lore-discussion

[dusty trench]

Even Theo has a bunch of of dead Ravens in his basement, maybe trying to make sure no mutation experiment happens again.

Even this can have metaphorical meaning, and also show something literal in a different way.

Like portraying it in a metaphorical way, but it can show stuff.

And more metaphorical spirit like connection here.

[willow depot]

taking it a bit further my prediction is Abanante's road leads to a grave if you catch my drift

[dusty trench]

Ooh

I always seen that as Diane tho. Like reference later on for Diane’s book design m.

But it could be both. One of evil which is Abenante. One is peaceful which is Diane. It can show more of that spiritual connection, even good and evil. Even like good or bad luck. Not everyone who has fortune and good luck is a good person. Not everyone who has bad luck and less fortune is a bad person. So it can be both in a way. They ca use this as an idea.

[willow depot]

goes a bit against the bell puzzle a bit though (the bell is installed to tell if the person buried alive or not. If they are they're knocking and moving and the small movements make the bell ring; they get digged up) but I'm still using the opportunity

I said a bit twice.

[dusty trench]

Even the doll stuff

More doll stuff with spiritual portrayal.

This can tie into the raven Guest portrayal in a metaphorical way. But, show something kinda literal too.

So it ca tie perfectly into why Mike was taking about with the Well.

[willow depot]

":V"

[dusty trench]

Also, what do you suggest with the Franklin picture. Is it just to show the well like what it does and connecting it to like the noises, or is it more.

[ripe berry]

was using it to represent how the whole "guest being a mutated crow" thing could happen in the AS

[dusty trench]

Alr what I was thinking. Because even the noises all around too. Similar to what we hear in the tape.

It can show a step into Guest transformation. With a raven and a human.

Ravens society trying to push the limits to Mayaks power to see its full potential, in there own way.

It can explain the human actions of this person, who could be Guest.

Slowly adapting to the nature of being Raven Man.

And we see later on how this person becomes The Guest we have seen.

[ripe berry]

we're seeing exactly how the guest came to be

[dusty trench]

Yes

[ripe berry]

and, just like Alex said. NOT a Flashback.

[dusty trench]

Exactly.

[ripe berry]

the two entities haven't become one due to the Well yet
The Red-eyed Crow and the Crowface are still two separate entities, both the Guest, but at the same time, neither are the Guest.

[dusty trench]

Yes

It hasnt fully adapted yet.

We are seeing a glimpse of Guest evolution.

[limber ridge]

Crowface here as in the crowface, shmoeface guy(let's call him shmoeface for now If we think he is the guest)?

[dusty trench]

Alr

That’s what we calling him.

[limber ridge]

That one or someone else?

[dusty trench]

Crowface is already cult so, schmoeface.

[ripe berry]

one Guest, but at the same time, not one Guest, as the two entities that get combined into the Guest, alongside the idea of the Guest, are still separate.

[bright breach]

i dont understand none of that, then again im probably dense.

[dusty trench]

Maybe Guest at Mayak, realizes how messed up this all is a now that it’s too late to revert back and he is Guest, he goes into rage seeking to destroy the town.

Because they already lost themself.

Accepting he is now destructive.

[bright breach]

also, is franklin shadow thing? or the guest? cause when he emerges ffrom the well he is distorted like shadow thing

[limber ridge]

There is a regular crow. There is a Man in robes that looks like cultists but still different.
They merge into one with the purple lightning from mayak(where Franklin fell) and become the guest

[dusty trench]

No the thing is a metaphorical representation of fear in the hello neighbor franchise.

[limber ridge]

If i understand correctly

[bright breach]

ah

whos the man in robes

is he the weird guy you can ffind in hn2 alphas

[limber ridge]

Crowface from episode 1 of season 2. In typical Raven behaviour clip iirc

[dusty trench]

That can explain more on Franklin’s scene being most important other than Theos character later on.

[bright breach]

so franklin is the guest but just partially?

[dusty trench]

No

[limber ridge]

It's most important in season 2 only.

[dusty trench]

There wasn’t a raven involved.

[bright breach]

oh

ohhh

[limber ridge]

I think Franklin just activated the mayak that made the guest maybe?

[bright breach]

so franklins just dead?

[willow depot]

probably

[dusty trench]

But it ca be most important in AS, in a way. Like a hit at season 3 and what we are going to see and learn.

[limber ridge]

Pretty much.

[bright breach]

oh

[dusty trench]

His body used to activate Mayak.

In a way.

[bright breach]

oh\

but also

[limber ridge]

Maybe, but Alex said most important in season 2 only.

[bright breach]

in search and rescue

[dusty trench]

Yea

[bright breach]

why does the guest help aaron

[dusty trench]

I’ve talked about that a bit hold on.

[limber ridge]

He is bored

/j

[bright breach]

is that fffr

oh

[limber ridge]

Goat dark will explain in a Little.

[bright breach]

there is no season 3 coming to WTR right?

[limber ridge]

There is

[bright breach]

Oh?

[limber ridge]

It will supposedly explain the guest and mayak

[bright breach]

i thought they were making a movie

[dusty trench]

They are

Making both

[bright breach]

multi tasking

ah

[limber ridge]

Here

[dusty trench]

S3 is kinda finished by now (I think) but, they need the time and budget. Maybe to refine stuff but they want to make profit off AS so they can have budget for the future, and probably refine some stuff.

[limber ridge]

Season 3 will have a wild reveal related to mayak and guest

[limber ridge]

Doesn't As like make no money

Oh nvm

[dusty trench]

Yea as far as I know.

[bright breach]

oh

wait have they dropped any episodes

im guessing not but am curious

since i quit this fandom ffor a bit

[dusty trench]

For S3, no

[bright breach]

oh

they need to ffocus on nicky more

hes kinda just there

after season 1 hes just a vegetable

also did some random guy and crow get ffused or

[dusty trench]

Guest makes a deal with Aaron because he is trying to get Aaron away from the puzzle masters, and to get him away from Theo to have him suffer more. Getting bad luck to come to Theo. Everyone is coming to Aaron for something and his father is the one holding him close, so take him away from his own benefit. We don’t yet know Guest mot be or goal fully yet, but that’s obviously going to tie in. That’s most of what we can make into with what we see, but ima add more hold on. Ima forward a discussion that ties in.

[limber ridge]

The stage play is actually for Aaron trust

Not for Nicky

[dusty trench]

Btw, puzzle masters are a group of people trying to break the loop in the story and basically try to save everyone in the story. Norman Darby, Jay Roth, Miguel Esposito, Ms. Tillman, Rita, Missing Journalist, Beatrix maybe, later on Enzo as an adult, Archivist from HN2 RBBArchives and HN2 library painting. Ike Gershowitz, who is dead.

[dusty trench]

Wait what about Nicky?

[bright breach]

how do they break the loop

[limber ridge]

His importance is in saving Aaron.

Pretty much.

[dusty trench]

Yea I know. I didn’t mention Nicky when talking about Guest making deal.

[bright breach]

and how do they revive everyone who died

[limber ridge]

I know.
The stage play document says the stage play is for Nicky, but i think it's for Aaron.

[dusty trench]

There are these rings that make sure they remember what the experienced in the last loop, and they tweak events and do things like send characters notes and even configure with tech to further break the loop.

[bright breach]

oh

[limber ridge]

Because as you said pretty much everyone wants Aaron.

[dusty trench]

Like wdym stage play is jay for one character

[bright breach]

wait im learning a lot

[dusty trench]

A stage play yes while everyone is going after Aaron, the stage play is showing throw out the whole story.

Nicky was one, and Aaron is one but just more important.

And can’t forget them trying to bring Enzo in.

[bright breach]

when does the loop start and end

[dusty trench]

Mr. Peterson was experimenting on loop first technically. He expanded more on it.

Hold on imma send some discussions.

[eager island]

i dont think they will in s3

[bright breach]

yea

hes just stuck a vegetable until hes like

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message this discussion is one. Super long but it’s completely worth it.

[bright breach]

18

[dusty trench]

I can add onto Nicky’s importance. After I send these discussions.

Ima send another.

[bright breach]

k

if they get sent into the time loop do they die in the previous timeline

???

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message read down until you see, Mr. Peterson trying to finish the job.

[bright breach]

kkk

[dusty trench]

Lemme know once you done with both.

Ima send more.

[bright breach]

k

i am done

[bright breach]

done

[dusty trench]

Alr

Ima send some more that add on

#lore-discussion message

#lore-discussion message read this discussion down until I get finished with hide and seek.

#lore-discussion message this discussion streak of text by me.

#lore-discussion message even this which adds onto the stuff.

Watch these vids. #lore-discussion message

Even those vids too. #lore-discussion message

And some more vids too lol. #lore-discussion message

[bright breach]

k

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message really cool investigation board.

Which adds onto this. #lore-discussion message

[bright breach]

alright sick

i think thats enough for me today

thank you for the info

[dusty trench]

Your welcome 🙏

Glad to help

[dusty trench]

How many people here think that Guest is going to be a new character? Or previous character we’ve seen or heard in books, AS, or games? Because Alex has said we’ve seen Guest in AS, and we found many things that can be depictions of Guest and person who literally could be Guest. And this can go for the human Guest theory, and the experiment creature theory, which human is also part of if you see discussion above.

[dusty trench]

Question is, how do they discover how thats possible.

And this can add onto more on why it’s portraying Theo in Guest suit, even the portrayal in reset day. Theo is slowly losing his sanity, going down a path of destruction. Seen as a destructive symbol in people’s eyes, like Raven Man. The writers chose to have that scene at Mayak for a reason. They chose to put the moment deeper underground, modified tunnels. And even the explosion, everything going out of control. It’s a hint, that Guest came from the experiments of the well. It like a hint at the ritual process, cult trying to bring Raven Man to life. It’s not that literally in that moment Theo became Guest, it’s using him as a hint for the destructive symbol of Guest, and even experiments. As he slowly lost his sanity and became insane, that was a hint at a more bloodlusted side of Mr. Peterson who is in rage, similar to Guest. Can hint at Guest motive in a way, and even his goal.

#lore-discussion message even these forwarded messages and the message right below can tie into this partially. These tied into many other theories but there is some consistent things that can be used to tie into this theory, and even others too.

[ripe berry]

having now gone through most of the Puzzle Master Audiobook, I have to make a correction to our understanding of Adelle and Roger Peterson's Timeline, one which breaks the current assumption of events that happened in the 1950s-1960s
Adelle and Roger didn't make the Luck Devices, which the Raven Society then used
The Raven Society were using the Luck Devices, which Adelle and Roger managed to get ahold of from one of those nests before it then subsequently disappeared
They then figured out how it worked as the Raven Society started causing them to be arrested for a variety of things including the Golden Apple Factory fire as an excuse to cut their funding.
The tunnels also seem to predate Adelle and Roger
which leaves the question of what's going on with them in the 1950s? Why did they abandon the Mayak in the 1950s if they weren't being arrested for anything until the 1960s? and are they even responsible for the well and stuff, or does that predate them too?

[bright breach]

https://tenor.com/view/ai-baby-laugh-baby-ai-ai-baby-meme-ai-gif-12311734371302704104

[dusty trench]

Well I believe cultist were using stolen Mayak tech to create the luck devices, and the tunnels were probably mines in town, and like underground places for people in town who mined to store stuff in, before it became a place of operation connected to Mayak and home of the Well. Like even connected to the sewage system in town and other stuff that would be connected to mines, as HN2 hints at the mines. Then I believe that it’s possible that in the 1950’s, before Franklin’s incident, Roger and Adele were arrested and blamed for the previous HW incident with kid Gerda, and the other two. That’s why in S2 EP1 Franklin asks who would he go home to without Theo there, Dad? Signifying his parents leafy in a hurry after the HW incident and that they are in jail, it was too dangerous and they didn’t want to be blamed for it, but they went to jail instead.

[dusty trench]

And I been had this mindset.

[bright breach]

dark l

[dusty trench]

Wassup

[bright breach]

no offense but is this your job or sum

cause

this is some detication

[dusty trench]

lol, I don’t take any offense to that, it’s just funny.

