lore-and-universe

[modest marsh]

Right but idt that would matter in a singleplayer campaign

[orchid kettle]

There a comic featuring Blue Team where they get new suits that each have unique powers

[spark pivot]

Ah

I assume the abilities are geared towards their skillsets?

[modest marsh]

Well, they overlapped a bit

[orchid kettle]

Chief is the avatar

He could use all four socket abilities

or however many classes they were planning on

[karmic gulch]

Would morrigan be good for this skill set?

[modest marsh]

Going off the field Manual, they were planning 4 “classes” but you’d be able to equip multiple different abilities within that archetype

Defensive, disruptive, offensive, supportive

[orchid kettle]

but when the world needed him most, he vanished

[spark pivot]

Man just do your own research and decide for yourself

[karmic gulch]

Ok

[empty bloom]

I feel like Chief would've been the one with defensive abilities.

[spark pivot]

It won't be your OC if you have everyone else decide how it is for you

[modest marsh]

Spartans in this role are given additional training in the art of combat engineering and the use of special equipment, such as portable shield generators, Forerunner constructor beams, and structural hard light emitters.

[karmic gulch]

Imma use infractor

[orchid kettle]

I do kinda like the idea of characters having unique equipment/abilities in a team but in something like Halo it can feel a bit silly depending on said ability

like if active camo or jetpacks are so useful, why limit them to one guy per team

[empty bloom]

Arbitrary sci-fi restrictions

[orchid kettle]

I kinda liked the missile pod mounted on the back featured in that leaked proof of concept video

I think there it makes sense why you perhaps wouldn't want everybody to be strapped down with that extra weight or how you wouldn't want it in more delicate situations

[modest marsh]

I remember playing Space Marine 2 and you get to the part where they let you go ham with the assault pack after your squad borrows them for just this part and it’s easily the strongest you’ll be in the game + a cutscene showing how useful it is

And then they try to justify why you can’t use it anymore by saying “it got clogged with dust”

[orchid kettle]

very sensitive jetpacks

their allergies are acting up

[empty bloom]

40000 gallons of blood? Fine. Funni dust? Instant death

[modest marsh]

The best we got for halo is that it may boba Fett you if you get shot

[orchid kettle]

and the integrated thrusters may already essentially give you super hops

judging from that one weird panel from that comic where the Jerome chair meme comes from

he does a big jump at some point with fire shooting out of his back as if he used a jetpack, but there's clearly no jetpack

[modest marsh]

Nah if you’re talking about tales from slipspace, blue team essentially flies onto the mammoth in On The Brink and Linda stays airborne, which is even more ridiculous

[orchid kettle]

doesn't Linda zip around like a halo 2 elite ranger in lone wolf too

[modest marsh]

And then in the final issue of Lone Wolf she’s also flying around like she has a traditional jetpack

Yeah

[orchid kettle]

or did she have a jetpack there

[modest marsh]

No, but she does have one in Collateral Damage

I’m sensing a theme

[orchid kettle]

which one came first

did the lone wolf guy think having a jetpack was just Linda's thing

[modest marsh]

Tales from slipspace

[orchid kettle]

I will say, now that we have options, i kinda don't mind keeping GEN2 around as like, the crazy mobility armor core

The Warrior armor if I recall always had some blurb about "mobility" or something like that

[modest marsh]

Now realizing what you meant, Collateral Damage came before Lone Wolf

[hushed jetty]

It’s pretty pathetic they didn’t even have the balls to add in a gen-2 core in infinite. There’s plenty of solid looks there, like helljumper, recruit, that they just backed down from

I loved warmaster

[modest marsh]

The WARRIOR's dual channel gel layer can disperse kinetic and thermal energy quickly and efficiently, while still preserving mobility.

[orchid kettle]

dual channel

it gets ESPN and CBS

[orchid kettle]

call it Javelin now that Anthem is dead

[modest marsh]

I like the idea of WARRIOR being a no frills, pure military benchmark design that doesn’t try to over promise

It does what it says on the tin

[orchid kettle]

Warrior was always my favorite

Halo 5 kinda messed it up imo when it changed the paintjob to be like, random scratches or something

[modest marsh]

I realize this is oxymoronic in the context of it being mjolnir armor but it really does read as the true neutral approach that everything else is meant to be diverging from somehow

[orchid kettle]

And then it just kinda got forgotten

and if anything people see Recruit as "the base GEN2 variant"

😔

[hushed jetty]

Recruit was goated

[orchid kettle]

Recruit wasn't even finished in Halo 4!

[hushed jetty]

My biggest issue with recruit was it was described as like a noobs armour, when it was literally the best designed armour

[orchid kettle]

It used Warrior arms and it didn't have the asymmetrical shoulders

[modest marsh]

Just because it has training wheels doesn’t mean it isn’t good

[orchid kettle]

it took until the Ricochet armor pack for the game to actually give us the Recruit arms

[hushed jetty]

It makes it somewhat uninteresting

[orchid kettle]

Id argue in-universe Athlon is more so the "training armor"

[modest marsh]

I do wonder what ends up happening to the leftover recruit sets after someone “upgrades” from it

[orchid kettle]

may just be recycled

[hushed jetty]

I always wore war master because it was described as general purpose with the ability to upgraded, sick as hell flavour text. And it looked okay enough.

Recruit was literally “this sucks get out of it asap”

[karmic gulch]

Guys which helmet would be better for a head hunter lore wise: MK VI or Infractor?

[coarse hamlet]

probably mk VI, dont think we know that much about infractor armor

[karmic gulch]

Alr

[hushed jetty]

The stalker armour from halo 4 was a signature stealth suit so infractor would be similar

[karmic gulch]

So would that make it better for a headhunter Spartan?

[sonic lagoon]

What are the biggest similarities between marathon’s pfhor empire and the covenant? What are their biggest differences?

[hushed jetty]

https://www.halopedia.org/Headhunters

click through known headhunters. But yes, roughly infractor is more in line

[hushed jetty]

In the same vein though, if you are a spartan 3 your parents died to the covenant, so wearing something inspired by or having anything but pure hatred for the aliens is uncharacteristic

[stoic hamlet]

It seems to, at least for the GEN1 iteration.

Both GEN1 and GEN3 Mirage are said to be a refinement of SPI. It’s only noteworthy thing is the cloaking tech.

[orchid kettle]

and also the word "Mirage" implies cloaking

[stoic hamlet]

Get rid of the Photoreactive panels and all the other bells and whistles, and it’s no different to ORCUS,or something.

[orchid kettle]

speaking of which

if ORCUS is titanium-A

is it now more durable than base SPI

[stoic hamlet]

I figured SPI’s and Mirage’s lack of robustness is due to the paneling and coatings.

Like, the plating can’t be as durable because of all the stealth tech, even if the plating is technically as strong, when it loses the stealthed aspect it’s no better than ORCUS or MJOLNIR, or whatever.

But then, 343 seem really opposed to SPI anyways, so idk, probably, lol

I’m real miffed I forgot to ask if the Passive Camo tech seen in GEN3 during Shadows of Reach was based on/an iteration (but worse) of SPI’s camo.

Hopefully I can ask with the Rubicon Protocol Spartan Chatter.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s also Venenzian, and not likely widely issued or supplied, if it’s even offered to UNSC forces anyways.

It’s a SIGINT helmet, at that.

[karmic gulch]

Imma write the lore so that it's a Special MK VII model for this team that has cloaking

[stoic hamlet]

GEN3 MJOLNIR comes standard with cloaking. But it’s worse than SPI.

It’s also (GEN3 Mark VII) much more prone to failure.

It has a lot of bells and whistles and doesn’t do well on long campaigns.

That’s MJOLNIR in a nutshell, really, but Mark VII is the most egregious.

[hushed jetty]

The armour lore is all over the place and makes minimal sense. The description of scout from halo 5 always gave me the impression that it was far too good to be true, only from what we know about spi. I think Halo 5 had both recon and scout as invisible to thermals

[stoic hamlet]

Broadly speaking it’s possible, but not practical.

From the actuwl novels, we’ve seen MJOLNIR with cloaking tech can be masked, but not made invisible to thermals, but SPI’s been written as literally invisible to thermals, just as a standard.

MJOLNIR needs to basically ship of Theseus itself to be made so.

And we’ve never actually seen it done.

[hushed jetty]

Yeah there's that part from the perspective of the Forerunners which was fair, but I think the flavor text over Recon and Scout was from the observation of human and covenant devices, which it could be entirely invisible

[stoic hamlet]

It mentions it’s sensor shrouding, but that’s seemingly more of a terminology used, rather that an actual literal description.

And even then, without replacing the reactor, any supplemental cloaking tech is moot, anyways, as mentioned in Shadows of Reach.

[hushed jetty]

The flavour text of those two armours mentions masking the reactor, I think thats quite different than Chief putting a camo device on his baseline Mark VII. One thing that's still annoying about Gen-2 and 3, is no character ever changing their armour

[orchid kettle]

active camo, but wear the thermal-masking poncho from TFOR

then you are merely a flying garbage bag

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah, but that’s a stopgap, not a fix. Maverick can swap out it’s reactor, which you’d likely see other suits do as well, but broadly, when you go for stealth you trade that for something else. In SPI’s case it’s protection. With MJOLNIR it seems to be general durability.

Linda’s Halo infinite coatings for example mention they mask thermal and infrared signatures, but she has the same struggles as the rest of Blue Team in Shadows of Reach.

If you wanted, like, the perfect, perfect stealth suit, you’d probably go with Mirage with it’s PR coating, augmented with BLACK FALCON underneath (though this might be one and the same, or share derivations together), then use extra gear further coated in the PR stealth tech, and throw down a net of sensor baffles and decoys when engaged.

But then it’s always a trade off.

[hushed jetty]

I want to hope they have a lore bible where things like this a preplanned years out, but those thermal coatings came out after the book.

I asked you a question like 12 hours ago with a similar thing, about none of the Gammas yet wearing Mirage yet, if you wanted to answer it. (None of the books were released after the mirage core)

[stoic hamlet]

MJOLNIR is notoriously unreliable long term, so even if it’s better at stealth, it’s not always the best suit, and Mirage might ek out a win there.

[stoic hamlet]

Oh, sorry, lol. Must have missed it, busy day.

[hushed jetty]

It should be in your notifications, hopefully

[stoic hamlet]

Depends on what they’re doing.

MIRAGE is just a better SPI Mark II (call it Mark III, for all intents and purposes), and it’s what we see G-059 using.

Saber haven’t used Mirage that we know of, but their missions after joining up with Lopis, with the exception of the one in Retribution, don’t really require it, and wouldn’t be suited to it.

Broadly, I think a Gamma/S-III in general would be able to leverage Mirage much better than an S-II or IV. It’s a system they know, and likely one they’ve helped shape over the years, they’d know it’s bells and whistles better than anyone else.

[hushed jetty]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is an interesting thought to think about the combat role of the different Spartans. S3's sort of get pigeonholed into ambush sneaky guys, when they're probably the most trained and practiced in full blown large scale assault, and to me the SPI they have is more akin to wearing green facepaint.

I think narratively, I don't think any Spartans have ever been apart of a larger army of Spartans, but I guess maybe the attacks on Infinity would have thousands of Spartan-4's fighting. The S-2's would have been that force of 30 on Reach, but Alpha and Beta regularly attacked with 300 Spartans.

Including marines, I'm not sure what Spartan branch would be more acclimated to large scale warfare

[icy sonnet]

Where is the UNSC Infinity?

[wispy pewter]

In the infinity of space

atleast, what remains of it

[modest marsh]

Unconfirmed because they haven’t decided what to do with it most likely

The running theory is that it was meant to crash land on Zeta and act as a base of operations for the UNSC survivors, but that got scrapped and replaced by the Reverie instead

[royal relic]

Cyclops was my personal favorite

honestly never understood the Gen 2 hate

[stoic hamlet]

I mean it still could be, considering we don’t know where the main UNSC landing zone is.

[vagrant ocean]

GEN2 had so many bangers.

