#lore-and-universe

1 messages · Page 105 of 1

modest marsh
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This reminds me of how Ubisoft is weirdly tongue in cheek about framing themselves as an evil corporation in their own games via allegory

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“Wouldn’t it be funny if the developers of our game were actually the bad guys trying to take over the world”

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Or whatever they were doing with Captain lazerhawk lol

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Anyone remember when Windows rolled out Cortana a year before Halo 5’s release?

stoic hamlet
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We need to actually see Spartans commit some questionable acts.

It’s why Breaking Strain is probably my favourite Halo story outside of Ghosts of Onyx and Contact Harvest, because it directly calls out the hero worship and presents Spartans as they’re actually described to be: inhumanly stoic, utterly focused on their mission, like coiled springs ready to pounce and with no off switch.

modest marsh
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some would point to SUNSPEAR but, well...

stoic hamlet
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When the Captain of the crashed Dark Was The Night thinks the Spartan III aboard their ship had gone rogue, but in his mind he’s just reassigned himself to an pverwatch position to identify Covenant threats. When the captain orders him back to the ship to help deal with the colonists, the Spartan immediately assumes he means with lethal force, and doesn’t actually have an issue with it, just the idea that it would be a waste of his skillset.

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The issue he has with killing the fishermen isn’t moral, it’s practical.

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But if he’s ordered to do it, he would.

modest marsh
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You know, what the show did with Soren isn't vastly different from what I thought might be a good angle on the character as a dark reflection of what the Spartan program stands for, but where it stumbled i think is making him into a resigned common thug rather than an actual leader

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also his disability is meaningless in terms of how it affects him which i thought was a ridiculous change

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the well's already been poisoned by Ilsa Zane but he seems like an obvious pick for """evil rival Spartan"""

stoic hamlet
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I feel like that’s inherently the wrong way to go, personally.

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Using “dark mirrors” in that sense takes away the idea that the Spartans were ever dark themselves. They’re inherently a double edged sword, thrust into a heroic role when they were never intended to be so, and I can’t exactly see them really acting the part, it goes against who they are as characters.

modest marsh
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Im not sure i agree when Spartans are shown to take the high road in the majority of stories they've been in at this point but i realize your objection to that is it's revisionist of the first few novels to characterize them that way

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ie Chief before first strike would've sacrificed johnson without hesitation, meanwhile in Oblivion/Collateral Damage he sticks his neck out for rebels just because he feels bad for them

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I think the storytelling so far has remained consistent on the idea that Spartans, in contrast to their cold exterior and background, are compassionate and humanitarian at their core and are motivated by their willingness to make personal sacrifices for the common good

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They don't and won't just "follow orders" blindly even if the intended goal of the program was to instill a sense of duty to the point of carrying out crimes against fellow man because of a Machiavellian world view said it was optimal

modest marsh
# modest marsh some would point to SUNSPEAR but, well...

in the case of SUNSPEAR, even Grey Team had reservations about using the NOVA when at the time they had every reason to believe the Elites were actively carrying out the total annihilation of the human race and had to vote on it

stoic hamlet
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It’s less that its revisionist ahd more that you don’t need to have them save a cat in a tree to have them embody heroic values.

The Oblivion and Collateral damage example is actually interesting when contrasted with Shadows of Reach. Where John is far more hostile to the Reavians than anyone else….

…but, he does breifly think about being more violent towards the Castaways in Oblivion, but decides against it because he doesn’t consider it optimal.

But that section feels out of place when taken with the ending of the book, and it’s part of why I find Oblivion a really weird read, I’m not sure what Denning was going for, in truth.

modest marsh
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I think even Denning realized that it would be sloppy to make Chief honest to himself about his willingness to compromise his mission on moral grounds alone

stoic hamlet
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Yeah, likely.

Overall though it reads as a really odd sort of ending.

John seems too trusting almost out of nowhere, and he gets saved from punishment because he’s given a reverse kangaroo court where Cole and Halsey overrule the JAG officer.

It reads less like John gets rewarded for a good deed, and more that Spartans can do whatever they want and not see punishment.

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Which is… a dangerous precedent to set.

hardy swan
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I think it’s dumb and it should have been a war between the countries on earth instead

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Anyways it shouldn’t be a game because no one will play it

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Halo is carried by 117

modest marsh
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anyways, the point of the interplanetary wars was it created the need of a unified military presence off of earth, its why the UNSC even exists

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if the big conflict between the Friedens and Koslovics was all on Earth there isn't a coherent reason why existing state militaries couldnt handle it

stoic hamlet
modest marsh
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True

stoic hamlet
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And the Wars work not only as a way to make the UNSC what it was, but also to show their hubris. Per the 2022 Encyclopedia they informed the UNSC strategies for the Insurrection and were part of why the Insurrection got as bad a it did, because the UNSC just wasn’t prepared for interstellar policing and warfighting.

empty bloom
modest marsh
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I do get the opinion that you don’t have halo without the “super solider fantasy” aspect, but ODST gets away with it by having you play as the next best thing

empty bloom
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Oh and ODST, forgor.

modest marsh
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And fireteam raven

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And technically the first few missions of Spartan strike were done by ODSTs in universe, you just play as a Spartan for gameplay purposes

stoic hamlet
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It depends on what you consider Halo, really.

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If you mean Halo as a game, then I can kinda understand.

But Halo as a universe is definitely not Spartans… even if the fans and 343 intends it to be.

modest marsh
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I think the mentality is if you don’t have Spartans, then you gotta have other “iconic” things like Covenant/Banished, Forerunner locations, and the like

stoic hamlet
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It’s a crippling mentality, IMO.

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But yeah.

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It’s an understandable one by “the suits”.

minor sky
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Right, hence why part of me hesitates to want stuff from that era. It would take a particular level of skill to keep it nuanced and insightful. Maybe a trilogy of novels would be best suited for it, idk. Besides its not like the people who would sympathize with the Facists can read to begin with

orchid kettle
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I kinda feel like the only necessary part of Halo are the aliens

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Like we've had books and stories entirely about the aliens from alien PoVs

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but we've never done a purely human story unless you count like, Saints Testimony because AIs are digitized human brains

modest marsh
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ilovebees is like 99% human

orchid kettle
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but bees is in the title

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where is the titular Bee

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🐝

modest marsh
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Dude, you’re embarrassing me

orchid kettle
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Point is I guess, it feels like as long as you have people reacting to the existence of aliens, either as invaders or wary allies or whatever, its Halo

modest marsh
orchid kettle
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I guess the Created occupy this gray area where Smart AI is only a scifi concept to us but to any of the humans they're a fixture of everyday life

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and they use war machines from another alien race but those machines are obviously not characters

modest marsh
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Smart AI were first developed around the interplanetary wars…

orchid kettle
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except the Warden I guess

modest marsh
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In fact it’s a little alarming how little we know about the original smart AI

orchid kettle
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that's because its happening right now, right chat?

modest marsh
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🤮

orchid kettle
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a chat bot that vomits random nonsense is the same as an actual scifi AI right

empty bloom
stoic hamlet
vagrant ocean
modest marsh
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I suppose Earth has been glassed

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And you know what they say about glassed planets

vagrant ocean
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Dead men tell no tales

dusk jetty
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Not the best place to be sure

modest marsh
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Tis in jest

dusk jetty
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How many times have we been attacked since 2552?

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4?

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Why did we rebuild the home fleet if they get stomped everytime they breathe

empty bloom
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Sometimes you just want a funni cannon fodder fleet

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Call it a speed bump

dusk jetty
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Small inconvenience

modest marsh
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The reality is each subsequent attack on Earth itself was more unlikely than the last

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The UNSC’s power projection is important for its current political position in the galaxy as it cedes more and more power to corporate interests

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Which has now been upheaved by the current state of affairs

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Earth isn’t just vulnerable to Covenant splinter factions, the banished, rebels, created remnants, or some hypothetical new threat, but it’s fair to say at this point that the UEG has a tenuous grip on its own civilian population when you have megacorps developing their own private armies

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A fleet of ships to keep the private sector and criminal enterprises at bay makes sense and now who’s to say that entities like Liang Dortmund, Hannibal Weapon Systems, or SinoViet can’t/shouldn’t leverage their capital to their advantage at the expense of others

modest marsh
dusk jetty
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I’m mostly being sarcastic when I say why

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I know why you defend something

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But clearly we’re up against vastly superior odds where the home fleet is concerned

modest marsh
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Tbh I’m gonna be contrarian and say actually the UNSC should have no warships, only Spartans and cannons to shoot them from

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Maybe but you’re at least deterring weaker forces

dusk jetty
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The simple matter of fact is the home fleet has been decimated at least twice

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Three if we count 2552

modest marsh
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This has been wondrous for skilled job creation so I see it as a net positive

dusk jetty
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I’m not counting didact because he didn’t actually really destroy any ships from what I remember

modest marsh
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He did

dusk jetty
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Just said screw Arizona which is reasonable tbh

dusk jetty
modest marsh
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You see a few ships in the skybox that get blown up during the particle cannon section

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The exact number is never stated

dusk jetty
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Ok so probably 4 then

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In the span of seven years

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Who exactly is in charge

modest marsh
modest marsh
dusk jetty
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Yeah I read the Halopedia page

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The sentinels coming out of the ark portal can be excused because we had no idea

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Cortana’s shenanigans are still a bit unclear I’m assuming she just scattered it

modest marsh
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The home fleet was likely made up of ships that were rotated from fleets across the galaxy rather than necessarily all being purpose built for that station

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In general, the UNSC’s presence has receded a lot since the end of the war, which means a lot of the scattered fleets would find more centralized stations near or at earth

modest marsh
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Infinity was unique in its ability to rapidly jump out of the solar system at a moment’s notice due to its forerunner Slipspace engine being much faster to spin up and also Roland not betraying them