[bright breach]

okay

is finch a only secret neighbor thing

or will they join them eventually in wtr

[dusty trench]

He’s in S&R and in AS

[dusty trench]

Joining the S3

[bright breach]

oh

but is she not like rude to nicky and trinity?

[dusty trench]

AS is an exaggerated versions of past events in Trinity’s mindset. Her memories are distorted by trauma, making everything that she and her friends have done to Nicky exaggerated. She is going through what Nicky went through. That’s why in AS stuff is the way it is.

[bright breach]

oh

[dusty trench]

Also connected to loops in the way that they’re trapped in loop and that impacts their fears more. Trapping them in constant moments of the past, reminding them of the events that traumatize them.

[ripe berry]

finished Puzzle Master
I think it clicked for me why in the Stage Play idea Theodore gives up trying to save his family and instead decides to act his way through everything before snapping and trying to flood the town
the events of Puzzle Master was his chance to set things right. He had managed to get ahold of a luck device and was going to save his family, but Aaron ends up getting it stolen, and it gets caught when the tunnels collapse, meaning Theodore's unable to fix the tragedy that befell his family
the tragedy the Raven Society caused.

but Theodore needs time
time to set up the conditions of the original timeloop, after all, things already changed when he did this one. Ms. Esposito is now dead, Trinity's now in town, Lucy Yi no longer vanishes but instead outright dies, the tunnels are gone, a good chunk of the Raven Society's arrested... who knows what else could change if the loop's caused under different conditions.
So he and the others have to now purposefully set things up so that the events are as close as possible to how they originally went, while also setting up the stuff he needs to cause the loop under the Mayak, where the tunnels once were.

But having to live through everything again just makes Theodore snap. He can't fix things. he can't change the past. All... all he can do is build a new future. Theodore sets things up with a different intention now. no, he's not going to save his family. he... he's going to make the town learn what he's felt. He... he'll take what they don't deserve... he just needs to hold out a little longer... set up things at the GAAP... he'd make the town pay. he'd make Raven Brooks pay for his suffering... the town that's caused him so much pain... the town that took everything from him... that made him lose his daughter... his wife... his friend Ike... his parents... and even Franklin.

[dusty trench]

And he betrayed the puzzle masters. Becoming like The Raven Man, unintentionally. Becoming what he fear would capture him. He wants it’s running away from his fears and bad luck chasing him. He was running away from what he would become. Becoming like the thing he fears most.

[ripe berry]

Theodore couldn't move on from his fears, from his loss. No matter how much he tried, he couldn't change anything. and he couldn't face it. As said in the Guidebook, "In the end, the Neighbor could never really escape the horrors he unleashed on his own family, and so it's his fate to "live" with what he did in a house alone for eternity." Still hiding from his fears and unable to confront them, still trapped in grief... and with no one left to turn to.

[dusty trench]

Fire explanation of his character.

Love it.

One tragic villain.

[ripe berry]

But at the same time, he's resigned himself to it. he accepts being the boogeyman of the town. Taking what people don't deserve just like the very Raven Man he fears and hates for being the symbol of what caused ALL of this to his family. In trying to run from his fears, he became the very thing he feared. An omen to the town. a once kind and caring thing now twisted into the exact opposite of what it once was... just like the Guest/Raven Man itself.

[dusty trench]

His experiments and curiosity’s got in the way of him. His dream reality that nothing would go wrong, didn’t happen. It was shattered by the cold hearted truth. The truth being that he caused a ton of this. Manipulating the environment around him for his own goal, his own mission. Even bringing his family into all this. He tried to make it up, but gave up. Slowly losing care for others, and his heart becoming more colder, leaving his mind more vulnerable to fears.

His fears, hatred, and choices, all took him over.

[dusty trench]

Yes exactly.

[ripe berry]

or as said in the books, "How can I rest while my brain is broken" (I think, I don't remember the exact quote)

[dusty trench]

I think I remember something like that.

And even if that’s not the exact, it’s true.

He went insane, couldn’t operate his brain, couldn’t operate his own mind. His fears and everything else did.

[ripe berry]

He lived through it so many times in an attempt to fix everything that he lost himself

the time loop stuff explains why Theodore is more insane in the books then the games and the few clips of pre-Diane's Death Ted in the AS
In the games/AS, he hasn't lived through things a million times in an attempt to fix things yet. This is his first time experiencing everything.

[dusty trench]

Ooh

[ripe berry]

hence why he's fine with his family being at the GAAP in the AS, but begs them not to be there in the Books

[dusty trench]

And this can add more onto Trinity experiencing what Nicky experienced too. And why she would be portraying that.

And even why it’s just Lucy dies instead of disappears. It’s revealing the events of what actually happened as the loops get broken more, and not influence people’s minds as much as it did.

So the future can unfold.

[ripe berry]

He seems genuinely panicked when Lucy Yi disappears from the ride in the AS
but, to copy a quote from the Aaron Trilogy
"While everyone else is in panic mode, he’s not."

[dusty trench]

Because he already experienced it.

No one else had a ring.

He did.

Also,

He’s operating loop.

[ripe berry]

this in itself is further proof of time loops
AS and Puzzle Master seem to paint completely different pictures of Theodore's reactions to the GAAP and the Incident

[dusty trench]

Exactly

[dusty trench]

But some game he might have, hence HE, SN, and S&R maybe.

Bro

[ripe berry]

<@&1162799252192379000>

[dusty trench]

<@&1162799252192379000>

This is the longest it’s lasted

[ripe berry]

anyways, where we we.

[dusty trench]

👆

[ripe berry]

yeah
Hello Engineer is his first experience with creating the loops (outside of possibly the Island from the 1970s)

[dusty trench]

Which sandbox map most likely being island

[ripe berry]

the ending of Hello Engineer is his success, gives him the hope that maybe he can fix things.

[dusty trench]

You mean them escaping island, further breaking the loop.

[ripe berry]

I mean, they must have been in a loop
I doubt the state inventor's contest would let them disappear for about a month and still be ongoing to give them a trophy

[dusty trench]

I know they are in loop, but they are also transported and they escape. But yea them being there would give Theo hope for a bit.

[ripe berry]

so not only did Theodore make a loop
he proved that the outcome of said loop could change given enough time

[dusty trench]

And he with him having way more hope and more happy worried about his goal, then he would ignore all possible bad things happening like safety features on rides. But then everything collapse on him since he hasn’t been paying too much attention.

Experiencing all of the bad luck again.

[ripe berry]

he thought he could fix things, only to go insane as again and again everything plays out, sometimes even with him having to guarentee they happen just so he could go through it all over again.

[dusty trench]

But it’s his dream imagination that blinded him, ignoring all other causes of things that can happen. And it all just looped back onto him. And he would go insane.

[ripe berry]

leading to what I was saying earlier

[dusty trench]

And looping to this.

It’s all on e big loop.

Representing your choices, fears, and other issues all coming back to you in the end.

[ripe berry]

and no matter how much gets added to the lore
it all loops back around to the story of the Peterson Family

[dusty trench]

Roger and Adele accidentally left the foundation for a horrible outcome.

No matter what, you can’t just have time and the world in your hands, even if you dream it. Time has to move on its own, the future must unfold.

[ripe berry]

Peterson is still the core of the franchise
Peterson, his family, and his own actions.

[ripe berry]

and Theodore's attempts to change the past only made everything worse.

what's even worse for Theodore is that his attempts to fix the past almost worked.

[ripe berry]

if Aaron hadn't left the device to be stolen by Gordon Cleave, Theodore could've saved his family.

Theodore could've fixed things... but it seems fate itself always has a way of restoring the balance.

(metaphorically of course)

[dusty trench]

But in that way, it’s still Theo’s fault in the moment. He was blinded by him having a bit, too much hope. To the point where it was all blinded by his dream. Not paying attention to anything, leaving safety features disregarded. Not paying attention to his wife and kids. He could’ve filled them in, but was too scared of losing them. That they would see him as a monster or delusional. So he kept to himself, and only himself. And this shows the problems with that too. He could’ve prevented it. But his own arrogance for in the way. And when he became inane, he couldn’t operate himself or his brain even further after realizing what’s going to happen. So he just gives up. Not paying mind to his family, becoming more mentally unstable and insane, such as Maritza scene with Theo, did you see her fly. He’s just lost it, new plan was to just end it. Destroy everything in town, and the people that got in his way, even if they aren’t cultist. And he accepted that the future outcomes this way, that he was now a destructive boogeyman in town, like The Raven Man. And we get a look at his true more darker side of n GN2, as he attacks Pris and Regina with a huge metal pipe. Not paying attention to what he was actually doing, and just crashing out. So either way, it was false hope in the end. He tricked himself into having that mindset, and it all lopped back into him.

[ripe berry]

and in the end, Theodore has no one left
his family? dead
Ike? dead
the other "Puzzle Masters"? he betrayed them all

Even people like Regina who tried to help him he ends up pushing away as he devolves deeper into his own madness

[dusty trench]

I’m a metaphorical way, The Raven Man and just the dark bad omen Raven symbol in general, did posses him. It took over his mind, everything falling back onto him. Turning him into someone he isn’t.

He didn’t want to face the consequences, and faced it all on Aaron in rage, anger, and fear. Even confusion, thinking he had everything solved. But nope, it all fell back on him. The same tragedy that befell his family came again.

[ripe berry]

gotta love how time loops makes just about everything clearer. It and perspectives turn just about every contradiction or impossibility into evidence points, and fixes the seemingly inconsistent characterization of pre-Diane's death Ted between the Books/HND and Rest of the Games/AS. Even if Time Loops isn't the answer for everything, it's by far the best one in my opinion

Perspectives by itself can only really do so much before it feels like it's a stretch

[ripe berry]

wonder how many more inconsistencies can easily be turned into evidence points for time loops like how Ted's characterization during the GAAP Incident in the AS makes his characterization in Puzzle Master even further pushed into "he definitely knows things he shouldn't at this point in time, and therefore is a time loop"

(...remember when people thought the AS was retconning everything?)

although, if HN3 Prototype 3 is anything like the full game will be
there might be one more time loop after Reset Day

[dusty trench]

And that why they work so well together.

Creating more points to uncover the true timeline.

[ripe berry]

one that causes the GAAP to remain standing instead of being bought out and turned into a supermarket by Earth Pro
one that causes the Golden Apple Corporation to stay afloat and open their own supermarket instead before branching out
a loop likely caused by the Raven Society themselves, or what's left of them after Puzzle Master.

[ripe berry]

Perspectives is for differences between AS and Games
Time Loops is for differences between Games and Books
Both can be used for differences between AS and Books

[dusty trench]

Exactly, since they have gotten Mr. Peterson out of that goal of time manipulation, and they took the info, now they have control over this loops.

[dusty trench]

But both can be used for all.

[ripe berry]

I was saying where they're mainly used atm
since both Games and AS are the original timeline, perspectives is the only thing that can be used

[dusty trench]

Oh yea I see wym. Like asf rn mainly. Just some media show certain parts more straight forward.

[ripe berry]

Time Loops is the main thing for Games and Books, for why dates don't match up, why Theodore acts so differently, etc.

and between AS and Books
It's actually mainly Time Loops aswell for things like when Trinity moves into Raven Brooks or Mrs. Esposito being alive in the AS but not in the Books

but perspective stuff can be thrown in aswell for Games/AS and Books, but only to a certain extent before it feels like you're trying too hard to make a square peg fit a round hole (example: Perspectives can never explain the Trinity moving into Raven Brooks at a completely different time thing without sounding like you're grasping at straws)

[dusty trench]

That basically just shows perspective and loops being connected to each other in all medias. Like loops is what’s actually going on, perspective is like the metaphors and stuff each media shows. Like the thing, and even Guest in things like S&R. Like we figure out metaphors in characters perspectives in medias so we can later understand the main picture of what going on such as the loop and tech leading us there. And then we can figure out the full picture. Each media is different, because it’s kinda like folklore.

