lore-and-universe

[stoic hamlet]

And the ‘22 encyclopedia implies the MA37/40 is a different type of rifle compared to the MA3/4/5.

[ebon jasper]

There's an MA3 and 4?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

Also an MA2

And thus an MA1

[ebon jasper]

Yeah...

Looking at the wiki

Ngl I wish the difference was more along the lines of.

M16, m4 vs hk416.

Regarding the ma37

Call it the m37.

And the infinite version the m37a1.

Army designations are easier than idk. Uh. Making a different naming scheme for a manufacturer

[empty bloom]

REAL

[stoic hamlet]

I mean, there’s nothing to say it isn’t that.

[ebon jasper]

Ma37.

Missrai armoury 37

I don't care if it has a h

And there is no other meaning for MA

[stoic hamlet]

I mean in terms of how they’re different.

[ebon jasper]

It's also nonsense that the br is made my misiraih armoury and called.

The br55/75.

[stoic hamlet]

The 416 isn’t the same rifle as the AR15.

[ebon jasper]

90%.

Works slightly differently inside.

[stoic hamlet]

Hence my point.

[ebon jasper]

Either way reach sorta presents the ma37 as basically the prototype to the modern halo ar. From ce.

Also something that always bothered me abt the halo rifles. Specifically the ma series. The magazines being angled up at the back

Like... why?

I can't even blame this one 343.

It's a bungie fowl

Foul?

Faul?

[stoic hamlet]

Only in Bungie’s vidocs

But the actual model of the MA37 gas decals that state “MA5C.mk4”

[ebon jasper]

This is a freaking headache. Couldn't we have just had a consistent design aesthetic?

[fair hazel]

yes there is any one of infinite's weaknesses is it's small sandbox, but that's gameplay. but like others said, his original question, its just gameplay. I'm sure there were

also the swords of sanghelios warthog

[ebon jasper]

Lore wise. There is a belt fed lmg in a rifle configuration.

It was in halo 2.

[ebon jasper]

"Nobody gets excited over a water truck with a water tank trailer."
-templin institute.

I do. And I wanna see all the unsc logi vehicles.

[ebon jasper]

I'm the I like trains type of kid. Yk?

[obsidian thistle]

As much as I want it to be otherwise. HS kinda opt to ignore the MA5C decal

No lore has continued that idea

Its like how many Bungie era pistols have the wrong M6 letter attached

Only one that REALLY escapes that is the M6G2

https://www.halopedia.org/M6G2_magnum

Which had this
https://web.archive.org/web/20210124000000/http://halo.bungie.net/projects/halo3/content.aspx?link=h3pistol

(The page link embed)

For those that cant see it

The modification package to the latest revision of the M6 pistol series: The M6G PDWS.

Meaning the weapon very well could be a M6C modified into a M6G

(Do I think Bungie thought into that. No. But did it work out. Yes)

[lapis steeple]

The Longsword is the best fighter in fiction and I will defend this to my very grave

[warm lion]

What are the goals of The Banished besides "Power" and "Never Bow To Anyone Again"? Is it taking over the galaxy?

[obsidian thistle]

In Halo Wars 2 it was to create Halo rings

[warm lion]

And whoever controls the Halo Rings, controls the Galaxy

[lapis steeple]

Are there any other Unsc special Forces other than Spartans and Odsts

[vagrant ocean]

So far it appears most fighters are operated by the Navy, with the only fighters used exclusively by the Air Force being the F-23 Falcata and FSS-1000 Sabre. Craft like the Longsword, Baselard, and Broadsword are used by both

[vagrant ocean]

ODSTs pull from all UNSC and UEG special forces units, so yes.

[lapis steeple]

I thought it was chiefly the marines

[vagrant ocean]

No, they just get transfers to the marines as part of ODST training. “A strictly volunteer force, the Orbital Drop Shock Troopers are recruited from special operations units in the UNSC Marine Corps, UNSC Army, UNSC Air Force, and UNSC Navy; they are also drawn from the special operations groups of all UEG member nations' standing militaries.”

[lapis steeple]

Cool

Are any of them named

Or is it just a Bungie didn't think that far moment

[vagrant ocean]

No but it can be assumed that the names are not too dissimilar from the US military.

[vagrant ocean]

Bungie never thought far. They were basically incapable of it.

[lapis steeple]

Also how does that elite tank that plasma grenade in day at the beach

[lapis steeple]

Since those things were hotter than the sun

Grenade

My bad

[vagrant ocean]

? I don’t remember an elite tanking a plasma grenade. But shielding could be the explanation

[lapis steeple]

https://youtu.be/GYDklklJYog?si=D9Ad8h-WD288AHDF

[lapis steeple]

This is the Cinematic

[lapis steeple]

@vagrant ocean

[vagrant ocean]

Probably shielding.

[versed salmon]

Power for the sake of power. Then increase said power through any means

[vagrant ocean]

Makes sense given how primitive Jiralhanae are.

[versed salmon]

It’s more their mindset/culture, they’re very prone to aggression

[modest marsh]

He’s only caught in the blast, it didnt adhere to him directly

[carmine sleet]

To add to what's already been said, they also want to avenge the loss of Doisac at the hands of the Created, as well as make a new home for the Brutes

Like, the latter is a very understandable goal to have but when your faction was already trying to find a way to hold a gun to the head of the galaxy for the sake of power before the loss of the Brute homeworld... Not so great to have the Banished specifically leading that effort

[wanton tinsel]

Can an engineer be logic plague’d, and can the logic plague be modified/weaponized by non-flood species to jailbreak their opponents’ ai? If they got a transcript of the logic plague in action, for example.

[unique rune]

It probably wouldn’t be impossible to alter Huragok behavior via logic plague but I think you’ve got the wrong impression of what it really is

The logic plague isn’t any sort of fixed program or script where the Flood hacks into an AI and rewrites it to serve them or anything of that sort

It changes from subject to subject and is basically a sort of psychological manipulation

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah.

It’s a cognitohazard.

[unique rune]

A transcript of the arguments and techniques used might be useful to understand it but it’s not going to be something anyone could just make into a plug-and-play AI countermeasure

[wanton tinsel]

Yeah thats kinda what i meant, like obviously the mendicant bias logic plague wouldnt have messed up the didact’s mind but the arguments and techniques could be salvageable unless they truly were completely unique from target to target (which is possible)

[vagrant ocean]

It’s basically a form of psychological torture, which is never uniform in application.

[unique rune]

There might be patterns of behavior but given the wide range of targets I doubt there'd be anything that can be turned into a reusable program or something like that

[sonic lagoon]

Maybe the Geas was susceptible to the logic plaque.

[unique rune]

not sure how the Flood would gaslight the concept of mystical subconscious commands so I'm going to go with no

[cosmic sentinel]

Flood go brrr

[bitter venture]

I just had a thought so back with the season one trailer for Halo infinite multiplayer we saw 4 Spartan IV’s drop into London. It’s never said who they are but I just had a thoughts
(so I may be a little off with the comic law. I’m going purely off the books here.)
The only Spartan IVs at that I’m aware of that would’ve been active at this time would have been Evie, Saskia Doreen and Victor from HALO BATTLE BORN

[empty bloom]

GEN3 Mark VII=/=Spartan IVs

[bitter venture]

I just chucked the armour up to advertisement

[sonic lagoon]

Well they are commands, sorta like a computer? Am I correct about that or wrong?

[unique rune]

I mean
not really?

the exact nature of geas isn't really clear other than it being some kind of higher-level imprint

I don't think it's something the Flood could have an argument with or manipulate or torture into making it work for them

[sonic lagoon]

Are imprints like records, dvds, and hard drives?

[unique rune]

...no?

I don't really know what to tell you, you can read up on everything we officially know about geas on Halopedia. My point is that I don't think it's the sort of thing that logic plague would meaningfully apply to. Logic plague is used to manipulate intelligent constructs and occasionally biological organisms with the same capacity for thought. A geas is neither of those.

You could maybe manipulate a Forerunner to imprint a geas or genesong that would ultimately serve the Flood's needs, but I doubt you could directly "convince" one that's already been put into place to do that.

[vagrant ocean]

I don’t think they were IVs. They could be IIs considering a few were on Earth or escaped Reach with a gap between deployments. I have a feeling Maria could’ve been sent, Omega and Silver could’ve been deployed there, hell, Team BLACK had already returned from Line Installation 1-4 by then, having completed their mission in August.

Naomi was also available.

Or it could be a few of the candidates whose whereabouts have been unknown since 2517.

It could also possibly be IIIs that were sent on emergency redeployment to Earth.

[wispy pewter]

or they had a third party studio doing the cutscene with given assets

[vagrant ocean]

Well, it’s part of the lore that Spartan Laurette Agryna was saved by a squad of Spartans during the London theater of the Battle of Earth, which then inspired her to join Spartan Ops.

[wispy pewter]

But battle of earth happened on 2552 right? the timeline is a bit confusing since I assumed the Gen 3 Mjolnir was something introduced in Infinite

also if that was 8 years ago in timeline, she became a Spartan relatively quick

[vagrant ocean]

Obvi the armor shown isn’t canon, like the Mk VI MOD shown in H4’s prologue, but Agryna was saved by a team of Spartans, most likely IIs or IIIs, or perhaps the kids from Battleborn.

[wispy pewter]

that makes sense

she also looked like a teen there. 8 years apart and she's already a Spartan

unless I am terribly wrong

[vagrant ocean]

I still think it might’ve been a team of IIs, given how many escaped Harvest and how many could be near Earth.

[vagrant ocean]

Late teens most likely. She could’ve then joined the service, performed exceptionally well during training fast tracking her candidacy for the Spartan Branch, and after a couple years she could become Spartan Commander of the AJJAMS. This tracks given how Palmer was made Spartan Commander of the Infinity’s complement at the age of 30, which is a rank equivalent to Colonel.

Keep in mind most colonels, at least in the US (which the UNSCDF’s command structure is based on) is about 45 years old.

[wispy pewter]

I can see her being commander because all the experienced ones were either MIA or KIA

[vagrant ocean]

I still lean towards the Spartans in question being IIs, with one being Maria-062 (who was a reservist at the time of the Battle of Earth). It could also be Team BLACK.

[wispy pewter]

Ah the ones that got killed off panel by the didact

Sad

[vagrant ocean]

Agryna was in the same class as Hieu Dinh, and he was recruited in late 2553.

[carmine sleet]

I'd say Black is unlikely, my bet is either Maria and members of Omega or Silver or it was a team of IIIs

[vagrant ocean]

Maria was def one of them given that she was already on Earth, so I wouldn’t be shocked if she was deployed alongside Omega who is specifically trained for shock operations or Silver.

I only mentioned BLACK because they were a team of 4 and they were already in UNSC space by the time the battle began.

I mean, Omega is a QRF, can’t be quicker than a hop skip and a jump from Seongnam.

[carmine sleet]

Fair. I imagine Black Team would've been deployed on something a bit more in the direct interests of ONI, given Black Team were reporting to ONI directly

[vagrant ocean]

Perhaps asset denial somewhere else on Earth.

[carmine sleet]

Or asset retrieval

[vagrant ocean]

Cuz if I was CINCONI I’d call all Spartan assets at my disposal back to Earth.

[carmine sleet]

I wouldn't put it past some ONI higherup to claim they are too vital to be killed and demanding Black Team is sent to pick them up

[vagrant ocean]

The assistant to Parangosky’s poodle-chihuahua mix demands immediate extraction by Owl.

[carmine sleet]

Aye, something ridiculous like that

[vagrant ocean]

I hope we get more stories with Maria, she seems like a character with a ton of potential, especially since the only other “retired” Spartan we know about is dead.

[carmine sleet]

I just wish she wasn't confirmed to be fighting on Reach. Like, her original appearance gives the impression she's been retired from active duty for quite some time

[vagrant ocean]

She could’ve been retired for a bit and was recalled to service for RED FLAG, given the gravity of the situation.

That’s what I think at least.

I’m sure dating is rough when you’re 7 feet tall and made of titanium.

[carmine sleet]

Considering some people I've encountered in my life, they'd love a 7ft tall woman who could literally crush their skull with ease

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, I have a crush on Linda.

[wispy pewter]

redhead supremecy

[carmine sleet]

No, I get it. Badass sniper who has already died once

[vagrant ocean]

Dummy thicc. Also I decided, as a joke, to do a BMI test on Linda, and it labeled her as morbidly obese, which proves BMI is BS.

[carmine sleet]

BMI isn't even used for the reason it was invented for originally anyway. Anyone using it is using it wrong

[vagrant ocean]

I also just love Linda’s armor,

[wispy pewter]

Noble team had that drip

[lapis steeple]

Is Grass lands any good

[storm glacier]

do we ever know what heppened to hector nyeto?

