Give Archers a Real Early-Game Role

[fickle marlin]

Right now archers feel extremely weak in early kingdoms.

Reasons:
• Early spenders get Minamoto + Cao Cao, so cavalry dominates open field.
• Cavalry counter archers, so archers struggle even more.
• Early archer commanders are very limited compared to infantry f2p options Sun Tzu + Bjorn.

Because of this, most players avoid archers until much later seasons.

Possible small solution: add attack range to archers
Example mechanic:
• Archers gain attack range X distance
• If attacking from that distance, they do not receive counterattack damage
• If enemies close the distance, counterattack works normally
• Counterattack would also work normally when attacking cities or other structures.

[sullen orbit]

Archers have perhaps the best march and rally in KvK 1 with Thutmose YSG

It's just not for F2P

But there is also a budget version with an epci comander, that u can use if u don't have Thutmose

[vague frost]

Can doesn’t mean should, no F2P or low spender should be trying to do archers before SOC

[sullen orbit]

Not true

Or at least depends on how much u grind

[vague frost]

Uh it is true. What pairing would a F2P use for archers?

[sullen orbit]

Kusonoki Masashige

[vague frost]

With?

[sullen orbit]

Ysg

[vague frost]

No

[sullen orbit]

Yes

[vague frost]

What’s the AOE factor on this commander?

[sullen orbit]

3 targets 300

[vague frost]

And what’s the ranking for this pairing on the commander spreadsheet?

[marsh beacon]

the f2p argument is stale and irrelevant. if they plan to swap out to a Qin march, they can and absaolutely should work on archers pre soc

[sullen orbit]

But the AOE comes. From. YSG

[marsh beacon]

aethl/ysg is a tried and true f2p march

[sullen orbit]

Idk but it works and I know it

[vague frost]

@abstract locust care to comment?

[vague frost]

Send the reports in #🌟〡battle․reports then

[fickle marlin]

Aethel isn’t even archer commander

[marsh beacon]

f2p are running sun/aethl in kvk 1 no matter what and then more than likely aethl/ysg in kvk 2, the only different is what troop type.

[vague frost]

No, that’s not the KVK2 pairing

[vague frost]

Neither is sun, and YSG isn’t a infantry or cav commander either

[marsh beacon]

if they can do better then there's no reason they can do whatever the meta archer pair is

[marsh beacon]

best inf march is alex/ysg, best cav is saladin/ysg

so yeah, it is

[vague frost]

There’s no “meta” F2P/ low spending archer march

[vague frost]

For whales yes

[marsh beacon]

spend level does not affect what is meta, only if you have access to it

[vague frost]

Yes and no, there’s different levels to the meta depending on spending level. Because something may be optimal for a higher spender but not for a lower/no spender

[marsh beacon]

example?

other than mina in super early game i guess

i cant think of a soc example

[vague frost]

So you’re saying that every infantry player in KVK2 should strive to get Alex/YSG regardless of spending level? It’s the meta pair right? That means everyone should use it

[marsh beacon]

i assume CJ gives you other options but yeah id probably still go for the alex/ysy

ysg has the advantage of not needing to swap out of it

[vague frost]

F2P will have the gh income to max both I’d assume?

[marsh beacon]

i doubt it, which is why i said they likely use aethl/ysg

[vague frost]

As an infantry march?

[marsh beacon]

if they want

[vague frost]

Aeth is a secondary commander…

So YSG primary?

[marsh beacon]

ive definitely seen that march run with all 3 troop types

aethl primary is better if youre not running archers

[vague frost]

As a barb killer perhaps

[marsh beacon]

no, in kvk 1-2

[vague frost]

So everyone should be running mixed marches then?

[marsh beacon]

?

i did not say mixed

you run the troop type that you are working on gear/armaments for

[vague frost]

This is mixed troop type

[marsh beacon]

no, it isnt

[vague frost]

And Aeth gets a bonus for having all three troop types

[marsh beacon]

sure, you can run a little mix

[vague frost]

If we’re running her primary I sssume we are capitalizing on that

[marsh beacon]

none of this is remotely relevant to the fact that this suggestion is just turning archers into siege

[vague frost]

Anyway it’s getting late. Feel free to read up on the actual pairings for early game here #❓〡questions message. it appears Apex is online and he can answer any questions you have

[fickle marlin]

I don’t know what are you smoking dude. Ahahaha😁. You are just here to downvote all my posts and talk things that are just hilarious at best

[sullen orbit]

Check out content creators who did it

I think firefly did

[marsh beacon]

"Possible small solution: add attack range to archers
Example mechanic:
• Archers gain attack range X distance
• If attacking from that distance, they do not receive counterattack damage
• If enemies close the distance, counterattack works normally
• Counterattack would also work normally when attacking cities or other structures."