[vagrant ocean]

I have a feeling Infinity, or what left of her, might still be in the Ephsu system.

[stoic hamlet]

As far as we know it isn’t, per the multiplayer cutscenes.

[vagrant ocean]

Then she’s MIA

[obsidian thistle]

Ok guess I can share my small Halo Wars discivery now! 😄

Turns out the system Arcadia is in has 7 planets.

Fun extra fact, the writers of the og Halo visual guide got Arcadias place right!

And while I cant wiki this

I reckon Laconia (unrelated to Laconia Station) is Procyon I or III

Due to the close proximity to Arcadia

[royal relic]

yeah, some other personal favorite include Breaker, Icarus, Mako is also pretty interesting, in general I love how sleek the armor design it, but I also have to admit I look at them with the potential of additional customization

[orchid kettle]

Warrior, Warrior, Warrior

If Halo 3 MCC had the real Warrior helmet instead of the Halo Online monstrosity, I'd probably be a lot more tempted to switch off the Fireteam Raven armor

[empty bloom]

Breaker enjoyer 🤝

[royal relic]

yeee, Cyclops is still my jam though, with the helmet having this gas mask ish features plus the bulbous forehead module reminiscent of some 90s/2000s future soldier concepts

actually made OC use the armor when jumping to Gen 2, jumping from Air Assault/HAZOP setup

honestly, looking back, surprised I have an easier time to jump into liking Gen 2 than from Gen 2 to Gen 3 despite Gen 3 being so Reach Mk.V[B] coded, yet to this day I still don't have a clear preference for the Gen 3 armors

[empty bloom]

It does annoy me a tad that it got confirmed that GEN2 suits have been updated to the GEN3 standard a'la Mark Vb, we just haven't seen it.

The GEN3 remakes of the GEN2 armors don't count.

[obsidian thistle]

No project is an island.

[frigid heart]

Nice reference

[dusk jetty]

I’d like to change my undersuit in the next game again

[orchid kettle]

what if it's an island-building project

[obsidian thistle]

Fun reminder nothing escapes the IRS...

... not even the Halo Universe.
https://www.halopedia.org/File:ILB_Taxes_suck.ogg

Its funnier when you realise thats tied to the i love bees audio drama so someone got that clip on a payphone, and the first thing said was

So why does the IRS want to audit you?

[royal relic]

Gen 2 with Gen 3 undersuit would look kinda rad NGL

[hushed jetty]

Are there pockets of the galaxy where the flood are active

[obsidian thistle]

Have I got a two storys for you

https://www.halowaypoint.com/news/halo-saturn-devouring-his-son

And

https://www.halowaypoint.com/news/halo-ascension-on-atropos

Read the top one first

It leads onto the second

[hushed jetty]

I read them a while ago, thank you, I will read them again. That is sort of a contained situation is it not, between those two ships

[empty bloom]

I mean that is what a pocket be

[royal relic]

also, it's not like I hate Gen 3 designs, like, far from it, but also like... I'm kinda not sure which one to like the most, like Rakshasa and Mirage cores are cool in idea - especially so since I'm a big fan of Spartan IIIs, plus the whole tacticool greeble, but the removal of the "backpack" from the typical MJOLNIR design without any equivalent replacement(actual backpack for extra storage or mission essential module) made them feel really empty, in particular Mirage lacks helmet designs I liked with Balor being closest though Rakshasa have Shikari that I'm quite fond of. I like the base Gen 3 MkVII core design overall but the meh tacticool options kinda hurts and- okay, I have some helmets I kinda liked like Volant(Air Assault replacement) and Flanker, but I actually have gripes where we have like, several new ODST helmets for no reason when they can just be attachment to existing ODST helmet, and just the whole ridiculous amounts of special helmets with special attachments with near no common mounting point, it just frustrates me because at least back in H4 and H5 you don't have attachment customization so like, sure, okay, loads of special different armor so everyone can look different, but it just doesn't make sense lore wise to have all the heccin special different helmets with special attachment to the point we get to see in Infinite. I guess part of it could be blamed due to previously all the stuff being locked to certain cores so each core need something of their own, but it's still ridiculous especially with something like, ODST hardshell going to MkV[B] that already has base ODST instead of, I dunno, MkIV core? Liberator also on MkV[B] instead of Mirage or Rakshasa is also wtf considering it's supposed to be Roland's.... just... urrrggghhh

[hushed jetty]

I was questioning because I wanted to figure out how to bring a story together properly about the flood in the modern timeline, but it seems to be tricky

[sleek vigil]

I had this idea of a truely reimagined Halo remake — a truely expansive remake, and I know we are not getting this, likely because it is a bit ambitious and hard to sell to most of the fanbase. It is rewiring the story to be somewhat akin to ODST.

While Chief is the central protagonist, and the story is written to revolved around his agency, the way we experience it would be written in a timeline-based point of view, with perspective and playability of few other characters that contribute to the story. Everything moves through this, initially, disjointed timeline, reflecting on the rather fractured and lone feeling of survival on Alpha Halo, with all coming together towards the end.

[empty bloom]

Oh god please no

[sleek vigil]

I already assumed this sentiment would be echoed. I wasn't so wrong afterall. 😭

[wispy pewter]

nuh uh

How about a game where the campaign is divided into different chapters with its own stories

[sleek vigil]

So you just rebranded my idea? 😒

[wispy pewter]

Yeah but instead of timeline based and surrounding MC we get stories across the Halo universe in the various battles during the HCW or Zeta Halo BFV style

[versed helm]

How about a game set in a time of the forerunners fight against the flood.

[modest marsh]

series S proceeds to burst into flames as it tries to render millions of weapon-ships

[versed helm]

Just play it on steam lol we all know ppl aren’t buying Xboxes anymore

At least not new ones

[wispy pewter]

boring

[versed helm]

Yeah and different chapters is so unique. As if you kinda don’t have that in halo 2 flip flopping between arbiter and chief.

[wispy pewter]

they are still the same character in one storyline

like an anthology series

[steel stone]

After watching halo legends that would be one of the scariest halo games ever, think it would be great

there were some hellishly scary flood forms in legends that have me crapping myself, for a game ive always wanted to see whats its like fighting those forms we never got to see in the games

i tried finding out what they were on the halopedia and even they dont know what to call them or what they even were

[fading flume]

Do yall think saying “343 content isn’t canon, only Bungie is!” Is just pure copium? I mean they gave them the rights and completely dropped the ball on Halo, not like how Star Wars split into two factions. Besides, retcons exist, not like since Bungie came first and was the fan favorite that it now transcends the idea of retconning. A majority of people who believe are either older people who miss Bungie or younger ones who want hyper lethal to still be canon, at least from what info I’ve gotten from in my personal experience online

[modest marsh]

I do not like the tribalization of storytelling based on corporate entities

A lot of what is principally considered Halo was established without the involvement of Bungie

“Canon” is only a useful term in the context of connecting disparate stories in the same setting and if you draw the line based entirely upon preference, then it fails to mean anything of substance

[fading flume]

Honestly, I couldn’t have put it better myself

[bronze prawn]

Did the UNSC required conscripts or all the troops we see are volunteers

[modest marsh]

It is not specified and it’s entirely possible that it is determined based on the municipality, since the UEG is a federalized state with distinct subnations

We know they have a mechanism for conscription since the Spartan-IIs were (illegally due to age restrictions) conscripted

[fading flume]

I doubt they were all volunteers

[bronze prawn]

they are all going to die sooner or later, might as well take out some aliens while I can

[modest marsh]

Born on the Outer Colony world Kholo, Ilsa Zane was just eleven years old when she lost her parents and everyone she had ever known as the Covenant descended upon her home and reduced its surface to glass. Taken to the remote colony Asphodel as a ward of the state, Zane remained largely silent and solitary until coming of age in 2547, where she was conscripted into UNSC military service.

Ilsa Zane was apparently a conscript

[fading flume]

I mean, most people would think that, but I doubt everyone would be willing to go fight 7 foot tall muscular aliens that scream wort in your face and wield fantastical weapons

[orchid kettle]

If Mickey is any indication, service is mandatory for orphans to be released from foster care

I kinda have it in my head that the UNSC never strictly speaking passed a full, wide-reaching draft, but they probably did more stuff like this where people in certain circumstances were practically forced into service

Always figured you'd have people choosing between jail time and military service but I dont think we have any example of a character like that outside of Dirt

[odd bloom]

so like, why do you reckon the UNSC's tech is like... so all over the place

like

their spaceships seem very advanced and on par with what they should be

but their human scale equipment is just... wtf is this lore in a lot of ways

like the scorpion has been used for 300 years? still using 570 year old ammo?

wtf kinda drugs are their officials smoking

where has all those centuries of weapons development gone?

no laser pistols or rifles or anything even tho that tech seems like... really really far beneath them

[stoic hamlet]

The UNSC originally was meant to be an idea of the future from the late 90’s, taking a lot of its aesthetic from Aliens.

That’s faded now, but in the early novels it was much less advanced as a society.

[odd bloom]

the handheld railgun is much more what i'd excpect for the unsc

but i dont think itd just be some heavy anti armor weapon that fires few shots

i feel like they'd move to gauss assault rifles and such

all their weapons should be EM guns by default

throw gunpowder in the trash

make your bullets 5-6 times faster? sounds like a win already

[boreal bane]

https://discord.gg/EqfMhwpAf?event=1429216387993440337

[orchid kettle]

Not only that, but we can also see from super early builds of CE that the humans originally just had a normal modern military aesthetic

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah.

[orchid kettle]

at this point, the tech level is what it is because we don't want to lose those aesthetics

[stoic hamlet]

Aesthetics are a key part of a franchise.

[modest marsh]

How do you decide what “should” be?

[modest marsh]

I’m not sure where you’re getting 570 year old

[modest marsh]

Mostly into non-infantry combat solutions because that is where the minority of their attention went into

[modest marsh]

What if 99% of the things you’re trying to kill are lightly armored humans who die from getting shot a couple times? What if you’re frequently having to deal things like urban combat in densely populated areas? Or boarding actions on freighters and transports with hulls not designed to stop weapons discharges from the inside?

You need to be able to articulate the necessity of these proposed innovations before determining that they’re in fact worthy of the investment

[odd bloom]

well i mean like, on brand for an interstellar spacefaring civilization with FTL

[modest marsh]

Different settings require different technological innovations to make that possible

For instance, in the Mass Effect universe, the discovery of the titular mass effect phenomenon was required, which in turn justifies the ubiquity of many of their other technological innovations

The Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine required a very specific scientific innovation that isn’t scalable to things like firearms in a meaningful way

[tacit trench]

I believe it’s a thematic thing; the unsc represents modern ideals. It’s us just in the future; it makes thematic sense for they’re weapons, and equipment to closely resemble modern counterparts for the most part, and does not make thematic sense for them to use weapons we dont have often. If you want a more out they’re aesthetic take the elites for example they are a blending of multiple historical eras like knights, Roman Empire, Ancient Greece, samurai, and generally warrior cultures with aliens; so they have a emphasis on honor to a absurd inhuman level, one of the finer details of they’re society is using medicine is a social faux pas because its wimpy that illustrates elites are backwards. If the unsc had been hyper futuristic aesthetic they would’ve needed the ideals of a future civilization; than they wouldn’t have been effective as a faction whos perspective we are intended to look through because they’re thought process fundamentally differs from ours, you could keep the same ideals, but hyper futuristic aesthetic, however that would lead to a thematic dissonance.

