lore-and-universe

[fading flume]

I don’t think it’s an opinion considering the abundance of statements, but I can’t really do anything to change your mind

Sup

[empty bloom]

I mean, I'm literally the one talking to a brick wall about this right now, just so happens it can talk back.

[fading flume]

Am I supposed to be the brick wall?

[wispy pewter]

Locke failed to kill Hyperius 😂 . The guy that that damaged Chief’s visor

[empty bloom]

Infinite is so full of author fiat in a few places that it actively pisses me off a bit.

Hyperius is one of those places.

[fading flume]

It is what it is

They own the IP, we don’t

[empty bloom]

Yeah? So? I'm allowed to criticize poor writing.

If other people can piss and moan for a decade about how ''''bad'''' Halo 5's writing is, I'm allowed to piss and moan about how bad Halo Infinite's writing is.

[fading flume]

I was trying to speak in more of a jokish manner about it

I’d never try to deny anyone the right to criticize

[empty bloom]

Nah, this is srs bizniz.

[fading flume]

Nuh uh

[wispy pewter]

If all authors like to glaze chief it’s probably because it’s the writing rooms agenda

[empty bloom]

Anyways, in terms of participating in campaigns, 343i's tenure as Halo's owners has resulted in ironically bigger feats in terms of singular personal achievement for Chief unambiguously achieved via his own personal actions as a singular person, largely owing to the fact it's not really specific theaters/campaigns he's participating so much as individual missions.

Like, I don't consider the situation at Alpha Halo as impressive as the events of Halo 4 in terms of what he had to go through.

[fading flume]

The Chief agenda must live on🗣️

[modest marsh]

We don’t actually know that

[fading flume]

Here me out, Hyperius just yoinked Locke’s helmet while he was distracted spying on Banished forces and booked it

[modest marsh]

Chestplate…

[fading flume]

And his chest plate too

He is the master thief

[empty bloom]

Like, on Alpha Halo, Chief has some degree of support and maintenance, he has some degree of mission direction, and he has some degree of cover thanks to the Covenant being distracted by the UNSC garrison and eventually the flood. The mass fighting everywhere around him ended up obfuscating Chief's actual objectives, and the only guy who directly realized what he was up to and was trying to stop him was similarly inundated with threats.

[modest marsh]

Either way Locke could’ve been defeated any number of ways and Hyperius was just there to take a trophy, there’s nothing that says the “Spartan Killers” are just 1v1ing a Spartan and winning

[empty bloom]

Delta Halo/High Charity, same deal. Anyone aware of him was helpless to do much because of the obscene degree of intercenine, then survival-related, fighting.

[carmine sleet]

To second what Maggruber said, we don't know what went down between Locke and Hyperious. It's possible they had a fight, it's possible it was just pieces of Locke's Hunter armour found by Hyperious after Locke had already changed into Gen 3 or some other type of Mjolnir, we don't know

[modest marsh]

There’s a presupposition of a fair fight when we know from rubicon protocol a lot of Spartan IVs died as a result of their equipment failing and finally meeting their end against overwhelming odds after months of fighting

[empty bloom]

In Halo 3's events, up until the last two levels, he's fighting through it with a significant amount of support.

[fading flume]

There is also nothing to say against the idea, so honestly I just leave it ambiguous whenever stating it. I feel it’s apparent that Hyperius was involved in defeating Locke, but how and to what extent we don’t know

[empty bloom]

Also, yeah, on Zeta Halo, this. Chief was relatively fresh, while every single Spartan we know that made landfall on Zeta Halo was in rough shape from hour two on.

[carmine sleet]

I hesitate to say Locke was definitively defeated

Like, it's quite possible Locke managed to escape with a damaged suit

[fading flume]

He probably did, for the plot

[modest marsh]

Well, I consider that under the umbrella of “defeated in a fight” if he had to retreat

[empty bloom]

Also, unlike the Spartans of Rubicon Protocol, Chief actually did have a mission, and a Smart AI, and transport that worked. He also wasn't having his comms tapped the entire time.

[carmine sleet]

We just don't know enough about what went on regarding how the armour ended up on Hyperious' armour, even with the very small crumbs

[wispy pewter]

Lola dumb

[empty bloom]

Because there's a few severe indications in Infinite's worldbuilding that displays that pretty much from hour one on the entirity of UNSC forces were getting wiretapped.

[fading flume]

“Those who slander me don’t know ball.” - Chief

[empty bloom]

I've seen the video, Chief got his ankles broken by Jorge.

[modest marsh]

It’s valid to dislike this personally but on a meta level the reason for Chief glazing is that Chief is the reincarnation of a timeless immortal hero tying back to Marathon’s lore (and continued by Destiny)

[fading flume]

“My tum tum was hurting, that’s why I lost.” - Chief in a post interview

[modest marsh]

This is in a weird spot as far as Halo’s fiction goes

[wispy pewter]

I don’t even dislike this

I think chief is the goat

[fading flume]

Nah, I embrace the glazing. Give me statements or give me liberty.

[fading flume]

Me too, brother

[empty bloom]

I hate it. Vehemently. It's like my hatred of Star Wars always focusing on the damn Skywalkers.

[modest marsh]

Greg Bear: so what if the greatest hero of humanity in a previous age was called Lord of Admirals

Kind of like a master of chiefs

If you will

[empty bloom]

Or every single major event in Star Trek having something to do with freaking Kirk or Picard.

[fading flume]

“He said the thing!”

[fading flume]

In both canon and legends?

In legends I feel like they do world building a whole lot better than canon

[empty bloom]

Both? Neither? Whatever?

[fading flume]

Do you not know the canonical situation of the IP? I assumed you do

[empty bloom]

They focused even harder on the Skywalkers in legends, while canon they focus far harder on everyone else, which I appreciate.

[fading flume]

I mean, in the main movies for canon they latched onto the skywalkers pretty hard. At least in legends we got the old republic

Not a skywalker in sight

[empty bloom]

Legends also had a ton of books talking exclusively about Skywalkers, or descendants of Skywalkers.

Including a duel between Luke and Luuke, an Emperor-posessed clone of... Luke.

[fading flume]

Come on tho, Abeloth arc was peakers

At least give him a pass for that arc

[empty bloom]

Nobody gets a pass.

Free lunches and all that.

[carmine sleet]

Didn't Palpatine basically come back every other week in some form in Legends too

[fading flume]

heretic.

[fading flume]

Yep

[carmine sleet]

Like, complain all you want about Palpatine coming back from the dead for Rise of Skywalker, at least it hasn't happened again since in canon

[fading flume]

I think Dark Empire was the last time

[fading flume]

You see, a single cell of Palpatine contains his entire potential, and with biomass he can create his own minions to reassemble him

Palpatine is comin back, trust

[carmine sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/dandadan-dumbfounded-momo-ayase-ayase-momo-ken-takakura-gif-14575386895602202640

[wispy pewter]

Palpatine coming back in Mandalorian and Grogu

[frigid heart]

I’m so excited for that movie

[fading flume]

Pray they don’t butcher it, I’m hoping it’s as good as the first season of Mando

[frigid heart]

I’ll probably like it either way

[wispy pewter]

Considering how bad s3 was

[fading flume]

I know, all we can do is hope

[grizzled mica]

Lore: Humans are irrefutably forerunner according to the multiple interviews, media, stories, secrets, etc established

Those who deny that will have to decanonize the entire pre-343 halo game library, which is quite a lot.

[vagrant ocean]

Bruh, several devs also said they discarded that plot point because it was silly. Let’s not rehash this decade old argument.

[fading flume]

have you ever heard of retconning?

We don’t need to decanonize anything through scrutiny

We can do it with retconning

[fading flume]

From a company that has currently zero power over Halo and got retconned btw

[unique rune]

oh we’re doing this again

[boreal bane]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-sigh-gif-5895699729383201961

[fading flume]

Again? Did I miss smt

“343 isn’t canon because I say so and Bungie is supreme!!”

[minor sky]

I don't think there is a single more annoying talking point in Halo than "Forerunners are/aren't human"

[vagrant ocean]

Besides, it’s lazy writing to make them the same.

[fading flume]

Why is it such a point of contention though? They aren’t now, regardless of if they were in the past. The joy of retconning

[minor sky]

And that is saying something when this community is known for constantly bickering over sprint and ADS

[carmine sleet]

Also Bungie wasn't certain on if humanity and Forerunners should be the same or not before they finally decided on making them different via the terminals in Halo 3

[minor sky]

They clearly decided to leave to it more ambiguous

[unique rune]

Bungie was a bit vague and noncommital about it while 343 picked one direction that doesn’t actually change a whole lot and yet this fandom has spent the past like 15 years screaming about it

boy this is exhausting

[vagrant ocean]

Also the Cradle of Life comic shows a HUMAN watching the portal at Voi being built, so unless they’re saying only a certain group was super advanced (sounds like a racist dog whistle to me) then the point is moot.

[minor sky]

Really, I think it only became a problem after Infinite came out and Halo youtubers were bored with nothing to talk about

[fading flume]

The joys of the Bungie cult

[carmine sleet]

The whole thing is ultimately just a debate which doesn't need to happen at this point

[vagrant ocean]

Which is why I try to avoid it, but there’s always some dingleberry that wants to ruin everyone’s fun.

[unique rune]

I dunno if it was necessarily even after Infinite this has just been going on forever when someone wants internet attention

[minor sky]

The solution really is just to say "Forerunners and Humans are two different sides of the same species" or whatever

[unique rune]

which is also basically what 343 has done lol

[fading flume]

lol

[minor sky]

Right

[wispy pewter]

They made them rivals instead if that’s any different

[minor sky]

Thats my point

[empty bloom]

They made them cousins, effectively.

[minor sky]

You litterally just have to point to what 343i and Greg Bear have established

[empty bloom]

Nah, these people don't care. They're chasing the damn windmills.

[minor sky]

Humans and Forerunners are basically siblings

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, it’s implied we share a distant common ancestor but that’s about it. We have the same genetic similarities with them that we have with a turkey.

[empty bloom]

What pisses me off is that I saw this resurgence coming the second they decided to remake CE.

[wispy pewter]

One is like 9 feet tall and the other look like native Americans

[empty bloom]

It always does this man, the Halo fanbase is so damn cooked

[carmine sleet]

It feels like Don Quixote really wants me to read his book, he keeps coming up as of late

[empty bloom]

I just really like my windmill analogies.

[minor sky]

Idk, because they live galaxies apart?

[unique rune]

gamer time

[autumn plaza]

Isn't Cradle of Life the comic where it says the portal is being built while showing it is being buried?

[minor sky]

I fw the fan-theory/idea that Forerunners are a caste of Ancient Humanity who got flung across the universe by the Precurssors or smth like that

[unique rune]

ancient humanity were also supposedly giants compared to Halo’s modern humanity

and also Forerunners varied pretty dramatically in size by rate and they were real big on physical modification so

[minor sky]

Also very true

[fading flume]

I think it was catchy

[minor sky]

Forerunners were really into genetics in a totally not tyranical sort of way

[wispy pewter]

Admirals guy say “new ones” and didn’t mention their size

[autumn plaza]

Isn't the current narrative that Humans are Forerunner with a bunch of extra steps. With an origin we will never exactly pinpoint.