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Not everyone would be so lucky

dusk jetty
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“However, having witnessed the capabilities of the Guardians, the crew of the Infinity instead chose to retreat, narrowly escaping the massive EMP blast that shut down all technology on Earth, rendering the Home Fleet utterly defenseless as their own vessels were also disabled in orbit.[23]”

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Probably dead yeah

modest marsh
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In both the Didact and Cortana’s cases, I don’t think they really intended to do much damage to the fleets themselves beyond the minimum necessary because they’re still valuable assets that could be used

hardy swan
minor sky
modest marsh
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Mantle’s approach is an incredibly powerful ship but it’s meant to be crewed by hundreds of fellow forerunners and ancillas and he’s one guy

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It’s also just one ship

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He was more than willing to take advantage of Mdama’s fleet and forces which suggests that resource scarcity was a consideration

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Maybe he could even facilitate upgrades similar to what was done to the Ace of Spades

minor sky
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Yeah but I don't really think of him trying to keep humans alive to be composed. I don't think he even cared, I always thought that his attack was done out of pure hatred for humanity/loyality to the mantle.
Granted I have to finished the Forerunner Trilogy so maybe I'm missing something

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But idk, its more of a vibes thing for that specific detail

modest marsh
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He’s driven out of an irrational hatred of humans but his goal isn’t to wastefully exterminate the species

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The goal is to rebuild the Forerunner empire

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Wrest control of the galaxy from its unrightful usurpers

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There’s a poetic justice in his mind composing them to fulfill their duty in recompense for what they’ve done

minor sky
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I don't think he is above laying waste to humanity's fleets is all

modest marsh
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Maybe but to what end

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Like okay, why bother with the composer at all

minor sky
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But you make a solid arguement

modest marsh
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It’s not any faster at killing things then any other naval weapon system

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Theoretically he could’ve turned the entire western hemisphere into slag the moment he jumped into the system

minor sky
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Idk, ig it was just in comparison to Cortana and her regime that got me thinking

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Because with her it does feel like there would be more reason for her to keep them alive compared to the Didact

modest marsh
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Cortana is more emotionally driven than the Didact is, which I also think is a deliberate source of irony

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In the same way her relationship with Chief and how their personalities contrast in spite of their biological differences is also ironic

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I thought you were gonna mention Doisac, so I figured I’d bring up the fact that that’s something beneath the more pragmatic approach the Didact would’ve taken based on my interpretation

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But in either case, Didact expressly wants to compose Chief for instance so he can study him, which is essentially why he’s going “easy” on him in the final level

minor sky
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blowing up Doisac was stupid anyways

hardy swan
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all these talking abou composing are they mozart?

modest marsh
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It suggests a level of restraint that you wouldn’t expect of someone dead set on total annihilation of the species without any other consideration

minor sky
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It does really add an extra layer to his character. Part of why I like him. Stuff like what he says to the Lord Of Admirals in the Halo 4 terminals always sticks with me. He respects a warrior, regardless of how much he may dislike them

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why couldn't he have been the main antagonist of the trilogy?

modest marsh
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To be clear, Didact obviously wants to wipe out humanity as a culture and maybe even eradicate their biological form entirely, but he intends to do this primarily through the composer as his way of serving justice

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If he did get his way, nothing would stand in the path of the forerunner empire rising to power once more

hardy swan
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now he's made up with his old enemies and is with his wife

modest marsh
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I guess the point I’m making is that certain people take umbrage with his presentation in Halo 4 as him being a jobbing idiot who loses for contrived reasons but it’s not hard to reason why he went about things the way he did to even allow himself to lose

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Like yeah I guess there isn’t a reason he shouldn’t have blown up infinity immediately if he wanted to, but maybe he didn’t

minor sky
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I really kind of wish Halo 4 got to go through another draft just to let the story function better

minor sky
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I swear the game's epitath is "On The Cusp Of Greatness"

modest marsh
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but that’s every halo game

minor sky
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Some more than others

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Halo CE: a classic that can show its age every now and then
Halo 2: great story, mixed design
Halo 3: mixed story, great design
ODST: Perfect
Reach: "2/3 ain't half bad"
4: 🤏 this close
5: insert 12 part heavily opinionated thesis here
Infinite: "its fine."

narrow bison
minor sky
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I think it is. All the pieces are there, it just needed a little more time

narrow bison
minor sky
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There are moments of greatness all throughout the game, it just doesn't quite come together like it should. I put the blame on the Xbox 360 being very outdated in 2012 and the fact they were building a studio and a majorly anticipated release at the same time

modest marsh
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Except halo 2, which is perfect

narrow bison
modest marsh
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Not sure why you posted one perfect game and two inferior ones

minor sky
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When Halo 2 is good, its great. But the levels are often too linear and scripted and/or heavily compromised

modest marsh
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Simply a matter of skill

narrow bison
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I like h2a

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But DAYUM

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You just like dissed halo 3 and reach?

minor sky
modest marsh
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It takes a high IQ to appreciate Halo 2 for the masterpiece that it is

minor sky
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Levels like Metropolis are fun at first but really lack a ton of depth once you play them over and over

narrow bison
bronze prawn
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better than CE at least

young bloom
bronze prawn
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all bloody rooms are the same

young bloom
minor sky
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2 exists in a similar spot to 4 where the vision is there, but for one reason or another it didn't come to pass

narrow bison
small hamlet
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Imo Halo 2 has the best campaign

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But the multiplayer isn't the best

minor sky
small hamlet
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Halo 3's campaign is rushed but the multiplayer is great

narrow bison
small hamlet
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Reach is kinda a mix of both

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Good campaign, good multiplayer

modest marsh
small hamlet
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Not better than Halo 2 or 3 but you get my point

bronze prawn
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i´ll never understand the love of 3s campaign

minor sky
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3's campaign rocks in terms of design, but the story is... lacking to say the least

young bloom
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Halo 2 had the best soundtrack js

narrow bison
minor sky
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ODST I think gets it right. The strong writing of 2 meets the design of Halo 3.

young bloom
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Break out the ol breaking Benjamin

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A lot of people like ODSTs soundtrack as well I hear that a lot

minor sky
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Reach is largely solid, but it does fall short in a few areas. While the changes made to gameplay are controversial, its design and sheer variety hold up well. The storyline is a mixed bag. It does have some very strong moments, but characters tend to be one note and I just don't see a ton of depth to it like I would with 2 or 4

young bloom
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Side note, I miss George

minor sky
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Reach is like 3 in that its story is very "vibes" based if that makes sense. Though it is better than 3's story imo

young bloom
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I agree

bronze prawn
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is not THAT hard to have a better story than 3

minor sky
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Well "having a story" puts you ahead of it to begin with 🥁

minor sky
bronze prawn
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i always find it lacklusting

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i cant tell how

minor sky
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His body is slowly being corrupted by the Flood, his mind is going half-mad, and he is watching as all of his plans fall apart. And Thel gets a cool one-liner to finish it off

narrow bison
minor sky
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Why?

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Genuinely.

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I want to know

narrow bison
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For starter saying there is no depth than 2 or 4?

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??????

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Halo 4???

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It's no halo 5 but halo 4

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Out of all the games

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Halo 4

unique rune
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what

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4’s campaign has its problems but most Halo campaigns are about as deep as a puddle

4 by comparison is like
I dunno

a kitchen sink?

modest marsh
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Depth isn’t necessarily a quality that’s inherently “good”, it just means there’s an effort taken to capitalize on disparate concepts (which can be done very poorly)

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There’s plenty of “deep” works that suck

minor sky
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^

modest marsh
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Halo 3 doesn’t try to be deep and that’s fine

minor sky
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My point is that the plot of 2 and 4 tend to give me more to chew on than other titles.

modest marsh
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Halo 5 on the other hand has WAY too much going on for its own good which I believe to be its true weakness

minor sky
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Also true

modest marsh
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There’s like, 3 campaigns worth of plot and subplot stuffed into the shortest campaign of the series

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20 different characters, half a dozen major locations

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Slow the f down

minor sky
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The series story really did balloon way too quickly after (or even before) Halo 4

modest marsh
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If only there was an episodic storytelling format they could’ve leveraged to help facilitate all this…oh

minor sky
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Spartan Ops was a neat idea but honestly they could've just made it a companion to Halo 4 like ODST was, because the Spartan Ops we did get was lackluster

modest marsh
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A lot of the story decisions made during the reclaimer saga and infinite start to make a lot more sense when you realize it was first conceived to be told in a seasonal model that was abandoned because it turns out that’s really, really, really hard

minor sky
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Shame the "Road To The Ring" idea didn't pan out

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Could've been cool

narrow bison
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Glad we got halo 3 odst than halo chronicles

minor sky
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Me too

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Chronicles would've been neat but it obviously didn't pan out for a reason

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And we got District 9 out of it

narrow bison
minor sky
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I kind of dig it. Having you grow stronger and stronger as the game progresses

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Obviously we now have a decade of detail Forerunner lore (a lot of which is really cool!) that doesn't quite fit with Chronicles' vision

modest marsh
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Halo’s transhumanist explorations as a love letter to ghost in the shell are integral, as is its lineage with marathon, so I think it works remarkably well as a concept

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Prometheans aren’t perfect but they do somewhat capture what Bungie was thinking of when they first did Halo

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Humanizing the Spartans was an unintended compromise they made to satisfy Microsoft’s mandate for expanded universe material

minor sky
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And one I am glad they did do

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Even the Marathon Security Officer was given quite a bit of exploration

modest marsh
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Sure, but maybe a little esoteric and unconventional for what was meant to be Microsoft’s Star Wars

minor sky
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Chief being a "big green tank to drive around" worked well for what Bungie wanted to do, but I am glad other media actually gave us more insight into who he is

hardy swan
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he's no clanker

minor sky
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I think it was the right call for 343i to make when starting work on 4 to go in that direction. Because if you just played the games all you really know about John Halo is "He shoots aliens and doesn't afraid of anything"

minor sky
hardy swan
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next step is taking off that helmet

runic latch
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How do you do? Mind if I ask something lore related?

carmine sleet
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Ask away

runic latch
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Okay so. We know there was a time the humans teamed up with sangheli.