[vagrant ocean]

Probably dead,

[dense falcon]

Question for those who read Legacy of Onyx:
What did you imagine everything outside of Paxopolis to be like? I honestly could only imagine a Minecraft superflat world.

[wispy pewter]

the kilo 5 trilogy is very good

[versed salmon]

when does Edge of Dawn release?

[clear hawk]

December 16th

[sonic lagoon]

Did all Armigers have the Promethean aesthetic or did some look different?

[ebon jasper]

What was it originally used for?

[versed salmon]

thats how i see it too, but with more lush grass

[fair hazel]

A green, very verdant world, mountains in the distances, trees and pines and rivers, bright and beautiful

[warm ridge]

what is the "promethean" aesthetic?

All Armigers look like Armigers, yes. The orange color I believe is Promethean related.

Blue, is generally builder related. Or at least as close to Builder lore when it comes to how the games potray them.

[sonic lagoon]

The imprint skeleton look.

Only knights are former liver beings but the soldiers, guardians, and watchers have those features as well without being former biological beings.

[warm ridge]

Yea, Armigers have looked that way since the beginning. They were created by the Warrior Servants actually.

[sonic lagoon]

Oh ok. I know that warrior servants have 2 different designs, the original halo 4 designs and the new infinite era design that looks like the legends design.

[warm ridge]

what are you talking about? 2 different designs? huh?

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, look at this character. https://www.halopedia.org/Glory-of-a-Far-Dawn

This character is a warrior servant.

[carmine sleet]

That's not a character in Infinite

[sonic lagoon]

Not in infinite but from the post infinite era.

Specially in a book.

[empty bloom]

Warrior Servant=/=Promethean Soldier/Armiger.

One is a biological humanoid the other is a humanoid AI.

[carmine sleet]

Fractures (The collection of short stories) and Cryptum predate Infinite

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, but specially I’m referring to the new design for the warrior servants in Glory of a Far Dawn, different from the Halo 4 terminal designs. So do the Armigers vary in the same way?

[sonic lagoon]

I mean the new image on the wiki.

Her armor design on Halopedia.

[warm ridge]

Don't think you're aware but the Warrior Servants have a plethora of designs. Far Dawn is just another one.

We have -

• Ur-Didact
• Iso-Didact (the Ur-Didact used to look identical to his armor)
• Bitterness-of-the-Vanquished
• Strategos
• Glory-of-a-Far-Dawn

Each of these people have different designs, but are all Warrior Servants. Not all of these people are strictly from the "Halo 4 Era" either.

Bitterness & the Ur-Didact's form is unique in the fact that neither quite matches the uniform that the standard Warrior Servant is seen using (aka what we see in Halo 4's terminals).

Far Dawn still wears a suit that is similar to the standard Warrior Servant, and actually looks relatively close to the Ur-Didact's old uniform (what the Iso-Didact wore at the end of the war).

[warm ridge]

Armigers do vary in design, yes. All of which primarily come from Halo 5.

[strange pumice]

Is there any information about which food Spartans usually eat?
I'd like to read if there will be some information

[stoic hamlet]

They have special diets, but we don’t know the exact details.

Basically mostly MRE’s/IMP’s, but tailored to their diets.

[strange pumice]

That's wild actually
We know how Spartans are built, but don't know what they eat
But anyway, thanks

[warm ridge]

Mostly MRE's. It's mentioned across a plethora of Halo lore, but we've never really seen Spartans specifically eating them beyond some references.

I would imagine the food Spartans do eat is generally extremely calorie dense considering the calories they must burn on a day to day basis. They can operate without food for weeks though, assuming MJOLNIR itself somehow keeps them fed.

I'd also take it into account that Spartans just eat normal military food to.

[empty bloom]

I imagine the 'special diet' is mostly avoiding anything they can't process while their completely reconstructed digestive system settles.

Considering they get literally gutted like a chicken.

[crimson oak]

The Gravemind is basically the Julius Caesar to the flood right?

[empty bloom]

No.

Like, not even close. There is no historical analogue for what the Gravemind is.

[stoic hamlet]

Even in Rubicon Protocol they’re says to have to eat special rations, ahd this is Team Shadow, the oldest IV’s we know of.

[crimson oak]

But functionally speaking, the Gravemind is a general to generals

[stoic hamlet]

That’s not how the flood works.

It’s a hive mind.

[empty bloom]

Good for the goose/gander and whatever. Considering calorie intake and such, I can't imagine there's a point where eating the same rations wouldn't be helpful.

Like, nutritional specs, from the augs we know they have, would likely matter less than making sure good flow was optimized. If you catch my drift.

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm

[crimson oak]

Yeah in terms of individuality, but functionally, there are multiple flood forms with distinct roles

[empty bloom]

That isn't the same thing.

[crimson oak]

Explain?

[empty bloom]

the classification is more an ad-hoc attempt to classify something that inherently kind of doesn't have classification.

[crimson oak]

But aren’t the different forms defined from an out of universe perspective

[empty bloom]

The flood does what works, and the codification of keymind/combat form et cetera stuff is defined solely from an outside, not inside, perspective. It's why making comparisons to normal roles or individuals is tangential at best.

[warm ridge]

In Empty Throne, James Solomon had stored a ton of Alcohol. Chloe also assumingly ate some of the food he kept for himself, like porridge & water.
She was also seen eating a MRE sandwich & other stuff, definitely given to her by James.
@stoic hamlet @empty bloom

[empty bloom]

It's like trying to claim the dog-thing from the Thing is an analogue for Balto, but Thingified.

Like, doesn't really work, the flood is the flood.

I feel like the Gravemind itself is more a face for 'convenience', an analogue 'face' for interacting with nonflood than anything resembling a specific 'voice'. Like a hurricane that wants to tell you why it is coming to kill Florida as an envoy of the Earth's weather-more a filter than a real 'mind' per say.

[warm ridge]

The Gravemind to the Flood is the brain. Every form the Flood has is directly controlled by the Gravemind. Every form, cell, body, whatever = Gravemind.
Multiple bodies, same mind, same voice.

It's a Hive Mind.

There aren't any known distinct voices or "minds" within the Flood outside of the central Gravemind itself, except for maybe the Primordial.
Unless you count the Zombie-like stage the Flood is in before a Proto-Gravemind is formed, but as soon as it gets big enough, the Gravemind takes control.

[empty bloom]

Something something ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[sonic lagoon]

The snake in the abrahamic religions.

What type of cybernetics did Bobby Kodiak have?

[unique rune]

you've really gotta do something about this habit of asking questions that are easily answerable by just checking Halopedia

[warm ridge]

not even Halopedia has all the answers to stuff, quite a big chunk of it needs updating actually.

[unique rune]

most of it is reasonably up to date and if it's not specified the answer tends to be "we don't know" anyway

[bronze prawn]

shouldn't what remains of the human population be extremely xenophobic

after 30 years of getting exterminated planet after planet by a covenant of alien races

[unique rune]

not if they want to keep living

humanity barely survived the Covenant and picking a fight with what’s left of them because they wanna be space racist is a really bad idea

[empty bloom]

No.

It's both not really accurate to how real humans operate, how Halo's humanity operates, or how Halo's themes work. People who want it to be that way are not aware of Halo's themes, nor the other two factors.

The anti-alien human faction, Sapien Sunrise, shares an acronym with real-life hate group lingo for a reason.

[still heron]

Wish ONI got that message instead of letting paranoia breed more issues to them. Then again we wouldn't get any post Halo 3 games in the first place.

[still heron]

Not surprised at this. How much time needed to update every detail? Quite a while.

[wispy pewter]

that should have happened or maybe it did we dont know

[bronze prawn]

Maybe I just read too much 40k

[wispy pewter]

Like this was actually shown in ST Enterprise in the xindi season. like a few million floridians died to bug aliens and suddenly earth is xenophobic

[warm ridge]

quite a lot are actually, especially people inside of ONI.
Like purposely continuing the Arbiter's (Thel's) civil war just so they wouldn't be able to regroup faster then humanity could.

The S-III's also are for the most part.

[unique rune]

Floridians being xenophobic who would’ve thought

[stoic hamlet]

Tbh, I always felt that was too on the nose.

Unlike the group their initials ape, they have pretty understandable worries and grievances, especially when viewed through the lens of the universe as a person on the ground would see it.

They’re not exactly “right”, but I can understand where they’re coming from.

But yeah, humanity’s in no place to carry on the war, anyways.

[empty bloom]

Still find it funny how Thel has his head on straighter about how to be a good person than most "Halo needs to be 40K types".

[wispy pewter]

Oni was that close to genociding sanghelios tho

[empty bloom]

Like, y'all who think that way are doing worse than a literal former genocide-committing alien warlord.

Do better.

[stoic hamlet]

I do also think it can be reductive to group everyone into that camp, though.

[still heron]

Ouch. Florida wins the award on weird scale.

[wispy pewter]

One cannot just move forward with a genocide

[empty bloom]

If humanity didn't we'd have been extinct several dozen times over.

Half the reason our species hit a genetic bottleneck millennia ago is partially attributed to intercenine warfare.

[stoic hamlet]

Because aside from Sapien Sunrise (who are treated as literally insane) there’s basically no real, nuanced look at the whole thing.

Maybe that’s for the best, considering the climate ww live in, but I can understand those wanting a more nuanced, cynical take.

That doesn’t always mean “lol, uno reverse card” either.

[wispy pewter]

Mind you the Chinese and Japanese still hate each other for that exact reason

[empty bloom]

They have a different cultural worldview than the UNSC.

[still heron]

Grey Team didn't know at the war was over at the time before they destroyed Glyke.

[wispy pewter]

They did not know the war ended I think

[empty bloom]

The UEG/UNSC are from a different time, comprised of different people, where national allegience is largely eschewed in favor of combined human perspective, and they are overall softer and more understanding of culture gaps.

[unique rune]

the Sangheili haven’t made a regular habit of downplaying what they did or pretended they didn’t do it so like

doesn’t really apply

[stoic hamlet]

Like, Hood’s bit about “someday, our children won’t look at each other with anger in their eyes” comes off as meaningless when we don’t actually see this much portrayed.

You also don’t need to go down the genocide route to acknowledge that the Covenant War was bad, m’kay?

You could look at how it completely shattered trade, isolated worlds, caused famine and civil unrest, etc.

You know, like wars on our own planet.

[wispy pewter]

Okay Earth should demand reperations from Thel

[empty bloom]

Also that. Thel is acutely aware of his role in atrocities and a large part of his tenure as Kaidon has been making amends and increasing human-sangheili relations.

[wispy pewter]

1 million Elite workers to rebuild earth

[empty bloom]

... His entire philosophy and behavior post-war literally directly nullifies this 'need'.

[stoic hamlet]

If anything, most of them are all like “and we’ll heckin’ do it again!” lol

But that makes sense.

[unique rune]

yeah we’ve very much seen attitudes come down to “it was a mistake” or “the only mistake was we didn’t finish the job” lol

[stoic hamlet]

They have a martial culture.

It’s just how it be.

[wispy pewter]

that makes it worse bruh. They dont even feel bad

[empty bloom]

Like, there are literally Swords of Sanghelios personnel who were a standard compliment aboard the Infinity. 24 of them. Which isn't many but that's 24 sangheili aboard a ship that, in normal circumstances for the UNSC, would've had none.

[empty bloom]

That is not what anyone said, where are you getting that from.

[stoic hamlet]

I do think we should actually see the effects of the war, on both sides.

Beyond just the fighting.

[empty bloom]

That would still require HS to not be mortified at the prospect of being political.

[stoic hamlet]

But I don’t necessarily trust HS (or the fanbase) to - yeah

[empty bloom]

Like, there's a reason Thel is more often than not the voice of reason for interstellar politics right now, and it's because the alien wanting a concert of worlds and maybe never getting it is not a direct statement in the way Hood, or the UEG's current President, pushing for the same would be.

[warm ridge]

if anything the true population of the Sangheili seems to be down played a lot

Don't think we've ever been told just how many of them actually exist

ONI seems to think they're the biggest threat of them all tho, worse then any other faction.

[empty bloom]

Maybe like, 10 years of writing ago.

[warm ridge]

current writing ago to

[wispy pewter]

they were scared if they united again they would be a bigger threat, which is a realistic thought

that is why ONI supplied Thel's enemies

[warm ridge]

but that would imply the Sangheili by itself are already a much bigger threat then we're lead to believe. Bigger then Humanity by far.

[wispy pewter]

they wanted to divide the sangheli

[warm ridge]

which, to be fair, does make plenty of sense. They likely have way more colonized worlds spread across hundreds of systems. In the billions per world.

[still heron]

I can understand why, but that ended up backfiring on them in the long term.

[wispy pewter]

I mean Thel didnt care humanity betrayed him for some reason

so nothing changed

Does he even have control of most sangheli? I dont even know

[stoic hamlet]

I mean, I think it’s also that looking at the war’s effects on civilian populations would detract from the “fun” of the series.