[unique rune]

sort of

[carmine sleet]

Fair

[unique rune]

they’re just different branches off a shared ancestor

[minor sky]

The TL;DR of it is (and anybody feel free to correct me if I get something wrong)
Precursors create Humanity and Forerunners, humanity was supposed to claim the "Mantle Of Responciblity" but the Forerunners, out of jealously and also a misunderstanding of the nature of the mantle, took it for themselves

[vagrant ocean]

Yep. It takes place about 10,000 years after the fall of Archaeohomina.

[vagrant ocean]

Just very very distant.

[minor sky]

Which is what happens when you live lightyears apart and make editing your genetics a core feature of your society

[vagrant ocean]

Yeh

“Well why do humans and forerunners look so similar?”

Ever heard of convergent evolution?

[empty bloom]

I'd say they actually understood it implicitly, considering what the Mantle is.

[carmine sleet]

It's just like Tentacool and Toedscool

[empty bloom]

Killing someone else 'meant' to take it is pretty much a requirement for attaining an Imperial Piece such as that.

[vagrant ocean]

Or Diglett and Wiglett

[carmine sleet]

Aye

[minor sky]

Fair

[carmine sleet]

Or the two tea themed lines which I get the names mixed up on all the time

[autumn plaza]

Doesn't Epitaph mention the Librarian's unique physical features being tied to her Theoretical rate ancestry? Specifically her Human like features. So it seem like it could be implying the Theoreticals restarted as Humanity reevolving on Earth. Possibly on several planets because Humans true homeworld is never identified. Which would make Humanity more worthy of the Mantle. They acted like Precursors. Remaking themselves.

[minor sky]

But the point I'm getting at more so is that the Mantle is supposed to be a test and the Forerunners failed it

[vagrant ocean]

I would argue that part of the test for the Mantle is if you desire it or not. Much like a monarchy, desiring the crown could be seen as a failure compared to one who doesn’t seek it.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m pretty sure Erde Tyrene is our home

Like, our true home

[autumn plaza]

The Forerunner trilogy never commits. If other world were candidates it means some kind of Humans evolved there, too.

[minor sky]

Maybe I'm missing some of the specifics, but it could be reasoned that the Forerunners and Humanity were two different opposing sides within the same species

[vagrant ocean]

I think it’s implied that we’re of the same base genetic stock just planted on opposite sides of the Orion Complex.

[minor sky]

Per Halopedia

Early in their history, long before encountering the Forerunners, humanity underwent a series of technological dark ages, which left their populations scattered across many worlds and resulted in the loss of most of their records, including the knowledge of Earth being their potential original homeworld. It was not until much later when scientists led by Yprin Yprikushma traced humanity's potential origin to Earth.

[vagrant ocean]

So even Archaeohomina scientists think Erda is our birthplace. I wouldn’t be shocked if other races of human evolved on other planets, but this at least implies that Erda is our starting point.

Remember, the Ancestors weren’t a single species, but an alliance of other human species.

[wispy pewter]

Meanwhile in Star Trek there are like a dozen different kinds of species that look exactly like humans except with ridges and no one cares

[vagrant ocean]

That’s also explained I think

[wispy pewter]

Yeah humanoid species planted life in the galaxy or something

[vagrant ocean]

The Progenitors.

[carmine sleet]

Marvel also has something similar too I recall

[vagrant ocean]

Yeee

[carmine sleet]

Since most the aliens are very much just "human but different colour"

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, you have the Eternals and Mutants that are just different species of human.

I’m dancing around our genus name cuz I’m not sure how the filter works.

[carmine sleet]

You mean the Inhumans? Not the Eternals?

Or am I getting some stuff mixed up?

[wispy pewter]

Aren’t eternals like robots or is that a movie only thing

[vagrant ocean]

Movie only. The species name after our shared genus is immortalis.

Stupid filter. I’m an amateur paleoanthropologist, cut me some slack guys.

[carmine sleet]

Just DM me what it was you said that got filtered

[wispy pewter]

Our genus name? You mean Hobo with a M?

[vagrant ocean]

Yes.

Long story short, humans and Forerunners are not the same species.

[wispy pewter]

They don’t even have noses

[carmine sleet]

They don't have human looking noses

[empty bloom]

They have noses like a certain guy from a wizard related series whose author strongly identifies with the philosophy of.

[carmine sleet]

I wasn't going to bring up that series

Mainly because I felt it was best to try and forget it

[empty bloom]

I bring it up mostly to talk about how awful the person who wrote it is.

[carmine sleet]

I was just gonna post this to explain where a Forerunner's nose is

[wispy pewter]

He’s 2 seconds away from using green magic

[fading flume]

Voldermort looking ahh

[vagrant ocean]

Bornstellar had somewhat of a nose

[heady peak]

Dang he’s one ugly looking feller

[wispy pewter]

Flat face

[vagrant ocean]

As did Chant-To-Green

[wispy pewter]

That’s mean

[heady peak]

I’ve got a question for a lore expert: I had long thought Red Team from Halo Wars were plain ol’ Spartan 2s, but then I saw a lore post on the Xbox that said they were wash outs, is that true? And if so can someone explain why they still run around in the armor and kick butt as well as the rest of the Spartans?

[vagrant ocean]

They were rehabilitated, so they underwent further surgeries and therapy to bring them to par with their brothers and sisters that didn’t washout. Other washouts that were rehabilitated were Kirk-018, Otto-031, Margaret-053, Victor-101, and Roma-143.

[heady peak]

Thanks 👍

[vagrant ocean]

Sadly, some are either still undergoing rehabilitation or are permanently crippled as a result of the augmentations, such as Cassandra-075, Fhajad-084, and Musa-096.

Keep in mind that half of all washouts died as a result of the augmentations.

So those that survived were considered “lucky”

[heady peak]

I remember the ones who were crippled when I read Fall of Reach

[vagrant ocean]

I remember when John asked Mendez what he did wrong and what he could’ve done to prevent it.

Since he was the de facto leader of the Spartans.

He felt it was his fault that they washed out.

[heady peak]

That was a good scene, it shows just how much cooler the Spartan 2s were than the 4s because despite being more stoic and less social to others, they had this sibling bond

[vagrant ocean]

As a result I’d say he was the most psychologically scarred outside the ones who broke down after the augments.

Sam, Arthur, Solomon, the washouts, he took it all personally.

It’s also what makes him an effective leader though, he will do whatever it takes to ensure as many of his troops make it home.

[heady peak]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say they like the Spartan 4s more than the 2s, and I think the more intriguing background the 2s had definitely made them more interesting

[vagrant ocean]

The IVs are better in terms of ethics, that cannot be argued.

The IIs are interesting to an extent, mainly their psychology.

[empty bloom]

Hi, I'm someone who would say that and argue that point to death.

[heady peak]

Did you start with the newer games with 4s in it?

[empty bloom]

Nope, started with CE.

IVs basically encapsulated something I was writing fanfiction about as a 15 year old when Bungie was still writing the franchise; Spartans who earned their roles through the rigors of fighting in the Human-Covenant War, who earned their role as Spartans, and who didn't start out as 'lucky' traumatized children.

[heady peak]

I don’t they were a bad they were a bad idea, but I feel like they turned the rarity of Spartans into something less special

That’s just my opinion though, and if you like them better that’s fine by me

[balmy crow]

hey jethro, just wanted to say the filter issue has been revoked for you. i caught it and saw you were trying to use the word legitimately

[empty bloom]

Rarity is an overrated quality. Mostly because it has no actual value.

I didn't even really understand the efficacy of ethics back then, I just knew

• Spartans are good
• More Spartans are better
• Making them from kids and teens is stupid even if it's necessary for the augs to work, keep trying until making adult Spartans works
• Child soldiers are ineffective soldiers
• Artificial scarcity is stupid

[modest marsh]

I’d argue fiction as early as TFOR, The Flood, and First Strike already planted the seeds for “regular” people to be considered worthy of being a Spartan

You also had Buck regarded as “if he were any better, he’d be a Spartan”

It wasn’t an idea far from the minds of early writers

[heady peak]

I know but they had a clear distinction between the Spartan 2s (scarce in numbers, using the most expensive armor, having been trained since childhood). And then they had the Spartan 3s (larger numbers, cheaper armor that could be mass produced, trained in whatever time they had before being shoved right into a suicide mission). The early writers did explore the idea of having more Spartans, but they showed the flaws of having mass produced Spartans.

I would argue that by having the toughest Spartan be the Master Chief who was a Spartan 2, he’s a living example that through the Spartan 2 program, they managed to make a soldier capable of doing all the crazy stuff Chief does throughout the story

[heady peak]

And in response to Buck being regarded as “If he was any better, he’d be a Spartan” feels less special if so many others could rise to that position themselves

[modest marsh]

IIs being rare and expensive has always been presented as a flaw

Like, everyone thought this was bad except Halsey

[heady peak]

Yes, I understand that the morality of the program was corrupt, I’m pointing out that having these super soldiers capable of killing thousands of enemies is better if it’s not overused. It’s a storytelling technique

[vagrant ocean]

YAY!! Thank you, I’m gay-ish myself and I only use the term in an anthropological sense.

[heady peak]

I totally agree that the Spartan 4 program was the most obvious choice for the UNSC to make after the Covenant war when all these non-Spartan veterans had been highlighted from their actions. I’m just saying that it sort of ruins that unique feel to the Spartans

[slim salmon]

Voldemort.

[modest marsh]

So like, disconnected from his status of being a specific type of super soldier, the identity of Chief as this legendary hero is supposed to be because of mythological/religious reasons and not because it’s something explainable or reproducible using the exact methods that Halsey and the UNSC implemented

[vagrant ocean]

It was inevitable. The increasingly successful augmentations of the IIs and IIIs made the creation of IVs not only viable, but affordable as well.

[vagrant ocean]

Even Halsey couldn’t really say what made him special.

[heady peak]

It used to be that if a team of marines were pinned down by Covenant, and they heard that a Spartan was coming to assist, most of time they wouldn’t know what that meant or would be dumbfounded.

Now based on how many Spartan 4’s there are, it would lose that sense of importance if they showed up

[modest marsh]

Spartans are still rare

[vagrant ocean]

That’s still not entirely true. Spartans are used much like how ODSTs are used.

[modest marsh]

Like, in terms of what the average person witnesses in universe

[vagrant ocean]

As shock troops meant to break enemy lines.

There’s only a couple hundred or couple thousand IVs compared to the remaining 17 billion humans in the galaxy.

Even if they had a whole division of Spartans that’d still be a vanishingly small number.

Compared to the MILLIONS in UNSC service.

[modest marsh]

I mean, even taking Cortana’s 23 billion figure at face value, it’s been a few generations since the war started so I’d venture to guess there are more people than that still around

[heady peak]

I mean if you see how many variations of Spartan armor there is (not counting the non-canon armor) and taking into account that there’s multiple Spartans using each of those variants, that would mean there’d have to be a ton of them out there

[modest marsh]

(The Cortana model is flawed because many abandoned outer colonies turned out to be safe)

[vagrant ocean]

Still compared to the amount of standard UNSC personnel it’s quite small

[heady peak]

How was there that many of UNSC after the war? After seeing how much total destruction of planet scenarios that occurred during the Covenant war, on a mathematical level the human population would be staggeringly small

[modest marsh]

Ehhh, a lot of the armor variants we see is just upgraded UNSC gear

Or gear that is intended to eventually trickle down into non-Spartan applications

Ie odst

[vagrant ocean]

Many planets were untouched, not to mention there’s the reserves.

