lore-and-universe

[unique rune]

John refusing to elaborate when Kelly asks him what working with Cortana was like haunts me to this day

[empty bloom]

A lot of the social mechanics involved are similar to the development of social cliques. I don't know why I hate (peer), per say; Social group says he's weird, and maybe he does act a bit odd, maybe a bit defensive, or has someone willing to defend him who is not part of my social clique, so that is justification enough to join in.

[orchid kettle]

I could point to lines I think are bad but that would be up to taste I think. I think the only objective metric is like, information conveyed.

[empty bloom]

On that metric I'd say 5's script is like... A C+? Maybe a B-?

If I'm being generous?

[unique rune]

I feel like I need to revisit 5 to really reevaluate how I feel about its campaign but they won't port it to PC

[empty bloom]

I think part of my opinion is likely colored by the strange prevalence of arguments I've had where people bring up Act Man or some other Youtuber's video as evidence for why they think it's bad.

The fact it happened as often as it did is... Kind of amusing.

[orchid kettle]

I remember I had to defend ODST's opening, saying that even if you groan at the obvious Joss Whedon-inspired dialogue, it is very effective at how much information about the characters and plot is being conveyed to you in a very short amount of time.

[orchid kettle]

I think more than anything Id take issue with what 5 keeps to a cutscene versus what it leaves to in-game, mid-mission dialogue, which has a higher chance of going unnoticed because the player is playing the game

Like Vale basically only exists in mid-mission dialogue

[empty bloom]

Which is a criticism I absolutely share.

It's one of the most glaring flaws.

[orchid kettle]

She doesn't get many lines in the actual cinematics

[empty bloom]

God, I think Linda might have more raw dialogue.

[orchid kettle]

oh right, blue team

i am the number 1 blue team hater so any criticisms I have of their portion is basically just what I've always said about Spartan-II teams

[ionic tiger]

Heh, I didn’t hate Halo 5 based on Act Man’s video. I used Haruspis’ articles 😎

Kidding aside, I played Halo 5 all the way through on Legendary myself and just didn’t vibe with it. To be fair, I was exposed to spoilers, but had hopes they weren’t fully in context. Not so.

That said, there are a few things I’d go to bat for with 5. The stuff with Sanghelios was good and I actually like Fireteam Osiris. But that probably makes me more of an outlier of an outlier.

[empty bloom]

I just hope we get an Osiris operation someday.

I want. Technician GEN2.

[ionic tiger]

I would be more than happy to see them or their individual characters come back. Even done some fanficy renders of Locke on Zeta.

[hardy swan]

and somehow still a popular dish on Sansar

[hardy swan]

nah

I muuch rather have majestic back

I wanna see Naiya Ray in the games

considering Buck already has his own team and got married and Vale is doing solo missions on Sanghelios last I checked

And Locke is probably dead

[ionic tiger]

I’ll take both. Plenty of room for them.

[stoic hamlet]

Likely not dead, if Empty Throne’s w epilogue is to be believed. He’s active in 2560… assuming the person at the end of the book was him.

[gusty star]

What person?

[hardy swan]

Why would a Brute let a Spartan live after stripping him of the Mjolnir

Unless he let him go on purpose

There was a dialogue wasn’t it

[stoic hamlet]

A nameless agent Al-Cygni communicates with, heavily implied to have personal experience with Genesis, the planet from Halo 5.

No ONI personnel had access to that site, so while the agent (Codename FIXER) is unnamed (very explicitly only called “agent”,) the insinuation seems pretty clear.

[empty bloom]

I should actually finish reading empty throne.

[empty bloom]

Sport.

After all, Horvath.

[ionic tiger]

There is dialogue of Tovarus calling Hyperius (the one with what looks like Locke’s armor) a coward who deserves to die should you kill Hyperius first.

Only other person I can think mentioning Locke dying was Glibnub, but he also says those two Brutes beat up Chief too. So…not reliable.

[empty bloom]

Whaaaat? Decepticon, you're telling me characters can lie?

[hardy swan]

Chief did get beaten up by Atriox

[ionic tiger]

Two Brutes (ie Hyperius and Tovarus)

[orchid kettle]

Personally I feel like Locke's potential is mainly in exploring the backstory of how an amoral hitman turns into a boy scout

and therefore I do not require him to be alive in 2560

though after empty throne, I don't know if 343/HS is really willing to actually have their hero characters do anything morally dubious on screen

||Considering how every character towards the end independently come to the consensus that it's wrong to sacrifice one life to secure Cortana's power for humanity, which I feel like is NOT something the UNSC of the Nylund books would even bat an eyelash at||

[hardy swan]

does it have anyhting to do with Osman

[orchid kettle]

Probably more so just the general want of 343/HS to have their UNSC characters specifically be squeaky clean while ONI are the morally gray ones

[rocky vector]

|| Saren Osman doesn't really seem to gaf really. The only one who really cares about the girl is James honestly. Everyone else is just kinda like, "Don't like it but it is what it is". That's how I read it as. Still don't understand why Grey Team were there either. Their just there which doesn't make sense after Envoy but maybe they'll explore it in another book or something. ||

[carmine sleet]

We're getting more Jega!! https://www.halowaypoint.com/news/canon-fodder-anthology-assemble

[dusk jetty]

Better not be killed

||also Lucas browning is alive||

[carmine sleet]

Indeed

[vagrant ocean]

I wish they’d explain what JAVELIN is.

[obsidian thistle]

I like the fact we are getting Waypoint Chronicle collections.

[versed helm]

Just found out 343 Industries is releasing a book based on the events after infinite, can someone tell me if it's true?

343 will always be 343

[carmine sleet]

Aye, that's cool too. Definitely will be picking that up at some point

[vagrant ocean]

Halo Studios is making a book set during the immediate aftermath of Infinite, something Bungie did 20 years prior yet everyone accepts.

[versed helm]

10% of their players read the books, now we'll have another skip in Halo 7, things well never get to see

[carmine sleet]

Read the Waypoint article I just posted

[versed helm]

Yeah but bungie did follow the story game to game

[orchid kettle]

They insist its a stopgap between games and not Infinite 2 in book form

[versed helm]

These 343 guys haven't done that

Major skips halo to halo

[carmine sleet]

Halo First Strike bridges the gap between CE and 2

[vagrant ocean]

Did they? Because in what way is Halo 2 the same story as CE?

[vagrant ocean]

Who is this 343 you speak of? To my knowledge they don’t exist.

[orchid kettle]

The encyclopedia already stated that Atriox returned to Zeta Halo after Infinite, but there's no hint of that in Edge of Dawn's synopsis

[carmine sleet]

Also the story for the games has been made up since day one. Bungie weren't following a preestablished storyline told elsewhere when they made the original trilogy

[versed helm]

I'm just sad they're gonna keep doing the same thing. Maybe you're right, but bungies original trilogy seemed more connected than reclaimer trilogy.

I'm calling them 343 because they haven't proven they aren't 343 anymore.

[vagrant ocean]

Bungie’s felt more connected because it takes place over 5 months.

[orchid kettle]

I mean he's correct that we've largely focused on the same villains in the Bungie games. Covenant, Flood, a dash of Guilty Spark.

[carmine sleet]

Also just because we have a book set after Infinite, that doesn't mean Halo 7 or whatever it's called will be a soft reset

[vagrant ocean]

Wow, deadnaming.

[versed helm]

Once they release a new game I'll stop calling them that, or not.

[vagrant ocean]

Exactly

[orchid kettle]

But defeating Jega doesn't mean Chief has beaten the Banished, Atriox's fall will still probably be in game form

[versed helm]

Damn I didn't know these servers were so alive, I never use discord.
And im also surprised how respectful you're being guys.

Cheers.

Usually I see a lot of toxicity.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m stoned, everything to me is a vibe atm.

[orchid kettle]

thanks (we will be banned if we curse)

[vagrant ocean]

The subreddit is crazy.

[versed helm]

Oh that's why yall being nice

You're forced

Lols

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, I don’t feel like being a D unprovoked.

All I know is that I want more info on ORION IIC and JAVELIN.

[versed helm]

Anyways im just gonna wait and see what happens but expectations set low. I don't want to get disappointed. I'd rather get excited once they show us what's being cooked even though we all know.

I'm gonna love CE with nowadays graphics

And mechanics

[unborn patrol]

gotta be clamped down hard. not free of it here either but its managed at least

[unique rune]

I mean in fairness the between-game media under 343/HS has been kinda different if only because 343/HS keeps throwing out entire story lines between games instead of actually committing to anything

I do generally like 343’s games individually but they struggle to form something that fits together very cohesively

[versed helm]

Usually it’s all good. Places like Reddit definitely have a wider menagerie of people, and thus more toxic individuals can be seen there.

[versed helm]

Killing Atriox definitely seals his “Banished Arc”. I hope they don’t discard him in some stereotypical boss fight, but perhaps a spectacular end for such a spectacular villain

[stoic hamlet]

Depends on the subreddit, I think.

Halostory’s pretty chill.

Regular halo though? No.

[orchid kettle]

I just don't really vibe with halostory because without fail the trending topic is some variation of "If the UNSC is from the 26th century, why do they still use bullets?!!!!"

[ionic tiger]

This is why I miss the Waypoint Forums a lot. Sure, they had a rep, but at least I could find some good discussion there. Reddit and Twitter ain’t cutting it.

[hot zodiac]

All discourse on HaloStory is more about, say "how good the books are" rather than actually discussing Halo's story—I wouldn't even say most people think it's that good, besides the sacred Halo 4 of course

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm, very true.

It ebbs and flows though.

[last anchor]

What Im seeing from all of this is that a looootttt of people have not read First Strike

[last anchor]

Perhaps someday, we'll get a proper forum back.

[stoic hamlet]

A lot of people haven’t read the books in general.

[ionic tiger]

Though they’ll swear up and down how they are all just bad fanfic tier writing.

[unique rune]

and then proceed to claim that they’re necessary to understand 343’s game stories

[dusk jetty]

A lot of people don’t read period so the concept of a story not being a game/movie is automatically unappealing

I don’t read maybe as much as I should, but I can, and like sci fi novels in the first place

[empty bloom]

I never understood not being that 'into' reading.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s a sad fact that it’s somewhat a dying passion.

[hot zodiac]

As you can see this is also true for any other Halo "story" spaces

[hardy swan]

Halo books were great tho but I didn't read all

[hardy swan]

This is why I don't understand why they didn't make a show that was canon to the games

they just had to diverge so much majority of people didn't even like it

[spark pivot]

ngl if they just did a flashback at the start of EP 1 as like a cryo dream before the start of the events of CE and then just followed through the CE-H2/3 storyline it would've been awesome

heck they could've just even done a story about the spartans who were on zeta halo, or even one about whatever Locke is up to now (assuming they could convince Locke's actor to go through with it)

[hardy swan]

He already did one movie and Halo 5 right? was that him in Halo 5

[spark pivot]

technically nightfall was a series but yeah

ngl I think a halo series that just follows whats going on in Zeta halo would've been so much better received than what we got

(what we got would've also been received just fine if they left some parts out, coughend of episode 2 and that one moment with chief and covie ladycough)

[empty bloom]

The actor who did Nightfall is different than Locke's actual VA

[spark pivot]

really?

huh

oh dang they really aren't anywhere near the same

WAIT WHAT DO YOU MEAN LOCKE'S VA DID ATRIOX? HUH

[empty bloom]

And the Democracy Officer in Helldivers 2!

[spark pivot]

I was about to say that lol

dang

and the guy who I barely remember from MK1

[empty bloom]

But yeah, Mike Colter portrays him in Nightfall, H2A, and Halo 5's motion capture and charactermodel.

Ike Amadi voices him the rest of the time.