[wispy pewter]

They still use nato rounds lol

I feel like only their weaponary and some vehicles seem very out of date

[unique rune]

just because they use ammunition that’s the same caliber as some current NATO ammo doesn’t mean it’s gone unchanged

[modest marsh]

Yeah it can’t be the same ammo

It’s specifically stated to be an armor piercing round

Real life M118 7.62mm is a ball cartridge

[unique rune]

that whole thing is legitimately just a bafflingly stupid take that I will never understand

it’s a form factor that works and has just gone through tons of iterative changes to keep it effective

I know Halo fans struggle with the concept of “bigger != better” because people would never shut up about the M808’s gun being 90mm and thus smaller than typical modern day MBTs but holy hell

[wispy pewter]

if they use HE then bigger is better tho

[unique rune]

yeah ok bud

[modest marsh]

You can carry more individual shells if you make each one smaller

It’s why intermediate cartridges have completely superseded full length rifle rounds in infantry roles since the end of WW2

2 of the big advantages that the scorpion has over real tanks is that has a very fast (and reliable) autoloader that means it can fire more rounds over a shorter period of time, and it also has a very fast turret traverse so it can quickly reorient to find new targets between shots or track fast moving ones much easier

Spartans made extensive use of the Scorpion in their operations, and a single super-soldier tank commander could rack up seemingly impossible kill counts against both ground and air targets.

[wispy pewter]

Yeah it can be one manned which is good

it looks so huge, but then the pelican is larger even though it doesnt seem like it

[empty bloom]

I kinda headcanon-to a tiny degree-that the AA variant of the Scorpion is the actual original configuration of Scorpion.

[modest marsh]

You mean the anti-infantry configuration?

[empty bloom]

Yeeees.

[modest marsh]

The Sun Devil and Scorpion combination was intended to provide close-range air-defense for tank groupings, but it is most famous as an anti-personnel weapon. Sun Devils continue to be a feared symbol of UNSC brutality and are prominently featured in Insurrection propaganda to the present day.

The Sun Devil was closely associated with Marine Corps peacekeeping operations at the height of the Insurrection, but most of these vehicles were transferred to Army service during the Covenant War.

Funniest lore

[coarse hamlet]

"but it is most famous as an anti-personnel weapon" reminds me of the skink, aa sherman with quad 20s that was quite effective at shooting infantry and most other things but was a failure because it never found a plane to shoot at

[modest marsh]

Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s the same idea

We never really hear much about “rebel aircraft”

[empty bloom]

Turns out rapid deployment of lethal submunitions is good against pbis.

[dusk jetty]

The flak 38 continues to whisper 500 years into the future

[vagrant ocean]

If it works it works. .50 BMG has been the standard heavy round in the west since the 1920s, and I doubt it’ll ever get replaced in my lifetime.

The 40mm Bofors is still in use to this day.

The 1911 is still in use in several militaries

Sometimes using outdated equipment is cheaper and more reliable.

[odd bloom]

it shouldnt work

how have the other humans not developed technologies to completely render modern guns irrelevant

was nobody making armor?

why is Oni the only ones whove ever developed power armor

and why do they treat it like this insane thing a normal human could never have a suit designed of

everyone in this verse be sitting on their hands technologically when all it takes is one faction deciding to say screw it and making more powerful stuff

and now spartans are dropping like flies from mf insurrectionists

if you tried going to war in a modern battleifeld with a musket you will be past tense very quickly as is what happens when you try maining a 500 year old weapon

[stoic hamlet]

They actually didn’t. The first ones to develop power armour and super soldiers were the CMA, both Initiatives were to allow CAA pioneers to survive on harsh colonies far from Earth.

The weapons are also not 500 years old… but even if they were, that’s not terribly surprising.

The AR platform is almost 70 years old, today, for reference, yet it’s the mainstay of most modern militaries, the AK platform is close to 80 now, or thereabouts.

The M2 Browning is over 100 years old, yet it’s still in service in many militaries.

The B-52 bomber isn’t planned to be retired until the 2050’s, well over a hundred years of service.

[odd bloom]

the scorpion has been around for 300

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah, because it’s all that was needed.

It’s also been iterated on over the decades.

There were no wars after the Interplanetary Wars of the 2160’s. There was no reason to innovate military equipment.

You don’t need state of the art weapons to fight Somali pirates, which is the extent of what the CMA and UNSC was facing for over 300 years.

[odd bloom]

how did the UN somehow unite a place like earth where we've hated eachothers guts for millenia

such that there are no other large oppositional factions that could throw a wrench in what they do

how did no individual countries make their own exclusive colonies only for them and not the un

etc

what about the countries that didnt wanna play ball on old earth

[stoic hamlet]

the first extrasolar colonies didn’t exist until over a 100 years after full unification.

We do know there are nation states on Earth still.

Like the East African Protectorate, the Unified Republics of North America, and unified Korea.

[unique rune]

also this is just

not a thing that’s happening?

off the top of my head pretty much every Spartan death has been some sort of freak accident, fighting the Covenant/remnants/Flood/non-humans, other Spartans that went rogue, or some combination of those

[empty bloom]

Sigh. Are we pretending humanity didn't advance infantry tech since 2005 again?

[unique rune]

you say this like anything the UNSC uses actually is just “a modern gun”
when presumably the only thing they have in common is just some basic form factor stuff and being based on the same principles of using a contained explosion to fling bits of metal at the enemy

there is almost certainly about as much in common between an MA5 assault rifle and an M4 carbine as there would be an M4 and one of the muskets used in the Revolutionary War

[stoic hamlet]

sigh yeah.

[stoic hamlet]

And, I mean, even if it is the case… who really cares?

[exotic pulsar]

Eh, mine uses ODST with CBRN and AN/PCK-221 FARNDALE even as a pilot. The choice of helmet can always be based on prerence then role.

[stoic hamlet]

For dedicated pilots? Not really.

Your choices are much more limited just by nature that helmets are geared for specific roles.

You can’t just jump in a Broadsword and fly it as effectively as someone wearing the Aviator helmet (the recommended helmet for that craft).

There are certain helmets and equipment geared to allow one to jump between roles, like Stinger, but that’s a very specific circumstance and it would give up abilities in other areas.

That’s why variants exist in the first place. Not every helmet or armour can do everything, they’re not meant to.

[exotic pulsar]

Thing is there is still a sense of independence and individuality in the Spartan branch. If the UNSC was actually rather strict with them hand modified weapons like Nornfang would not exist. They would also have them wear armor based on the mission parameters instead. “Why do you need extra space for grenades this is a stealth mission.”

[modest marsh]

We have a pretty narrow view of the dynamics of human v human warfare but the overwhelming impression we have of it is that rebel forces largely relied on old CMA and UNSC surplus or stolen equipment, so the UNSC's incentive to develop new hardware would be predicated on the idea that they're countering their own (mostly obsolescent) equipment

so the question becomes "what problem are we solving" by making ray guns?

[odd bloom]

'you're paying me with my own money, clark'

[odd bloom]

well i mean shrug its just weapons have always escalated in general over time, its more the fact that someone got humanity to unite at all that is the incredulous part causing the situation lol

[modest marsh]

Okay but if anything, the lethality of small arms has degraded since the turn of the millenium

if you're only measuring by how many foot pounds it can transfer into a body anyways

[exotic pulsar]

Wonder why….

[modest marsh]

No matter how much body armor you stack on someone, getting shot is not nice so warfighting doctrine is still gonna seek to avoid getting shot in the first place as a primary defensive strategy

WW1 and 2 militaries largely gave up on personal body armor for a reason

[stoic hamlet]

They kind of do.

Nornfang isn’t one rifle, for example, it’s just the latest in whatever Linda’s customized. That’s stated to be a key component of the SRS99 from the get go.

Similarly, one of the Halo 4 packets mentions Spartans customizing armour for purely personal preference is highly discouraged and frowned upon.

These are soldiers (or sailors, or airmen) after all, they’re not really playing dress up.

They need to actually use the kit they take with them.

[modest marsh]

logistics wins wars, mostly, and you can shoot more smaller bullets from weapons that are lighter and easier to maintain

[exotic pulsar]

Yeah, but who is going to tell a spartan no to wearing a ODST helmet when they used to be one?

[modest marsh]

which is to say, maintaining a multigeneration lineage of materiel when you're an interstellar military makes a lot of sense because god forbid you fully break compatibility with decades or even centuries old equipment

if it still works after some refurbishment, it would be wasteful not to use it

[stoic hamlet]

That’s not the same as them being a pilot though, which is the point of contention.

They’re ODST’s first and foremost, Pilots second.

[modest marsh]

you can reasonably assume that most people skilled enough to be a Spartan probably has rudimentary pilot qualification but independent of their personal skill, their equipment could impact their performance in such a way that is not acceptable by command

[stoic hamlet]

It’s less about someone needing to tell them no (if someone has to tell them, they probably weren’t Spartan material in the first place) and more that they’d know better than to jeopardize a mission and their teammates just so they can play dress up, lol.

[modest marsh]

that is to say though i think we can reasonably assume most spartan equipment, especially form factors as popular as the ODST helmet, would probably have the bare minimum features to perform in practically any expected role

like using the calculator on your phone instead of a Ti-84

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

It’d be a generalist helmet, but not necessarily something you’d wear if your role was specialized.

[exotic pulsar]

I mean, at least my spartan isn't in some ridiculous get up that has cat ears. Also Tenrai stuff does tend to be more flashy then it ever needs to be.

[modest marsh]

the cat ears are less ridiculous than one might expect

[exotic pulsar]

What could be more ridiculous then cat ears?

[modest marsh]

well i more so mean that you can readily justify an ear-like apparatus on armor when theres arguably way more questionable shapes used in other cases

gen2 in general has a lot of bobs and bits that dont really have a clear functionality goal

ears i can get cause thats a thing that exists in nature

https://www.halopedia.org/images/c/cb/Kelly_3.jpg?fa29a

people hate on kelly's design in legends a little too much because there's a few aspects there that are a stroke of genius

mainly, orienting the helmet lights to look like ears cuz she's the "rabbit"

https://halo.wiki.gallery/images/9/9c/Enc22-Kelly.png

they brought it back for her gen3 design and its even more obvious

[exotic pulsar]

Well yeah because she's the fastest one. I imagine there is some tactical reason why it's positioned that way.

[wispy pewter]

Yeah especially in the recent book

They just die to main rifles lol

makes the sabot slinging anti material guns seem like overkill

Think it was Adriana or Michael that got taken out by some MA4 or 5

and then of course there is James using his rifle to kill multiple Jannisaries

[modest marsh]

none of the spartans except merrick died in that

well, from combat injuries at least

ah, wait, i guess Vidalin was killed from gunfire

Spartan Jai-006 was such a target. One of the most resilient Tul ‘Juran had ever witnesssed, in fact. Jai had taken six carbine rounds to the stomach, three of which breached his armor and its shielding, penetrating his body and contaminating his bloodstream. The Spartan’s injury was no indictment of his capabilities since he had turned toward Merrick when he detected a threat among his own kind. Before Merrick even fired, Vul ‘Soran had already emptied his carbine’s magazine into Jai. It was astonishing that it had not immediately killed the human.

Jai was shot with a full magazine of carbine rounds and lived with negligible injury so unless that means the MA40 is more powerful, I don’t think that’s an indictment of the UNSC’s technology if the supposedly superior covenant equipment fails where an MA40 succeeded

[modest marsh]

The first jannisary James fights launched him from one side of a frigate to the other with an uppercut and proceeds to take multiple shots from his DMR before fighting him in close quarters and nearly winning

I think you’re mixing them up with the non-janissary slavers

The kill shot was also with his magnum

Solomon suddenly spun out of the hold with a roll, throwing the janissary off and directly into the trembling slaver. The weight of a fully armored super-soldier crushed the other human instantly and bought Solomon enough time to retrieve his M6D from his side and unload an entire magazine into the janissary. As the opponent’s energy shielding dissipated, Solomon landed a final head shot, which dropped the armored body like dead weight.

[vagrant ocean]

Yes

[frigid heart]

You know what would complete this?