[heady peak]

I mean Earth itself got partially glassed, and I would imagine that the climate change in the atmosphere after that would’ve been an issue

[modest marsh]

Also, over a span of 8 years where IVs have been active, each Spartan is going to go through multiple suits

[modest marsh]

That’s understating the problem

Glassed planets in general are too habitable even with the least generous examples in mind

[vagrant ocean]

Only a fraction of Kenya was glassed.

[modest marsh]

Nah even with conservative figures in terms of surface area, the excession crater alone would displace enough debris to cause global climate disruption

(And a lot of it would be radioactive)

We just kinda ignore that

[heady peak]

I feel like I’m sensing an overarching retcon where they built up that Earth was the las bastion for humanity against the Covenant, and now they’re trying to say that there’s other planets that survived just to give them more soldiers?

[modest marsh]

Yes that is exactly what happened

Joseph Staten was writing Contact Harvest the same time as halo 3 was being developed and in that it says there’s 17 colonies total

[modest marsh]

This also applies to the covenant btw, as far as Bungie was concerned I’m sure they imagined that the fleet of retribution was literally all they had

The short story Breaking Strain does more or less acknowledge/honor that earlier vibe of both civilizations having to start from scratch

[vagrant ocean]

Well I’m sure the UEG has methods to control that given our expansion and terraforming efforts.

[modest marsh]

Chem trails

[stoic hamlet]

Still my preferred depiction of a Spartan in that story.

[vagrant ocean]

Anyways, long story short the amount of IVs is negligible to the amount of regular UNSC personnel, and we have to remember that the numbers of the Spartan Branch are padded out with IIIs from Gamma Company.

I also wouldn’t be shocked if the candidates selected for Delta Company (if any were selected) were later pressed into the Spartan IV program when they reached 18.

But that’s just speculation

[modest marsh]

Legally they would only have to be 16 to be officially recruited and before then they could’ve been in the equivalent of a JROTC program

Although they probably wouldn’t be deployed into combat duty or augmented until 18

[vagrant ocean]

Which is possible by 2558/59.

[stoic hamlet]

They wouldn’t be old enough.

[vagrant ocean]

If they were 12/13 in 2552 they’d be old enough.

They’d be over 18

[strange pumice]

Ain't Spartan 4 should be 35 year old?(For recruitment)

[stoic hamlet]

Spartan III’s begin training, and the majority of III’s began training between 4-6 years old.

Where are you getting the idea the Delta recruits would be 12/13?

[vagrant ocean]

Some. Vale was 22.

[wanton tinsel]

TIL that TLNOS may have been intended for RED FLAG which would explain why it was allowed under the ODP grid

Horrible idea aside thats the first semi-believable excuse ive heard for a 19km long flagship slipping past reach’s defenses

(Like seriously, did it have to be a cso???)

[wanton tinsel]

This also explains the nukes are out of system claim, as it couldve just been a lie to protect TLNOS

[empty bloom]

You know what's kinda funny to me? There's a lot of cosmetic options that could've been used in order to make more out of the desperation of resources UNSC troops would be getting hit by, that are never made.

[wanton tinsel]

like what?

[dusk jetty]

Think rakshasha but even more cobbled-together

I wanted more mk7 pieces like that but Fred’s little hood is the closest we get

[wanton tinsel]

yea rakshasas always been weird to me

like this is mjolnir armor we're talking about, how cobbled together can you really make it while it still functions the same

[dusk jetty]

The actual use for it seems to have pivoted from something Spartans wear when they don’t have access to support services, to just “poor man’s/insurrectionists Mjolnir”

Which I am not averted to, but it isn’t what I like my cosmetics to be

[wanton tinsel]

fair

i still wear it bc it looks cool lol

but it didnt really seem like spartan gear to me before

[stoic hamlet]

Originally it wasn’t. The description mentions it was used by Delta-6 operators, that’s a non-Spartan unit, at least, in the timeframe where Rakshasa would have been used primarily by them.

[wanton tinsel]

oh neat

fair enough then

[stoic hamlet]

The infinite version we have is the version already affected by Created stuff, it’s not the factory suit.

[wanton tinsel]

gotcha

is it implied that spartans had multiple mjolnir options available to them mission by mission

or were they always in their sunday best

[stoic hamlet]

They would change armour based on the mission need.

You know, if able.

So, for example, in Silent Storm all the Spartans are kitted out for EVA missions, the cover Flat out isn’t accurate.

[dusk jetty]

Yeah I don’t think most Spartans would stick to one set

Not practical

Or tactical

[stoic hamlet]

Some suits would see more variation than others.

Like, SPI is basically a one suit fits all because it’s so specialized, and its changes would come from mostly supplemental additions.

[wanton tinsel]

see i asked bc i thought mjolnir was as expensive as each spartan wearing it

so you couldnt just have a billion sets lying around

[stoic hamlet]

The actuwl armour plates are the least expensive part.

[wanton tinsel]

half the cost being the spartan and the other half the armor

[stoic hamlet]

Those are easy to swap out.

It’s the stuff under the hood that’s harder.

[wanton tinsel]

so body glove, electronics

i imagine helmets werent cheap either

[empty bloom]

Usage of Covenant/Banished/Promethean/whatever equipment to replace/patch/supplement armor.

[vagrant ocean]

I still wanna know more about JAVELIN.

[slow wind]

I wonder what would happen if a flood infection form infected a spartan

[minor sky]

I think this kind of gets at a wider issue I have with Mark VII armor and how the other cores kind of take away from its ablity to develop its own look beyond "Gen 1 but with slightly more bulk"

[slow wind]

Specifically a Spartan II

[vagrant ocean]

We have several stories about this.

And protocols

[slow wind]

I haven’t heard of any

:>

[vagrant ocean]

Saturn Devouring His Son, we also have Infection from H4

[wanton tinsel]

I think the danger of an infected spartan is kinda overhyped

The whole nuke it from orbit thing

I imagine they’re tough but they aint invincible, and if its about intel then cpt keyes or any other major commander getting infected is probably worse

[slow wind]

Spartans are basically augmented super soldiers in power armor

Noble 6 who was a Spartan III survived falling from orbit

[wanton tinsel]

With a reentry pack

And still just soldiers, who probably become less dextrous when flood-controlled (the twitching of flood seems to indicate lacking fine motor control if you ask me)

Ive always wondered why the flood doesnt build anything

[slow wind]

I think it’s an issue of Time

[wanton tinsel]

Like, if they have all the combined knowledge of everyone they’ve ever infected (even being able to tap into ancient knowledge once they accumulate enough biomass) why werent they building their own forerunner-tier ships once a gravemind was established

[slow wind]

Why make an entire ship + FTL drive when there’s already like a dozen human/covenant ships on the planet

[wanton tinsel]

I mean fair

But the ships it could make would probably be better in a lot of meaningful ways

Or not even just ships, yknow, like they could just be retooling covenant tech to unlock its full potential

I feel like thats the problem with designing an enemy as powerful on paper as the flood, its kind of hard to write to its maximum potential

[vagrant ocean]

Chief was a Spartan-II that fell from orbit.

[slow wind]

Still

If these mf’s can fall from orbit and survive then what the hell are we gonna do if say Isaiah-21 (I made him up for this example) gets infected by an infection form

[wanton tinsel]

shoot them with about 30 rounds of 7.62

apples to oranges lol

[slow wind]

Hmmmm

Your right

🐈‍⬛

[modest marsh]

The twitching is because the flood form is puppeteering a corpse that it is proactively mutating to function beyond its previous limits

That wouldn’t apply to a Spartan compromised from the flood

[modest marsh]

A nuclear engineer needs things besides knowing stuff to build a power plant

[modest marsh]

They explicitly did this already with High Charity in order to get it to the Ark

[slow wind]

Insert the soggy cat meme here

[empty bloom]

Hell, they did it with a human ship in order to get it onto High Charity.

[modest marsh]

Also true

[slow wind]

It’s a cat… that’s soggy.

[wanton tinsel]

they're not always stretching the limits of function, they twitch and lurch as they do things as simple as walking

[wanton tinsel]

good point, maybe the changes that they were able to make were too small to be noticeable moment to moment

[wanton tinsel]

also a good point that i forgot

the flood's infantry strategy is not exactly the best and highest use of spartan physiology

you basically never see the flood do ground-based spec ops, its all cleaver and no scalpel in infantry engagements

[modest marsh]

I think you’re reading a lot into a spooky in game animation that doesn’t actually represent the dexterity of the flood, because, well, they logically need to have decent motor function skills in order to do things like accurately leap several stories

[wanton tinsel]

broader strategy sure, they're very sneaky, but the actual flood foot soldiers just run at you

[modest marsh]

I think this is a problem with all halo factions

[empty bloom]

Keep in mind that the Halo 4 Spartan Flood is based off of extrapolations (And likely actual experience) with Spartan Combat Forms

[modest marsh]

Stealth elites also just run at you with no strategy, I don’t think that means anything because shooter games are a bad format for realistic military strategy

[wanton tinsel]

thats coarse motor function, not fine. id like to see a combat form play the piano lol

[modest marsh]

They can operate weapons just fine, often one handed

Vehicle controls as well

[wanton tinsel]

if this is true, they die to other spartans all the time

[vagrant ocean]

Than can use the M90 one handed, which is insane cuz they’re an 8 gauge pump shotgun.

[wanton tinsel]

the vehicle operation is a good point but once again

[modest marsh]

I think the war games interpretation of the flood very obviously downplays their resilience

[wanton tinsel]

fine motor control. being able to bench 1k pounds does not make someone dextrous.

[modest marsh]

The flood are supposed to be nominally more resilient, by virtue of the mutated DNA being a direct improvement upon the host species’ own tissues, on top of organ redundancy and regenerative properties

[vagrant ocean]

You missed when I said it was a pump action. They can operate the pump one handed.

[modest marsh]

We also know that the flood can directly interface with and augment non-biological equipment including vehicles and mjolnir armor itself per HW2/Infinite

[vagrant ocean]

Yup

Which shows skill to an extent.

[modest marsh]

The resulting flood-Spartan hybrid should be pound for pound much more effective than before, not less

[vagrant ocean]

They can operate a bloody frigate and space station.

If that’s not fine motor I don’t know what is.

[modest marsh]

The flood tends to “ruin” the host’s skeletal muscle structure in order to generate organic weapons in the forms of spikes, whips, and more

That’s on top of the damage that generally happens when an infection form breaches the chest cavity

It’s unclear how Spartans would generally be infected by the flood but implicitly it doesn’t seem like the infection form could pull itself inside the Spartan’s body like it does with other hosts, at least as easily

The H2A interpretation specifically has it breaking the visor and climbing into the Spartan’s mouth

[empty bloom]

Well, thanks to Gallows, it has a pretty exposed interface.