[spark pivot]

interesting

[empty bloom]

What's funny is that Escharum's VA also voices one of the Olog voice sets in Shadow of War.

And even uses the exact same voice, just with a different cadence.

And as long as we're keeping this common weirdness in order;

Gears of War 4/5's Snatcher enemy shares stock audio files with Halo 4's Flood Spartans.

[dusk jetty]

It’s not bruz, is it?

I always thought the two did kind of sound similar

[empty bloom]

Nope, Darin De Paul voices a mix of generic Olog, Humans, and Nazgul.

Bruz is voiced by Gideon Emery.

[dusk jetty]

Darn, that’d be a cool connection

[fair hazel]

Excited for the chronicles, with the new stories, and the book

I dont want Nysa to fall

Seeing the ship in canon, with the previous chronicle too, is nice

[empty bloom]

That reminds me of Battletech art to a weird degree.

The cockpit especially reminds me of a Leopard Dropship's.

[hardy swan]

looks star warsy

[versed helm]

Same thoughts as well. As a Godzilla fan, well, I know what it means to have existed within a very toxic community

[stoic hamlet]

Technically it’s already fallen. There’s no saving it.

[fair hazel]

Having it set up and further in the book for it to go down a bit dissapointing

[stoic hamlet]

It’s been found out, full evac is in order now.

Cole Protocol and all that.

[fair hazel]

I wonder if some of this is going to tie in with the next halo game

sort of the cleaning up some stuff to get the next halo game and setting set up?

[hardy swan]

They first have to deal with the situation on Zeta Halo

[stoic hamlet]

Maybe some of the extra chronicles?

But this? Not likely.

[fair hazel]

packing up nysa

then the next halo game's multiplayer being a new location

[hardy swan]

Another secret location

[ivory stump]

does somebody not going to mention that an Infinite voiceprint is voiced by Ray Chase, who also play as Neuvillette and Sukuna

[sour raven]

?

[carmine sleet]

I can blow your mind even more, Lumu is voiced by Erika Ishii, who is playing the protagonist of Ghost of Yōtei, Atsu. And Fret is voiced by the same person who voices Akechi in Persona 5 and Chai from Hi-Fi Rush, Robbie Daymond

[obsidian thistle]

Halopedia has a forum. 😛 Its sitting there kinda unused cause despite efforts it wasnt a success.

[low whale]

oratrice mechanique d'analyse cardinale

[low whale]

robbie my beloved

I nearly got a Fret print signed by him

but went for critical role instead

[undone shale]

I was wondering if anyone here would be able to answer a rampancy question?

[strange pumice]

7 years for smart AI, their lifetime, then growing rampancy

Like for Cortana

[undone shale]

Well my questions relates more to forerunner tech

[strange pumice]

343 guilty spark also been in rampancy

[undone shale]

but even human AI don't nesscessarily follow that ruling

Like Mack and Loki

But primarily I was curious to ask if Mendicant and Guilty really were rampant?

Given what we know of guilty he's not a AI in the conventional sense of a brain donor but a human's actual soul

That and mendicant's long span into rampancy over centuries would indicate otherwise about the 7 year rule

[strange pumice]

Forerunner tech more advanced than humans tech

[undone shale]

Since he would either become meta or die from thinking himself to death

[undone shale]

I understand that but that distinction from my knowledge has never been made

That and again Guilty as an AI isn't the same as Cortana

But then again Loki and Mack had been online for over 20 years and it's not indicated until the end of contact that they've just become rampant

[strange pumice]

Don't forget about Serina, from Spirit of the Fire, she was also a smart AI

[undone shale]

If I'm not mistaken she self terminated because of the seven year rule

that's why I was wanting to understand it better since it seems to be inconsistent

[strange pumice]

Yes

[undone shale]

So what's the deal with Loki and Mack?

[carmine sleet]

Robbie is fantastic from everything I have heard about him. Plus he makes for a fantastic Curious Cat

[undone shale]

I understand they are the same AI but two different cores but I'm not sure as to why then they've been stable for 20 years without incident

[low whale]

part of the reason is they were written pretty early on, before the rampancy rules were necessarily ironed out

but they swapped out so they had less load, and 1 was distributed across all the machinery on Harvest, which I guess acted as a big defrag for them

or they were rampant the whole time they were just groovy with it

and forerunner ancillas were a whole other level to human AIs

[strange pumice]

When the swap was needed, Mack would send the relevant data to Loki's matrix before Loki assumed control of the data center (and by extension everything Mack had influence over on Harvest). The AI moving out would then be fragmented among the JOTUNs, allowing the two AIs to function for some time without the threat of rampancy.
Source Halopedia

[undone shale]

I saw the source there and the page they refernce but the page itself doesn't actually attribute that to stave off rapancy

It seems like more of an assumption.

[undone shale]

Of course there I guess my confusion is there never seems to be a term for rampancy for forerunners

then again as well ancillas seem to be complete different to an AI.

[low whale]

yeah I think their "broken" ones had either been alone for a very long time or were actively corrupted

[undone shale]

Yeah I could accept that, it just seems odd is all that it's assumed rampancy when even that is a human term for the limited (in comparison) tech compared to forerunners

I don't think the forerunner novels even say mendicant was rampant either

[strange pumice]

Mendicant was corrupted by Gravemind, he fell to rampant and turned against own creators

[undone shale]

But that would go against the 7 years rule given the fact he fell over centuries of conversation with the gravemind

[low whale]

the 7 year rule is human AIs though

that's got nothing to with forerunners

[undone shale]

I understand that, that's why I'm not sure if rampancy is applicable to Forerunners

[low whale]

all the halo array monitors were built to last millennia

[undone shale]

Wasn't the rings meant to last longer then a thousand years?

[low whale]

yeah that's why I said millennia..?

[undone shale]

Millennia means a thousand

[low whale]

millennium means a thousand

millennia means thousands

[undone shale]

It doesn't though, i don't mean to be a jerk but it's definition is thousand

[low whale]

millennia is plural

it means thousands

...

1 millennium = 1000

2 millennia = 2000

millennia = as many thousands as you want

1000 millennia = 1 million

[undone shale]

Sorry man I really couldn't find anything to say that

but either way semantics aside that seems to confuse matters

[low whale]

I

don't know how to respond to this

millennia is not a niche word

[undone shale]

English ain't my first language so I have a dictionary with me

All I can say is that the book doesn't say thousands of years that's all

My point was though is the ancillas seems to be inconsistent with rampancy as there seems to be no established rules

[low whale]

the halo arrays and shield worlds were designed to last long enough to starve out the flood and repopulate the galaxy

that would take a very long time

the monitors were designed to operate them

and yes, I don't think the ancillas did go rampant in the same way as human AIs either

and if they did it took a very long time or something like a Gravemind torturing them

the same way Cortana's rampancy was accelerated by her time on High Charity being interrogated

[undone shale]

That's fair

[undone shale]

My assumption was they would be everlasting constructs rather then having an expiry date

Since they're able to be reused just in case the flood returned

Spark seems to indicate that when he discusses protocol with chief in CE.

[low whale]

things like sentinels seem pretty unaffected, and several of the other monitors are chill

I think 343 was just a bit of a freak tbh

[strange pumice]

Talking to himself is already the first sign that is something wrong

[undone shale]

I mean cortana does that too in CE

That's ecentric yes but not a diagnosis

[low whale]

in the framing narrative of the forerunner trilogy it sounds like he wasn't meant to be quite so strongly Chakas, so maybe that's why

[undone shale]

I mean heck Pentintent angent didn't seem to be corrupted despite being apart of gravemind

[low whale]

yeah exactly

penitent tangent is my fav monitor

[undone shale]

That's why confuses me is all

[low whale]

for no good reason aside from the name being great

[strange pumice]

And being alone for thousands of years is also giving a toll

[undone shale]

I think it's a harder case to establish rampancy for either constructs when it's a human term

[low whale]

I think ur trying to apply too strict rules to it

especially when things are being written by 20 authors over 30 years

god that's a long time

[undone shale]

I'm just working through the rules established

even mack and loki don't abide by that

This may sound stupid

[low whale]

well yeah contact harvest was written in 2006

and half of the forerunner lore didn't get set until later

[undone shale]

But given the conversations written about mendicant and gravemind it seems less that he was corrupted or rampant but convinced

[low whale]

when CE was made Guilty Spark was pretty much just "crazy alien AI left alone too long"

[low whale]

is this not what we already established?

[undone shale]

Gravemind pointed out the peculiarity of mendicant situation making contact with the gravemind and manipulated him.

[low whale]

millennia even 👀

[undone shale]

It just seems odd he's the only AI to be effected

[low whale]

built different

weird little guy

[undone shale]

when we have h2 and h5 show others that have been around just as long

seems a bit of a cop out

[low whale]

maybe he ate too much forerunner mushrooms on the ring

[undone shale]

Heck even warden eternal isn't rampant now that I think of it

[low whale]

this feels circular

[undone shale]

Sorry if it does

[low whale]

whoag, just like a halo

[undone shale]

just came to understand more

"looping, repeating... forever"

Good line from escharum.

[strange pumice]

Every AI has a risk of being rampant or not, but I'm not sure about the "stupid" one

[vagrant ocean]

He voices who?

[ivory stump]

Voiceprint 1A76

[vagrant ocean]

I mean the other characters listed. I’m not a weeb so I don’t know anime VAs.

[ivory stump]

And yeah in the campaign he voices Adjutant resolution

[low whale]

neuvilette is in genshin impact, sukuna is from the anime jujutsu kaisen

I have a signed print of Bruno Bucciarati from jojo's bizarre adventure on my wall from him :3

[obsidian thistle]

A lil side tangent. Cause its legitimately interesting. "Halo: Waypoint Chronicles – Volume One" wont be the first time Microsoft/Xbox released a physical release of stories that started in a Blog.

That honor actually goes to the Xbox Crimson Skies book published by Del Rey.

They never did it again till now 24 (will be 24 when the book releases) years later

But it a decent relic!

[empty bloom]

I need to finish Crimson Skies one of these days.

[stray acorn]

Why was chief sleeping in the start of CE? Is it because slipspace travel takes long enough that it would cut into the useful time of combat personnel? If so, then why was he only asleep in CE? there are other times where he should have as well, like when the In Amber Clad followed regret's ship through slipspace.

[empty bloom]

Eepy

[ionic tiger]

Human slipspace travel and Covenant slipspace travel aren’t the same speed. It took the Autumn about 20 days to get to Alpha Halo from Reach.

Conversely, the In Amber Clad made it to Delta Halo from Earth in about 10 because it went with the Solemn Penance’s slipspace wake.

May not seem like a huge difference, but considering Alpha Halo is on Earth’s doorstep and Delta is almost across the galaxy…it puts things in perspective.

[unborn patrol]

power nap

[orchid kettle]

There is a valid reason to ask why Chief was woken up last, though

Though I think its really just for dramatic effect, but its possible that back in 2001 you were supposed to think that "unsealing the hushed casket" or whatever was like some last-ditch effort by Keyes to ward off the Covenant

as if, for whatever reason, the UNSC would rather keep Spartans on ice until they're absolutely needed

[ionic tiger]

I’d also wager losing Reach and, as far as he knew, all the other Spartans might make Keyes think strategically about thawing out Chief too.

[stray acorn]

So, is that 10 days experienced the same by everyone? Because ODST bridges the gap between halo two and three, and that was only like a day long campaign.

[spark pivot]

it doesnt though?

[orchid kettle]

ODST takes place during the immediate aftermath of the Halo 2 level metropolis, yeah

[spark pivot]

ODST takes place in the middle of halo 2 lol

not even actually

[ionic tiger]

We’re still talking about gap of at least 11 days from the end of 2 and when Johnson returns to interrogate Vergil.