UCP

[wispy pewter]

ah I see

[modest marsh]

Anyways, to address the point further, it’s true there’s been some depictions of Spartans being weirdly vulnerable to gunfire, such as Vidalin seemingly being gunned down by Merrick, but even within this same book you see Spartans and even this Janissary sustain several magazines worth of gunfire before their shields fail so at best I think that’s just inconsistent writing

While not evidenced as such, it’s also possible Vidalin was simply wearing armor that offers lesser protection than GEN1 Mark V Mjolnir like Mirage or Rakshasa

[carmine sleet]

I don't recall it specifying what armour the IVs joining Grey were wearing, so it is possible

Like, being a super soldier is great and all, but if you're not wearing the super high tech armour with energy shields, you're still dying to a bullet to the head (Gross simplification but you get the idea)

[modest marsh]

Unless you’re Black-II or Linda

[carmine sleet]

Or Kat

But yeah, inconsistent depictions of how durable Mjolnir is has been happening since day one so you just have to accept it whenever it happens

[odd bloom]

are the spartans the only human augmentation that is really prominent in the UNSC? are alternate cybernetics or bio-augmentation projects ever referenced? i know the prototype spartans had a diff name

[modest marsh]

The UEG has strict anti-genetic modification laws that have been in place since the interplanetary wars in the 2160s

Cybernetic modifications and the like more or less require gene editing on some level to prevent rejection

[odd bloom]

the spartans have such a heaping sandwich of un-ethicality sometimes i wonder why they bothered at all

raise a genetically perfect clone from a single cell with cybernetics added from infancy onwards

chips in their brains to control them

[modest marsh]

This is addressed

Bungie originally conceptualized the Spartans as clones, but when they actually went through with conceptualizing the project’s backstory they landed on the child soldier angle

Anyways, cloning has again been illegal for several centuries already so they’re not very good at it

It takes decades of research and trials to perfect big breakthroughs like that

[odd bloom]

halsey making one of the extremely rare vaguely moral choices in her entire life

she's a straight up mad scientist with what she gets up to

[modest marsh]

I dont think its an issue of morality on her part, because obviously she was fine with creating imperfect clones that would be doomed to die an agonizing death with limited understanding of why

Doubly cruel because she implanted the body doubles with the memories of the children she was replacing them with

[odd bloom]

so why couldnt they just use the cloned kid instead of the original

[modest marsh]

Cloning millions of neural connections and such rapidly is very hard

Harder than a limb or organ

Also, genes don’t make the person

[orchid kettle]

To be honest from a narrative perspective I think its almost more tragic and thus interesting if the IIs were clones

[modest marsh]

It contributes to a large fraction of the end result, but people are also their environment and experiences

[orchid kettle]

in fact isn't the implication in homecoming that some of the escapees shoot themselves because they think they're the clone when they run into their living copy

[modest marsh]

The IIs weren’t just genetically ideal, they were grown into being promising individuals after 6 years of life

[orchid kettle]

I also feel like you'd then have this parallel between John and Cortana both being clones and having to find meaning in that

but I guess if you canonize cloning as being viable then it begs the question of why there's not multiple Chiefs running around

Literally the 117th John

[hushed jetty]

I feel like the actual real mad science ideal way would have been to find 150 perfect brains and then 150 perfect bodies and transplanted them or something, but I guess maybe they already had those factors anyways

[modest marsh]

All this stuff is really complicated, because the reality is I would argue that the brain isn’t the totality of a person’s essence either

The science on this is still in its infancy but there’s an argument to be made a significant chunk of what makes you you has as much to do with peripheral systems like the rest of your neuroskeletal structure, endocrine system, or even gut microbiota

And your soul, if you believe in that

(For scientific purposes you can just attribute whatever undiscovered phenomena may or may not be attributed to what dictates consciousness and the subjective experience)

The only way to be sure is to judge an individual based on their expressed traits and not just assume that because they have good genes or even organs means they’re going to be the ideal choice for a particular task

Also, and this is a less focused-on issue, but the Spartan-IIs were never intended to be a one-and-done

They wanted to make more, and the first class was just a test run for all intents and purposes

[modest marsh]

Also, and this is really important, but putting a brain in an unfamiliar body for it to control is a great way to make someone experience an extreme version of body dysphoria

People form neural connections along their entire lifespan to optimize how it responds to stimuli and carries out certain actions

Ie muscle memory

If you put X brain into Y body, there’s no telling how well it would sync

[twin parcel]

Halo 4 may not be my favorite game but if there's one thing that absolutely hit me was the opening cutscene of John sitting on a crate alone and showing the humanity underneath the armor. Showing how much SPARTANs deal with mentally.

Straight up gut punched me.

[twin parcel]

Imho, the IIIs were probably the most morally right class of SPARTANs. (even though Halsey didn't create them) by the time the IIIs were being augmented the Human Covenant war had already raged on for years and Humanity needed as many "silver bullets" in magazine if you will. Provided we ignore the fact they were supposed to be mass produced disposable versions of the IIs, the IIIs were atleast war orphans whose families had been killed by the covenant.

Still child soldiers, but atleast they were child soldiers who weren't kidnapped from random civvies.

[stoic hamlet]

They were orphans who couldn’t consent.

The only morally right class is the S-IV’s.

[twin parcel]

I just have a morally grey outlook on life.

If my species was being genocided by alien jihadists, and augmented child soldiers were one of the few things to help slow the extinction of my species, Id Greenlight the project.

[stoic hamlet]

That doesn’t make it moral though.

[twin parcel]

Not at all, but that's the whole point of it. Morals are not black and white, usually there's a reason for making a morally wrong decision.

[coarse hamlet]

lmfao "its better because they didn't have families"

[twin parcel]

If it's done in good conscience, then is it wrong? Everyone's opinion differs on it.

It may be wrong, but nuking Hiroshima was also wrong. But it ended the war didn't it?

[modest marsh]

It’s a bit of a slippery slope to make such comparisons

You could justify pretty much any measure taken if the consequences were desirable

[twin parcel]

Using chemical warfare is also objectively wrong, but using it to defend democracy and the civilized world may make it right. War is not "good or bad"

War is war and Morals fly out the window when rounds start coming at you

[stoic hamlet]

You began your comment with “S-III is the most moral Spartan program”. It isn’t, lol.

[twin parcel]

That's how war is, it turns men into animals and morals aren't an issue when you're trying to survive.

[stoic hamlet]

That’s the point I’m calling out.

[twin parcel]

In my opinion it is, but that's my opinion isn't it? We all have our own moral guidelines. I believe that the SPARTANs were needed and therefore "right"

You think otherwise and that's your right.

[twin parcel]

Pretty much sums up warfare in general.

[modest marsh]

Im illustrating why this is unproductive

[stoic hamlet]

The comparison between a caring tyrant versus a cruel one, comes to mind, as an example.

A cruel, selfish leader may shrink his evils out of boredom, and the pursuit of new things. A self-righteous leader, one who believes themselves a saviour or that they’re doing these acts for the better,ent of society, will never stop or cease.

[modest marsh]

I think we can mostly agree genocide for instance has no conceivable justification even as a wartime measure

[twin parcel]

Yep

[halcyon gazelle]

I’m reading the books and have read Fall of reach, Flood, First strike and am half way through Ghosts of onyx. I’m wondering what to read next, everyone seems to have condescending opinions, what’s the general consensus

[modest marsh]

release order is a safe choice

[stoic hamlet]

*contrasting, not condescending.

But if you’re going release order, it’d be Contact Harvest.

[modest marsh]

Alternatively, choose what interests you most

[coarse hamlet]

contact harvest is a good read

[twin parcel]

I wouldn't try and do it in chronological order of the timeline. It made my head almost explode.

[modest marsh]

If there’s particular characters or plot lines you want to continue following, you can try that since they usually have relatively self contained storylines

[stoic hamlet]

You kind of can’t, anyways.

Try going chronological, but like, fully committing, and you’re gonna have a bad time, lol.

[twin parcel]

Yep, tried to do a chronological read of the books last year and I wanted to die.

[stoic hamlet]

You’d need to read one book for a few chapters, then jump to another book for one chapter mid way through, then go back to the first book for a chapter, then jump to a whole other book to read it through, etc.

[modest marsh]

Tfw the forerunner trilogy arguably should be read after K5

[halcyon gazelle]

I listened to the first like 5 in chronological order on audible a few years ago and it just fried my brain, jumping from fore runner to pre war to mid war

[twin parcel]

Kilo Five is the one with Naomi right?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes

[twin parcel]

And Russia's greatest love machine, Vasily.

[modest marsh]

The framing device for the forerunner books is that it’s a retelling of events from Spark’s PoV and thus takes place well after the events of halo 3

So a true chronological order has to treat it as such

[twin parcel]

The one piece of Halo media I really want is the comic where Jerome beats a flood form to death with a steel chair.

Jerome with a steel chair would solo high charity.

[halcyon gazelle]

Are the comics worth reading?

[twin parcel]

I wouldn't know sadly, I've yet to get them.

[fading flume]

Depends on which ones

[halcyon gazelle]

Also would they be illegible on a black and white kindle

[fading flume]

I’d assume so since they’re linked to Kindle, which works regardless of device if it’s successfully integrated, which is then an extension of Amazon online book purchasing

[coarse hamlet]

id honestly just skip kilo 5 and the forerunner trilogy. k5 because i think its just bad and the forerunner trilogy because while its well written i think its brain poison that ultimately explains like 2 characters motivation but is otherwise so disconnected from anything else it hurts

[halcyon gazelle]

I just mean would it be worth picking up physically because it’s black and white

[fading flume]

I’d honestly go for the physical copies

[twin parcel]

I enjoyed K5s story but I found it a bit of a slog.

[stoic hamlet]

K5 has great rough ideas, terrible execution.

[twin parcel]

Kind of like Dark Souls 2 in that way

[coarse hamlet]

i really did not need the elite rubix cube that humans are super good at solving to be a thing that is stuck in my mind

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf it’s just the one human.

[coarse hamlet]

and i want to politely ask him to leave my mind

[twin parcel]

I didn't need the fandom to bombard me with Naomi and Vasily being a thing.

She'd crush him like a beer can.

My favorite book has to be Envoy though. Grey Team is absolutely my favorite.

110/10, would recommend the read.

[coarse hamlet]

i really enjoyed hunters in the dark

[twin parcel]

My brain doesn't remember the plotline.

(it's taken up by the elder scrolls lore)

[coarse hamlet]

||000 tragic solitude, the monitor of the ark, has decided to eat the earth to repair the ark||

[twin parcel]

Oh!

Like literally ||eating the earth?!||

[coarse hamlet]

yuuuuup

[twin parcel]

Thats metal as hell.

Gonna need one big mouth for that.

Jupiter sized, at the least.

Envoy is probably one of my favorites for the reason of it reintrodicing a cut enemy from H2

That and Grey Team being specialists in behind enemy lines suicide missions without any support.

It's a bit of a long read before you get into the real meat of it but when you do it really draws you in.

[modest marsh]

Nah, just a fleet of ships that can lift tectonic plates

[vagrant ocean]

One point of contention I have with the Scorpion is it’s 90mm cannon. Unless tanks have gotten less armored since the 21st century, or they’ve somehow managed to make 90mm have the same power as 120mm.

[stoic hamlet]

They have, evidently. As the M820 has a 120mm, but from the 2022 Encyclopedia both cannon’s are competitive with each other.

[vagrant ocean]

Well I wouldn’t consider the M820 to be standard issue, as it was brand new at the time of the Created Conflict and was temporarily phased out. I think the 120mm would be better for specialized ammunition such as HE or HEAT, maybe even HESH if they use it for some reason.

[coarse hamlet]

The sovet l11 76.2mm gun, the soviet f34 76.2mm gun, the american 76.2mm m1 gun, and the british 76.2mm qf 17 pounder all had a range of performances and ammunitions within the same decade. It's like the opposite of a stretch to assume that future gun and ammunition developments would occur that would make that diameter size useful

[wispy pewter]

Inconsistent writing is what I will be sticking with, Gen 3 or 2 Mark VII is the standard issue im pretty sure

[wispy pewter]

this is why I think they should have used their railgun tech on the tanks

[vagrant ocean]

What if I told you that Misriah Armory did just that.

[modest marsh]

GEN3 is still pretty new and the supply chain issues caused by the created crisis has forced the UNSC to rely more on substandard equipment including refurbished GEN1 equipment

GEN1 gear is actually more durable than GEN2 on the whole

Shields not withstanding, although upgraded GEN1 probably has equivalent shielding

[vagrant ocean]

Mainly due to more plating.

