health/armor plates vs armor.... man this game sometimes.

[hoary atlas]

Guys

I sacrifice one of my honey badger to get strained talent

[tawdry flare]

did it have dttoc?

[hoary atlas]

Dttoc ?

[tawdry flare]

damage to target out of cover if no you did the right thing

[hoary atlas]

My FAMAS was Crit damage

[tawdry flare]

ar 3rd attribute != dttoc donate/delete/Library

[hoary atlas]

Got that

[tight robin]

Yup, that's also consistent with my testing in the firing range. Good to know.
Still, survivalst seems good for this build; both the incendiary grenades and the crossbow (via its explosion, I think) put a status effect on an enemy. Though do the Demolitionist grenade launcher explosions also cause bleed?

[tawdry flare]

no iirc

[vestal ibex]

Yeah no status provided by the launcher.

@tight robin So you are theroy crafting this build currently right? What skills are you going to use?

[bronze hound]

aew

[tight robin]

Yeah. I've switched from Trauma chest to Perfect Companion, because I think I've got enough other stuff to proc Perfect Wicked often enough anyway, between the crossbow, fire grenades, Stinger Hive, weak points and random explodables lying around the battlefield.
I'm using Stinger Hive, which I either drop near me to proc Perfect Companion when there are no allies within 10 m (and it also helps with defense against rushers, which I am not always great at) and, while I get used to the build, Reinforcer Chem. That can probably be replaced with something more apply-StEf-oriented (Sticky launcher?) once I learn to stop taking so much damage.

[bronze hound]

reinforcer chem sucks for self heal

go crusader shield and fixer drone

the drone will proc the companion and heal you

[tight robin]

Oh, huh, right. Though this is focused more on working at range and behind cover than with a shield. With only one skill core (and no armour cores) I find shields not to be so great, though maybe I'm just playing them wrong.
But again, long term I think I can drop the healing.

[bronze hound]

just run fixer until you drop healing

[bronze hound]

so like a rifle/MMR?

[tight robin]

Mainly rifle, yes, with SMG for backup.

[bronze hound]

okay

then reviver hive

[tight robin]

With reviver hive I can't carry the stinger hive.

[bronze hound]

why do you need stinger hive

it does no damage at tier 1

[tight robin]

Oh, we're back on this again? Doesn't need to do damage.

[bronze hound]

then why do u have it

[hoary atlas]

Jackpot

Finally got Ceska with Obliterated

[tight robin]

For the reasons described in the message to which this is a reply?

[bronze hound]

i responded to it; the drone procs companion too

[tight robin]

Right. But the healing is probably going away, as I said.

[bronze hound]

???

[blissful rampart]

it does not, its way stronger then fixer drone for self healing.

heal chem also double heals shield and its heal is enough to save you in "panic" situations vs repair drone wont. also heal chem heals enough to be able to save an armor kit, vs fixer drone does not.

[bronze hound]

that doesnt make sense, the drone stays around for like a minute and a half

[bronze hound]

its worse in terms of overall healing

[blissful rampart]

this is at Tier 0 heal chem fyi

[bronze hound]

since they plan on playing at range

[blissful rampart]

overall healing doesnt matter when fixer takes years to fully heal you

[bronze hound]

so that situation is debatable in terms of even happening

[tight robin]

Yeah, this is kind of what I felt, actually.

[tawdry flare]

just use kard and swap

[bronze hound]

fair

[tight robin]

...and, while I get used to the build, Reinforcer Chem. That can probably be replaced with something more apply-StEf-oriented (Sticky launcher?) once I learn to stop taking so much damage.

[bronze hound]

kard custom i can get behind

[blissful rampart]

even at tier 0 if you want more self healing, repair hive and heal chem are the best self healing tools by far.

[raw ivy]

ngl my heals suck with either of them :/

[tawdry flare]

also have an aoe to move in

[bronze hound]

i use a fixer drone just because its more constant

and you dont have to sit in one spot

[blissful rampart]

less

[bronze hound]

azur the duration of a drone is larger than the duration of a chem lmao

[hexed steppe]

Same. Fixer + mender

[blissful rampart]

well less impactful heal by far then either of the 2 i meantioned

[tight robin]

That's fair, but I don't need constant heal. I need to fix up bad moments I get myself into that I should not have gotten myself into.