[dusty trench]

Well in a way it can. Like Trinity is in a way experiencing what Nicky experienced in her view. She is new to town and curious, like Nicky. Everything that’s happening is exaggerated in her view, and she views Nicky being kidnapped. It’s from loop, but it impacts her perspective since it’s also fogged by fear. In this way, putting herself in Nicky’s shoes. She feels bad for why she did, and we see in other media’s that her and her friends redeem themselves. Further breaking the loop so the events of act 3 can happen, he ca get over his fears. And Aaron obviously is the main one but we can’t ignore rescue squad. The loops impacting her mind and making her fears worse and twisting her mindset. Making her lose track of time. The loops are impacting her mindset, hence why there’s cell phones. Which I’ve mentioned before, can also connect to loops. The more she is trapped, her mind gets stuck in the past. Reminding of her fears, mistakes, and other traumatic events that happened in the past.

[ripe berry]

AS Pilot, while non-canon, would've been another loop, probably somewhere between the Games and the Books

and in the AS Pilot, yet again, as if fate itself gets in the way, when Theodore tries to conduct a luck ritual it gets interrupted, with him failing to fix his family's bad luck streak

[dusty trench]

Yes

[ripe berry]

but yeah
using just one or just the other will lead you to dead ends

Neither by themselves can explain how the AS fits with everything

Only perspectives leaves things like Mrs. Esposito being randomly alive in the AS but dead in the books as big problems
Only time loops is going to lead you into creating a contradiction with the AS simultaneously having to be before everything... yet at the same time having to be in a loop due to the Phones thing.

y'know
off topic but I wish someone would make like- a youtube series or something of the HN Books' audiobooks but animated (possibly even in the AS Style)

[dusty trench]

Omg, that would be so peak

I need that to be a thing

Even the theme songs at begging of them can be like the intro.

I can just imagine the reset day one being an intro.

Maybe animated in Carly’s artstyle, or AS style would be cool too.

Wait that’s actually such a fire idea.

[dusty trench]

The thing that can show is Ms. Esposito being represented in AS as a way to represent Enzo and Maritza wishing they had their mom. And can show the similarities of Enzo and Maritza to Aaron and Mya. Just two completely different times of dying and their friendship ended. Just further showing loops impacting characters fears. Bringing in the mom as a way of playing with their life experiences. It’s all impacting their minds blinding everything, which is why it’s all like folklore where things are different. But we solve those metaphors in characters perspectives so we can see the bigger picture, which is loops. The loops playing with people’s minds.

[dusty trench]

Maybe this can add more onto the loops affecting people’s minds. Maybe something at Mayak can impact their minds in a way, connected to the loops too. Maybe as to why they get brainwashed after loop, unless you have a ring.

#lore-discussion message this can tie in too

[dusty trench]

Maybe the rings work like obviously they are programmed to make sure you don’t get brainwashed by loop, but maybe just not get brainwashed or too impacted by the Mayak power as a whole. And form what ever see you probably don’t even need it fully on, but probably just on you, but having it on is th best way since it’s a ring. Like it prevents you from getting that Mayak shock to brainwash you. Maybe at the end of each loop, like when it gets reset a shock happens that hits you and brainwashed you, wiping your memory. This isn’t to say all perspective portrayal is became of Mayak, but just saying tha Mayak impacts it a ton like with loops mainly. And, maybe the loops have some memory saving thing, connected to characters minds. Like connected as to why characters remember stuff that happen, or have a feeling of bad stuff happening even without ring, such as Nicky. And the can prove that browny’s theory can still stand, about Maritza Enzo Trinity and Nicky. But we just have some more clarification of the timeline standpoint of this. Nicky’s friends still treated him well, not the best. But books since that’s after previous loops, it shows it differently. Showing more on who was closer to Nicky, and hints of the other’s presence in a way like Seth and Reuben who likely hung out with Finch, because Finch wanted to be accepted by the wider medium in school and she slowly became more rude. AS exaggerates that more, since loop impacted the perspective of Trinity so much having her traumatic events and fears being fogged and portrayed in a way that ties into her perspective. Her and her friends experiencing the same feeling Nicky felt, of being trapped by their fears. So they have to redeem themselves by Puzzle Masters having Aaron help them, so the loop can break further and further and Nicky can get over his trauma. Tho ca even tie more into how Nicky knows Aaron and his friends freed him to battle his fears in the future.

[dusty trench]

As the loops break, the characters slowly start to remember the past, and realize the truth. This can show more that the loops impacting characters minds, but in a deeper way. Maybe the loops which connected to Mayak tech after the shock or thing that makes characters brainwashed after a loop, their memory gets saved to something into like the Mayak tech and machinery. Takes what they remember and learned and save it to the program that makes the loop function, just using characters minds be under the control of this loop, like little puppets. As the loop break however, characters start to remember more stuff and things tart getting pieced together for them. And why the rings exist is cause well, Mr. Peterson obviously needs to remember if he wants to control loop, same with cultist later on. And Puzzle Masters obviously have to remember the events so they ca figure out how to stop all this. As they break the loop, characters start to remember more of what happened. The knowledge and memory starting to get put back in their minds, so they can piece everything together and realize the truth. Each event and things that happened in each loop all forming into one in characters minds, so they timeline can be restored and fixed into one. Fitting everything together, and fixing wha was corrupted. But you can’t fix all tragedies, and characters just need to face the consequences of their actions, even if they aren’t fully evil or went insane. And this can show perspective and loops coming together into one way more than before, as this reminded me to when Nikita said that act 1 is the actual events. But it’s different from book which is afterwards, and eve different from AS. This is showing the loop impacting characters minds even more. As yes, this was the actual event in loop. But, there are still many ways to get in basement, and that doesn’t mean the map and house can be portrayed to fit the characters perspective and mindset.

[dusty trench]

The house in act 1 is stretched to represent the character being a child, but also to represent Nicky’s fears too in the house, almost like the house is alive as said. While in alpha 2 the house is the same model and layout, but in the way where it fits Nicky as an adult. Further showing the alphas being used as ideas, things being tweaked to fit the narrative. Why Nicky trilogy events have act 1 stuff spread out is because of Nicky’s fears fogging the event more in that loop. And the loop is further impacting his mind. Then in act 2 of HN1 it portrays Nicky mindset of still feeling trapped in the basement, (which I believe is while he is in mental facility) but Aaron interrupts the nightmare and frees Nicky. Leaving the path for the future, so he can get over his fears and trauma. He knows that and realizes later on as an adult, because the loops slowly breaking and the events of the story are being pieced together and not corrupted. Character minds being fixed and learn the truth, as we Eve see in HND Nicky is more curious on what actually happened. The full picture has to unfold in character minds, so they can realize the full timeline and regain control of their mindset. And not have it be corrupted by the loop so fear can take control of it.

[limber ridge]

What If reset day guest portrayal is inverse of GN2 portrayal and Ted in the guest outift actually shows how Ted is a victim to the guest's manipulation or of what he represents.

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message can add onto this

[limber ridge]

Also luck devices are said to be so old they might as well be ancient.

[limber ridge]

I wonder If there's anything on him we could determine to be a ring.

[limber ridge]

I remember back like after ep 11 someone from the team of mods that made curse retold made a theory that some symbols in the book were of an ancient bird species

Of course as of now the guest to be a remainer of an ancient bird species is pretty much Impossible because guest only appears in Season 3

[dusty trench]

I remember that too, they posted picture of skull in book.

[limber ridge]

But... What if they did exist, that's what the guest symbol is based on, and that's also the creators of luck devices

I went off the Deep rail haven't i

[limber ridge]

I mean that as in the guest from reset day is the guest and Theodore from inside the suit is a representation of him falling victim to the guest symbol and The guest's doing

[limber ridge]

The only way that'd even be possible is If he's ancient through how much time has looped lol.

[dusty trench]

Which can add onto ravens society being interested in the weather of raven brooks and the amount of ravens, seeing if there can be a connection and if they can uncover the truth. So they founded the town there. And the created the Raven Man festival. And they probably had the idea of like luck device machines and stuff, but not for horrible reason. So they contacted people famous for meteorology, or they reached out to them. Adele and Roger. They slowly started to become greedy and stole tech from them so they can build these luck devices and machines that they thought of, but the goals and motives changed and became more twisted. Because of greed, curiosity, and later serve for control and curiosity of playing with life and death, and how far they ca push things. Forming a cult around the culture of the town that was once peaceful, but became evil corporate entity to drive people into this trap. The raven man culture is based around stuff at town, and other folklore of ravens apart do it too. And even luck crystals or gems, which is a real folklore thing. There’s like Jade, Aventurine, Tigers eye, Amethyst, Citrine, etc. people see those crystals as gem stones of luck. And cult could have some, and even had them back when town was founded or before. They were curious in the town and tied it to folklore, which was very common in that time period especially, as they didn’t have much tech for the stuff we have now. But they have probably been researching, and created a model for this device they have been thinking of. Later on, Roger and Adele came to town and their intentions stated to change and they became more greedy, and stole tech from Mayak to make the luck devices with the model that they had thought of. Based on these luck crystals, but used in different ways. It’s like manipulating folklore and culture to demonize and corrupt it for their own greed, taking advantage of the cycle of life and death. The Raven Man festival is one very symbol that’s corrupted.

[dusty trench]

I know, I was adding on

And maybe if so with ancient creatures, these ancient humanoid raven creatures have existed but went extinct. And they are curious in trying to bring them back, and the Raven Man is the symbol they use for them. Once as a symbol of hope, before being tarnished into a cult worshipping thing that has been demonized.

[limber ridge]

Roger and Adele aren't anywhere close to ancient. That's kind of a problem.

[dusty trench]

I know, I’m not saying they are

I’m talking like they came way later

[limber ridge]

Oh

But luck devices are said to be close to ancient.

Wait hold on.

Think i remember having a discussion with Mike over this kinda stuff

This is where it started. The conclusion was devices contain crystals. Crystals are the cause of weather.
Cult steals mayak Tech and combines it with crystals to get good luck.

[dusty trench]

Ravens society were already interested in town way before here it was created in 1845, and they have been interest in why the place is the way it is with weather and ravens. And they used folklore as symbols for this stuff, including luck symbols since ravens are associated with that. And thy wonder of weather can be connected to luck and ravens too, so they began research. They made a model for luck devices, but it wasn’t like how it is later on. And later, either from reaching out or them just being curious and coming, Roger and Adele come to the town, and slowly ravens society started to become more greedy and decided to steal tech to make the luck devices but instead have a different motive for them now. And maybe, they formed the raven man symbol based on ancient creatures, and the goal is too bring back these ancient creatures, but then they began to just start worshipping The Raven Man symbol and formed the culture of the town among it evil, corporate, and cult like based around playing with life and death, to get fortune, fame, and money. All selling their soul to the demonized symbol, using it as a way to trick people with their dirty corporate work, only to get themselves tricked as Guest does t even like them.

[dusty trench]

And that’s what I mention right above with the luck symbols.

Crystals of good luck. I mentioned a few names above too.

These crystals are real btw, and are ancient.

Ravens society collected these crystals, and with stolen Mayak tech began experimenting with them. Trying to create the luck model once was a symbol but planned to be a device for different reasons. Now, used for evil.

Later on, hid them behind golden apple coins, another symbol to trick people with their corporate work. Crystals, maybe being apart of coins, in a way.

[dusty trench]

I talked to Techologic about Guest and we brought up ancient creatures idea.

[limber ridge]

So where the timeline starts as of now is literally: back in ancient times a species of man-like ravens was born.

Ravens?

Crows?

[dusty trench]

But extinct, maybe killed off by humans.

[limber ridge]

Something of that sort

[dusty trench]

Hints of them still remain, ravens society maybe finding skulls of them in town.

[limber ridge]

What If it's greed. Like they started gatekeeping resourses and stopped helping each other and ended up dying.

So it ties into the themes they wanted for HN2 and AS

Greed

And how it prevents Love

[dusty trench]

And they use raven’s and humans to bring them back, but instead now to bring some demonized symbol that they worship. Taking advantage of life of humans and animals to bring back this.

[dusty trench]

Hmm

[limber ridge]

Alex said they wanted the story to be about Greed on one side and love on the other.

HN2

[dusty trench]

Honestly, you can see those themes throughout the entire story in a way.

[limber ridge]

Well pretty much

The side with greed is the cult

The side with love is Aaron and Ted

Even in the show, Ted tells Trinity "how far would you go for the ones You love" or something like that.

