lore-and-universe

[vagrant ocean]

I wanna know if she’s related to Fal ‘Chavamee.

[stoic hamlet]

Assuming Mahkee is her surname, then no.

[vagrant ocean]

Mahkee is her given name.

[stoic hamlet]

Hrmmm, do we actually know her surname?

[fresh olive]

So im new to this franchise (not the tv show making me actually get into this game.😭 )
Give me random lore. It doesn’t matter i wanna know anything of this game.

[tacit reef]

you want to know something well play the game campain and ask about all you need and want to know

[carmine sleet]

Her full name is Mahkee 'Chava. We know she has two brothers who obviously use the same surname but we don't know if they are related to 'Chavamee. For all we know, 'Chava could be like the last name Smith where it's extremely common

[stoic hamlet]

Assuming it follows human naming conventions than she’d be unrelated.

Chava and Chavam aren’t the same.

Akin to Smith and Smithe, or Smyth.

And, even if they were the exact same, that doesn’t technically mean they’re related.

[carmine sleet]

Fair

[carmine sleet]

In 2015, during the Hunt the Truth marketing campaign, we got a single mention of an in-universe game called Unggoy Farmer. We do not know details about this game and how it plays

[stoic hamlet]

There’s a talk by GRRM about names, and how a lot of times, authors or writers or whatever intentionally use different names for every character, because it’s less confusing for them and the reader… but at least when it comes to humans, that’s not really a thing, a ton of people have the same name, or are named after parents or have a variation on a name if it was popular at the time.

For example, my cousin is named after my grandfather (mum’s father), my middle name is the same as my (other) Grandfather’s (my dad’s father), and my grandmother on my dad’s side married two people with the same first name. I guess she had a type.

[fresh olive]

I gotta figure out how to use xbox because ya boi is on ps so yeah i will but for now just spill them beans for me if u want too

[fresh olive]

HUH?

[carmine sleet]

It's just a small thing that I am cursed to remember

[hardy swan]

It could be a literal Unggoy farming sim or it could be farming Unggoy 💀

[neon remnant]

Why is it again that the didact hates humanity in halo 4? I know the ancient humans and forerunners fought a long and bloody war but is that really his only motivation?

[carmine sleet]

He doesn't like the idea of humanity being the successors to the Forerunners and believes only the Forerunners should be the ones to hold the Mantle of Responsibility. Plus he was also driven mad by the Gravemind during the later stages of the Forerunner-Flood War and the Librarian had sealed the Ur-Didact inside his Cryptum in the hopes he would heal via the Domain, not knowing until too late that Halo's fire would damage the Domain and leave Didact with nothing but his own madness for the time he was inside the Cryptum

[clever token]

I'm so glad the Swords of Sanghelios are a thing. Not only am I biased towards them, they're basically the Covenant, but did away with the classism and racism

I mean ffs, Dimkee Hotay was chilling with an Elite, enjoying a beautiful Sangheilian sunset

That and females are allowed to enter service

Though I am unaware of others besides Mahkee and Tul 'Juran. If anyone knows of other female aliens in service with the SoS, hit me up

[carmine sleet]

I wouldn't say the Swords of Sanghelios is basically the Covenant

[hardy swan]

Elites are woke now

[clever token]

I mean only in the multi-species sense

[clever token]

Whaddya mean they're wok—oh. I get it XD

[vagrant ocean]

‘Chava

[vagrant ocean]

Vedu ’Ehtar, Shipmistress of the Sword of Conjunction.

[gusty star]

The “m” present in Fal’s surname is possibly there to prevent his suffix (two vowels) immediately following another vowel (Chava), which would just sound weird. If that is the case, then they could still be related

[vagrant ocean]

This makes sense.

[karmic gulch]

They also don’t glass planets, don’t kill trillions of people (Idk the numbers), and don’t want to light the rings

[clever token]

#SwordsofSanghelios4Lyfe

[karmic gulch]

lol

[vagrant ocean]

By October of 2552 23 billion people were dead.

[karmic gulch]

oh ok

[sleek vigil]

There are 7 Halo rings.

Master Chief is currently stranded on Installation 07, Zeta Halo.

[strange pumice]

Don't forget about replacement for installation 04, it was 2 replacement, one destroyed, and another currently is nowhere

[sleek vigil]

I'm mixed on that. On one hand, the idea of slowly unraveling their mystery would've been definitely interesting and could've allowed for a long term story commitment, but at the same time, the lore foundation that was laid by the Forerunner triology was immense — Greg Bear was the master of the his craft.

It's clear that they first wrote Didact, and hired Greg Bear to write the novels. So, technically, internally, the extensive lore didn't exist when they wrote Halo 4 for the first time.

[orchid kettle]

I don't think that's really true, considering the terminals are essentially proto-Silentium

And chances are most of the actual lore bits came from 343

[drowsy mesa]

New Chronicle incoming!
https://youtu.be/9nHm2D4RODU?si=VAmtm7MSPvsjJVaW

[sleek vigil]

Which part you say not nescessarily true?

Didact?

That's kind of a broader point. Not to say 343 literally wrote Didact first, but Didact in the game does preceed Greg Bear's writing. He himself has said it.

[orchid kettle]

Well yeah because the Didact is a character from the Halo 3 terminals

Though clearly the idea of him actually being two separate dudes came later as 343 has to reconcile him being the guy who initially fired the rings with him being an ancient sealed away evil in 4

[sleek vigil]

He said that something along the lines of 343 showing him Halo 4 and Didact and asking to him write the backstory.

[orchid kettle]

Sure, that's basically what we get on Cryptum

[sleek vigil]

Why did they have to portray such a stereotypical looking Africa? 🤦‍♂️

[sleek vigil]

Yeah, that's my point. From 343's POV, their ideas do infact preceed the books. It's just not the public perception.

[orchid kettle]

but like I said, Im sure stuff like the Didact being two guys came from 343 in order to explain the man being in the Halo 3 terminals while also somehow being sealed away by the Librarian

You said the lore didn't exist when 343 wrote Halo 4

[sleek vigil]

Greg Bear's expanded material didn't.

[tardy olive]

im excited to read that trilogy is it difficult to comprehend?

[ionic tiger]

It’s Old Mombasa and it’s looked that way since at least Halo 2 and the Graphic Novel.

[sleek vigil]

Yeah, fair. I kind of wasn't a fan of that. Felt like some 21st century backwater city. The shops, the 'African kid' framing.

[orchid kettle]

i hate shops

[ionic tiger]

I’d imagine you’d see similar locales all across Earth tbh. Lots of places where time has kinda stood still. Mombasa is just an iconic location.

I don’t think there’s any malice to it.

[strange pumice]

I'd wanted to see Europe in the Halo timeline

[ionic tiger]

Least we know Big Ben’s still kicking.

Probably a lot of Old Paris still reflective of how it looks now given how a lot of development is stymied by the catacombs underneath.

[sleek vigil]

There's a new Paris?

[ionic tiger]

I’m just assuming there’d be old parts of cities regardless of location.

[carmine sleet]

Why is a kid being there an issue?

[sleek vigil]

Eh, every city doesn't need to have a 'new' counterpart. That's just my opinion.

[sleek vigil]

It's all just a feeling. We've seen the 'poor African kid' trope many times in popular media.

[orchid kettle]

Its clearly supposed to evocative of those images of like, American soldiers walking on a street contrasted against the native middle eastern population

like kids or women

[carmine sleet]

Yeah, and nothing about the image really conveys the kid is poor

[orchid kettle]

Where like, the military occupier is contrasted against the native people in such a way that it displays them as like a violent intruder, or at least, an intruder with the capability of violence

[carmine sleet]

Like sure the street is sandy looking, which is more often seen in less wealthy locations, but that's not really a sign the kid is poor

[ionic tiger]

If nothing else he just went to the corner store to buy Gatorade

[carmine sleet]

Aye

[frigid heart]

*Futuristic African Space Gatorade

[sleek vigil]

But those imageries are notorious for their desert dweller portrayal of Middle Eastern people.

[frigid heart]

Well after the flood and the covenant, I wouldn’t expect much infrastructure everywhere on earth

[sleek vigil]

Thanks, folks. I've never looked much into the Mombasa lore or the location itself. This was probably the push I needed. My opinions may change as I learn more. @carmine sleet @ionic tiger

[empty bloom]

Oo

[fair hazel]

That chronicle was really good

[fresh olive]

Ooo interesting 🤔

[sleek vigil]

Irs the Bungie's number - 7. 7/7 is Bungie day.

[fresh olive]

OH RIGHT

HOW CAN I FORGET..

😭

[sleek vigil]

But as previously stated, there are other 2 rings - replacement rings.

• Installation 08 replacing Installation 04 which got ripped into pieces

• Installation 09/Anders' Ring replacing Installation 08 (and 04) that also got destroyed.

[strange pumice]

Installation 09 was not destroyed

[sleek vigil]

That was not what I was saying.

Installation 09 - replacing - 08 that also got destroyed (just like 04 it was trying to replace).

[empty bloom]

So the implication I got is that either the Assembly Chimera has a new best friend or harvested his first victim.

[ionic tiger]

Smaller tragedy is seeing how people with memory problems (think dementia suffers) had AIs to help manage their conditions and Cortana’s rules against ripped that away and left them to suffer their conditions.

Doubly ironic given her own issues with rampancy were inspired by experiences with dementia.

[carmine sleet]

Nah, this Chronicle predates when the Executor was born. That was an outright composition happening at the end

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf, we don’t know when the latter scene happens.

But yeah it’s likely an actual composition.

[sour raven]

Do we know of anything in halo called Atropos?

[stoic hamlet]

No. Not as of yet.

[dusk jetty]

A composed essence inside an executor chassis would be really cool

[sour raven]

Executors use human bodies too, so would they use two humans for one unit?

[dusk jetty]

No, the executor we do know of is a full fledged cyborg

[carmine sleet]

Cyborgs are a marrage of machine and flesh, there's still human bits inside an Executor

[dusk jetty]

Itd be counterproductive anyway, two minds is more to argue

[carmine sleet]

Like, Master Chief counts as a cyborg thanks to his neural implant

[stoic hamlet]

All UNSC personnel do.

[carmine sleet]

Indeed

I was just using Chief as a main example

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe

[carmine sleet]

Either way, Executors are just more on the machine side since more of their bodies are replaced with machine, closer to Doctor Who's Cybermen

There's still a fleshy brain in there, meanwhile Promethean Knights are digitised entities controlling hard light bodies

[dusk jetty]

I was thinking how a promethean knight is, all machine with only an echo of a person, while the executor is full machine

While also not having the problems of a knight

[carmine sleet]

Executors aren't full machine though

[sour raven]

Yeah

[dusk jetty]

No this is me offering a hypothetical though

[sour raven]

They need bio

Ah ok

[dusk jetty]

An executor could do all a knight could with the added dexterity of the form it mimics

[sour raven]

Also, they are not connected directly to forerunner tech meaning the ai has full control

[dusk jetty]

I’d assume a part of a knight is more or less connected to either the domain or other intelligence given how the librarian could control them

So this hypothetical executor is only controllable by one entity

[thorn spindle]

sentinel enforcer

[empty bloom]

It's not quite that much. From the sound of it they actually retain a lot of original tissue, just modified a'la Spartans.