[wanton tinsel]

ok thats kinda funny never thought ab it that way

[wanton tinsel]

im convinced that yea, its probably more capable/durable than a regular spartan, but at the end of the day the lore's treatment of infected spartans has made them seem apocalyptic when in reality, unless they were used with the same individual care that spartans were used by the unsc, they would not last very long and seem unlikely to have a lasting strategic impact

they just dont scale well, unlike intangibles the flood could steal and use indefinitely (intel, knowhow)

important commanders at risk of infection are, imo, much more dangerous than spartans

[modest marsh]

I mean, it’s not just a flood Spartan acting independently, it’s a flood Spartan augmented by whatever existing flood outbreak that was capable of overwhelming a Spartan in the first place

[wanton tinsel]

this is the best justification ive heard for the whole nuke from orbit thing, that the infection of a spartan is a symptom of an uncontainable outbreak

[modest marsh]

Also, generally speaking, Spartans are career veterans that individually would have access to a wide plethora of information, on top of the super computer that their brain is connected to

[empty bloom]

Friendly reminder that CORRUPTER is not a mandate for WMD usage. Merely an authorization.

Big difference.

[wanton tinsel]

right.

[empty bloom]

Hypothetically a Spartan could be severely unlucky then immediately gunned down by the rest of their squad. Hypothetically. Corrupter would still code but the mission directive would not have failed yet.

[wanton tinsel]

i feel like youve gotta either have the worst intel or the worst spartan skills of any spartan to get infected by the flood though lol

like, spartans are the perfect flood counter

[empty bloom]

Eh, Chief almost got infected.

[wanton tinsel]

almost

[empty bloom]

He also had zero control in not being infected. He got lucky because Cortana could do anything to stop it, fully aware if she didn't she'd be stuck in a rotting cage.

[wanton tinsel]

in a post HC war universe where the flood has been engaged and studied extensively

[vagrant ocean]

Which can be disseminated across the infestation

[wanton tinsel]

but not any more than any other long-serving special forces veteran

[modest marsh]

I think that’s mitigated by the fact that this was within hours of first contact with the flood, and thus training methods and equipment advances made to counter the flood that have been developed in the past 8 years in universe likely count for something

[wanton tinsel]

and commanders (other than miranda) dont usually get given major positions overnight

[empty bloom]

This is also true. My point's more that the Flood are more than capable of infecting even the 'best' if they're caught unaware.

[wanton tinsel]

spartans, like any soldiers, are probably only given need-to-know on a per-mission basis

[vagrant ocean]

Spartans receive additional training above standard ODST or MARSOC training.

[empty bloom]

(This is also why I think the second Flood Spartan armor should've been Chief's CE Mark V but infected, not Jorge or Rusulka)

[wanton tinsel]

thats not what we were talking about, training =/= intel

[modest marsh]

I think that nuking a rogue Spartan, flood infection or not, is probably one of the more effective ways for dealing with them? It’s just not a reasonable use of force in virtually any situation

[wanton tinsel]

accuracy might be an issue. delivering a nuclear device to the location of the spartan quickly without them either escaping underground or being outside the fireball (mjolnir protects against CBRN) seems at least a little tricky, because if it wasnt you could use any other bomb.

it seems like itd be smarter to implement a tamper-proof (or resistant) remote self destruct for anti-flood ops. mjolnir self destruct is manually activated iirc

[modest marsh]

If you could remote self destruct Mjolnir then this would be hilariously abusable

[wanton tinsel]

depends on how easy it is

you cant set off a nuke by shooting it, and launching a nuke is a whole process

[vagrant ocean]

You don’t just send one. You send several. Kinda hard to dodge 15 nukes at once.

[wanton tinsel]

why couldnt the mjolnir self destruct be controlled thru similar means?

[empty bloom]

It tries to.

[wanton tinsel]

alright macarthur lol

[empty bloom]

From the short snippet we get in the flood short stories for the two past Octobers, the flood usually manages to stop it from self-destructing, but after the gallows system pops the head of the Spartan.

[vagrant ocean]

Thank you for calling me based.

[vagrant ocean]

So it has the armor, but not the brain.

[empty bloom]

Arguably it's getting the worse option of the two.

[modest marsh]

The flood is better at cyber intrusion than the UNSC is

[wanton tinsel]

i feel like the flood being able to blow up a spartan is less dangerous than the flood infecting said spartan

sure, its a risk, but one with slightly less damning consequences than the alternative

unless you mean mid infection

which i feel is letting the flood get too far before activating the self-destruct

[modest marsh]

Mjolnir in general is obviously just meant to be self contained enough that you can’t do anything as important as delivering a self destruct command or else this would’ve been taken advantage of at one point or another by any number of threats, the flood is just notable for this

Why didn’t the grave mind blow Chief up when he was in the control room in halo 3

It’s already been established he could send him messages through his neural interface across the galaxy

[empty bloom]

The Star League Defense Force of Battletech would do better against the Covenant than the UNSC did

Just saying

:3

[wanton tinsel]

i wonder if feeding enough delusional people to the flood would cause it to adopt those delusions. could we misinform the flood into failure

[empty bloom]

No, but it'd find new ways to gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss.

[wanton tinsel]

like corrupting a LLM

faulty training data

[wanton tinsel]

you think so?

even if the people it infected fully believed the misinfo to be the truth?

[empty bloom]

The flood actually does have an ability to parse information.

[wanton tinsel]

it does, but some lies are convincing. small scale example, lets say a whole colony of forerunners were told that a shield world was located at x y z. the flood thinks its true and diverts forces to check it out, finds nothing, wastes resources. It's not a great example and it doesnt have significant ramifications, but you get the idea.

[empty bloom]

As I said, parse info.

"Huh. Weird. They all are told to tell me this. Yep, deffo nothing there."

[wanton tinsel]

all told?

they wouldnt know theyre lying to the gravemind lol

im saying totalitarian forerunner regime lies to its people regularly

as a concept ofc

misinforming the people to transitively misinform the flood

[modest marsh]

I think that the flood wouldn’t regard the individual subjective experience of each of its constituent consciences with any significance

It’s observing patterns comprised of trillions across millennia

[empty bloom]

The flood is basically the most skilled manipulator that could exist.

You aren't really gonna out-psyop the funny nihilist psyop monster.

Which... Wow. Now that I think about the Flood's actual setup, there's some very specific analogies I could make to real world issues.

[wanton tinsel]

if the flood was real smart it wouldve asymptomatically infected the whole galaxy before flipping the kill switch

the flood should play plague inc

I wonder if organic beings are vulnerable to the logic plague

could the flood convince a forerunner to breach containment eventually

[analog hatch]

Sorry to barge into the current conversation but I was watching Late Night Gaming's "evolution of" vid and had a thought: I really find it interesting how the Battle Rifle feels like a derivative of the AR, stripped back like the MA5K to account for the heavier round

its a very small detail and not at all that impactful in the universe, but I find it neat

[empty bloom]

Didact.

[analog hatch]

It makes the MA5 platform feel more futuristic, especially with its (potential) parallels to HK's OICW

[wanton tinsel]

isnt that just a popular theory

[empty bloom]

No.

[terse lava]

@analog hatch It's always the smaller bits of the halo universe that have the more enriching details. Though never really saw the battle rifle in that manner, more so just something to pair alongside the assault rifle

also no, the Didact did hit by it, whole reason he acted insane after arriving at the Greater Ark

[wanton tinsel]

gotcha

[vagrant ocean]

No it is established that his time with the Primordial allowed the Flood to infect his mind.

A living creature is just an organic ancila,

[wanton tinsel]

Yeah i knew the whole crazy because he talked to the flood thing was canon

I was not aware that it was fundamentally the same as the ai logic plague

[analog hatch]

I really only saw it after I saw the Halo Infinite MA5K

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf, the Infinite MA5K isn’t really “accurate”. It’s too long mainly because it’s a weapon model of the MA40.

The Ripsaw is actually a neat situation because it’s an MA5K Avenger model… but because it’s an MA-platform, it can technically be any MA-rifle.

[analog hatch]

I mean, the design philosophy is the same, even on the Ghosts of Onyx cover

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah but the Infinite iteration is wrong, due to the game limitations, is my point.

[analog hatch]

Oh! my apologies, I just wanted to point out a sorta utilitarian philosophy I saw in UNSC weapons

[stoic hamlet]

No no, you’re good!

Notably, though, MA5K isn’t the Misriah designation:

The Karabiner, or carbine, version of the MA5. This is the semi-official UNSC designation, and not one that Misriah uses internally.

Very common IRL, but a neat bit of trivia.

[analog hatch]

Neat little factoid, when I first learned of the MA5K, I just assumed it was like a cheaper variant of the Assault Rifle

In my opinion, it would be cool to imagine a Halo Reach where the MA5K replaces the MA37 as a middle ground between the SMG and AR

[stoic hamlet]

Lore wise they do different things.

But have a lot of overlap.

[analog hatch]

I know I knoww

I'm not particularly a gun nut but I have some knowledge

[stoic hamlet]

The MA5K fires the same cartridge and would have more or less the same ballistics.

If anything it should have been the flagship weapon of ODST, as it actually fits the role of a drop trooper.

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah the MA5K is the M4 to the MA5B/C/D’s M16. Same weapon, smaller package.

[empty bloom]

Smaller being relative, of course, it's still massive

[stoic hamlet]

She’s a big girl.

[vagrant ocean]

Obviously. A 7.62 carbine is still a Goliath compared to a 5.56

[empty bloom]

It's big even compared to real world 7.62 bullpups!

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah, I’ve seen the bullpup M14s

[heady peak]

Lore question: were there any Spartan 2s that used the Mk V (B) armor? I know they used the regular Mk V, but I only ever heard of the Spartan 3s using the (B) version

Except for Jorge

Actually, let me extend that question, did the Spartan 4s canonically use the Mk V (B) armor as well? I only know of Spartan 3s using that armor design

[vagrant ocean]

Some IVs probably use Mk V[B] as it is available for use after being upgraded to GEN3.

[stoic hamlet]

Technically it’s not upgraded to GEN3, just “upgraded”.

[gritty tiger]

From what I know, Mk IV(B) was worn by:
Owen-B096
Hazel-A304
Fred-104
Instalation-00 features this in his Mk IV video.

Mk 5(B) was worn by:
Noble team
Thom A-293
Rosenda A-344.
Fireteam Leviathan(?)
Unidentified Spartan IV's (player character, Infinite)
Grey Team

Prototypes, offshoots and similars:
Gen-2 Decimator (unknown Spartan IV's)
Gen-1 Mk VII (Naomi-010)

So yes, confirmed, 4 spartan IV's, and 5 spartan II's

[stoic hamlet]

Kevin-A282 as well.

Basically any III left standing by 2551 (obviously not Gamma who were still in training) was equipped with the V[B]

II’s wouldn’t be assigned it, though.

[gritty tiger]

Spartan IIIs, with some further neural augmentation would be able to wear most if not all suits of Mjolnir. Also, I didnt include kevin as imo he is wearing base Mk V

Fred and Grey Team are both confirmed to have worn a (b) variant at one point

[stoic hamlet]

As far as we know Kevin wore V[B]. No other III was issued the later Mark V iteration that we know of.

Considering he also fought on Reach (and seemingly lost his team there - presumably they were either Gauntlet, Red, or Echo team) and no other III we know of that fought on Reach wore the later Mark V, there’s no reason to assume he did, either.

[heady peak]

Thanks for the clarification, I at some point want to write a Halo fan fic about a Spartan II designated as 115 (because I checked and there’s no 115), and I wanted the Spartan to wear the Air assault armor

I was checking to make sure it would be able to fit into the cannon

[stoic hamlet]

Air Assault is fine, yeah. It was a Mark IV variant, though outside of Spartans, is exclusive to army airborne units.

