lore-and-universe

[orchid kettle]

Because all of their interactions pre-2552 are detailed in New Blood.

There is no marriage proposal.

There is no opportunity for a marriage proposal.

The "question in the morning" is referencing the morning where Buck and Dare wake up after their week long bang fest, Buck asks "Does this ever have to end?", and Dare then proceeds to reveal the truth and then ghost Buck for a year

Or at least, Forbeck wants you to believe that's what ODST was referencing

because obviously in 2009 ODST was not written with New Blood in mind, and New Blood itself is basically just fan fiction.

[bronze prawn]

how does the lore work with the halo campaign evolved

[orchid kettle]

Which is why New Blood's events do not line up with ODST.

[bronze prawn]

does it mean that actually the UNSC brought more weapons that we though

[orchid kettle]

The intention is that the new backstory provided by New Blood supersedes the original ODST backstory

They simply cannot co-exist.

Buck being marriage happy, we are now expected to believe is just something he does with a woman he's not even one month into dating

Likely as a holdover from a previous draft or at least, a previous understanding where Forbeck was being more true to the original backstory

Because Forbeck himself constructs events in such a manner that a backstory detailed in ODST simply cannot exist.

[warm ridge]

Chapter Two, Chapter Seven, Chapter Eight, kind of Chapter 10, Chapter Thirteen, Chapter Sixteen.

Might be missing a few more chapters, but it's all there. You could just copy the quotes I got out of the book and find them yourself.
Can't really send page numbers because I'm using kindle, which uses a very different format vs the actual novels themselves or other ways of reading novels.

[orchid kettle]

Dare isn't even mentioned in Chapter 2. Are you just ctrl+F'ing to try and find all instances of the word "marriage?"

Because in Chapter 2 Buck just says his sister got married before she died.

[warm ridge]

Says there is.

[orchid kettle]

There's not.

[warm ridge]

Yet it says there was, and that it happened, and that he was waiting on Dare for a long while before they "figured it out" and settled on being just a couple that saw each other occasionally from 2554 on wards.

I haven't even gotten to what all Old Blood would be referencing here either, and I know it has more quotes I could pull from.

[orchid kettle]

None of your quotes are proof of anything.

Which is especially clear when you're highlighting quotes like Buck saying that Dare always stirred strong feelings in him

[warm ridge]

Is this because you think new blood is fan fiction so you can't take anything from the novel seriously at all, even if it flat out tells you it was about marriage?

[orchid kettle]

Except when its talking about marriage, its often after ODST.

[warm ridge]

Yea..Referencing events that happened before ODST.

We've been over this.

[orchid kettle]

Which come from ODST

Which was not written with New Blood in mind

and thus, do not fit into New Blood's events

[warm ridge]

Before it actually, because even ODST was referencing the same events.

Both the game & the novel are referencing the same events

[orchid kettle]

ODST's implications pointed towards a radically different backstory that's incompatiable with New Blood

Because ODST was written in 2009 with no intention for a half-prequel half-sequel book

[warm ridge]

Again, the novel flat out says this, picking up lines copied and pasted directly from ODST itself even that was referencing a past event as well.

[warm ridge]

The date a certain piece of media was written is entirely irrelevant here and doesn't matter, we're purely talking about the events they both reference, which is the same thing.

[orchid kettle]

And the pasted lines from the games don't fit with the book.

[orchid kettle]

It is relevant, because nobody who worked on ODST was involved with New Blood.

[warm ridge]

But it's not, as I have already proven. They even reference the same event.

[orchid kettle]

You havent proven anything.

[warm ridge]

Just in your mind because you think New Blood is fan fiction for whatever reason, so it can't be proof of anything.

[orchid kettle]

You can have fan fiction that "fits" neatly with an existing story

New Blood's interpretation is simply bad and inconsistent with ODST

[warm ridge]

Like I said here, they both do it. Both referring to the same event about Buck asking Dare to marry her, it all happens and comes full circle.

[orchid kettle]

Not because it wasnt written directly by Staten

But because it actively ignores and changes the meaning of certain lines

[warm ridge]

It's not though. I just proved this above by quoting things directly from the book.

[orchid kettle]

You didnt, lol

[warm ridge]

All of which talk about a past event that happened before Oct. 2552, or at least before the game itself.

[orchid kettle]

if anything, your continued confusion is just proof that the books and game do not mesh

Because you're arguing the existence of a hidden long term relationship and a secret marriage proposal that was never depicted on page, and according to the page, could not have happened

Again--

One week bang fest, part on bad terms. A year of no contact. The op to save Palmer. Part on bad terms. No contact until the events of the game.

Where is the marriage proposal

[warm ridge]

I did though, see here.
#lore-and-universe message
&
#lore-and-universe message

For a longer version containing everything, see here. #lore-and-universe message

Also this convo from 2554. #lore-and-universe message "You remember what you told me back in New Mombasa?" Wonder what that's talking about.

[orchid kettle]

Why would Buck omit that from his testimony

[orchid kettle]

And none of these quotes are proof.

[warm ridge]

I really don't care if something is written by Joseph staten or not dude. Everything here could be written by a Call of Duty writer and it wouldn't change anything I'm telling you.

[orchid kettle]

Buck hinting at marriage after the events of the game is not proof that he asked her years before 2552.

Which is what Buck said in the original ODST

And like I've been saying, if you believe New Blood's account, there is no moment where Buck could have actually proposed to Dare.

Unless he's crying in her DMs during the year she ghosted him, of course

[modest marsh]

The specifics of things relating to the sandbox are only loosely authoritative and frequently contradicted by non-gameplay material

The most well known example is the fact that the BR55HB is in ODST, but only for a cutscene

So yeah, Autumn probably has more equipment variety than what the gameplay shows

[orchid kettle]

New Blood copying and pasting lines from ODST does not grant New Blood any special authority. If anything, these copy and pasted lines only serve to highlight the conflicting backstories of ODST the game and the novel.

[warm ridge]

We basically have to ignore large sections of New Blood in order for anything you're saying to make sense btw, you know that right?

Which is obviously not going to happen.

[orchid kettle]

I mean, you have yet to actually provide any proof that New Blood says that Buck proposed to Dare prior to 2552.

[warm ridge]

but I already have, what?

[orchid kettle]

I can only assume if it existed, you surely would have found it by now.

[bronze prawn]

are you 2 still discussing new blood and odst

[warm ridge]

I firmly laid them all out here.

[orchid kettle]

And as I've told you

None of them are proof.

[warm ridge]

It's not my fault you're in such denial over it that you refuse to see it, despite one of them even directly naming the word marriage.

[orchid kettle]

Buck floating marriage after the events of the game is not proof that Buck has proposed to Dare at some unseen point in the past.

Buck saying that he has strong feelings for Dare is not proof that he has proposed.

Buck being told that after the war, Dare and him will "talk about us" is not proof that Buck proposed in the past.

All you've proven is that Buck likes Dare and has been hung up on her for a while.

Which was never in doubt.

[warm ridge]

You mean him floating marriage around based off a question he asked before ODST? Which is directly what he's referring too?
Yea, it's plenty proof for me. The novel says so multiple times.

[orchid kettle]

But that alone does not prove that he proposed to her.

It really doesn't.

You could argue the lines lifted from ODST do because ODST was written with the idea that Buck had proposed in the past

But New Blood is not of that mind.

[warm ridge]

But he never mentions his feelings here, he's referencing marriage based off a question he asked before ODST. "You remember what you told me back in New Mombasa?"

His feelings weren't brought up until he 1st saw her again after 6 years, saying he buried those feelings as deep as he could go.

[orchid kettle]

That is not proof that he proposed to her in the past.

[warm ridge]

It firmly states he did.

[orchid kettle]

It doesn't.

And I know it doesn't because you've yet to provide anything substantial.

If it was "firmly stated", you could just point to a chapter where Buck says "In 2548 I proposed to Dare"

But you haven't, because you can't

New Blood now wants you to dissociate the "question" spoken about repeatedly in Tayari Plaza with the "question" that Dare wants Buck to repeat to her after the game

These are now disconnected elements

I agree its stupid

But that's what the book wants

Now the "question" Dare wants repeated is what Buck says at the end of the game:

Dare: "Looks like they've found what they're looking for."
Buck joins her.

Buck: "What about you? What about us?"
Dare holds Buck's hand.

Dare: "Win this war...then ask me that again."

before of course there was a double meaning here

where "ask me that again" was likely referring a previous marriage proposal

but now no marriage proposal exists

and so now you can only take the line on its surface level interpretation, where its about Buck and Dare talking about "us"

Which, you can suppose immediately after the game, led to Buck pestering Dare about marriage

But the original previous proposal has been wiped from the record.

It simply does not exist anymore.

Like I've been saying, I don't disagree that its messy

But its messy because its not following ODST's original vision

[warm ridge]

Yes, it does.

Buck - “You remember what you told me back in New Mombasa?” [Marriage, in 2552, same thing is talked about in ODST.]
Dare - “I thought maybe you’d forgotten.”
Buck - “Did you?”
She shook her head.
Dare - “I said if you won the war, we’d talk about us.”
Buck - “Well, guess what? War’s over.”
Dare - "So." "How do you want to play this?"
Buck - "That's really up to you."
Dare - "Are you ready for this?"
I honestly wasn’t sure what she meant. Were we talking about us [Marriage] or the SPARTAN-IV program? Veronica meant to have it both ways, and she wasn’t about to tell me which topic we were discussing. Not yet.
Buck - "I think so."
Dare - "You'd better be more confident about it than that. Once you start down this road, there's no going back."

If I have to honestly place the words where they belong just so you can see it, then I don't think you bothered reading the novel at all.

I'll just keep sending this same thing to you 🤷‍♂️

It firmly states it. Right here, and in other areas.

[orchid kettle]

Its messy because Forbeck or 343 or whoever decided they were too good to play Buck and Dare's relationship straight

And we ended up with this crazy interpretation that just doesn't fit

[orchid kettle]

It doesn't.

Because of what I just said

New Blood wants you to disconnect those two ideas

because the original marriage proposal does not exist.

There is simply the vague idea of Buck and Dare "discussing their future"

[warm ridge]

I have, and can, and just did again. The only person here who refuses to see it is you, and you can't prove it doesn't happen.

[orchid kettle]

Logically, its difficult to prove a negative.

[warm ridge]

They aren't.

[orchid kettle]

Thats why you generally have to prove something did happen.

But Forbeck is clear in his timeline

Week long bang fest where Buck had no idea what Dare's true identity was. No marriage proposal. She ghosts him. Meet again just to fight and part on bad terms. No marriage proposal. They meet again in ODST

Originally, ODST implied a marriage proposal happened "years ago"

[warm ridge]

Which he later did ask her again, you know, the part where he was asking if Dare forgot about it. Which was about marriage.

[orchid kettle]

But no such proposal exists

No such proposal can exist.

according to New Blood.

[orchid kettle]

In the original game it was about marriage

[warm ridge]

But it does, I just linked it above in plain text.

[orchid kettle]

Or at the very least, the "question" mentioned in Tayari Plaza was about marriage

The most you can argue is that Buck is proposing for the first time in ODST in 2552

But that is not him proposing before 2552

which is what the game originally implied

[warm ridge]

Did you not read the parts that state marriage?

[orchid kettle]

I did.

[empty bloom]

This is still going on, huh.

[orchid kettle]

You continue to be unconvincing.

[warm ridge]

I really don't understand why you keep saying a marriage proposal didn't happen, because New Blood says it did.

[orchid kettle]

It doesn't.

[warm ridge]

if you're gonna ask "When" again, here. #lore-and-universe message

[orchid kettle]

Because it didn't.

[warm ridge]

I just showed you it does.

Multiple times now.

[orchid kettle]

Like I said, the most you can argue is that Buck proposes in 2552.

But in 2552 is not before 2552.

