#lore-and-universe

1 messages · Page 557 of 1

near tide
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This is the lore channel

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It’s for facts

versed helm
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Ik but I don't read

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So how was I supposed to know

unique rune
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I mean, that defense doesn’t work after being willfully ignorant of multiple people giving an explanation of it.

minor sky
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So whats the status of the Prometheans as of late?

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Are they just sorta mia like Warden Eternal?

unique rune
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Don’t think we’ve heard anything on their current state

humble yacht
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The guardians all shut down when Cortana bit it but I doubt the same would happen to all the prometheans

terse lava
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The Prometheans are still around, along with those human AI who took up some as bodies as their own. They are just without leadership from Cortana, and due to that, can not control the guardians anymore

minor sky
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Man, they really shouldn't have dropped the created from the story so quickly....

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I mean sure H5 didn't give them the best introduction, but it probably isn't the best call to make in the long term to throw out another faction right after their first appearance

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I've toyed with the idea that they should have let 5 set up the created and then have 6 wrap up the "Reclaimer Trilogy" and then properly introduce the created, cue Halo Infinite or whatever.

hazy shadow
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I think there will be more with them, but I think they have to sort out the Domain before the Created can really rejoin the story proper.

terse lava
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it didn't help that the few novels they had set during the Created conflict didn't really do much themselves to help flesh out the current setting of the universe

minor sky
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Yeah

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343i's biggest issue with writing is their inability to commit

terse lava
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very, they react to heavily to fan critisism

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Heck, the Didact was met to be "Chief's nemesis" throughout the "Reclaimer trilogy." With even Primordium hinting at that, with Chakas telling the modern humans such conflict may be everlasting

stable flower
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I don't even know what the "Reclaimer trilogy" is anymore by Infinite.

terse lava
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Long gone

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I figure they really should have held off the didact till a later game, not right at the opening

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Have h4 with Jul's Covenant being the main focus, have them manage to activate a mcguffin that still forces Cortana to give her life. Than have the didact appear in halo 5

minor sky
minor sky
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I think it'd be better if the Storm Covenant leaned more into the whole "Civil War on Sanghilos" angle a bit more

terse lava
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indeed

fair hazel
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They need to stick to their guns and not throw stuff under the carpet

minor sky
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Totally

humble yacht
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It’s a lose lose situation cause if they do that then people complain that they don’t listen to the community

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I don’t envy game devs

fair hazel
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Stick to their guns but build off of the stories. The under the carpet hasn’t been going that well

minor sky
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Not to mention that they've been throwing things under the rug for the past 10 years

hazy shadow
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20*

minor sky
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343i has been in control for about 10 years give or take

reef remnant
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Dumb question probably, but why did the UNSC stop making Spartan 2s?

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And why did they move on to spartan 3s then 4s

hazy shadow
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Yes. Bungie was doing the same thing lore-wise that 343 does lol

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People like to forget that.

hazy shadow
reef remnant
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Ahh I see

hazy shadow
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3's still used child soldiers, which is banned both in the real world and Halo universe

reef remnant
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Ah, weren’t 3s sort of brainwashed into it too?

hazy shadow
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3s were actually less brainwashed than 2s, and 2s weren't brainwashed in the literal sense.

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They were raised to fight, and never told anything different. That doesn't really qualify as brainwashing, as that would imply that they were trained and raised for different things and then unwittingly programmed to fight.

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2s and 3s were technically volunteers by the strictest sense, but due to age and lack of parental consent it was still illegal and morally wrong.

reef remnant
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I thought 2s were like kidnapped

gilded mason
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How are 2s als- yeah

hazy shadow
gilded mason
hazy shadow
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After having conversations with their kidnappers. John wasn't the only one Halsey talked to. I'm not saying it was okay, but it's just not as clear cut either direction.

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That was until lore people decided that Halsey's war crimes outpaced the Spartans saving humanity innumerable times. 🤷‍♂️

gilded mason
hazy shadow
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It has been discussed many times, in the books, in animated mini series, comics, and even I think at the front end of Halo 4 or 5?

humble yacht
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Nope

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The tv show was really the only media that showed Halsey chatting with john’s parents

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In the main timeline, Halsey spied on John while he was playing king of the hill with other kids

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And she noted he was an ideal candidate

hazy shadow
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I never said she spoke with the parents.

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I specifically said the opposite. She spoke with the children and NOT the parents.

gilded mason
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Either way, the kids never knew they were going to be kidnapped, unless you have a source saying so

humble yacht
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She had him flip a coin a bunch of times, it’s not like she described the program to him during that convo

hazy shadow
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That is correct. Have you ever talked to a military recruiter? Her conversation was only slightly more simplified. Once again, since everyone here would rather argue than understand, at no point am I saying it was okay.