[wispy pewter]

On that wheely boi

[wispy pewter]

Most of the new recruits in the canon intro cutscene are wearing it tho

[modest marsh]

What are you talking about?

Commander Agryna is the only one wearing any armor in the Season 1 opening cutscene at the academy

If you mean when it transitions to gameplay, yeah, other Spartans are wearing Mark VII

I don’t really get the purpose in pointing this out though, Empty Throne happens much earlier than the events of the Academy

And just because a bunch of Spartans at the academy have Mark VII issued to them doesn’t mean all of them do

Dinh and Eklund for instance have stuck with Rakshasa, Jun seemingly still wears his Mark V[B], and promotional art for the chronicle The Third Life indicates at least one Spartan wore mirage

[carmine sleet]

It also just makes sense for 343/HS wanted to show off the Mark VII at launch when it's the brand new armour the game is releasing with and every player got by default back before they made all armour cores unlocked for everyone

Like, my bet is that Infinity got the first lot of Gen 3 Mark VII suits, since they were going to be doing a very risky mission, it makes sense they would get the best gear possible for Spartan teams on board. Then places like the Academy got them second because they were still hidden away. But they didn't get enough to outfit all the Spartans training there, explaining why we see other sets of canon armour

And then we have other Spartans who are outfitted with stuff like upgraded Gen 1 suits, such as Mark V[b] or Mark IV, Gen 2 suits, as it's unlikely Vale would've gotten an upgrade from her Gen 2 Copperhead, or suits like Rakshasa and Mirage

I imagine any Spartans wearing Osteo are likely ones for very specialised HAZMAT units since that's what the armour is meant for

[wispy pewter]

when they got off the Pelican

[carmine sleet]

At the start of the tutorial?

[wispy pewter]

Yeah

[obsidian thistle]

I think GEN3 Mark VII may have existed prior to John getting his GEN3 Mark VI made

I mean my logic is that Blue Team had to wear Mark VII suits before moving to the Mark VI platform.

[carmine sleet]

That isn't exactly a sign all Spartan IVs across the known galaxy have access to Gen 3 Mark VII. It's most likely those Spartans all got given new gear because they were easier to get the gear to

[carmine sleet]

Aye, I imagine Chief's Gen 3 is custom tailored for him, given that he and the other members of Blue seem to be the only ones who have Gen 3 Mark VI canonically

[wispy pewter]

Maybe one of them were Vidalin or McEndon

[carmine sleet]

We already know who the Spartans on the Pelican were; Eusebio, Page, Ionescu and "Rook"/us

[wispy pewter]

💀 oh

[vagrant ocean]

Ok, this might be the jazz cabbage, but I think I discovered a cool unintentional Tolkien reference in Halo.

The Neoteric Array has had NINE Halo Rings built for it, and in the LOTR, Sauron (who could be seen as an analogue to Faber) created NINE Rings of Power for the Kings of the Mortal Men. As Reclaimers, we were essentially gifted the rings, not unlike the Mortal Kings.

[exotic pulsar]

The XM820B4 Scorpion aka the "Hannibal" was armed with a laser-firing primary cannon and a Gauss repeater turret.

[fair hazel]

I want it back

[carmine sleet]

I hope they give it a unique cannon design if it does come back

I get why it's the same design as the standard Scorpion cannon but I wish it wasn't

[exotic pulsar]

The X stands for "Experimental". It was just a testbed for including direct energy weapons onto vehicles. There is also DEW variants of the Mantis and Wasp.

[stoic hamlet]

We’ve had laser weapons on vehicles for decades in Halo.

The Gremlin, and the Sparrowhawk come to mind.

Arguably the Spartan Laser, if the universe made sense, would have been vehicle mounted first, then made man-portable rather than the other way around.

[modest marsh]

I mean, do we have any reason to believe that’s not the case?

It’s referred to as the “Weapon/Anti-Vehicle Model 6 Grindell/Galilean Nonlinear Rifle” which itself could imply a few things

For one, it’s not the original form factor, there’s at least 5 prior iterations that had been fielded in some capacity

The “Grindell/Galilean” codename reminds me of the HRUNTING/YGGDRASIL naming convention

[stoic hamlet]

True, though the implication I’d always had is that it was made with GUNGNIR in mind. Though this could just be a coalescence of ideas that worked out

[modest marsh]

It could be that GUNGNIR is just part of wider laser weapon program umbrella

[stoic hamlet]

I.E the M6 was being made independently of the Spartan program and then was folded under the MJOLNIR stable when they realized the use case.

[modest marsh]

That’s what I always thought, or rather

Some version of the Spartan Laser was intended to be an “infantry scale” laser based portable antivehicle weapon

They may have iterated it with powered exoskeletons in mind

Which is where the Gungnir armor comes from

[odd bloom]

what is the hurdle the unsc has to make more normal-ish laser pistols and rifles etc that normal infantry could use

idk how those even interact with cov shields

it feels like lasers should be the easiest thing to block tho since they arent mass

[modest marsh]

Power generation, mainly

But also, guns being so primitive and simple makes them easy logistics wise

[versed salmon]

How do the Forerunners power their stuff?

[modest marsh]

It depends on what scale you’re talking about, but their equivalent to nuclear power is vacuum energy

[abstract arch]

Def didn’t know that👆🏽

[modest marsh]

(Eating other universes)

[odd bloom]

what about their railgun tech

its used in a sniper role too but why not assault rifle style ones

[modest marsh]

It’s always treated as special applications thing

Rare, expensive

[odd bloom]

they have a coilgun rifle too

[modest marsh]

Only used in very selective cases

[odd bloom]

literally a mac rifle

pretty neat

[modest marsh]

Yeah that one is Spartan exclusive

Well, “augmented personnel”

In theory someone wearing an exoskeleton with sufficient strength enhancement could use it

In any case, the UNSC can make exotic and futuristic weapons

However a recurring theme surrounding the entire logistical model of the UNSC is that it is heavily constrained by a limited budget in which they funnel resources only when it is deemed essential, and that is rarely going to trickle down to infantry scale equipment because very few things can survive a mag of lead whether human or alien

There are exceptions and those are dealt with accordingly using specialized, experimental equipment

Some are so powerful and effective in their intended role they are ostensibly common, like the Splaser, but on the whole there’s probably tens of thousands of SPNKRs for every one Splaser

That is to say, the SPNKR is also really good for what it is, so in most instances you wouldn’t really need anything more to begin with

[stoic hamlet]

Lasers also have their drawbacks.

[modest marsh]

“Hey im over here”

“Please shoot me”

[odd bloom]

everything turns to stare at the hill over there making red streaks at them

[modest marsh]

Pretty much, yeah

[odd bloom]

tbf tho

irl lasers are not visible in atmosphere normally

you wont just see it in daylight

youd at least need thermals

[modest marsh]

I’m most referring to optics

Most factions employ wide band EM imaging capabilities

[odd bloom]

covenant weapons for their part seem like ridiculously short range esp their plasma stuff with its very low velocity

[modest marsh]

It depends on the form factor

[odd bloom]

how were they hurting usnc ships at long ranges?

[modest marsh]

For one I would not take gameplay as gospel, both in terms of exact ballistic traits as well as distribution of weapons

[odd bloom]

shouldnt that plasma take ages to get to them

[modest marsh]

Yeah see that’s the thing, plasma torpedoes are a lot faster than other forms of plasma

Stephen Loftus once suggested they travel at 50% light speed

[odd bloom]

then why not spam every plasma gun as guided like that

[modest marsh]

I don’t think that holds up anymore

[stoic hamlet]

You would if there’s any sort of particulate, like dust, ash, etc.

And that would affect the convergence of the beam.

[odd bloom]

give all your troops aimbot

[odd bloom]

true

in dusty places or in burning areas it would show up

[modest marsh]

Again, it’s a form factor thing (and also there’s been retcons)

a ship based weapon system and infantry scale equipment have different operating principles, requirements, limitations

More recently Covenant ship based plasma have changed to be more principally similar to stereotypical beam weapons, and their plasma torpedoes were changed to be more similar to conventional missiles that use physical projectiles

The covenant likely can make plasma guns that can shoot further and faster than what we normally see (this is evidenced by the stalker rifle for instance) it’s just that this presumably comes with drawbacks they found undesirable

The stalker, going off its gameplay, is very slow firing and overheats quickly

Its probably fine as a marksman weapon but covenant battle doctrine mostly doesn’t require extended range capability and their other options are often straight upgrades

Beam rifle is significantly faster and more precise, focus rifle has sustained fire capability, carbine can rapid fire and quickly reload without overheat concerns

Needle rifle can explode stuff

Probably the best justification I could give the stalker is it likely has the smallest logistical strain compared to the aforementioned options since it’s already very similar to their other plasma weapons whereas the rest need custom ammo/power supplies/parts(?) to maintain

[modest marsh]

To back up what I’m saying here, I think it’s relatively simple to defend the idea that the Covenant don’t need much beyond CQB capability because they’re overwhelmingly the attacking force and are deployed en masse mainly from ships often directly into conflict zones

At least during the covenant war, a good chunk of their targets would’ve been unarmed civilians they’d basically plow through unopposed anyways

When they do defend, they almost always have snipers set up, as well as mounted turrets that are more than capable of saturating the enemy at range

[empty bloom]

I feel like the Stalker is an awkward middle ground between the Carbine/Needle Rifle and the Beam Rifle in that it's closest to a designated marksman rifle, but not an actual sniper rifle.

To the effect of it being specifically intended to be that sort of gun.

[modest marsh]

The stalker’s projectile is really weird because it’s still technically too slow to actually be used in its designated role but this is a problem with the ballistics of the games in general

The MA40’s bullet barely travels above Mach 1

[empty bloom]

Like, the Covenant Carbine is likely intended more as a low-cost easy-use suppression type weapon, ditto with the Needle Rifle; Both are flashy, loud, semi-explosive, and hazardous to even be near given the properties of their projectiles. Both have a fast rate of fire (To the point of one having a modification of full-auto, and the other by default being full-auto). They also fulfill an odd role in that they're ammo-fed weapons in an army dominated by battery-fed guns.

The Focus Rifle, similarly, would be harrowing to be a target of, given what we know of sentinel beams and how those actually work.

The Beam Rifle, obviously, is the actual sniper rifle of the Covenant, considering it's a neat and clean weapon that simply annihilates anything in the projectile's path.

The Stalker, conversely, is mechanically closest to a beam rifle, but it fires plasma instead of hypervelocity particles, which muddies the waters of what it's actually for.

Looking at the rest of the Covenant infantry catalogue, there's a few schools of semi-clear thought in how the Covenant handles most of its guns.

Battery fed plasma weapons tend to be of two thought schools; Portable and lightweight skirmishing weapons, or extremely heavy support weapons. There isn't really a 'medium' service weapon outside of the plasma repeater and stalker rifle, or maybe the bloodfuel weapons, however those are supposed to work.

Subanese Crystal weapons tend to be utilized more as a shock troop weapon, with some weird upper-end use against aircraft (Presumably to reduce function, rather than induce shock?)

Fuel Rod weapons are either, again, suppression via amount of fire and general precision (Covenant Carbine) or as anti-infantry/anti-air again (Fuel Rod Guns), but the two are so different I don't really consider them the same thing.

And particle beams and lasers are nigh-exclusively for sniping no matter the actual physical scale of the weapon, considering capital weapons.

I mean I know via conversations with AlphaBenson and Eternal Canadian that trying to determine an actual order of battle for the Covenant is an exercise in madness-it's insanely stupid to a degree unthinkable to even the most incompetent of real-world armies.

[orchid kettle]

at most, I kinda vibe with the idea that Jackal snipers basically exist to help out the dumb ankle biter grunts whenever a foe is a little too good at holding them off

Chief mentions in Silent Storm that the Covenant will sacrifice troops just to get a bead on an exposed enemy and I feel like that's a perfect Jackal-Grunt dynamic

[empty bloom]

I know they explicitly call out jackal snipers in Halo 3 era material as being too bloodthirsty to really be good snipers.