[lean drum]

Random question. Would the Halo lore be better off if Halo 4, 5, and 6 never happened?

[storm valley]

In my opinion, nah, it expanded the lore quite a bit. It gave us things that, if it ended at Halo 3 and never continued, would've been left unanswered, like Covenant remnants, Forerunner lore, and introduced cool things like Spartan IVs and the Infinity. Can't just end a 30-year war with a handshake with a former enemy. You can't leave off like that and expect it to be supplemented by purely novels.

[stoic hamlet]

I’d say the Created were a mistake. If H5 didn’t happen, then Infinite and most modern lore can’t happen either… but IMO, that’s kind of a good thing, so…

[empty bloom]

I'll admit that I strongly enjoy the Created more than even the original OT stuff at this point. If only because of the rich perspective of Cortana's position and why.

[empty bloom]

Kinda. No. Not really. Yes.

really, it depends on what you consider 'better off'.

[storm valley]

I'm mixed on the created, I like them and an AI uprising was bound to happen with a ton of smart AI's, eventually it's going to happen but eh, they kind of screwed up thee galaxy to the point where every planet you love is either under their control, destabilized or abandoned which the desperation is cool but can the UNSC get a bit of a break? But without it we wouldn't have gotten Zeta halo, and Zeta halo is amazing and so are Spartan IV's

[empty bloom]

I think, at the end, it was an attempted swap from a struggle of survival to a struggle of control.

What is better? A gilded cage under AI or to fight for your freedom and autonomy?

Humanity was fundamentally left on different footing from the HCW. Cortana didn't hesitate to kill you, sure, but she didn't, at least prior to Infinite, want to.

I mean, is a collared life under gilded created control really surviving? Is it really living?

I think the combination of it being both anti-AI (In the term sense) and anti-authority as a direction and then getting dropped actually has more to do with (real world) events than it has to do with narrative quality.

[minor sky]

eh

Not saying there may not be a link, but backlash to 5's writing and story direction was pretty broad

[storm valley]

Although it is kind of depressing as the UNSC by the time cortana dies and the created fall apart, the UNSC have had their backs broken and knees kicked in and while they've won the Banished are now here to take the Createds place of putting them through the ringer which, I will admit the Banished are way more interesting then the Storm Covenant but I do feel they've been Worf Effected a lot to where their threat is sort of artificial.

[empty bloom]

On timing, it can be either or.

Reed left after they rejected the Created-oriented Halo Wars 2 DLCs. This was also when "AI" naming was starting to be more heavily used for LLMs, albiet fledgeling.

(Keeping in mind Reed helped with Halo Wars 2's story, which was well-received)

[empty bloom]

I actually find the Banished far less interesting.

They have very simple motivations, while the intricacies of cult-oriented philosophy can be more esoteric and ideologically driven to the point of incoherency.

Arguably, it was already the case in 4-5.

[minor sky]

It isn't implausible that Microsoft wanted them to not do a story with evil AIs, but the plotline was already disliked by everyone from Halo fans to more professional critics

[empty bloom]

On the other hand... The Banished would likely be better, in my eyes, if they more heavily emphasized the fact it is actually a collaboration of very different tribes and skeins or whatever brute packs call themselves these days.

[empty bloom]

Professional critics were not actually particularly anti-5's plot last I checked.

[minor sky]

The issue is that the Covenant in 4 and 5 barely have much going on

[empty bloom]

Eh.

I think it's one of those "It makes sense if you know the material" things.

I mean real world material, btw. Not Halo. Like, understanding cult logic and understanding broken philosophies is kind of a rosetta's stone to understanding Reclaimer era Halo.

[minor sky]

Idk, it is common sentiment beyond just Halo fans. One example is probably Raycevick's Halo 5 one year later video which covers the story in a fairly even handed way

[empty bloom]

Vis a vis Mantle of responsibility and White Man's Burden, et cetera.

[empty bloom]

How much of it is poisoned info environment versus actual objective observation

[minor sky]

(Raycevick is an actual writer/has professionally reviewed games afaik)

[empty bloom]

I'm staunchly in the camp of believing it is the former

[minor sky]

The 2nd one

[empty bloom]

As I said

I don't believe it is the latter.

[minor sky]

...have you seen his video?

[empty bloom]

Well, let's see, it's a youtube video covering a Halo topic, so, hell no.

[minor sky]

So you can't really speak to what he has to say on the topic

[empty bloom]

I can speak off of observed patterns in non-video spheres.

[minor sky]

Sure but Raycevick isn't, idk, Halofollower

[empty bloom]

Okay, so I'm just gonna nip this in the bud, I don't care.

And even if I did, experts are wrong sometimes.

[minor sky]

The dude is an actual honest to god writer and critic. If you don't care, leave it at that. But try not to judge an opinion or take when you don't actually know what they said something something cable news joke

[empty bloom]

There are clear and obvious flaws with Halo 5's writing, I'm not about to pretend I am not critical of them.

[storm valley]

Although the storm covenant was really just the covenant, again, even called it that if they wanted to go for a religious aspect the covenant is begging. They even side-lined brutes with 4-5 to background lore, which, while not the most interesting species, having them vanish after already being mishandled sucks. I do like what brutes are now; we've gotten plenty of brute lore and a new direction for their species with the Banished, which also includes elites. And their color scheme is a direct clash to the covenant with a brutalist style compared to the alien elegance of the covenant that makes them stand out.

[empty bloom]

But just saying "You really need to watch this random guy's youtube video" for Halo means about as much to me as saying you make the best stuffing for thanksgiving this side of the Mississippi.

[empty bloom]

They are actively pretending to be the Covenant, tends to happen with offshoot cults and claiming they are original religions.

[minor sky]

Raycevick's video even discusses the fact that Cortana's betrayal isn't a bad idea, just a poorly told/timed one. I was really just pulling an example of a non-Halo centric figure with some professional cred who was critical of 5's writing

[empty bloom]

Which is a position I share.

But like, you need to understand, my position of trust is very low.

Staggeringly low.

[minor sky]

I can tell

[empty bloom]

There are tattoo parlors I've seen people actively doing highly addictive drugs outside of that I'd trust to leave me tetanus-free over a Halo-sphere youtuber's opinion.

[stoic hamlet]

The issue with the Created is their implementation, rather than the idea.

They’re much more compelling as a slow burn mystery/quiet revolution instead of… what we got, where it goes against pretty well all the previously established lore about how human-AI relations were handled.

From a broader perspective, Halo being one of the rare cases in science fiction where human AI’s had a symbiotic (if mainly one sided) relationship with humans and didn’t revel was nice.

[empty bloom]

I'd trust a tongue bifurcation from Claires over it. Et cetera.

[storm valley]

After fighting the covenant for 5 games and practically 90% of the novels I’d liked they'd do it a bit differently, make them unique in their own regard while also still being the covenants offshoot.

[empty bloom]

I really can't come up with a better analogy less gratuitous.

[empty bloom]

I will argue there were clear flaws, very much in the all-take-no-give method.

AI never got a ton of pushback, but they also never seemed to really be expected to do anything but... Be digital.

[minor sky]

hence why my example was a non-Halo sphere youtuber, but I'll leave it at that

[vale mountain]

When did keyes have time to land on reach at the end of halo reach

[empty bloom]

Fair enough. I'll chalk it up to me being overly paranoid.

[vale mountain]

The pillar of autumn is fighting the covenant above reach in space in fall of reach and nowhere in that book would he have been able to land on the planet

[minor sky]

Exactly. I think they could've served well as something to come after spending enough time in the post-war Galaxy. Honestly? I think if given more time, you wouldn't even have to bring Cortana back when you can just introduce AI characters like Sloan and slowly push them into the Created plotline

[stoic hamlet]

There were, of course, but we never really see those flaws acknowledged. No AI is ever really shown protesting this, even in their internal thoughts.

Except maybe Contact Harvest, but even then, the main issue is that the Created really were, for the longest time and only very recently has it been disputed an all in or nothing faction.

There was no indication any AI really disagreed or didn’t go all in on a rampant police state where Cortana destroyed a planet and killed thousands, if not millions of people in her opening strikes. No dissent implied by these rebelling AI who supposedly partly rebelled to help their human friends.

Even Ackerson’s AI, who was apparently one of the most callous in all of ONI had deep respect for him. Are we to assume he’d just immediately turn on the man because Cortana offered him the key to immortality? What about Deep Winter? Sif, Chancey, Rebecca, etc? For the longest, longest time, that was the lore, even up right at Infinite’s release, it’s only within the last year or so we’ve been shown non-rebelling AI.

TLDR the Created as depicted are a flawed interpretation of an interesting idea, and thus, to answer the original question, yes, the universe as a whole would be better if they didn’t exist.

This all doesn’t even go into the Guardians themselves, by the way.

[vale mountain]

I know its a retcon but everything after halo reach treats fall of reach as canon

[minor sky]

You spend a few games getting to see the post-war galaxy, with us seeing the aftermath of the Covenant's fracturing, Humanity's newfound role as top-dog, establishing rampancy, and delving into the Didact + nature of the Forerunners

then you can get to the part where we see the conditions are just right for the Created to pop up

[vale mountain]

Why were they called forerunners before they foreran

What were they planning on forerunning

[empty bloom]

They were just that good

[empty bloom]

I feel like they should've pushed more of the UEG and Thel becoming more cozy on his whole "Concert of Worlds" idea.

[minor sky]

I hate to say "read the books" but it's litterally in the opening chapters of Cryptum

[minor sky]

Right

[empty bloom]

Because if there's one thing I'm staunch about, it's that Thel was legitimately cooking with that plan. The guy knew what he was on about. He understood the assignment.

[minor sky]

I occasionally wonder if the post-Halo 3 stuff should've just been about Thel

Idk if I like the idea enough to genuinely consider it as an alternative, but it has crossed my mind more than a few times

I think it was a majorly missed opportunity not to have Jul's Covenant gain more power over the course of the Reclaimer trilogy saga. Have them start as a fringe group that starts to command more power once their leader gets access to enough Forerunner tech to make himself into a symbol of divine providence and/or rightous vengence against whoever

[empty bloom]

I mean I'm of the opinion that they really should've gone with the God of War style approach. Really focus on the enduring pain after the HCW while retaining all the advancements of IVs and such.

[minor sky]

I may have brought this up once, but Alpha-Nine would've been the perfect POV characters to introduce players to the post-war setting

[empty bloom]

But that results in oldheads complaining that "New Kratos is too sappy, he needs to be more of a jerk" type crap.

[minor sky]

I am not a GoW fan on account of not owning a Playstation (or powerful enough computer), but "New Kratos" is voiced by Christopher Judge aka Teal'c from Stargate SG-1

And therefore he is above critque

Amazon for the love of god let Brad Wright and Robert C. Cooper bring back Stargate

Sorry, off topic

[minor sky]

This sounds like people who complain about Chief's humanity being explored in Halo 4

[empty bloom]

The newer God of War makes an extreme emphasis on positive masculinity and the goals and humanity of horrific acts done for good causes, the nature meaning more than form.