[dusty trench]

And then there is also freedom elements in HN. Freeing Aaron from basement, freeing Nicky from his fears. Making sure the time line it’s being controlled and let it flow itself. Letting people’s minds free.

[dusty trench]

Loops right back to this

To how this discussion started.

[dusty trench]

Some characters hearts how ever get colder as they lose the things you love.

Sometimes people choose to take away others freedom for their own.

Just to get to the things they love.

letting false reality taking them over, and slowly not paying attention to the bad things around.

#lore-discussion message ties to this

After realizing that not everything is possible even with freedom, it’s their choice on what they want to do with their future.

They can choose to give up and either go down a destructive road or make up for a new future. Or some will force their way to getting to the possibility of what they want.

What they feel is most important. Control, fortune, power, money, fame. Things that some people just feel are most important. Their minds being twisted in different ways. Mr. Peterson is almost like the Raven Man symbol in a way. And I’ve a peaceful symbol that didn’t bring any harm, later being tarnished by bad luck and going down a destructive road. And it shows that greedy corporates people can ruin the lives of others, trying to take advantage of other lives, fears, mistakes, and even most loved things. Taking away what they loved most, and even their freedom to ruin their lives even further. Even the target of someone who lost everything they loved, getting their fears played with and they make desperate decision. And when they think their is hope, they get blinded by the dream reality of what’s to come and stop paying attention completely to reality, just for everything to go wrong. Again, and again, and again. Slowly reliving the trauma, impacting their mindset having them trapped in the moment of that past, it can reach to their breaking point. Creating a recipe to result to something bad.

[limber ridge]

Franklin survived all that lightning, realised he is superhuman and becomes the guest later on no way...

[neat phoenix]

An Alive Corpse..

Poor Isaac must be traumatized

If this plot Twist happens in Season 3 then that would be crazy

[limber ridge]

So all the puzzle masters we know of:
Norman Darby(possible leader?)
Theodore(formerly)
MJ
Archivist
Ike Gershowitz
Jay Roth
Rita Ryland
Miguel Esposito
Quentin
Beatrix
Marcia Tillman
Enzo (later on)
Maybe Smith.

Hey now that i think about both MJ and Archivist are the only ones that have to be referred to by their role names rather than proper names, other than Smith who is possibly MJ (though Hatcher Y. Wingate is a possible name for MJ).

[limber ridge]

Tbf it's kinda what most people were thinking of back when the flashback was released. I doubt it's the truth too.

[neat phoenix]

Hm

[neat phoenix]

The guest will reveal himself at the end of s3

[limber ridge]

Yes

I feel like episode 18 will be the guest episode

[limber ridge]

A creepy mothman standing around a town he's just destroyed.

[limber ridge]

I'm not sure if that is still canon

[dusty trench]

Well it’s in, every game he has appeared in

[limber ridge]

Really? I thought it was just in a concept art or something of that sort

[dusty trench]

No, his first model has it but it’s not animated. And HN2 model has it and you can actually see it more clearly.

[wanton roost]

it def is imsure

[dusty trench]

Even in HE on graffiti art he has tongue

[wanton roost]

its a snake

[dusty trench]

lol

He’s a alien

[wanton roost]

so nickys religion is true

holy aliens

[dusty trench]

Human alien raven race of snakes confirmed

[limber ridge]

Broski just has a Snake living in his mouth.

[dusty trench]

Alien’s y’all, Nicky is truth

He knows what we can’t

[limber ridge]

Nicky was right

That's why he has the note about the guest in his room in SaR

[wanton roost]

it would be so cool in s3 if he tweaks out and openms his beak wide and the guest screams with the tongue

thatd be scary

[dusty trench]

Because the aliens reached out to him, guys are we seeing the picture, /j

But nah for tho, he has a tongue

[limber ridge]

Browny why do you decide to say the guest's identity not on Lore discussion?

[wanton roost]

cuz the other ppl that arent in lore stuff needa know that

kid

im the mayor of raven brooks

[wanton roost]

since its long it cant be human right or maybe it is and it messed up that human

[dusty trench]

Experiment theory (maybe)

Human and raven

With the Well playing a role

[limber ridge]

Tbf the tongue doesn't exactly set it in stone that he isn't just a guy because he also does crazy stuff in SaR.

For all we know Quentin is tricked into believing the guest is a creature

Experiment theory works though still

[dusty trench]

Well that stuff is like more metaphorical portrayal, but it can show in exaggeration that he is more than human.

[limber ridge]

Hard to say for sure

[dreamy sluice]

wait was that real

[limber ridge]

The tongue or the kid im the Mayor of Raven Brooks stuff?

It's a nope for the second part

Since when does he have a tongue?

[dusty trench]

All games he has tongue, HN2 it’s more present

[limber ridge]

Apparently he's had one for at least 5 years from what i see

[wanton roost]

what if thats the guest and aaron merged to one guest and this is acrually a small beak

[dusty trench]

Yea. In his old model however, while you can see it in his mouth if you look close, it’s not too present because it’s super dark colored. HE is the first time we see pink color tongue on graffiti art.

[wanton roost]

ohhhhhhhh

[dusty trench]

Oh wait nvm, it is different color just super dark.

[limber ridge]

Hmm

[wanton roost]

guest looking a bit fat there

[limber ridge]

Looks interesting

Did he have a tongue in Hello Guest?

I imagine no but yk

[wanton roost]

i dont think so nah

its hard to see its all black inside so

[dusty trench]

Sketchfab animation of his HGP animation of him being scared.

[inland folio]

im pretty sure its there too

but in HG its so dark you cant even see it

[dusty trench]

It is

[limber ridge]

Oh

[inland folio]

ok wait no yeah he does have a toungue

[dusty trench]

This one if from HGP animation, and they kept the exact model ever since

[wanton roost]

really? i cant see it

[inland folio]

look in the hn2 alpha 1 community posts

wait ill find it for you

[wanton roost]

oh i guess it does

[limber ridge]

If he had one back then it means tongue isn't necesarily a non-human atribute

[dusty trench]

It never moved tho

[dusty trench]

There is a screenshot of it not being just in the mouth, in his HN2 model.

I gotta find it.

[limber ridge]

It moves?!

[wanton roost]

thanks lol

[limber ridge]

Did it move in HN2 alphas?

[dusty trench]

There was a screenshot of it not being just placed in beak

[dusty trench]

No

[dusty trench]

I have to find it first

I believe I sent it here a while ago but no text

He was doing his classic pose, but it had his tongue more present not placed in beak.

[limber ridge]

If HG had one and HN2 alphas also have one, both of which don't move, then tongue doesn't really mean all that much.
Can be a hint still though.

Because HN2 Alpha guest isn't a human i'm pretty sure

[dusty trench]

Yea

[dusty trench]

It was like representation of storm in a way

Yellow-press

[limber ridge]

Yes.

So we have 4 guests according to current theory, in a way.

1. Symbol/idea guest: Examples of this one would be the mascot of the GAAP and symbols in the books, as well the guest that strangled Ted in GN2. Just the idea of the guest that is used as a symbol of both the town and loss.
2. Shmoeface: human part of guest.
3. Crow/raven: birdly part of guest
4. Full/real Guest: the one we see in HN2, reset day, HN3, etc. Basically the OG guest. Shmoeface and The crow/raven merged into one.

[dusty trench]

Yea I like this

[limber ridge]

We could even go 1 step extra and Say the Neighbor Guest counts here but i wouldn't count him.
Maybe You could split symbol guest in 2: 1 is the GAAP mascot and 2 is the representation of grief and loss.

[dusty trench]

I feel like they can be the same. Since it’s using symbol of Guest on a different character still the same.

[limber ridge]

Yeah i agree

[wanton roost]

I wish we got Tom (game theory) to analyse hello neighbor books and season 2 and throw theories out so we can have a full episode of guest episode like we had with petersons stick together

[limber ridge]

Did Mattpatt even make any theories back in his video or did he just say some from the books

Genuinely can't remember

[dusty trench]

He theorized that the pilot isn’t canon, but didn’t really theorize stuff mostly analyzed.

[limber ridge]

Hmm

[dusty trench]

He pointed out more simple stuff and ideas of the early alphas.

[limber ridge]

Oh wait i think there was a theory about the Mya "ritual'' from there

[wanton roost]

He just analysed and some theories

I think smrh about the pilot green crystal thing

[dusty trench]

That too, he pointed out doll representation in HN and talked about raven spiritual connection and tied it to voodoo doll’s which are connected to playing with life and death, like cult with the luck devices.

[wanton roost]

How it makes crows like shiny things matpat Einstein stuff

[dusty trench]

He said those are the are luck devices.

[limber ridge]

And if we get lucky, the most important scene from season 3.

[dusty trench]

Ooh even the Guest horn in HG has a tongue

Representing Guest beak

[limber ridge]

It's a horn... Hmm

[dusty trench]

Used to get Guest away

[limber ridge]

It blows

Wind also blows

The truth was in front of us all along

[limber ridge]

Wind is from storms

[dusty trench]

Guest, is, storm

[wanton roost]

Hmm we barely know it maybe its in mayak underground

[limber ridge]

Luck devices?

They were found in large nests on trees

[dusty trench]

By Roger and Adele

[limber ridge]

Possibly a mix of crystals from underground and tech from mayak.

[dusty trench]

But are connected too Mayak

Jade, Aventurine, Tigers eye, Amethyst, Citrine, etc. . Crystals of luck.

And, ANCIENT btw

[limber ridge]

Do crystals themselves have any effect over fortune?

[dusty trench]

They are crystals that people believe give them luck.

Ravens society probably experimented with them and by connecting stolen Mayak tech with it.

[limber ridge]

I personally think crystals on their own only effect weather

Because otherwise why would the cult need devices too?

[dusty trench]

Wdym

They connected Mayak tech to the crystals of luck, to create the luck devices model.

They probably had a model since they were already interested in weather and the amount of ravens in town. They researched and got luck crystals became ravens are often symbolized with luck, and they wanted to see if it ca tie to weather.

[limber ridge]

Crystals without tech probably only affected weather, when mixed with tech they might also affect luck.

[ripe berry]

It seems to be a mix of the devices and the rituals during the storms (possibly some other stuff too?)

[dusty trench]

At first it was for different reason like curiosity, but then overtime became corporate and greedy.

[dusty trench]

No crystals in real life can affect weather.

[limber ridge]

Really?

[dusty trench]

I mean if they pull something still, it would have to make sense

[wanton roost]

Huh maybe the cult threw Em?

[dusty trench]

Yea

[limber ridge]

Probably

[dusty trench]

lol

[wanton roost]

They'd find it very useful if its smth to do with Luck maybe it just doesn't work anymore

maybe the book they took tells them how to make another one of those things lol

Cuz really we don't know why they need it or atleast idk why they need it

[dusty trench]

And Peterson has a ton in the bag, they stole tons of those.

[limber ridge]

Maybe

[ripe berry]

they also seemingly had them in the form of the Golden Apple Coins in the 1960s
because I believe Peterson's Black Book in the AS is a version of Roger and Adelle's notes

[wanton roost]

They can already just malfunction the Park it's not like the book gives them super powers to fly on a ferris wheel

[limber ridge]

The book seems to Tell them how to activate the Well

[dusty trench]

Yes those are luck devices too

[limber ridge]

Just in reverse

[ripe berry]

The Forest Protectors put them up there seemingly for safe keeping

[wanton roost]

Like spare parts in it maybe?

[wanton roost]

I still don't get the well

What well.

[limber ridge]

The one în which Franklin fell

[dusty trench]

They were full on coins, but could’ve been unfinished. Theo was seeing if he ca repair used luck devices, that’s why he is collecting them. Also, for his investigation on cult like how much people they kill. And their targets

[ripe berry]

and also seems to have notes relating to everything regarding the Raven Society

[wanton roost]

That's. A well?

I thought that was a big pit hole

[limber ridge]

Yes. And possibly time loop/manipulation with the hourglasses

Basically anything cult, mayak, luck

[dusty trench]

But idk if those are all Roger and Adele’s notes. Like maybe the book and it has their notes, but Theodore expanded on them.