Even traded their weapons. My question is Whaddya’ll reckon aliens would find useful about human weaponry?

vagrant ocean
orchid kettle
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If you take plasma weapons and their stated effective range seriously-- then the fact that the humans have weapons that shoot further than 50 meters

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otherwise, I dunno

vagrant ocean
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Also human weapons can also be more easily modified to suit the needs of the user.

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It’s why Dahks, a Jackal sniper, uses an S7 rifle.

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Among other reasons

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Plus there’s the fact that they might be easier to acquire given that trade routes have opened up.

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It’s a layered thing

hardy swan
modest marsh
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The plasma pistol can reliably hit things at ~100 meters in game

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Well, as long as it’s not moving, or else you have to use the overcharge homing

orchid kettle
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yeah at this point I kinda assume most of the old Halo 3 era statistics for the weapons are just outdated

modest marsh
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I think the 50 meter “effective range” also just depends on how you’re defining “effective range” because that could easily be because it’s a side arm without any way of stabilizing for long distance shots even if the bolts can technically reach that far

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And then you have to factor things like the plasma bleeding off over time reducing it’s killing power over longer distances

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Which also gets complicated because allegedly iterations of the same plasma pistol pattern can have different degrees of output/energy consumption depending on when it was made

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It’s also not clear how much can be attributed to mechanical precision vs the average shooter’s skill with it

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I like to think that aimed shots are only good to ~50 meters with your standard Eos’Mak pattern pistol, but a few hundred grunts firing en masse can easily saturate your position with mostly-expended bolts from a few hundred meters away, enough to be a threat but not necessarily as fatal as getting struck point blank

minor sky
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Trying to jog my memory, was Blue Team on Infinity when it arrived at Zeta Halo?

stoic hamlet
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From an audio log likely not, though.

minor sky
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That sucks. I do think it is a shame some of the earlier ideas pitched for Infinite's campaign were cut

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The story seemed to have a lot more going on

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Maybe it was for the best but I think it sucked that Chief never linked up with Infinity's crew

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I'm still going with my theory that Infinity got pulled into the same Time-displacement thing that pushed Chief forward two weeks at the end of the game

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Also that Chief was pulled into it when Atriox threw him out of the ship. Just because 6 months in Survival mode feels a little far fetched

modest marsh
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We don’t exactly have an elaborate explanation for the underlying mechanics but I can buy that the utility of a two-way neural interface could make it possible to essentially shut off nonessential biological processes and have the rest running on the barest of minimums of energy

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I do think it’s a little goofy Chief never stops to have a snack though, dude has been living off of sugar water and multivitamins

jade cape
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It’s alluded to in the “Infinity’s Approach” audio logs albeit not super explicitly or detailed, just that they were sent elsewhere because of their “unexpected availability”

shrewd echo
empty bloom
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So basically like the intro we got, but without the Infinity or Atriox.

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An attempted mission gone wrong at the start, with the mystery of 'where the hell did the Infinity go'

shrewd echo
empty bloom
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no

shrewd echo
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I don't remember them, what part of the story did they come into?

empty bloom
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SOIEV pods are ODST drop pods.

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In Ghosts of Onyx there was a specific variant that had a special shell that let them be dropped off via slipspace jump.

shrewd echo
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That's sick. I must have forgotten that

modest marsh
jade cape
modest marsh
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From an in universe perspective it would make absolutely no sense without an incredibly contrived justification why Blue Team wouldn’t be backing up Chief

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They have hundreds of other Spartans they could’ve picked for whatever unmentionable secret mission that blue team was allegedly sent on, so we’re left with a rather flimsy excuse to keep their fate ambiguous

jade cape
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Logically, you’re right to point out that it’s a poorly timed & thought out decision tactically, although I can only assume the assignment was of utmost importance if they were separate just before Humanity’s last bastion was attacked

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What it actually was that was so important chief couldn’t be allowed to utilize the rest of his fireteam, who the hell knows

modest marsh
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I don’t doubt you could ham fist a potential assignment that required Spartans being pulled away, but why blue team specifically

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The reason why Chief was picked to deal with Cortana is because she’s unlikely to vaporize him on the spot

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Wouldn’t that also apply to his buddies?

shrewd echo
modest marsh
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Sure but at that point you’re only sinking deeper into the problem of making IVs seem incompetent and worthless

jade cape
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I mean there’s an answer for it but mostly within the context of observation, like why the game’s narrative was written that way

I would only assume other Spartans weren’t too big of a focus because one of the biggest criticisms 343 got from halo 5 was that the narrative needed to be more Chief-Centric and not around Spartans that don’t carry as much weight as he does

granted, that’s not a lore-based explanation, but it’s an explanation

shrewd echo
modest marsh
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That’s not really speaking to their tactical value, especially when IVs greatly outnumber IIs

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If you need 3 Spartan-IIs to get a job done, send 9 IVs

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Or 3 IVs and a platoon of ODSTs

shrewd echo
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I think it all comes down to questionable writing, we can't really make it make sense that well 😂

modest marsh
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It’s been pretty well established that splitting up IIs exponentially decreases their combat effectiveness

jade cape
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Spartan - IV’s in general I think have been done a disservice from a lore perspective and even more so with the way they started off being introduced via Spartan ops

lore wise they’re a really really cool innovation among Spartans and people don’t give the concept more praise or credit, mostly because they’re used as the typical Spartan poster boys you see dying in everything and just running around namelessly

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I would love to see Spartan - IV’s portrayed in a more proper light that does their skillset and in universe uniqueness and talents credit

#

In something beyond another novel at least I guess

modest marsh
#

Rubicon Protocol did some work to improve the image of IVs but then some of the waypoint chronicles feel like they go out of their way to make them feel bizarrely fragile and ineffective

#

To say nothing of Infinite’s handling

jade cape
#

Don’t get me wrong, I love the novels, it has nothing but deepened my love and appreciation for halo especially lore wise

but to face the music if only for a moment: the vast majority of the community, players & fans don’t even touch the novels beyond fall of reach

#

which is a damn shame, truly, because you miss out on some of the best expansion and character work out there within halo

modest marsh
#

Don’t worry, they get all their lore from YouTube shorts

jade cape
#

Cries in Kilo - 5

shrewd echo
#

I love the books, but it unfortunate that so much key lore is in them, and not many people read it.

jade cape
#

My sentiments exactly

modest marsh
#

I think it depends on what you consider “key”

#

A lot of the world building stuff aren’t pertinent if it isn’t something that’s intended to be perceived by the player character

jade cape
#

I mean the forerunner trilogy for starters, as well as fall of reach, and contact harvest I would say are key lore novels

#

Ghosts of onyx sure, but Spartan - III’s are criminally underrepresented and underutilized at large

modest marsh
#

The Forerunner trilogy is largely stuff well beyond Master Chief’s grasp, to use that as an example

#

There’s no reason for him to know anything about the Didact personally besides what he gleans over the events of Halo 4

jade cape
modest marsh
#

Well, and the halo 3 terminals, but different guy

#

Like okay, a common refrain against halo 4 is that it relies on the resurgence of the Covenant that occurs offscreen, mostly depicted in K5

#

And I think you COULD tweak the game to allow the player to make stronger inferences

#

But like, yeah, Chief wouldn’t know who Jul Mdama is or the nuances of Elite politics

#

Why would the player if we’re mostly constrained to Chief’s pov?

jade cape
#

Honestly I would’ve much rather preferred the covenant be dissolved and off screen completely as a villainous faction post-Halo 3

if the prometheans were done a little better I think people would’ve dug them a little more up until the point they were out of focus with Halo Infinite

modest marsh
#

Aliens are too fun to shoot, sorry

jade cape
#

Covenant remnants being the immediate villain faction after an entire trilogy working to dissolve the faction itself, does a disservice to the story of Combat Evolved - 3

#

that’s my opinion at least

#

That isn’t to say they couldn’t be represented or featured at all, but the main focus for villains should’ve been elsewhere

empty bloom
jade cape
glossy sun
#

So in Halo 5 there is a shotgun called the "Blaze of Glory" that is a regular M45D shotgun except the in-game definition is:
"Advanced technology married to brutal simplicity. Advanced Shotgun with Forerunner mechanism to fire fast-moving hardlight projectiles with extra range and anti-vehicle effect."
So this means that in the ONE year between Halo 4 (where the UNSC first encounters Forerunner hardlight weaponry on Requiem) and Halo 5 the UNSC has started to reverse engineer Forerunner weapons
Which is honestly kinda wild for how quick they've managed to do it

modest marsh
#

Obviously this is all retroactive but there’s nothing to say locations like Gamma Halo or Onyx didn’t have lightrifles and the like

glossy sun
#

Ah okay

#

True

#

Do you think they just changed the M45D's firing mechanism to allow Scattershot rounds?