Judging by the description of some of the meaty bits.

[ionic tiger]

Kinda figured Executors were also somewhat like meat suits in a way.

[sour raven]

Gotta love the tech body horror

[empty bloom]

I believe they are basically like Big Daddies from Bioshock, actually.

Specifically the 'skinned before getting slotted into an entirely too invasive bodysuit, after a series of lobotomies and getting injected with god knows what' parts, and minus the weirder stuff.

[ionic tiger]

I could see that. I just wonder how much autonomy the individual Executor has. They primarily seem to be a vessel for an AI, so I’d imagine whatever consciousness is there is probably highly locked down.

[stoic hamlet]

It seems like it’s a bit of both.

Some armour mentions them as having spouts of free will and rebellion, others imply they’re just meat puppets.

[sour raven]

Theoretically

[carmine sleet]

More flesh mechs for the Created!!

[empty bloom]

Btw, you should link your bsky to your account :3

IIRC there is a specific module that mentions the AI assuming direct control over a Chimera wearer, to experience the world of meat vicariously through their host.

The Ghostlink Adaptation IIRC.

[karmic gulch]

Why do grunts and jackals not get infected by the flood?

[sour raven]

They are better as Biomass

[karmic gulch]

Oh, so the flood only wants to infect stronger being, like elites and marines?

[sour raven]

Si

[karmic gulch]

ok

thanks

[sour raven]

No problemo

[ionic tiger]

They do get infected, there just aren’t any models in-game for whatever reason.

[sour raven]

Was thinking of mentioning those but they aint in the main games

No wait, carriers

[carmine sleet]

There's Flood infected Grunts in Halo Wars if I recall correctly

[empty bloom]

And jackals.

Everything organic is infectable. Someone just wrote silly reasons to justify why things weren't infected before, and that's kinda the why.

... Except for Drinols/Sharquoi, for some reason.

[minor sky]

Aren't Hunters immune or at the very least difficult to infect?

[empty bloom]

Realistically they'd honestly be on the easier end of infectable.

Considering they form gestalt neural links, even one getting converted would corrupt an entire bonded pair, realistically.

[karmic gulch]

Chiefs extremely cool but also scary when he locks in during combat

I’m talking about Chief Vs Locke on meridian

[sour raven]

Immune yes, so they get turned into biomass instead! Im pretty sure

[sleek vigil]

The lackluster fist fight that resulted in nothing.

[karmic gulch]

Yeah but it was crazy

And shows that chiefs crazy in melee when he actually locks in

I think it’s funny how the rest of Osiris did absolutely nothing while chief and Locke fight

[sleek vigil]

What can they do? Even then, there's was a large distance between them.

[empty bloom]

... Crazy enough to almost lose if he didn't pull a headbutt off?

NGL people's retroactive memory of Halo 5's Locke vs Chief fight reminds me a lot of Magnus vs Leman in Warhammer 40K.

Everyone remembers Magnus getting his spine snapped by Leman, forgetting that he had punched out one of Russ' hearts before that point.

[karmic gulch]

The part where he completely counters the armour restraint

[empty bloom]

He... Countered it via headbutting. he was losing the strength contest at that point.

Mostly because Locke had him in a better hold that he was struggling to counter.

Locke had a really good showing in that fight, it wasn't a steamroll in Chief's favor.

[karmic gulch]

Was also lowkey cool when after his visor got cracked how he got up like nothing happened

[karmic gulch]

I’ll agree with that

[karmic gulch]

What would prefect be used for?

[minor sky]

Much as I don't care for that scene, Locke pointing his gun at Chief just as he gets the armor restraint put in him was pretty cool

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[minor sky]

The more I look back on Halo 5 and the wider reclaimer saga the more I realize that 343i's story was just too damn big for the games

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=idsRtQuIDe0&pp=0gcJCdgJAYcqIYzv

Anyway, cool video I found today on pre-Mjolnir armors

[empty bloom]

Yeah, overambition sums up a lot of Microsoft and 343's plans.

[minor sky]

Like I've been running it through my head for ages now how I'd try to tweak the Reclaimer Saga and I still keep hitting road blocks of "how do I incorporate this?" And "Where does this now fit on the timeline?" And "How does this get translated to fitting in with Halo's gameplay"

[empty bloom]

A while ago I discussed with lore and universe how I'd approach it.

For me, the basis is basically "4, 5, and Infinite are not in the picture whatsoever; We'd explore a former ODST Spartan IV navigating a post-HCW world in the Joint Occupation Zone"

[vagrant ocean]

Prefect is a testbed for reverse engineering Forerunner tech and adapting it to Human needs.

[empty bloom]

Chief stays out of the picture for the foreseeable future.

[karmic gulch]

oh

[karmic gulch]

why?

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe Chief adventures during the early war.

[vagrant ocean]

Not unlike Hellcat

[sour raven]

Build up hype for when he returns

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[empty bloom]

A few reasons, one of which is that I feel you need to establish the post-war era before you reintroduce Chief into it.

That said, I'd actually rather handle Chief like Soap from Modern Warfare; Someone you played as early, but watch evolve from a second perspective.

It allows Chief to evolve while you play as a character who is more of a skinsuit.

[karmic gulch]

could be cool

who would we play as instead?

[unique rune]

anyone
make up someone new

[orchid kettle]

the JO-Zone

[minor sky]

Like I'm kind of getting at that angle. The idea would be that the trilogy of Master Chief titles would be a part of a broader post-war narrative you'd see in other games. But I still don't quite know how I'd balance that without it becoming too big/out of control and winding up making similar mistakes

[orchid kettle]

Honestly there's a part of me that wishes that Chief just stayed gone and we did smaller scale side stories forever

[minor sky]

Honestly? I think the series might benefit from doing more games away from the main narrative and just telling stories within the universe. Give us a trilogy of Interplanetary Wars games or stuff set during the rise of the early Covenant

[karmic gulch]

like, Stayed on Foward Unto Dawn, adrift?

[orchid kettle]

And honestly even by "smaller scale" I feel like you could still essentially have the Zeta Halo plot

[empty bloom]

I... I said that?

[minor sky]

Spin off games just feel like a more viable way of growing the series' audience and interest with the wider universe without having to worry about how you can fit it into a traditional Halo game

[orchid kettle]

just don't say the Endless are worse than the Flood

[empty bloom]

#lore-and-universe message

[minor sky]

I feel that line is going to be the ultimate shot in the foot

[karmic gulch]

Oh sorry, didnt see that

[minor sky]

The moment you say that people's expectations are going to be high

[empty bloom]

I'd also say to make the player character ambiguous or having a choice between masc/femme coded as per modern standard gaming convention so you can fill the skinsuit more easily than Chief.

[orchid kettle]

Essentially. Chief in Halo 3 has an ending that's pretty much the King In The Mountain trope common in folklore and myth that involves some great cultural hero slumbering somewhere out of reach, but vows to return during humanity's darkest hour

[karmic gulch]

Personally I'd like a game like halo reach, where we play as a character we created

[orchid kettle]

and that's basically Chief's deal. Wake me when you need me. Ideally, you'd never need to wake Chief again.

[minor sky]

Like it feels like a win-win, you get to have more people come on board to the series who maybe wouldn't normally pick it up, and you also don't make long-time fans upset by changing things to make it appeal to said people

[karmic gulch]

That would be cool

[empty bloom]

More or less what I'm saying.

[karmic gulch]

Ohhh ok

[orchid kettle]

There's also this idea that as a child soldier raised and trained for nothing but war, Chief doesn't really have a place in a post-war galaxy

[karmic gulch]

Open world?

[empty bloom]

Doesn't have to be.

[karmic gulch]

so he comes back when their in war again?

[orchid kettle]

Its honestly wild to me how the JoZ apparently doesn't have any confirmed instances of Sapien Sunrise running amok

[empty bloom]

My point is that Halo should've been more about the universe than Mr.Halo himself.

[karmic gulch]

Yeah

I'd love more open world halo games

[empty bloom]

It was a smarter choice given the world they made.

[karmic gulch]

maybe even a No Man's Sky type of halo game where you play as a human explorer

[orchid kettle]

Honestly if time travel existed Id probably just use it to zip back to 2011 and hand 343 all their material on Glyke, the JoZ, Sapien Sunrise, and the Banished

[karmic gulch]

lol

[orchid kettle]

because those are really the elements Id wish we accounted for early on

[minor sky]

I honestly wonder if we should've just had Spartan Thorne be our POV character in the series going forward and have the narrative just focus on post-war conflicts.
But at the same time I like Halo 4's narrative and the Forerunner Trilogy too much to say that

[orchid kettle]

Glyke especially because I feel like with that event you'd instantly have a better justification for antagonistic Sangheili

[karmic gulch]

You guys think this could be cool? It would really just give us a chance to explore the Halo universe

[empty bloom]

"You need to do more with this, 343i"

-Moments before masked Microsoft agents burst through the window, bringing a halt to your optimistic broad-strokes expansion of the Halo universe at gunpoint

[orchid kettle]

nuh uh i brought a fidget spinner back with me and their minds collapse at witnessing its glory

[karmic gulch]

lol

[minor sky]

A hooded figure walks through the door surrounded by black ops agents bearing the Windows insignia. He removes his hood revealing the face of at the time Microsoft CEO Steve Balmer

[orchid kettle]

in any case, I think 343's core issue is that they kinda jump on an idea too early in the brainstorming phase and end up seeming super noncommittal when they inevitably run into some issues

[minor sky]

More or less

I think they really needed more time before doing Halo 4

[empty bloom]

I mean, literally every single main writer they have ever had has left within a game of their taking of the role.

[orchid kettle]

like remember when Escalation hinted at the Flood being on the SoF, which was apparently an early idea they had for HW2

but then when that changed they needed to make a short lil comic where Jerome solves the problem and goes back to sleep and no one ever mentions it again

[empty bloom]

That said, I have a pet theory that the post halo 5 plotline pains were actually due to Microsoft not liking the concept of an anti-AI plotline right after releasing the Cortana AI helper while they embraced LLMs.

[orchid kettle]

if you believe what 343 has to say, they've apparently planned Evil Cortana since 4

[minor sky]

I still don't know if I fully believe that but who knows

[orchid kettle]

which i dunno if i personally buy since I remember there being the opposing story of 343 coming up with Sloan first before deciding they wanted the Created to have somebody more personally involved with Chief to take the reins

which i find easier to believe if only because Sloan has kinda now become the only real Created leader of note in the post-Cortana era

[empty bloom]

I could actually see that. 5 Cortana is not exactly telegraphed, but there's a reason I was wholly unsurprised.

[minor sky]

I personally think they should've kept the Didact as the antagonist for the Reclaimer Saga

[empty bloom]

It's all the Halseyisms, as I like to point out so obnoxiously whenever the topic of Guardians comes up.

[empty bloom]

Him being the primary antagonist of 4's main campaign was a mistake.

Him even showing up was a mistake really.

[minor sky]

I disagree but ok

[orchid kettle]

In either case-- 343 is very wish-washy

[empty bloom]

Entirely too embracing of criticism from unworthy and worthy sources alike.