[warm ridge]

#lore-and-universe message for anyone else reading this here's a bunch of links I made to what I'm talking about.

[orchid kettle]

Like Ive been repeating, New Blood does not want you to link the Tayari Plaza question and the "question" at the end of Coastal Highway anymore

In the original game, the idea was that these two questions were the same

But that is no longer the case

[warm ridge]

You read the parts that state marriage, you read the parts that state Buck asked Dare about marriage, and you refuse to believe it happened at all. How are you this blind?

[empty bloom]

2+ hours only for the most sensible answer to be "The writer did not think this through".

[warm ridge]

Dude it literally copies lines directly from it, yes it does.

[orchid kettle]

It doesn't.

[warm ridge]

Still is.

[orchid kettle]

Its not.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, it basically just boils down to Forbeck trying to punch things up that really didnt need punching up

[warm ridge]

It does,
Word for word actually.
Despite the insanity of the moment, or maybe because of it, I had the nerve to ask Veronica about us—her and me—as we left New Mombasa behind. “Win this war,” she said, “then ask me that again.”

Plus Buck asked about it here #lore-and-universe message

[orchid kettle]

And we ended up with a series of events that do not line up with the original game

[orchid kettle]

Again, not proof that a proposal happened pre-2552. Try again.

The "ask me that again" is now simply Dare referencing what Buck asked her 0.2 seconds before that moment

Dare: "Looks like they've found what they're looking for."
Buck joins her.

Buck: "What about you? What about us?"
Dare holds Buck's hand.

Dare: "Win this war...then ask me that again."

"What about us?"

That's it.

Before it had a double meaning, now it has a single meaning.

The most boring meaning.

Because a pre-existing marriage proposal does not exist in New Blood.

[warm ridge]

This is basically chalking up to you being in denial over what the book actually states in plain text, where it says Buck asked Dare to marry him sometime before the events of ODST, and Dare never gave him a straight answer.

This is factual, anything you try to say against this is pure fan fiction and isn't worth arguing about anymore. If it gets brought up again, I'm just going to repeat the very same things I've already shown you here directly from the novel. I've also shown you when, where, chapters, etc. It's really not my fault you're this in denial over it.

[orchid kettle]

I'd say if anything I'm talking what the book says pretty seriously

Dare ghosts him for a year. The Palmer op. Ignore each other for six years. Game happens

[warm ridge]

Taking the book seriously would involve you not ignoring large sections of the novel, which you're clearly doing to fit some sort of personal agenda that is a waste of time to argue with.

[orchid kettle]

You're the one arguing a super secret relationship we never saw totally unfolded in the background in direct opposition of what the book says.

[warm ridge]

so yea, I'm done trying to change your mind when the novel makes the events pretty clear, that a marriage proposal did happen before the events of ODST.

[orchid kettle]

And now the "question that went unanswered" is "Does this ever have to end?"

We know this because it happens in the morning (or at least, when they wake up, the time of day is never specified), it goes unanswered, and it leads to them parting on bad terms. Its also like, the only question that's remotely about their relationship that Buck ever levies at Dare prior to ODST

The only way it doesnt fit is how its not about marriage and how it makes no sense for Buck to repeat this when the war is over

But, you know, take that up with Forbeck, not me.

Thats why Im saying that New Blood now no longer wants you to link the tayari plaza dialogue with coastal highway

These are now two distinct questions

When Dare asks about "The Question From New Mombasa"

shes specifically talking about coastal highway, and coastal highway alone.

[warm ridge]

BTW
All my messages have been pretty clear that it happened before ODST, not before the year 2552. It doesn't really matter when it happened as long as it's before ODST itself.
Could of happened within the very same month, like when Dare contacted Buck again about the mission leading up to ODST. After all, ODST starts Oct. 20th. Dare and Buck had communication before Oct. 20th.

[orchid kettle]

Nov 2552 is after ODST

November, you see, comes after October

And it does matter that its pre-2552

Dare (COM): "That's what I miss most about you, Buck. The way your mouth was always a little faster than your brain. Look, don't start about my job. We both agreed to end it."
Buck retrieves his silenced pistol and holsters it. He then tries to take out his assault rifle, but it is stuck.

Buck: "That was years ago, Veronica! I'm (grunt) a little (grunt) fuzzy (grunt) on the..."
He finally gets his assault rifle out.

Buck: "...details. Must have met a lot of other saps since then. Why pick me for this safari?"
Dare (COM): "First, you're the best soldier I know, and second... You don't really remember, that night? What you asked me in the morning?"
A Phantom flies overhead. Buck looks up.

Buck: "I remember not getting an answer..."

[wispy pewter]

boomer ahh romance

[orchid kettle]

I suppose you could argue that maybe Buck proposed to her after their breakup but vibe-wise that just seems unlikely

Its funny too because its hard to point towards any moment in New Blood where they both agree to end the relationship.

The one week bangfest pretty soundly reads like Dare skipping out on Buck against his wishes

And not really a mutual thing

Trench's interpretation that they may have kept going even after the proposal went unanswered would imo fit

Such a thing would naturally drive a wedge between them, eventually leading to things fizzling out, perhaps to the point that both were ready to call it quits

while breaking up the instant the proposal went unanswered could perhaps be described more like Buck breaking up with her

Or Dare pumping the brakes and ending things in that instant, though I dunno to me I'd call that a flat rejection, not simply an unanswered proposal

[orchid kettle]

Reading it again, I think its also clear that you can't argue that the Tayari Plaza question was asked during the year Dare was ghosting Buck, as Dare sounds like she's describing how her and Buck shared a night together that resulted in the question in the morning. It doesnt really make sense for her to speak so fondly of a crazy guy's DM.

Strengthening the idea that Forbeck intended for the last day of the bangfest to be the Tayari Plaza question

Which ostensibly was not about marriage, but just Buck wishing they could have remained in that moment forever.

I think the most you could argue is that "wishing you could hold someone forever is basically a proposal if you REALLY think about it!"

But again I think ODST was hinting towards a proper, down on one knee, ring in hand kind of proposal

Having it be anything else starts getting into "It's true, from a certain point of view" levels of obvious bs

I think a charitable interpretation of Forbeck's version of events is that Buck and Dare, despite spending very little actual time together, are so undeniably and passionately in love that the prospect of marriage is on the table despite their actual relationship time being measured in weeks

What I don't think Forbeck is ever trying to imply is that Buck was lying to us about never seeing Veronica for those six years

[empty bloom]

TBH I think it's the only interpretation that makes sense if we are to believe they got on for a while and well.

Just feels... IDK, more realistic.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, in hindsight it sounds like it would be difficult to construct a situation where Buck considers the proposal "unanswered" but Dare can somehow describe the breakup as mutual

Without going that route, at least

[stoic hamlet]

I still personally prefer the ODST angle for them, rather than New Blood and on.

It feels more believable, and, notably, nothing actually changes with their roles and such, so the question should have the same answer.

[hollow peak]

Ok, so I’ve been trying to work out where the main covenant species stand on humanity after the war of Annihilation, and this is what I’ve got so far. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

Sangheli aren’t particularly united, but the dominant faction (the Swords of Sanghelios) are very much pro-human, and work with them often, despite lingering resentment on both sides.

Unggoy are a naturally peaceful race, and commonly enslaved by various factions. If they can choose, they will either keep to themselves or ally with humanity, either directly or through a group like the swords of sanghelios.

Mgalekgolo have pretty much exclusively gone home and kept to themselves, bar a few exceptions.

San Shyuum have mostly died or gone into hiding, but the few who have re-emerged are staunchly anti-human, with one potential exception.

Kig-Yar are, as ever, largely out for themselves. They are as close to true neutral as possible, allying with the highest bidder, human and alien alike.

Jiralhanae confuse me a bit. Many accept humans as allies, but I can’t think of any who ally with human groups, rather than accepting humans into their own groups. I’d appreciate if anyone could clear that up for me.

Yanme’e basically just went home and keep to themselves.

Huragok are also fairly neutral. Most are good-natured, but a few remain with covenant remnants and other antagonistic groups.

Am I missing anything?

[empty bloom]

Every species has divided loyalty by virtue of each being independent.

• Sangheili are as described; The main political force is the Swords as far as anyone knows, and the Swords themselves are vaguely pro-human due to their leadership (Thel Vadam) pushing for his "Concert of Worlds" theory. The rest of the Sangheili either align with the Swords, or are operating as they see fit, which is neutral at best towards humans.

• Unggoy are not really naturally peaceful. They are not allied with humanity, and the closest thing to truly organized Unggoy society on Balaho sided with the Created for their technology. Overall they are extremely common in post-Covenant splinter factions and as a species are not particularly loyal or disloyal to the ideals of either. Considering they were primarily a slave race for the Covenant, this tracks.

• Mgalekgolo, similarly to Unggoy, are spread out too much to have an easy read on who they consistently have sided with.

• San Shyuum are in hiding as described, primarily.

• Kig-Yar are spread out and largely doing what they want, taking to newfound freedom eagerly and readily.

• Jiralhanae keep to their packs as always, typically aligning with the Banished more due to the threat the Created posed than anything else, combined with greater access to resources and trade.

• Yanme queens largely keep to themselves.

• Huragok have no actual agency unless granted it by another species willing to oblige their nature, and thus don't really have 'politics' to speak of.

[hollow peak]

As regards the Unggoy, I was thinking largely of Legacy of Onyx, where they’re extremely chill. But then that’s more representative of the Onyx colonisers than the Unggoy as a whole.

And as regards the Huragok, my reference was similar: Legacy of Onyx and Hunters in the Dark have some very active and friendly Huragok.

Thanks for the clarification though!

Still tho, I do feel like the absence of any human-allied Jiralhanae is kinda weird.

[slim salmon]

Rank 117 would be kinda fire

[stoic hamlet]

It’s actually the opposite, per the field manual.

I’m not a fan of the special treatment regardless, and it’s never actually come up, but I digress.

[spark pivot]

doesn't the man already have every medal in the UNSC Navy already? (except for maybe POW, but he should get that too after the events of Halo 5 imo

[orchid kettle]

To this day I honestly wonder if the reason why we have the Spartan Branch, instead of IVs merely being in the Navy, is because 343 decided there should never be another Spartan with the rank of "Master Chief" ever again

[stoic hamlet]

I also assume it’s because they wanted to move away from military sci-fi. (Ignoring the debate of it even really was)

The IV’s and Spartans overall are treated much more like super heroes, even in newer pieces of media set during the war.

That kind of falls flat if they’re beholden to a chain of command.

Like, in the decade plus where 343/HS have had the reigns, the chronicle about Red Team where Naomi acknowledging she had to link up with UNSC forces and report in to any local command is the one time where Spartans actually seemed beholden to a larger institution.

[modest marsh]

While Grunts absolutely have the capacity to be cordial and civilized, the whole point of the Covenant recruiting them as part of their military was because they had proven themselves capable fighters who savagely fought until their homeworld was threatened with glassing.

Any given covenant species, both culturally and biologically, has strong reason to have predispositions towards violence and tribalism since that is precisely what their leadership select for as worthy member species.

Part of the reason Brutes became the “new favorites” so quickly is because they embodied the exact criteria that the Covenant particularly encourages, but they’re not exclusive in that respect

[hollow peak]

Interesting. Gotta say, I love the interactions between species post-war. I’m a sucker for the trope of old enemies becoming allies, from the Ur-Didact and Forthencho, to Asum ‘Mdama, Molly Patel and the gang. I seriously hope we get to see more friendly relationships between species in the future. What do you think?

Oh, and Olympia Vale and Thel ‘Vadam.

I just love strong, genuine cross-species relationships.