mystic idol
#

Omg my brother would absolutely love this channel! He is a halo encyclopedia

modest marsh
glossy sun
#

Ah okay

modest marsh
#

Same way lightrifle, suppressor, and boltshot reload using a single metal tube

mystic idol
#

Whats your favorite weaponized vehicle? Mine is a Banshee

modest marsh
#

Binary rifle too actually

glossy sun
mystic idol
#

Oooo good choice

glossy sun
#

UNSC tanks are weird actually
They use a 90mm gun which is kinda weak for a MBT

mystic idol
#

Its still fun to splatter grunts with tho

#

I still find it funny how i am horrible at driving ground vehicles but can fly banshees pretty good.
On xbox, PC is weird.

hardy swan
#

UNSC tank doctrine is not the same as most modern tanks right now

#

I think they barely do anti tank roles anymore and mostly use he rounds

#

But let’s talk about how dumb tank controls in infinite is. Mouse movements

glossy sun
#

Lmao

#

Luckily I play on console

mystic idol
#

I ran out of space on my pc for the master chief collection. Working on getting a controller but im broke rn so have to deal with a glitchy mouse if i ever figure out the storage problem

minor sky
#

I just can't get used to Halo on a keyboard and mouse

modest marsh
minor sky
modest marsh
#

With the materials science and propellants available in the 26th century, there’s no real reason they couldn’t make a 90mm shell do what a 120mm does today

#

The former having smaller dimensions means they can also deploy with a larger quantity of shells that can be fired more rapidly

#

The main weakness of the scorpion is that its hull doesn’t seem to be efficiently designed to maximize protection of the crew because its designed with the gameplay conceit of quickly jumping in and out of the vehicle within a couple seconds at most, as well as making them vulnerable to sniper attacks for balance purposes

#

The CE version of the scorpion had a grate over the driver seat instead of an actual hatch for that reason

#

But then, the Halo Wars/Spartan Assault take on the scorpion seems to have a more reasonable design where the crew is better defended inside the hull without an exposed cabin, so you could just choose to interpret the design in the FPS games as non canonical if it suits your preference

stoic hamlet
stoic hamlet
modest marsh
#

They cheated for developing FTL comms but I don’t think that cancels out their other achievements

hardy swan
#

raigun or coilgun tank needs to happen

#

MAC tech existed for a century

minor sky
#

Isn't that the Hannibal Scorpian in 5?

hardy swan
#

yes

#

but the scorpion is ugly

unique rune
minor sky
#

For the longest time I thought the 5 Scorpian was smaller than the traditional design, but having compared the numbers per Halopedia- it is actually the larger of the two

#

i actually don't mind the design of the Halo 5 scorpian that much. maybe not enough to replace the original, but its a cool variant

unique rune
#

I miss the M820

minor sky
#

I don't mind the majority of the 343i/reclaimer-era redesigns made to the vehicles. The only one I really dislike is the Halo 4/Halo 5 Pelican

#

I think all the Covenant vehicles in 5 look really cool

#

The Mongoose in 5 and Infinite might be my favorite design for it. Though I do have a softspot for 3's take

hardy swan
#

the pelican is such a cool design

#

when I think of sci fi dropship, I think of pelican from halo

stoic hamlet
glossy sun
modest marsh
# glossy sun Wait Hannibal cheated?

“Says here in 2474, the Hannibal family settled on thirty acres in the Pori Region. Those thirty acres would eventually become the city of Pilvros. There’s been a building on our coordinate site since 2505. Six years after that, Jack Pilvros Hannibal tested the first small-scale quantum photonic amplifier for SATCOM relays. It revolutionized the speed and integrity of extraplanetary communication. They called him a genius, the brightest forward thinker of the day. That patent and all of the ones since remain closely guarded.

“So it’s possible. Good ole JP found a Forerunner facility out in the wilds of Pori, began reverse-engineering the tech he found, and built his empire right on top of it.”

“Maybe,” Ram said. “It’s a pretty big coincidence to ignore. Whatever jump-started his career, Hannibal isn’t one we should underestimate. He built an empire that extends from Pilvros to New Mombasa. His company is nice and cozy with the UNSC, advancing the tech on small arms, major weapons, security… If he did find our site, you better believe the steps he’s created to keep it hidden are going to be extreme.”

Point of Light, chapter 19

glossy sun
#

Ah I see
I mean they're right

modest marsh
#

It’s unlikely Rhinos have only ever been designed to use plasma mortars

hardy swan
#

Plasma is hot

minor sky
#

The Reclaimer Pelican just doesn't work for me at all. The shape is too boxy or too cury in some areas. It doesn't really "flow" like it should. The cockpit feels too narrow, I also think it is too tall of a vehicle

#

It still shares some of my issues, but I ultimately prefer Robogabo's concept art for it

brittle brook
stoic hamlet
unique rune
#

I like the D79 overall but there's some angles where it looks kinda awkwardly bulbous and I'm not a huge fan of it

modest marsh
#

Halo 4 suffers a lot from its truncated development period and over ambitious scope which has been a vicious cycle ever since 343i took the helm

minor sky
#

Shutdown as a whole was hugely cut back on based on Cortana's cut dialogue

modest marsh
#

Also, in reference to its size, the D79H is actually smaller in its canonical dimensions than the D77, and weighs half as much

minor sky
#

Halo 4 really should've been an Xbox One release

minor sky
glossy sun
#

Why doesn't Chief like being called "Sir"?

modest marsh
#

Master Chief is an enlisted rate, not a commissioned officer, so it’s considered informal to refer to him as a “sir”

#

It would be like calling a lawyer “your honor”

carmine sleet
glossy sun
modest marsh
#

Chief is in an uncomfortable position where his reputation has far exceeded his actual nominal authority

#

Hood wisely anticipated the political issues that would arise from him coming back from the dead as humanity’s martyred hero and wanted to fast track him to flag officer, but chief declined the offer and so he’s stuck with the baggage of essentially being a huge celebrity without actually wanting or having the commensurate authority

hardy swan
#

I bet if he goes on a coup rn 99% of the UNSC would join him

minor sky
dusk jetty
#

No but when you have “The” commonly put in front of your rank most people tend to ignore formality

modest marsh
#

at this point they've cemented their own rules on this

#

apparently it's considered more respectful to call every other master chief "top chief" in universe even though that's an informal nickname, just because master chief has a monopoly on the moniker now

#

a little silly but we all know for out of universe reasons there's never gonna be another MCPO

stoic hamlet
#

But they’ve also flip-flopped on whether or not “soldier” is a generic or specific term.

In Ghosts of Onyx, Kurt momentarily thinks about correcting Ackerson when he refers to him as a soldier (A Spartan is a sailor, not a soldier) but he holds his tongue because he understands officers don’t usually like corrections like that.

… then newer canon has Chief just call everyone “soldier”.

stoic hamlet
obsidian thistle
#

Not a lot has changed since then for me. XD

#

I'm still a stickler for the deets

#

Another case was Escalation

20250816_185946.jpg
#

Thankfully HS didnt need to worry about that as issue blurbs were mostly omitted from later releases

stoic hamlet
#

But if they pull back on that fans will get mad.

minor sky
#

I mean its not like the series spent three games doing what basically amounts to one of those TikTok Sigma edit things for Chief

modest marsh
#

To some extent it kinda has by virtue of increasingly raising the stakes and pitting him against worse and worse odds while seemingly having few if any real set backs

#

Like yeah he got rocked by Atriox

#

But even then it was a cheap shot from the biggest of baddest brutes “wielding OC donut steal” in melee weapon form that needed to be employed just so we can see him lose for once

#

And people still complained

minor sky
#

I mean if we are being totally realistic, The Didact would've wipped the floor with Chief if not for plot armor "Luck"

#

Though my personal headcanon is that The Didact was still a little groggy from his 100,000 year long nap

modest marsh
#

I mean, I already addressed that before

#

Didact more or less is explicitly holding back because he wants to preserve him

#

If nothing else, I think he wants to understand why the Librarian essentially sold out their entire race in favor of uplifting their eternal foes

#

More practically, Chief being composer-resistant is cause for concern, so I doubt he wants to atomize him if he doesn’t have to, so he opts for the force choke instead

minor sky
#

I was just being silly but sure

#

Master Chief is one of two characters I can think of off the top my head to have their plot armor canonized

modest marsh
#

Video game characters or in general?

minor sky
#

I was speaking in general but ig it would be technically both

modest marsh
#

I mean I guess it depends on what you mean by “plot armor” but probably the most widely known example of plot armor being an explicit mechanic of the setting is the Force from Star Wars lol

minor sky
#

The second one that came to mind was the Archie Comics version of Sonic the Hedgehog who iirc is stated at one point to have some cosmic shenanigans surrounding him to make him come out on top or something like that.

modest marsh
#

If you take into account stuff like ancient mythologies and religious texts, I’d say the concept is foundational to some of the most important texts in human history

#

“Deus ex machina” is a trope derived from the concept of gods intervening to help the heroes in times of peril

#

Coming back to something more relevant to Halo, Master Chief’s predecessor, the security officer from Marathon, was originally meant to be the same guy

#

And I think that Destiny represents the culmination of this concept by embracing the fantasy aesthetic

minor sky
#

The Marathon Security Officer is every hero ever. Not in a completely litteral sense of course, but the story makes his existance something of a universal constant

#

The ending of Marathon Infinity basically spells it out with Duran-thoth's monologue

#

"You are Destiny" and all that

modest marsh
#

Yeah, and Chief is a blank slate ghost in the shell you are just piloting

#

Or at least that was the intention

#

Bungie had to cave on that because Microsoft wanted EU material

minor sky
#

As I said the other night, I am personally glad that happened

carmine sleet
#

Yeah, Chief having a character is for the best honestly

stoic hamlet
#

All these examples go well beyond Halo’s, where Halo more just vaguely hints at it.

modest marsh
#

i don't remember any supernatural elements in resistance but i also haven't played 1/2 since 2008

#

and those were the only ones i played

stoic hamlet
#

Not supernatural, but the idea of a protagonist having plot armour.