[minor sky]

The "big green tank" angle worked for Bungie's games, but 343i wanting to finally look into who Chief was (in a game) was a natural next step to take the series

[empty bloom]

Yeah.

That's honestly why I tend to view reclaimer era Halo as being more "ahead of the curve to their own detriment" tbh.

[minor sky]

Anyway I gotta go to sleep.

[stoic hamlet]

He still definitely is a jerk, though, lol.

He’s just not a [word I can’t say]

But yeah.

Interesting full circle about the Teal’c situation. A friend of mine based his 40K Space Wolf OC partly on Teal’c, and partly on Worf, and I bought and watched him play through the first rebooted GoW when it released on PC.

His Space Wolf OC also uses a frost axe and shield, and also has a prominent part of his storyline being him mellowing out via raising children. So there were a lot of “yeah, yeah that’s [his character]!”

[storm valley]

How do y'all feel about hunters in the dark?

Is it any good?

[orchid kettle]

It sure is a book that exists

[carmine sleet]

It's kinda wild to me the guy who wrote it was the same guy who came up with Spider-Man 2099

[modest marsh]

It would’ve worked better as a 5 issue comic

There are some parts where you clearly expect an accompanying visual

[obsidian thistle]

Oh yea Halopedia turned 21 the other day. Kinda got super busy with everything aha

Woop

[analog hatch]

Crazy

[strange pumice]

Bro, I'm older than Halopedia🥲
By the way, always wanted to ask
@obsidian thistle does Halopedia have information about Mark 7 undersuit?
Always wanted to look, but I can't find it

[obsidian thistle]

Not to my understanding

We have barely any "lore" on it

[modest marsh]

As far as I’m aware the most in depth information we have is the official cosplay guide which doesn’t say much

[empty bloom]

The undersuit is made of undersuit

[modest marsh]

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/official-cosplay-guide-mark-vii

[obsidian thistle]

Hey I'm 29. Way older than it lol

[storm valley]

But is it worth reading? I picked it up the other day after some recommendations, but is it really good or just okay?

[obsidian thistle]

I recommend it

If you want some prelude to Halo Wars 2 and some "minor" Halo Infinite stuff

Its interesting

But

Important

No

Its very much not important

[stoic hamlet]

I’d say all Halo books are worth a read if only because one person’s disliked book might be another’s joy.

You don’t know unless you read it first yourself.

[analog hatch]

It’s older than me

[obsidian thistle]

Now I feel old

[stoic hamlet]

Wait, what’s older than you?

[obsidian thistle]

Halopedia

[stoic hamlet]

Oh…

[obsidian thistle]

I presume

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah, I’ll join you on that “I feel old” claim, heh

[obsidian thistle]

Halopedia is from a different era of the net

It even predates Wookieepedia

As Wook was inspired by it

[stoic hamlet]

I did know that.

[carmine sleet]

I didn't, so that's news to me

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah it’s a fun factoid.

Like the creation of the URF.

[carmine sleet]

That one I did know

[vagrant ocean]

I remember watching the Halo 2 announcement trailer AND the E3 demo as a kid.

[wanton tinsel]

Afaik the autumn landed for repairs and a refit to prep for its next mission (red flag or going to the forerunner coordinates, i dont reemember). But yeah, a retcon nonetheless

[carmine sleet]

Red Flag was the mission it was going to go on before the Covenant invaded

[empty bloom]

Silent Storm my beloathed.

[vagrant ocean]

Honestly I wouldn’t mind more books like Halsey’s journal.

[stoic hamlet]

I want some Imperial Armour books, man.

[warm sparrow]

I have an odd question. Is the Arbiter old? Like by Sangheili standards bc I know he’s 70 something in human years, but he always came off to me to be around the same age as Chief

[glass pine]

i think sangheili lifespan is 200 years or something

[modest marsh]

We probably don’t know the exact biological limits of any species because they’re still far from fully harnessing the capabilities of life extending medical technology

Dovo Nesto for instance is older than the covenant because he has a forerunner machine that keeps him young and healthy

[orchid kettle]

I was honestly waiting for it to be exposed that Dovo was just lying about that

And Severan is just real bad at spotting the difference when San Shyuum are all wrinkly and crusty anyway

[modest marsh]

lol

[orchid kettle]

Especially when Severan, as the child of Tartarus, is probably not that old himself

Twenty or thirty years probably doesn't mean much when San Shyuum live for seemingly hundreds of years

[vagrant ocean]

Jul ‘Mdama was considered to be in his prime at the age of 69, and Thel ‘Vadam was considered to be an accomplished young man when he became Supreme Commander at his 40d

[minor sky]

Thats really cool

[empty bloom]

UNSC Army Armor

[worn coral]

I'd where to put this but do any of you guys remember this quote. I know who said it I'm just curious if anyone else knows. "I... have beaten fleets of THOUSANDS! Consumed a galaxy of flesh and mind and bone!"

[empty bloom]

Deffo Thel Vadam.

He's a pretty hungry boy

[worn coral]

If I'm correct the quote is from the gravemind

One of the arbiters quote I remember is "Were it so Easy"

[empty bloom]

Nah, you're right, it was definetly Foehammer

[unique rune]

famous guy who has beaten fleets of thousand Jonas the kebab guy

[empty bloom]

Entire boats of whiskey flights and kebab buffets.

[unique rune]

I remember when he said "it's kebabing time" and kebabed all over all of the Covenant

[modest marsh]

keep it clean

[unique rune]

he had napkins it's fine

[glass walrus]

Do spartan poop? Like its a really serious question this one. In all the games we only see spartan fighting for canonically hours.

[modest marsh]

yes but probably less often than normal people have to

they're tubed up

[empty bloom]

I figure IVs don't even actually need to frequently utilize that part of their anatomy due to the intenstinal bioreactor.

Anything that can't be digested is likely handled by that.

[vagrant ocean]

Bro stopped a car with a cleaver.

[hushed jetty]

I hope so, because if not it would be the opposite. On mission they probably need to eat 10,000 calories

[lean drum]

Is there a clear ratio or a reasonable assumption of how much humanity is outnumbered by the Covenant?

It seems like they are outnumbered by 1:100

[glass walrus]

Is earth still divided in nations by the time human covenant war ends?

Cause the UNSC is only an army in the end. Its not a nation

[lean drum]

That’s a good question. I would like to know as well. Would bet they let go of almost all their differences while they were in survival mode of being invaded.

[stoic hamlet]

Yes. Earth has multiple nations.

We know that Korea has unified.

North America is a super-nation, or at least in a situation akin to the modern EU. Canada is apparently now a republic (good luck with that IRL, lol) and the US has dissolved.

Africa has mostly unified into larger states, like the East African Protectorate.

[modest marsh]

The UNSC is the military arm of the unified earth goverment which was formed by the UN in the late 22nd century

[modest marsh]

outnumbered in what sense? total population of its member species? military forces? or specifically just those that were deployed to attack human colonies?

[lean drum]

Total population of its member species and the military forces. Those two things.

[modest marsh]

yeah we have no clue for the covenant, we can only infer its really really big

humanity has a relatively modest population of roughly 40 billion at its peak

[lean drum]

Is there even a rough draft estimate of the population of the Covenant?

[modest marsh]

no

[lean drum]

Oh damn

Fair enough

[modest marsh]

we know the population of their homeworlds

thats about it

[lean drum]

Interesting! So getting the population of the home worlds could help to make estimates

[modest marsh]

the issue is we dont have any insight as to how many colonies they managed to establish

[lean drum]

Ah damn

So they could outnumber humanity 1:100 or just 1:10 then

Could just be twice the amount, ten times, or a 100 times

[modest marsh]

part of the issue is that on paper, the sangheili empire should be like, magnitudes bigger than it is ever shown to be

theyve been space faring since before ~1000BCE

humanity manages to establish a vast network of 800 colonies and outposts across a relatively small <100ly radii from earth using comparatively slow FTL capabilities and smaller ships on average

and they dont really start until 2362

so essentially elites shouldve had an over 3000 year head start over humans, most of which was spent as part of the covenant hegemony wherein they would have access to vastly superior technology than humanity had up until very recently in setting

[wispy pewter]

But after the covenant fell they couldnt even maintain their own ships or farm lol

[modest marsh]

imagine if all digital services collapsed overnight

we would be in a similar situation

civilization-wide infrastructure is dependent on our current technological amenities that if stripped away would leave us flatfooted in a way thats hard to overstate

[wispy pewter]

the thing is the sangheli did have the technology available to them. They just couldnt run it at all

[unique rune]

that
doesn’t change anything about their point?

if you yeeted every single person in the farming industry off the Earth right now we’d technically have access to all their equipment and resources but getting it back up and running would take time because most people not involved in agriculture do not know a whole lot about it

[stoic hamlet]

Farming in general is a generational thing, as well.

A lot of jobs are.

It’s all passed down knowledge

[wicked nimbus]

they didnt know how to repair after engineers left

because they all learnt warrior ways and not engineering stuff

[wispy pewter]

ever wonder how klingons build ships

turns out they have engineers

I guess the SoS doesnt have that issue anymore

[modest marsh]

It’s not that elites stopped having technically skilled workers the second that they joined the Covenant, it’s that they became reliant on a system where the vast majority of civil infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities was ran by a select few so most of the able bodied workforce could focus on other things, ie most males serving in the military

There was always Sangheili artisans and such, but on such a reduced scale compared to what was needed to maintain such a large economy

[wispy pewter]

Thel doing his best

[modest marsh]

To use a modern example, if the US completely stopped importing clothes, our manufacturing capabilities wouldn’t be able to keep up with the demand because of the lack of existing skilled labor and facilities required to keep up with the demand of a population of 340 million even if in an earlier period we were almost entirely self sufficient in that regard

Even still, there are still tailors or people who know how to sew

There’s also the problem of the covenant era technology relying on tooling and equipment that is otherwise wasteful or inefficient to reproduce using the means available to the ex covenant races, which is why a lot of them are instead trying to use pre-covenant/early covenant technology that, while more primitive, is more feasible to rely on in the short term

[empty bloom]

The American "Farmer" is usually more a megacorp than a mom and pop deal. The former likes to pretend to be the latter for the purposes of electoral sympathy.

The "Mom and Pop" farmer status in America isn't dead but it's nearly there.

[modest marsh]

Well, it’s generational insofar as the land ownership tends to stay within the family, but the operation is largely entangled in corporate hands

(That being said farm land is increasingly being bought up by private equity since it’s a stable asset)

[empty bloom]

More talk on this and it's politics land.

Lmao.

Well, Political and Economics, and I broke that seal first

Cause, y'know, I mentioned electoral sympathy

Anyways

[vagrant ocean]

Cheesebugeres

[modest marsh]

Liang-Dortman Corporation and Aquarius should buy up a few plots of farm land on sanghelios tbh

[lean drum]

Is Master Chief officially apart of the UNSC Navy?

[modest marsh]

I think you meant UNSC navy, but yes

All Spartans before IVs were by default

[lean drum]

Ah! Thank you. I am new to Halo. Good to know.

[modest marsh]

Yeah, to be specific, Bungie just wanted a rank that sounded cool so they went with Master Chief, so in the lore the Spartan programs were justified as being a navy program

[lean drum]

Hell yea! Thats so cool! John 117 is making the Navy look good.

ODST are part of the Marines aren’t they?

Like a special operation of the Marines.