So cool, and so interesting

[modest marsh]

I do think that even with the formal hostilities between species largely being ended with the close of the covenant war, there’s a lot of room for there to be ongoing xenophobic conflict that you often see in other scifi settings

How these are grappled with are important

One of the starkest contrasts between the human and alien societies is the fact that humanity at large is predominantly secular, which I can only imagine would be a troublesome prospect for the majority of the former covenant client species who by default were at least beholden to a religious institution at some point

For thousands of years, their religion was a binding element that ostensibly secured peaceful coexistence due to the inevitability of the Great Journey, which promised an egalitarian transcendence

Without that, there’s a higher propensity to “other” disparate groups due to cultural and physiological differences, among others, since there is no shared purpose or goal

Arbiter wants to establish a Concert of World, which would, in effect, function as a Space UN that would presumably try to mend the interspecies relationships that have been so far largely only held together by either religious cults or short term political arrangements

The Banished are a big obstacle to this though, because they offer a more attractive choice in which these tribal tendencies are encouraged and redirected towards rival factions

[sonic lagoon]

Why are the banished at war with UNSC?

[modest marsh]

Because their goals are in total opposition to each other

It’s constituent member clans and mercenary groups are generally comprised of former Covenant who have no real interest in allying with their former enemies either, a problem the Arbiter has frequently faced given that most Sangeheili clans do not share his level of tolerance for humans

The Banished’s human recruits are largely paramilitary mercenaries, UNSC defectors, and outer colonist rebels

Atriox and other Banished leadership are predominantly Brutes who are trying to establish a political foothold in the wider galaxy, which means they’re competing for resources and the favor of independent factions

The banished also relies heavily on piracy and salvaging the equipment of their enemies as a central part of their industry, so even if they had no other reason to be hostile, they’re still a band of raiders and bandits

[vagrant ocean]

And bandits and raiders tend to harm or kill the people they rob. And these bandits also eat their victims.

[modest marsh]

Also, to be clear, they’re just as hostile to the Swords of Sanghelios

Last we heard, they were engaging in an active raid/invasion of Suban

[vagrant ocean]

Arguably even more so since it’s part of the greater Sangheili-Jiralhanae conflict. The fact that Suban is the only source of kemuksuru they can use for their weapons is just a bonus.

[modest marsh]

That’s the framing device for the multiplayer map Prism, where you can see a huge naval battle occurring in the sky

[vagrant ocean]

With a Banished dreadnought that has an electro-laser

[sonic lagoon]

What factions are the banished allied with?

[modest marsh]

They mostly have a bunch of smaller Brute and Elite clans within their ranks, but they’ve also partnered with the New Colonial Alliance, a human rebel group largely led by UNSC defectors

They’re also loosely affiliated with the Venetian criminal underworld, which is where they are sourcing Janissary mercenaries

[still heron]

Reminds me of the whole Arbiter title pre Fal.

[still heron]

I'm still rooting for the Elite who made a poem for Palmer. Especially given the gag.

[wispy pewter]

because they hate humans

[vagrant ocean]

There are literally humans in the Banished.

[sonic lagoon]

What is the end goal of the Banished?

[unique rune]

party

[wispy pewter]

they were mistreated werent they

im pretty sure one of the saber team books they were being killed for what cortana did

[wispy pewter]

to be unbanished

[sonic lagoon]

Uhhh what does that mean?

[wispy pewter]

I dont even know tbh

they are war mongering people

[vagrant ocean]

Not really, there’s one that shows up in Rubicon I think

[sonic lagoon]

So what do the banishes want to have accomplished?

Fiscal and social policies.

[unique rune]

they want bedtime to be moved from 9pm to 11pm

[sonic lagoon]

That makes sense, I hate having to go to bed early.

[stoic hamlet]

Nah, early bedtime means you wake up early, and you can just enjoy the morning.

It’s bliss.

[minor sky]

The real reason Atriox broke with the Covenant was because he was sick of the Prophet's enforcement of going to sleep at 8:30

[sonic lagoon]

I’m more a night person. More productive.

[sleek vigil]

This is certain opinion I've held for some time and been wanting to share.

It's that the Halo 3 Johnson's final dialogues - I find the music of that moment to be almost too emotionally manipulative, bordering on Kitsch. Initially, the music stays rather static, then when Johnson delivers 'send me out with a bang', the entire string orchestra, heavily cello-based, just veers into crying, in a very much clichéd increase in dynamics. Halo 3 in general is very reliant on music to sell, no to manipulate, the player.

Halo 2's 'Unforgotten' - melancholic but understated, serving as a general mood piece for the game's bittersweet ending rather than hammering specific emotional beats

Halo: Reach's 'Lone Wolf' - doesn't tell you how to feel about Noble Six's death. The music suggests inevitability and solemnity but leaves space for the player's own emotional response

Halo 4's silence after Ivanoff Station - incredibly bold choice. After witnessing mass human vaporization and then that vulnerable Cortana conversation, having no music forces the player to sit with the horror and intimacy of those moments without being guided

These are all examples of trusting the scene, the performances, and the player to do the emotional work. The music supports or suggests rather than dictates.

Halo 3's approach, by contrast, is more like classic Hollywood scoring where the orchestra swells to tell you 'this is the sad part, feel sad now'. It's effective, sure - it works on most players - but it's also more heavy-handed.

Perhaps this is exactly why people feel so strongly about Halo 3.

[unique rune]

the power of playing a game in middle school

[modest marsh]

They’re like Outer Heaven from Metal Gear

Basically, a military junta that exists as a reaction to the unfair treatment of soldiers serving under other regimes

Ostensibly they’re anti-authoritarian, but obviously they’re more or less beholden to the cult of Atriox

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah it’s just bad writing covered up.

[still heron]

It doesn't help it's soundtrack at all.

[empty bloom]

Actually bothering to intelligently use silence is a major factor that, in my mind, defines talent.

There's a reason I hate the decision to put music in Reach's intro.

[still heron]

That's one opinion that is just is.

[sleek vigil]

I don't think I got that.

[minor sky]

Ivanoff will always be the most striking and probably favorite scene of mine in all of Halo

Like- that is Halo 4 at its best

For all of the downgrades made to the gameplay or the messy pacing, that scene is proof that Halo 4 is able to be something great

[gloomy ocean]

grunts survived so long cause they knew when to let people make mistakes

play the long game

their not as dumb as people think

[amber solstice]

the shortest ones played the longest game

[west zenith]

They play fighting games

Footsies

[gloomy ocean]

grunts act as translators and other minor roles

with insane potential

you could get dirt noone else can

[carmine sleet]

I think you are vastly overselling how tactical the Grunts can be. They've not been playing a long game to outlast everyone else. The majority of them are just trying to not get killed by whoever it is in charge of them

[amber solstice]

Grunts were like the rare earth minerals: unnoticed but used in everything.

[west zenith]

Dig into this later actually: who do the halo cast main in street fighter

[carmine sleet]

I'd assume they'd be playing Dead or Alive or Killer Instinct

[gloomy ocean]

whats the difference?

there is benefit to keeping your head down

[carmine sleet]

That's not exactly winning against your oppressors

[gloomy ocean]

their opressors let them back in

[carmine sleet]

Like, the Grunts are very much an oppressed people under the Covenant and many of its splinter groups

[gloomy ocean]

and even gave them higher ranks

even political jobs

[carmine sleet]

The Grunts were still oppressed in the Covenant after their rebellion. Things were a little nicer but they still were under the boot of the other species within the empire

[gloomy ocean]

the grunts are not brave but they are far from stupid

their cowardice keeps them alive

to qoute starscream from transformers "cowards tend to live to see the day"

they do their best with what they have and thrive in it

in the CE novel a grunt uses a wounded elite as a get out of combat free card

smart

[frank adder]

unless you were in the way of chief

[gloomy ocean]

even chief stated grunts are not to be mocked

[frank adder]

you get destroyed

[gloomy ocean]

in a group even chief treats them like threats

[frank adder]

not to be mocked but are to be blasted

[gloomy ocean]

same with jackals

[frank adder]

wow prohibited text?

kewl

[gloomy ocean]

so yes grunts arent gonna be dominating anytime soon but their not dense

they play their roles

and do their tasks

[frank adder]

the amount of jackals i have sent to the shadow realm over the years probably amounts to their total population in lore times 3

[gloomy ocean]

even jackals hate jackals

they constantly infight to the point they need handlers

[west zenith]

Honestly jackals are real af

[gloomy ocean]

they have to be caged up

[frank adder]

grunts are cute but jackals are just skinny dino animals to me man

[west zenith]

They don't care about no great journey

Just tryna get paid

[frank adder]

i wonder if their long beaks is a reference to some noses

[gloomy ocean]

or eat

their bird people cause their relatively weak

and fragile

[carmine sleet]

If you mean the ones seen during Halo 2 when Arbiter is getting dragged through the prison, those Jackals likely did some sort of crime which landed them within that prison. That's not normal for Jackals to be caged up like that

[west zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-charlie-pim-that-was-really-bad-jimmy-fallon-gif-14808506353584455609

[gloomy ocean]

so prefer range or ambush

an average human could probably cave a jackals skull in

[frank adder]

100%

chickens are fragile as all heck too

[gloomy ocean]

the fact that jackals are well known enough to be criminals says alot tho

doesnt it

[carmine sleet]

Painting an entire species in such a way is a very dangerous way of thinking

[modest marsh]

Chickens aren’t 200lbs on average

[gloomy ocean]

this isnt that tho

[frank adder]

hollow bones are hollow bones

[gloomy ocean]

jackal society is legit horrible

if your not born rich you might as well die

[frank adder]

i bet elites do some insane patter recognition on those jackals

[gloomy ocean]

your entire life will be serving a shipmaster or criminal empire

[west zenith]

Admittedly I don't think there are really any good societies in halo

Humanity are like turbo fascists

[gloomy ocean]

they dont even trust you with gernades even grunts get gernades

[modest marsh]

Jackals’ hollow bones are resilient enough to withstand the explosive force necessary to make multistory leaps and running 40mph without snapping while being heavier than most humans

[gloomy ocean]

thankfully humanity has tools

[carmine sleet]

You know Jackals not using grenades is purely a gameplay thing, right?

[frank adder]

tell that to the melee button

[gloomy ocean]

i like to think there is a trust issue deep down too

[modest marsh]

I mean, we have literally seen a melee fight between a regular human and a jackal in the game

[west zenith]

Me sneaking into the jackal barracks and breaking all their wishbones to get unlimited wishes

[frank adder]

oh?