[orchid kettle]

hell right now it feels like they can't decide on how ruthless Cortana actually is

Empty Throne basically only works if Cortana just leaves Earth alone

[empty bloom]

Which... Doesn't make a ton of sense.

[orchid kettle]

and yet, this chronicle shows us that she very much did not do that

[empty bloom]

They bring up this Venator-wearing Spartan, who then proceeds to never actually interact with the main character beyond that scene.

[orchid kettle]

its a whole lot of wanting their cake and eating it too

[minor sky]

Do I think they should've handled him better with more direct presence? Yes
Do I want to live in a world where we don't get Keith Szarabajka voicing him? No. No I do not.

[empty bloom]

I mean I had a nicer response to it on Bluesky

https://bsky.app/profile/trenchbird.bsky.social/post/3ltmvjvks422t

But

At the same time

I do want them to choose a path for Cortana and hard commit to it.

[minor sky]

The whole Created plotline was a mess, and I don't blame some people for viewing it as a "Jump the shark" moment

[minor sky]

"Dead"

[orchid kettle]

my hot take at this point I think is that Empty Throne doesn't fit with the chronicles at all

[empty bloom]

Beyond her being dead.

[orchid kettle]

and while the chronicles can be hit or miss at times, I think I like the world they paint more

Even if its the world with edgy cannibal Zane

[empty bloom]

I think the Moonrise over Mombasa art is heavily edited LLM "Art".

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but it makes me wonder. It sets off the usual alarms in my brain.

[orchid kettle]

at least a character in that Dare chronicle recognizes that the UNSC is weakened

you'd never know it from reading Empty Throne

[orchid kettle]

I feel like the artist started tracing a Spartan and halfway realized it was supposed to be something else

but, like, just didn't go back to fix what they already drew

[empty bloom]

The signs have the telltale signs of AI generation, looking at them again-mostly in the Materials Group sign and the wall wires behind the armiger.

Or how the door behind the Armiger doesn't match up right.

[orchid kettle]

Halo never beating the life support allegations

[empty bloom]

I legitimately hate having a brain that notices that crap with art. I feel like not being able to notice it would be a boon to my wellbeing.

No wonder people think I'm insanely high strung and combative.

... Aside from me being highstrung and combative normally anyways.

That said, I think the actual writing itself was written by human fingers, and I liked the story.

[minor sky]

One of these days I'm going to actually sit down and try to really work out how to restructure/rework the Reclaimer Saga. Because as it sits in my mind, I'd have to find a way to take some 7 different storybeats and weave them together to fit into 4 or so first person shooter games

[empty bloom]

I was always considering just doing a fan novelization of every halo game a'la the flood

[minor sky]

don't you love one of your favorite fictional universes being owned by a multi-billion dollar tech company who couldn't care less about it beyond it being a label to slap on a Game Pass sign up screen?

[empty bloom]

Halo needs more love, it's true.

[orchid kettle]

Regardless of the actual quality of the stories being made, 343 was sitting pretty for a while in terms of all the side material they were pumping out

It just now kinda feels like after the CoD buyout, sugar daddy Microsoft is now asking itself if Halo should really hold onto that blank check

[empty bloom]

I kinda figured that'd be what happens.

[minor sky]

Xbox doesn't need Halo that much

They exist more as a publisher now so why put that much stock into your exclusive franchise

I think after Halo Infinite came out and clearly did not go the way anybody wanted it to, Microsoft decided it wasn't worth the effort anymore or something along those lines

Halo is too well known of franchise to stop doing stuff for, but they don't view it as top priority

[unique rune]

I can kinda see it tbh
a lot of Halo 4’s unused/cut dialogue felt like it was leaning in that direction from what I recall of it

it’s not really obvious in the final game but the seeds of it seem like they were there at some point in development

[minor sky]

I feel like if they were going to do Evil Cortana and have her work they needed to actually sell us on it from the get go and not have it seem like her death is final

Maybe it's just me but I think Halo 4's ending pretty clearly sets up the Didact as the antagonist of the next game with it's ending. As well as the idea of the Master Chief going to have to grapple with Cortana's loss and his broader humanity

Between the Didact's speech, "She said that to me..... about being a machine", and us ending the game with images of the Master Chief dowerly marching to get his armor removed piece by piece before his helmet is removed to reveal those blackened, haunted eyes

Thats just me speaking, of course. I don't know how you guys might've viewed it.

Also "She said that me.... about being a machine" is probably Steve Downes' best line delivery in the whole series. He says it with such fragility, and it really sells you on the weight of that moment for Chief.

I also think it is the one moment in the games that has come closest to making me tear up

[stoic hamlet]

His best lines IMO are his deletion codes in infinite, and a very easy to miss line when you reach the dig site, both for their connections to the books.

[hot ravine]

You would be mistaken lol. It's rapid-iteration concept art from around 2018.

[carmine sleet]

That's nice confirmation to have

Also oh worm, a rare Harupis sighting on the Halo Discord

[empty bloom]

Ah, like the Halo Wars 2 concept art that had Spartans who were comprised of multiple different pieces of Spartan art and renders? I'll take your word for it, then.

I do recall HS having an interesting reaction to getting called out on it in the past on Twitter, and it can be hard to tell these days-I was mostly going off what looked like letter 'smears/hallucinations' on the Materials group signs and the texture work of the wall between the legs of the armiger, but I'm glad I'm just being paranoid in my attention.

[hot ravine]

(Yeah, gen AI is a personal line for me that will bring me out of the woodwork lol)

[carmine sleet]

Glad we share the same line

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I feel a little bad now.

[frail halo]

Highly appreciated. Extremely, even.

[vagrant ocean]

My lord, I kneel before ye, guide us on the Journey to Salvation

[vagrant ocean]

I knew it. People saying it was AI.

Shameful.

[empty bloom]

As I said, it hit some of the same 'this doesn't look right' triggers in my brain.

[sleek vigil]

Oh, I thought it was an original art work for the Chronicle. It's a concept art from 2018? I see.

[sleek vigil]

It's funny to see a weirdly positive reaction to the Chronicle from people who would've hated the Created back then.

[sleek vigil]

They said they wanted evil Cortana because they changed from Reclaimer Triology to Reclaimer Saga, so they needed a long running villain. What about Didact? I just don't know the reasoning, I'm simply saying what they said.

[minor sky]

Oh ik, I'm just stating my opinion

[empty bloom]

Illegal.

[sleek vigil]

I was also simply sharing information, lol

[minor sky]

S'all good

[sleek vigil]

I just found it funny that their 'reasoning' doesn't make much sense and they don't elaborate on it.

[vagrant ocean]

People just aren’t used to concept art anymore. AI has fried our brains.

[empty bloom]

🤨

No, I am very used to concept art. Sometimes things just ring as false positives.

[vagrant ocean]

I said people, not you specifically.

People meaning humans in general.

[unborn patrol]

you definitely seek out the sort of imperfections AI makes now. but theres already a lot of content being created you cant tell from real life pictures so itll probably be a matter of time before it gets art styles down

[vagrant ocean]

The Assembly is forming.

[unborn patrol]

unfortunately

[vagrant ocean]

The Assembly is ok since they guided our expansion, I’m just worried this iteration will be more direct.

[unborn patrol]

I feel like the assembly is so much more sinister than we know yet

like were pigs for slaughter

[vagrant ocean]

Also, the story implies the Created have a Composer.

[unborn patrol]

dont know anything about it but wouldnt surprise

cortana has had access to so much forerunner tech

[vagrant ocean]

At the very end it mentions the MC’s body burning away in flakes, much like Tilson.

[unborn patrol]

I dont know the story at all but I feel like the composer effect is pretty similar to what the forerunner guns do to you? visually at least

it just somehow saves your data doing that

[sleek vigil]

Talking about Composer, how many of you knew Kazuma Jinnouchi's Halo 4 compositions were mixed by Remote Control Productions? I know I didn't till now. ☝️

[vagrant ocean]

I unno

[sleek vigil]

While Hans Zimmer doesn't make videogame music, his company and collaborates are very much involved in it.

Halo 4 was mixed by acclaimed Alan Meyerson at RCP. He has worked on Dark Knight, Dune among many projects.

[unborn patrol]

thats cool

Im not familiar with the names but

it makes sense that whoever did that worked on other projects with great pieces of music

[sleek vigil]

The cinematic quality is clearly there.

[unborn patrol]

definitely

surprised no ones gotten zimmer on a game

would think thats the ultimate challenge for any composer. especially with music being sort of interactive in games changing with what you do etc

[sleek vigil]

He has said he believes games are absolutely an art form, he just prefers movies because of the familiar workflow.

Though... Code of Conduct.

[unborn patrol]

old man sticking to what he know

[sleek vigil]

Ramin Djawadi did a great job with Fallout in terms of making it sound Fallout.

[unborn patrol]

yeah hes especially great on intros

has a very haunting light sound to him

but also pacific rim with the action stuff

[sleek vigil]

Still thinking, you know, if they really wanted to give scoring season 2 to a company, they could've given it to Film Scores LLC. Don't get me wrong, Sparks & Shadows ain't bad, but Film Scores LLC has actual hands on experience scoring for Halo.

[karmic gulch]

Can any tech suit be used with any MJOLNIR armor

Like can Mk VII mount to a Mk V B Techsuit?

[frigid heart]

I don’t think so, different eras of armor, different mounting systems

[karmic gulch]

Yeah that’s what I was thinking

[empty bloom]

Unclear.

The hard plating might mount fine but GEN2 is mostly characterized by hotswappable armor systems, with most major components integrated at a techsuit level, to include most reactors and sensors.

[karmic gulch]

ohhh ok

[empty bloom]

GEN3 presumably is less strict about said implementation.

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[empty bloom]

GEN Nulls, such as Rakshasa and Osteo, on the other hand-suits that defy conventional descriptors-have fewer identifiable swappable characteristics. With Rakshasa ostensibly (through design details) looking equivalent to a naked GEN2 techsuit, and Osteo being a bespoke standalone line a'la RKD group's early HAYABUSA line, this casts doubt on interchangeability between the latter and former.

[karmic gulch]

ok

[empty bloom]

Most ostensible shoulder armors-as in, Up-Armor plates-are going to be functional on any suit, due to being a sensorless spaulder, but more elaborate and integrated components such as AESA stealth plating may not have complete functionality.

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[empty bloom]

Additionally, tactical rigging such as Field Kit Romeo is likely to be universal, but this is not reflected in Infinite's armor system.

[karmic gulch]

true

[karmic gulch]

Could Osteo be used as an EVA suit?

[orchid kettle]

every MJOLNIR suit can assumingly

Rakshasa probably doesn't have a great amount of air but still

[karmic gulch]

oh ok

any attachments that could help a space explorer for Osteo? Im trying to make a Frontier explorer fit

[carmine sleet]

It's primarily a HAZMAT suit but I imagine that it's got to have the capability to operate in space due to potential of needing to insert into a hazardous area via a space walk

[karmic gulch]

yeah

[orchid kettle]

There's a couple helmets that mention the wearer working in space I believe

[karmic gulch]

EVA?