Because Hale’s infected, he can regen health and heal from mortal wounds, but only after his infection in York.

The game directly calls this out with a cutscene (I believe, from memory) noting a soldier saw his uniform pockmarked with bullet holes.

#

The respawns aren’t canon.

But the health packs and soft-healing is.

modest marsh
#

allegedly Hale was experimented on before his deployment in york so it was a little more than luck that he survived being infected

stoic hamlet
#

Yeah.

He was a member of Project Abraham

But I digress.

modest marsh
#

RAGE didn't bother with any proper checkpoint system in exchange for a manual save system so instead your player character has a defibrillator that revives them on death

stoic hamlet
#

Games like that actually bother to give their protagonist something.

But in Halo, John really doesn’t have anything that actually makes him more or less special than any other Spartan. Nothing definite.

“Luck” doesn’t really count, IMO.

#

It’s too nebulous of a metric.

modest marsh
#

I think the "luck" is real, we just haven't been exposed to the true explanation yet

#

Halo's metaphysics is explicitly deterministic to some extent

#

Living time and so on

stoic hamlet
#

Possibly, but a lot of his feats thus far don’t really require specifically him, is more my point.

Even the Composer immunity, if it had been another Spartan, and another AI, the same thing would have occurred, for example.

modest marsh
#

I was more referring to the idea his circumstances are prescribed to achieve a predetermined outcome rather than him physically doing anything differently

stoic hamlet
#

Fair fair.

#

It goes back broadly to the idea of free will, which 343/HS seem to flip flop on in many ways.

modest marsh
#

“Everything is connected. Yet, to truly see those connections one must pull things apart before putting them back together. It was not always a… gentle or fair or kind process.

“Long down the world-line, there will be another me—whether saurian, human, avian, reptilian, male, female… it matters little. There will be another Primordial, another Didact, another Chakas, another you, Rion. Living Time needs her champions and her villains to keep the balance.

#

There’s also this one bit from Cryptum that’s stuck with me

#

There are points in life when everything changes, and changes in a big way. The old sophistic texts refer to these points as synchrons. Synchrons supposedly tie great forces and personalities together. You can’t predict them and you can’t avoid them. Only rarely can you feel them. They are like knots creeping forward on your string of time. Ultimately, they tie you to the great currents of the universe—bind you a common fate.

#

This sounds to me like it’s describing a video game checkpoint

#

There’s also the whole “intellectual property rights be damned, Halo is Marathon and Destiny still” angle

stoic hamlet
#

Yeah.

modest marsh
#

It’s also not that different from the theory that the protagonists of the elder scrolls games are avatars of a sleeping god that’s become lucid

stoic hamlet
#

It’s definitely one of the more esoteric aspects of the setting/universe.

Will Halo ever actually tackle this? I often wonder.

modest marsh
#

Epitaph did reference this concept not too long ago and my assumption for the longest time has been that the Endless were meant to be a vehicle to explore this stuff since it’s really beyond the scope of what can be shown in a shooter game without it being front and center

#

Like, this goes waaaaaay over the heads of 99% of the audience for something as theoretically important as “this is fundamentally how the setting works”

stoic hamlet
#

It’s an aspect where I wonder if it actually should be explored with any sort of nuance and not just immediately acknowledged as wrong.

But then, it feels like most of Humanity’s achievements are because of that very aspect, and there’s a dangerous potential for HS to go “well without the Forerunner Geas or Ancestor genetics” there would be no modern human achievements. None are their own, they’re just the secret blueprints of someone else.

I doubt they’ll go that route, but for a long time it really did seem like that was what they were going for, and they didn’t seem to have anyone in-universe actually call out how insane it is, lol.

#

They still don’t.

thorn spindle
#

Maybe it would make sense if the Forerunners purposely made us super dumb in the reversal and the gea just kinda balanced it to normal levels

#

Or if Ancient humans had a similar capability idk

#

Before the dumbness

#

I remember some installation 00 vid talking about ancient humans and some neural physics understanding

minor sky
minor sky
minor sky
modest marsh
#

The imprint she seeded into humanity as a whole was a broadstroke model rather than specifically predicting the outcomes of the next 100,000 years precisely

minor sky
#

It always seemed like the easiest answer

modest marsh
#

I think that it’s intended some people are just more sensitive to the will of Living Time and act as conduits to enact it without necessarily understanding what goes on in the middle, and the Librarian is just one of those people that both see it most clearly and has an active role in shaping things

#

Kinda like a That’s So Raven situation

#

This runs into the problem that Eternal Canadian is highlighting however, because it means free will doesn’t meaningfully exist in the Halo universe and robs people of their agency

glossy sun
#

How do Spartan Cores work in-universe?
Like why the hell do the Banished want them?

modest marsh
#

But moreover I don’t think it’s something meant to be interpreted literally

#

In fact the way equipment is handled in infinite is highly suspect and I find it unlikely that they’re gonna portray the grappleshot with its electric ground pound function in the upcoming novel, but I could be wrong

#

One of the waypoint chronicles did reference the escape velocity upgrade for the thruster pack, but this was specified as a tweak made to Kelly’s MJOLNIR in particular that made it possible to move quickly while cloaked simultaneously (since usually you have to move slowly for the cloak to work)

#

I don’t think Chief canonically did this same mod to his own MJOLNIR/TPack module in the field

glossy sun
#

Ah okay

#

So the Spartan Cores might just be an in-game thing

modest marsh
#

I think that 343i has toyed around with the armor being able to modify itself pretty much as soon as Bungie handed it off to them what with the alleged nanomachine capabilities established with the Mark VII back in Glasslands but haven’t found a plausible way to implement this in the game proper

glossy sun
#

Ah okay okay
That's cool

#

That would kinda make sense
I mean when you insert a core it does say downloading binaries so maybe the cores tell the nano bots how to upgrade or something

modest marsh
#

One of the Mega construx sets that released before infinite was a pelican that could be converted into an “isopod”, which may mean nothing but I get the impression that it was building on the loose premise that Chief would RTB to upgrade his gear using something a bit more diegetic

#

I think the idea is that his armor would be significantly damaged at the beginning of the campaign so he would need to recover his abilities rather than having them innately

#

In the game itself, Atriox only manages to depower his suit

vagrant ocean
modest marsh
#

Well, idk if we’re allowed to discuss leaks but I think it may be related to something that’s recently come to light

modest marsh
stoic hamlet
#

If it’s from a recent video I would not discuss it.

modest marsh
#

GEN3 may be sterner stuff than GEN1 but Douglas was way worse for wear than Chief was

glossy sun
#

Okay I was just wondering lol
Because I'm writing like my own fic and I was just wondering what the hell Cores are for and what I can use them for

modest marsh
#

I would ignore it because it hasn’t been mentioned in any of the material around or after the release of infinite

stoic hamlet
#

^^^^

glossy sun
#

Got it
I'll just have my Spartans like returning to a ship for something to get their armor fixed

stoic hamlet
#

That’s generally how it goes.

MJOLNIR is not meant for long deployments. The longer you go the worse it’ll be.

#

It’s akin to a high performance race car.

modest marsh
stoic hamlet
#

If it goes too long without maintenance and/or gets too badly damaged, it’ll actually be worse than not having it at all.

#
  • As shown in The Rubicon Protocol
modest marsh
#

Which imo is a gameplay conceit that 343i wanted to explore in the campaign to justify an open world game with a dedicated progression system

#

Because realistically it makes no sense otherwise why Chief would start the game off weak

glossy sun
#

An another topic
Would the UNSC have their own version of like the Banished drop bases in Infinite or would they use something else?

hardy swan
modest marsh
#

I know, which is why we have an extremely watered down progression system that doesn’t even try to be logical

#

The entire premise of chief losing to Atriox without his armor or body being adversely affected at all is a bit of a stretch

#

Like, his batteries shorted out, that’s it

modest marsh
glossy sun
modest marsh
#

Ftr, there are dedicated Spartan facilities

#

The first appearance of this is in Last Light but I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a consequence of early ideation of how to handle Spartan-specific equipment, such as the REQ system we see in Halo 5

glossy sun
#

Ah that's cool

empty bloom
minor sky
#

Also quick question- in Halo 4 during the 2nd mission, Cortana makes reference to a "Cathedral" is that supposed to be the name of the structure they are in or...? I just picked up on it, and I'm assuming its a line referencing some cut dialogue or detail

glossy sun
minor sky
#

Ah. Got it. I looked back through the level's transcript to see if I missed anything and nothing really came up so I figured I would ask

glossy sun
#

Did we ever find out what happened to the Ring in Halo Wars 2?

obsidian thistle
#

Not yet

minor sky
#

My theory was that the Installation 04 re-replacement was going to be the setting of Halo 6, and the cancelled Created DLC would have then somehow tied Halo Wars 2 to Halo 6.
Though now knowing more about the development timeline of Halo Infinite, I'm not so sure

#

The Created DLC was probably scrapped because 343i had already settled on a vision for Halo Infinite

glossy sun
#

I see, I see
Ye because we still need to know what the flip happened to Anders

versed salmon
#

Probably going to wrap up the SOF’s arc in a comic or book, and I would think the same would apply for Anders

#

OR in one of those waypoint chronicles

modest marsh
stoic hamlet
#

I feel like I should ping someone for this…

#

But I’m not sure who.

#

I can’t ping roles, apparently.