[gloomy ocean]

jackals are barely tolerated as is in the covenant

[carmine sleet]

Pretty sure this was debunked ages ago. The UNSC is by no means a perfect society, but they're not that bad

[gloomy ocean]

their great snipers

and fodder infantry

[modest marsh]

In halo 4, one of the Ivanoff security guards gets tackled to the ground and has his neck snapped by a jackal

[frank adder]

oooh that, yeah that games doesnt even exist to me

[carmine sleet]

You can't just act like Halo 4 doesn't exist

[frank adder]

and those jackals are terribly redesigned

[gloomy ocean]

i actually like the raptor look

[west zenith]

Eh you can do whatever you want

[frank adder]

who fought it was a good idea to make em look like piranhas

[frank adder]

i can

and i do

the only game i have not installed in the MCC

[gloomy ocean]

their a sub species

thats still canon

[modest marsh]

I don’t think you can have a productive discussion about halo lore while also ignoring over half of its fiction

[gloomy ocean]

just like halo 4 elites are still canon

their just not the same exact thing

[west zenith]

I just don't think you can have a productive conversation about Halos Lore tbh

[frank adder]

you could, if you only keep it to the bungie era. back when halo mattered

[gloomy ocean]

i find it interesting jackals are a woman led society

[frank adder]

and the people making it actually loved it

[gloomy ocean]

usually scifi writers go for the a king angle

but female jackals are generally larger and more powerful

[west zenith]

I still will chatting about it and enjoy talking about it but things are definitely messy so I try not to sweat the details of canon too much

[modest marsh]

Okay well even sticking the Bungie era, it’s strongly implied jackals would regularly overpower and eat other sapient species, mainly humans

In halo 2 itself they obviously think they have a chance at beating arbiter

[gloomy ocean]

i made the cave in skull comement cause modern tools make it easy

a 1v1 wouldnt be so simple

[frank adder]

but the carbine said otherwise

[gloomy ocean]

if yoru being paid you will fight god

if someone asks

[west zenith]

Personally I know I could mess a jackals life up

[frank adder]

i always slay the jackals on sacred icon

[modest marsh]

It’s mostly because they’re hungry, seemingly

[west zenith]

I'm him

[carmine sleet]

You realise that Bungie wanted to stop at Combat Evolved, right? Then after 2 cut a deal to make a couple more games for Microsoft and go their separate ways. Bungie wanted to be done with the series, 343/HS wants to keep it going

[frank adder]

just keep the grunts with me

[gloomy ocean]

grunts eat people too

[modest marsh]

It would be weird if they didn’t

[west zenith]

That's just not true at all. I also don't think it's worthwhile to get into a Bungie vs 343 debate here

I think that stuff is always a waste of time

[gloomy ocean]

i usually go by a rule of if it hasnt been contradicted yet its canon

[frank adder]

and bungie managed to put out bangers of games while 343 just shouldn't have bothered with what came out

[gloomy ocean]

yeah cool

[frank adder]

look at the halo 3 viddocs

[gloomy ocean]

can we justt not

[modest marsh]

The problem with that is official material contradicts itself

[gloomy ocean]

do this

[frank adder]

you dont see that soulful approach at a game in the later titles

[west zenith]

Id really rather not yea

[modest marsh]

“Soulful” lmfao

[gloomy ocean]

both companies had their issues with lore

343 has multiple retcons

[carmine sleet]

So have Bungie

[gloomy ocean]

plus the whole reach book and game being different thing

[modest marsh]

No one is safe from retcon hell

[gloomy ocean]

i meant bungie sorry

[west zenith]

Like I don't even totally disagree I really don't like 4 and 5 but it's all halo whether you like it or not

[frank adder]

gladly

[gloomy ocean]

i like how 4 expanded on AI death in halo

it shows how horrifying it is

[frank adder]

but the games are the most important thing, i think all that lore on the side is interesting but not all that important to the experience of the games

[gloomy ocean]

we didnt get to see it close up like that

[west zenith]

The Cortana stuff is pretty much the only thing I care for from halo 4

[frank adder]

until halo 5 did, because you needed to read a whole heap of books to understand what the heck is going on

[gloomy ocean]

sadly alot of halo lore is side content

[west zenith]

I mean true but we are in the lore chat

[gloomy ocean]

mostly books

so many books

[frank adder]

i know i know but its more like in the end the best thing to go by may be the lore in the actual games i guess

[gloomy ocean]

unless you want to count parts of legends as canon but i consider those more artistic license

[modest marsh]

This is a complete misunderstanding of what happened with 5, as someone who has engaged with 99% of all halo material ever

[frank adder]

i feel that lore goes too wild outside of the game with a lot of games

[frank adder]

misunderstanding?

[modest marsh]

A marketing strategy to get people to buy books just because they reference characters in the game does not actually mean they were useful for understanding the plot of said game

Halo 5 is almost entirely self contained and complete in its explanation

[west zenith]

It's so hard to have a conversation about canon in halo because it's literally impossible for both the original trilogy and the reclaimer saga to both be canon so I just tend to be like

So long as it's not totally ridiculous engage with it as you please

[gloomy ocean]

i just try to have fun

man

[modest marsh]

You don’t need to watch Nightfall to get who Locke was, you’re given everything you need to know from the outset: he’s Infinity’s hitman

[carmine sleet]

Having knowledge from any of the novels or other material released during the leadup to Halo 5 means nothing because the majority of it is irrelevant to the narrative of the game

[west zenith]

This is the best approach!

[frank adder]

i guess thats why OGs stay with the bungie era side of things

[west zenith]

I mostly just care about inter personal relationships of characters

[frank adder]

same, with the bungie games

[gloomy ocean]

yeah we get it

[carmine sleet]

But they both are canon? I'm not sure what you mean at all

[west zenith]

I largely prefer the Bungie interpretation of the lore, but I really do love what 343 was cooking with chief and I really hope they get followed up on

[gloomy ocean]

halo lore was always retconned

[carmine sleet]

Like, Halo 3 ends with Chief going to sleep, Halo 4 picks up 4 years later

[gloomy ocean]

brutes appear in reach the game

but not the novel

[modest marsh]

Very little from Legends hasn’t been codified as true apart from visual stylization that is consistent across all mediums

[gloomy ocean]

elites change designs between games with no excuse

[west zenith]

Halo 4 implies major events happening in Halo 3 that simply didnt happen

[gloomy ocean]

grunts changed heights slightly

[modest marsh]

Walk me through that one

[west zenith]

Like a truce with the covenant, the Human Forerunner retcon etc etc

[carmine sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/dandadan-dumbfounded-momo-ayase-ayase-momo-ken-takakura-gif-14575386895602202640

[gloomy ocean]

chief just somehow gets new armor in infinite

and its fine

not every piece of lore needs to make sense

[modest marsh]

That’s acknowledged in a trailer and the game itself

[gloomy ocean]

the excuse is silly

and thats ok

[west zenith]

I don't really want to get into which interpretation of the universe you like better because it's subjective

[modest marsh]

The Step Inside trailer shows his new armor being built, and the BIOS screen provides a manufacturing date

[carmine sleet]

Chief was talking about the truce with the Elites, which in Halo 3, were known as Covenant Separatists, the Human-Forerunner retcon happened in Halo 3, via the Terminals (Which were written by Bungie), not Halo 4

[west zenith]

But they are incompatible

[modest marsh]

Halo 3 is incompatible with CE

In CE we’re told that the Halo ring doesn’t kill flood

In 3 it apparently explodes so hard it kills everything including flood

2 is also incompatible with CE

Cortana says there’s no survivors, turns out Johnson did

[west zenith]

Chief only says the Covenant in game, and the terminals were written by Frank o Connor who was only a community manager at the time, and contradict with everything else presented in 3's main narrative

[west zenith]

Also true

[gloomy ocean]

well what else would he say

their the covenant

[west zenith]

They aren't

[modest marsh]

Hey can you look at halo 3’s credits and check who is on the writing team

[west zenith]

They are the sangheili

[gloomy ocean]

no i mean as far as hes fought hes called them the covenant

so his instinct would be to assume the truce failed

[west zenith]

Also moreover I'm not trying to delegitimize Halo 4 and I am saying YES halo 2 and 3 are also in many ways not compatible with CE

[gloomy ocean]

hes a warrior

[carmine sleet]

Frank did not go rogue and sneak that stuff in without other people having to approve it

[west zenith]

My point is that drawing lines on what is or is not canon is really hard for Halo because so much of it is contradicting

[gloomy ocean]

he assumes the truce failed cause thats his mechanical brain clicking it into place

[modest marsh]

Frank was a managing editor for 3 per it’s own credits, second billing to Joe Staten, so idk why this stuff about him being a CM continues to be pervasive

He also worked as a CM

Everyone did a little bit of everything at Bungie

[carmine sleet]

The Terminals have been canon since Halo 3. But they got clarification and expansion upon thanks to the Forerunner trilogy of novels

[modest marsh]

I just don’t think there’s a real contradiction here other than the phrasing being a bit odd

[west zenith]

I should really clarify this is not like an attack so I'm sorry if it's coming off that way

[modest marsh]

The only real retcon that the 343 forerunners had was their timeline and the existence of a rival human civilization

[west zenith]

point is I dont think getting into it over what is or isnt canon or what is or isnt truly "halo" isnt productive

[modest marsh]

In both the Bungie and 343i interpretation, Forerunners are a splinter of early protohuman that was uplifted by precursors

The when and how was vague with Bungie

[west zenith]

Well yeah I dont think anyone reasonably believes that forerunners were literally biologically modern anatomic humans

even in the bungie interpretation

its definitely more of a Humanity was chosen/cultivated/made (several conflicting ideas) to be their successors after halo went off

Im personally really not a fan of the ancient humanity stuff but eh

[modest marsh]

Forerunners in the current canon are strongly implied to essentially be 99.9% human in their “natural” forms but their entire civilization has genetically engineered themselves for millennia to the point they no longer resemble their progenitors

The point of the ancient human civilization was to make the Didact have a reason to be an antagonist

[west zenith]

no yeah I get it

it just doesnt do a whole lot for me

in general I wish Halo didnt need a big bad guy because im alot more interested in the character work 343 started

[modest marsh]

Since Halo 3 ends with Chief drifting towards a forerunner planet with this dramatic scary music sting with the obvious implication being that there’s some as of yet uncovered forerunner threat

It’s a shooter game, you need a bad guy to shoot at, or at least minions for him to lead

That left you with 1) covenant again 2) forerunners, again

[carmine sleet]

It'd be weird if Halo 4 just had us fighting a completely new set of enemies and nothing related to what we've seen previously

[west zenith]

I mean yeah

[carmine sleet]

Like, imagine we got the tease for the mysterious Forerunner planet and then Halo 4 revealed it's just some planet with large snake aliens and had no references to the Forerunners

[west zenith]

I understand that it needs it and that it needs to be the covenant

it just feels like it gets in the way a little

but theres no way around it

I hope Halo Infinite doesnt get dropped like a hot potato the way Halo 5 did in whatever the next game is

Despite everything I really loved the campaign so much and like

it was peak

I wanna see more

[vagrant ocean]

Unlikely considering Edge of Dawn is the First Strike to Halo Infinite’s CE.

[west zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-anime-gif-22734101

[vagrant ocean]

Not sure what that means.

[west zenith]

Oh I misinterpreted what you said

[tight badge]

How Many brutes do you think it would take to kill a hippo without weapons and armor

[modest marsh]

Uh, one probably

A hippo bull is 3300lbs to a Brute’s lower bound of 1125lbs, but for one Brutes were evolved on a planet with double Earth’s gravity which means in their natural habitat, “smaller” brutes would weigh on the order of 2250lbs

With the bigger ones being a square 3000lbs

But even putting aside weight comparisons, Brutes clearly have much higher muscle density than hippos

Brutes are, even at their smaller size, disproportionately more agile than any hippo

They’re regularly shown to leap over ten meters horizontally in a single bound which isn’t something possible for any mammal let alone one as large as brutes

That level of explosive force alone would rip apart any real animal

[fading flume]

Just One. We must remember the strength and speed of a brute. For starters, they are more than capable of lifting a Spartan, 1,500 pounds of wriggling super human dawned with the most dense armor possible, with a single hand.

Considering their intelligence as well, I’d imagine it dodged the Hippo if it was charging and bludgeon it to death with its bare hands. Keep in mind it’s more than capable of flipping it on its back.

[tight badge]

Hippos weigh 10,000 pounds

[fading flume]

Zoo kept ones for sure, but we also have to remember if we’re going with extremes we have Tartarus.

Someone with the power to easily rip a whole Hunter in-half, apparently

[tight badge]

Tartarus can’t lift a hippo

A punch from a brute would hurt it but not as much hippos have 2 inches of blubber that doesn’t seem like a lot but it’s enough for a hippo to easily ignore a family of lions tearing into it

[fading flume]

Never said he could. Only said they could flip one over

[fading flume]

Brutes aren’t lions? They’re far more powerful. Take the brute from HI that took out a 6 inch thick metal door with its bare hands

[tight badge]

In how many punches

[fading flume]

https://youtube.com/shorts/BagxE7JA9Fw?si=BNsACtF9T-f8-bEq

it ripped the door open and manhandled it? Have you not played the Halo games

[tight badge]

I have played every main halo game currently playing infinite

[fading flume]

I see. Well, the brute did that, and much more can be found in the books.