^that's what siege commanders do...

[fickle marlin]

If this is your only conclusion after reading this post it means that you are a fucking idiot.

Much love

[silver bronze]

Archers early game is a bit ehh but you lost me at adding range?..

No

[fickle marlin]

What’s wrong with that?

[errant oxide]

As someone who has just played early game (I'm in kvk3 rn). To say archers are weak isn't accurate at all. Sure they probably don't have the best f2p pairing but they are very strong.

A. They have the strongest early game commander in YSG. Ysg is literally used in every top tier early game march, except one (phyruss/cj)
B. Thut/ysg is viable for kvk1 and kvk2. And imo is top 2 march for kvk1

[fickle marlin]

But YSG is used as secondary for another troop types most of the time with better results so the fact that he is an archer commander doesnt even apply here. There are even strong economic disadvantages that archers have costing stone to heal while infantry for example cost only food and wood.

[errant oxide]

YSG is still an archer commander and is a must invest for most players.

As for the economical problems, that is why it costs less stone than food or wood to heal

If any early game troop type needs a buff it's cav

Mina is ok but requires YSG or is squishy and single target and outside that cav has no one

[fickle marlin]

but you dont get archer buffs, he is just used as secondary...

[errant oxide]

Mostly yes, but he can be used as archers. And is still an archer commander

And still, Thut/YSG is one of the best kvk1 march

If you talk about but f2p. Whats the cav f2p option?

Baib/aeth, thats asking for bad trades the second you hit something

I know, I ran it for kvk1 lol

[fickle marlin]

still better than archer options plus cav counter archer units

[errant oxide]

No it isnt

Running anything with ysg is better

Even if its budget

[fickle marlin]

so you can run baibars ysg then but still better than any epic archer commander

[errant oxide]

Sure, but thats only good because of an archer commander

And is it better than epic archer. Idk

[fickle marlin]

but it doesnt matter that YSG is archer commander if you dont get archer buffs

thats the whole point

[errant oxide]

But it does, how you use a commander is irrelevant. Archers have a massive early game role through YSG alone

Sure compared to inf it gets destoryed but inf is just king early game

[fickle marlin]

no, you just pair YSG with any epic and inf or cav and you will have better results than going epic archer + YSG + archer troops

[errant oxide]

Which still gives archers the best commander in early game?

And the best way forward considering him currently being semi-meta in soc

[fickle marlin]

but its not for archers if you pair him with any troop type plus any commander and you will ahve better results. Can we agree on this

[errant oxide]

They have a role in early game. Arguably the biggest role in early game. Get ysg, put him into whatever march you want and use him for SoC

[fickle marlin]

yes like even you just proved that he performes better in non archer armies lol

[abstract locust]

trash

[abstract locust]

aethel ysg is not k2 march

the role of archers is for whales, there's no need to change anything about them

f2p still have decent enough options such as sun/aethel or baibars/sun

now with the addition of qin, you might want to run an archer march so that you can transition more easily, but archers just arne't good for f2p unfortunately, which is fine. qin can still be worked on as your second march as you get into k2

[abstract locust]

yeah spend level doesn't affect meta, but spend level affects what commanders you're able to get, so for f2p, the most optimal is what's "meta" for their spend type

when people say "sun/aethel and baibars/sun are meta for f2p", that doesnt mean that they're meta for everyone, that means they're just the best options for f2p to use

[fickle marlin]

i would argue if locking 1/3 of playable units for f2p is fine considering that cavs are also not super optimal choice for f2p.

[abstract locust]

What are you arguing about?

Cav is super viable

[fickle marlin]

not rly for f2p, infantry is way better choice

for many reasons

[worthy hedge]

and Kusinoki hermann slammed my inf march 😂

(mind you I played kvk1 3 years ago)

[silver bronze]

Pov discovering baibars

[abstract locust]

wow this is objective as hell when it's supposed to be subjective 😂 there are pros and cons to both sun aethel and baibars sun. there is no "this is better than this"

[marsh beacon]

Out of interest, what do you think makes something good for f2p?

[vernal wigeon]

"mina, cao, bjorn", tell me you have no experience about the game while not telling me you have no experience about the game ...