You can’t really have Master Chief gallivanting around the galaxy quipping one liners in the same world where you acknowledge that one in every three kids on Outer Colony [insert name here] died because their food supplies were diverted when trade broke down. Or that on Colony [Insert name here] the local UNSC garrison put down a riot by refugees who were being forced to live in squalor, and where UNSC commanders used a wartime rule to institute martial law. Or how, on Outer Colony [Insert name here] the population will basically die out because they sent so many sons and daughters away to fight that they can’t actually sustain the colony anymore.

[warm ridge]

No, he doesn't.

[warm ridge]

He's fully aware of how ONI behaves and it's shenanigans. He's had access to secret files ONI never wanted him to have for many, many years.

[wispy pewter]

ONI has a MOLE

[empty bloom]

He's also, y'know. Not stupid.

"Please, I'd have been dissappointed if you hadn't tried" type energy.

Because, as THEL KNOWS, intercenine undercover backstabby stuff is a factor of politics even on Sanghelios.

[bronze prawn]

they're into it

for thousands of years

[wispy pewter]

Need more elite/human friendships in Halo fr

[empty bloom]

He was a fleet master and a high ranking member of his Clan! Of all people he would know spy spy backstab games!

I don't see him being notably offended by ONI trying to undercut Sangheili dominance by forcing infighting because he'd be doing the exact same thing in their shoes.

And he's smart enough to know why they're doing it.

[still heron]

Look into the Anvil Initiative. They have good ones.

[empty bloom]

Some people like their funny silly goofy shooting game.

Some people want something entirely different.

Personally, I believe you can tell a lot about what kind of Halo fan someone is by how they engage with the story's elements post-343i. Because you have two drastically different perspectives and those splinter even harder the more you look.

[bronze prawn]

I mean what, you want a game as a civilian ?

as a common marine ?

as a politician

[still heron]

Trying to find that balance is very difficult.

[empty bloom]

No. I want a game that acknowledges the human cost of war.

[unique rune]

I really don’t envy anyone working on Halo because I’m pretty sure it’s stuck having identity crises as an IP on like a dozen different levels and on top of that you’re being squashed by Microsoft to not be too ambitious or else the shareholders piss themselves

[wispy pewter]

Yeah sure like every battlefield/call of duty ever. It would be cool

[still heron]

How so? You've got me curious.

[still heron]

There's a reason why I wouldn't mind buying them a drink. They'll need it.

[empty bloom]

A Spartan IV, for example, would have a notably enlightened perspective on the HCW compared to Chief, and even in the same squad you can have four entirely seperate perspectives of the UEG from cradle to MJOLNIR, Osiris being the most obvious and prominent example.

And no, I don't mean to say Chief doesn't have a perspective, but he's never known life as a civilian or even a common soldier.

[bronze prawn]

you want a game of 4 spartans IVs having PTSD

in its various forms and shapes

[empty bloom]

Not quite.

[wispy pewter]

having PTSD means taken off duty

[empty bloom]

Some people want God of War 3. I want God of War Ragnarok.

Does that adequately get the point across?

[bronze prawn]

I guess

you want a game of 4 spartans IVs reflecting on the aftermath of the war with interesting dynamics and good writing

[empty bloom]

Bungie Halo was more about the gameplay and how awesome everything was, with few discussions of stakes beyond vague insinuations in the games. The closest you get to discussing a human cost is Halo 3 ODST's backstory and the very limited and very strangled perspectives Reach grants you.

343i Halo is more about exploring the small human cost, the actual issues people encounter, sometimes emphasizing the small, personal struggles against an uncaring galaxy over bombastic violence and grandiose acts. The smaller elements of a whole. It's not perfect at it, but it's more personal.

[wispy pewter]

this doesnt have to be a game tbh. We already know cities were melted into glass and blown to pieces. A live action show would properly do that

[empty bloom]

More or less.

[still heron]

Sonic would be a more interesting example given that some want 2D Classic Platforming, Some want Adventure Formula, while others want the boost formula. But I'd rather not go there since there's quite the issue for fans to gripe about in any IP in general.

[empty bloom]

Not really.

It's big, dumb, and aggressive with some token attempts at drama versus a lot of character drama and narrative that reflects on the cost of what happened.

Like a retrospective of how much of a jerk you were when the crappy times were over, and how you handle that burden as an adult.

[wispy pewter]

Halo can never match the story based games like Clair Obscur because its an FPS game

[empty bloom]

That's an absurdly defeatist perspective.

There are plenty of first person shooters with deep narratives and impactful plots, so I'm not really sure where the insinuation it can't has legs. Maybe on another plane of reality.

[still heron]

I see. And switching from one to the other.... Yeah that didn't go well.

[bronze prawn]

you want black ops, the good ones, on halo

or more like TLOU

[empty bloom]

Black Ops storylines were never actually particularly good, but CoD has always been bombastic enough to trick people into thinking the plots were deeper than they really were.

Course, in hindsight, anything now is better than the trash of the newest game, so.

[still heron]

He's right. You have to branch out more.

[empty bloom]

It's a difference of degrees.

It's not unfeasible solely because "FPS bad", there's more to it.

[bronze prawn]

soemthing more like specs ops the line then

bf1 but just the good storys

[wispy pewter]

I mean im saying games that are primary a story game with either no multiplayer at all will have better stories because its not meant to be played as a competetive shooter

[wispy pewter]

BF1 was good and then BFV and 6 happened. They are so random

actually V has some good missions

[bronze prawn]

so "the last tiger" but in halo

that seems to fill all the blanks you have mentioned

[wispy pewter]

A scorpion mission in Halo imagine

but its a single crewed tank that makes no sense

we had an ODST game before bruh

and it was good

[empty bloom]

Sigh.

[stoic hamlet]

But completely out of sync with basically all other depictions of ODST’s.

[warm ridge]

• to not be to ambitious
  Uh..what? They're overly ambitious, the share holders included. Microsoft wants absolutely everything, but within a very short steady deadline.

It's the developers job (343 Industries, now Halo Studios) to meet those demands as close as possible, while also keeping certain expectations within reality & feasibility.

[still heron]

Fair point. ODST is more of a mystery game like how CE and 2 portrayed the Halo installations. Except it’s on the secrets hidden with New Mombasa. Though any other ideas for games like it (or more experimental entries) aren’t a good idea right now.

[modest marsh]

It’s not single crewed

[vagrant ocean]

The mission Exodus from Reach does a good job with that. It hits me in the chest every time.

[vagrant ocean]

Its crew is actually closer to the Renault FT, having a driver and gunner.

[empty bloom]

I actually think Exodus handled it very badly.

[lapis steeple]

Why so

The thing that did the best job of it was Sadies story(Halo 3 odsts) and sodaz's animations personally

[vagrant ocean]

It did help portray how hopeless the situation was. It obviously could’ve been done much better, but it still sends the message.

[empty bloom]

Combination of factors.

Marty's music choice is actually pretty consistently bad for the first half of the mission, not matching the tone of the environment (tactical sounding bopping music while you're walking around a field of civilian corpses).

The tone of the troops themselves are something of a mismatch-they sound less concerned than they should be about the civilians around them, having rather deadpan voice acting and low response (Halo 5 actually handled this one better going by Meridian defense troops and Osiris' dialogue, but has an orphaned drama moment when the orbital elevator breaks and kills the civilians you may have brought with you that drags it back down)

You have next to no interaction with the civilians, and in fact they actively hamper gameplay by killing you when you kill them. Their actual implementation is more lackluster than the factory workers in 3, who had dialogue and firearms, and would actively participate, as opposed to Reach, where they ran around nearly as quick as the player's run speed and had no response to Covenant beyond token dialogue.

Like, the overall idea is okay, it's the execution that's lacking.

I'm also somewhat convinced they used a nerve-stapled version of Moa AI for civilians in that level.

[carmine sleet]

I think having down time at the settlement helps Halo 5 as well, since you get to walk around and see the people of Meridian not actively fighting and trying to study the remains of the Prometheans or talking about whatever is on their minds

[empty bloom]

Reach dialogue in general kind of suffers from people just sounding profoundly bored.

I can forgive the 'The Covenant are on Reach' guy from the first level because him sounding exhausted and unemotional makes sense-he's been dodging the Covenant for a whole damn day, his brain's fried-but that's not an excuse for the rest of the game.

[empty bloom]

Halo 5's down time segments are outright one of the best story elements the franchise has ever had, because it forces you to actually stop and pay attention to your surroundings in a way shooting didn't.

Like, if I had to remake Halo 3, that's one of the first things I'd make a priority in adding in the full story rewrite.

[carmine sleet]

My only critique of them is there isn't really enough in them to justify making them entire levels on their own. I wish they'd been attached to levels preceding them. Like, I love the environments in all three (Even if two share the same camp) but I wish there was more stuff to do in them, especially the last one

Heck, one thing I wish Infinite did was make Outpost Tremonius something akin to the walk and talk missions after you've removed it from the Banished network

Let me walk around and speak with marine survivors we've saved and stuff

Maybe even throw in a few Banished deserters who don't agree with what Escharum is doing to the human prisoners

[lapis steeple]

In their defense, there is a sense of "We're screwed regardless." To reach so while they wouldn't be moping around all day they wouldn't they also wouldn't be too cheery however civilian interaction I cant defend even as a number 1 Reach glazer

[carmine sleet]

Or heck, a Swords of Sanghelios liaison who may have been attached to the Infinity when she was ambushed

[empty bloom]

It's not that they are 'mopey'. It's that they have nearly no actual emotion.

And since it's just dialogue, there isn't body language that can help carry that emotion.

[lapis steeple]

Again Sodaz really expanded on this

[empty bloom]

Sodaz isn't an official writer, as much as I deeply wish his Fallout animation would be officially endorsed by Bethesda.

[unique rune]

despite all its shortcomings I will say Exodus was the closest I got to feeling anything about Reach’s campaign

which I guess says more about the rest of the campaign’s qualities

[empty bloom]

I always felt like New Alexandria got the actual vibe better, even if it's laying on the bad situation a bit thick in ways that are more for show than actually containing substance.

[lapis steeple]

To be fairrrrrrrrrrrrrr,this is a point brought up in Kat and Carters second spat

[empty bloom]

I'm talking everybody, not just Noble.

Noble's issues narratively are a whole other issue that I also love to punch back down, but in Exodus specifically, it's the soldiers that are the issue.

[bronze prawn]

the NPCs

not grimdark enough

[unique rune]

in a game that’s supposedly about its setting as defenders of its writing will claim it’s always wild to me that the writing does so little to make you care about said setting

[empty bloom]

And another thing that really kinda sucks with Reach is that what it was trying to do was done better two years before by its competitor and partial themeing inspiration in terms of how Halo's aesthetic changed under Reach.

[unique rune]

none of the characters barring Jorge express any sort of sentiment towards or interest in Reach and he gets offed halfway through
and then they make everything look grey and brown like it’s emulating an a average day in London so it isn’t exactly making it look worth saving either

[bronze prawn]

I guess they dont really have anything or anyone else besides their duty at that point

so they commit themselves to it

but even that is done rather poorly

[empty bloom]

If I were to rewrite Reach's story Jorge would've honestly taken either Emile or Carter's place.

[lapis steeple]

Because I'm a Pedantic dude technically there's a few lines by troopers and Civvies IIRC about reach

[empty bloom]

In terms of how long he lasts.

[lapis steeple]

But I get your point

[empty bloom]

There are, they're just also very, very emotionless.

[lapis steeple]

If I was to rewrite reach I'd replace Jorge with Jun

[lapis steeple]

And give him just a few more bonding moments with the players

[lapis steeple]

Before we do so

[bronze prawn]

Halo always had some lacklusting moments in general

[lapis steeple]

Because one of the things I LOVE about reaches deaths apart from the poetry is how they do them right as you were getting to know them

[empty bloom]

"Hell we've all got orders to evacuate. But I guess some of us don't like to leave a job half finished."

Like, on a surface level? Okay line. Not horrible. But the cadence and dryness of the line, delivered by a soldier voice you've heard well over a dozen points in the story so far? And the unnecessarily quippy way of talking about the situation? It's frustrating to me, because the line gets the idea across; The soldiers left in New Alexandria, Spartans included, are supposed to be leaving civilians to die. But nobody even really sounds mad about it. The concept of what they are being told to do is so disgusting that someone should be utterly infuriated, but nobody is.

[bronze prawn]

the people they sent off planet are as likely to die as them anyways

[lapis steeple]

Kat stops snatching things from your hand and even starts complimenting you and you really want to get to know her

[lapis steeple]

Gets holed

[empty bloom]

It's played off almost as though it's a "Haha those silly brass, trying to tell us not to save people" instead of the very, very real anger people would have at being told to do that. Like, most Army troops in the UNSC are from the planet they are stationed on.