[orchid kettle]

like one used by salvagers, digging around in the remains of UNSC ship debris like that saddle box guy from the TFOR definitive edition adjunct

[karmic gulch]

oh ok

[orchid kettle]

https://www.halopedia.org/VOIDSPEAR-class_helmet

also this

[karmic gulch]

ok

[last anchor]

Space counts as a hazardous enviroment.
Its also been noted to be used in shipbreaking.

[last anchor]

Voidspear, Breaker, EVA obviously, Orbital.

[gusty star]

Not to necropost but I also just remembered there is also Olabisi Varo'dai and her rangers

[empty bloom]

• The Voidspear Class Helmet is meant for spaceborne combat engineers.
• The Ashmaw Class Helmet's description mentions thriving in "Stygian Hulks", presumably meaning decrepit ship hulls.
• The FAM-90 Stabilizer is meant to stabilize gravitic issues-such as the gravity plating abundant in UNSC ship design.
• The K-Shok Dampeners are meant specifically to be used in zero gravity environments, being kinetic dampeners.
• The Scantek 6300MIL is a set of computers meant for salvaging ship components.

The Scantek 6300MIL is presumably useable in any environment.

[stoic hamlet]

The wiki is sad that no one uses it to answer their questions.

[obsidian thistle]

Dont worry

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/471722331820130326/1371906083332817026/ezgif-3-a721793714-1.gif

We love you!

(We love you all)

[karmic gulch]

Thank you

[karmic gulch]

Any chest attachments?

[unique rune]

better get to reading https://www.halopedia.org/Armor_customization_(Halo_Infinite)#tabsection-2-7

[karmic gulch]

ok

[jaunty bear]

gonna try a halo book eventually, more of a new halo fan. played CE and reach so far. i'm aware of certain books spoiling certain games, so it'll likely just be fall of reach for now.

[gusty star]

I mean you can pretty much read all of the Bungie books after playing Halo 2 without encountering any spoilers

Though I find it to be a more enjoyable experience to read Contact Harvest after beating Halo 3 and/or Reach

[vagrant ocean]

You can also read Halo the Flood

[karmic gulch]

are there spartans whos jobs are to explore space for forerunner artifacts?

[empty bloom]

Yes.

Well, more accurately, guard scientists doing that.

[karmic gulch]

Oh so I could have my fireteam do that and still stick to canon?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes

[karmic gulch]

Cool!

[karmic gulch]

Can someone send the halopedia link to it?

Btw, how likely is it that a spartan would be in command of a prowler (saharra class since that has a slipspace drive)

[mystic peak]

heavily recommended

I loved the books

however im a bum and listened to them instead of reading em

[tired peak]

Rid u know Since the guilty floats... if you angle your slef with another player... you can pet other players

[gusty star]

I guess you could technically say that happened with Serin and the Port Stanley, but she’s technically not a Spartan soooo

And James-005 had a personal prowler in Empty Throne

But I’d generally say that Spartans are too involved in direct combat to be commanding ships

[karmic gulch]

alr

might work for my new storyline

[karmic gulch]

Is this something under ONI section 3?

[empty bloom]

Not very likely at all.

A Spartan is not a Naval Commander, but they would likely operate under a task force subordinate to one.

[karmic gulch]

Oh so They'd be assigned to one?

[empty bloom]

Affirmative.

[hardy swan]

Spartans should all be given the rank of general

Atleast the IIs

[empty bloom]

They are all Navy, so they cannot be Generals.

Also, they should not be Generals, because that is a role they are not suited for.

The only IIs who are generals are ones who rely more on their mind for strategy and logistics than their physicality (Which was failed by the augmentation process going awry) for a reason.

[stoic hamlet]

But Trench, don’t you know Spartans are literally the greatest ever and can do no wrong and are the smartest and clearly superior to everyone else?

I mean smh, fr fr.

[hardy swan]

I mean it worked out for the Jedi…

[vagrant ocean]

I know a Spartan who piloted a Winter-class. A few of them actually.

[vagrant ocean]

I actually have a few that do that.

[karmic gulch]

does winter class have a slipspace drive?

[vagrant ocean]

Yes, it’s how Blue Team got to Meridian in H5.

[karmic gulch]

Oh ok then

[fair hazel]

Too bad the ship gets abandoned

[fair hazel]

Not the same thing

I also want halo studios to stick to depicting and going on with the created and not the under the rug

[obsidian thistle]

The funny thing is that it was part of Osiris' mission to recover it.

[carmine sleet]

They should've, the Winter class is a real nice looking ship

[carmine sleet]

It really didn't considering it was just yet another thing which showed how far they had strayed from what the Jedi were supposed to be, and it led to their near extinction at the hands of the very troops who commanded them

[fresh granite]

Stupid question time: Is there canonically a Sangheili equivalent to coffee?

[empty bloom]

One would assume, though we wouldn't know what it is. Stimulants are kind of a major part of social development as a species.

[thorn spindle]

They steal grunt methane packs and deep inhale

[karmic gulch]

What does Mk VII [B] Look like? it mentions it in UA/Arethor but I cant find anything on it in Halopedia.

[dusk jetty]

https://www.halopedia.org/MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor/Mark_VII

Click the gen1 button on the thumbnail

[karmic gulch]

Ohhh i thought that was just a prototype, not a whole new variant

[dusk jetty]

It’s named VII (b) because the only image we have of it is pretty much 1-1 to V (b)

The official name is just MK VII gen1

[karmic gulch]

Yeah

[carmine sleet]

The Gen 1 suit isn't Mark VII [b]

[dusk jetty]

As we already discussed 🙂

[carmine sleet]

It's just a weird thing where for whatever reason, Gen 1 Mark VII looked like Mark V[b]

[orchid kettle]

which itself looked like Mark IVb

[carmine sleet]

Yeah, gotta love the reuse of armour from previous live action projects for later ones

[stoic hamlet]

Stuff can’t just be artistic licence, sadly.

[orchid kettle]

I meant Gray Team's armor in Cole Protocol as well

personally I dont really mind it for Mark IV since if anything I think it makes more sense if MJOLNIR largely looks the same throughout the Marks, and the big changes are just internal

[sour raven]

I kind of like that different artstyle’s can be explained as different things, adds more variety but I dont care if something’s looks is changed without explanation

[orchid kettle]

it is pretty scuff in FuD when Kelly shows up in Kat's live action armor but with a kneepad glued to her face

i dunno why the normal AA helmet would have been an issue. Confirmation that AA didn't exist in 2526, maybe?

[obsidian thistle]

They probably didnt want people thinking Kelly was Kat

[minor sky]

Quick question-
I remember somewhere somebody (I think it was LNG) who summed up Jul's Covenant as believing that "Rather than firing the Halo rings, finding and mastering Forerunner technology/artifacts would be the gateway to enlightenment". I am paraphrasing off of what I remember from a long time ago, but how accurate is that description?

[orchid kettle]

Honestly I have no idea where that really came from

Jul himself isn't a believer, he's just appealing to religious extremists to further his own ends

And honestly their spin on the Covenant religion has never really been explored that much beyond "They know the Great Journey and the Prophets are bogus"

I think what's really unfortunate about Jul's Covenant as a faction is how there's not actually that many characters in said faction, leaving you with basically just like, Jul himself, Gek, and 'Nyon

Which maybe by itself wouldnt be the worst thing in the world but I think when you combine it with Jul's own beliefs not aligning with his followers, you get this sense that the faction exists purely to give Jul an army to fight the UNSC characters with

and you cant even really extrapolate Jul's own motivations and goals onto the rest of the faction

[empty bloom]

#general-chat message

I didn't realize you just brought this up lmao

[minor sky]

I could just be misremembering the phrasing of whoever it was who said it, but that does seem like something of the closest approximation to what they might've believed 🤷

Jul's Covenant not even having a proper name is really weird too

Really their whole presence is kind of weird. They don't have a ton of narrative presence in Halo 4. Beyond Jul and one or two others they aren't really elaborated on from what I can tell, and they are tossed out of the story by the end of Halo 5

And I think its a bit of a shame when they do seem like a cool idea on paper.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah I think there's a reason people got really attached to the name "Storm" even if it was ultimately incorrect

Like it sounds obvious but for storytelling purposes it helps if a faction has their own name

Even in Jul's origin we had the Servants Of The Abiding Truth

which I think helped communicate the idea that they had their own views separate from the Covenant

[minor sky]

It doesn't help that 4 never gives them a proper explaination

[orchid kettle]

Even in-universe, the name "Covenant" comes from the literal covenant made between the San Shyuum and the Sangheili

[minor sky]

Cortana says "a lot can happen in four years" but we never learn what happened in four years

[orchid kettle]

so it doesn't really feel like you can make a claim to the Covenant of old if its not essentially a San Shyuum-led endeavor to achieve the Great Journey

because forerunner worship alone isn't sufficient, the Sangheili and San Shyuum worshipped the Forerunners separately for thousands of years before they actually met

[minor sky]

I've brought up here once or twice about maybe having Jul's Covenant slowly become more a powerful galatic force over the course of the games. Have them first be seen as a small fleet of zealots and disgrunted generals that, after Requiem, grow more and more powerful. Other Splinter factions either fall in line or are brought into the fold by force.

Jul uses his status as "The Didact's Hand" as a way of inserting himself into post-war Sanghelios, with the ultimate goal of taking over and getting revenge on humanity or whatever his evil plan would be

The Civil War on Sanghelios seems like such a natural way of picking up the story after Halo 3. Yet we don't really get a ton of stuff with it in Halo 5

Like we go to Sanghelios but we don't actually get a proper look into the politics of the conflict like we did in Halo 2

[orchid kettle]

I think early on 343 were just really having a hard time with fleshing out enemy factions, there's honestly a similar vibe with the NCA where they're essentially "more Innies", but they were never explored super well and they felt rather aimless in their goals

which granted Atriox's grand plan isn't always obvious either but at least the solution they came to was to just make "Dude just wants more power" a part of his character

[minor sky]

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I think they just needed more time

[orchid kettle]

Yeah there's a part of me that thinks there's a version of the post-war material where 343 had the idea for the Banished and dare I say Sapien Sunrise early on and could weave that into the overarching story a bit cleaner

Like a big part of what makes the post-war unique is the idea that humans are living alongside aliens, even on lawless worlds like Venezia or in the Banished

[minor sky]

Also it is a little odd how the Covenant in Halo 4 were so reduced when early versions of the game, from what I can tell, had them be more present

[orchid kettle]

the Sapien Sunrise are then really interesting as, you know, the one force that seeks to challenge this change

[minor sky]

Mhm

[orchid kettle]

I could even kinda stomach the Order of Restoration if we kept them to Jiralhanae and San Shyuum only instead of Dovo Nesto somehow convincing Elites and Brutes to play nice again

[minor sky]

Yeah I don't really see how that works when Elites and Brutes didn't get along to begin with

[orchid kettle]

if the "theme" was more explicitly about how some people are stubbornly holding onto the old and broken, and the Jiralhanae who side with the Banished instead of the Covenant Loyalists are seen as like taking a risk on somethingnew

and the Jiralhanae I think would have greater reason to want to cling to the Covenant because Truth promised them the world like, only a few years ago

And they don't have any other allies to fall back on like the Sangheili do

[minor sky]

Right.