[tight badge]

Besides if a brute gets close, hippos have two twenty inch fangs paired with the strongest bite force of any land animal it can and will punch a hole in a brute big enough to stick your arm through

[modest marsh]

From Wikipedia:

The mean adult weight is around 1,480 kg (3,260 lb) for bulls and 1,365 kg (3,009 lb) for cows. Exceptionally large males have been recorded reaching 2,660 kg (5,860 lb).

[fading flume]

Brute’s aren’t dumb enough to just allow themselves to be bitten by a hippo. It’s gonna be far harder for the hippo to do anything

[fading flume]

I was also confused by the 10,000 pound number, but I assumed it was an incredibly obese zoo animal

https://imgur.com/DfBbpyn

here’s a brute throwing a hammer with enough for to send a Warthog, which weighs more than a Hippo, off the ground and into a ditch

[modest marsh]

I checked before answering since body mass is the most important factor in a straight brawl

But as I said, functionally Brutes need to be much stronger pound for pound because in their natural habitat they weigh vastly more than they do in earth normal gravity

[fading flume]

As I suspected, the 10,000 pound individual was indeed captive and more than likely obese. Size is important, but an obese Hippo with zero fighting capacity (since it’s been captive its entire life) isn’t going to do anything.

[fading flume]

Really now?

[modest marsh]

Doisac’s gravitational constant is 2G

So one pound on Earth is 2 pounds on Doisac

2.1 actually

[fading flume]

Then biologically they’d have to be designed to be capable of holding a body twice the size if they’re on Earth, no? If a brute weighs 1,000 pounds on Doisac, then it be 500 on Earth. However, it wouldn’t be changing weight at all, it’s just how gravity works

[modest marsh]

Weight is a function of gravitational force, my point is that the brute anatomy is evolved to support much more weight despite being lower mass

Ergo, more strength per pound

You can’t just look at a hippo’s mass and use that to determine it’s stronger

[fading flume]

Very true

Not to mention other factors like intelligence and agility/reflexes

[modest marsh]

I think you’re underselling the anatomical weapons that Brutes have at their disposal as well for that matter

They have very large jaws with long jutting fangs as well as clawed fingers

They could very easily jab into the eye of the hippo rending it blind

As far as relative physicality, reminder that Hunters are relatively common enemies that can similarly be beaten with melee attacks by Spartans and Brutes alike, and they weigh over 10,000lbs

Not easily mind you, but even if we were presupposing that hippos were these truck sized goliaths, we already have precedent for something bigger being felled

[fading flume]

I remember somewhere that Tartarus was believed to have the physical strength to tear said 10,000 pounds of Hunter in half.

[empty bloom]

I feel like, due to being gestalts, Hunter bodies part easier than meat, bones, and sinew.

[modest marsh]

Id argue the fact that the lack of vital organs means that trying to kill a hunter with punches is a lot harder to accomplish

[empty bloom]

Killing with punches, sure. Ripping in half, though, sounds a lot easier, considering the worms still, y'know. Worm.

[modest marsh]

more specifically they are meter long eels renowned for their ability to eat and digest considerable amounts of structural metal

its kind of like calling the xenomorph a big cockroach or a deathclaw an iguana

[empty bloom]

Come to think of it, have they ever described how the Hunter Worms 'bind' together to make meat-people?

Like, it's been at least implied they're sticking around a 'skeleton' of metal, but

[wispy pewter]

Moto Moto vs Atriox who wins

[junior rivet]

When keyes was taken away by the flood to the proto-gravemind was he infected first?

[still heron]

Some hotheads would take the challenge. And no gameplay doesn't count.

[sleek vigil]

1. Writing mistake
2. A change

If that's all Halo 4 'implies'...

[proud stratus]

in reply to your question yes, and no. captain keys was taken hostage by the flood but was not infected until he came in contact with proto-Gravemind, this is because the flood knew of keys' intelligence and thought of him to be a good host or base for the Gravemind to begin with. As stated in the book "The Flood".

[junior rivet]

I remember seeing something similar happen to someone on the halo Mona Lisa animation.

[latent apex]

Has anyone seen a spartan use or has anyone used the OSTEO armor in any of the games? I know there's much cooler and better armors but like... It's a unique set

[stoic hamlet]

No, no spartan has been shown using them.

Though IMC security personnel made use of them in the Saturn Devouring His Son short story.

[vagrant ocean]

Although not a Spartan, the miners seen in H5 on Meridian apparently use a combat variant of the OSTEO rig, but to my knowledge no Spartans have been seen using the rig.

I do however find it interesting that other MJÖLNIR-adjacent armor platforms have been adapted for use with the armor system and that some Spartan personnel have used them, such as Tom-B292 using the GEN2 Shinobi armor suite.

Probably just a case of “waste not want not”

Other such examples being Nightfall and ORCUS.

[latent apex]

The gen2 Shinobi kinda looks like the scout, I need to get back into the halo games 😭 I love the universe alot

[vagrant ocean]

As sad as the microtrasaction situation is with Infinite, it’s done wonders for lore and fan content.

[vagrant ocean]

Yo, EC, you work on the wiki right?

[stoic hamlet]

Technically no, but I know the admins and etc on a pretty good level, though, anyone can contribute to Halopedia.

what do you need?

[vagrant ocean]

Oh I was just curious about something. I’m on the page for powered exoskeletons and under the vehicles/mechs section there’s a red link referring to an unidentified powered exoskeleton and I was just curious what it was mentioned in.

[stoic hamlet]

Can you send me the page?

Ah, I think I know what it is. @vagrant ocean

Pretty sure it’s referring to the one from Halsey’s journal.

[vagrant ocean]

https://www.halopedia.org/Powered_exoskeleton

Sorry for the late response, looking for a cheap laptop for my kid.

[stoic hamlet]

All good.

Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s referring to the Halsey’s journal sketches.

[vagrant ocean]

No, that’s the HRUNTING Mark I I’m pretty sure,

[lapis steeple]

Why didn't the UNSC just spam the tactic from reach but remove the remote detatonor like make a cannon that shoots a magnetized slip space drive then it goes off and ahnilates covvie ship

[vagrant ocean]

Slipspace drives are extremely expensive.

That’s literally the main reason.

And they needed as many drives as possible to evacuate planets.

[lapis steeple]

I mean they outfitted them on their frigates and they pumped those out like nobody's business

[carmine sleet]

Frigates aren't cheap, in part because of those drives

[vagrant ocean]

^

The Shaw-Fujikawa drive is literally the most expensive part of a UNSC vessel.

Also the war was basically over by then, humanity was prepping to become the Quarians from Mass Effect.

[carmine sleet]

Just because they're able to outfit allot of ships with them, it doesn't mean they could try and make a "Slipspace cannon" and use that to fight the Covenant, especially when the Covenant never gave humanity a chance to evac

[carmine sleet]

Oh how different it could've been if humanity was forced to live as nomads amongst the stars

[vagrant ocean]

That was the plan with Infinity.

[carmine sleet]

Aye

[stoic hamlet]

They also removed a lot of Slipspace drives from some shops near the end of the war, or omitted them entirely.

[vagrant ocean]

Most CMA vessels that were absorbed into the UNSCDF had their drives stripped for parts.

Same with a good chunk of Diligence-class destroyers.

[unique rune]

Frigates can be used to blow things up multiple times. Sacrificing a slipspace drive to do an UPPER CUT makes them single use. The math should be pretty easy to math from there.

[coarse hamlet]

beyond the expense reasons:

1. you would need to design a slipspace engine that can withstand the force of being accelerated to absurd speeds without breaking or prematurely activating.
2. you would need to hit your target. this sounds easy with that fast of a projectile but space is really big and who knows what effects point defence would have. could end up with a molten slag of expensive machinery pancaking off the shields even if you do hit

[carmine sleet]

Being ever so slightly off could risk missing by a wide margin too when it comes to flinging stuff at high speed in space

[vagrant ocean]

That’s why UNSC vessels need firing solutions before firing. Even modern naval vessels need them.

And with the nature of kinetic weapons in space, the minute that drive hits someone, somewhere, somewhen, it’s gonna be a rough time.

[empty bloom]

The problem with fiction economics is that they are a black box.

We know;

• Frigates are expensive.
• They were cutting corners on producing more warships, which were swiftly becoming more rare the less breathing room the UNSC had
• Every UEG capital ship we know of needed a slipspace drive, likely of a specific make and model, even civilian vessels
• Slipspace drives are expensive.
• Slipspace drives are very complex and likely slow to make
• Every single factor of the above is relative to the economy of Halo's UEG
• The concept of weaponized slipspace was literally only tested once, on one of the largest ships the Covenant had, and it was an act of desperation
• Any other variant of weaponizing slipspace requires the expenditure of dozens of slipspace drives, including many custom-built models specifically built for testing the concept

All of the above combined makes weaponizing slipspace on at scale deeply unfeasible.

[vagrant ocean]

Even if they wanted to engage in post-war tests, the components being used for said tests would be better off used for new vessels and repairs to existing ones. Why expend a dozen Slipspace drives on a maybe when they could be put in warships or colony ships.

[slim salmon]

Does Master Chief store his ammo via video game logic or is there a canon reason?

Yes, he has an ammo belt but there's no way he can fit like 2 thirds of a rocket launcher in said ammo belt.

[empty bloom]

Spartans canonically use a mixture of their suit's external magnetic storage as well as pouches and combat webbing to store their ammo and weapons.

They do not store it inside the actual armor aside from one possibly apocryphal depiction in Halo Legends.

[velvet raven]

Why does Cortana never use the words "Alert!" Or "Warning:" after the first game?

I'm guessing it has something to do with Halo CE having a lot of Marathon carryover

[empty bloom]

Just didn't feel like saying them.

[wispy pewter]

Steve can carry 2300 enchanted gold apples which is a third of a billion kilos

[slim salmon]

Video Game logic.

Halo is realistic.

Kinda

[empty bloom]

Not really, but it likes to pretend it is.

[obsidian thistle]

While I am betting its cut in the Omnibus. Fun reminder that Halo: The Flood had Chief carry M41 SPNKR ammo around on the Truth and Reconciliation...

||... then never use them. Cause the mission just like ya know LACKS any other UNSC weapons barring what ya spawn with.||

Dietz I love yer style at times but what was that all about lol

[wispy pewter]

Aliens

[unique rune]

comfort rockets, obviously

[vagrant ocean]

Well, if we compare the M41 to the Panzerfaust 3 which fills a similar combat role, we can possible measure the weight of the ammunition and see if they could’ve potentially been used as bludgeons. The ammunition of the Panzerfaust 3 makes up between 85.230 and 87.473% of the entire weapon system’s mass. The M41 platform has a weight 23.8 pounds, which if we use this very very very messy math would make the ammunition alone would weigh between 20.284 and 20.818 pounds, perfect for either cracking open skulls or as an improvised explosive charge. I understand the math may be fuzzy but these could be reasons.

[slim salmon]

So Master Chief is capable of carrying half a SPNKR Launcher?

Now we need a canon reason for ammo storage.

[stoic hamlet]

In Oblivion Fred notes he’s down to “single tubes” after a few firefights.

Notably, SPNKR ammunition is carried on the small of the back.

[dusk jetty]

Gameplay doesn’t translate to lore all the time

Nor does it need to

[runic bluff]

Halo just shadow dropping Legends on YouTube
https://youtu.be/xOREgPpqR7o

[stoic hamlet]

Not a shadow drop, technically.

They mentioned they were going to do this in the last canon fodder, I believe.

[obsidian thistle]

They do need to fix the Spartan tags tho

Roland is meant to be B210 and Jonah is meant to be B283

As per this og sauce from many a years ago

And a handful others since

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

[obsidian thistle]

I'm fine with Retcons but that one would just be bizarre

[stoic hamlet]

I hope we get the tags of the other two headhunters, ahd find out who the “dozen plus Spartan III fireteams” in the second wave are, as well.