[spark pivot]

like after the second mission in halo 2, halo 3 ODST takes place

why does everyone assume that ODST bridges the gap between 2 and 3 when it honestly barely has anything to do with either of them

[orchid kettle]

It only "does" if you count the epilogue like cobra said

where Johnson has to have returned from Halo 2

[stray acorn]

I know that ODST starts as regret slipspaces out. In the end of ODST, during the wrap up cutscene back in orbit with the engineer captured, I could have sworn Johnson shows up. Unless I'm completely missremembering.

[orchid kettle]

the epilogue is way later

its not the same day

[ionic tiger]

He does, but that’s days later.

[stray acorn]

Oh, nevermind then

I thought it was like immediately after returning to orbit

Argument invalidated then. I thought it was like a reverse relativity, where you experience more time in slipspace, but the disparity between experienced time is low enough that it's the better option compared to standard relativstic travel.

[ionic tiger]

Just checked too, the epilogue even mentions it’s one month after Alpha-Nine dropped.

[stoic hamlet]

This comes up in Dirt actually.

Most marine and combat personnel were kept frozen even during battles, Ubless the captain thought there was a risk of boarding.

Which I’d say makes a lot of sense.

[empty bloom]

I mean, it does keep food costs down.

If anything the Infinity might actually be the only ship where most of the non-crew is consistently awake in the UNSC.

[stoic hamlet]

It should be.

But then we don’t really get a look at anyone else, and the ships we do see are all special (ugh)

[ionic tiger]

Also have to keep in mind usually those in cryo went in naked to prevent “freezer burn” with clothing sticking to people’s skin.

I can already see the hilarity of a boarding action happening with defrosted soldiers not able to properly gear up going at Covies with ARs buck bare.

[stoic hamlet]

Well, they would be quick-thawed, which is also shown in Dirt.

But yeah, the freezer burn is mentioned in CE itself.

And then in The Flood, as well.

Sadly (IMO) Halo tends to drop the cryo aspect and long travel times of things, and the nakedness hasn’t come up technically since Halo 4 with an off-hand mention.

[ionic tiger]

Yeah, it’s just one of those things mentioned in TFoR and then just never again. Which, I get since any depiction showing that in a game or elsewhere would probably trigger the highest rating for that media.

Last one would have probably been Halo Wars but even that showed everyone going under clothed.

[empty bloom]

You would think just underwear would be fine.

[stoic hamlet]

It does actually appear in Contact Harvest, as well, in the sense it’s fully acknowledged.

[ionic tiger]

Oh, ok. To be honest I probably just forgot since it’s one of the books I’ve probably read once and just never picked back up.

[stoic hamlet]

But yeah. Personally I’ve always appreciated it, it helped both show how humanity’s changed (no one really cares, at least if you’re a spacer) and it showed partially the rigours and etc of space travel.

With Halo being an American product, it was I think an easy way to he,p show that Halo’s far enough in the future in that sense that contemporary American sensibilities just don’t really factor in.

[stray acorn]

Really? I would think underwear would be the last piece of clothing you would want stuck frozen to your body.

[stoic hamlet]

And I despise when media needs to conform to contemporary taboos and etc.

[ionic tiger]

Ah yes, the Starship Troopers co-ed shower scene effect.

[empty bloom]

For the purposes of depicting cryo stuff, it's whatever.

[stoic hamlet]

More or less. It’s maybe a bit blatant, but it gets the point across.

I just find the whole “omg, nakedness bad/hot!!!” thing odd, and rather immature.

Nakedness and [word that’s probably on the mute list] aren’t mutually exclusive, the two can be shown or done or whatever independently of one another.

[wild flicker]

So I just noticed the Edge of Dawn update article on waypoint which talked about the events after the campaign and saw that it said this: "But every step towards answers is haunted by the sinister and elusive blademaster Jega ‘Rdomnai, who is hellbent on vengeance...."
So we didn't kill Jega in infinite?

[sour raven]

No, just injured him, he camo and ran away

He has no honor

Like other elites

[hardy swan]

Anders wearing her entire outfit in lol

[wild flicker]

oh, I didn't even remember that since it's been so long. I guess I thought I killed him.

[sour raven]

There is a glitch where his body doesn’t go camo

[ionic tiger]

I mean, it’s a surprise but also not? Dude survived a bomb blast that killed everyone else in his Silent Shadow squad in the story Headhunters.

He’s hard to put down.

[frigid heart]

Give me arby vs jega or give me death

[stray acorn]

Honestly earth is really lucky that New Mombasa's elevator seperated right at the terminal and not like halfway up or near the counterweight.

Oh, wait. Nevermind

Just read the wiki and I was wrong

I thought the slipspace event caused it to sever? It was shown to launch a ton of those ring segments in halo 2 unless I I'm missremembering

Nope, I missremembered. It bent slightly, but never actually severed on screen.

So, it severed at roughly 2,000,000km according to the wiki. It should have wrapped around the planet like 49 times. Even if it was mostly stationary, it would definitely have wrapped at least once as it fell.

[hardy swan]

why space elevator why not just fly

[frigid heart]

Because the space fuel economy in the future is atrocious

[unique rune]

flying doesn’t sound as cool and futuristic and also doesn’t make for big impressive background setpieces

[stray acorn]

How cannon is Halo 4: forward unto dawn (the movie)? Because it feels a little off time-wise. Supposedly no-one knew about the Covenant, and then got a crash course on the subject when they attacked the planet the school was on, but shouldn't they already know because of Harvest? Or was the UNSC keeping the Covenant under wraps at first. Not entirely brushed up on the early human-covenant war.

[unique rune]

Fully canon

It’s set very early in the war
Generally the UEG and UNSC tried to keep the conflict under wraps as much as possible at first

[sour raven]

Especially for innies

[stray acorn]

Ok, then consider me lore-ed

How hard was it to keep quiet then? Surely someone would have noticed human colonies going quiet one-by-one (besides the UNSC)

[unique rune]

It was effective enough that apparently some planets could be under attack in one hemisphere while the other half of it had no idea

[stray acorn]

Ok that makes no sense. Covenant glassing is like nuclear bombardment.

[hardy swan]

did anyone feel a thing in America when Japan got nuked twice

[stray acorn]

No, but seismic sensors would pick it up. And a detonation would look very different compared to normal seismic activity. Some very confused scientists would sound the alarm.

Also, isn't a covenant priority to knock out all interstellar communication ASAP? I think an entire planet would notice if email stopped working.

[unique rune]

In this particular instance (Meridian), the Covenant generally avoided glassing the planet (or rather a moon) due to the presence of Forerunner artifacts. Meridian’s own defense forces were able to keep the Covenant out of population centers to minimize panic and gradually evacuate the civilian population.

[unique rune]

Sort of but doctrine can vary greatly between different Covenant ministries and lower-level organizational structure (which is really just sort of a convenient excuse to allow different writers and authors with different ideas about things to coexist)

Though it also doesn’t help that the Battle Born novels are kinda weird in their own way due some… young adult novel-y-ness

[orchid kettle]

Every ship in Halo at this point feels like its got some magic anti-grav device that allows it to just hover in-atmosphere anyway, but before that, you would assume that the thinking is that spaceships couldnt just land and take off on the surface willy nilly. So in theory its easier to just dock with the orbital station at the tip of the space elevator, and you just move people or supplies up and down with it.

my copium is that I would like to think that only the military vessels have all these physics-defying hacks, while on a civilian craft, artificial gravity is a luxury, ability to operate in-atmosphere is zilch, and slipspace travel times actually matter.

[hardy swan]

Space elevators seem to take up a lot of materials to build

[hardy swan]

I mean even pelicans can go to orbit

[tired peak]

Well pelican do have solid fuel and ions I'm pretty sure

[wispy pewter]

i thought they were powered by fission or something

[vagrant ocean]

The early attacks can be dismissed as Innie attacks,

[vagrant ocean]

It saves money in the long run. It could take 100 years to build one, but then money and resources saved 150 years later will be worth it.

[versed helm]

How big of a role do you guys personally think Master Chief’s luck has played in his career?

[sleek vigil]

Even if they have anti grav tech, I like to assume many of them are still not rated for atmospheric entry. 🤔

[sleek vigil]

Pelicans are designed for that.

[sleek vigil]

I like to think it as more of a metaphor. Not literal luck.

We make our own luck.

[stoic hamlet]

Not hard.

Halo’s humanity is more like the age of sail in space, especially during the early war.

If… idk, Ireland ceased to exist in 1650, how long before that news reached the North American colonies? It wouldn’t be instant, and many people wouldn’t even really care. They wouldn’t know what “Ireland” even was.

[versed helm]

I mean, the odds always seem to be in his favor, even when he isn’t truly aware of it. Whether it’s a conga line of coincidences or the doing of the Precursor’s, he definitely has something others don’t… somewhat like Kurt’s uncanny ability to sense traps.

As far as I know, those are the only two Spartan’s with something “special”

[sleek vigil]

I don't know about doing of the Precursers.

Well, you can say odds are against his favours for Fred, very often.

[versed helm]

I dunno either, anything can happen

[sleek vigil]

He has the plot armour!

[versed helm]

But then you have Halsey and others pointing out MCs uncanny luck. I get a coin flip 11 times may not be the most reliable evidence, but it’s quite clear something is working in his favor, even when he has no power over it.

[carmine sleet]

Yeah, I doubt Chief is lucky because of anything intrinsic he has about him or some "divine intervention" by Precursors, he's just lucky

[versed helm]

Yes. I swear this may very well one of the only cases of lore-explained “plot armor” other than the character being unkillable😭

[versed helm]

It was a joke, implanting the Precursor’s into my speech

[carmine sleet]

It didn't come across as a joke

[sleek vigil]

Well, we only have few Spartans Halsey has commented on. I wouldn't think too deep about that.

[versed helm]

Well if you don’t know, now you know

[sleek vigil]

Unrelated, but I am really hoping HS would actually bring named Marine characters in their future games and have them present continously throughout the saga.

[versed helm]

Cortana too, in Halo Infinite if I recall correctly. I don’t remember, but did Echo-216 find the Master Chief thanks to some sort of tracker, or did he just bump into him?

[sleek vigil]

Friend or Foe tag.

He just stumbled across him because they were in the same space near Zeta Halo.

[versed helm]

Named Marines, huh? I like the idea. That one Halo Legends story was a nice watch, where the ODST’s had to do the Spartan’s job. To see the struggle of Marines would arguably be more inspiring.

[sleek vigil]

Y'know, we used to have Stacker, Dubbo and others.

[versed helm]

How did Echo even survive that battle? Genuinely I can’t remember😭 did he flee or just thug it out

[sleek vigil]

He stole the Pelican.

[versed helm]

Welp, at least he helped take down the sick boss man Space Monkey

By providing rides

[versed helm]

Perhaps, if 343 locks in, we might get something memorable

[sleek vigil]

The coin filp thing is so muddled with wrong interpretations.

[versed helm]

I mean, he got it right a good deal in a row. I don’t know how people could misread that. How do you interpret it?

[sleek vigil]

It's explained as being his agency.

Most common interpretation is that it show his luck, which even Halo Season One leaned into.

But I was very happy to see Halo Season Two literally said it out loud - it was his decision, his agency.

[carmine sleet]

Honestly, I think it would've been nice if we got some in Halo 4 outside of Stacker returning

[versed helm]

Looks like Halo show pleased some, glad to see it didn’t all go to waste

[sleek vigil]

I'm not an avid enjoyer of the show or anything, but there are few scenes in season one that are well done, and luck was one of it.

You can watch that sequence on YouTube.