The only reason archer is not f2p friendly is the lack of a decent epic commander (like Sun or Baibars). It is still the best single march in kvk1 as Thut YSG is a thing

[abstract locust]

[fickle marlin]

Game is based on math and math is quite objective buddy

[fickle marlin]

Tell me you have no arguments without telling me you have no arguments

And yes Tuth is great for f2p🤡

[fickle marlin]

Something that trades good with non f2p options I guess and infantry does it best currently

[marsh beacon]

is that different than just, 'the meta' commanders?
a f2p will generally trade worse than a spender because they have worse gear and armaments, and in soc crystal tech, but from a commander perspective i dont really buy that there's a difference, other than having access to some comms such as mina and MGE comms (not that any MGE comms are meta in the field).

[fickle marlin]

yes for sure he will but currently f2p best choice is infantry but i as f2p would like to have other options. Its huge diffrence in term of commanders. Archer epics are really bad compared to other starting commanders. Also there is also economic infantry advantage that these units don't cost stone and only food and wood.

Plus mina and cc being super popular early game make many spenders go cav and archers strugle even more then

[marsh beacon]

My point is that "currently f2p best choice is infantry" is the same as "infantry commanders are the best atm"

in my experience, infantry is always the easiest default option because you can just slam them into things and go afk and you'll get pretty ok value out of them.
cavalry requires actual player skill in positioning and picking your fights, but in the hands of someone who takes the time to learn to use them, they will significantly outperform infantry in the field.
archers...look, archers have always been glass canon damage comms, so they need the most help from gear/armaments to help them perform, so yeah i do think it's fair to say they lean towards being unfriendly to f2p.
(the exception to this is qin/zl, you can just send that thing into the middle of the ball and call it a day)

so yeah, archers certainly have a solid role in the early game, but it's not unreasonable to just stay away from them if you want an easier time in the field.
personally i think that different troop types playing differently is great and a big part of field fighting being fun. if they were all the same, why have different troop types at all?
if it makes you feel any better, qin is still broken af in soc so you can happily swap into him after kvk 2, and you shouldnt listen to the inf simps claiming sun prime is just as good, theyre on some heavy copium.

[vernal wigeon]

"the only reason archer is not f2p friendly is the lack of a decent epic commander" you seem to have reading disability sir.
And since you bring Thut, lets be real, 5511 thut (we talking f2p) is weaker by all metrics than Baibar or Sun

[fickle marlin]

thats not the only reason, there is also economic one and the fact that cav is super popular due tue mina and cc

also this change would introduce more strategy into the game

Plus base archer units have just worse stats

[vernal wigeon]

No, range combat is sht cause ROK was NOT designed around it, just look at shifting kvk. If you want to play COD, go play COD

[vernal wigeon]

Plain wrong, dude the more you talk the more you show complete lack of knowledge

[fickle marlin]

literally true

[vernal wigeon]

192 192 187

Dont tell me you were comparing to a special unit .... Wouldnt be much of a surprise coming from you

[fickle marlin]

Swordsman (Inf) 128 125 125 80
Bowman (Arch) 125 128 128 85
Light Cavalry 128 125 125 95
what about earlier units, as we talk about early game as post title say. Plus if you add super strong commanders on top of it early archers super suck

CoD has range mechanic and it works great there, they can just copy paste it

[worthy hedge]

and we have siege?

[fickle marlin]

we don't

[marsh beacon]

ew...no.....

HELL no

[worthy hedge]

tbh if you want CoD mechanics , just play CoD

[fickle marlin]

Yea it’s better to have game with 0 deep strategy mechanics so spenders can just easily drag and drop armies and if they underperform they can just spend more. That’s the mindset here

[worthy hedge]

try to convince Lilith otherwise then

[fickle marlin]

How dare I want proper range units in strategy game….

[fickle marlin]

Unfortunately hardheaded folks like you have to upvote suggestion first

[worthy hedge]

🤷‍♂️ I think its balanced

I had a friend who was f2p and had a way better archer march than my inf march by kvk1 , (we both used epic commanders only)

[marsh beacon]

the strength of rok is the simplicity of its field combat. i played cod for a bit but its endless micromanaging marches and it just makes it very unapealing to me.
we already have siege for ranged in rok.