I have my theories, now, though.

[strange pumice]

Always wanted to ask
Do numbers for 2 and 3 Spartan generation picked randomly, or how are they picking?
Hard to form the question tho

[stoic hamlet]

It’s based on when they were screened.

Though for the III’s it seems to be assigned when they arrived at onyx.

[obsidian thistle]

Actually... I dont think we have exactly how SIIs got their numbers. But it certainly was set before they were kidnapped.

Which probably sucks to some writers at HS that they couldn't have their "You are number 117" moment. Cause it was probably discussed at some point lol

(Would have went hard otherwise )

[stoic hamlet]

It’d feel kinda cheesy, IMO

[obsidian thistle]

Hey I like a lil cheese now and then

As long as it isnt overdone

[minor sky]

https://www.youtube.com/live/OrvqXfY_7tU?si=j3TmwlrWWi5lXy0G

Listening to the Halo 5 panel atm and it is very interesting hearing about the development of the game straight from the Developers' mouths

I do think they had the right idea from the early concept stage of "Chief stepping away/ going to figure himself out"

Letting that idea sit with me kind of makes me wish the game didn't go the "traitor" route and instead had Chiefs going AWOL be a little bit more gradual

Less "I don't like it" and more "Chief's pelican lost contact, and now he is showing up places doing stuff we don't fully understand"

[minor sky]

Maybe this is just bias but when Tim Longo talks about wanting to shift from the Didact to "a more understandable villain" is a valid point, but I also think that thing needed to come after we spent a lot more time in the Post War universe

[obsidian thistle]

A common sentiment I seen is not that people disagree with a buncha these stories (though yes those peeps do exist) but that post-war should have lasted longer.

I always been a strong supporter of moving past 2610 in the Halo universe

The year wall that Halo has never surpassed

We've been stuck at 2610 since 2007 lol

The monent we pass 2610 is when we truly hit a universe with no baggage barring what came before

[unborn patrol]

Whats taken us that far? Reach ending?

Or wait since 07

Dunno then

[obsidian thistle]

Halo 3's Believe - A buncha interviews and the Diorama take place around that.
Halo: Reach Legendary Edition- The entire package takes place in January 2610.

(This weirdly means the Halos are no threat as they cant fire)

If they do it retcons those.

[unborn patrol]

I dont think anyones expecting them to go off at this point. Their most enthusiastic user base was demolished

The real danger now are some of the very powerful factions and what they could do to humanity

But we should survive to some extent if they dont retcon that stuff

[vagrant ocean]

Wait, can the Ark be used as a portal to the other installations?

If so, the joint UNSC-SoS task force could’ve finally secured the Ark and use it as a way to easily locate the other installations.

By then

[proud stratus]

Yes that's correct

[warm ridge]

Yes, the Ark has portals to all sorts of locations throughout the Milky Way. Many of which were used by the Librarians Keyships.

[warm ridge]

@stoic hamlet @vagrant ocean
Not sure if either of you care but I'm going to be uploading every single voice line text from Halo 5's Voices of War REQ pack of Buck to his quote page

[still heron]

Need to clear something: Section Zero for ONI is like in layman's terms their own Internal Affairs?

[modest marsh]

Nominally yes but I think that’s a generous interpretation of what they actually do

[warm ridge]

Anyone here able to listen to any Buck voicelines to figure out what he's saying?

there's one I can't figure out what he could be saying

[sleek vigil]

What I'd say the 'ideal' way to execute the The Created story differently, something beyond a videogame narrative. The idea is that The Created (or a similar narrative) could've been explored as a more philosophical-driven dilemma set during the time of ancient humans.

[empty bloom]

The hell do the ancient humans have to do with the Created beyond Smart AI creation being a primitive form of composition?

[sleek vigil]

That was not nescessarily the point. The idea is that an 'AI rebellion' would've been 10x more interesting if it was done that way. I understand Tim Lango wanted a 'personal' story, but I think my idea has potential.

[empty bloom]

Done what way? You didn't really state what the way was.

[sleek vigil]

Likely as a book, set in the past.

I know, it's not Halo 5, but Halo 5 isn't beloved for its story anyway.

[carmine sleet]

So you want the Created to be a faction ancient humanity dealt with?

Because I'm gonna be honest, that's just sounding like "I don't like this thing" and trying to explain away a way to never think about it

[empty bloom]

This still doesn't answer the question.

Like, are you saying you want the Created to be an ancient threat? Are you saying you want them to be done in a way where they are?

Because the concept now is philosophically driven, just not ancient, and obviously shunted into the background

[fair hazel]

I still want to see the created attempting to do good and hold their side of their twisted bargain

[empty bloom]

That was always the appealing part to me. The Created having a robot war goal that wasn't "Kill all life" but instead "Save them from themselves and use our control to exploit natural resources as we see fit"

[fair hazel]

The Balaho stuff goes with it a bit but, we got to see more

[unborn patrol]

its a very unique angle to take and its got a lot of potential

but lets see if they even take it anywhere in the future

[dry cedar]

For me, the Xalanyn/Endless are an insanely interesting question mark.

They survived what was supposed to be a total purge of life. And they were a sapient species not indexed.

And it does appear, from the Cylixes, that the Gasgira are Xalanyn, based on the basic profile.

The only thing I can think is they have a nervous system totally unique to them - one the Array couldn't fry with the pulse.

And I'm thinking either Ephsu was the Xalanyn homeworld or the planet Cortana jumped it to is ["...and Installation 07 was moved from its firing position to the Ephsu system so that it was in close proximity to the Xalanyn's homeworld"].

.....among many others.

[dry cedar]

Like where are Eta, Theta and Iota Halos - we jump from Zeta (07) to Kappa (06)

Juridical Archive (Shield 10021), Invicta, and Thema Opson (Galatian Capital) - all of which are part of the Overwatch Network - seem like they would have all fired up again once Cortana went live with the Guardians ["Peacemaker constructs such as Guardian Custodes were able to connect to the overwatch network, using it to reflexively counter many potential threats to the Ecumene long before they came to the attention of Warrior-Servant commanders"], especially since Trevelyan/Onyx/006 is one of them.

And the Kerrec Irruption (Natal Anomaly) - an irruption being 'a sudden, violent, or forcible entry' - and the IX-KA anomaly (Opson burn) are noted as being "crystallized shards of time" (as is Etran Harborage)

The Warfleet map - despite its locational inaccuracies - raises a lot of big questions

Also, the supposed Shield World of Cloister, assuming the broader definition of "a place or state of seclusion", could in theory be the remains of Maethrillian, especially if things were corrupted over time, like how Abaddon became "Organon".

The thing being cloistered being Abaddon, and since Maethrillian can close up a la the Citadel, it could superficially resemble a planet/moon.

[dry cedar]

Oh, and what was Laszlo Sorvad's "latchkey discovery"?
And did Sara make it off-world?!

[carmine sleet]

Sorvad's "latchkey" was data which was used to find the first Halo by Cortana when she sent the Autumn into slipspace while it fled Reach in conjunction with data from Sigma Octanus IV

[lapis steeple]

Do we have an Air Force command and Army command

[modest marsh]

Both would be organized under Unicom

[lapis steeple]

Bit unfair the Navy,marines and army get their own command to an extent and the air Force has to settle for unified ground command XD

[modest marsh]

Marines, army, and Air Force comprise Unicom

[obsidian thistle]

The Air Force seemingly do have their own rank structure

[stoic hamlet]

Marines and Navy are under NAVCOM.

[sleek vigil]

Yes. You are correct. It is story of the past, less-action driven, and does not deal with whatever happens following Halo 5. Indeed it is not Halo 5's story, but my suggestion is exactly that - to still execute the idea of AI revolution, but in a different context that I believe has more potential.

[sonic lagoon]

If halo 5 gets remade like campaign evolved, they should add levels between halo 5 and halo infinite.

Show the end of the created conflict.

[empty bloom]

You still have yet to point out what shunting ancient humanity in has to do with this.

[warm ridge]

Gasgira never appear on any of the cylixes.

Cortana never jumped to any planet.

Ephsu I is specifically stated to be the Endless home world, which Installation 07 was teleported to by the Forerunners a Millenia ago after the Halo rings had already fired. Installation 07 stayed in this position in orbit around Ephsu until the modern day in the Halo universe.

Which, Installation 07 teleported away from after doing an emergency slipspace when Cortana exploded an entire section of the ring to prevent the Banished from gaining control.

[warm ridge]

Cloister is specifically stated to be a distinct shield world of it's own. It is not the remains of Maethrillian, not even close. Not really sure where you got this theory from or who told it to you, but this has been hard confirmed for years now.

Most of Maethrillian remained intact afaik, just heavily damaged. It's described in enough detail to give you a good idea on what happened to it.

[fading basalt]

The lore is interesting

[lapis steeple]

Indubitably

[warm ridge]

Something people don't seem to quite understand about Maethrillian is that it's bigger then Earth on an orders of magnitude larger.

Earth has a diameter of 7,918 miles.
Maethrillian has a diameter of 62,000 miles. @dry cedar

[warm ridge]

I've published all the Arena voices lines (except for his Infection ones). @vagrant ocean @stoic hamlet @orchid kettle
Am currently doing all of that now. He has so much Warzone dialogue it's insane.

for Buck

almost half way through

[modest marsh]

The encyclopedia seemingly retconned this from the Field Manual’s interpretation is what I’m realizing

OSFM implies that marines fall under UNICOM, but the encyclopedia indicates they are NAVCOM

[sonic lagoon]

Is Mjolnir resistant to pools of acid if a Spartans swims in it?

[obsidian thistle]

Probably depends on the variant

I'd say no however

[sonic lagoon]

Can the Spartans swim in boiling water and survive?

[modest marsh]

Acids vary in terms of what they corrode and at what rate

Mjolnir’s exact composition varies and is a bit of a black box but there are anti-corrosive elements that would presumably slow most acids

We know Chief’s Mark VI had a phosphated layer

[modest marsh]

Like without their armor?

If it’s with their armor, I don’t think a meager 100C environment, air or water, would cause immediate harm, but the suit would obviously begin to struggle to keep itself cool if it had to sustain heightened temperatures for extended periods

Tom and Lucy narrowly survived a nearby explosion that vaporized a good chunk of the surrounding area by diving into a river, which would’ve obviously exposed them to temperatures approaching boiling, and they were only wearing SPI

[sleek vigil]

Nope. I will not. 😊

[empty bloom]

Okay, so you don't have a good plan for that then.

[minor sky]

Like I've said before- there are plenty of interesting and downright excellent ideas to explore with The Created
They just jumped the gun way too soon/introduced them a little sloppily

The "save them from themselves angle" would be a lot more compelling if we, y'know, got to spend some time seeing the state of the post war Galaxy

I think with more time you could've set up Sloan or somebody like him to act as the figure head for The Created in Cortana's place if you wanted to totally ditch the evil Cortana plot thread (which I will admit to still being very split on)

[lapis steeple]

How did Forge survive a gut punch from Ripa morramee which shouldve went right through him under normal conditions

[modest marsh]

The simple answer is that Ripa was not in any haste to kill Forge, because he also could’ve killed him immediately after but chose to monologue instead

[empty bloom]

Cracked ribs.

[heavy remnant]

So does the timeline for SPI go SPI -> Mirage Gen 1 -> Mirage IIC?

[wispy pewter]

He’s him

[obsidian thistle]

They are two parallel projects

SPI still exists

But Mirage is the marrage of both SPI and Mjolnir

😛 You never saw my typo

[heavy remnant]

Oh, the wiki says it was "derived" from SPI. Took that as it was the spiritual successor

thanks for the info

[lapis steeple]

Why are ranks in halo so SCUFFED like buck during odst is a staff Sergeant despite that being used for platoons,sgt. Forge being responsible for all the marines on the Spirit of Fire etc etc

[stoic hamlet]

Buck is a gunnery sergeant.