[orchid kettle]

Honestly, gist is: post-war era should have been characterized as an exploration of humanity's relationship with the aliens, as well as every species' own unwillingness to accept the new status quo, exemplified by Sapien Sunrise for humans and the Order of Restoration for the aliens

Like these elements are there in a lot of stories but I'd like for these to be pillars for all future stories

barring anything that's like, otherwise super personal for one character like Rion Forge's whole journey

Though you could argue even Rion's story has elements of needing to let the past go

[minor sky]

I kind of wonder if the Forerunner stuff being the vocal point of this era was a mistake

Much as I love the Didact, I do feel like exploring more of the Forerunners got in the way of looking at the Post-War Galaxy

Granted I know that exploring the Forerunners was a natural next step, hell Bungie seemed to want to go into that direction based on what Marcus Lehto said, but hindsight is 20/20

And thats not to argue that you couldn't have them both. Just that it'd be a much more difficult balancing act.

[orchid kettle]

Im sure the idea with the Didact is also like "He's obsessed with bringing the Forerunners back even though that time has passed"

its just kinda harder to keep him in the story imo and has the same problem as the other factions I mentioned where there's only really one character in said faction and everybody else is just cannon fodder

like you can't keep him around for too long because then all the Forerunner-worshipping guys just flock to him

and then the tides turn a lil too much against our heroes

[minor sky]

Like I said, it's not that they couldn't have it work. Just that it would be very difficult to get right

And with all the things 343i had to do at this time I don't know if they were equipped to do that

You have to tell a story about post-war interplanetary politics, a character study and emotional journey for the Master Chief, and also tie it into a warrior still fighting a battle that ended hundreds of thousands of years ago.

For what it's worth, Locke was an excellent way to explore the first and second plot points on paper

[orchid kettle]

I think too I just like the Forerunners as just a thing characters argue about and use to justify their actions, but Im not super concerned with them on their own

[minor sky]

Yeah I get that. Still, I am too fond of the Didact to want to say I wouldn't want him as the antagonist in a game

And I do think he works well as something of a rival for the Master Chief. His dark reflection almost

[orchid kettle]

personally the attempts to make a Chief parallel haven't really stuck the landing for me

I think what they kinda miss is that the characters Chief is contrasted against end up being incredibly influential leaders of their respective factions, if not outright the leader

[minor sky]

Reffering to the Didact or.... Del Rio?

[orchid kettle]

And that affords them a lot more personal agency and ultimately culpability that I dont think you can really relate to Chief

[orchid kettle]

like Didact and Escharum

[minor sky]

Oh ok

[orchid kettle]

They're both supposed to be Chief parallels but I always found the connection flimsy

[minor sky]

Sorry, my brain was still on early-2010s Halo stuff when you said that

[orchid kettle]

If anything they'd probably feel more akin to Arbiter as the leader of the newly established SoS

And Arby himself is probably the only Chief parallel that worked because he became little more than a living weapon to be used and disposed of as the true leaders of his faction saw fit

even if Chief's people at least treat him nicer

but of course Arby grows past that stage in his life

[minor sky]

I think Didact works for me as they both share common backgrounds as people who whose lives existed to fight in wars, who lost the things keeping him tethered to the world and I think there is an interesting direction they could've gone in to show that mirror

[orchid kettle]

I think what you'd need for Didact to really stick the landing is for him to be obsessed specifically with bringing the Librarian back to life somehow, mirroring Chief's own desire to keep Cortana alive past her set expiration date in Halo 4

[minor sky]

Hm.

[orchid kettle]

Because as is, the Didact plot exists in a vacuum from the Cortana mortality side of the story

barring Cortana needing to sacrifice herself but you could argue that could have happened no matter who the villain actually was as long as the situation called for it

[minor sky]

I don't know quite how well that angle would work with how the Didact is (haven't finished the Forerunner trilogy just yet.) But that isn't a horrible idea on paper.

Still I do really fw the basic pitch of "Last surviving member of his species fighting a battle that ended thousands of years ago". Even if it is just in a vaccum.

I am of the opinion that the Didact needed more direct presence in Halo 4 as well as more set up/exploration in the game separate from the terminals

[orchid kettle]

You'd also probably have to tweak the Cortana plot somewhat to where Cortana near the end becomes content with her eventual demise while Chief remains in denial, which has the unfortunate side effect of never allowing Cortana the chance to give a proper goodbye

[minor sky]

Hmmm. Idk if I'd want that goodbye gone. Just because that is an all time favorite moment for me

[orchid kettle]

Because I think what really sells the "dark reflection" idea to me would be if the villain doesnt just share some surface level traits with the hero, but essentially is the hero if they had taken a wrong turn

[minor sky]

Right

[orchid kettle]

and the hero, upon witnessing this reflection, is then able to see the danger of the path they're on and alter course

[minor sky]

The Didact represents what Chief could become. A husk of person driven only by war- which is more or less instinctual to them

[orchid kettle]

Well it wouldnt be gone, Im thinking that Cortana just keeps trying to initiate the good bye before the last scene of the game, but Chief would keep insisting that everything is fine and he'll fix things

[minor sky]

Oh

I mean that is kind of already there. At least subtextually. But yeah that works

And is also 100% in character for Chief like we saw with Keyes and Johnson

I refuse to believe Chief didn't go after Keyes just because he needed the info on his implants

(I haven't read The Flood)

And for Johnson there is obviously Chief's "I'm getting you out of here" line

I think the "She said that to me.... about being a machine" line would've worked well as the first sign of Chief not falling down the same path as the Didact

Actually this kind of got me thinking about how you could use the tracks "117" and "Blue Team" as a way of signifying Chief's emotional journey/state. 117 is all heroic, he is fighting tooth and nail to save his friend and stop the Didact. Blue Team on the other hand is mournful, he is lost and unsure of how to grapple with Cortana's death. Still he feels that sense of duty to fight and "Defend Humanity". Then in a hypothetical third piece you'd have it still be a bit somber but more hopeful, taking that heroic energy and turning it into something new, more "human" for lack of a better way of putting it. Chief doesn't fall down the same path as the Didact, being able to grow beyond his loss.

[thorn osprey]

I think uhhhhh

More sangheili please!!

And the Entrenched fracture too 🤤

[twin parcel]

So, I was thinking, a lot of Sci-Fi universes have a pretty prevalent use of Mercenaries and PMCs (Star Wars, Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, Mass Effect trilogy, etc etc) but I've never heard of PMCs or Mercs (Aside from the Banished, which are more like Raiders than anything ) being prevalent in Halo, especially on the Human side. Do y'all think that the Halo universe has a good business for soldiers of fortune? Tell me your thoughts.

[orchid kettle]

We've been told recently that the NCA themselves were largely mercs

In HW2's phoenix logs at least it seems like Let 'Volir and his Sangheili are the ones that are mainly referred to as "Mercenaries", which implies to me that the Banished are the client here

But HW2 also paints the Banished as far smaller than what later media decided to turn them into

Like, its said Let 'Volir's ship granted Atriox aerial power the Banished were lacking, implying they just didn't have a ship beyond the one they were paying Let for

[empty bloom]

They have become extremely common, they just were never mentioned much since you play as a government supersoldier.

[carmine sleet]

Don't forget that in the context of the games, we were never really in a place where we would be encountering human mercs and PMCs

Like, Chief isn't going to run into a private military company while he's running around on a Halo ring

[empty bloom]

The UNSC's blackwater equivelants are likely also more of ONI puppets as well.

[frigid heart]

PMC Spartans would be so cool.

[empty bloom]

I mean, that's basically what Jannissaries are. Complete with the lack of proper augmentations, training, funding, or equipment, because Mercenaries live a hard and crappy life.

Butchering for bounty rarely pays off.

[hardy swan]

if you're outside the UNSC jurisdiction mayhaps

Halo game with Human enemies will never happen probably. Only in the books

[vagrant ocean]

We also have Zef 'Trahl.

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, given how they’re using Janissaries more in the lore, I could see them appearing in game maybe.

[vagrant ocean]

Not to mention many of the Janissaries are teens who were sold by their parents to pay off their debt.

One example is Callie Calder who was augmented at 15 after being abducted by the Venezian Militia.

[empty bloom]

I don't think Janissaries are uniformly augmented teens tbh.

In fact I wager, from why Callie got augged, that she'd likely be the minority.

[vagrant ocean]

I think the number is higher than one would think. It’s an easy way to pay off debt,

[empty bloom]

That's why the age average should be higher for them. Kids are not frequently in debt.

[vagrant ocean]

The kids were taken as collateral to pay off their family’s debt

[empty bloom]

Callie is the only one we know specifically was taken for that purpose IIRC.

[orchid kettle]

Callie sees other kids around her age who have been taken as well.

[vagrant ocean]

She was in a room full of other kids. "You will be trained, and you will be forged into weapons to be wielded by many masters. You will serve until your family’s debt is repaid. Each job you take, each contract you sign, will stipulate a percentage of your profits that will go towards repayment, and what that percentage is will depend upon your conduct within these halls. Successes is expected; transgressions and failures will accrue interest."

[empty bloom]

Okay, so I did not recall correctly.

[vagrant ocean]

It happens

[orchid kettle]

Halopedia is also of the mind that Janissary refers to any third party Spartan but personally I think its a bit of a stretch

Janissary.

The name had come from a group that had emerged from the latter years of humanity’s Middle Ages. The Ottoman Empire was known to have abducted children and—through years of intensive training—forged those slave-soldiers and mercenaries into a powerful military force.

ONI had once done the same and the results had ultimately helped them win the war against the Covenant. “Janissary” seemed an appropriate reminder that history had a habit of repeating itself, and this time it would be ONI on the receiving end.

To me this sounds like its purely talking about the Venetian kids

like the parallel here is specifically the II and III program, not necessarily super soldiers in general

[vagrant ocean]

Same. Janissary seems like a strictly Venezian pursuit.

[tropic forge]

Canon Fodder 158 says it started as a term for Insurrectionist supersoldier groups but then expanded to programs by criminal, corporate, and colonial groups.

The term ‘janissary’ was first used by ONI to refer to illicit super-soldier programs organized by Insurrection-affiliated power brokers, but its use has extended to a variety of human augmentation programs by criminal, corporate, and colonial groups. On Venezia, many of these efforts are funded by cartel leaders creating and hiring out super-soldier mercenaries to a variety of groups in exchange for raw materials and access to stolen technology. As demand grows, more risks are taken.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m sure Optican will have their own special name for their soldiers, it’s bad branding to be associated with Venezians

[orchid kettle]

I feel like this is another case of 343 internally not being able to decide what the lore is

Because Dare's final paragraph there really breaks down if Janissaries are just third party supersoldiers

because supersoldiers or at least attempts to make them have existed before the spartan-II program

Because I read that paragraph as like "ONI committed this sin of fashioning child supersoldiers, and now enemy forces are using knowledge of that against them"

But like, just saying "ONI used supersoldiers, and now other people have supersoldiers too!" is kinda meaningless

I think its also kinda clear that 343 has been workshopping Jannies for a while given that the description for the Conqueror helmet characterizes Venetian Janissaries specifically as "eager for plunder and power"

which imo is a bit of a fib, given that they're coerced children

Oh and you have this from the Anvil Accord chronicle, when Mann is talking about the recovered Janissary powered armor:

“Recovered during an operation on Sqala,” Mann said. “Naval Intelligence were investigating some waylaid prototypes and the operative they sent discovered that they were being put to use by Venezian janissaries and independent contractors.”