The implication being that when he flipped the coin (or when Halsey made him flip the coin), he wasn't guessing, he knew.

[versed helm]

So, from that perspective, he makes his own destiny and doesn’t leave it to chance.

[versed helm]

I wonder if an avid enjoyer of that show actually exists

[sleek vigil]

When he decided to not follow ONI's orders and follow his own instincts—to help the Spartans—he tossed the coin and made the choice—help Spartans this defying ONI. And I think you'd be able to infer to the intended explanation here—he had the agency, he knew what he wanted to do—the coin just confirmed the obvious.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s actually quite common for a protagonist to be given some reason for surviving/excelling.

off the top of my head you’ve got John’s luck, Star Wars’ “Will of The Force”, Resistance has the Chimerean Virus give the protagonist healing and better senses, 40K often has some form of divine fate. Dark Souls/Soulsborne games often explain explicitly how you can taje extra damage and even respawn. All of these are explicitly called out in their respective universes.

Then you have stuff like Uncharted, where the fact Nathan Drake can take dozens of bullets is explained as “near misses” (I.e, he’s not being hit by dozens of bullets, it’s just constant near misses that eventually break the odds and hit, killing him).

[versed helm]

No surprise with 40K, and thanks for the run down!

I feel like a lot of the time it’s hard to get surprised by protagonists in lethal situations. If they are the main character, it’s likely they’ll succeed at some point or another.

[sleek vigil]

Okay, I should've said something along the lines of hardcore fan or something. Because, despite all it's glaring issues, I enjoyed every (non Kwan Ha) minutes of the show. Seeing the props, especially ones like Condor and Covenant Fleet, just makes me happy.

[versed helm]

My favorite part was the reveal of the flood in the caves. I immediately pointed at the screen and said, “that’s the flood. No question”. While they disappointed with the actual reveal, the way they introduced the concept was cool. Also, the choreography between the Arbiter and John was incredible

[sleek vigil]

They actually stayed very close to the lore when it comes to the Flood design, though with soem liberties. There's this “Seeder Form” which is Infection Form, but very small, almsot size of a human eye, which you might've seen in that episode, coming out of people's mouths.

There was a concept art for the combat form. It is an almost 1:1 accurate recreation. But it seems, presumably, due to production issues, they couldn't get to execute it properly, so we just got that one tentacle.

Overall, they had a really solid plan, and sort of fell short on execution, in my opinion.

[sleek vigil]

The choreography was solid, in my opinion. It's emphasising that visceral feel, and that's good. Season one's fight scenes are much more game-y, and the wide shots really showed the wierd CG issues, not to mention the uninteresting, often barren locations. But season two's choreography was able to hide those issues well for the most part, and the environments generally looked better, though this style of choreography sometimes comes at the cost of visibility.

[versed helm]

Definitely

[karmic gulch]

What illness does the monkey boss (idk how to spell his name) even have?

[sleek vigil]

Mostly dying of old age.

[karmic gulch]

How old is he?

[sleek vigil]

Quite old for a Brute.

His name is Escherum, by the way.

[carmine sleet]

I imagine Escherum had some sort of terminal illness as well and wanted to die in combat rather than letting it claim him

[sleek vigil]

He was suffering from a Terminal Illness. He was a decorated Brute Warlord and War Chief of the Banished. He wanted to have a last fight with the legend himself, to go out with glory.

[karmic gulch]

I know his name but I forgot how to spell it 😭

[versed helm]

No clue, but as someone already said, it could be from old age.

[versed helm]

Well, the second part of what you said is fact. He died a warrior’s death.

[dusk jetty]

It’s spelled Escharum, btw

[versed helm]

I find how people purposefully butcher that name on Reddit funny, like how good ol’ Tartarus became: “Tarter Sauce”

[dusk jetty]

Why did tartar sauce throw the lightbulb? Is he stupid?

[versed helm]

responds in angry Brute

[ionic tiger]

Given he would have been around when the Brutes literally nuked their homeworld, it could partly be a super aggressive form of cancer from the fallout.

[versed helm]

Interesting theory

[stoic hamlet]

I’m pretty sure the First Immolation occurred a few decades if not centuries before the Covenant’s arrival, before Escharum’s birth.

Unless they lost, then rediscovered radio and rocketry in under around 10 years.

But if it was that short a period, I wouldn’t even note that they lost the tech.

[ionic tiger]

He was born in 2471 and from what I’ve gathered the Immolation would have concluded not too long before 2492 and the Covenant’s discovery of the Brutes.

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah but if you just rediscover radio it implies hostilities had ended for a while.

Unless we’re talking about nukes being launched in say, 2460, they lose radio and rockets, then rediscover it in 2489… but that’s only around 30 years.

“Rediscover” to me implies the knowledge was out of living memory. That it was literally an unknown aspect of things.

That doesn’t really work if the war which destroyed radio and rocketry ended only a few decades before. You’d still have people aware of it.

There’s also no real mention of it being just concluded when we look at Maccabeus, and he was only born 5 years after Escharum.

It’s said to be “recently concluded”, but it implies to me the nukes happened well in advance, then the war went conventional.

[ionic tiger]

It’s something that evidently went on for decades. I don’t see it as a Fallout-esqe nuclear exchange that happened in a matter of hours. I’d imagine there were gradual exchanges all throughout.

Or maybe there was a great mass casualty exchange that put the big reset on their technological knowledge and the subsequent decades did involve isolated efforts at rebuilding.

Either way, if these happened in Escharum’s lifetime he’d inevitably suffer from the ill effects of the war.

Problem is we lack some hard dates, so I’ll withdraw the direct statement he WAS born during the Great Immolation. But I feel it’s still likely.

[empty bloom]

Considering the level of tech was as low as it was (With electrolasers apparently being within some form of memory to someone in the Banished), and the nature of the war, it could be a population-wide health issue that's just kinda normal for older brutes. I think most of brute culture is tied very lightly, at best, to their pre-Immolation culture; The difference in Skein behavior screams "We have two ways to survive what happened" to me, even if they have been allegedly stated to represent the pre-Immolation sides.

The strong near-universal usage of leather over mass-farmed fiber equivelants, the obsession with barter culture and pecking order, a heavy predeliction towards social heirarchy and fanaticism, an extreme focus on salvage and repurposing of metal-down to using the enemy's weapons readily and eagerly.

A nuclear immolation that rendered most of their old way of life untenable would result in a haphazard accounting for tech-bunkers would still exist, sprawling military sites would still exist, hulls of cities would exist; They'd be surrounded by echoes of the past if there were multiple nuclear powers, from the burnt hulks of dead forests to city skylines.

Radios would be within, at most, a generation or two of living memory, but not died out entirely. That sort of technology is hard to forget, even with an oral history only.

[stoic hamlet]

Aye, which is why “rediscover” seems an odd choice of words if they hadn’t actually “lost” the tech.

[dusky lava]

Is Rubicon Protocol a self contained book or does it rely on knowledge from other books

[ionic tiger]

It’s pretty self-contained.

[dusky lava]

Alr cool

Thx

I’m for one pretty excited for this upcoming book

[sleek vigil]

Edge of Dawn will also be a sequel to The Rubicon Protocol. Better read that before.

[hardy swan]

Yeah but it’s a master chief story

The only character so far confirmed from Rubicon is Lucas Browning

[sour raven]

Seems more like sequel to rubicon protocol

[ionic tiger]

If he’s involved, I can’t imagine they are going to leave out a huge amount of characters from RP.

[wispy pewter]

he has the aura

[stoic hamlet]

It also depends on the series. Some more blatantly acknowledge it, others just kind of say it in an out of universe sense.

Like, the most blatant example I can think of is Resistance, where the narrator directly calls out the protagonist should be dead because he’s been shot with mortal wounds, and she notes the incredulity (and fear) in the surrounding soldiers. At the same time, Resistance 3 and Retribution feature protagonists without this aspect, so in that case it literally is “just a video game, don’t think about it”.

Some games, like Titanfall, imply how the protagonist/player is able to do why they do based off a state of mind, which I’d wager is the best way to see situations like Spartans, and all that.

[hardy swan]

Uncharted dude has a luck bar instead of a health bar

[minor sky]

I am excited for Kelly Gay's next novel, but still a little worried that it will continue 343i/Halo Studios trend of ending plotlines in EU material in place of a game

Still the premise is really intriguing to me.

Granted it wouldn't be a major suprise if it ends up happening. The novels and short stories have been doing the heavy lifting for a while now

[sour raven]

I dont think the book will be a sequel replacement at all, especially since they mentioned it will be like first strike

It seems like its more of a sequel of rubicon protocol

[minor sky]

I hope that's the case

[ionic tiger]

They certainly aren't ending everything related to the Endless. Lucas Browning might give us some info from his POV about what he knows, but it's going to be comparatively little. With Palmer, Lasky, and who knows who else scattered on the ring and Atriox already unleashing the Endless in Infinite's Legendary ending, they probably aren't leaving anytime soon. I'd wager what is likely to happen is the SOS sent out to the UNSC at the end of Rubicon Protocol bears fruit and a rescue force arrives that sets us up for the beginning og the next game.

[minor sky]

But their record for this sort of thing does make me cautious

The worst case was definitely Halo 4 imo

Next 72 Hours is probably my least favorite story in this whole series

[sour raven]

And yeah, I doubt they will drop the endless anytime soon

So far, it seems like they are keeping the endless in games only, and only briefly mention them in other media

[minor sky]

The Endless getting written off in EU material would be a major mistake

[ionic tiger]

Given they have intentionally compared the next book to First Strike, it sounds like they have a real frame of reference moving forward.

[minor sky]

Right

If it functions more like how First Strike did to Fall Of Reach than I'll be happy

[sour raven]

They even mentioned on the waypoint article that they’ve been planting the seeds for the future of halo

Also, halo infinite mp story is ending on the 6th with part 2

[minor sky]

I would hate for them to do to The Endless what TN72H did to The Didact

[carmine sleet]

I wouldn't be surprised if we got a tease of what another member of the Endless is like in Edge of Dawn, but I imagine a proper reveal of them will be saved for the next main game

[sour raven]

Oh yeah, another harbinger situation, maybe one of them that was in contact with her

Would be cool

[carmine sleet]

Kinda

Maybe one of her subordinates who was freed after her death or something

[minor sky]

I really hope whatever game comes next has Chief reunite with Lasky and the Infinity crew

[carmine sleet]

But also, part of me wants the Endless to all be clones of one another just to give us more Debra Wilson in Halo

[wary cloak]

absolutly

[minor sky]

Just make The Harbinger like Warden Eternal/j

[sour raven]

Possibly, since the article does mention chief will be looking for survivors

[minor sky]

Right

I hope to see more of the conflict on the ring

[stoic hamlet]

Keeping to the First Strike comparisons, the Endless could take the reins of the Jiralhanae from that novel.

[carmine sleet]

I imagine we'll see him discover Horvath and then they'll eventually find Lasky and other survivors like Palmer

[carmine sleet]

I'd be cool with that

[minor sky]

We only saw a small glimpse of it in Infinite, and it'd be cool to see more regions and how the war played out

[sour raven]

Chief tp to a desert region at the end so…

[minor sky]

Right

I wish Halo Infinite went for an "Open Zone" formula like Sonic Frontiers ngl

[sour raven]

It kind of is like that

[minor sky]

Kind of

But lacking the environmental diversity

[sour raven]

Yeah

Could have explained it as the ring’s weather controls freaking out

Because of the heavy damage

[minor sky]

I was thinking each "Zone" is a mission in itself with a bunch of stuff off the beaten path. With a different theme/environment to it.

[minor sky]

Not the worst explaination

[minor sky]

Think Silent Cartographer or "Halo" (the level) but larger

There is some of that in Halo Infinite, but still very limited

[sour raven]

Ye

Also, what secrets do you think browning may have stuck in their head?