And what's more, the evac order part is never elaborated on. It's forgotten as quickly as it's brought up.

[lapis steeple]

Jorge the person you start the game with

[lapis steeple]

Is the first to die

[empty bloom]

I'm sorry, the whole "Noble's deaths are ironic" thing is such a load of horsecrap.

[lapis steeple]

Carter starts showing more personality than leader

Even compliments you

And dies

[empty bloom]

Or really any variation theorof.

[lapis steeple]

With his ship

[empty bloom]

Oh for god's sake.

[bronze prawn]

every couple of months someone on YT reminds you of that fact like if it hasnt been brough up for the last decade

WE GET IT, they die ironic glorious death

[unique rune]

I always thought the supposed irony was really uh

reaching

[bronze prawn]

say that again

[empty bloom]

It's not even accurate! It's just fans trying to push a pattern they made up in their head!

[lapis steeple]

No it's my point is that they die right as you get to know them

[empty bloom]

I mean I also don't think that's very accurate either, and if it is accurate it's still not very good from a writing perspective.

[lapis steeple]

That variation of glazing is for another day

Jun was poorly handled in my opinion

As the #1 Reach glazer

Even as funny as "Dieing is gay I'm out is."

It really feels like they just needed to waive him out the story

I didn't care for his dialogue

[empty bloom]

That's funny.

Jun's actually one of the three members of Noble I actually liked.

He's honest about what he is, why he does it, and how he thinks. He's frankly the most honest person of Noble, and the most objective. He's kind of dry because of it, but that's not necessarily bad.

[lapis steeple]

Also another problem is why TF is Buck here

[unique rune]

just as a callback to a line of dialogue from ODST

[bronze prawn]

indeed

[unique rune]

it’s a major nonissue

[bronze prawn]

I have only found him once in the 7 times I have played the mission

[unique rune]

especially compared to Reach’s big pile of issues

[bronze prawn]

weird huh

[carmine sleet]

If anything, it'd be more odd if there wasn't some sort of reference to Buck being on Reach

[bronze prawn]

How long have the 2 sides even been fighting over new alexandria

[carmine sleet]

And having him be a character you may meet during a mission works just fine for what it is

[empty bloom]

Like

Carter is a borderline stereotype formed off of a mixture of every typecast "Global War on Terror guy who thinks his command is kinda stupid", to the point of me being partially convinced the writing team sat in a room watching Generation Kill and became hellbent on making the dialogue of Brad Colbert boring. That I still like him is more because I like the archtype than anything else.

Kat is annoying because she has an unsatisfying death (No, suddenly having a character getting shot in the head like that is not 'drama' that works in a franchise like Halo), but also because her character 'arc' is mostly her doing schemey crap and not getting called on it-unless you're Halsey, of course. The only real moment of her being an actual 'person' to the PoV character occurs less than two minutes before she is offed.

Jun, I already mentioned.

Emile is the quintessential edgy jerk, who I've gone off on for being a useless character multiple times because he's just objectively a useless character who adds very little to the actual game.

Jorge is Jorge.

I don't even really talk about Carter much because complaining about him is like complaining about white bread toast with butter. It's basic and it works, and it's the most inoffensive type of food you can eat.

[bronze prawn]

Carter in the campaign ...

Essentialy just bosses us around

[empty bloom]

I mean he is literally your boss.

Hell, Six outranks 1/2 of Noble, as he's the third Officer and the other three are Warrants.

[lapis steeple]

1. To be fair A majority of Spartans act in the milk toast military dude personality(Linda,Naomi etc)
2. Fair but mostly because I hate this compulsive need to just beat up on Halsey for whatever reason I feel Kat was best when she was with Carter
3. Bwut cool skull mask jokes Aside as much as I love his character to the point I'm going to read fistful of arrows I do agree the game should've given him more to do BEFORE his dramatic sacrifice

[lapis steeple]

Jerome

[empty bloom]

I actively loathe the fan love of Jerome.

He's so damn boring.

[lapis steeple]

I may need to pull up a list

[empty bloom]

Even by the standards of Spartan IIs he is so intensely boring.

[lapis steeple]

But powerscaling

[empty bloom]

Powerscaling to what? A cardboard box?

[lapis steeple]

I meant everytime people pull up the fought the flood with a chair thing

[empty bloom]

Freaking Osiris outdoes Jerome's most impressive 'powerscaling feats' in their first damn cutscene in the franchise lmao

Congrats you can shoot brutes with a shotgun. Impressive. Wow. So cool.

That's totally not something literally any goober can do with a shotgun.

[lapis steeple]

Its mainly the fought the flood with a chair thing

[empty bloom]

Yeah that's funny but I'm still calling this dumb

[lapis steeple]

Seriously it's getting annoying

[carmine sleet]

Any Spartan can fight the Flood with a chair. It's called using an improvised weapon

[unique rune]

Adriana-111 turned some Grunts into paste with a Mongoose once, beating Flood up with a folding chair isn't anything special

[empty bloom]

Point 1 in general rankles me because that's not an excuse for boring character inspo. Like, yeah, duty-driven Spartans like that are kinda boring.

But you can have a solid, stable character who is driven by duty and honor and is stale as toast and still have them be compelling! Captain America is like, right there!

[unique rune]

I remember getting into an argument once over Carter's merits as a leader
mostly because he has none displayed in any of his screentime and mostly is just a mouthpiece for Kat to their higher ups

[empty bloom]

I mean yeah that's also a thing with Carter

[unique rune]

you could just cut him out of the campaign and let Kat speak to Holland directly and nothing would meaningfully change

[lapis steeple]

Halsey was a necessary evil because ONI would and does more evil on the Regular nor was she the only person involved in the Spartans and there signs of regret but all Halo media needs to pick her Specifically as the scapegoat

[empty bloom]

You aren't a scapegoat when you were just as elbow-deep in the guts of what you did as anyone else.

You're especially not a scapegoat when using kids was explicitly your call.

Like, you're an active participant and project lead lmao

[lapis steeple]

Reach,legends, Grasslands apparently I havent read it yet

[bronze prawn]

The most remarkable thing Carter in the game is dying

But i guess i could say the same

[empty bloom]

Halsey honestly doesn't get enough flak.

[bronze prawn]

About the rest of noble

IDK

[empty bloom]

Like, at best, she regularly engages in treasonous behavior for the pettiest of reasons.

At worst she's actively getting people killed for her hubris on the regular.

[lapis steeple]

I'm not saying the hag ain't evil I'm just saying that ONI and the Spartans as whole is scuffed as hell

[lapis steeple]

S111s weren't created on her output

[lapis steeple]

Again she evil

Its just weird that we picked her Specifically

[empty bloom]

I mean I can also make the point of Kurt "Cycle of Abuse Fan" Ambrose being complicit and explicitly also a horrible person due to it.

[lapis steeple]

Ackerson

[empty bloom]

You don't get points for feeling bad about sending kids to their death lmao

Ackerson's crappy too, but Kurt doesn't get nearly enough flak either.

[lapis steeple]

Parangosky(Man I really need to read Kilo-5)

[empty bloom]

Parangosky is frankly the most honest person in that entire cycle regarding her complicity.

She even directly told the rest of the heads of the UNSC "Yeah, I did the Spartan program" with a full dossier when she retired.

[lapis steeple]

Everyone that was even in the vicinity for the Spartan 2s

[lapis steeple]

Even the janitors ain't making it to the gates

[empty bloom]

It's funny because people look at Parangosky like she should've been punished as harshly as Halsey, but like... She didn't exactly disagree with that assessment.

[lapis steeple]

But we pick Specifically Halsey and Halsey alone

[lapis steeple]

Man I need to read Kilo-5

[empty bloom]

Fans do because they should. Halsey is horrible.

But there's also a lot of people who don't get flak because people like Spartan IIs (Kurt) or like IIIs (Lucy and Tom) or like the rough drill instructor (Mendez)

That Mendez did all that crap and became a freaking planetary governor for it is actually a load of bull.

That's over 1000 children he signed off on having beaten into shape, literally.

[bronze prawn]

I think Paragonsky knows she wont get punished

[lapis steeple]

Maybe it's the absentee mother thing on top of the kidnapping children thing that puts her ahead of people that only kidnapped children

[empty bloom]

She literally let fate decide, because she stepped forward into the light willingly.

[lapis steeple]

Time to go on a tangent

1 thing I HATE about the S4s is how they've taken away from the Odsts

[lapis steeple]

Odsts would be the equivalent of Seals and Spartans tactical Nukes

It Just wasn't attainable

But with

La 4s

They're overlapping

[empty bloom]

:>

[unique rune]

the ODSTs just have a skill issue
S-IV is a merit-based program

[lapis steeple]

The best of the best of the best would be the Odsts but now they've handed it to the 4s

[empty bloom]

The first Spartan program to actually be merit based, at that.

[unique rune]

unlike S-II and -III where it’s just genetic (un)luck of the draw lol

[empty bloom]

ODSTs can die mad about it.

Maybe if an ODST individual didn't suck so damn bad they'd get to be a Spartan as well.

[lapis steeple]

It really takes away from people like buck or McKay(IYKYK)

[empty bloom]

Buck literally became a Spartan.

[unique rune]

???

[empty bloom]

How the hell is that taking away from him?

[unique rune]

a program that allows humanity’s best to

become better? is taking away from them

[empty bloom]

That doesn't even make sense as a complaint lmao

Hell, ODSTs still exist

And in huge numbers!

[lapis steeple]

That's what I meant(Probably should've phrased that better my bad)

[empty bloom]

No, either way doesn't make sense lmao

[lapis steeple]

Because they do all these crazy without the drugs and the moral ambiguity of government agents kidnapping children

[lapis steeple]

Don't get me wrong I love the 4s

[unique rune]

I mean this was what Orion/Spartan was supposed to be the whole time

instead of brainwashing and mutilating children

[lapis steeple]

I do feel like the augments should've had some sort of rejection at the cost of not kidnapping children

[empty bloom]

I, too, love it when technology doesn't advance despite having every single logical reason to advance.

[empty bloom]

I don't get this desire to arbitrarily throttle something because it's not butchering kids. Actually sounds kinda messed up.

"I think you should be worse because you weren't a suffering child"

Like, what?

Not even getting into the Political/Ethical "Ew gross" of Spartan II and III glorification, it also just doesn't make sense as a complaint.

[vagrant ocean]

What’s the argument?

[empty bloom]

That IVs took ODST's role and should have more drawbacks due to not being kids.

[vagrant ocean]

Between 40,000 and 100,000 at least.

[vagrant ocean]

They still have drawbacks, they’re still incredibly expensive to produce, run the risk of going rogue, and not everyone is compatible with some of the augmentations, mainly the ocular ones, hence the existence of the Sluagh VISR system.

[empty bloom]

Going rogue kinda comes with the territory of being a human tbh.

[vagrant ocean]

ODSTs are still useful for when you need a buzzsaw and not a scalpel, but also not a sledgehammer.

It’s like saying that because SEALs exist we should disband our paratrooper forces.

Also, ODSTs are a great breeding ground for Spartans, as only the best of the UNSCDF and UEG special forces can even get considered to join the ODSTs, and even fewer qualify for augmentation.

[empty bloom]

A lot of the II/III stuff remind me in a bad way of the "Great Man Theory" line of thinking that... I'm really grossed out by.

[vagrant ocean]

Let’s assume that all 145 members of the first class of IVs were ODSTs, that means the percentage of ODSTs that even qualified for augmentation represent between .362% and .145% of the entire ODST force.

I think scarcity counts as a drawback.

Especially one that profound.

[vagrant ocean]

I can see that

[stoic hamlet]

I really only think this applies to the II’s, honestly.

Chief especially

And Halsey, ofc

[orchid kettle]

In a narrative sense, because it robs him of his previously implied happy ending so he can be a government tool for his entire life

[empty bloom]

I think it spread to the IIIs by virtue of fan perception tbh.

And Cat IIs.

[orchid kettle]

It weirdly happens with the Battleborn kids too, where they all just kinda forget their previous dreams and leap straight into spartanhood

[stoic hamlet]

Only via Noble Team.

No other III has even really been acknowledged.

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah, one of the better things about the IIIs is that the genetic and biological requirements were loosened, which helped mass production.

[orchid kettle]

even if they're Spartan 3.5s or proto-IVs or whatever

[empty bloom]

I mean, at least Dare gets to reap some rewards of that.

IYKWIM.

[stoic hamlet]

But overall there is an alarming trend in Halo of glorifying stuff like that, where other franchises (somewhat) call it out.

[vagrant ocean]

Breh

[orchid kettle]

Dare kinda gets done dirty too because ODST implies that she couldnt marry Buck because she was a secret agent

but she still is

and apparently now its not a problem

[empty bloom]

They are married now!