Which, lol, lmao

[orchid kettle]

I guess on some level it may make sense that the undisciplined pirates don't wanna sit around for hours or days at a time just for a chance to take down an enemy officer

they may appreciate a more target rich environment

i feel like shield jackals are the real weirdos here

they're obviously not about forming big organized shield lines or anything, which makes it feel like they just make a personal choice to sacrifice range and firepower for personal safety

[modest marsh]

Depends on depiction

We’ve seen them form shield walls a few times

[orchid kettle]

I kinda like said Jackals as essentially Unggoy wranglers

[modest marsh]

In Halo wars specifically, they use both shields and carbines

[empty bloom]

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure there's been more depictions of Sangheili forming shield walls with jackal shields, or at least equal.

[modest marsh]

Which I don’t see why they couldn’t

[orchid kettle]

yeah in GoO

which is funny when they just had their own personal shield arm thing in early builds of CE, and in one of the comics

but its stated to specifically be jackal shields

[empty bloom]

Which is doubly odd the more I think of it, considering a major thing about Sangheili is that they're kinda the reason the entire damn Covenant's ground forces operate like a WW1 raider force.

[orchid kettle]

I wish we focused a lot more on Elites fancying themselves as officers rather than a more generic warrior archetype

[empty bloom]

They're officers in the "WW2 Japanese Army officer with a sword blade attached to their katana" sense at this point.

[modest marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/centurion-cat-gif-15758099683439223679

[orchid kettle]

They would obviously still pride themselves on their own physical skill, but they wouldn't rush into suicidal charges like they're shown to do in First Strike

[empty bloom]

Complete with an insane rivalry with another major military organization in the same military, come to think of it.

[orchid kettle]

like if anything in CE, the Elites are notable for their ability to retreat, hide, and let their shields recharge

[stoic hamlet]

I wish they did it more. But Ivan see why they don’t.

[empty bloom]

Holy crap, the Covenant military is literally just the Japanese Army and Navy of WW2.

[orchid kettle]

compared to the grunts and jackals who retreat with basically no real plan

[orchid kettle]

feel like their love of big headdresses would play better into that as well

like the hierarchs like silly hats too but prelates aren't running into battle with a six foot tall crest on the top of their head

[modest marsh]

Their big hats makes it harder for them to hide

[wispy pewter]

sci if love making their fights like it's ww1

cough star wars

but the covenant glasses the planets first atleast

[vagrant ocean]

Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor

[vagrant ocean]

Well, WW1 is described as the most brutal form of war

Easy conflict to mimic to portray your war as insane

[stoic hamlet]

People don’t understand how insane WW1 was, in truth.

[wispy pewter]

this is advanced warfare

[stoic hamlet]

The shells per day, or even per hour, in some battles, are monumental.

[vagrant ocean]

A million shells were fired in the prelude to Verdun. The mountains of shells you see on some BF1 maps aren’t an exaggeration.

[stoic hamlet]

They’re not even correct. There should be more shells, lol

[vagrant ocean]

On the Western Front alone, 1.5 BILLION shells were fired.

[vagrant ocean]

That gave me a chuckle

[vagrant ocean]

50 billion rifle rounds were fired in the Great War.

[versed helm]

how are stats like these counted, like are there people who look at post war battlefields, collect and count the shells they can

[vagrant ocean]

I think they look at requisition forms and battlefield reports.

Now imagine the amount of bullets and shells fired in an almost 30 year conflict spread across a quarter of the galaxy.

[versed helm]

is the smg firing caseless rounds a recession indicator

[wispy pewter]

I need more boolets

the amount of space debris in the colonies atmopsheres

[vagrant ocean]

No, it’s an indicator of a well designed PDW. The suppressed version is perfect for assassinations and covert ops.

[empty bloom]

Look at yeh

All that advanced technology and you can't make an SMG chambered in the Magnum's caliber

[wispy pewter]

apparently it was 3 for 1 in the early days of the HCW and humanity somehow survived 30 years

an SMG with rifle rounds is called a rifle

[vagrant ocean]

Well, some of the cut SMGs from CE are chambered in a 12.7mm round, so if they ever canonize them we’ll have one. There’s also the M6Z.

[versed helm]

ima tell my grandkids this is what the smg-37 defender is

[wispy pewter]

i wish we get a splnter cell type halo game

[vagrant ocean]

The M7 platform is perfect for boarding actions, especially zero-g combat. The M20 is also good with the ejection port spitting the rounds over your shoulder.

[empty bloom]

The Magnum isn't chambered in rifle rounds.

[wispy pewter]

smgs probably better with non frontline troops

because atp just use the rifle

you're fighting shielded aliens

[vagrant ocean]

The M6 isn’t chambered in a rifle round. It’s basically firing a modded .500 Magnum.

[wispy pewter]

I see

Master Chief had a desert eagle pointed to his head before

[vagrant ocean]

.50 AE, enough to ring his ears,

[stoic hamlet]

A quarter of the Orion arm, not a quarter of the galaxy.

But yeah.

[empty bloom]

Razndom aside, there have been rifle caliber submachine guns before.

[vagrant ocean]

Assuming it’s using a 300 grain round, it’s delivering 1600 foot pounds of energy.

[wispy pewter]

apparently that revian got it out of a museum.
a 500 year old gun. out of a museum

[vagrant ocean]

As long as the parts are in good condition and it’s properly lubricated, a firearm of any age can be safely fired.

[vagrant ocean]

Closer to 600.

[wispy pewter]

no image perms I cant post the pic of the flintlock with a stand and sniper scope

[empty bloom]

The Chauchat-Ribeyrolles 1918 was a prototype made by the French in 1918, based upon the firing mechanism of the Chauchat LMG. It fired the same 8mm Lebel round as the French version of the Chauchat LMG.

It featured an 8 round magazine and was fully automatic.

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, I wouldn’t call that an SMG, as the role it was designed for was as a port firing weapon.

And SMG is a pretty strict term.

[empty bloom]

Blame the Frenchmen who named it, not me.

[wispy pewter]

smol MCX plays like an smg atleast in games i play

[vagrant ocean]

I will always blame the French.

[vagrant ocean]

That’s a PDW, but not an SMG. All SMGs are PDWs, but not all PDWs are SMGs. An SMG is specifically a select fire weapon chambered in a pistol round.

[empty bloom]

Either way it's basically an overgrown PDW, and it didn't get adopted both due to time and due to the fact that an 8x50mm round is overkill for what the gun was meant for, which during development, was self-defense.

[wispy pewter]

so does p90 count

[vagrant ocean]

Which was just to shoot Germans trying to get in a tank

[vagrant ocean]

Yes. The M20 from Halo 5 is basically a P90, even shoots the same 5.7mm round.

[empty bloom]

Apparently they also made a 16 round box mag version.

Which is cool.

[vagrant ocean]

The Chauchat-Ribeyrolles 1918 is closer in design and purpose as the M231 Port Firing Weapon.

[wispy pewter]

WW1 SMGs tried putting the magazine every direction except downwards

[empty bloom]

I do find the M231 really funny, speaking of port weapons, because something about the concept of making a compact M16 is really funny and stupid.

Specifically the buffer tube/spring aspect.

Like, it just comes across as funny to me, because you basically just can't get rid of that part of the rifle. It's one of the reasons I don't care for the guns.

[vagrant ocean]

Not true, the Thompson was designed as such, same with the Standschütze Hellriegel M1915.

[vagrant ocean]

Some manufacturers have eliminated the need for the buffer tube, Olympic Arms being the pioneers.

[empty bloom]

I know they have, especially due to things like Cali-compliant models.

Weirdly enough I actually love how a california-compliant AR looks.

[vagrant ocean]

The grips lowkey kinda sick.

[empty bloom]

It's a shame the gun community is so relentlessly toxic, especially to someone like me.

Ah well. At least it means I don't have to put up with Fudd lore.

... On that note I really need to get rid of my copper Punisher skull grips for a 1911, literally the most cringe thing I own.

[vagrant ocean]

The 1911 is the finest semi-auto pistol ever made. Back to back world war champion.

[empty bloom]

And I own a freaking fursuit.

[vagrant ocean]

Replace them with a photo of Marilyn Monroe

[vagrant ocean]

Could be worse

[empty bloom]

I don't even own a 1911 lmao

My dad just gave me them to encourage me to buy one

[vagrant ocean]

The 1911 is a dream to shoot.

[empty bloom]

I know, it ain't bad. I just prefer other sidearms.

[wispy pewter]

5-7

[vagrant ocean]

If I had it my way I’d carry a Colt Peacemaker.

[empty bloom]

Expensive and gimmicky.

I do find it funny how not only is the first revolver in Halo a missile launcher, technically, the first break action shotgun is a Brute gun.

And the first gravity hammer bayonet is on said shotgun.

[wispy pewter]

those tiny missiles somehow have the abilty to track

[empty bloom]

That's not that weird.

[versed helm]

spnkr is also technically a revolver hey

[vagrant ocean]

Look up the XM25,

[empty bloom]

I don't really count the SPNKr.

[vagrant ocean]

Cuz it’s a toob, not a cylinder.

Also the first revolver was a shotgun.

[wispy pewter]

bruh

[vagrant ocean]

The Mauler.

[empty bloom]

Hell, look up DARPA EXACTO rounds

[versed helm]

😔 no quad(+) barrel spnkr variant,,

[empty bloom]

(Which for whatever reason literally only show up in Ghost Recon Future Soldier and nowhere else)

[versed helm]

or one with one barrel but its an enormous rocket

[wispy pewter]

spanker works as a stinger and rpg at the same time

[empty bloom]

I don't think the mag on the Mauler actually revolves.

[vagrant ocean]

Sniper Ghost Warrior has them.

[vagrant ocean]

It do, I seen it

Lemme double check

[empty bloom]

Also does that really count as a revolver any more than the Bulldog's mag does?

[vagrant ocean]

It do

[vagrant ocean]

A detachable cylinder is still a sylinder

[empty bloom]

I mean a cylinder doesn't mean it revolves

[versed helm]

why you think bulldog has a cylinder instead of a box mag

[vagrant ocean]

But the cylinder on the mauler and bulldog revolve

[empty bloom]

I mean hypothetically a revolver's mag could be any shape that still allows for rotation.

[vagrant ocean]

Ergonomics and reliability.

[vagrant ocean]

Turret revolvers are a thing, ForgottenWeapons has a few videos on them

[empty bloom]

Honestly, the Bulldog still isn't doing great on ergo even with a cylinder mag.

Pumps and cylinders don't mix too good.

[vagrant ocean]

Misriah isn’t known for ergonomics that appeal to our 21st century ideas.

[versed helm]

would a box mag not be a simpler design? cus sure the cylinder is just a shape for the shells to slot into, but there's the added complexity of the rotation mechanism

[empty bloom]

Misriah Armory testing be like: Ṫ̶͓̎̎h̵͋̎̚͝i̴͎̅̐́s̷̡̮̓̀ ̵̖̘̈́̏ȟ̶̅͛͂u̷͈͓͛m̵̯̠̦̆a̵̳̚͜n for̶̿̉̄͠m̴͒̑̍̈́ ̵͖̳̙́ỉ̸̛̽͝s̸ ľ̤i̸̓͐̉̃m̸̂it̳i̴̛̅̏̓n̴̳̣̳̑g

[frigid heart]

Yes lol misriah is Kel Tec but from another reality

[vagrant ocean]

Shotguns fed by detachable box mags are notoriously unreliable, there’s still a lot of R&D to be done.

[versed helm]

gotcha

[empty bloom]

I so badly want to like the Bulldog but like

No

Bad gun, icky gun, stinky

[vagrant ocean]

Misriah Armory: “Our Machine God assures our weapons are perfect”

[versed helm]

the smg / h3 shotty models make me feel better about it

[empty bloom]

I mean the only two Halo shotgun designs I really like are either the Reach (Begrudingly, might I add) and 4/5 models.