[modest marsh]

They’re considered marines, yes

[lean drum]

Sweetness. Thank you for answer my questions.

https://tenor.com/view/odst-halo-3-halo-3-odst-gif-11219785892316598476

Oh. It won’t let me send gifs.

[vagrant ocean]

Yes. Under Naval Code 45812 John-117 and the other 74 Spartan-II candidates were conscripted into the UNSCDF Navy in 2517.

[lean drum]

Hell yea! Spartans are Navy. I like that.

[loud fjord]

Has the Dazreme appeared at all since their introduction? I've been skimming sites, but can't find a lick of them outside the encyclopedia

[stoic hamlet]

And John’s proud of that fact:

He waited for an explosion to tear through the engine room, or for plasma to envelop him. He scanned the engine room for any signs of Grunts or Elites, and then exhaled, and stared into the face of death for the countless time.
He had always been a hairsbreadth from death. John wasn't a fatalist, merely a realist. He didn't welcome the end; he knew, though, that he had done his best, fought and won so many times for his team, the Navy, and the human race . . . it made moments like this tolerable. They were, ironically, the most peaceful times in his life.

• Halo First Strike, chapter 11

[minor sky]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/K3y3Wr

Best I can give you is this redesign their original designer created

[loud fjord]

That's neat they're not sealites

[dusk jetty]

Better tbh, more elegant

[vagrant ocean]

No

[vagrant ocean]

Only the IIs, as of 2560 both the IIIs and IVs are Spartan Ops

[empty bloom]

I do think there should've been more of a split among the IIs for that.

[stoic hamlet]

Not all III’s are Spartan Branch.

Though, in truth, it doesn’t really mean much, in principle.

But IMO they all should have stuck as Navy.

[empty bloom]

I kinda wish we had that thing's left pauldron.

[minor sky]

Yeah, it looks cool

I also like the tweeks done to the mouth and the brighter colors

[glass pine]

im curious about the flood's origins

wait no, i misremembered

[wispy pewter]

When it rains too much or when a natural disaster occurs, a flood happens

[glass pine]

thx

[karmic gulch]

So how old would my Gamma be in the current events in the timeline?

[hushed jetty]

I can’t remember the exact age range, but the training started at 2545, with the class of 6-8 year olds

[stoic hamlet]

4-6 year olds.

@karmic gulch depending on their DOB, anywhere from 18-21.

[karmic gulch]

thats super young

[stoic hamlet]

It’s simple enough math, though obviously hard to be exact due to stuff like specific dates.

[hushed jetty]

I was thinking 4-6 but then I was thinking that there’s no way a 4 year old is capable of any training at all

[stoic hamlet]

These aren’t your typical 4-6 year olds, tbf.

We know they had quite a few tests, both with regards to augmentation compatibility, and aptitude before their recruitment/conscription.

[hushed jetty]

Carter would be 40

[stoic hamlet]

Carter and Hazel are pretty insane outliers, among all III’s. But they’re Alpha Company, so irrelevant for the discussion.

[karmic gulch]

tbf they'd be pretty driven as well right?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

[karmic gulch]

Since they wanted revenge for their families, right?

[stoic hamlet]

It’s explicitly a marker Kurt looked for.

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[stoic hamlet]

and then, we see with Saber that, (possibly because of, but also possibly without) their augmentations also seem to increase their intelligence and ability to retain information.

[hushed jetty]

Their brain would need to be enhanced to match their suits and bodies

I think, like, the best athletes still only have 250ms of reaction time, and it’s basically capped by brain function

[stoic hamlet]

But yeah, chronologically Gammas would be young, biologically due to Cryo they’d be younger.

Anywhere from early-mid teens, or possibly even still looking like preteens, depending on Cryo-time.

[modest marsh]

https://cylix.guide/item/002-001-olympus-b0d066a9

All Spartans have a photographic memory, for good and ill.

[lean drum]

Daaaaaaaang. Photographic memory as well. Spartans are so badass. Honestly imagine if the UNSC were able to mass produce them? Like imagine 100,000 Spartans.

100,000 Spartans could kill millions upon millions of covenant.

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, Spartan-IVs are the “mass produced” version

Even with the advancements made, Spartans are extremely expensive to produce,

[vagrant ocean]

There’s over 500+ Spartan-IVs, the most of any generation at one time.

[royal relic]

Even without MJOLNIR they should be pretty expensive all things considered

[vagrant ocean]

The chemicals and surgeries alone prolly cost hundreds of millions if not billions of credits.

[royal relic]

Yeah

[vagrant ocean]

Not to mention the cost of training and rehabilitation

Even if they were only equipped with SPI/MIRAGE or ORCUS it’d be costly.

[royal relic]

I don't remember if III has invasive surgeries in level of II but without the surgeries, just the drugs must be particular and dosed specifically to each candidate which implies a LOT of background work

[stoic hamlet]

We know SPI is absurdly costly anyways.

They only ever made 2,000 suits, total.

It’s cheap… but only compared to MJOLNIR.

Which is ludicrously expensive.

[royal relic]

I mean, the common "high end" armor for human around the time would be what, ODST armor?

[vagrant ocean]

Pretty much, but that’s just standard issue “high end”

I’m sure there’s better more expensive options on the market

[royal relic]

And those doesn't get nearly anywhere close to SPI performance wise

So eeehhh

I say the price is worth it

Ish

[vagrant ocean]

Keep in mind the original prototypes for the IVs were prolly more expensive due to it being meant to make MJÖLNIR unnecessary

[royal relic]

I honestly can't believe it even worked

[vagrant ocean]

It worked in the sense it had A survivor

[royal relic]

Like sure it's only one person

[vagrant ocean]

That’s a worse failure rate than ORION.

[royal relic]

But just talking from the perspective of MJOLNIR outer shell made from titanium alloy of sorts and say you can augment a human to have a skin that is ballistically near equivalent to that is insane

[vagrant ocean]

It’s why Ilsa is such a threat right now. She went through the prototype procedure AND has GEN3.

[royal relic]

Also sure make human be able to do EVA without MJOLNIR/other EVA rated armor

Like what are we augmenting here

A bloody Kryptonian?

Next you're going to say that they fly now

[carmine sleet]

There is plenty of non-Mjolnir armour which can be used in EVA operations

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, the original intent of ORION was to enhance humanity for space exploration and colonization

[vagrant ocean]

We’re talking about how Ilsa can briefly survive the vacuum of space.

[carmine sleet]

Ah

[vagrant ocean]

Which shows how much of a threat she is.

I hope we have a game where we fight her and other Janissaries.

It’d be sick

I guess that’s what the Juggernaut game mode in Infinite is supposed to be

[stoic hamlet]

So can the III’s apparently. Jun manages to, and Musa attributes it to his III augmentations.

[modest marsh]

We don’t actually know what would happen if you shot Zane with a gun other than it would probably do less damage than it would to another Spartan because she apparently has subdermal armor

[gloomy ocean]

so after reading all the books i came to the realization chief really isnt the best spartan hes just good at getting by

[vagrant ocean]

He’s more a jack of all trades. He’s also an amazing leader

[gloomy ocean]

he almost dies multiple times which is really humanizing

even super soldiers can get caught out

[lament karma]

I haven’t read up on EVERYTHING Jun was in but was that the space elevator he climbed up?

[carmine sleet]

That was one of the possible stories floated around for how he got off Reach I recall

[sonic lagoon]

Some robots in the Halo 5 concept art showed quadruped Insurrectionist robots. I understand these were just concept images but do we know what weapons they intended these robots to have? Would it have been bullets, lasers, electrical, plasma, etc?

[versed salmon]

is it true the next HI season is the last for the game

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

But that’s not really lore.

[modest marsh]

As far as we know they were just industrial robots that weren’t necessarily weaponized

[obsidian thistle]

Kinda a shame they were added this late. Would have been great to make them the AI we face in the Firing range + online

[vagrant ocean]

Last major content update

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

[frigid rock]

Guess it was really just halo finite, boy that was a quick 10 years of halo! /s

[sonic lagoon]

Oh ok, so likely they would just have melee, maybe some welding attack, and possibly so electrical attack? Maybe even a nail gun.

[empty bloom]

What's this have to do with lore

Anyways that robot head is pretty cool

Wonder if it'll be canon at all.

[frigid rock]

The lack thereof actually

[modest marsh]

Kobold: Models from the KOBOLD combat drone series are interoperable with most GEN2 Mjolnir armor cores through specialized jockey frames. This armor can be outfitted with a tactical chassis for autonomous combat or operated remotely via telepresence.

Robo Spartans

[sonic lagoon]

Like drones kinda.

[sonic lagoon]

These are.

[wispy pewter]

they say 10 years because thats how long it takes for the next main title to release

[empty bloom]

Can't wait for this amazing technology to never be used ever again

[modest marsh]

I mean this is transparently something they came up for multiplayer bots and just never used it

Also maybe Iratus infection mode

[stoic root]

I understood that reference

[crimson oak]

Was offensive bias really dumbed down like “dumb AI” in UNSC terms and did that affect its intellectual or strategic abilities as well?

[unique rune]

it was still capable enough to evenly match Mendicant Bias so I can’t imagine whatever restrictions were placed on it were that limiting

[crimson oak]

In what sense?

[unique rune]

I mean, we don’t really know and I doubt 343/HS will ever explicitly detail what exactly was different about Offensive Bias

all we do know is that Offensive Bias was able to hold off Mendicant Bias long enough for the Halo Array to fire so I don’t think its strategic capabilities were meaningfully impaired by its differences from Mendicant

[lean drum]

Is Halo 4, 5, and 6 officially canon and always will be? I am new. Sorry if the question is silly.

[empty bloom]

As far as we know, yes.

In the future? Depends on if they want to do something monumentally stupid and decanonize them.

If yes, they want to do something stupid, then yes, those are decanonized. If no, and it currently still seems to be no, then no.*

[wispy pewter]

why would it not be

[empty bloom]

*It being a stupid plan is a certified Trenchbird opinion and does not reflect on the reality of Microsoft corporate decisions a'la Disney and their poor planning that still paid off with Star Wars.

Because I assure you, that sort of decision is one I'd expect out of Microsoft.

[wispy pewter]

flint and steel

[modest marsh]

Who determines what is “canon” for all intents and purposes is the current ip holder because they’re who decides what stories get told in an official capacity

Canon is kind of a made up concept to begin with but it’s most useful when trying to understand how stories connect

[sonic lagoon]

Did Orion Project Spartans wear helmets in combat?

Spartan 1s

[modest marsh]

As in, their own unique helmets?

Because for all intents and purposes they were CMA/UNSC personnel

From an organizational standpoint they were largely outfitted the same as everyone else

There was a powered exoskeleton codeveloped alongside Orion but it never saw widespread adoption https://www.halopedia.org/ORION_armor

[sonic lagoon]

Helmets in general, would they wear ODST helmets?

[modest marsh]

It’s a little awkward timeline wise because the odst helmet that we recognize got its start as MJOLNIR prototype

[modest marsh]

Anyways, if you want to get into the nitty gritty, you can just infer that they likely wore something you’d typically associate with the UNSC in general anyways, including just basic marine helmets

With some exception they may have also been issued specialized and experimental gear like the Orion suit, or prototypes for what would become the standard ODST style gear

[stoic hamlet]

It’s alresdy mentioned in canon text from prior seasons. A helmet attachment and a pair of gloves.