Honestly it didn't make sense before.

Because like, undercover agents and stuff get married too, they just usually have a really crap work-life balance and thus don't

[orchid kettle]

Im assuming the idea is that she could be sent out on a top secret assignment, die, and Buck may never have any idea of the truth of what happened to her

And yeah, I assume it was something she did out of consideration for Buck

and not necessarily because there's an in-universe rule preventing ONI agents from getting married

[empty bloom]

Like I've talked to first sergeants for special forces units before and they comment on how their job really sucks because these guys have zero work-life balance and usually are kinda horrible to their spouses

For one reason or another

[orchid kettle]

To me with Alpha-Nine, its just an issue of bringing back characters who already had their story

and in doing so, you end up trampling on that original story

[empty bloom]

I mean it explains some current events we can't talk about here.

[orchid kettle]

Like I think the post-war if anything is pretty good about letting non-military, or at least, non-combatant characters step up and shine

[empty bloom]

Or why people still think the Mantle is to be aspired to.

[empty bloom]

It's certainly better than it used to be, yeah.

I do wish we'd see things like Osteo more.

I like my industrial suits.

[orchid kettle]

Whenever we come back to the UNSC and Spartans I kinda start zoning out

[stoic hamlet]

Thankfully we can talk about it in other places.

[empty bloom]

Oh, are they allowing that in Halopedia?

Or did you mean DMs lmao

[orchid kettle]

I do think the idea that IVs have replaced ODSTs narratively has merit, but I think if given the choice, I would prefer stories to be more focused on aliens or civilians over the UNSC anyway. So in my ideal scenario there probably wouldn't be room to introduce ODST main characters anyway.

In recent books there's been attempts to throw ODST bros a bone but sometimes it feels a bit silly

like in Empty Throne where there's no named ODST characters but the story insists that off-screen they totally did something important

But the ship they deployed from was stated to have hundreds of IVs, so Im not sure why the Victory didn't just send more Spartans if that thing was in fact so important

Outcasts imo is kinda similar. Getting the anti-guardian gun sounds like the most important thing ever, but the UNSC apparently can't spare more than Vale?

What about Fireteam Jorogumo?

[stoic hamlet]

Both~

[orchid kettle]

Honestly there being hundreds of IVs kinda steps on everyone's toes a bit, since you'd also figure Gray Team should have had way more back up

and the fact that one of the few IVs that DID tag along was a traitor was crazy odds

[stoic hamlet]

The ODST’s shouldn’t have been involved. It should have just been other IV’s.

I also think the one Iv that had a vaguely supersoldier superiority complex being the traitor is kind of a missed opportunity.

I mean, I get it, but it’d have been interesting if he wasn’t a traitor but still had such views.

[vagrant ocean]

Those who seek the Mantle are unworthy of it.

[warm ridge]

Parangosky was fully on board with kidnapping children and indoctrinating them.

Parangosky was not on board with replacing said children with clones that suffered pretty bad deaths, along with traumatizing the parents. She was firmly against this and had no idea Halsey had done it until after the Covenant war ended. @lapis steeple @bronze prawn

[warm ridge]

That's not really what's happened, it's just that 343i itself hasn't bothered exploring the ODST's much at all.

Spartan IV's are still tactical nukes, just like Spartan II's.

[empty bloom]

I wonder where Kobolds are gonna fall in the UNSC order of battle.

I figure somewhere between ODSTs and Spartans.

[warm ridge]

This is entirely false. ODST's are still augmented to an extent, the augmentations just aren't anywhere near as extensive as Spartan augmentations are.

ODST's are made to have more buffed up muscle mass and such etc.

[lapis steeple]

They are augmented just so they can survive the whole jumping through hell thing

[lapis steeple]

And just ever so slightly

[lapis steeple]

It's more narrative than In universe for me
Orion-All volunteer at the best of the best of the best, barely does anything. morally white program
S11-Does A LOT of stuff but at the cost of nabbing kids. Morally black program
S111s-same as the twos but now they're war orphans. Morally black program

[vagrant ocean]

I love how THAT was the line she wouldn’t cross.

[vagrant ocean]

Well the war orphans were “volunteers” so the Spartan-III program is more morally gray.

[empty bloom]

No, that's not morally gray. That's just a different shade of pitch.

[lapis steeple]

Asking kids as young as 4 whose families have just been murdered and asking them if they want revenge before whisking them off to shady government agentville isnt grey it's just a slightly less black program

[lapis steeple]

So less you'd probably not even notice it

[warm ridge]

That's not what was implied at all.
Dare wasn't able to give Buck a "yes or no" answer because she thought she'd never see Buck again, and they went there separate ways.
You can see this entire convo happen in ODST in real time, with Buck saying "Oh..Well..Here I am!" after it.

When the Covenant War ended, Buck & Dare basically had non-stop contact with each other from Feb. 2553 & on wards. It's heavily implied they were in a fully committed relationship by this point.

When the Created Conflict was just beginning, Dare made Buck promise her that he'd come back after trying to track down Chief.

Dare later reconsidered marrying Buck while they were reuniting Alpha Nine. Both Buck & Dare had agreed that they didn't get married in the past due to how dangerous there jobs were. Buck also almost died by falling out of a Condor.
These events happened in Halo: New Blood & Bad Blood.

It wasn't until after Alpha Nine was reunited that Dare "dared" Buck to marry her, and they were successfully married on the Infinity. Well, as successful as a marriage as you could get anyways.

[stoic hamlet]

There’s never been any lore indicating ODST’s are augmented.

They make use of combat stimulants, but so do all UNSC forces.

[warm ridge]

To be fair, that entire operation was more of a ONI secretive operation. Vale was really the only Spartan still out in the field at Sanghelios that they could trust with said op. Also, this is during the Created Conflict, sparing anymore Spartans at all just doesn't sound like a realistic play unless either the Infinity was involved, or Earth is involved.

ONI really has no idea who's compromised and who isn't by this point to. It's not every day you hear about going on a hunt for a "Guardian killing weapon".

[warm ridge]

By 2560 there's definitely thousands of IV's, not just hundreds. At least it's heavily implied to be the case.

[wispy pewter]

idk about that

[vagrant ocean]

Just a reminder that the numbers for the Spartan branch are padded out with IIIs that aren’t currently working for ONI, which explains why there seems to be so many post war.

[empty bloom]

Well, that, and roughly 1K would be trained a year if we go off the stated size of the first class and use that to extrapolate the actual number per facility per year after the first.

We know that the class after the first was expanded, and then we know they started building more facilities after that, so I think a low estimate of roughly 4-5k (Roughly 0.5K of which is actually IIIs) is safe by 2560.

[vagrant ocean]

And with pretty much every defense contractor in human space making armor, equipping them is pretty easy.

And it appears almost every large ship at least has a fireteam onboard.

[empty bloom]

I tend to figure roughly a full half of IVs are tied up in various fleet activities, a fourth are on expeditionary movements like the Infinity, and of that last fourth it's a split between headhunters, FCUs, trainers, and other odd fields like Lone Wolf ops.

[stoic hamlet]

Also armour and weapons testing, likely.

[empty bloom]

Part of what I meant by training. We know that Crimson was last helping test new equipment and anti-Promethean tactics, for example.

[stoic hamlet]

Ah fair.

[empty bloom]

I see that BraveExpress typing.

[tropic forge]

No, the Halo 4 visual guide is explicit that circa 2557 there are only "several hundred" Spartan-IVs in active service. The Halo 4 Field Guide says that the "vast majority of currently deployed" Spartan-IVs are on the Infinity.

[tropic forge]

Slowly yeah

[vagrant ocean]

I know nobody asked, but a few of my OCs engage in armor testing, mainly reverse engineered Forerunner and Archaeohomina tech, and the MENACHITE helmet.

[empty bloom]

Then the number's weirdly inconsistent given the other stated listings of when and where Spartans are made.

That said, 'several hundred' can be low thousands.

[tropic forge]

but the Infinity has 300-500 Spartan-IVs on it at this time.

[empty bloom]

Also, aren't those two guides explicitly called out as being inaccurate multiple times?

[fierce sigil]

I wonder why noble-6 and Master Chief are the only two Spartans ever labeled "super deadly" by Halsey

[tropic forge]

I don't think either have any systemic issues like the early Encyclopedia

[empty bloom]

They never actually said the second was Chief to my knowledge, but either way

It's just advertising

Fans took it too seriously

[fierce sigil]

:(

[empty bloom]

I'd take it about as seriously as a claim that a GI Joe figure has Kung Fu grip.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s also been 3 years.

[tropic forge]

The good news is that some of the newer references seem to be pushing towards larger numbers of Spartan-IVs--ignoring the former. I wish they'd ignore the latter. I maintain the Infinity should've had 30-50 Spartan-IVs on it.

[empty bloom]

Also, the field guide, to my knowledge, actually does have a lot of nonsense stats if it's the book I'm thinking of. Like ones that state a Spartan IV out of armor maxes out below the current highest lift record type things.

[vagrant ocean]

Just edgy advertising from Bungie. Hyperlethal is a stupid term.

[empty bloom]

The NEW AND IMPROVED Master Chief figure, now with a HYPER LETHAL action button that lets him SPIN ATTACK his enemies

[vagrant ocean]

Ok imma be fr, I’d love to see Chief try to land a Tatsumaki Senpukyaku

[fierce sigil]

Speaking of crummy advertising, when Bungie made odst they forgot to mention that it was the exact same gameplay as three and you were basically just a spartan

[empty bloom]

All I can think of is G Gundam

[vagrant ocean]

I love that show!!!!!

[empty bloom]

"THIS HAND OF MINE IS BURNING RED. ITS LOUD ROAR TELLS ME TO GRASP VICTORY.

ERUPTING. BURNING. FINGER!"

[vagrant ocean]

Chief def hit Regret with the Bakunetsu God Finger,

[wispy pewter]

1k seems alot

[modest marsh]

I think you’re referring to this #lore-and-universe message

[empty bloom]

Yeah that thing

Half-remembered random claims

I love doing that lately, not sure why

[modest marsh]

As far as I know the physicality of IVs aren’t specifically commented on besides this

If I were to try and reconcile this, I would say it’s more so about them achieving a minimum threshold rather than it being the average baseline

[stoic hamlet]

Closest we have is in Infinite, where IV’s struggle to use ARGUS for long periods.

[modest marsh]

“The slowest, least athletic IV can still maintain a gait of 40kph for extended periods” is still pretty impressive given that they’re also +100kg

The field Manual also suggests that the true limitations of Spartans in general haven’t been discovered and its entirely possible none of them have actually achieved their true athletic potential

I think it’s a little telling that they specifically suggest trying to flip a Warthog as a “safe” training benchmark

[empty bloom]

Considering the role of Recruit armor I think that actually makes a lot of sense.

[empty bloom]

I still think that it's likely more "This is going to give me a mild headache and I'm being compared to a II who has been pretty much the primary user of this going on two decades" than anything else

[sonic lagoon]

Are Spartan V’s a thing?

[stoic hamlet]

No

[sonic lagoon]

What type of augmentations did those augmented Frieden forces have? In images of the Interplanetary wars it appears to be the UN and the Koslovics, so the Frieden as far as I’m aware have not been visually shown ever really.

Specially UN soldiers in black or dark green uniforms are fighting Khaki or light brown uniformed Koslovics.

[wispy pewter]

tomato sauce

[unique rune]

to date unspecified and frankly I doubt they ever will be

[sonic lagoon]

Do marines have augmentations? I some upgrade in HW1 and 2 that may have implied that.

[unique rune]

no

[sonic lagoon]

Booster shots but I guess those aren’t augmentations.

Of adrenaline.

They stay in game but in universe are probably only temporary, they probably administer them per time period. Rumble drugs are probably similar for Insurrectionists but way more dangerous.

Haze is a game very similar to that. Like Halo if the characters were immoral addicts.

Fallout also have many medications the player can take, so that is a parallel for a game with similar gameplay and story to halo.

[modest marsh]

It’s entirely speculation that they had augmented forces

The only thing that is definitively confirmed is that the initial phase of ORION apparently used researched derived from the Interplanetary Wars

From there, it is possible to extrapolate that the Friedenists were the most likely faction to be performing said research due to their ideological dispositions and primary industry

[modest marsh]

Stims or “stimpacks” have been canon since CE and referenced in the The Flood

We don’t know what’s in them but their primary function is to counteract fatigue

It’s possible that in high doses you’d see some level of performance enhancement however I’d assume that the downsides make this inadvisable in virtually any context except the most extreme

[still heron]

How do those two even mix? Only attacks that spin are all based with the hands. Haven't seen any spinning kicks. And no the Choukyuu Haou Den'eidan doesn't count.