#

@obsidian thistle not sure you can remove this.

modest marsh
#

oh, you hate free money or something???

empty bloom
#

No.

modern cape
#

its fake lol

minor sky
#

Looking back, I think it was a really huge shame that they didn't lean more into the horror aspects of the Knights

#

They are sort of the inverse of The Flood, though obviously both have simularities

#

The Flood are this invasive force that warps all organic life into itself; while the Composer transforms organic life into digital matter in service of the Forerunners. Both involve somebody caught in it's grasp having their consciousness picked apart and made into a larger entity domain/gravemind

#

Hell, maybe I'm reaching here, but you could draw some lines between what we saw with Keyes in CE:A's Terminals and what we saw with Tilson in The Machine Breaks

minor sky
#

Much as I don't like that story, The Next 72 Hours' scene with Chief and Blue Team seeing all the composed "souls" of the people in New Pheonix was pretty good.

modest marsh
#

But moreover, there’s pretty clear intentional parallels

#

The Didact wanted to fight fire with fire

#

In order to destroy an army of undead monsters stripped of their identity, he would create his own

burnt spear
#

Do lekgolo worms really worms?

minor sky
#

To be honest it should've been in Halo 5

#

It feels like a very organic scene to happen in the aftermath of 4

#

I think The Next 72 Hours is a pretty bad story (imo), but some of the ideas do have some merit.

glossy sun
minor sky
#

Did anybody else notice the Guardian icon under those balconies during the Nexus mission in Halo Infinite?

#

I just realized they were there out of the corner of my eye

glossy sun
#

I mean

#

There's literally a crashed Guardian

carmine sleet
minor sky
#

Uhhh, in one of the earlier rooms

#

There are Plasma Turrets placed above doorways on both sides of the rooms

#

Under those turrets is the icon

#

At least thats my reccollection (sorry. I was up playing way too late last night.)

carmine sleet
#

No worries, I'll investigate and see if I can find it myself

#

Because I'm curious

minor sky
#

I got a photo

#

One sec

#

Here

#

Looking at the two side by side it is not the same as the guardian symbol seen in Halo 5, but very close

carmine sleet
#

Huh. Curious. Most curious

#

I'm still gonna go look for it myself, just to see what's around it

minor sky
#

Maybe its a symbol I just don't recognize. Idk

carmine sleet
#

Maybe, but definitely very close to the symbol for a Guardian

minor sky
#

Yeah. If I didn't compare the two side-by-side I would have thought it was the same icon

carmine sleet
#

It could be a different interepatation of the same icon?

#

Like how we've seen multiple versions of the Didact's symbol

unique rune
#

the differences from the H5G version almost make it look kinda like a Monitor

carmine sleet
#

Aye, I can see that

minor sky
#

Yeah, I can almost see it though more on the top half than the lower

placid iron
#

I have a question

#

Regarding lore and universe, can I publish things that didn't happen or that aren't canon in Halo lore?

fair hazel
#

You want to publish fan fic?

modest marsh
#

But submitting fan material without any other purpose doesn’t seem like what this channel is for

stoic hamlet
#

Also, actually publishing it is liable to get you sued.

#

If anyone reputable even looks at it.

obsidian thistle
#

^

#

I believe there is a clause in the GCUR

#

That suggests you dont do that

glossy sun
#

Where does the rounds that strike after you use the target designator come from?

stoic hamlet
glossy sun
#

Ah okay

stoic hamlet
#

The rounds coming down from literally straight on isn’t really possible though.

#

But yeah, it’s local artillery.

#

Well “local”

#

The process is obviously truncated for gameplay purposes, but a lot more would need to occur before you’d see artillery called in that close.

#

Or at all, really.

glossy sun
#

I thought it was like an orbital bombardment lol

stoic hamlet
#

Regardless, the same applies.

vagrant ocean
#

I’m pretty sure it’s orbital.

#

And I think a danger close fire mission near an ONI base that’s under attack is easily justified.

stoic hamlet
#

Nah, Kat and the ONI handler both say it’s artillery.

#

If it was orbital it would be “Ortillery”…. Yeah…

empty bloom
#

I doubt Bungie's writers at the time for dialogue really knew what ortillery was.

boreal plank
#

Questions…
1: why are kat and 6 the same age and height…
2: why is sgt johnson actually ancient

obsidian thistle
boreal plank
#

Also

#

Does johnson have clones?

stoic hamlet
boreal plank
#

Gotcha

carmine sleet
#

Cloning in Halo isn't exactly as advanced as it is in other franchises

#

Like, most clones die pretty quickly

#

Though cloning individual organs is something that can be done and used for transplants

vagrant ocean
stoic hamlet
orchid kettle
#

I always assumed you were calling in an air strike from a longsword

#

especially since I think in Firefight at least, a longsword is giving you those power weapon pods every round?

#

though i guess the barrage is notably static for something that's supposedly coming from an airplane

vagrant ocean
#

Interesting

stoic hamlet
modest marsh
#

It should theoretically be possible to clone people and have them develop healthily if they don’t have an accelerated growth cycle

#

It’s just not a thing because it’s been illegal since the interplanetary wars

#

Well, not common at least

#

We can’t say for certain that there aren’t clones of people running around, it just doesn’t seem likely due to the apparent risks and resource constraints

#

What made the Spartan-II clones particularly prone to neurological problems was the fact that Halsey used a memory transfer method she developed that messed up the brain of the recipient, on top of their inherent metabolic issues

orchid kettle
#

i can't wait for 343 to reveal that ONI did a Les Misérables with Chief instead of Big Boss

modest marsh
#

Given how they evidently gave Vale special treatment because of her father, I wouldn’t discount it

#

It wouldn’t even have to be ONI specifically, one of those Venetian syndicates could be experimenting on recovered Spartan-II DNA as we speak

empty bloom
empty bloom
crimson monolith
#

I've so far read the original four books and Contact Harvest, and I'm currently on Kilo Five. What book or series should I read next?

modest marsh
minor sky
#

Forerunner Trilogy might be good

twin parcel
#

I've always like Envoy

#

It's a good read, starts off a bit slow though

crimson monolith
carmine sleet
#

Yes

orchid kettle
#

sectioning it off as the gray team series is imo a bit nonsensical, since Gray Team are ultimately just a small part of either story and there's no greater connection between the books besides these characters

#

like the Denning books are interconnected to a far greater degree than Buckell's stories

lofty abyss
#

halo is like bad

#

halo is rely not yes

crimson monolith
#

I'm not sure which series to go with, but I'm still only on Glasslands, and it is very slow. Maybe I was just a bit spoiled with Ghosts of Onyx or Contact Harvest.

modest marsh
crimson monolith
#

Maybe that's why I find Glasslands so boring and slow

minor sky
#

Still got to get around to the Kilo-Five Trilogy

crimson monolith
stoic hamlet
#

Denning as well, in some cases sadly, but with Traviss it’s more pronounced.

crimson monolith
#

I'll, Travis does go into world-building a whole lot more, but I feel as if it's slow and uninteresting. I don't want to spoil the plot line, but the plot is interesting. I just feel like more could be happening and quicker.

#

It's not necessarily bad, I just feel as if the execution is bad.

hardy swan
#

I mean I heard people didn't like her republic commando books either

#

she killed off Mara Jade

#

apparently

vagrant ocean
#

Yeah, my stepdad said her SW books sucked.

glossy sun
minor sky
#

Haven't read the books

#

They seem to be a very love it or hate it trilogy

glossy sun
#

Everything Traviss is a love it or hate it

#

She kinda messes up each universe she writes for (Star Wars, Gears of War, and Halo)

dusk jetty
#

Traviss presents black and white narratives in very grey areas

glossy sun
#

Exactly

dusk jetty
#

It is a massive problem with her writing particularly in the case of Halsey and also in her Star Wars novels

#

In her republic commando trilogy she presents the separatists as apathetic revolutionaries who aren’t better then the corrupt republic which if you read other material on the clone wars is extraordinarily untrue

#

Meanwhile the Republic and the people therein are of sure moral convictions even when they clearly know they are in the wrong

#

Her treatment of Omega Squad is the best example of this, alongside Halsey.

#

Halsey absolutely is in the grey about many things but Traviss more or less puts her in the permanent “I did what I had to do” flippant mindset

#

So you get a little shell shocked coming out of things like TFOR and GOO where she’s clearly conflicted

glossy sun
#

Yea

#

Her Spartan Naomi is really this whole "I hate Halsey" thing when like none of the Spartans would do that

dusk jetty
#

Naomi’s situation is complex

#

She learns many things other Spartans don’t

#

Her souring on Halsey isn’t too surprising

glossy sun
#

True
But Master Chief in Shadows of Reach literally says that he knows what happened to him was wrong
Like he remembers being taken and replaced and knows it was a horrible thing
But he also knows that if it never happened than Humanity would be dead

dusk jetty
#

Master chief has also made peace with that fact as he has been privy to the defining moments in the galaxy

#

Naomi, has not

#

Naomi also probably knows this

#

She simply has a stronger sense of regret than John

minor sky
#

I don't really blame Osman for hating Halsey given how her augmentations went

modest marsh
dusk jetty
#

Lol no it isn’t

modest marsh
#

its a very in-your-face takedown of real life politicians

#

as has been stated by lucas many times

dusk jetty
#

It’s played by the same person the whole time but the two organizations are very different

#

Traviss doesn’t understand the republics flaws nor the Separatists

#

And trying to wrangle it into a black and white outlook isn’t at all what George intended

modest marsh
#

I dont think at any point you're supposed to be sympathetic towards the separatists in the actual source material

#

thats a revisionist perspective for the sake of eu material

dusk jetty
#

Try the opening crawl of Episode 2

#

Even 1

modest marsh
#

nah

dusk jetty
#

The republic is absolutely lazy and overbearing and the separatist movement is very clearly not fairly represented in it either

#

George says this himself too

#

You saying “nah” doesn’t make it untrue either, George worked in several episodes in the clone wars that go deeper into the dynamics

modest marsh
#

I dont think George made Nute Gunray a sniveling cowardly dork because you're supposed to think he has a point, its because he's a stand in for a GOP poilitician he doesnt like

dusk jetty
#

Did George say that Nute is the core of the movement?