[stoic hamlet]

It never saw adoption really period, at least as an actuwl suit used by ORION’s.

S-III’s might’ve used it, as an SPI variant, but otherwise yeah, it never was really used except as prototypes.

[modest marsh]

Field-tested during Operation: KALEIDOSCOPE

[hushed jetty]

ODST armour is actually fairly strong for how cheap it is. An Orion with ODST protection wouldn’t be too far off Mark IV

[modest marsh]

It may have just been one suit for all we know but it’s ambiguous

[stoic hamlet]

Ah true.

I know the legs were tested on Mars.

[storm valley]

Alright
just read battle for the blood moon part - 2

Did they just let, a banished AI with potentially thousands upon thousands of UNSC data including files and protocols get to the head of a banished spartan, right after, the created uprising. And then leave.

What, why would they do that?

[stoic hamlet]

I’m still not… entirely sure if I like it being like, “real”, tbh.

[modest marsh]

This refers to the forearms in the MCC version but like, I doubt it was literally just the forearms

[hushed jetty]

It does seem very advanced for the timeframe. And then there’s Orcus which was based off of CMA troopers from hundreds of years ago. I’m not sure if that just means ascetically or if they were in semi powered armour

[vagrant ocean]

Forearms and greaves but apparently ORION IIC did see very limited clandestine service during the HCW

[modest marsh]

specifically in the context of orions using it

[vagrant ocean]

Just the greaves and gauntlets.

[modest marsh]

We know for a fact that they were used but my point is that I think it’s unlikely that those components would be used entirely on their own

It seems more likely to me the intent is that the entire exoskeleton was issued in a limited capacity

[vagrant ocean]

I still firmly believe that the MENACHITE helmet was built using data from the ORION armor.

[sonic lagoon]

I know halo doesn’t usually have this but was there ever an explicitly cited gang war in the halo universe? We have humans, yonhet, the pirates, etc. Curious if the books or tv shows have anything like that. We’ve had the Mombasa police engage with the Rookie as one officer did, then there was that riot where the top cop dude got torn apart by protesters.

[vagrant ocean]

Well, we do have armor and VISR load outs that specialize in the recognition of underground symbols, and Venezia is a HUGE hub of organized crime.

We also have one chronicle that shows an organized crime syndicate led by a Yonhet that specializes in the capture and trafficking of children belonging to debtors to be used as the templates for Janissaries.

[coarse hamlet]

I neeeeeeed to know if whoever named them janissaries was aware of the metatextual implications of naming them that.

[wanton tinsel]

Was dare’s recon helmet the same as a mjolnir recon helmet, or are the materials different because i always imagined every piece of mjolnir to be very, very heavy. The usual issues with unaug’d humans wearing mjolnir wouldnt apply to a helmet on its own though

I would assume different materials, with the same going for mjolnir odst vs regular odst

[empty bloom]

The materials wouldbe different past the first outer layers that provided stealth.

A MJOLNIR variant of the same helmet as a normal troop is nearly double the weight at least.

[modest marsh]

It’s weird, because implicitly some helmets are just straight up stuff that’s used by non-Spartans with minimal if any modifications

At any rate, we’ve seen normal people pick up and manipulate Spartan helmets without too much trouble

[wispy pewter]

I dont think augmentations increased their head sizes

[modest marsh]

It doesn’t but the fit on mjolnir helmets is really “loose” when you account for the volume it takes up

The head looks really small inside of it

Typical modern day ballistic-grade helmets are anywhere between 1-3kg, which isn’t that heavy, although that’s a different story when you’re expected to wear it for extended periods of time

[wispy pewter]

if UNSC helmets are entirely made of titanium or ceramic its gonna be heavier since they are full cover

[modest marsh]

That depends on how thin or thick it is, it could just be lined with a thin layer of either while being mostly textile underneath

It’s not considered conventional wisdom to make your outer most layer of armor a hard shell because it’s more likely to cause shrapnel to deflect rather than being caught which can result in spalling injuries

But, well, it’s sci-fi, so you gotta make everything a futuristic alloy or composite

[wispy pewter]

Halo stuck with Titanium instead of some random scifi name like Indestructiblenium

[modest marsh]

It’s really just titanium in name only

That is to say, sometimes it’s clearly just a metal, but others it’s more characteristic of an advanced plastic

The lore amended this by essentially saying that Ti-A broadly refers to a category of materials that use titanium nanotube-reinforcement rather than strictly plates of alloyed metal

GEN2 armor for instance is still considered made of titanium, but a good chunk of its volume is likely made up of polymer that’s simply been fortified with titanium on the molecular level

[vagrant ocean]

Que

[lament karma]

Well maybe not a gang WAR but I could’ve sworn there was a Ferret book where they infiltrated some sort of crime family

[lament karma]

Superstrongmetallium

[royal relic]

Basically carbotanium lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbotanium

[loud fjord]

Spartinium

[lament karma]

Mjolnirium

[vagrant ocean]

Actually it’s Halseyum

[empty bloom]

@spark pivot
Looking further into it on the composition process-composed essences are stored in the Composer's Abyss until they can be implanted in what is literally called a Knight Shell as per Halo Escalation Issue 8 and the 2022 Encyclopedia (Pg322)

[spark pivot]

this is indeed as I remember from reading the encyclopedia

[empty bloom]

But like that entire argument started because I floated the possibility that Knight Hulls predated the actual composition process lmao

The guy argued up and down that no, no, composed essences directly get turned into Knight Hulls

[spark pivot]

sounds about right

[empty bloom]

I'm actually mildly annoyed about the goalpost move made there lmao

[spark pivot]

ik hulls in some shape or form 100% predate the war, but that hull specifically ig not

this is also ignoring the fact that said hull has like 50 variations (and probably more we don't see)

[empty bloom]

I mean the concept, if nothing else, does.

Because isn't that a whole thing with the War Sphinxes?

Where they basically pseudo-compose part of your mind or whatever to work better?

[spark pivot]

I don't think that was how it works, but I never looked much into them

[empty bloom]

"War sphinxes were programmed to contain samples of their wearer's mental patterns and personalities before they were killed in battle. These preserved personalities were less complete than Durances, but could still be studied by a commander to gain useful information. The Didact kept the final impressions of his children, who were killed in battle, within their war sphinxes."

[spark pivot]

I remember it basically being a very fancy combat skin but it flies in essence

so it basically just like copies it

[empty bloom]

And a Durance is what Composed essences for Knights are put in before being put into a Knight Hull if they aren't put in directly.

[empty bloom]

So uh

Funny thing someone noticed about the new armor in the new update, the Halo 5 Arbiter themed armor

"First Vanguard: Though unlikely, a Spartan adopted into a Sangheili clan may rise to the rank of Kaidon—and become First Vanguard of their lands in times of war. This armor is cast with soil from the Kaidon’s lands, as a reminder of their sacred duty."

So apparently this means a Spartan, any Spartan, male or female or otherwise, has more potential upwards social and cultural mobility than a Sangheili woman.

@stoic hamlet

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah, we were discussing this on Halopedia, and most of our assumption is that this is some sort of like, potential thing, but not something that’s ever going to see fruition, at least in-setting for a long, long time.

[empty bloom]

Still, not uh, the best writing, methinks.

But then I don't think the armor is actually going to be legitimately considered canon.

[stoic hamlet]

Considering the UNSC doesn’t detach Spartans, the overall security and loyalty issues, and etc, I can’t see it ever being done.

This of course ignores the Sangheili aspects as well.

[empty bloom]

I schee.

[stoic hamlet]

Overall, the Sangheili armours aside from I guess Helioskrill are likely in a sort of dubious canon.

They exist, I assume, but they don’t necessarily “exist”.

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, I think they’re all canon as designs and even prototypes, but whether or not they’re used is dubious.

[stoic hamlet]

The Kaidon one can’t be used, per its own lore.

[lean drum]

Was the Covenant Army a better war machine having Elites or Brutes as their Leadership?

[vagrant ocean]

Elites. The Brutes were for the most part terrible tacticians. People like Atriox are the exception not the rule.

[lean drum]

Hell yea. It was such a good move for humanity when the Prophets stabbed the Elites in the back and replaced them with Brutes.

[lean drum]

Plus it seems Elites had a sense of honor and morality that the Brutes just didn’t have. Less likely to betray people they are aligned to.

[stoic hamlet]

eeeeehhhhh

Honour is subjective.

They still killed men, women and children in the billions.

[lean drum]

Fair enough. Would you say the average Elite is more moral than the average Brute?

[stoic hamlet]

Moral by what metric?

More moral when compared to the 21st century western society? No.

[lean drum]

Less likely to betray you. If you were a Prophet or a leader in the Covenant military. Would you trust Elites or Brutes more to get a job done or to not betray you?

[stoic hamlet]

Both species have a culture of civil war and feudal assassinations and in-fighting built into their very existence.

If anything I’d trust the Jiralhanae to not betray me over the Sangheili.

[lean drum]

Interesting! Why the Brutes over the Elites? Is it something to do with their culture, behavior, or history that makes them less prone to backstabbing?

Don’t worry. I won’t try to debate ya! Just want your opinion is all.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s their species wide difficulty to have long term goals.

[lament karma]

Dang they really respect us Demons

[hushed jetty]

I honestly wouldn’t put much merit into the item description. It feels like just the best set of words they could fit into it. Although they could have gone with a non canon approach

[ionic tiger]

Given how it even says such a thing is unlikely, I wouldn’t put much stock into it either. However, it could easily be refined. I’d change it to suggest a Spartan could serve as an “acting” Kaidon or representative for a clan’s Kaidon in the even said leader is incapacitated and/or a new leader from within the clan is unable to be chosen.

I’d specify that it would be a temporary thing given only to a Kaidon’s most trusted be they Sangheili or human or whatever.

[unique rune]

If I had to guess it’d be because Jiralhanae society is much more straightforwardly “might makes right” and the transfer of power typically happens by challenging whoever is currently on top. Less scheming than you’d get with Sangheili society.

[serene echo]

I was today years old when my dumb brain made the connection that the Didact isn’t meant to be some freaky mutant and 343 actually has the forerunners as a different species from humanity

Idk how I didn’t realize this before

But uh…pardon me what

[vagrant ocean]

Bro is 13 years behind

[serene echo]

I AM

[vagrant ocean]

Where were you bro?

[serene echo]

Well I only started playing the games for the Reach PC release

And I’ve never actually beaten a 343 era game

Although I’ve beaten every Bungie era game

[serene echo]

This isn’t actually quite true, I beat Halo Wars 2

I’m working on Halo 4 and 5 rn and I slowly pieced together than 343 just…randomly said the Forerunners aren’t human

Why?

It makes the lore retroactively less interesting

I just…don’t understand lol

Now my brain is broken

[bronze prawn]

can a composed person be uncomposed into an organic body

not just into prometheans

[modest marsh]

In the Forerunners' quest for transcendence, the Composer had been intended to bridge the organic and digital realms. It would have made us immortal. But its results soured. The stored personalities fragmented, and our attempts to return them to biological states created only abominations.

Librarian’s explanation in halo 4

From like, a broader story perspective, I think the obvious thing is that they don’t want functional immortality to be achievable since it would trivialize certain aspects of the setting