[sonic lagoon]

Also how many eyes do sentinel enforcers have?

I’m assuming the interplanetary wars augmentations were either equal to or below Spartan 1.1s

[empty bloom]

We're making fun of funny titles. Don't worry too much.

[sonic lagoon]

In fact was Forge a 1.1?

[still heron]

Fair. The moves do sound cool though when translated is a whole different story.

[still heron]

Refresh my memory: Which armors did Fireteam Leviathan wore?

[modest marsh]

I disagree with that framing

You can measure the effectiveness of a given super soldier program using a variety of criteria

Spartans are, all things considered, a very unusual balance in terms of what’s required to make them as effective as they are

They’re still just human enough that you could easily mistake them for just being unusually tall but otherwise normal looking people

In a similar respect, that’s what they wanted out of ORION, but they couldn’t achieve the performance metrics they wanted when constrained by the ethical standards and program goals

If you however removed any ethical standards and didn’t consider things like the end result being recognizably human anymore…well, you could very easily carve out ways to get more bang for your buck

[wispy pewter]

how augmented are Orions even? are they like captain america strong or just normal?

[modest marsh]

If you want to get into theorycrafting, my personal belief is that the Friendens were making cybernetic clones rather than augmenting consenting adults

This is mostly because of the phrasing of the UN Genetics Rights Act which was passed in 2165, during the height of the Interplanetary Wars

[modest marsh]

We mostly have Sgt Johnson to go off of

The procedures themselves run the usual gambit of athletic and cognitive performance improvements

However their effects are so minute that it’s hard to tell without measuring that they’re strictly superhumans

[empty bloom]

We don't know.

I think.

We know it was a form of MJOLNIR, equipped with Gallows.

[modest marsh]

The most impressive thing Johnson does is consistently jump really high/far going off of the Breaking Quarantine comic where he escapes the Flood and Halo 2 when he boards the Scarab

Although, Halo NPCs having weirdly large jumps is nothing new

[empty bloom]

That said, I do not actually think Leviathan was a specifically trained Flood Combat Unit Fireteam.

This is apparently something people disagree with.

[modest marsh]

(One would hope a dedicated Anti-Flood Spartan team would’ve been more successful at handling the only known post war Flood outbreak)

[wispy pewter]

Flamethrower squad

[still heron]

That Captain should've just gone with protocol and destroyed the asteroid. Yes, I know that the Home Fleet is in dire need of materials to rebuild but there are plenty of other Asteroids that can be used.

[fierce sigil]

Honestly I think that the coolest character in the games other than all your other default cool characters is that one engineer in odst

I really like the concept

[still heron]

Even Hellbringers can get overwhelmed since their canisters make them slow to turn. Maybe a Spartan would fare better but even then it's too risky.

[fierce sigil]

Example of that would be that one odst on the level in halo three where you encounter the flood

[modest marsh]

Worth noting that flamethrower-equipped Hellbringers are equipped with non-descript exo skeletons

[sonic lagoon]

Like the BOBs from Marathon and other units? They had lots of cyborgs. It was the predecessor to Halo.

[modest marsh]

I personally headcanon that it’s a variant of the OSTEO Hazmat suit but we don’t have any specific confirmation either way

[fierce sigil]

Wait I'm talking about the wrong thing

:P

[modest marsh]

Yeah this would be a reinterpretation of Marathon concepts

[still heron]

Too risky regardless. I mean they can easily fall to the Flood if the numbers are great or by spore inhalation.

[fierce sigil]

How does Master Chief even canonically breath anyway? does he do it through his armor like a frog through its skin????

????

[still heron]

The Mjolnir armor he wears recycles oxygen and can function in the vacuum. Not indefinitely but for a while.

[modest marsh]

There is a filtration system

Like a gas mask

[modest marsh]

By a similar token, Hellbringers would need an air filtration system or self contained oxygen supply in order for them to do their job anyways

Obviously still not optimal compared to Spartans, but they’re better defended against the flood than most

[orchid kettle]

When Dare said she was afraid she'd never see Buck again, she's referring to the current events of the game, where she's been stuck in Data Hive for hours with no backup.

Buck points towards Dare's job as the reason for their breakup once or twice if I recall

Buck: "Did I...do something wrong? Because the only thing I regret about you and me? Not knowing you were a spook when we first met. I would have been a lot less charming."

Dare (COM): "That's what I miss most about you, Buck. The way your mouth was always a little faster than your brain. Look, don't start about my job. We both agreed to end it."

Buck: "Me? What about you? Oh, so full of big ONI secrets, couldn't even give a guy a yes or no answer!"

[still heron]

Fair. Though at least we don't fight against any Hellbringers in the FPS games. Wars at least a vehicle or aircraft can easily take down a Flood infected Hellbringer.

[orchid kettle]

The idea that Dare wants Buck to propose to her again after the war is won also kinda implies that what's standing in the way is her job

Which she sees as her duty, a duty that will then be fulfilled when the war is over.

[modest marsh]

unfortunately I don’t have embed perms but this is a certified no_dont.mp4 moment

[empty bloom]

I feel like the absolute best thing you'd want in flood infested areas is Hazmat, but Mark VII and Rakshasa are apparently good for if you actually want to fight the flood.

(Informally, I refer to Rakshasa specifically as GEN-N or GEN Null as it doesn't really play nice with generation stuff)

Like, the GEN-N subvariant of Viper is meant, apparently, specifically, meant for fighting Flood, because it provides extra reaction ability and such.

Which, is for Rakshasa. Of all things.

I guess the overall philosophy there is that body armor isn't as useful as being able to move quick?

[orchid kettle]

Im sure there is something a lil problematic with this idea that Dare needs to give up her career for marriage but I feel like it works a lil better if you assume Buck would have retired along with her

[modest marsh]

I mean, that’s the concession that justified mjolnir in the first place

It’s not as heavily armored as earlier exoskeletons

[orchid kettle]

and that a career in ONI isn't really the same thing as like, a corporate office or anything

[modest marsh]

Instead, the combination of Spartan-II commando with the armor makes them nimble enough to avoid most attacks to begin with

[empty bloom]

Right, I guess it'd be a natural extension of such a situation.

[orchid kettle]

Its a shame New Blood went in the direction it did, because I always read this line as like, Dare hiding her status as a super secret ONI agent for the entirety of their relationship, up until Buck proposes

[still heron]

Yet it took 6 years for it to be finalized. Though to be fair, a lot happened since then.

[orchid kettle]

Like she'd been living this double life and the second Buck wanted to take it to the next level, Dare got cold feet, not wanting to base their future on a lie

[orchid kettle]

Thats because in New Blood, its been retconned so that the "yes or no question" that ended their relationship was never about marriage

Even though its so heavily implied in the cutscene dialogue, and outright confirmed in some jokey in-game dialogue

if you stare at Buck as Romeo, there's a chance he'll say: "Last person to look at me like that was the Captain. And I asked her to marry me. So. You know."

[still heron]

I was referring to Bad Blood.

[empty bloom]

Always a chance he asked, she said no, and they kept dating.

[orchid kettle]

Maaaybe?

but given how hung up Buck was about it years later I doubt it would have lasted long after that

[still heron]

They made it work.

[orchid kettle]

Nah, not really

New Blood invented a situation where Dare was sent by ONI to be Buck's government mandated gf

Even though its been repeatedly stated that Buck is just the leader of a conventional ODST squad

They "dated" for only a week, broke up, and basically didnt see each other in person again until the events of ODST

This interpretation just doesnt fit with how they talk to each other in ODST, where their dialogue suggests quite a bit of familiarity

Not that of a one week fling, but the bitterness and longing of a long-term relationship

[empty bloom]

Damn you, ODST books.

[orchid kettle]

The "question" was also changed to Buck asking Dare if she would "stay" once the jig was up and she explained she was an ONI agent sent to make sure he had a good vacation

The result is that according to 343, Buck and Dare are not rekindling a lost love

But are getting into a proper relationship for the very first time

Which, you know, is just not the dynamic established in the game

Personally I suspect this was done for one of two reasons

1. Buck proposing to Dare was so obviously the "question" that Forbeck/343 felt that they wouldn't be revealing anything new if they continued along with what the game already implied/stated. ODST was never written with a half-prequel, half-sequel in mind, and thus already answered all questions fans could have had about the setting and characters. Thus, for a book to be worthwhile, they needed to take things in a completely different direction to justify the book's existence. Because simply telling the backstory of the game would be "too safe".

2. New Blood's purpose in a way was to set Buck up for his appearance in Halo 5. In Halo 5, Buck is on a new squad, with none of the other characters from ODST in tow. Since ODST implied Buck would have some happily ever after with Veronica after the events of the game, this simply could not do, and the nature of Buck and Dare's relationship was changed, lessened, even, in order for it to make sense that Buck would continue to serve in the military even after having gotten with Dare.

[lapis steeple]

Because they are the player characters

[lapis steeple]

If we got a game about Linda

She would be hyper lethal

If we got a game about Naomi she would be hyper lethal

It's basically just explaining why YOU in particular is the one doing all these things

To this day I will never forgive 343 for shafting the Longsword

[modest marsh]

Random Spartan IVs are player characters

[lapis steeple]

Excluding multiplayer

[modest marsh]

Spartan Ops

Halo 5

Spartan Assault

[lapis steeple]

Bungie specifically

[modest marsh]

Bungie didn’t come up with the hyper lethal thing, that would’ve been the marketing team

[obsidian thistle]

Ok so to break this down regarding Hyper Lethal.

1. Nothing said Halsey was referring to John-117 in-universe. That was always a out of universe marketing thing to get us talking. It could be any Spartan.
2. It was later retconned that every Spartan is hyper lethal.

Now why is 2 fun... It re-contextualises what Halsey is saying.

Spartan-B312s record is SOOO redacted that one of the only things that wasnt was that they were hyper lethal. And Halsey was just being her regular sarcastic self at that point in time.

Its akin to seeing a bird with wings and saying only one other bird can fly. (When we know most can)

Its a rare time a retcon actually just becomes fitting to the character

[warm ridge]

By 2557, not by 2560.
New Halo lore in recent books makes it inevitable that there's well over a thousand+ S-IV's in existence, because otherwise the numbers provided really don't make any sense.

Empty Throne specifically makes this pretty clear. It was already clear before, but not enough evidence existed at the time.
For example, Victory of Samothrace has hundress of Spartan IV's on call.

Seemingly every ONI facility has a contingent of Spartan IV's ready to go.
Tons of Spartan IV training stations exist across human controlled space.

list goes on.

[warm ridge]

The Halo 4 field / visual guides? No. You're thinking of the Halo Encyclopedia 2009 / 2011 editions. The Halo 4 ones are pretty accurate.

[wispy pewter]

Spartans went frm these super rare super soldiers to basically replacing ODSTs

[stoic hamlet]

Out of universe sure, but definitely not in universe.

It’s the same issue as the Space Marines.

The ones doing 99% of all the fighting and winning all the wars in the Imperium are the Guard and Navy, but Space Marines get all the focus.

(Well, not entirely, there are some great Guard and Navy books out there, far better and more compelling than most of the Halo catalogue, IMO, but I digress)

[warm ridge]

No, she isn't. She's referring to a distant past the 2 had, where Buck asked Dare about marriage and he never got a yes or no answer.

• Buck - "Did I... Do something wrong? Because the only thing I regret about you and me? Not knowing you were a [REDACTED] when we first met. I would have been a lot less charming."
• Dare - "That's what I missed most about you, Buck. The way your mouth was always a little faster than your brain. Look, don't start about my job. We both agreed to end it."
• Buck - "That was years ago, Veronica. I'm a little...fuzzy on the...details. You must have met a lot of other [REDACTED] since then. Why pick me for this safari?"
• Dare - "First, you're the best soldier I know, and second... You really don't remember? That night? What you asked me in the morning?"
• Buck - "I remember not getting an answer..."

Then this happens, which is directly related to the convo above.

• Dare - "Eddie Buck. Always thinking with his gun. You haven't changed one bit!"
• Buck - "Me? What about you? Oh, so full of big ONI secrets, couldn't even give a guy a yes or no answer."
• Dare - "That's not fair."
• Buck - "Oh, you got that right."
• Dare - "I never thought I'd see you again!"
• Buck - "Yea? Well...here I am!"

We do know this was about Buck asking Dare regarding marriage, which is further talked about in Halo: Bad Blood.

• Buck - “Come on, that’s unfair. You might have noticed that we’ve had a lot on our collective plate lately. I did ask you to marry me before—maybe more than once, depending on how you want to count—but we agreed that the time wasn’t right.”

[warm ridge]

This whole "nodon't.mp4" thing really needs to just stop. It's entirely pointless, and I don't even know how or why it started in the 1st place. It's basically just an annoyance for no real reason. Like bruh, huh?