Considering that it is powered armor they're talking about, it seems strange to bother drawing a distinction between janissaries of the Venezian persuasion and "independent contractors", with the janissary label only being applied to the former and not the latter

Really in general whenever it comes up in actual material, the writers always pair "Venezian" and "janissary" together, never specifying other types.

Like how does James spot a guy in knockoff MJOLNIR and instantly recognize him as being from Venezia

(especially if you recall how in March of 2560, in the Anvil Accord, Mann said that they still didn't know a ton about janissaries to begin with, yet James has apparently enough experience by 2559 to not only know what a janissary is but also the exact coordinates of the hospital where they were born, apparently)

I also feel like the origin of the term even in the Dare short is kinda silly because like-- why would the criminals and janissaries themselves actually use this name invented by ONI in secret

Wouldnt they have their own naming scheme, anyway

[orchid kettle]

In the Dare short, Adam is apparently getting his "test subjects" or whatever from Venezia

So-- they're quite literally Janissaries from Venezia

Or at least he's getting material to make his own brand of superserum from Venezia

But you could argue that if he's essentially just buying the same drugs the Venetian Janissaries use, there's still a clear connection between the future "corpo Spartans" and Venetian Janissaries anyway

[obsidian thistle]

HS tend to be specific on the janissaries

If they are Venezian

It will say Venezian

No promises this will stick

But its been solid so far

[orchid kettle]

I also kinda take issue with the brief mention of Insurrectionist supersoldier programs being a thing, assuming its referring to a pre-HCW or early-HCW era Insurrection

If only because I assume the reference is supposed to be alluding to the Rumbledrug, but honestly the original Evolutions story doesnt really hint that the drug was created by Innies and if other programs existed, surely Adam would look towards them instead of the drug that just kills the user

If its just referencing the Buccaneer armor from Halo 5 and whoever would have worn it originally-- then that's fine

I dunno, I feel like its worth maintaining a distinction between supersoldiers beyond "UNSC-made" versus "Not UNSC-made"

Because again, it doesnt feel like anybody but the UNSC would actually use the term "Janissary" to refer to augmented human soldiers

surely they'd just say "augmented" or "supersoldier" anyway

Like even the canon fodder understands itd be kinda lame if Executors were lumped in with the rest, so I dont know why we would do the same for the supersoldiers of the criminal underworld and the ones created by mega corporations

basically the difference between the illegal third party Spartans and the assumingly legal ones

Especially when the latter could potentially be considered "on the same side" as the UNSC Spartans

Like say the Spartans come in to help defend a colony from whatever's going on, and they run into a megacorp's defense force like on Meridian

except, hey, there's some augmented security too

And the Spartans would have no reason to be in conflict with these people

which is not the case for venezian janissaries

[minor sky]

Thinking on this some more I am not entirely sure if it'd work when the Didact so firmly sees the Librarian and her efforts as in direct opposition to the Forerunner's claim over the mantle.

also it might make the darth vader comparison feel too close/sj

I think the idea you put forth there is good, but I also think the core of the Chief/Didact comparison is how the Didact is somebody who has lost the people who gave his life more meaning than just the Forerunner military leader. And so the idea is maybe that the Didact is what Cortana would fear Chief ends up as when she is gone. Not a man, but a machine. Reduced to fighting a battle out of instinct, with no real victory to hold. At least thats the poorly articulated explaination in my mind

[hollow sentinel]

this is random but has it ever been stated how many pushups or whatever chief or other spartans can do

or benching or something

[empty bloom]

No.

And frankly, good that they don't.

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah, it’d be a pointless factoid even by HS standards,

[carmine sleet]

It would only really be relevant info if we had a moment in a light hearted DLC focused on giving the cast of characters a send-off where we get to beat one person's record via a series of QTEs (I know, the Citadel DLC in ME3 had you doing pull ups and not push ups but still)

[vagrant ocean]

I loved ME3

[hardy swan]

probably a thousand

[covert tide]

Spartans of Discord, I need your help with a question
How does the "Occipital Capillary Reversal" work for the Spartan 2's?

From what i understand the surgeon would remove a section of the skull above the left occipital lobe and "Rearrange the capillaries and reverse the direction of blood flow in each capillary to boost the blood flow beneath the rods and cones of the subject's retina"

How does that work do they move the blood vessels around like you would pipes
and if so how is the left occipital lobe not starved of oxygen due to the procedure?
could someone help me out here?

[finite quail]

Bring spartan Jerome back drops mic

[empty bloom]

That's not a mic breaking line.

[orchid kettle]

bring back spartan mike drops jerome

[frigid heart]

Spartan Mike is the best

[frigid heart]

What am I??? A doctor???

[covert tide]

just figured someone may have answers

[carmine sleet]

Only reason I didn't respond to that question was because I don't know enough about how the human eye works to speculate

[orchid kettle]

I think you just have to accept some level of hand-wavium when it comes to stuff like this

[carmine sleet]

Aye

Like the whole thing about IVs being able to breathe for a limited time in methane or whatever it was

[frigid heart]

Upon further study and my graduation from medical school, the occipital capillary reversal removes a “wall” of blood cells near the back of the eye, causing more light to reach the light sensing cells. This procedure is similar to birds evolution, whereas avians possess a special blood containing organ within the eye.

[hardy swan]

how does one breathe in Methane unless they have some kind of cracy sci fi lungs

[frigid heart]

Magic
I wasted my smarts for today on brain eye surgery

[hardy swan]

they can do magical biological surgery

but full cloning can't be done just yet

[covert tide]

spartan 4's have a sort of STONEWALL pulmonary surfactant, that allows their modified lungs to absorb more oxygen then a normal human would
we only adsorb 4-8% of all the oxygen we breathe, spartan 4's could absorb much more
it could also hold excess oxygen, which could explain why they can breath methane for an hour or survive in the vacuum of space for up to 5 minutes

[vagrant ocean]

Dammit Jim I’m an autistic nerd, not a doctor!

@covert tide It’s a Star Trek reference

Kids these days

[covert tide]

how was i supposed to know
i've only watched Star Trek the next generation and Deep space 9

[vagrant ocean]

Damn. Bones says “Dammit Jim I’m a doctor not a <insert thing that isn’t a doctor>”

[covert tide]

Supposed to be some sort of star trek reference
I've only watched next generation and deep space 9 so i didn't know what the reference was

speaking of doctors
do y'all think its time for someone in halo lore to launch The Spartan V program?

[vagrant ocean]

Eh. I don’t see a need for it really. Maybe if they did some genetic engineering using the DNA of successfully augmented IIs (who are basically genetically perfect) to breed elite humans, and THEN augment them, that could be a V program

But the IVs is cheaper and less resource intensive.

[strange pumice]

I'm not sure who will launch it
ONI? Or someone else?

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe ONI after they discover and use more Ancestor tech? Maybe use HELLCAT as a new baseline armor system?

[strange pumice]

I don't like those "cheaper"
Spartan 4 is adult volunteers

[strange pumice]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vagrant ocean]

I’m just speaking from a logistical standpoint. It is cheaper than the IIs and IIIs.

[orchid kettle]

There's not really a need for anything beyond the Spartan-IV program

[vagrant ocean]

Just upgrade the armor.

[orchid kettle]

You could argue that the augs could be better but even Zane is still considered a IV

even if she's like a proto IV or whatever

[vagrant ocean]

She’s a proto IV but her augments give her better strength than a regular IV, pair that with MJÖLNIR she’s basically a II in terms of capabilities.

[covert tide]

well I always envisioned the spartan v's as being spartans trained to take down rogue Spartans like ilsa zane
essentially if spartan 2's were Greek titans, 3's were gods, and spartan 4's were demi-gods, then spartan v's would be like kratos or godslayers in general
there would need to be genetic marker requirements like with the spartan 2's or 3's
the main problem is that spartan 4's can't be indoctrinated like the other 2 generations, so they pose a risk of defecting to the enemy side, ilsa zane is the perfect example

[covert tide]

the purpose of Spartan v's would be to take down rogue spartans like ilsa zane

[vagrant ocean]

IVs can be trained to be headhunters. That’s what Locke was, asset retrieval.

[orchid kettle]

Tbh the solution to the traitor IV thing kinda just feels like you should place a bomb in their neck or something

Like even Soren, a II, went rogue

[vagrant ocean]

Or maybe allow the armor’s failsafes to be activated remotely.

[vagrant ocean]

Due to his disfigurement and not accepting his fate. He was a lost cause anyway. Such a child isn’t Spartan material.

[orchid kettle]

Well on some level you'd assume every IV defector has a reason that makes sense to them.

The writers just don't really care in most cases though and just wants them to be evil more often than not

[strange pumice]

But Soren still human
I can't accept that
Better to be rogue than MIA or KIA

[vagrant ocean]

Most of them have Innie sympathies or are just guns for hire. Soren literally watched his stepfather die and refused to get help. He lacks empathy.

He’d be better as an ONI operative or CINCONI than a Spartan.

[orchid kettle]

His stepdad didn't die.

[strange pumice]

It's like two sides of one coin

[vagrant ocean]

He did. He died of the same illness his mom died from.

“He then sat down by his stepfather and remained with him there until he finally was dead two days later.”

[orchid kettle]

He didn't. Soren stabbed him in the throat with a knife. Or tried to. Then his dad got up, biofoamed himself, and Soren ran away and never saw him again

Soren's whole thing too during his nightmare is that he's fighting the realization that his stepdad was just another person trying to do their best in a bad situation, and Soren went and ruined his own life for effectively no reason

[vagrant ocean]

This is directly from the wiki, he watched his stepdad die.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, because he thought his stepdad was a monster

He was probably pissed that his stepdad allowed his mother to die, but the moment he was sick, he had the gall to beg the son of the woman he killed for help

[vagrant ocean]

To keep from going to prison which would starve them. Soren wasn’t the only person who lost someone when his mom died.

[orchid kettle]

Weirdly forgiving of the adult man who killed his wife and kept her body locked in his house versus the six year old child

[vagrant ocean]

A man who was an emotional wreck which is why he kept her body.

[orchid kettle]

Sure.

and so is Soren.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m literally pulling from his article. I’m not just yanking this out of my stinker.

[orchid kettle]

Okay, I'm referencing the story itself lol

There's also no suggestion that Soren and his mom would starve if the stepdad got arrested

[vagrant ocean]

He was operating an illegal farm.

“She had not been taken into town to see a doctor, however, because Soren's stepfather had been too worried about going to jail for his illegal farm.[7] The law required that symptoms of the disease be reported to the planetary officials, after all.[1]”

[orchid kettle]

Okay

why does that mean the mother and child drop dead the second he's gone

Im not saying their lives would have been easy or great

But assuming they're straight up dead and the stepdad was just looking out for all of them instead of just himself is just not something that's supported by the text

[orchid kettle]

Of course, the fact that the stepdad cant even take his family to a doctor kinda already means they were never going to have a great life

[vagrant ocean]

I will concede that the only II who had a worse life than Soren prior to the program is Serin, his life was awful.