[minor sky]

A lot of the same stuff we got in Infinite really

I think the basic ingredients are there

[empty bloom]

The krabby patty secret formula

[sour raven]

Hopefully some previous zeta halo lore, resurfaces

[sour raven]

Oooo

[minor sky]

Taking out high value targets, rescuing Marines, stopping Banished opperations, coming across abandoned battlefields

One thing I'd love to see is more self-contained stories in locations

[sour raven]

Possible with survivors before they meet the chief

[carmine sleet]

Part of the Key to Time

A person in a Blue Box will need that

[sour raven]

What some person with a doctorate?

Who would that be?

[carmine sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/doctor-who-who-nose-gif-13079120

[minor sky]

Like you come across the entrance to a Forerunner structure in the cliffside and explore whats inside. Finding a rare Sentinel prototype to battle and/or a Marathon/Halo 3 style terminal.
Maybe you find the remains of a team of Marines, and follow the clues to various sites on the map to discover where they may have gone.

[sour raven]

Maybe some marine corpses, telling a story of them making their last stand against waves of banished, then some drop ships start coming by dropping waves of enemies

[minor sky]

Right

Just really uping the anti with trying to make the world feel more alive

And even then the little things are just as important. Like one detail I love in Halo CE is all the unique dialogue you can get

Or the vinettes you'd see Bungie's later games

(Yes ik 343 had those too. But I'd argue they were used far less/to less effect)

[sleek vigil]

Halo 7.

I'll say this - it'd be useful if Halo Studios just adds a ~3 minute exposition cutscene to the opening of Halo 7. A “previously on Halo” that quickly recaps the nescessarily events to give both fans and newcomer a solid understanding before going into the game.

[hardy swan]

Or just more cutscene stories in general

They need a triple A budget

[carmine sleet]

Infinite was a AAA game... The problem isn't something which needs more money thrown at it

[hardy swan]

So them skipping an entire storyline and limiting their original plans were not budget reasons?

[carmine sleet]

No

Like, people complained allot about Halo 5's story, which caused the team to pivot and do the soft reboot we got in Infinite

[minor sky]

The amount of lore in Empty Throne makes me wonder if that could've/should've been a game in itself

[carmine sleet]

I think that's because of how so much of Empty Throne's story wouldn't really work as a traditional Halo campaign

I do think a narrative for a Halo campaign could've been made out of Chief and Blue Team's time between 5 and Infinite, but I don't see that happening at this point

[sleek vigil]

That's not the reason for the rush though. They begand working on the storyline focusing on the aftermath of the Created as early as 3 weeks after the launch of Halo 5.

[carmine sleet]

Nobody said anything about a rush? Penguin said the story being the way it was was due to lack of budget, not lack of time

[sleek vigil]

You refuted the budget claim, implying it's the time issue. 🤷‍♂️

Since Penguin included “limiting their orginal plans”

[orchid kettle]

I think 343 partially lost faith in the idea as well. If I recall, when commenting on Infinite's opening scene, they mentioned how it was difficult to think of anything else to do for the UNSC besides bum-rushing Cortana and hoping that cutting the head of the snake would end the Created for good

I guess because like you see in Bad Blood and basically any piece of media set in 2559, all anybody could do is run away before Cortana and her Guardians notice

[carmine sleet]

Nothing I said implied anything about time

[orchid kettle]

I also think any villain saddled with the Prometheans are kinda burdened rather than empowered, creatively speaking

Because the Prometheans aren't characters, they're just weapons.

[sleek vigil]

That may not have been your intention, but it could imply that unless you specifically refuted all their points instead of making a general statement.

Anyway, this is a pointless argument. LOL.

[orchid kettle]

Im sure a good writer could make something engaging about the Created AI fighting among themselves on just how evil they wanna be

but it also feels like you can't have a new guy be more evil than Cortana because then it feels like she's being upstaged

which seems like that's the dynamic they wanted with Sloan, where he's willing to use the Executors while Cortana apparently didn't approve of them

and I can only assume that if the Created continue to exist throughout the galaxy, it will be through Sloan

[carmine sleet]

My dude, me saying "The problem isn't something which needs more money thrown at it" doesn't somehow imply I'm claiming there was a time issue, especially when I said "people complained allot about Halo 5's story, which caused the team to pivot and do the soft reboot we got in Infinite" just after. At no point do I imply anything, or say anything which could imply, I am claiming the story in Infinite was the way it was because it was rushed

[orchid kettle]

In my mind I always imagine 343 putting out the Atriox trailer for HW2, seeing how its like the first bit of positive feedback they've had on a villain in a long, long time, and then choosing to stake everything on the monkey instead

though the way I hear it, apparently they've been hyped about Atriox internally even before the public saw him

[carmine sleet]

Honestly, given the excitement people had when we first saw him, I can understand why

[orchid kettle]

That's kinda why I like to frame Infinite's narrative shift as, not just a cynical backing down from the ideas they had in 5, but more so a newfound passion for monkey

Because Infinite's gotten its fair share of hate as well and they're still glazing the Banished in every book they release

[versed helm]

I personally didn’t see you ever outright state it was a time problem; and implications are subjective, so I agree with what you’re saying. Also, I feel like Infinite itself was rushed, let alone the story alone. It took a couple of season releases in multiplayer to get to where they should have been, in my opinion.

[versed helm]

They’ve moved onto the Endless. “Greater threat than the flood”, yea right…

[carmine sleet]

Honestly, I do wish we knew more about the development of the game

[orchid kettle]

Well Halo's always kinda juggled multiple antagonists at once. In the original trilogy it was Covenant, Flood, and sometimes Guilty Spark whenever he got spicy, in the Reclaimer Saga it was Jul's Covenant and the Prometheans.

and now its Banished and the Endless, even though the latter have yet to truly debut

[carmine sleet]

The only ones who said they were a bigger threat were the Forerunners and Cortana (Who was using what the Forerunners had said). The Forerunners are known for exaggerating and making themselves look better. Plus the threat the Endless posed is less "They are going to consume the galaxy more than the Flood" and more "Oh, we (The Forerunners) had plans for humanity after the Halos fired, the Endless surviving the Halo Array is a big threat to that plan"

[orchid kettle]

Its a poorly worded line that's kinda just there for hype

Im still pissed they chose to make Atriox's "banishment" take place in 2548

because that ends up meaning he only eluded the Covenant for four years, but Isabel's speech obviously wants you to think that it was way longer than that

It also personally makes sense to me that Atriox's rebellion predates Truth's ascension to Hierarch, as Truth was the guy who was obsessed with giving the Jiralhanae a higher station on the Covenant at the expense of the Elites

that's supposed to be why we don't see any Prelates during the HCW after all, they're too busy training Brutes for the Great Schism.

[carmine sleet]

I'd be fine with it being pushed 10 years back at least, because then there's some time for him to have been waging war with the Covenant (But yeah, having the Banished be predating the Human-Covenant War would be more interesting)

[orchid kettle]

but now we're just kinda supposed to believe that the Jiralhanae are simultaneously treated like crap while also being showered in Truth's favor behind the scenes

[carmine sleet]

Though I would then be questioning how the UNSC didn't ever come into contact with the Banished

[orchid kettle]

and I guess its not impossible

it just kinda feels like-- if Truth's people knew a guy half as cool as Atriox existed, would they really leave him where he was

[orchid kettle]

Galaxy's a big place, Banished were basically just a roving band of outlaws and pirates on the other end of Covenant space

[carmine sleet]

Fair point

[orchid kettle]

I also just kinda want confirmation that the Covenant do fight things other than humans and the occasional grunt rebellion

[versed helm]

You can explain it perfectly for all that matters, which you have, but I still don’t support a direct comparison between the Endless and Flood.
Even if it’s exaggeration, it be better never said at all.

[orchid kettle]

Their history is super bare but I want a Covenant that's constantly putting down petty rebellions

[carmine sleet]

Covenant vs the shark aliens when

Like, you just know the Covenant would've been mad to see some of them wearing Forerunner metal as armour

[versed helm]

I wonder who the final antagonist of MC’s saga will actually be. I think the Banished have worn out their welcome.

[empty bloom]

I guess you could make it out to be a skein thing. Those who followed Tartarus' ways were preferred because they were more zealous and more easily fell for the lies, due to some inherent trait their society preferred; While those of Atriox's skein were quietly being utilized more as linebreakers to kill them off.

The brutes being less homogenous in terms of politics as a species than elites, who were starting to diverge in a way that the prophets didn't really appreciate, would mean that the prophets would have more control over how to ensure the brutes were treated-exploiting a social wedge in their usual skein system.

[orchid kettle]

I still like the Banished a lot, my only beef is how huge they've become

And its really weird because like, surely in a post-HCW, post-Cortana world, you don't even need a huge force to be a threat to our heroes

Home Fleet has been destroyed like four times already, where are these new ships coming from

the UNSC navy just respawn I guess like the Dothraki

[versed helm]

Well, the majority of their most prized leaders have been murked by Green Boy. I doubt they’ll last past Halo 7. Atriox is definitely making his return, and maybe Jega as well. However, considering Halo literally rinsed their entire campaign team iirc, the same people with the idea to make Jega’s “death” a mystery won’t be there to see it through.

[orchid kettle]

The latest book just told us that the force that went to Zeta Halo was only half of Atriox's forces at best

[versed helm]

I still like Atriox, he’s a smart and very strong space monkey with a goated hairstyle

[orchid kettle]

and now there's a new ginyu force of bad guys called The Eight, led by a darth vader Brute

[carmine sleet]

Yeah, they didn't send everyone to Zeta, the Banished have other things to protect or try and claim

[versed helm]

Jesus, the Banished really are a big faction

[versed helm]

Can he use the force?

[orchid kettle]

No but he has laser sword arms

[versed helm]

🤨

You’re serious, right?

[orchid kettle]

Like what Jega had, but just on a Brute

[versed helm]

😭

Bro

[carmine sleet]

Like, in general, if you've been expanding to the point where you could pose a genuine threat akin to the Covenant, you can't just bring literally everyone with you for every mission

[versed helm]

Darth Brute exists

[carmine sleet]

Wait until you learn who Severan is the son of

[versed helm]

Alright, who?

[carmine sleet]

Tartar

[vagrant ocean]

The Dazreem?

[versed helm]

I had a feeling it be sauce boy…

[carmine sleet]

Aye, those shark aliens, I always forget how to spell their name

[vagrant ocean]

I doubt the Covenant will fight them. If we seen them at all it’ll be in the company of the San’Shyuum.

And considering how we’ve only heard of them recently due to how secretive the San’Shyuum are about them, I suspect their homeworld is a bastion of Forerunner artifacts and ancient Covenant tech.

[orchid kettle]

I want the slugmen to be in a story/game

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe if there’s a game where you play as the SoS, because the Slugmen are very rare and are essentially the personal assassins of the Hierarchs.

[orchid kettle]

Ill always be pissy when 343 canonizes something like that, only to say "well actually its super rare and may not even exist in the current day"

[vagrant ocean]

And I think they’d be rare enemies given how their primary weapon, the Wukrshuz-pattern particle rifle, is very rare.

[orchid kettle]

like, no, give me my silly slugmen

whats the point of being canon if they're not in the story

[carmine sleet]

Let them just exist as a kinda rare soldier. No need to add in the "They may not be around anymore" bit

[orchid kettle]

Just say a slug man is what happens when Hunter pairs split in half, like how a Goliath is what happens when the two are joined together

[vagrant ocean]

Well, we just don’t know much about them.