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But people keep misunderstanding Spartans on fundamental levels based off of assumptions from this exact part of their induction.

humble yacht
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It was pretty clear cut a bad thing

hazy shadow
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Bad thing with good results. Yes, that is the original grey area that made the UNSC so complex.

humble yacht
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If you’re a utilitarian, sure

hazy shadow
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That's a very important part of the lore, yes.

gilded mason
hazy shadow
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Are you trying to imply that I said they weren't kidnapped? Because you're employing a lot of semantics to try to imply that. The kids were fine with it once they acclimated. I don't have to like it to accept it (keeping in mind it's all fiction), but what you do by this line of logic is rob the Spartan-IIs of their dignity for choosing to make the best of a bad situation, whether that situation was within their control or not. They don't fight because the government programmed them to, they fight because they want to save people and help humanity. That's the big deal.

humble yacht
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Help the UEG*

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Because initially Spartans were trained to kill rebels

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It was a happy accident that they were around to fight the covenant

hazy shadow
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Yes, that is what adds flavor to the whole thing. Had the Covenant not shown up and they had to deal with the Insurrection, we would have a different story on our hands that wouldn't be Halo 🤷‍♂️

gilded mason
hazy shadow
gilded mason
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I was saying that didn't seem correct based on the sources...?

hazy shadow
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And I provided the reasons why it was, based on the sources. Also, the lore has been tweaked since around Halo 4 to make things out to be a little more stark and a little less interesting. They ignore a lot of pieces that were laid out in The Fall of Reach that helped make Halo top-tier scifi

craggy sierra
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It literally hasn't been touched at all with regards to the Spartan origins

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If anything it's done the opposite with having a book being based around a dad being radicalized into the insurrection after his daughter was kidnapped to be a spartan.

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They've also been exploring that grey area by actually having Halsey get faced by a millitary tribunal over the ethics of the Spartan program itself. That was the literal opening cutscene of Halo 4.

hazy shadow
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You're starting to make my point for me, keep going.

gilded mason
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😬

craggy sierra
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What point? Is your point that characters being challeneged on extremely poor ethics is somehow bad?

gilded mason
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And you still haven't really said how the kids weren't "taken against their will"

hazy shadow
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My point that poor ethics makes for good story.

gilded mason
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And poor ethics leads to obvious consequences sometimes.

craggy sierra
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Yes but poor ethics that go un-countered do not.

hazy shadow
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Have I objected to said consequences at all? There's a reason that 2's, 3's, and 4's are all different, and that question is what started this whole discussion.

craggy sierra
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Like would it somehow be more compelling if history just sang the praises of Halsey for the rest of time and ignore the part where she kidnapped like 100 kids and murdered several dozen of them?

hazy shadow
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No, but they paint her as a psychopath instead of utilitarian. That distinction takes away from the character rather than adding to it.

craggy sierra
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She kidnapped children to stop farmers from having rights

hazy shadow
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She clearly demonstrates that she cares about the Spartans throughout the whole process, and that is thrown out the window in later portrayals. Which is a whole different discussion.

craggy sierra
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Please explain to me how that is rational

hazy shadow
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Once again, a whole different discussion.

craggy sierra
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Even ONI was like "Jesus Christ Halsey, why did you kidnap kids for this?"

hazy shadow
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The point is that the UNSC was never 100% right, they were just necessary.

gilded mason
hazy shadow
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Right, the same ONI that turned around and sponsored the Spartan III program lol

strong rose
# reef remnant Dumb question probably, but why did the UNSC stop making Spartan 2s?

Contrarian is inaccurate. Halsey's need for control was the cause. IIIs were like IIs with all of the advantage of years of study into the ways things went wrong with IIs its also REALLY hard to kidnap 150 for regular waves.

IIIs were like IIs but without Halsey, and without her overbearing pressure to not send them on suicide missions.

IVs was the program brought to full production grade for post-pubescent candidates.

ONI also used the time between II and IV to solidify their control over the mjolnir market.