[ripe berry]

at least that's what the Ravens call it

[limber ridge]

"the Well is gurgling, almost ready for you know what" is what the cultist said. What else would he mean?

[wanton roost]

Seeing this wants to see that luck device on the pilot again I'll brb

[dusty trench]

It’s getting ready for the ritual

[dusty trench]

K

[wanton roost]

That's weird like they see that purple strike as water? Lol

[wanton roost]

A well with a bucket in the middle with water underneath maybe some dumb girl will drown there idk man

[limber ridge]

Why does the cult need to both use coins and rig the rides manually?

[limber ridge]

Finch?

[dusty trench]

Rig the rides again, and face it on Mr. Peterson. Since they want to prove that there was something wrong with rides.

[limber ridge]

Ohh

How would they even do that though? He's arested

[willow depot]

@ripe berry since you're the MJ guy, been staring at a wall an thinking

If the "Quentin is MJ's replacement" thing still canon doesn't that mean that MJ is already "dead" to the public by Quentin's cameo in AS

Meaning that under MJ=MITH MITH is still alive by his S2E4 cameo

[dusty trench]

Yes

[ripe berry]

yeah
he's in hiding like Norman Darby due to getting too close to them

[willow depot]

Helps target the bad luck sorta?

Maybe

[dusty trench]

And he would likely be a puzzle master like Norman too.

[ripe berry]

even so, it gives an idea of what Roger and Adelle were doing in the 1950s-1960s

[willow depot]

Like yea they are getting bad luck but the odds of them getting it at the GAAP is increased

Because they're super faulty

[dusty trench]

Showing that they were interested in time too, ever since Franklins death.

[dusty trench]

Yes

[wanton roost]

accurately might happen

[limber ridge]

I wonder how do the ride accidents help the well gurgle

[limber ridge]

Accurately... Some might say Lore_accurately

[wanton roost]

more dead bodies maybe

[wanton roost]

That's frigin hilarious

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message this is the discussion where I came to that conclusion.

[ripe berry]

there's still a whole undocumented part of their research after all
what we know from the books only covers 1960-1965
the AS and Games show their work dates back to the 1950s

[willow depot]

Call it overkill but she deserves it after what she did to Nicky

[dusty trench]

More hope in the fact that they aren’t going to get caught for the bad luck happening in town, and they have more time for the ritual, and steal more tech to make more luck devices or take repaired ones Mr. Peterson has.

[willow depot]

So I'm assuming there's reason to expect the HE timeloop in S3 right

[dusty trench]

Maybe in a different way

[willow depot]

Final gambit against cultists re-opening the park much?

[limber ridge]

More bad luck, which is caused by crystals AND devices. So maybe the bad luck in a way powers up the tech to the point they can channel the Well gurgle

[dusty trench]

Seems accurate

[ripe berry]

and we only know a small part of their notes, there might even be multiple sets of notes, since the books call their notes
"The Mythic Tide: An Examination of Weather's Historic Connection to Fortune" or something along those lines, which I'm not sure how that fits with what we see in the Black Book in the AS

[limber ridge]

There is something in the black book that might...

[limber ridge]

It sorta shows like a connection between 3 symbols

[ripe berry]

"The Mythic Tide" could just be what they were close enough to finishing to plan to publish, while the Black Book is all of their notes and research, finished or otherwise

[limber ridge]

A balance thing, a target looking-symbol and a line with a circle at the start and at the end

[dusty trench]

Using luck devices so the accident can happen to certain people, so that it can have more blame on Peterson.

[limber ridge]

The balance thing could be about luck, the target looking thing about weather and the line with circles can represent time

[limber ridge]

Oh, also the Snake wrapped around a pentagon that might represent a luck device.

[dusty trench]

That can be more on Roger and Adele’s interest and research. They seen those and thought that maybe they can experiment with time to save Franklin.

[limber ridge]

Like the devices that affect luck are pretty much powered by storms and the snake wrapped around reminds me of the ouroborus, which might represent time loops.

[ripe berry]

the balance. the books talk a few times about "throwing off the balance" and how it's something that should be avoided iirc.

[limber ridge]

Yeah, Norman says the devices maintain a balance

[limber ridge]

So maybe the devices(representing luck) are behind time(the snake wrapped around it). It kinda makes sense because probability is about what might happen in the future and all that stuff is powered by storms.

[ripe berry]

and notice how the three things converge on the center
they're linked, Luck, Weather, and Time.
throwing off the balance could mess everything up

[dusty trench]

Connected to the weather cycle in time. Manipulating that can mess with life and death, to the people below.

[ripe berry]

so I wonder why when comparing the AS/Most Games (before time loops) and Books/HND (after time loops) things like Nicky's Eye Color, the fate of Theodore's House, when Trinity moves in, Mrs. Esposito's life/death, are all different.

(Theodore's thrown off the balance in his attempt to save his family)

[limber ridge]

Do act 3 and reset day even take place in the same loop?

[ripe berry]

personally I'd say no

[limber ridge]

Makes sense with all the 911 friendly court stuff

[ripe berry]

my current rough belief is
Pre-loop: HNHS, HN1, AS, HE, HN2, HNVR
Post-loop: Aaron Trilogy, Nicky Trilogy, RBD, SN, HND, Reset Day

far enough out that I'd say they either predate or postdate the loops:
Bosco Bay, HN3

[dusty trench]

And all that made everything worse in the end, and just made the loop play with people’s minds even further.

#lore-discussion message can tie to these.

[ripe berry]

If Theodore added anything to the Black Book it could explain the random taped on note on the same page as the Balance

[limber ridge]

I imagine he also added the list of cult suspects

[wanton roost]

He knew every single bully that's for sure

[ripe berry]

it seems to have a date in the corner, so that could give a clue as to either when Theodore found the notes or when Roger and Adelle were working on the notes if it points to pre-1990s.

[dusty trench]

That makes sense.

[ripe berry]

yeah that bit was definitely added by him

[dusty trench]

Mostly on investigation board in office.

[limber ridge]

Since we're on about the black book, it seems to contain some runes(the book) been trying to figure those out for while but without much sucess, does anyone have any ideas on them?

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message maybe he has this in book too like he does in his office. Is he void out that stuff in his book too. One at his house, one to carry.

[ripe berry]

although it's definitely NOT meant to be read
this note was definitely made in March because 03 is legible at the beginning

[dusty trench]

As in that stream he was writing in the book.

[dusty trench]

As he has depiction of the raven man in book.

And maybe the ancient race

[limber ridge]

I don't think an ancient Race is needed for now because we already have one device explanation

The guest can just start out as an oc

[dusty trench]

I know I was mainly pointing out that as an idea for people who do believe

[ripe berry]

there's a bunch of weird symbols throughout the black book
perhaps each symbol could represent some kind of concept...?

[limber ridge]

One of them seems to be the eye

[dusty trench]

Eye of providence

Illuminate, as some reference in the culture of the town.

[ripe berry]

like on the first page here
the symbol in the top-leftmost square on the first page is seemingly a simplified version of a symbol next to the Raven Society Member(?) on the following page

[dusty trench]

Skeleton showing the life and death connection. Luck and such.

[dusty trench]

Maybe there is some tech in the suits

Like the beak mask and glove

As Mr. Peterson points them out.

[limber ridge]

There has to be at least Voice changers

[dusty trench]

I mean yea that, but something more.

[ripe berry]

no clue what this could be though

other then the obvious eye symbol in the middle

[dusty trench]

As to how the cultist was that strong to destroy that door one hand.

[dusty trench]

It’s more in the shape of like, the original non coin luck devices kinda

[ripe berry]

or by the Golden Apple Coin there's this showing one symbol turning into another symbol
possibly representing Good and Bad Luck respectively

[limber ridge]

Maybe a representation of rituals? And scribbles around it can be cultists or candles or smth

[dusty trench]

We can also look at these symbols like Guest depiction.

[ripe berry]

might as well slap in the page from S2 Ep. 3 for completion's sake

[dusty trench]

That symbol right there almost looks like the eye key symbol on the book in H&S.

Just a little

[limber ridge]

What if that drawing next to the Golden Apple is supposed to be a Red lock being unlocked?

[ripe berry]

this might be a representation of whatever equation the books talk about that Roger and Adelle found relating to the Weather and Luck after getting ahold of a luck device since the books talk about that

[limber ridge]

And like ties in with Norman's quote

[dusty trench]

Ooh I can see it

[limber ridge]

Kinda looks like schrodinger's equation in parts

[ripe berry]

wait yeah! gotta throw this in too!

[limber ridge]

(a real life equation about quantum physics)

Possibly a hint at how the devices work

[dusty trench]

I think I theorized this

Hold on

[dusty trench]

It is in device shape

[limber ridge]

Although Norman mentions electromagnetic activity

[dusty trench]

Magnetic fields being connected to weather

As Raven get manipulated by that too, they use magnetic fields to guide a path.

[ripe berry]

quantum physics is all ABOUT probability right?

[limber ridge]

He said the real action with the devices is when they Pick up electromagnetic activity

[limber ridge]

Pretty much. And schrodinger's equation even more

[ripe berry]

I mainly remember it as involving like "waves" that can be in any number of states until something observes them on a fundemental level

[dusty trench]

So that means, using weather machine in Mayak to so it can get that electro magnetic activity.

[limber ridge]

It's about the wave function of a system and how it changes over time

[ripe berry]

wave... waves... tides... The Mythic Tide... Beware the Ravens, they turn the tides...

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message these text about the H&S book.

[dusty trench]

Ooh

[limber ridge]

Also there is this thing called statistical balance in quantum mechanics

[ripe berry]

balance?

[limber ridge]

Yup!

[ripe berry]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-losing-my-grip-on-reality-i-have-gone-clinically-insane-my-descent-to-madness-is-complete-ive-gone-completely-mental-i-am-beyond-the-point-of-no-return-gif-23191724

[dusty trench]

Oh wait

Like the

Ooh

[limber ridge]

And hear this out:
Statistical balance is about the state of a system where probability remains constant over time.
Possibly related to how Ted can't change stuff no matter how he loops.

[dusty trench]

(For people who read discussion and don’t know).

[ripe berry]

first thing I found about statistical balance online https://arxiv.org/pdf/2210.15710v1

[limber ridge]

hope i didn't completely misunderstand it

Probably did though

[wanton roost]

ive been reading this trying to process all these theories

im still lost

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message

[ripe berry]

as I think you yourself said, who needs alcohol when you got HN Lore

[dusty trench]

Real shi

[limber ridge]

Ahh i was about to forward that

Well played

[ripe berry]

also
the fortune teller Theodore hid the Black Book in is labeled "Future Told"
and it requires a Golden Apple Coin to use
It's quite literally reading what your luck might be, hence why it seemingly already exists when Roger and Adelle make the Black Book

[dusty trench]

Its a play on different outcomes in time

[ripe berry]

AND why it'd be seemingly noteworthy enough to put into the book right after the page on the Golden Apple Coins themselves

[ripe berry]

also, the balance is probably why... well... as Theodore words it
someone has to suffer for someone else to soar

[dusty trench]

It’s said that statistical balance quantum mechanics is connected to time through a phenomena like the emergence of irreversible time from reversible quantum laws. The role of time is describing quantum statistical equilibration and multitude correlations, suggesting that time itself might be emergent rather than fundamental, especially at large scales or in complex systems. It underpins how quantum states evolve, statistical regularities appear over time for ensembles, linking to uncertainty and entanglement.

[limber ridge]

If i understand the Coins correctly they give bad luck all throught when You have them, then if you lose them the bad luck sorta explodes and might cause even a death. So whoever made the Coin a requirement... Well... Not good

[ripe berry]

wait that's a great explanation actually for what the coins might do (since the exacts are left unclear)

[limber ridge]

Yeah a bit stretchy but the Best i can think of

I kinda got it from analysing Trinity's nightmare in Coinflip like a nutsack.

[ripe berry]

the balance has to be maintained somehow
if someone's trying to take luck for themselves, that leaves less for other people

[ripe berry]

this is Lore-Discussion
NONE of us are sane!