[orchid kettle]

but it hasn't been used that much because obviously a Hunter provides the best balance of firepower, mobility, and not being consumed by bloodlust or whatever the Goliath's issue was

[vagrant ocean]

I just want a game with the Cougar in it.

Or the MA2B

[orchid kettle]

But because of the post-war situation where the galaxy is basically the wild wild west, Hunters have found new use for the slugman form as its easier for them join mixed human/kig-yar crews and ride around in their smaller ships

[carmine sleet]

Ok... And why would us not knowing much about them prevent them from allowing them to be in a game?

[orchid kettle]

they can walk into a bar with their pals without busting through a wall by accident

[vagrant ocean]

Never said it did, I’m just talking about their formation and such. We don’t exactly know. Maybe a game would delve deeper into it, or a novel, but as of now records are sparse due to the fall of High Charity.

[ionic tiger]

It’s a double-edged sword. 343 loves to take cut content or old concepts, canonize them, but muddles the waters a bit. Like, yeah, the slugmen exist but are explained away as rare in the canon to cover why we never see them.

But I feel that gets in the way of future implementation.

[orchid kettle]

Im fine with the Yonhet method of just like, "There were better species to use in that role in the Covenant Military, but in the postwar, the human characters interact with more facets of alien society than just the warriors"

[empty bloom]

It's absurdly self-limiting.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m sure we’ll see them at some point if they explore more Prophet lore.

[orchid kettle]

Even being era-specific is fine I think if it's actually an era Halo makes content for

[ionic tiger]

Definitely get the vibe the Yonhet are the Halo answer to the Hutts.

[empty bloom]

I feel like they're more Batarian than Hutt.

[ionic tiger]

Might be appropriate a comparison but my knowledge of Mass effect is limited 😂

[vagrant ocean]

If anything the Kig-Yar are more like Hutts in terms of actions.

[orchid kettle]

I don't care for how Star Trek-y they are, but I do really like hanging out in the galaxy's seedy underbelly compared to everything being military v. military

[vagrant ocean]

The Yonhet are more like Weegways or Nikto.

[orchid kettle]

as silly as it is that there's a designated Smuggler species

[vagrant ocean]

There’s technically 2.

[empty bloom]

It is immensely frustrating to see something that could be expanded on so readily, and honestly in a way that would likely be better for the franchise than the end of the world happening all the time, just kinda get neglected, ignored, then scrubbed out as 'rare'.

[orchid kettle]

I'd like it if the cut CE weapons like the old pistol and smg were at least weapons popular on the black market

Because we obviously have characters in that space that could run into them

[ionic tiger]

Yeah, I’d just introduce them and when asked where they were just mention it’s a big galaxy. When you really see how much territory the Covenant implied to have it makes sense.

[orchid kettle]

The Space Luger is just begging for a Han Solo type character to come along and make it their trademark weapon

[vagrant ocean]

Give me the Space Luger in .45

The Lord’s caliber.

[empty bloom]

It'd be so easy, and that's what annoys me so much.

"Yes, you fight Fleet of Harmonious Dysfunction in this game. No, not all fleets use Jackals exclusively as snipers. No, skirmishers weren't nearly dead because of one damn planet."

[orchid kettle]

best i can do is Petra pulling out an old Colt .45 revolver on an Elite back in Escalation

[empty bloom]

It just cuts you off from having things that actually, y'know, can come up later for a whole new reason.

[vagrant ocean]

Specifically a 1873 Single Action Army

[empty bloom]

Considering how nostalgic humans can get, I'm surprised there aren't more old human rifles and pistols using newer ammo in the Halo franchise.

[orchid kettle]

Given how territorial covenant species can be when they feel like their purpose in a unit is being intruded upon, I do think its makes plenty sense for it to be the case that fleets never want to mix slug men and Jackals

as they effectively filled this same role as the inbetween of Grunts and Elites

[vagrant ocean]

Yeah, we’d have to have a game with no jackals.

[orchid kettle]

technically we did

Halo Wars 2

[empty bloom]

That's just Halo Wars 2- Yeah

[orchid kettle]

no Jackals in the Banished, weirdly enough

[empty bloom]

And then Infinite came out lmao

[orchid kettle]

well it would be kinda weird for the Banished to exclude them

the Jackals love being pirates

[empty bloom]

It was weird for HW2, them being back now makes sense.

[orchid kettle]

I guess they didn't want to make Jackal models for the snipers when they could just reuse the Elites and give them carbines?

[vagrant ocean]

I think it’s more about the Enduring Conviction not having them?

[sleek vigil]

Fair perspective. Maybe I interpreted it based on my own presumptuous knowledge.

[orchid kettle]

Probably, like how we all assume Thel just didn't take Brutes with him to Alpha Halo.

[vagrant ocean]

Yee

Racism

[sleek vigil]

Thel the Space Racist

[orchid kettle]

unless Fireteam Raven has them but I don't remember seeing them

[sleek vigil]

Flood Juggernauts are absolute units in that game!

[empty bloom]

Thel's funny to me. I wish they'd actually go into having him reading like, UNSC/Old Earth military studies or something and learning from them.

Thus explaining why he suddenly decided to rail against banning stuff that even the old elites were for banning, like women being soldiers and combat medics being a thing.

[hardy swan]

Hopefully we get to see Hovarth in the next book

[empty bloom]

(Then again, jackals also do the first thing, being matriarchal-)

[vagrant ocean]

I think part of that has to do with him needing more manpower to fight holdouts.

[empty bloom]

Like, I am aware of the real canon reason why he decided to start allowing the former-but also, it'd be neat.

[orchid kettle]

Charitably, I assume the in-universe reason for Thel suddenly being so open minded about everything is because after the Great Schism, he's just not willing to trust in mere tradition anymore, and he just wants to find out for himself what works and what doesn't

[empty bloom]

Which IMO, does make the fact that it feels like half the damn planet hates his reforms make sense.

[orchid kettle]

(but he will not turn Vadam Keep into a democracy, pls understand)

[vagrant ocean]

Like, he adheres to the ones he thinks make sense

[orchid kettle]

I mean I guess he was elected, just by the elders

[vagrant ocean]

That was also the fact ONI started the war to weaken him.

[empty bloom]

Also, relevant-mad props to whoever was left in Jul's leadership that was fighting Thel on Sanghelios. Because they nearly killed their guy, and likely would have if Osiris didn't show up.

[vagrant ocean]

Yup.

Kitun 'Arach did his best.

“Imma kill the Kaidon with this one!!”

[sleek vigil]

I would say, calling it “racism” the way we use the word for human-on-human prejudice is a bit misleading. It's more like interspecies discrimination based on observed traits—which could still be harmful, but it isn’t inherently irrational, unlike the human racism which involved arbitrary rules assigned by certain groups of people to oppress a different group.

[vagrant ocean]

All I know is I don’t trust those space turkeys.

[orchid kettle]

Well I mean to be fair racists throughout history insisted that there were immutable characteristics that made one race inferior to another, and the racial hierarchy was thus totally justified!

[sleek vigil]

Thel is woke... but not that woke.

[sleek vigil]

There was a Cultural Renaissance, wasn't there?

[orchid kettle]

But I feel like the whole point with Shadow of Intent was to challenge your, and the characters' preconceptions about the other aliens

We have a grunt giant who leads Elites, a female Sangheili combatant (and I guess Sangheili who know their father), a supersoldier San 'Shyuum who makes Rtas realize that the species shouldn't be judged by on the action of the Hierarchs

[sleek vigil]

But that was factually and scientifically inaccurate, regardless of what they claimed. In contrast, different species have:

Different neurobiology

Different evolutionary pressures

Different cultural instincts

Often different levels of technological or social development when first contact happens.

[empty bloom]

I feel like Stolt is kinda cheating.

When it comes to challenging preconceptions.

[orchid kettle]

Sure but Halo for the most part kinda wants you to read these aliens as basically human as anybody else

They care for others, they love, they hurt, they grieve, they wonder about their place in the universe

[vagrant ocean]

But is that human or an immutable characteristic of sentient life?

[empty bloom]

Like, I'd say characters like Dibdib are likely better examples of displaying equal or exceptional task competence than Stolt, who is kinda just "Oh I made this specific grunt huge".

[orchid kettle]

Just because Jackals build a hoard of shiny objects because they're birds with a nesting instinct doesn't necessarily mean you should discriminate

[empty bloom]

(Dibdib is a grunt woman who effectively is a grunt version of Vale, hold the supersoldier)

[sleek vigil]

An exception, rather than the rule.

[empty bloom]

Not to say there's anything really wrong with Stolt, I just think he's a bit extra. "Oh it's a grunt so big it can beat a Spartan in a fistfight" is just silly, but this is Halo.

[orchid kettle]

my hot take is that i think the average Grunt beats the average Jackal in a fist fight already

and the birdbrains are real lucky that the Grunts are too scared of their own shadow to fight back most of the time, apparently

[empty bloom]

Also, I am glad that apparently humans weren't the only ones taking in refugees post HCW. Apparently so was Suban.

Now if only the subject could be brought up more so people would stop thinking that Earth is the only planet refugees went to.

[hardy swan]

Those silly things

They will surrender and then start shooting you immediately

[empty bloom]

... Please don't make me have to explain that remigration is a form of genocide and thus a societal evil again, now that I made the mistake of bringing refugees up.

[hardy swan]

Earth for Humans!

Brb gonna create a xenophobic anti alien twitter account

[orchid kettle]

so, a twitter account

[hardy swan]

lol

Listen everytime someone says that we shouldn’t be racist to aliens is always when the show or story makes it justifiable to do so

Like Thel should literally be paying the UEG reparations for war crimes

[empty bloom]

This is not Helldivers.

Or 40K.

And even then-in those, humanity is genuinely responsible for at least half of the crap in the crapsack world in those franchises.

[hardy swan]

Oh yeah so here is the thing.
When you hear news of billions of humans dying to genocidal aliens. What would your mind think about?

“Oh let’s live next to one in New Phoenix”

[carmine sleet]

Isn't the bug problem in Helldivers created directly by Super Earth?

[empty bloom]

Yes, the bug problem in Helldivers is literally because they harvest the bugs for fuel.

[carmine sleet]

Knew I remembered that right

[orchid kettle]

Delicious E-710

[hardy swan]

Undemocratic bugs

[carmine sleet]

It isn't even subtle that it's "oil" upside down

[empty bloom]

What would my mind think about? "Boy that guy ranting on the internet sure is weird", if it was real life.

Because there's a lot more steps to how human interaction with the Covenant went than just one sentence by someone on the internet.

Like, what if I was on Venezia and interacted with Jackal pirates? I'd automatically know it's clearly the Covenant, not Jackals, who want to kill all humans. I just went and bought some apples from Kik the other day, weird birdman that they are, so they're chill.

Xenolinguist listening on an open line to elite intercommunique questioning why they're being told to wipe humans out in 2550? Different perspective.

[hardy swan]

It still seems many Elites doesn’t reallly like humans except for Thel

[unique rune]

with what resources

the UEG/UNSC was in no position to be negotiating for that and they’re lucky Thel has enough sway with the Sangheili to keep most of them from starting the war back up again

[empty bloom]

Like, there's plenty of examples of Covenant species, if not Covenant forces, operating in a way incongruous with this hypothetical 'established' Covenant behavior. And the Covenant intel lines were shot through anyways because apparently they never thought to encrypt things.

[hardy swan]

The Infinity was literally uncontested above Sanghelios they could have nuked them to dust

[unique rune]

The Infinity is one single ship

The Sangheili maintain numerous colony worlds

[empty bloom]

More elites in the galaxy than just on Sanghelios, and doing that would give the elites a very, very good reason to get the band back together for a revival tour.