In short, the process was refined to what you get with IIs.

reef remnant
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Were spartan 4s volunteers then?

gilded mason
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Yes

strong rose
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Correct

hazy shadow
craggy sierra
hazy shadow
reef remnant
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And spartan 4s were less effective because they didn’t really grow with their augments or something?

gilded mason
humble yacht
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Actually the iii’s augmentations represented several advancements compared to the ii’s, which led to high success rates

craggy sierra
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I would not call child grooming volunteers.

reef remnant
hazy shadow
humble yacht
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The reason the iii’s were considered expendable was the cheap armor

strong rose
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IVs were normal adult military veterans not raised exclusively from childhood.

reef remnant
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Did 3s have different augments to 2s?

hazy shadow
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Yes.

reef remnant
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Making them less powerful basically

strong rose
reef remnant
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I’m pretty rusty on my halo lore lmao

craggy sierra
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They weren't any less powerful, no.

humble yacht
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The processes were different but the end results were the same

hazy shadow
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It's okay, some of these guys are too lol

reef remnant
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Why are 2s bigger than 3s then

strong rose
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Older

reef remnant
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Ah

humble yacht
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2s got pituitary implants

strong rose
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3s were drawn from the refugees of glassed worlds

hazy shadow
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Augmentations and armor were different.

reef remnant
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And 3s were orphans?

hazy shadow
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Yes.

strong rose
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Yes

reef remnant
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Were they orphans whos parents were killed by insurrectionists?

humble yacht
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No

reef remnant
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Ah ok

humble yacht
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Orphaned by covenant

reef remnant
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Ah I see

strong rose
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Each of the three waves of IIIs were given different augmentations as the science advanced.

craggy sierra
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I don't think the insurrection usually had it out for civillians anyways.

reef remnant
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Which wave was noble 6

strong rose
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Beta iirc

gilded mason
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Beta

humble yacht
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Alpha company and beta company were the same

hazy shadow
humble yacht
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Gamma was different

craggy sierra
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You heard it here first folks. Noble 6 was a beta.

reef remnant
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He was given Mjolnir armour right?

humble yacht
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They got extra drugs

hazy shadow
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Gamma got the berzerker mods

hazy shadow
reef remnant
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Got it

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Did 4s wear mjolnir too?

humble yacht
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Yes

gilded mason
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Yes

hazy shadow
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Yep.

reef remnant
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Right

strong rose
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"Make the units better with new technology. Make more of them. And make them cheaper."
— Colonel James Ackerson

reef remnant
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Sorry for asking so many basic questions, just getting back into halo

strong rose
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That was for the mission of 3s

hazy shadow
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Ugh, now Ackerson is a character they really should have brought out more.

craggy sierra
hazy shadow
strong rose
gaunt oakBOT
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versed helm
craggy sierra
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There's an upper limit to how far you can manage a unified governance

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And also the answer is still not to start shooting at civilians who haven't actually started open conflict yet

gilded mason
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The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

versed helm
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they need to explore the interplanetary wars especially operation trebuchet and Charlemagne

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imagine a series about preston J cole

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from fighting insurrectionist to his last battle at Psi serpentis

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against the covenant armada

near tide
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The unsc didn't care about civilian casualties either

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Although the insurrectionists also nuked a planet

versed helm
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im very interested on the 22nd-23rd century warfare when the UNSC curbed the freidan and Kosloviks

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at sol system at that time

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i expect the expanse would fit the timeline

gilded mason
# near tide Although the insurrectionists also nuked a planet

Then again, what a lot of people don't think about is that there's numerous Innie factions, each with their own actions and ideals. While there's only one UNSC. So while some Innie factions are fine with nuking civilians, others don't. But there's only one UNSC, and they did indeed nuke civilians.

near tide
versed helm
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technically it was the CNA not unsc if i remember

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that nuked far ile

near tide
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Many of the main insurrectionist factions didn't care about human lives

gilded mason
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Still part of the same government

near tide
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Some were willing to guide the covenant into human space and planets

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as of silent storm

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although many were against it

versed helm
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the cole protocol comes in mind

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some of them even trade with the kig yar

gilded mason
near tide
gilded mason
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Nah, this was really early

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So basically nothing was known about them. And what was known was suspect, since ONI are known manipulators.

versed helm
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they were looking for the chip that would lead to the inner colonies and possibly earth

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which spartan group grey team was sent behind enemy lines to destroy any remaining data

gilded mason
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Oh yeah, I think other Innies' rationale at the time was "Obviously the Covenant have it out for the UNSC specifically. We'll show that we're not the enemy to focus on by giving them access to the heart of the UEG/UNSC. And they'll leave us alone."

versed helm
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that could lead to the innies

strong rose
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Innies just want out

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The one system that wanted out the most, was the one that would most rival Sol for supremacy. So while loosening their grip on the less developed and more distant colonies, they made Reach the center of the Unsc putting the most weapons closest to the innies.

dense falcon
tribal escarp
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Think that's just a brute warlord with a rocket launcher