[limber ridge]

The unrusted Coin follows her making her struggle all throught the run. Then at last it blows up into a bunch of smaller, rusted pieces as her house blows up and her parents die

[ripe berry]

actually gives an explanation for why the nightmare exists other then "ooh scary"

[limber ridge]

It has some foreshadowing too

[ripe berry]

also may I note that after Episode 3, when Trinity loses the coin, is when things start going downhill for her?

[limber ridge]

Like Trinity in jail

[dusty trench]

Lose the coin, lose the life

[limber ridge]

They used up all their luck, meaning they get something that messes it up. Then they lose that and then their life

[dusty trench]

I’ve discussed this before by saying when luck devices are used they burn out. Mr Peterson collecting them to repair them. And even explained the nightmare in a similar way, mainly using coins as the main symbol since it chases her.

[ripe berry]

Episode 4/5? Her friends are ambushed
Episode 6? She loses the book and is kidnapped by the Cult
Episode 7? Loses the rest of her friends and is trapped in the jail

[limber ridge]

Also Ted pulling her from away from the Coin before it bursts right out of his house. It kinda shows he isn't completely evil/ insane, and that he also struggles with the cult and bad luck.

Mirrors also have game Trinity, maybe as a way of saying "everything is canon"?

[ripe berry]

or in other words
her luck ran out not long after she lost the coin

[limber ridge]

Also mirrors might hint at perspective theory, with the world being a reflection of the characters' minds in a way

[ripe berry]

Games and AS are reflections of each other
meanwhile books, which are a separate loop from Games/AS that hasn't occurred yet, isn't included in the mirror scene.

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message

[dusty trench]

They reflect each other more, that doesn’t mean perspective can’t be involved in books.

Or just metaphorical portrayal in character minds in general.

[ripe berry]

I was saying the lack of Book Trinity is because the books loop hasn't happened yet by the time of the AS, not that perspectives can't also in part be applied to the books

[dusty trench]

yea, was adding on.

[ripe berry]

oh lol

[dusty trench]

I think I mentioned that before but I don’t remember

About Trinity in AS

[limber ridge]

Who would have thought Trinity's nightmare is actually so cool

[dusty trench]

I always loved the Imbir morphing scene lol.

[near cosmos]

I thought I lost something while watching this scared me lol

[limber ridge]

What If lore

[dusty trench]

lol

[dusty trench]

Can have some implications

[limber ridge]

Funnily enough Imbir tells Trinity to run from the coin

[dusty trench]

Cats if you don’t know are around town too.

[limber ridge]

So maybe She actually helps

[dusty trench]

Even if we talk about the bad luck and good luck cat symbolism

[limber ridge]

Anti-cult Imbir

Wait...
Puzzle master Imbir!

[dusty trench]

Which they also had an idea of in early days of HN1

[dusty trench]

I believe Imbir is friendly, more of she helps who pleases her with a treat or sum. Overtime maybe just learned more on who’s bad and who isn’t based on who she was around more, and became hero

[limber ridge]

Bad luck is for black cats

[dusty trench]

Commonly, but it has been used for more

In other folklore stuff

[limber ridge]

Hold on. In the nightmare Trinity woke up next to cookies

Maybe that's why Imbir warns her to run

[dusty trench]

Giving her good luck

[dusty trench]

Maybe Gerda took Imbir so she wouldn’t help out.

Catnapping

[dusty trench]

And can’t forget, it’s not just bad luck cats at represented with.

And Skipper is just so happens to be Mayors dog and he helps just who ever he can trust. Like Quentin giving him food.

Maybe idk, realizes who the evil truly is.

also idk if yall peeped this but, #lore-discussion message . Unrelated to Imbir and Skipper btw.

[limber ridge]

I might have understood 1% of that maybe.

Maybe 2%

[ripe berry]

gotta love how our conversations must seem completely unintelligible unless you're already deep into the HN Lore brainrot

[dusty trench]

I was pointing that out because it talks about emergent which can be related too a process where complex patterns, behaviors, or properties like time itself or consciousness arise from interaction of simpler parts that don’t possess those properties on their own.

[limber ridge]

Who needs alchoo-

[limber ridge]

Mmm

I see

[ripe berry]

when you got HN Lore

[dusty trench]

Like that can be related too the time manipulation and the loop itself. A hint at the source.

Relating to the balance.

[dusty trench]

As you pointed this out

[dusty trench]

As what I was saying connects to the balance because it connects to the cycle of life where it maintains a localized order, increasing an overall system disorder like heat and waste over time. And for weather patterns balancing chaotic quantum randomness with macroscopic like uhh, stability. All unfolding within the time-asymmetric framework of increasing Entropy. Entropy is a measure of molecular disordered randomness, or unavailability of a system’s thermal energy for conversion, into mechanical work. But yea weather and life seem different, they both show fundamental physical principals of statistical balance and energy flow, like showing how microscopic quantum randomness connects to macroscopic patterns, defining times arrow and the universes tendency toward disorder.

[limber ridge]

Oh, besides what i said before, coins also might give people who don't have them better luck, as per Ted's line

[dusty trench]

Basically this explains more specifics of the balance in the weather cycle in time, and the order that balances all of the weather cycle in time and the cycle of life.

Which #lore-discussion message

And #lore-discussion message

And the balance has been messed up, and needs to be restored.

[limber ridge]

So we got:
Weather
Luck
Time.
And as i said before all this kind of connect if you look deep.

Where does mutation enter here?

[dusty trench]

You technically don’t even have to look super deep. I mean deep but not like, ya know.

[limber ridge]

#lore-discussion message here's where i said it can connects

[limber ridge]

True

[dusty trench]

Hmm

[dusty trench]

Makes sense

Even with the fortune teller symbolism ca hit at that too, when Trinity finds book.

[dusty trench]

Like you ca look at HN like folklore.

But learning all of that stuff and combining things to create evidence to understand the bigger picture.

[limber ridge]

Oh wait

Life

As you said before this balance of luck, weather and time can affect life

[dusty trench]

Yes

[limber ridge]

So the life part is what ties into mutation

[dusty trench]

Ooh

I mean

That figures

[limber ridge]

It's pretty much what all 3 together can do. All 3 are connected to mayak

All 3 form the guest

[dusty trench]

Hmm

Intriguing

[ripe berry]

to quote Theodore in GN2
"But, but, but! You keep looking for a reason! Listen to me, bad things happen without reason. Entropy! Everything moves towards chaos and disorder! Things are stolen from us, people are taken. There. Is. No. Reason."

[dusty trench]

Because it’s all part of the cycle of life, the evolution.

Manipulating that to do specific things, breaks the balance.

[limber ridge]

That's what it really is about

[ripe berry]

and remember
the AS is trying to ground the story

[dusty trench]

Also may I mention

[ripe berry]

it's a joke but still lol

[limber ridge]

Ground as in make it more realistic or as in make it more clear?

[dusty trench]

I know

But the idea is there

Not literally, but it gives us a hint at the truth.

Like how the devs have used symbolism of meta stuff to hit at the story and bigger picture. The deeper message.

Such as, guidebook. The error Easter eggs. And the video game, movie, and YouTuber Easter eggs in a way.

[ripe berry]

here's what Alex said
#hello-neighbor message

[limber ridge]

So as in make it more realistic

[ripe berry]

and that they "really wanted to ground the story in the AS"
#hello-neighbor message

[ripe berry]

"it all needs to be grounded in plausible realistically explainable events"
and what we've mainly done in this conversation is tie what occurs in the lore into real life science and concepts

[dusty trench]

Even past this discussion we’ve done this stuff. Just elaborated more over time.

[dusty trench]

Trying to form a new source of life

And all that loops right back to this, #lore-discussion message . You can’t just do things because you feel like you need more power than everyone else. You can’t take away freedom for yourself, taking away what you feel like people don’t deserve. Because you don’t play god, earth does. The universe, cycle of life and how it functions. You can’t just take that away, and create your own cycle. If you do, it always comes with an outcome. People freedom, loved things or loved ones, or play with their minds. Manipulating and playing with what they fear, their traumatic events, and mistakes and choices they made. Memories being fogged by fear. They have to face it themselves. Sure you can help someone to that road by unlocking the gateway, but you can’t force it, just for your own gain. What ever that is to you. Your mistakes, choices, what you fear most, and memories of any kind will always loop back to you. You choose whether you want to face it, or give up. Both can have different outcomes. The truth is, freedom doesn’t mean control. Control over others, their minds, and what they do. You choose whether you let your fear’s control you, or you choose to face it and keep it under control so it doesn’t affect you. But control comes in different ways, and there will always be an outcome, whether Roy be good or bad. Because that’s how the cycle of life works. You choose to accept it, or give up.

[ripe berry]

now that I think about it
this can be used to limit Guest theories
whatever the Guest is in the AS has to be "grounded in plausible realistically explainable events"

aka your theory needs to establish some kind of real life basis or psuedoscience or something to make whatever the Guest is explainable

[limber ridge]

I've done a little more of research and it seems like this isn't all that wrong.

[dusty trench]

If you really look back really deep into the lore discussion page, we already had ideas of sci fi scientific esc stuff going on impacting all the word stuff this game portrays. Here tho today we just kinda tied things to explain into one.

Also, I feel like the drawings from HN1 and H&S are early important. I know they have been mentioned a bit, but ai feel like even at the time they showed more. And some elements of drawings get expanded on later on in the future. Further showing that the details were left to be expanded on later n the future.

Even drawings in the alpha build can be expanded on later on. To further show the ideas being used from details back then.

I even put the wallpaper there since it has interesting stuff that could be used as symbolism and hint for the future now in a way.

Ideas being used to fit the narrative of the story.

Even the room has a door that lead straight to the ground. Almost like they used that as idea and in a way, represent and hint at Mya’s death. Even the room in general seems like it was expanded on later. In the middle a mannequin holding a small teddy bear in a baby crib. Almost like a mother watching their child. And we know mannequins of Diane Mya Aaron, and even Theodore are in the house, including mannequins in general that represent stuff. Like the 4 mannequin party that is like the party photo in S&R of the Peterson’s.

[dusty trench]

And the drawing being well, interesting can represent Aaron in a way that his drawing were interesting and a hint at his character and humor. Even him drawing depiction that represent real things, such as the island.

But Mya drew some stuff too, just you might tell which one was Aaron or Mya. But I personally like the idea that they both made them. The more dream like imagination of Mya, mixed with the real more dark mind of Aaron. Being out in drawing. As we even see in the H&S cover art, it’s them playing but it recreates the scene of the mother’s death. 8 feel like that’s time in the loop playing with what’s going to happen in the future since time is corrupted, and it’s playing with Theo’s mind. As he looks saddened and depressed in the box art, hinting that he knows his wife is going to die, and time is playing with his mind as he keeps going back to the same traumatic events making him lose his sanity more.

[dusty trench]

Like that drawing of the kid people say is like kid Theo. Even back then people had that idea and theory.

[dusty trench]

Even this drawing of the family picture is almost lie Roger Adele and Theo. I’ve seen this idea before, that they took this or lie references it with Roger am Adele. Reason why Franklin isn’t there is because he’s gone, and Lisa isn’t really present and could be a puzzle master later on after finding out Aaron and Mya re missing. And this was likely drawn by Aaron, and he doesn’t really know about Franklin or Lisa before Nicky trilogy. He was more interested in Roger and Adele, and his father’s childhood. That drawing of the person getting killed can represent the cult murdering people and taking advantage of their minds, as the person is like a puppet and the knife is like above. The kid sad with balloon ca show bad luck, fear, or what ever problems impacting their life. Could be another portrayal of child Ted. The chicken with eye closed which is in the same style as the eye painting being closed and HGP icon which I theorize is shutting off the power of Mayak in a way (I elaborated on this much before), and yes I knonitbisnt raven, it can still work even the fact that it’s a bird.

[dusty trench]

Same with the wallpapers of the yellow bird and blue bird with the closed eye, which not only is Mayak being turned off but can symbolize the raging symbol finally at piece, which is Guest. As we even tied 3 things of Mayak to Guest, 3 things to make up Guest symbol showing that connection between the scientific stuff and the metaphorical symbols. And Guest is in rage, and it ca signify kind of a good omen in a way. Like freedom. Even the wallpaper has roses and hearts to show that love connection, and more freedom stuff with the other flower like being free in nature. The fairy could be used as representation of Lucy in a way. And more of a good luck and freedom symbol, as it’s like a baby angel. Even with the same hair, the wings, and what it’s wearing. Andy corn showing more of that being free in nature and the world symbol. The dark rabbit symbol represents fear, fear capturing you and surrounding you making you afraid of everything around you. It’s almost like the thing drawings in AS we see.