[warm ridge]

That's not what is being implied at all. Buck & Dare supposedly agreed at some point that being together was to problematic given the nature of there jobs, that one day one of them would die or not be seen again without any idea on what actually happened to them.
We know Buck specifically cared about this a lot.

• Buck - “I’m not afraid of spending the rest of my life with you, Veronica. I’m afraid I won’t. I mean—”
  I cut myself off and started over.
• Buck - “We both have jobs with low life expectancies. Most people in our line of work don’t retire. They get killed. Then they get a funeral and that’s it. Doesn’t that make it hard for you, too, or is it just me?”
• Dare - “That’s my point, Buck. We might die. Would you rather die married or not?”
• Buck - “Hey, I thought we had an understanding about this.”
• Dare - “Times change, Buck. We change with them, whether we like it or not.”
• I reached down and tucked her hair behind her ear. She settled back into my hand. We stayed that way for a long time. I knew she was right. Even if one of us ended up dying out here in the fight, it’s not as though the other would be immune to that pain because we weren’t hitched. What was stopping me from taking that final step?

[warm ridge]

I don't get this impression at all in New Blood or Bad Blood. The line about Buck even stating he's asked Veronica about Marriage before is directly confirmed even, both in New Blood & Bad Blood.
Here, the convo is directly talked about in New Blood, confirming that yes, it was about marriage.

• Buck - “You remember what you told me back in New Mombasa?”
  She allowed herself a wistful smile.
• Dare - “I thought maybe you’d forgotten.”
• Buck - “Did you?”
  She shook her head.
• Dare - “I said if you won the war, we’d talk about us.”
  I spread my arms wide.
• Buck - “Well, guess what? War’s over.”
  She bobbed her head side to side in a way that said she might be willing to concede the point. The Covenant War had officially ended a year ago, but neither one of us had stopped fighting. The UNSC still hadn’t run out of acceptable foes.
• Dare - “So."
  Her voice rose in anticipation.
• Dare - “How do you want to play this?”
• Buck - “That’s really up to you,”
  I said.
• Dare - “Are you ready for this?”
  Veronica said.
  I honestly wasn’t sure what she meant. Were we talking about us or the SPARTAN-IV program? Veronica meant to have it both ways, and she wasn’t about to tell me which topic we were discussing. Not yet. ONI all the way. I played along.
• Buck - “I think so.”
• Dare - “You’d better be more confident about it than that. Once you start down this road, there’s no going back.”
• Buck - “I know that. It’s a lifetime commitment.”
  Whether **marriage **or becoming a Spartan, both held true. On the other hand, there’s never been a need for an old-Spartans’ home. She looked me straight in the eyes.
• Dare - “It’s a lot to think about.”
  I held steady, not wanting to get my hopes up.
• Buck - “That it is.”
  She took a long sip from her mug. Was she pondering or waiting? I let her savor her drink until I couldn’t take the tension a moment longer.
• Buck - “So what do you think?”
  I asked. I’ve jumped into battle from orbit more times than I care to count. I’ve cracked open my coffin from inside and leaped straight into a firefight. I have saved worlds—or at least played my part in those rescues. In all that time, I don’t remember ever having my heart beat as fast as it was right then. She pursed her lips at me as she considered the question. Then she said:
• Dare - “You should do it.”
  I felt my blood pressure drop. She wanted me to join the Spartans. If she’d wanted for us to mutually resign and settle down somewhere into civilian life, she would have said we. And maybe she would have said she loved me. Out loud. I honestly didn’t know how I felt about that. About the Spartan part, that is. A part of me was disappointed, of course, but a huge chunk was relieved. Becoming a husband would have been a strange, new adventure into territory I didn’t fully understand.

I may of went a bit over board with this, but it's accurate.

[orchid kettle]

The marriage proposal does not exist in New Blood. We know this because we witness the entirety of Buck and Dare's relationship prior to the events of the game. Any mention of marriage in Bad Blood is referring to events that happened after ODST.

ODST itself does not go any further into explaining why Dare's job was an obstacle in her and Buck being together, we just know that it just was for one reason or another.

The "question", according to New Blood, is Buck asking "Does this have to end?"

Which of course doesnt really fit with ODST, and makes no sense for Buck to ask Dare when the war is over

But you know, that's what Forbeck went with. Its the question that pivots into the reveal that Dare is a spy and was lying to Buck, and she leaves.

[warm ridge]

You've got them completely mixed up. Read the rest of the quotes, all of these come from New Blood & Bad Blood, and all of it matches up perfectly with Halo 3 ODST.

They get married in Halo: Bad Blood officially.
Halo: New Blood is where Buck & Dare talk about the events that happened in ODST, Buck thinking about back when he proposed to marry Dare originally but Dare put it on hold for after the war ended and various other things.

[lapis steeple]

I will never forgive 343 for shafting longswords my beloved

[orchid kettle]

There is no marriage proposal in the Buck and Dare flashbacks in New Blood.

Dare - “I said if you won the war, we’d talk about us.”

Notice how this doesnt say marriage

[warm ridge]

Yes, this is referring to the question Buck laid out to Dare before, regarding marriage.

[orchid kettle]

There was never a marriage proposal in New Blood.

There was simply no time.

[warm ridge]

are you just not paying attention to any of this?

like..did you read any of it?

Yes, it literally is.

[orchid kettle]

According to Forbeck, Buck and Dare banged for a week, met again during an op to save Sarah Palmer (albeit over the radio and all they did was bicker), and then they dont see each other again until ODST

Where is the marriage proposal supposed to have happened?

[warm ridge]

Again, read the quotes. It plainly tells us that Buck proposed to Dare sometime during the Covenant war, but Dare put the question on hold.

[orchid kettle]

And that doesn't fit with the actual events of New Blood

[warm ridge]

Yes, it does.

[orchid kettle]

Buck and Dare only knew each other a week

[warm ridge]

Because New Blood direclty confirms it.

[orchid kettle]

Dare bounces the second Buck says "Does this ever have to end?'

[warm ridge]

Like it plainly confirms it directly, are we reading the same book?

[orchid kettle]

My guy

[warm ridge]

did you not read the same quotes I just posted above?

[orchid kettle]

Think for one second

[warm ridge]

Yes my guy, read it.

[orchid kettle]

When does it happen

They were never a couple before ODST according to New Blood

Buck's timeline of events is one week bangfest, chatting over the radio, and then meeting again for the events of ODST

Where are the multiple marriage proposals supposed to be taking place

[warm ridge]

False, they were.

[orchid kettle]

Where?

[warm ridge]

None of this matches up with what New Blood says at all.

[orchid kettle]

Its the exact events of the book.

[warm ridge]

It's not, I honestly think you must've read the wrong book or a fan fiction at this point.

Like you've even ignored the quotes I firmly laid out from New Blood & Bad Blood, this is honestly insane.

[orchid kettle]

Best I can figure is that Forbeck made a mistake and forgot he retconned the marriage proposal

Because it never happens in the actual book

After the op in which Buck disobeyed orders to save Sarah Palmer, Buck and Dare get into an argument. This happens in 2546, one year after their week long fling, and following that scene:

It’s hard to believe that we wound up together again after that, I know, but it was a long war. We couldn’t duck each other forever—especially not when the stakes were at their highest. She avoided me as long as she could, and I’m not too proud to admit I did the same, right up until the Covenant found and invaded Earth in 2552.

They. Do. Not. Speak. Until. 2552.

Where is the relationship

I didn’t know if I’d ever see Veronica again after that week.

I managed to track her down through UNSC channels, but she ignored me every time I tried to initiate contact. She didn’t say one word to me for almost a year.

This is from the chapter before

Unless Buck's marriage proposals were him blowing up Dare's DMs without an answer for a year

There is simply no time for an actual relationship.

[lapis steeple]

Is there any explanation for why the Insurrectionists were still beefing with the UNSC pretty deep into the Covenants Invasion

[dusk jetty]

Same with any other scenario like it, the way the innies saw it, the covenant was just helping with the chore of killing the UNSC. The faction in the rubble didn’t even know the covenants intentions and just assumed they were fighting the UNSC, rather than total genocide

Think of the Japanese invasion of China, the kuomingtang and communist party were on the path to warfare but put it aside for a moment to fight the invaders. Soon as the invaders were gone, they imploded

Their animosity didn’t go away while fighting, they just put it aside

[carmine sleet]

There were also Insurrectionist factions who thought the Covenant was a hoax made up to try and convince systems that being independent from the UNSC was a bad idea

Let's just say their thoughts on that changed real quick when staring down a glassing beam from a Covenant supercarrier

[slim salmon]

Why is Master Chief still a... well... Master Chief?

Sure, it's the highest "legal" rank he can get but he literally saved humanity by destroying an alien empire

He also outsmarted an android that would've eliminated all life in the universe

Actually, he did that several times

(I think)

Can't he have some kind of exception or something?

[carmine sleet]

"The Admiral" doesn't have the same ring to it

[frigid heart]

Highest enlisted rank, any higher and he’d have to commission as an officer, and he doesn’t want that.

[empty bloom]

*Galaxy

[vagrant ocean]

What ADV said, but also, people seem to forget that his de facto rank and authority far outweigh his de jure rank. Is why he was able to essentially order Commander Lasky to fire the Infinity’s main guns at the Mantle’s Approach and why Fred, despite being a higher rank, still lets him lead Blue Team (that and the fact he was always the leader).

Depending on the person, there’s nothing really stopping Chief from directing an entire naval strike group from the ground.

[stoic hamlet]

Due to a Naval code I can’t recall off-hand he can pull rank, but some units (like UNICOM) might tell him to shove it. We don’t know how a situation like that would work.

The closest example we have is in the opening of Oblivion, and John notes he has no command authority there at all.

[vagrant ocean]

It’d basically have to be a person who’d step back cuz the savior of humanity needs the fleet to make something disappear

Or someone who owes Chief a MASSIVE favor.

[still heron]

Maybe Lord of Admirals but even then it doesn't sound well off regardless. Honestly I wish his promotion to his rank wasn't done so early in the war.

[vagrant ocean]

Tbf, Lord of Admirals is a rank that hasn’t been in use for nearly 100,000 years.

[stoic hamlet]

Lord of the Admiralty, though.

First Naval Lord

[vagrant ocean]

Oooo

[wispy pewter]

Maybe Master Chief should get his own rank

[unique rune]

please no

I think they should promote him just to force Microsoft to try to convince everyone to go along with rebranding him to the Lieutenant or something because it'd be funny

[modest marsh]

In universe, they essentially treat it like it is

Per the field manual, while the official rank of MCPO is still used, “Top Chief” is the informal title that gets used apparently

[still heron]

There are many Master Chief petty officers, but John is top Chief for a reason.

[warm ridge]

i have been trying to reply to this message with a ton of text from New Blood & the bot keeps deleting the message and I've completely given up on figuring out what it is.

i've narrowed it down to a single sentence and there's literally nothing in the sentence that seems bad

[warm ridge]

2545 -
I’d met Veronica for the first time a year earlier than that, when I was on shore leave back in 2545.

2552 -
Sometime shortly after Buck & his team arrived at Earth, Dare had tracked him down to put him on a new mission which was the beginning of Halo 3 ODST.
Oct. 2552
Buck - "Did I... Do something wrong? Because the only thing I regret about you and me? Not knowing you were a [REDACTED] when we first met. I would have been a lot less charming."
Dare - "That's what I missed most about you, Buck. The way your mouth was always a little faster than your brain. Look, don't start about my job. We both agreed to end it."
Buck - "That was years ago, Veronica. I'm a little...fuzzy on the...details. You must have met a lot of other [REDACTED] since then. Why pick me for this safari?"
Dare - "First, you're the best soldier I know, and second... You really don't remember? That night? What you asked me in the morning?"
Buck - "I remember not getting an answer..."

Then this happens, which is directly related to the convo above.

Dare - "Eddie Buck. Always thinking with his gun. You haven't changed one bit!"
Buck - "Me? What about you? Oh, so full of big ONI secrets, couldn't even give a guy a yes or no answer."
Dare - "That's not fair."
Buck - "Oh, you got that right."
Dare - "I never thought I'd see you again!"
Buck - "Yea? Well...here I am!"

Nov. 2552
Buck - “Hey,” I said, “Gretchen and Dutch got hitched.”
Dare - “Gretchen was sidelined by an injury,” she said. “And Dutch is stuck here with Alpha-Nine rather than back home with her. Is that how you want us to be?”
Buck - “I could retire,” I said, looking for some kind of solution that would make us both happy. “Maybe we both could.”
She didn’t buy it for a second. She gazed into my eyes with a look that said I know you too well.
Dare - “Not while there’s still a job we need to do,” she said. One of the things I love about Veronica is how she’s always right. But I wouldn’t be honest if I didn’t confess I sometimes hate it, too.