And Halsey gave him a choice.

A real choice.

[orchid kettle]

As much as a choice a six year old and then 14 year old can really have, sure.

[vagrant ocean]

He could’ve said no to ASTER.

[orchid kettle]

Sure, but from his perspective, he has nowhere to go back to.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s not like they’d send him back. He’s remarkably intelligent so Naval Intelligence would find a use for him. Hell, he’d have found a better fit had he not defected.

Despite being a wreck neurologically, Fhajad managed to publish a paper 15 years later which helped humanity win Sigma Octanus IV

Honestly I think not putting all the unrehabilitated in one spot and keeping it classified outside the other Spartans and Section Three is stupid. It reduces the risk of defection and they can help each other

[orchid kettle]

well in the current canon Soren shoulda just waited a bit longer and Halsey woulda fixed him right up

they brought Dutch's wife back, they un-PTSD'd Lucy, they unkilled James

I half expect Musa to come back in the next book in full MJOLNIR and a new pair of legs

[slow sail]

I don't know if this is the channel or if this can even be answered but does anyone know in lore what civilian life was like before and during the fall of Reach?

[thorn osprey]

Is it safe to assume that most of the Banished fleet was at Earth in Empty Throne?

[frigid heart]

Wait what? The banished are on earth?

Am I stupid???

[dusk jetty]

||They tried to glass it to avenge doisac, yeah||

[stoic hamlet]

From the book, yes, the entire banished fleet went to earth (those ships that weren’t already at Zeta).

[vagrant ocean]

Musa would need serious rehabilitation to learn how to walk again. He’s been wheelchair bound for nearly 40 years.

[frigid heart]

It happened to Joe Swanson, it can happen to Musa. All he needs is a double leg transplant

[empty bloom]

Wonder fi that means IV blood is a much brighter red than human blood.

After all, they don't even have a normal human spleen anymore. That's directly replaced with a not-spleen... Thing.

[orchid kettle]

a zpleen

[vagrant ocean]

The spleem, to avoid the trademark on spleen

[minor sky]

The SplIVeen

[deep citrus]

Hey guys, bit of a nerd question, but why did neither the covenant nor the UNSC seem to have many of the weapons you'd assume they would have-mostly in the artillery department, I can understand it in games, but

Singular missile bombardments could've likely disabled, or destroyed covenant invasions lol

Second question-why don't they put MAC guns on the ground ever

[frigid heart]

We don’t see a lot of artillery, but I would assume the UNSC has lots of smart cruise missiles, but most of their munitions aren’t enough to kill covenant armor. Plus, the covenant doesn’t need much planetary based artillery, because they bombard from orbit.
And for the MAC question, it’s much better to have them in orbit, but some special ones are on the ground, like in the pillar of autumn mission from reach.

[deep citrus]

Yeah it's just the lack of even mentions of them when they're. Clearly very effective weapons

The covenant evacuate before they glass right?

If so, why not just go full nuclear to wipe out as much of the enemy as you can before they can evacuate. Sure, it's suicide, and desperation level strategies, but where humanity was at the start of the series you'd think you'd see strats like that

[minor sky]

You guys think the UNSC Eternity is gonna show up soon-ish?

With Infinity probably gone for good, I think the UNSC will fast track Eternity's completion as the Banished grow more and more stronger

[gusty star]

At this rate I don’t think we’re ever gonna see the Eternity

Eternally Banished from relevant lore

[sour raven]

We still dont know the fate of the infinity

[hardy swan]

UNSC Eternity, UNSC Perpetuity, UNSC Boundless

[covert tide]

that would be interesting

[hardy swan]

Yeah I am wondering why they don't have huge railgun vehicles or stationary modules

[unique rune]

They do…?

That’s what the Onager guns found in Reach and 4 literally are

That’s what the main cannon on the Mammoth is

The Cobra’s main guns and Gauss turrets used on Warthogs and other stationary mounts are all the same basic tech as MACs

and if you’re going to make a warship-grade MAC you may as well also build it as part of a warship so it isn’t just stuck in one place

[minor sky]

Last we heard, Stacker was still serving onboard the Infinity, yeah?

[carmine sleet]

Considering parts meant for Eternity were used to repair the Infinity before Halo 5, I doubt it. I doubt the crew who were building her would have made much progress while the Created threat was ongoing

[obsidian thistle]

In my opinion, Eternity may just turn into a very expensive station that can occasionally move around like Hopeful.

https://www.halopedia.org/UNSC_Hopeful

Tis the only way I can imagine it becoming used

[hardy swan]

doesn't it make more sense that resources are poured into shipbuilding after Cortanas defeat considering the threat of the Banished and Innies?

[thorn spindle]

The name eternity is a pretty big meh

They need cooler name ideas

Even infinity is meh

Really

Longer names r ok too doesnt need to be 1 word

Infinity and eternity though gosh are those dull names

[hardy swan]

UNSC Attack on Titan

[vagrant ocean]

No, he was last seen in 2559 on KC-59

Helping Blue Team test GEN3

He was also wearing the ORCUS exoskeleton

[minor sky]

Hard to top "Shadow Of Intent"

[thorn spindle]

agree

maybe some names that have the ITY since its what they want for infinity class names

serenity of conviction or something

[hardy swan]

human ships used to be called something like Pillar of Autumn

[unique rune]

UNSC ship names have always been a mixed bag of boring and normal, comedic, or “epic”

I think Infinity is fine

[empty bloom]

THey also used to be called boring things like "Gettysberg". Let's not kid ourselves into thinking they were all slammers in the Bungie days, please.

[orchid kettle]

I do feel like fan ship names try a bit too hard to sound epic

to the point that it kinda wraps around to sounding more like a Covenant ship than a UNSC one

[thorn spindle]

cant i just say how boring infinity and eternity r for sci fi ships

others boring too. others good. ok good talk

[orchid kettle]

no

now the endless

that's a good name

[hardy swan]

Morpheus

[thorn spindle]

infinity, eternity and endless next names will be forever, deathless, invincible, immortal etc

[vagrant ocean]

Hence why I keep it simple.

[hardy swan]

Though it was all cool with covenant names

[thorn spindle]

how about Dull Thud just lean into the dumbness

[hardy swan]

Long Night of Solace and Sublime Transadence literally fire names

GIF of pen writing on fire

[thorn spindle]

hmm

[vagrant ocean]

Nothing will top the ship that colonized Harvest.

The UNSC Skidbladnir

[thorn spindle]

yea after a while the unsc decides to see the humor in things. and to get enlistment up. join and serve on the skidi today

i feel like halo itself will expire before infinity class ships are ever outclassed

[hardy swan]

UNSC Oiia Oiia

[vagrant ocean]

Wait until they use Ancestor tech

[thorn spindle]

o yea ur right there is that found ship. theres a chance for a cooler name nice

[hardy swan]

Humanity will reconquer the Orion arm trust

[vagrant ocean]

It’s basically a drifting hulk atm, but maybe we find some working ones or ones with usable tech to graft onto existing classes.

Or we find a way to crudely imitate the weapon systems.

[hardy swan]

it's "intact" according to Halopedia

[vagrant ocean]

Its engines are dead, it’s a hulk, no different than finding an abandoned vessel at sea.

[hardy swan]

they alreaydy reversed engineered the suits

the weapon systems should be next

AH weapons rivalled the forerunners 😭

[vagrant ocean]

But do we have the power plants to run them?

[versed helm]

role invincible title card after saying invincible

[hardy swan]

Bro Humans already have nuclear fusion in 26th century

[vagrant ocean]

You mean fusion, we’ve had fission reactors since the 30s.

[hardy swan]

Ya

[vagrant ocean]

And even then, you’re assuming they can power such arcane technology.

Without needing immense amounts of energy.

[hardy swan]

They already power forerunner engines on the Infinity dude

It’s not like it’s far off

[vagrant ocean]

The UNSC also is stretched thin. Maybe when they rebuild, again.

[minor sky]

Calling a ship "invincible" is just tempting fate

It'd be like Dr.Halsey's parents giving her the middle name of "Will Never Be A War Crimimal Who Abducts Children"

[unique rune]

sure didn't stop the Royal Navy from doing it seven times

[obtuse pier]

I come to find out that the flood exists outside of the milky way too

Also, how come the flood was able to push the forerunners to the brink

Such that they built the halo array

But when faced with humanity that isn’t even an ambers worth of the former fire it was

And the covenant

How did the flood not take over the milky way?

[stoic hamlet]

Because the Flood had been weakened after the firing of the Array.

No one in the present day is dealing with “good Flood”.

[obtuse pier]

can we expand on this?

I am curious

[stoic hamlet]

“Good flood” as in “the really apocalyptic flood”.

[obtuse pier]

I am aware the flood becomes more powerful as it assimilates more biomass

But its also exponential growth

Plus, it didn’t take long for the flood to very quickly get out of hand when ancient humanity stumbled upon it

Also I am slightly confused

If the flood can infect using airborne spores

Why do the little infection forms exist?

[unique rune]

Pod infectors are presumably more direct and infect things more quickly than waiting for the spores to do the job

[obtuse pier]

I see

And it does seem reasonable if you are trying to infect something that wears a mask

[minor sky]

You know, I don't think there is a single arguement in this community I find more grading than the discourse surrounding Forerunners being human or not

Maybe it's not the specific arguement but instead how it manages to act as a microcosm for the most pointlessly heated "debates" in the community

[unique rune]

the part about it that always tires me out is that it's pretty much always just thinly veiled "Bungie good 343 bad" arguing

[frigid heart]

Spores usually happen in blightland areas, where the flood has taken over all living things in the biome, and then uses them to create airborne infection spores

[vagrant ocean]

The discourse is pointless because clearly Bungie didn’t do it.

[minor sky]

I mean in all fairness, that was the intent

[minor sky]

Of course

I saw a video pop up in my feed today about why "Halo 4 is bad actually and killed the series", except the word it used was far ugly than that

And despite this sounding like something from 10 years ago it in fact came out in 2025

[empty bloom]

Is it the one with a really ugly statement in red text by one "Master Cheeks"?

Yeah don't give that loser the watches

[minor sky]

Yes

[empty bloom]

Anyone who puts anything as disgusting as that in their thumbnails is someone who should have their video making rights removed.

[minor sky]

I didn't give it much time

I think anyone who uses that word in relation to a piece of media 9/10 times needs to grow the hell up

[minor sky]

Has this dude been around for a while?

[empty bloom]

I tend to recall bad actors in Halo's youtube scene pretty easily.

So... Last year or two.

[minor sky]

I see

This fanbase is at least a decent portion of why I don't think this series will ever rebound back to where it was.

I know that sounds snobbish, but the fans are both Halo's lifeline and I am so glad people still care about this series and also need to stop getting into stupid arguments that go nowhere.

Granted I wouldn't give them all the blame for stuff that falls on the hands of the people actually running this series and Xbox as a whole

I myself am guilty of being a sterotypical "Halo fan who really seems to not like Halo" at times. (2022 was a bad year to be a Halo fan)

[vagrant ocean]

And they ditched it during Halo 3 development.

[minor sky]

Thats debatable

The terminals were written by a separate team

[vagrant ocean]

Still approved to be included.