[dusty trench]

There’s more I’m going to send but the bot isn’t letting me lol.

[ripe berry]

may I point out that some of the drawings from HN1 Alphas like this one seem to be made BY a young Theodore

[dusty trench]

Mentioned that

[ripe berry]

oh sry, still reading

[dusty trench]

Oh all good

[ripe berry]

alright
👍

y'know
wonder if there's anything that retroactively hints to Franklin outside of that one painting

[dusty trench]

lol I was just typing about the blue and purple guy. The message the bot blocked lol 😂.

[willow depot]

The glasses guy drawing reminds me of what Nikita used to look like back in the day (kickstarter video/dev diary for example)

The blue apartment complex is kinda ironic

[dusty trench]

Ooh thats a good catch.

It might be that

[willow depot]

That could only really at the time be just a building in Russia since Nikita originated from there

But it just so happens to have Ted's house colors

Specifically Alpha 2 I guess since red door

[dusty trench]

Maybe Nikita siding himself as a design to show something in a way, that’s also an Easter egg of him.

[willow depot]

(wish they kept that sigh)

[ripe berry]

because ironically enough I feel like the full game actually makes it seem like Theodore's an only child with this painting

[willow depot]

Isn't it also hanging in Act 3 Nicky bedroom by the way

[dusty trench]

Lisa maybe became puzzle master of doesn’t like Theo anymore because he lied about Aaron and Mya. And Franklin is gone.

[ripe berry]

yeah

[willow depot]

Given that it was father and son plot I think it alluded to Beta Ted's/Beta Nicky's family

[ripe berry]

I'm just saying in the context of the current storyline

[willow depot]

Yuh

Franklin is his imaginary friend

Or the Holy Spirit

[dusty trench]

Jesus

[willow depot]

It kinda upsets me a little how at the time you wouldn't really catch that because in Act 1 Nicky's bedroom has that uhh drawing thing referencing some YouTube channel and THEIR family

And you'd typically not assume that Act 3 has that different

Because that's sorta the only thing changed between two houses lol

[dusty trench]

Maybe not only to show Theo in his house, but at the time to show Nicky being an only child.

[ripe berry]

other then like- a few more items being in Nicky's cabinets and stuff

[dusty trench]

It would be cooler if the Fgteev reference was a drawing in Aaron and Mya’s room, like in a way during oh they drew YouTubers (not literally).

[willow depot]

True

And a bit more on the nose as a reference

[dusty trench]

Yea

[willow depot]

Honestly HN1 was so full of those like dang

[ripe berry]

another case where I'd say a painting probably has a new meaning now is this one
I think in the beta days it was meant to in some way represent the proto-Petersons bc didn't it have something on the back like "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" (which is no longer there in FG)

[willow depot]

Sometimes whole theories were made based off that mask

Or heck the wanted paper even

[ripe berry]

yeah
and some of them are actually pretty well hidden

[willow depot]

Yeah it did

[dusty trench]

Painting is on full game tho?

Iirc I’m pretty sure

[ripe berry]

like I think there's one for Random Encounters in Fear Darkness that most people don't notice

[ripe berry]

yeah
I was saying they probably changed what it means at some point

[dusty trench]

Yea alr. Rearranging the idea for the actual narrative.

[ripe berry]

(it's the painting that moves to show more of the Act 3 House... idk how to explain it's use)

[dusty trench]

I remember

Idk why I was confused for a sec

[ripe berry]

since it's a unique painting and they didn't change it it probably has some kind of meaning still in the FG

[dusty trench]

This is in HN1 and H&S btw.

[ripe berry]

wait
three apples, one Golden
This drawing could in a way represent the three Petersons of Theodore, Franklin, and Lisa.

[dusty trench]

Who do you think the golden one is

One apple is orange, one is red.

[ripe berry]

possibly Franklin considering... y'know...

[dusty trench]

Yes. Red one being Theo, orange being Lisa.

[dusty trench]

The pig with the storm above it smiling looking at the apple to eat them represents the cult bring pain to the Peterson’s, ready to take them down crumbling all their lives. The bright grass showing that freedom in nature, being taken over but the cult. And the Peterson’s are apple’s trees that are stuck in this little age the cult is playing on them, trapping them in this bad luck, which the tree shows in a way.

[dusty trench]

Which can tie to this.

[ripe berry]

guess there really are hints to Franklin
even if you have to overanalyze literal children's drawings to find them

[dusty trench]

Me idk if you know about than but it’s been in my mind for a while but, there’s these tales in folklore called Brothers Grimm Tales and one of the stories is called, Devil with the Three Golden Hairs. The golden apple tree signifies a blight/curse that the hero must solve. Linking the devil to unnatural barrenness. And even there is broader Christian symbolism that connects to the Devil (serpent) to the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden which is also often depicted as a golden apple (or apple), representing temptation, knowledge, and humanity’s fall from grace. And while often in the bible stories it’s depicted as an apple or golden apple, it’s never specified there. The golden apple tree overall in The Devil with the Three Golden Hairs represents spiritual or natural decay caused by evil. The key plot point is that a golden apple tree has a ceased bearing fruit, a curse brought by the Devil, which the hero must lift by obtaining golden hairs from the Devil’s head.

[dusty trench]

I mean it’s not really over analyzing since well, it’s Hello Neighbor and we dissected paintings before, and many stuff that can be, key stuff.

Or just more detail to be dragged in signifying something more.

[ripe berry]

Act 3 has a Golden Apple Tree

[dusty trench]

I know, and I feel like that ties in to this.

Maybe even more important than we think.

Tying to the cult and all the curse stuff that happens.

Maybe showing the dark corporate destruction of the town and its cultural symbols.

[ripe berry]

which could also mean the Golden Apple in the drawing could be representing Theodore
or the Golden Apple Tree could have some kind of tie to Franklin

[dusty trench]

Maybe his death. And how it impacted Theo.

And that sticks with him, hence the tree being at Theo’s house.

[ripe berry]

ironically enough, the Golden Apple Seed (or the one that isn't OoB) is found high up, the exact opposite of where Franklin last was when he "died" (underground, falling)

[dusty trench]

Theo is planting a trap and plan to give the cult bad luck and curse their lives forever as revenge. That’s why he is planting Apple seed, and the garden is there.

This ca tie or the golden apple coins and what they are used for. And even them being called unlucky coins.

[ripe berry]

high up... on an almost unreachable pedestal
(only reachable if you jump from the windmill with an umbrella I think)

[dusty trench]

Yes

[ripe berry]

Theodore might view Franklin that way

[dusty trench]

That makes sense, even considering the Judas painting. And he feels like he fails him, or betrayed him.

Ever since he stopped paying attention to reality and did things lie disregarding safety features, manipulating with time and the environment in place and time, and failing to save him and their family. Falling into the same light as Raven Man after losing his sanity.

[dusty trench]

The red car ca represent Theo’s car, maybe a hint at the car accident in a ways the could be used as an idea elaborated on in a way. The car one can be used as an idea for Imbir. And the bird that the cat is looking at can be like how Imbir feels something off about the ravens, and knows that there is something wrong that they aren being run or guided by a darker force that she doesn’t know what. Andy’s dark clouds in the sky along side the bird can signify the storm connection. As the bird and the stormy looking dark clouds are over shading the sun, bringing pain above the peaceful land, and turning it painful and dark. Taking sea people’s freedom to connect with the world. Even the kid running down the rainbow drawing ca show this too, but in the way that you can’t state in imagination dream reality forever. You have to pay attention to reality too, or bad luck will come back to catch you. This can hint at Mr. Peterson as when he finally believes there is hope, he stops paying attention to reality and disregard safety features, as he is way too into the mindset that everything is going to be okay once again but he stops paying attention to reality as a whole. Even Mya gets this mindset too and the only way she knows how to cope is by staying in her dream land, and ignore what’s reality completely. But the cold hearted truth slowly slips in, and when she combines reality and imagination in a healthy way, it’s always too late.

[dusty trench]

There is one drawing here I want to mention. The tall purple guy who looks more serious, and the short triangle person who looks more excited. I bribe this can be tied to Franklin and Theo. Franklin being the tall purple guy who is more aware and right beside his little brother always keeping track. Theo who is younger and more excited about stuff and reacts quick, always in his hopes and dreams. Even Franklin looking up almost reminds me of them looking up at Mayak. And Theo having one yet that reminds me of Mayak kinda. Almost like the other imagery I’ve mentioned a little.

[dusty trench]

The hedgehog drawing shows bad luck crashing down onto the people below, causing fear and traumatic dark events to happen caused by evil and insanity, that can make the environment worse around them. It was all peaceful, until it all came crashing down.

[dusty trench]

The house drawing can represent the Peterson house, as it is almost kinda similar to the doll house a little bit which also represents the house in a metaphorical way through spiritualism and voodoo stuff as a metaphorical symbol. You see the sunlight and nature, but the ravens and storm come storming top ruin everything. Bringing more pain and suffering to the town, and bad luck. Even the picture of the guy who looks like Nikita back then, looks scared and worried. You can see the fear and panic in his eyes as the storm of ravens soar being him. Then there’s a drawing of a sock puppet, probably to show how the town folks are getting their kids played with, treated like puppets in a stage play. Like how the loop take away their mindset and memory, but as you break it the knowledge come back forming timeline the kids of people that isn’t corrupted, or playing with characters minds. And then there is a drawing of two dogs standing next to the shoe of a dead person both smiling, including the sun. But the flowers next to it are tilted over like they’re about to die. This can show the corporate masking of the town, trying to cover up all of the bad stuff going on in town. Pretending that everything is okay, but it’s all a trap. And there’s the tiger drawing, likely what Aaron’s costume is based off. Showing the animalistic out of control rage in the town, people losing their sanity, as everything becomes dead around them. And there’s hearts are probably from Aaron because he can relate to raging and having mental issues, feeling like he just has to go all out and out of control sometimes, since that the only way he knows how to express his feelings. But it can do wrong in the end.

[dusty trench]

But there is the humanoid bird drawing I want to talk about. I believe that represents Theo as an adult. How he has been through all of this pain trauma and suffering his whole life, slowly losing his sanity and going insane. Stressed out and depressed from everything, that he loses himself, becoming someone he isn’t. Sounds familiar. Well I believe this can be used as an idea for Guest symbol and its destruction, like how Mr. Peterson falls victim to Guest symbol and destructed like how it was. And yes I know it isn’t black colored, but ravens can appear blue at times, even in HE they kinda sometimes do. But it’s not even that it’s a raven, it’s just the fact that is a humanoid bird that looks stressed and has a tie like a business worker or someone who is familiar with more professional business. So yea, you can relate this to The Guest as a technical, early on depiction of the symbol in a way, and how it tarnished people in town mainly representing Mr. Peterson falling into possession to the symbol in a way, losing his sanity and becoming destructive. This is a breadcrumb to be picked up in the future.

[limber ridge]

Atp the guest symbol is more powerful than the guest himself

[dusty trench]

Well technically if your speaking in terms of that reality, one Guest is real person he other isn’t in reality. But if we are peaking in terms of connecting the supernatural folklore to the more grounded side, than yea Guest symbol is more powerful metaphorically since it’s portrayed to have powers at times and do things that aren’t possible. Like you can view basic versions of the story in a way through the folklore view or straight forward. But to get things to tie together to get overall timeline, then you have to piece things together to create evidence and balance everything.

Going offline for idk how long so bye 👋.

[limber ridge]

I mean that while the real guest can interact with the world around him and stuff, the symbol, aka representation of pain, loss, all that, pretty much causes many of the characters' actions

[dusty trench]

Okay I’m back for a bit. I have time lol.