[vernal wigeon]

and even siege has to be powercreeped out of even beeing even close from reliable

man i really need to get that shifting gear pass screen back

100 of turret march on both side of pass

[vernal wigeon]

the bad faith here is unheard off .... like anyone is gonna fight without T4 in kvk ....

obviously you are gonna find some casual doing it, please dont bring that in here, you already prooved yourself as a fool enough already

[fickle marlin]

lol you have just 0 arguments, typical for low iq person. Yes f2p wont have t4 before KvK. You are such braindead guy it’s really pointless talking to you. Wasting my time

And you keep yapping about kvk when I stated clearly in the post that I’m talking about early game you god damn idiot

Go touch some grass and take some sleep. I don’t want to see you under my posts

[marsh beacon]

this is nonsense, anyone who is active will have T4 for kvk 1

The reality is no one should be fighting before kvk 1. this is rise of kingdoms, not rise of alliances, and anyone in the same kingdom as you is on your team.

[fickle marlin]

No lol. You won’t have power to utilize it. Every f2p player and content creator stays that yet some randoms from discord will be questioning

[marsh beacon]

i was full f2p, in a random 5th alliance with no ties to kd leadership, like 30 members, and no spenders and I still had T4 in kvk 1.

and it's only gotten easier since then

[vernal wigeon]

i re-read your original post, no, you are not talking before kvk1, and no one should even mention it since pvp starts at kvk1. so what's your point ? i keep bringin argument, and you keep insulting me, grow up man

[fickle marlin]

No you bring 0 arguments and you insulted me first Mr delusional

Pvp start when I hit someone

[vernal wigeon]

[fickle marlin]

Funny, f2p content creators say the opposite

[vernal wigeon]

i want the link of any content creator that says you are fine running T3 in kvk1

[fickle marlin]

Go watch 12inch or logickbank

You have no clue about f2p gameplay

[vernal wigeon]

knowing both, i'm pretty confident saying they never said you are fine running T3 kvk1

[fickle marlin]

They said that for f2p it doesn’t matter because you won’t have man power to utilize t4 advantage not that you should not use them. And yes couple thousands of t4 won’t change your outcome much. You will have more lower tier troops

[vernal wigeon]

this is straigh up insulting their legacy, you are just a clueless liar, see you whenever you make a good suggestion with proper claim to back it up

[fickle marlin]

XD

[marsh beacon]

12inch literally had the record for fastest t5, he definitely had t4 for kvk 1 lol

It just is not hard to have 1 Max capacity full t4 march for kvk 1.

[fickle marlin]

It has nothing to do with what I said. And again I’m talking about EARLY GAME

[marsh beacon]

There should be zero fighting pre kvk 1, you're playing the game wrong

For the record; 'early game' means anything up to and including kvk 4

If you want to talk about very early game, that's anything up to the commander swap after kvk 2.

[fickle marlin]

I like fighting in home kingdom

[fickle marlin]

Pre kvk1

[worthy hedge]

😂 fighting in home kd is exactly why your not going to trade well in LK

[fickle marlin]

I don’t care about it. I like home kingdom drama

[abstract locust]

if game is based on math you would know that sun does 6k damage factor, and aethel does 4.8k damage factor (with sun's fourth skill added), total is 10.8k damage factor with sun/aethel. baibars does 6k damage factor (with sun's fourth skill added), total is 12k daamge factor with baibars/sun. clearly you don't know how to do math if you can't determine which one does more damage factor

[abstract locust]

LMAO are we talking about T2 TROOPS? 😭 what are we doing bro

people like you are so stupid, just throwing suggestion at the wall and hoping it will stick

[fickle marlin]

that does not mean baibars/sun is straight up better. I cant get me out pls. You are too low iq to understand that, its fine you dont have to

[worthy hedge]

have you played past kvk1?

[fickle marlin]

no, not interested

[abstract locust]

That explains why then

Level of stupidity is unmatched

[abstract locust]

But you just said numbers are objective

[fickle marlin]

indeed yours

[abstract locust]

I guess they aren’t anymore huh?

[fickle marlin]

they are but there are other factor you fcking idiot

not just skill damage

[abstract locust]

There’s a reason why I’m tome and youre just a white role talking about some bs and have nothing to back it up

[fickle marlin]

how retrded are you

[worthy hedge]

are you just trolling?

I've been seeing way too many trolls post suggestions

[abstract locust]

https://tenor.com/view/talking-to-a-wall-gif-11114435700592428939

[fickle marlin]

its quite opposite buddy

none reccomnedds baibars/sun i wonder why

[abstract locust]

@autumn crest can you close this post pls it’s finished

[abstract locust]

Because it’s new tech

Explain why it doesn’t work for me

“Cav + inf”?

[fickle marlin]

so there are other factors than skill damage bigot

i cant stand low iq ppl

[abstract locust]

Youre not explaining why it doesn’t work