[hardy swan]

And didn’t they mention the Elites had no way to maintain their ships

Anyways they are allies now so

[unique rune]

Jul ‘Mdama didn’t have much trouble maintaining a fleet with at least two assault carriers and numerous smaller cruisers

[empty bloom]

There's also the innate human drive to be weirdly friendly with things trying to kill us.

Humans talk big game about being incredibly xenophobic over dumb crap, but as a species we tend to be highly inclined to make exceptions even in situations where the self-styled xenophobes tend to think we wouldn't.

[unique rune]

It’s weird how Halo’s got this whole thing about putting aside differences and working together to defeat the bad guys but people insist on “humanity #1 kill all the aliens”

[hardy swan]

I wonder how he did that. It was the other species or engineers he got I think

[empty bloom]

Grunts are capable engineers.

Jackals are spacefairing cultures in their own right.

And Jul is a warrior who is used to a more decadent form of warfare than either of those.

[hardy swan]

Because that has been done before 😭

[unique rune]

The Covenant was such an integral part of Sangheili society that they still had a lot leftover from them

Like all the Unggoy and Jiralhanae working under Sangheili fleetmasters didn’t just vanish into thin air

[empty bloom]

The latter? Yes, it's been done to death and back.

Helldivers, Starship Troopers, Warhammer, Sins of a Solar Empire, Ender's Game, a few hundred others I don't really care to name.

[hardy swan]

Helldivers feel like a parody tbh

[empty bloom]

... Folks, should we tell them?

[unique rune]

very observant today

[hardy swan]

🤨

[empty bloom]

Yes. It is a parody.

Just a very fun one.

[hardy swan]

Ah yeah.
I just want Halo to move on from making the UNSC constantly being the underdog

[sleek vigil]

Well... “Humanity's no longer on the defence. We are the giants”.
cue To Galaxy

Our time shall come... 2589...

[stoic hamlet]

I wouldn’t use Ender’s Game as the example here, lol.

But yeah.

I will agree with Penguin though that Halo kind of shortcuts its way to the Mass Effect idea… and not very well. Though they’ve thankfully gotten better with it.

[orchid kettle]

You kinda have to have the UNSC as underdogs on some level or else everything starts a feeling a lil too much like HD2 or 40K when it's just a military power effortlessly crushing dissidents

Its why I never really vibed with Jul's Covenant as the bad guys because it felt like the UNSC was just cleaning up its own mess

which yes you could argue is true to life but I don't think I want to play the war on terror but in space

[stoic hamlet]

That’s more an issue because H4/that era of the fiction just completely dropped any real pretence that the HCW was as bad as it was, and our focus was and always has been on Infinity. Take her out of the picture (don’t even need to destroy her, just don’t have her present) and they’re no longer even really comparable ship-to-ship.

[vagrant ocean]

Hell, the Mulsanne-class and their lasers aren’t even effective against Covenant shielding.

[unique rune]

I feel like that's more likely just an issue of a frigate being very poorly matched against an assault carrier

[vagrant ocean]

True, but you’d think it’d scratch them,

Not just essentially bounce off.

Also I want more scenes involving the Vindication-class battleships and Anlace-class laser frigates.

[dusk jetty]

Obligatory “Enders game actually is against that” which I assume you know

[empty bloom]

Kind of an oopsie on my part yeah

[dusk jetty]

I don’t care for the series but I did read the first novel because “sci fi classic”

[wintry sleet]

purely a silly question: do y'all think the Spartans in training (when they're teens) would get braces
I think it would be silly in a fun way if so

[stoic hamlet]

It’s possible? I mean, they’d be well looked after and etc. you don’t want to lose your investment. A lot of money and time was spent on them.

[carmine sleet]

It'd be weird if they didn't give any of them braces if they needed them

[orchid kettle]

all of dr halsey's children were so genetically perfect they never had to experience the horror of having their wisdom teeth impacted

[wintry sleet]

LMAO

11 y/o Master chief in his year book photo with braces would be silly funny

[minor sky]

Yeah I can definitely see that being the case

I know this isn't exactly a controversial thing to say but, I really think The Created was the wrong direction to go

I think they should've just stuck to their guns after Halo 4, rather than toss that narrative out. Granted I could also argue that Spartan Ops being set 6 months after Halo 4 might've screwed with the timeline a bit

[orchid kettle]

I feel like Halo 4 was also the wrong direction when it came to like, Jul and the Didact

[empty bloom]

I'd say 4 is farther afield than 5 was. 5 wasn't the most unreasonable course of action after 4, but 4 was an unreasonable course of action after 3/Reach.

[orchid kettle]

If Empty Throne had just kept both sides weakened after losing so much at Zeta Halo it would have been good

I don't really care for the idea that there're still massive UNSC and Banished fleets running around doing whatever despite having lived under Cortana's thumb for the past year

Because if nothing else Cortana's reign felt like a good excuse to get things back on track

We could finally fix the post-war UNSC being too powerful after being pushed to the brink of destruction seven short years ago

Hell we have multiple waypoint chronicles about how the UNSC doesn't have the resources to protect everybody anymore, and that's what allows that one guy to make the Venetian Janissaries and Adam, the CEO man, to try and make his own corpo Spartans

Zeta Halo swallowing up the better part of Banished, UNSC, and even Created power all in one fell swoop sounded like it made for a super interesting galaxy

[minor sky]

I am split on that. I agree that one of Halo 4's biggest narrative failings is not giving any real explaination or character to the Covenant beyond a few off hand remarks. But I think the Didact was pretty solid, albeit very much in need of a little more direct presence in the story/time to let his story breathe in the main campaign and not just the Termimals

[orchid kettle]

Didact is tied too heavily with the Forerunner Saga half of the post-war era for me

and I don't really think the Mantle plotline is as interesting as the writers think it is

[minor sky]

Halo 4 is really close to nailing it, but falls short in a few too many areas

The campaign really needed another mission or two to let the story breathe

And also do a better job of bridging the gap between 3 and 4

As I said above, the Covenant have almost 0 presence in the story beyond "A lot can happen in 4 years" and "These Covenant seem more fanatical than the ones we fought before"

Letting the opening of the game serve a bridge between 3 and 4 with damaged Halo 3-style UNSC equipment/weapons, letting us get to know more about Jul 'Mdama's Covenant, and a little more build up to the Didact's reveal would go a long way IMO

[fresh ice]

I need some help—what was Noble Six's canonical armor, besides it being your custom armor? Was it just the plain Mark V [B]?

[minor sky]

If it were up to me I'd include two extra missions, one between Requiem and Forerunner and one between Infinity and Shutdown.
The first one giving a little more build up to the Didact + the Covenant's doings on the planet.
The second one existing to do away with that Info dump at the end of Reclaimer. I really think that could've just been its own level dedicated to getting those story details across.

[empty bloom]

I get the Mantle plotline but yeah, I concur with this.

[obsidian thistle]

Oh oh oh!

So if you have the novel or audio-book Halo: Contact Harvest! We are starting discussions of it in the new book club! I hope to see as much of y'all there! (If its not obvious, I am absolutely jazzed this actually is happening)

https://discord.com/channels/471722331820130324/1379175465440514118

[minor sky]

Shame I left it at home while I'm traveling

[dusk jetty]

I believe there was some cut content for that

Much of it didn’t get past storyboards but there was more info on the librarian and didact that you would find instead it being dumped

[minor sky]

Right

Generally I think Halo 4 just needed more time in the oven

Some of the developer interviews kind of give the feeling of the project being compromised

Namely with stuff like them knowing The Watcher wasn't working but having to ship it anyways

Or some of the levels being scaled back heavily from their prototype stage

[empty bloom]

It's an open secret that 4 was a slashed up rush job.

The fact it was as playable-and IMO, fun-as it is has more to do with the competence of the team they had slapped together at the last moment than anything else.

[minor sky]

Shame they weren't able to keep said team together

[empty bloom]

C'est la vie, I suppose.

I think it was faaaar too ambitious of a plot for 343's first game, and should've been an Xbox One title. Amusingly, I think a 4 released earlier into the Xbox One's lifecyle than at the very end of the Xbox 360's life cycle would've been a waaaay better call, like, 2014 release.

Would've given them time to hammer out a plot, better workflow, et cetera

But all looks internally that can be gleaned show a studio uncomfortably ballooning from a skeleton crew to a fully fledged studio, plus a messy plot direction informed by books that hadn't even really hit public consciousness fully yet (And I say that as someone who strongly disagrees with the notion that you need books to understand 4 and 5's plot, a claim that seems even more hollow compared to Infinite), colliding into a game that, while technically savvy, functions primarily off of Reach's bones and doesn't quite secure a future for a franchise.

I remember when 4 first came out. It took until the cusp of Halo 5's release for people to start saying it had a tolerable plot.

[minor sky]

I completely agree that 4 should've been an Xbox One release

The game was pushing the Xbox 360 to its absolute limit

I think Microsoft wanted too much out of 343 too soon

[empty bloom]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

[minor sky]

I think it is a shame that the narrative ballooned so much after Halo 4, because despite some rough edges I do reallt enjoy 4's story would've liked a proper sequel to it

As someone who absolutely hates The Next 72 Hours, I do think that story had good material that should've been explored in a game

I will say I do like how Infinite and the Troy Denning novels have really built upon 4's narrative threads of Chief rediscovering more of his humanity

[unique rune]

Sometimes I think about something Ryan Payton said in Vice's big old article about Halo's development history and I can't help but wonder how different things might've been if he'd done something like it at the time

Some of the early ideas we had for Halo 4 are still represented in the final product. That being said, I definitely took the team on a wayward path towards something very different. The team ended up shipping something more traditional, which I think was a good move considering that this was the team’s first Halo project together.

For better or worse, Halo 4 feels like a sequel to Halo 3, and that’s what I wanted to avoid. In fact, I wanted to change the game so much that we couldn’t even call it Halo 4. There’s a hint of that idea in Halo 4, but it’s not obvious…

If I could do it all over again, I would’ve fought hard to not make Halo 4 as it shipped or this innovative, forward-thinking Halo game we dreamt up. I would have remade Halo: CE internally at 343—for Xbox 360 or Xbox One—and made it a faithful, unbelievably beautiful, well-designed remake that would teach the team how to ship together, how to work within this engine, and how to earn respect from the fans. We should have done that before creating something wild and crazy.

[empty bloom]

Yeah, that tracks.

It's honestly how I would've handled it if I were in his shoes. As loathe as I am to do remakes or remasters.

[unique rune]

Yeah, as much as I'm kinda against a CE remake it feels like something that'd make a lot of sense

And probably work out better than the clunky CE PC reskin that Anniversary ended up being

[empty bloom]

It's just clunky now? How generous.

Obligatory "Trenchbird is infuriated that Halo CEA on the original Xbox 360 is the only Halo with a codex feature-and it's locked behind a freaking Kinect" statement.

[unique rune]

I was trying to be very nice about it

[empty bloom]

Fair

[obsidian thistle]

Its unfortunate the feature or idea has only really seen "some" expansion via Halo Wars 2

[minor sky]

Yeah that actually makes a lot of sense

Do you have a link to the article?

[unique rune]

One moment

here
https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-complete-untold-history-of-halo-an-oral-history/

[hardy swan]

Yeah their only ship that can take down cruisers are the ones they refitted with the Infinity Macs

Then You have to think about why they spent all that R&D on a new energy based weaponary when the sarissa class Mac is superior

Okay to be fair the valiant class is like 1.5 kilometers and the mulsane is a frigate

[hardy swan]

I enjoyed Clone Wars let’s be real

[versed helm]

insert Clone Wars outro music

Loved that show to the end

[minor sky]

Thanks!