#

No and he demonstrably isn’t

#

And Nute is a stand in for oligarchs if anything

#

More akin to Rome or Russia

#

But that’s irrelevant

modest marsh
#

No he's a stand in for a guy named Newt Gingrich lol it's absurdly in your face

dusk jetty
#

Yes he has two sides to his stand in

#

George does double edged swords all the time

#

We’re only considering movies anyway, Traviss is in the EU

#

The EU now and at the time did not encompass a single straight as an arrow commentary and it’s absurd to think that every author within it thought the same about the story

modest marsh
#

I'm being uncharitable towards your point, because my entire argument is that Traviss having a different stance on EU material that aligns with a more simplistic interpretation of the actual source material isnt wrong

dusk jetty
#

It being simplistic is detrimental to it though

modest marsh
#

is it

dusk jetty
#

Quite so yes because the setting of a spec ops story confronted by the sudden swing in command from a Republic to a literal empire is not black in white in nature

#

It’s like saying spetznatz didn’t change at all from USSR to Russia

#

It would be more black and white if she was writing about maybe a grunt trooper

#

Questioning loyalty shouldn’t be an expedited process no

#

Like we as halo fans should collectively at least agree on that

modest marsh
#

that depends

#

is your side committing a senseless genocide?

dusk jetty
#

It might’ve seemed just at first in Thels case

#

Nah didn’t seem he was devoted to it

modest marsh
#

his turn came rapidly once he had reason to question it

#

but he was a devout follower from the start

dusk jetty
#

He still carried out the word of the prophets even after the debacle on threshold

#

But he was questioning

#

It isn’t expedited in the games timeframe

modest marsh
#

?

#

the game takes place over a few days

#

well, depending which pov you're talking about

dusk jetty
#

Threshold is the gas giant where the oracle levels take place if that’s what your confused about

modest marsh
#

im aware

#

there's not much downtime between that and his deployment on delta halo

#

the entire battle of delta halo is over in 2 days

dusk jetty
#

It takes place over 28 days in total

#

Metropolis and Delta halo are about a week(?) separate

modest marsh
#

There's no big revelation that arbiter has because he reflected on what the heretic leader said

#

tartarus blasting him didn't even fully convince him that the covenant religion was a lie

#

he's still unshaken in his faith and coming to terms with whats happening as the gravemind is showing him proof

#

it isn't until his confrontation with tartarus in the control room does he finally admit that the covenant is built on a lie

#

there's nothing wrong with wanting more complexity out of your stories but video games and movies aren't as equipped as written prose to give as many angles on a given subject, and there's also the fact you have to tailor your story to your intended audience

#

for Star Wars, thats mostly kids, and for halo, its mostly gamers who want a reason to shoot stuff

minor sky
#

Every now and then you get something that sheds that angle though. Andor for example

modest marsh
#

lol

#

It’s kind of proving the case that people look for grayness in places that the text doesn’t intend and attempts to adhere to that original concept are met with friction by people who grew attached to their favored interpretation

minor sky
modest marsh
#

Like, okay, I think that although we see bits of this in the extended fiction, within the games it’s not clear at all that the UEG/UNSC are some kind of tyrannical authoritarian military junta, and for some that’s become the default interpretation

#

And in fact that’s what the halo show went with

#

But people who played the games took issue with this because it doesn’t resemble what they’re familiar with

minor sky
modest marsh
#

I don’t think anyone is “wrong” to have a preference, but one interpretation is closer to what the source material was going for

minor sky
#

Just the result of the EU material being religated to small references in the games during Bungie's era. Which mostly worked for them, but did lead to some issues later on

#

Granted with how Marathon's story unfolded, I doubt the Insurrectionist thing wasn't something from Bungie

modest marsh
#

I think if you asked Bungie the vast majority of them would say that the UNSC are unambiguous good guys who do what’s necessary to save the human race

#

I think it’s kind of telling that even after over two decades, there’s not even really much reason to support the rebels because the few times they’ve been “redeemed” or presented positively it’s because of their willingness to collaborate with the UNSC

#

Or at least the UNSC protagonists anyways

minor sky
glossy sun
#

You think Chief stank under the armor?

modest marsh
#

No

glossy sun
#

Lmao

modest marsh
#
  1. The undersuit is stated to have an antimicrobial lining and keeps the Spartan inside at a comfortable temperature while absorbing excess moisture for water reclamation
#
  1. the weapon says he smells fine
minor sky
modest marsh
#

I should learn more about marathon, if only because I’m one of those insane people who thinks it’s still canon to halo

minor sky
minor sky
#

Great way to get to know the lore/story of each of the original three games

glossy sun
#

It's the 26th flipping Century

minor sky
#

"Because they look cool"

glossy sun
#

Lmao

#

Antenna's going to get them sniped by Jackals lol

unique rune
#

if a sniper had the opportunity to go for that antenna I think they’d more likely go for the head that’s like right next to it

minor sky
#

In one of Escharum's audio logs he says that "if I fall two must take my place" do we know if he was reffering to anyone specifically?

glossy sun
#

I think he was just referring to the Banished in particular

#

If he dies than two other Jiralhanae would take his title of War Chief or whatever the same way he did Atriox

#

If those two die then the other three Jiralhanae will take the title

#

As he said the Banished is like a Hydra

#

It doesn't matter if you chop off the head (leadership) of the body (the Banished as a whole) because two more will form

hardy swan
#

what if you chop off everything

#

ha noobs lost Dorsaic

#

that's like half the body

glossy sun
#

Lmao

#

They still have all the Banished held planets
Moons of Dorsaic
Ark
Plus all the Dreadnoughts

hardy swan
#

Cortana should have finished the job

obsidian thistle
glossy sun
dense quest
#

i think they’ll probably crash into another planet due to the gravitational turbulence of their own planet being blown apart though

glossy sun
#

True

obsidian thistle
#

Hmmm if memory serves. Teash.

glossy sun
#

Foundry of Teash

modest marsh
#

The UNSC’s communications network relies on reliable coordination between ground and naval assets in space during battle where both sides are making use of ECM

#

Comms are thus proportionally more reliant on powerful relays in all likelihood

#

Even the covenant uses towers to boost signal

glossy sun
#

Ah okay

#

So that's why they still need the backpack radios with power transceivers and stuff

modest marsh
#

We don’t have any specifics about why they need to be bulky backpacks, but the pattern would suggest it’s because they need to be stronger due to the unique challenges of exoatmospheric communications

modest marsh
#

But yeah they’re built to handle the interference caused by things like signal jamming attempts or radiation from nukes and energy weapons

#

We see in Reach that a nearby glassing is able to wipe out long range communications for instance

glossy sun
#

True, true

empty bloom
#

In a combat environment with ortillery that can consist of orbit-delivered barrages in a multispectral EM field caused by pretty much everyone's guns and basic doctrine, to include EMPs, you'd end up needing a bulky radio to actually push through given the UNSC's tech.

orchid kettle
#

Visually as well, in Halo 2 you could see in the concept art that the Marines were inspired by like the Vietnam war era

#

so the radio packs are there to evoke that aesthetic

#

Reach gets called out as the tacticool Halo game but I think you can see in Halo 2 there was an attempt to bring in a lot more military influence than what we saw previously in CE

#

Weapons weren't shiny chrome anymore and they had functional optics even if the game didn't have actual ADS, Marines carried and setup machine guns in combat, there's a sniper-spotter team briefly at the start of Outskirts, and Marines wear radio backpacks

#

Looking back on it, even though Halo 2 marked this shift for Chief's characterization into the one-liner reciting action hero that he's known as in pop culture, you can tell there's a lot of love for the background characters as well

#

while i feel like 3 kinda pulled that back and only really cared about Chief in any given moment

modest marsh
#

I think part of that, aside from the artistic goals, was the game trying to come across as more professional and movie blockbuster-coded

orchid kettle
#

Yeah, it could also just be because Bungie wanted to show a UNSC in its "full power" or whatever compared to the scattered survivors of Alpha Halo

crimson monolith
stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

I remember when Ghost of Onyx placed that bit of lore, and I could kind of see how it could be used like that. I find it kind of lazy and stupid.

modest marsh
#

Honestly at this point it’s a little surprising they haven’t come up with a better long term solution, even just examining it from an in-universe perspective

#

It’s been nearly a decade and you have nearly 300 of these extremely useful but ultimately risky assets that you have to limit their use of because of an unintended quirk of their neurochemical modifications

#

You’d think they’d try to either reverse the effects or create a new implant protocol so they wouldn’t have to rely on a scheduled pharmaceutical treatment

crimson monolith
#

I mean I have a few gripes with the lore of the Spartan III's mainly that we were told all of Alpha company was killed, and only two of Beta Company survived. But then we got Noble Team coming in here and retconning so much lore.

#

And it's never said how many of Gamma Company survived the war

modest marsh
#

It’s implied nearly the entire company has survived, only the ones that perished on Onyx have been confirmed dead as of 2553

crimson monolith
#

Well I'm confused about one thing, can anyone explain this lazy recton to me? If in First Strike we get the first mention of Spartan III's

#

And its said that Halsey never knew about them until she gets into ONI's systems in First Strike

#

And only met them for the first time on Onyx

#

What the hell is Noble Team?