[minor sky]

Also Joseph Staten was busy working on Contact Harvest so he probably wasn't able to give input

[orchid kettle]

The best I can figure about what was going on in Halo 3 is that Bungie was having a really hard time trying to decide how Forerunners were human

[vagrant ocean]

Besides, I never EVER took 343’s statement in H3 literally, only in a symbolic sense.

[orchid kettle]

and according to Paul, one conclusion at least one terminal writer came to is that some ancient humans just got snatched up by Precursors and given the keys to the galaxy, more or less

[minor sky]

Important to remember that Halo 3 didn't really have a proper writer

[vagrant ocean]

And had to wrangle Marty.

[orchid kettle]

and that's how you get stuff like the Librarian feeling a deep spiritual connection to Earth despite never setting foot there before, or claiming that the inhabitants hold the answer to the Forerunners' own mysteries

[vagrant ocean]

Do yall think humans and Forerunners can interbreed?

[orchid kettle]

The Librarian's word for Earth specifically gets translated as "Eden"

[minor sky]

Iirc Joseph Staten and Marcus Lehto had a disagreement of some sort and Staten decided to step back from 3 after 2's self-inflicted mess of a development

[orchid kettle]

and the Garden of Eden was of course the place Adam and Eve lived before they were cast out

of course you can figure that it just says "Eden" because the Librarian is just calling the world pretty

but it feels a lot deeper than that imo

[minor sky]

Is that still applicable to canon or does something go against that?

[vagrant ocean]

That’s what my 10 year old brain thought.

[orchid kettle]

well in today canon Humans and Forerunners are still related by virtue of both being created by the Precursors

so maaaaaybe?

[minor sky]

Right

[orchid kettle]

Issue is, Forerunners supposedly arrived on the scene like 15 million years ago or something

[vagrant ocean]

It can be extended to the Ancestors, which until further investigation could’ve appeared to be a Forerunner subculture/subspecies.

[orchid kettle]

and by then, they wouldn't really be human anyway

[vagrant ocean]

Well, the Ecumene.

[orchid kettle]

like, we split off from chimps 6-9 million years ago, for reference

by all rights we shouldn't be anymore related to Forerunners than basically any primate

[minor sky]

I do prefer the idea of Humans and Forerunners beginning as the same species before veering off

[vagrant ocean]

The Precursors could shape the evolutionary line of a species, so it could be they tested the modern human form

[minor sky]

Rather than just loose relation by nature of their creation

[vagrant ocean]

Well we apparently share the same stock,

[orchid kettle]

Yeah but the Gravemind/Primordial also later claims in Epitaph that they made all life in the galaxy and that's why they feel entitled to in turn end it

so I don't really get how that's really supposed to make us feel especially connected to Forerunners

are we not all God's children

[orchid kettle]

I think what I like best is like a fusion of everybody's different explanations

Forerunners were a group of humans who get spirited away and handed the keys to the galaxy, but they have no knowledge of where they came from

[minor sky]

I mean if we began as one and the same as the forerunners then we would have something more than Humans and Elites

[minor sky]

Right

[orchid kettle]

they make a grand civilization, some fatal flaw of theirs messes it up and allows the Flood to overwhelm them, but in the chaos they find Earth, humanity, and the answers they've been looking for

Bornstellar activates the rings like normal, and the surviving Forerunners share his fate of settling on a primitive world after shedding all remnants of their advanced technology

except this primitive world is Earth and the forerunners just get it on with early humans

and they fuse back into the same race, essentially

because otherwise, Guilty Spark cant really call Chief a Forerunner

[vagrant ocean]

Not all species were catalogued, and not every species reintroduced survived the test of time.

[orchid kettle]

because a Forerunner is essentially just a certain human subgroup

its like if somebody just accused you of being Italian when you're not

[minor sky]

I was speaking more in a broader sense, but yeah

[vagrant ocean]

Fermi paradox and what all.

[minor sky]

Timey wimey wibbily wobbly

[orchid kettle]

I feel like the unnamed terminal writer only really came up with the "two groups" explanation because they realized we have fossil evidence of humanity's evolution on Earth

and you can't just say "oh yeah we're totally aliens who just settled here 100,000 years ago" or whatever

[vagrant ocean]

It’s explained in the lore that humans and Forerunners evolved from a base stock.

And convergent evolution handles the rest.

[orchid kettle]

apparently an alternate explanation in the cut Halo 2 ending was that Forerunners just shaped existing Earth life to look like them

though I kinda feel like that's still a bit of a copout

like sure in CH, a luminary shows "forerunner creations"

but then Mendicant Bias says the "Reclaimers" are his makers

[vagrant ocean]

We see it all the time.

[vagrant ocean]

Not a reliable narrator,

[minor sky]

I haven't finished the Forerunner Trilogy just yet so just to be clear this is an alternate take on how those events go down and not a recontextualizing, yeah?

[vagrant ocean]

Probably

[orchid kettle]

That's really not the intention of the scene.

Like I always say this, but MB isn't real, he says purely what the author, Joseph Staten, wants him to say

And its just not really the intention in the scene that he's flatout incorrect

[minor sky]

Explaining the Halo Universe feels like explaining how Star Trek's universe works. Too many different people working on it across decades creating a ton of conflicting views of how things function

(This is why I like Babylon 5.)

[orchid kettle]

At least in the case of CH I think its a lot easier to discern because you have one guy's interpretation of the Haloverse which he claims he wrote in total isolation for anybody else at Bungie

Of course in some areas Staten is clearly confused about things, getting Eridanus and Epsilon Eridani mixed up so bad that he thinks they're the same system

Which creates this strange effect where he's aware that the Insurrection exists because colonists don't like the UEG, but somehow, the worse of the fighting is taking place in the heart of UEG power

that stuff is all messed up basically because of that mix up

[empty bloom]

I feel like thematically, Halo's story only really makes sense if the Forerunners aren't human at this point, and any attempt at mixing the pasts is... A bad idea.

[orchid kettle]

but I think you can tell that its Staten intention that Truth knows a truth that would be devastating for the Covenant or at least the San Shyuum's position of power within it

[minor sky]

Like you can have one series depict the universe as a utopian setting where the struggles of our time have been overcome, or you can say "actually Star Fleet has corruption and a secert organization exists dedicated to doing all their dirty deeds."

[vagrant ocean]

I also believe that forerunners being human is lazy.

[orchid kettle]

I think Forerunners are Humans is pretty fine if combined with "the Forerunners sucked and we need to grow past them, not aspire to be them"

[empty bloom]

Hot take, I'm tired of cynicism in my fiction being obnoxious a'la Star Trek's section whatever.

[orchid kettle]

I never really liked the Halo 4 angle of the Forerunners' suckitude being implied to be in part because they just weren't the chosen rulers of the galaxy like we were

[empty bloom]

And I say that as an ardent DS9 fan

[empty bloom]

If I were to write it, I'd have made it actually a tossup-it was a test of the Forerunners and humanity when humanity was offered unto the anvil of the mantle.

[minor sky]

Granted that comes with the detail of that movie sucking

[empty bloom]

A conversation between Precursors.

[minor sky]

Thats sort of how I picture it

[empty bloom]

A test that humanity would've faltered, but not failed, and the Forerunners failed by going for.

[orchid kettle]

im also personally a big believer in stories ultimately being commentary on the human condition or heart or what have you, and I think to that end, I don't vibe with the 4 angle of "The Forerunners suck because they're not US, they don't got that human spirit in them"

[minor sky]

They took two groups of lab rats and put them in different scenarios to see what would happen basically.

[orchid kettle]

which feels really silly in the context of a universe with other thinking, feeling species'

[empty bloom]

Basically how I see it.

[minor sky]

Yeah thats the explaination in my mind. Basically a way of having your cake and eat it

[vagrant ocean]

Basically artificial convergent evolution

[empty bloom]

The forerunners had drive and mind, humanity had heart and comraderie.

Forerunners were not offered it to test their ego; Humanity was offered it to test their strength. As a test of character, one must reject the mantle, and not strive to claim it if it is not offered.

A civilizational kobiashi maru that the Precursors knew they had already failed by being in a position to offer.

[vagrant ocean]

I wonder how an alliance between the Ecumene and the Ancestors would work

[orchid kettle]

The current idea of the Endless hating humans for what the Forerunners did to them is also a pretty weak motivation

[minor sky]

Yeah thats lame

[empty bloom]

I've told you my pet theory on the Endless, right?

Or did I only ever tell Et?

[minor sky]

But isn't that only speculation, right?

[orchid kettle]

and I feel like thats kinda the issue of inventing this idea of a heavily flawed society and then giving the heroes no real continuity with it

[empty bloom]

My theory was that the Endless are functionally related closely to the precursors.

But not directly tied, more another castoff.

Related to the nanite host from Outcasts, the one used to fire the... God hand weapon I forgot the name of.

[vagrant ocean]

Divine Hand

[orchid kettle]

Im still really into the idea that they're a purely memetic people

[empty bloom]

Which in turn is tied to my theory that Precursors are actually a-Yeah, the memetic precursor theory

[minor sky]

I feel like they set themselves up for disapointment when they said "The Endless are worse than The Flood"

[empty bloom]

In my mind, precursors themselves are memetic, not the Endless, but they imprinted onto the Endless.

[orchid kettle]

if only because I always thought the idea of Bornstellar being turned into a spare Didact and everybody treating him as if he just was the Didact was more interesting than anything else in the trilogy

because like you have this angle of past generations forcing themselves upon the new, stomping out any chance of progress in order to keep their own outdated values going

[empty bloom]

It's a really good concept.

[orchid kettle]

and that feeeeels significant if we continue down the "Forerunners suck, don't try and be them" road

[empty bloom]

Like, I have my own issues with the forerunner trilogy but that whole idea was really good.

[minor sky]

Not finished with the trilogy yet, but I am really enjoying it so far

[empty bloom]

A whole running theme through Halo's bones since the early days is the sins of the father type arrangements

Or, well, usually, mother, at this point.

[orchid kettle]

You could argue there's a nugget of that in the final guilty spark fight where he begs Chief to think of his forefathers and not to destroy their legacy or whatever

of course from Chief's perspective, thats not what any of this is about but that's neither here nor there

[empty bloom]

Chief just being profoundly confused until he hears Halo 4's audiologs.

[minor sky]

I still think those should've been more directly placed into the game

Have the player and Chief directly learn that information

Kind of like Infinite's "dust and echoes" segments

Though in my mind you could take that idea to the extreme and have Chief walk in the Didact's footsteps so to speak

[empty bloom]

Y'know what

Screw it, add Cortana 'gun down' segments to explain her survival

Like those levels from Assassin's Creed Revelations

[orchid kettle]

speaking of which, I still kinda think it was a missed opportunity on both Bungie and 343's part to not recontextualize humanity being unaware of their origins as something that was 100% intended by Bornstellar

That like Bornstellar saw the writing on the wall and decided the Forerunners were better left forgotten

[minor sky]

I mentioned this before, but you'd take the end of Reclaimer and turn it into a mission. Chief and some Spartans are sent to go after the Didact and venture into a forerunner structure. Chief gets separated from the others and as he explores the structure, flashes of the Didact's memories play out.