Forge is explicitly explained as a special case.

[lapis steeple]

My bad on that one but gunnery sergeants are not leading squads regardless

[stoic hamlet]

Alpha-9 overall just kind of break the mold.

[vagrant ocean]

They were a very unorthodox unit and that’s why they were used.

[unique rune]

Halo is also broadly made and consumed by people with a layman's knowledge of militaries and their structures
this kind of thing happens with pretty much any media that touches on some kind of niche specialist field where if you're actually invested in said field you'll see things that just sound like absolute gibberish but to someone on the outside it just has to sound good enough

it can be smoothed out with research or having a consultant but sometimes that's just not practical for whatever reason

[stoic hamlet]

I still appreciate Imperial Armour.

It’s not perfect, but it’s a sight better than anything Halo’s done.

[empty bloom]

Sadge

Because I want a UNSC Armor type book

[stoic hamlet]

Even with games, EndWar actually feels better at that stuff than Halo Wars, if we’re comparing strategy games.

Or Resistance compared to Halo’s FPS offerings.

[orchid kettle]

Sometimes writers flip flop on how irregular ODST units are actually meant to be compared to conventional Marines

the latter of which clearly just being lifted from the US military

I think narratively speaking as well, its a bit much to ask the audience to care about a core cast of 13 characters, so even "squads" like Alpha-Nine or Sunray get shortened to five dudes for simplicity's sake

though Alpha-Nine if I recall is just called a fireteam in the encyclopedia, so take that how you will

I know Outcast had a squad of 11 troopers or something but even then you only really had two named and defined characters

[empty bloom]

guh

[orchid kettle]

I think the reason the 4-5 fireteam is so popular in Halo is because its a reasonable number of characters to keep track of while still being some manner of military unit

[empty bloom]

Still only really makes sense for Spartans, IMO, but that's mostly because of how scarce they are.

[orchid kettle]

i guess we have headhunters too but we haven't seen that many dedicated duos it feels like

in terms of like, story leads

[empty bloom]

Noble's still the largest nonfluid Spartan 'fireteam' IIRC

[orchid kettle]

ODST units being irregular I think is mainly just the result of being elevated to "protagonist" status

or at least, "occasional protagonist"

if they remained secondary and tetriary characters I think the writers would make more of an effort to have them appear as authentic as possible

Personally I wish we would have just established a clearer delineation between the faceless "shock troops" who die by the hundreds every novel, and the seemingly far more important protag squads like Alpha-Nine

Like, imply there's a limited number of these teams and "Alpha-Nine" is some super special designation that explains why Buck keeps it even after being Spartanized

if it effectively just means "Alpha Company, Ninth Fireteam" or whatever, its even sillier that Buck and friends are still called that

[orchid kettle]

The lil lore drop about Bullfrogs told us about some subgroup within the ODSTs called the "Special Purpose Forces" and I kinda wish we used that name to refer to the protag squads

It'd retroactively fit with that old bungie dot net article too about how ODSTs came from elsewhere in the UNSC special forces, if you figure that the article was talking about ODST SPF

The article never made much sense even back when it released since you were immediately introduced to Mickey, who has no history in the special forces aside from being an ODST

Didn't make sense for Gage either, with his short story also being released in 2009 along with the article and ODST the game

But if you rework the article's idea into SPF requiring history in the ODSTs or other special forces before applying, I think it works out. The only real downside I think is that you take the supposedly elite helljumpers who are the best of the best of the best, and say "Well, actually, only some of them are the best".

But I think you kinda have to do that the second you say there's more than one division of ODSTs in the entire UNSC. Hell, if you take In Amber Clad's ODST to Marine ratio into account, 1/5th of the Marine complement on any warship could be ODST. And one in five is hardly exclusive.

This does play into what I've always said, where maybe with the benefit of hindsight, it would have worked better if ODSTs were just what we called UNSC Marines to begin with. And dropping from orbit was just a fact of military life in Halo.

and the SPF can still be the cool guys in special black armor

And if you really needed hapless normies for Chief to be burdened with, you could have planetary defense forces and CMA marines. Maybe portray the UNSC as being the more elite of all of humanity's militaries, establish that Earth vs Colony tension early on by having UNSC-aligned characters and CMA/PDF ones butting heads.

Like in Dirt where the CAA/CMA is looked down upon by UNSC veterans and treated as lil more than a burden

[modest marsh]

tbf, the reach data drops do imply there's a tiering system

Looking at his CSV en total, my first thought is that this is fabricated. His service record reads like a career composite of three full Tier-1/L5 ODST squads, back to back for two and a half decades.

[modest marsh]

they kind of already do this? But i get your point, there's no real contrast being made

and you don't wanna make the unsc seem too uniquely effective because that just comes across as glazing

as of right now the biggest difference the unsc has over other military and paramilitary forces is their industrial capacity and technological edge rather than being outwardly more well trained man-to-man

its also unclear what the manpower distribution is between groups over what time frame, because one would think the unsc also has more people overall than other human militaries

what's left for the CMA, rebels, civil law enforcement, and private security?

it would be interesting if the unsc was actually smaller in terms of overall personell even if they eclipse other factions in terms of spending allocation and equipment modernization

obviously they have the best navy without question, both in terms of number of warships and their individual technological capabilities

i think things could get a little more muddled when it comes to ground assets though

[orchid kettle]

Well during the HCW-era material, you don't really have anything but the UNSC and maybe some rebels. Unless you wanna count the Harvest militia as "PDF", its otherwise a concept largely contained to guidebooks and whatnot.

Reach and Palace Hotel briefly have this Marine-Army dichotomy I suppose

I've just always really enjoyed the UNSC vs CMA dynamic in Dirt, and I think its a shame that the CMA basically ceases to be a relevant player after 2525.

I like humanity being fragmented and fighting among themselves even during the HCW in theory

I like office politics and characters backstabbing each other to get ahead even if they're "all on the same side" on paper

All things considered I don't think the show was necessarily wrong for making the UNSC a bit more morally gray from early on

You can't have a show that's purely alien killin' action after all, so most scenes were always just going to be characters talking about how they feel and what they should do

Maybe the problem was how the show only really had the UNSC, or random colonists who obviously could not meaningful resist the Covenant

but when you make the UNSC so awful, it effects your interest in seeing them triumph over the aliens. It can feel like the show is pushing you to think that in this setting, humanity might not even be worth saving in the first place.

Maybe having the CMA and PDFs around would counteract that, maybe having scrappy farm boys helps offset the Earth supremacists and authoritarians.

Or maybe Im just recreating the same problem Kilo-5 introduced, where ONI is understood to be the source of all of the UNSC's evil doing, and the other UNSC characters are innocent little beans who never knew

where Im leaving one military organization to bear the weight of all of the UEG's sins so the others can remain clean

[lapis steeple]

Also more love for the UNSCA Airborne

[lapis steeple]

And also Ranger units

[empty bloom]

The UNSC Air Force is currently drowning at the bottom of the ocean

[minor sky]

I haven't gotten the chance to read them myself but everytime I see the Kilo-Five trilogy get mentioned I can't tell if it is great or a total mess

[lapis steeple]

Actually I meant the Unsc Army airborne but I'm curious as to why you say that

[unique rune]

because they’re the Air Force
they don’t have boats and planes tend to sink in water

[warm ridge]

SPI -> Mirage -> Mirage IIC Gen 3

SPI is an armor program that still exist, which is normal.
Mirage Gen 1 is the MJOLNIR variant of SPI.
Mirage IIC Gen 3 is a further refinement of Mirage Gen 1 MJOLNIR.

[warm ridge]

It is not a spiritual successor, it is simply another armor variant that exist on MJOLNIR. SPI by itself is still around.

Like how Mark IV is still around despite the "successors" being Mark V, Mark VI and Mark VII existing.

You aren't just going to see a type of armor variant get completely replaced in the Halo universe, this usually doesn't happen.

[obsidian thistle]

Mirage IIC isnt said to be GEN3 :p

A misconception with the core system honestly

[heavy remnant]

Funnily enough this confusion all started because people kept referring to Mega Construx “Mirage” armor as “Mirage/SPI” so it made me look into what their differences were—I don’t play Infinite and thought SPI was added initially, not “Mirage.”

[lapis steeple]

Any reason for no Army on earth except for Bungie shenanigans

[sonic lagoon]

Were humans intended to be Forerunners originally?

[obsidian thistle]

During CE and Halo 2s development the idea was likely tossed around enough for it to reach storyboards but was cut.

During the development of Halo 3. The idea was so not solid that devs at Bungie thought yes and no, with no one at Microsoft or Bungie putting down the hammer on it. Leading to stuff saying yes and no in the same game. (And IRIS)

Leading to 343i having to figure stuff out AND go their own route with what Bungie left. (Whether you agree or disagree with the route is your own call)

So the answer is... not gonna be appealing but... yes/no

Hope that answers that @sonic lagoon

So yes this means Marty and a few others are right Humans did equal Forerunners as they were in the work they did.

But other devs went the other route of Humans not equaling Forerunners as they werent in the work they did.

To reiterate the ones at fault were the "companies" Bungie and Microsoft back in 2007 not pushing a direction. And honestly... it wasnt important whatever direction they went back then so I cant really fault Bungie or Microsoft.

The important part was making a game people enjoyed and well... I'd say they all succeeded!

[sonic lagoon]

It is completely understandable that it was retconned just a tad bit. I quite like the human-forerunner war. Lots of franchises have had historical retcons where the past was misrepresented and corrected. Doctor Who did it was the daleks, Star Wars did it with the republic/empire, alien did it with the engineers, all done by the original creators, so people giving 343 crap are just pulling hairs as many science fiction writers have retconned their own to the same extent.

[obsidian thistle]

Hey I think 343i went the best direction in a franchise point of view

[sonic lagoon]

It makes it more interesting having more pretext wars than just having humans be forerunners. Plus Chief has the Geas of Bornstellar so it still makes sense in the same way really.

[stiff salmon]

So... quick lore question (I hope)

Covenant obviously view the Forerunners as gods.... and all their constructs as holy relics.

So why do they condone shooting sentinels? They are forerunner made, sure they're just dumb AI. But they belong to their gods.

Shouldn't they avoid shooting them? Or try and make peace with them?

. . .as I write this I remember in Halo Wars the first mission with the Grizzlies they are trying to blow up an entire map room.

So I guess the question turns into, what gives? Why are they destroying forerunner stuff?

[heavy remnant]

What rank are white grunts, ultra?

[vagrant ocean]

Yes.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m sure self defense is a good reason to shoot sentinels. And the tech within them can still be salvaged.

[sonic lagoon]

Likely so they don’t die by getting shot by sentinels.

Also how many times have animals attacked militaries in Halo?

[vagrant ocean]

Reach and Hunters in the Dark are ones I remember the most vividly.

[empty bloom]

Ultra in Halo CE to Reach, Ultra in 5 (In Warzone Firefight), Bouncer (Halo Infinite)

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, hunters in the dark had a killer tree.

[vagrant ocean]

And the blind wolves.

[stoic hamlet]

Divine Wind had sone evil tentacle monster in a swamp.

[sonic lagoon]

In The Return an octopus like creature kills an elite in the water. Possibly akin to a Sarlacc Pit.

[sonic lagoon]

There are also these in divine wind. https://www.halopedia.org/Kralidonk Swarm of bugs that kill brutes in seconds. Kinda reminds me of that swarm in gears of war 1 when a locust drone gets caught by those flying things.

Possibly arachnid amphibians.

[sonic lagoon]

These creatures from Halo 4 killed human researchers. https://www.halopedia.org/Eiyaa-Mahtuhaa

[still heron]

I feel like that kind of connection would've backfired especially since we had to relearn everything. Pretty foolish especially given the threat of the Flood.