2553 -
We’d been on Sundown a full week, and I’ll be damned if we weren’t still having the time of our lives. I’ve known a fair few people in my life, but I never fit with anyone the way I did with Veronica. We even dared to start talking about a life together, like it might actually happen.

Jun - “We didn’t want you to waste too much time making any new plans.”

I didn’t know if that was a thinly veiled reference to my advancing relationship with Veronica or not. I didn’t really care.

I looked toward the door Veronica had disappeared through. We’d only just started thinking about our lives together. What would becoming something more than human do to that?
After all, it had to be important enough that she’d track me down personally in the middle of the Battle for Earth. On top of that, remember that I hadn’t seen her for a whole six years after that mission on Sargasso, and we’d finished that on pretty lousy terms.

It also meant there was hope that Veronica might be alive, too. After the mission on , I’d buried any feelings I had for her as deep as I could go. Seeing her again had dredged a lot of them up, but in an angry, frustrated way. The thought that she might still be breathing filled me with such hope—I realized that I hadn’t done nearly as good a job of getting over her as I’d thought.

That’s when I heard Veronica’s voice calling for me over the comm. “Buck!” I can’t remember ever being so relieved in my life. I’d just hauled my entire team back into an about-to-be-glassed city on little more than a hunch. Veronica had always stirred strong feelings in me, but I hadn’t till that point been a hundred percent sure I could trust them. Hearing her voice meant I’d made the right choice.

Despite the insanity of the moment, or maybe because of it, I had the nerve to ask Veronica about us—her and me—as we left New Mombasa behind. “Win this war,” she said, “then ask me that again.” It was a fair answer, and let me tell you, that’s what I call motivation.

Once Vergil finally opened up, ONI didn’t need Alpha-Nine around much anymore, and they set us loose so we could get back to the war. That cut my little working vacation with Veronica short, but by that time, we’d come to an understanding. Much as we cared for each other, two working soldiers couldn’t commit to anything in the middle of a war.

[orchid kettle]

I don't really understand what you're trying to prove.

I never denied Buck and Dare were in a relationship post-ODST, New Blood does not go as far as to break them up or anything

What I was saying is that New Blood's interpretation of Buck and Dare's relationship is inconsistent with how the relationship is presented in ODST originally

Where Buck and Dare were clearly were once in a long-term relationship that eventually led to Buck popping the question. And when the question went unanswered, possibly as the result of Dare's job as an ONI agent, the pair went their separate ways. The game itself heavily implies the "question" is marriage, with Buck outright confirming it in some funny rare piece of gameplay dialogue. Buck and Dare being at the point in a relationship where one would feel comfortable proposing to the other would of course imply that this was a long-term relationship, strengthened by Veronica's use of the "Eddie" nickname, and the history the two constantly allude to in their bitter bickering.

In New Blood, there simply cannot be a previous long-term relationship.

They had a fling for a week, Dare ghosted Buck for a year, they met again just to fight, and then they do not speak to each other again until ODST

If Forbeck decides that Buck is constantly asking about marriage a month after the game, then honestly its either a mistake on his end or he really wants Buck to actually come across as this pathetic and desperate

I suspect the former, personally, and figure those chapters were written during a time where Forbeck had not yet decided to radically overhaul Buck and Dare's backstory

Because Buck immediately harping about marriage only really makes sense if the idea is that he and Veronica are picking up where they left off, as according to ODST, they were once in a long-term relationship

But in New Blood's timeline, Buck and Dare are basically only just now dating in earnest, and Buck is pestering her for marriage

Which is just kinda sad characterization

and I don't think Forbeck wants you to think Buck is this pathetic

Like, funnily enough, if you look at the New Blood relationship objectively, Buck is essentially just this guy who became obsessed with Dare despite only being with her for a week, and the second he gets his foot in the door, he's immediately trying to lock her down for life.

[warm ridge]

This "year" being 2545 to 2546 btw. He didn't speak to Dare again until 2552, which you can see in the message above. Both Oct. & Nov. 2552 implies Buck & Dare had some sort of relationship / marriage proposal here where Dare never gave Buck a "yes or no" answer.

The "We figured it out" part seemingly happened in 2553, after Buck turned down the offer to become a Spartan while they spent a week together. It wasn't until after Rookie's death in 2554 that Buck did decide to become a Spartan, though. Which is also where Buck was asking Dare regarding his marriage proposal again from back in 2552, the same one he didn't get a "yes or no" answer from.

[orchid kettle]

The discrepancy exists because ODST implies a wildly different relationship history than New Blood.

Again, seriously

[warm ridge]

I just showed you the actual relationship, and whatever little bits we haven't seen ourselves.

[orchid kettle]

There is no room for ambiguity when taking New Blood's timeline into consideration.

They meet, bang for a week, do not speak for a year.

They meet, fight, do not meet again until the game.

Where is the relationship supposed to be.

We never saw Buck propose during the week. He obviously doesn't propose during the fight.

The reason why it doesn't make sense is because New Blood's interpretation just doesn't mesh with ODST's portrayal.

[warm ridge]

That Buck & Dare had a pretty long off & on relationship & that Buck had asked Dare to marry him in 2552..? It's pretty damn obvious. Something you can't quite seem to agree on at all.

[orchid kettle]

There is no off and on.

[warm ridge]

It's not at all.

[orchid kettle]

They avoided each other.

End of story.

Forbeck just made a continuity error.

[warm ridge]

The game, and books surrounding the events all imply it to be marriage. Again, this is obvious if you actually read it. Nothing's changed here at all.

[warm ridge]

But it tells you flat out that this is the case.

[orchid kettle]

Yes.

This is what we call a contradiction.

Authors make these blunders sometimes.

Forbeck detailed Buck and Dare's relationship in such a way that it no longer makes sense.

It's honestly not too dissimilar to how Nylund had Halsey know that Harvest was destroyed way before the fleet the UNSC sent to investigate even arrived, according to a timeline Nylund establishes later in the book.

Also, your own quote proves there was no off/on in the multi-year gap between Sargasso and the Battle of Earth

"After all, it had to be important enough that she’d track me down personally in the middle of the Battle for Earth. On top of that, remember that I hadn’t seen her for a whole six years after that mission on Sargasso, and we’d finished that on pretty lousy terms."

[warm ridge]

I don't really understand what you're saying here at all. We know Buck had asked Dare about marriage before the game ODST ever happened, the book implies this, game, everything does. At this point I'm confused why you're so in denial over it.

[orchid kettle]

The book does not imply it.

[warm ridge]

This is seen in both New Blood & Bad Blood, it does imply it.

[orchid kettle]

I beg of you to read your own "evidence"

It doesn't.

[warm ridge]

The evidence speaks for itself, whatever you say against it is just nonsense at this point.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, it does speak for itself

it says Buck and Dare did not see each other for six years.

There is no off and on again relationship

There is only what we've personally seen.

and we've never seen a marriage proposal.

Hell, in the new canon, the Nov 2552 is the marriage proposal

But notice how its after the game.

[warm ridge]

Yep, Buck talking about marriage right here. I agree.

Nov. 2552
Buck - “Hey,” I said, “Gretchen and Dutch got hitched.”
Dare - “Gretchen was sidelined by an injury,” she said. “And Dutch is stuck here with Alpha-Nine rather than back home with her. Is that how you want us to be?”
Buck - “I could retire,” I said, looking for some kind of solution that would make us both happy. “Maybe we both could.”
She didn’t buy it for a second. She gazed into my eyes with a look that said I know you too well.
Dare - “Not while there’s still a job we need to do,” she said. One of the things I love about Veronica is how she’s always right. But I wouldn’t be honest if I didn’t confess I sometimes hate it, too. (edited)Sunday, November 30, 2025 8:23 PM

Now you'd know this if you bothered reading it.

[orchid kettle]

So, a conversation set after the game Halo 3: ODST, in which neither characters admit to a marriage proposal having been offered before, is proof that a marriage proposal happened before?

[empty bloom]

Considering this is the same guy who thinks that CBRN is not a thing in Halo outside of being the name of CBRN filters, I wouldn't take his stance on this as gospel.

[orchid kettle]

It just feels like Nighter throws text at you without bothering to read it himself

[warm ridge]

These events also happened in 2554 btw, with Buck talking about marriage, and a question he asked Dare back in New Mombasa in 2552.
Shocker, I know.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah.

Notice the cute wording

"Talk about us"

[empty bloom]

It's a conversation about a fictional relationship. Settle down, Nighterlev.

[orchid kettle]

not "talk about marriage"

In a scenario where Buck and Dare had never even so much as dated properly before

"talk about us" can just mean them choosing to be in an exclusive relationship at all

and is likely what Forbeck is driving at

[warm ridge]

We just ignoring the part where he directly refers to marriage?

• Whether **marriage **or becoming a Spartan, both held true. On the other hand, there’s never been a need for an old-Spartans’ home. She looked me straight in the eyes.

Yea, it was about marriage the whole time. How are you this in denial? It's right in front of you, the very words. For gods sake.

Come on already.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah. And like I've been saying: Forbeck has clearly forgotten to proof read his draft before sending it in.

The mentions of marriage are simply not consistent with previous chapters.

The "question you asked me in the morning" in New Blood is clearly supposed to be the newly invented "Does this ever have to end?"

[warm ridge]

That Buck was referring to marriage the entire time about a question he asked Dare in 2552 and never got an answer for?
Which kept coming up in 2553, 2554, hell even 2558 when they finally did get married? Because Dare simply had enough of the "playing around" and "waiting for wars to end"?

I really fail to see how Forbeck would make a mistake like this that can be seen across 2 novels. It's in both of them.

[orchid kettle]

Buck never proposed, according to New Blood.

[warm ridge]

He did though, according to New Blood. I just showed you direct evidence of that.

[orchid kettle]

And Forbeck is mistaken.

[warm ridge]

Like all these quotes I'm sending you come from New Blood dude.

[orchid kettle]

He established a timeline with absolutely no wiggle room.

Unless, again, Buck was proposing to Dare in the DMs the year she ghosted him

Which again, serves to make Buck look utterly pathetic

and likely is not what Forbeck intends

[warm ridge]

I think I sent you like a single quote from Bad Blood, and that was just Buck saying he asked Dare to marry her multiple different times (which can be seen in New Blood at least 3 different times alone from 2552 to 2554).

[orchid kettle]

Those times can simply be after ODST

Like the Nov 2552 one

Which is after ODST

Still pathetic of course, considering he just got with this girl like a few weeks ago

[warm ridge]

But one happened before the events of ODST as well, which New Blood clearly flat out says. So does the one in Nov. 2552, where he's still bringing it up with Dare just like he did in Oct. 2552.

Like bruh, it's all right there.

[orchid kettle]

When.

[warm ridge]

???

[orchid kettle]

My guy

[warm ridge]

I already sent this like twice now.

[orchid kettle]

Nov2552

is after ODST

How many times do I need to repeat it

Where is the marriage proposal in the six year gap where they weren't in contact.

[warm ridge]

Yea..? Because he's talking about the time he asked Dare to marry her before this, and he's bringing up that to see what Dare thinks about it.

You can clearly see this here to.

• Despite the insanity of the moment, or maybe because of it, I had the nerve to ask Veronica about us—her and me—as we left New Mombasa behind. “Win this war,” she said, “then ask me that again.” It was a fair answer, and let me tell you, that’s what I call motivation.

Like dude, my guy, it's flat out in front of you.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah.

In the original ODST, that was clearly about marriage, yes

In New Blood, its not

[warm ridge]

It is.

[orchid kettle]

Its just a generic "talk about us"

[warm ridge]

It tells you it is dude, oh my god.

[orchid kettle]

It doesnt lol

[warm ridge]

yea, talk about getting married.

this happens multiple times come on

[orchid kettle]

Because the question Veronica asks Buck to repeat is obviously the question they've been talking about since the beginning

i.e., a marriage proposal that had happened, according to Buck, years ago

[warm ridge]

Yea, from before ODST, about getting married. Problem solved. New Blood says this, ODST says this, Bad Blood says this.

[orchid kettle]

Where is the marriage proposal years before ODST

[orchid kettle]

When

[warm ridge]

I already sent this above? None of the points I sent are changing, so I don't know why you keep asking when.

[orchid kettle]

Where do you find the time to propose to a girl when you dont need see or contact her for six years.

[warm ridge]

When's already been sent

[orchid kettle]

When.

Point to the page please

[warm ridge]

I don't want to have to keep resending the same paragraphs over and over dude.

[orchid kettle]

Me neither.

Which is why I'm just telling you to find the page where Buck proposes before 2552.

[warm ridge]

Because you're going to deny it, then ask when again, and then I'll send you the same thing..again.

[orchid kettle]

No, because it doesn't exist

[warm ridge]

It does exist, I just sent it a couple minutes ago.