[minor sky]

I think part of that is Jul 'Mdama's Covenant being kind of mishandled

I think it would've been cool if Jul's faction started out in Halo 4 as a small fleet of Zealots, barely important to the UNSC. Then over the course of the trilogy/saga/whatever Jul 'Mdama gains more and more power

Getting other splinter groups join his fold (be it from viewing him as someone with divine powers from the Didact himself, or by force), building his reputation more and more, eventually becoming a major player in the conflict on Sanghelios, ect.

I think it would've been cool to play up Jul's more manipulative side/televangelist-energy. Being someone who is able to gain sway over those who are desparate or left behind after the war.
And after gaining access to more and more Forerunner artifacts/getting the street-cred of having met and served under The Didact, his power only grows.

[tired peak]

G...g..go...od...Good soliders, follow orders

[minor sky]

If the UNSC just understood how to properly mass produce an army of clones they wouldn't have had to kidnap a bunch of kids

[wintry sleet]

Maybe one day they'll mass produce master chief clones

[minor sky]

Wouldn't put it past them

[fair hazel]

That's still a life of a person. Publicically the UNSC couldn't do stuff with clones

[carmine sleet]

Yeah I don't get why people think just cloning people makes it completely fine. You're still making an army of people through unethical means

And those people have less agency in their purpose in life because they're created specifically to fight wars

[hardy swan]

damn reminds me of Plo Koon and his exchange with those two clones

[vagrant ocean]

And it violates the Mortal Dictata I’m sure.

[carmine sleet]

Most likely

[minor sky]

I was just making a joke, I doubt the UNSC would be able to get away with it without a few crimes against humanity, especially with ONI's track record

[vagrant ocean]

I’d argue the Spartan-II program was the least unethical way the UEG handled the Insurrection.

[minor sky]

"We did it boys! We nuked the colony and beat out the insurrectionists! And the death toll was only in the millions!"

[unique rune]

the least unethical way would’ve been to address the issues that led to the Insurrection

not kidnapping children and turning them into an elite hit squad lol

[minor sky]

Yes, but that would require the fine folks at ONI to grow a spine

And thats just nearly as fun as covering your ears and throwing as many troops as possible at the problem till it goes away

[unique rune]

Yeah there’s… I suppose we’ll call them “realistic” reasons for the way the UEG/UNSC dealt with the Insurrection but arguing that the child supersoldiers was the least unethical solution when in reality it’d just be like,

“stop being authoritarian”

lol
lmao, even

[vagrant ocean]

But is the Spartan-II program worse than what they did at Far Isle?

[unique rune]

nothing about that changes that the Spartan-II program is an ethical nightmare all on its own

[vagrant ocean]

But was it worse, that’s the question I’m asking.

[unique rune]

nuking a colony is bad and so is the whole child supersoldier thing for its own giant mess of reasons

making the argument that child supersoldiers is slightly not as bad as nuking a civilian population center doesn’t really make either option sound like the least ethical one

it just makes it sound like the Insurrectionists were completely justified in what they were doing

[carmine sleet]

They're both bad for different reasons

[unique rune]

Not that the Insurrectionists were doing things above board but holy crap your government needs serious reform if it’s
again

nuking civilians and kidnapping and essentially brainwashing children to become a secret supersoldier death squad

[orchid kettle]

In the Fall of Reach I think you're supposed to question how much of a threat the Innies even were when Blue Team is informed that they've known about Watts' hideout for years after the UNSC smashed his fleet to pieces earlier.

[stoic hamlet]

We still don’t actually know what happened at Far Isle, mind.

We have no idea on the context or the overall situation.

[orchid kettle]

Personally I think it would just feel cowardly if there was ever an attempt to try and justify Far Isle

[orchid kettle]

I think at this point Halo does more or less want you to just shrug and say "aw shucks, i guess violence is just inherent to human nature" without really exploring any of the nuance that's naturally going to come from like an imperial power exploiting smaller, poorer worlds

Like, one side can walk away and still be prosperous while if the other stops they only continue to toil in oppression and exploitation because the only rights that exist in this world have been fought and died for

[stoic hamlet]

Oh I don’t think it should be justified.

I’m just saying we know basically nothing about the event.

[minor sky]

Its like arguing which historical tyrant is worse. They're all bad, and claiming one was worse than the others just makes it seem like "oh these guys weren't so bad"

[vagrant ocean]

We know the UNSC purged the entire colony, and many say the bomber scene in Halo Legends is meant to be Far Isle.

[stoic hamlet]

They didn’t purge the entire colony. It was a single strike, per Empty Throne, but the rest of the colony fled afterwards.

Halo Legends’ visuals aren’t canon, even Cortana in the story itself acknowledges this. We can’t verify what or where the bombing was.

Or if it’s even “real”. It could be an extrapolation.

[orchid kettle]

the only canon thing from Legends is Odd One Out

Pluton is a Prelate Jiralhanae change my mind

[stoic hamlet]

Honestly i don’t think it’s that absurd.

If Oblivion is canon, I don’t actually see the issues with Odd One Out, at least roughly.

1337 isn’t canon, but like, that planet, the situation? It’s believable enough.

[orchid kettle]

You do have a T-rex and teenagers moving at supersonic speeds

[stoic hamlet]

I did say roughly :p

[versed helm]

He isn’t canon, but he’s the goat

[obsidian thistle]

I still kinda wish Odd One Out was a in-universe tv show

[versed helm]

Indeed

[minor sky]

I hope we get to see more Spin-off games in the future like Halo Wars 2. I think letting more devlopers make Halo games that aren't the usual fare/show a different aspect of the universe is a great way to expand the series appeal

Without having to screw with the main series

[carmine sleet]

Unggoy Farmer when

[sour raven]

Arent they usually nerds?

[minor sky]

Brain Age but with a Grunt as your teacher

[orchid kettle]

i just need this franchise to live long enough to get a Halo XCOM spinoff

[unique rune]

society would be better if Starfighter was real

[empty bloom]

I wonder if Windfall was originally going to have something to do with Halo Starfighter's development.

[minor sky]

Starfighter would've been so cool

[vagrant ocean]

I’d have another game to use my flight stick with.

[minor sky]

I think it'd be kind of cool to see games set in eras beyond what we've already seen.

The Insurrection, Early Covenant, Forerunner era, or hell- the wars that took place when humanity was just beginning to colonize planets

[vagrant ocean]

A Contact Harvest game or something similar would be good. Start off fighting Innies then Covies.

[fast heron]

What do you think banished skimmers, skirmishers and humans would do to prisoners?

[versed helm]

I don’t think they’d harm prisoners most of the time, because if someone is being taken prisoner by the Banished they have something to offer, at least to a higher up. However, I’d bet my bucks on the fact that these banished personal abused the prisoners any way they could when the chance arised, non-human species more so than human.

[fast heron]

Nearly all of the other species ate them, they didn’t care about prisoners lol

[versed helm]

Welp. Thats the end of that.

[fast heron]

I do wonder what those 3 would do tho

Just curious

Food for thought lol

[versed helm]

At least on Zeta, they’d tie up people in with those energy coils, at least for sometime.

[fast heron]

Prob until they were transferred

[versed helm]

Skirmisher’s would probably eat them the first chance they got😭

[fast heron]

Now the real question, skimmers and humans

I feel like humans would prob hunt them

Maybe some cannibles

Idk about the skimmers tho, lack of knowledge about them lol

[minor sky]

An idea for what those games could look like-
Insurrection: Rainbow Six style tactical shooter. Make it extra gritty/mature to give it some more weight
Early Covenant: 3rd person action game. Getting to use an Energy Sword or Gravity Hammer in that context could be really cool.
Forerunner: RPG, just because of how damn huge that era is. Probably the best genre for getting across characters of that nature.

Interplantary War: idk. I think an FPS would work well, but not necessarily a Halo FPS. I'd hate to just say "Make it like CoD", because I think an era like that would benifit from a more unique gameplay style. But ig CoD would be the ideal starting place

[versed helm]

I don’t read much into them. All the notes I’ve taken down on them is: A) they’re annoying in almost every aspect. B) they’re atrocious Rocket launchers but incredible commando users LMAO. C) too many dang dynamo grenades

[minor sky]

If the skimmers show up again, I hope they're much more refined

[fast heron]

Lol

[minor sky]

They are "fine" as is, and have some decent personality. But nothing about their gameplay is exceptionally great

[fast heron]

I know their a part of the endless, I do wonder sense the harbinger is now dead maybe they will also die off?

[empty bloom]

I hear skimmers taste like calamari.

[hardy swan]

I guess the HCW solved that by having countless orphans to take in instead of kidnapping

[stoic hamlet]

Both are terribly unethical, guys.

Let’s not try and have a contest over which is more or less.

lol

[vagrant ocean]

The IIIs were arguably worse considering the logic behind using orphans is that no one would miss them.

[hardy swan]

I mean… they are orphans

[vagrant ocean]

And there’s what they did to Gamma company.

[stoic hamlet]

Well, on a technicality, Kurt had to convince everyone else about that.

That wasn’t suggested by Ackerson or Parangosky.

That doesn’t make it better, mind.

But it should be said

[vagrant ocean]

Let’s create 300 child super soldiers and then permanently alter their brain chemistry to constantly produce rage inducing hormones, making them a massive liability in the field unless they take antipsychotics.

Great friggin idea.

Good job mister Treveylan, you really helped out humanity.

[stoic hamlet]

Uhm, ackshully, it was 330. Smh

[vagrant ocean]

Give me your lunch money.

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf to him, though, I can’t say I blame him. (And from what we’ve seen it’s not nearly as debilitating as it was originally implied).

[hardy swan]

It was only Gammas with that right

I still think it’s a dumb idea

[stoic hamlet]

Weirdly, subsequent lore has just made it both more understandable and less alarming, which I don’t think was the intention, but, you know…

I mean yeah, it’s not really smart, but Kurt was wracked by grief.

[hardy swan]

Like why would they go deep undercover missions behind enemy lines if they go crazy without some juice

[stoic hamlet]

That’s not really on Kurt.

That’s just Denning/343 (and in-universe Osman)… just kinda… honestly I don’t even know what they were thinking, lol

Even ignoring the smoother issue, that kind of mission makes no sense for a Spartan III.

Honestly even a II I would be suspect.

[hardy swan]

They had to look like normal humans though

[stoic hamlet]

Which the III’s (especially the Gammas) don’t.

They’re roided up, baby faced children with no social skills.

[empty bloom]

With fanfics, it's OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND

[stoic hamlet]

When you have the IV’s as an option, they just make way more sense. For example Dinh was a Section III field agent. He’d make more sense for that kind of role than Saber would (though, still not really, not his skillset).

[empty bloom]

Also, no Spartan gen does. Not even the IVs. The issues start with them being 7 feet tall.

Though, that said, with the advent of Janissaries...

[stoic hamlet]

It’s a thing where it only works retroactively because Janissaries exist.

…but even then…

[empty bloom]

I dunno. I kinda would love a situation where a squad of armored Jannissaries are about to go on an op, only for the guy who has secretly been an embedded IIIB the entire time to start snapping necks.

Sure, he's wearing Boggart, but piezoelectric myomers don't care.

[frigid heart]

Perfect killers

[hardy swan]

Boss baby

I wonder how those Banished Mjolnir rip offs compare

[dusk jetty]

I like that

I think a story like what everyone thinks halo 5 is with two squads, one Spartan, one janissary, that leads to a confrontation at the end has potential

[hardy swan]

||James did kill a bunch of them||

[hardy swan]

It has to be Ilsa Zane

[dusk jetty]

Ilsa Zane and Spartan Thorne

Absolute cinema

[spark pivot]

ngl thorne would be great to see come back (and wearing some new kit bc by now he's definitely graduated from recruit)

[wispy pewter]

he's literally the fireteam leader