[dusty trench]

More powerful in the influence and culture surrounding it that has been tarnished. Kinda like how people beliefs can heavily impact them. Some are peaceful outlooks of life. Hit some are twisted into actually believing that’s how it should be. But it’s Guest itself that does the real damage, and shows it. While symbol we see it through others, and events in the story. In a way like it’s handing over the story, and in a way metaphorically possessing stuff. And it’s all because people wanted to play with things they shouldn’t have, and associated the symbol with it. Turning it evil, with dark ritualistic work behind the scenes.

[limber ridge]

(metaphorically of course, i know the symbol doesn't have any supernatural capabilities)

[limber ridge]

Yup

[dusty trench]

In reality. Or atleast, the HN reality. It’s grounded.

[limber ridge]

Somewhat

Time loops is sorta hovering a little bit

[dusty trench]

But, not supernatural.

[limber ridge]

Even then, we can connect it to some real life concepts, as we've done before

[dusty trench]

Exactly, and folklore to get even deeper. Like into characters motives.

Or who they are.

Even just the symbolic way the story goes through out.

The story and its events are playing with characters minds in a way.

Not even just the loops, but that the event’s impact the character’s in many different ways, connecting to them.

[limber ridge]

Wait hold on... This can sort of connect into what the coins do, because the bad luck sort of changes over time (when You still have the coin vs when you lose the coin)

[limber ridge]

I can't help but imagine this being brought up by one of the kids in season 3

[dusty trench]

Literally would be peak

[dusty trench]

That is true

[limber ridge]

Maybe shmoeface's oc but no evidence and might not line up with timeline

[ripe berry]

the balance changes...

[ripe berry]

the timeline shows it was already existing when Theodore was a kid (in the form of Guest Kid)

so ~1953 is the latest the Guest Ritual can begin happening

[dusty trench]

It could be before

Considering when town was created

And even the timing evidence we get on stuff such as luck devices

[dusty trench]

Or unless your not talking about the festival but, The Well?

[limber ridge]

The Well ritual has to happen like in 1957 at earliest, If including the Franklin one.

[ripe berry]

was talking the festival, accidentally called it ritual. was just saying it likely predates Schmoeface

[limber ridge]

Probably, but we'd have to infer that to a degree

[dusty trench]

Oh I know it predates the Schmoe. But, it can happen earlier than 1953.

[dusty trench]

Maybe

[limber ridge]

But we know for sure 1953 is the latest

[dusty trench]

I mean if we consider the luck devices timeline we get hinted at, and when the parents come to town I mean, it could be earliest but idk.

[ripe berry]

I wonder what the deal could be with the 2 Guest appearances even pre 1980 (Festival Statue and Raven Man)

[limber ridge]

Raven Man in pre 1980? When was that?

Wait what if

[limber ridge]

This theory isn't completely unneeded

[dusty trench]

Tavishes were interested in the area because of its strange weather and the amount of ravens there. At the time, they started researching folklore to see if it ca get them closer to discovering real word science and connection. They called the place Raven Brooks, and the Ravens Society formed by Tavish’s started to form a culture in town with folklore reference and stuff. They began investigating luck. Since ravens are associated with that. So thy collected these luck crystals (which I mentioned above real folklore), and they wanted to see if they could experiment with them using some weather technology. And even in real life there is folk lore of giant Ravens. They combined the stuff they seen in town with the stuff they learned about with folklore and created the Raven Man festival, and just overall cultural tradition in the town. They were really curious in this stuff, and either they reached out or they just came out of curiosity (or both), Roger and Adele came to town. Famous meteorologist and they got their headquarters there, the wether station. Which has reference of the towns culture on building with the eye. The began researching the odd weather phenomena’s in town and wondered if they can kind of, contain the weather. So they expanded the Well and made it huge. But the Ravens society started to get way too caught in the fame and fortune they were receiving, and they were desperate for more recourses. So they began stealing Mayak tech parts to experiment on these luck crystals. They slowly began worrying about taking control over the weather, and maybe even more. Control over everything, and everyone. They slowly started forming a cult around the symbols in tow as they gravitated forwards their goals and investigation and culture, but in a twisted way. As the town started to become more corporate, people started viewing the raven man symbol as evil, and people started spreading rumors like a creepy tale. The town started having more way more incidents.

Then years later during incident’s and weird cases up to the 1980’s, the festival was shut down.

[dusty trench]

Now I will add on that in HN their could be a canonical ancient bird race based on the giant ravens folklore, but ima leave that out for now. Just want to get certain stuff out, without delving too deep into that rn. Liked it was just the giant ravens folklore.

[dusty trench]

Maybe

[dusty trench]

Btw, Giant Ravens in folklore are often depicted as powerful, acting as tricksters, messengers, and omens (usually of death). So likely it was based on giant ravens folklore asf rn.

[limber ridge]

I really really doubt though

[west falcon]

True there is only 4 days

And we thought it was gunna release in October

😔

[wanton roost]

Frn

Fr

We better get that love ride clip in valentines day

[ripe berry]

it's been a whole year without the AS

[wanton roost]

Remember all the s1 and s2 hype

Good times

[limber ridge]

If HN3 had lore-time loops it would work kind of well because:
Hello neighbor 1 - story overlaps with Nicky's triliogy, Nicky is the protagonist, the neighbor is the antagonist.
Hello neighbor 2 - overlaps with Aaron's triliogy, mainly with the cult stuff.
Hello neighbor 3 would overlap more with Reset day with a time loop. It still kind of does because action takes place in the future.

And they still both have time loop stuff, just not both are Lore related time loops

[wanton roost]

and more people will be missing in hn3 just like Enzo and trinity maybe more got missing

[dusty trench]

Except the fact that HN3 there isn’t loop, but it can have some connection too it tho in a way.

[limber ridge]

Yup. I know.

I forwarded that info first

[dusty trench]

Oh alr

[vagrant igloo]

wdym "if hn3 had lore"

[limber ridge]

If HN3 had Lore time loops, îs what i said

[dusty trench]

There could be a loop after HN3, since golden Apple corp is outside of Raven Brooks now and they can continue more on in a different stories since Raven Brooks story has ended, it could even be called something else since Mr. Peterson likely is dead but who knows. All we really need is the 2000’s and 2010’s period to be cleared up first, after they clear up 90’s and early 2000’s period.

[vagrant igloo]

oh
the - threw me off

[limber ridge]

So about that period, all we really know is... I guess Trinity begins to try and remember of the 1996 events for some reason.

[dusty trench]

Loops affected her mind, she is getting over her trauma.

And maybe others too, but we see it in Trinity’s mindset.

[limber ridge]

Imagine if just all the events of Nikita's prototypes he showed in devlog 1.5 happen lol

Some giant barges into Raven Brooks

Some... Nephilim

Wait... Nephilim!

Time to ping Pear

[dusty trench]

That would I actually be kinda fire. Like add onto more of the devs telling a message to story.

[dusty trench]

That would be crazy tho 😭✌️

[limber ridge]

(for those who don't know, in the Bible nephilim are basically giants)

[dusty trench]

I know this

Wait

You don’t suggest

Ooh

[limber ridge]

It's about full circle theory

(even If nothing suggests this happens but yk)

[limber ridge]

Tbf not much would actually be filled, except for giant monster and possibly right about time.
Introversion - some guy in Raven Brooks is an introvert, wow.
Auditorium - guess students in Raven Brooks just hate their teachers(vandal lore???)

[ripe berry]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-losing-my-grip-on-reality-i-have-gone-clinically-insane-my-descent-to-madness-is-complete-ive-gone-completely-mental-i-am-beyond-the-point-of-no-return-gif-23191724

[dusty trench]

#lore-discussion message . these messages can tie into this. Maybe the loops learn from people in a way. Like, the loops as we see and if you read these messages can affect people’s minds. And we know the loops as they do that affect people’s trauma too. As they are trapped, they are stuck thinking about their traumatic events or even mistakes they made, hence why loops are mostly portrayed in events of the story that would impact characters. Such as Nicky’s kidnapping, and HE sandbox. And Mr. Peterson who has been constructing the loop, and he has trapped the kids on island, and he doesn’t this as revenge and so they can feel their trauma even more. What if because of that, the loops took away what they what they loved most in a way, or they make things happen to affect people’s fears. Such as, Maritza and Enzo’s mom. Why not the dad is because he is a puzzle master and knows what’s going on. This ca add to perspective and loops in a huge way. And even can effect more on the exaggeration of AS, it’s actually actively playing with their minds. Thats why it brainwashed them. And even I can add it to this. We know from SN when we do the MITH event and hit all the eye painting, the power in town turns off. We know the eyes are connected to Mayak and cult, since the Mayak design was based on town culture and maybe even based on the Paterson’s too maybe, because of Franklin and Theos eye color. And that shows that the Mayak tech well is connected to the whole town. That would mean that not only does the loop brainwash people maybe from a shock or sum, but there is like some radiation thing right afterwards that connects to all the tech in raven brooks and cellular technology, even the clocks system and makes it go backwards. And maybe, it won’t always be the same. Evers will be distorted and stuff won’t match up, because the loops are getting broken. In the MITH event we didn’t just stop the power in town.

[dusty trench]

We stopped the clocks. We stoped the time movement Raven Brooks, but people were free from the mind control of the loops and Mayak tech. This can even add onto the weather system, as the time gets reversed, the weather too. But it keeps breaking the balance which we talked about before. We have to fix the balance. And this could tie to teleportation, that maybe it loops back to when Mr. Peterson is on island where he started loops, as we know there is teleportation devices connected to it. But the thing is, how do the others characters get taken back. Well, maybe something stops their minds. But, it can break again, things can even happen with different characters. Similar events repeating stuff, or parallel other events. Such as Quentin losing his sister, Aaron losing Mya by falling, similar way to Franklin. That shows that the loops, can learn from characters, and have similar events play out that ca effect other characters. And with that and the teleportation, maybe the loops as it stops people’s minds, it can learn from their memories being saved into tv system, and gives the knowledge of the past like when they were born. Maybe lie for example, Nicky. He was born outside of Raven Brooks, and when the loops stops and characters get brainwashed and their minds being manipulated, the save memory system in the Mayak tech ca give memory of the past lives kinda like just when they were born and stuff int characters minds, but takes away others. That can tie more into the loops infecting other Harvard mindsets and perspectives. And this could tie into mutation and transformation in a way too. Like Diane accident happening in different loops. How she old be in both loops, but not Ms. Esposito.

[versed yacht]

I don't know if I ever posted this here but I often think about this

Probably unrelated to the Ancient Curse achievement but it's interesting to think about

Ted lost Franklin
Quentin lost Beatrix
Aaron lost Mya

It's almost like some repeating curse

[limber ridge]

It is

Bad luck curse

[versed yacht]

Fair yeah

I just meant the sibling thing specifically feels very repetitive

Especially with Franklin and Mya falling to their death, or Mya and Beatrix going "missing" during a game of Hide and Seek

[limber ridge]

True dat

[versed yacht]

And with the time loops it makes you wonder if there's some sort of repetition thing going on with certain events happening again and again but with different people

[limber ridge]

It's sort of like a venn diagram but with 3 things

[versed yacht]

Exactly

[limber ridge]

You got Franklin's loss, and Beatrix's loss (2 circles), then they overlap with Mya's loss.

Mya's death is sort of a mix between the circumstances for the other losses, i wanna say

She both falls, and it takes place during a game of Hide and seek, while Franklin's is only a fall and Beatrix's is only during a game of hide and seek

[limber ridge]

Wouldn't this imply Quentin has some connection to the Teaserpon's?

[versed yacht]

Maybe

[limber ridge]

Maybe not necesarily family

But something

[versed yacht]

I've always kinda wondered that tbh because Quentin's last name has always been a mystery

[limber ridge]

I like Wingate for him

As per Hatcherywingate

[versed yacht]

That's true

I honestly always headcanoned that as MJ's name

Hatcher Y. Wingate

[limber ridge]

And so do i.

[dusty trench]

These can tie into the discussion.

Maybe there is some rebirth and transformation thing going on with Mayak that is t fully refined. As even it can tie into the HN3 symbolism of rebirth, transformation, the circle of life and ouroburos.

It can tie HN3 even tho it doesn’t have loop to the loops, and could explain this.

[limber ridge]

The mayak did sorta...

Explode...

In GN2.

It is still there in reset day which most likely takes place after GN2