[bronze hound]

but thats not what i said

[blissful rampart]

doesnt matter when even a short duration from chem out heals a long duration of fixer.

[bronze hound]

im saying i use it because its longer

[bronze hound]

also no a single chem does not heal someone to full at tier 0

[tawdry flare]

@bronze hound

[blissful rampart]

i mean you do you, but fixer drone healing over a long duration isnt impactful. vs heal chem or repair hive both are (even at tier 0, compared to fixer drone)

not about getting a full heal

[tawdry flare]

also it suck cause it doesn't work while moving

[bronze hound]

azur youre changing your story

[blissful rampart]

its about getting a big enough heal to matter, in case of self healing, saving you in a panic situation and or saving armor kits.

[tawdry flare]

azure became a writer nice

[bronze hound]

because this is just wrong; a single chem does not out heal a drone

[blissful rampart]

it does

[tawdry flare]

yeah it does

[bronze hound]

at tier 0? no it doesnt

[blissful rampart]

correct

[bronze hound]

which is what we are talking about?

[hexed steppe]

What's the heal rate of both. And duration

[hoary atlas]

Finally

[blissful rampart]

heal chem ticks are every 0.5 seconds FYI, vs fixer drone ticks at 1 / sec

[bronze hound]

but for how long

[hoary atlas]

An Obliterated Ceska + 4 Pieces Striker 1 Coyote mask

[blissful rampart]

both are listed on spreadsheet (durations i mean)

[bronze hound]

five seconds for the chem and 180 for the drone

[tawdry flare]

let me pull the stats

[bronze hound]

17918 healing for the drone and 39817 for the chem

[tight robin]

Huh. I have that spreadsheet open basically permanently and I'd never noticed it lists skill stuff as well.

[bronze hound]

chem claims to heal 199,087

[blissful rampart]

correct

[bronze hound]

which is once per second

not two per second that you said

[blissful rampart]

heal chem is 39,817 per second in ui (but ticks at 0.5s at half this)
Fixer ui is per second and ticks at per second in game as well.

[bronze hound]

ah okay

[bronze hound]

watch repair

[blissful rampart]

so using this numbers,
heal chem heals a little over twice as fast.

[hoary atlas]

Tough Enough ?

[bronze hound]

anyways a chem heals 199,087 and a drone heals... 3,225,240

[blissful rampart]

full duration doesnt matter, as most of that is not being used.

[tawdry flare]

2 heals at tier 0 count that also

[bronze hound]

according to you it does

[blissful rampart]

and also heal chem DOES burst heal your shield.

according to in game use too

[tight robin]

How do "Ally Repair" and "Repair over Time" work? I'm not clear on what they mean. Does it repair you different from allies?

[bronze hound]

that statement you said is just outright wrong with how a short duration chem outheals a long duration fixer

thats just outright wrong

[blissful rampart]

ally repair is to anything that is not the owner (works on skills too)
repair over time is to all

[tight robin]

Depends on the situation, it seems to me. If a chem burst keeps me alive when a drone won't, the drone doesn't heal very much at all, does it?

[blissful rampart]

base stats in 5 seconds.
heal chem heals you for ~200k
fixer heals you for ~90k

[bronze hound]

this is a graph in comparison for the healing

red is chem green is drone

[tight robin]

So the ally repair does an instantaneous huge burst in addition to the repair over time?

[tawdry flare]

you guys are also forgetting that you have 2 heals at tier 0

[bronze hound]

(in multiples of 100,000)

[tawdry flare]

yup

[blissful rampart]

yes but the burst is to anything EXCEPT the owner.

[tight robin]

They really could explain that stuff more clearly.

[bronze hound]

theres many things that could be

[tawdry flare]

it's not practical

[bronze hound]

yes it is

[tawdry flare]

for fixer to work you have to stay still move and

no heal