[vagrant ocean]

Lowkey I would love a Halo game where we can swap ammo types. I wanna fire an 8 gauge slug at a Bravo Kilo’s brainpan

[empty bloom]

I hated the Halo OT shotty.

[versed helm]

do we know why, like is it the shells? they have that extra lip of brass compared to it being inverse on traditional bullets right

[vagrant ocean]

You hated the over slung toob

[frigid heart]

I think the top load is a very interesting idea and I actually think about it a lot

[empty bloom]

I do and I will not apologize for that.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s a myriad of issues. We’ve been working on it since Nam.

[wispy pewter]

Like usas?

[frigid heart]

Yeah

[vagrant ocean]

The USAS was discontinued years ago, mainly due to legislation than reliability.

[empty bloom]

Like, I'm loathe to admit I like Reach anything, but I'll admit that the M45 of that game is fine.

A bit too much picatinny for my liking, but it's... fine.

And half the reason my favorite design is the 4/5 shotty is because I'm a huge sucker for nickel plating and simple rails.

[vagrant ocean]

Early Halo suffers too much from rule of cool in terms of design.

[versed helm]

ce sniper scope 😳

[empty bloom]

Everything is designed like a freaking F2000.

It's dumb!

[vagrant ocean]

Without the ambidextrous ejection port. Which is the F2000’s best feature.

[frigid heart]

Weapons of the future of yesterday

[vagrant ocean]

My Marine OC can’t use 80% of UNSC infantry weapons cuz he’s left handed.

[empty bloom]

Like I am a strong defender of 4/5 weapon design as straight up, by a country mile, being the best in the franchise.

There's so much detail.

[vagrant ocean]

Well they tried to mix in some practicality and realism.

[empty bloom]

From 5's AR having a brass deflector to the sniper scope having that obfuscating hexagon pattern.

[vagrant ocean]

This is what happens when you give autistic people millions to make their hyperfixation.

[empty bloom]

Sure, but also, I just straight up love 5's weapon design.

I'mma delete that weird message lmao

[vagrant ocean]

Made me feel like it was a new era for mankind in every way.

[empty bloom]

Anyways

I actually really don't like Halo Infinite's Hydra.

[empty bloom]

that was part of the charm. It married new and old in a way that was a lot better than the arms expo style of the OT.

Like, the closest the OT got to 'cutting edge modern' was the M7S.

And that wasn't even in the OT.

That was in the glorified DLC for the OT.

[versed helm]

you bring up cool aspects of them though i feel they have so much going on, it feels like too much
at least visually. very busy. i wish they kept these aspects but found some happy inbetween of "boring" and "halo" without dipping too far into "impractical sci-fi overcomplex mumbo jumbo"

[vagrant ocean]

But looking at both design philosophies I can rationalize the “arms expo” look for the OT weapons as it being the result of time and resource constraints.

[frigid heart]

That’s why if we get a ce remake with these 2000s future guns, every marine needs to wear UCP

[wispy pewter]

UNSC loves bullpups too much

[vagrant ocean]

Bullpups have numerous advantages,

[empty bloom]

That's the thing, they really aren't that bad, and I'm not sure where that stereotype came from.

[wispy pewter]

Like the L28

[empty bloom]

It's like how people say the Halo 5 Scorpion is 'overbuilt' and 'greebly' but an actual inspection of it shows it isn't.

If anything, it's the only realistically designed Scorpion of the Franchise.

[versed helm]

theres a lot of spots i can point out on them as like "you're telling me over 500 years in the future we're making guns out of a thousand parts, that look smooth until you squint where you see a ton of hard edges that would catch on everything?"

[vagrant ocean]

You mean L85, and that was just a garbage gun all around. For every L85 we have an AUG or P90. The length of an AUG A1 is the same as an M4 carbine but has the same barrel length as an M16.

[empty bloom]

But like, which gun, though?

Like the MA5 whatever in 5 is super smooth, for example

[versed helm]

i have this kind of ick with many of the guns like what is going on with the ar? basically everywhere on the gun you can identify a seam the immediate question is why? why is this here? what does this add?

[empty bloom]

But it's very smooth!

[versed helm]

OT AR that "heatshield thing" on top was what like 3 or 4 parts now it looks like 12+

[empty bloom]

Which is more a reflection of the reality of such a cumbersome setup than anything else

I don't have embed perms anymore, but there's a picture showing a full breakdown of the Halo 5 AR, and a lot of it involves pointing out exactly why the old ARs look like they do.

[versed helm]

dms are open if youd like

[empty bloom]

It's not really that important. The overall reality of it is that it's supposed to be a realistic take on the messy silliness of earlier ARs and how that's going to look on a real world platform.

It's like how the MA37/MA40 has a similar issue

[frigid heart]

The MA series is the epitome 2000s war futurism. Polymer housed, caseless, bullpup, individual targeting system, ammo counter, all those brand new things from back then

It’s literally the OICW project

[versed helm]

yeah reach ar also kinda gets me, i get they wanted more detail and stuff, but man it all just looked so skeletal, its like they forgot snow and mud and dust exist

[empty bloom]

No integrated mini grenade launcher

smh were they even trying

[wispy pewter]

Oh MA stands for misiriah armory or something

They should introduce new human guns in Halo 7

[frigid heart]

And it’s not even piggybacked on top of the rifle

[wispy pewter]

Something energy related

[empty bloom]

Personally, I blame our schools.

[versed helm]

this is also kinda the reason i hope for more ma5k models, hopium copium something like og ar, smooth and cute like my brain

[empty bloom]

The fact I can't put the HW AR model on the MA5K is a travesty.

[versed helm]

we have the hazard ma40 skin and thats close enough for me, i would so give up og ar on the ar for og ar on the avenger instead

tongue twister

[frigid heart]

I am hoping for an Aliens pulse rifle model but I know it’ll never happen😢

[empty bloom]

NGL, I wish 343i was more crossover friendly for Infinite.

I wanted a Lancer AR model.

Or a Hammerburst Commando model.

[versed helm]

yall see the hcs shop update

idk if that gets news or not, but its got the old needler

[empty bloom]

I'm far more interested in the human shock rifle tbh

[versed helm]

it is dope

that is, rather

[stoic hamlet]

The L85 by now is more than fine.

It’s a great platform, or so I’ve heard.

It just had teething issues, like the early M16’s.

[vagrant ocean]

After how many redesigns?

And the Brits buying HK so they could make the A3

[stoic hamlet]

Apparently only 1? The L85A2 is well liked from what I know.

Military rifles being absolutely terrible in their first iteration, or having unforeseen problems, is par for the course:

The French Lebel

The Austrian Dryse

The Canadian Ross

The US M16

Etc

Isn’t the US also now dealing with this again with their new rifle?

[coarse hamlet]

from what ive heard there arent any super major problems besides the fact that its a battle rifle(fires a fullsized rifle cartidge rather than an intermediate) and bears the drawbacks of a battle rifle

it would be neat if 343halostudios paid some people involved in procurement or an enthusiest in that area to draft fictional design requirement papers and testing ground reports on things like the earliest ma5 or scorpion tank

[stoic hamlet]

All the infinite base weapons had decals on them, listing stuff like proof marks, manufacturer markings, different markings based on weapons origin, all really in depth.

The person who did those was laid off, though, so none of the weapon models have them.

[coarse hamlet]

record profits+layoffs strikes again 😔

[coarse hamlet]

you wouldnt happen to have a link going over those?

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

Fun fact, the base VK78, MA40, and BR75 models have proof marks stating they were manufactured in 2552, 2557, and 2559, respectively.

The VK also lists its calibre in German spelling it with a K.

[stoic hamlet]

Halopedia has some, but yeah, I’ve compiled them all. I’ll DM you.

I wish I had embed perms. D:

[winged canopy]

What's the scariest thing in the halo universe

I know flood but lore from them

[wispy pewter]

Boo 👻

[carmine sleet]

I have perms so I can do this

Noooo! The gif isn't working anymore and is now a jpg for some reason

[vagrant ocean]

The XM7 will never be standard issue. Too many issues and the ammo screws with our logistics.

[odd bloom]

the electronic mechanism is pretty interesting

[vagrant ocean]

The XM7 will prolly be relegated to a DMR, it causes too much logistical issues with NATO and our allies.

[coarse hamlet]

gesticulates at the m16 when has that stopped us

[vagrant ocean]

The M16 is at least NATO compliant. An SA80 magazine or Type 89 magazine will work in an M16 or M4. Name a single NATO county that uses .277.

It’d be like if we suddenly changed from .50 BMG to a new 13mm round.

[coarse hamlet]

In the late 60s when the m16 was adopted fully adopted? Nato didnt adopt 556 until 70

[vagrant ocean]

Which is unlike to happen. It appears that .50 BMG is the perfect round. 100 years of continuous production

630 by the time Halo takes place.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s a real shame what happened with the EM-2, considering it was discarded for the NATO/US comparability.

I’ll give the French credit for sticking to their guns… literally.

[stoic hamlet]

On that note, I really like that the VK78, because it’s made by another company, has different markings and etc to the Misriah weapons.

[carmine sleet]

Aye, even if most the human weapons are still Misriah, it's nice we're finally seeing more weapon manufacturers having their weapons featured in game

Like, I kinda wish the Bulldog wasn't one of their weapons and was made by a different company

[stoic hamlet]

Weirdly, neither the MK50 or the Hydra have proof marks.

Nor the S7 and SPNKR. Everything else does, though.

[modest marsh]

I feel like given Infinite’s own handwaved 3D printer gun technology you’d need to justify why anything would even have proof marks when a good chunk of them were essentially made-to-order and fielded without any certification

Of course in a more detailed oriented game there would be a clearer delineation between actual mass produced weapons and the wildcat ghost guns that the UNSC and banished can apparently produce

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

[vagrant ocean]

I fr would love a Halo game where I can swap ammo types. I wanna fire an 8 gauge slug at a grunt.

[stoic hamlet]

I remember before we knew what its lore was, a few lore peeps thought the one store-sold OSTEO AR was basically a mini-fabbed colony variation. Super cheap, super basic, really poorly made, but still usable.

But no, it’s actually a custom made CBRN variant. Shame.

[vagrant ocean]

Or use HE rockets on jackal swarms

[stoic hamlet]

I really hope, when it releases, someone makes a Halo mod for Menace.

Because it basically allows for everything I’ve ever wanted when it comes to how the UNSC/CMA would do things.

[modest marsh]

That’s the Trenchbroom bulldog

[vagrant ocean]

Lowkey I do like the CMA skins.

[stoic hamlet]

Broadly, yeah.

But I mean with regards to like, pure looks.

[modest marsh]

Yeah I guess it would help a lot if there was actual visual signposting to distinguish how the gun was made and under what circumstances

Because you’d think there’d be more obvious evidence of different manufacturing methods between minifactored guns and those that were made in an assembly line

They don’t necessarily need to perform differently or anything but if the literal tools and materials used to make them are different, then they should probably look different too

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm.

But yeah, I mean, look at the MA40 MODE MS, if that doesn’t scream “made with bargain bin materials in short order” I don’t know what does.

But then it’s lore doesn’t match that at all, lol.

[modest marsh]

I see the vision but tbh I would prefer the aesthetic of minifactored gear to incorporate fewer metallic finishes and largely avoid hard angles to convey the fact it was produced in a similar manner as covenant equipment given that assembly vats are conceptually similar

Maybe be a bit more skeletal to convey the idea that it’s comprised of a limited pool of resources

[last anchor]

The Bandit being made under liscence is cool too

[fading flume]

Who do y’all think is the most skilled Sanghelli swordsman (if they dueled with every other Elite swordmaster in history, they’d have the highest success rate)? I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion. I think Rtas, Jega, and Thel are strong competitors. I do think Fal might deserve this title because, while animation can exaggerate the speed and sometimes the size of enemies, it certainly doesn’t affect the numbers, and the size of those Mkelegoko aren’t unheard of, not to mention it was consistent in the film.