[minor sky]

https://youtu.be/vtkYIwMXG5U?

Excited to see this in my feed

[minor sky]

Chief saying ||"I like Steve" in regards to the Weapon's name was so great||

I love when Halo gives little winks and nods to the people behind the scenes

[versed salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/big-steve-sigma-steve-minecraft-chad-steve-gif-9873965683892181962

[minor sky]

Looking forward to Edge of Dawn

I think Kelly Gay is one hell of a writer

Need to read more of her stuff

The book is gonna be an interesting balancing act of "making an entertaining story" and "not over doing so much of what Halo 7 needs to"

[sonic lagoon]

What exactly was the skeleton doing at the bottom of the arch in the alternate ending of Halo 2? Was it there as a template to replicate humanity? What exactly disguises it from regular human bones? Why did spark call them creators and humans as children? At this time was there really a difference, like size?

[wispy pewter]

No way the new book is gonna be Infinite 2.0

All the characters on the infinity not gonna make it

[vagrant ocean]

The book is quite literally just Halo Infinite: First Strike.

It’s a bridge, not a true sequel.

[minor sky]

I hope they are setting up Chief linking back up with Lasky/Palmer in Halo 7

And maybe Blue Team

Honestly, I would love for Blue Team to get some more time to shine in a game

My hope for the next game is that we get a proper war between the UNSC and Banished on the Ring. With their leader dead, I think it would a perfect space to have both sides deadlocked in battle. Fighting over whatever secerts that will grant them victory

That and we get different biomes/sections of the ring to explore

[vagrant ocean]

Well, their leader isn’t dead, Atriox is MIA, and Severan has operational control.

[minor sky]

You know what I mean. Chief took out Escharum; there is a power vacuum from the fallout

Per Edge of Dawn

[wanton tinsel]

I mean, various members of the covenant have more and less respect for forerunner artifacts than others (tartarus vs arby when it comes to 343GS, for example). I don’t think its ever explained why they’re chill with shooting sentinels, they might just see them as a test left behind by the forerunners.

[carmine sleet]

Should be noted the power vacuum is localised to Zeta Halo as the wider Banished forces do not know what happened on Zeta in regards to Atriox disappearing and Escharum dying. I imagine because they don't know what happened post Cortana ejecting a portion of the ring and it slipspacing away, Severan has likely taken it as an opportunity to increase his influence

[minor sky]

To be clear, I am specifically reffering to Zeta Halo and the forces isolated on the ring

[carmine sleet]

Ah fair

[minor sky]

Ik the wider Banished forces have their own stuff going on

I am still half-convinced that Infinity got pulled into that time-stasis thing Chief and Joyeuse went through

And is gonna Deus-Ex Machina itself or smth

Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think it has crashed on the ring. When the PoA landed in HCE it shook the entire ring, I'd imagine people would know if it landed on Zeta Halo

The fact that 343i/HS went out of their way not say that it crashed also gives credibility to it

[warm ridge]

finished @vagrant ocean
https://www.halopedia.org/Edward_Buck/Quotes

[vagrant ocean]

Yay

Love me some Nathan Fillion

[warm ridge]

it's a TON of lines, especially for Warzone

I need to try and organize them

[wanton tinsel]

Was LNOS the biggest covenant ship ever encountered by the UNSC? If so, i guess it couldve just been written off as a sensor anomaly when it was slipping past orbital defenses

[vagrant ocean]

Yes, still is the largest Covie vessel encountered.

[empty bloom]

So would the Needler be considered a PDW or specialist weapon?

I consider the Plasma Rifle a PDW, or SMG, type weapon, so I kinda want to consider the Needler the same.

[stoic hamlet]

The biggest finished ship? Yes.

But UNSC forces encountered an in-progress/under construction CSO in Silent Storm

[sonic lagoon]

Also in the original Halo 2 ending did the receding take place entirely on earth for every species?

[carmine sleet]

I don't think the cut Halo 2 ending delved into details like that

But I doubt the idea back then was that every species was placed on Earth, considering the fact that Earth is a planet filled with humans in Halo

[sonic lagoon]

What was the idea for how the receding was done? Were they just the ships like in Halo Legends and portals to their home planets?

Did halo also ever have a Tower of Babel equivalent after the receding?

[vagrant ocean]

I’d consider it to be a specialist PDW, kinda like how some militaries use both the MP5 and P90/MP7.

[wispy pewter]

They are not if you seen chapter 1

Again. This universe going back 180

Everything chief did in Infinite seems to be for nothing based on Chapter 1

FOBs being retaken, Banished regrouping

Also it’s not a leak they released chapter 1 in the Halo waypoint

[minor sky]

How are they not? Maybe I misheard something? I recall there being a line about "Chief hoping Laskey, Halsey, and Palmer were still out there"

That does mean they will show back up, but that also doesn't mean they won't

[wispy pewter]

Yeah but then right after that the author basically says the book will focus on him completing his mission

[minor sky]

Sure

[wispy pewter]

So I guess it’s Kelly saying they won’t be appearing in the book

But they are somewhere out there

Which is…

[minor sky]

Hence why I said "Halo 7"

[wispy pewter]

so meh

[minor sky]

And not "Edge of Dawn"

[minor sky]

I mean.... what else did you think would happen?

[wispy pewter]

The return of Majestic, Palmer, Lasky, Blue Team

[minor sky]

I doubt Majestic will return but those other three still can. It isn't like they can't work with how Edge Of Dawn is going

But also I'd expect that to happen in a game and not a book

Unless they have learned nothing and plan on doing what they have done with Halo 4, Spartan Ops, Halo 5, and to a lesser extent Halo Wars 2

[minor sky]

On that note, it has been close to a decade since Halo Wars 2 and we still don't have a proper resolution to that story

It's almost like if Halo 2 (somehow) just sold "ok" and instead of Halo 3 we got the occasional short story or cameo

[modest marsh]

My main disagreement there is it’s classified in universe as a “guided munitions launcher”, because its firing explosive homing projectiles which means that it necessarily can’t be used the same way as PDW doctrinally

It’s ideal case use would be for assaulting fortified positions, particularly enclosed spaces, where you can fire blindly into a room full of potential targets

[vagrant ocean]

But you also have to remember that Covie doctrine isn’t really the same.

[modest marsh]

Yeah, but they certainly do breach fortified positions a lot more often than the reverse

The standard tactic used by Covenant combatants armed with Type-33 GMLs is to fire several bursts into a confined area before entering; the projectiles ricochet when they hit rigid surfaces at oblique angles and retain sufficient velocity to make dodging them difficult at best.

Though not generally considered effective enough to be a combat multiplier, the wounds this weapon inflicts are horrific. In this aspect it is been reasoned by some to be the closest weapon in the Covenant arsenal to the flamethrower of ancient times.

[sonic lagoon]

What other biblical and abrahamic events are paralleled in Halo other than the flood?

[sonic lagoon]

Also before 2007, what was the reason the flood appeared in the Galaxy? Was it just an act of God before precursors were put in the story?

[vagrant ocean]

Basically extragalactic fungus that made zombies.

[sonic lagoon]

Natural or made by something?

[unique rune]

unclear
no one at Bungie ever really went into it
wasn’t really important at the time

[sonic lagoon]

Did Human-Forerunner hybrids exist?

[vagrant ocean]

However I don’t think hybrids would be naturally possible for one major reason.

Even if we come from a base genetic stock of sorts, as is implied in some sources, too much time has passed for there to be enough genetic compatibility to allow for hybridization.

Meanwhile, there really isn’t any reason why Homo sapiens and Homo longi could have a hybrid child (we actually have evidence they did) or Homo habilis and Homo floresiensis.

[obsidian thistle]

In theory. I'd say its possible pending the core stock shared between both species. Should it be done however... I doubt it.

[obsidian thistle]

Seeing as 12 people DMed me on this tied to this server in the 5 mins it was an issue lol.

We at Halopedia tried to update something and it nuked a few pages. This issue has been remedied and no longer exists! Your support and care makes me love y'all.

(Still 5 mins. You lot are fast. I am impressed)

[vagrant ocean]

Huh

[obsidian thistle]

Ok so the issue was we were investigating pushing a new system across the wiki to help better y'all

New "Namespaces" (in a to long didnt read. Imagine micro wikis) such as "Halo 3:", "Halo 4:", so on so on.

This... accidently nuked pages like "Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn" and "Halo 3: ODST"

We reverted the change fast (5 mins this issue lasted)

But not fast enough for a whole load of y'all to notice

[obsidian thistle]

(As a side note: Guess its fun to say Halopedia staff are going to Halo Fest in force aha)

[sonic lagoon]

Specifically before the firing of the Halos.

[vagrant ocean]

My point still stands. The time that passed since the initial seeding of the galaxy by the Precursors by the time the Human-Forerunner war is so great that the amount of actual genetic similarity wouldn’t be much greater than there is between us and a shrew.

So unless medical intervention occurred, hybridization would be unlikely.

[sonic lagoon]

Oh ok, I just ask since a lot of games have genetic hybrids of animals far removed from each other. For example in Fallout 3’s Mothership Zeta DLC there are Human-Zetan hybrids called Abominations, the Zetans are not even related to humans yet they can still be made into hybrids.

[vagrant ocean]

Well those hybrids were artificially made, grown.

[sonic lagoon]

Oh ok, so what if the forerunners did that with human and forerunner dna? 🧬

[vagrant ocean]

Some might have, but I doubt it’d be mainstream, especially as the rivalry between the species began to grow.

[unique rune]

not really sure what the “what if” here is even supposed to amount to

yeah what if they did
who knows
it’s not like we’d have anything to really meaningfully speculate off of

[empty bloom]

So far I haven't seen any really noteworthy canon tidbits in the Flashpoint boxes

Except for some new ODST ones

@orchid kettle might find this funny

So apparently a new role ODSTs are known for is 'firebreaks'

Which use shotguns, demo charges, and flamethrowers.

They also apparently use demolition charges as melee weapons.

[orchid kettle]

Ye and the SPF bois are specifically the marksmen for some reason

which i dunno points to some special ODST marksman unit or if they just didn't have any other cool name to call them

[lapis steeple]

Why didn't ONI have a remote "Wipe all data" button for when bases get compromised

[lapis steeple]

Since we have two missions having to do it manually

Bit weird we didn't prepare

[empty bloom]

That is the button for that.

It takes time to zeroize especially if you use RAID.

[lapis steeple]

I meant why can't we just have some spook in a far away land get news that a bad is compromised flick a red button and have that be the end of it and thus waste the Covvies time and not risk ground ops

[empty bloom]

That isn't how data security works.

Like, that's just straight up not how it works in any environment, including reality

Because it's actively security averse to have the remote capability to do that in a military, due to the potential exploits.

Zeroizing is done almost entirely on-site with a hardware solution as the potential to exploit a remote capability to do so is too great.

[frigid heart]

“The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand”

[vagrant ocean]

Sergeant Charles Zim, Mobile Infantry.

[empty bloom]

A fun thing to say but also not entirely true.

I could absolutely push a button with a stump.

[stoic hamlet]

Or just nudge it.

See, the real line should have been:

“an enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hands… elbows knees and toes (knees and toes)!”

[sonic lagoon]

Plus humans could just take dna from the Didact and make hybrids.

[vagrant ocean]

A headshot counts as disabling a hand.

[modest marsh]

Private actually, he had to be demoted to be reassigned to infantry

[empty bloom]

NGL, them issuing live ammo for a capture the flag training exercise is still one of the most insane things about the movie

[sonic lagoon]

Anyone here wanna set up a general discussion for this week? I can line up some topics in that audio chat.

[wispy pewter]

ok

[sonic lagoon]

Hooray. Would Saturday at 6 pm eastern time work for you?

[warm ridge]

man halo edge of dawn has quite a bit of lore relevations