#

That retcons the Fall of Reach, First Strike, and Ghosts of Onyx

modest marsh
#

Spartan-II Class 2 was cancelled, so Halsey suspects that they either revived that program or it’s a competing program that just stole the name

crimson monolith
#

But she doesn't start piecing it together until First Strike

modest marsh
#

She only later learns that they specifically copied the program with a few key differences

crimson monolith
#

I'm still in the camp that Halo The Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, and Ghosts of Onyx take lore precedence over Halo Reach

#

That retcon seems to be just lazy writing to me

#

Because Halsey never met any Spartans III's until Onyx and only started knowing of their existence during First Strike. So how could she have met Noble Team? How could the Pillar of Autumn be pulling away from Reach while it had to go back to get the package from Noble 6? And in the Fall of Reach, Reach falls much quicker

dusk jetty
#

They work together mostly so I don’t mind

crimson monolith
#

To a degree

dusk jetty
#

There are head canons that can link the two

carmine sleet
#

There's plenty of lore which patches everything to fix the issues with the timeline of the Fall of Reach

crimson monolith
#

I like Halo Reach and all but I just feel like the stories of the books are better and the timeline makes more sense without that game

#

I wish Halo Studios would go more into depth on connecting these contradicting story lines

carmine sleet
#

They have

crimson monolith
#

Not enough

#

They still contradict a lot

#

Or maybe I'm just part of the old school of lore camp

modest marsh
#

There’s a lot from the early books that are internally incompatible with each other

#

The fiction just evolved to fit the needs of the storytelling

#

The same way the first game was obviously written as a Marathon sequel

crimson monolith
#

Maybe I'm looking into it too much then

#

I just really enjoyed the first four books 😭

modest marsh
#

There’s no reason to think you’re wrong for feeling that way, there’s just the Doylist reality of there being fundamentally different goals between entries and thus the lore shifted to accommodate that

#

The games do this to

crimson monolith
#

I also have another lore question that I never feel got answered

#

How did the Arbiter, 343 Guilty Spark, Johnson, and Maranda get back from 05? Is that ever explained in a book or something?

modest marsh
#

In CE, the Flood are explicitly immune to the effects of the halo array, whereas in 3 it’s implied it does affect them in actuality, and later material sought to amend this

crimson monolith
#

Halo Studios lore vs old Bungie lore

frigid heart
crimson monolith
#

Yeah because I know what the Chief is doing between 2 and 3. But not the rest

modest marsh
#

I figured the Shadow of Intent was responsible for getting them to Earth along with the Fleet of Retribution

autumn zephyr
stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

It would be nice if they could make a book out of that lol

stoic hamlet
#

I did a plausible timeline on it… last year, I think.

modest marsh
#

Ah, forgot it was 330 gammas total

crimson monolith
#

Or a comic

crimson monolith
stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

Well I thought in Ghosts of Onyx they say all 300 of Alpha were killed and 298 of 300 survived Beta Company

#

Maybe I missed that part

stoic hamlet
#

Gamma is the only one said in the actual book, but they’d all need more than 300 for the numbers to work.

And the book itself does technically imply this.

crimson monolith
#

Or it was retconed

modest marsh
#

300 is the “true” company size but it’s been retconned since then that there were units separated from the company after training

#

Ie headhunters

crimson monolith
#

I just feel like a lot of this retconning is lazy writing

#

On par with the Halo 3 to 4 thing of using "nanobots" to upgrade Chief's armor

stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

Can't they take more time and effort to make all of these pieces fit together seamlessly or nearly seamlessly?

modest marsh
crimson monolith
#

Still is lazy lol

modest marsh
#

Halo Reach in particular was meant to have a vastly different story

crimson monolith
#

As you say these retcons are needed for story telling and the needs of the games

stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

But why can't they shape the games around the overall narrative instead of the narrative around the games?

modest marsh
#

It’s likely it would’ve aligned closer to the book lore if they stuck to what they had originally

#

Because games are comparatively inflexible

crimson monolith
#

I think I'm just looking too deep into it all

stoic hamlet
#

Reach’s issues are easy to fix, 343/HS just (IMO) went the wrong way with most of them.

crimson monolith
#

They just need to retcon further

carmine sleet
#

At this point, I'd rather they not make any more stuff relating to Reach

stoic hamlet
#

No, they don’t need to retcon further.

They need to adjust where the retcons are.

modest marsh
#

Never stop Remembering Reach

crimson monolith
stoic hamlet
carmine sleet
#

Yeah...

modest marsh
#

Reach is the only event you’re allowed to care about

carmine sleet
#

I just am tired of getting stuff about Reach

modest marsh
#

Remember Earth? Nah, Reach is more important

crimson monolith
#

I mean all I want is for the writers to make it all make sense and right now there are a lot of contradictions I have found so far but, a lot to love.

stoic hamlet
crimson monolith
#

Real

#

And remeber the Keys Loop

#

Alright while we're on the topic, what book do you guys think is the weakest of the original four?

modest marsh
#

The Flood, easily

#

lol

stoic hamlet
#

Probably The Flood

But that’s because it was stuck retelling CE. Everything outside the Chief parts is great.

crimson monolith
#

I think First Strike is the weakest

#

First Strike to me felt very slow

modest marsh
#

This isn’t even a slight against Dietz specifically, being straddled with an ultimately redundant story harmed its potential to do anything interesting or surprising

autumn zephyr
crimson monolith
#

I only started reading the books about a year ago

#

And I have started binging them

modest marsh
#

The bright spots for The Flood are all things original to it

crimson monolith
#

I almost have them all but 6

autumn zephyr
#

Weirdly I loved The Flood, like you say due to the original stuff.

crimson monolith
#

I loved the flood too

#

I liked the extra stories

#

And I liked to keep being like "oh so thats what was going on while I was fighting there"

autumn zephyr
#

If the CE Remake is real, I hope it incorporates a lot of the extra stuff from The Flood

crimson monolith
#

Me too

#

But none of the endless bs

autumn zephyr
#

I hadn’t considered that, if they will try and tie it to the future of Halo’s story, whatever that might be

crimson monolith
#

I hope they don't tie in the endless

#

Nothing can be more deadly or a bigger threat than The Flood

carmine sleet
#

People really misunderstand that line

autumn zephyr
#

Very true. I’m not necessarily against the Endless, but that implies Halo Studios actually have to do something with them first.

crimson monolith
#

I just don't believe that they're cannon

#

I am against them

#

That was one of my main gripes with Infinite

vernal ingot
#

So, question, I am someone who prefers to ignore the whole “forerunners not being humanity” thing that halo 4 caused, but at the same time, am curious about the books that show the war with the flood.

Are they worth reading or are they just weird?

crimson monolith
#

From the bits I have read they are kind of a slow start

frigid heart
crimson monolith
#

But thats because they're building up the trilogy

#

Similar to Kilo Five

modest marsh
#

It’s important to note that there’s a bit of nuance to the “humans and forerunners are separate” thing

autumn zephyr
#

They are tough reads, but Cryptum is one of my fave Halo books. Equally, Primordium is one of my least favourites. Silentium is very good as well though. I’d deffo recommend the trilogy.

vernal ingot
#

I think the last halo book I read was the one where oni tries to sabotage the arbiter

crimson monolith
#

I might read them once I'm done with Kilo Five

modest marsh
#

That was first cemented in Greg Bear’s Cryptum, but there are breadcrumbs of a through line there

crimson monolith
vernal ingot
vernal ingot
modest marsh
#

It’s also important to note that Bungie weren’t necessarily of one mind on the issue, but the implication as of Halo 3 suggests that the forerunners were an uplifted branch of humanity rather than the whole of the human race being Forerunners (which is supported by the IRIS ARG and terminals)

vernal ingot
modest marsh
#

The forerunner trilogy also hints at this concept, what it changed was the idea that ancient humans were their own competing civilization

autumn zephyr
#

Maybe I’m just illiterate lol but when I first played Halo, it never even crossed my mind the forerunners were human

modest marsh
frigid heart
#

I think they are physically similar, but different. Like the engineers and humans in Prometheus.

vernal ingot
frigid heart
#

If they were to be human

modest marsh
#

But then halo 2 also depicts ancient structures being preserved on the ring, again possibly hinting at distinct branches of the species

vernal ingot
#

It always felt like one of those, “not outright stated but very true/obivous things” as the series went on

crimson monolith
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I mean in my head cannon I like to think of Humans and Forrunners as separate but, Humanity is their inheritors

modest marsh
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The current lore is that the precursors uplifted the forerunners millions of years ago from a common ancestor of modern humans and that their “natural” state is more anatomically similar to humans

#

That’s why the librarian looks so human, she has regressive traits from when our races were more similar

dusk jetty
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I feel like there’s a lot of animosity around the “retcon” of humans and forerunners that doesn’t really need to be there

crimson monolith
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I honestly kind of prefer Halo Studios retcon of that question

dusk jetty
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Like yes humans being forerunners adds story weight and poetic elements but all things considered what we got instead is not bad either

carmine sleet
# crimson monolith I just don't believe that they're cannon

You can dislike them, but the Endless are very much part of the Halo canon. They're not worse than the Flood in the sense of their capabilities of wiping out life, they're worse than the Flood to the Forerunners due to them surviving Halo and being a large risk to the plans the Forerunners had in place for when they were gone. The Endless would've had a serious advantage over the other species in the galaxy, something which would be a problem for the species the Forerunners want to inherit their position, humanity

autumn zephyr
modest marsh
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Again I think the real meat behind the retcon and the subsequent friction that people have is the idea that ancient humans and forerunners were enemies

carmine sleet
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It should be noted that the Forerunners are also extremely biased towards themselves

crimson monolith
carmine sleet
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That's not retconning the whole story

crimson monolith
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Therefore I will argue till my dying day it is not cannon

crimson monolith
dusk jetty