[stoic hamlet]

Probably someone (many someone’s) we’ve never seen before. The idea that just because they have names that we the audience knows means they’d be competitive at something is more than a bit absurd.

[empty bloom]

Dah Mabster cheebf

[vagrant ocean]

Fal 'Chavamee was a very famous duelist.

[fading flume]

I mean among whom we know of

[fading flume]

Mabster Cheebf is genuinely a good name, not gonna lie

[wispy pewter]

Jaime 'Lannister

[vagrant ocean]

I’d like a game set in the Blooding Years

[tropic forge]

I’d really like a novel set in the Blooding Years. It really seems like it would be the perfect time with the faction interplay—alliances forming and breaking, perpetual civil conflicts with dozens of factions. It would be amazing in the right hands.

[vagrant ocean]

I’d prefer a game, the Arbiter needs more screen time.

Also the potential designs for new alien weapons would be sick.

[wispy pewter]

A game set in 2561 is better

[vagrant ocean]

I do hope HS keeps some of the lore from the Believe marketing campaign, and eventually lay the Chief to rest in some form, cuz I’m not sure how much longer Steve Downs will be able to voice him. Hes getting up there in years.

[midnight sequoia]

AI chief will exist soon

Perfect AI chief

[dusk jetty]

Perfect for 0.01% of the population

[vagrant ocean]

No. It’d cause a massive backlash.

[dusk jetty]

There’s very few things that would make me drop a franchise entirely and push me to boycotting, ai is one of them though

[stoic hamlet]

Also Downes has been vocal about not wanting it, IIRC.

[carmine sleet]

If Downes can't continue as the character but HS still want to tell more stories with Chief, they should recast

[high elbow]

Real. I’d much rather they recast or let Chief enter the big cryopod in the sky. I wouldn’t mind if the plot followed Jerome or some other spartan for a while.

[carmine sleet]

Use the multiplayer Spartan maybe? Like, give them the odd voiceline like with Six but don't make them into too much of a character

[high elbow]

I like that idea. Makes it more personal to the player. No caves though, let’s not go through that again

[carmine sleet]

The caves won't be natural formations, that's the best I can do

[twin parcel]

...oh god I just realized how much time has passed by since the days of Halo 3

Steve Downes is getting older and death comes for all of us, it's gonna be a sad day on earth when that man passes (or retires)

I say if Downes retires, Chief does too. Give him a good comfy civilian life like Maria has.

[fading flume]

Not a half bad idea

[twin parcel]

Besides, there's hundreds of possibilities for spin offs. space combat flight games like a halo version of Elite Dangerous, Another ODST game. Hell, I think that if Chief gets retired they should use Red Team as the new MCs

Jerome would be a good protagonist and his character and accomplishments are already extremely fleshed out from Halo Wars.

In general, I think Red Team would be a great pick if 343 decided to retire blue team and the chief from protagonist duties.

[stoic hamlet]

Have him finally marry Parisa.

[twin parcel]

They're already accomplished and mostly well liked by the community and most Halo fans I've met say that Jerome is an awesome character. They're also SPARTAN IIs which makes them that much better for fitting the role. They're well liked fleshed out characters who've seen probably just as much as the chief has.

[twin parcel]

Could work, although it really depends considering the amount of time that has passed since they were young and the fact most SPARTANs (aside from the IVs) from what I've seen age slower than regular people.

Although cryo probably made it so that people in the UNSC Navy probably age slower too.

[modest marsh]

Chief is biologically in his late 30s if we’re being realistic

[twin parcel]

If Downes retires then Chief and Blue Team should too imho, the series doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It feels a bit stagnant and Microsoft doesn't seem to be really focusing on their main flagship game.

[modest marsh]

IVs are actually the only ones explicitly stated to have longer lifespans, but there’s no reason to think this doesn’t also apply to the other gens

Namely, they all go through a battery of gene therapy, which would include telomere lengthening/hardening

It’s also why Spartans haven’t died from cancer 50x over

[twin parcel]

Neat, aside from the sometimes fatal augmentations, being a SPARTAN doesn't seem half bad! I wouldn't get wrinkles until my 50s.

[modest marsh]

If anything, it deages you

[twin parcel]

I'd give my left lung to have that if it fixes my back pain I have everyday.

Possibility of dying from aliens does not concern me.

[coarse hamlet]

are 2s and 3s allowed to retire? wouldve thought oni would "cleanup" their crimes against humanity before they got the chance to write memoirs about being brainwashed into obedient pawns for the government

[empty bloom]

I mean, you'd actually give both your lungs. Every Spartan IV's entire torso is hollowed out and refilled, no organ is left untouched.

[twin parcel]

I chug monster energy combined with a slug of whisky, I smoke like a chimney, and I am a crotchety a hole . The covenant should fear me for they interrupted me in the middle of watching the baseball game.

[empty bloom]

IVs don't even have their original spleen. It is completely replaced.

[twin parcel]

Worth it.

Provided I'm under anaesthesia during the augmentations

[empty bloom]

I mean, you become a nearly 7' posthuman supersoldier who can punch holes in Sangheili heads.

Not exactly a downgrade.

[carmine sleet]

Oh to be a 7' tall person

[empty bloom]

The problem is that you go through training so brutal even seasoned ODSTs tap out due to the strain before the augs.

[carmine sleet]

But then I wouldn't be able to do my 5'5'' gremlin stuff

[twin parcel]

Honestly? It seems like an ONI thing to do if they allowed SPARTAN IIs and IIIs to retire. "Look at us! We provide veteran support to our walking walls of death super soldiers! This is why the UNSC is great and the insurrection is TOTALLY unjustified!"

Seems like something ONI would do just for PR.

[empty bloom]

The insurrection isn't caused by lack of martial support, it's caused by lack of independence. Them 'retiring' old Spartans is just kind of a 'cool? Still hate you though'

[vagrant ocean]

Maria and Randall birth retired

[twin parcel]

Can't be worse than my Sergeant during basic training.

[empty bloom]

Though, the insurrection's back was broken before the IIs were even a thing.

[empty bloom]

uh

[twin parcel]

That's a joke,

[vagrant ocean]

The IIs were mainly made to deal the death blow and as preemptive measures against future uprisings.

[twin parcel]

Although my Sergeant did waterboard me in a foxhole "to baptize you, you filthy heathen recruit!" Even though I'm a baptised Catholic.

[empty bloom]

I mean I'd say they were arguably already in a full tailspin well before the Spartans popped up.

[twin parcel]

All in good fun, God I love the Military.

[empty bloom]

Look at yeh. No fleets, no armies. Just a space station and a Colonel.

[vagrant ocean]

Even a tailspin can cause damage, better to snuff it out as much as possible. And that was mainly the Eridanus cell.

[empty bloom]

See that's the kind of story that strikes me as a lie, but then, I've heard horror stories of what was happening before the USAF shut down training to unscrew it.

Like bleach push ups, which I still don't really believe.

I suppose yours is more believable.

[twin parcel]

Honestly if I was suddenly transplanted into Halo I'd choose the ODST. Careening from low orbit into a hot LZ in a metal coffin sounds awesome.

[empty bloom]

You need military service to be a Spartan anyways, tbf.

[twin parcel]

Unless your a six year old with good genes.

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, haven’t some been pulled out of basic? Or was I stoned?

[empty bloom]

No, though some of those IVs were very young.

The only alleged exception had still been a member of the UNSC Military during the war, and that was Vale.

She got out, went scientist/diplomat, then rejoined as a Spartan.

[twin parcel]

The IVs are all prior soldiers though, so I imagine that they're quite a bit more personable than the IIIs and IVs

IIS

Numbers ain't my strong suit. I was hit on the head too many times.

[empty bloom]

Still with they went with a more 'gritty' personality for Tanaka, considering she's an Army Combat Engineer.

You'd think she'd have been more grumpy.

[vagrant ocean]

One of the things people complained about the most with the IVs were how “unprofessional” they were.

[twin parcel]

Most soldiers I know curse worse than sailors, make really offensive jokes and are maybe mentally insane if they've been in combat.

[empty bloom]

They didn't like IVs being unprofessional, they didn't like IVs being professional, then they believed IVs were professional and that it was a good thing. Halo fans don't actually know what they want, they just want to complain.

[twin parcel]

Soldiers are NOT professional unless they're inspection ready, that means they ain't combat Ready.

Combat Arms MOS guys like me are probably the most unprofessional guys in the military.

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I always hated unprofessionalism with a passion. We ain't Russians. Get your act together.

[stoic hamlet]

The older Master Bombardier I knew was really stoic, but he liked to pull pranks. Did it with the straightest face ever though.

[twin parcel]

I've never seen an infantryman be a cold stone stoic soldier. They're always cussing and doing dumb shit, when rounds are going off we're definitely obscenities and telling OPFOR to go (bleep) themselves.

I have to remember I cannot swear here 😭

[empty bloom]

It's why I was training to be an officer before the EO. Maybe having someone point out all that manly man bull would do something.

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah the people I know who were combat vets are absolute mutants

[thorn spindle]

i liked being e4 could just strug idk man what do i know

[stoic hamlet]

Depends on the unit, I think.

But yeah.

[empty bloom]

Ah well. The degree direction is still nice.

[twin parcel]

Know a few guys who fought in Kandahar round '06 in my reserve unit and they're all mutated maniacs.

[stoic hamlet]

Most guys are not “corporate professional”.

But I’d say they are “professional”.

[vagrant ocean]

The idea of a prim and proper military was one planted by Patton and it infected everyone.

[empty bloom]

The US Military publicly pridesd itself on being a professional military, and that's one of the reasons it was effective.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s been a thing for centuries all over the world.

[twin parcel]

Professionally Unprofessional is what I like to call it, you ask us to go take that hill? We'll do it but you have to tell us to do it clean if you want it to still be a hill.

[vagrant ocean]

As long as it’s effective and at least marginally organized, idrc. Lowkey we need to bring beards back.

[empty bloom]

People who don't embrace the proper disciplined warrior poet lifestyle do not live long.

The statistically best soldier in the US Military is a 25 year old college graduate in good but not perfect physical condition.

[twin parcel]

Thank God I'm in the Canadian Army and not the US. Beards are allowed here.

[stoic hamlet]

What regiment?

[twin parcel]

That'd give away my general location to a server full of thousands

[vagrant ocean]

The US military is the epitome of malicious compliance. Just look up what happened when a 155mm shell struck the Wisconsin.

[twin parcel]

I've hear the story lol

[stoic hamlet]

Fair.

[vagrant ocean]

For King and Country?

[empty bloom]

A lot of the effectiveness was tied to the professionalism it instilled and the autonomy it gave lower officers.

[twin parcel]

O'er the hills and far away.

but yes, I do swear an oath of allegiance to the crown when I joined.

[empty bloom]

It's one of the reasons US troops were generally more effective. Platoon and lower commands were given leeway to pursue specific operational objectives as they saw fit with what they had. This is different from a lot of other militaries, where troops have a significant lack of autonomy.

[twin parcel]

Was one of the most important memories I have tbh, swearing the oath.

[stoic hamlet]

Taken from the Prussian system, I believe.

[twin parcel]

Oh, to be a Prussian Mercenary in the 1700s....

[empty bloom]

🤨

[twin parcel]

Firing cannons all day as I blow out my eardrums...

[stoic hamlet]

I meant the Prussia of the later 19th century, to be clear. But yeah.

[thorn spindle]

ye always nice when they let enlisted people do their job not have some officer breathing down at all times

[empty bloom]

I mean I'd argue that flexibility is also just common sense.

Low-trust societies generally operate worse due to requiring more vetting and ego-satiating.

[twin parcel]

That's why the E4 mafia works.

[empty bloom]

Less communication, especially less accurate communication, leads to breakdowns.

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah.

But around that time, Prussia was a big proponent of that system, whereas most other militaries were not.

[twin parcel]

E4 mafia will always find a solution, even if it ain't legal. Especially if it isn't illegal.

[empty bloom]

High unit initiative, et cetera.